The Shadow of the Joker

Hello, welcome back to House of Ar. I'm Joana Robson. that's Mallellie Rubin, and joining us today att L last, we've long wanted this to happen. It is Eric Vos. Hi guys. Hi. H to Va. Welcome. Thank you for having me on. And this is a huge honor to be in the House of R. And what a house it is U you love our studio. I love your studio. You love us. I love you guys. You love Bane? I love Bane. I mean, how could you not when he places that hand on your shoulder something happens's saying that it's like this What is that? I don't know. It'll conveys everything It'll locks hope inside of you so that he can crush it into despair. We're talking about the Dark Knight Rises and we'll do that right after this This episode of House of A is presented to you by Target For thirty years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together And Target is calling all trainers to the celebration That's because there's something for every era of fan in the Pokemon and Target limited time colloection. Thought you found them all after the first drop Think again two just landed featuring life sized Pokemon puzzles and an instant print digital camera. The entire collection is in store And online. so check it out now. Explore now at target. com This summer, Fandoo is the best place to bet on goals. Inluding equalizers, Uhuh Voallys? Yep, headters. Every goal is worth more on fanool. So let there be goals New customers get three hundred and fiftyion bonus bets guaranteed when you bet five dollars for seven days. twenty one plus in present and select states. First online real money wager only, minimum five dollars wager required for seven consecutive days. five dollarars first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus betets, which expires seven days after receivt. Restrictions applies, see full terms at famoolot com slash sportsbook. Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred my reset program reminders before we get started, House of the Dragon season. It's upon us. Are you excited? Oh, I'm so excited. I've seen the first episode as of this recording. And you're locked in. I'm locked in I'm seated. It's gonna be great U Battle of the Gullet. I can't say too much without spoiling it, but it's just a kid from a Navy family. A really appreciating the nautical tactics? O. You've spent two years saying to the Gllet on the morrow and now it will last. S on the morrow. Morrow is here. We'll be talking thrones with Chris Ryan Sunday night's right after the episode drops. We'll be deep diving on Tuesday and a little listat meat in the sandwich on Mondays. is sort of the upcoming Supergirl coming up. It's going to be a busy, busy summer here in the House of Mar Do you want to tell people about the announcement we just made about Yeah during the end of? You can find really long announcements on the prior podcast on our respective social media handles The Baltimore Orial is my favorite team my hometown team is hosting House of ourur Night at Orerialburg and Camden Yards this summer. Ist that insane? Guess who's thing out the first pitch of the game. Yeah. August twentieth again the New York fucking Yankees House of ourur Night at Camden Yards. Here is what that entails. Pregame live pod. We will be recording a live episode of House of A. Join us for that. If you get a ticket, you get to come to the live show. Also, that ticket is to sit in a special special section just for the bad babies. Pure Wager million. You get to watch the game with us, you get to hang with us, you get to hang out with you. You get to understand how little I know about baseball. And I will be throwing out the first pitch. You get to watch me hopefully not fall over, hopefully not spike the ball directly into the ground, working on my shoulder dexterity, keeping the UCL intact, you know Some exit V low and spin rate prep. So half the tickets were gone within the first couple hours of them going tets now O Orioles d. com slash house of our. We hope to see you in Baltimore, Maryland's august twentieth against the New York Yankees for House of our night camp truly bizarre. Bonkers. truly bizarre. That's gonna be great. Oh God. Okay, so that's what we're doing this summer. my God. follow, you know, follow the pod. Yes. foollow us on social ad H ofar. whyy not? Do it. email us Hoppins and dragons atdemmail. com. That's right. Spoiler warning for All of Batman. Yes. any Nolen film ever And any Batman, anything ever? anythingything ever. I mean, I don't know how relevant that's going to be today honestly. but. So it's happening in an olden movie all of Tom Hardy's acting choices in his life on the table U ye, you know, so that's that's wor. fantastic. Wonderful. Boss, anything you want to plug? Yeah, people know. M people know. Just subscribe to newew Rock stars on YouTube. Yeah. We're covering a lot of the same stuff. We're not doing any Listot coverage unfortunately. No. You didn't want to like get fangs and like o c I wanted to. I wasn't accepted into the cult. you could join our vampire coven any. Youc anytime. Joanna has fangs in her purse right now. I actually have some too. I haven't molded them to teeth, but we're prepared toite you. We're preared convert you if you'd like The offer stance, Keep it in mind. I think maybe we shouldn't offer to bite our guest on the first time on the pod. Why are we celebrating The great conversion is a fast a. We arere here to celebrate Christopher Nolan becausees we've done almost every other movie. That's right. We have one left after this, It is Oppenheimer. Yeah. That's the last one we're doing. Bute we did it in a random mortder? Very Nolan esque No nonlinear. No worries. Yeah, we're pretending that was the plan all along. Mad. It is thirty one days until the Odyssey. That is wild. Are you excited for the Odyssey? I'm really excited for the Odyssey. Aain, as the son of a Navy kid nautical tactics. It growing. Oh my Godd, it's big se summer. I'm pumped for the Odyssey. I think the Odyssey and Dune partart three are the two most highly anticipated films of the year for me I mean, everything I've seen from the Odyssey, even the music just sounds gorgeous. The prop design of the movie. I mean, isn't it great when it feels like movies have everyone in Hollywood in them? Oppenheimer felt that way. Only certain directors can get that and maybe Villeuve Filbert Nolan Yeah, and I'm just, it's great. It feels like a momentous thing. Even if it is like kind of a downer of a movie or not going to appeal to all four quadrants. like How could it not, I guess? L it's the Odyssey. It's the three thousand year old legend and it's popular for a reason. Yeah. he's gonna do something really weird with it. What if it doesn What if like children of all ages go to see the Odyssey this summer? What if it It's a date night movie. obsession Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. Where are you on pining for a daddy? Where are you on the memes aly, the modern language. We're all in I'm not. What does this mean? P's the p the patences in line pining for a dadd. Oh Mallory has been name to talk about is like dad and then Patence is like, Daddy and everyone's like, what? Everyone'sad. You don't imagine ancient It fw. Wait tt I saw the guit. I don't have a problem with dad or daddy. I think it's a little weird that Nolan directed these English actors to use American accents as opposed to the Chernobyl approach of just using your natural accents. Right I w to know like why do they need to sound like Americans? Doid they all have to match Matt Damon and Matt Damon can't do the English accent?. And so they're like, let's align with Damon can't really do the American accent. Hudinson can do everything. guuess what? Hudinson Tom Hardy, two of our greatest voice choice makers in showed us all of those everything things in Mickey Stone Okay Quick facts about this movie that we're talking about today It The Dark Knight Risees in case you forgot. Directed by Chropher Nolan scenplay by Jonan Nolan and Chris Nolan with a story byide credit for David S. Goyer who left to makeake Man of Steel. Basically july sixteenth, twenty twelve is when it came out in wide release. The budget was between two hundred and fifty and three hundred million dollars. Worldwide box office one point one one five billion with a bee. Wow. More than the Dark Knight And yet somehow was not really like considered I mean, the Avengers came out this year and it kind of kind of swallowed the story a little bit of the Dark Knight Rises. for me. Yeah did. Not for you. It is crazy. I forget that it outperformed the two thousand eight Dark Kightight because that was the first superhero movie to make a billion dollars billy, I think. But we often see that. The second movie of the superhero trilogy is better. The third one is not as good, but makes more Yeah it makes money. exactly. They need to know how it ends and they need to be with Bane Those two things are just true. Okay, Mallory's on her band agenda already. We love to see it. Let's talk about the swollen runt times of the Batman trilogy. Okay. Batman begins one hundred forty minutes. The Dark Night, one hundred and fifty two minutes. The Dark Night risees one hundred and sixty four minutes. That's two hours and forty four minutes. Y. And it's actually not a runtime. you might be inclined to think maybe twenty of those minutes are credits. That's actually not the case. No. L like seven or eight minutes of credits. Listen, our podcasts are routinely three hours long Sometimes they're four. Who are we to note a runtime? However, it is a different experience. Soper medium. I think we're allowed to note it. Yeah. Any thoughts about the runtime in this movie? I think Christopher Nolan just makes movies this big and he feels like he wants to have as long as he needs to tell his story. I do think you feel it with this movie I don't feel it watching The Dark Knight. I do feel it with rises and maybe it's just There's other logic issues. He gives you, he surpasses the ten things that, you know, I have a theory that as a filmmaker, you can afford under ten, single digit refrigerator logic, huh? Like wait, huh? But if you win us over with enough of those scenes, ten or more of those things, you don't really care about those nine or eight things Dark Night Rises has like twelve or thirteen where you're like, hm, but how did he How did he know, but You know, so in a movie like that, you do feel two hours and forty minutes. Is one of those? Is that how you heal a broken back? You just hang guys b of the vertebraatee. And then you make them do a bunch of push upps. Is that how that works? N not a chiropractor. N to less. Not a chiropractor Yeah, this is I enjoyed Watching this movie and prep for this podcast, I watched it twice. I had a good time with it But I just remember at the time people were really hard on it. That's my memory of when this movie came out. I feel like that I have a different memory of it, which was like obviously anything in the wake of Dark Knight can't possibly measure up. and certainly in the wake of like ledger specifically, the bar is just like so impossible to clear. My personal experience with this was like I saw this movie multiple times in theaters, so I think the runtime didn't feel prohibitive to me because I kept going back not only to see it, but to sit in a movie theater and see it.ight. So I really liked it Andally your best friend Bane. My best friend Bane, who I just really enjoy watching in this movie, I think it's great. Very entertaining, genuinely, very entertaining. I don't think the movie is even close to as good as Dark Knight, obviously, but there are things in it to recommend it and that I like. There are things in it that like really don't work. It's very bloated. character to your point about like, isn't it fun when everyone is in this movie This can sometimes feel like the opposite where you're like, wait, I actually forgot that these like but like twenty five people are in this movie, right? And the character list is so vast and so long The strands, you know, I think the opening sequence is very emblematic of you're like, wait, I'm kind of like confused already and did I need to be, right for the response to people. But I think that the reaction to the movie like I think was decently reviewed at the time. likeike it was pretty well reviewed. The trilogy overall, though I think that's part of it. That's inextricable It is just like closing and concluding a trilogy that is so well regarded and there being a lot of like admiration for that at the time, mayaybe that makes it a little harder in the moment to discern how people felt about the movie. I feel like over time now people are more inclined to be like, this is like a meme movie as opposed to like a sacred text. but Your mage be vary and that's okay. I think Bane is u Guinely. Boss, where are you in this movie Um I love Christopher Nolan's works. I'm a defender of even his weakest moments. This one is harder for me to revisit Be I do feel that it it is engulfed by the shadow of the predecessor for sure. It is over bloated and it feels like you can see Christopher Nolan's seams. You can see the machinery of his workings and you can see everyone working really hard in this movie to make something great. But I don't want to see people working. I want to see people vibing existing living, reacting, you know, but it feels like, God, why are we all working so hard? We have Batman. We're in the world of the dark Kight. Like it shouldn't be this hard. So I remember watching this. I got like a midnight screening at the the Howard Hughes Center AMC because that was like the biggest screen I could find it on. and I like I got the massive mellow yellow a drink that I've never had since. and I had to use the bathroom in the middle of the movie, but I'm like, o no, I can't. I can't walk out. I'll never do that. And then so that affected my viewing experience the whole time. I'm like, come on, come on. But I still think it's wonderful. I think it has a lot of like Nolan core in it. I love Anne Hathaway's performance in it U yeah. she owns the movie for me, honestly. I'm just like I'm a huge everyvery version of Catwoman, Well Almost sorry, Halleberry. Almost every version of Cat woman I'm like all in Michelle Feier Selena Kyle is one of my all time top like favorite movie performances of all time, let alone comic book movie performances. and I just think in Hathaway is oundingly great in this movie. It just like owns every scene that she's in and greats wonderful.. Yeah, we love Zoey Krabits, but like brings a ton of just like humor and moxie and all of these other things to this movie, which can sometimes get you know, between Bane and Talia and I would say even like John Blake can like feel a little bit more L in than some of the other Batman installments, you know, when you've got Killian Murphy' sort of antic performance in the first one or when you have an extremely antic performance from Heath Ledger in the second one. and then here you've just got like, They're like, we're doing Charles Dickens this time. That's what we're doing. And Anne Hathway just has to like carry a lot of the sort of momentum and keeping things lively inside of this movie. You mentioned you're a huge Chrisher Nolan fan. You've done these incredible video deep dives on his filmography. Have you done every single one at this point? Um, I think I've done videos about Everyone accept some of the early ones. I haven't done a video about following or the prestige, but I've And then I think the last time I visited The Dark Knight Rises was like back in two thousand eight. I did a very recent breakdown of like rebreakdown of Oppenheimer and Memmento and Tenet and the Dark Knight. So I just haven't had that need to revisit speent time of Bane? Itent time of Bane in a ninety minute YouTube analysis. I plan to at some point. I love all of his films, honestly. Like I find a way into all of his films. I am a Nolan bro. I can't escape that. but I don't want to be the bad kind of Nolan bro. I want to be I want to reclaim the phrase Nolan bro as something that doesn't have to be gender coded one and doesn't have to be as u M I don't know, talking down to people on YouTube. I think all of his movies already do that enough that we don't need accollytes on social media to do it on behalf of the movie. Yeah. So But yeah, my favorite of his films is probably interstellar. I just think that's singular achievement. U And I can even look