Navigating success and reality testing

Hello everyone. It's John here, just letting you know that I have written a book It's called Thirst, twelve drinks that Change My life. and it's out now. In many episodes of How Do you Cope You'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol, and in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people Why did it mean some things felt better? and why did it mean so many things went wrong I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope? Meditation, physical pain, gratitude, trauma, and therapy There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest Thirst is out now, and the audiob book, read by me, is available wherever you get audiobooks from Hello and welcome to How do you Cope with me, John Robins This is the show where I sit down with special guests to talk about the challenges they've overcome and the coping mechanisms they use in their everyday lives Today's guest is author, poet, activist and broadcaster Scout Zopfia Bolton Since the age of eighteen, Sout has suffered from bouts of psychosis And in twenty twenty three was sent to prison after holding up a grocery store during a manic episode They don't remember the incident and only know it happened from the CCTV footage they've seen since since their release Scout has seen huge success in the broadcasting world Double gold at the Arias in twenty twenty five Best N presenter prison radio rock show best creative innovation for their incredible radio four documentary ballad of Scout and the alcohol tag But the accolades didn't stop there. They also won double gold at last year's Audio productduction Awards in the best new voice and sound design categories for the aforementioned radio four documentary Scout's book, The Mad Art of Doing Time was released last year And it's aar and compelling exploration life inside and outside the prison walls told through poetry and prose In our discussion, we talked about how Scout's mental health condition manifested itself. and how moments of mental health crisis can distract from conditions that have been present for many years We talked about their struggle to get the right care under the NHS. and how this exposed them to failings that the prison system was thankfully able to address And also how exploring mental health through poetry and radio has enabled Sout to better communicate their story. Before we get started, don't forget that you can now watch every new episode of How Do you Cope on YouTube Just search for How do you Cope pod And you can of course, listen to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts And whether you're watching or listening, please hit subscribe so you don't miss any future releases more information orr to get in touch, head to howdoucokepod. com Just a flag, this episode covers addiction suicide, substance abuse and self harm So do listen with care and if you need support, you can find links to resources in the show notes Let's get going Scout, thank you so much for coming into to How do you Cope today. How are you? Thanks for having me, An I. Good. thank you, John. Thankk you. Brilliant. I wanted to start by asking or maybe just making the point that When a mental health condition leads to a crisis or an event or a crime I think inevitably our eyes are drawn to the event perhaps away from the mental health condition Yeah And in some ways, the moment that defines your story wasn't actually the moment that defines your story. U If you see what I mean, it was kind of representative of many years of mental ill health So could you maybe tell us when you first remember your experience of your emotions or thoughts diverging from what we might call the sort of normal spectrum of mental health. I think I always I mean, right back to childhood, I always knew I was a bit a bit sadder. than my friends were They said, but You don't know as a child that what you're experiencing is not necessarily normal because you're a child and everything's not normal. I've got children and the way they behave is absolutely mad, you know. I think I knew something was really up when I was about seventeen. I took myself to the doctor and I'd been having Soort of suicidal thoughts. I hadn't got a plan or anything but it just starts to creep in as I thought I was having And then a stronger thought and a stronger thought And the thought almost had a voice. I hadn't yet started to hear voices, but it was almost like the thought like a character of its own. And I took myself well, first I went to the counselor at college And I said, this is messed up. somethingomet's going on with me. And then she said, you need seeGP and the GP did then what they often do now which is antidepressants, go home, come and see me in six weeks But the antidepressants, I hadn't been diagnosed with any sort of manic depressive illness yet And antidepressants are really, really dangerous for people. In fact, that's normally how they find out is what your reaction to antidepressant is and the way that they affected me made me realize, okay, something's really the matter. I don't think this is depression. I think this is something else that I didn't even know the name of byy the time I was sort of a couple of months into those, it was what I would now describe as manic Again, I didn't have a word for it at the time. All I knew is And this was even before any kind of substances that I was using illicitly had taken hold. I remember writing all over the walls of my sort of rented house with him I' like lyrics to You know, white rabbit bi Jefferson airplane. Those lyrics held a really special significance in my life at that time. I can't remember what how I thought they were special to me It's funny that they reference all this in Wonderland because that kind of does make sense But I was doing that in sort of a frenzy and Id become suddenly obsessed with I had to work out for like Five, six, seven hours a day And I stped eating because I didn't feel like I needed to anymore. I was too powerful I wasn't sleeping so I didn't to do that either and then I think I more knew there was something up by virtue of other people telling me Sort of the little interventions that your friends have where they sort of go hey like, hey, budd you need to go and get some actual help. So it was it was right back. So that's like twenty years ago yeah and we'll maybe come on to the sort of story of your diagnosis history later on because it says quite a lot about how the NHS tries to deal or not deal with people who have