Meeting Prince William and Future Goals

Hello everyone. It's John here, just letting you know that I have written a book It's called Thirst, twelve drinks that Change My life. and it's out now. In many episodes of How Do you Cope You'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol, and in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people Why did it mean some things felt better? and why did it mean so many things went wrong I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope? Meditation, physical pain, gratitude, trauma, and therapy There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest Thirst is out now, and the audiob book, read by me, is available wherever you get audiobooks from Hello and welcome to How you Cope with me John Robbins. This is the show where I sit down with special guests to talk about the challenges they've overcome and the coping mechanisms they use in their everyday lives before we go any further, I do need to mention that this episode covers the loss of a young child and also suicide Do listen with care And if you need any support, you can find links to resources in the show notes Today's guest is Ryanne Mannings An incredible woman who's been through the very worst of what life can throw at you twenty twelve. Rhanne lost her one year old son, George after he suffered a sudden seizure just five days later A husband Paul took his own life Since this unimaginable trauma Rihanne has channeeled her grief into helping those around her she set up to wish charity created in her son and husband's memory that very same year Its mission is to ensure that every person affected by the sudden and unexpected death of a child or young adult has access to bereavement support Charity is now working with almost every A andE department in Wales searates family rooms and hospitals to provide a private place of comfort and support after a sudden death. They also provide free memory boxes for families to create in the hospital Last year, Twish began its expansion from Wales into England Rianne's dedication and hard work was recognized in twenty twenty. where she was presented with a Pride of Britain Award by Michael Sheheen who described her as a true Welsh national treasure who transforms personal tragedy into a vital lifeline for others. And last year, she hit the headlines when Prince William visited her house in Cardiff I've been to the offffices of Tuish in Wales A couple of times now. metet Ranne and the rest of the team They're some of the most driven and inspiring people I've ever met Walls are lined with stars, each bearing the name of a child whose family they have helped Those stars now number over three thousand It's an honor and a privilege to sit down with her today. to discuss amongst other things Loss, grief, resilience and purpose. You can find out all about Tish Tuish. org. Uk That's number two Before we get started, don't forget that you can now watch every episode of How Do you Cope on YouTube. just search for how do you Cope pod And you can of course listen to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts Do hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode For more info or to get in touch, head to howd youcoatpod. com Hi Rianne. Wlcome to How do you Cope? How are you doing I'm good, than you. Thanks for having me. Oh it's a real pleasure to chat to you And I was thinking on the way in likeike the word journey is probably overused in this sort of world, but there's no avoiding it here because yourour life has become something I doubt you could ever have imagined. So should we start from the beginning and maybe you could tell us about where you met your husband Paul and what he was like Yeah, so Paul and I met in Somerset. I was a P teacher at the time. And he came back to the school he originally went to as an old boy to play some cricket. We were set up on a blind date, would you believe? And yeah, the rest is history and very talented sportsman. He just lit up a room when he walked into it. Everyone had nothing but amazing things to say about him. He was kind, gentle and just loved people really did. And had either of you had any sort of experiences of difficult periods of mental health up to that point or major upheavals in your lives No, we were both fortunate to get to an age where we'd lost our grandparents first apart from that, No. and We were both very fortunate. We had lovely stable families, you know, homes and Yeah, no, nothing. and we both very veryer much freent laid back but very positive outlook on life And you moved to Wales together Yeah, I dragged him over the Seven Bridge. with my job at the time, but his job covered that area anyway. and that's where he settled. yeah. And when did you decide to start a family together? What was your sort of pregnancy journey like We were again very fortunate. We were pregnant pretty much on honeymoon and then have three children in three years So it was pretty chaotic. It was quite full on. Very full on, but it was what we wanted. We wanted more children as well. and family was everything to us Tell us about George So George was our third child. So Holly was three, Isaac two and George was one. I think he just had to get on with life. He was pulled from pillar to post, but he was just so happy, always smiling, laughing, slept when he should, at when he should. He was just absolutely amazing. And even then we called him a little star because he was just honestly amazing to have in the house. And how were you managing the childcare? Because like I know people who've had kid and they've planned to have another kid and then maybe it's come a bit sooner and they've found two a bit overwhelming Three children in three years is a big ask It was, but it's all I ever wanted. You know we both talked about it very early on in our relationship and I can remember being at Uni and being asked what we wanted to do in our lives. and I just wanted to be a wife and a mum and have a big family. It was chaotic. I was fortunate my family lived nearby, but I just wanted to be with them all the time, taking them places. absolutely loved my life, absolutely everything I ever wanted. And both of you sort of How did he take to fatherhood? What was he like as a dad to those kids He was just the best You know, we didn't know on any of them if we were having a boy or a girl. and the first one, Holly was a little girl with these big blue eyes and she seriously was a daddy's girl from that moment, our second was a bit of a handful But we were a team. We really were. like he'd sit up with me at night when I was feeding. we took it in turns to get up in the mornings, you know, it was Don't get me wrong, you know, it's hard. and probably but you forget the hard bits because it was just so amazing and as I said, all we ever wanted You've used the word fortunate an awful lot. even in the sort of few minutes we've been chatting, so very conscious of the fact that to this point things were going according to plan and but then You were very unfortunate with with George's health. Could you tell us what happened Yeah, and it was a normal day. I'd only been back in work a few days after my third maternity leave. and George was literally happy and smiling one minute and then the next minute just rolled over onto the floor and started having a fet you just think these things happen. We did call an ambulance because we were concerned obviously Um He was rushed to the hospital No one could find out why this has happened so quickly And then sadly, within two hours of being admitted to the