Lestat's Crisis of Belief and God

Hello, welc back to House of Ar. I'm Joiner Robson. That's Mallie Rubin, and we're here today to talk about the Vampire List at episode three Toronto. Fast forward, stop, Vape, check your phone, press play. Oh good. now he's a vampire And that's it. I think we did a pod. End of the pod. We are so excited to talk about this episode, an episode we both spoiler really liked. Yes. And we're gonna to get into all of that Rady for this This episode of House of A is presented to you by Target For thirty years, Pokemon has shown that adventures are better together, and Target is calling all trainers to the celebration. That's because there's something for every era of fan in the Pokemon and Target limited timee collection. Thought you found them all after the first drop Sink again two just landed featuring life sized Pokemon puzzles and an instant print digital camera. The entire collection is in store And online. so check it out now. Explore now at target. com This summer, FandDool is the best place to bet on goals. Including equalizers. Uuh? Yeah Petters. Every goal is worth more on fan dool. So let there be goals. New customers get three hundred fifteen bonus bets guaranteed when you bet five dollars for seven days. twenty one plus in present in select states. First online real money wager only, minimum five dollar wager required for seven consecutive days. five dollars first deposit required. Bonus issued as non withdrawable bonus bets, which expiire seven days after receivivet restrictions applies, see full terms at fanand dool dot com slash sportsbook Gambling problem call one eight hundred gambler or one eight hundred My reset gram reminder, Zppy we're doing the Vampire stat every week. It will drop on a Monday every week and we are just gonna like zoom through this show that is making filling us with such joy. And it is sandwiched right between Tal of Thrones, which is coming out Sunday night directly after The house the latest house of the Dragon episode drops. Immediately. immmediately the moment, literally right after, right. And then Tuesdays the I'd say irresponsibly long, but I wouldn't say that. Let deep dive. D Mallory and Joanna. So that's you've got three blissful days with us talking about dragons and vampires and then you get to rest and we get to do it all over again. Except some weeks this summer, you get even more because there might be a movie coming out. There might be a movie. we'll see. We're a month away from the Odysy. Yeah T need to find out. Sheh You know what you Well, you can, I don't know An anyway, the Orials thing that we announced sold out in a day. It did. Yeah. Yeah. h'f a day. Wild. Yeah, l exciting. Yeah. Thank you so much to the Bad babies. You guys a roll. We I have been getting messages from people being like, Hey man, can you release more tickets? I've heard it's like a fire code issue, which is why we can't. It's not up to us, ultimately. Yeah, we have the space that we have. Yeah. But you know, anyone can buy a ticket to the game. Yes, you could be near us. You can be in the same stadium watching same baseball games. And you see Mallorory throut the first firstit. You can enjoy some boogs barcue, which I highly recommend. Yeah. The live show itself Sold out sold that. our little cluster of experience fi experi. are you enjoying this exclusive fan experience? in the pavilion sold out. But you know what? Hey, Oh always invite us back nextra year We'll do it again Um sounds great. You'll still be throwing out the first stch. It will never be me. All right. sppoiler warning for today's episode The Vampire. disiscussing this episode informed by Vampire isat and Queen of the Damned. And I don't know why the book is here. It just was in my bag. And so here it is. I've still yet to read a page Informred by, willill we make errors? We will, and we'll talk about that in a second. No major book spoilers until a dedicated book spoilers section, which is actually fairly light in this episode this week That's all I have to say about that. shouldhould we go now our opening session. Let's do it We have a really robust mail bag. We got a ton of emails from listeners A lot of them were like, Hey, Janna You're so dumb. Gabrielle is Italian in the books, which she is My defense, which I explain to you is that the audiobook I'm listening to, they're definitely doing a French accent for some reason, but she is Italian M Does her accent still need to sound like this? I don't think so, but that's where we are. U we did an interesting email about that about The accent among many other things uh, our listener, Camille wrote in to say in terms of like list dots um creative storytelling, right? because, you know, we're listening to Let's not recount this story via the failures project to someone in their gilded bathtub. That's right, I guess. Ideal Really? Gilded like go like gilded bathtub. I mean, I just I'm a bath enthusiast. I know. like but I don't know that I want a gilded bathtub. I'll try anything. Okay. A least one one. Yeah. sounds good. You like a claw foot or no U It wouldn't be my personal style choice for my home. Yeah, but at like a luxurious hotel, perhaps a castleort or resort something like that. Now I don't I don't spend a lot of time in castles, but I'd like to. But we're gonna go to a castle this summer when we go see the Mad King playight Exactly, right. Okay. exactly right. And I will take a bath in a gilded tub or a claoth tub brash both. Why not both? Okay. So Camille says, Uh, in terms of like Listatte's editorializing. Yes. She says, I think this could even be applied to Gabby in her insane accent. She does sound like a cartoon vampire, as opposed to a real person. And part of that could be because of how Listatte perceives her. This Gabby is Lestatte's version of her, a figure who has loomed over him like a shadow his entire life, someomeone who swoops in when he's vulnerable and sinks in her fangs, her hunched shoulders, her overly cool demeanor. and of course inspired accent, all called to mind a character like Dracula. Gabby's one of the true monsters in Listott's life, and maybe this is his subconscious way of reckoning with that fact. A very generous interpretation from Camille Interesting. I would say one that is perhaps more applicable as a direction to a book than a television show when legibility is an issue This episode, I want to get back to the emails, but yeah, let's talk for a second about why we really liked this episode And I think a main critique that people have had this season is that sort of like legibility in terms of like accent work or fast overlapping dialogue or you nonlinear storytelling. So how did you feel about episode three? Oh, I loved it. This was my favorite of the season. I thought this was great start to finish and you know, very in keeping with the flow of the prior seasons where you can really feel the momentum of the story inside of the season clicking into place I also just thought this was a great, you know, one of the questions we've had is like, how will Louis be deployed in the season? How will these storylines coe exist inside of like their shared experience or if they're not inhabiting the same room space scene, how will we then access whatever Louis is up to? This was an episode where I was like This is great if this is the solution, right? Just like put us with Louis for something that connects to their shared emotional history and trauma. But it is actually really specific to Louis. It was edited and entwined in a way that connected to Lestat's history and Leestat's trauma and experience. So that was, I thought just creatively, really, really smart. They don't always have to be across from each other in a boardroom that we love it when they are for us to continue their journeys in parallel and in a way that is very hyper specific to them and the people in their lives. I thought that was great the Nicky backstory for Listad in terms of us understanding and unlocking more of his history Magnus as well Very illuminating. This was a key character episode. I feel like I understand who Listat is much more than I did before this episode, but just the performances were amazing. I mean, it was gut wrenching what we watched and like very entertaining as well in a really horrific and upsetting way, which is what the show can exactly what you want Oft do at it's back from the Vampire Listat. Yeah. I thought this was great. Yeah, I really agree. I thought you know, there was Comedy Joy of the Your Biggest Fan music video, which is inside a really like sick and distorted layers of you know, truth with oneself, truth inside of art etcetera, et cetera. But That was like a really fun song. And then I thought loneliness, which is the song that closed the episode, was like far and away the best song heard thematically and just sort of musically. and I just were're really, you know, in terms of me saying I loved all the music from from the start, true. Yeah. But is it getting better and better? I think it is.es, you know, along with, you know, what's going on the show. This is this, you know, having Delaney here playing and playing this waitress character, but having Delaney in the in back on the show showing up as ourmond, like, you know, it feels like the gang the gang's all here in a way that they weren't in the first couple episodes. And then having Lestat sit down with Daniel, this is the format we are much more familiar with, you know, and as much as he says I'm not Louis de Pont Al Lac, like undone by a relentless questioning and the mind trick that he plays on Daniel and all of that is different, but it's still much more familiar territory to us. And I was thinking about this like You know, for the people who have been struggling with this season And their memory is that every single episode of Interview with Vampire is perfect. That was not my experience with season two. I kind of I definitely struggled with the first episode of season two when it's like Louis and Claudia on their sort of like Eastern European adventure. And then even even in like the second episode because I just wasn't hooked into Armande as a character yet. Yeah. it took me a couple beats to really get into season two and then I thought season two was a masterpiece. And then when you go back and rewatch it, I'm much more dialed in than I was the first time. But I really like I remember watching the first couple of episodes of seeason two and I was like, oh, no, is my favorite show not great anymore And then than it was, you know? Yeah. So I've been a little less stressed about sort of like any kind of confusion or in tone or whatever we've been feeling here and this episode just like really clicked it all into place for me. So I'm glad we agree U backack to the mailbag. I will say that our listener Samantha, I thought this was funny that every time I said the vampireless stat, she thought I was saying the vampireless dad and that's what she thought the show was called. Is that a good Father's Day kind of programming for the vampireless stat? The vampireless Dad? The dads were very present in the text of this episode. The parents are very issue episode. Good time for that email Ie to say goddamn, why are all the French people speaking accented English with each other? And you know what? I agree Let's all speak French with subtitles or dial the accents down a little. I don't think it would hurt anything Our listener, Owen wrote into in response