Healthy Masculinity and Emotional Control

Hello everyone. It's John here, just letting you know that I have written a book It's called Thirst, twelve drinks that Change My life. and it's out now. In many episodes of How Do you Cope You'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol, and in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people Why did it mean some things felt better? and why did it mean so many things went wrong I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope? Meditation, physical pain, gratitude, trauma, and therapy There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest Thirst is out now, and the audiob book, read by me, is available wherever you get audiobooks from Hello and welcome to How Do you Cope with me, John Robbins. This is the show where I sit down with special guests to talk about the difficult periods in their lives and the coping mechanisms that have helped them along the way Today's guest is the presenter, writer and ex Marine Jason Fox. Jason joined the Marines aggeed sixteen and spent twenty years in the military as a demolitions and counter terrorism expert. and as part of the spepecial boat service, the Navy's answer to the SAS He led numerous dangerous operations, including hostage rescue and counter inssurgency completed a total of five tours of Afghanistan In twenty twelve, he was discharged from the Army with PTSD, depression, and burnout. and has since spoken a lot about mental health and its effects on service people He's written about his experiences, In the books Battle scars, Life Under Fire And twenty twenty fiveives embrace the chaos, fifty two tactics to make everyday count We spoke about the unusual pressures active service places on the mind and body and how hard it can be to transition back into everyday life Jason also spoke about how he's found relationships difficult and how he learned to better manage his mental health following a period of therapy We also talked about masculinity, both positive and negative the importance of paying attention to emotions before choosing how to react Jason is one of the hosts of Channel four's SAS Wh dares wins. Before we get started, don't forget that you can now watch every new episode of How Do you Cope on YouTube Just search for how do you Cope pod And you can of course, listen to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts and whether you're watching or listening Please hit subscribe so you don't miss any future releases For more information or to get in touch, head to howdycokepod. com But for now. Here's Jason Fox I do hope you enjoy a conversation Hi Jason. thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for having me in. You all right? I am. Yeah. It's a Monday. Am I allowed to say that? Yeah right. You're allowed to say it's a Monday. Some people get funny about when k anyway. No, it' we're very open here with what day the week is and all that kind of stuff. It is a Monday. I mean I have to be honest, I made a Real logistical Fuck up Google calendar wise So I've set a record for the Amersam to Farringdon Race I'm actually to get here in fifty two minutes. which is not it's not physically possible but somehow I managed it speed cameras on the roo There's a great deal to talk about in your story. and I'd like to focus mainly on PTSD and men because you have quite a lot of experience of those two things And o yeah Then over it yeah, actually that's a good way of putting it. Because I think it's important to say you don't need to be a soldier to have PTSD. No You know it doesn't matter whether you're being attacked by an enemy force or a parent or whether you're crashing a tank or a car body has a way of remembering these things and trying to cope with these things, but It is down to the military that we know so much about PTSD from studies done over the last a hundred years So I wondered if we could start with what your understanding of PTSD was when you joined the military and whether that was a word that came up in your training or amongst You and your pals When I So I joined the military in the early nineties, I was sixteen years old and PTSD mental health and possible psychological impact of war combat I'm like scraping the barrel of my My memory So I don't think I'm wrong, but it was never mentioned It was one thing that was Never They didn't open that box, I don't think. And I think I kind of get it becausecause since I mean, I'm skipping forward now since. leaving for the reasons I left PTSD burnout oppression. I've always been like we need to be more proactive about You know the whole subject, which means we need to address it or speak about it early on I do get why they don't to a certain degree because They're trying to encourage young join up and do a difficult job. and they're worried about what impact that would have on you know, talking about they're worried about what talking about it would have on those people what their motivation would be to continue if they started to waver just because they're talking about a negative byproduct of going to do those things So no, that was a very, very long winded way of saying it wasn't spoken about No, I think it's really interesting because I was reading about it last night, sort of the first awareness that peopleople in combat had some kind of adverse physical or emotional reaction was I think around the American Civil War And they called it irritable heart syndrome where they couldn't understand why these men who had not had any physical injuries arrive back at sort of camp with a resting heart rate of like two hundred beats a minute And they said, Well, there's nothing wrong with you And this guy, whose name escapes me, started to collect data on these people And then in the First World War, you had shell shock and then which we might talk about Body keeps the score begins with a study of Vietnam vets. He what really, really struggling after coming back. So It's weird that you have all these examples where People have studied soldiers And it's not really seemed to have been absorbed into the world of the military Does that strike you as strange It does sort of strike me as strange, but