Parenting and Breaking Generational Cycles

Hello everyone. It's John here, just letting you know that I have written a book It's called Thirst, twelve drinks that Change My life. and it's out now. In many episodes of How Do you Cope You'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol, and in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people Why did it mean some things felt better? and why did it mean so many things went wrong I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope? Meditation, physical pain, gratitude, trauma, and therapy There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest Thirst is out now, and the audiob book, read by me, is available wherever you get audiobooks from Hello and welcome to How'd you Cope with me, John Robbins This is the show where I sit down with special guests to talk about the challenges they've overcome and the coping mechanisms they use in their everyday lives Today's guest is the comedian, writer and podcaster, Suzie Ruffll. Susy first performed stand upp comedy whilst at drama school in London And she's taken multiple sold out shows to the Edinburgh Festival and also appeared on many different TV and radio shows She's the host of the podcast's Like minded friends with Tom Allen Big Kick Energy with Maisie Adam, and the solo offering out with Suie Ruffle, where she interviews inspirational people from the queer community Last year, she released her memoir Am I having fun now? And the book covers, amongst other things Her lifelong journey with anxiety her struggles to understand her own sexuality and her journey of both coming out as a lesbian and becoming a parent The paperback of Am I Having Fun Now is out on the twenty eighth of May and in our conversation We spoke about how Susie's anxiety manifested in childhood H stand up comedy provides relief from her head And what lessons she's learned from becoming a mum But before we get started, don't forget that you can now watch every new episode of How do you Cope on YouTube just search for how do you copePod And you can of course listen to all episodes wherever you get your podcasts Do hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode For more info orr to get in touch, head to howd youcophod. com Well, it's a very warm welcome to Suszie Ruffle. How you doing, Suzie? I'm good thans, John How are you? I'm good. Iven've seen you for ages and I love your shoes. Oh, thanks. And I'm wearing socks that were given away free for a gig we've both done. Yes, Lftorama. Laftorama socks, the worst named gig in the UK. Yeah, G great gigs. Ver very nice gig, terrible name And I've just finished your book Am I Having Fun Now? whichich I absolutely loved. Oh thanks And I thought your description of childhood Anxiety was especially like evocative And I'm really interested in how people I've spoken to about anxiety and OCD There's like this sort of Venn diagram of childhood thinking and anxious thinking. Like there seems to be an overlap between donon't step on the floor because it's la and if you step on it, you'll die And then you talk about if I don't outrun the bus, my m will die So I wonder at what point for you that world of childhood imagination and anxious thought sort of moved from one to the other Because if you went you if you said to someone, oh, if I don't outrun the bus, my mum will die, they would think Oh there's maybe something going on there But if you said Oh there's a monster in the corner and if I step on this cushion he won't get me. Yeah they think that's a child. Yeah. I think that it happened around the time that my grandfather died. I know, you know, I was close to him as any sort of six seven year old can be to her a grandparent that they see once or twice a week. you know, but I think the the thing that I realized more in that moment was People doubt me peoplee die and That means I might die And that means my family might die and I mention this in the book, but the night that my grandfather died, I was staying at my friend's house And in my child brain Um, I decided that it was my fault that my granddadother died because I was staying at a friend's house becausecause I was having fun, I should have been at home and H I been at home I would have stopped it. I would have stopped the cancer. And You know, you I mean, I'm noticing this now with I've got a six year old and They make sense of everything through stories And so that was a story that I told myself. I decided that this was why This terrible thing had happened. and so then it was my job to make sure everyone was okay. And so whether it was flicking a lights switch on and off, whether it was out rununning the bus, whether it was climbing up the stairs without touching the carpet and just going on the banister And it was almost like, well, if don't once I had thought of it, if I don't do it, then something terrible is going to happen. so I need to do it and I need to do it quick. And I would say that's something that's still T, I remember when I was opening for Josh B it come could trend both of ours Iling on tour like I said O tour, sorry. Yeahah when I was on the road with him I remember once he said there was a pingool table backstage. And said if we don't to Handrea,abeth you' have b gig I don't know when it goes from like that sort of fun, playful thing to I'm going have terrible tight if I' do this or that thing And which I don't do that sort of thinking so much anymore, but actually Three weeks ago, I had a real anxious dip, the first one I've had in ages Um which was a particularly hard one And one of the first ways that I noticed it was coming was that I started pressing on my door once I'd locked it And I said to Alice, my wife, I said Oh, I've started checking everything I think I'm going I think I'm like The anxiety is really coming and then it came as like a whoosh and it was bad for about four days. and then it and then it sort of disisted it again and off it went So is that like That example of the ping pong table with Josh That's like a sort of Almost like a fun childli challenge. Yes. Whereas is anxious thought more of a threat? Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. that's It's I think how Josh would have seen it and indeed how I saw that I didn't think I was going to have a bagg if would do a hundred. That was just a playful thing that we were doing. I think it's interesting how I'd never thought of that until you said about the monster in the corner And I don't know when that moment flips. I don't know whether it's excitement and fear and what the two things can be. but It's certainly something where I've tried to contontrol Do you think all anxiety is a fear of death Some people do U you say that in that if you sort of follow the thread of each of them at the very end there's some kind of fear of either dying ourselves or people we love dying. I think more people we love dying But ostracisation from the people that I love I don't know that I'm scared of dying but then I've never had a near death experience and I've never had an illness. U that's a huge claim. you think? You've never had an illness. What like a serious illness? I've never been hospitalized for an illness. Oh no, I'm notes we need to I don thinkt it doesn'. Yeah just Yeah Covid didn't get me. You just manifest good health. Yeah, and I think if you don't, that's on you. Yeah. No, No, I've never had like a serious illness. So Be I don't know that whether I would feel very frightened then I'm sure part of me would, but It's always been threats around other people S going wrong, something And then there was a period where it was me saying the wrong thing or me doing the wrong thing. I think I read Jo Ronsson'surg. You've been publicly shamed when I was in a takeular de in my mental health. And I think that got in there in a way that was on help That's interesting because I've got I have had big portions of my life with public shaming anxieties And I found that book quite helpful Once I'd been through every single tweet I'd ever sent and deleted all the bad ones. Sure. So I did like a sort of screening. There was only actually one that I deleted and annoyingly it was right the way back at the start, so it took hours to go through them all but a bit like a sort of political party screening a candidate Tell us about your social media checks. Okay Um This is when the anxiety has really taken hold what I've posted. then I would check what I've liked then I would check anything that I've commented. and make sure that I've not said anything that could be misconstred or there's not like a spelling mistake that could be whatever, like and also make sure that I've not Um I accidentally posted a picture of my child, which I wouldn't do because my phone's set up so that those photos go into a different file that The the line short of it is I can't really do social media And when I do is good I have someone that helps me with that. It is an anxiety machine. And when are you doing these checks? Like at midnight? Yeah which is I would say bad time look at your phone. Definitely. and a bad time to be asking the question, haveave I done anything terrible just before I turn. But do you find what's your relationship like with social media So When I was drinking, it was Ver much. first thing I would do in the morning, check Twitter my texts, check Instagram, check Whatspp, I haven't done anything terrible I haven't got into some argument becausecause you would have done them when you were drunk. Yeah, but I never did had N. I remember once sweeting walking the stumbling up the stairs hammered And there's this big argument on Twitter about furlough And I tweeted something about like I think it's about Liverpool furlowing their squad. So using government money And I made some comment, I think I was probably saying like, Ohh it's fine, isn't it? And everyone like piled on. I immediately deleted it And that's like the That's as bad as it ever got. but still the daily checks would have to happen because you're Like you're missing parts of your memory You think what awful thing have I done? And you talk about the fear of What if I posted a picture of myself nude whichich is such a great anxiety to have. becausecause it's sort of impossible to do. Yeah, totally. And I't I'm also not someone and no shame Ionmestly would it takes photos of myself, dude. so I know those photos don't exist. But then I'll go like, God I was texting someone while I was getting out the shower. What about if I orr listen to music sometes from my phone in the shower aboutout an accident, I turn on the camera is a spyro I have a very strong memory when I was a kid watching Why Don't you, which was a kids TV program from behind the sofa when I was getting changed out of my pajamas so that they couldn't see me naked through the telly. Yeah I wanted to sort of play a hypothetical game. He Okaykay, go for it So say someone has hacked your phone Yeah or somehow you have accidentally posted a picture of yourself nude or a picture of your child or giving away some person like your long card number Is there a chance that the reality of that situation is actually less stressful than the anxiety about it. hundred percent. Yeah. one hundred percent I think the fear of of what if is far greater than Oh this thing has happened and now we deal with it Because you can do something about it Totally It sort of resolves Yeah Yeah And that's That's the thing that sort of when I'm not going through a phase where I feel anxious, which is like today, I'm in a pretty good place Um I can see I I know that I would be able to cope with these things when you're in a bad headspace, it's hard to see the wood for the trees really Stand up. seems like an unlikely profession for someone who suffers from anxiety and yet I would probably say quite a high proportion of people who do stand up have like a higher level of anxiety or more frequently