at a movie like The Dark Knight Rises and really appreciate that he's trying to do Dickens in the world of Gotham, that he has this strong take on class warfare and wants that to be the backdrop. It's fascinating to revisit this movie and just feel the citizens united decisions being commented on on Occupy Wall Street being an influence and how prophetic it was for J six. Like just it's fascinating to see how plugged in he was to populism revisiting this movie. And I appreciate the ambition of the film, even if the execution does not make it a great Batman movie What do you think makes it not a great? be like what is that distinction for you To me, a good Batman movie is someone who is a film that understands the core DNA of the Cape Crusader. as only I understand it. And No, I want a good detective story.. I want some I want a story that understands that there is a rogues gallery out there. And I think with the decisions made with Bane and Catwoman and linking Bane with the League of Shadows and Talia Al Ghl., it's not a bad decision from a story structure standpoint. And in fact, it makes more sense in a lot of ways, but it neglects the promise of a rogues gallery that's really running this city I love that idea that Nolan seemed to even be fascinated by by the final shot of Batman Begins, of the Joker callalling card. I'm like, that's what a good Batmanvie is. I think Batman Begins is a superior Batman film to the Dark Knight Rises I just think I don't need every filmmaker to read every comic. I don't need every filmmaker to use a comic as kind of a checklist or a rubric. I much prefer a Nolan movie to a comic book movie. I think at the end of the day But I do think that Nolan is just more interested in the themes and the symbols in the union archetypes of Batman as a character as opposed to the relationship he has with real Oddball villains and how he has to adapt to each of those villains and kind of drrink their crazy kool aid in order to beat them. And you don't see that. He just kind of outmuscles Bane in this movie, you know, And it works in this movie. He does a lot of pushups. And a lot of hanging from a robe Yeah, you stretch that You gotta stretch that. do you think this is successful as a Batman movie versus a Nolan movie? orr what do you think? Well, I think it's like impossible to separate the two in the sense that the Nolan version of a Batman movie is a Nolan movie ultimately, which is, you know, so just another another version of what you're saying, I think, and the question of how well that works for like hardcore Man fans is I guess, I mean, I think a lot of people love this trilogy and the respective ranking of where rises or begins goes in the two three slot because I think for everybody, Dark Knight is number one, right? That's probably the debate is a two three. I don't know. I think the things that Nolan is interested in in Batman and Bruce and Gotham and the relationship between Batman and the Joker or Batman and Bane He's picking the aspects of a Batman story that are part of the core Batman text, right? And I think fit in a version of a Batman story. But he's picking the ones that are interesting to him. Like the things we've been tracking across the whole repisitation of the filmography, right? Like the dark mirrors, the measuring stick men, the way that you have a sense of what duty you owe to a place or what a place says about you You know, a scene like the one of our categories is the great the Great Man like obsession, right? And there have been a couple movies that we remove that from, but none of the Batman None of the Batman. And so like that's something that is a core text for Nolan and Bruce as a character and Batman as a symbol, I think really unlocks. So I think he's just identifying the aspects of the Batman canon that most interest specifically, even like a conversation in this film and Rises, like the one between Blake and Gordon You know, like I hope one day when you have that moment, like you have a friend like I did, right? The idea that the structure of systems and rules We will fail you. Like That's part of that's that's an that's an insomnia, that same idea way back when well before Batman, but also it's like something that You understand why Nolan would be interested in a vigilante story But for that reason. I agree with you but to your point, I think by the time you get the end of this trilogy, it becomes much more a Gotham City trilogy than it does become a Batman trilogy and the way in which like systems fail you, the way in which various infrastructure of the city are weaponized against it, like the train in Batman begins or the system that is used here, he bec you know, using a tale of two cities, not just any Dickens story. We're doing a tale of two cities. like let's examine the layers of this city and the various figures in the city and the lies that are required to keep a city going or what that what happens when they're exposed. I do think the politics of this movie are kind of ' very muddy to me. It's interesting because like I was watching this and I was the first I was re watchatching it, I was like to people Do people think the message of this movie is that revolutions are bad and A lot of people do think that. But then you talk to any of the Nolan brothers who worked on this and they're like, that's not what we think. We don't think that. We think we're telling the story of a demagogue and why it is bad to have a bane and then eventually a Trump like figure feeding, stoking the fires of populism in one direction, promising something while all the while planning to blow up that bomb anyway, you know So I don't know, what do you think in terms of like H interest in this idea of a city and how it is reflected in this trilogy. I think this trilogy is superior in the regard of that it's the best Gotham story that we've seen on screen. Nothing against the Fox show. Rary you are typing. I like he Nolan did an amazing job of I don't know. Is it synecticy is the word? Snic of making Gotham a living breathing character who can kind of turn on a dime. The soul of that city is the most important soul to this trilogy. It's not Um It's not the texture of the city, I think is not my favorite Gotham that I've seen on screen. That would either be the eighty nine Art Deco Gotham or the twenty twenty two Matt Reeves I love Gam. It's beautiful and rainy in a way that these three films are not. Nothing again getst the Snow Flurries, which I love in this film. But to answer your question Yeah, I think it's like I think that Nolan, a textual reading of the Dark Knight Rises tells you that that was not the point. I don't think he was he was taking any kind of political stance on on the mob mentality of a French revolutionary state U I don't think like if you literally read it, you see that Bane is a con man that he is Yeah He's manipulating these mobs to act a certain way Um Wonder then what exactly the battle lines are in the final conflict. Who is there fighting the cops? And I don't think the film itself really answers the question of how many of Selena Kyle's you know, L Vibo him friends Yeah are there lining up with those bane mercenaries. How many of them are bllackaate prison escapees Selina was one of those bllack g prisoners. Yeah. It's just the lines are kind of unclear of what this movement is really made up of. And similarly, we had some judgment of things like o Occupy Wall Street, where that was a big movement that had a lot of competing interests in there And you know like a coc like you know that happens at the end of twenty eleven. This film is already basically made. And so this comes out like wow, we're still thinking about occupy Wall Street but it was like a real coincidental moment. But to your point, like when you watch this in twenty twenty six and you see an ocean of cops beating an ocean of citizens And you're supposed to be rooting for the cops, like that's a harder watch for me in twenty twenty six. know. I don't think no one could have predicted that you know, public sentiment towards At least police fighting bare knnuckle in the street. What that would look like.. I think the movie is easier to watch in twenty twenty two and after than it is twenty sixteen and after I think it's easier to identify with those poor Capitol pololice who had to fend off january sixth protesters. and it is whatever the public perception of cops was in twenty sixteen. Yeah yeah. I think the Gotham, just that general question and point about like this is a really a Gotham trilogy, I agree I really agree, but I think that it feels to me less about Gotham than like specifically actually Gotham thenen the relationship between a place and its people Right kindind of to your point of like, does this feel like Gotham? Does it look like Gotham? When you pan out we have these beautiful aerial shots, it's just obviously Manhattan. We're just at Heines field for the se. This is always like the case. they're filming in Chicago. likeike, no, no, but I disagree because in the first two seasons the first seasons, the first two films, it's Chicago. And Chicago dress up, especially in the first one when you get the narrows it gets Chicago dressed up to look like a combook city. And then when he just decides in this movie to make it New York and Philly and downtown Los Angeles you know, to try to make the idea of the city sort of feel bigger. so you can get the shots of the bridges being blown up and stuff like that. But I just feel like of a sudden I feel like I'm in a different city and if if You know, yeah, Christian Bale is still playing Batman and a lot, you know, Lucius Fox is still here and Alf is still here, but this does not look like the Gotham that we spent to That's what I'm saying Yeah. That's what'm saying So it feels less like Gotham, Gotham, Gotham is this clearly fully realized and rendered character that is very comic booky or specific to a certain like story universe and were just like American city and what does it mean to be a philanthropist or a businessman or a vigilante or a cop or a jewelie for any person in that place who has to make a decision about what your relationship to it is? What does it mean to grow up in a boy's home on those streets? What does it mean to be a younger brother of an older brother who pold into those tunnels for work and like you know that that's happening, but other people don't like One of the more interesting threads movie to movie about Gotham is And we, you know, I think in a movie that we love and admire, The Dark Knight, we spent a good chunk of our Dark Knight Pod talking about like the ending of that movie and the choice that Bruce makes, like, is that the right choice? and does it make sense, right? And the way that that those tendrils connect in this film, the dent act and you open with this like completely farcical portrait of a city free of organized crime for eight years and the streets were cleaned up and this and that and it's like commentary on delusion is unfolding in a place where people believe that that's real, right? But like Bane has an entire operation going under their very buildings and their street and has laced the concrete that holds the structure of the city and placeac the bones of the city with explosives that he can blow at any point and they don't even know it's happening. So I think that assessment you know, political the political apparatus of a city and the machine of a city and stuff like that is obviously really interesting to Nolan. And then the, you know, conversations that like Alfred and Bruce have about and Bruce has with Blake in this movie and you, Rachel, L last movie, everything like What can one person do in the face of that? What is their right? What do you owe a city? It's interesting, Jonathan Nolan when he talks about Batman, because Jonathan Nolan, who considers himself a staunch progressive. gets stressed out when people say the Dark Knight is pro Bush era surveillance and gets stressed out when when people say this is an anti occupyied Wall Street sort of message. he's like, Th those are my politics. He was like, we tried very carefully to keep our politics out of this because we feel like he's like, I don't mind injecting my politics into other things I do, but when you're handanded Batman like you you want to make it about Batman and you don't want to make it about like your politics. But like he's like Batman's kind of a fascist. Like that's not no'ake on this. Like that's the other side of the blade of vigilante justice, right? is like the richest man in Gotham has decided what is right and what is wrong and he is going to make that decision on his own. And the way in which like the mob mentality, when you get the kangaroo courts Shout out my guy, Jonathan Crane, killing it as always. But like when you get the hangry courts of Banes's Revolution, it's like, how different is that from It is different, but like How different is it really from Batman just unilaterally deciding what is right and what is wrong? Yeah, and the fact that when Bruce is removed from that place, actually does Trumble without him and is twelve hours away from blowing up by the time he gets back Atlasformation Yeah, exactly. It's interesting that all three of these movies kind of treat the decision to become Batman and exercise Batman's crime fighting as a kind of sin, as a kind of necessary evil. U Rather than a virtue, rather than something that's cool, Rather than something that like, it wouldn't it be cool if we had our richest recluse fighting crime in the streets. It's like Alfred confronts that. He's like, I didn't want you to come back to Gotham after what happened to your parents. I think you should hang it up. I think it's bad. I mean, the second film says this is the kind of insanity that you inspire by going around as a figure. I find that interesting because it's saying that like, I think that's Jonathan Nolan saying that We shouldn't be encouraging are billionaires to take everything on their shoulders. We should get a very strong man to break their back, to discourage that kind of behavior. Like it seems to reject vigilantism by letting Matthew Modeine lead cops, uniformed police officers to fight our battles for us. I think that's him trying to reconcile all these complex things. But I do think if you show a large group of people in a city that are being affected by things happening in it, you can't help but politics come in conversation. How do you keep it out of it? Yeah You did I like did my best impression of an English major to like delineate the Tale of To Cities influences. And then I did watch your video last night and I was like, o, Eric did an even better job it. So do you want to talk about the Tale of T Cities comp at all? L what's interesting about that to you? or what I find it what I find interesting about it is it is a Tale of Two Cities and they te They address it actual text that Gordon says in his eulogy. But it's a city that we both have to share. It's like it's not geographically separated. It's a city that is Well, I guess in this film, it is above ground and below ground, but ultimately it's a cohabitated space and it speaks to different perspectives of the people have to share these same buildings and streets And I like that idea that kind of blindness between these characters. Like I like that it is a tale of two Gothams in this story u in that like people are U J experiencing that Gotham in completely different ways. And I love that. I love that Selen is Gotham is completely different than Bruce is Gotham. I love their slow dance and how he has these assumptions that she completely rips apart. I love how personal it is between the two of them when she steals his mother's pearls and how important those pearls are to the Wayne family U and I love seeing it all fall apart I don't know. What were your guys's reactions to the Dickens element Malie, any thoughts? I mean, I think this is like again, it's interesting to think, as it always is with Nolan films of like the through line across his work, where like he when he tends to find inspiration into text or even actively incorporate like a passage that Gordon's reading, it reminded me a little bit of like the recurring Dyan Thomas refrain in your favorite movie and Instellar, right? where like I think that Nolan he's not literally using these as epigraphs. It's not a quote that opens the film, like it's the first page of a book, but he's kind of using them in similar fashion, right? whereere