Accountability and Staying Sober

Hello everyone. It's John here, just letting you know that I have written a book It's called Thirst, twelve drinks that Change My life. and it's out now. In many episodes of How Do you Cope You'll have heard me talk about my relationship with alcohol, and in writing Thirst, I wanted to explore what alcohol means. Why did it mean more to me than other people Why did it mean some things felt better? and why did it mean so many things went wrong I also talk about lots of other things you'll have heard me and my guests discuss on how do you cope? Meditation, physical pain, gratitude, trauma, and therapy There's even a chapter about my bum and its relationship with Buddhism. So if that piques your interest Thirst is out now, and the audiob book, read by me, is available wherever you get audiobooks from Hello everyone and welcome to Howy Cope. This is a correspondence episode where I'm going to Read out some of your emails and share your reflections and answer some questions you've put to me. I should say that I'm recording this from home So if you hear the sound of a van door slamming, that's just a plumber helping a neighbour out. And if someone starts mowing the lawn, I apologize in advance. But I just want to say before we get into your fantastic emails and questions firstly, I have edited out some of the praise Otherwise it does feel a bit like I'm congratulating myself for forty five minutes, but I do really appreciate yourour kind words on This most recent series of How do you Cope and also have ask questions, I'm just very conscious that I am not an expert in many fields. so Where it's within my remit or my experience, I'll do my best to answer your questions But if I haven't answered a question, it's because I don't have the expertise to advise But I very much appreciate some of the things you've asked And we're going to begin with an email from Kerry This is in relation to Richard Osmond's episode. In fact, the first two emails are in relation to Richard's episode And Carry says D John, thank you so much for the wonderful conversation with Richard Osman. It was such a deeply visceral and moving experience to listen to you talk to Richard about food addiction. You said you went to therapy in your thirties because you were tired of weird behavior Could you tell us what those weird behaviours were and sort of where you're at with them now? Yeah, I mean I've spoken before and it's always an awkward thing to talk about about food addiction and behaviour around food and binge eating and you know, not anorexia, not bulimia because not throwing up. so just the overereating and trying to, you know control my life through food. So I'd had that for as long as I could remember. It was a huge problem for me and it was secret Very, very shameful and You know, all the other shames about who I am sort of were channeled through that I've been a food addict since I was about seven or eight, similar to Richard And it's something I continue to manage with varying degrees of success into my early fifties I've gone to great extremes to get a grip over the control it can exert, including having a radical bariatric surgery to have most of my stomach removed It turns out that altering the mechanics of my stomach didn't improve my mental health sufficiently and I continue to have a huge desire to anesthetize the stuff I prefer to ignore with huge quantities of food Even when my capacity to eat was diminished, Richard talked about the shame and embarrassment of food addiction which resonated so clearly. particularly when he talked about the secrecy that binge eating necessitates The journey through addiction has left me with a visible calling card in the form of obesity So the ironic futility of that overwhelming desire for secrecy is not lost on me It's there for all to see Q more shame Thanks for this tremendous episode and the work you are doing to normalize the job of coping with everyday life which is some days much harder than others and doesn't look like an Instagram reel, even for celebrities with best wishes, Kere Thank you so much, Kere. and I'm very glad that Richard's discussion sort of shine a light on some of your own experiences And you're absolutely right that You know, with lots of different mental health disorders, there are ways of sort of attacking the problem from a physical perspective, For example, with alcohol There are medications that make you very nauseous when you drink to try and stop your drinking but I know people who have continue to drink regardless of that because the The real core of it is our s of mental and emotional state, not our physical state and that power to consume is greater than sort of some of the tweaking that medical world can do for us, so I do wish you all the best in your journey The next email is from Ella. Ella says I just want to say a huge thank you for the new season in particular for the Richard Osman episode about food addiction I was going to email last season and ask if you could interview someone about food addiction, but I felt too much shame to do it in the end It always feels like people don't think it's a real thing, like it's just greed or a lack of discipline So hearing Richard discuss it was really powerful I'm lucky enough to have both food and alcohol addiction. Go me So your conversation was relatable from both sides and really valuable to me. I was particularly interested in this idea of the shame being the root cause of all the addictive behaviours. St being the point of focus the absolute driver of any addiction is the addiction itself. It's the shame you feel for being addicted Once whatever your incciting incident that means you're an addict That's gone. The second you start in addictive behaviours Your behavior is so weird and