Forgiveness and Finding Common Ground

Hello everyone, it's John here, just letting you know that I've written a book. It's called Thirst. Twelve drinks that changed my life, and it's available to pre-order now. In many episodes of How Do You Cope, you'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol. And in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people? Why did it mean some things felt better? And why did it mean so many things went wrong? I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope. Meditation. Physical pain. Gratitude, trauma, and therapy. There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest, First is available to pre-order now. The audiobook, read by me, is available to save or pre-order wherever you get audiobooks from. Hello and welcome to How Do You Cope with Me, John Robbins. This is the show where I sit down with special guests to talk about the challenges they've encountered in their lives and the coping mechanisms that have helped them to find a way through. Today's guest is Esther Jai. In February 2023, Esther endured every parent's worst nightmare when she learned that her 16 year old daughter Brianna brutally attacked and murdered in a local park. She was lured there by two teenagers who stabbed her 28 times. Brianna was a trans teenager, and her murder ignited debate around a very sensitive topic which thrust Esther into the world of online cruelty. and hate speech which felt far removed from her beloved daughter and her own suffering. but it was not her first experience of the danger of the online world. Before she died, Brianna's mental health suffered immensely from the impact of social media. and screen addiction, which Esther now campaigns to protect all children from. Esther is a spokesperson for the Phone Free Education Initiative. and also campaigns for mindfulness practice to be brought into schools. In our interview, she speaks so powerfully about how meditation Mindfulness and gratitude. have helped her to cope. even in the most unthinkable circumstances. She has also shown proof of the impact of her outlook. after reaching out to the mother of one of Brianna's killers, with whom she is now friends. practicing forgiveness to help her counter the suffering. Brianna's death is caused. Esther's book? under a pink sky is a mother's true story of love, loss, and the power of forgiveness. the fight to protect our children's futures in the digital age. It's a truly incredible book. Back edition. It's out now. Before we get started, don't forget that you can now watch every new episode of How Do You Cope on YouTube. just sear for How Do You Coke Pod. You can listen to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And whether you're watching or listening, please hit subscribe so you don't miss any future releases. To get in touch, email hello at howducopepod.com. We're also on Instagram and TikTok. Just search How Do You Coke Pod. Esther is an amazing woman. brings a lot of positivity and light to this discussion. Given the nature of our conversation, there are a number of themes around self-harm. murder, loss and addiction. So please bear that in mind before listening. Hello everyone and welcome to How Do You Cope. And I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Esther Jai. How you doing, Esther? Very well, thank you. Um, I wondered if we could start by Talking about words. Um, over the course of this interview we're going to be talking about the loss of your child who's very Brutally killed. uh how you've coped with that, maybe ways in which you've found it hard to cope. And As insane as it feels to say this, there are people who feel very strongly about how you refer to your child. Uh your child is trans And maybe we could start with With that sort of world of Yeah. difficulty you have in in expressing People would immediately think is uh, you know, everyone's worst nightmare, the absolute worst thing that can happen to someone. And yet you're s you're under a an amount of pressure about the language you use. So I wonder if you could just sort of talk us through that. Um yeah, so as you say, Brianna was trans, and this is something that I don't tend to go into very much, especially in media interviews. One of the reasons is because of how polarized the opinion is on this matter, even though we're talking about people's lives. Um and obviously I'm came I'm campaigning for lots of different things and I don't want that to be clouded by people arguing arguing and being really quite toxic and horrible to each other. Um I think for like For me. Brianna was Brianna. She was it it doesn't really matter. She doesn't need to have a label on on her. Um and I think it was really difficult for me to Um figure out how to talk about Brianna's life in my book because I didn't want to offend people. And um Like there's a thing called dead naming uh where like Some trans people are very offended by speaking about their previous name. Um so I was worried that I was going to offend people, but for me This is Brianna's life, this is her story, and Bianca was little brat. She that that that was my child. Um so I yeah I decided to very sensitively discuss um the whole of Brianna's life and I decided to use both both names in the book. Um I was actually having this conversation recently with my eldest daughter, Alicia. um because I I went away for a silent retreat. I went away for four nights, um, on my own and um did lots of thinking, lots of contemplating, and I actually to myself that I actually had grieved Brianna. But maybe not Brett. But then equally. When your child's growing up. it's kind of like a a chapter, but the it's like at each stage is almost like a chapter and and they become a new person. So even though um I feel like I haven't grieved Brett. I think it's just it' just just a different time in in in his in in Brianna's life. And I also feel like I miss Alicia when she when she was little as well. Like that is also a different chapter. It was a different person. But yeah, it's it it just it's it is it's difficult to e even