then again, I default back to what I've before and it's like, I think early on, not now, they're in a different place now, but When I joined up, over thirty years ago um, becausecause it wasn't as understood Maybe because they want they weren't as willing to understand it because it's seen as a negative. then they weren't willing to That's it by rolling out something in the curriculum of young recruits to see what was going on. I think it's hard to have its It natural organic journey. I think Sometimes you can't force issues and this was people that have suffered because of it, that's Unfortunate, I think. Was I one of them Looking at my records, yeah, you'd say that, but I think there was more to my my PTSD then just the fact that I'd gone being subjected to some pretty stressful situations. But yeah, I do find it. I think We've been slow on the uptake, the military, in general, across the world, maybe. is I guess in a sense Maybe the focus on it needs to come after service. like afterca because traraining for military, I guess part of it is a form of I don't necessarily mean this a critical way, but it's a form of brawashing because you're trying to get people to conditioning good conditioning. Well, you're trying to get people to ignore very basic human responses and instincts because if you hesitate. Hartner might be killed. if you go to pieces or recoil in horror Y putting everyone at risk you're essentially going through a process to go You're going to not react like human beings are designed to react to stuff. And that is going to take a toll So they so what to say For the first ten years of my career, I didn't see any combat. So not not through one of trying to avoid it, not because I was trying to See it, it was just, that's the way the cookie crumbled What was going on in that ten years subconsciously without me realizing it was I was being conditioned to deal with traumatic experiences, events because you're playing at it, you're doing this. and all while that's happening in the back your mind you're going at some point this, I might see this, be privy to this, be a part of this And over a period of time, it's like, okay, you do you do become numb Not numb to it. that's not the right that's not the right thing to say. But you do become conditioned, brainwashed, whatever you want to know around it as, but then when it happens and I remember the first, you know, when I was going away and being Privy to all this stuff you see some Absolutely. I suppose horrific things And it doesn't really, it doesn't M You're like all right that's that's that's that there and that's that. and you you sort of have a reasonably non emotional reaction to it all. What I will say is I was very highly trained and I had an awful lot of money pumped into my training And I think I was very highly motivated. as were a lot of the people around me. So I think that brand that I had been given of PTSD and the people like me and the job that I did given as well, I think is slightly I would suggest it's slightly misleading. I think it's more complex than just like You mentioned crashing cars earlier No one in the no one on the planet by maybe race car drivers taught how to crash a car and how to potentially deal with the after effffects. So when someone is in a car crash, whether it's low level or horrific There's obviously going to be a level of postal mate stress that follows that I think we've guys in the highly trended spepecial forces guys, using me as an example I think there's something more complex that happens over a longer period of time And I think there's lots of things that come into play around your mental health, things that you should probably have a have a lid on, not a lid on, but something things that you should consider. before you go away and indulge in not indulge go away and Get involved in the job that you're trained to do, if that makes sense. I can elaborate if you want. Yeah do So I decided to join the Special Forces I've gone and done the selection process. I've got in and I know now, you know that I'm going to be going away. It just so happens at the same time as all that was happening nine eleven, you know, all that going on around the world and the fallout was it affected the whole world and it affected many Hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people Definitely. So I'm ready to do that and I'm going away and I'm doing that The thing that's not taken into account is yourour work tempo when you go away on operational tours. So anything from you go away for a long time, but anything from six all the way up to nine months being away from home pretty much Every other night or twice a week, you're going to be going and doing something that involves fighting with the enemy. And it is it's it's M you know It has an impact on your your your internal system.'s there's adrenaline, there's cortisol, all these sort of things, all these sort of things Whilst that was going on for me My my home life everything that was going on back home normal like what we would consider normal life. wasn't particularly good because I didn't pay an awful lot of attention because I was more focused on my Korea in the military and I thought that that's what I needed to focus on. come back from those stressful environments where t twoo o'clock in the morning, I'm having a gunfight with the enemy, so my adrenaline levels and my cortisol levels and my sleep padans are completely shot to bits and out of the window So that's having an impact on me. I come away from that I reppei a time. You know, so I'm exhaust and I come home to something that that isn't base to come back to because I didn't pay it the right amount of attention We weren't getting on, you know, me and my partner at the time. We had a daughter That's stressful in itself. We didn't have much money. The car breaks down. We've had an argument while I've been away. All this sort of stuff And I think All that combined has had a massive impact on me potentially everyone else but not potentially definitely everyone else involved And so what I'm trying to say is PTSD is it is correct. thing to bring in into the sort of arena to talk