Addressing Polarization and Sustainable Growth

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This message is brought to you by Apple Card For a limited time when you get a new Apple card and purchase AirPods Pro three at Apple, you can earn back the cost up to two hundred fifty daily cash New AirPods Pro and up to two hundred and fifty dollars bonus daily cash back. Now that's music to my ears subject to credit approval, limitations and spend requirements apply. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank, USA, Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at Apple.co slash airpods You may have heard the best voice in show businessiness, Morgan Freeman talking about a serious and underdiagnosed heart condition that's often missed ATTR cardiac amyloidsis or ATTRCM It's a condition that can greatly disrupt your life with symptoms like severe fatigue, shortness of breath, and carpal tunnel. If left untreated, ATTRCM may become serious, leading to a shorter lifespan. Atrubie helps adults with ATTRCM live longer Fewer hospitalizations due to heart issues, so you can focus more on living for what you love Tell your doctor if you're pregnant plan to become pregnant or are breastfeeding and about the medications you take The most common side effects were mild and included diarrhea and abdominal pain If you have ATTRCM cardiologist about a Tuby and visit a Truby. com slash podcast that's A T T R U B Y com slash podcast to learn more It's time to get busy living to you by Bridge Bio Hello and welcome to thevice Line on How I But this Lab I'm Guy Rz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is one eight hundred four three three one two nine eight. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with Let's get to it Joining me this week is seventh genereration cofounder Jeffrey Hllander, Jeffrey. It's so great to have you back on the show. Welcome back I'm happy to be here. Great to see you again. You were first on how I But This in twenty twenty one. And as always, if you guys haven't heard that episode, we will put a link to it in the show notes. And in that episode, we had you on with your coounder, Alan Newman that you hadn't spoken to in decades. And in nineteen ninety two, as we talked about in the story The board of directors pushed Allen out. You stayed on as CEO until ten And by twenty sixteen, Seventh genereneration was acquired by Unilever for about Six to seven hundred million dollars.s amazing story because it really uncovered you know, the delicate relationship between partners and you just have recently put a book out about your story called Built for a Better World, how seeventh Generation pioneered a movement that changed the purpose of business. so congrats on that, Geffrey. Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about it Before I ask you about the book, I know that You know, when you came on, it was a big deal because the two of you, it was the first time you had spoken in years and there was a lot of sensitive things that we talked about. How did you feel about that? I mean, of course, the time outer was hard, but on reflection, how did you feel about it? I felt great about it. In some ways, it helped reconcile some unresolved issues And I think we both approached it with an openness to re evvaluate what we thought we did right and wrong. And so it was sort of a growing experience in a way, a bit of a healing experience. So I'm thrilled that you gave us the opportunity to do that I mean, it was clear to that there was there was a lot of mutual respect and there was it's hard because when partners fall out, it's hard. But the two of you came and really talked about But that story I thought didn't really handway you know, I'm curious about the book writing process What what did you want to do in the book? What was your what was your aim I wanted to try to gather together all the lessons that we learned running seventh genereration as a business that put its purpose ahead of profit And I wanted other businesses who wanted to follow in our footsteps to learn from what we had learned and what I thought business needs to do in the future Responsible business has not fixed all the problems we're facing in the world And we need to make some dramatic changes if that is going to happen. D. When you when you work with founders who have a social mission, right? who, you know, who want to And again again, that is There's been a bit of a shift, right? There was it was a lot of that kind of startu energy happening. you know, it be sort of between twenty ten and twenty twenty. I think some of it' faded a little bit, but there was a sort of the one to one, you know, buy one, we'll give one away kind of thing. and a lot of socially focused businesses It seems like that has fav it a little bit. F of all, do you agree with that I can't understand why it looks like that given what you read in the newspaper. but When I look at who's signing up for my class and when I talk to people the enthusiasm They have for using business to try to solve social and environmental problems In some regards is growing But it's just not being talked about as much as it was before because people are scared sort of stick their head up and say, Hey, I'm doing this great stuff There is sort of this new language called green hushing where people do sustainable thingsings and they don't talk about And part of it is the sort of political environment we live in And We have many aspects of responsible business like diversity and inclusion Businesses