Class Mobility and Pop Culture

Hello everyone, it's John here, just letting you know that I've written a book. It's called Thirst. Twelve drinks that changed my life, and it's available to pre-order now. In many episodes of How Do You Cope, you'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol. And in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people? Why did it mean some things felt better? And why did it mean so many things went wrong? I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope. Meditation. Physical pain. Gratitude, trauma, and therapy. There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest, First is available to pre-order now. The audiobook, read by me, is available to save or pre-order wherever you get audiobooks from. Hello everyone and welcome to the Gratitude List where I'm still joined by Alison Spittle after our epic chat. So we're gonna talk about Gratitude and We ended uh well you ended our discussion crying, but also talking about how How you Really like The person you were, you still are that person. Yes. But you know, you're fond of you when you weight more. Which is a form of like gratitude. It's a very lived f sense of gratitude in the You're not like, I'm so glad I've lost weight now because I feel better about myself. Yeah. It's like I've always been myself. Yeah. It's weird how like I didn't realise that. I didn't hate myself until I started losing weight because I presumed I must have because I should. Yeah, but I didn't think about it. So like there's this weird thing of like Yeah, it's this 'Cause I didn't feel like when I got smaller, I wasn't like, Wow, thank God. But I was like, Oh, great, 'cause I am paying money for these injections. And I don't want to get sick again. But like even though that will not caveat will not prevent, but whatever. Uh, but yeah, I'm thankful Yeah. I'm writing stuff at the moment about my life and I'm and I'm like been through like quite a lot of shit. I do like my life. You know? I I'm happy, generally. All the time. I don't know why I am. I just I just enjoy I just I I enjoy what I enjoy and I try and do as much of what I enjoy as possible. Even though it's difficult. Like I'm living a nice life. I'm a comedian. Uh Great to be able to pursue this. and live in a world where I can do that and like, uh You know, I'm very lucky. When I moved to Dublin, rent was quite cheap. And I could be on a doll and live in a little box room. And mess about with my mates and try and do comedy. So thankful for that. So what would be the first thing on your gratitude list? Uh First thing um my gratitude list it is being a comedian. I know that's nice. Yeah. Do love it. I love I love that it's your responsibility for You know. people's enjoyment of that night. They may have got a babysitter. Or whatever, it is up to you to To make their uh night enjoyable. And I think it does come from this weird thing of like Do really want to be liked. So being a comedian really feeds into that. aspect of myself. 'Cause you know, you go up for twenty minutes, you have to have people liking you. in order for you to be able to do your job. And I do have this weird validation thing as well. You know, that like uh Uh There's this identity you have as being a comedian. That you call people civilians that are not comedians. way to go about. But I think I've been doing it for All of my adult life. And it is my identity. And I love the friends that I've met during it and uh I love I love the way that I've been able to express myself creatively. And I don't think I would have been able to talk about the stuff that I talk about. I don't think I'd be able to Talk about my traumas if I wasn't a stand up comedian. I think I'd probably bottle it up and have had kids and take it out on them. You know, if I didn't have this job. So it's sort of given you permission to See your own stuff as being just as important as anyone else's and having a right to talk about it. Definitely. Definitely. I think that's probably what I was trying to say earlier was like this sense of power. It's the weird thing of like you're being on you are you are on stage. So people have come to see you. So I am allowed to talk to them. But I think that I like because they've come to see me. So I I've put down the I you know, it's on my terms. that they're listening to me. Which sounds so egotistical and such the wrong It is the wrong reasons to want to do comedy. No, but I just feel so powerless elsewhere that I just Yeah. I I have a similar experience, but I think you have had much more for lots of reasons, not just your weight, but your you know, you know your gender, your um Your upbringing like I find the world outside of stand up. Scary and difficult to control and Yeah like stressful. But your interactions with Other people have often been very, very negative. Yeah. And that happens repeatedly. Yeah. So to be in a place where you control the terms of engagement. is very empowering. Whereas for me it's just like I've always been a straight white guy. So it's kind of an extension of that. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I wonder like There's this there is this weird thing of like sometimes I go like Why do I have like such negative interactions with strangers? Like why is being on the train weird, like. Remember once I was on the training lately to young lads for chewing gum in my hair and I came home to my boyfriend at the time and I had to be like Happen to get you know, and it's like such a I think it is maybe people sense that I really want to be liked or it is a sense of weakness in me or something like a And sorry, that's a bit dark, but like there is there is a part of me that like Thinks to myself, like why? Maybe I come off like a victim or something. I'm trying not to. No, but I mean, you know, when I walk on when I'm on a train, I don't people don't call me a fat cunt and people don't throw chewing gum in my hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And even I get like a high out of the control of a stand up. Show that I'm doing. Good. I get a massive high. I get a massive, massive high. The first time I did stand up comedy. And I'm better than any drug I've ever taken in my life. Um The set they it was just it was just something that I would constantly chase now for the rest of my life. And it's adrenaline food. So what's the second thing on your list? Podcasting. Is it really? I used to work in radio. Mm-hmm. And like Uh I remember so I was really into this Americ, the Adam and Joe show. Like this is this is eighteen years ago or something like that, like when I was just in college. And like But there weren't that many podcasts then. There was literally three. It was Mark Marin and that was it. But I was into all of them, the Holy Trinity. And uh I remember being in the office and I was Telling my workmates in the radio station about podcasting. One of my workmates, ah? This is for losers who can't get jobs in radio. Why would you be interested in that? But I was interested in it because it was niche. And I worked in commercial radio at the time and by virtue of being Like it's strange to me. I think podcasting is like feels like my life in a way that like So I am a I'm fulved in mainstream society, but I'm a little bit weird. But I can I can amalgamate con I can have a conversation with my aunts. Who are normal. Or my neighbours who are normal, but I'm a bit weird. And I've always been known as an eccentric who would wear mad tights, but like she's our mad person. Don't start with her, it's all good. And then like cast into me. felt like it felt like the way it felt like when I listened to the Smiths at the time or something, it was like, Oh, this is specifically for me and this is a thing that I like and it's not Uh My favorite commercial radio was like phone ins where you'd get weird people ringing in. Um And with podcasting it kind of like Only was it just a general phone in show, but it was a more weirder. gonna phone and show. Or or whatever, it'd be someone's thoughts, an individual's thoughts. Two people that talk to each other f but But like uh It yeah, it's more It's an incredible medium and I I started my own podcast years and years ago but I was in the top ten Irish podcasts because there was only ten podcasts. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And uh, you know, and then I look back and I I look back at cause that Spotify for some reason could show you how many listeners he had and I look back at it, so little. So little. But I loved doing it and I loved listening to it and I loved I love being involved in the early days and just going, Oh, this is for the weirdos. Now it's all filmed and you know, and it's not for the weirdos, it's for people who made in Chelsea or what which no beef with them. They're great. But like uh It's just And I do like that like More people are listening to podcasts and uh like normal people. And to deck of their own podcast. And it's It was always gonna happen. It was always gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. I I haven't listened to it yet, but I'd love to listen to it. Like if there is But they're The podcast will hop maybe like like let's say I don't know what the Ant and Deck podcast is like. I should listen to it. I'm sure maybe they're gonna have space where they're gonna talk about maybe Ants drink and drive an incident or something. I don't know. But that's like it. Casting is a space where they could talk about that. They're not gonna be able to talk about it on Saturday night takeaway. They're not gonna do a little segment. Go right at Let's talk about this. It's not gonna be or whatever. Doesn't have to be like that. But that's that's the great thing about podcasting. Is that it can be Two mates having a chat or uh a show about architecture. Like I only got interested in architecture 'cause there's a podcast called Ninety Nine Percent Invisible and I only listened to that. Because I'd run out of podcasts to listen to twelve years ago and I'll though give this a go. And uh yeah, that I think that's what I love is like just an expression of your interests. Great stuff. Number three. Number three is Uh the Bands Simon Fuller. So Simon Fuller is this manager who's evil. Uh he looked after the spice girls in S Club seven. And I have this massive, massive interest in Uh it's it's because I was a child then. the late nineties pop, early two thousands pop. And I think it's because There is a space for F So if you're a if you're a boy and you're working class, if you're