about when it comes to the things that we deal with as soldiers, using me as the example. but there's more to it than that. There should be I believe part of wherever you are, not just a recruit, but as a soldier in the military, there should be life coaching on How it how to you know, balance a career that is quite all consuming, but also Everything else that goes with getting older, where you meet people, you marry, your relationships become bigger moreore substantial, you get have children, all this sort thing because there's a lot to be said for that in you deal with stuff that goes on when you're doing that job So Are you saying that contrast between ive service and family or civilian life The time was so extreme that you struggled to sort of flourish or return to normality and actually in that contrast opportunity to heal percent I've got so a lot of people say to me and say, oh yeah, of course you've got PTSD because of that job that you did for X amount of years and you went away during that period of time. it was really busy. It was in the news and all this. and I'm like, yeah, I kind of I get that it was a catalyst and I get that it had an impact. one hundred percent it had an impact. Buts there's more to it. there's definitely more to it than that. and I've got And when people say, of course, you know, it's almost like I feel bad because they're saying as you get out of free jail crowd, Of course, you've got PTSD or you know, you've struggled with your mentalalth because of that I'm my b, I've got mes who haven't,'ve done the same job as me but they've been more of a rounded individual to pay due care and attention to their family as well So when they do come home They're coming home to a solid base. they're coming home to a happy place. whereereas I wasn't. so the ability to sort of decompress from O thing wasn't happening because I was going into another stressful situation that was just compounding what had already happened, you know, those c as all levels in the addrenan was being added to because I've come home to something that isn't what people wouldn't say is stable, I suppose. So if let's say you were a A therapist. and you and your partner at the time coming to see you saying when I get back from service, when he gets back from service We're really struggling What would you know? with your hindsight and your experience say to them as a couple Yeah I'm not a therapist. No a long shot. It would be like the The thing that made me sort of not laugh because I suppose I did laugh was I'm taught to be an unbelievable, very good soldier And one of the things that makes soldiers very good is their ability to communicate in lots of different ways. with the hierarchy, with people around you, you can communicate via, you know, voice noise, you can do it handand signals, d touch or this we' brilliant. We all talk about acknowledging and all this sort of stuff Come on. and I didn't communicate one I didn't communicate once didn't share how I was feeling, there wasn't a safe space to do that As in we hadn't created the safe space to do that. because do it. Maybe we were young, younger I don't know there's no excuse, but The first thing I'd say is to create a safe space to communicate both ways about What it's been like, how are you feeling What have you found hard? What was difficult about being away? and you don't need to. The thing is I misunderstood it because You do the job that I did and you're like, you can't talk about it. And I'm like, okay I won't talk about it. I'll come away. I'll come home and I'll be like grumpy, miserable. I'll be agitated You know, I have that irritable heart syndrome, you know, you wake up at two o'clock in the morning and bodies expecting something crazy to happen and then it doesn't know what to do because it isn't happening And if only I'd have communicated that, I didn't have to give away locations and secrets and all the other things I was getting on with, but I took it literally and didn't communicate and vice versa because I probably didn't create a safe space for that. So it's about having like a sort of decompression conversation for both of you where that conversation doesn't turn into another sort of battle for territory. Yeahactly. And not everything that said is seen as a criticism of the other person I think that wass Yeah, exactly that. I mean, I've I'm my third marriage now. and kind of open I've got it got it weighed off, but The communication that is done now with me and my wife is I mean, it's a completely different. story alog togetherher. when I look back on it, I look back on it on Ran I massively fuck that one up. And was that? could you give us an example just of something you know, just a situation that you've dealt with now that you perhaps in the past would not have been able to deal with? U There's more to do, I think The thing that sticks out in my mind now is patience I'm I'm probably more patient just because I'm older Hmm, and If For instance thingsings now. Mrs has had a tough day at home looking after the little one Um, I come home and We just sit down and discuss what the day looks like without there being that exactly that. There's no sort of light is not I've had a worse day than you. It's just like, what's your day being like? it's like? And I'm like, Well, okay And she would say, what was your day like? And I'm kind of like, well, you know, I found it stressful, but in comparison. But then on the flip side, she's like, no, I couldn't have done that. So there's a bit of understanding. we sort of don't really, it's not like we're forcing an issue to try and come up with solutions for each other. That's the other thing that I think people find You know, we're just there sharing. and then in so doing, we're like So you can sort of hold space for someone else's experience without there having to be a winner L no one has to have had the worst day or be owed something necessarily. No. Each day is relative in it to individual Whereas before in the past, it was like, don't talk to me about your od day I've been getting shot at. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't even say that because I never really shared that either. It was just like just wouldn't communicate, you know, You just feel resentment and then there's resentment and then, you know I'll go away for a long period of time Taught asille dealing with that because I'm away, come home, there the resentment there because we don't communicate. there is no communication, you know. and then the relationship starts to to crumble before your very eyes and you don't really understand why And it's the other person's fault And have you been able to Has there been any reconciliation or improvement with your former partners this sort of new approach Yeah, maybe I mean, you know person I'm thinking of, you know, we we get on fine. Right. You know, we've had we've had discussions about what it was like in the old days kind of laugh about it that's really that must be quite That must give you. That must feel good Yeah got to the place. Yeah, yeah, very good, yeah. Yeah. it's You know We have a bit of banner with it if anything So let's talk about when you decided your time was up. in the military Yeah Yeah You've spoken a lot about the situation So for anyone who hasn't read your books or read interviews with you You said that you were in a ditch. at taking enemy fire, am I right? And a sudden feeling came to you that you just wanted to be a kid sat on the sofa watching TV with your mum. And it's It's really moving It really struck me when I I first read that because it's such a gentle image in such a traumatic situation and It's almost your brain is doing something quite incredible because you're like to put it into, I guess therapy language. Both your inner child and your loving parent are activated You're saying, I want to be safe and I want to make myself safe So I wondered if Since then you've had some therapy. and been through dark times. What your perspective is on that moment now That moment So that was the beginning of a difficult period away during Um I don't know why it happened then, I think I was a bit longer in the tooth. I was not as young as I was on previous. employments So you start to become aware of your agility, mortality. whatever and The situation was pretty horrendous to be honest. It was it was scary We had a you know, within, you know, twenty seconds before that moment where I this feeling of wanting to be at home with my mum someone had been killed so I'm my mind's racing The enormity of that evening was weighing heavy on everyone's minds, I think and it wasn't It wasn't that moment that was the tipping point because I still had't a load more months of doing that anyway But I can remember coming back on that that deployment Feeling exhausted. u feeling drained I think most of us that came back from that looked we looked gaunt No a lot of the times you get, you know, you You do get to you don't there's no drinking. You eat reason you don't eat well as in like the food' not it's not like Michelin star stuff, but you eat ine And you do get an opportunity to train in that. So you normally come back but that one I was a different kettle of fish And Ihing The whole six months or period of time that we were away was the straw that broke the camel's back. But when I got asked to think about thinkink about that. period is that's the moment that sticks in my mind more than anything. The rest of that There are other things that happened within that pear it away But that's the one that really sticks in my mind, maybe because it was the beginning of that period I don't know And also obviously because on'm thinking It might the emotion of fear manifested itself in a way that had never happened before You know, I'd never wanted to be. at home with my mum watching TV. H as as a default safe setting I was normally pretty good at getting amongst it and, you know dealing with the dealing with the stress of combat, but that was one moment where for a few seconds I was like, what's going on here It's also quite a in a sense, quite a calm thought It's I don't know whether it appeared to you in a calm way or in a desperate way, but there is something like I want a bit of security and I want some I want to be soothed . I just wanted somewhere safe because it was scary. Yeah. I remember thinking I remember thinking I don't want to get out of the ditch and then You sort of look die in the ditch and there's other people there that you're with, and you're like, Ohh yeah, I've got a job to do here. And you sort of give yourself the proverbial slap aroundound the face Um But don' remind yourself of who you are I guess that's what I mean by the military is training you to not go to a place that becausecause if I'm in a ditch getting shot at as me and I say this is scary. I want to go home Everyone would be like, one hundred percent, yeah But if you go to your commanding officer and say This is scary, I want to go home They're going to go, yeah, that's the job. What are you talking about? Yeah, so I mean I wasn't going to get on the radio and be like, excuse me, I've just had this absolutely fucking premonition and I've decided I want to be at home with my mum. Yeah and they'll be like, fuck off just you know And I wouldd be the same, you know, that thought process, that Manifestation of an emotion is not going to help me get out of that situation. I chose to do that job. so I've got to suck it up to a certain degree I can unpack it later on We unpacked that night I mean, I didn't go in and say I mean, I didn't talk about how that exact feeling until I was in therapy. No one knew about that The other lads didn't know that until I wrote it in a book But they knew that everyone was scared, everyone was having a moment Pain I'd like to find someone that wasn't fearful You know, St willing to do the job, but there was a lot of fear going around. It was noisy and loud and scary and You know, the were against the wall to a certain degree. So Yeah, it was It wasn't unpacked there and then because you can't unpack it there and then it' not it's not a safe place to unpack it. got a Youve got to have a serious word of yourself to get on with the job at hand Owise you're not going to get out of there. You're not going to see your mum again to be able