to the conversation we had about Gabriella, Gabriella, about feeling like a man trapped in a woman's body and how she feels liberated by vampirism. He brought up this book that I loved from last year, Bury My Bones in the Midnight Soil, V Is Schwab. And I just wanted to say a little promo Sandie Comicon interviewing V Schwab for her like spotlight author spotlight. So that is really exciting. We will also like the whole ringverseruise That's right Sandy Comicon can't make like specific announcements, but we will be there. But if you want to come see V Schwab talk about her incredible Vampire book, among many other things, I will be there too. So come join us But yeah, that book rules and that book does engage with this exact same sort of idea Um TCS wrote in into let us know that when Annerice did her book signing for Memnch the Devil, one of the books that I referenced in terms of like Listot drinking period bllood. she was carried into the event inside of a casket, and I just love knowing that about Anne Rice. So give you some ideas for my nextor O live podcasts, anything. Yeah. I mean, we've got cameras in the studio and we have a door. Sh And we have staff and hallways. Yeah. do they definitely want to carry elevators L all of it Pallbe me ramps to the parking garage. Yeah. Yeah it up. Yeah, ye yeah. M just like wheel me in on squeaky wheels. All right. So and then last not least, Leah wrote in, we did not watch the Talamaska show No that I guess has now been cancellled. Yeah, the expansive universe stuff is not super working out here. but Um, Leah wrote in with some important information about the great conversion and the Telamosca. She's like, is the Telamosca anti great conversion? That was allegedly the reason they want to publish Daniel's book. It was meant to be a warning, right. However, at the end of the Talam Mosca spino offff Some higher ups capture the snarky vampire played by the greatreat Willam Fickner, lock him in a basement with a bunch of sedated bodies and order him to turn all of them So at least one faction has a conflicting goal. Classic espionage chef, their secrets have secrets. So where the Tleamaska stands of the Great Conversion Open question mark, but for those people like us who did not watch the Talamasca show, I thought that was some interesting. Important information. Yeah. Okay. U this episode is directed by Claudia Claudia Yosa and written by Ansuri Roy. And she's a playwright, incredible Canadian playwright, a storied famed beloved Canadian playwright. And I you know, we loved the writing in this episode. just. And I mean, even though we had like music videos and a lot of grand sequences, very bloody murders, ripping spines, et cetera fifty two minute episode didnn't keep a stopbx running ty five minutes of this is the interview the interview Yeah, which is a very play like Yeah And you know, we got the Daniel doing his best, Erl Morris with like you're gonna to look at me through this cor. I'm not gonna But did you people in a room with other people watching them interact? Yeah. as they talk. didid it make you think of our te our teleprompter? It did, it did actually. It really did. Yeah. Just always thinking about the studio where we spend so much of our alves, whereere we live now All right, let's go now into our deep ish dive. Are you looking for support in your weight management journey? 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Bbound is a prescription medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity, or some adults with overweight who also have weight related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off Zepbound is approved as a two point five, five, seven point five, ten, twelve point five, or fifteen milligram injection Zepbound contains terzepatide and should not be used with other terzepotide containing products or any GLP one receptor agonist medicines. It is not known if zbound is safe and effective for use in children. Don't share needles or pens or reuse needles. Don't take if allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medary thyroid cancer, or if you've had multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type two Tell your doctor if you get a lump or swelling in your neck Zbound and call your doctor if you have severe stomach pain or a serious allergic reaction. Severe side effects may include inflamed pancreas or gallbladder problems. Tell your doctor if you experience vision changes before scheduled procedures with anesthesia. If you're nursing, pregnant, plan to be, or taking birth control pills. Taking Zbound with a sulfonal urea or insulin may cause low blood sugar side effects include nausea, diarrhea and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and worsen kidney problems T to your doctor. callall one eight hundred five four five five nine seven nine or visit zppbounds. liily. com Looking to see what's happening around your home Ring's battery doorbell helps you track packages and see who's at your door in real time The Outdoor Cam pllus protects your yard at night with a wide field of view and clearer retinal two K video, or upgrade to four K cameras and doorbells with retetinal vision for ultra clear zoom in detail Your door, your yard, your home. With Ring, it's protected. Shop cameras, doorbells, and more at ring d. com now All right, so we open with Sfhia Listott on the tail end of a bender and we get this, I mean, it's a great sequence with the honeymooners here. incredib and the photo sequence. But we get this Listott complaining about the Toronto skyline, right? The CN tower is something that he finds particularly offensive. under forty seven floor water pick Tough feedback from Listot. Tough beat for the CN Ter. Guess what? It's gone by the end of the episode, which is, you know, a wild bkend to this episode I I don't know what's going on here. Do you have any thoughts about you know Did they make it obvious enough that that's what was happening? 'Cause I heard from some people that they like missed it that entire skyscraper classass. I felt like it was pretty obvious, but you know, hey guys, the SN tower no longer exists in this world, I guess. You know, Maybe it depends on which side of the to them, it's iconic line from Lestat that you follow on in terms of how you think about that skyline I so Let me answer your question by asking you a question. because I this is something on my mind. You know, we've moved through some locations, right? Detroit. Sooledo, Toronto. The idea of the great conversion is the percolopulating great of percolating across the season, so far the three episodes and the prior seasons We've gotten a lot of heavy harbagers. We have a couple more in this episode. For specific characters, but also a larger sweeping doom. Yes is anything power outage earlier in this season. the crumbling of a landmark in a given city's skyline Hyper specific to a thing that is happening in that place Or would we be seeing something no matter where Lestat and the band happen to be at a given moment in time? Is the peril so vast and sprawling already that any city they were in, something bad would be happening orr are they following it? Is it following the char? Are they bringing the pl to the placeanks? It's a great question. I don't have a specific book answer for you, neither here nor in the spoiler section because this is like bit of a liberty that they're taking. so I don't know the answer, but I think that's a great question to ask. are Skyscrapers dropping like flies around the world. feel like I feel like we would have seen some news reports or something like that if that were the case. Right. So all of the cell phones are covered with the blood of the recently eaten drink and dead So it's hard to load up the news feed having just That was so funny. the comments from the photos she was taking to just coverred them come blood and the photo bomb from me. Babrielous smile and that Re, really funny. I will be calling Gabriella Sfhia. in exchange like, you know, we're going now. All right.. An interview with A vampire The familous ever love to the interview in a car f of corpses, you can see Chistine in full crisis mode. I love Christine.. Where are you? Where are any of us really? Where any of us really incredible? He lovever I didn't need to skip over this. Lasade gives a very evocative description of the tour of the Great Lakes that they take. That's right. How did you feel about that? I'm interested in his assessment of all aspects of Americana. Yeah. You know, I think for different reasons than his mother slash fledglingage. She's really like, why did you choose this place over me? and I'm like L stots to tour guide for exploring different regions, whether you're a rock star in a band or you're just interested in seeing more of the world. Yeah. I love the feedback is always so I love like whatever he decides is Withering as an indictment of a place, and then obviously in this case and in many others, what can with just a couple choice words and terms of phrase become overtly sexual in its description? Well licking the underside and rounding the shaft is not even trying to hide anything. It's just a talent that he has. It's just a talent that he has Um Chris speaking Christine, she calls Sophia a vagina passid cell by date very. And Sophia's like bet, I'll show you something in this episode Great use of the public bathroom. Yarda, spepeaking of has the herp, apparently? Yeah. So vampires can't get STDs Any worries here for Sophia or could you just heal right up? I think so. Yeah, you'd heal right up I understand the biology of these particular vampires because there's like there's the pe there's the crying, there's the yeah later in the episode, Jenks is asking if she can make a baby with her with her new group and he's like not really sure it works that way for us anymore, but we can give it the old college try Speaking of vampire lordrop, biological vampire lord drop, Dror Fried lets us know that mere decapitation will not end a vampire. Which I thought was interesting. So I read that as Double setup It is helpful inside of this episode to just prime us for the fact that after Louis cuts off the head of one of uh killers House guards, he's gonna to be able to then interrogate him. interrogate him and have a conversation about the Star Wars prequels. Yes. Im. Georgear Banks tatoo. Impant to be prepared for how that conversation could take. Louis Du Pont toac know to George Banes. Yeah R forget You like While it was helpful to be primed for the fact that that conversation could take place with a severed head U You know, and we get to like class B vampire detail. So there's a little bit of lore there. like the more powerful you are, the longer you could your head could continue to exist as it was parted from your body It feels to me like this is potentially, and again, I know literally nothing about what is to come Um set up for how one of our beloved characters could perhaps survive a decapitation inside of the events of this season. I also think it's interesting when it comes to like Nicki's story because you know, we'll talk about some of the lore differences. When Nikki loses his hands in the book, the intention is that his hands will be reattached because you can just like limbs and heads and whatever back on if you work quickly enough Not if you then throw the hand in the fire. That, you know. So that's when he cuts off his hand, everyone in that scene is horrified. But