have a great business case for doing because it has a positive effect on the company It also comes with risks So people continue the practice. They just don't call it diversity and inclusion. and they don't really publicize it on their website. in spite of the fact that they continue to do it And that's a confusing landscape can't afford to have business take its eye off the critical nature of addressing social and environmental problems we have We just can't afford that Yeah curious because you also teach at NYU, right? You teach business class when you have young people who are saying, hey, you know, I want to do what you did at se generation. I want to start something That's going to have an impact and that's going to be a sustainable, robust business U what advice do you give? because it's a very different world than it was when, you know, you and Alen were, you know, hippies in you know in Burlington, Vermont, starting seventh generation You have to really understand the business case for doing what you're doing You can't just decide I'm going to do some good things and make some good products and make people happy You really have to understand from a financial perspective Why doing the right thing economic and financial benefits for the business makes you more competitive. And as I said before, helps you attract the best talent that performs at its highest level of capability And there is abundant research much of which NYU has done itself demonstrates that people that run businesses in a responsible purpose driven fashion Generate better results, more profits, better growth and As young students, they have to be very familiar with that landscape So they can make the business case to investors who want to know that that money will be used effectively and successfully For sure U Jeffrey, great advice. Why don't we bring on some callars and see if we can give some more advice Love to do that. can't wait. All right, let's bring in our first call. Welcome to thevice L line. You're with Jeffrey Holland, cofounder of seeventh Generation. Welcome to the show. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. Hi, guysy I and Jeffrey. I'm Christina Molonaro, calling from Dayton, Ohio I'm the coounder of twenty five in Pine with my husband Nick We build functional furniture for parents and kids to share, where you make your space theirs in ten seconds Awesome, Christina, thanks for calling. so you're in Dayton. And You make furniture for toddlers? Is that is that am I describing that right Well, a bunch of kids furniture is built just for toddlers and just for kids. And so when we had our son, our furniture stopped working for us. It was either made for them or made for us and it didn't work for both of us U, so you're constantly choosing to sit on the floor and be uncomfortable or send them into a playroom while you're emptying the dishwasher and they're somewhere else. And that's just like the part that nobody thinks about, I think, when they're designing kids furniture. is that your space starts separating you from your kid So we wanted to make furniture that helps you stay in the same space. So tell me a little bit about what the furniture looks like. Is it I mean, do you sell sofas and de? like what do you sell So we built our business around side tables pretty much. And so where we started was with a table and a chair set for him So for him, it's a place to read, have a snack, play with his toys, something that's his size and easy for him to use. But then for us it also works as well. So it's It's weight tested for adults, but the chair that he sits in actually flips and becomes a stool for one of us. And then the table flips into a bench so we can sit down and be a part of it with him. So we're not hovering. We're actually like sitting and participating and connecting with our with our s. So when you put on its side, it's a chair or a bench, and then when you flip it, it's like a bench for an adult orr you could use it as a side table, basically Exactly. Awesome. And where are you making this Are you guys making it yourself Yes So we have been making all of everything by hand. Wow. So you're doing it like in your garage or like how you rented a warehouse space So we did start in our apartment garage, and then when we bought a house, we moved it to the basement. and then a video went viral on TikTok, and we no longer could fit in our basement and had to move into a commercial space. And luckily one became available, so we've been there since. Well, and give us a sense of what how you're doing on sales And so our sales over the past like five years has been about six hundred thousand dollars. Is that total or is that every year Total sales, tootal. o past five years. Yeah yeah Got it. All right, before we dive in further, what's your question for us Like I just mentioned, our business grew through organic social media, but we've reached the point where posting a loone is no longer enough. So our question now is how do we build a sustainable way to reach parents who feel this problem before they know our product exists? Okay, Jeffrey Hoander, I want to bring you in here. This is a kids benure chair and also an adult chair, a side table. It's really cool. I'm looking at the website now course, you know, seems like sounds like things have plateaued a little bit. So Before you answer the question, thoughts or questions for Christina Well one thing I would say sort of right off the bat is don't give up on social media Someone who's very knowledgeable once said to