they're there to clarify tone and intent to us, right? And I think that that For some people probably feels a little clunkier than for others when a character is like literally reading it and telling you this is going to be the map that the story operates against. minded and I think like especially when it's a character like Gordon in this film who we know is wrestling with his personal guilt and complete like he's complicit in this, right? And he did it at the time for a reason, not one that made sense, but he did it for a reason that he had at the time. And then he has to like, you know, when he goes up at the And the opening instruction is like, you know, and he's got the letter in his hands that ultimately Bane will very dramatically read He's like, is this the moment? You know, and you wonder how many moments like that he's had on those eight years? Is that ping disclosure dayay for either of you? when Baine was turn on the camera, he's like, Gordon wrote this letter, and I'm like, says who Prove it. It works. What do you mean? work? Somehow the prisoners through the other side of these multiple walls can hear thisash and react to it also using broadcast news instead of the interternet, you know. But I was like What do you mean you just read a letter? Like where's the handwriting analysis? What are you talking about here? Yeah, so we've got Gordon's eulogy, which is sort of like cobbled together lines from the end of Tale of two Cities. We've got characters like Stryver and Barad who are named for characters in Tale of two Cities But my favorite is Bane knitting at the trials, which is this Madame Defarge at the guuillotine sort of reference what I thought was really interesting. So they have this like high minded we did Dickens in Gotham. David Goyer gave an interview quite recently where he's like, you know what the dirty secret of the Dark Knight Rises is Actually Rocky three. He was like, actually we also did Rocky three alongside of the Dickas and he sort of like lays out the beats and you're like Aa. So, um You know, all of these things can coexist. And that' that's the Nolan, which is the sort of like high minded we're doing great literature, we are doing high philosophy, We're doing all of that. in the popcorn bucket of, you know, like Gen pop cinema. Yeah. How important is it, do you think to Nolan and his brother that The average viewer understands the Dickens connection I think it' more important to Jonathan than it is to Chris personally. Yeah. It's his way into the story. It's his way to kind of structure the themes of the story. And without that he doesn't have a way in. But it's just interesting that it seems it's literally referenced through Easter eggs in the movie, but like how Maybe five percent of people ever really notice or discover that. Right. Yeah. As I've said in every of these podcasts, Nolan is one of my favorite filmmakers. I just adore his movies. I don't think that anyone who made tenet necessarily cares what every audience member is able to understand about their movie. Yeah Yeah. Well, I think that yeah, that definitely changed over time. All right, let's talk about the what I'm calling the curse of the overstuffed threequel. You know, this is we're still sort of like riding the waves of bad reputation of Spiderm Man three when like the main critique of that movie was you put too many villains in your third movie coming off of the high of the second movie. And so when you have Bane and Selena Kyle and Talll Ghoule and Robin. We're introducing Cat Woman and Robin and Bane and Talll Ghoule all in this. and it's not like the other films didn't, you know, like, you've got Raz All Gl and the Scarecrow in the first movie. It's not like we're we haven't done double triple duty before It just feels like a lot here. We'll sort of talk about each of these characters, but I do love the conversation that they had at the time where The studio wanted them to do the Riddler. And Jonathan Owen has said that he even sort of like wrote out some treatments of what the third movie with the Riddler would be m But what they all agreed was that it was just too close to the Joker and they didn't want to the Joker. But he but he says there's an execut Warner Bothers who after I think at like the Dark K Night Pmiere or something like that was like, Leonardo DiCaprio is the riddler, right? Let's do it, you know? And they really wanted DiCaprio this movie. and u And instead they landed on Bain, among other things, as this sort of like big Physical threat Mallor Rubin. Yes. Would you like to give us your treatise on Bane and why you love him so? I just think it's an incredibly entertaining performance. It's like genuinely really, really fun to watch. I think the voice choice that Hardy makes as Bane is completely insane and like I offer no explanation or defense of it, but I say unapologetically that I love it. I you know, this is obviously like part of a stretch of films where we got to spend a lot of time on the internet wondering why Tom Hardy didn't want to show his face in a movie and like was going to mumble basically indecipherably and inaudibly through a large part of the film ivating deivating to watch. I think that the like fact that this trilogy ends up being bookkeended around the League of Shadows and Raaz A Ghul. Like, you know, there are real life project reasons that that happens, obviously. And like, you know, that's that's also just like worth saying. And you know, would this have been the exact character set that we got for the third Ledger film if if Ledger had if he thought Ledger hadn't tragically passed, like Probably not, right? So you know, was this intended from the jump to Connect Ban and Talia and Raz and League of Shadows and have that be such a central force in this question of like, can you save a city without burning it down to the ground? I have to imagine that the answer to that is no. but I think in terms of completing this Bruce Wayne's journey, even though the Talia like stuff in the Thd act is, you know quite bad. It just doesn't work I think that that's not Bane's fault actually. I think that's more about the like bloated and overstuffed and convoluted strands of the story inside of the film and it's an effort to connect it. I think the connections across the trilogy, the first film and the third thematically work. I think some of the clunkiness of the narrative inside of this story with like how much are paying attention in the opening plane heist to like Pvel and what is even the reactor and the clean ennergy plan and, you know, Tate and this and it's like That falls into what we were talking about a few minutes ago. That's just kind of like generic, canan I save my city stuff. There's nothing specific to that that feels like Gotham specific, Gotham core, right? So that stuff just doesn't work as well. I think Hardy is being is like not only internet meme era fodder in a really fun way, but just like a really memorable. likeike I'm Gotham's Reckon great performance. He is at the center of a couple of my favorite scenes in like the history of comic book movies. Like one of the things we did last year was our best of the century so far project. And I I picked Bane Batman scenes, both of which I will talk about many times again today In more than one of those pods, Not because this is my favorite movie of the trilogy. It isn't, but because I think those scenes and watching Bane and Bruce go toe to toe is like just incredibly compelling and captivating. So I'm a huge fan of the performance in a movie that can elsewhere be flawed. I love you so much. This is your most dentmented take, but I will I think Ici. I don't think that's true. Voss, how do you feel about Bane I don't want to live in a world without Tom Hardy's Bane Yeah. I'm happier. I think we're in the better timeline that he made those choices that he did. I think it is a a fundamentally flawed character in this trilogy and in this film. I I really do think there was an attempt by Nolan to address some of the concerns with his previous two films that we didn't have Batman in a real fight ever. And I do think you do need to see his physical prowess and the boldness to show Batman's back getting broken. I think at some point in his research, Nolan discovered that Bane is the one who can actually break the back. And I like seeing that delivered in this film It's just this depiction of Bane is also an intellectual. He's also a revolutionary. He's also a grifter and a con man. He sensitive guy? cares about the innocent. He can hidene innocent in the pit. He does. one innocent Not the rest of the innocence, not the innocence of Gotham, but the innocence the city of Gotham that plans to blow up. R. My Bane takes her character specific classag Bane was right? No, it was not right, but Bane was fun to watch. Bane was fun to watch. He is fun to watch. I think the vocal choice does not work in the film. I againain, I'm happy that I live in a world where we have this. but it is it makes the character too much of a joke. It does feel like it is a voice in an ADR booth that is disconnected from the performance that was there on set. Well, so and it was, right? Because so they released the opening plane heist, whatever you want to call it, plane napping. Is that how blood transfusions work? I don't think partart of a corpse That scene is crazy. But they showed that in front of Ghost Protocol in IMAX as a sort of preview similar to what they did with the Dark Knight. And no one could understand what the fuck Bane was saying. And that was like a very unfortunate first impression of this movie was that it was a joke before you even saw the movie, is that what the fuck is Bane saying Hardy ADR all of his lines and introduces more Xingzong Gaiden, so you can at least a little bit more understand him. And I do think it's fun. Like I don't think it's like unfun Um, doesn't work for me as a whole. in a vacuum and in certain isolated moments. I have a good time with it and I think the way in which like Tom Hardy's physical imposition. likeike I hadn't seen U I just saw Bronson for the first time last year and that is just like an absolutely incredible like whirlwind physical brutality performance from Tom Hardy. and he is like really delivering that here, the way that they shot him to make him, even though he is shorter than Christian Baail, look like he's towering over over Baail like, you know, and just like punching holes in pillars for no reason, honestly. And like all this other stuff like that. like I like the physical imposition with the intellect and I like his, uh, There's somethinghing I really like about his connection to Talia, but But yeah, overall, I just think at the end of the day, the voice undercuts a lot of that. It is really fun to imitate. It is, but it undercuts it as like he's a showman. Whereas like Ledger makes big choices and all of those big choices work. And Hardy who bases off a, you know, somewhat famous boxer in the UK, like made this choice for this voice. And I fundamentally don't think it works. Yeah I think it's a note that Nolan should have given him. And I don't know what happened there. Like if you're Christopher Nolan at that point it's post inception, Christopher Nolan, you can say like Don't fuck up my billion dollar movie, please. And luckily this movie ended up doing well despite all of it. It didn't ruin the movie. And I don't think it ss the movie. I have like trouble, this most recent rewatch, is he an introvert? Is he an extrovert? Does he like the limelight or is he ambivert in the way that he can adapt to just serve the mission of trying to burn Gotham down? Because I think the middle act of this film requires this person be kind of a PT Barnum and he does not strike me as someone who likes being in front of a camera, likes speaking in front of a crowd. yet, he's there in Heind Stadium talking to thousands of people and is like making a big show of it. That's why I'm like, I think there were some ideas that the Nolan Brothers had from the second film, you need someone like the Joker, someone who is K kind of a media figure who loves the camera, who can't get enough of people staring at him to be able to deliver that particular type of plot And Bane, while he works really well in close quarters combat and a larger than life presence in some regards, doesn't strike me as someone who works as like kind of spokesman for any movement I think the good news is it's never hard after this at any point to hear anything in a Christopher Nolan movie or to understand what people are saying in the Nolan movie. It's never a problem again, folks That's only a problem in any movie that he's ever made involving water or MX cameras. I think that the Bane feels to me like he is prepared to be a showman, but only when it's required, right? Like I think he seems in the in the Heinzs field. u Steeler stadium section, very comfortable showboating and knowing that the camera is on him and that he has everybody's attention, not just in that Stadum but globally, right? I think when he is like in thesteps about to open blackgate and loose the prisoners onto the streets again, he seems to be like, I think, kind of relishing not only the act, but the moment of public presence actually think the thing that doesnt, but also he's like happy to wait in the shadows underneath the city and operate and of course, sets up you know, the darkness exchange with Batman in a very compelling way. I think part The part that like doesn't work as well actually, even though the I think understanding of the emotional Connection in history to Talia works not only for being in a vacuum, but as like a comp to Bruce as a character who's like Who is the person most important to you and saying to Blake, like even if you don't think you have anybody, like there's always someone and you don't realize until they're in parallilel or they're gone The thing that doesn't actually work quite as well is when Bane, I think, has to completely shrink then in light of Vitalia reveal, because That feels incongruous actually to de like I am out here with my collar popped as high as anyone, but Brian Celangelo's collar has ever gone before Those characters feel like they're the same. He's the mask, right? And then the mask comes off, and then it's Ty's time to shine, which we'll talk about in a second. First, let's talk about Selena Kyle Uh We've got this recast category, which you know, we'll talk about when we get to our categories, but Every time we've done it for this franchise, it's been a woman. And I just feel like, you know people I like Maggie Gyllenhall in the Dark Knight, A lot of people don't. I don't like Kitty Holmes and Batman begins and a lot of people don't. And so Rachel Dawes is a character or the women that have been asked to perform as Rachel Dawes as a character have been a stumbling block for this franchise Uh, Talia I have Reams of notes for Talia, and we'll get there Anne Hathaway, no notes. Shelina Kyle, incredible. And some context for this that I always think is fun to think about is that and you know, Anne Hathaway has talked about this quite recently like that She was in a really weird part time of her career. You know, it's it's easy to come to movies now and see the Anne Hathaway still thriving and see her in the Princess Diaries and think, wow this woman has had just like a solid, incredible career. But there was just this weird time on the internet where everyone decided that Anne Hathaway was too tri hard This is post the twenty eleven Oscars, which were not her fault. That was James Frankco's fault as far as I'm concerned. And she just had this like theater kid energy. There were all these think pieces about Jennifer Lawrence, the cool girl versus Anne Hathaway, the sweaty Thard girl and like all of that. Her reputation was so like quote unquote, bad to like whatever Dummies on the internet and Chris Ferolan Caster. And she has talked about how She didn't think she was going to get cast that he took this like chance on her when no one liked her and everyone thought she was toxic and wanted to stay away from her. and put her in this role and then put her in her cellar and just sort of like She's like, too a certain extent kind of sa kept my career momentum going in a time when it really could have ground to a halt and It's just like, I genuinely think that this movie because it comes out the same year as Lam Mazarab is is Partially responsible the same way I think True Detective is responsible for