now when we're speaking, it's difficult to say Brett because it is it's almost like I'm speaking about a different person. Well I know some parents of trans kids who talk about a sort of internal contradiction whereby on the one hand They're doing their utmost to support their child. and celebrate their transition journey, their true identity. But also you know, they're grappling perhaps with a world they have no experience of. And on top of that is You know, some level of grief or loss for the child who is changing as much as you may want to celebrate what your child is becoming. So were you were you aware at that time Um There was something happening for you that you had a right to feel just as much as you were sort of really supporting Brianna in in what she was doing. Um, I think for me I I didn't necessarily feel that, no. Um I was As long as Brianna was happy, I was happy. And Brianna's transition was something that she the same would make would make her feel happier. It was something that was going to um fix the way that she was feeling in her life. Um and Yeah, I was I it it it I didn't feel like I I had that loss then. It's only now when I look back and I cre it's almost like I've lost two children. Um, but at the time I didn't necessarily feel that. So we're gonna talk about how you cope. And I think it's really important for people to understand the many things Brianna was coping with. And what were the challenges she faced? and some of the coping mechanisms she turned to. Um So All of my campaigning stems from Not from what happened to Brianna, but from what happened to Brianna before her death. So the last two years of her life were absolutely filled with suffering. Um from around the age of fourteen, she really struggled with the mental health. She was self harming, she had an eating disorder, she struggled with anxiety. As a result, she was increasingly isolated. her education suffered. She was um excluded from school and Isolated even further. So all of these that I I didn't realise at the time were being exacerbated by what she was accessing online. So she was accessing content that was encouraging her to restrict her eating, was encouraging her to harm herself. Um and Like I I wish that I could have d I could have done more for her. She was hospitalized um at one point because of how much weight that she'd lost. And actually that that felt at the time, it felt like the worst the the worst time in our lives. And I was so worried about Brianna, but while she was in hospital She didn't have any um access to Wi Fi. And she didn't have any data on her phone, so she couldn't access social media, she couldn't access anything online. The only thing that she had was text messages. And um I'd go to visit her and it was almost like I had my child back again. Um, she was like the sweet, bubbly Brianna that I d that I'd always known. And I've got like so many text messages from Brianna when she was in hospital that were just so lovely, like When are you going to come and visit me? I love you. Bring me some French fancies, which I mentioned in the book. Um and that just goes to show how much the online world was impacting Brianna and having that little bit of respite, even though it was it was terrible. It turned out to be such a wonderful time when I got my child back. But um Yeah, I s I suppose that that this is the way that Brianna was coping with the trauma that she was experiencing online. And in in your book you talk about the difficulty in answering a question What was Brianna like? Because in answering that question You lose her again. But I was struck by how honest you were about will have every parent of a teenager will have experienced, which is the person you love most in the world has the most capacity to cause you pain. So Maybe you could talk about that. in in Brianna. Because Her behaviour was very challenging, but she was also very vulnerable and you know, very loving and very gentle. Yeah. Um I think To answer this, I'm just going to like rewind a little bit into Brianna's life. So when Brianna was Bret. Um like she was so loving and um like bubbly and energetic and um absolutely I don't know just just like one of those children that were absolutely full of light. And um even she says she had asthma. And when's when I took her to the doctors, um, I remember leaving and going to the doctor and asking for a hug. And like this is just like how full of love that that like little Brett was. And um like Brianna still had that elements of this. But as she became more isolated and more withdrawn, like her behaviour became became worse and she I suppose. because of how much she was struggling. pushing me away. She was pushing her real life friends away. She was pushing um anybody that wanted to help her away. Um And as a parent, I think difficult to manage because Everything you do is for your child. and all you want to do is to help them, and all you want to do is to make them happy and to help them be happy and to make their life as as positive as possible. But when they're harming themselves and are pushing you away. Um It's it's really, really difficult and I suppose at times and and this is something that I struggled with after after a death was like Maybe if I hadn't of shout it at her this time, maybe if I if it had been a bit more understanding, maybe things would have been different. But I think it's Being a parent is In a way it's the most joyful thing in the world, but also it's so difficult, and we never know if what what what we're doing is is the right thing. Um But yeah, a behaviour was that this is something as well that I actually struggled with when writing the book. How honest to actually be. And at times I felt like I was complaining about Brianna and about Brianna's behavior, but I wanted to be honest because it's very rare that actually as parents we discuss. the the negative side of having a family. But we're all going through this and it's always going to be a struggle having having teenagers. And I asked my my eldest daughter, Alicia. um throughout the