sort of complicated mental health problems cururrently you the diagnosis that seems to have settled and fit for you is schizzoaffective disorder. That's right, yeah. whichich you described as the divorced child of schizophrenia and bipolar. Yeah Could you describe how those two children like interact and how they manifest themselves in you Okay, so to really, really overreg the putud in with that metaphor I think like that sort of so with schizoaffective disorder you can have ressive type or the bipolar type and I have the latter. And so for me, the bipolar is like the primary caregiver. That's running the show The schizophrenia is like the Saturday dad. that just bobs in And then like, that's all my time is devoted to it. It's not constantly there but it does swing by. And so for me, it's like having bipolar disorder But psychosis is a much more prominent feature than it even would be in severe presentations of bipolar disorder. So Mood swings or something. they're the biggest problem in that they'll start even now on the right medication, I'll have Periods of six, seven months have just been really down U and then periods of elation are just a bit more than very happy and doing well and firing all four cylinders but sort of subclinical And they last three, four, five weeks and then that sort of fizzles out on its own But before I was appropriately medicated, that would look like Maybe up to a year of severe depression that will ostensibly end in a suicide attempt or at least the plans sincere plans, giving my stuff away tying up my loose ends kind of thing Um and then the and then the mania was would start off as frenolph or cylinders and then and then progress up to sort of embarrassing things like hypersexuality, not eating, not sleeping but then like, getting into debt spending a lots of money and then acting irrationally and eventually to the point of sometimes just babbling in coherence where you're almost delirious with this Euphoric mood And then the schizophrenic part of that is whilst all that's going on when it starts to reach a peak That's when the psychosists will come in sort of confirm it for you. So when the law mood is in That's when you'll hear voices. voice the voices that you normally hear because I do hear voices on semi regular basis. will turn become really nasty And then they confirm the mood. If you think you're worthless, they'll let you know that that's true And then with the mania If you think you're a prophet, They'll let you know that that's true via being the voice of God stuff like that that's you don't know if I described that well. Yeah Um You describe the progression of it brilliantly And is there something in terms of like medication or self care that triggers the beginning of that intensifying or is it almost sort of completely like a season arriving? It's funny you use the word season because there's a huge seasonal component for me at least And for a lot of people I've spoken to who are mad in that way For me, every spring and summer I will have some level of manic episode recent years, I've been lucky in that it's just been me wearing like bright curly wigs to my local bar. They know me they don't mind they're like oh, hey Scott. I says, you look great and just like glitter all over my face every day for a month or something because that's my look now and everyone has to respect it. and but being sort of extremely creative And then with the winter and the autumn, like with now I haveve been going through L mood Otherwise, it does feel to me at least to be completely random. It doesn't seem to really care much about what's going on in your life. Things could be going super well that you could be re doing really well in your career, for example, like I've had in twenty twenty five. My depression really doesn't care and it's not that it's not that there's any sort of emotional thing to do is sort of I feel like I don't deserve this or anything like that It is just a Why don't I feel good about any of this What's that about? And it's just it does sort of feel chemical to me. But with mania it's I I wish I understood what that what that was what that was about. I still don't know. How did alcohol and substances interact with those States those seasons of mental states that you've described Um wereere you able to know what was sort of you you What was being sort of created within you in your sort of blloodstream in your chemicals in your sort of balance and what was the result of a drug or a drink No, I had no sense of identity when that stuff was going on I think I thought I did. I think I thought I was u For a long time, I was like, Hey, man, you know, I've been getting prescribed all these mad drugs all these years Why not just do it myself? I always knew I had itt me to be a doctor. can't be that hard, can it? You know, I thought I had a good handle on it to the point where m substances of choice were prescription drugs. buying from Indianmacy pharmacies and like prescribing myself benzodiazepines Well, I've been having anxiety recently. I just take loads of benzos I know what I'm doing But in that, I did completely, you know, it's already hard enough to keep hold of your identity when you're being carried along occurrences of all these mood swings and things like that but then throw in Storing the drink and the drugs on top of it all I completely lost myself in the sauce And do you think it's possible to evaluate anyone's mental health. Yeah using alcohol drugs regularly No, and I think I did get sort of really angry when I wasn't getting the the care and things that are needed from the mental health team. and I'm still angry about that. Hm. I can see why on reflection they might have been hesitant to try and points Um maybe a different diagnosis or to try a different medication if I was always drunk or on something or coming down from something How could they have possibly known What was a symptom? And what was just a comeown or just a high? How could they have known? How I didn't even know. Yeah. So how could they have known? So I don't know I don't think they can Let's come onto your sort of experience with The NHS, you talked about how you went to your GP And basically the message you got was best chance for getting help is if this gets so bad that you get sectioned. Yeah. and They said, if you're lucky, this is what will happen and getting so bad by definition, what that means is someome crisis crime A significant event, a suicide attempt No one would take that approach with cancer or heart