me, whatever worked ninety days ago won't work today. And it is constantly changing and constantly being reinvented. And I think what you have to figure out is new ways to use social media to continue to attract new customers because it's going to be the most cost effective way to reach people And you know, one of the things I found is my kids are much better at it than I am So if you're run out of ideas, find some younger people, teenagers, you know, and they might be able to help you discover places to go, new things to do, new ways to attract the customers that want to buy this product. You mentioned Christina something, you said that you had a video that went viral or something that went viral in twenty. What was that video So that video, a bunch of the videos that have done well on social media were about this original side table that we had built our business on. The one that went mega viral was right before Christmas and it was a wine table so you could it would hold two glasses of wine. So you can imagine why that went viral. and then our sales went off and then that's when we were able to move into the comm. Was the video funny? Was it showing parently? because you mentioned Yeah, I mean, I' have two kids that are grown now, but when I remember toddler furniture is a pain. You can't sit in it, you can't It's it, you know, and then when the kid grows, it's useless. ' like Tell me what you did with the videos. So all of our social media up to this point is just me in the shop in my wood shop explaining who I am, what we're doing, telling my story. So now I think it's more of just like a I'm in a different space. I'm in my house showing my kid trying to not show his face, which is as you probably know, a sensitive topic online.. So I'm still trying to tell our story and whatnot. I'm just looking for other ways I think to reach them because I don't know that peopleeople are just scrolling social media that they're like, Ohh, this is what I need. I don't mayaybe the messaging isn't clicking. somethingomething is just It's just different from what I've been selling for the past five years. so I'm just trying to figure out like what's next or what's missing or what I can do better Yeah. Do all the visitors for your social media come through to your website? Is that how it's set up in the past. And so a lot of our followers and email subscribers and things are from our old products and things as well One of the things that you might look at is to also there's probably lots of benefits to your product that people are not aware of when they see it And maybe there's an electronic newsletter that you can send out to everybody who's interested that shares more benefits than they might get from or a Instagram message. And you know, maybe it's about the materials you use. mayaybe it's a story about a friend of yours who use the furniture in an unusual way Maybe it's about the finishes that are maybe non toxic and safer for people to have in their home Dig into all of the stories that you can tell about your business and find a way to keep telling those stories and engaging people in ways that will make them feel excited about. buying products from you. Newsletters are terrific. It's a terrific idea You know, I was thinking, Christina, u There is an opportunity because I'm looking at your website here and you see there are babies and toddlers using it and that's cool and that's great. and it says toddler furniture that doesn't look like kids furniture, which I think is a great message. you know, a lot of Pet owners want pet furniture that doesn't look like pet furniture And there's a whole category of that kind of furniture But I think you have an opportunity to do funny things You know, a couple of years ago, you could take the videos that you've made that have worked the best and you could put money behind them, some money, right? You know, let's say thousand dollars a lot, but you can try it and and really push it out on Meda and TikTok and see what happens But I would also consider using humor, like You know, buy buy a an inexpensive toddler chair, you know wooden toddler chair that a lot of people might have mayaybe even a well known brand, right? and try to put your butt in that thing. and everyone is going to see that that is a nightmare. you know, show that you've got the solution to this problem. I agree. and that makes so much sense. I just started some small running ads just to kind of test the waters and using AI just to like help me figure out how to do ads because it is intimidating. But I guess my other like H hesit I like the funny idea. Its I think I get tripped up a little bit because it're not we didn't I mean, we designed it better, but other people do like sell this product. So we have another product in the line that's about to launch. that's actually it looks like a coffee table and then you flip the top over and it has train tracks and spots for blocks to plug into and so you can make little tunnels and things I think what you're saying, I keep thinking about that table more and getting more excited about things that I could do with that as well. I think you could do versions of it. I mean, I think the other thing is it might be worthwhile sort of seeding this with you know, ten or fifteen caders or influencers who talk about toddlers and just saying, all right, we're going to send these out. you know, we're going to take a risk here I see these sets are not cheap, right? But maybe you send a stool you pick ten influencers, you say, we're just