Reflections on the Founder Journey

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With Square, you get all the tools to run your business with none of the contracts or complexity And why wait? Right now, you can get up to two hundred dollars off square hardware at square dot com slash go slash built Sq U a R e dot com slash Go slash built Run your business smarter with square. Get started today Hello and welcome to the Vviceeline on How I But this Lab. I'm Guy Ros. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is one eight hundred four three three one two nine eight. Leave us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. All right, let's get to it Joining me this week is Sarah Laflleur. She's the founder and CEO of the women's clothing brand MM Leaflleur. Sarah, it's great to have you back on the show Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. How're excited to have you. You've been on the show twice before. A first time was in feebruary, twenty twenty to tell us the story of building. M M LFlor. and like many founders we've had on the show, you started the brand because you had a problem to solve, which was you were a corporate consultant. And just too many clothing options didn't really fit in with what with what you weren' to wear. And that of course was back in twenty eleven. And then along the way you built this awesome brand, but then you had some challenges, especially during COVID. and we're going to get an update about what happened, But it's a great episode for anybody who hasn't heard it, We'll put a link to it in the show notes So before we get to our callers, I was hoping to just kind of catch up. tell tellell us a little bit about how things have been going since you were last on the show Oh my gosh, well I feel like I have lived ten lives And I think you know, last time I was on your show I think I was seven months pregnant and now my kids are five and a half. so yeah, it's been a wild five and a half years. And yes, COVID was horrible for my business. You, our revenue in twenty twenty was down sixty percent from twenty nineteen. We had to go through three rounds of layoffs. It was so painful. We had to close every single one of our stores reopen some of them and then we actually open some new stores as well. So wow. you know we got the business to profitability in twenty twenty two again and have just been steadily growing since. and it feels like in many ways, I feel lucky that I G to have a second shot at it. You know, I really thought I was going lose it all and it's been This amazing experience of getting to build and rebuild the brand And hopefully doing it smarter the second time around , I remember in our conversation, the thing that really struck me and I think so innovative about this brand is the idea of a uniform. And I think about you a lot because Anyone who's seen me do anything live or in public knows that I have a uniform. It's a blue blazer. and sort of greenish trousers in a white shirt. It's just what I wear where I feel comfortable. I have fifteen different blue blazers. And it might sound boring to some, but but that's like what I feel best in. I feel and the concept of MM Leflore was to create a uniform. obbviously it wasn't just It was like a much more broader line of offerings, but that was the idea. behind it, Now you've expanded it where it's like it's still very professional, it's still very elegant, but but it's not just for the office. Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think for the majority is you know, white collar professionals, there's some virtual work mixed in with just how we work these days So we have a really healthy mix of kind of more casual, we call it power casual clothing. So it's like it's a blazer and denim that is like the way a lot of professional women dress these days. You know, jackets are now the power item. And I think it just it makes sense if you think a better a lifestyle. like she might go to the office and then you know go to pick up her kids from school or she might go out for dinner with her friends. and to be able to just like take off that jacket you know, it helps you go pretty seamlessly from professional to casual And now whereas like I think a lot of women would have said, like Oh, I have a rack full of dresses. I think a lot of women have a rack full of jackets. I think we're talking about women sort of roughly late twenties to sort of mid to late fifties Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we have almost equal age distribution, which is like one of the things I'm most proud about in our brand, like we don't really particularly skew young or mature or You know, I think the professional woman like the way she's dressing when she's twenty seven is not all that different from how she's dressing when she's forty seven. Yeah. Hopefully she has more disposable income and she's able to invest in more like quality pieces and things that she'll wear for the long term. But we really we like to say you know at MM, it's a psychographic, not a demographic That's really, really interesting All right, you ready to take our first call Can't wait, this is so exciting. All right, let's do it. Let's bring in our first caller. Welcome to the addvice line. You are on with Sarah Leflur Founder of MM Laflleor, please tell us your