disease. They wouldnt say well, it's stage one. If you're lucky It gets to stage four, then we Let's wait until you have a heart attack. Yeah ye. And then we'll give you an ECG. Well exactly yeah Do you know why that is? and Can you sort of talk more generally about your experience of getting mental health support through the NHS I believe there may be still a stigma in that They might not believe and I don't like it. They might not believe there's something really the matter until it comes to crisis because It could just be that you want attention. It could just be that you're a bit of a drama queen because that's why they'll always ask. And I've been asked so many times, in a really condescending tone whenever I've been approaching crisis Has a relationship ended recently And it's like, no, I'm not doing this try to try and get a message to an ex boyfriend if that's what you' alluding to, which is what they're alluding to and Yeah, I don't know I mean, it could even be that we're so behind in what we understand about psychiatry It's always been my belief that with psychiatry, we're at least about fifty years behind where the rest of medicine is So maybe it is that they don't even fully get it. the amount of times I've been prescribed a a drugo or even spoken about things like how does electro convulsive therapy work? And the answer is We don't really know. this is how we think it might work. and that's That's kind of horrifying to hear So it could just be maybe a All of those things The fact is maybe they're not and I'll never know But it makes me think of like, those campaigns they have to get men talking about their mental health and to reach out be like a poster of a gas fitter or a builder with his high vs and his hard hat And there'll be a message about the importance of trying to get help if you're feeling very low or suicidal And I can't imagine guy sat in his GP's office in his H viz with his hard hat and his big tool belt going I never really talk about this stuff, but I'm hearing voices and I'm having suicidal thoughts and I'm feeling close to the edge. I would imagine a GP going This is serious becausecause this doesn't look like the sort of person who usually has issues with their mental health Yeah And do you think that's a gender thing? Do you think that's to do with how people dress do you think it's to do with class, maybe I think it I mean, on the one hand, yeah, it's a gender thing in a way that is harming men and women, people of all genders because of what we assume people accence their ggenders Beuse you wouldn't say to guy, oh, he's probably just being dramatic No, he's been a drama king. Yeah ye Yeah, that phrase doesn't really exist. Has your girlfriend dt you? Yeah, yeah, yeah you wouldn't say that I think you know, it's funny as well because I've always noticed that a lot of the people I know who've been diagnosed with emotionally unstable personality disorder It's just funny how we've all got Septim rings And we like to dye our hair different colors and the sort of clinicizing of being. differentere being an alternative that is therefore outside of a societal norm evidence of a personality disorder Well I'd not come across that term. and You know, I've done a lot of reading done. neearly a hundred of these episodes of this podcast and I'd not heard the emotionally unstable personality disorder and E a brief read of it does make it sound like it's sort of a medical way of saying they're a bit of a pain Yeah, a bit annoying. So could you tell us about your experience of that diagnosis Yeah It didn't, I wasn't ever formally diagnosed and I already had a long standing diagnosis of bipolar because I'd been through various services with with the NHS since being eighteen because of my first psychosis when I was eighteen And we sort of settled on bipolar and that was right. and I was taking lithium and stuff like that, and it worked so well And then I hit crisis and I didn't It almost felt as if I didn't have the crisis in a ladyli enough fashion, or it seemed that the crisis did just so happen to coincide with the end of a significant relationship. and it was like ah. We've got them. But I was never formally assessed for it I remember M had been allocated a new care coordinator and she seemed quite obsessed with E UPD and that she spoke about it every Time we met And I remember saying to her You're going to try and get me diagnosed with EVD. I can tell because she was also trying to gently phase out was talking about bipolar disorder as well. So whenever I would speak about having manic symptoms She would say, Well, it's not always mania when you feel like that. And I remember thinking, whyy are you trying to invalidate me? Yes it is because we know it is because This is how I'm always treated successfully for it. We know what it is. Let's not change, let's not change the game. And then it just reached me. I remember I noticed my careir was starting to drop off And I couldn't get appointments anymore with the mental health team who hadd been supporting me for years. and just something felt really off. There'd been a new psychiatrist introduced into the trust. And the one that I'd had for years, he was amazing. He'd retired and this new guy had come in who I had met once whilst I was in crisis So I wasn't Hello, sir. Good to meet you and extremely polite. I was help me like I was wild. I was desperate help me and then I finally went back in I remember I walked into the building where my mental health team is based And I said, I've been calling, I've been emailing everything. Why will nobody see me? I'm going to sit here in reception until the team manager comes out and speaks to me because I can't call up anymore and I don't think I don't think I'm going to survive this And he came out and said, you know, you really can't behave like this scout, you know And then he said, Well, the truth is, oh yeah, my medication had been reduced as well, which was he said the truth is you now hold a diagnosis of emotionally unstable. And as he was saying it I was like, I knew you were going to do this and it felt like such a deep betrayal. And I remember saying to him because we'd always had a good relationship. I remember saying to him, I trusted you And he just said, I think the meeting should end there. And that was that I was a nuisance now. I was no longer a person who suffered. I was a nuisance And anyt time I tried to get help after that I was just a nuisance, just shut up. call in us that even the way that crisis team speaks