when he throws it on the fire, that's just like there's no coming you can't repacee the ash back onto. though Dpends how old the vampire is. because in the book when Magnus Magnus kills himself by fire and then he makes Listot promise to sprinkle his ashes because he's like, if you don't do that, I might come back and who knows what shape I will take and And ashes would recstitute to like a little ash monster. I don't know. It's a no for me. It's absolutely no for me. Daniel M Loy Death Watch. is this is one of those harpenters you were talking about. What do we hear? What does it make you think So We're getting the Daniel Bio Dietets, the many births and rebirths of Daniel Milloy, right? His original birth, the born april sixteenth, nineteen fifty three. It's considered rude to ask vampires about their personal theirmortal history. that was dead naming them. Murdered and reborn july eighteenth twenty twenty two by the Gremlin Armot Hysterical. The Kremlin Armond. I don't know if you saw the character posters that they released, but it was like the front man, the journalist or like, whatever. and it was like the Kremlin for Armond. So rude. very good. And then of Daniel, he led a brief incidental life is a vampire. incidental. Hm. Is that the right word? We're like intentionally distracted, I think, by the discussion of ooh, incidental is that the right word? fromr the l brief And this is not the first time that we've had this beat. We had the first episode, the Jenks exchange, like Okay, what peril awaits Daniel How does soon many Yeah, it's a question I have. again, I don't have any like, u book information to help us here. And so don't I generally don't know. if like Listat just thinks Daniel dies or if he does die. How many characters can we like think are dead and they're not actually dead at the end of the day. Like I don't really know the answer. And Rice is like, the limit does not exist, maybe. There's also though this is when he says like I have regrets when it comes to Daniel. Yeah. And then, you know, the end of the episode after Serving Kunt has consequences.ine. putut it on the merh and sellad The idea that what Lestat has done to Daniel, the way that he's embarrassed him and tricked him and deceived him, the way that he has bested him here will have played with him will have consequences. So it's like how much of this is about the trouble that awaits inside of their relationship and their storyline and how much of it is like has a larger ripple effect and consequence either for Daniel or for inside the Great conversion, whatever awaits with Akasha, etceter Daniel seems like he's going When I Get some Revenge I what happened here. He's deeply humiliated very much. And like when you think about this playful guy. in terms of the u Reminding us of of his biographical details,, there are several reminders in this episode of like you know, toddler dum of being a vampire. There's been several indications of that this season. And so this reminder of like, Daniel is a brand new vampire and how chaotic and turbulent those emotions are. And as like snarky and like world weary Daniel Milloy has been as a human he's a much more vulnerable like vampire. and his like Absolute relish at believing he he has cornered and captured his prey only to find him He's the one in the trap is an exquisite part of this episode. I loved really good. I loved it. And I thought I thought Ericaosen played that so well. How amazing So Dan starts his interview with Leestat and we get a version of most of like the very famous opening lines of the book. I am the vampire Lestatt. I'm immortal, more or less, the light of the sun, this is this is once again L like What can kill a vampire? right It says the light of the sun, the sustained heat of an intense fire. This is additive to the show. Jefferson Starship incredible You un wielding Coin members. These things might destroy im meine, but then again, they might not So that's the opening line and to your point about this lake. aheading question. like I think what can eliminate a vampire as old as Listot, notot to mention the other much older vampires that we meet is one we should be constantly asking our. Yeah, It feels like the episodes to date are really not just readying us for potential story beads here, but actually encouraging us to actively think about this. Yeah, what could kill Lestatt? What could befall him that seemed like it could kill him, but that he could actually potentially hopefully survive. I mean, he's already done that, right? Like Claudia and Louis thought they had killed Lestat and he's like,m yeah, I'm fine. These scars aren't even from you guys ome U All right Daniel like on the on the hu the entirep of Lad's secrets, the tears truth he doesn't want to give up. We get an early fake out here, which I really love because pres us to be more susceptible to the later fake out, right? We get the like overt laughing like crying into laughter. The way that like he peeks through his fingers as he's like revealing that he's laughing into the opening credits, like it's a great shitty moment, but it really like put says on the back foot when it comes to the later longer con than he pulls here. Yes. And I think the other thing that it did that felt very effective was like, put you on your back foot but also force you to lean in because you're sopelled to like How much of this is intentional from the beat and how much of it is that he is Lestatte is really feeling something. Daniel has actually disarmed him a little bit and unmoored him a little bit here. You can see on Lestatte's face every time Daniel goes back to the stutter that he is like, this is He promised he would not be that al andrise' riped up guys. Set fe I'm out gettingail. He's not vibing with this and he's pissed, right? But like so how much of it actually does crack through, He reveals something he doesn't want to and then he covers in real time, right? which like, who among us has not done that at some point in their lives. And then you know later to he when he is about to, I mean, I thought the reveal was so incredible for so many reasons, mostly Daniel's reaction, obbviously, also the incight to Listat that he would do this thing Commentary on the people around them and how they behave in the face of these people. Like when Daniel's like, none of you said anything, you know, that's really interesting in terms of like what we should be clking about how other people what their behavior What do these people know? Like this camera crew, like what do they believe? What do they know? I guess they're hearing all of this. They believe in vampires. Are they Tleamaska Jacent? You know, like Wh who is this crew here? I don't know the answer to that said. Yeah Early in the process of this interview, the following exchanges took place. I would probably also just be in a haze of delirium from having witnessed it. You have a song Long face. The lyrics are o o o wa wa O o o waa What's the story behind that And then building two. So not about sucking dad on the black Licorice front. No Incredible. Daniel Once again, like Tough cookie, being all of us sort of like pouring over the lyrics for meaning and being just like, what is this bullshit? Like how can you pretend to be an artist expressing yourself? But then like, you know you get to Your biggest fan, which is this sort of warped retelling of a traumatic event and then you get to loneliness, which I think is the most honest crucially honest reflective song from Lestat. Um On the official podcast they said something Rolland Jones said something really interesting the showrunner about this trick that Lasot Pose on Daniel, like that it is both cruel, which it is But also he's like Daniel doesn't understand Lott is giving him actually a gift here is telling him a truth that is not performance, it's not for the cameras. It's not for anyone else. It's just for him. Yes. And it's a story about a fledgling vampire who has lost, you know, all sense of self and control So it's a cautionary tale. It's a vulnerable. I'm sharing something with you, Dan.. And also This is a story that you should probably pay attention to, Dan, and none of it is like coded in his usual posturing or all these other things. So like he is actually he's crying and he is being emotionally honest and it is just for Dan and there's no way that Dan sees it for, you know, as a gift in any way, he sees it as humiliation, which it also is at the same time, you know A that just list that But. On this sort of starter front, which again as I mentioned is a show invention thing The idea that he got his starter from this traumatic event when he went to go see these Witches Burn and the idea that in the show, it's Gabriella who takes him to go see the Witches Burn. And she looks so nonchalant about the trauma that this has caused him as she's watching this interview take place. In the book, it's the priests who take both Nikki and Listot when they're younger to go see the witches burn and that Gabriella is That Gabrielle is pissed because she's just like, why would you this is so traumatic And also this is a cruel thing, this is an ignorant thing to do. why would you do this? So I'm curious to that they gave this thing that the priest did in the books to Gabrielle, and in general eresting. There's just none of the sort of like softness and kindness that exists from Gabrielle in the books in this version of her. When Nikki gets turned in the books, she's like kind of trying to help him figure out how to hunt, how to do all these things. Here she is just an absolute Cward to L she is so Cruel and all she cares about is dividing Rott and Nki. and none of that sort of like kindness and comfort that is present for her in the book. So I think it's interesting Do we interpret that as like, again, to our listener's point, this is L Sott's memory of her and it is only the cruelties O is the show sign trying to say something a little bit more like make it less ambiguous how Um you know, manipulative or, you know, traumatic the impact that she has had on Lasad is and not try to hide it with any of the other like kindness and comfort that she also gave him. I think in addition to the benefit of that backward looking clarity in terms of the impact that she has had on his life, his psyche, his psyche that he bad here in ways that feel simultaneously very like true and very then okay, let me like heighten the performance and spin this into a yarn in real time. Yeah. We talked a lot in episode two about like the way that the jealousy that was being conveyed on the Louis front, like what we were priming for there. So to show us this very deliberate attempt to put a wedge between whether Less That was already feeling distant from Nicki is like irrelevant A, right? She sees a or not irrelevant. Maybe she had to see something true in order to try to put the wedge in right But she's doing that for her, not for him. She's not saying It doesn't seem like you're like really into this guy anymore. orre you sure you want to spend eternity with him? It's Well, if he's around forever, like, what's that gonna to mean for me? I think all of that's true. And I think what's also true is that both Armande and Gabrielle are like This guy does not have the temperament to be a vampire, and it's something that you need to consider. And it is something that, you know, we'll talk about a little later, but like it's something that Lestotte had in mind when thinking