name, where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business Hi, Siren guuy. My name is David Rustiano. I'm calling in from Point Pleasant Beach, New Jersey And I am the founder of a company called SOR We make muscle recovery products, all natural, noninvasive ways to add wellness and self care to your daily routine without adding much time or trouble to it. Okay, thanks for calling in, David. So tell me what your product is. muscle recovery are like like f guns? what are you selling a lot more low tech than Therag guns. We actually our hero product is called SourceOap and it's a physical therapy tool shaped bar of ultra hard analgesic all natural soap And it's hand stamped into a muscle scraping tool. You hang it up in your shower on a suction cup holder so it stays high and dry and germ free. And every time you get in the shower after a run or a pilates workout or just a long day of work You scrape your muscles. I usually start with the back of my neck and work my way down and I focus on my calves and my Achilles, those areas. This is like like a fascia kind of thing, like loosening your fascia. Is that the idea It is it works on soft tissue and fascia. And we originally created it with athletes in mind But it's really it's straddled into the wellness and healthcare space. We work with a lot of physical therapists. My co founder is a doctor of phhysical therapy. And when did you start the business Like so many businesses we started during COVID, My men's soccer leagues were shut down here in New Jersey. so I needed something to keep my mind and body occupied. So I went for a long run and my hip flexor was sore So when I got home, I jumped in the shower like normal and I saw a bar of Irish spring in the soap dish that my wife had just put in there And it has a little bit of a curve on the bottom and it reminded me of the grast and tool that my doctor, my physical therapist, who's now my business partner used on my calf when I had a calf strain. So I started to scrape my hip flexor and it felt great. and I worked my way down to my quads and my calves and my Achilles was an immediate feeling of relief and recovery. So Being the designer that I am, I jumped out of my shower and I ran into my studio and I started drawing logos and doing a Google search for real therapeutic massage soap And I realized that there was there was nothing like it out there. So I wrote myself a little poor man's patent And then a few days later, I called my partner, Dror Dan, and he was interested And we've been running ever since. Nice. Okay. And this is sold through your website or do you sell in stores? or where can people buy it Sure. We do sell it at sourcesoap. comot mostost I would say maybe eighty five percent to ninety percent of our sales are direct to consumer But we work with a lot of physical therapists and forward thinking chiropractors and athletic trainers and they do sell it in their offices. We actually just landed a deal to get our non soap tool after we realized that people really embraced this idea of doing, you know do it yourself muscle scraping. We made a lightweight tool that people could fly with, run with, travel with. It's not metal. It's TSA approved. and it's a very lightweight You know we have a lot of people that run marathons and they'll keep it in their vest while they're running and they'll treat their muscles right there on the fly. So we released that. And we were in Vitamin shop. So that's our biggest retailer to date And how are you guys doing in sales It's been a wild ride. We When we originally started, you know, we did sixteen thousand in sales. Then the next year we did thirty three and then the year after that, we did one hundred and twenty. And then we were lucky enough to be on a show called Shark Tank, which was really an amazing experience. And we did about four hundred forty thousand that year. Wow And then we came back down to Earth a little bit in twenty twenty five and we're back down to about one hundred five thousand. So got it So it's pretty good because had that shark tank spike now things have kind of leveled up. Okay, before we dive in further, what is your question for us Sure. So Sarah, listening to your episode of the podcast while I was running, there were so many touch points that I felt I could connect with you and ask you about Our moms being a big inspiration and our life was one of them. But the question that I centered on because I think it's a big issue for a lot of founders in our spot whether you're successful or not We all have that little bit of self doubt Even as our companies and our ideas start to work Self doubt never disappears. It just gets a little quieter How did you learn to trust your instincts and keep moving when you weren't always sure you were right? Qestion. Sarah L Floor. want to bring you in here for this. obbviously self doubt I would just say from the get go I I'm when I have founders who I meet, who have no self doubt Those the ones that worry me. U I was going to say I was going Crack a joke, likeike, self done, I don't know what you're talking about. but. I was gonna say it's not a little bit. I feel like managing self doubt is like so much of the job and I think managing your own psyche is the number one CEO job I started working with this u Mental strength coach last year Um, primarily he, you know, he