to you changes when that diagnosis is on your nes. You call in the middle of the night and you have what they view as a real mental illness like bipolar schizophrenia or something like that or you pour deer and they'll sign ps you to the h. Would you want to speak to a practitioner We can see if we can get you an urgent psychatic appointment And then when I was on the other side of it with this, what we later found out was obviously a misdiagnosis Personally, I think it is for most people who receive the diagnosis Um It was cold And it was, oh, just call your team. it was the tone would change And it just suddenly felt I was being iced out of all care and then I was iced out of all care So the result of this change in your care changing your medication. is that you had a psychotic episodes, would you call it? a period of psychosis? Yeah which ended with you robbing or attempting to rob a news agent Yeah. with an imitation firearm Yeah, it was a toy gun. Yeah. Sorry, it sounded more like a police officer than. Yeah, they called it an invitation fireum and I thought way and about. it's a toy gun. And I wonder what is your relationship with that event now maybe looking back from point in your life I still feel completely horrified U because sure, It was to do with my mental illness, I would never do I would would never, I would never commit armed robbery. We all know that about me. All my friends know I would never commit armed robbery until I did, you know um I feel horrified by it because The people in the shop were scared And those people were really good people. They were good to me. They've been kind to me over the years and I can never go back in that shop again. first of all because I'm not legally allowed But second world, even if I could. I hurt them. and A scared people and I had to go to prison. and it's not even the fact I went to prison. because when I went to prison I thought, off course I go to prison for this. This is something you go to prison for. I just had to accept it And I feel enormous guill. So much kind of good has come from it in that I not that in that I got the help I needed because that was necessary Fine, I don't like how it happened, but that was where I was going to get the help but was the sort of work I started doing with National Prison Radio and how that's turned into a radio career And here we are today I feel guilt about that because Well How must the people in the shop you know, if they hear about how well things are going, they turn I' readio for and hear my voice, how must that feel? So I feel guilty about that But then I also feel like I really love to give myself things to feel guilty about. I'd love to feel guilty all day every day. I often do So maybe I'm just finding more things, but I also think it's perfectly normal to feel guilty about committing a schedule fifteen offence So there is a lock. conflicting emotions there, ye. it's really hard to know it's such an outlier of things you could possibly do in your life You're never going to know how you're going to feel about it. It changes on the daily Well I read a substact today about shame and It was just sort of really interesting talalking about how shame is often when you judge a past behavior from a changed state. So You know, if you were to reverse it, if you were to look at you now from that point in time be You would feel the complete opposite. You feel absolutely euphoric and so grateful That's true. So sometimes I guess, is just a mental thought exercise, it could be quite useful. Yeah, whereereas back then if somebody said to me in a week's time, you're gonna to commit armed robbery, I'd be like, Oh probably. Yeah. That stacks up You start your book mad out of doing time which is fantastic. Thank you. It's Oh mix of poetry and prose. does so much to communicate so many different things about addiction and about psychosis and prison and rehabilitation and freedom, but also it's all perspective of this sort of very rich psychic landscape. And you can kind of tell that I don't know. Where does the poetry start and the psychosis end There's this really known. There's this never known. Yeah, there's this one you feel like they're actually inhabiting the same creative space in a way. Yeah. I mean that's often how it goes for me with writing poetry. They go hand in hand completely At the start of the book, theres you have your Psychiatric report, which was the judge asked to be made and Reading that is so clear, it's very well written It's very empathetic in a lot of ways and it sort of seems impossible to think. I'll send that person to prison. Yeah, well, it was written after the facts. And when I remember when I read that like it was that's a mixture of both The Crown Court report and the psychiatric consle in the prison Huh diagnostic report as well. So there's some paragraphs from him and some paragraphs from her and I think everyone sppoke to professionals and stuff did Kana say this should never have happened. They shouldn't put you here. And Yeah. and that's why I put it at the beginning of the book. first of all, it was a bit of like People are going to wonder where I've been. And I've got a this is where I've been. but also I wanted to say to the reader Okay, first of all, no bullshit. This is this is true this is a true story and I can pack it up with receipts. But I also just wanted to say to the reader This I need to put you in this world in without poetry put the poetry to one side before we get into poetry Let's just put this on the page with the realest thing I possibly can even though Reading that, I'm thinking This person shouldn't be in prison. Prison had a transformative impact on you in a and some negative ways, but in some very positive ways as well that you mentioned earlier What do you think should have happened to you likeike in an ideal world, and do you have mixed feelings about the fact that something that perhaps seemeems unfair to send the subject of that psychiatric port to prison In many ways, it was a beginning of a new chapter in your life. Yeah I mean, and so in sort of philosophical terms, That was like my dark night of the soul. It was necessary for my soul's progression If we're talking inerms of like should I have gone there and what should have happened I mean, without a complete overhaul of the mental health system in the UK, which is completely what we need what should have happened is when I knew I was getting early warning signs, which I' had therapy to learn to spot So when I raised the alarm