your behaviour makes you feel so dumb and your behavior makes you feel so ashamed of yourself as a rational human being But becomes who you are if you can really, really, really understand your relationship with the shame of the thing There are ways of stopping the spy on I wondered if you could recommend any books or resources that are particularly focused specifically on shame I don't think you do listen to questions. Yes we do But you and Richard discussed addiction like it was almost this living entity in your life and that if addiction was a tendency, it would always be present in some shape or form which made me wonder about the idea of finding a good addiction Do you believe in that idea Do you think that can replace an addiction that's fueled by shame wararmly Ella So two Qions there. Firstly, I know Richard and I discussed shame quite a lot And certainly for him The sort of shame became the driver of his food addiction. and But I don't know that I would say shhame was the root cause of all behaviours Or maybe I'm just misreading But certainly it plays a big role, especially in the sort of secrecy and the fear of telling other people about your situation. in terms of resources on shame U there's a good book which I read a long time ago by John Bradshaw called Healing the shhame that Binds you Now that was written quite a while ago. so I can't speak to how it has dated. But I do remember having interesting elements And obviously, if I recommend something that doesn't chime with you or is worded in a way that's perhaps no longer appropriate I apologise for that, but you know, look for the things in all of these resources that are useful and just discard the things that aren't Also, there's an American a woman called Bene Brown who has written quite a lot about women and shame And I think The key book of hers is I thought it was just me But she's also done some good TEed talks on shhame, especially about realizing sort of her own assumption that it was mainly a female issue and that actually shhame was just as prevalent amongst men So if you Google Bren A Brown, which is B R E N E B R O W N and watch some of her videos But she's written quite a few books. Apparently the gifts is quite a good one to start with but I thought it was just me I think is specifically about women and shame. There's also a book I haven't read but I'm interested in, which is called emmbracing Shame Leon and Sheila Rubin. which is about how to turn shame into a sort of ally in your life, which sounds like an interesting idea, not one that I've explored, but that's got very good reviews Online. that's called embracing shame So I hope they might be of some use. U Also, your question about good addictions and sort of bad addictions I mean, I think it's always better to go for a run or paint a picture or play the guitar or do a crossword or garden. than it is to drink until you pass out or to eat until you are sort of, um, buring. So in that sense It's better to do something than bad But I would say that for me, the most important part of my recovery from alcoholism is not treating myself exterior means by exterior means So I'm trying to find a place where I'm actually okay as I am You know, sat here in silence. Can I sit with that without needing to distract myself and And that has taken a lot of work, twelve step work and therapy and But those positive Adictions is probably the wrong word, but habits play a huge role in that. so For example I Really look forward to my evenings where I'm just winding down in bed play some relaxing music I'll fiddle around on my phone, I'll play scrabble on my phone I'll read, I'll do a crossword I'll sort of just listen to the birds song and have a herbal tea. Now I donon't see that as an addiction because one definition of addiction is a damaging behaviour. causes harm to you or others. that you continue to do regardless of negative consequences, I think that's what I would call addiction because the compulsion to do it outweighs the negative results of doing it. So I don't have that with running or doing crosswords or meditating or whatever, because they do no damage So you I'm filling my life with things I enjoy, things that are soothing and things that are comforting, but I wouldn't class them as addictions So, you know, if you were asking You know, I'm an alcoholic, should I try cocaine? I would say no. But if you're saying I was an alcoholic, should I try you know picking up a guitar that has been gathering dust for twenty years? I would say yes. but sort of alongside work on the On the root cause or you know, whatever Nourishing work helps you, but thank you so much for your questions This next one is from Martha. Martha says. Hi John, I have an eight year old daughter. She is fantastic. Her dad left out of the blue eighteen months ago and now has no contact with her. It's been incredibly difficult to put it mildly. One of the many aspects that's insightful and helpful and thought provoking about how do you cope is the through line from childhood experiences to later life I'm very, very aware that this will become the key formative event of my daughter's childhood And the long term impact depends on how I respond to it feel the weight of that daily And then I'm just going to interrupt Martha's email there to just comment on that because my dad left exactly the same age as Martha would have been when I was six. and I think the phrase formative event is really useful because formative doesn't mean damaging You know, we all have events in our life which we might categorize as positive or negative, damaging or helpful But really, we don't know the outcome of events until much further down the line. So something as being formative means it forms something And no doubt your daughter's dad leaving will form