Future Projects and Closing Thoughts

Greetings. And welcome to House of R, a Ringerverse Podcast on the Ringer Podcast Network. I'm Mallory Rubin. She's Joanna Robinson. Friend of the Pod Month would not have been complete without Jason fucking Mansukas. Let's go. I'm setting the tone. We're getting this done. Shorty'sy style. Shorty reference right away. I love it. Would you say he's the friend of the pod? This is their last friend of the pod month episode. Oh, am I the last? Oh wow. What an honor. You are a I'm honored to crowning achievement. Yeah. Well, to do a sports reference. We both made a baseball reference by. the D wayid I went well I went with closer which I think is slightly more appropriate than batting cleanup but I think it's promise is that you don't care for sports. I hate sports. Great. Here's my deal. Where's my camera? Right there. Right there. I hate sports. They're all yours. Not interested ringer.com. Yeah. Well, you've mentioned a hockey show. Yeah. And you've made a bad and cleanup reference. God damn it. I fucked it up already. I can't wait to see how you incorporate the NBA finals into the discussion today. Are they happening right now? And I don't know. I couldn't tell you which teams are in the NBA Finals if it's happening right now. You must have enough Knicks fans in your life. The Knicks? Oh, I know the Knicks are a thing. Oklahoma is City. Yeah. Thunder. That's right. Wow. Um they're doing don't don't. Joanna, don't. I know you're a Spurs. You're a Spurs fan because of Wemby. Because Wemby is a fantasy literature nerd. So Spurs are a part of your life because of Wemby. I do know that Wemby showed up to a game wearing a garment last night. He did? That's all I know. He sits down in the locker room. He reads like Brandon Brando Sando, Brandon Sanderson. We're gonna talk about all that. We're gonna talk about season one of Spider Noir. We're gonna talk a little freerin. You're gonna recommend some other anime to us that you think you should check out. Honestly, I don't really know what we're gonna talk about today. I have no children and things are going great. Your home. This is where you belong. I'm thrilled to be here. Can't wait to get into it. We will do that right after this. Do do do do do . This episode of House of R is presented to you by Target. Callin' All Trainers! The Pokemon and Target collection celebrating 30 years of Pokemon is almost here, and the lineup is kind of incredible. A few are sure to be fan faves, Pokemon starter jackets, mystery water type Pokemon bottles, and even caboodles. Woo! Which feels perfect. Because Pokemon has always been about sharing the adventure. And Target is bringing fans together to celebrate that spirit. The first drop is in store May 2nd, online May 3rd, with the second drop, June 6th. ExploreNow at Target.com. This episode is brought to you by Spectrum Business. Fast, reliable internet means everything for your business. And even this podcast. That's why I trust Spectrum Business. They keep companies of all sizes connected with internet, advanced Wi-Fi, phone, TV, mobile services, plus 24-7 US based support. Millions of business owners already trust Spectrum Business. So visit spectrum.com slash business to learn more. Restrictions apply, services not available in all areas. Programming reminders. Yeah. Quick ones. What's coming? Next week, 2026 summer hype meter, which let's just say it. Quickly take people behind the curtain here. I'm gonna be in Sweden next week. I will not be in the country. We thus recorded the 2026 summer hype meter. Not a day early, not half a day. Four days ago. A full week early. Yeah. Multiple trailers have been released since we recorded it, which we know is already been stale. There are illusions on the podcast, like, hey, they're probably gonna drop a House of the Dragon season three trailer, aren't they? Hey, we'll probably learn something about X-Men 97 season two. Won't we guess where all of that happened? Don't worry about it. I think the pe I think the order remains the same. Our innocence is preserved in amber. There you go. Was there any kind of um well, Mal, I'll just ask. How well behaved were you in the hype draft? Uh you know, I'd say that I have mellowed in my old age. Oh I think. Yeah. I think that I you know I I unarmed. You didn't go after anybody or take it personally? Well this is a the meter. The meter is calm. In the hype draft, I think I was pretty well behaved this year. On the big pick uh Star Wars draft recently, I was well behaved for I'd say eighty percent of it. And then when I was any of the clips I've select ing, I was not allowed at the end of the real issue. Which is like ludicrous. And then it replaced. Of course he is. What are we talking about? You tried to draft 3PO R2 D2, absolutely. Well, I tried to do R2 and 3Pio both. And then I tried to make the case for both. Then I tried to do MetaClorian as I had a kid's father. And then I actually had to dig Shmi. It was a whole thing. I had waited until the the last round. Oh God. Let me let me throw this one nugget at you. How many of our podcasts are we gonna spend relitigating all of them? Did anybody get Cobb Vanth? Uh well it's funny you should mention that because then Joanna and Damon Lyn Lindelof and I did on our Mando Grogu primer a mini draft, a duos draft, Star Wars Duos draft. And 3PO and R2 were just waiting for me in the fourth round. But I didn't take them, I think because of PTSD. Yeah, that's the thing. And then ended up at the Fair Better drafter got them. I don't know if something happened. So much R2 and C3PO and then one the vote . I had won four drafts in a row across podcast. Oh, but you're not keeping drag. But I've lost a couple in a row. And I think it's good. It's good for a while. Oh, you think it's good to be humbled? It's good for me to s to s you know, to stay in tune with my limitations. You were very cool about me winning that. I think you cried. You crushed it. You crushed it. You crushed it. It's easier to lose by like 70%, which is what happened. Then I the what I have a hard time with is if I lose by like two percent and I then actually though I did tell you I couldn't sleep for two nights after the drum was true. Why? She's doing fine. She's doing fine. What were you what were you because of the three pio? Because I took R2 and C3Pio out of the five. I had taken hair on and and Canaan as my love interest, which is a pick I love but like you were not gonna do that. And so they would have made it back to me on the turn. Wait a minute. Well you took you took them as your love pick instead of the Duchess Satine and Obi. Obi was off the board because I had taken him and Adakin and it was all but just it had all gotten away from me. I got Han and Leah in the first round and then it was just kinda over for honestly. So that's pretty good. But I do think the Canaan and Hara is dinosaur they would have been there for me at the end. Instead, I had to pick Cad Bane and Commanth at the end of the yeah. As a romantic couple? No. By the way, we all we all want it. We're shipping that. Comvant with anything, honestly. You know, their their first meeting was very flirtatious. There's some crack ling energy there. Oh, yeah. I think. It's electric. Who who doesn't love a slow saunter? What about a little out of the distance? A healing fuck in the Bakta tank? Why not? Oh yeah. When Cadbane and and I'm gonna say this. It's not like fucking in a hot tub, but it''ss b bad. Itad for you. You be get a bunch of chlorine up in there. You're gonna you're definitely gonna need antibiotics afterwards. But yeah, you're a bacta tank, so it's all healing in real time. It's almost like getting stabbed by a lightsaber. It's cauter izing. You know, the damage and the healing are taking place all at once. Smile Fred's review is getting fucked in the back today. Why not? I would try it. I would try it. I would try to say anything once. I would try it at least once. I'm so glad you're on the record. Yeah. That's the pull quote. Let's try it. Fucking in the back to tank at least once. If the back to tank is rocking, don't come knocking. When or sloshin'. When Cobb anth showed up in that episode, um, uh not rather, rather, when Cad Bain showed up in that episode to uh to gunsling with Cobb Vanth, when Cad Bain was walking through down in live action, I stood up and started screaming. You clapped. You cried. I cried. I la I was like, I it's can't be again. I'm at that point a 50-year-old man alone in my house screaming. I'm doing great. Yeah. Um I I boy, I wish we could have been on to talk about Maul. Uh I loved the pods about Maul. I loved Maul. It was so good. It was great. It was so great to be back with him. I loved all the cast of characters around it. I know we're not here to talk about Maul. We're here to talk about Spider-Noir, but I fucking loved Maul because all I want is smaller sel,f- contained stories inside this world. Get the Skywalkers out of there, man. Get these fuckers out of here, man. The canon and out of the drafts. The Skywalkers, here's here's here's my larger. Hit us. The Skywal kers are the baby boomers it's time to go time to die it's time to go it's over you had your moment we're done with you yeah okay move on are you going to Gen X? Are you going to like is it Gen Alpha's time in Star Wars? Gen X simply does not want to be involved. As a as a proud member of Gen X, I'm shocked I'm even here. We'll have you back from all season two. Oh, but I would love it, please. We we can't wait for that show. I would love nothing more. Do you think that Spyb ot lives on in the clouds? Yes. Yeah. Okay. That was a good Sam. Sam Weber kind of told us as much. Yeah. Doesn't Spybot remind you of the assassin who wore the hat that looked like spybot. What was that guy's name? Yeah, that would be in just in Mantel in Mantel Rogo. Yeah. Yeah, Mbell. Yeah. Or some version of that. I have not seen Mandalorian and Grogu yet. So you could No, I and I am being honest, I would tell you. I I I anticipate not liking it, uh, in all honesty, or I anticipate having it you like and you'll have notes. I anticipate having a a struggle with it, but I also don't think it's for me. Here's the thing the stuff that I don't like about Star Wars, and I love all Star Wars. Boy do I am I so happy we're still in these stories. Yeah it's not for me. But what I love, I love. And when it fails. And malls for you. Mall dynamite. Loved every goddamn minute of it. Yeah, fantastic. Same. Same. Can't wait for season two. I love Star Wars animation. What else is coming up? Hype Meter is Tuesday, I think. And then you will be doing at the end of the week a Lest at primer with some friends. Fictional bands. Fictional bands. Yep. Love this. Rishi Heroway and Jess McKenna are coming to talk about fictional bands. I love this because that's and I'm gonna have a callback for that in a little bit. Oh, look at you. Are you an interview with the vampire watcher? I am not an interview with a vampire watcher, but you have gotten me so close so many times that I do feel like there's gonna come a moment when I don't have something that's one of my shows. Yeah. And I'm gonna be like, oh yeah, this. Give it a shit. And I'm gonna be obsessed. I can the way you talk about it, I know I'm gonna like it. You know, I just gotta get into it. I watched the first two seasons for Joe for gift swaps and made her watch Landman and Fire and Ash in Exchange Avatar. Welcome. Welcome to I I'm I'm out on Avatar, but boy, I'm all in on Land Man. Landman of Art Time. Especially because of season two. Did you watch season two? Are you aware that that Billy Bob's character fucks an omelet at one point? Yeah. Are you and are you aware of it? Very very point later. How literally are we talking about? Stick a stick's a stick in an oath. Yeah, it is pretty clear. No. I d yeah, I and we don't watch him. No, kind of to make a point. To make a point He's like, I put my dick in your omelet. It was his omelet. Yeah, it was his omelet. Yeah. Landman. Landman. To even try and explain it. You're like, wow, they really did it. They really did a thing. And I would say, if Landman season three doesn't feature Billy Bob in the car rolling calls more, I'll be furious. And they all have to do that. Because that's what 80% of season two is. Did we go to Michaels this season? Drunkenly go to Michaels, which was my favorite part as you know of season one when Ali Larder got drunk on Margaret and went to Michaels. No, they didn't. But where did they go? They did go someplace to do something with the old people again. Was it 'cause strip club was also a season. Yeah, they love the old people storyline and landman is so nuts. A lot of the old person focus of Landman though had shifted not only to the home front. Yeah. Yeah. But to the pool in the backyard . Yes. Sam Elliott getting like aqua therapy. Held by cradled. Yes, cradled by a woman in the pool. Who Billy Bob had found. I'm a bright one for you, I' backm in. You're back in. Oh, my God, resplendent. And he spends most of the season watching the sunset. Yes. The worst mistake they made had justified is when Sam Elliott showed up without the mustache. And you're like, what's the point? I quite agree. But you can't shave my mustache, you can. So you're gonna do the listat , then we're gonna have a disclosure day pod. Uh and then it's just basically House of the Dragon time after that. We'll have a couple other things, but we're not f Lestat premiere, of course. We're not far away from hot D season three. You excited? Not really. Oh boy. That's what we're hearing that's what we're on the street. All right. Did the trailer today did you watch the trailer today? I did not. Okay, I th I'm wondering if there will be an uptick in hype from today's trailing. Did uh Knight of the Seven Kingdoms make you more hype or less hype? Less hype. Because I enjoyed it so much for the simplicity of its storytelling. That again, kind of like what I'm talking about with Star Wars, inside of and I'm not a Game of Thrones reader, to be clear. So I am I exclusively understand it through the shows. Um and uh Knight of the Seven Kingdoms just crushed it. And then I went and listened to the audiobook of all of the novellas which uh were dynamite. Yeah. And made me so excited for the rest of it. House of the Dragon is so sprawling and so big, and it's just hasn't hooked me in the same way. I'll watch it. I'll get I'll get a round to watching it, but I will not be like, oh it's on. Boom, boom, every Sunday night or whatever. You know, like I'm I don't think it's gonna be dominant. Damn it. We'll see. I don'm holding it up. I feel the same about Lord of the Rings. Yeah. Rings of Power. Rings of Power, rather. Both of them have just lost me enough that it isn't like week to week I'm kept up. In other words, you know. I'll do it, but it's they're not like, ooh, I gotta get I gotta go. We have to start potting about Landman so that Manzucas keeps listening to listen. By the way, I still listen. I'm listening to you guys talk about you guys are spoiling shows that I'm then watching weeks later, but I don't care. I also don't care about spoilers. Yeah. I mean it must be hard in your your I'm not a I it's not f I don't You're an actor. Yeah, what's the point in the industry? It's the w what do we c we we're allowed to hear uh part of the reason I used to like watching stuff was because I would hear people describe it, or I would read a review that described it, or whatever. Like, I'm I should be allowed to know what happens in these things. I just don't understand. Like, for those of us who love to like read the book and then watch the thing that's based on the book, that's essentially a spoil. Like I it it doesn't change it for me. Yes, no. I mean, me neither. I think a lot of listeners feel differently about it. Oh, yeah, babies. Spoiler warning. Spoiler warning for today. All of Spider Noir season one. Because this dropped as a binge on MGM and then Amazon. So this is on Prime Video on Amazon, the whole first season. M GM, a real platform that exists. MGM Plus? Yeah. MGM Plus.. I've got it. Don't worry Two days before. Yeah, don't worry. I've got it for SAS Rogue Heroes. Yes. One of my all-time favorite Stephen Knight shows. You guys in CR love Rogue Heroes. I know that about all three of us. Have not seen the channel, baby. Oh, the Have not seen the show. Honor Scales. Oh, I I he was in the um the bingemess movie that I watched. Tom Blink Jodie. Tom Glencarney, your guy. That's right. It's really good. Yeah. It's a great cast and it the show is a blast. Maybe there will be Rokiro spoilers today. There will definitely be Spider-Noir spoilers because the entire season is fair game for our discussion today. Later today, we're gonna talk about Freerin. Yeah. Some so like I think that that because we have not finished, the spoilers will be a little lighter there. They spoilers will be more like premise. Here's what I'll say. And this is just true of anime. Yeah. They tell you the whole thing in the opening uh song. Yeah. Opening credit song is always like here's the story we're about to tell you it's singer that opening credit song. And every season it changes. Incredible. It's great. Incredible. So we're gonna talk about all of that today. What else might we spoil? What do you think? Oh I suspect we'll talk about the uh Spider-Verse movies. Yeah. So those will, I'm sure. All all of Spider-Man's, all of Spider-Man. Uh Comics Canon. Although uh I did I looked into Spider-Man or Spider Noir comics. There weren't a ton and I didn't dig too deep. If I'm being honest. So no Spider Noir comics. Yeah. We don't have to worry about any comics canopy. Sadly, I would have loved something that had a heavier comics lift to just to talk comics. But uh but I didn't find