good at football you might become a millionaire and that's great. If you're a girl in your working class, maybe you could join a girl band or be on page three or whatever at the time. Um Now I find pop Well it's it's 'cause I'm older as well. Like I'm not gonna pretend that it's 'cause I've got older. But I'm gonna say it's because there's there's less there's less chance for class movement. And like uh You know, like Some of the biggest pop stars that we have. are children of other pop stars or You know, like Tater Swift is amazing. But Taylor Swift's parents were bankers and it's strange how, you know, she was fifteen and able to be in Nashville and pursue songwriting. And it's like she wouldn't have been able to do that. if she didn't have rich parents. And good for her. I'm not saying it either When I was growing up I saw music and pop music and and the arts as a way for class mobility. I don't see now. But do you think maybe also social media and the rise of influences has given another route. So if you ask a kid in school what they want to be, most of them say well I'd want to be a YouTube or a TikTok influencer or Instagram influencer. Yeah. There's another kind of route to But the the The tick to like the like That's true. But a lot of them are quite rich. Yeah, you know, a lot of like TikTokers who are like We are gonna throw uh a load of beanie babies into a toilet. And it's like where are they getting all these bean no one has ever done that as a trend before having another But you well if you've got a phone. Yeah, you can do you can do impressions. You can reach a marketplace that will sort of can decide With the No m no gatekeepers whether you have sort of value in that marketplace. I find it interesting because like There's a conversation, Chris Gefford, the stand up comedian from America. He does something. I don't I'm not a fan of not not to be like I'm denouncing Marseille and it wasn't because I I wasn't so I stopped being a fan of the Smiths when I became sexually active. Uh such a great quote. But it's true. It's true. I do remember like that might be true for me. It's like I was listening to I remember listening to the Smiths first album while having a shower. I was like, do I need to hear a song about child abuse while starting off my morning? No. I don't. But like um the but the uh yeah, Chris Gifford he did a p podcast and he was talking about how the middle class of stand up comedy has been destroyed that now we have to like You know, you have to you have to film your own special. No longer can you rely on like big conglomerates buying your special, giving you money, and then you selling your special. You have to film it. In the hopes that maybe uh Netflix or someone will buy it and like And I find that with stand up. Um This uh It's it's not me being bitter. Just sounds like I am being a bit there. And you're right about like the gatekeepers are gone. the neoliberal market is still existing and you have to Like there was a guy There's a stand up comedian who He started talking about like why he's lost money and he goes Uh normally it's through drugs or alcohol that maybe someone else spent this much money but I bet on myself and unfortunately it did not work out. And you do have to Like I've got two podcasts at the moment. One podcast is with a production company and it's going really well. The other one we have to do it independently. It's on hiatus now. And both of us can't afford to uh can't afford to, you know, invest in that podcast. And I love the other idea that I have for this podcast, but it's just unfortunate that. But You know, the person I'm doing. podcast with is less famous than the person I'm doing the other podcast with. So By virtue of like It doesn't matter. It's like even though I love that podcast, that cannot exist. Well yeah, and that's goes back to what you're talking about early podcasting. It was just if two people could rec or one person could record their voice, they had a podcast. Yeah. Whereas now, as you said advertisers want the videos. So we're filming this now. Hello, everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like I'm f yeah. So like the cost of producing a podcast. Yeah. If you want all the stuff that enables you to make money from it, has skyrocketed. So it sort of becomes more like Formula One. Yeah. In that it's like well, no wonder he was able to spend all his youth carting and then his parents bought him a place in the Ferrari teams 'cause it cost a million quid or whatever and That's what yeah, the podcast it has turned into that and it's unfortunate. Um Uh Yeah, I am I am grateful. that it exists. But like I do feel like pop is gonna turn into that too. Pop music. I'm hoping it won't. Uh, and it's hard because you don't want to be angry at someone for expressing themselves uh creatively. And then going You've got a parent with a blue hyphenated name on Wikipedia. It the the anger shouldn't be pointed at the individual who's choosing to like live a life of art and I think that's beautiful. But it's unfortunate that like That option isn't available. Who is it that had a great bit of stand up about Nepo babies? Saying The same rules don't apply to butchers. Yeah. Like every butcher is like I know that's true. That that's