going to send to them and with no ask opefully It'll work and hopefully they might talk about it That's a good idea. And you don't have to go after people that have a million followers. Exactly. The people with ten thousand, five thousand one hundred followers much more open to doing something with you And they won't charge you money. I think they'll be happy to help And that's the way I would build sort of what you call brand ambassadors. People that love what you're doing. and keep posting about it because they're excited about what you've accomplished That's a good point too. And I'm sure parents who are busy with toddlers running around would be excited to have something to make their days easier, which is exactly what we're going after. So that all makes sense it's a it's really cool idea. I mean, again, I think I think amplify the best performing content with a little bit of money if you can. and try it and send it to some influencers with five or ten thousand followers, that's you know, significant. and and see what happens. I'll try it. It's so intimidating, but I I'll do it. Good luck the bnd is called twenty five in Pine. Christina Molono. thanks so much for calling in. Thank you so much for having me. B fan. so thanks. All right. Thank you We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Guy Rz, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab Before every interview I do, there's a mountain of material notes, transcripts, research. And the difference between a good conversation and a great one usually comes down to how well I've absorbed all that stuff Lately, I've been using the new Kindle scribe to do some of that work It lets me read and annotate everything in one place, especially PDF's If my team and I are going through a founder's memoir, I can highlight key passages or jot notes in the margins and then quickly pull those insights back up when I'm preparing for the interview. What I like is that it still feels like writing on paper But it's a lot more powerful. 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Thiscoin is often talked about as an investment it was built to be used. With cash app, you can actually do that. Send Bitcoin instantly, pay at local square businesses that accept it, or move it to your own wallet whenever you want. It works like real money andless like something locked in an account For a limited time, new customers can get ten dollars ten added to their balance. Just use code cash app ten when you sign up. And don't forget this part, send at least five dollars to a friend in the first two weeks. Terms apply CashApp is a financial services platform, not a bank, banking services provided by CashApp's bank partners. Bitcoin services provided by Block Inc Brand For additional information, see the Bitcoin disclosures at cash. app slash legal slash podcast Welcome back to the Avice Line on How I Bilt this lab. I'm Guy Rosz, and my guest today is Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of seeventh Generation, and Jeffrey, ready for next call Absolutely, let's go Okay, let's bring in our next Coler, welcome to the Avice Linerar with Jeffy Hollander, co founder of seeventven Generation. Please tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business Sure, my name is Phil Halstead. I am co founder with my wife Sarah Red Truck Orchards Calling from our farm here in Northport, Michigan And Red Truck Orchards produces vinegar from cherries. We live on a cherry farm And our cherries are a super fruit. So they're full of these natural anthocyanins, which act as antioxidants and anti inflammatories in our bodies Our cherry vinegar is good for you. It tastes great, it's made and bottled right here on the farm Wow, welcome to the show. Thanks for calling and Phil so Cherries, I guess I should have known this They're like a big thing in in that part of Michigan Cherris are a big thing like in New York, Utah, Washing Northwest. Yeah. But up here in Michigan, we call it the tart cherry capital of the world.' here in Traversse City, Michigan. We're just north of there whichich is like the perfect cherry you want for a cherry pie actually. It's a great cherry pie and our vinegar is made from these tart Motmoreni cherries that have these health benefits, but also very flavorful with to mix in also sweet cherries like those that you buy in the grocery store All right, cherry vinegar. I think pretty straightforward. you basically cherries and let them sit and like grapes and turn into basically a wine and then you let that keep fermenting and turns into vinegar, right kind of What we've done is create a proprietary process in which we take the whole cherry. without the pit Instead takeaking cherry juice and just lay in it for minute We take the whole cherry Yes, with these create this exceptional wine and then we destroy it this specifically culture acetyo bacteria we've developed to make the flavor and the the type of cherry vinegar that we have. So it's a skin on double fermented product. We're not taking juice We're not taking and flavoring apple cider vinegar All right. And so your product is cherry vinegar. And where do you is are you selling this mainly online? We're selling it online as well as we are just getting to about fifty retailers here throughout Michigan And then we're trying to scale that up with a distributor So this business is built to scale so that we can achieve our purpose, which is to support and strengthen farms here up in Northwest Michigan. They're in distress. They need some additional