Matthew Mconghe's Oscar. like partartially responsible for getting that Oscar. she didn't get the Oscar for Cat womoman, but you watch her do Fontine in Lim Mas and you watch her do Selena Kyle And you're like, Yeahah, give that, give that woman an Oscar. Are you kidding me? What did she do? Anne Hathaway iss excellent in this movie. I love the the adjustments that she makes in a shot to go from like a screaming damsel in a bar Yeah, how she can just play without even changing her face, play kind of the oops clumsy server working in the mansion too, just like with the slightest tilt Oops like that She's just incredible. I think she gives the best performance in this film Yeah. And she's so watchable. And I agree. I think often we reward Oscars for career in that moment. So the moment that the actor' in rather than the singular performance a lot of the time. And I don't know, I remember that time in twenty eleven and not understanding it, not tuning into it.. stillill liking her as a performer. Yes, I understand that she was the better half of the Oscar presenter. I don't understand why she took the blame for that Yeah. But I do remember that discourse of the cool girl and how cool is she when she's the cool girl in this movie when when she it's all you know is I'm not getting emotionally when she's just like, all I know is that you should be as afraid of him as I am, like she's just so effortless and wonderful. And I love her in this film. Yeah, she's amazing. defefinitely the NVP of this movie. She's She's smart, She's confident, but we understand the moments where she feels fear. I think something like how physically convincing she is in every respect, right? Like the kind of swaying crouch in front of the safe or the like, hey, just hold his hat for a second so I can punch you through it at the airport, right all of that. You know, the humor, like you dumb bitch No one's ever called me dumb before. L Iiconic, honestly, incredible, right It was unbreakable. It like it's so good. And you know often in a film, especially a film with this many new characters in particular, like you're saying, Joe who we have to like kind of understand quickly their history, their relationship to current events, like all at, all at once. You know, if you were basically just like handed certain key nuggets like we are with Selena. She's after the clean slate You know, here's a folder this thick of all of the trans, you know, the transgressions and the run ins that she's had. Bruce when he's like, praising the the way that she retrieved his his fingerprints, right? And he's like, she is good. but also They're catching up with her. The ground is shaky beneath her feet. There's a version of that where it's like so hand fisted to make us understand without actually understanding anything about the character. We don't know anything about Selena. We're just being told all these things about here where it's like, . Like what like kind of clunky exposition to help us like really quickly grasp where this character is, with their history, the way even some of the things that she has to say about kind of like wealth, right Yeah all arms coming Yeah. Like, you know, even when Bruce gets to keep his house and her reaction to that is like, man, you can even like go broke like differently than the rest of us. There There's a version of it where it's like kind of just like really I roll inducing, but she makes it c at just the perfect frequency. And you understand, I think something about her soul and like her essence. You know, one of my favorite moments in the performance is Toward the end when Bruce is back and trying to convince her to stay to stay and actually help and stay and fight. he's like I think, you know I think you have like there's more to you than that in the way that she says I'm sorry to keep letting you down. It is so, so, so, so, so good. You have no problem believing, I think that there's like a sincere earnest impulse behind that, just as there is when she's like, come away with me. So you buy it when they're together at the end. But also you buy that she had to talk herself into pulling back into the city after she clears the path in the tunnel. It's just fantastic, fantastic performance Fantastic rendering of this character. I love it. I have a read on this where like know because some because they do two love interests for Bruce inside of this movie, you know, like he has sex with Taliao Ghouul, but he ends up with Selena Kyle U You know, I think some people are like, why would he end up with her at the end of the day? I feel like she's soulmate in this movie. He like wakes up from his slumber when he meets her. And like there there are moments in this movie where they're just sort of like They're mirrored again and again and again, she pulls on him what he pulls on her on all other,, that's what that feels like. you know, all sort stuff like that. But like even like her backfliipping out of his window, which is just incredible. And then him like powerful. backackflipping out of the hospital window to go visit Gordon. L there's just like all of these sort of mirror moments, which like the bat and the cat have always had that. And so there's just that built in I'm rooting for them anyway. Hels that she looks absolutely smoking hot in her costume. The goggle ears are incredible inspired innovation to bring this comic bookie idea into this grounded real world thing Al I talk about this a lot, but I feel like it's really important to have if you're gonna be a masked character that you have to have like really good lips Or in the case of Robert Pattinson, like he just has a slash mouth, which also really works for Batman. But like Patrick Wilson has like incred, you know, like in Watchman, like incredible and like she just has this like the the like Five layers of red lipstick she's wearing when she's got that cat costume on is like h should not be underestimated. I think it's very important. Yeah. She is a true shapeshifter. It's really fun to imagine the two of them in Italy Y and their epilogue. like what kind of hotel guests are they? Are they just like running cons on the waiter doing his like spoiled college jerk persona, her doing her, you know, flirty girl energy. And then every hotel they go to, they're just acting like a completely different cou. I love that. They're so manic and water perfectach. Yeah. When she does the transition of yeah, doing that Whatever that dive is out the back of the window, which is incredible. landing somehow on her feet as I' catch. And then just doing just kind of master a disguise thing, just pulling off whatever this like the apron the of C get in the back of the congressman's car and saying you want to take me home and then they go off to the Caribbean for a few days. Like we don't see that in the movie, but like she kept up that act for like days to get drunk and ruin his life probably. And then just so she can use him as a human shield. That is such a long con.es where she's like, I need a powerful human shield for when I go to talk to these guys. And they're gonna stiff me L And Dag's gonna use his cell phone. She's thought of everything. She She's thought terrifying. She's such a cool villain She she there's a completely different version of the movie where it's just her and just the kind of you know, the cat and mouse or the cat and bat game that could have been played because I love that. I love the energy between the two of them And it's such a well written character and a well performed character and it's just fun to imagine the ellsewlding with her. Yeah Um, Shall we talk about Talia Yes, but we all have to slump. We have to slump in order to do it like this give your microphone p you up in that post. I'm not sure. Her in Cottyyard has been like has given interviews where she's like, Yep I didn't get the angle right on that day. She' like, I sure fucked that up. I understand people hate it. One of the most remarkable I am dying posture choices in the history of cinema. completely confounding. you're definitely not supposed to be just feeling uncontrollably at that point in the film But it's hard not to. opening night fan boys there at one thirty AM. We were all laughing in that moment. like how why did they use that take? I know, let's go back and take another take. Well, I mean, so part of it is like I know they had a short window with her because she had like just had her baby and they like, You know, so like that's why she's wearing a lot of billy quats for a lot of the movie is she was just sort of like right after her pregnancy, they altered the shooting schedule so they could get time with her. And I love that Chrisopher Nalind did that. He's like I want Marian Ctyard. I don't care. I'll figure it out. But like I think it put them like against the clock to certain stuff they were shooting with her. And yeah, I cannot believe he got into the editing room was like, A, that bay voice ten ten, no noes. B, that Talia like posture dying scene. great. loveove it. Which sucks because Um I don't know that I love I think her coming off of inception and of course, there's so many inception people in this movie, but like Coming off of playing mall And I know the internet had already figured the internet had already figured out she was playing Talia. That's fine But like what percentage of the internet is is the mass audience. But coming off of Ma, she's just giving villain energy like the whole movie unfortunately. And so like if you had cast maybe an actress who didn't quite have that baggage or directed her to the difference. I still do love when she shoves the knife in her in him and her very impassive face when she does it I really like that moment a lot donon't like much else that poor Talia slash Miranda does in this movie. She's pulled the hair back. It's time for business. Yeah. It'y till time. Yeah Yeah, The inception callout is like a great one and you couple that with This hot woman who every old man in Bruce's life constantly is reminding him is hot. That's also a hysterical part of Darkr risise. Alford and Lucius are just constantly, haveave you seen thisot shick around you Oh Have you seen this Hw Chick around you? No the comy I set you up with a chimpanzee if it got you out. so dumb. though the comedy of Alfred having to pick up Bruce the ball after Selinacce with the Lamborghini does make it all worth it. but like, yeah, okay, so beautiful mysterious woman who is involved in key boardroom maneuvers and also it's like the thing I'd love to talk about is this energy reactor that one dude can turn into a nuke. couldould that person potentially end up being bad? I don't know. Everyone looks so dumb every time they include her in all of the plans. They're like, let's plan everything, right? And then like Those people die and those people die and that plan goes aride. I'm like, youve gota you've got a rat. Yeah. Very t. Look to the hot French lady. She's such I really feel like she's like a plot mechanism in this movie. Yeah. Like when you rewatch it, you see, oh, Nolan needed a way to have some kind of for For Bruce to lose the board vote, for him to lose his wealth to put her in a position of power to where she can reactivate this energy project. You can sense Nolan's nuclear dread throughout this movie. And then yeah, he he felt the need to close this trilogy by bringing back the League of Shadows by making H Talia al Ghul I just don't think it's necessary. I wonder like if this movie came out several years later, If he did Inception and Interstellar and his Dunkirk movie and got a couple of his other passion projects out of his system and then revisited the movie years later, you wouldn't feel the need to top or to close the trilogy the same way. You would have had more I don't know, att least more experience with sound mixing in a film to make different choices. You say that, but Ipect I don't know. I've seen your defenseive Tenet, but I don understand it G I I mean, Tennet is not a movie that's meant to be understood. Exactly. That's how I feel. This is a movie that is meant to be understood. And yeah, I think Taly Al Gul is just like an unfortunate ch that I feel like Marianne Cotiard was underserved in this role. and it's not her fault. I just think it's I didn't need the League of Shadows in this film. If it's a story about Gotham Soul, the League of Shadows story was already told and that book was closed. So and we all just saw it happening. And I don't know. what do you do at that point? once the interternet figures it out Um, you can't cut her from the film. Because at that point, the film is what the film is. It's so funny because you know, watching a bunch of behind the scenes of this movie, they talked about all of the links they went to to keep certain secrets, right? Like when they filmed the funeral scene, Christian Bale got in costume and was on set so that if there were set photos taken of the funeral scene, Christian Bale was there in costume And they're like, Michael Kanaine was very confused. like why Bruce was there? The headstone in that scene says Miranda Tate on it. you know, so they could later put Bruce Wayne on it, why Miranda Tate would be buried in in the Wayne family plot. Let's not worry about it, But you know, it's for really memorable fuck by the fire That what. And Liam Neeson was like, I had no idea what I was doing in that movie. He just told me to like walk out of the shadows and walk back into the shadows. L a lot of people just got like their scenes, nobody knew the ending of the movie, the few people that did, it was like verbally told to them. So this is like final seasons of Game of Thrones level. like we're keeping people in the dark to try to keep this a secret. and it's like Th the most important, like not the most but like I would say the big twist Maybe the big twist is, we'll talk about twist, but like maybe the big twist is Bruce is still alive, but like the big twist kind of feels like it was Talia. and then That was the thing that the internet was like, That's definitely Toy Al Gul, right? Like I remember Tam Ginzl was like, that's Toally Al Gul Join us like, o o. It's interesting. yeah. I didn't know that they did all those things to keep the secre from freakingking out I was aware of the Robin ADR ad latater. Yes, yes,. They cut away. And they did do the same thing with the patching of the autopilot technology and the Bat vehicle. Like they say, oh, whose name was on the fix they cut away from the engineers and you hear Bruce Wayne. And I wonder what they told they Yeah, they must have given those actors another name because he has to kind of smirk at a moment to be like, Ohh, that's interesting Interesting. All right be a Rubin. Yeah. What do you feel about the way in which Robin is deployed or John Blake is deployed or just a Gordon Levitt in that role? I think Joseph Gordon Levt' great in this role. I I like him a lot. I wish there was more Joseph Gordon Levitt now. I miss him. I think I don't need it to be Robin. I wasn't disturbed by it being Robin. There are maybe other Robin is a weird one that like his name is Robin and not Dick Yeah or Richard or something like that. Check my legal name. Yeah, because he only has the name Robin because of the flying Graysons and that's like his insignia. So I found that to be a weird bit of lore building. I just I don't think Chris and Jonathan have the same kind of interest in banding the comic book lore of this world. So when they do things like this, it kind of feels a little hollow, but not so much to where I walked out of the theater upset. I was like, I would watch a spinoff with him as kind of a nightwing character in this world. I still think that door' open, honestly. I think I think Joseph Gordon Levitt is kind of the answer to the question of what do we owe This community. what do we ow Gotham he has forgotten the orphans. and and I think The fact that he could be the champion for them, I think is so virtuous and nice in the final act. It's a little hokey to see him say, let's get back on the bus. You can't. Don't let him die without hope. It was a bit of an y roll. rememarkable moment. But I liked him screaming at that copicot You killed. what a raw moment in a final act that didn't have a lot of like raw Might Um, I I I like the performance as well. I mean, Im I'm a I'm Joseph Gord Lovt fan. I like him in Nolan's movies. O obviously we had a ton of fun talking about Arthur in Inception. I just I love him there. I the movie ending on him and