about Claudia and stuff like that is just sort of like, this warning that he ignored from Gabrielle and from Armande about Nick you had like some mental, you know, illness before he became a vampire I'm interested in that aspect of like what partart of who you are before your turn is heightened and lper Soldier serum, Super Soldier serum style. And then because some of what we've talked about with Lestat is like and Louis, the aspects becoming a vampire allowed them to lean into the parts of themselves that they wanted to more fully be. And maybe it doesn't always go that way for everyone But in terms of just the history between Gabriella and Lestatte and what Nkki is bringing to the surface and to the fore there, I was really struck. she called him a cabbage. And that Lastatte looked like to turn their personal joke, their shorthand, the bubble of their world and their language, the thing that isolated them from the pain of the family who ridiculed and actually tried to harm them in so many ways. That's our little language of love. And then she's going to use it to diminish the person he loves. I thought Lestatte looked so truly hurt hearing her quickly say that. So that was really telling as well and a way that like again, you feel very quickly inside of it was epise, my favorite No, was episode three, my favorite, yes, but a moment like the cabbage teeam, which wasn't my favorite part of the season. but bore fruit here in a meaningful way. Yeah All right, so let's talk about him Darling Nicky here, right. So H tra nlot heard music. I think this is interesting and like they're making they they're pinning his age Lestot has turned much younger in the books, I believe. And so, but they're like, how young can we get away with Sam Reed looking here? And they're like twenty nine. sounds about as good as good as we can do. He heard the music. This is a passage from the book about Listott hearing Nickki playay He ripped into the song, he tore the notes out of the violin and each note was translucent and throbbing. What struck my heart almost as much as the song itself was the way he seemed with his whole body to lean into the music, to press his soul like an ear to the instrument. I had never known music like it, the rawness of it, the intensity, the rapid glittering torrents of notes that came out of the strings as he sawed And then a little later he says, You make life when you play. I said, you create something from nothing, you make something good happen and that is blessed to me So this is part of like this whole, I love this description. I love how often Nicks the way it's described Nicki playing the violin is violent terms, like sawing at the violin, the way his fingers hammer down on the string. like this is just the language that Anne Rice uses in this description of how Nicki plays Um And I love this language she uses about like the glittering and all it's as close to the ecstasy that Lisatte will later feel in vampirism here in mortality, right? It's just sort of this transportive otherworldly thing. then The Listat here he has this long sort of falling out with the church and with God because his beloved mother is dying and he's just sort of like, I don't know that I believe in anything in the afterlife. And this is when he says to Nickki, like You make life like you are the divine to me. You make life when you play, you create something from nothing, you make something good happen. and that is blessed to me, right? The act of creation, the act of art is a blessed thing. And so to think about all of that and then apply it to the rock starlistat and, you know, how he talks about the music at the end of this episode that it like pulls him forward and keeps him going, that this is his like this is his God at the end of the day. That was I thought incredibly clarifying in terms of like understanding why we find Listat in this mode of choice now, right? And when he says to Daniel like early in the stretch of the interview beginning this episode, it's like you're kind of like missing it, right? It's about pure expression. And again, how much of that is True How much of that is that pure expression is a way to attempt to write the record the wrongs and the record and convey his version of the truth. It's all of it, right? That's all the mix. But I thought that Um This was like a really great stretch of the episode that felt very like much the show in miniature. You go from caught masturbating in a field with a fewusic oxen, iconic, hysterical into that. I heard music Yeah. the comedy, the levity then the real emotional insight and like the rawness of something that is genuinely true, right? And understand, you know, because we have like we have glimpses of Nkki Prior to this point. But to really understand and do Yeah in this way in the season of Lestat star. Lestatte, music is my pure expression. Lastatte, I'm on the back end of Louis hurting me, right? That music Yes, it's something deeply associated with Mickei and this love that he is like still reckoning with and the pain that stemmed from it, but the idea that that was like an awakening That the music was a bridge to love. The music was a bridge to some sort of deep connection. So it's another reason in addition to that pure expression, the desire to be in the spotlight, yes, of course, the desire to be worshhiped. Yes, of course, that Lestatte has like chosen this musical So I thought that was really eliminating. And, you know, we talked about this early in the season, the fact that he like plays the violin on stage. You know, he could play and he does play other instruments, but like he plays the violin and that is a direct sort of connective line. And he tries to sort of play it off In this version of it in this episode, when he's like, you know, if I knew then what I know now, I would think it was like pedestrian playing or whatever. You know he doesn't need to make it smaller. It could be as big as it was for him. and it could be as big as two young men from a backwater town in their twenties going to Paris to be artistses, to be a musician and an actor and living in poverty despite the fact that Lastat is from nobility and Nickki is actually from a fairly like wealthy family because of his father's trade, but like they choose this life of impoverished like you know, lovey Bem basically in the city and how romantic that will always be you know, first first love not my great love, but like, you know, this just sort of like, how do you recapture that sort of like and This is the last time that Listat. This is the only time that Lestot the human will ever be happy. And that Lestat, the anything will ever be unburdened by the horrors of living with his family back home and the horrors of being a vampire. You know what I mean? Like this brief shining love affair that he has with Nikki and being young and an artist in Paris is very sad. I love the parallelism between that description of the quality and caliber of Nicki's play and that first love not a great love because even though it's very clearly revealed to us from what we glimpse in the past, and Daniel sort of like clocks it in real time Yeah, uh You buried yourself in the ground for a century not great love. Yeah. So we sort of know that already. Right. But like, isn't that often how people describe like their first relationship? Oh, ye, like ye, I thought at the time that it was the biggest thing in the world, but like was it now that you have some distance from it. But if you look back Often, not always, but sometimes like you learned something about yourself, at least that was meaningful. It was some sort of formative experience, something shared And I love how that built inside of the episode to like the way that Listot, because again, there's this large arm eleven like what is true is like at the time. I meant it. I meant it. I meant it. You know maybe does it mean that you come with distance to understand that you didn't mean it as much as you thought you did? Or that you've had to talk yourself out of that because you have some like I have matured and grown and lived all this life. And so how could that possibly have meant as much to me as it felt like it did? But like maybe it did think I love that. I think that We talked about this when we talk about Buffy, this idea, those teenage feelings and how enormous they feel and how like everything just feels like life and death. Now he's twenty nine not a teenager, but like whatever. But like, you know, that young first love. and I agree with you. I think there is this tendency to want to make it smaller than it was because you feel foolish thinking about how big it felt to you at the time You know, it felt like the whole world to you U Does the blah, blah, bl, B polar boyfriend? a quote that you cited earlier, The yadda, yada yadda turned into a vampire. So like the way we're pulling back the layers on the Nicki trauma Right, blah, blah blah, bipolar boyfriend is just like such a speed run of this horrible thing we're about to witness with Niki. And yada, yada out a vampire. I mean, Finding out and it's interesting. Sam Reid was saying in the official podcast that he had said before the season started that there was a script he read that he threw across the room when he read it threw his computer across the room and he said it was this script because he did it halfway through He saw how they were going to introduce Magnus with this like music video, and he was like, o no based my entire like justified a lot of what my character has done. based on the traumatic way in which he was assaulted and abused and turned. Yes. And if we're going make a joke out of that, what is my entire thing? So he like I threw the laptop across the room. He's like, Then I read the I rest of the episode. I was like, Oh, this is what we're doing, you know? that that sort of it is it is so key. as you said at the very beginning, it's so key Understanding who Lastot is his relationship to Louis H relationship to Claudia H relationship to music is all sort of laid out in this episode. and I think it's done really, really well. It's done with expediency, I think for people who are used to Chapters and chapters and chapters of the Nicki and Lestatt relationship. this will feel like a bit of a speedrun, but I think it's done much more effectively than the you know Aarne flashbacks So no question. Yeah, no question. I thought both in what we got to glimpse in the actual flashbacks, but also in the present day of hearing Lastot engage with this. Like I loved the when Daniel called bullshit on the first love not a great love line, I thought that response from Lestat. I carried the box because I destroyed him Dan. I carried the box to rem remind me what I was capable of, That's a really great way to capture everything we're talking about. How much of this is about specifically Nki And the guilt and culpability and shame and loss and grief and regret and despair Lestatte feels because of Nickki Some of it for sure, but how much of it is like transpired. revealed something to Lad about himself and about what he was capable of and about the impact he could have on the people in his life who he loved at one point, whether he did his full bame or or not then you that's always something you carry with you moving forward anytime someone becomes close to you. And I think specifically like in this episode, we get a couple promptings from Gabrielle for Daniel to ask about the great cononversion. Yes So