teaches meditation and we also do a bunch of other things. Journaling is one of them. It is the first time in My cash years of running the business where I'm finding some relief And u You know,ve we've been through hell and back Just like I'll tell you in the past five to six years, Obviously, we had COVID, which almost took out my business, but then we survived that And then twenty twenty three, we had Silicon Valley Bank, which we banked with. That was the scariest seventy two hours But then in twenty twenty four, my lender went under and we had like an urgent capital call, essentially. and that actually was probably the closest I've ever come to losing my business. And Every single one of those moments I really dealt with like enormous self doubt and like ike how the hell did I end up here and what am I doing and I really wish I could just like throw in the towel and call it quits, but for some reason, I can't. I love it too much Yeah. I feel this I feel the same way I feel like without the business be less purpose in my life to overcome those challenges and overcome those emotional hurdles. Business has turned into one of my prime motivators to help other people feel better physically makes me feel accomplished mentally and emotionally that makes sense That's so beautiful. I mean ye, like what more could we ask for, you know, in our lives Yeah, I would double down on on what you said, Sarah. I mean, I think that this is one of the questions Almost every founder feels and certainly I hope everyone, every founder that comes on our show because we do vet them. You know, we want founders who have self doubt to come on the show. U It's critical, right? And I think For the most part, it doesn't entirely ever go away, but it evolves, it becomes easier to manage, right? And they The trick is like, how do I make decisions even when I'm not feeling as confident, right? O like and like even with this show I've been doing for ten years, there are times where I certainly have self doubt. You know, are we doing the right thing? interview sucked? you know, I think that's natural and I think it's important to constantly interrogate how you're doing things. But I think the way to avoid kind of spiraling into just endless uncertainty at least in my case, and Sarah, you may have a different take or similar is I look at signals that actually matter, right? Like data or feedback or when I interact with people. and that is really helpful. And in your case, there' going there's going to be tons of data, right? Like Who's buying this repeatedly and U, what's your, you know, your your customer acquisition cost and and You know, where are the conversion rates and that's going ebb and flow, but it helps to kind of focus and at least for me when I when I start to really think about the fundamentals Even when I have times of self doubt, it just I find that leaning on the data, even when it's not always great news is really helpful because it gives me something to kind of benchmark against. Do that Do that make sense? Yeah, totally. And even if it's even if it's a little more anecdotal in our in our case, you know, there's fence posts that I can identify in the last few years that keep me propped up that get me through those tough times. likeike when we go to the Philelphia Marathon, so many people come over, repeat customers, Oh, I used your product. I PR. I ran my best marathon time ever or I got through my training block with less pain. I mean that's such a rewarding interaction. And it was just it's moments like that, Sarah get you through those nights where you're laying in bed going, what am I doing? you know, especially in this competitive world that we're all in on social media. Yeah. I mean, first of all You're an athlete, so you you're kind of You're already here, but I think this this idea of like it's all about the practice And I will say like For me personally, meditation, which I did not used to do a year ago, has been game changing for me because I I like work myself into these spirals at times and then I like need to find the calm within ultimately like no sense of external validation or or the numbers, like that's not really what's going to lead me to calm. It's like I have to find the calm within me And so, you know, I think that could be anything. It could be a walk in the park, It could be coffee with a friend. It could just be you sitting quietly, like, somewhere, but I think it's like how can you, how can you know that, you know, everything you you need you have right here? And how can you get yourself back to that state? I think that's That's so important. And then I was gonna to say, I feel like David like, you clearly hit on something with this like soap I feel like your mission is bigger than that. And I wonder mayaybe you could channel some of that energy, not into sales and marketing, but maybe it's new product development. because I think you're ono a bigger mission about helping athletes take care of themselves Eily and more affordably. I have some ideas. You have some ideas, right. Okay great too. I mean, the ideas never stop. it's going through them and qualifying them, you know, mentally first. And guy, I wanted to work this in, but you gave me an opportunity. Sarah, my closest thing to meditation that I do is I go for a three or five mile run and I listen to