hospital, he died. So something that you never expect to your family So what was that experience being so sudden completely unexpected Like what was happening in your mind, your body How was finding it, is there any way in which you're even dealing with it or is it just sort of happening to you happens to you? You know if someone had told us that that's what we were going to go through that night, you just wouldn't imagine surviving it, but you do. you just go through the process. Sock affects everyone in very different ways for us We just became numb very, very quickly and you just sududdenly become I almost felt like I was floating above the scene watching on another family because you see this on TV all the time But this doesn't happen to you. and probably took years. many years to actually ever come to terms with what had happened to us that night And what was from the sort of What agencies are involved sort of professional What contact are you having when someone loses a child in the sort of medical setting? So would. talkal us through that process if there even is a process So you have so many doctors and nurses around the bedside and they were all absolutely amazing But then when he died, we were allocated a nurse who was amazing as well, really looked after us U But then you leave the hospital, Obviously you have to go home at some point. you weren't rushed, but you do A man you hear from no one Literally nobody Apart from the police whom nobody had warned us would come knocking on our door, after he died. So you get a phone call, you get a phone call and a visit the following day from the police out of the blue. and you immediately think there' something iss wrong, you're under investigation, that you're guilty of something And that really hit Paul like massively but as far as anybody reaching out to us Never It's fourteen years and nobody has ever phoned us to check never checked on us or the children. So from the The second you step out of the hospital. The sort of the care ends. Tim is certainly dead, ye And what and are the police investigating orr do they have to investigate all sudden deaths of children. What's going on there? Yeah, so the police, obviously now I know a lot more of the whole process. There is a very strict process after a sudden death, but obviously a sudden death of a child. There is a really strict process. The police are involved, The family doctors often involved. People sort of come together to talk about the circumstances around this, safeguarding, et ccetera But nobody explained that to us. So when you find out people are talking behind your back Please come Kock in to interview you about your son's death when he was literally smiling here one minute and gone the next You feel like a criminal. And you know having some communication about that would have helped, but even then it would have still been it would have just made things even well it did. It made things a lot worse I still can't believe that when you have a child and I had three young children you get so much support And then your child dies completely unexpectedly and you walk out into the dark of the night and you get nothing. We did get given aly flirt with some phone numbers on someomewhere out of date And the rest promise to bring us back And I'm still waiting fourteen years old. Kidding me? No National charities people still refer to today So was the I guess what was the expectation those charities of what service those charities would provide I suppose you don't have any expectation. You've never been through this before. So you don't have any expectations. So actually when we didn't get any support We just thought, well, is that what happens? And it was sadly what happened You expect someone to reach out to you Someone to make you feel that you matter, but also your son's death mattered and that he mattered And those feelings of abandonment and isolation and those feelings that no one cared contribute so much to your mental health when you go through this journey. as much as your grief becausecause he deserved better than that. and our family did You know, we had two toddlers at home Nobody even asked or spoke to us about them, their welfare, Were they at risk? but also more importantly, how do you talk about death to a two and three year old when they' almost they'd witnessed part of what happened to George as well? was I think you expect things to be in place until you face it and there was nothing available for our family and Looking back now What would have been your sort of best practice what we needed in those first twenty four hours week We need someone who had an idea of the process. Everyone grieves differently. so there is no rulebx But what they can do is sit with you and they can say blame All of these emotions are normal in a very unnormal situation when you lose a child. But also things like, well, you do have to now get a death certificate. He will have to have a post mortem all of these questions that we had They were very unlikely going to be able to tell us how he died. We sort of understood that at the time at that point. But you have so many questions. You know, what do you say to children? What terminology do you use? You just want someone and also someone just to sit with you and go Tell me about George. How do you feel Because the only people you have are also drowning around you And it didn't matter how much I said to Paul, it'd be okay and how much he told me He know, how did I know So Someone to come out and sit with us truly believe we're have saved you know, save what followed. for our family. Yeah So how Obviously, you and Paul both you've described as being numb devastated the alone by the sort of healthcare system what was What was sort of Paul's state? over those over those days was It because I sort of want to say Did you notice anything unusual? but the entire situation is unusual So yeah, everything about him was probably unusual. but was there anything that made you particularly concerned Well do you not really have the space to even? you know what it's something I think of. Not a day goes by, even now where I don't go over those last minutes and hours that we spent together That weekend was, as you say, very unusual What I can remember was he was extremely emotional. He cried more than I'd ever seen before. You know, you don't see that very often. I didn't cry at all, which again was very unusual. It was like our rolls completely flipped But we talked massively all weekend, We talked about our future, we talked about how much we loved each other and how much we needed the children to still have that stability and Did I miss something? As I said, I think about it a lot. generually don't think I did Um when I look back Would I do probably everything I do Th then, yeah, I probably would do it again You know, because we'd just lost our child So he didn't eat much, he didn't sleep much. He cried a lot but we just watched our son pass away. So Yeah. But I'll always wonder, always. and sadly You know, I will never know So was it five days after George passed away that Paul took his own life Wh how did you find out? Where was your head at? I mean, do you have even memories that of that moment Yeah You forget some things, but some things will be clear forever really. and Paul just was very upset on the Monday morning and we talked a lot that morning, but he just kept saying this was his fault that he had failed us as a dad, that he had failed me as his wife as my husband and It wass really hard to hear so far from the truth. You know