book, it was she happy with what I was writing, is this okay? And she said that We shouldn't see like we we shouldn't see the relationship through roast into glasses. We should really like focus on on how it was. um, because th this is how we're going to create change and this is how we're going to help people realise that what they're going through isn't unusual. It's it everything that I've put in the book is just to support other parents and to Yeah, try to help that way, I suppose. So what was your experience of setting boundaries or attempting to set boundaries with Teenager had challenging behavior. And what advice would you give to someone perhaps struggling with their teenager who suddenly has all these freedoms? Is essentially st you know, still a child and and quite vulnerable to how they're engaging with the outside and the adult world. So I think all of the boundaries that that I tried to set were actually like Completely knocked down. Um from a from a young age, I used to all of the issues that we had actually was a was around phone news. It was around what Brianna was accessing online. Or not maybe not what Brianna was accessing, but who she was speaking to. That was my main concern when Brianna was alive. Um And When she was younger, I would be able to like spot check a phone and a phone never went into a bedroom. And they they would leave the phone on the landing, both both of the children. But then when she reached about the age of fourteen, then that's when it started becoming more like her her diary. And it was She was secretive over it. Um and these were the boundaries that I really struggled to put in place. I know now like that. Phones. smartphones social media is really addictive. There's been a court case in the US, um the this we last week. Um that has now proved that social media is addictive. The jury found that social media is addictive. Um think as a parent I thought that Brianna it was Brianna's behavior and she was being So sort of naughty, like it she was she wasn't behaving in school. She was she was rebelling against me and and it was part of being a teenager. It was her behaviour, but actually it was the addictive algorithm that was keeping her online and turning her against the family. Um And I do talk in the book as well about my addictions when when I was younger. And I could see that sh she had the same it was the same as what what I went through, essentially. Um for regard with regards to advice for parents. Yes. It's so difficult. And I think that my advice would be to not give your child a smartphone for as long as you possibly can. if you can give them a brick foam when they're in when they're in primary school and up until the at all this age that you can possibly hold up to. Um And Yeah, but just just make sure that you have these boundaries in place. Check your child, check your child's phone. Don't let the phone in the bedroom. Um but be consistent with it because perhaps I I wasn't consistent and that's where it slipped. Um, but really I think that parents are now fighting a losing battle and it's more for the government to be stepping in and and helping parents and helping schools. Because it it's so hard because with something like say alcohol or drugs. As hard as that may also be to communicate to a teenager. It's bad for you. It could lead you down the wrong road. You could get in trouble. At least you've got the law behind you to say, look, this thing is illegal. for a reason. Here are the reasons and the law's there to protect you. So what I'm saying is here to protect you. the law is actually not on your side. It's on the side of the teenager to basically go, Yeah, you're allowed to ha access anything. Mm-hmm. Anything from You know? Pretty mundane content to Videos of executions. Mm-hmm. And you can have that. So did you did did you really Feed More stuff behind you to take into that discussion. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think that s so the government have launched a consultation into um And to have this on social media from the sixteen. Um and also On phones in schools. Yes. If we do go along that that route the same as Australia, then then like you say, parents can um can say, actually, you know, you're not allowed on social media. This is whereas now Um you've got thirteen year olds that are that are using pester power to get on social media. All of my friends are on social media. So I I would like I want to go on it too. Um I think that also if we raise the age, it's it lets parents know that actually it is harmful. I think as as a parent, I didn't actually realise that social media was harmful as well. Like if you go if you went through my Instagram feed, it would be like cooking videos and decorating videos. It's not the stuff that young people are seeing, which is misogynistic content for for young for young boys. Um content that's promoting um weight loss and like body dysmorphia for for girls. Um So yeah, I I think I think that this is why the government needs to step in because they need to really set a a clear clear message that this isn't suitable for young people. So you you've had your own Um guess mental and physical health journey as a teenager and as a young adult and as a young mum. So I wondered if you could tell us about your experience and how you got Two Mindfulness and a and meditation practice. Oh, Warte was da, um So I'll I'll start from from leaving secondary school. So w when I when I left school, I left school with no G C S E is. Um I didn't focus in school. I used it more as a as a way of socialising. It was I went to school to see my friends. I didn't really focus on education. Um I yeah left school with no G C S and then As a result, I had like well I I really struggled with confidence and struggled with anxiety. And I ended up um Having M having my eldest at eighteen. Got in a relationship at 16, had Alicia at 18, and then h had um Brett at twenty. So I had two young children. Um On the age of twenty. Um I then became really addicted to to drugs, um, for at least a year of my life. And