this idea of the great conversion of like, let's just make a bunch of other vampires, right Well, here we are examining the trauma of how Lestatte was turned. Yes and his most traumatic or maybe not even because of Claudia, but like the very traumatic result of Lestat turning people. He has not sired a ton of people in his life. And so what it what does it mean to be a sire? and how horrifying that can be at the end of the day and how with Louis Like actually like kind of a best case with Louis, oddly enough, you know, at the end of the day here. So Right. Nkki choppping off the hand by fire. Gabriella, really loud bathroom sex in a very crowded public space Lou you had to do either of those things In exactly that form. U How do you feel about Sophia Yarda and that Dan Wig walking into a bathroom? And I's hysterical and incredible. Forever how I watched Pride and Prejudice. This was my favorite Gabell mile. I this was so funny. The like like, you know, whereere is this kind of like distracting? Can you go in there? Gasmic shrieks at being interrupted. The accent I have some questions, this choice, I have no questions, no notes. But actually I guess not orgasmicreeet because the feedback later was like, you know, it was like three good minutes and then and then His wig is is like slipping. Yard's wig is like slipping. much like the Wigs did slip in that flashbx event And also he just has this look on his face of like, what the fuck is happening right now? What's going on? am I am disturbed. I gr. I love this. And I love this is like It's an air device because it is distress like all the levels that Sam Reid has to play in this, like the way his eyes keep tracking Gabrielle and Yarda and like what's going on there. Yeah. So like his distraction there the sounds, that distraction. What he's revealing to Dan and what he's not revealing to Dan, he does slip, right? I think he slips when he says that his mom was there. And Danny's like, what do you mean your mom was there? Your mom What are you talking about? cooverred up with quickness. Yeah. Gabriellela to was like, what are you doing? What are you about to do right here my heart, right?. you know, and then the honest traumatic memories that are sort of trying to to bubble to the surface at the same time. But it's a great narrative device because we're distracted by that. And that's right when Lestott sort of pulls his glamorick, likeike you're in my eyeeline, right? That's our clue that that's when he pulls the sort of glamour trick and it happens like right around here. Um H up a video, Magnus edition. You're bigest fan, music video You would text to me that you were quite disturbed by the Magna's character design. wanted I just want to read this description from the book because I just feel like they absolutely nailed it, right?. Huge black eyes seeming to stretch the white flesh in deep folds, the nose long and thin and the mouth, the jester's smile There were the fang teeth just touching the colorless lip. And the hair, a gleaming mass of black and silver growing up high from the white forehead and flowing down over his shoulders and his arms. I think that he laughed. I was beyond terror. I could not. even scream. And when you think about Someone as cocksure as L Stott. being beyond terror could not even scream at the horror that is Magnus who would come and watch him perform nightly in the audience and then kidnaps him and takes him back to his tower, his lair, where there are all these bodies of young men who look like Ls. Yeah Yeah. like U and then it's all wrapped up in this sort of like Gauzi, nineteen eighties music video presentation. When Magna started like lip syncing to this song, Iet kind of died and went to heaven. I thought it was so funny. This stretch was great. This was obviously so upsetting and will grow even more upsetting over the course of the episode. Um He is so scary. And like, you know, obviously some of that is conveyed in the character design, but I think frankly, there's a way to like actually make you it as a viewer if you like just because of that or like this guy. so it can't just be that. It has to be the fact that he's sitting at the long table, the long table that he will then later invoke in like the soul at the long table, right It sixty eight courses and like're you know we're getting close to the the Westerosi Royal wedding course list there, my goodness It's portrait portrait of Lisat The Yeah premeditated nature of this hunt and abuse and destruction was so disturbing. you know, not to jump ahead, but like to prime for something we'll talk about more later when we get to the Loomy stretch where he is recounting in Claudia's words Her rape, her abuse, her assault when we're cutting to what is happening with Magnus and Listad, and it is undeniable what we are seeing. We hear the way that Claudia is describing the aspects of that that she has carried with her, right? And what that has done to her. We'll talk about that Le Stot's version of this is to say You, sir My liberator, right to turn this horrible, horrific thing that has happened to him. And to not let anybody see the horror and to instead say That's not what happened. R, Right? whichich is so deeply painful, but obviously also very clarifying in terms of what it tells us about how he has internalized the horrific things that have been done to him that are not his faults. And this is this is a truth that he We can't even tell Daniel in this glamored moment. It only comes to us in the car in the car haunting sequence But I think that like The long table language was so interesting to me because I was like, surely, this is a reference to something specific in the book, but it couldn't find anything. And so Then I was thinking I've been wondering in the opening credits, we get this long table imagery where it's like in the opening credits, it's like this beautifully set long table and then it flashes to like rot. and then it's like the long tableles inside and then it's like out in the woods. And so I was just thinking about like obviously the long table of his of like where all of the family scenings took place and that was like you know, him as a young kid versus him as a predator. like he comes back and he just turns that into, you know, a horror. and then This idea of Magnus like with the wine, the bottle of wine, which is like a very long sequence in the book, but the bottle of wine and the candles and this beautiful table that he set, but like this is the sp The Lestat is the feast here. When he talks about when Dream Magnus, Ghost Magnus is talking about the long table and the endless courses of souls caps it with when are you releasing an album, right? Andless I's like,'re ready or like whatever, but like Rom we're good enough. but But it goes back to that Baelire thing we were talking about, which is just sort of like feasting on the pain. You know, wanting more to consume more and more of Lasad, the soul, the dishes of your soul endless food for the masses At least about a thousand of them. certainly not eight thousand of them, but at least about eight thousand of them, you know, Cn't get to eight thousand five hundred stuff. I like to I think that what are you what are you feasting on? and what are you what is somebody taking from you? How are they feeding on you what are you then trying to offer up to the masses as you and keep for yourself. Yes, what are you keeping for yourself? I think there's also something really effective about taking like a familial setting or an intimate setting, right? That could be a table that you shared with a partner. That could be a table that you shared, as we saw in the episode two flashbacks, as you noted with a family and the idea that like there is no safe harbor, right? L especially when we're talking about Gabriella with Lestat. O obviously Claudia, given the way that Louis their relationship, right? this like adopted sibling it was very like father, daughter, but obviously brother, sister. That's a family bonding idea of like protecting each other, deciding to care for each other. Yeah. you know, again in this episode, obviously Listat never misses an opportunity to I kick at Armand and to like feel deeply wounded and insulted if other people praise Armand. But you know, is your're absent a very much a live father walking around that gives you this lowly idea of yourself to Daniel. So it's a shot at Amand, but once again, it's like Well, what is that relationship supposed host to mean and provide and when you feel the heightened absence of that. So like dinner table, just an effective Yeah visual for like how warped and weaponized family dynamic could be. And like Samriid has spoken very eloquently about the the way that The incest is used inside of the story and the warping of He's like the maternal bond, the maternal child bond is so sacred. So for that energy to be wared into this sexual energy instead is such a like enduringly damaging thing to do theseese ideas of absent fathers, like you know, I wrote this down on the nose, but like Magus you don't really understand why he's sort of like absent from the rest of the story inside of this episode, but like He turns the stot He's like, hey, all of my money's over there, You can have it. You're my heir, but I'm gonna to kill myself right now. And then he doesn't give Listot any instruction on how to be a vampire U And in the book, Armand sort of jeers atlasot about that. He's like, your mother didn't teach you how to read. She didn't give a shit about you And your sire didn't teach you how to be a vampire. D no one ever care enough about you to teach you anything? And like And so when you Think about that And then you think about Lestat turning Louis and all the instruction in care he gave to I mean, it's twisted and dimmented, but like in his way, the instruction in care gives Louis or the way he teaches Claudia to hunt, like all of these things are him doing it differently than was done f and to him. Even with Nikki again, like brrings Ninky back to mind for me as well because when Lasatte finds him, it's the music, but it's also a conversation about Fatherers What did he really say wanted me to teach you to be a man. thenen it becomes very flirtatious, right? Youre show me how to be a man? Yeah. And it's very sexual and we glimpse the You know, the extent of their desiire, but there's also this like, my father doesn't think I'm good enough He doesn't think I'm the man I'm supposed. What did he really bad about for everything? Yeah Um This idea that like Lestad is calling Mmagnus his liberator versus his tormentor It is very complicated in the books. like he gets turned and like all of a sudden his like fear turns into something else because it's just sort of like it's quite this idea of like this golike figure who has turned you into a godlike figure and what that means I love I love the em email we got from our listener, Jessica. who said it was an extended therapy session for Listot and the whole episode picks apart how we as people will process their trauma through art. There's the superficial and the pure, and they both have a place Lestatt has always been an artist and found escape and expression through that, he overcame his stutter and found his bliss as an actor performing in comedia deel Artee as Lelio, not Harleon Armand. that he Heighteneds stylized version of reality was his salvation and escape from his past. Even his persona as the wolf killer was a put on to