anxious people than in the general population. Why do you think that might be control I think that When I'm doing my cchets I don't feel, I feel a bit of nerves, but that shoulds just because I really want them to have fun. Um I feel I'm in control I know the show. I know what's going to happen. The lights are on me, I'm amplified. I'm controlling the situation. I mean, I have I do do crowd work U Only as much as I want a day U I think that's part of it I also think there's I guess not all people with anxiety, but for me there's like a compulsion to talk about stuff and to talk about it in a public way sort of feels u radical U Is it radical or is it just the sort of thrill of a feeling talking about stuff, I think. but I don't I don't know. I think that Because that's something that's been asked with me before. like why Why do you stand up if you feel so anxious? but I never feel anxious about stand up? I never feel anxious about going on stage. I feel nerves, donon't get me wrong. Um I felt anxious when I've done TV before and I've been on panel shows and I've like got in my head and been like, I haven't said anything for ages. and then I feel then I felt anxiety and I've left studios feeling like God, I didn't enjoy that and I don't know And then obviously when it goes on T telly, that's f Um, but I don't know that I've ever felt that going on stage. I enjoy the liveness of it I've sometimes wondered if who are more prone to anxiety and sort of catastrophing are spending so much time rehearsing in their head that you're actually It's almost like you're refining and refining what you think and feel about things. so that then performing it is almost like Smost like life is a dress rehearsal for the things you're going to say on stage Yeah, and it enables you to come up with pros quite quickly. because You know, I'm so used to cross examining myself and the things I do from like very minor stuff to big stuff. being on stage and having to sort of improvise that doesn't feel like an more of an extra step Yeah, I think that I Um, that there There's a excitement to that as well because I feel similarly. I like I rehear things over and over and again in my head. But when you're in front of an audience You can't help but be in the moment And I think that's quite M. adddictive So it's like an escape from that head Hide. I mean I feel I feel very so When on stagageia for very sort of peace, there's sort of the one voice my head at that time and it's the voice doing the show. whereereas a lot of other times I'm You know, if I'm with a friend or if I'm H I find like really hard to concentrate on a conversation. if there's something else happening, there's just a cleanness to it. You can't dwell on anything when you're on stage.. You can't be thinking about what happened just a minute ago because you've gott to do the next bit. Suszie You're a lesbian. This is true. and even with you in your cute glasses, it's still true. in your in your book, you'd You tell a sort of Coming out story. It's perhaps less common to one I've often heard because I've often heard Um Gay people say Oh I knew since this event or I knew since I was this age or Whereas for you, it was quite a struggle I guess not just to come out to the world, but also to come out to yourself And you host a podcast called O aboutout People's Coming out stories and experiences and I wondered if that If that was common amongst the people you've spoken to to have quite a confused sort of teenage experience of of working out your sexuality with relationship to yourself, but also to the world as well Well I think The thing is we live in a really heteronormative society in the late nineties, early two thousands when I was having my first crushes That was even more so There's a fantastic phrase in your book where you des which I so identified with where you said everything was gay but nothing was actually gay Beause being at school in the nineties. Everything was gay. Everything was gay. Yeah everything It was the only pejorative really. Yeah, everything was gay And and that meant bad You know? And so that's all I knew And I didn't know Anyone was gay I don't know. I knew a guy that worked in the pub that my mum and dad sometimes went to was like a camp gay guy Perfect and nice. you know that. I didn' onion and he was kind of a caricature. I didn't really see him as a real person. He was, donon't get me wrong, but he put on this show and I guess in a way that was his way of defending himself being he was sort of using camp as a as his armour. and I I really didn't want to be gay really didn't want to be gay. I really tried to be straight. I put myself in situations that I really regret trying to be straight and I I found it Quite disgusted. with myself. I thought I was I thought I was disgusting and I I feel really sad for that version of me now I remember I remember waking up in the middle of night and throwing up and years later likepe sort of realizing Oh that only happened when I was saying dreams about women It would like literally make me sick. Yeah, I was and I think it's kind of weird now because I'm so like publicly lesbian. and speak about it a lot and as you said, a podcast about being out But that's because I want to change the narrative because I think I think less so now of people of this generation, but then I think You know, we're living in a world where it does feel like rights are being rolled back like just last year in Italy Lesbian mums, there can now only be one lesbian mum on a birth certificate say hij you. H you and your wife previously adopted together or U had a child with a donor You could have both been on the best ofget and now It's not just you can't do that d going forward. they've now retrospectively changed all of those birth certificates Say there for that rule It would be like if you took your child to a hospital And you weren't the parent on the thing you couldn't say give him a heart