much that was super compelling. Okay, let's get to it. Let's swing into Spider-Noir , season one . What is your history with this character? Jason, let's start with you. So it is simply from the Spider-Verse movies. Truly. This was my introduction, as I suspect it was for all of us, you know, or for most people. Um, and I loved it. Loved the what a great character establishment in that first movie to to all of the characters to be introduced to that that group of characters and then have one of them be not just a noir black and white all the archetypes and tropes of a noir story, but have it be voiced by Nick Cage, who is maybe for me, pound for pound, one of the most interesting, most bizarre, most captivating actors that we have. You know, you know, I do a podcast called How Did This Get Made and for fifteen years we've been covering terrible movies that are so bad you have to watch them. And when I tell you we've done probably twenty Nicholas Cage movies. Run of time where he was trying to pay off his massive debt where he did like five VOD movies a year. And we covered a lot of them. Season of the Witch. We're talking the Wicker Man. Although that's not exactly just for money, but you know, there's a ton of seasons. There's a ton you've never heard of that that Nick Cage did. Um speaking of, can I can I tell my origin story with with Jason? Of course. Oh yes. We've never parted before that's right. The three of us have potted. I was working at Vanity Fair and I got a pitch to talk to Jason Manzucas, who is one of my favorite podcasters, because I was an absolute how did this get made obsessive? And but like you're trying to be a professional journalist, right? So Jason gets on the line and I'm just interviewing him about the project that he was working on and, I didn't say anything about being a fan of yours because I was trying to be like cool and professional. Meanwhile, I'm like internally freaking out. And then right towards the end, Jason's like, I just want to let you know, Joanna, I listened to your podcast. And I was like, I listened to your podcast. And he was like, too late. I said it first. There you go. Now it just sounds like you're saying it as I said it. And I was like, God damn it. Anyway, so that's that's the first time I talked to you. And that was your um was that that was the first time I think I heard you was the Dave Chen uh Cast of Kings podcast that I listened to all the time. Yeah. During that many years ago. This is that many years ago. Yeah, yeah. And then I think and then we met at ATX festival. Because I was moderating that league, building panel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh and then you're like, Can I hug you? And I was like, Yes. Anyway. Really great. Here you are. And here we are podcasting together. It only took about Spider Noir. Yes. It only took another twelve years probably to get us here. Thanks. Thank you, Nick . Thank you, Nicolas Cage. Yeah. What can't that man do? Uh I mean quite a bit actually. And that might have a man. But and and we I think we found some of the limitations maybe. Yeah, we might have. Do you feel like in the scene in the inside of the show when he is in the movie theater eating a hot dog watching uh James Cagney , do you and like just muttering the lines back? Um which we later found out is how he learned how to be human again after being bitten by man spider or whatever it was. Yep. Do you feel like that's just documentary footage of Nick Cage at the movie? I'm certain he made them do the whole made him make make sure we're watching this scene. He is so there's a great it might be Vanity Fair. It might be one of the magazines that does the you know uh an actor breaks down their roles. Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah. Um and he did one this, is some years ago, but and he's going through and what's wonderful about Nicholas Cage is like he's such a chaotic and crazy and unpredictable actor in all of the best ways and frankly all of the worst ways. Um, but to hear him talk about his process for so many of these bananas characters, you are like, oh, there is not just a method to his madness, but there is madness to his method. Yeah. You know, like it is fascinating. to watch I very much think people should watch it just to get insights into the fact that he's talking about like, you know, whatever movie crazy, dumb, you know, gone in sixty seconds or con air, but he's like talking about breath. A couple classics. But even like it could happen to you. And he's like, Well What was the quote he had that was making its way around about this? I think it was from the Esquire feature. And he was like seventy it's seventy percent Humphrey Bogart, thirty percent Bugs bunny. Yes. That's great. I believe was the first one. Oh, it's in there, absolutely. Not not to say like uh cite multiple interviews I did when I worked at VF, but I uh one time I did interview Nicholas Cage about some terrible VOD movie that he made that no one saw. And I was ask because I'm me, I was asking him about comic books, but I think he thought because he was talking to a someone at Vanity Fair that I was like making fun of him for comic books, which of course I would never, I was genuinely curious to talk to him about comic books. And he's like, I'm not, I'm not just sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies and my glass of milk reading comic books all the time. And I was just like, First of all, I am that sounds great. But I was like, that's so specific. So you certainly are. Like you definitely are. But also that was not an insult to ask you about comic books . Tell L. Like I know this about you and I think it's cool and weird. But like yeah, he was like, I'm not sitting here with my tray of lemon cookies. And I was like, Well, we should all be sitting here with our cookies. I mean, I wish there was a tray of lemon cookies right now. I agree. So he's a lemon cookies guy. Sansa's a lemon cakes girl. It's amazing how much lemon-based zesty baked goods come up here on this podcast. Two exactly. Twice. Can you think of any others? We'll put one in here. We'll think of one by the end of the day. Comedy rule of three. Yes. Yeah. Joe, same for you. Spider-Verse, any other history with Spider-Noir as a character? Spider-Verse movies. Yeah, same. And I I think we all like it. It was such a I mean the Spider-Verse films in general, obviously just wonderful. We all we adore the two that we've gotten so far. Can't wait for the the third. I think that even by the standard of loving the first movie, Spider-Man, like really popped for people. Oh, I feel like, yeah. Especially, I mean, it's so fun to play with those tropes. It's so fun to be inside of when he's not in like in in the we'll talk about it in this show, but especially in that movie, in those two movies, it's a blast to have like a hard boiled, you know, uh detective roaming around and and and it he's perfect for it. Yes. And the idea in the Spider-Verse films of like put this mashup of fully realized, utterly specific, unapologetic comics energy, where you get this like tapestry of all these different figures who are there to be for 30 seconds, 75 seconds, whatever it is , the most diluted, distilled version of that comic's character. And then it's like, well, that was super fun. What will it be like over eight episodes of a standalone series built around this character, right? That's the question. So I remember when this was announced, I was like very hyped, genuinely very hyped, a lot of questions, which I think was where we all were for a little while. Opening snapshot overall take here. How did you actually, find season one of Spider Noir. Boy. Um, so speaking of bugs, Bunny, I I I I uh I found it it was it's a tough one for me because I there's a lot of stuff that I really liked and really enjoyed. Um for me, I will say it's a little bit of there is simultaneously somehow I made a note in here, too much going on and also not enough for me to do eight one hour episodes. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like I think it should have been a great movie. It should have been a movie and or a series of episodes that added up to movie length. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it should have been shorter and told a one one thrust of a story. Yeah. Uh there was too much going on, too many things, and it was also not enough of an understanding of what story I was being told. Right. So I was getting lost and and then I didn't get back into it and enjoy it. And there was I think great set pieces. There was a lot of incredibly fun stuff, great performances. Um I really enjoyed it, but I it wore out its welcome a little bit, and I'd say the second half , I found myself checking my phone a little bit or not as invested, I'll say. And I watched it, I should say, as a binge. I watched it all at once in within forty eight hours. Yeah. You know, I watched the whole thing. I I uh I did the same and I feel like it was a mistake. Like m perhaps the back half wouldn't have felt so tedious to me to a certain degree if if it had felt fresher and I wasn't like four hours into my experience already. I think the cast is incredible. Yeah, like to get Brennan Gleason here just like doubling it up, like incredible. Yeah, I was I was spoilers, right? I was excited and then sad because I was like, Lucas Haas finally gets to do something so cool and then he was gone. Winston. Jack Houston is addicted to uh us not seeing his beautiful face all the time, boardwalk empire. Uh realness. I know. Very similar kind of uh of a role. Yeah. Or an external for the role. Yeah. Lee Jun Lee has been like loved loved her in Babylon, loved her in Sinners, like she's on a real uh role in terms of stuff. So like Amy Aquino here, like absolute stage legend here for an episode or two to play the doctor. So like just an incredible Lamar Morris. I mean Lamorne is like Lamorne is the show for me, honestly at the end of the day fantastic well that's the show I I kind of am more curious about exactly you know yeah Lamor like however tired I got at the end I was always invested in what Lamar's care like what Joe Robbie Robertson was doing and also Janet Ruiz. Robbie and Janet like kind of were the show for me. Nick Cage is so fun. And then I feel like at the towards the back half, or I was just a little tired, um, it felt like uh any le ash came off of him. Do you know what I mean? Oh yeah. And I feel like he needs that leash on him. This is in order for us to enjoy. That's the thing I think. Because I will say if he without those moments of true bananas, Nick Cage. I think I might have liked it even less. I no no no I mean I think the physical like when he's like doing his spider shit. He's doing his spider shit. I loved that. Oh my God. It feels that's you know what? And I I wonder what you guys think about this. I kept being like, ooh, especially in those moments or in the moment where he in the flashback when he's like finds out the webbing is coming from his body, all the body horror stuff. I was like, ooh, I wish this, I wish they'd given Sam Raimi this. I wish Sam Raimi had been in charge of this property and this Spider-Man. Because boy, would that be interesting. Because I think Raimi, especially too, loves this era of filmmaking, loves this is this is Sam Raimi like when he's with the Cohen brothers. Yes. Era Sam Raimi. You know what I mean? Like there's a lot of this movie that has like Miller's crossing mapped onto it. You know, where Brendan Gleason is the Albert Finney character and Cage is the Gabriel Byrne character. Well he did Dark Man, which is like essentially a perfect. Right, exactly. And that I was like, ooh, I would love a Sam Raimi noir working with Nick Cage. That it would be very interesting to me because that I think would have made it feel a little bit uh more layered or deeper or something. A little bit it felt broad strokes at times. Like just noir broad strokes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I re I had a lot of fun with it. I watched it over a couple days, so I was able to space out the episodes a little bit, which I think maybe helped me avoid the feeling at the very end, like I was like, boy, I have to like get through this. Cause actually I think the back half of the season I actually enjoyed more than the front of the season. Like I think once we got some of the flashback clarity and then mostly when because I I loved Robbie and Janet so much, I think mostly when the three of them all got to really interact in the primary story together. That was just like such a treat and such a thrill. And particularly like when Nick Cage just went nuts in episodes seven and eight. Uh I I that was when I was having the best time and laughing the most. And I was like in the beginning of the season having a good time and enjoying it, but not laughing at the oddity and specificity of the performance as much as I had anticipated. Um, and so when some more of those like deliberate affectations started to surface. I was just like, I feel like I am watching the show that I thought I was gonna be watching the whole time. So I really enjoyed it. I had a good time. I think what you guys said about what you were saying about just the pace and the flow over the season, and like that's I I I I agree, Jason, with the the observation that simultaneously there was like a lot going on in terms of moving pieces and parts. But then you have a little bit of the like ubiquity of all of the fights are gonna end up being on like a street, you know, in the old timey city. And like just the I think the silver main part of it was a touch less inter esting to me than some of the other strands of the story. So when it all kind of like oriented around that at the end, even though I liked those episodes quite a bit. It felt a little small. I think some of it also is just the kind of 2026, we are all watching comic book adaptations for the millionth time, and like the, you know, you are like, okay, we're tombst we've been talking about tombstone coming in a movie this summer and here's tombstone, Sam Man again, et cetera. But that's just part of it. I didn't how small. I like I kinda liked it it felt small and like contained and like felt like it was shot on a studio back lot. Like I kind of liked to your point about mall like I just kind of liked that we were in this like very little world in this one mayoral race and this one you know like all this sort of stuff is contained um I think what was really tough for me in the back, I think here's here's what it was. Nick K Chun then leash off, as you point out, is like always an exciting time. This guy they got with love and respect to play megawatt was so aggrav ating to me. But why? Did you feel like he made big choices? That that he that couldn't be back . That I felt like you could not put both of those energies in the same uh stretch of episodes and for me to like vibe. Everybody needs to do that. everybody else needs to match them because they're they are very vividly in comic book. You know, they are in you know, not just comic book, but also the rat-at-tat 30s, 40s, noir. Yeah. I I had a hard time with him in his first couple episodes when he started to like be more fully incorporated into the main plot. I was like, oh, we're sticking with this guy. But I kinda loved it by the end, actually, because I don't know, there was just something so amusing about him, like the goodnight sweet prince Hamlet quote at the end. I was like, this is he was just Shakespeareing he was everywhere. Yeah. Fumbling Shakespeare the whole thing. Maybe that's what bothered me. He was misquoting Shakespeare and it was bothering me. But it's like amusing because he's a dipshit who thinks he's like, you know, finally got the literal around him. It just wasn't I thought it was amusing. And I like that he actually said to the other to like to to Flint, why are we listening to this guy? Which felt like actually a necessary story beat for one of the guys with powers to say, like, why I love Jack Houston, but tracking Flint's like loyalty motif versus the love story with cat versus the same thing. This is what I mean by like there's so much going on. Yeah. But I'm not really invested in any of it, nor do I understand nor am I clear who what they want me. What do they want me to feel? Like who do they want me are we repository for rooting for cat and uh Flint or Cat and Ben or Cat and Silvermane or Cat on her own? Or what you know, like and I was like and, I kept being like, is this cat gonna be is this cat Hardy gonna be Felicia Hardy? Is this person gonna be black cat? Is that what they're setting up here? I'm not sure. Yeah. Like there's a lot that I was like bringing com ics lore to it and trying to figure out, oh, are they trying to assemble this industry six with all these guys? Okay, no, not really. And then all the flashbacks for me were hurting, not helping. Same. Uh in a lot of ways. Yeah, yeah. Especially because it just became it it putting them all together as if they fought at the same time in the same war really put into stark contrast just how much the age difference is between these guys. You know, I mean like Jack Houston and that crew are however old they are, mid to late 30s. Yeah. And Cage is like mid-sixties. He's like 62 . So his like sort of floppy forelock flashbag wig wasn't all the work. Well you think that was a wig? Yeah, you think so? Oh no, that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Had you considered it? Perhaps that that's not as early. Huh. Interesting. You think Cage is wigging it up on this? That's interesting. Every day of his life, perhaps? Every time he leaves the house? The wigs were nuts. Particularly so in the what did they call it? The true hue? True hue color. Oh . Unbelievable. And the true hue. That's a good color. So much better in black and white. Did you guys watch black and white or color? I watched black and white, and then Mal and I talked about it. I went back in and watched the last episode a little bit of it in color just to like see what it looked like. I did the reverse. I watched a little bit of the first episode in color. Okay. Uh just because that's what it booted up initially. While I was trying to figure out how to make it stop, yeah, how to watch it in black and white. I saw I watched probably the first ten minutes in color. And I and and went to black and white and was glad I did because I felt like black and white really covered for a lot of stuff that I think I would have been even more aggravated by. Like the design on the he on the henches, the very you know, like your your tombstones, your megawatts, look so good in black and white. I thought they looked incredible. I think that's part of why I liked the show so much, is the black and white was just such a specific and immersive like visual choice. And it obviously helps heighten not only the comic book palette, like this book has been drawn in the specific way with this artist's intention, but also obviously the like this is a thirties noir story, this is a a crime story, this is a gritty uh pop your collar on your trench coat and we're gonna go s solve a crime into your point, Joe, like this neighborhood that feels like it has a sense of place and this is the club we go to. I thought that the black and white really heightened all of that effectively. And like even stuff like, you know, he's got the darker webs, the way that that looked in the black and white, the way that the war goggles. The goggles was such a good effect in black and white. Like the glow. Really simple stuff, like I thought played great in black and white. Like and helped, I guess, you know, plaster over some of the stuff that I think would have been just not as good or a little bit feeling like herky jerky. I wish they hadn't released it in color. Well why do you think that's what I was just gonna ask is like why do you think they did give people the choice? I I think people weren't gonna want to apply to black and white shows. I think there's I think there's a gener ational cutoff that does not watch black and white movies. They they won't because they didn't ever. And so those movies are old, you know, or whatever like old, old. Not like, you know, sort of old. Like imagine you're born in the year 2000, like a movie from the 40s, like to watch His Girl Friday or to watch Maltese Falcon or something is a crazy. I mean, these are the best movies ever made, but like a crazy thing to a kid. So I think they want those kids watching this thing. So they gotta put it in color, which is preposterous. Like it is against the entire ethos of the character. Yeah. And I think especially because the show is uh really trying to say this is gonna be its own thing. This like actually is this like wouldn't belong in the MCU. Right. And and we're not shying away from that. We're actually trying to like amplify and heighten that so that it feels like its own thing and its own distinct s uh flavor and energy , lean into that. Just say to people, if you want to watch it, you gotta watch it in black and white. That's how it's supposed to look. It looks amazing. The color, I wa I watched the, I did the same. I did the end of the season in color, and the the true hue at the end. And it was just, it was like not only not as um gripping it like looked kind of bad bad looked bad and looked like way cheaper yeah very cheaper yeah yeah really too yeah and it would get it it you know the the and it's uh I don't think it's successful as a movie necessarily, but Sin City to me was the movie that I kept thinking of. Um both the comics uh and then the movie adaptation because of that playing with the black and white like that with this kind of no ari storyline. I really I was like, ooh, I wish this had a little bit more of the grittiness that Sin City had. Sin City just had. Like I just wish there had been more it it felt a it felt very clean. Oh yeah. You know, in a way that I was like, oh I where's the grime? Where's the grit? I wanted a little bit more of that. Do you think on the grime grit front that you could get a syringe to go right through the soft spot of somebody's eyes. I thought that was I loved that moment. I and I wanted more that's a great example of a beat that I wanted more. And I loved specifically that Robbie did it. Yes. That it wasn't during a fight that Ben thought to do it. I loved that consistently throughout Ben is bad at being Spider-Man. You know, and that was satisfying. I think it was smart a smart movie. And I love like even so when you're watching his spider fight and fumble around or whatever, that's its own you know, and there's all this meta commentary of like, does he still have it? He's still got it, like all the sort of stuff like that. But when you're watching Nick Cage fight, I was like, I like how believably like sort of shambling and effortful it was for him. Like I really liked that. Hit the sweet spot of enhancing where this character is and the fact that he's been struggling with who he wants to be, the loss, the pain, the age, all of it. The like the fact that he's embracing inverting and embracing with no power comes no responsibility. That's the thing he's championing. Without running a foul, it never tipped into De Niro and the Irishman. Where you're like, Oh bro, wait no, this just actually doesn't look like a thing to me. Oh boy. No, I agree. Yeah. It was great. Um, on the Nick Cage front, what else do we want to say about Nick Cage 's Ben Riley? The spider. I I want to say this. One of my favorite things that happened throughout, like, I and love this in any sort of private eyes show. Uh, this is like a classic Veronica Mars setup, is um, I have to weasel my way into something, so I'm just gonna like pretend to be this, that, or the other thing. Yes. I just thought all of those sequences were really fun. And then he either I cause and that's so funny you said Veronica Morris because I wrote it in my as a gen X. I wrote it in mine is do is the is this Nicolas Cage's fletch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was like, every time he has to get into a knock on a door or do something, he's not doing it inexplicably. He could be Ben Riley for all these interactions. No, no. These people don't matter to the story. But he's still like, I gotta get into your apartment. I guess I'm the plumber. And I was like, this is and you know that this is Nick Cage showing up and being like, I'm doing this one like this. There's a great story about him getting cast in Green Hornet, the Seth Rogan Green Hornet movie, and insist to play the villain that uh eventually Christoph Waltz plays. But um Nick Cage said, I will only do it if I can do it with dreadlocks and a Jamaican accent . And Robert Batterson is like, I'm gonna bring this energy to He's like, I saw what Gary Oldman did in True Romance and that's gotta be me. I think Pattinson is cribbing off Gary Oldman and Nick Cage one hundred percent. Absolutely. I mean what a beautiful, what a beautiful student. What a Venn diagram of madness. I love it. The accent, like the RPA. Whatever our Pats is doing, whatever accent, whatever new voice he's using in every project is so exciting. Specifically, he shows up, uh, I forget which one it is, but he shows up and he does the Betty Davis, what a dump. And it made me laugh so hard. And I was just like, I feel like Nick Cage is just like, I'm gonna cite this, I'm gonna do this 1949 Betty Davis movie line right now. it He does throughout. He references stuff throughout when he says uh when he references wait, what movie does he reference and say it's still in the it's still playing right now? Maltese Falcon. I can't remember what movie he says. It's in it's actually in theaters right now. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, he is just, it's that, it's that improv rule of um play to the height of your intelligence. Everything Nick Cage knows, Ben Riley knows. Right. Like he has complete film history. All that Turner Classic movies have to offer. Do you think they should give Nick Cage his own TCM show? One million percent. Absolutely. I would watch that. I mean, that's the move. Like, I want Nick Cage to have a movie podcast, a movie show, anything where he curates uh and and all I want is for Ben Manko is to try and corral Nick Cage. That's what I'm gonna say in talking about. It's gotta be Ben and Nick together. Absolutely. And Ben just like sweating and like pulling his collar open as he's trying to wrangle it. As they're trying to introduce asphalt jungle. It's like when um I forgot what was the name of the movie he did with Petra Pascal? The like Yes. Not dream scenario. A bearable weight of massive talent. Yeah. A bearable weight of massive talent. When they're talking about the cabinet of Dr. Caligari and he's just like monologue about it. I'm like, this is just Nick Cage talking about a movie that he loves. Oh I love you know? Yeah. And it's just I would watch that Turner Classic movie show every day. Oh, a million percent. That would be a blast because he is so smart and so interested and interesting that all I wanna do is watch Nick Cage be curious about a thing and then execute on it. And that's what this at the best, that's what this has all over it. Is when he's doing Nick Cage stuff, when they let him lose it's electric and it's nonsense a lot of the time. The the crazy I'm a spider like spider crickety crackety crickety crackety was every worked for me every single time. And I was like, oh, I wish there was thirty percent more weird David Lynchy stuff going on. Like I kept being like, oh, I wish I wish Werner Herzog or Lars von Trier directed this. I wish this was weirder is what I kept wanting. I kept wanting it to be actually as weird as Nicolas Cage. Yes. Rather than Nicolas Cage seeming like the weird thing. The weird thing in this slick uh noir pasties. That's why I wound up uh talking myself into more megawatts, actually. Yeah. So that everyone is megawatts, everyone is in the right moves. But yeah, when he's like, you know, getting drunk, getting plastered at the bar and after the bigger incredible sequence he is describing their appendages are rather like straws. Veritable party whistles. You know, it's like this is co caine. This is amazing. The director of the last two episodes, Greg Yatanis, who did some House of the Dragon, Presumed Innocent. And I really liked that he brought a lot of he did a lot of like comic book uh you know painting of of the action. And then that fight, that bar fight is for a lot of it a wonder. And it it's like a lot of wonders. I'm like, all right, we get it. But I thought that one was really good. Well that I thought it was really good. I agree. And and not all the fight choreography worked for me, but this one did. And especially because it had the it's just the entrance. The entrance of him being in the being in the bar and these guys come in, they blah blah blah. And then him just f following him out. Yeah. And then he puts the thing on. Then he walks back in. It's clearly him still. It's obvious to everybody that this is the guy who was just in here. And then the fight unfolds. Yeah. That just that little setup of him being like, knowing he's gotta put the mask on, but he's gotta drunk that was dynamite. And all Nick Cage being drunk acting, I'll watch forever. Or being on drugs acting, I'll watch forever. Oh, Mandy every time. So the the of like he has to enter a place and do something very audacious kind of for no reason. I think my favorite example of that was because you know he goes he needs to get into his own apartment to get his suitcase. So he's like he grabs the mop and he does it an extra degree, but like he does have to pretend he's there with maintenance sample treatment. Okay. When Dr. Faber catches him looking through the files in her office, and so he has to pretend he's a patient. Now he does need a cover story for why he is behind her desk in the office. But the voice . Yeah. The specific story. Oh. The number of times these like floor-floor two. Yeah. Down on floor two. I gotta make sure Google map it for me. Like it was just a thousand. It's so crazy. And what's so weird about it is that's Nick Cage. Humphrey Bogart would never do this. James Cagney would never do this. This is Bugs Bunny. This is the Bugs Bunny. You're right. But my fav favor myite I mean, I'm hopping head or whatever. But what Lamar Morris, who again, like every single second, so good, when he gets to do not just like a Nick Cage impression, but a Jimmy Cagney as Nick Cage impression. So funny. Like I hope he had the best time of his life doing it. Some of my favorite scenes were Nick Cage and the little kid Frankie. Oh Frankie. Yeah. Frankie is executing like straight up little rascals energy throughout. And I was like, give me more of this. Yeah. Give me more of the like little kid street or change. Yeah, that was killing me. Frankie and Janet. I would also watch a Frankie Janet spin-off just with their laptop. Just them tutoring. Yeah. Incredible. Let's let's talk more about Janet and let's talk more about Robbie and Frankie. If you like the the supporting characters, the supporting heroes, because we're gonna hit villains separately. Yeah. This was the high this was definitely the highlight of their own boy wouldn't it have been great if the office with them was the hub, was the center of the story? Hope for season two. Like because we end with Riley and Ruiz investigations. I'm like, uh, you know, and I'm like, okay, Robbie's got a paper to run, and that's a that's a large job. So I hope his paper goes on. But I was like, I just want the three I was thinking a lot about I've been bringing up Perry Mason a lot on podcasts for some reasons, but Perry Mason, it's Perry Mason, Della Street, His Girl Friday, essentially, and then Paul Drake, his investigator. And so three of them. And I was just like, that's the setup here. It's just like, you've got your investigative journalist, and you've got your His Girl Friday who also like knows how to sachet into a police station and get everyone to do what she wants to do. And like I just I I love the three of them. And don't and if you're gonna do it this way, if you want one hour episodes or whatever and you want eight of them, don't make it one storyline. Case of the week. Make it either case of the week or every two episodes is a case. Yeah. You know, that's why I was like the Silvermane stuff. Even though I love all those performers, that was where I started to feel Silvermane isn't. Oh, you know what it is? It's and I wrote this down too. It is I had similar problems with this that I had with Daredevil, which was what is the story we're telling? You like, is it this these small pieces or is it this big piece? It felt again, both too much and not enough uh for me to understand what the story was and how to receive it. Yeah. In in terms of like For Joe, the Daredevil story was Bullseye Feeds a Cat. And it worked. And it worked for me. No, but this is the problem with the eight to ten episode seasons, because you know, we've been re-watching Buff y, or if you talk about Veronica Mars, both of both of those uh shows have mastered in the 22-24 episode season your Case of the Week for Veronica Mars or your monster of the week for Buffy, but then you've got an overarching big bad storyline that is just seated throughout exactly you know um and then or like you know beaver casablancas or like whatever is happening in the background is just sort of like dropped here, dropped there. You would get Silver Main like seated throughout, but he wouldn't you wouldn't need to like spend so much time with him in every episode. Now listen, I could listen to Brendan Gleason, yeah, who who has the best accent in the world, and I am obsessed with the fact that Donald Gleason sounds exactly like him, you know, despite not coming from a working class background at all. Um, I just think they sound delightful, but it was the balance was off. Yeah. Way off. The fighting is the point. It's what gives the whiskey its taste though. Yeah. All time live. It was a really good line. He had great stuff. It just was he wasn't uh it wasn't a compelling enough story to maintain a singular villain for eight one hour episodes who didn't himself have a story of his own. Yeah, and we're the kingpin has a more sub stantial storyline. Vanessa. Vanessa. Especially because of the grip on power in the city, that is a really interesting comp because like I of course cared about uh race. You were thinking about Spencer Power. I cared about unfortunately we all are right now. I was, you know, of course, invested in how Ben was gonna navigate Silvermane and how Kat was gonna na but I didn't about the may oral politics and the money in the back room and all that stuff. I don't even know who he's running against. Yeah. I mean right, and there are the he's named at the end, the guy who they could vote for the actor. Michael Kostroff, who's the from the wire. Like I love him, and I thought he did a great job with his like wire room glasses and his and his vest and his like ah my mayor like I loved all that but yeah the whole story it's not it's not it's not relevant to us enjoying this at all. And and in fact could all go away and the streamlined version of this street level Spider-Man story would be so much more satisfying. Spider-Man shouldn't be concerned with the mayoral race in a lot of instances. For the most part. I mean, truly. What I will say though is that I was worried because you know , when we when we meet Ben Riley and we