when we go back to what we were talking about about how amazing our family was, I was so proud of it. and Seeing and hearing him like that upset me a lot to the point where I actually was very set And then the next thing my family came upstairs saying they had gone off in the car And even then I wasn't concerned because we were going to go out that day and I thought he's gone off on his own to clear his head We went downstairs, we were just drinking a cup of tea. and That's when a police car pulled up on the driveway with two police officers in uniform And you just know from well from your TV experiences you know people come into the door police officers and their uniforms not going to be Good news and Yeah, my mum oped the door I can remember a screaming They called me out into the hallway, they sat me down, and that's when they said he was dead Do Talk us through the impact on your b Body because I can only when I'm trying to put myself in that position I can't I mean, I can't. I think a You know Anyone listening who's not been through something so extreme would struggle to imagine how The human body actually copes with that Were you just sort of compleomtely frozen or were you Yeah in hysterics? No Nothing just complete peace. It was bizarre The people around me weren't my family, mum and dad, my sister were quite hysterical. And I can just remember basically losing all bodily function, start sort of dribbling on myself and just into the sofa and pretty much stayed like that for a good few days, really. I couldn't rend what happened. The children weren't there, thankfully. But then It's almost like it happens and then you just Get on And I think because I had the children and the police then they couldn't tell us at the time what had happened to Paul And then they just left us They said that someone would be back within an hour to tell us what happened to him our turn to five and a half hours that we sat there as a family coming up with all of our own scenarios in our head We had to break the news to his family who traveled up to see him You know, it'd been reported on the Welsh newews, the incident that we luckily hadn't seen. So all of these things were also going on. and you just go into almost like this automatic mode of I want to protect everybody else 's going to be okay. We'll get through this. And then they came back in the evening to tell us what happened and Yeah There was no tears. That's the weirdest thing about it. There was no tears for weeks to the point where people were concerned about that How do you react when you lose what felt like everything in five days When someone takes their in life feeleings can be enormously complicated about that act and Previous guests on this podcast have spoken about varing from Europe deep sadness to frustration, to really sort of violent anger What was your experience of I guess grief on grief and two varied Were they different types of grief Berry very different types of grief and very different grieving process following even to this day. so you lose your son um of t seem to say natural causes, but he had pneumonia. we found out later U He's your son, different relationship and all of that and it's quite I always call that almost like a simple grief just miss him and I wish this had never happened to our family. Pauleds grief is is very, very different because be here today. He should be watching his children grow up They should never have happened to us My emotions have changed very much towards him But have I ever been and I can honestly say I've never been angry with him for walking out and never coming home Never I think Someone spoke to me quite early on saying, you know you're not angry when people walk out and their heart stops beating He walked out and his hearts, his mind just stopped I truly believe that, you know, I don't think he left the house that day to intentionally take his own life and that's what the verdict of his inquest came back as actually, that it was accidental death that this person was so traumatised by what he'd been through. which is irrelevant. We know what happened He should never have been left alone to deal with his grief. and he walked out And he never came home and that should. And that should have been avoided if we'd have had help and he's missed out on so much and that's when I get angry that he He hasn'tenollly and Isaac grow up. That's like extraordinary that you've you see it in that way and it takes an enormous amount of Just like empathy and strength to come to that place Because I think if someone was reading about your story on theort BBC News website, you've been in the press quite a lot with the work you've done They're probably feeling like angry on your behalf. but the comments are awful. Are they really Not as much recently, but in the beginning and I wasn't used to it, people would say, how could he How could he do this to his family after everything they were going through I know friends thought it Initially, you know my best s of friends have admitted their first initial thought was how could you do that to Rhan and those kids I think some of our family did as well. and they's certainly been shamed. you know, going through some of the relationships where people wouldn't say how he died for ages and we did from the minute it happened And I genuinely am so passionate about raising awareness of it because H on heart If I hadn't have been affected by this Maybe I would have been one of those people You meet Paul and you realize what an incredible man he was And I have been in the darkest possible places and I still didn't what he did. so I can't even imagine the pain he must have been experiencing And he was the most special, amazing man and I will love him and be proud of him forever So He basically ran out of coping mechanisms. 's like one way of Yeah interpreting what you're saying and it was all he had at his disposal to deal with that level of trauma and grief. And I guess what we were talking about earlier about the after care could have given him other places to go could have had given him other tools in his toolkit that would have protected him without a shad of he was convinced this was his fault that he was a bad person for letting his son die And those were his exact words when he walked out of the house And you need someone to sit there and say You will feel like this It's okay And we never had that all and there were mistakes made by the police during the investigation, the hospital could have done things better. And there were just lots of little opportunities which could have made things better. made things worse instead and it all contributed to his state of mind that day. I truly believe that And you talked about difficulty in explaining this to Polly and u Isaac especially at that age If you were writing a pamphlet on talking to a two three year old or a four year old about a sudden death How would you advise yourself or how would you advise someone in a similar position? You know, I'm not a counselor, you know, And so for me, I think as a mum, I felt I knew my children best You know, people said to me, you need to tell them, like they were two and three You need to tell them that their dad has taken his own life and I refuse to But what I did do is tell him that he had died I use the word died and dead, which is really important. You know the phrases have passed away, gone to heaven, gone to sleep forever mean Very little to us, does it? But to children, it doesn't mean anything And then I just built the building blocks. I told them that he'd