true, but I wonder like with that. Like It's not like Yeah, but it they're making a good point. But also I pushed back on that because like The butcher is probably the best job available to them. Like if your dad is a butcher. you get into the butchery 'cause it's like easy. And it's it's not like Well just 'cause you've always been around butchery. So it kind of makes sense. Do you think that there are pe there are other people who are gone If only I had the opportunity to become a butcher. I would love to be a butcher. I'd love to express myself by cleaving meat. You know what I mean? I'm sure there are. But I mean a complex picture. Absolutely. Uh we're gonna do quick fire four and five. What's number four? Now Gerald. Uh-huh. I'm very I'm very very thankful for it. Because uh Yeah, it wish I'm I am very thankful to have this injection. That made me Like the actual Brain activity. go into losing weight and debating with myself about losing weight and when do I eat and stuff like this, I think I'd be exhausted. But because I have the injections I don't have to think about that. And that is that is why I use those injections. Like I think as well, if I never lost weight on it. Anymore. Think it's still beyond the injections because the times that I don't think of food are uh like I do look back at like There there is a regret I have before. And that is the amount of time I thought about food. Because 'Cause now that I don't. And I see how much time I have. That's incredible. I don't think I don't think that's denouncing myself as being fat. It's very hard to talk about stuff. Where you know. There are There are three things about Being less fat. like I see as an advantage. And it's like being able to move around a lot freer and easier. And I didn't notice that before because I didn't want to move around. Uh uh. Now we do. That's easier. They're not thinking about food. Easier. And people being nicer to me, which is harder. I just feel I feel I feel so defensive with it. Like I haven't Marley changed in the past three years, but I feel like people are treating me like I have. Yeah, yeah. Do you know? Like if In fact I probably was nicer. Well that's the thing, it's like you're being treated as if you used to be an asshole. And now you're being really kind. Yeah. And they're like, gosh, you know you notice that Alison's just really changed and I'm so pleased for it. It's like, no, I was always me. Yeah, she's really turned her life around. Yeah. Uh and what's the last thing on your list? Uh Pointless. T V show pointless. Yeah, you're a big fan of pointless. I love pointless so much. And it's funny 'cause like And do this podcast with Phone and she calls out the rest is entertainment a bit, 'cause 'cause she just expresses her feelings freely. And I like face. I don't know. Uh like I love yeah, I think the concept of it is amazing because it kinda scratches the itch of like not only being rewarded for general knowledge, but a niche. knowledge of general knowledge. Like it's it's it gives that kind of space where So you have Not only am I gonna give you a fact, but I'm gonna dig so deep and give you I'm gonna give you the sugar babe song that isn't like push the button. So you have an innate Osman bias. Pro Osman bias. I do. Yeah. And that's okay. I know, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like it when he sits on the fence, actually. Do you know what I mean? I do. Yeah, absolutely. And also, but like, yeah, it's that kind of and it was a thing that Like uh I would watch it with my fri when I watched it with my friends and it was communal viewing with them. Mm. We we got each other on our le on a level that no one else would. So that's uh yeah, I do love it. And I I love that it's just gentle viewing. And you get The people that you get. I like people who are really into the concept of pointless and have been waiting their whole lives for this. Or people who just wanna be on TV. Yeah, yeah. And they've had a lovely day out and they're got rid of pretty quick because you know. So I'm like, or the worst coupling is the person that's really into pointless and the person that's not into pointless, but they love that person so much that they're willing to go on national TV. With them. and make a tit of themselves in order to make their partner happy. Like I think that's a beautiful love. You know, and it's great because the person They always let them down. the person who's not that good with general knowledge. and a partner who's really into pointless. They like police their face. and go, No, I I still love you. I I I'm I'm really I'm really happy that like uh the only British singer you can think of is Elton John. I'm really happy that you've come with me. For it is. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Alison. We've got Being a Comedian Podcasting The Bands of Simon Fuller. I didn't really get into that that much, did I? I got talking about class, but like I wanna write a horror film. Where I hunt down Simon Fuller. Because he took a lot of money from those working class people. That's not a yeah. You can do that. Yeah. Um He's a powerful man actually. He's probably more powerful than Richard Osman. Maybe I should be I don't know. You could use Osman to get to follow. Do you think so?