and said, I'm becoming manic again or I think I'm becoming suicidal. and It should have been Just what they always used to do, which is let's get you in with the doctor and maybe try an increaseive medication. If that medication isn't working, we'll try something else in the meantime his three days worth of sleeping tablets I remember I was once on a psychiatric ward around that time And there was a woman He was unspeakably florriidly manic And she kept yelling up and down the wood. I'm on the acres of sleep deprivation. They should have given me some zopbiclone I remember thinking that's true though. If you'd have gone to sleep, if you'd have got some sleep a couple weeks of sleep. No, you wouldn't be here. it wouldn't have got this far. You might still be a bit giddy and you might still need to try a different medication, but it wouldn't have got this far But it would just need to be just early intervention, trust the patient. I should have been trusted So When you're in prison, your medication is refined and you come back. you sort of slowly come back to guess interernal reality And that's really clear in the poetry, the poetry gets goes on does become slightly more grounded Yeah. And I wondered what it was like to sort of come back to that self in such an unfamiliar place And I mean, it was Very Dream like the whole thing and it was brutal as well because whilst I was in this, um, alternate reality of prison I had lost my home and everything I had to start from the ground up. I'm only just now Moving back into home of my own next week, which I'm really excited about Um So I suppose it is like coming to whilst you'reuring a psychiatric ward. It is There's a grief attached to it, you know, because when you've been, even though if you did bad things in that manic episode At some point in that manic episode, you did genuinely believe that you were u that, you know, in my case that your life was So wonderful and amazing and you were so brilliantly famous that you were being broadcast worldwide because why wouldn't you be or you've believed that you are a prophet of God And to come down from that and have the realization, no, not only was none of that true I'm now in prison And I've lost everything It's it's a real, it's horrible and you don't have moments of p that often where you can really sit and think about that and contemplate on that because it's obviously a chaotic environment So it was it was very, very difficult and You have to you just have to figure it out And I'm grateful for prison for that becausecause I've never been so resilient in my life. I didn't think I had those reserves of strength You just have to figure it out you to find a way findind a way And I guess prison you know, looking at it through a really Optimistic lens is a real opportunity to have complete access to people at their moment of greatest need, whether that's full Detox rehab psychiatric care, diagnoses You know, you have a captive audience of the most vulnerable people in society who are in danger of doing causing the most harm in some ways Yeah was your experience of what prison got really right for you in your case because you've described it as elements of it's very positive experience U I was H. I was caught before my life ended, which it would have in some way it would have ended either by my own hand Or it would have ended by misadventure. I would have got written over or something whilst was thinking couldn't die so I was caught and I was glad about that att the time, maybe not. necessarily, but I'm glad about that And I do think what it did right was it did sort of say like, right? oh my go There's been some sort of psychiatric mistreatment and we need to we've got six months to in my case, we've got six months to rectify the past three years How are we going to do that And for me, it was, I think whilst I was there in that six months I had sixty psychiatric appointments Be that with the nurse or the or the psychiatrist or the prescribing nurse So I was seen a lot in no way would you ever get that in the community. No way would you ever get that in hospital? It's just not possible On a ward, you'll see a psychiatrist once a fortnight or he'll nip round on the world rounds and say how are you doing? plans to kill yourself? No That's that it did that and I had access to education So it gave me a sense of purpose a little bit and I could sort of tryry to piece back together in that way who I was because I'd spent so long not knowing. And in just sort of added art, you know, and I really enjoyed that I just I started to gradually into myself and Again, don't I don't think this is by design with prison, but I think because a lot of people when you go there, it of course it's the lowest point of your life when every part of you has disappeared and you're having to ut your hands up and say that's it, I'm done. I give up. let's, you know, going in there as a blank slate myself my whole self going in as a blank slate and figuring myself out again. I let go of so much anger whilst I was in that anger that I'd had about my childhood and stuff like that stuff I thought I was never going to let go of because I realized I just couldn't afford to be carrying that around with. I had no room for it in my life, in my new life that I wanted to make for myself I couldn't have that anymore. and Of course yeah, prison does give you time to think, because what else are you going to do? There's only so many times you can watch the chase in a day. It was your experience that Everyone there was having a similar access really benefiting from that sort of one to one support No, and that made me really angry I mean, that thing of like what' great for me but I noticed other girls weren't getting the same treatment. probably because Sometimes it's because they were still using and but also I think that wasn't that wasn't so much We can't get a read on who you are because you're still using, as we spoke about earlier on but it was a punishment Um I think there were some girls in there who didn't know how to advocate for themselves And at that point, I only knew how to advocate for myself properly because It was a real that it was desperation and I'd been I'd been in services for for years and years so I' learned And the other girls didn't know that And so many girls in there had a diagnosis of emotionally unstable personality disorder and they were treated as such And they were treated as nuisances. Why are you here? girles in there and I could have sworn that wasn't what was