her. It will become part of who she is it might make her It might be the making of her and there are probably people whose Dads didn't leave that it was incredibly damaging for them that they stayed for a number of different reasons So and I'm sort of addressing what you go on to say later in the email here is where you say The long term impact depends on how I respond to it. I would say that's That's true becausecause often It's not the events that harm us It's the narrative we give to those events so I will I'll continue. It feels like we're caught between two scenarios that are better understood, but neither of which quite fits One is the grief of childhood bereavement. This feels closest to what she's experiencing, but the language isn't quite right This wasn't a sad, unfortunate event, but a choice made by someone who had the ability to choose differently The other is parental separation That feels insufficient I feel like I'm surrounded by warnings of how damaging the situation will inevitably become pointers on how to prevent a sort of looming catastrophe Well, I would jump in again there to say that the The previous way you described it felt much more neutral. Um because Parent leaving can be sad, can be painful, is a form of bereavement. and you go through a grief But that doesn't necessarily mean it's damaging and the idea of a looming catastrophe That's a sort of that's the narrative we put on it, a negative narrative. But what if your daughter absolutely flourishes in life because potential negative impact of having a parent around who didn't want to be there or who coped with their own problems in a damaging way. you know there are untold millions of ways these situations can pan out And certainly looking back at my situation, there can be both pain and grief, but also growth and I would say now with forty years. odd hindsight the separation that happened when I was six was for the best, and my life would not have turned out anything like it has if that had not happened. I'm reminded of the parable of the Buddhist parable, which I've mentioned before of the second arrow And it' the idea is this sort of warrior is hit with an arrow And the parable says that There are two arrows The first We have no choice over. that's the actual arrow. The second arrow is our reaction to it. And in that we have choice So what they're saying is that some suffering portion of suffering, I would say, personally, the majority of suffering, is caused by how we react to events, the story we tell about them, not the event themselves. And there are other Buddhist parables on this. Anyone who listens to Ellison and John will have heard the parable of the Fmer, where all the negative Things that happen to the farmer turn out to be positive and all the positive things turn out to be negative. So take a long view and you go on to say that the podcast has helped you think about how you can create a framework that allows me and my daughter to talk about it and process what's happening together. I think that's absolutely crucial. So she doesn't have to do it all by herself in forty years time. Very true And then you say quite a bit of that framework seems to be happening through the medium of Dany Champion of the World How do we craft stories about ourselves that are useful and positive and constructive without them feeling heavy? Good question. Well, I think it's to stay in the present and T tell yourself. This is something my therapist often says to me, Don't tell yourself how you feel justust feel Because as soon as we tell ourselves how we feel We're creating a story about ourselves which can then become the problem And I love Danny Champion of the worldld I'm ashamed and I'm not ashamed. I am embarrassed to admit I listen to it every single night to get to sleep And there's something about the The sort of boundaried tenderness of that dad. who is You know, for me, the great Dad role model is the dad from Danny Champion of the World who sort of is protective and strong, but also tender and kind I find it very, very moving So not a bad place to start, I would say, and I wish you both All the best, Martha and your daughter this next email comes from Matthew Matthew says, I'm not often moved to reach out to podcasts, but I felt compelled to relay my thoughts and reflections following Alison Spitittle's episode. I've been working at eight o'clock then I'm finished work at ten Then I have my dinner after work. So I have my dinner at eleven o'clock and what's available to me is kebabs or whatever. It would be tinged with That's the time I have my meal, but it would also be tinged with how did the gig that go So if the gig wch shhip I'm gonna to get myself Chinese Because like it's a comfort. I deserve it And then I'm going to think about because I'm poor And I got well, I got a Chinese meal for one Let's see what the best options are and I'll spend like forty minutes. you know, doing the maths in my head of like the most that I can get for the least amount of money Ive had I've had a great gig Then I' get to celebr with a lovely Chinese And it's going to be the same process had my own struggles with my weight and appearance I use food as a coping strategy and distraction from my own emotions in a similar manner. My reasons for overeating may differ as each person's situation and circumstances are different But for a good number of years, I abused myself with food I simply didn't care about myself, and the momentary comfort and fleeting seconds and minutes of joy I would feel from food provided some relief for my own struggles with my mental health I felt at the time that I did not have anything to live for. And whilst I would not pursue terminal strategies to directly end my life, I felt that overeating was a form of self harm and was