transplant, do this. Do do that That means you haveve like no, you couldn't travel with your child unless you had Like it just it's just to make gay people's life harder And that's happening now. That's not a story about you know, it's something that's happening in another time or that happened a long time ago. And so the reason I I like to share. Uh, stories is because I think that The podcast ends up being about queer joy and I still think that's something that You know, although we've got stuff like Heartstopper thingsings like that exist, which are lovely. there's there's still, um, Is there's still sort of work to be done And I think that I sort of make it for teenageen. You didn't ask me why I make the podcast, but I have sort of told you But it is something that has come up quite a lot um, that people feel A deep shame Deep shame And is that? because The world just assumes so many defaults about people. Does the shame come from a fear that I'm not that default and that default is also to do with sex to an extent, which is shameful enough as a teenager. Yeah And is it like, oh, I'm going to have to actually tell people about sex in the way that I wouldn't have to if I was straight? Totally. I mean, it's something that I imagine you haveve never had to tell your mum. favorite sex position. I love having sex with women,. Yeah. I I would never Yeah, you know, you'd never say like Oh, by the, you know, you don't need to say to her, I really like boobs. You know, you don't need to say that The weird thing is when you come out, you have to go Oh like I think women are fair and it's really Weirdly, I think This is very broad and people may disagree with me, but I have seen Hello, Peey, tr friends They have agreed to. Men find it easier to understand lesbian daughters. than gay sons and women find it easier to understand gay sons than lesbian daughters There is something, I think, in a male psyche, if they have a lesbian daughter guys man's never going to fuck her I'm fine with that Right And I think women canort and and there's you know, a long documented u history of gay boys and their mums understanding each other. But there's there's something there's Do you think that but also because Bad. I guess the sexuality aligns, I guess I deree I think so to a degree There's u I do think that it was it's it's the norm being different and it's And you don't wantan to be different as a teenager. And sex is embarrassing and then You know, there was the whole thing at school, like I didn't come out of school I'm But I was terrified that people were going to think that I fanciied them all the time. H I remember not long after I came out, I was about to move in with my friend Ruth And I said, Ted, do you still want to live with me? And She said, Yeahah, of course I do. What are you talking about? I don't care hated it This thing so big in my head that everyone's gonna to hate me. that I was going to lose my family. I wasn't going to have Any friends, I was going to live a really lonely life that I still felt like I had to check and I mean, she's still one of my best friends. And she thinks it's crazy that I ever asked that, but it's Um It was something that I really that I found very difficult. And I think it's important to share because You know, nine times out of ten people go, Oh, it's fine being gay. noob no one cares anymore. We're not to be gay people It's never gay people that say that Sper people that are experiencing life as a queer person. that will say, Ohh, it's just the same You can have kids you can do this, you can do that It's not because because A straight couple have never had to go, Where can we go on holiday that's safe for us to be a family? you know, should we hold hands near a football ground when that team are playing You know, it so it's You know, it's much, much better ice. Still a journey And you talked about like putting yourself in positions which you regret. in your book, you talk about how after your first lesbian experience you begin a heterosexual relationship to almost tryone Are you trying to convince yourself, trying to convince the world? For sure Yeah, I was telling him, I was like, is this is what you do And that was just That was just a, you know, that was just a blip And that must have been taken such a huge toll on your sort of interior experience of yourself and the world And was it horrible? I'm trying to imagine like, because I can't put myself in that position. N Is it as clear cutting your head as thinking Right, I think I'm a lesbian That's not ideal So I'm going to really just try and do this relationship that sort of the world will accept Or are you thinking, I don't really know what's going on here. so Oh no, I knew I was aian. I knew I knew I was attracted to women From like the first time I saw Kate Winslet in Titanic, it sort of changed my life. I just was in love with her. Have you ever had the chance to tell her that or get that message to her? No, I haven't, but Elizabeth Day did buy me a carbble cut out of her for the last day that is now in my office at home. Wow. There's a big carbble cut out of her on the red carpet. yeah I I just know and I had a really lovely boyfriend, such a nice man. who was so kind and so loving and so sweet and so wonderful. I'm so lucky that I ended up in a sort of eighteen month relationship with a man that was like that rather than a than have guy that was I't more pushy or more difficult or you know, whatever, but he was You know, really sweet and really nice. but You know, we did have a full relationship and so You know, I look back at that time now and think It's really sad that I made myself be that to do that. It was so Um It wasn't good for my soul. You know? it just wasn't good for me and it was You know, only years later and indeed, in the writing of the book and I wonder if you've found a similar thing when you start going through things there's things I've spoken about in the past on stage, but