died, he'd fallen and all of these different things And then I didn't actually tell them until they were nine or eight or nine. And that was probably one of the hardest, hardest conversations. But actually I think the generation, that generation today and certainly perhaps a bit older, They seem to get it a lot more and they talk very much more about suicide and mental health and things like that I think for children, all I would advise is to be honest as honest as you can be and gentle You know your children never lie to them. But also for me what I look back on, I think routine is a crucial thing for children So my mum and dad moved in quite quickly after it happened and stayed with me for nearly two years which I was again very lucky to have and they went to school every day, the children. they didn't miss their football practices. You know, and children are quite When I say selfish, that sounds a very negative word, but They just want Christmas presents and birthday presents and they want tea at the end of the day and someone to tuck them in bed. And we did all that. they're amazing. They're amazing. They're, you know, these strapy teenagers now who are just amazing who will always have questions and may need support when they grow up. But we're very open and we talk Don't hide it Don't hide the pictures away. Don't hide, not say their names because our lives have moved on massively. Paul and George are still talked about. theirir photos are still around the room. and they are part of our lives and they always will be I remember prerevious guest on this show, Simon Thomas lost his wife saying how his child's reaction, his child's grief was very helpful to him because His son would become very upset As questions, be very distressed and then be playing all of a sudden And wanting to go jump in puzle and they're so in the present moment Did you find things like that helpful to you to pull you out of the sort of headspace you were in Hm Absolutely. know they they're very black and white, but they are incredibly resilient and we could learn so much from them. I can remember we didn't tell them that Georgia died for three days and we had been worrying about what to say And we came up with this thing that when you're alive, you have a body full of sparkle. but when you die, you don't need your body anymore lives forever and it goes into the sky and becomes a star And we'd rehearsed it a thousand times. And we sat down with them and told them and they looked at us and went All right And the next thing Holly was eating chocolate biscuits and Isaac was playing with his ball That's how they were. it was and they call it jumping in puddles because they play in one minute and the next minute they jump out and they are crying U and They just taught me things like I remember being in the paddling pool in the garden and they were splashing into the air saying, I wonder if we can get Daddy wet up there And it broke my heart at the time. But I also think those typees of things help because you also have to keep going for them And it's okay to show them emotion. I've cried in front of them many, many a time because you don't want them to think they They can't cry But I think children help massively They are a hurtful reminder at times as well and I' Ashamed to say sometimes I just didn't want to be their mum anymore because it just reminded me of so much of what I'd lost But I'm also just so proud of the young people they've become. I don't know where I'd be without them And obviously you talked about like the people around you I guess sort of family and close friends are also going through Grief this in this emergency kind of Nightmare scenario that no one could have imagined How did that develop over time? Because I know people say that in the immediate aftermath of a bereavement There's an awful lot of support Then two months later, six months later Quite understandably other people's lives take over and they go back to their routines So Could you maybe talk about sort of the timeline of those of that first year were their difficult moments in times you didn't expect Yeah, I think it's true. You really do find out who your friends are. I never got angry about that. I think again, until you've been through it, you don't know how hard that would be. and some of my friends had children of the same age We were all very close and it really affected them and some of them did just walk away and never come back. That's really hard to say because what that does as well is make you think that you're the bad person in this blame you for this mess. and I think that then contributes to your mental health going forward There are also some amazing people. So there's certainly a couple of my friends who were there you know, before New us is a family of five and are still there today. and When we go out, they always ask me, Sterl, how are you becausecause very few people ask me now how I am about Paul and George, maybe on their birthdays Every day, is still a struggle at times and it's the real friends who have seen you in your really low places know that They just want to check in or they just text you out the blue But also strangers and community. I think the news is full of bad news about communities and people out there, but actually My community was just incredible. They came together, they didn't really know us. we didn't really know them and they just wanted to help And they just delivered food parcels and brought money and presents for the children And even now you know, they are very supportive of us and The children, I feel have always been protected by a community because they all knew them right you know, you don't want that, but they do. Yeah, but You also have to realize that this has happened. lifeife will never be the same. You will lose people, you gain people. And you've just got to just keep sometimes thinking of yourself as well moving forward And was there any advice you got from people around you who'd been through their own bereavements or Any things that you just sort of evolved coping mechanisms that you can remember were really helpful sort day to day M. I think I had I didn't know anyone who'd lost a child before at all So I didn't have anybody like that. And we were thirty two So there was very few people who'd lost their husbands or wives. So I didn't have many people like that And you do, again, I will admit, you do get quite angry about just general comments when you've been through these things and people mean well, but when they tell you, they know how you feel because dog died or their great granny died and stuff that that makes you think, no, you don't know how I feel. But no, I think my copper mechanism always has been a talker. as you can probably tell, But even from day one, people came talk. And we just talked about Paul and George and what happened. and And that was for me the biggest coping mechanism and every morning however hard it is and even today I find it hard to get up some mornings gettingetting up every morning, getting the children dressed every day was part of my routine and I had to do it Did you seek out any counseling or any help from any agencies aside from those initial numbers that you called? you you go through your GP or get any sort of private counselling So I tried the GP, the GP was ammazing, to be fair, he came out in the early days in his lunch hour to see me occasionally, just to check in on me. But he himself would sit there and say, I'm so sorry, but you'd have to wait about eighteen months now to see somebody and receive some