find out about Welcome to the Dead Wives Club Ruby. Yes. Um, and he has like hung up the mask, he's not doing it anymore. I was worried about the whole like surf Dracula uh question, right? You know about the Surf Dracula thing, right? Which is that that like tweet of someone wrote about how like you you make a show called Surf Dracula and then you spend like 10 episodes before we finally get to see Dracula Surfing, and it's like I was like how long are we have to wait to see him Spider-Man and we did not have to wait that long and that that for that I was really grateful. But like because he's hung up the mask we don't get a lot of those like this is the foe I'm fighting this week, you know what I mean? Because he's not in that mode, but in season two, he could It suffers a little bit from there's like a rule in improv , which is we're improvising a scene together, so don't play someone who doesn't want to be here. Don't be some be you one of it's just a surefire way to have a hard scene. If the person's like, I gotta go actually or I don't wanna be on this date, or you know what I mean,? wh Whateateverver it is. Um, want to be there, choose to be there. And part of it is he doesn't want to be Spider-Man, and all we want is for him to be Spider-Man, yeah. And so it's a bit of a tough lift for him to spend the whole season trying to get rid of this. Yeah. In a way that I'm like, no, I want you to want this. I want I understand the what's happened, but we haven't been privy to the story of Ruby and we don't know his origin story really, except for the broad strokes and which I'm fine with. But I want him to want to be Spider-Man because I want to feel as though that case of the week, that oh they're that person's being robbed because Spider-Man is street level, friendly neighborhood Spider-Man. That's his deal. It's not big, gigantic concerns. It is small neighborhood concerns. And that's what I love about also a noir, a detective, that is local. It is street level. You know, and that's great. The thing about his uh struggle with the spider identity and the the Ruby remorse and all of that that I act that I quite liked over the course of the season and when it kind of like culminated, what it brings us back to to Janet and and Robbie and those relationships because like that scene on the bench between Ben and Robbie, like when he when Ben is like, you know, I used to like it because like it felt good and now it doesn't. That was really interesting. And I thought that felt like a very, you know, kind of relatable and human note. Have all of us been uh uh bitten by a man spider while rescuing POWs and then became and doing it. Peter? I'm no longer Peter, I'm Ben Riley. I haven't had I haven't had the opportunity yet to be busy. Ben Riley is the name of the Spider-Man clone in the comics. Right. Which I was like, oh, are they trying to be that Ben Riley? But no, they're just like a new I've came out on a new idea. I did love, I will say, and I know we're jumping around, and I apologize, I'm part of the problem in that. But um I le I loved the moment where so much is going on that I feel like the s story that I really enjoyed the most, and and I know I said I didn't like the flashbacks, which I didn't like, but the moment where you realize Nicolas Cage is out just out of frame of the picture of all of them taken in uh in the war. Yeah. All of these guys who have superpowers uh were were captured and and blot liberated and and we find out oh Nicholas Cage was right there, just off to the side. That I thought was a great moment in a way that I was like, I wish that I guess more of his struggle had been this PTSD, all of it, his powers are related to the war. Their powers are related to the war. The war is not over. They've brought the war home. Right. What is that? You know, like how does that impact and influence whether or not he wants to be Spider-Man? Because part of being Spider-Man is always connecting to this central trauma of what is new modern monstrous warfare. You know? That was interesting to me, less so than even Silvermane or other things. Uh and but it was again so mushy uh with all the other stuff. Yeah. I think too because the so the the gang of of villains, you know, Silverma Sil Silver man's henches. They're like one of the things we learned in the season is that they're on this clock, right? So their power is manifested much later. This is that recently have come to the fore for them, and it means they're gonna die. And that's why they need the antidote that Faber tries to make from his liver. Yeah. Is this where your liver is, by the way? Because he was bleeding from like I don't think I don't think that's where the liver is. But I don't know. Maybe that's how you access it if you're an evil side. I'm not in tractist s. I'm not a turnus. In in the sixty six universe, that's where everybody's liver is. Is that what this one is? I can't remember what what number universe we have . Everybody's organs are all jumbled up. It's entirely, but I mean certainly the the man spider. I mean it's God. It's everywhere. Big time. Um, but yeah, and so the fact that this thing that he like has come to really resent, you know, he has these powers, but they weren't enough to save his love, and so he doesn't want to use them at all. He doesn't want to help people anymore. It does it just brings them despair. That's the thing that's gonna maybe spare these other guys from their feet. Those are really thematically rich strands of the story that I agree. I wish we had spent like a little bit more time there. The thing about the flashback that I think is just difficult in 2026 like modern superhero TV movie life to not do when you're watching it is like you can't I don't I'm like you can't not think about like Bucky and Hydra just the similarities of the like, hmm, you are a POW, we took you, we experimented on you, we turned you into this thing. Yeah. And so then, like, I don't know, I think most of the show felt so ely and utterly unique that the parts on the origin story beat that feel a little bit more reminiscent of another thing. I I wrote in my notes like three episodes in and I was like, they're not doing an origin story at all. How refreshing. And then they're like, JK, we're doing it as a flashback. It's so hard to resist the pull. But I feel like most of the times when somebody resists the pull, it works out, you know? We know Spider-Man. I mean that was the whole joke, joke of Spider-Verse. They're like, yada yada yada, this is what happened to me. And it was like it's played for laughs. Then here we have like a dramatic, surreal flashback. I mean, even in homecoming, we never, you know, we get the illusions to it. Like when you can do what I what I can and you don't and the bad things happen, they happen because of you, but we we never we never see it all for the bigger spider or a man spider bit you. We get it. Would you rather be bit ten by a radioactive spider? Yes. Yeah. Or a man spider. Yes. A radioactive spider. For sure. A little spider that I can then crunch. The man spider is terrifying terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. Which I we enjoyed and I also felt like there wasn't enough there wasn't enough like uh uh like weight given to like what the fuck? Like yeah. Everybody should have been what's going on and everybody's like, okay, so this guy who's a hair spider and I have many. Well they do like burn it. Yeah. It's yeah, it's a lot. Um one of the things I loved about Janet was just how competent she was. That was so wonderful. And like you you mentioned the you know, the the cultivating the relationships, you know, bringing the lunch to the cops to get the information. And then the way that that actually like, it doesn't just feel like it's there simply to tell us Janet can do her own thing. It pays off. She gets the call later. It's like stitched throughout the story. And because Ben, who is like uh often falling so short throughout the story, kind of finds himself actually out loud saying a few times, like, it's like you guys forget that I do this for a living, you know, about the about the PI work. Yeah. To then have him say at the end, like, you're better- you're better at this than I am. And we know that that is true very much. When he like tells her that he's spider spider , he's just like, Yeah, I know. That's my favorite as a gap. He's drunkenly revealed to her. And the fact that he has retained none of that and has done it multiple times. That was so, so, so funny. Yeah, I thought he was so good. Spider's busy, Janet! So good. He was so good at being goofy. Yeah. Which I was so happy. Because I was a little afraid that it was going to be he was going to try and really do Humphrey Bogart throughout. Yeah. So the silliness was very refreshing. Yes. And I thought was very welcome and and he crushes.. Yeah And then we have the heart from Janet and Robbie in those relationships. So that was really great. On the villain front, who who was your favorite of either Silvermane or any of his? It could be Lucas Haas. It could be Winston. Tombstone, Sandman. We know it's not Mega watt for Joe. I don't know. I thought I think the design on Megawatt was so cool in the black and white. I thought that looked incredible. I liked Tombstone uh just because I thought that he had the most interesting story. Story. You know, he had the he had an arc. Uh uh, you know. Uh uh Sandman was fine. Um I I wanted Kat to have more depth. I wanted that character to have another layer. Yeah. Uh, because she was super interesting and is captivating to watch and was electric on screen. So I was like, ooh, I just wanted that's why I kept being like, is she black cat? Is this a is she casing this? Is she going to steal? What's going on here? You know? I think they were just using they were just using the name, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, but um no, I really agree with you. I think that like the Flint Felicia, the Flint cat thing was the heart was the mushiest part of the whole thing. Was just sort of like, yeah, theirs is the love story we're supposed to believe in. He ultimately makes a decision at the end of the day because of her. He gets to get the antidote as eventually so that they can run off to like Santorini or wherever they're going to be live happily ever after. But then like why are we meant to buy into the the Ben cat thing at all likely. Yeah. When he's like saying to Janet like, I'm so excited, we're leaving tomorrow. Like I was like, do you believe that? Are you listening? You're a 62-year-old man. Get it together, guy. She was packing. Like, I feel like she was gonna go. And then she said to him at the end, like, if not for Flynn, I would have gone. I liked his retort. I liked his like, you know, it's one thing to like fuck around with the guy but then to like sail away and keep him on the hook and she's like fuck off and it's like oh no I mean it was like he deserved to say it. I did have a I did Google at one point how old the actress was who's playing Felicia Cathardy because I was like wondering about the age difference. And it popped up immediately in the Google search, which means a lot of people were wondering about that age difference. She's in her early 40s, which is just like older than I thought she was. And there are comments throughout that that Silvermain's like a younger model and like stuff like that. I mean she looks incredible. Beautiful. Uh you know, young forties, young sixties, still an age gap, but I was just like, that's not as gross as I thought it was. But I also I didn't believe for an instant that there was an action love connection. No, no, no, not at all. But like she was going to go with like the plot is I guess was it and that was that simply because it was the only the path of least resistance to extricate extricate herself from the situation. I thought it was because she thought Flint was gone and so she's like uh uh the next guy. Yeah. I tried to burn down Silvermain's place, it didn't be with Flint, it didn't work out. So, like, I guess the case Ben Riley seems like a good enough guy. When she does, when she throws herself out of the window, which I quite liked because like women in spider stories always get thrown off the roof. So the fact that she threw herself out the window is like that's great. She gives him this like the look she gives him as she's being sort of reeled back in is very much like, oh, it's the spider. Hello. Yeah. Well, once you know he's the spider. Well, and it's also that it's it's you know, like in noir terms, if she is our femme fatale, like her interest can't be trusted. Well she should have been like that that's a story I would have preferred is that she's playing him the whole time. But I feel like he was trying to have it both ways. I think it was. I think she should be a villain. I is not a villain like uh um with malice. I should she should be looking out for herself. Yes. That's all. That's all I mean, you know. Yeah. But in a way that is absolutely negative for him and that she is remorseless, I think, should be part of it. You know? And I still think she should get her guy and still go to Santorini. By the way, great. Yeah. You know, absolutely. But it just it it made it again, mushy enough that I was like, who am I supposed to who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? What is this what is the story? Yeah, is what I kept having trouble with. And then as I was as it would start to come into view, there would be like an entire episode that is just Nicholas Cage in a mental institution. And I was like, okay, so we're doing one of these? Yeah. We're doing like a bottle episode for him where he's just in a mental it's I was like this is it was crazy. It was it was so crazy. I loved it because it gave us so all this madness. But I was also like we don't have time for this man. Like I'm not interested in stopping down to tell this part of it now. Yeah. I I think uh Flint was didn't totally land. I agree. And like I think I what you 're mentioning boardwalk empire and Jack Houston earlier, like I do like the casting on the we're back in a prohibition era story, you know, and you associate uh Richard with that that time, but like he He is so handsome. And he's like, put some shit on my face. And there's No they'll take me seriously. It's like a bizarre version of like, you know, Tom Hardy can never show his face or something. I don't I don't understand what's going on with that. But it I didn't think this Flint Market was like particularly charismatic or interesting. Yeah. No, but I thought it was a bummer. No, but I thought his design was very cool. Yeah. I thought all like the tombstone megawatt sandman designs were like the way that the sand moved around his face, at least in black and white looked quite good. Yeah, I didn't think Megawatt looked as good in in the true hue because then it's like the kind of like uh orangey neon creep up the face versus I I agree. Yeah, I thought and I thought it was good that they didn't try and do too much for those three guys. You know, they didn't try and full sandman him, you know. Only at the end you get the like s the the the hand out of the pile of sand.. Yeah Yeah. I did like when he got smushed between the cars and just exploded like a dune blown in the wind. That was very fun. Um on the mega watt run, in case he doesn't come up again, just want to share this quote. You ever shut up? No. Why would I deny the world a moment of my grand Dior who has ever said Granger that way in their life? Grand Dior, that killed me. I was cracking up. What a bizarre, truly bizarre performance from that. When I looked up that guy, like, okay, with love and respect to that guy, when I looked up and found out that he was like a Nickelodeon kid, I'm like, yeah. Oh, I love it. Yeah, love it. But that's the thing where I'm like, oh, this is where I wish Sam Raimi had done it. Or if you want to see the to me, the perfect execution of director and this version of Nicholas Cage, I urge everyone at home to please take a moment tonight to put on Bad Lieutenant Port of Call New Orleans. This is Werner Herzog directing Nicholas Cage in one of the most unhinged, delightfully so performances in modern cinema. Um there are multiple points of there are multiple shots where you are looking at the existing action through the point of view of a lizard that is also there. So it is some nuts level stuff. I cannot recommend it enough. And it is this Nicholas Cage, just totally unhinged. Double feature with Mandy or Great. Okay. Great. And and Take your preferred substance of choice. Oh my God. Do you think anyone told Werner Herzog to move the lizard and he said, no, you're a coward, just like when they tried to replace the puppet Grogu with C . Mallory's gonna make this Warner Hzertberg moment about Groku. Either that or the video where you see him actually get shot by uh the Oh yeah by Klauskinsky. Yeah. Just one of the crazy . And the short where he eats his boot. Yeah. Uh all of it. All of it. All of Fitzgaraldo. All of it. It's absolutely fucking nuts. What a guy. A true the every just do yourself a favor also and watch the Werner Herzog directed commercial for salt . For his friend's salt I've never seen this. Salt? The thing you bought. I got the salt. It worked. I bought the salt. What? Where does it land on the like Orson Wells like that? No, it's it's just a real no, it's a real commercial. Well the Orson Wells one is too. No, I know, but I mean it's like um But it's just like an actual finished commercial that went to wear. Okay. Correct. It's it is and it's so Werner Herzog. It's amazing. Exciting. Um the the all the lizard shots on fresh air with Terry Gross. Verna Herzog, they're talking about that movie, and she's talking about all