with standup, there's a There's a casualness to it. and then also in doing They lose their sort of emotional resonance because after a while they become the set. So you can talk about heartbreak, you can talk about grief, you can talk about mental health, but because you're performing it every night It doesn't sting you in the same way, but I found And I don't know I never type up my stand upp. It always just it's a different process for me. And so I found with writing those bits, I felt Re sad Really sad for that young version of me and u And it was interesting because my mum read the book and I was There was stuff in there that she didn't know and there was bits that I hadn't told her about and she certainly didn't know about some of the mental health stuff that I'd struggled with because I hadn't wanted to worry her. And now I feel like I'm in a place where I can talk about it because I feel like I've I've got over it before so I can get over it again After my momum finished the book, she said, I think it's really good by It made me really sad. Lots of it made me really sad which I h I found really upset in. I think it's always going to be difficult to read about your child in distress in a way that you can't like dive into the past and save them or help them in the way that you would do if theyd come to you and said, you know, I'm feeling this or I'm confused about this. So what would you Perhaps with someone listening who might be in a position where they're evenith know that their sexuality different to the one the world assumes or sees a lot of very queer positive stuff on social media that isn't to them in their life What would you say to someone who is in a similar situation to the one you found yourself in First of all, I think what you're saying is like spot on. I think you know, so quickly we can look at You know famous YouTubers, you know, I mean I'm talking about for like young younger people, but like famous YouTubers that are around in these fabulous queer lives and rainbow flags and rainbow families and all these wonderful things and what prides are like And then you go back to you know, for me it was I would see like gangays in Brighton living their life and then I' wouldd go back to Portsmouth and be like, G God I can't I can't be one of them U I think that It's like never too late to come out I would say so you don't need to come out by a certain time You don't need to feel like, o, I need to do this now. You need to do it in a place when you're safe when you've got people around you and if that's not your family, you need to make sure you've got that sort of support network as friends because someomeone reacting badly is really terrible because you And I and, you know, my mom and dad been wonderful There was a period where I really didn't get it And it was reallyady hard because they felt like they didn't know me. When in truth I was allowing them to know me better Yeah. And I guess that's like So it's the difference between keeping a secret and sharing a secret Yeah you can sort of view that in two different ways, Totally. And I think there was a period definitely where they thought I wish you'd just never told us because And it wasn't because of their homophobia, it was because they were so worried about what my life would be like you only have to look into like sort of lesbian literary history, where it's like you will be sad and alone and pineing for a married woman. Well there's an interesting moment in the book where you're talking I can't remember her name, but you're talking about sort of a An icon in Shbiz who comes out And as a reader, you're thinking, o, great, here's the example Susie needs the way this story goes. And then actually know the reaction to her makes you think, oh there's no re. when Ellen came out. Yeah. When Ellen came out, she and it was the puppy episode for her TV show and she came out and I think it was Helen Hunt plays her therapist and she just got I mean, the show got cancellled. she was kind of blacklisted She went back to stand up for a bit. Not that that was a bad thing, but you know, she's been this huge TV persona and this is like in the nineties when everyone watched sitcom You know, it's not like now when you've got a thousand streaming services on your TV, it's like they had the channels. and she was one of the main people on one of the channels and I You know, I remember her and Push to Rossi being, I remember feeling so excited about the fact that they were alive and then And then every they became like a punchline in late night TV show. and It was Ellen De Jenerette And it told told me that I couldn't be a lesbian and be an actress or be someone in the public eye I can't do that. That's People don't like that P peoplee don't like people like me. U So Yeah. and, you know, my parents were witness to that as well. you know, it's only it's not that long since they're being like, you know, the first gay kiss Money standers. y called Michael Cashman did that who I know he's been on my pod. He did the first gay kiss in East Eenders And the week that it went out, someone throughrew a breakthroughs window found out where he lived n't leave the hat. Like this is in living history. He's he's not, you know, he's I guess he's in his late sixties early seventies now but it's not It's not that long ago. Yeah ye. And you know, when I was coming, when I was realizing these feelings, it was twenty five years ago Um So there was You know, certainly now, I think that people it is much better, but there are still pockets where it won't be there are countries where it won't be, there are countries where it's getting worse You know, Farage said a couple of weeks ago You know, he doesn't think we should have We should legalized same sex marriage and that When he asked you we would change it he said, Well, I don't know, but I don't think we should have it I'm not suggesting re beforeform we're going to get in Jesus, I hope they