this was a coping mechanism. I was a single parent to two young children and saying that now it just sounds so horrific. Like instead of focusing on the kids and looking after them. I was self medicating, um, with amphetamine and um This is a one result of trauma and um two, yeah, result of low self esteem, anxiety. Um all all the I I didn't know how to how to deal with. Um I kind of slowly got myself out of that and and realised actually I needed to sort myself out for the kids. And um I c I'm so I'm so glad I did because it could have been a completely, completely different story. And I do think that for so many years I could reg I had regretted this. And only now Do I actually I accept it and I think that actually it's made me who I am today. I don't think I would have the compassion and the empathy for other people the same way that I do now because of my experience. Um I then went to univers and I ended up going to university as a mature student in my thirties. So I was I was working a part-time job, I had two kids, um, and yeah, I was date dating worse. And um I went I went back to college to study a health profess uh health um access to health professionals course. To resit my GCSEs, and at that time I was so so stressed. Like I remember my eyelash falling out because I was that that stress. And um and I thought this isn't like I need to do something about this, I need to um to sort myself out, really. So um I must have done a Google search, I can't exactly remember. But I found mindfulness and I downloaded the karma. And I started meditating every day, every morning for ten minutes. And the the results that that I saw were just so amazing. Like I just I felt karma. I was coping so much better with with the lit little the things that would happen during the day. Um I found that I could focus more on my on on the my my coursework. Um And yeah, fr from that moment it was Uh I've uh kind of got gone in and out of it in the same way that you do with any any kind of health routine. You always fall off the wagon a little bit, but then you go back to it. And um but yeah, I I think that really having that. meditation and mindfulness, um, kind of in my back pocket is what saved me when Brianna passed away. So It m it for someone who d isn't on any kind of Meditation journey or h have any kind of mindfulness practice. They might hear you say I meditated for ten minutes a day. And that made My anxiety go down, it made life easier to deal with. What is happening? In that ten minutes. And what is happening for the rest of the day as a result of it, in in your experience? Um, that's a a really, really good question. Thank you for that. Um so for the ten minutes of meditation, like it's just to say as well, I've been doing twenty minutes now, so I'm really, really proud of myself. Um, so for for that ten minutes. you're you're kind of focusing on the breath or you're focusing on you you you're choosing what to focus on. So you can focus on like touch, for example, like you're it's you're um feet on the floor, or your hands together, or your breath. Um, and as you're sitting, you will have so many thoughts going through your mind, but you acknowledge a thought and then it will just kind of go away. I d it's kind of likened to like clouds in the sky. So you you'll watch a cloud go by and that that's your that's your thought. Um it's kind of it's kind of weight training for the brain. So the more thoughts that you have, it's like the heavier the weight, you're not attaching to that thought and you're not getting dr um pulled away by it. And really it helps with with your focus and it helps you I used to overthink so, so much. And I was really negative with myself as well. Like I used to always put myself down. Part of it is because of my my past and my h and my history. Um but now Well, throughout the day. you would have a thought and you'd be able to just acknowledge it and it will go away. So you just wouldn't hook onto that. Um, also you're just so much more aware of of what you're at what what you're thinking, or like if you're at a roundabout and somebody doesn't indicate, like quite often. And just to say like I'm I'm not perfect, I will swear sometimes. But um it y rather than getting annoyed about it, you can just like Well, maybe they were just in a conversation and they forgot to indicate at this one time and they probably do indicate all of the rest of the time. So it's just like really kind of being aware of your thoughts and um I suppose being able to to manage them better as well. And to sort of not become them. Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a fantastic quote I'm gonna read, which is From your book um Under a Pink Sky where As a reader, you You give us an insight into Mindfulness in action. Um, so you're talking about Brianna and potentially you know things you could have done. or things how things could have gone differently. And This is after Uh one of the One of the people Hmm. Killed Brianna tried to poison her. And You say Perhaps she wasn't such a good friend. Perhaps she'd been befriending her with ulterior motives. Perhaps there was a transphobic ingredient to this. If only I had known. Stop. This sort of thinking. is what takes me to a very dark place. Stand up. Feet to the floor. Outside. Breathe deep inhalations of cool air. Look up. I notice the light on the leaves. the arms of a tree stretching out its branches, as if offering me a hug. I stand awhile in nature's embrace and clear my mind. Later I will walk. I will go to bed early and sleep. I will make myself do what I could not make my child do. I will stave off the depressive thoughts with exercise, meditation, and sleep. Some days I will find that is possible. Others it will take every last ounce of energy I have not to succumb. That's an incredible illustration. Of how mindfulness works in a very practical way. It's not someone saying Go for a walk or it's not someone saying Oh think of the trees or whatever. It's someone going, No. This is a daily practice, sometimes a minute by minute practice. that