support And you're sat there thinking, well, my husband lasted five days. so that did get a counsellor from a charity that did come out after few weeks after losing Paul, but To be honest, I didn't find counsellling helped me. It helps people. It's incredible For me, it didn't because actually so open. I'll talk to anyone about this, sometimes too much, whereas counlling for me didn't really help. But actually I went into a real denial, which people do go into that with grief. And for me, I was fine I was fighting these things happen It was gonna to be okay. I had Holly and Isaac, I had my parents, I had friends. We lived in a nice house be fine And I think it was going to be fine for about five years I cried probably a handful of times in those five years and I just kept going. And then one day I woke up and couldn't get out of bed, I couldn't move. thought I'd a stroke physically just had lost any feeling really in my body And I went to the doctors and realized that that was it. that was grief on me and telling me to stop Wow. What was it telling you to stop pretending it was all okay actually It is okay to be sad. it's okay to actually admit that this had happened to you that life was hard, that these people were missing, a variety of things You know, I hadn't realized how I'd just pushed it to the back of my mind on I You know, I didn't want my family to see me struggling because I felt that this was my fault and I was throwing them into this turmoil. I wanted them to be okay I wanted the kids to be okay. I wanted my friends to be okay. I didn't want to be a burden on anyone. And then one day it just And I realized that I was at rock bottom now and needed I did need some help So what what changed after day what What help did you seek? Did you change your behavior? Were you more you more vulnerable and emotional around people? What was different after that sort of rock bottom? Yeah, so I think I still wore the mask. I'm a very good mask wearer, which I think a lot of us are I still publicly came across pretty much okay But I did seek psychiatric support. I was very fortunate to get fast track then and get some support with my mental health I had a variety of mental health interventions and psychotherapies eventually leading to EMDR therapy that I had You know, everybody is different, but for me changed my life forever. I amm huge advocate of. I just can't talk about it highly enough, but as I said, everyone is different And that is where I started sorting my head out literally. EMDR literally sorted my head into filing cabinets and drawers just made things a bit tidier so I could actually think rather than just have this mess going around in my head C you could you I've had a I had EMDR in lockdown. And I know a friend of mine has had it and found it to be mind blowing. My experience is a bit different because it was over Zoom. so I'm not sure it's sort of quite I had the full u experperience, but could you explain what it is and what happens and the theory of it Yeah, again, I, you know, this is from my own perspective here that you know, I'd sit the with the psychotherapist, like you and I are sat here now And between us there'd be a strobe light. It was about this bigg and it was like ust a green light, I chose green for some reason. and this light just went back and forth like this all the time And the idea was it is horrendous. It's the most painful experience ever My psychotherapist would say to me I want you now to think about And when he died And that's in there, but I don't talk and think about it very much. but you're looking at this moving light And he asks you to talk to him about that experience And you're talking about it and you're crying your eyes out and it's really, really vivid and horrible. But all I can describe then is that your mind goes to completely random places. So I'd be looking at this light thinking George is on the bed, H his heart is stopped They're resusitating him. He's passed away M Pula are on the beach in Barbados now you know, drinking cocktails And then I'm back in work now teaching and I'm going home and putting the children to bed. L your brain, my brain, just jumped. And all I can describe it as is like an old fashionedure picture reel, film reel, where it flips, just goes round and round and round. and the memories would just going and round and round and round like that And I literally could feel my head. hiding it all up I I screamed, I cried. I tried to get out of the room several times. I threw up I didn't know what to do. It was really harrowing. and I always tell people people who talk about it, I said, it's the most painful thing because you rel live it all every feeling, every smell, everything, and you talk about it at the same time And I was very fortunate to have quite a few sessions of it and Just live with it It never went away. It didn't stop it from going away. just I was just able to live with it in these little boxes that I can now open and close when I want That's incredible. So it's like a sort of Like the hard drive is being sort of scanned and re repositioned and How is the How are those boxes that all of those memories are in now How is that easier to live with than where they were before what's the sort of the difference of your experience of say, because we're talking now, you've mentioned George's death and you've mentioned the The images you have of that and the sounds How is the way you experience them now different because of that therapy don't really know I think I I still think about them, but I don't get overly confused. A lot of the EMDR therapy for me as well was around my trauma and I had a lot of PTSD and I had a lot of issues afterwards. So the biggest issue for me was answering the front door couldn't answer the front door for nearly eight years. I'd have to go in, look out the front window, check it wasn't a police car or someone bring in bad news n if it was just a knock out of the blue, I'd ignore it and hide. And after my EMDR therapy Don't ask me how. But I eventually did it and it was all I were talking through how I was going to anser the door during the therapy and everything and Yeah. And even though I'd say now sometimes I do get a little bit of a butterfly if I hear the door and I don't know who's coming before it would be sheer panic. So whatever's happened to my brain. allowed me to be able to move forward a little bit better. and But yeah, you know, everyone is different, it doesn't work for everybody. But for me, it significantly changed my messy brain. You know, I couldn't concentrate, I couldn't sleep, I couldn't sit still, I was fidgeting constantly. I was very restless. and I've always been quite a about person just just took that edge off it a little bit for me And at what point in this process Did you realize that something needed to be done for people going through similar situations And at what point did you decide it was you that needed to do that probablyroably twow weeks after the funeral. very, very quickly really quickly because I was just trying to find help for me and the kids and I couldn't find any. and So it was really, really quick Probably too quicket probably, well, definitely me from accepting what had happened for a long time because it was a really positive thing I was focusing on And I just threw myself into it deffinitely became addicted to it, D definitely stayed you know staying up twenty four seven to do it U back and I think I should have probably waited more, but You can't have regrets and you know, it's become something phenomenal. so I'm glad