don't and My life is allowed to be political b you know, even when it comes to Um I this whenever, whenever someone is trying to be a political leader or When we're getting a new pope It will always be what are their views on same sex people And it's so marginalizing to go this is what they think about people. They're a humanitarian They love this, they love that. They're all for people. Oh, by the way, they don't I that gay people should be able to adopt or have children and you It's It's a thing that is still discussed until it stops being discussed I feel like will still need to be talked about I'm re I just really hope that happens in my life. You talk about the impact of your mental health on your physical health. You mentioned there about earlier about being sick in the night. and you've also had really bad problems with your back, which have been related to your mental health And I wondered how therapy has not just helped your mind but also helped your body. Yeah. So could you maybe tell us about your experience with therapy, where it came in the timeline and what what sort of types of therapy you've experienced? Yeah, of course. So I When I was writing the book, it was the first time I really committed to therapy. I'd had it I did some bobs in the past, I've seen a therapist for six weeks or whatever and then And then I was like, I This is overwhelming And it was, you know, not long after I'd become a mum It was Um you know, after COVID, work was really up in the air. there were lots of things that I felt like I didn't No whether was coming or going and I found a therapist It felt like I mean, there's a lot of therapists in Briton, where I live and I How did you find them? Be I think that's quite useful for people to hear because it can be a bit of a sort of Google thing. Yeah. So I wanted to do a specific I wanted to do a specific type of therapy. So Iew I wanted to do some talking therapy, but I also wanted to do EMDR And so I knew that I wanted someone that did M EMDR. and I wanted someone that I didn't want necessarily a gay therapist, but I wanted someone that would work with same sex couples. Not that it was really couples therapy U Although Alice and I had done a bit of that when we were first becoming parents because I think it's really good. And not because we ever thought about splitting up or anything like that. It was like, how are we going to work this out as when there's like a third person in this because we have really worked out our life, how we're going to do it And we had like these lists of things that were Alice Alice has always been enormously You know, she's always had a good job, She' always done really well and she took a year off Um when my daughter was little and She was like You know, I don't want to feel like I need to ask for stuff the money. I don't want to feel like any. I was like, yeah, absolutely, totally agree. I was like, I never need to feel like anyone resents me going to work. It' like yeah, oK, great. And then we st look at all the things that could be like, hard. flash points and then ant that we didn't never really had those arguments, which was great That's a different thing that's when we had couples anyyway. So I wanted to do MDR. I wanted to rewire part of my brain. So people don't know MDR. You're sort of having talking therapy whilst looking at two different things. It's about your eye movement at the same time as sort of talking about things and having therapy, and you almost go into I mean, I imagine if my therapists ever listen to this, that's not what it is. But how I felt it is I wasn't in a trance as such, but I was sort of really deep in an emotional memory and u She was doing this sort of And how she does it is you have little buzzers in your hands. So it's like a pendulum, almost like one, two whilst you're having this memory and the way that I the way that we sort of spoke about it, and this is very much in sort of layman's terms But it was almost like it was, you know, almost like wiping away a memory. It was like it was Memory's the wrong word. It was just my emotional reaction to that memory I knew I want, I knew there was stuff about the disgust that I had felt as a young person in myself directly linked to my anxiety stuff feelings I was having as a teenager about not having many friends and about being gay and wondering if that was why and about the fear of losing my family, which never ever happened, but I really feared it. Even though I knew they loved me, there was just part of my brain that thought, what if And I knew that there were remnants of those feelings still in my body as a woman in her late thirties I knew I was still carrying around that friend cancellled on me I'd think That was because Of course I'm the kind of person people would want to cancel on someone hang out with me, and I knew that they were all roted down to fact that I found school really hard because I knew who I was and I was terrified of people knowing who I was And so the whole from when I was dropped off at school to when I was picked up I was putting on a show. I was putting on an act. I was thinking donon't let them realize who I am and That was all still around me and I can't be a really good wife and I can't be a really good momum And I can't be a really good friend and a good daughter and also have my creative pursuit of being a the kind of stand up that I want to be. when I'm carrying that that sort of self loathing. So I knew I needed to do something that was in looking back at how I viewed those moments slightly changing the narrative so that I could move through them so that it wasn't exactly what I go back to when I feel shit about myself It's interesting that when you were describing experience of how you felt at school, you're pointing to your body Oh So it's like because you could say that some forms of talking therapy might work on the premise that Once you link the fact that the person on the WhatsApp