I do to stop myself getting lost in all of this pain. Are you able is the does that become automatic after a a period of meditation to interrupt that hooking into thinking. Um Yes. Um but it's not it's not something that that I'm necessarily aware of. I think it's I've been doing it for so long now that it actu that it is. Um I 'cause it really does change your brain. It rewires your brain. It's um Yeah, yeah, I I would say I would say that that it really does um change the way that you think. And I think also, um with gratitude as well. It helps you to I think in in the pass in the um quote that you just read then it helps you to be aware of things that you're grateful for as well. So in that moment rather than focusing on these horrific thoughts. you can kind of wake up. Um And see. what is actually got in at that at that specific time. And I think that's I missed out really before the mindfulness is all about that. It's a being aware of the present moment, like being alive and truly knowing it. And I think quite often. And n not always because people have got horrific lives and they are in horrific situations, but for the majority of us. If you just stop In this moment. Everything is okay. And um Yeah, it that is it is Mindfulness is the thing that really fills my court. And I would just love everybody to experience the benefits that that it can really bring. So You said earlier that Mindfulness and meditation. you through the the most difficult, painful. Atrocious. Period after you found out. Brianna had been killed. When you are in Hell, basically. And that present moment. isn't a place you necessarily want to be. How did mindfulness play a part in that? Or did it go out of the window for Were y were y I mean, were you able to to meditate? In those early days and weeks. Um, yes, but I think that's because it's so ingrained into my life. Um I'm going to say something now actually that I've only ever spoke to with um spoke about with really close friends. Um And in the actual moment. Day is. Follow in. Him and about Brianna. Um And I don't know that whether I th I think that mindfulness is something that probably impacted the way that I was thinking, but I remember sitting at home. Thinking. I am okay. My family's okay. Brianna has I I didn't know at the time what had happened to Brianna, but I knew that she that she she was dead. She was gone. But I thought that In other areas of the world. There are people in bottom countries. who perhaps have lost their whole family. I'm a fleeing. And they're not safe, they're fearing for their lives. They don't have a roof over their head. They don't have the comforts that we have. They don't have food on the table. And for that, I felt grateful. I felt grateful for what we did have. And I think that no win. And this sounds really bad actually now that I'm saying, but knowing that people that are far worse off than you at this moment. That kind of made me think, actually It was it it made me appreciate what I had then. And although we were going through this horrific thing and Brianna had lost lost her life. at least we didn't we weren't dealing with all of these different things that other people are dealing with in the world. And I suppose that that in a way is gratitude practice. It's This has happened. we're not we're not fearing for our lives, we're not we're not running away, we're not fleeing our country. Um See I supp I suppose that that in a way is c is kind of mindfulness as well. And it doesn't take away. how h how hard it was and how diff but it just stopped me from going. to a very, very, very dark place and to a place where I suppose. Think how to word this. Mm. No one reading your book. Come away without Really Having experienced Those days. that intense ultimate suffering. It's it's clear and You know, it really comes through. In your writing. I wonder if you're saying feels difficult to say. Because it feels slightly cold. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But really what you're Evidence of is that mindfulness and meditation give you some influence over the level of your suffering. Mm-hmm. They don't take it away. It can bring it down from a hundred out of a hundred to ninety eight out of a hundred. Yeah. And The only way you could disagree with what you're saying is if someone is listening to this thinking, Oh, well, I want you to have suffer more. You know, I want I want to it to be as bad as it could possibly be. Whereas when you're in that Awful. Nightmarish situation. you'll take two percent less suffering in that situation. Mm-hmm. Because that might get you through that day. Yeah. And and it is It was horrific. It's so horrific. And people are going through horrific things every single day. The world is A tough place to live. I think there is always something to be grateful for, regardless. You can always find a little chink of light. give you the hope and help you get through whatever you're going through. I I was just reminded as you were speaking there about conversation I had with Matt Ford on this podcast who had cancer and he had very, very traumatic surgery and was in a great deal of pain. And what I learned from speaking to him is that when you have been through the worst kind of suffering. something you become very sensitive to is not increasing your suffering unnecessarily. And doing absolutely whatever is in your power to reduce it. And I wanted to just read a Paragraph from your book. Because you describe what mindfulness is so well. I'm gonna I can read now. Mindfulness is not just about stopping to look at the daisies. It's about what stopping to look at the daisies is doing for you. It helps to train your attention. So you become more aware of what's happening in the present moment. rather than worrying about the past or the future. That awareness helps you to better understand your feelings. When you are able to recognize your feelings. You can develop an understanding about what is making you feel a certain way. When you know yourself better. You can make better lifestyle choices. Think of it