sustainable pricing and we're trying to help them So you're buying up the cherries and then turning into vinegar. And is this going to be your only product or do you have a sort of down the line, do you imagine sort of creating a broader product line Really good question We see cherry vinegar as being like a new category of vinegar. So you have like your Apple cider vinegar, you have your grapes vinegars So we can make a balsamic version, we can age it, we can takeake it and flavor it if you've seen like apple cider vinegar But it's a new vinegar pase And then what we want to do is basically we have a Pipeline of these new products over time that we willll bring out Great. And what how much does a bottle cost seventeenars ninety nineents. So this is a premium priced product, which means it must be a premium product. It is a premium product. It has, if you think of it as apple cider vinegar, So we have the mother We have the same acidy of vinegar, vinegar is good for you But then we have all these polyphenols and the super fruited cherries. And of course, as we get our scale up, that we can bring that price down. Got it. Okay, so you're still and I imagine you're notet profitable because you're still pretty new Unfortunately not. Yes. ye. Okay. And before I bring in Jeffrey, your question for us And when our purpose to achieve and support local farms by producing this vinegar What we're trying to do is really understand our messaging and actions that would accelerate trial and increase purchase intent That's what we're trying to do. So you're trying to figure out a messaging here. Okay, Jeffrey, I want to bring you in here. you are a healthy guy and I should say, I drink a tablespoon of diluted apple cider vinegar every day. I believe in it put it in water, I think it's great for insulin, increasing insulin resistance and blood sugar management. and I love it Uh, so I've been doing that for years. Anyway, Jeffrey, messaging around cherry cider or vinegar. No. You shared with me some of the educational literature you have, which I think is terrific because I think the primary challenge we have is letting people know all of the benefits that this product has Tough thing to do at retail It's very hard to put all that information onto a bottle and Consumers don't spend a lot of time reading labels in the store So I would Continue to work away at your social media I think that there's many, many people that would be interested in this product You have lots of information to share with them And I would drive people to your website to buy by sharing the information on places like TikTok and Instagram. Yeah You know, I'm looking at your website here. you know, it's nice, but there are a lot of things that you can do small tweaks, I think, that will help you start to shape your message. Jeffrey' talking about social media, which is absolutely critical, but you got to shape the message that you're going to deliver on social media. And I think that One of the easiest things low hanging fruit, so to speak here is helping people understand how to use this. So morning ritual, one tablespoon of water grate your salad for lunch. In the afternoon, pour some of this in a glass with sparkling water and you've got a great pick me up. It just something like that, you know, where it's like one, two, three every day And then you start to shape and help people understand how they should be using this I think you also have to work a little bit on your search situation because when you type in cherry vinegar You end up getting cherry vinegar cherry vinegar Yeah And that is going to be confusing to your potential customers And we got to get the algorithm to work so that it doesn't send people to the wrong place when they're searching for you because that's critical Yeah, good point. I think that for you, it's really what you're after is that first taste, like you need You've got to get people to try it, right? You want to generate that first try. And I imagine you're going to farmers' markets, probably or locally, right U But you know, let's face it, Northport is I'm looking at the map here. I mean, Traverse City is the closest kind of B bigger place, it' small, right? You want to get to Grand Rapids. You want to get to Chicago, Milwaukee And you want to get into stores where you can sample this, where you can get people to just taste this And you got to be there to do that Nothing replaces those sampling programs Because many people have never experienced this before And you've got to convert them. And as Guy said, there's no better way to convert them and to let them taste the product We have sampling set up here locally, farers markets, local stores, retailers were down in Detroit area. So we've got some distribution down there, about ten, fifteen stores Absolutely. We need to get more people to trial it and then follow through What do you do after someone makes a purchase on your website? When's the next time they hear from you I think we need to improve that for sure. What they do is we Bring them ono our email list if they opt in for that And then basically about every two weeks or three weeks, we're sending out email updates on the business, the farm recipes. We have about fifty recipes online and building upon that I really question whether this Frequent enough whether every two weeks is sufficient, What are your thoughts I don't think two weeeks is bad. I have some people do that daily and I find it quite irritating and I unsubscribe. And I think the more fulfilling the experience of