group doesn't reply or is cancellled to an experience at school. That's sort of the end of the job because you're like, oh, this isn't about the here and now, this is about old stuff, so it doesn't matter But I've certainly found that That's like the first step body doesn't hear that. bit logic. Yes. So the body needs something else to stop tensing up or to stop you know, holding breath in or getting nauseous or getting back pain or whatever. Yeah. So did you find that that form of therapy did sort of like release your body from the weight of those things. I think so, yeah. I think that I would often have a Thrapy session And then the next hour wouldd go on a really big walk. and just be outside And you know, just by myself for an hour or so and I found that I would process things And what my therapists would often say was like, o you're processing things when you don't even realize it. You know, go out and do, but you know, your brain's still working, it's still working through stuff. and It really helped It really helped and I really You know, of course there'll be days when You know the neural pathway of me not getting a text and feeling like that is really well worn. That is a highway That's had, you know, several million cars go over in its lifetime And so it is a less like I still have to say, Ny Now you look like that that' You know, it's I still have to sort of occasionally, not all the time, but occasionally remind myself where I go And that's just because of that. And I'm just noticing that Because I always get it confused EDMR or EMDR EMDR EMDR. We w one is one the music The electricDM, I think. Electric electronic dance music is it? EDM? Yeah. So EMDR? EMDR because It sounds a bit like a magic trick Yeah. It sounds It's a rabbit the. Have you ever had to start your Mac in startup mode where you press Ctrol pl P as it's booting? and you're suddenly in this world that you you existed? No, I've never done The hardard drive crashes, it's a way of like accessing underneath it's mad. And does it come up like the code. Well no, it sort of comes up like with your hard drives on there and then you can go in and clean stuff or recover stuff ' That might be a really unhelpful analogy, but because EMDR sounds a bit like that So's almost like a cheat code for the brain. Yeah Do you still have practical conscious tools you can use when, for example, you said you were noticed you were going into an anxious phase because you were checking the door Do you have stuff that isn't like a magic trick but is more day to day toolkit of stuff. Yeah I do This is something I've been doing since January, so since the first of January And so it was there the whole time that I was going through that anxious phase, but I do think it really helped U I do a lymphatic workout every day Now tell me more. Okay The internet told me to do it So u It's a thing to sort of get everything going in your body. So I I usually do it. just before my shower. And I mean, you dont need that information, but it's nice for tonight. you know, I want to give you a real picture So you jump on the spot bounce on the spot for a minute. then you do this with your arms for a minute. I'll you one arm up, one arm down for a minute. Then you do body wavave. So up and then like bend over and down for a minute, thenen you twist your torso for a minute Then you pound your arms for a minute thirty seconds each side Then you do golf swings. so you're swinging back and forth for a minute Then you touch your toes like left hand to right foot, right foot to left hand twisting your body as well Then you do high knees for a minute And then you do ballet so like a play A and stretch up and then play A back down for min and it's ten minutes I do that every single morning and the mornings I was about to say every single morning in the mors that I don't, which doesn't make any sense. I try and do that every single morning. Occasionally I'll miss it and I'll be able to tell by about three o'clock. Really? Yeah So what's the theory of, I mean, obviously it's tell it's a good thing to do getet up, get in your body. Yeah to be flexible, to move early But what's the sort of thinking behind what it's doing? what are limps Well, listen I'm not a doctor and I never said I was We've all got them. Y and it's good if they're ha their own little workout. I think it's about it's about, I think, detoxifying. So it's about your body moving in a way I think that by please may be incorrect. So go into your own research. But I think what it is is that by doing these ten movements, you sort of get a chance to move every part of your body. So the idea is that new blood is going to rush in, new oxygen. And so by the time you finish these ten exercises Ething will be warmed up and everything will feel slightly have been detoxified because the blood will be rushing around. Yeah, and that's like it's not woo woo at all because like pretty much every culture Every most religious traditions mostost spiritual traditions have movement as part, especially early in the day. Yes. whether it's you yoga or Buddhism or. Well this is from, I believe, Tai Chi. Yeah So that's where it so it's it's It's got its roots in Taiji, or indeed that's the roots of what like a Taichi practice is So you mentioned a couple of times that you and your wife have a daughter. Indeed whoo's six now? She is ye and you know, any any queer couple thinking about having kids? Perhaps it requires a more strategic approach, is thatair? Yeah that's very fair Um so what we none of us do it by accident. No. You know, you don't go We just stopped we just stopped using protection and saw what happen Because if we stopp using protection, it's It it's just friction. So lot of lot of lot of um planning. And probably lots of discussions about how and when How did that interact with your anxiety, especially when it came to sort of families Yeah, I think We Um, We spoke a lot all the different ways that we