I did start it. but I think it probably protected me too much in the beginning and I should have faced my fears a little bit more first. So beginning your charity was a part of that sort of five year pre rock bottom sort of coping way of coping. Yeah and thankfully continued after that. So tell us about to wish So toish is a charity that It's like no other really in the sense of obviously there's two people at the heart of it, the legacy, so Paul and George I think being this homegrown charity that is growing with people who go out from our organization Be that light when people have lost their child or young They young adult, child under cddertain circumstances you know, I was I said from that minute I wanted a knock on the door in twenty four That was what I said two weeks later. I was like, someone should knock on someone's door after twenty four hours and hold their hand out and say, let's have a cup of tea and being a P teacher, having no experience in running a business or a charity or anything like that It was a dream D didn't have clue how I was going to do it But I knew that I needed a focus. I did try and go back to work. It just wasn't what I wanted to do anymore just threw myself in. too finding out really, will be a mistake? Will be a family that fell through the net. So I went out to find this net And I drove aroundound hospitals and I drove around A andEs and just went in and said, canan I speak to somebody? And everyone said, yes, which was just bonkers. you know, who was I and found out that There is no map You know, people were dying in AE department at the time all over Wales et in their belongings back if they're an adult and going home into the dark of the night and if they're a child, the same as us get nothing And the staff were just amazing. I realized how incredible they were that you know they wanted more for these families. They would think about these families for weeks, months, years afterwards And I thought, you know what I'm gonna to change this. And I think I became quite focused, to say the least, very passionate just made sure I wanted to make sure that no other family would leave their hospital with that child leave their child in the hospital G home And their daddy never had any other choice but to walk out and take his own life And that's what drove me to establish Ih I've visited Tuish twice and I think it would be great is if you talk us through some of the The statistics of what you do now and then problem you face service you provide and then maybe we can go back and work out how on earth you came this far So Tuition now is a National organisation in Wales, so we cover the whole of Wales. We cover all of the borderom counties, including Huge areas now like Merseyside, Devon and Cornwall, Wiltshire Hampshire, Dorset. We have tripled our referrals pretty much in three years. So we covered whales initially and realized actually that our model of practice was very unique peopleople were starting to reach out to us over from England So we started mapping services and in England, to be fair, there were some really great pockets of bereavement support available and like in Wales. So when you say covered Wales What do you mean by that So u we But four years ago we hit our target of working with every Aie pololice force, every organ donation team, everyes well, the Wales Air Abulance team, the coroners, the mortuaries crritical care units, we have relationships with somebody in all of those places We offer counselling and support to anyone in Wales who loses a child or young adult under certain circumstances and you know, these fam the hospitals that we work with have all now got a suitable space pretty much for families to sit waiting for hopefully good news, but often bad. We offer memory boxes in all of these areas, so wherever a child or young adult may die suddenly, a family can do memory making with the staff on duty. and we have our immediate support pathway which was my biggest ambition to make sure that no family left with a leaflet. that with their consent, their information would be given to our organisation and we will reach out to them That knock on the door in twenty four basically became a reality. And then we go out to the family and we'll sit with them and have that cup of tea and talk about that child and look at photos and maybe help with funeral arrangements or anythingything else practical, but reallyally it's to sit there and make that family feel that they matter feel that their child mattered which is what we didn't get and before to wish mostost of the families didn't get either So because of you and because of to wish Wales has gone from a situation in which no families who lost a child or young adult were contacted. after the death and now every fam is They have to consent Yeah majority consent. And I talk in over like eighty nine percent of families say yes. And yeah We now support the Soviously initially you I guess you're basing the service you want to provide and what you needed or what you wished you'd had for you and Paul What have you learnted along the way from families? about other things people need and find important. gosh, you know, I based it on what I thought that we could have done. but as I've always you know stressed, people are so different. goodness like support groups have been a massive part of what we do. in the I never really wanted, you know? and againg, it shows that everyone is different. So we do these coffee mornings and we bring our professionals together. so staff who've worked with these families, we've brought them together and Ive really learnnt the effect that sudden death of a child on professionals and Blue lightight services has. So we do a lot of support for them as well. and You know, exercise prescription was something we looked at at one point because Running for me became a real part of my mental health support We've had football teams of dads, rugby teams, cricket teams of dads who want to come together, they don't really want to sit in a circle and talk about it, but they want to be with other people who understand. and we are open to whatever people want, we try and meet those needs. We've looked at journaling. We've looked at support for the children, you, all of these different things. and I think You have to as an organization, meet these different demands on families because otherwise they'd have nowhere to go and H now that you've expanded into England I'm guessing from what I know of you, your goal is to goinging expanding But have there been new challenges as you've gone outside of Wales It's not easy. Tish is a charity, you know, built with heart and love. but it's also a business now. And that's a steep learning curve for not only myself, but for some of the staff and people don't like change. And we've grown from this little charity around the kitchen table big organization, so to keep staff on that journey with you isn't easy but also going into new areas where There are some good pockets of work. We don't want people to think, o here come to Wh, they're muscling in on our patch. about us all sitting down and working together because we know There is very little immediate support available, but there is some really great counselling service. So let's work together and top and tail and make sure families get a real breadth of support Funding, as you know, is a huge issue We do get funding, but as we grow We also need the communities to help and come together. And when you're new in a community, you've obviously got to take time to raise awareness and