going on for them No, I and maybe they Maybe they didn't come across The way that I do, I know how to sort of be differenterential and stuff like that in a way that doctors like. You know, you have to learn to put that on a little bit And I did notice there was a discrepancy there, ye There's a very powerful line viewers where you said describeed many women once eager to die now far too angry to do so. Could you talk a bit about what means and Um, how you feel perhaps the system Yeah, I think you also said I'm now going to misquote this, but catastrophic diagnosis is to be female. L like that's That's the worst thing you've done. That's the reason you're in prison so many women in there. That was sorry, that was you said like something like the original offense was being a woman Yeah and prison is either reaction to abuse to addiction that's been used to deal with abuse. Yeah or fighting back against abuse. Um So could you talk about Witnessing that and your experience of that Yeah So I think So many women in there were in there, they were under Section eighteen in offence, which is wounding with intents. And it's because they' finally lashed out an abusive partner. and they'd sit and talk about just what this partner had done and how they didn't actually know that was abuse and the other girls would sit around and go, that's control. That's coercive control or You should never have hit you even once and stuff like that stuff that we all kinda know When you're in it, you don't really know. Um, and And finally they're dead enough and and lashed out in yeah, maybe a really terrible way that I don't necessarily condone, but I get it U, lots of women in there were in there the way they dealt with addiction. you know, to survive. so many women going in on the roub. Go and stealing in supermarkets and things like that Their boyfriends sit outside begging and they go in because they're less likely to be sort of sussed out because they're girs, you know, or they've been They've been working on the streets which is a female, very female way to earn money very quickly if you need it And they've been put in for that. And a lot of the times you'd think, why on earth would they put you in prison for this When it's so clear it's desperation, nobody chooses that life And I imagine It's different to male prisons because male prisons are categorized, whereas because so few of the prison estate A female They just sort of chuck you all in together You'll figure it out, you know, amongst yourselves Um, I can say honestly There were very, very few women that I was aware of in that prison where I saw This is a bad person. They've done a bad thing. Those people certainly existed And we all knew about them and you know, the worst thing you could do was her children, But even then if it was like hurting children in the sense that you were neglectful because you were unwell Even people would get that, we would have the empathy for each other. we would dig deep and find it for each other So it was just it was just a lot. and as well with these diagnosis, so many women with this diagnosis VUPD not getting the mental health help they need So they so they would There would be a cry for help Now, my crime wasn't a cry for help in that I had no real awareness of what I was doing Some of the girls were Do cries for help buy like trashhing the place, like doing doing some violent acts which was to scream, help me because they've already been They've already been calling the numbers doing going going through the right channels to get this help. and help's not come. And then so they did something really big to get the help And now they're here. now they're the bad guy. And it made me so angry the other girls were really angry. And when they were not angry and we'd sit and talk and Id say, No, you should advocate for yourself thenen I would make them angry and I'd be like, I'm glad you're angry Now you can do something with that. you know I was happy about that. Is that terrible to say making a bunch of prisoners angry, but It's good to get it's good to get pissed off, sometimes you should be You should be pissed off when you're being treated badly And I think it's really important side to that mental health message of, you know, just speak to someone, just reach out, we should talk more It's true. Time to talk. What about? It's time to do something. Yeah. There are an awful lot of people with very dire need who have T time and time again reaching out and calling the numbers and speaking to someone and hammering on the door faith play in your mental health and incarceration because it's It's clear reading your poetry that there is sort of a religious element, a lot of the things you're describing are sort of drifting in and out of religious practices or observance And I wondered if it was helpful to have another sort of compartment in your brain to go to Yeah, like a room. Yeah. Yeahah It's quite strange because my faith can also play a big part in my psychosis But I'm able to discern the difference between my normal religious belieelf and practice which is I would never think I was a prophet. U I would never think God was talking directly to me and only me, you know. But I have thought those things would have been unwell. um When I was in prison, did you know when you go to You go to fellowship meetings and they always say things like You need to give yourself over completely to God I used to say to people at meetings, tellell me what that means and I'll do it. If you can even write me a step by step man, and I'm not talking about the twelve steps, I'm talking about this bit in particular, because I was really jealous of people who would say Hey, I just gave myself over to God and I'd just sit there think, No, you haven't. That doesn't mean anything And then I got to prison and I had to give myself over to God in that I had to think You know what? this is obviously part of something. is this almost feels out of my hands now. It is out of my hands. I couldn't be less in control of the situation. So I had no option but to just sit back and let All of it happened And everything just started to slide into place the way it should and it didn't look Like how I wanted it to look And I remember a rabbi I had years ago said to me There is a blessing in everything. You don't have to like it That's so true for me at least is you can find the blesson in things years after the fact if you want And you don't have to like how it looked at all There will have been something If you can take