setting up that promise of like a Robin film future was really exciting to me at the time. And I think that it makes sense for this Bruce, this Batman in this version of the story, which is so rooted in including in their conversations in this movie, like that was the point of Batman, like the way the symbol is supposed to function There's all of the ill that that end has inspired over the course of the trilogy, but what good and hope and like a decision to fight for the cause could it inspire? It makes perfect sense to me as an ending point to kind of pass the mantle on the mission to another character. I think that undeniably it is also true that this Blake figure in this movie is like kind of a square. The term that's used in the movie often is hothead. And I think that's true in the sense that he doesn't mind like being a bit of a bitch and like whining and complaining and calling everybody out on their bullshit. Like he's a little bit of a brat. He always thinks he know he knows the most at every moment But he's just like he's really kind of like self righteous and like self important and has that sense of moral clarity that I think frankly makes him a perfect candidate to you know, inherit the Batman mantle at the end, but I think can lead to a little bit of like a a reaction for some fans, but I enjoy it. I think he like makes sense in this story and in this movie. This is not my recasting pick. I will not be coming for Jessica Gordon Levittt on this podcast. I do love him, but I did see that Ryan Gosling was like in the running to play this role. And I'm like Gling who's so good at injecting everything with humumor Like if John Blake had just been a little like, a little less self serious and, you know, like u I do like that like When we think about John Blake as a candidate to take over the mantle. and Christopher Nolan has said from the beginning This was what he wanted at the end of his journey with Batman was someone else takes over the mantle. Like that's he always wanted that to be sort of the final shot of the story So you know, whether it's a Dick Graysason or whether it's John Blake, my name my legal name is Robin like sort of a moment. That moment got laughed out of my theater. L they laughed at Taly and then they laughed at that. And I was like, we're not ending very well But like I like that he has figured out who Batman is. So like in terms of like world's greatest detective, like he's doing some great detecting work. I like the the visual of him like swinging into the cave Yeah Flying Grayson style and sort of like and the rise. like I think I really Like From a visual point of view, I really love that ending. But yeah, I don't know. it's almost works. like almost works inside of this I think it's interesting. The humor part point is a great one because like, you know, I think I'm thinking of a moment like where in the third act he has that You got to tell them what's really going on here moment and what if she was like, wait till, you get got a load Not only w wait til you hear about this fucking bomb. It's literally a time bp. Wait tntill you see what Scarecrow is up to. You know, like a little bit of that Yeah would have would have been fun. Yeah, he's very, very, very sol serious. It's interesting like the role. It's interesting to me that Hathaway gets the accusations of being a try hard when like in the same era we had Joseph Gordon Levittt doing the same kind of thing. Oh yeah, he's like, I'm going to do make them laugh on SNL. like interest thing he does in the Bruce Willis impression ofer. Yeah. I didn't have a problem with this. I was a theater kid. I love seeing a theater like work out their freak on screen. Yeah. And so I don't blame any of them for this, but it's just interesting that a't happen pay the price for that. And both of them get their chance to kind of like earn their keep here. I Yeahah, I hear what you're saying. I do think that like Doug The story of Gotham as Christopher Nolan as presented it are characters that are just a bit wearier. And accepting of the base reality of corruption. It would be weird to walk around like this is all a lagh riot.'s it's just like it makes him I think a hard to like fully embrace with deep in abiding warmps because he's like such a drag. But I do really like the character works for me quite well in the movie. actuallyually when it ends, I'm like, let's go. Do you think When Alfred's done having his Fe Bronco on the by the Arno, does he go back and he is like the Alfred to this Batman as well or is he fully retired? I hope not. I hope he goes and just really enjoys some respite Europe. I don't know if he has the capacity to really unwind in him ultimately. but think I think Florence is lovely. Let's go look at some other some other places. He didn't make a promise to Thomas and Martha to also look after every orphid crime fighter who's going follow. He finished burying Wayne, whether or not they had actually died, and now he can move on with his life I do love was I watched a really recent interview with Christian Bale where he was talking about the ending and the interview was like, is it real? Is it a dream? You know, what what is the ending of this movie? And he's like, well, no, I think it's real. it can be whatever the audience wants it to be. I think it's real But with what he says is he's like He finally gets to lay down the privilege and the burden of being Bruce Wayne. And I love that. It wasn't being Batman, it was like being Bruce Wayne. that being Bruce Wayne was the thing that was like choking and suffocating him. And so to your point about like, let's write some fanfic about the role playay that Selena and Bruce do across Europe, like I love that he's just like, I don't have to be Bruce Wayne anymore And I don't know if that was Christ Bale, like misspeaking or whatever, but it really struck me of this like That's the persona that was like really crushing him. And like the fact that his mom's necklace is now on Selena's neck and like the pearls that were broken have been really strong and like all of that is just like I love the ending of this movie. What is this home base? Like when I think of Bruce Wayne, I think of the public persona, the billionaire playboy who's like jumping in fountains with models and going on yachts with ballerinas. Great stuff.s mask, right? Right. the But also the Bruce Wayne who's like sulking around the mansion with Alfred is probably not his comfort zone either because he's like in the halls of the house at his parents lived and we werere not able to raise him in. So he's not comfortable there. He was comfortable with Rachel for a time. L if I think like, yeah, Bruce sitting on on a terrace in Florence is probably there's a different Bruce that we haven't really seen yet that is probably most comfortable for him. I think that this is like this is obviously something we love in general in a story like this and something that is quite rewarding for viewers or readers after the investment of real time with that character. Like it's a version of What we get with Cap and Tony, you know, at the end of end game, right where C is the one where Cap finally gets to say, like I'm going to try some of that life. Tony's been telling me about. And then Tony is the one who makes the sacrifice play. And like if you have bought in fully and invested fully in the choices and the sacrifices and the compromises a character has had to make. And if what the hero or the vigilante or whatever has actually given of themselves to the people they've helped than like Either they give it all at the end or they give a different version of all of it, which is letting themselves actually like off the hook, right? And so watching Bruce comoming into this movie and, you know, we learned that eight years have passed and seeing him like you're saying Eric, like He's a phhantom in the halls of his own home and the idea that he rebuilt it in the first place like is a monument to what, right? T the past. And so the idea of Bruce finally allowing himself to discover some sort of future. And I think it's interesting because Alf's position across the movies like actually moves quite a bit in terms of what he wants out of Bruce. I'll hit that in one of the categories, but like Bruce has change in stide of the constant. The constant is what do I have to do for this place? And so it's a massive thing to allow himself to like let go of that and go live a life for a little while. And there's a like you know, one of the lines I really remember from there are actually a lot of lines in this movie where even all these years later, you watch the movie and you're like, I remember hearing that in the trailer for the first time Right? And like not everything not yet is Definitely one of those moments. And I remember getting like chill seeing that in the trailer for the first time. It was like not everything that yet The idea, of course would be The sacrifice of death. Like giving his life. That my idea of How about a mask, which was Bruce's life. Like there's no life in this stretch of time across this trilogy for Bruce outside of being Batman So that is giving. everything right? It's really cool. It's a great, great, great ending. The final scene is part of why I was so ready to be like I need to see this again immediately.mediately, despite all of thealia Let's apovel and the band voice. Let's do our categories. Yes. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, campaigns slow down, insights get buried, and opportunities get missed. That's why Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales, using automation, analytics, and smarter workflows to simplify campaign delivery and access better data across the business. The result, less time spent on operations, more time connecting brands with the moments and fandoms that matter most. To learn more, check out acccenture. com slash Spotify. All newews Sundays at nine, exclusively on AMC and AMC pllus. I st. I'm a rockstone now an Rice's Imortal Universe comes what Vulture calls the most momentous event in fictional rock history. Thousand of. I want millions Its my. Fan Rice is the Vampireless Dot, All new Sundays at nine exclusively on AMC and AMC pllus stream now Looking to see what's happening around your home? Ring's battery doorbell helps you track packages and see who's at your door in real time. The oututdoor Cam plus protects your yard at night with a wide field of view and clearer retinal two K video, or upgrade to four K cameras and doorbells with retetinal vision for ultra clear zoom in detail. Your door, your yard, your home With Ring, it's protected. Shop cameras, doorbells, and more at ring d. com now Okay, we're going to do our top twenty combination of superlatives and other sundries as we go through this. Each category has a Nolan movie quote attached to it, not necessarily quote from this movie. Starting with so serious, fununniest on lineer moment from this movie. Eric Boss. My favorite is spepecifically after Talia Algul's slow knife speech. and how great Marianne is with like she really one of the best face of The last thing he sees before they all get fried by a nuclear bice and it doesn't work out. him going in hisatman Batman voice too slow. It' so great. So great My Irvin. I get such a kick out of both because of the just litany of physical peril that Bruce has suffered through, but also Bruce's face in the scene. when Bruce goes to get basically his physical add the cartilage. Where where Jim Mc Gordon is? And then the doc says, I've seen worse cartilage in knees and Bruce is like, that's good That's because there is no cartilage in your knee and not much of any use in your elbows or your shoulders. Between that and the scar tissue in your kidneys. there residual concussive damage to your brain tissue. And the general scarred over quality of your body, I cannot recommend that you go hell asca. mrter Wayne and the Brwster like It fills me. It cracks me up. It's so good. 'a there's so many moments you watch Bruce get just like destroyed and you're like, is his brain like not pudding after this? So I appreciated that and it made me laugh I don't know if this is my like Game of Thrones loyalty, but I just think Aidan Gillan in the opening of this movie, when he's just like posturing with his polo tucked into his cak' with a belt, he's like trying to play the big man with his gun and he's just sort of like You know, yeah, carry them over there. Yeah. well, if if we throw you out of the plane and it's just like terrible cosplaying as someone with any kind of attitude, it's really, really funny to me. And then also, this is extra textual, but this time wing through, I was thinking about, you know, when when Batman Gordon is like Light it up. And he lights it up And then you have to think about Bruce in the dead of night, I guess Laying that track with the fuel, climbing up the bridge, using whatever fuel he has used to like draw the giant Batman siggeil. Like all the scamppering that Bruce does around to like fix the back signal or like leave stuff for for Robin or whatever the case may be, I can like vibe with. But just like he had so little time on the clock before that bomb was going off And he just had to make a very dramatic fiery entrance. And so I just like like thinking of him like repelling and just sort of painting this That signal on the side of the bridge. Yeah exactly. Absolutely. Nos I love that. Also the fact that they are on canonically slippery ready to crack at any point. Iice,ike I'm always waiting for Gordon to be like Oh, the gas is like like two inches from me on this very slippery ice. Like what if I had not seen the flare and stopped exactly where I was supposed to stop, would I just like Harvey dent myself right here? Tough one. Great one. A couple runners up. We already talked about this, so that's what that feels like when when Selena vanishes Incredible. M really really good. In the same, no one ever accused me of being dumb. Selena Dagget Stryer sequence when when Stryver comes in and it is like another Thrones Oh yeah, Berg Barman. anotherother Thrones presence here. Nice outfit. those heels make it tough to walk and when Selena stabs them. U and says, I don't know, do they just iconic. justust wonderful stuff from Merch is the best, which is great. Any other runners up that you have? I like the cop, justust saying sorry. Sorry ye after she shoots up Good stuff. Yeah. Oh actually, I was born in the regency room, also very good. Oh yeah, very good. And A Bitha,'s pronounced. ' insane and hysterical. You already mentioned this, but I do think that like everything that Anne Hathaway does in the fingerprint exchange scene from the like screaming and crying like going from shooting everyone competently to screaming and crying to saying to the congressman, keep some pressure on that darling on our way out. he's like, home me. And then like walking out the door in the cop and she's like, he's bleeding. you know, like like the in and out that she does with that character is just like really funny, really good. It's just incredible stuff. All right Speaking of Tom Hardy, you mustnt be afraid to dream of a bigger darling. Sickest set piece, Eric Vos. I might get heat for this. I just love the football field demolition. I think it's I know it was in the trailer and I know there's a lot of VFX that doesn't hold up. Just the concept of it and Hein'z Wward running the down. my least favorite, my least favorite player of all time. Heins Word of all time Obviously like not accounting for like actual like martyerer people who done terrible real world things just inside of like a football fandom rivalry like the Steelers or the Ravens are tribal. I'm a Ravens fan. and Heinz Ward always had the, you know, had he had to respect the fact that he was a great player, right? But like this just this smug smile on his face when he was doing something against the Ravens. it's just it was so easy to hate him and runot against him. So watching him receive the kickoff and then have No idea that his entire team is being sucked into the abyss as he runs forward towards the end zone to happily score That greatreat. And prececeding it with the Little Boy singing the National Anthem, I mean, part of it was like, I saw it in the trailer and seeing it in IMAax. That is like a very cool spectacle and piece. C canan't believe Baynon won you over Joe with his commentary on that musical interlude, you know, It's like Beautiful voice.ice. loves the arts. Bean