reading it can be by giving them really important health information telling the story of the farm and the opportunity that you're creating for retailers That's going to draw people into the product and Unfortunately, sometimes it takes many, many newsletters before someone will give you a second chance But one way to monitor the health of your business is how many people come back for that second purchase I would hope that it would be over fifty percent at least to know that you've satisfied them with what they bought We are excited about that. We've got people in California, New Jersey buying a third time, fourth time, fifth time. People buying two bottles, four bottles or shared it with their friends So we're seeing that. we just need to grow faster. If we were going to achieve our goal And it's I think a lot of it is just nailing down your message, right? Millions of people are interested in metabolic health. And so I would really tap into some of that, you know, one tablespoon of water to You know, to regulate blood sugar every day, you know, upgrade your salad and then have it in sparkling water in the afternoons. Just hammer those ideas and start at the website and then build those out at the farers markets on social media videos of people tasting this and saying, Wait a minute, this is great So I would really Start with just nailing down the message and then amplifying that out wherever you go I like that. suuper simple Super simple. ye Last thoughts for Phil, Jeffrey Well, you know, as we talked about before, Guy finding people, particularly people that people will recognize talking about loving the Plock is a way to attract attention to your brand. So if you can find and I would send them samples. I I would find some people that Maybe you're really into cooking or into to these types of products. Send them a sample blind, ask them what they think about it. And if they love it, maybe they'll talk about it Yeah. And finally, you've got a great story. Michigan cherries, specific cherries really are about this part of Michigan And people love that, you know? and I think you could also lean into into that as well. Very good. Thank you and Come visit the farm. let' We be Bloom will be here in May and cherries will start in July I mean, I think it's one of the nicest places to be in the summer for sure, right Gorgeous It amazing. Yeahah. But keep cre it a secret. All right you don't want too many people coming up here. Phil Holstead of Red Tick Orcharders, thanks so much. goodood luck Thank you. All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us, I'm Guy Rosz, and you're listening to the Avice line right here on how I built this lab. Every business is now asking the same questions How do we make AI work for us? 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Udates to your d. com take too long or feel harder than they should be, Framer is the shortcut you've been looking for Framer is a website builder that turns dot coms from a formality into a tool for growth, helping thousands of businesses from early stage startups to Fortune five hundreds build better websites faster Whether you want to launch a new site, test a few landing pages or migrate your full. com Framer has programs for every size of business to make going from idea to live site as easy as possible Learn how you can get more out of your dot com from a frramer specialist or get started building for free today at framer dot com slash built for thirty percent off of Framer Pro annual plan frramer d. com slash built percent off frramer d. com slash built Rules and restrictions may apply Welcome back to the Vvice Line on How I But this Lab. I'm Guy Ros, and today I'm taking your calls with Jeffrey Hollander, co founder of seeventh Generation, and let's bring in our next caller. Hi, Gy and Jeffrey. My name is Caroline Buck. I'm here in Oakland, California. My husband and I started Pataluma, a direct to consumer dog food company making plant based formulas using whole food ingredients like chickpeas, pumpkin, peanut butter tasty stuff like that Awesome, welcome to the show. Okay. so it's a direct consumer pllant based dog food compomany. Yeah Tell me about I'm sure the first question you get a million times is, well, don't dogs eat meat? Isn't that aren't they carnivores Of course, yeah. it's the same question that most vegans, vegetarians get when they go home for Thanksgiving for the first time too. right? Like arerenn't you wasting away now Yeah. Most people, I think have been fed Mostly like a marketing story about what dogs should be eating They co evolved with us twentynoney thirty thousand years ago, maybe even longer ago and they ate our scraps mostost of Human history in most parts of the world, we didn't throw out a lot of meat So they had to evolve to have digestive enzymes to break down carbohydrates and starches They are true omnivores like humans Yeah. How how did you come? I mean, imagine you and maybe your husband are both vegetarians or vegans Yes, I had been kind of flirting with being vegetarian most of my life but didn't really go full tilt Until maybe twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen on a New Year's resolution, I just went cold turkey and never looked back I've have a couple of dogs and living at the time in San Francisco U I had a very crystal conversion moment of walking my dog in Golden Gate Park and him playing with a pig on a leash, someone's pet pig. And I was just like, all right I'm officially the lines have officially blurred. I now