to say, all There was this one time when I wanted to Be a ten year old boy again And you have me not really? You hate being a ten year old boy So I reread bits of Body keeps a score which I found really helpful in my life, you know, and I'm nowhere near any situations that stressful. And at one point, he says traumatized people tend to superimpose their trauma onto everything around them And I don't think he means consciously. What he's saying is that beces superimposed onto life you see threat where there isn't threat. you can react to things as if they are dangerous or threatening when they're not And I wondered how when you left the military, returning to a more continuous normal life of family and I guess, looking for a job and making ends meet Were you aware that that body and that nervous system that you had trained to wake up at two in the morning and to go without sleep and to have high levels of adrenaline was struggling to sort of find the I guess like the EQ when you're going to the shops. Yeah I must be absolutely mad to go to the shops. first time after you get back So I've I've had a I rememember comoming back from that deplloy I, I think I wrote about it And I remember walking down I lived in Ple at the time down in Dorset and I remember walking down I'd literally way I remember it is weird done a done an operation blown up. No one got injured actually. It was just a loud bang and there was a few people on the floor and we were like, yeah fififteen hours after that happening, I'm back home because fififteen hours. Yeah, we got back from that evening Morning early. off we go, fly back, I'm back home Um and I'm walking down the high stre I remember it raining. I always remember things to be a little bit gloomy at that period of time Maybe that I hadd sign to do my mental health, but Remember walking down Pool highigh stream being this is surreal what I, you know, Horse sk on. It was almost like I feel like it was an out of body experience where I was looking down at hisself g Fuck you doing it a bit crazy. I don't know What that meant I remember that happening because it was maybe surreal to be so quickly after something like that happening being back home. in a normal environment And then going on from that bit that made me sort of chuckle while you're explaining or talking about what you're explaining was E even though I was conscious of it. It was difficult to stop. and me and and mates we've laughed about it in the past where You're in a normal situation and you know, everything's calm, you should be P. And you always there's like this imaginary red button that you're waiting to press because you feel like you need to press it because shit needs to happen that needs to be So create an argument, you Do something stupid, you'll do something that will you know get a negative response and I don't know whether that was something to do with the whole suuper imposing. U what you're used to on to what you're not used to, maybe Well, I guess your body is used to those emergencies fightes Yeah and They suddenly disappear within fifteen hours I wonder if that's like what I was saying about the military bit of work afterwards Because for me, the idea that you would go from that situation to walking down the street in Dorset in fifteen hours, without like two days or a week at some kind of decompression zone where someone says to you Hey, when you get back, you might feel ABCD Here's some things to do when you do and they're all totally normal So does happen. Right And it did happen. Okay. and I presume it's still and I hope it does and it will do That's a fact We were just We were operating in a period where it was still seen as a bit of Do we need to do that? And because of our autonomy and position that we are in the military. we were asked, you want to so conventional military, they'd finish a tour, a deployment And then they would fly back through Cyprus and they would do a decompression They do comedy gigs at those. There we go So they do a comedy gig game They have a barbecue get a few beers, probably have a few fights That will dec comppression done apparently Yeah. We never we were asked, I remember once and it was the wrong thing to have happened. We should never have been asked. Do you want to do decompression? You can imagine what the lads are like. Fuck off, I want to go home. Yeah So that was that period was taken out of taken out, it was gone because we Who are we to say that we know what's best for us? And that's why, you know, I was finding myself in that situation and in hindsight It was a it was the wrong it was the wrong thing to do to give us that decision, I think Well, from the comedians I know who've done those gigs, you made the right call because It's the idea. that you transition from War to domestic life by getting shit faced for a week and having a fight. I know He's mad. I know. But you know, I think it's developed from then. I'd like to think it so But I mean, I'm be interested to know, did they get a nice reception the comedians. I done a gig at a military base in the UK. and So it was two gigs in one night The first gig was for people who hadn't seen active service yet. R. The second gig was for people who'd just come back from Afghanistan. was unreal So the first one If you if you said Wight everyone on the gig starting. They would all immediately. they sit down The first one. the first one. Yeah, yeah. yeah. Eyes forward Even as the comedian Do you say things and they respond The second one, I've never ever in my life seen anything like it. Why It was It was Animalistic I'm talking like half of them were naked by the time the second act went on. Where was this? It was in Somerset for Commando. It might have been I could look up, is there one near Bridgewater? Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Yeah ye yeah So I used to be based there. Did you? Yeah yeah. We had to be escorted out after the second one I remember when was that? That would have been about tenen eleven years ago. I remember I'll never forget the comedian who was headlining those shows a guy called Craig Campbell Big outdoorsy guy long beard, long hair. He comes on stage in the second show And by then it's just pandemonium. Like people are just like pulling their ass cheeks apart, like on each other's shoulders And some Someone someone immediately shouts out, getet a fucking haircut and he stood there like an oak tree. Yeah. And he said, belieelve you me If you and I were left in a room with just a pair of scissors Me getting a haircut would be the last thing on a very, very long list. And I was like, fucking hell Gs But it was the perfect thing for him to say. But it was horrifying because you were sort of seeing before and after And I'm not entirely sure that heading back from that period of decompression into, say, a family life or going back to your parents You're kind of like, well, I've got I guess theory is that's all out of my system now But actually it's taught you that the way to cope is to drink and fight. Yeah, I think that was a It's annoy you' waitited I mean, if you look at the interesteresting, if you look at the Falkland's war It's a long time ago Most of those people ones it all said and done and there Horrificness had finished. They all get on a ship for two weeks and sail back to the UK and get drunk and have a fight Some would say that that worked for them. Others would probably disagree Um there's a there's an urban myth actually that There was a what they would call a welfare flight so the war is finished, the conflict's over and there's a load of people that need to come back sooner than this two week. Voyage they get on a plane and they bounce through ascension. I don't know how many people is it was a transport plane of people that were coming back Iverf births, bereavements or career courses, career courses in the military always take preference. If you're going go on a course that helps you promote, you should pretty much go on it. And there's this urban myth that A something mean like ninety percent of the people that are on that plane ended up taking their own lives, struggling with serious mental health issues and all that sort of thing whether that was down to the fact that they didn't have that two weeks of pissing up and fine with each other, I don't know, but it's an interest in urban myth gu you know, spoken about regularly within the military I don't know, but well, how did how did you cope then once your You're out of the military, you're back to normal life. Things are obviously very surreal somethingomething must have led you to I guess take responsibility for finding a solution to how you are feeling So I came back, I was getting I mean, the job's busy anyway. if you're not going away in combat operations abroad, you're still doing you never own. You know, We used to talk about time in your own bed and that was minimal Anyway, all that and it's an exciting job. I loved my job. It was exciting We got to the point where we were the way the way that It had all come about, we were getting ready to go again for another operational deployment. and I was just I wasn't motivated. I just felt like o what again? And that was what didn't sit right with me. I was like I' normally loving this job you know, of course position of leadership, I should be like a ball a fire and it's not happening then And I remember getting a A forty five minute presentation Be way before when I was on a career course on a command course And it was about what what they called then I presume it's still called trim, which was a it was a a means of trying to assess someone's mental health, So trauma risk in management They needed the letters to make up a word. So they called it trim And u It was a it was a forty five minute presentation. fromrom the welfare officer on camp on the base talking about what you should look for in your in your men And when we were actually doing and the presentation is not going to help me pass that course. It's just as far as we're concerned as the students in the room 's a stock in filler and ye, okay, sharp, we need to get on with the stuff that I'm going to be assessed on Anway we're at the back of me and a couple of lads at the back of the class and guys are we actually look for this in the guys and we like I'm ticking a few of these boxes, laughing about it presentation finishes, you guys like, o, if you do find this in any let them know that there's a department in the medical center that they can come and see and there's a number and all this and we're like ye, whatever Off we go and then the next thing, you know, when I'm sat there trying to muster my military moojo, which seems to paid somewhere A There is that department Now I then was like, well, I've got an obligation, I've got a responsibility to go to these people because I need to be motivated again for not just me but for everyone else. goingo and see I went in and saw this department, the community mental health department and Thatside it You don't really know I've got this job coming up, I'm feeling a little bit motivated, Can you just tell me what I need to wear so I can go back out and get the job done And they were like, ye, or the person in there was like, yeah of course yeah just sit down. And I thought it was going to be an informal sort of process and it didn't work out like that. because obviously there was more to unpack than than I thought there would be. and actually when I was going through that process. so The nextet deployment that was looming in the distance felt like a dark cloud. That's the way I remember it No was my Godd, why does it feel like a dark cloud? I don't want that to happen. I've always been keen and then individuals like, look, you are struggling. you're suffering for lots of different reasons We need to take that away and we need to, you know, focus on you. So I got pulled out of the operational system, so to speak put into a medical one to try and help me. but The issue I had was I didn't believe I had a problem to deal with, I just thought that there was a quick and easy fix which was someone telling me something so I could Get my motivation back and go back and do the job that I absolutely loved So what tools have you been given or developed to help you I guess move on from that place or to deal with everyday