these shots that are from the point of view of the lizard, and he says that it's Herzogian. He calls it Herzogian. And I was like, I love this guy so what's what's been who knows? That's not for me to decide. Well it was for Werner to decide. So yeah it's I can I can't I wouldn't give yourself a nickname. I can't have that gravitas the way that he does. All right. He also claims to not dream. I love it. Silence. He says he doesn't remember his dreams or that he does not dream. Like his subconscious is not active while he's asleep. That doesn't seem possible. I don't think that's true. Have I ever told you my favorite joke from the league? No, what is it? Uh it's when your character says Gataka instead of Attica. Oh yeah. Was that an improper? Was that in the script? Just take just claim it. And if you claim it, I'm gonna say it's meer cancer again. I think it might have been in the script. And so Jeff would usually like have some if he had a bit or a uh a joke, he would give us that. And I think Gattaca might have been a Jeff pitch. I don't remember though. Uh it's absolutely something I would have improvised. Let's call it Manzuki Positively manzik Any other funny scenes or moments that you guys want to highlight that we haven't talked about already? We talked about the I already know your your spider, you're the spider montage with Janet, which was my pick for this. I also enjoyed when she said he was yellow and he's like a coward. Like a banana . Really funny. I loved all that stuff. Um we talked about the scene where he's doing the stretching and the all this . There's a couple, but there's one in particular that genuine and it's especially if you really I'd love for somebody to clip it and meme it or whatever. Because he comes in with the suitcase with his costume in it, and it looks like that just that scene looks like a version of Death of a Salesman directed by Guy Madden. It's like true insane next level otherworld stuff. I love when you see it before you quite understand what it is. And you're like, what's happen- Okay. Yeah. Those were the moments that I felt like really engaged by the show. Yes. When it was weird. Yeah. You know, because when it's trying to do the th the story, it's not weird at all. And it's very on rails. Right. Unsuccessfully, I would say. I love too in his like when he's doing the physical comedy of the shriveled up spider and all of that. You know, because Spider-Man is so many of the comics, the origin of Peter Parker, all of this is so rooted in the like young person goes through puberty and comes to terms with like, I've gotta tingle and then I'm slinging white stuff out of my body, what's happening? Yeah. The idea of like old washed Ben Riley spider noir being like, guys, I'm uh Really funny . Like that was really that was really funny. That was just great. I also loved I wrote when he him playing happy Ben Riley. Oh yeah. Uh when he sings I'm I Love Cheesecake in the Morning with You. I was like, what is he up to? I guarantee that's an improv. Yeah. There's absolutely no way that was in the script. He's just riffing in a way that I recognize as the insufferable riffing that I do on sets, that people are like, well, this guy just please stop. But boy, is the are they finding absolutely wonderful stuff. I love having eating cheesecake in the morning. I love cheesecake in the morning with you. Really got me the whole happy performance. Um I really loved. I'm just trying to go through all the stuff that I flagged as um Yeah. What about just the bottle is just labeled antidote? Very, very, very, very good. And the people keep looking at it and being like, what is this? Yeah. Well, I gotta I got news for you.. It's the antidote Yeah. That I also loved when Robbie , yeah. When Robbie comes, Robbie comes in and then Janet is found. And the whole bit about like , well, it seemed like seemed dumb to bring it in and he's like, yeah, this is like so much better. That was great. I loved that. I also enjoyed when he called Cat Lady Judas. That just made me laugh . Also, everybody knows he's the spider. Too many people know. So bad at keeping the secret. Too many people. You know what I mean? That I was like, be better at this. It felt very like Mandalorian. I was like, does he have to kill every single person So that he can be redeemed. Violation. Like that rando fucking bartender knows. Oh, that bartender definitely knows. For sure. Yeah. I was like, no, what's the I mean, I guess he's drunk. I I I I couldn't figure that out. I was like, Spider Man really protects his his his but the fact that he got that amazing Janet montage where he's hammered blastered as he likes and then has no is not able to retain the fact that he has like uh revealed his own identity yeah he's not gonna know that that bartender knows so that's that's a liability it's Todd Fields' freaks that he says is still in theaters. Which is still playing in theaters, but I was like, oh, God bless you. Incredible. You know, he's like, what year is it exactly? What time what yeah I was like, what year is it exactly? When he made a reference to a 19, I know we're diff iner aent world. When you mean the reference to a nineteen forty nine Betty Davis movie, I'm like, are we in nineteen forty nine? Yeah. Are we in nineteen are we have we traveled into the nineteen fifties? Freaks is much earlier. Freaks is the 30s, I think. How much after World War II are we meant to be ? You know? I don't know. And that's a great question. And and the movie doesn't want you to ask these questions. Where is the liver inside of your body? Yep. Yes. Don't ask these questions. Yeah. Was prohibition the exact same time in this continuity? Oh yeah, exactly. I mean that's the best time because I mean are they supposed to be World War One back? It's World War I it's World War One. But then like then it's is it in the movie so then for him to be quoting 1949 movies makes no sense at all. Right. As long as you could still wax poetic about really wanting a hot dog, I thought I'm willing to accept that. Loved all of that. As long as that makes so much hot dog stuff. So much voice work. He's doing so much business. Yeah. I mean, and the wigs are doing the wigs are positively like uh truly like nuts level. Yeah. The the the tight one in modern i in contemporary time. But then the floppy one in the flashbacks was really getting it. Also this is my matinee idol moment. With his white vest and shirt on, like gauzy. Those flashbacks were trouble. Do you think it was his decision to say that he only had one clean glass and then he found another glass and it was dirty, but he would drink from the dirty one and then not just turn on the sink and rinse it? Do you think that was his choice? He definitely could have just turned on the sink and I mean like there's a million I m there's a I feel like when she 'cause I feel like in that moment she goes Ben, but I really feel like she wanted to be like Nick. Yes, Tom. Nick just rinse the glass. Nick. We're we're we're we're already over. That's incredible What about the emotion? Did any of the emotional moments hit you? I mentioned I really liked the bench scene between Robbie and Ben at the end. I quite I quite enjoyed that. I thought that was like a There was some good stuff, but I yeah, there was nothing there was no emotional storyline that I felt particularly connected to. Which is I think why I wanted more from the detective story. Yes. Why I wanted more shoe leather. Yeah. Because I wasn't like, oh, but at least I'm having fun inside of this emotional storyline. No, it was kinda neither nor Werner Herzog to o. Yes. Chomp chomp. Uh with love and respect to uh the poor drowned Ruby, none of that stuff worked for me. No. Truly Poor drowned Ruby. Just zero percent work for me. It does also seem we don't know all the particulars. He should have been able to get to her. I think he's the sky dark. When he tells the story, which is like I was drunk at the time. And then they cut back to him like Oh wait a minute. So he was an asshole? Yeah. He was like, I was supposed to meet her, but I was a good time Johnny. Kevin and his like his outfit is wearing like a patterned uh you know jacket and he's like ah big nick case I was like I fucking love it. And he's like she died because I was a piece of shit. Oops. Yeah. I I I I don't it didn't work for me either for that reason. I was like, I don't understand. Cause it's also like he's doing Sam Spade, he's doing classic noir, Humphrey Bogart. Um, but then when when he's not , he's really not. He's broad in every single way, in that Bugs Bunny way. Yeah. In a way that I was like, well then I don't believe you if if you were then a bad guy, a Sam Spade, a callous, a Parker, a you know, like a callous, uh remorseless uh person, then be that still as as the spider. Right. You know, be murderous, be but the drum they bang so many times is like the spider will save people. He's a good guy. He will he will intervene. Right. And I really wish that like I wish that it not that I wish for another like Gwen Stacy moment, but I wish it had been more like a Gwen Stacey moment where it's like I I even, the Spider-Man, couldn't get her not. I was drunk somewhere in a bar. Yeah. And then I stopped to put my spider suit on and then just kind of floated uselessly in the water. By the time I got to the lake, I definitely still could have saved her. For sure, he was so close. No, but he was drunk, couple whiskey tumblers deep at that point, I think. I it's interesting because like what you guys are saying, the the the selfish, callous, like not a great guy thing he's done is decide to stop being the spider for five years, right? And so then when like Robbie and and his friends have to talk him into like, you know, when Robbie says, like, well, you you have the choice to like help these people now, it's I but the I I think to your point, like the part where he is because the Cat and Ruby stuff doesn't really work, I agree. The place that the Lady Judith stuff sends Ben to actually still did work for me, particularly because he's being so goofy. He's now he's like mining the depths of his feelings. He's doing it in a kind of like really exaggerated way. So when he's in the the fight with the guys at the bar, these strangers who he feels like the need to defend himself to, even though they like they're nobody of consequence to him. And he's like, you know, maybe the spider's a guy, just like anyone else. You ever think about that? You ever wonder what his problems were? He's swinging around burning buildings, saving people you ever think he feels the heat, or gets sad, or tired, or lonely. I was thinking like even dragons get lonely from Hadi with Viserys but Did you have that under your most emotional moment, Mallory? Yes. That was my that's because I didn't have a lot of other contenders. So I think the the the bender g like I That's an example of something that I like and love and all of it works with the exception of there's a dissonance to it coming out of the mouth of someone so seasoned. Yeah. For a 60-something to be saying words that make more sense from a young person, for a young person to be strong. This is Peter Parker's struggle. Peter Parker's struggle is how do I maintain my life and give myself wholly to others? You know, like what is this how you know, and to love someone is to put them in danger and all of these component things um that he is in his sixties and still lamenting like So he went to war when he was in his fifties. Got it for he has and that again, like it it it's that thing which is like, oh, I'm so glad it's Nick Cage. And of course, but do you think they even had a conversation that's like we gotta get a younger actor if it is in fact live action. Yeah. You know, he Nick Cage is perfect for the voice of animated Ben Riley or animated Spider-Naw. Well, I like that he was washed. I just don't think you can give him this soldier backstory. I don't think so. Yeah, but not with don't make him contemporary. Not with these guys. Yeah, yeah. Not with these other guys who unless you make them all old. Right. You know, and it is the 40s. Dude, yeah, maybe. And it was from the teens. Make megawatt 60s. He's like, I'm a stop , but he's all wrinkly and like a me ma top of the world. That would be great. Uh which which effect did you guys like the best of the just styling and like which well again? I think the the henchman face stuff looked really good. Yeah. I thought I think, and this is not truly this is not an effect, but I think in a way, the black and white version of it is the effect that I got the most out of. Like it helped immerse me in this world that it was referencing and always referencing all of the kind of classic uh cinema term cinemographic. But um what's the word I want? Cinematography? Cinema, yeah, it was cinematography cinematographic? Like, right? I'm trying to find the same word. But you know what I'm saying? Like all those visual cues, all the cinematic cues, uh, but specifically camera , like all this stuff. The canted angles. They're a lot of up angles to be people. The blinds and the stark contrast between light and dark and all the stuff that's like all the pieces of noir, I really enjoyed and really helped me. Cause I think if that hadn't been if I'd watched the color version, I think I would have liked it quite a bit less. Yeah, oh no. Like it it helped put me in the mindset of those movies that I love. Yeah. And those that kind of storytelling. I was most curious to see how the effect of Sandman translated. I think just because like the Sandman looks so horrible in Spider-Man 3, it was interesting to see a different design on Sandman and it was just refreshing to to have it be anything but it was just his like little fist. Yeah. Yeah. And some like fishing Yeah, vision stuff. Yeah, but and I was like, what's it gonna look like? Is it golden? And it kind of wasn't almost like more like gravel than sand. And then when he when it's like the sand has turned to glass from megawatt's heat, it's like a kind of ocean blue? I had such an avatar bender moment, like when Mega Watt was fighting Sandman, and I was like, what happens when lightning hits sand? Yeah, glass bitches. There you go. She had said that. Yeah. I mean, but how would you have said that? How many of you spinning? Glass BG. I did like when Megawak got thrown in front of the train during the final battle. That was fun. I enjoyed it. Conducta? We all we also did like a full John Wick 2 Hall of Mirrors. Yes. Silvermane? Horrible. Yeah, that was strange. I didn't get that either. Again, I I was really waiting eager for the show to be done at that point. And especially I was like the especially because I felt like the Silvermane, the crime storyline for me ended around episode five or six. Yeah. And then seven and eight just felt interminably long because seven was mostly the mental hospital, Amy, Aquino digging his liver out and making like them her young son, who's an old man. Like I was like, what is going on ? Good old freckles. Yeah. Freckles. Not nearly enough freckles on his face to have the nickname freckles, by the way. Just throwing that out there. Then he died right away, man. Oh yeah, he died straight away. Both of them. Both of them straight to death. So no, they're dead. Anything. For cat goes to the doctor and is like, are you telling me if you know who the spider is, then you can create an antidote? She should go to Ben and be like, hey, go to the doctor. She can create an antidote from your whatever, genetic makeup or whatever. Liver. And instead it's Seven Pints of your blood. So then we were weirdly like, oh, they have to kidnap it. I was like, I don't understand any of this. Like why they did it like this. You know, that didn't make sense to me. Yeah. And then that element, like you said already of are we supposed to really resent her for that? Are we still supposed to be rooting for her even though she's done this? Not just bad thing, but needless. Yes. Ultimately. It felt like he might want to find a cure as well. Yeah. So why why have to do this against his will versus I think if someone approached him and said we might be able to cure you, uh you don't have to be the spider anymore. And he could be like , great. Right. Crazy doctor trying to decades age down her, like trying to like force a Benjamin buttoning of her son in her secret lab, full of basically the thing from the prestige. Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say like alien resurrection vibes in there for sure. Like Fallouts of uh Vault 4, you know, with all the the mashups of the animals and the people um very very very strange very strange concept that I do enjoy what else have we not hit for spider in the world that anybody wants to touch on any I will just say um in terms of the bad effects you know, the digital double the, swinging Spider-Man digital double looked pretty bad most of the time. Like especially in the landing sort of uh moments. But I think the spider suit was so cool ed awesome. I love it. And I just think like in the fight, like it's even with the hat on, like it just looked really cool. The texture of it is cool. The goggles are great. And the goggles are really good at especially in the black and white, obviously. Um at giving you context for where he is in dark environments. Which I loved that as a just like a visual cue. It was it was terrific. I also liked when he was like 'cause the silver made a phone call thing, like he's just like this guy with the sock on his head, and like he can't understand a word he says. He's like pretty annoying, actually. That was just that was that was very good. Why did you think the double looked bad? Like because of the the not convincingly Nick Cage, or like he's too is it because he no, just the physics were off on like the land, the landing, it just looked like too light and too like gumby as it as it landed. Just it's a I agree. It looked it should have been more like hobbling from the It looked like animation from the like the Sam Raimi movie. Yeah. It looked like old you know it just wasn't it had that problem which I think is probably endemic with all of their shows. They just don't have the money Exactly to do to do it as well as it can be done on the for eight episodes of a T V show. It just it makes you appreciate like how good of a job they do with Tom Hollins It's incredible. Yeah. I mean, maybe it's not too late to get Nick Cage into Billy Elliott before season two of Spider-Noir and then have him become like an expert dancer. Okay. And do his own stunts. Oh wow. It is too late to get Nicasian. Billy Elliott is the is the middle of the thing. If he's trying to replicate Tom Holland's grace and lim itness Yeah. I mean he could do something else. Will he be able to do like a Rihanna Umbrella rendition? Holland Billy Elliott? On the stage. On the stage. Jamie Bell on the stage. So both Billy Elliott's have became superheroes. Became superheroes. Body horror superheroes. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Sure is. What does that say about the world we're living in? We'll be right back with more Hasabar . This episode is brought to you by Weather Tech. Everyone knows winter is the MVP and make it a mess. You don't need Weather Tech floor liners in the summer unless you hit the beach or go camping. Then you'd want a cargo liner or road trip goes sideways, ketchup goes rogue , ice cream, drips. Yeah, you'd be pretty happy about those WeatherTech seat protectors. So just to be clear as the mud, you're inevitably going to step into the summer. You don't need WeatherTech unless you plan on doing summer. Visit Weathertech.com today . This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app where you can bank, borrow, and invest. It's time to achieve your financial ambitions. Earn more on your savings through the SoFi Bank High Yield Savings Account. Ditch your higher interest credit card debt with a SoFi personal loan, or start investing on an easy-to-use platform with SoFi Invest. Wherever you are on your financial journey, SoFi's got you covered. Learn more at sofi.com/slash spotify. This episode is brought to you by SoFi, the all-in-one finance app to bank, borrow, and invest. Say goodbye to account fees and give your bank balance a glow-up with the SoFi High Yield Savings account. Get over eight times the national average savings rate and an epic Wcelome Bonus when you sign up with eligible direct deposit. Sign up at SoFi.com slash Spotify. SoFi checking and savings offered through SoFi Bank NA. Member FJ C. Terms apply . All right . It's time for a favorite tradition across the ringer podcast network. Manzucas recommends. Oh, okay. Uh here we go. All right. So I want I'm here to talk about anime. Uh this is very new to me. I'm a very new to anime person. Like I said, I'm I'm a 53-year-old man who has a crunchy roll subscription and no children, which is allowed. I check. You looked it up. It's cool. In California only or nationwide? By the way, good question. It is uh they're they're br they're locking it down in some states. Um I read an article about this show, Freerin, Beyond Journey's End. Yep. I don't know.ene Whver it was airing season one, so a couple of years ago , that made it sound so interesting and right up my alley that I sought it out. I subscribed to Crunchyroll and I watched it and became obsessed with it. And this show I've watched in in its entirety at least six or seven times. I've watched it constantly. It's like it is, it's a real balm. It's been a real balm in my life, I'd say in these in the years since it came into my life. And it is incredible storytelling on wait, and correct. Have you guys watched? How much have you guys watched? I watched like five episodes, I want to say I'm through episode ten. Okay. And so I've watched all of it. There's just two seasons and season it's like thirty-six episodes total or something like making a third season? I believe so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But um and it's based on a manga that I have not read and purposefully will not read because I don't want to be spoiled as to what's going on in this context because I'm so enjoying this interpretation of it. Some sometimes spoilers matter. Sometimes if you told me that something happened in it, I wouldn't be mad at you. But I'm I'm enjoying receiving the story like this, so I don't want to first do it this way and then receive the entirety of the story. Um and just so I'll I'll break it down for people, because I think your show in specific is this this show is for your demo. Yeah. This is a show that is about this it's called Beyond Journey's End. And so at the very beginning of this story is the very end of the story that has been before , which is a party of heroes, adventurers, managed to defeat the demon king, who's been just an absolute brutal, terrible figure in this world for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. A big bad. And the party of heroes is a warrior, uh Himmel the uh the warrior uh uh rather Himmel the hero, uh, a warrior Aizen, uh, the the the kind of priest uh hider and the mage who is Freerin who's an elf. And it's the show is about an elf, Freerin, who is, because she's an elf, immortal. And you are watching a show that is about people fighting dragons and being on an adventure. And it is for shows like this. It is a found family show. It is a it is a Lord of the Rings. It is a fellowship show, it is people in pursuit of uh a task that is so big, but along the way, they are doing things for they're helping other people with their needs and and and engaging in smaller acts of service throughout the land. And you're watching it from the point of view of a character, Freegrin, who's essentially immortal, who becomes consumed with and heartbroken by this idea that she does not know how to have human relationships with people because their lifespans are so short to her. They're on this adventure that for the group of heroes is so totemic for them because it's a decade of their lives. And she's like, That's nothing. Yeah. And she's like, I'll see you in fifty years to we'll we'll meet again to to see the the meteor storm again in fifty years. And when she sees them, they're all old and dying. Yeah. And she does she hasn't aged a a beat and they are all it it it sends her into this kind of existential crisis. And she then takes on an apprentice, starts to assemble a new group that she so the show is bouncing between her and her apprentice, Fern, who is maybe one of my favorite characters in all of stories now. Um, they're young warriors Stark, and they are now walking the path that she walked in her former fellowship, in her former group, they are walking the same path, encountering some of the same townspeople, encountering some of the same bad guys. And learning how to be a friend and a human being and how to really connect with people. And that to me, I think is what I think is wonderful about the show is I watch a lot of shows, anime shows that are about people fighting demons and people fighting dragons, jujits u kaizen and demon slayer, and all these shows that are that are like sentenced to being a hero. These are great shows that are a blast. But Freerin to me is those things happen throughout, but really, it's about these sli ce of life moment to moment episodic nature of their group of friends getting to be closer with each other. And it is so satisfying and so sweet. And I think that's why I keep coming back to it. It scratches that itch to me that like great British bake off does. Like it feels wonderfully cozy to be in Freerin's world with her. I'm curious what you guys have thought so far, knowing that you've only watched a little bit of it. Um, I'm immediately kind of obsessed with it. And I and I should say thank you so much. Like you're the impetus for me watching it, but our listeners have been trying to get us to watch it for a while. They were right, you're right. Um, the premise, and and I think this is okay to say because it is the premise of the show, is that, you know, the death of Himmel the Hero, which is what starts everything, uh, starts her introspection and her emotional sort of awakening. Um That idea , and we flash back constantly to them as, you know, I've checked it off your bingo card. I have to talk about Westworld season one. Westworld season one, she's walking that same path that she walked before and remembering what it was like. There's this will they won't they between Freerin and Himmel, but we the viewer know they never will because he's died and it is so much pain to watch. It's a comfort. It is a bomb. It's a cozy show. It's a cup of tea. It's a quilt. But it's also like that very conceit, that very premise of he's so in love with her and, she's so oblivious. And you know, she's never going to figure it out before he dies because we already watched him die. And so I'm just gonna watch him like pine for her and then her regret not understand ing what he meant to her. Well, when she goes back and finds him 50 years later, and he turns around and he's he says, Fre yan? And she says, Hello, you're so old. Yeah. And she's the wonderful thing about Free Ren is she's blunt. Yeah. She's tactless. She is so just forthright, cold, removed. She does not connect emotionally with people. And you're right, it is. It's the death of him Himmel of the hero that sets this whole thing in motion. And she starts to sob. And she's basically like, I didn't I thought I had more time to get to know him. Right. I thought the sentiment of I thought I had more time is so central to what she's going through. And again, she's immortal, but the time she's now aware of is our time, is the humans' time, the humans that are around her, you know, and then her making more of an effort to connect with Eisen , to connect with uh uh with Heiter and and try and find them and make sure that she is of service to them in their later years because she knows that they are also dying, and that that's how when she comes to heiter and she's you know coming to him to be like, This is the end of your life. Is there anything I can do? He says, Will you take this girl on, Fern? And as an apprentice. And then there's this great episode that is, you know, uh uh a ruse uh that takes place over many years. That's the other thing that's great about the show is the show is constantly expanding and collapsing time. You know, like when when they arrive in a village, you know, Freerin will be like, well, we could stay here a little while. And Fern will be like, what's a little while? And Freerin will be like, two or three years. It'll take us two or three years to clear this beach or whatever. And so you're just really very kind. Maybe it's because I am middle-aged and thinking about time so much, and time seems to be, to me, speeding up in a way that is really unsettling. The way that Freeran talks about having time and the way that everybody else talks about not having time is so potent and so heartbreaking. You know, there's just it is a it is a show that is so light and fun, but then about such real heavy like existential issues, it's absolute dynamite. Yeah. It made me think a lot about Avatar the Last Airbender, you know, which is found family. It's it yes, there are these big adventures we have, but it's about the relationships that we build, the friends we made along the way. Isn't it always? And it it is like episode to episode them going into towns and having to tackle small problems. The small problems though that connect them to the people around them. Yeah. And that that's what's that and that and the the younger Fern and Stark are constantly saying, why are we doing this? Why are we wasting time helping these people clear the beach? And she's like that or why why does Himmel have statues everywhere? And it is it's this idea of like make people's lives better, make people's lives easier and they will remember you. You know, like that is your legacy is to have helped these people, not to have slain the dragon or whatever. That's great, but you know, like there it's i it's just uh boy do I love this. And also like to learn that you can slay the dragon by yourself. You know, in in Stark's case, I get a real kick out of Stark. I love him. Yeah, I I'm'm I'm absolutely loving it. And Adam's loving it. It's like we're we're all we're I think the first season's 28 episodes, so like we've barely, you know, barely begun our journey, but just the first 10, especially because we're where we are through right now is the these demon confrontations, the multi arc uh uh stretch that is like really intense in terms of thinking about like morality and what you get to decide about like what is good or who is good and who is right. Yeah, it's getting quite and what's really interesting, and neither of you have gotten there yet, and this is not a spoiler, I don't think, but the second half of season one is in its entirety a test. Which Freerin has above and beyond. But and there but so what you're doing is like they're just intr building out the world and then giving you really all these unique and fun puzzles to get in get them involved. Yeah, like I I the you said existential. There is something v deeply philosophical and existential about it. It's quite poignant and mov ing. It's like very smart and deft. I have found it like very entertaining and compelling, but also deeply moving. I mean, the log line of like what Limberg, Ben Limberg, our colleague Ben Limberg, was the first person who pitched it to me, actually, and he pitched it as like, much like I think many of the bad babies have, it's basically like Lord of the Rings ends and then right? Which was obviously. Well it's like George R. R. Martin being like, what's Aragon's tax policy?? You know what I mean Or whatever. In their little cradles. The baby arcs in their little cradles. Yeah. What happens after Robert's Rebellion? Yeah. And that's what this is. Like this Beyond Journey's End is the title of the show. Like once that big once the big story's over. Exactly. And like to use the familiar archetypes that if you are a fan of Lord of the Rings, you're gonna like, okay, so we have our we ha that's that's all really great and really fun. But uh when Lindbergh pitched it to me and he was describing it about grief, I was like , I I don't know if this is the right time. And then when you when you pitched it to me when I saw you and Halo had just died, you were like, I think that's why you would love it. Because sorry. No . It's like I think like it is very much about like missing people, but it's about the way you put it to me was like it's about like learning to feel the gift of those memories. Yeah, keeping them in your mind. Yeah. And so like that's been really lovely. And like it's sad to , you know, think about loss as I'm watching. I think that's why we've been going very slowly through it. But it has been like very cat hartic too to just think about like I don't know how the new experiences that you have in your life and the new bonds that you form like allow you to think back with grief and sorrow and longing, but also just like with so much gratitude, you know, and that like so much of life is a journey toward gratitude and appreciation. So like I've really loved that part of it. And I think like, you know, this was early, this like this, mm, it might be like the second episode, but like the blue flowers. Like looking to put the blue flowers on Himmel statue and just like I loved it. And taking the time. Taking the time. Taking the time to find them and just like do something that also it is fleeting because those flowers will die and they won't be there next time, but means something. It's like the jet like shit paying attention to things, it's how we show love, you know, it's the Bill and Frank Last of Us idea and like that's just been really nice. And then yeah, the the the we're always talking about, you know, time now I have the Buffy angel version of that, which has been really fun. And I always like to think about like, you know, Loki and Thor and Jane and like say goodbye. And like it made me think too of like Duran and Elrond and Rings of Power and when he when Elrond shows up. And it's been 20 years, and his friend is like, you just like forgot about me when you talk everything. Totally. Oh yeah. And that idea of perspective and the way that Freeron is just learning to appreciate the people. And like that's been cool when they go to these different towns and communities . The statues and the way that these heroes and like for us in story in the world of story and culture like these these archetypes right that like that has sustained these villages like this thing that happened there and the idea that it is worth remembering and worth remarking upon. And like the promises, you know, the promises that someone will return to help them again. And then Freerin, a person who had not, or a mage, an elf who had not thought about that. Then being in the position to be the one to ensure that that like prophecy can be fulfilled. And she is for largely forgotten. Yeah. Like it is Himmel the hero who the statues are all of Himmel. Yes. It's very rare, is it that there's a statue of all four of them? It happens, but very rare. Um but it's it's hero, it it's Himmel the hero always. And then every once in a while someone will be like, He traveled with an Elvin name. Yes. Do you know her? Yeah. You know? And I don't know if this will be a recurring through line, I assume so, but the way that there are different kind of legends around her, like like it's