as mental upcycling. Each time there is a fearful or negative thought. You learn to notice it. Accept it. Then let it go. In that way we can resist the downward spiral of negative thinking. And this links me right back to the subject of online safety for children. Which is vital. because research has shown that access to harmful content online ignites negative thinking. I think that's so It's so hard to describe what mindfulness is. And I think it's sort of been But slightly unhelp helpful social media. Trend. Because it's not What we might call Positivity. Um comes about through suffering. Mm-hmm. And meditation is a sort of practice suffering in a way. Anyone who's ever tried it knows. But it is a way of going I'm gonna sit with all the things I try to distract myself from every day. Mm-hmm. So are you aware of that? The fact that suffering can give birth to something Which provides an escape from suffering. Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly. Um And yeah, it it I think that meditation, like you say, it's it's about sitting with those uncomforta uncomfortable thoughts. which is bringing the awareness to them. And I think that the what we do is we dash about our daily lives and we self medicate, whether that's like looking through doom scrolling through social media, um, or whether it's having a a glass of wine or like a Oh five, or um, like taking drugs and it's just kind of numbing the brain and never actually dealing with the root cause things. Whereas when you sit with your thoughts you are aware of them. And it's only when you're aware of something that you can make a positive change. In life now. something that I find really difficult actually is campaigning. And the reason for that is because I've got to be aware of so much suffering in the world. I've got to be aware of the horrific things that are going on on social media and needs to be aware of the amount of children that are struggling. And I struggle with that. I need to be aware of that in order to try to make a change for the better. And it's the same in your mind as well. So you think you you you're aware of the thoughts, you're aware of what you're struggling with. And then you can choose you can make a decision w a around how you're going to make things better for you as well. Because of Brianna was. There was kind of world of online Hate. That you had You'd had like a media and social media blackout. Mm-hmm. Uh, you weren't following the news, you were just, you know, sticking to your f close to your family, your friends and and the police and what they were saying to you. And then you decide to research a charity to partner with to raise money in in Brianna's memory. And that online world hits you. And reading I could almost see like a Of having her smartphone and suddenly being open to this adult world. And your experience of coming out of this media blackouts that you that you had. into a whole new environment. that was I guess really foreign to you. People talking about you and your your child and your parenting and Trans issues and all this. Stuff. And I wondered what You Did in that process to cope? when you're you need to use the internet. You need to communicate with people, you need to start campaigns, you need to Reach out to agencies. And yet you're having to deal with this whole thing that's kind of Nothing to do with you in a sense. Mm-hmm. Were you able is there a process you go through when you see a horrible comment or Is there something you do to keep you going? Um I think at at the beginning Um Mike, it was it was my decision to speak. to to the media. See. quite soon after Brianna Steph out actually it was on it was only a few months after Um But initially when Brianna passed away, I remember the police saying to me that we're going to have to This is gonna be in the media, it's going to be a big story. And I remember thinking that I d I don't want that. Like this is per this is our family. It's our family. It's personal to me. It's personal to us. I don't want people speaking about what's happened to our family. It's Yeah, it was r it was really, really scary. And as you said, I I had I had a total blackout. I didn't look at any media. I didn't go on on social media. Um Until Um some of Brianna's friends and some of Alicia's friends started sending some pictures of vigils that were happening so there were vigils that were happen were happening all over the country. And there were some vigils in as far as America and um other countries as well. And I don't know, that w that was so beautiful to say and it was like Like I Brianna always wanted to be famous. She wanted to be TikTok famous. And remember seeing these visuals and thinking that if she could see this, like she would just love it. She she would absolutely love it. And it made me feel like I can that was that was like a positive side of it. And then I actually realised that We can use media for for good. We can We can make a change and because of everything that Brianna had experienced, I thought that I needed to tell her story, I needed to tell my story and try to make things different for um for parents and for young people in the future. Um With regards to comments. I just don't read the comments. Uh and I never I I tend not to read them. Every now and again it this is almost like self harm. You think, Oh, I'll just I'll have a look at the comments. And it's never good. Even if there's like a hundred really, really lovely comments that one horrible comment that you see. It's like someone's just punched you in the stomach, it completely takes the the um the the wind out of you. Um Just thinking as well, like I've I follow some people on social media who talk about like misod misogyny on social media, and a couple of times men have commented on this my choice of shoes. So I always wear trainers, mostly because it's easy to walk around London when you're going from one interview to the next. I got hiking boots on the same reason. They're so comfortable. But yeah, like quite often men will comment on the choice of footwear. So