life or to deal with memories, and the stuff you use consciously Aceptance is the first, the first thing. My stuff's pretty simple to be fair, being a simple person, it's all about you know, acceptance and present understanding that United What's happened has happened,, I'm not changing any of it No matter how much I can sit there and wish I could and Do I wish that I could? probablyrobably not actually. it's just part of who I am. And then also understanding that I shouldn't be afraid of the future because of the past. And so How do I How do I do with that? it's about being present being more in the now living now, you know, I always say to live life like a toddler is probably a good way to Good way to be minus shoiting your pants a But so acceptance it can be really transformative, but what do what do you mean by that? How does that Yeah How does that exist in your life For me, it's like so Ive spent a pit a long pit Tunker time Dwelling on the past looked like dwelling, mulling it over, being down about The fact are lots of different things, deccisions I've made u the fact that I'm not doing something that I loved anymore I was just And instead I just reframed it and thought Aually I should reflect. I should reflect, not dwell, just reflect on it. but don't spend too much time reflecting This didn't happen Like that when I decided to reflect, I had to spend a lot of time working hard on Becoming positive again, I'd always been positive found myself in this negative space due to all the things that we've already spoken about, whether it be all my levels to do with adrenaline cauis old test, you know, we Natural levels of things are just tanked and shot to fuck and also not having a solid home life to come back to and dealing with all the sorts of stresses. That's had an impact. So Stop dwelling on that because it's done Just reflect on it, try and learn from it Don't spend too much time there. and then The other thing that I was doing was What if I fuck up again? What if I do that? What if I do that? What if I do this? What if I make that decision again And I'm like I'm stressing out about something that hasn't even happened That's like So I had to keep reminding myself of that. I had to put in a lot of work I had to force myself to be positive until it became second nature again and then you know, just, Be present we spend so little time being present peopleople often say like past is depression, the future is anxiety So like be in the now if you can, but it's hard is because life is dragging you. What's happening tomorrow? What did I fuck up yesterday So was part of that developing kindind of like in a voice. Yeah. and How were you interacting with a critical inner voice H Like did what did stiff It's difficult to say how I was reacting with a cricklinger voice now Be I feel like I'm I feel like I'm in a very good spot I still have moments where I'm like I still get down, you know, this Monday morning, fucking hour I fucking woke up this morning like Oh Jesus Christ Not because of this because it's fine if it is because of that I know. because it's Monday, you know, you're like, I've got a whole fucking week. I'm not ready for this thing on Thursday You know, and yeah, I'm What I do now is I allow it to have that space, but then I'm sitting there going. You know, things that youve got a little boy there, he's smiling He's happy. that's good Wife' smiling, That's more important. You know, all this sort of good stuff and I suppose I spent a lot of time where I was forcing that, whereas now I just automatically sort of allow myself to have a bit of a feel human, but then it's about, you know, not allowing it to sort of charge So is that is that what mindfulness means to you? Yeah, that is it, that's mindfulness. It's like being a bit more Zen and ort Thinking about the past, thinking about the future, all those things that we do as adults and then being like, okay They've had their moments Now just the only thing that's real is this. have have a mindfulness moment So what was it What's your relationship like with adrenaline now? because you still do pretty hairy stuff Yeah, I love it Do you have to be careful with it? Do you haveave you tried to seek it out in Destructive ways or numb it with destructive substances N I to be fair, I did I have drunk a lot in the past that I was self medicated when I was in the military, you know, I'd come home from The bits that I remember was I was coming home when I was still serving operational My home life was gone by that stage. Mim out misses it split up separated. I lived on my own And I was coming home from doing Crazy stuff as in work crazy stuff and just I would I would down I was a funct I suppose a functioning alcoholic. I'd down like two bottles of wine whilst watching TV. Wake up at five in the morning, go and train thenen go to work and do all the crazy stuff again and then continually do that and repeat. And then I think that then happened as well after I'd left, it was still going on. I mean It doesn't happen now. barely drink, but I mean, I do drink every now and again, but not. Nothing like that. I don't drink at home hardly. and you know, I've realized that that is not a good way, but that wasn an escapism. that was going on And how did you end that cycle Um ion I How did I end that cycle I think it was probably In and around, the cycle properly ended after about M do in the SAS show, the second series. actually before then when I went the cycle probably ended when I went and did a massive challenge where I sort of me and a few mates, we rode across an ocean and There was a bit of adrenaline there and I putting myself in the mind of anyone struggling with their drinking you might be listening to. All you got to do is shter a canoe get to Nfoundland. No, but find new ways to make yourself uncomfortable. We all have different levels of uncomfortable And I don't mean in a toxic way, I mean go and do something that gets you out and about that takes your mind off of the escapism that you're looking for. Whether that's going the Welsh mountains and having a bit of a hike round the foothills, not going and doing Kv in Go and get out