Friar and the Slayer is where I am now. I'm like , well, and you also get to be it's also a world that she is one of very few elves left alive. Right. Like tr tremendously few. So in those instances in the future where you do meet another elf, it's very impactful. Yes. Or there's a there uh uh without just giving too many things away, there are also a couple of instances where they find statues of people they don't recognize. It's not a statue of Himmel the Hero. It's a statue of let's just say the hero of the South, who I will name but not say anything else about in that's season two. And absolutely my favorite episode of season two is about the hero of the South. Um it, is electric storytelling. I think I've watched it all like I said so many times. Um I had uh spinal fusion surgery last year and was in bed for about six weeks and watched it over and over and over. It is m the most satisfying watch. It is so each it is so rewarding to keep digging into it. It is like a perfect storybook. You know? Uh there's just something and what they're doing in season two, super interesting. That's the other thing is like you think it's going, you think you understand what it's doing. And like I said, the the back half of season one is this large uh exam that they all are taking sort of. You know, this kind of it's in this different architecture. Trial. Yeah. And then in season two, back to kind of itinerant uh moving towards Arale , kind of on our path towards Mount Doom or you know whatever uh and and and all of the kind of little adventures there. It's guys, come on. We're loving it. I think that's fantastic recommendation. One other thing I want to say is like that structure, that I find that love story structure really profound as it relates to what you were saying about grief because there's this the way in which you're watching I'm only five episodes in, but the way in which it seems to me that like Himmel was in love with her. Yeah. And she is sort of realizing that she was in love with him, and she is falling in love with him to a certain degree via her memories of him. And as she revisits and understands him better and thinks about it more and views him from a different perspective, like she's like, oh, this person was so much more important to me than I appreciated at the time. And then I realized. And so I think that is such a huge part of what grief is or can be, is just this sort of like even deepening of a bond you already, you know, he was already a good friend of hers, but in the loss of him, and then in the memory of him and in this journey that physically takes her from memory to memory to memory, she falls in love with him i in a way that is just so I mean human and so us. Well yeah, and it really is so very much about her having to force herself to think about a tiny fraction of her life. These ten years that she spent with this party of heroes. Right. It's just a she is again thousands of years old. She for her, so she's excavating it because it was she's realizing how impactful and important it was. Right. And in fact, those relationships and the relationships now with Fern and Stark are, as the show goes on, foundationally changing her. Right in an incredible way. And how it changed yeah, to your point, how it changes how she can connect to people now. It's great. Okay. So I'm obsessed with this show and another friend of mine also obsessed with this show, Rishi K Shearway. Yeah. Who is, you know, a friend of mine and we're talking about it, blah blah blah. And have you watched Freerin' re watching it. We're great. I watched it. We finished amazing. Blah blah blah. We're going back and forth. And so and I was saying, um, I'm just gonna I I I clipped this because I was like, oh, I want my other recommendation is a recommendation from Rishi . And this was the text back and forth. He says, apothecary diaries question mark. And I say, haven't watched. I loved Delicious in Dungeon. That was one of my recommendations, which is also fantastic. But he says,he Apotcary Diaries is great. And then this is what made me immediately, I'm not kidding, immediately press play on episode one of Apothecary Diaries. He says, an upstairs, downstairs, house MD set in feudal China. Jane Austeny, will they, won't they? But also a medical mystery procedural. And I was like, go, go, go, go, go, tell you. My experience with Rishi is that like nobody gives a speci fic recommendation better than he does? He's the greatest. Oh, he's so good. It is the apothecary diaries. There's only two seasons of it. So again, another cause one of my things with anime is a lot of these shows have massive catalogs of episodes. Can't do it. I'm I'm not gonna do it. But this I was like there was only one season, I think, when he recommended it. So I was like, yes. And I got this. Do you have either of you ? I I watched the first one last night. Okay, great. What do you think? I will be watching it as soon as I get home tonight. It is I thought it was incredible. So what do you know the setup at all? Okay, so it I think Rishi's uh description is is very good. It is. In the opening moments of episode one, it's about a young girl who is the daughter to an apothecary. It's feudal China. Uh she works in the pleasure district creating salves and balms and medicines for the for the for the uh sex workers in a brothel. Um she is kidnapped and sold into essentially slavery in the rear palace where all the the emperor's um um courtesans live courtesans or we concubines concubines sorry where the emperor's concubines live and she is like meant to be just like uh a servant there, but then they slowly realize that she has an apothecary skill set, and so they start to put her to work solving the mysteries of the palace. So it is palace intrigue, it is also a will-they-won't they but between her and the guy that runs the rear palace. Yes. Uh Master Jinshi, who is um well, I won't say anything more about uh they're all eunuchs, so there's a little bit of uh for Thrones fans, a little Missy and the Worm energy here, which I'm enjoying only one episode in. And so it really becomes this story where she is trying, she's she just exists now in this new world and is Mau Mau is her name. And she is one of my all-time favorite characters in stories now. I'm obsessed with this character because she is it is it's like it is a medical, it's a mystery procedural, but it's always building out these character relationships and these character dynamics that she has with the other uh ladies in waiting, with the staff of the rear palace, all this intrigue, all of these assassination attempts. There's so much going on. And her cursory knowledge of and ability to she's also obsessed with poisons. Yes. Not just that they exist, but she wants to drink them all. She wants to drink all poisons to see what they do. Learn on the job. She's like really into like getting poisoned, being poisoned. She becomes a taster. And she's and there's a great moment where she's like, she's just like being a taster, and she's like, oh, it's good, everything's good. And then she's like , this is poison. And it's awesome. You j and it's just it's glee. It's absolutely it's this show is fantastic. And then similarly to Freerin, they make big moves in later storylines to that aren't so that it doesn't just feel like um you know like case of the week because it does feel like a little bit of what we were saying we wished for Spider Noir. Yeah. It does feel in season one like kind of case of the weeky while it establishes all these relationships which, I think is really smart. And then season two kind of cracks it open into interesting those relationships, flipping it so that those relationships become the focus and the case of the week kind of fades a little bit. Really fantastic show. I was wondering about that because I just I watched the first episode before bed last night, loved it, excited to watch more, but I wasn't sure what that because it does have the like the setup of okay, and then she'll she'll they now know that she has this skill. Also, I love just the little detail of like she's the only serving girl who can read. So like that she kind of outs herself as like the one who left this clue because he writes. It's that was like those little details were really. There's a character you're gonna love coming up. I'm I'm I'm excited. But I was curious about the balance of case of the week versus bigger story because it uh I I've got hot D brain. Yeah. But it had a little bit of a house of the dragon, like in the first episode. Just but maybe that's just that case is the different the emperor's different sp uh lovers and their different kids. Certainly that's a component of it, but it's not every case is about that. How long how long are the episodes? Twenty-two minutes. Yeah. Wow. So much story in the first episode . An incredible. there's Wow. And and and and you barely have scratched the surface. There's and that's the thing they do very well is it just keeps revealing a much larger story is at play. A much lar all of these people are actually connected by these these three storylines. Yeah. And it takes her so long to figure a lot of this out. It's it's t it's dynamite. It and it's also this and Freerin, I also think in particular, are beautiful. They're not just great shows, great stories, immersive storytelling, artistically beautifully rendered. Can I ask you a really important question? Yeah. Are you a sub guy or a dub guy? Okay. Great question. So for free written, I watch it the first time through subtitle. I watch it in Japanese. Um and then all my subsequent rewat rewatches are in English. Um be and the if the and the actors are great. Um uh for apothecary diaries, I did the same thing. Um for the shows like jujitsu kaizen, for the more like just fighty action-y shows, um, I just listened to the English dub because I'm I'm not I'm there mostly for the spectacle, right? Um uh and uh less the immersive storytelling. Got it. Yeah, um and so but these shows I watch first time through because I've watched both of them ru m a lot, because there's only two seasons of both of these shows. So it is a you can do it uh over and over again. Um but the the the people they have doing the English dub are terrific, free rin especially, and Mao Mau is is whoever's doing that voice is great in apothecary diaries. I'm doing the subs, subtitles so far, first time. Which is I I think a good a good way to do it it obviously it just, you know, practically you can't be like looking down at like a sandwich or something. You love to look at your things. Well I guess you guys both know we do like to like sit at our T V trays and like us. Can't even do that. Gotta be like locked in with the for the subs, but it's um it's been it's been really fun to Oh maybe not to jump back to Spider Noir, but remember the scene where Nicolas Cage is eating the sandwich in front of the telephone booth waiting for the phone call. Yes, that was incredible. He's eating this scene like he's eating this sandwich. It is just chomp, chomp, chomp. That was great. That was good. Wonderful. Um both of these shows I think are ten out of ten. Like m a master . I think Freerin is a masterpiece. Crunchyroll is when you wat themch.. Crunchyroll They're both on Netflix right now, though. They are both on Netflix. I did not know. I just wanted to support Crunchyroll because Tyler from Crunchyroll has been emailing me for a moment. Yeah, shout out Tyler. Shout out Tyler. So I'll just throw a Delicious and Dungeon incredible show. What a Tyler. It is it is characters similarly a adventurers. They're not heroes, they're adventurers. They're exploring a dungeon that appears to have no bottom. They they are traveling into elements and areas that have never been traveled before. They're looking for treasure. They're looking for this. They're looking for that. But what this show is unique is they are constantly coming across monsters and flora and fauna that are trying to attack them and kill them and all this stuff and when they s when they do and they win, one of their their um their warrior uh sets up and cooks it all. So there's it the show stops down for meal prep and eating. I've seen I've seen a clip from this. Wonderful. And cause he's like, you know, and I just take this the scorpion and I cut the tip off and it starts and it does all the film language of like master chef. One of those kind of like a like a cooking show. Becomes all of the film language of those shows. And it's awesome. Top chef Delicious Dungeon. There's a show called that I'm now ten episodes into that I feel like you guys would like, which is called Ascendants of a Bookworm. Oh my god. Well you have us from the title alone. It is about a woman who is like like I'm gonna say like a uh a 20-year-old woman, something like that. I think she's college or just out of college, librarian, obsessed with books, dies. Oh is re- this is the this is the the opening moments of the show, is reborn into a world without books. And the show is about her. No, no. She's also a child now. She's like five or six years old or something like that. But she still has the knowledge of a ma and she's in the the world is kind of like medieval almost, you know what I mean? Um so and there are no books, or there are so few books, and nobody knows how to read. She knows how to read, she can count, she knows numbers. So she's like a six-year-old who's like immediately like people are like, what's your deal, man? And she's just obsessed with making books and all about books and reading and stories. And it's terrific. So this is like Hamesh Patel telling everyone about the Beatles? That's very similar. Yes. Very similar. I mentioned a bunch of other stuff, but I'm gonna mention a couple of more things. Uh Gandhi Tartakovsky's uh Primal is like maybe the single best masterpiece of visual storytelling because there is no dialogue. Um it is just a caveman befriends a dinosaur uh it's as if it's his pet and they fight and it is just visually a masterpiece. You cannot believe what an incredible bit of visual storytelling uh the TV show Primal is. Um I'm gonna go away from animation for a brief moment here. Okay. Just because I think you guys will like this if you don't know it yet. Are you familiar with the Mark Gaddis show Bookish? Yes, yes, yes. I've not seen it. What do you think, Joanna Robinson, about Bookish? I love it. I'm obsessed with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Mark Gaddis. I think he's so funny. Same. I think it's great. It's worth seeking out. It is a Sherlock Holmes post-World War II detective show set in like a very post-World War II London, and Mark Gaddis working with the police to help solve mysteries. Great, great, great stuff. Um, and last but not least, I will ask you Joanna Robinson specifically, how do you feel about season 21 of Taskmaster? So is it is it seriously season 21? It is currently season 21 is airing. Ah, we call it Kamal season. It's the Kamal Nanjani season. Oh, yeah. Kumel. Um your season of Taskmaster season 19. Was one of the most important things that's ever happened in my life because you were a real crossover breakout into the US market of Taskmaster. Exactly. And I had friends that I was trying to get to watch Taskmaster for literally like uh eight years. Oh . And finally they watched it because A, it's a bit more accessible on YouTube now, and B, they're like, oh, Jason Manzuki's is on. I'll watch. Oh, I that's how I got friends to watch it. Who I couldn't get to watch. I had to be on it. This season is Manzukian. When we ran into each other at Mateo and you were like, Hi, Jordan Robinson, we're meeting each other face to face the first time. And I was like, I would like to now grill you about your experience on Taskmaster. Oh yeah. It hadn't even premiered yet. And I was like, well, tell me, does this happen on Taskmaster? And does this happen on Taskmaster? Um, this season is is really good. It's funny watching Kumale. Um , I feel like he's kind of trying to do what you did, but your energy is so distinct and his energy is so distinct that like it's reading completely different. Oh yeah. Well maybe I don''t know that hes trying to well he had I will say this, he had not seen mine when he did here. Okay. So because of when mine aired and when he shot, yeah, he is doing what he chose to do. Yeah. Um which I love because I think and I do and I don't think I'm wrong. I think Kamel would say this. I think Kamal wants to win. Oh, yes. I did not. Oh no, you just wanted to cause chaos. My whole thing was if I'm winning, I can't be doing my thing. Yes. And I I said as much to Alex. I said, listen, you cannot let me win because I then can't I have to be able to operate from behind. I my whole bit only works if I'm losing. As a taskmaster veteran, a veteran of the Taskmaster Wars. Maybe that is like the greatest the greatest reference of my I like the it was It was the greatest experience work wise. Yeah, go ahead. Um how do you feel about the egg bit in season twenty? I'm loving it. Yeah. I'm loving it. So okay, the premise of Taskmaster, right, is that uh these they assemble a panel of comedians and they have previously how how long ago do you tape the task? It depends season to season, but you're you know, like within within the previous six months, you've probably come for a couple of instances to shoot. You've been filmed to complete all of these tasks. Right. And then the show is ever the comedians assemble in studio and each episode they break up the tasks into like let's say five four or five tasks at a time and there's interstitial of the comedians in the studio. But once you get in the studio and this has happened a couple times some contestants will find out that there was a task that was only assigned to them and to no one else. And one of the panelists this season, this is the worst it's ever been because usually it's just like one task. Yeah. Oh, I had to like count all these Ps or whatever, and nobody else had to. And this season, he has been given an egg that he has to keep on his person at all times and not break it. So it's like hooked to him in this little like harness that he's like. But in the tasks he's got it built into his hat. Yeah, and it it has to uh when a signal is given, he has to be able to present his egg at any given moment. Within thirty seconds. But he is the only person in the entire show that has to be but he doesn't know that. What if he breaks it? What happens? What if he drops it? Who knows? Who knows? Here's the thing about Taskmaster. It's a big who cares. Yeah. It's he's not benefiting from it. He's not losing anything from it. But you feel like I gotta do this. I gotta do this. Alex tells me I have to do it, so I have to do it. So like it's such an elaborate he had to have an unbroken egg on him, the same egg at all allegedly at all times, and none of the rest of the contestants had to do it. Oh, it's so funny. And they it's this guy. It couldn't be a better person. Joel is he has the childlike wonder uh of a person. He's delighted to be there. He's having the best time. It's working, but I think it would have been if anybody else had gotten it, it would have been a much different story. One of my favorite could I agree, because they would have been like people can be like some people can be so specific task. I didn't get one. So my season didn't have a per one person get singled out task. It only happens every once in a while. There was one uh Mark uh had to eat text them every day and he did it for like a year.. Ye Yeahah. And then they were like, we had like an actual mental breakdown in the studio about it. Mark was like, you don't understand how much of my life has been spent doing this. It's so funny. I also love Joanna Page, who's on this season, uh, who I know from Gavin and Stacey, but like uh she's one of the Welshest people you'll ever meet. And there's just this like energy of a certain contestant where it's just like mom energy. It's like kooky. Rosie Ramsey and my C. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kookie mom energy. And they're just like just the blend of comedians that they get is so incredible. She does a thing that I love on a taskmaster season that happens only every once in a while. And I think because she is they are really letting her run with it or they're including her because she's so good. And also she does a thing where she just starts telling a story. Yeah. She just starts telling a story about her life. Yeah. And it's all about like this the time she clogged the toilet at her in-laws house and they had to get a plunger and this and that. So that gets her into and that's why I've brought a plunger here today. You know, and you're j her stories are so fantastic and she's so funny. And I don't know Gavin and Stacey. So, one of the things that I love about Taskmaster is it is for me an introduction to so many people that I previously either did not know or have only a cursory understanding of. I know what Gavin and Sta cey is, never seen it. I would say 90% of British comedians that I know, I know from, and they're like some of my favorite. Oh yeah. So like but Armando Innucci is like one of the panelists this season. And watching him do the goofiest stuff is so satisfying. My discovery from your season was Fatiya, who was like so funny. But similarly, like she could just start telling a story and you just like let her tell her story about her Batman bedroom or whatever it is and like like it's so incredible. We do cause you shoot for like we would shoot for like three and a half, four hours. Right. To be cut down into like forty five minutes. And a lot of it was just Fatiya telling stories that were so fucking funny that they would just let her go because it was like we were enjoying it so much. Yeah. Um great, great. I also feel that like uh because the UK SNL that just launched, they have like a couple former Taskmaster , yeah, on yet. MS CD is on there. And I'm just sort of like, I feel slightly ahead because I'm like, I know you're from Taskmaster. How exciting. Yeah. This season is great. I'll say if you're not a Taskmaster fan, start with season 19, of course. Uh then my uh my other favorite seasons would be five, seven, Sam Campbell. Oh Sam Campbell seasons. Five is Ashleen B. and Nishkumar and the legend Bob Mortimer. Oh my god, incredible. Uh seven is James A. Castor, Rod Gilbert and that crew. Absolutely. Uh Sam Campbell is fifteen or thirteen? No, I can't remember. Uh somewhere in those that run is Sam Camp, Australian comedian Sam Campbell, who is one of the most unique comedic voices I've heard in a decade. Cannot break him. Never been broken. Have you seen Last One Laughing? Yes, Last One Laughing is so Him and David Mitchell going head to head as and it like screaming in each other's faces, not laughing, is some of the most bananas stuff I've ever seen. They broke the show. Yeah. Season one of last one laughing laughing had my favorite duo, which is Bob Mortimer, who is a full genius, uh, and Richard Aowadi, who I think is the funniest person alive. And those two trying to break people and trying to team up and break p other people or break each other. Well, like watching Richard break, which never happens, but broke on that show. Yeah. Joe Wilkinson's one of my favorite of all time, who went through Taskmasters. Of course the potato es and laughing like oh my god the potato. The potato That's that's my favorite. That might be my favorite season. It's a great one. I mean what and that's two? What is that? That's it . Yeah. Um yeah this season I think is a great on Oh my god. I was just back in London and had lunch with my whole cast. We had the best time. The lunch lasted nine hours. It was crazy. Um can I just tell you, maybe to like get you uh into Jason's season of his his lure is not enough for you? Um, one of his co-panelists, Matthew Bayton, is wearing the shortest shorts that have ever existed. You pick one outfit. Like like Paul Meskell short short? Shorter. Did you watch British Ghosts? No. Okay. He's he's so funny. And like uh he other than you, he was the other person I was most familiar with on the show. Well he is like a super suit. Super famous. Yeah. But he's wearing you pick like an outfit and sometimes it's like a super weird outfit. You know, like Noel Fielding is uh, you know, like wearing that yellow boiler suit sort of thing. Phil Wang's wearing like the jumpsuit thing. The kill bill jumps. You pick like one thing to wear for all your tasks for like continuity reasons and stuff like that. Matthew picked the shortest shorts known to men, and some of these tasks make you like crawl around on the ground and do all this stuff, and they just had to like blur out his Oh his his nuts are fallen out constantly and he's the most embarrassed man. He is like he's mortified but is it's happening constantly. Those are short shorts. Oh boy. It's so funny. Oh they're they're a little too loose around the shape. Oh yeah, they're like runners shorts. That's why the nuts are just like constantly flopping out. Incredible. It's so funny. He was he made me laugh so hard. Um I'm s I'm so sorry. I could talk about taskmaster.. It It's's a great season a my season is probably the best season that's ever been. But um But uh but no, please everybody should watch Taskmaster. Uh start right now or and it's uh the the beauty of the show is all of it and in its entirety every episode is on YouTube for free. Yes. So you can access it immediately. It's great. I want to thank you for the recommendation on this show of Love Sick. Yes. Or Scrotal Recall. As I heard it was called. Yeah. I didn't. Fantastic. Oh my God. It's so obsessed. I mean I want, I desperately I think that me and Daniel Ng or Ing. Ng. Ngs? There's an S on the end. Oh, there is? Oh, okay. Right? Yes. I think he and I need to be in something together being being uh absolute lunatic. Do you feel like he kind of stole your your look, your swag, and I mean, he looks great. It's not my look. I thought he looked great though. It would have been a great laughing storm. If I could pull off a British accent. You know, I was asked to audition for uh The Lord of the Rings. Uh not the Lord of the Rings. Uh Rings of Power. Yeah. Asked to audition for Rings of Power with a z very specific British accent. I was told with this British accent. I was like, okay, great. So I hired a dialect coach. I did two sessions with the dialect co ach, like two hours each session. And at the end of the second one, she was like, I don't think you got it. And I was like, I agree with you. Can we hear it? Uh, not even remotely. You can't. No, because I can't do it at all. And I literally called my agents and I was like, yeah, you can turn it down. I'm no, there's just no way. We're not gonna get there. And truthfully, I was like, I'm I'm I I'm under water, you know, with that. I couldn't wrap my head around it Now I'm just devastated that we don't have you on Rings of Power. I know, right? Wouldn't that be funny? What if you would have gone in and just made a completely different choice? You could have been the megawatt . Yeah, if I'd done it as like a iterally . Exactly. Oh wow. The grand ier . The grandier of Middle Earth. Hey, uh Skaladio here. Yeah. Were you gonna be Hellbro Hellbrand with the big guys and dolls? I could do this. Oh man. What a what a treat this was. Oh my god. Come on. Well come back whenever you want me. Whenever you want me. I mean there's so many things to talk about. Yeah, we don't w wantanna I mean we you back for Shadow Lord Season Two, but we don't wanna wait. No, let's we can do it before that. Yeah. We've got stuff on the horizon. What I mean, you bring me in whenever you want. What are you most excited for the rest of this year when the nerds arrive. That's a good question. What's in the hot Dominic? Summer, fall. We've got the Odyssey coming, we've got a Spider-Man movie, we've got hot D, which you already said eat shit hot D. I'm super excited for the Odyssey. Lanterns. Lanterns, I'm genuinely curious about. Lanterns is one that for me, I'm like, it could go great, or it could be kind of just a whatever. You know, if it's a whatever, that's disappointing. But if it works and it, but it I'm a little nervous. I will say I'm a little nervous. But I I I I have high hop es. Star Wars is I'm always looking for more Star Wars . Um but boy, it's tough. You know, it's tough out here. Uh now that Andor's over, it's tough out here to be looking forward to Star Wars stories right right now. Um I still wish we would get the Damon's uh original script, the Lakeith Stansfield uh Protestant Reformation inside of Force, yeah. Um there's a lot that I want I want Star Wars to do that I just don't think I mean I'm still waiting for Dark Disciple, I'm still waiting for a Quinlan Voss appearance. Um there's people and stuff that I'm interested in , but uh nothing right now that I'm like, ah, I can't wait for them to do this. You know, because it doesn't seem like they wanna do this. Where are you in the other DC stuff? You excited for Supergirl, Clayface, Supergirl, I'm super excited for I loved that book. I thought that book was incredible. So I'm very excited for that just conceptually. I think if that if they do a good job adapting that book, I think it's great. I'm excited. I mean, I'm very much enjoying James Gunn's D C. Yeah. So from the from uh creature commandos to Superman, like uh uh TV, film, like I think so far I'm very satisfied. Um Marvel Yeah, where's your doomsday hype? Do you do you check the countdown clock every single day? I don't. I don't know jack about doomsday. Uh I'm like out. It's not that I'm out. What about the vision show? I'm very excited about that. Super curious. Yeah. Of course I'm super curio us about what that'll be. Because I think they are what I oh and let me be clear. I loved Wonder Man. Yeah. I thought Wonder Man was terrific. In a way that I was like, do this. Yes. Just don't worry about the larger stories or the multiverse or the this or the that. Just tell me a story about characters. Give me a slice of life. And I mean I really appreciate it also that it was like out of work, struggling actors in Hollywood, like so much of it rang true. But trying to do a self-tape. Oh my God. It was so good. And I think he's dining. A new LA resident. Joey Pants' house. Yeah, oh my God. So funny. And I thought he was so good. Uh Yehya or Yahya? Yeah. Yaya. Thank you. I thought he was so good. And then Flip, I'm watching him now in the um Man on Fire series, which is he's incredible in that in a completely different lane. I thought he was fantastic in ambulance. I think he's great, but like the one-two punch in this year of uh Wonder Man and Man on Fire are incredible. This guy is fantastic. Because Wonder Man is so he was so stealthily like funny and you know, like how seriously he took himself was so funny. And then I imagine Man on Fire is not a laugh a minute. Not at all. It's just uh action shoot 'em up, you know. It's based on the movie. It's, you know, it's a prequel for the Denzel character in that movie. And it's fantastic in that way that like all of the uncle shows that I watch. Right. Your Boshes, your Your your justified, your you know, all those shows that I you're I I I I will shout out the best show on television that nobody's watching or talking about. I don't think you guys would cover it, but I'm still shocked that the watch isn't covering it. Is Darkwind. Um is the Tony Hillerman books is unreal. I think this show McLaren is unbelievable. Yeah. That single episode of Westworld, I was like, what the A keepita, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All of his stuff in Fargo, unreal. And this show, he is exceptional. Yeah. And should be winning every award if awards mattered, which they don't. Right. But he is electric to watch in this show. And the show is phenomenal. Which season was Robert Robert Redford showed up for like Him and George R. Martin are in a prison cell in season three, at the beginning of season three. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's great. It's that show, I think, is a absol utely phenomenal watch. Uh and a world that is just every season they are excavating more and more of these stories and more and more of these characters and it is and servicing a procedural kind of , you know, who done it every time. And it's awesome. Excellent. Made Chris and Andy talk about it. These fucking idiots. I thought they st they started with that too. Did they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know if they kept kept up with it, but I know they started okay they bought it would feel worse if they hadn't started or they had and they hadn't told you by the way the ladder because it took me a couple of years to get Chris to watch Shores y. I re recommended it so many times because of sports. Yeah. I was like, I think you'd like this. It's sports. Have you heard of sports? This show does it, but Canadian. Um Jason, thank you so much. This was such a treat. Such a pleasure. This is one of my absolute favorite shows. I listen to you guys I spend so many hours a week with you both in my ears. It is truly a absolutely wonderful to be here. Thank you for having me. Here's my last question for all of us. Uh Lamar Morris, uh Emmy Emmy winner, Lamar Morris. Uh-huh. Fantastic in this. Jake Johnson incredible. Yep. In the Spider Verse movies. What is Max Greenfield's uh to round out the new girl. Which peer should he be? Which spider project is for him? That's a great question. Boy. Hmm. Hobbitsandragons at gmail.com. Yeah. Sony, are you listening? Put Max Greenfield in a spider joke. Let's figure it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He deserves it. He'd be great. Yeah, you would. Oh, yeah. Uh thank you, Jason. You're the best. Come back soon. And thank you not only to Jason, obviously, for being such a wonderful guest today. What a treat this This was was. thank you to the rest of the crew: Carlos , Scott, Jacob, CT, Arjuna, Jomie, the whole gang helping us out as always. Uh, we will be back next week for an already out of date, but still sincerely enthusiastic 2026 summer hype meter. Joe will have a Lestat primer and a fictional musical bands episode. It's more of like a fictional bands episode. Less Lestat primer, more a very musical house episode. Priming you for the mood of watching Sam Reed as Lestat, correct, sing while covered in scars on stage. Correct. And we'll be talking about it. Did you go to the concert? It's no. Next week, right? Next week. Oh, it hasn't happened yet. Okay, okay. She'll be there in spirit. Alright, come back soon. It's it's too big to hold with one hand. That's what you know what this is for exactly. It's the people who do the memes about like they read a line from romanticy and it's like it was so big. I couldn't hold it in one hand. And then they're holding like a jar of pickles. And it's like that can't that's not a thing. That's what this water bottle is like. And then the straw is not soft and supple. It's like really hard to find out. Okay, now it's trending back to romantic . Isn't it all soft supple straw? I that's how it should be. It's rock hard and not in a good way . By the way, what? Karma. Not karma. I think I think I think Joanna's water bottle just came. Time comes for us all. Joanna's water bottle is so horny from your water bottle. What the fuck just happened? Wow. This is what House of Ours all about. Can someone come help, please? We need my laptop. This is in the show, right? I'm assuming this better all be