this podcast. I mean, that's moment of Zen. I love that. You've got me through many miles that I didn't want to run Okay, great. well and meditation is awesome. totally agree when I am consistent it is a game changer Hiking in the woods. I try to do that a few times a week. I'm lucky to live near the woods And one more thing, it's a big responsibility, but a dog. I got to take my dog out for a walk twice a day. Me too. Energy release a few times a week. That is like that is really the best. He's one of my best buddies, My little dog, Teddy. He's been in a lot of our social media. So we have a lot of followers on TikTok that like tune in just for Teddy Awesome. David Rstiano, the brand is called Sora Thanks so much for calling. Good luck. Thank you guys. Thank you Thank you no, I love those questions because It's not about like, hey, how do I you know, it's not necessarily about how do I make more money in my business is like how do I just? you know, As you know, running a business is an emotional roller coaster ride. Running anything is it it's really can be really, really hard on your mental health I could not agree more. It's hard because it's hard. And I think sometimes founders need to hear that message We're like, oh, whyy can't just get this right? Look at this other brand, having this kind of success or whatever it is. And You know, it's It's not for the faint of heart. It really isn't and I think we just have to You know, it's not it's an acknowledgement with yourself, like it's hard because it's hard and you chose the hard path. H thing about hard things I think that's the name of the book. Oh, Benoritz. Yeahah. Benorit the founder of Ben Horowitz. Yeahah, That's right. He has a he has a chapter where he basically says like the best CEO's are the ones that didn't give up So you know, I take it to heart and I think all founders need to hear that every now and then We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice. I'm Gy Ros, and we're answering your questions right here on the advice line how I built this lab They say that every day your business is late to AI, you fall two days behind But how do you keep up when the competition is only moving faster? with NetSuite nextext Netueite Next is the next huge leap in how business gets done AI is built into everything you do automatically provides custom insights throughout your day, while AI agents work alongside you to solve problems and handle routine work. And anytime you have a question about anything, Ask Just like you're having a conversation with a colleague If I needed to manage HR, commerce, inventory, CRM, financials, I would use Net Suite Nxt Whether your company earns millions or even hundreds of millions, it's time for NetSuite next where your business meets AI. first time ever, you can try Netuite next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netssuite. 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No spin or judgment the facts, so you can decide juices, sodas, even seeltzers. Sometimes I look at the ingredients and say, what is that? I can't even pronounce it. And that's when I go to goodonowfacts. orgot Good to Knowfacts. org you can check out more than one hundred and forty common beverage ingredients You can find out what they're called, how they're used, and how they're reviewed for safety Now, you can get the facts about what's in your drinks without the chaos of random Google searches. All of this puts you in control because you know what's best for you and your family If you want information about the ingredients in your favorite drink without any spin, To knownowfacts. org is a great place to start Visit good to knownow factacts. org For more information. Welcome back to the Avice Line on How I But this lab. I'm Guy Ros, and today I'm taking your calls with Sarah Lefleur, founder and CEO of MM Leafleur. and let's bring our next caller. Welcome to the Avice Line. You're on. please tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business Hi guysy, and' Sarah. My name's Marnie and I'm calling from a little coastal town on the east coast in Australia. My business is called Tik socks which are fun socks with built in tick protection I've been working on it for over a year and it finally launched last month Awesome, Marnie, welcome to the show. So you are in Australia, Tk socks These are socks that protect you from ticks. so tell me how they work So they have built in Pomhrin, which is factory bonded. I license an existing textile technology And it lasts through seventy washes versus the DIY methods that outdoorsy people like hikers are used to doing, which lasts about six washes Right. So like when I spray deet on my socks or something, I mean, that may not even last one wash, but this basically means you don't have to spray yourself. It's embedded in the material last seventy washes, tellell me how you came up with this idea of So a few years ago I was outside with my newborn son, giving him some Nudy Roody time, which is diaper free time. Yeah. Swatting mosquitoes away from him We were just fresh home from hospital, so I really didn't want to spray him with anything I'm obviously pro insect repellent, but This was a time when we weren't even putting you know gentle soaps in the bath. He was so fresh and new. Yeah so I found myself thinking What if the blanket