and enjoy like give yourself the space to be mindful is what I mean. I mean, that was a little bit extreme. I've gone and used but that was my circuit break to be fair But that's a really important point is like drinking or you're using deal with discomfort So find another discomfort Yeah, it's perhaps more positive, more challenging. takes you out of your mind, puts you into your body. allows you to be present, makes you concentrate on more important things than getting absolutely fucked up. There's a lot of focus on toxic masculinity and You've just got toa been in ro with you for five seconds to know you are masculine No No not. But that. But I wonder if toxic masculinity is not the right focus. And perhaps the right focus is what's healthy masculinity What's what a good what are good masculine traits for you for someone who's been around men in, I guess awful, good, toxic, brotherly situations. So for me Toxic manulinity. How much can I swear on this As much as you want? All right, you might want to I might have to reword this but Toxic masculinity can be summed up in a very short sentence, which is donon't be a cun. I genuinely believe that L what I do a lot nowadays being a I'd like to thank a responsible husband Father friend There's lots of different temptations in the world and vices and all this sort of stuff before you decide do or say something I think about the impact that that might have on other people outside of me You know, And if it's going to be negative any way, shape or form, then I won't do it I won't I won't succumb to my, you know whatever it is that has been carrot that's been dangled and that might be like Me and Mrses have got a weekend planned and then someone's offered me tickets to go and watch Arsenal I'm over and watch our snope but I'm not going to do it because You know, unless I've had a proper robust conversation with my misses or the tickets were before we' done the whole thing, you know, then I won't go but That can come down to other things as well, but Healthy masculinity for me is about U You know, it's a lot to unpack, but It's about being there for people, whether that is your partner, your kids, Y friends anyone, anyone that you could be walking past, but also You know Being vulnerable, I think vulnerability is important to be a male, I think it's been For a long, long time that has been pooood as a masculine trait. I think it's a very masculine trait. I think I've grown from being vulnerable. It's probably one of the most important things to me is to be vulnerable beid I think people misinterpret it as well as like, I'm not going to be a fanny that's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying like be vulnerable. Ustand what your weaknesses are. Share them people know that you don't care what you notot that you don't care, but you're aware of them And for me, it's that You know, it is it's simply phrase is don't be a dick Maybe there's a slightly less aggressive version of the phrase. Well, I think the first thing you said really struck a chord with me because I think the most powerful displays of masculinity I see are when people don't react. and when people pause And when people have a range of different reactions, they could go. It could be anger, it could be violence, it could be silence, it could be you know crruelty or humour or whatever And I guess as someone who has been given a very wide range of potential reactions by your training, by your experiences. Bye. later experiences like therapy It's taking responsibility for that, okay, which bit of my toolbox am I going to dip into in this situation? A Am I able to pause and think and use a bit of empathy in that process So the u What I interpret you saying there is what I would call is the ability to control your emotional at your yourour physical response to an emotion an emotion as far as I'm concerned for us as humans is just an it's an alarm bellt It's something it's our internal system telling us that we need to pay attention to something telling us to act. That's that's the that's the key and I'm actually going write that down. that's really wise. and' I've been in situations where I have upon my emotions and I'm embarrassed about it, you know I've got into trouble, I've got into fights and all that sort of stuff and nowadays I try my hardest to When I feel an emotion building inside me, let's use anger. it's a great emotion talk about When I get angry the back of my head feels prickly like there I get I get prickly heat, I suppose and I feel myself get You know, we all love that rage And I'm like, I need to really, really consider my next moves. and the best thing I should probably do is take myself out of this situation or or think about what my next response is becausecause the the next, you know action could It could be the downfall of not just you, everyone else around you as an example So that's what I try to focus on a lot now is like being measured in your emotional response to something. Another example that I like to use right rooad raage is a good one to use. Pople most people can you know get what I'm coming from If you're in your car and you see people conducting road raage, they look like Fucking idiots Everyone wants to look cool. In this day and age, everyone wants to look cool and chilled out and like have you ever seen an angry person look cool They should mayaybe you should just focus on that You know Oh just look cool That's an easy way of putting it in don't Don't allow yourour emotions are there to be paid attention to. they're not there to be acted upon Brilliant. I think that's such a fantastic note to end on. If anyone sees me angry, ignore it Oh Jason, thank you so much for joining us. That's been a really great chat and I think people get a lot from that thank you. cheers thanks for having me in There you go, Jason Fox and I really enjoyed that, especially the idea Certain emotion is an alarm bell alerting you to the fact something needs your attention, which is such a useful way of seeing our internal landscape. sort of non judgmental but also very present Jason will be joining me again on Thursday for our bonus podcast The grrasshoe List