a suitable alternative Today my outlook and mental health have vastly improved. And I now have many things to live for I have a family and a daughter who I love I have a job I look forward to going to Passions and hobbies that I enjoy and obsess over Everything has changed and I could not have predicted this even ten years ago. which reminds me of saying I've heard about addiction which is that addiction is giving up everything for one thing. whereas recovery is giving up one thing for everything And it does sound like you're enjoying the everything Um Freeing the space in your life from food has has given you Matthew goes on I now see my health as essential to ensuring I get the most out of every day. Starting the weight loss medication has given me a kickstart to a health conscious lifestyle A few years ago, I would be out of breath simply tying my shoelaces and today I can run I can cycle, I can play football, and most importantly, I can keep up with my daughter losing forty kilos of weight has so many health benefits, it allows my body to do so much more My motivation has changed wholeheartedly, and now everything I do I do to serve a greater purpose Ive stopped the medication but continue on the same journey and have avoided what some people experience as a bounce backack of appetite Medication alone cannot take you the whole way, and I've found that the lifestyle changes in structure is absolutely essential to maintaining and sustaining the changes you need I'm grateful to Allison. For shining a light on a conversation that is often taboo The struggles that people can have with food are so wide and varied that to presume the reasons behind people's behaviours is wrong and unhelpful One aspect that I continue to struggle with that surprised me since beginning my journey is not me but other people At my biggest, I felt almost invisible in social settings People's language when talking about me was really hurtful So I would often be greeted with a Hey there big lad, as if my personal character was reduced to just my appearance Today, when people see the difference in my size, I'm often greeted by people congratulating me on looking so well, on commenting on how amazing I look. Their intent on the surface may well feel well meaning But it's hard to avoid the automatic thought that they must have thought I looked horrendous before. It's something that I continue to struggle with and hopefully we'll be able to brush off in time For now I can only advocate for my own journey but with conversations from people like Allison who expressed herself so emotively and passionately The journey to acceptance for society as a whole can only improve Thank you, Matthew. Hey, that's really kind, Matthew and congratulations on making such a change in your life And also be no shame attached to medication weight if people want to use it. I find it absolutely baffling. You know if there was a I may have said on the episode of Allison, if there was a pill I could have taken to stop me craving alcohol I'd been there in a heartbeat and no one would have judged me Um You know, and there are pills for other disorders or other problems that that people take with no judgment at all and it does B lie very deep rooted a fat phobic or judgmental view. We all have, I think, some level about weight. and it's just because you can see it. People take nicotine patches to stop them smoking No one judges them, they say well done for doing something about it So There you go. And you know, with other people, a phrase that's been helpful to me is those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind. So You know, it's other people's problem if they are judging you whether it's positively or negatively based on your size, but I do appreciate how that must be difficult Our next email is from Lisa and it's about the Este Ji episode. and Lisa says I've just finished listening to the Esta Ji interview on How Do you Cope and Felt Move to write. I think you need to understand the special talent you have for this work Well that's very kind of you to say. Esther felt safe to share things that she hasn't publicly said before, and how you made her feel supported when she struggled to find words was honestly so beautiful. I have two young boys and the weight of responsibility I feel about creating Men who will be good in the world feels heavy. Men modeling respect and kindness and authenticity are so important in my landscape. So thank you for being a beacon Hey, that's very kindly, sir Lisa goes on to say that she's embarking on a counseling training journey So best of luck with that And I do think, you know, if you are feeling the weight of responsibility, then you're probably doing a good job peopleople who worry that they're notot that Doing well enough as parents tend to be the ones who are doing reallyally, really well So the fact that you're conscious of that is great because I'm sure you're going to seek out Lots of great male role models for your young boys. So best of luck and Do dip into Danny Champion of the World for a Belter of a guy. Next email is from Laurie It's about Susie Ruffles's episode And Laurie says, Suzie Ruffles's episode has left a mark in my mind. One thing that struck out in the conversation was her describing not feeling anxiety while on stage I never feel anxious about going on stage. I feel nerves, donon't get me wrong But when you're in front of an audience, You can't help but be In the moment? And I think that's quite addddictive So it's like an escape from that h kind of. I mean, I feel I feel very sore When' on stage you feel very s At peace, there's only sort of the one vo in my head at that time and it's the voice doing the show A few years ago, I struggled with anxiety so severe I almost spent the entire summer in my