could have a kid, whether we were going to adopt, whether we were going to use a donor Um and We went to lots of different sort of seminars about how we could do it And I think Weirdly with the anxiety. Parenting felt like something I was so sure that I always wanted to do and I When I met Alice, and Alice' sort of I think in my book she's like the real hero of the piece.one someone from my publishers met her And they werere like, o my God, they're romantic laid, which we loved There's a steadiness to Alice that has helped my anxiety massively. And when it comes to parenting Being on her team makes me feel great And so I think that there was certainly There was anxieties that came up around parenting And I think peopleople that like I know like single momums and single dads have done it by themselves. and I think They're honestly superhuman U because I doing it in a really good team has I mean, don't me wrong, it's not easy, but being parents' a tough thing to do. You just You in yourself with hand. Let me just have a look No, there's nothing like. This is HD. Yeah, of course. I think you're good. Luckily, you've got a little bit stouble, s. Yeah, it's actually just more pen. Oh right U But I think, you know always being on that team has been really helped You know times when You know, I I really worry about her or I really worry about her future or the world's going to look like, but There's only so much I guess I'm I'm slightly more at peace with that because I'm doing it with someone that I really trust And with like is having a kid the ultimate version of The reality of finding you've posted a nude of yourself.. You're constantly getting to resolve the anxieties because you're constantly able to to sort of deal with situations Well I think as well as that the, you know great thing that a child has done for me and you know, I'd be the last person to say like you know everyone should to have a child and your life's not complete without it because I think people have wonderful complete lives child free. But The great thing that she's done for me, I think, is You know, you constantly get retries at getting things right You know, the thing that I tell her more than anything else to keep trying it stuff. You learn every time you make a mistake doing something, you learn something from it And that's a great thing for someone with anxious mind to remember Yeah, and both great advice for a parent and a child. Yeah, I get things wrong all the time You know, I and Id say sorry to her loads and I And in the right way, because you talk about in the book Yeah like good tactic for how to apologize to a child. Well, yeah, one of the things I wanted to do with the book was at the end of each chapter I interviewed a sort of expert in the area. And sometimes they're experts that they're psychologists or psychotherapists, and sometimes they're more sort of cultural experts like talking to Dolly Auderton about how to mend a broken heart and I I wanted to talk to a child psychologist about how to You know, I didn't want it to be like What want to do I want to do a chapter of a parenting book because that's not what I wanted to do but I wanted to talk about how how I I I've got anxious momum And that's not my momum's fault. She's just anxious mum and she had an anxious mum and I imagine My greatrandmother was anxious as and I want I didn't want it to be a foregone conclusion that my daughter would be anxious person. I wanted to sort of stop And so I wanted to talk to a parenting a therapist that works a lot with children Um about how to how to Tk on u their their worries and concerns without making them enormous and give and have to give my daughter ways of dealing with anxiety that maybe I didn't have and, you know, the only reason I don't have is that people weren' talking about this when I a kid. My mom didn't know what it was like to have M just thought was a bit weird, I think You know, she didn't know that I was struggling with her with an anxiety disorder And u And so doing things like gettingetting things wrong and then getting them right in front of them and you know, and apologizing was a was a big thing and how to How to just get all the wr things wrong that I'm going to get wrong, but how to do them sort of with kindness and then show her how to how to how making mistakes have really a good thing for children to witness you doing. Yeah, and the way that you 't remember the exact phrasing, but I think it's a useful It's useful for me. like how do you apologize to someone genuinely isn't to go I'm sorry I shouted, but you pushed me to the edge or you wound me up or you did this is to go I'm sorry I got it shouted. I got angry and I didn't deal with that in the appropriate way. Yeah. Um, And I'm sorry that that upset you. Yeah. like Don't leave little hooks and caveats with little bitouts in your apology You know, I think that, you know, growing up with a sibling, my brother and I do that all the time to each other. We never apologize to each other properly. you know, you know And I think Um You know, you want to You want them to know. you may not You know, I imagine. You know, at some point my daughter will have therapy because I imagine they all will, but Hopefully shell But at least she apologized in a nice way Well, Suusie, thank you so much for joining us on How you Co. That was a really fantastic chat to. was I don't know It was great. It's weird It's quite weird, isn't it? when you talk to someone that is sort of a friend in such a deep way feel very excited. It'specially when they' drawing on their face, as you talk. Yeah, you think is he enjoying? Is He's just giving himself. And Susie is going to join us for the grrate list as well, which I'm very grateful for too my chat with Susie, and I'd thoroughly recommend her book, Am I Having Fun now. The paperback is out on the twenty eighth of mayay and details about Suusie's current tour, The juggle can be found on her website