there's never anything constructive, there's any never anything really that you can learn from. So yeah, really just I tot totally do not look at the comments because this But but but equally. That is what concerns me. just as much as the harmful content that's online and the addictive nature nature of social media is the comments that people put on on posts and on the news articles and children shouldn't be seeing this. Children shouldn't be seeing the the transphobic, misogynistic, toxic comments. Um And when you say toxic, there are examples you give in the book, which I won't repeat here, but we're talking absolutely brutal. Yeah. Not just comments, but flooding charity donation pages with pornographic violent imagery. Yeah. I mean this is targeted. Really unpleasant stuff. We're gonna get to sort of how how big a part empathy and forgiveness have played in in your life. Well I wondered because I think something that is so much of a problem across politics across the world. Across all issues. Especially Uh sort of Issues around trans children, transgender people. We no longer seem to engage with people we disagree with. Um And I think that has created a huge lack of empathy. And you talk in the book about how when you are compassionate to someone you find a middle ground. You find common ground with them. through compassion, that you would never get through negativity. And I wondered if you 'Cause my worry is reading your book is like Those trolls or those Transphobic people. people who are very upset with you from from the trans rights movements. probably not going to read this because it might challenge their thinking. I wondered if you'd had much correspondence from People from e extremes of either side of of saying that reading about your experience had changed their point of view. No, no I've not. I think as you say, I I don't think that those people will will read it. And I think that this is the Problem. that we that we are having now. We're all kind of in our own little silos. Um I think something that social media has caused is Polarized views. And everybody is in like their own little echo chamber. And this is where having like this such like divisive politics and Hate and um Yeah, just c a complete lack of tolerance for anybody who different to us. Whereas I think that really if we look Down. We're all the we're all the same, aren't we? Well it's not. We're not that different. Um And yeah, I d I do I do hope that that we can get to a point. in society where we all can Can realise that. Mm. I think it's such a shame because After the trial. where Brianna's killers were sentenced. You asked a great deal of yourself in terms of your capacity to for empathy and your willingness to find common ground. And you formed a relationship with um Parents of Was it one of the the Yeah, the m um Scarlet's mum. So could you maybe talk us through How you went from being in the court and hearing Absolutely. I mean the worst thing. Their child and And what laid led you on a journey to connecting with with Scarlet's mom? So eve even think looking or thinking back now to to the trial like it was all so surreal and I think that In a way I was kind of listening to everything that happened. Almost as though it wasn't my child that it had happened to, I feel like I was quite detached from it. And I think that that was a way of coping through the trial. I remember seeing parents of the other children. Um No nobody most the majority of us would never set out to create children that would do something like this. And I think also as a parent you couldn't never believe that your child would be capable of this as well. And when I was looking down from from the gallery at the parents, I could see Their grief as well. And I suppose actually just thinking about what we just said then about um Like similarities. I suppose that I could see myself in them. We were all grieving children. they were grieving that that their children are not going to come out of prison until they're the adults if they do ever come out They've lost their children as well. Um And yeah, just just see just seeing the her Um It I think it's it's just such a tragic situation for everybody. And um yes, it's soon after we managed to um of actually me me and um Scarlett's mum. And She's just a nor a normal woman, a normal woman that was that's tried tried her best and We' we' we' I'm I'm really, really pleased that we're friends now and um I'm glad that I met her because I just wanted to I wanted to know more about her and I wanted to see what she was like as a person and I wanted to have have We've never really gone into depth about what has happened. She's just another mum. And really for me. Could have made up. lots of stories, like as I said before, about me overthinking when I was younger. about the parents and about How horrid they were and Um And that they're they're now like getting on with their lives and all of this kind of stuff that with actually like really Burn you up inside. Instead I decided to reach out and That's it settled something inside of me. And I hope that it's done the same for her as well, really. And um Yeah, it's I'm I'm glad I'm I'm glad that I did it and I'm glad that we're friends. It's an extraordinary example of Um I guess I guess compassion. And I wonder if in that moment in the court going in and in, you know, day after day of hearing that stuff. As someone who was going through so much suffering. You found a capacity to Seek out the one person in that court going through A huge amount of suffering as well. And Bye. Reaching out to them. if if it's that mindfulness practice coming in again, you found a way. Just to lessen your suffering ever so slightly. By Creating a new area of your life that there was going to be hate and negativity in, but actually creating a bit of space for Some kind of healing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I've never thought of it like that actually. I think I think that again it's Like when you said before, um Do you think it's kind of automatic? I think it is, and I