something from it, That's a blesson, you know And for me the whole situation, I remember I would go to I was in touch with the chaplain in the prison She was amazing And she would let me go to the the chaplain on the chaplain st say on the prison site Every Saturday morning to pray for Shabbat of my own in a quiet room and she' adjusted off like the one Torry they had So Oh, we haven't had we haven't had a jube before. had a jue. So yeah, I felt I felt very special. not bit Having that space alone to pray and just Just having that belief because I had no other option but to lean into a faith that luckily I'd already had It wasn't something that just arrived that I had to get when I was in crisis, which must be over I totally see why that happens and it's so beautiful when that happens. But that must be so overwhelming to like have to get to the grips with the fact you've got a faith now. and like how am I going to do this faith? And I'm also dealing with this crisis. So I was lucky in that it was sort of bedded in already But it was the it was the most close to my faith I've ever felt And it's ironic because that's the least I've ever been able to observe the few the fewest rituals I've ever been able to do didn't I wasn't able to attend any services and yet That was the strongest the bond had ever been. And it sort of made me realize genuinely doesn't matter where I am, I can make it someome kind of home So in prison you start working for prison radio. and present presenting a show Yeah, I was presenting a show called Djau And we writing more in prison than you had done sort of in the months leading up to going in? Yeah, I'd had a real creative blog Um, I kept having ideas for manuscripts and then I'd write ten poems in there This shit and abandon the manuscript, you know, slash the canvas. Um And it just I couldn't put anything coherent together because I was just too ill None of it was coming off. and then the poetra I was right and wasn't really that good because My head was all over the place and This sort of a sweet spot with mental illness and creativity where you can be just mad enough. and the art is amazing but you get too mad and it's just awful. you can't. put a thought together and so I was right in in prison just sort of as something to do as something to just to keep going and again, remember who I was and who I was as someone that loved writing poetry And the chaplain gave me a notebook, so I was just writing down in there. and as it was going, I was thinking This is good work. I haven't written like this in such a long time and This is really it's not as it's not like that insane stuff I was churning out back on the outside and I like this. this is work that I actually like. Kpt going with that. yeah The result that s creatively the result is the mad art of doing time, but also radio four documentary called The Ballad of Scout and the Alcohol Tag. Yeah. and It's an incredible piece of work It's not It's not like a documentary in the sense You sort of imagine in your head, but it is conversation between you and a producer you and the alcohol tag Yeah The alal Tag and you and there's you use poetry interspersed in that story sort of bring us into a world of that and Let's talk about the alcohol tag I think it's really interesting. you talk about it in terms of like a mother's bond with a baby sort of becoming. becoming part of the same organism in a sense. Could you Could you let us know how the Alol tag came about and your psychological relationship with it The alcohol tag, I asked for it from probation because I'd been hearing whispers on the prison aven knue Theys were getting released with this alcohol tag and I was told that it's something that whenever you It takes a reading of your sweat from your ankle every half an hour. And if there's any alcohol whatsoever in there There's no excuse They don't care. you're back you've been recalled. Don't swallow your mouth wasash Do' swell your mouthwash, yeah um O drinking hand sanitizer that girls in prison used to do that So I thought, you know what? I've been in prison now for six months and I've maintained sobriety in that time This is the longest I've gone in forever. And this was like, I think And I'm still in sobriety now. and I think this is My fourth or fifth try. This is the last try I can't You know that I've got many relapses in me, but I don't have one more recovery left in me. That's where I'm at And I thought, I can't blow this I need to stay sober if I can just buy a bit more time bit more help and I thought that tag's going be going to do it. That'll be the thing I hope because I've just got out I'll be in a new city. It'll be spring I'll be celebrating I might want to be a And I might think, Hey, I've had the time in prison. I've leared lesson I'm on the right meted. I' have a drink. What's? What's one little drink? and And I just didn't I needed there to be a very real consequence. would make people angrier at me than they ever had been before. somethingomething where there's no excuse So I asked for the tag. I needed just that extra bit of time So and And then that's when the people I'd worked with in prison, the Nationalrison radio, we stayed in touch when I got out. And they said, how would you feel about king talking about this We like to cook this idea up then you'll pooetry, you give the ankle tag a voice. and it reflects on its history and its relationship with you and former Wearers of the Tag Yeah And I wondered likeike if you could I just had this idea of being able for the wearers of the tag to record messages that the tag would play to the next wearer I b' a champ it's all going to be alright, man And I w Don't do it. If you could record something to go on that tag that the next person would play say in their hour of need or when they put it on or where they were tempt to buy a drink What would it say to them? if that tag did have a voice It's really hard to not just out recovery slogans. You didn't come this far to only come this far I think I don't know what I want. I wouldn't want to be harsh because the The way the tag was to me in my head wasn't harsh. So it'd be something really loving mayaybe just I love you, you know, because what if that person has got out and they've got no friends and family I'm part of you and I love you, I think What was it like when you took the tag off gross is gross under that. That thing had really been living on me it was a relief but I didn't feel in any way frightened. I thought I would feel immediate anxiety