protect himself from his trauma what he really loved and could not achieve himself was the quote, pure music that Nikki produced His performance was so compelling, though that it captured the wrong kind of love and attention and brought magness into his life. and things get worse from there. This is a cycle he'll repeat, the facade of who he pretends to be, obscuring who he is and wants to be. Now in the present day, he's still performing a heightened cliche version of reality with his music. His music, like the comedia, is dated and over the top portraying the past as pastiche and easily digestible form, this time as a corny music video. But then there's the reality, those diary pages that were ripped out because the trauma was so great, those awful secret moments that can only be addressed in violence and revenge like Louis does. That's what he can only touch when recounting his failures and running away Lat is only able to banish Magnus' ghost experiences a moment of pure world wordless musical perfection There's no artificice, just the music. and it gets a little bit of catharsis there but will be enough or will the cycle happen again? And then yada, yada yada, Kasha. So I thought that was great, this idea of like artifific, art is expression, art as a passage to a deeper truth, but also art as like a mask for the realities of what you're doing. You could do both. abbsolutely. And Lessat often does Uh All right, Nickki round two How does all of this work for you I thought this was great I guess we've hided on some of this already, but yeah I thought this was u totally harrowing and gripping, just so upsetting to watch the Um I think again, especially this felt like a really good way to link past and present on a number of levels because part of what A lot of this is inside of their relationship. Niki is like, I loved You know, I want you to I want you to love it enough to love me enough to give it to me Yeah this idea of what How central are you in another person's life if they're your entire world, right? That's just like,, that's the kind of coreext of all of it for everything, right? That really got me. this idea that you could have this great love with somebody Something has changed. you know, and Nickki's leg Nikia. has his his struggles, but he also is like, don't fucking gaslight me into saying that this is not real. like your eyes are different. Right. You're leaving bite marks on my arm. What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah. So all of that was great and Lat might have a more noble intention there of wanting to pr him, wanting to soothe him, not wanting to expose him to something that is Terrific and for Lasatte, as we will see it later in the episode hinted at like There's a new level of power and immortality, but also this like gaping raw wound of this horrible thing that he has just suffered through. There's all of that Yeah But Gabriella is also there, right? And she's saying the things about Nkki Tistat that we already talked about, but like I liked the way that He was talking about her to like, what is she doing here? What happened? What aren't you telling me? Yeah? Just that dynamic, especially because as we noted last week, there was the like what is Louis know about me exchang between Gabrielle and Lestat. So this feels like very expertly done to me through three episodes, connecting these relationships and different different people, different times in their in Leestatte's life, but Gabrielle is here and that's relevant for both of these relationships. So I thought that was Interesting. I think that's really smart. And I think that I don't know. I'm just so disturbed by Gabriella in this sequence and all of this. I think Joseph Potter who plays Nicki does like a tremendous job with this unraveling U And I thought Assad Zaman being back as Arman was fantastic.'s like he's like Pining for Listat in the box where he's likeable. I love you List. Listak was so good. There's not room enough in this box for your desperation. Absolutely killed me. That was incredible. Gabriella has her own agenda here. She asked Armand about his maker Marius and evvil quote older than him. Everyone has their own daddy issues in the show. Arman's like, I don't want to talk about my maker. We heard about him in season two. But as you mentioned, like a lot of this stuff was already in season two, we got sort of like the Armand kidnapping Niki and tormenting him Lestat saving him and all that sort of stuff. But u I think this is This is so hard to watch. Interesting adaptive changes here where In the book, Lestat and Gabriel have left because he and Mickei are not getting along anymore Uh, it has soured It's soured partially because When Lestat becomes a vampire, he can see inside of Niki's head and he's like, oh, this is much darker in hair than I knew it was. So that's tough tough reality for thoseose of us who are in therapy. It's okay. So people can see your internal self and be still love you. It's fine. I more empathy from our guyistat, honestly. But also like then Nicki is angry and then Nicki's love turns to hate and all this sorts of like, but Listotte leaves But he's like, please take care of Niicki and our mom's like, Ohh, I surely will And then Armond takes Nky's hands off to try to like get him in line because Nicki's just like running around the city, turning people, speaking of a great conversion. Nicki has just like no control. He's just running around and converting people to vampper in like plain daylight. And that's captured here in the Orchra pit scene where he like turns around just like shouts about the Tilata de Vamp de Vamp Pierre and stuff like that Um But So Lestat's gone and he's like they're like, okay, by the way, like his other vampire friends are like, by the way, Armond took his hands and put put the violin in the room where he locked him and that's kind of tough because he has no hands. And you know, but Ron's like, I was gonna put them back. like I was just trying to get them in l. I was going to put it back. No problem. But then Nickki decides to dance his own ass into a bonfire and burns and dies. All Westot is gone So the change to make Lestat there for this, to make Nikki the one who takes his own hands and then to make Armand more actively involved N in a tormentor sense, but almost in like a It's a mercy what he does here. It's a gift for Lestatte, and it's a gift for Niicki at the end of the day. So this is actually like a more sympathetic shading of some of the information we had about Armand because in season two, when Leestatte's on trial and Santiago' talking about Niki and he's like, he took his own life and Lestatte's like with some help then looks at Armande. Book readers are like, yeah, ' our momont took his hands off and made him like even more unhinged than he already was But in this version, it's like Armand helped by pushing into the fire and using a poker to keep him there Um interestnteresting So that's an interesting change that I'm not upset about. I'm just curious about. Are we trying to Shade Arman is a more sympathetic figure at the end of the day here or what the intention or what the result is from that. I like that it's like connects to a lot of these things a little more a sympathetic portrait of Armand there, but also like how this connects to Lis Statt lookingoo back and what level of clarity is he able to bring when he does, right? So in real time, you know, you have Gabriellea saying as I warned you, his mind is curdled Couldn't be less sympathetic, couldn't be less open hearted and kind and incing mock. Yeah, horrific. Ver, very very upsetting. Um And then he's like, she went to cofffin. Like she just went to bed. She went to like coffin And she'ing why I don't want to deal with this the lake Fle in Lastatte's voice when he says to Arman, the desperation, canan you help him please wanting to provide U to ease Nickki's burden in some way and thenen with distance, the idea that Lestat both because as we hear in this episode he's blaming himself, right? for did I didn't think that this was the right thing for Nicki. I got kind of like talked into it maybe againsts my better judgment and I I ushered him in to of life that led to this outcome, right Am I ready to like face that, Obviously he on some level really is carrying that with him and feels that guilt and shame. That's very present, I think, in this episode But isn't it easier also to just blame someone else for that So to say like, well, Armand, Armand wasn't this on you? Yeah. That feels very true to the spirit of Listat where he is really actually introspective and deeply aware of his own insecurities, but and shortcomings, but so much then of how he lives his life is to mask or spread the blame O Yeahah or to try to like over correct in some capacity Balance out the scale. Yeah There's some sort of vestigial remains of the idea that they were originally going to do the book version of this when you have in Season two when Lou Ya and Armande are fighting in S Francisco. and Louis says to Armand, that half blank, half apocalyptic look, but what does it mean tonight? Do you want to lick my boots or chop my hands off? So Louis's like, I know what you did to Nikki And then In season two, when at the trial, Lisatte recalls talking to Louis about how unwise it is to turn Claudia. And he says, her mind and her spirit will age, but the world will treat her as she is now and she'll be miserable and you will love her and it will spiral beyond your reach Obviously he's thinking about Nikki there. and he's just sort of like, if you do this, it is not gift to her. will not end well for you. and I know this from experience. What I think is really interesting inside of this episode, becausestantly you're so right to bring up the blurred lines of the vampire family because it's easy to think about like Louis and Listata as the parents and Claudia as the child or Louis and Claudia as the children and Listat as the parent But the way in which this episode draws the line between Lestatte and Claudia as like, you know, twin flames. I think is really, really interesting. And obviously like, The show has done that before You know, Louis's like connection to Sott and his connection to Claudia, like he has a type and they're sort of like capricious and, you know, and emotionally volatile and all these other things But I thought the way as you mentioned, those two strands are entangled over their assault and their creation inside of this episode, I thought was really, really good. I love that. I think just in general, the complexity of everything that the show is seeking to explore.'s just really it's just a really rich text and very satisfying. Like I thought that, okay, we just talked about part of Heelistat. Maybe it's about justifying a decision, Maybe it's a real belief, but he's like, I'm like freeing Nickey from something But then what does he say? You know, he's describing it Niicki May just w sound a low moan, as though he knew that in death it was a nothingness. And then that's when he like starts to hyperventilate. He pulls his mic off. He's like, I'm hungry, I have to get out of here, confronting that is it a Gift a reprieve, a permanent reprieve May but the other thing that it is an end, right? Yeah. And that's a really heavy thing to have to carry and confront. And also for Lestat talking about his own immortality. What wes? What waits if that finally ceases? I think it's so interesting because