bed wondering if each day was going to be my last However After the summer break, I had to go back to work as a teacher And I didn't want to let my students down. so I went out there barely had any sleep for months, felt dizzy but found some peace in the classroom, surprisingly I have to be alert St with thirty five rather loud students as well as sharing my knowledge, yet my brain found some respite in the chaos chaos I'm mostly in control of because I know what I'm talking about. This is my field of expertise Finally, I could turn my brain off despite having to do a million things at a time. My anxiety slowly started to get better. And now I'm almost fully back to being who I was before stillill feeling some varying amount of stress, but not bed bound Yeah, that's so true. I've got a gig tomorrow, in fact, my first gig in eight months. body is dreading this gig. and my brain is saying A, it's saying, cancel it don't do it. say you're ll But it's also Just running through lots of terrible scenarios. what if you die in your ass? what if you can't think of anything to say, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, what will people think of you That anxiety is lying to me because I have done Thousands of gigs in my life Maybe two or three of which have been absolute horror shows. okay, maybe ten or twelve. But I know that as soon as I step on stage, I'm in control, at the minute I'm not in control So my brain is tricking me and there's a phrase I know someone told me Angela Barnes, the comedian to help me the phrase yourour anxiety is lying to you which I found helpful. so I try not to engage the torture chamber of the mind, as my therapist calls it, and just sort of sit with my body. Laorie goes on. The other thing that took me by surprise was my emotional reaction to her coming to terms with her sexuality. I have my own story, but so far it seemed that I belonged to the past and this conversation brought back memories I thought I hadd moved on from, and brought some tears to my eyes I was eleven when I realised I wasn't into boys and tried to convince and force myself to be with little success I wasn't into boys, so surely I was into girls I was lucky enough to know that there was nothing wrong with this but that I didn't want to be different It became all the more confusing When it seemed that the original axiom, I'm not interested in boys, therefore means I'm interested in girls, turned out to be a fallacy becausecause I'm not attracted to people alogether, regardless of their gender Not in that way at least. Most people's experiences are about things that happen to them, behaviors they have, mine is about a lack of them Although I think I can feel some sort of romantic interest from time to time It's very rare I figured out it was mostly induced by society's expectations. and what has been carved into my brain from an early age My experience echoing Susie's words, I force myself into relationships and situations I regret situations that hurt me before I came to this realization And I was angry about this for a long time angry that I was never told this was an option the option to not be sexually attracted to either gender understanding and coming to terms with that part of me has widened my horizons and opened up an entire world even if I cannot deny that I still yearn for a relationship at times I also know the definition of relationship I have in mind is so wide and adaptable that it feels liberating It still feels like I'm missing an integral part of life notot because of who I am, but because of what society allows you to be I've had to reflect on my options. I've had to grieve the life that will never be. the life everyone else wants. the life you are taught you should want I'm mostly okay with it nowadays, but it comes back from time to time Why me? I often wonder There have been fleeting moments in several episodes where it felt loneliness could have been explored, and I hope it will be in a future episode That's a really interesting perspective, Lori and It seems like you're at a more peaceful place with your situation And sometimes when we differ from the mainstream or from you know, what we see in media films and books and things Um Something I've found useful is to just lean into the positives and lean into what's unusual about your situation and see that in itself as a positive because I guess one story tell yourself about your situation is I am missing out on all these things other people have And maybe it might be worth going All these other people are missing out on a lot of things I have because I have sort of a more minority experience of life, but it is a unique one and it is my own And you know, I know from periods of being Not that I'm relating my situation to yours, but from periods of being solitary and not in a relationship and notot looking for a relationship But there are huge upsides to that. So to lean into those embrace your experience, but I do appreciate how difficult it must be at times to be just wired differently from most people But that doesn't mean you're wired wrongly at all Next email is from Mia And it's in relation to the Jason Fox episode. Mir says I love the podcast and recently enjoyed reading your book Thirst While listening to Jason Fox, I was reflecting on the power of reaching rock Bottom And the idea there being a catalyst or turning point at which we decide to make change You said that you were in a ditch. uh Taking enemy fire, am I right? And a sudden feeling came to you that you just wanted to be a kid sat on the sofa watching TV with your mum It wasn't that moment that was the tipping point because I still had' a load more months of doing that anyway. can remember coming back from that employment feeleeling exhausted. a feeling drained the whole