almost prove yourself in these areas So I think the expansion's not going to be as quick as we wanted it to be But also what I don't want to do is grow really quickly, make mistakes and then have to reduce in size and let people down. So it's about making sure we do it in the right way. But Yeah, I think will dominance is about right. But it's really interesting because I do speak on international conferences occasionally And nobody has an immediate support pathway, many other countries in the world And weirdly, I had a message yester from Canada from a lady who'd lost her child u And she said, what do you have in Wales? What does Tish do? Be I left and had nothing and still haven't had anything So basically I T wish could be dropped into many, many other places if they could pay for it. So let's go back to that kitchen table because the scale of what you're talking about now, I mean, could you just give us some numbers about the number deaths or young adult deaths in Wales The first year I did this, I had thirteen. Daths come to me Last year we had over two hundred and thirty deaths from Wales We had about the same number from our phase onene who our bordering counties And then we had about fifty from the phase following that So we're growing hugely all the time. We've still got a lot to get. So in Wales, we are picking up at least seventy percent now of sudden deaths of these children and young adults because that's based obviously on consent as well In England, we've still got work to do to raise awareness of who we are. you know, we want people to trust us. so that's going to take time. but I think we've supported now over three and a half thousand deaths And when I say death, it sounds such co world word, but that's one child come to our organization so three and a half thousand families have been affected and we will support anybody in that ripport So we've supported many, many more individuals than that three and a half thousand and That three and a half thousand families, I truly believe would have been left with nothing if we hadn't have been there for them So at the moment, it is about proving our worth, proving what we do and actually trying to get the health boards, the police and crime Commissioners people like that to see that we're almost becoming a statutory service filling a gap that actually they should be doing and trying to get our position slightly different as a third sector organisation So when it was just You in at the kitchen table, how were you finding these people? How were you offering support? What support was it Did you have any idea of the scale it would go on to be? or were you just were you just thinking I need someone to help I needed to help someone. I think You know, I don't want to go too much into my mental health class probably for another podcast, but Noes this podcast. I felt like this is all my I'd fail pul In the early days, I had failed Paul and I didn't want to fail anyone else And that was my initial drive really was I'd let my son die I'd let my husband die wantan to let anyone else die and it? And our story didn't really get into the press in the beginning. I don't know how it didn't, but it didn't. people know. people you know, Wales is a small place, people talk. And then people just started reaching out to me saying I've lost my child We started having coffee together And I started becoming this almost counselllor and this support group person, but I was way out of my depth. And then I found a counseselor locally who I checked it was of qualified, et cetera And with the money that people had start throwing at me, Id just start paying her to see some of these families. That was that was it I just wanted to help someone, anyone And then I just decided that this memory box idea when a child died in a hospital, they could do something So I started talking to the local hospitals and they liked the idea And then people got a bit of FOMO in other hospitals and they wanted these memory boxes. started growing And when I delivered the memory boxes, I'd asked to see their family rooms and they were awful, some of them. So I used that bit of money to do up some of these rooms. And I did this all on my own as a volunteer really, to spending my own money for the first few years. And then I realized, actually there's something in this And I started getting a few more counselors And then I started just knocking on the door of the police and the hospitals and saying look Why don't you work with us? And obviously at the time, we were We were very little and they didn't want to And then that's when I basically stalked the health board of Cardiff and Vale and just kept saying, let's pilot something. C on And after a few years of red tape they agreed and the pilot was to success, one hundred percent of families of the nineteen pediatric deaths they had said yes to're supporting them. that as a model across Wales showed people what we did and they all wanted it. And that's now what we're doing in England And O obviously now we have more evidence and statistics for England to show what we do. I St don't really know how I did it I look back. My mum and dad drove me around a lot because driving was part of my PTSD as well. But I just think that I hope my kids and other people can just see if you believe in something. so passionately, which I did. You can't achieve it. I didnid't even know really how to well I certainly didn't know how to do a budget or a business plan or to keep my dad kept the books. two years on a spreadsheet and I'm joking the receipts were in a carrier bag All of these types of things, and then you start realizing and actually just ask Be actually people want to help they wanted to bring Paul and George back and they couldn't So all they could do was help me So a friend designed a logo, a friend designed a website People would just talk. peopleeople just wanted to help And now we've got fifty one members of staff. hundred and fifty volunteers five hundred therapists contontracts with police forces and hospitals across the country and Some days I wish I could appreciate the enormity of it because I don't But I'm just very lucky to think that life has turned out Okay And have you, I mean, people listening to You describe what you've done will be in aw of you But they' also be very troubled to hear you say, I'd let my son die, I'd let my husband die, and I didn't want anyone else die And they will sort of want to reach through their headphones or their speakers and go, No, you didn't and have a hug and it's okay has Have you worked on that motivation is your sort of guiding philosophy now a sort of gentler Find a message to yourself I try. I try, I think I'm very open about my mental health, like probably too open sometimes, but if I'm having a good day, it's great. If I'm having a bad day, Myself you know, despise myself still It's like a counlling session. And you know, people tell me all the time you didn't cause George' death he had pneumonia It's not your fault. I've hadper EMDR that really helped me You're quite vulnerable, you know, and it didn't take much to pursue in one way or another And you know, sometimes you feel You know, those friends who walked away from you almost seals the fact in your head that yeah this was my fault. And then when perhaps people ignore you in test goes because you're that crazy bereavave woman just seals again, that little bit of it's because of you. And I think for so long, That was what I was facing. It doesn't take now much. If if a friend ignored me in the street now Straight away's