this this era in Lestatte's life, this this young twenties When he has this huge crisis of belief. And that that low moan that O, that perfect circle of the mouth and the low moaning O, that is a Lestat experience that he has. That's like a that's a direct from the book, Lestat realizing there's no God And Nickki has to comfort him through it. and he's just sort of like, and he just like is moaning and saying, o and Nickki's like, you gotta get it together, my guy And then to go through these stages of belief for Listat, So Listot is like vaguely atheist, doesn't believe that there's an afterlife. And then when he is assaulted by Magus. He says, in God's name, Get awayay, I shouted, I had to believe in God now. I had to. That was absolutely the only hope. I went to make the sign of the cross. And we get that in the real flashback of Magnus, we see Lestat both in the car here and in flashback reciting you know, not the Lord's prayer, but but, you know, biblical passages, right? And Magus is like, none of that, right? Like, okay. Then he's turned So L'ot believes in God when he's like being turned. and then once he's turned If that, quote, if there was a go, he did not matter now. partart of some doull andreary realm whose secrets had long ago been plundered, whose lights had long ago gone out. This wasing this was the pulsing center of life itself around which all true complexity reolved the allure of that complexity, the sense of being there. So this idea of like once he becomes a vampire, then it's like, It's not he doesn't believe in God. He's like God is inconsequential. The afterlife is inconsequential because I live in I'm existing on a different level now. You don't swipe God. If if that if that's an incorrect interpretation of this, I'd be curious to hear because Anne Rice's like snarl of sort of like religion and supernatural and all these other things is something that I am by no means an expert on. so I'd be curious if people have iffere interpretations, but I find that evolution of Listot Um So fascinating The last thing I want to say about about The Nicki trauma and how how it echoes through everything in the end of season two When Louis comes to see Lestotte in New Orleans and Lestotte Heartbreaking me is like, did you hurt yourself So thinking about Nickki driven mad by this, you know, Louis has come to thank Listad for the dark gift he gave him, right? Yeah Unless that's like, did you hurt yourself? you walked into the sun and tried to like kill yourself? And that is like thinking about Nki chopping his hands off. and he's like, what have I done to these beautiful boys that I was in love with? You know? And how have I tormented them? And for Louis to come and say It's okay What you gave me was a gift actually is this incredibly healing moment until the book comes out, you know? And then Thanks Daniel. Boy Thank so Thanks, Daniel Um What have we not said about this sort of magness in the car Bruce, Claudia Louis thing that you want to touch on here. Boy, I mean, just Jacob Anderson's performance holy shit I think On the Louis character beat frront, this was one of the things we were just like texting about after watching it or God was it in person. I can't even remember. Terrified. don't all of us I was so struck This show has an ability to really like Bull you over with a choice it makes Louis has brought out the pages. They're pristine This is a sacred thing in his hand and the moment has come to read them to Bruce, the person who did this, the monster who did this to Claudia. The pages are there, the words are there, they're preserved int tact He doesn't need to look at them at all. Every single word of that is in his head, it's in his heart, It's a mark on his soul And I just thought that was like, because we see characters who go on quests of vengeance all the time. There was something that was conveyed through that choice. I don't need to look down to know, every word of this, every sentiment, every beat of horrific turmoil and despair behind it and I know when I reached the end that just like really shook me But in a great way. It was an incredible performance. I really agree. And there was something about the visual of the pristine pages, even though obviously he's read them enough to like memorize them, but the pristine pages in this sort of like the in this Ziploc bag. Yes. immediately smeared with blood. Like, you know, the blood of the people all the vampires that he has killed and then he will he will burn them up eventually, you know, But like there was just something about that of just sort of like, I'm taking this out of case where it has been and I'm bringing it into the real world now. and I'm smearing it with blood What did you think of Bruce's Taliaesque posture once he got his spine ripped out And then his jaw broken. The slam the slam slam. Um You know, no one does it like Tal Ale ultimately. Bru is Bruce is the second on the power ranking here But u pretty I thought I mean, obviously, it's like what Louis pulls the spine out and kind of like sends the little bone chip outing. Yeah horrifying. the fact that he is then describing something that has been done to Claudia and you understand that he is like recreating something very specific and intentional deliberately, it was I also thought What I loved about the sequence, I mean, L is complicated. It was very harring to watch, but extremely well done. I thought the way in which it's just Claudia's words. Yes Like from the moment he sits down and pulles the pages out, except for the part where he says like, this is crrossed out.. It's just what Claudia said. Yes, you know, and not him editorializing and not him saying like, how could you or anything like that?'s just in Claudia's words this letter written. And the complicated nature of Claudia talking about how hard it was to like herself after everything happened and also the ways in which she like made nice with him to a certain degree sometimes the way she did feel connected to him in certain degrees and how complicated that was and how pulse she was with herself about that and how that feeds into L stot and his relationship with Magnus, and now it's like this horrible thing was done to him without his consent, right you know, Magnus does in the book and in here there's this language about like you have to ask for it But he doesn't, ultimately at the end of the day. He does not ask for it and he is just sort of like The way the blood is spilled down ono Listat's mouth and he's spitting it out and it's just like screaming horrifying. And Yeah. But that We have heard these things about Claudia, but I really agree with you to hear them in her words in such a unvarnished and There's no room to escape. For the people in the scenes for us at home. Yeah. what has happened here? Right There is something that is clear and intentional I think there's a version of the editing choice here that goes wrong Like I think there is a way that you could cut between these two things and like potentially and I don't know, I don't I don't actually know. I don't want to like imply that everybody thought this was well done. They well done And obviously this is can be a very personal thing to receive of course. So I want to I want to Acknowledge that, of course I thought that something that in lesser hands could have really gone poorly and gone gone run afoul of some sort of like Why try to imply a link this comy. Yeah, ye assals Um, I thought that what this did to under to help us understand an experience and an atrocity That is so personal and individual and specific to them, but also helps us understand they emotional space that they're inhabiting, but then what they do, what Claudia and L Stat, the choices that they make that are very different as a result of the things that have happened to them But also the choice that they make that are the same? Yeah. Eactly. like becomes a cover and a mask, what is A pain and a wound that guides you. And like obviously a really awful aspect in that is explored in art in shows and books of real life Is that often Victims of atrocities feel like they need to like justify what has happened to them. That is just a horrible true thing, right that happens to people And so like, I think there's something really powerful and poignant about seeing how two characters like dealt with a version of that So I thought this was like reallyally upsetting, but in an effective way that helped me understand the characters the show and s of humanity that it is interested in exploring and what an immortal life, what a longer life does to you. Some of that is I have more time now to lean into my power and to make changes and to discover something new about myself that I didn't get to do before. And some of it is a longer road to carry your own pain with you. I thought this sequence at the end of the episode captured that in a way that was pretty astonishing to me, so I just really, really loved it. And then, you know, there are also the moments like obviously I think it's important, as you already said, I think it's a great point that this is very much about Claudia and Lestat It is also still true that we do see things about Louis like He's so composed break though. he gets up and he'sripped Bruce' spine out to be clear, but like moment where he gets up and just like tears his lip off basically U little things like that. and even, you know, I guess on the shift gears from the really intense subject matter here into like the o, what are we being primed for in a kind of like larger like lower mythology of the moment front? But, you know, we should note that just the wall, you know, you had noted it you had you had um U remarked upon the honey trap language from was out in the beginning of the season for Baby Jangs. So obviously, that's like, you know, we had seen the killer tattoo so this is all like the relationship with Bruce. All of that is confirmed. But getting to this farm, the house and the the blanketing of Armand told the truth. Armand told the truth and these pictures of Lestatte everywhere. Yeah. So this question of just like, what is going on the larger agenda, right? Yeah. Is it Bruce? Do it originate with Bruce or is there a bigger conspiracy here? Yeah. And like there was that little nugget earlier two from Daniel where he was talking about The feng gang, like it was There they were this was organized. And he's like different from the other two attempts on your life on the tour. It's like there were a lot of little things like that in the episode. Caringers. Yeah, Portests and signs signs and Pense. but I thought Louis's respond because like, you know, we have Lastat constantly ribbing Armand, but Louis was like, what the fuck does that mean? Yeah, whichich was really interesting too. So I thought that was it's hard to really hard to balance all these things in one episode of TV, but this episode managed to do it. Managed to do it all with backing track of T Rex's Jewel, which is like I love. We already got a T Rex mentioned this season of just sort of like The way in which Listots band is like a bit of a T reX rip off, but like to play some actual T rex here was incredible. Again, I love that band But what did you make of, you know, Deliny comes in as this new this waitress character? We hadd already heard Louis talk about this. talkalk about this but then we see him there back at the diner. And there she is, a different accent. The actress's native accent. She gets to be