or I thought the anxiety would catch up on me I thought I'd be scared to walk down the booz aisle and The tag came off and I started going to meetings I don't still go to the meetings because I feel okay now without them, but if it ever gets sort of really bad, I'll dip back in. But I thought right now is the time to really do the work So how long have you been sober now Two and a half years. Wow, fuck, I didn't realize was that long ago. Amazing Wow age And how do you how so you start making the documentary, I think it's like three weeks After you come out, the prison Oh god, yeah, it was really soon. And had did that always been the plan or was that now sort of Did you devise that when you were out It was when I got out, we just they got in touch. we had a conversation. It was initially, how would you feel about I think My colleague Ellen had an idea that I was going Inview someone on the outside you sent me Zoom mic And I felt I felt really fancy with this piece of You know, the specialist radio equipment, you know and then that sort of led onto a different thing like, o no, how about if we did something different happen? Well, how about Scout? How about if we did this? And I just thought, yeah, okay And then this and then poetry came into it. And then I was the one that said, well, what about music as well And then we and then we just started to work together as a team and but yeah, it was really soon after I got out and it was good because I was living in this they call it an approved premises And it's essentially a hostel I put you in And they've put me in there because whilst They were happy to release me It was under the conditions that someone was going to like watch me take my medication, which is totally understandable for a few months so it It gave me something to be getting on with whilst I was there because I was feeling pretty miserable about being there So yeah, it it was good. It sort of it was then that I thought, you know what? I really do feel like Even if it is just this one documentary, I feel like I'm working towards something. none of this has been for nothing even if it if it ends here. that's It's not been for nothing And a lot of your psychosis involved thinking you were very, very famous or in a film Yeah. So I think you talked about how when you sort of held up the news agent and had the Ty gun. in In your head it was like part it was like the big denumemon of the film or it made sense for the heroine to be doing that. Oh God, yeah Yeah So Have you sort of had slightly triggering moments as The documentary has won awards and got acclaim and people are talking about you. You're being pointed on stuff. Can I tell you Dick and Dom? That was the last two words I was expecting. I was triggered by Dick and Dom Stick and domit the Arias I told them that joke and it didn't land. It did not hilarious I think I said, Oh, look, it's Dick and I' under Red carard. and they were just like But then cameras were rolling were fine.ight. No, they were saying to me, Wow scout, so Tell us a bit about, you know, you're here because you made a documentary about psychosis. What's that like? And I was like, it's like this. Yeah, yeah. It's like this mate. Um It was really weird because I might all of a sudden on a red carpet chatting to Dick and Dom. there's awards there, Everyone's dressed up all nice And then people are coming up to me at the IEs about new opportunities. it was happening really fast I remember sinking First of all Thank fuck I don't drink anymore. Yeah. Because if I got pissed tonight, first of all, I would blow it But second of all, I'm inviting illness back into my head. and this is a very delicate time for me. But second of all, I thought like, I've just got I've got to really hold on tag because I've just got a feel in This is going to move quite fast and the only control I'm going to have over this is by completely dipping out and I don't really want to do that because I've waited a really long time for my life to start And if it's starting now, I'll go with it and I'm happy I'm happy about this I'm going to I'm going to have to really do a lot of reality testing and self care in the interims of whatever's coming up because I don't want to get ill again I don't want it to be that there is there is a very keen irony to believed that people were hanging on my every word because I had something important to say about my back very dreary normal life And then all of a sudden This all happened And then we won the R's door about it And it was just like, well, Well have I don't know. I still don't really know how to pass that. and if I were Optimistic I'd say, well, this's manifestation, isn't it Bshi manifestation If I was any less privileged, then no it wouldn't have been, it wouldn't have worked out like that But that's a different conversation and It is really strange. And I have do I do have to do a lot of reality testing. I have to check in with my friends and say things like First of all, have I started to act like a knob I start to wr like a know, I need you to pull me back down tos earth and say things like, didid you know, you're not actually famous? You're just doing well at work at the moment but second of all, I have I have sort of said things like I'm not wrong to feel excited about this, am I? or I'm not like this did happen the way that I perceive it happened And so I'm lucky that I've got a strong support network that are able to sort of let me know what's real and luckily I've not been wrong yet, which means I'm doing well on the medication Well, I think that's a fantastic note to end on. Thank you so much. Thank you for giving us your time. It's been absolutely Fascinating conversation Join us for the grratitude list Thank you so much for joining me for my discussion with Scout Zophia Bolton, and I thoroughly recommend their book, The Mad Art of Do Time, a fantastic collection of poetry and prose deealing with their time in prison. And also the radio four documentary, The Ballad of Scout and the Ankle Tag is a fantastic piece of work It really is incredibly well put together and I can understand why it won so many awards Scoutt will be joining me again on Thursday for our bonus podcast, The Gratude List. where they'll be taking me through the five things they're grateful for. If you want to get in touch with the show, then send your thoughts, reflections or questions to Hello at howdocokepod. com I love to hear from you and we do sometimes record episodes where I read from your correspondence.