six months or period of time that we were awayake was the straw that broke the camel's back. But when I got asked to think about Camriot that's the moment that sticks in my mind more than anything I noted that in your own journey with alcohol You'd had several conversations about drinking and even given up before But something about the conversation you had with Lu Andanders on one specific day made it a catalyst for changing your relationship with alcohol. As a clinical psychologist, often the strategies we discuss in therapy aren't rocket science. Self compassion, mindfulness, acceptance But as you pointed out in your book One of the big issues we work with in therapy people want to feel better but without making any changes I'd love to hear your reflections on turning points when your guests have started to do things differently Have you noticed particular themes Do you have thoughts on whether turning points can be created? by individuals or therapists or whether we just have to work on creating the conditions for change so that when the catalyst happens We can facilitate that change taking hold. Thanks for a brilliant book and podcast. s reallyally interesting M. And it's something I've thought about an awful lot because You know, I say at the start of my book something a therapist said to me years ago which was the phrase, I'll do anything to feel better, justust don't ask me to change And I think all of us have that in some areas of our life And for me, since stopping drinking, I've sort of reflected on why I didn't want to change. and that was because the alcohol in my case was serving me somehow It was giving me something that was better or more comforting or more necessary than what going through the process of stopping drinking would have given me And often alcoholics talk about a point at which the alcohol stopped working And for me, that's when the destruction, the negativity, the ill health, the damage to relationships. begins to outweigh pain of changing. And I think a lot of people I know who describe a rock bottom Talk about in the case of alcohol The fear of Drinking. begins to outweigh the fear of not drinking. Something happens in that deal we make with alcohol Consequences become too big And that was certainly my experience of waking up one night and I was more afraid of drinking than I was of not drinking. So my priority shifted from protecting myself from the pain of drinking rather than protecting myself from the pain of not drinking Now, that still meant there was an awful lot of pain involved in not drinking engaging in that pain became the lesser of two evils And I think that's often why we can create turning points. It can be as simple as picking up a pair of trainers or confiding in someone, leaving your partner, quitting your job, picking up a paintbrush. just I would say don't ask your brain for permission because it will wrap you up in anxiety Again, my therapist calling it the torture chamber of the mind. Often when I try and go to my brain for a thought solution, I sort of go into a spiral And I think really You know, not everyone has a rock bottom because They can tolerate so much pain So in a sense, their strength becomes their worst enemy. Some people's rock bottom is death because the amount of pain and damage they can tolerate is so extraordinary that they drink until they die. And I think that's why twelve step recovery is so often based around submission about embracing weakness not relying on willpower, sort of stopping fighting And there's a phrase I heard recently which is it's not about trying harder, it's about resisting less. And that really struck a chord with me because really When we look at any addict at the absolute sort of bottom We inevitably see it as a kind of weakness. they can't stop doing this thing. But if you flip that around, You think Crykey They are putting themselves through so much, they are in a sense coping with the breakdown of their life and their body in order not to stop So it's the strength It's the willpower that's kind of killing them is one way of looking at it And for me, it was when I stopped fighting, not when I began fighting that I was able to make a change. but I do appreciate it's difficult for everyone Um sometimes meia you just have to wait until the pain gets so unbearable, that you have no other choice. But I do think that's why people struggle to do it alone. I found twelve step prorogram very helpful in just guiding me through that madness. guiding me through how to begin to feel again. and giving me community and people with experience I could call upon, I could never in A million years have done it on my own So the next question is aboutbout the twelfth step recovery system and Buddhism And two big interests of mine, this is from Jack in Ireland and Jack says I have entered a twelve step recovery programme at the beginning of this year and have been finding it tremendously helpful. Buddhism has also been a large part of my life for the last few years, having practised under a few different lineages. I was wondering, as someone that is also involved with twelve step programmes and has an awareness of the Buddhist doctrines of suffering and impermanence Do you ever have trouble integrating or reconciling the two I often find myself getting into mental loops when trying to do it myself Buddhism tends to assert that there is no inherent self or that the self is impermanent, as all things are Whilst in twelve step groups I find addiction and the nature of addiction are treated as immovable, permanent facets of our being Has this ever been a conflict for you? If so, how do you find yourself Navigating it Great question, Jack I would say For me the teaching that Buddhism says that the self is impermanent or the self. and by self I mean