British Yeah. How do you feel about that I thought this was really interesting and good. I mean the fact that Louis, like every other character feels pulled back in to the past and this unescapable g. The ghosts. I was chasing a ghost Louis found Bruce and turned him into a pile of assh ter pulling his spine out and getting to read Claudia's words to him Did he then say, and now I feel better No. he went and sought out that ghost who we had just heard him last episode say and it wasn't her But the idea that you could find your way to approximating this thing that you can't let go of is like very sad, very, I think It's what to tell her? like I did I did it But he can't. And it's too late. It's too too late for actual Claudia. She's gone. so this is like so You know particular set of circumstances that we as non vampires, obviously can't understand. There's something so I think relatable about this idea that like you would always be thinking about the thing you didn't get to say to somebody who was gone, right? But also it's like I worry for Louis. So it warms me to him, but like it makes me conccerned. All of this was an errand that the Tleamaska sent him on. Right. You know what I mean? or at least Raglin sent him on. So like what is the larger agenda there? Like you know, was it just cleaning up like fentanyl distribution in, you know, in the Michigan area or, you know,, what was their agenda? and what, you know Um The rules of like who vampires can kill, this is obviously like a huge part of season two, right? Louis and Claudia are on trial because they tried to kill aat and that's against the rules. Only a coven leader can kill So like Armond can kill Niicki because Niickky's in his coven. So he's allowed to as the coven. that does not break any laws But Louis's like fuck your vampire laws it has been like, you know, for a while. So like all the people that he killed at the end of season two and all by people, I mean vampires and all the vampires that he killed here Yeah. like technically this is against the vampire law for him to do this, but it's like you know when Daniel's killing them and Sam's killing them and L Stat's killing them. So like the wheel are coming off these our main characters are like fuck your rules. Yeah, which yeah feels feel exciting and wr and also like a little bit of quicksand for the characters to all exist on. I think whether it's something like a structure and a group like the Talamaska or you know, what is going on with these various covens and different places, the greatreat cononversion, what sort of uniting threat is there around all of this? Even something again, I think the way that the episode connected, very intimate personal things with like the larger macro texts was really impressive because to go back to like the Claudia Lat reveals There's a version of like Okay, Lastat has, um Hold Daniel a really true thing. He has also withheld certain things that we as you noted will access in the car sequence with Magnus and the spin in the crash Magie is Chris White te Sitching with a fit chain Yeah mid hallucination. Yeah. stat is like, I don't owe you my truth, right? In a story that is about what is true and interrogating that and challenging the characters. It's like you can decide what part of yourself and your experienceces to share with somebody.ike that's not up to them. M That's up to you. But whether it's like, we're making this documentary or I'm recording the failures or there are these bodies like the Talamaska who are trying to point us towards something or what is Gabriell up to what's gonna to happen with Kasha. It's like Yeah W Somebody is trying to gain access to or weaponize something at every point Worrying Last not least, well, we've got one coda after this, but like The song loneliness, which I loved And this idea of silence, I just want to sort of run through some textual stuff here So there's this the, you know, I'm just going to pull a Daniel Malloy here and look at some lyrics, right? Some of the lyrics in loneliness are donon't worship that grave, Dug on your own, donon't burn alone. I think that's about Nicki, right? Like this idea that like Nicki in the book is like wants to become a vampire because it's him leaning closer into the skit of death more than more than it is, I want to be immortal, I want to like be powerful So don't worship that grave don't burn alone, like all of that. But this idea of the nature of silence and loneliness as a maker. So like once in the book, Once L Stot turns Nicki and Gabriella Gabrielle, Sophia, whatever you prefer. He can no longer hear their thoughts, but they can hear each other. And the book spends like they spend a good amount of time talking to each other. Gabrielle tries to train Nickios or something like that. And the same thing happens with Louis and then and Lestatte like Louis and Claudia. So like Lastat is on the outside of Louis and Claudia can talk to each other telepathically Nicki and Gabriella can talk to each other telepathically. But The maker cannot hear that and how isolating that is. This is a quote fromom the book, The Dark Tick never brings love you see. It brings only I think this is our mom talking. brings only the silence. We used to say it was Satan's will that the master and the fledgling not seek comfort in each other. It was Satan who had to be served after all But this idea of like this idea of loneliness for Listad and how disconnected he feels from his mother. there are natural closeness from Nki, from Louis, from Claudia, how he's just on the outside of all. and the people that he is like who are reaching for him Amond, he does not want. you know what I mean? So just like how lonely all of that feels to him. and how he tries to sate that loneliness by performing to A least a thousand people, you know, sort of thing There's also That moment where Gabrielle and Magnus The real Gabriella and the vision of Magnus. urn and walk out during the performance. Yeah. And I loved that. And again, this is like This goes back to this idea of like Gabrielle and Magnus both declining to parent Listot in a way that was helpful for him. Is this him exorcising demons? likeike, you know, Nikki stays, by the way, but Magnus walks out and Gabriella walks out, right? R? Is he exercising demons there? or A they turning their back on his plaintive cry of like Who will ever how could anybody ever love you You know, and they just like coldly turned their back on him Um, they this is a quote from the book They never satisfy you the ones you make in silence the estrangement and the resentment only grow Yeah 's devastating. Sh. Nicki left him, Baudia left him Louis left him, Gabrielle left him, you know, like blah blah. Magnus left him. L's start set I feel like he's better off without Magnus, but it's, you know what I agree. And also Gabriellel, I would say. And also kind of Nicki, who was annoying me at the end. But Louis and Claudia, okay Man. lastast not least, vampires anonymous. That's h. Uh oh. Alex. Alex, Danger U, you know, he was warned It was one As soon as the camera started to pan around this for car, I was like, let's fucking go Arm Armont Really happy and excited to see him and obviously the like. I'm an addict. vism is a form of addiction. I he calls himself Arun original name. Really And yeah, I thought Assad like we should be scared for Alex. He is most likely there for Alex. Like there's no way that's a coincidence. However Yeah, what's true Ab what Armon is sting there. I'm an addict I mean, I mean, if you think about him in that box and he's like, I love you list I don't know. L was with Louisie too. There were a lot of moments in this episode where I think we got to see ourselves on screen.ust like not being able to help but burst out Iv you Listat, really one of them. I thought also Listat, before he kind of puts on the cover of like, I'm just fucking with you. the genuine obvious like, I'm as stressed out as I've ever been and I'm having a panic attack break when he's like Uh forty four shs in forty three days and no one cares. I' like, I'm pretty sure I shouted that to Adam last night. You' like eight podcasts in four days. Nobody cares. Relatable relelatable content. We have lear for in front of us todayonight. Okay Let's get out of book spoilers. Yes, tellell me. She has pyrrokinetic powers. So she can just like look at a vampire and they burst in a flame. That's a thing that she can do. Very special But did not as far as I could determine ever explode a Toronto skyscraper. Okay So okay, I don't know if this is her I guess those could extend to like blowing up vampires and also just blowing up buildings, I suppose. But if this is Akasha, it's earlier than anyone would expect her to enter the plot. So if she's just like already here causing blackouts and taking down skyscrapers and just like, doing her shit in the background.. That's earlier than I would expect her to be here. Or is it the Talamoska for some reason? or is it Raglin for some reason? don't I genuinely don't know the answer to that I'm curious to find out, but I don't know. Is it our mind? I don't know Maybe it just a lot of home rununs from the Toronto Blue Jays. This is just a bookspoiler section where I'm like, I don't know what's happening. Is there anything on the Regina Claudia front that's worth noting here? L this is not a character. Yeah. so So there's like Claudia's ghost haunts. Okay. Listat and Louis and there is like a like a attem attempted like seance to connect to Claudi and stuff like that. So like Will they use this like vessel for that or something like that? Is that what's happening here? Or is it just a way to have ane in the show. I don't know. but it's like it's definitely a departure But it could connect back to some of these other things that happened. Yeah. I'm curious, like is Louis just like I'm not ready to let go and I need to be around this person who reminds me of Claudia who has is gone, even though I know it's not Claudia. Does she actually look like that? Or like if someone shows up is it gonna Is she gonna not look that much like Claudia? G question. You know, I don't know But I was wondering is he going is this like a vessel? Is he going to find Is he going to try to find some way to restore essence inside of this form? That was the other thought I had about Daniel Be again I would be a I don't have any book context for like Daniel's death But the language is like Brief I wrote down the wrong word. It's not inc consequent, it's incidental life as a vampire.. Is there any way he like unturned as a vampire. So it's not that he dies, he's just no longer a vampire. Oh Sap. I don't know. Oh my goodness. I don't know. I have no book context for that, but I don't know. Geez. But I was just like, is that the way they get around the language of like, but when Jenes is like, he dies bad in terms of Daniel, that seems specific. Is it just Bojians's like I' I've given you three seasons of so much Sass. I bare, you know, I'm like sppared my ass for you in the bus shower. a mid busus to shower. I've had to pour both Chardonnay and Gatorade tough one for Gatorade, by the way It's interesting that it wasn't the yellow Gor, It was like the white clearish Gatorade. I love a gatorade. Oh I mean, a Gatorade frost is like delicious. Okay. I love. I pourred down the arrnal. I love a g Gatorade frost, pecially that got on the beach, wonderful. Yeah, on the Danielle Lat like Harbinger front too. I thought the I was