need to to knock this off. So it was a personal dietary change before it became one for my dog. And how did you come up with this business idea? Did you have experience with pet food No. I spent most of my career in tech. I've been in the Bay Area for my entire adult life Um I worked out lots of startups. I saw lots of entrepreneurs up close It took me a long time to want to create something myself, but it came out of a need and a desire for a product I was, you know, someone who wasn't buying meat for myself, was still buying like a twenty pound bag of mostly processed animal products every couple of weeks for my dogs And it felt really incongruous. and have been prescribing Vvegetarian dog food for decades to manage allergies, the most common allergies to dogs kindind of strangely compared to humans is chicken and beef U so it's not new But I couldn't find something that felt like it was a similar quality level to what I'd been feeding before So it started out and my husband and I making it ourselves. small Batches when you realize how much drg food you have to make it You know, that gets hairy quickly. And it took us a long time to make something that we felt really excited and confident about. And this is dry dog food, right? Correct. Yeah. We make our food in a bakery So it's not kable. It's made the way like a treat would be made traditionally in an oven So slope low temperatures and okay Before we bring in Jeffrey, your question for us? So my question Plant based dog food is obviously polarizing and it takes a few minutes to get grounded and what we're doing and why And my instinct as a marketer has always been to just be super transparent and let the evidence, let the science do the work But I think the controversy of the category It can spark a lot of conversation and curiosity, but it can also bring some outrage, especially in the world of running online ads or social media So my question is as a brand, How do you feed that curiosity without triggering the outrage I got some good thoughts here. I'm Jeffrey Hlland, I want to bring you in here. Before we answer Caroline's question. An any questions for her thoughts Well just tell me a little bit more about the outrage. Where is that coming from? What's creating that You know, I think some of it is that most people have never heard of it before So I think there is like a bit of a knee jerk reaction that people have of like, that's wrong or That's not possible type of U and then food is just as Both of you know, very emmotional, polarizing. and peopleople have super strong opinions and especially Dogs have kind of risen to the status of children for a lot of people. So what you're feeding them It's a big thing And are there any health studies about dogs on this diet getting healthier than alternatives There are excellent studies that have come out in the last two years, really showing that they go to the vet less often There's lots of really specific things about plants that are similar to the benefits that humans get when they eat more fiber, for example. or they have more you know, anti inflammatory rich foods in their diet. Um But I would say like the most compelling evidence is just that it's as good and probably better than a lot of trraditional dog foods. And I think that's I've tried to I've kind of strayed away from making a claim that it's like so much better because I don't want to lose people in feeling like I'm prostlytizing or being preachy. I think you have to question that because I'm not sure people want to buy something that's as good as what they're getting now or as good as something else that they can get So' much sure I would o with that positioning. I think you got to feel proud about what you're selling If it's not better, make it better because I think to survive You've got to have a better alternative than other people have. You've got to have a story that talks about why you are better too the extent possible, you have to have evidence that backs that up Yeah, I so it's interesting because I'm looking at your website, okay and it says guuilt free. shelf stable. and now Now I click on the website, Jeffrey for seventh generation. And what does it say? the first thing it says is leave dishes extra clean It doesn't say guilt free cleaning. It doesn't say a better safe it says extra clean dishes. It's talking about the function and I think To me, I think that If you start with, hey, it's guilt free can be polarizing because some people might say, I don't feel guilty about serving my dog meat based food But I think you should really use that skepticism as the fuel to tell your story and really actually surface that. so If you were to make a video or you were to even have a message on your website, you would start with like Wait a minute, dogs can eat plant based. Is this actually like good for them? because this sounds wrong And then you can say, well, that's a fair question. So let me kind of walk you through it and really say, well, actually their bodies really respond well to simple whole foods like you know, peanuts, peanut butter and, you know, oats or whatever you're putting in the in the food, sweet potatoes You know a crazy idea, but I think your best customers are going to be vegetarians who have dogs And if you can find people who are vegetarians and have dogs. You're going to make a quick connection with the belief they already have about this diet being healthier and the logic if it's good for me it's probably good for my dog. Yeah, that's definitely been our our core customer