the kind of I mean my. I want this, I need this. I'm like this This person's been mean to me. These sort of ways that we think about lifeife as a film we're a star of. That's what I mean byself I find that completely perfectly paralleled with the twelve step program because they're both a form of ego death which helps you helps you be more peaceful When I realize I'm not the most important person in the room, in the country, in the world, in the universe A lot of stress leaves my system When I accept my own mortality, a lot of stress leaves my system. when I except that no happiness is permanent, no depression is permanent, that all things pass I feel more peaceful And for me, the twelve steps one way of looking at them is a form of ego death. Each step is about saying You know You're not the most important person in the world. and that's not in a critical way,' where none of us are. But when I tried to direct my life, terms of getting things I want, things going to plan, getting my own way That's when sort of quite a lot of alcoholic tendencies come out I don't think Buddhism would say that you can't identify as being an alcoholic. Because that alcoholism is a disease, Buddhism doesn't tell you you don't have disease or illness. It tells you that your reaction, how you cope, the story you tell yourself about that disease or illness, can cause more suffering So again, as I mentioned earlier, the second arrow, the first arrow for me, I'm an alcoholic. When I drink alcohol I can't stop and it ruins my life. Second arrow is the story I tell myself about that And you know there are even very direct quotes from the literature of AA, which I know are lifted from Buddhism. So one of the lines in step three, Please relieve me of the bondage of self. And that's a sort of a prayer or an incantation or an exhortation to the universe or a higher power or whatever it is. Relieve me of the bondage of self. That has helped me stay sober But it doesn't mean I can't accept I'm an alcoholic. and definitely the relief of the bondage of self seems to be one of the broad goals of Buddhism. So I don't see them as being conflict at all and I wish you all the best. It seems like you've got two great things in your corner twelve steps and Buddhism. and also we don't need for everything to match up You know, it's okay to take the useful stuff from twelve steps, take the useful stuff from Buddhism. takeake the useful stuff from yoga or from You know, Christianity or Islam M. Whoever it is you follow on Instagram who gives you sort of life hacks, just take all the useful stuff and leave the rest of the curb Okay, a couple of quick ones but before we ended, I'm so sorry I couldn't get through everyone's messages But this is from Pete And I guess it kind of relates to this episode. Pete says I enjoyed your book tour show in Manchester. I didn't fancy the signing queue at the end, especially as I could get the fast train back to Caldder Valley Hills straight after the show. But I did want to ask something. You've been very open in your own struggles over your booze journey, which I think must be complicated at times Do you find it adds an extra level of accountability that is useful Or does it mean you find your life then revolves? around a lot of people talking about addiction with you I found some of the questions at the Manchester Sh may have felt a bit pressuring E G, how can I support somebody with alcoholism You'd answered it very well But I think I may lose my mind trying to deal with that and all of my own shit Really enjoying the pod as ever and congrats on the book Yeah, thanks for that, Pete. And it is something I think about a lot In terms of your first question about accountability, There are times when I've struggled with sobriety. that I have used You know, the fact I've been public about being sober I had a book to write. was coming out, the fact I had to do PR I sometimes use those as motivations to stay sober. and Thats I'm really grateful for those sort of milestones that you know, if I'm walking home on a summer evening and I see someone drinking of Pot of wine in the garden You know I'm very familiar with those old feelings that come back, but I can sometimes go. Well, John You would be a bit of a mess if you drank now because your book's out next week or something like that. or you know, the podcast of you talking about sobriety is coming out. so And that's okay. I don't see that as a pressure Or could I could see it as a pressure, but I choose to see it as a motivation. And in terms of what you say about answering questions Sometimes it is difficult. And at those shows, I did filter out questions from the audience that I felt weren't my place to answer or certainly weren't within my realm of experience I'm very, very suspicious of people who set themselves up as gurus on on topics Especially when it's around recovery because I know know more or no less than the next addict Um So I try to avoid saying I have the answers. or and I try to always speak just from my experience. So hopefully I answered that question just from my experience And then really it means that There's no risk because As long as I say, look, this is just my view then hopefully people take it as just one person's opinion out of millions of people's opinions But anyone who says You know, you've got to do this, you've got to do that I know because of this, I just be very, very reluctant to embrace them I mean, I am ' grateful for all the hundreds of people in my life who have spoken to me from their own experience and given me wisdom for free but I just take takeake what is useful and I Yeah, I'm healthily suspicious of anyone who claims to have the answers or the magic bullet for anything And you know, in terms of supporting somebody with alcoholism I