loves the arts. It does feel like Nolan does this really well of this kind of this synchronistic editing of like multiple complex processes that just happen to happen at the same time and converge at the right moment. All their plans work. Yeah. It's like he did it literally in tenet of like the building un exxploding and the top half explod at the same time. All of his movies have a moment like this. and it was like, yeah, the explosive cement going off around the city all culminating in the football field. So it was really the moment leading up to it that led to life. I don't think it's a bad pick because like for whatever you say about the VFX, like when you watch the making of, they like blew holes in the field and they had guys like fall into the hole, like real guys fell into holes during that run. and yes, they added a bunch of extra explosion, but like I love that Chris Rerolan talks about like when he when he does a big sequence and they have to use CGI, of course he would rather blow up every building himself. But like if they have to use CG for something or another, he's like, I like to always end with something real to anchor the audience into the sense of realness. So I think it ends with like your least favorite football player ever just like having this real like Oh moment. Iag just like kind of Iagine not knowing your entire team just got sucked into the ground because you're so busy running running back. That's good. Well he wass about to do a victory dance. Yeah. I didn I didn't earn this victory. D like all the guys are going to tackle me got Dedication to the craft. Malory Rubin, what's your answer? So I had Eric's pick as one of my two candidates for. the stunt category actually, but it's always hard to know which goes and which. There's a lot of bleed between them. I am going go with the Post bank heist stealth chase and introduction of the Bat, the sequence where Batman is making his grand return at last. and you know, the way that he emerges by blanketing the scene in darkness and the underpass. and then the old cop says to the young cop Oh boy, you're in for a show tononight. That is just like so good and then we get a little bit of a stretch with our favorite, the batpod One of the better, I mean, nothing can touch Patson and nothing can touch our pats, but for the Bale movies, one of the better billowing cape Batman moments here, which is always important. you have this really like notable idiot cop stretch, right with Foldy just making the wrong choice to pursue Batman over The robbers and Blake is like, U, o You know, so we have a lot of doubt that that is being cast on the ability of the people who are in theory charged with protecting the city to like know what is appropriate in a given moment. Tough feat for Matthew M'Dine in this movie. I don't know why happens I always like forget he's in this movie in' likeah. It looks like the last time he did' have white hair, I think. I know. It looks very dyed to me. I' the white hair there. than. And then the the, you know, bat pod going up like shooting down the track so that he can go up and escape. And then we swap in the bat and Blake gets to be a smart ass for a second is' like it was him. Re God Batman's using his his tricks and his his toolbox again. And I think just the city watching him return is very satisfying in that stretch I'll be a basic bitch and pick the plane opening sequence. The fact that they like actually did a lot of that in the air is just like so nolen and so amazing. And when you watch this sort of like, making of where they're like, we had to ask Scotland if it was okay if we could crash a plane on their countryside and It just looks incredible. like Yeah whether or not you can understand bane, you can understand or blood transfusions. you can understand that like a plane drops out from beneath some of your characters. You see people like repelling into a plane? like that's You know, Tom Cruise is like, okay, bet I'll I'll I'll try to top it, but like, but like that was the the text for that, you know? I don't Don't It's amazing this is the second Batman movie in Aoba for literally no reason. Nolan was like, what if we did a massive plane thing? J absolutely no reason. And it's fun, certainly to have the mission of posossible Enerergy. I agree when the plane drops away, it's very satisfying. I like the like, you there's no reason to fear like that comes later. Bain moment is kind of a nice like, oh shit, we need to like be really afraid My fire will rise. I find this scene sort of in a movie I really quite enjoy. I find this scenes to be emblematic of actually what like doesn't work about the movie, which is just like You're so on your back foot trying to track what is happening kind of for no reason right away And I think the Aiden Gillan performances I could barely wrap my mind around any choice that he's making. It's like it's so bananas. It's great funy. It is so funny when Bane is like I just wondering why you'd like did the vice Sry I' just wondering why you would shoot a man before pushing him out of a plane. W. It's so funny. when his voice comes into the scene, like you're watching the scene and you're like, I'm like I'm confused what's going on, like blah blah. And then his voice comes like through the master through the stack vers and it just sounds like it's in a different movie. Yeah you're like, what's happening? It sounds like the theater next to you or two things. f. likeike you're a big guy No, but that's not what he's saying right? Who knows what he's saying. No, because he's saying like it will be paineful. you're big for you. Like he's saying you're finishing you would be painful for you. Okay.. I think a lot of people think he's saying you're a big guy and he's like as in relation to you. a lot of people love it for you I have that as one of my other picks. But yeah, I agree with you. I think there is like a logic issue of when they start doing CPR on when they start getting, none of that makes sense. Yeah, none of that. The transfusion where Pavel's blood needs to be in this corpse and they couldn't identify him. like there wass enough blood that was transfused where they couldn't look at dental record. Like it's very confusing. That's what I'm saying It makes no sense to put like a pint of blood into a dead body When like the teeth will be there and whatever. I don't. to open with this this nuclear physicist who, it's like two hours until that really comes back into play. bizarre. But Tenet does the same thing. Tennet opens with a well overthought opening scene, just because like Nolan nailed it in the Dark Knight. It's a great heist of a shrinking play game. Yeah That's amazing. It works perfectly. And then after that, he's like I must. I must have foundound. j I don't want them to get it the first time. It's be a bus. It's gonna be a plane. What's gonna happen in the Odyssey? That's why I'm so excited for the Odyssey. There's gonna to be some weird. We're gonna hear the songs of the sirens distorting our perception of reality It's be great. We're gonna suck down Caribus. It's gonna to be great. Oh got to be great Uh, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. Who's the real villain of this movie Is it J Robert Oppenheimer in a way from a historical Pandora's box ist alwaysredence. I don't know. I have this is a lame Ily think piece approach, but I think like the Shadow of the Joker still looms over this movie. And I think like the noble lie that Gordon is forced to uphold throughout this movie and how it tortures him really ruins his relationship with Batman. I think that is all the Joker' doing. There's like a bunch of there's media illiterate takes of the final shot of Batman's eulogy and the unveiling of his statue and the overhead shot of people in attendance and how it makes a smiley face with Batman as like a bluish colored nose. and how it's like the Joker's smile in almost like a Kubrickian way looms over this whole thing. I disagree with that take. I do think it's weird that there's a semicircle and then two smaller semicircles. I don't know why you would arrange an audience that way at an unveiling of a statue whatever. But I do still think that like Nolan was still so excited by what he accomplished in the second film and how the Joker poisoned the city in such a way that people like Bane and the League of Shadows could come back and nearly bring it to destruction. I think there's an argument to be made that like The Joker was ultimately the worst, most dangerous threat this city ever experienced in its history Yeah. I have a kind of related pick, which is like complacency. I mean, I think that the dent and these is lazy days of thinking you solved it when a lot of the people who are allowing that delusion to take root, like Gordon Bruce like know that that's not true and can't possibly hold and also if it does hold, Is it right? Um, you know, and and as we've already outlined, like the fact that, you know, the League of Sadows is able to move in that Bane, it's not just that Bane shows up and does this thing Daggget has his operations, securing the tunnels and likes in. crredic is here. We recruitited workers. you know, that exchange that Blake has with the young boy whose brother was washed up in that kid is like Like people go to the tunnels,'s they do.' like this stuff is happening and nobody is doing anything about it. alsoso like nobody but Pvel knows how to disarm this bomb. There's no one in the world like Bruce the Size of the reactor is too dangerous peel of clean energy he can't let go of, but like he doesn't just flood the bom. Like people just are making decisions born out of a sense of complacency and like kind of ineptitude that allows Bane to fairly easily infiltrate the city and then take it down, you know, from beneath All you have to do is pull that concrete down from underneath the armory of Wayne Enterprises and say thank And be like thank you decided Ay Dent meant more to the city than Batman So like you're saying the shadow of Joker, I would also say and they're related, of course, the shadow of Harvey Dent and the complacency in the M M is related tears, is a chain reaction of answers U I think we talked about this when we did Batman Begins, but who can fuckking remember? And I talk about this a lot when I talk about the Tom Holland Spider Man movies, but this idea of like tech coming back to haunt people. So Stark technology, which is like the villain of every single Tom Holland Sider Man movie. It's like Stark teech is the problem. Wayne teech, like the train in the first movie and the clean energy here, the way that like Wayne teech is u weaponized is like haunting this and just sort of these like, the thoughtless whims of the rich, the playthingings of the rich or the or the like, you know, good intentions that Thomas Wayne had for the city or whatever being turned against being weaponized. But I just really love this idea of like previous decisions, especially of these like billionaire, playboy inventor or whatever, coming back to like bite you in the ass and haunt you at the end of the day. So a great one. Um, But also rich people. there's a storm coming, Mr. Wayne and you and your friends that baton down the hatches because when it hits, you're all gonna wonder how you ever thought you could live so large and leave so little for the rest. How often is she repeating that refrain from those gorgeous cafes in the banks of Florence? I wonder. She like she's like once I could only get red delicious apples to eat, my tune really changed exxactly. I why to that kid's apples is very tough Are you watching closely, Most exquisitely, gorgeous There's a lot of them in this movie. I mean, Nolan does know how to compose a shot. For me it was Hot takeake Yeah, Nolan G know his way around a shot. That guy knows. me is me all? I love Z mees all set in this movie. I love Selena on the Batpod, the mechanics of it and we saw teases of this throughout the movie, but when she tumbles in a way and does a one hundred eighty and how fast that is, I thought that was Beautifulotion. I had got an applause out of me. That's great. Every time I see it. I bet ye very powerful visual sequence. she's amazing. My pick this one's for Joe It's getting to see Scarecrow sitting atop his. That is of course my answer That is of course my answer That is of course my answer. The best shot of this movie is Jonathan Crane, the scarecrow, they star of this trilogy. good. It's from a set deck perspective, the like way they stacked those desks The way the whole thing is shot, he looks incredible. L all like his coat is fray, that looks all scarecrowy. He's got a hammer fading reams of paper. got hammers out of a gavel? Like that's the most like wacky comic booky moment of this movie. and I just think it looks so cool. I love that it's a very like exaggerated comic book visual trilogy where we don't always get those. That's like exciting. and it does connect to the first film where we had more of that through the scarecrow stuff in particular Also though like exaggerated in a kind of like political cartoon Yeah, ye yeah way. which is very effective in that of the story. it's just great. And you know, the kind of related exile via ice stuff looks er, very good to the sheine and shim, I agree with you. It's like fun to see the snowflakes falling down in Gotham. but yeah, Scarecrow atop his pile of stack amazing. We had like a stack of cash in the Dark Night. We have the Trinity Test Twer in Oppenheimer and you have the Trojan horse and does no one like just building wooden structures of like twenty feet in height. Yeah I mean, Bruce has to scale the not wooden, but the mountain up to the League of Shadows and Batman begins. There's a lot of that kind of like mountain wood. you think Do you think no one would do well at Burning Man What have's done every year? Probably mask, you can' tell. He's wearing a bane mask. you can't tell. And he's like, takeake control of your LRT. Oh my God. like the Baya of Vibes post Burning Man. What was? I forget what they call it. It's like reintegration or whatever. Like when the burners come back to the Baya and they're just like reintegration like it in seffarate.ike they're like I have to. I like have to come back to reality, man. It's such a hard comeown, love you burners. Okay. I can't remember to forget you the scene you think about the mo Most Eric Boss I think it's gotta be just Batman and Bane duking it out in the sewer, breaking his back. Correct. I always wondered what would break first b, right? sooul your budody? who cares spiriti your body. It so good. Just the water dripping down on them. The lighting is incredible. I love it Obviously this one pick as well. That was one of the things that I picked in our best of the century so far, but so I was obviously not going to not pick it here. You know, the famous nightfall backbreaking just canon making it to the screen. obbviously you're very exciting. Selena's betrayal, you have the character beats for that relationship too building up to it. Ban revealing he knows who Batman is that he's Bruce, like there's all everyone knows. I mean, that's Selina in that moment she's shocked and Gordon at the very anti's like. Bru Wayne. Gordon's. Can I tell you that Gary Olman having to deliver Bruce Wayne? and like like how many Do you think he's just like wandering around his hotel room, just being like, Bruce Wayne Brce Wayne Bruce Wade like, you know, he just kind of throws it away, which I kind of like, but it was just sort of like, he's like, oh Godd, I gota say Bruce Wayne, like, how am I gonna do that? I think he was probably spending a good chunk of his time thinking about having to watch Talia. We don't like slumps like notch one.ureure professional fashion. But yeah, like the brutality of the brawling J the physicality, the destruction of like the symbols of safety and power, right? You have exploding and breaching into the Wayne arrmory, but also shattering Batman's mask, right? We get a little of like the cap shield shattering there as well. Like that's always a really satisfying thing to watch. And this is just like just a string of iconic bain lines. I mean, you said the most iconic one already All of them are bangers, Pieces cost you your strength. Victory has defeated you, Victory has defeated you. Oh, right? Theatricality deeception. powerful allegance to the uninitiated, but we are initiated, aren't we, Bruce Buzz The League of Shadows. So, so so good. I love, of