because I'm a bad person straight away It wouldn't be because that wass her problem, which everyone says, Well, that's her problem problem I must have done something I' then to spend days thinking, what have I done And I think that's something that has improved and hopefully will continue to improve. but Yeah, it's I think Grief is complicated because everyone thinks you miss someone and you love them. and life makes you it was sad And that for me is just the tip of the iceberg. It's what it does to you when you look in the mirror and you don't know who you are and you lose your identity. You know, I was stripped of being a mum of three in a two hours became a widow so quickly. I you know, I didn't go back and do my job, I didn't teach anymore I wasn't the same daughter as I was before. I felt I'd let my mum and dad down You know, I became a burden to my sister at the time, you know, all of these things people don't see that part of what a grieving process is. Yeah, it's a really is a long journey And it's a journey that I think I'll probably be on for the rest of my life Part of me wants to be I don't ever want to forget. Paul and Georgeith And how does it feel to have So much good come out of something so traumatic something that you would you know, Wish had never happened Yeah it must be a strange form of pride and contement but also You know I don't quite know what I'm trying to do sweet. Yeah. veryer bitterseet. You know, when people sort of congratulate you or say things like you're amazing or I mean in all of you. Yeah Part of you must think, Yeah, I wish I never had to be like that. Yeah, yeah, definitely. you know, inspirational things like that, you think, it's really lovely and everyone meanss really kind ways of doing it. but I didn't choose this. and I think things like when you get your awwards and I've been fortunate to get quite a few awards you're splashed on the papers and people locally think it's all amazing And you just feel like I'm being awarded for being bereaved. like it's weird. It doesn't feel doesn't make sense, but I think people forget then that you're still that broken person. know and recently having Prince William come into the house. Well I was going to mention Prince William coming to your house. You know, I think, well, that was like incredibly surreal and I think it will always be forever. and P people forget why he came to my house. And I think but I think that's That's good because The message was getting across, but also he came because I lost my husband And I think you know People react sometimes quite differently to things I know for a fact Jalousy But overver the years, I've had snidey comments of Oh another awward then is it? or I saw your face again on the newspapers and you're like necessarily choose for that. just trying to do good and that seems to be the consequence of it. And you just think goh, You're jealous. I've lost my husband and my son then Really I've got to say when I was watching the interview with Prince William as' the cleanest kitchen I've seen in my life. It actually is very tidy anyway. But the day before I couldn't get out of something for work, so I set my mum and my sister clean the kitchen for me. But what was really frustrating was the crew came and you allll know these things. they just then changed it all around, however they wanted to look a little bit. And my mum was like, Oh I cleaned that like really, really good. yeah. Yeah, they had to do all the cleaning. I had to clean my fridge out because he had to go in my fridge. Why did he have to go in your fridge It was like the weirdest thing. I had to ask him The future King get the milk out the fridge for me. All right I was so stressed about it And they told me this so I had to go in the fridge and clean it bottom Well, I know you've spoken about your meeting with Prince William a lot and there's lots of clips online if people want to Check that out. but what was the Did you sort of feel kindred spirit. in a sense, did you feel that connection that you might feel with any family member that you go and visit who's suffered a loss you know, forget the fact he's future king or whatever, but was it like one of the meetings you might have Yeah, just those who've ever met, it's just so easy. Almost too easy. you almost totally forget who he is because at times I just wanted to throw my arms around him because It was really emotive situation and sometimes you are a little bit hardened to it because you've lived it and you've spoken about it so much and he really got emotional quuite a few times, they showed the ones, but he got upset quite a few times. I just wanted to put my hand and I'm a touchy fey person and you're like, no you can't really do that. but actually We hugged constantly during the whole thing, which again you didn't really see. He spoke to my mumma, my children. and He just got out of the car and he just apologized for being late There was too much fog he couldn't take off in his helicopter came in and was just like, yeah, just like having my mate round, which was Lovely, but also sometimes you just like gotta remember, gotta remember. and I made him the worst cup of tea as well That would be my wor because he has ill grey. I've never made il grey before. Okay. And I put too much milk in it and look like it just looked like hot milk. And he was too polite to say, but they did have to take it off the table and colour it up and put it back on because it was just you couldn't drink it Extraordinary. Well I know that u Prince William has donated some money to Tuish to make you part of the National Suicide Prevention Network. Yeah, the Royal Foundation have donated to us as part of the network, which is amazing. But if people listening to this are, well, they can't help to be inspired by what you are doing. whereere can they go to to give some money to Tuish. Oh gosh, it would be amazing. Tish wW. twoish that's a number two. org. Uk More importantly, please just go on, look at what we do. You know, if you are in any of the areas that we work U we're come in We're going to go out all over England, but at the moment, if we are living in these areas reach out to us if you're struggling. It may not have been your child, but you may still be struggling by the effects of that. You may be a teacher, you may need some support as a police officer Just look at our website, raise awareness, share this podcast, talk to people about us. because there are families out there who have lost a child or an adult They don't know about us and could be alone in their grief and actually we could be there to help them So yeah, thank you in advance for looking and donating if you can. Well, Ranne, thank you so much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure to speak to you. Well, thank you so much for having me on. It really has been amazing. Thank you There go, that was my interview with Rhanne Mannings and I'm sure you will have found That interview incredibly moving and difficult to listen to at times, especially as Rhanne talked about the impact that grief had on her identity and how extremely negative thoughts can still come to this day Very quickly indeed what she has done I'm sure you'll agree is absolutely incredible and the amount of people who have had the support that she wishes she had had and that her husband Paul had give that to the community to an entire country to now move into England It's just the most Amazing thing to do with your life If you want to donate or find out more, Head to wish. org. uk That's the number two wish. org. uk.