would imagine what I said was something I learned from Alan on which is the three C's I can't cure it, I didn't cause it, I can't control it. Now that's not to say there aren't things you can do to be supportive. you can say to someone, you know, if you want to talk to me about your drinking or your eating or your drug use or Whatever I'm here And I will not judge you and I will not overwhelm you with problem solving and solutions. I'm just here to witness your experience That's a really useful thing to say to anyone who's struggling. I am a safe space for you I can point you in the direction of help if you want it. I'm here for you. But also it's important to have boundaries. That doesn't mean you Just because you know someone is struggling and the reasons they're struggling doesn't mean you have to put up with behavior that is unacceptable And that can be very difficult when it's family especially or in a relationship. And I guess That's why those charities, those support networks, things like Alan on or children of alcoholics All of these things exist to be able to help you Navigate you can and can't influence which is why the seererenity prayer of alcoolics Anonymous is just as useful for people deealing with alcoholics in their lives, What can I control? What can I not control I can put a boundary in place, but I can't stop them breaking that boundary, but I can You know It's a big topic, but there is help out there for people with alcoholics in their lives I'm going to end with a question from Diona? Hi, John, I'm going to stag you soon but not drinking. Can you share any tips on staying sober Well Diona I think first off, you've made a decision to be sober on a stag do And when you arrive, you need to make that decision again So the first thing you do when you get there is if drinks are coming in you order your non alcoholic drink without even thinking. So you make that decision again and keep making that decision Secondly, I would say things like stagds and birthdays and weddings and holidays are the things people most often ask me about as being difficult to be so brupt. I have found despite initially fearing those events, I have found those events to be the places where my sobriety is most useful where it gets the most benefit and in a sense where it's the easiest place to be sober because I'm reminded of how stressful those events were when I was drinking of ramifications, the negative consequences and how much easier they are now I'm not drinking partart of that ease is the fact I can leave whenever I want and Write this large on your handle in your notebook. I have the right to leave You don't have to apologize, you don't have to make excuses. You can just say Hey This is all getting a bit boozy No shade on you guys, I'm gonna head home You don't even have to say that You don't ever have to tell anyone. Just text the group. Hey, I'm off. I'm getting an early night, bye bye No one has the right to make you be in a situation where you're uncomfortable or where you feel at risk. And the fact is, you know to put it in quite extreme terms, I believe that if I drink, I will die eventually So if I'm at an event that's making me feel like drinking, It becomes a question of If I stay at this event, I will die which makes it a much easier decision. but also tell someone there I would tell as many people as possible, Look, I'm not drinking. hereere's the reason So it doesn't affect what you guys do. You get as drunk as you like, but it just might mean I leave early. And I've spoken to friends about that and they are unanimously supportive. And like I said earlier, those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. So I wish you all the best, Yona on your Stag to experience, have an exit strategy, you know, have a way you can get out if you need to that you know in advance. So I'm now going to end with my little gratitude list for today Just five things I'm grateful for. Firstly, the long evenings at the minute. It's summer at the time of recording, which just I mean, and the long mornings, you know, it's light at like half three, which is crazy. So I'm grateful for my eye covers too, which help me sleep in, but I'm grateful for the amount of time I have in the evenings to Eience the world while it's light I saw a deer last night, which is the second thing on my gratitude list. I went out for a walk in the countryside and saw this beautiful deer And it was like just old enough to be on its own, but not so old that it was afraid of humans So it just stood there And we stared at each other for Minutes and it was gorgeous I'm grateful for my garden 's been raining and yet very hot So everything is just shot up and I've got fox gloves Ponies, roses panula, I think it's called. my clematus is flowering, the honeysuckle. o my god. Its smells, it's a delight for the eyes and a delight for the nose and the ears with all the All the birds knocking around Um So how many things is that? That's three Long evenings eye covers. A deer My garden, that's actually f But two more, I'm very grateful for my car been using that a lot recently to get around for work and to explore my local area and I'm grateful for driving me to the airport. on a recent trip abroad And fininally, I'm grateful to all the teams of people who work. on the various projects I have peoplee with far more expertise than me brring all those expertise to help create things like podcasts and films and I recorded something yesterday and there was a camera operator, a writer, a director a runner, a researcher Just all these people working all day. so that when I sort of have to do my short bit, it all goes smoothly and the end product turns out well all doing things that in a million years I wouldn't be able to do myself. So I'm very grateful to them as well