think that having that mindfulness practice, it's impacted so many areas of my life. And he like I didn't realise that ever until you've just said it and Yeah, I th I think that that that is what it is and it's all about lessen in suffering, I suppose it's it's we're all going to suffer. And and also that We can't control the external factors, but we can control how we feel about those. External factors. And the thing that how we feel inside, that's really what causes our suffering, not the external factor in the in the first place. Um So yeah. Yeah. Tell us about mindfulness in schools and the work you're doing. So I guess give Teachers and students. tools which perhaps will prevent these sorts of things. Buddhist or mindfulness sort of concept. The stuff, it's our reaction to the stuff. So are you trying to increase the toolkit for people for how they react to things. Yes. Yeah. And and I think that young people now are struggling. We know that there's um five hundred, over five hundred referrals a day for anxiety um to mental health services in England. And Like when I hear these statistics I don't think we need to pump more money into these mental health services. We need to understand like why is this happening. And I do think that again social social media and the way that we're living in this is in this modern world is is affecting young people. Um So what can we do to give them the tools that they need to co And um yeah, this is why I decided that we need we need we need more mindfulness in the world. We need people to build resilience. We need people to to be able to cope with anything that life throws throws at them. And the best people to teach us is is our young people, is children. Um, so I work with the Mindfulness in Schools project, and we're currently in in our in my hometown of Warrington. Um, we've got most of the schools in Warrington um on board now. And we're going to do some research to see how how can we best do this on on a mass scale and and w we should have something to to provide to the government to try to get this across the UK. Um But we also do um flourishing families. So I'm so I'm sorry if I'm jumping the gun now I don't really go and ask about this. Um so as part of the Brianna Gi Legacy project, we where our team goes into schools and and deliver flourishing families. And I suppose that All of these all of the things that we offer through Brianna Gi Legacy project, it's because of my experience as a parent with Brianna and seeing her suffering. but also because of my experience through my life and knowing what helped me. um as a young person and as a parent. So flourishing families is a holistic approach to well being. It's um a workshop where class in primary school will come into the hall. And the parents will join them. And most of the parents turn up. We have such a great uptake of parents and it's a carousel of activities. So we cover six areas. It's nutrition, exercise, gratitude, nature, sleep and community, which all all of those would help me. And I think that's probably like the six pillars of of health or something like that. Um Um Yeah, it's the feedback that we get from parents is just so amazing. I don't personal personally deliver these sessions. It's Alicia, my daughter, and um Becca, my my other colleague. And um I went to to watch a session the other day and I was at the front watching the little presentation that you do at the beginning and I was looking at all the little children's faces. Like it was just so excited to go off with the parents and to do all of these activities. And like I just I just well up, like I get so emotional with it. And I think that One reason is oh sorry. One reason is because I can see the joy that it's bringing. And that's Priyanna's legacy. But this is what Brianna has given to them. It's not me, it's Brianna. And The other one, the other thing is because I know how much I struggled as a young parent when my children were little. And I know how kind of detached we are now in this modern world. We're just constantly busy. We're We're either working or we're looking at our phones or and to have that ninety minutes. parents and children are just completely mindful together. and learning how to better better their health and better their life. I think it's just yeah, it it's just it's so beautiful. It's just the most beautiful thing to say. And to know that Brianna has Has done this. It just makes me so proud. Well I mean when you're talking in the book about the The work you do for charity. The enormous amount you're putting back. Brianna's legacy. But that's only possible through you the through how you have reacted to such appalling Tragedy. And It's so it's like a huge endorsement of the very thing you're trying to Spread around schools. Is that By reacting to Horror. In a mindful way. You know, not all the time, not a hundred percent of the time. But you enable good to flourish. It would be Very easy. for this to have just completely consumed you. Mm-hmm. And for it to have Multiplied negativity. Uh so it's a hugely inspiring Read it's a very, very difficult read. As As you would expect. Um But I don't think anyone could come away from reading under a pink sky with anything but you know, admiration for you. And also Huge love and respect for Brianna. Um so thank you. Esther so much for joining us here. And um Speaking so powerfully about the real world application of Mindfulness in the most testing circumstances. And I do hope you will uh stick around and join us for the Gratitude list. There you go. An incredible conversation with Esther J. Esther's book is, as you would expect, extremely harrowing. but it is also the most powerful endorsement of mindfulness I've ever read. It's an uneasy thing to express the power of meditation. in helping one cope with the most extreme suffering. And I'm grateful to Esther for communicating just what mindfulness is, what it is not. And how it has helped us so much. It's also a chilling exploration of what we're up against with regards children's access to the online world.