course, you think Darkness is your ally. You merely adopted the dark. I was born and molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man. By then it was nothing to be but blinding and then he turns and he grabs him. He just has the edge in every respect there. The shadows betray you because you belong to me in the the cracking of the mask The way that he hoists him up like he is around and snaps him over his knee and then discards him like trash. It's an epic villain moment for Bane and it's for Bruce as our hero like to see him brought low and then have to decide to try to crawl out of the pit and fight his way back. That helplessness for a character who is defined But all it needed was a rope swing. All you need is that little that kind of like little thing to hang from and someone to punch your vertebrae back in and you pit the fact that it's called the pit, it's like the pit comes to the pit. greatreat medical drama cross over there.., potential for us here on What's throw that out?. What's the nights shift of that b Dr. Allllis. Okay. Let's find out. Yeah. You know, Bruce is like part of crafting and forging the Batman persona in the first place is like, I'll be the one to figure this out. I'll be the one right Th my money, through my means, through my tech, but really just the sheer force of will and intention. And for being to take that from him is like I just think incredible to takeake Batman's prep time, right? Exactly. That's right U Okaykay I this is hard because I have it in like nine different categories, but I think I have to give it to the climb The she passara she Pasara. That scene just like real the way that he shot it Uh firstirst of all, the way that they built like one hundred and twenty foot u well drop. So not the whole thing that you see, but one hundred and twenty feet of it, they actually physically built. So that, you know, and of Cion Bill had to like climb down into it. So like When the stunt guys are like falling and stuff like that, like they're following falling down a down a thing. The way that it's shot to look like, I mean, we get that clip together, but like Thomas Wayne coming down. So like you mentioned like the Leag of Shadows Bookkends is not your favorite thing, but I do think there are other closing of the loop moments inside of this movie that really work for me. and that's one of them. The design on that whole, you know, that the pit h is incredible to me. the the way that those sort of Esher que steps, which are based off the steps at the Chan Bavi Stepwell in India, which I know from the fall, one of my favorite visual movies of all time, but they shot on location there. They just replicated it here. but like just the design of that All the people down at the bottom chanting and the bats and the thematic nature of it and stuff like that,'s just like the climb works for me. It rises. arises so does Bruce Wayne. It's great. I love it. And there are bats there. Sear to me. This movie is reated PG thirteen, which means can have exactly one F b? Where would you put it? In the opening sequence, I don't believe we actually see the plane hit the ground. We don't see the shell of the plane hit the ground, despite it looking stunning the way it drops and descends towards the Scottish countryside I would have loved to have seen it hit and I would have loved to have punctuate it with Aiden Gillen going and c You can even cut it. You could do the Spider Man T thing. cut it off. Yeahah. Great one. Yeah Um, I think it's appropriate that these ps center around little finger and Citic. I'm going with a Daggget scene. I'm going with Daggget and Bean Because you could put like twenty fucks into the scene because he says what the hell is going on, but let's sorry right there, what the fuck is going on, right? plan is proceeding as expected Really? Do I look like I'm fucking one running Wne Enterprises right now? Like everything he says in this stretch No, you stay here. I'm in fucking charge. I pay you a small fucking fortune. What the fuck is this? All of it. It's just He should be saying fuck all the time There's no version of the scene where this character wouldn't be saying fuck all the time. And then he dies, obviously. It's funny that it's like clear that Bane is you think he's gonna snap his neck, but then there's like a really long haunting scream So I could see just like smushing his skull Oh actually mountain popping it and I'm like a great that would be gradual Yeahful enough. Yeah. Yeah So what's your picture People know you can't come into my fucking neighborhood without asking politely. There you know. Lelina. Kyle.. All right, he doesn't speak English. if he does, it's with an accent thicker than sauerkraut sauce M most baffling accent, this has been a fun runner. You can pick Bane if you want. I'm going with Aiden Gillan, the King of the Bad accents because what the fuck is Aidan Gillan ever doing? Even in Sink Street when he's Irish, I'm just like not really sure what Aidan Gillan's ever doing Tommy Carcetti mayayor of Baltimore, like don' I don't understand he's really in littleittle finger like Memorable shade, Mmorable shade of territory here where you're like this is changing not only season to season and episode line toode, but line to line. What's your? I'm gonna pick Baine. Yeah. I mean it's Bartley Gorman, I think is the name of the f picked and's it's an inspired choice. I like a lot of research going into it. It just it just really does hurt this movie My pick is Bain Voice. I don't know how it couldn't be Bain Voice, but I love it I love it and I'm glad did it, but I think it fits the prompt of most baffling, certainly. It's baffling. I happen to think it works but it's baffling. What's our most baffling overall, and is it Kenneth Browna in tenenet We've had them weve had some really good ones for this category. Yeah veryery special category. Okay. Hm No one cared who I was until I put on the mask. Best use of Nolan verse regular in this movie. I mean, Killian Murphy, I think. Hell yeah. It gotta be him. Welcome. He's so great. Welcome to the cranace I'm going with Anan Hathaway here.. I mean, I become a future regular obviously with Interstellar and now of course The Odyssey, so I think she she's eligible because she's she's going for the three p now Just fantastic as we already ye on, the best We usually pick Michael Cain, and obviously there's a category here that we can definitely celebrate Michael Canain in, but like Michael Caine has won that category more often than not in this rewatch of all these movies. He's very special, but Anne Hathaway, my God. All right Why do we fllow so that we can speaking of? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up. B stunt Egg boss? True to the quote itself, It's her backwards fall out of the window. No. It's just so beautiful. Yeah such a beautiful dive. I assume that there did she do that herself? I don't know how they did that stunt. There had to have been like a pad like right underneath there, but she just like really like really goes for it and like She did say she did most of her stunts. I mean, I think she does. A run up for me is just after she says the no killing rule and then just does her leg. Like Nolan doesn't even give her the framing that she deserves for that. You just see her just basically her leg window wash the frame Yeah. And I'm like, she did that. That's incredible. Yeah. She's great. Very limber. Have you seen the footage of her stunt double in the batpod just like demolishing an iMX camera? Y. I just lost control of the batpod cost them so much money. There's also behind the scenes of like the um The bat. which they had like mounted on a vehicle, right? And they just like runs into a building by accident like a bunch of it breaks off and someone off camera is like, that's gonna be expensive. Incredible. U Mallory Rubens. This was where I had what you already picked another category, Joe, Bruce making the jump, making the climb in the pit because we do get the actual, you know, payoff of the jump. But yeah, in case this hadn't been selected in another category, it's such a wonderful, not just that actual scene in sequence, but the build because you have the first attempt You know, you have the healing of the back, you have hearing the tales of this one child who did it. Then you have the first failed attempt, right? You have the doctor's lessons, feear is why you fail. and then the second attempt, also just like slipping, not even missing the jump, but just slipping before he even gets there that time and the conversation about like not fearing death. and then the third jump to suc the fact that he passed ' I love that exchange about like, oh, you're packing cute. And it's like, I'm gonna fucking make it. Noope, do it. No U And I always get a chill when when he says, what does the chant mean? Rise? It's like it's just really, really, really great. And like you said, Joe, the connections to the well in the first movie very satisfying. Very satisfy Amateur S the Sn G get Eaten P powerower stays in the shadow, stealth MP of this movie that not enough people talk about What your answer? The snow flurries of the Pittburgh I think like the geographic space is lost in this movie. It doesn't have a good sense of geography because he's mixing Los Angeles and New York and Pittsburgh. But just when those snow flurries are activated in the final forty five minutes of the movie it all comes together. I believe it gives the texture that I was missing from the setting I love that. Great back. I didn't really have like a good pick for this one Maybe because this is like the billion Okay I' done on this and I'm out of like stealth candidates, but I This is gonna to be a controversial choice, okay I'm gonna give it to Richard King who is the sound designer of this movie because I watched him I watched this a little feature out of him and Han im are talking about the score and the sound at the same time. And he just like basically looks like he's crying when he's talking about how Bade voice legible. Like becauseuse he was like for a while we were trying to make like little like hydraulic sounds or like there was some sort of like mask sound that he's like, but no one could understand it. So like poor Richard King, who at the end of the day, I do think you can mostly understand Bane. And this is not his, you know, it's ADR, it's all this other stuff. Christian Bale has talked about the fact that like he and Tom Hardy because they were both masked and probably because of those like really noisy IiMax cameras. and they were far away and they were like yelling their lines at each other and they couldn't hear each other. And so Nolan's like, you're missing your cues. And so they developed like hand cues for each other. So like Bale would like say his line and then he would be like is. say is. Its like you can't see him in the movie' just like he' Just imagining like the water I think this has to be like their fight scene. It's like the water rushing down, the IMAX camera whirring and then mask mask and they're just and then like whatever Choices, Tom Harty speaking in that moment. It is so funny. All right, you're waiting on a train a train that will take you far away, Best deead wife slash woman moment of this film I name Coseyard. L just the will like it almost like she was like lunging into death in that moment. just the final breath she wanted it out of her lungs as soon as possible. She's like, I'm doneone with this movie. No one's gonna like me in this movie. I am dired. All right, Mal Irban. So I wanted to make a Rachel centric pick here, but I'm going to do that in another category to talk about that Alfred Bruce Fight. So I'm going with the leegend of the Mercenary. The fact that for two out of the three movies in this trilogy really center on Rosacle's dead wife. Just just unnamedam unnamed dead wife. Yeah. He works for a local warlord fell in love with the warlord's daughter. Mercenary was condemned to the pit when the warlord found out but was exiled and said Tist. She took his place of the pit and she was with child. Yeah. And then all of the prisoners rush into her cell and chez What is the logic of the pit? The warlord can't say like, no, no, you don't need to go in. Like I guess he was really is there like a pit governor or warden?s like I need one soul. No reallyally mad about it. Maybe mayaybe there's some mad. I think there's like an election for pit Gvernor. I think it'sappointed pass down from sun to sun' like onene of the moments I love is like you're recalling that Ra says to Bruce in the first movie Yeah. onnce I had a wife, my great love, she was taken for me. and but then we just actually get that exact scene replayed in the film. It just cracked me up when I was when I was writing out the cast list for these notes and everyone had a name and then you just get to like dead wife. She, I mean William Dvane plays the president of the United States. He doesn't a name. Tom Lenon's character is Doctor I didn't look it up, but I presume Glenn Powells listed as Gotham Exchange Douche Bag. Glenn Powell in this movie.. But but yeah, Cusei is just prisoner. Unnamed deead wife is pretty special. That's not my answer. My answer is I already had this down When I was watching your video, Voss, you called it Uh versus Grief shelf which is Martha and Rachel and I wrote down as his offfrenda, but like basically just like just. The homage to the dead women of this franchise in Wayne Manor is what I. Do we see Raz's wife just depicted in some drawing and out of the sh on there Talia gets on there. They won't fear it until they understand it and they won't understand it until they've used his clearest great man moment Eric Boss. Is it Matthew Modine putting on his dress Uniform. blues. The dress blues. Just to die. It has to be that. You can't just wear here whatever the bathroom you were wearing, when you're there feels of gord being like, D did you bury your uniform? Yeah got you gotta break it all. Send your wife to answer the door. If Maran Cotiard had not cornered the market on awkward death poses. I think B Moded had a real run at it because he's just like curature Yeah, it's a real it's a real. Yeah It's like Mistee Man Liberty Museum. I love it. Great Lorry. I'm going with Alfred's plea to Bruce when Bruce resumes his training If this man is everything that you say he is and the city needs me, that's what Bruce says of Baye. and Alfred says, the city needs Bruce Wayne, your resources, your knowledge. It doesn't need your body or your life, That time is past You're afraid that if I go back out there, I'll fail. No, I'm afraid that you want to. So if we compare that to the note that Alfred was haammering in dark night We see this evolution from like Okay, Alfred Touch Bruce in Dark Knight whenrce said, what would you have me do? Endure, Master Wayne. takeake it. They'll hate you for it, but that's the point of Batman. He can be the outcast. He can make the choice that no one else has. And then Alfred says to racial in that film. Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being a hero, he's something more. So Alfred, the journey across films from make the sacrifice That's what Batman's for two Value your life and recognize what you as a man, as a person as Bruce have to give, not just what the bat has to give, but what you have to give feels like a real thesis on the evolution of understanding the great man that you always were. I love Mwayain. I think I want to give it to sort of the concept of the idea of Batman as a mantle. and this idea of just sort of like anyone can wear the mask or, you know, u whatever that case may be. I just like that as likeake an icon inside of this. Thomas Wayne is the great man though, It is really hard hard to beat. Thomas Wayne Badman Begins. they were just sort of like that that was a great man. All right.redible. He's the hero Gotham deserves and not the one it needs right now. Who was regrettably misscast and who would you replace them with? Eric Voss I think Hardy. I think Tom Hardy is again, I don't want to live in a world without Tom Hardy's bane, but if you could do it all over again, I think there's a completely different approach to Bane where you get like an Iress Elba in there and he is taller thanes than Christian Bale. and he does convey intellectual in a way that I don't know if Tom Hardy really can U And he is kind of a populist figure, a natural populist figure who would go out there at the end zone and work that crowd I don't know. I don't know if he's the right pick for it, but I just think Tom Hardy is so good in inception. I think he can speak Nolan. I think covering the face is really a flaw with the character, but I think there's someone else out there who could have played that version of Bay better Do you think Igislbo would have been like, The apocalpse is canceled? You don't have to be that voice They're like, Tom Hardy made this decision. We ended up firing him, but you still need to do the voice. Th those are the rules. Obviously, I can't agree, but I respect your opinion. I would love to recast Aidan Gillan. and I think genuinely like an opening scene and that makes me like pretty worried about how the rest of the movie is gonna go All right, I'm giving it to Mar Cot It's not Marian Cotera's faall, but let's just pretend it is Nammi Wattson and Rachel Viss and Kait Windsl were all in the running for this role. And I think Rachel Weiss would be my choice at the end of the day because she wouldn't have that same inception association that Marian Cotiard had, deeadline at the time because they didn't know that there were two female characters in this movie. so deadliness like, these are all the actresses up for the female lead in this movie. And they were like Rachel Vice, Naomi Watts. Blake Lively, Natally Portman and Hathaway K Nightley So obviously like some of those are cat womomen and some of them are Talia. The longer The longer cat womoman list Angelia Jolie, Nalie Portman, Jessica Bele, Charlise Theron, Emily Blunt, Verif Farmeiga, Gemma Arteron Abby Cornish, Eva Greene.ike who got really close. I'm not sure I would have survived that, honestly. Kate Mara, Blake Lively, Charlotte Rileilly, Olivia Wilde, Lady Gaga and Kira Knightlely. And then Chloe Chrace Moretz and Jennifer Lawrence audition for Juno Temple's role, which is wild to me, because like Jennif Lawrence was already Like she win the Oscar in twit. Like I was just like, that's that's, you know, a way too small role for Jennifer Lace inside of this movie. But That's what you do. You invest in small roles in Nolan movies, and then all of a sudden you've got an oc for Oppenheimer. So good job, Killian Murphy. Anyway I will put Rachel Vice in this role. Yeah. All right You don't really want to work it out. You want to be fooled, most satisfying ist Eric Boss. I like the autopilot twist with the bat. I like revealing that he's still alive. I didn't need him to die. I like how that was set up throughout the movie.. I like seeing sccuba gear on his rec stuff. likeike you see a scuba tag Yeah, that guy has a water version of the suit. I like that twist. that was fun. That's my pick too. I mean, I think we're leaning into here most satisfying twist. because I think what you said earlier is right? like the big twist is obviously the Talia reveal, but are we calling that satisfying? No, right? So I think the moment that Alfred and Bruce share at the end, the autopilot setup Um Which we get many beats. you know we have three different autopilot notes before we get the reveal. likeike that's all really satisfying, but it's the emotional note, you know, of Alfred having said this thing to him very early in the film, right? this like Batcaave classic lecture that he gets about the what you talked about earlier, like that's seven years that Bruce was way hoping you wouldn't come back and looking for him in that cafe. And then when he does And we've even seen this like false across the way in that moment And we know it's not, but you like your mind tricks you into thinking and wondering and then to see Bruce there giving Alfred that little cheer. It's just like really, really satisfying, a really great way to end the their story. so I love it. That's my pick I'm giving it to the Ty Gold Well, I am I'm giving it to this Joey King as young Talyo, likeike that that is a girl you're watching the whole time Not b getting credit for a woman's work, by the way. But the kid being Taliaid being Talia, I think is a cool twist. All right. Talia, I being like I'm here to finish my dad's job in the present time I'm less good, but the kid's stuff is great. Easts the slow knife. All right, You do a good impression. I don't think so you do. It's not who I am underneath phrasing, but what I do that defines me Noan iss not known for sexual content. Let let's go ahead and try to excavate the horniest moment of this film So it's a specific U media illiterate reading enough It would be quite painful. You're a big guy. For you And it's like you're a big guy. I for you. too big for you. sa. It is inspired. I genuinely inspired. I think it's beautiful. Love is love, happppy Pide ie, what's your pick? I'm going with the way Catwoman moves when she's trying to open Daggget's safe in full leather and the leather is huging Every curve and every crack and it is very memorable and powerful. And I'd say even more so than like quote unquote Miranda and Bruce exploring each other's scars curled up in front of the fire reallyally good Right after that. Pittning Daggget's hand to the wall with her steel stiletto, heel and cooing, cack out your tongue. That's it for me. The heel on the wall is like insane. All right. And idea is like a virus resilient, highly contagious, the line that hits hardest fourteen years later. I'm gonna hit you with, this is particularly after our like experience covering Andor U when Bruce reveals himself to Gordon. And he says a hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a cat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world let him know the world had't end it. You know, it's everyvery little step forward, the Eemic manifesto sort of thing. It's just sort of like what little good can you do in the world, even if it's putting your coat around a boy's shoulders, et cetera matters inside of this fight. Gordan does it for Bruce. Bruce does it for Blake without knowing it. And Blake's like, that's Batman. Yeah. I mean I could tell, you looked angry. I knew you were a Batman Crazy. I really love that line. For me, it's and this gives you power over me. I love the you think this gives you power over me because it's like it's just such a great rug pull moment. And the idea that the prride and the arrogance of the one person thinking that they can control the world. you forget that there are other things more powerful than just paying someone' small fortune. I am going also with a bain line. I amm going with something we have shockingly not brought up yet, which is then you have my permission to die, which is iconic. and of course, Bruce gets to throw it back in his face. and so Gotham is ashes. It And that's the like not of your body of your soul stretch when he visits him in the pit to like really taunt him, to lure his health people get to visit in the pit I think this is rare. I don't think there's a lot of like, I don't think there are like a lot of conjgle visits. I don't think there are a lot of visiting hours of any sort in the pit. I think they just sort of like drop the rags and the scraps of food down the hole. Yeah They kind of dangle them on a rope and they wave from fifty feet above. Oh, that's the conjgal. exxactly. basasically.. Somet for the spank bank. That's it You know, learned here, there could be no true despair without hope, little little Ted Lasso. Yeah, Th then you have my wish to die, the arrogance of it, you know, thinking that he's won when he hasn't. it's great. I love that he just like put a little TV in there so that person It's so easy for Bruce which he does to just break it. did they have to wire the pit just so that he could do this? They tail one. you can't climb this HDMIactly. It's not gonna to hold your we exactly. All right, you think Darkness is your ally, but you were merely adopt the Dark. I was bound in it bounded by it. Most devastating moment I think it's like kind of the breakup with Alfred and Rol. And then kind of tagging it at the end when he tells Martha and Thomas' grave, I failed you like justust crying, Michael Kaine in this mom Really tough. Yeah. Yeah. it's got I know Other notes. Yeah. I did initially have this in the dead wife category because Rachel is the impetus for it So that's kind of amazing. A Rachel letter comes back. Yeah, dead girlfriend with the letter. How dare you use Rachel to try to stop me I'm using the truth Master Wayne, but It is it had to go it most devastating. It's just absolutely heart wrenching. What does it mean? It means your hatred and it also means losing someone that I have cared for since I first heard his cries echo through this house But it also means saving your life if that is more important than they're both crying Alfred emotionally terrorizing for that's just the AC makingake. It's not an earthquake, don' right It emotionally terrorizing for Bruce to even let Alfred think he's dead for a single second. You know what I mean? Like I understand he has to sell the theater, but it's just sort of like At that very moment, he is scampering around like fixing bad signals and like you couldn't just like say like Alfred, don'try. I'm still alive We'll see you with the Arno. Maybe if Alfred had stuck around instead of really needing to prove a point you would have been able to tell them. Oh, let think about. Victim blaming. All right, canan you hear the music Robert? Most Unforgettable Zimerism U I love the Catwoman theme in this. obviously the chant thees is great. my pick. Yeah, it's a slow knife of the movie score of the Don. And if you listen to the track on a soundtrack, it gets more complex as it goes. Normally in the film we only hear like the opening twelve seconds of it or so, but'm like it gets to this cataclysmic like ground is breaking underneath my feet kind of place, but I'm gonna to catch every ledge on the way down. It's a really beautiful score I love that The Deshib Basa Han Zimmer had like fans from around the world record it in advance because he needed that like huge chorus of voices. So you just had like randos from around the world just going like, d sheara into a microphone and that's in the movie. I think that's so cool. I think the way that the chanting pairs with the kind of percussive quality of the score into that surging horn. Yeah Really, really good. There's like like a religious quality to it. it's great. That's my biggest Well, I do think it' the lighting of the bad signal on the bridge. The scores really greatight there too. Absolutely All right, we are almost done. For me, I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship, quoting your favorite tenant. actctor who never returned to the nullen verse, but should Ben Mendelson. He yes. E exactly. He's so good. I picked him. Yeah. withith like a foot just a mention of Glenn Powell in case he hadn't come out but this point but he asked but yes, Bendelson Do you know that Tom Hardy actually bashed Glenn Howell's this is my real like Viggo Martinson broke his toe. that Tom Hardy is supposed to give Glenn Powell a cue to prepare himself for that stunt and he didn't. he just bashed his head into the desk. And Glenn Powell's like kind of I got half a concussion from that. Not You know, I think yeah, whatever. That's the mask. He didn't get the cube. The mask swallowed the s. tried He tried their cube. Chion builded. All right, some men just want to watch the world burn. The most known thing about this movie, Eric Vass. I mean, I mentioned the synchronization of impossibly longk processes that just converge at a singular moment That's a big Nolan thing. I think the nuclear dread, like it kind of started here. and then you would see that kind and I think that was there under the prestige, the fear of technology, the man opened a Pandora's box that it could never close. And I think that's going to be in the Odyssey in some way as well. What is the Trojan horse, if not Yeah, you know The secret doom lurking underneath. That's my pick too. Yeahah, absolutely.. All right, ourur greatest accomplishments cannot behind us. What aspect of Nolan's upcoming the Odyssey are you thinking about slash most hype for This this month, Eric H I think the idea of a cunning hero. L I think cunning as a virtue is underrepresented. I think self sacrificial is overdone. someomeone being selfless, making the sacrifice play, great, wonderful. I've seen it. Every dad goes through it all the time. Every mom goes through it all the time. Big deal. But the idea of cunning is a rare virtue. I think that kind of Danny Ocean someone who's like overthinking every scenario and doing it in a charming and likekable way that doesn't make you hate him. And I think Odysseus is going to represent that Ohh, I like that. That's that's a fun one. Yeah Like I don't I don't wantan to die actually like let me get back to like the hot people I love and want to be with? Wh not? My pick is Anne Hathaway. I mean, I was already so excited about the Odyssey and the cast of the Odyssey but revisiting this and we did we did in ourceellar a couple of months ago I can't wait to watch her cook. Do you think when it comes to Odysseus's bow, she's gonna be like, oops, noobodybody told me it was unstringable? I do. I do, actually. I mean hope I hope Um I think it's just the like excitement that I'm, you know, like the way in which I mean the ticket bullshit, you know, people being shitty about it, but like Just to scramble for tickets, There's like ways in which the system is fucked up and I don't like people feeling like getting shoved out and I don't like scalpers taking advantage, but the excitement over a movie ticket and this idea of it as an event and hopefully a four quadered event. and like let's all go watch the fucking odyssey this summer. I'm so excited. So genuinely can't wait. I can't believe for' a month out. I know Oh so exciting. And that much excitited for again, a three thousand year old story. What the story? story. We're all in LA together and are definitely gonna be the screening together. We get to like watch movies together now. tr? I think so. What is the con for this podcast in terms of like crossover events You know? This is like it's because it's not even, I don't think this is really like inside of Marvel or DC. We got a. this isn't like, okay, you've got to watch the Flash and arrrow this week. This is really like Marvele and DC came together to do a podcast. Wow. feel like I mean, this is momentous. It does feel momentous. It's momentous. I've been on the outside of the house looking in for so long, just hearing like the best takes about movies and TV. It's just been like, I mean just sitting here, listening, you guys each share your takes on this. I've just been like fraid I have to say something after this. so no, I want to just keep listening to them so. When will you come back? Yeah? Anytime you'll have me. Oh my god.ck. Seriously anytime. Where are you on' what's your relationship with Lord of the Rings U I well, I've done analyses of the Peter Jackson trilogy.. I know the text of the trilogy. I've not read the sumar. Sorry, this is not a pp quiz. You like' just like it's like, I like it. That's like I like the fourth line of the second appendix No! Name all the doers of the hit. I can't even do that. I Mishy Mountain. I like the rings of power. I think that's a good litmist test. So do Becauseuse a lot of people don't. Yeah. I really it They're wrong They are wrong. It's beautiful. You know, what I love to do walk around and say is Gadriel? Gadriel h I be out of a li. I think I've accidentally internalized signs Imance based off of you guys and just like referring to, oh, this is like, oh, a harbinger of something to come you know, a sign I importance. like that only came out of my mou because you guys have said it. Ports and signs. Port and sign. So a great.' fun. Thank you so much to Eric Cos. Thank you so much for being here Thank you to Chrisher Nolan. I mean Thankk you to Bane. Thank you. You know what, Tom Hardy, we've been hard on you. Thank you to Bane. Thank you for Marary Cotiard for your truly demented deeath slump. We really appreciated it. Truly. Thank you to Carlis Jer Voga. too Jacob Cornet, to Scott Lee, to Joe me a dinner on to our dinner roomqu. We appreciate you all. We'll be back with House of the Dragons. right, Check out Eric on N Rck stars. One of my favorite my favorite YouTube channel that exists. More than the Ring reverse channel or the House of our channel or outside of our own stuff. Outside of our house everybody else Yeah on the wide internet. Thanks guys. Bye