that he was lying on could have the repellent in it rather than me putting it on his skin. Huh. Okay. All right. so now you are now selling the socks and tell me about How much do the socks cost So they're sold in a box of four for one hundred and nineteen dollars US, which includes shipping. Got. Okaykay, and where are you selling them? Are you selling them through your website or in stores in Australia, where are they being sold So it's direct to consumer just in the US for a couple of reasons. L it's a much larger market to launch and validate the idea And also the insect repellet industry is heavily regulated. so It made more sense to launch in one market and validate rather than You know going global and dealing with all of the regulations of all the different countries at the same time. Okay. And I'm just curious, are ticks as big of a problem in Australia as they are in parts of the US, certainly the East Coast of the U.S They are a huge problem here, but we don't have the Tigborne disease to the extent that the US has. So you know, it's an enormous public health issue over there, whereas it's not the same. over here Got it. Okay. Can you give us a sense I mean, I imagine you're new, so probably sales are maybe a little slow how's it going? Yeah, so I've made almost twenty sales, which I'm actually super excited about. Great. Yeah, every time I get a sale, I do a little happy dance But it's already been a journey. Like I've already learnnt so much. I've had a few posts go viral and then they did that didn't translate into what you would expect viral sales to be. So it's been a roller coaster already. Got it. Okay, beforefore we bring in, Sarah, tell us your question. What do you need help with? My question is, when your product combines functional and emotional value, but people associate it with something that they used to buy cheaply What actually helps justify the price in those first few seconds before you lose their attention All right. Great question. I want to bring you in Sarah because you have dealt with this issue too. I mean, you're you are selling premium products, but at a at a very affordable price now, but I think initially, you were not able to do that Yeah. I mean, Marnie, you were kind of speaking to a lot of the journey that we went through when, you know, I first launched the brand, which is I could sell my products in person Like when my customers tried on, you know, our dresses, our blazers, they really, they got it immediately and they would convert.. Online, it was really, really hard to kind of show people why this black dress was so much more superior to another black dress for a fraction of the price. I think're you're probably running into some of the same challenges here just so I better understand, like you mentioned there are other socks out there that have a similar function to your socks, to Tik socks. What makes Tik sok superior is that it maintains that tick repellent quality for seventy washes versus the five to six, Is that right Yeah, so the five to six is the DIA method. so you can spray and soak yourself, which is it's just a hassle, like it's laborsome and that's where that emotional value comes into the equation. Like it's peace of mind, it's hasustsle free. But there are, likeike Pometethranraded clothing is a thing and there are other socks on the market that exist. My biggest differentiation is the look and feel of them. so they're fun and they're made of breathable bamboo, whereas The alternatives on the market are very utilitarian. And they're marketed towards like, you know, the hunters, the hikers No one's really made it accessible targeting women aged between like thirty and fifty. so Lots of them are momums, they're looking for like some fun socks that they want their husband or themselves or their children to wear rather than you know, like a khaki color Yeah, I mean, what what's interesting to me about these is that they're colorful and interesting and anybody who's been to an REI or, you know a camping store knows what you know getting Permerethrin soaking your socks or even buying the clothing. I mean, a lot of it is just boring, right? And so this is fun. It looks fun. but I think You know, your problem, right is that it's the price point that people kind of are surprised about because right? because they're looking at theyre saying one hundred and nineteen dollars for socks Yeah. And I think that I think that that the way you want to think about it is that You want to reframe that instantly. L you want to kind of push this to moms who are sending their kids to summer camp in Connecticut and Massachusetts where Lyme diseasees you know, rampant, right? kids playing in tall grass. Yeah And and that's where I would sort of focus on the one hundred and nineteen dollars, be really transparent about it. I mean, literally one hundred and nineteen for socks for four pairs of socks and you answer right away. Yeah, because Because we don't sell socks, we sell a summer worth of protection And then suddenly one hundred and nineteen dollars for four socks doesn't seem like a lot. I mean, that's four pairs of socks you're sending your kid to camp with. You're good to go. like I, you know as a parent who sent my kids to camp. who I'm always like thinking about ticks and always looking for ticks after hikes I would really kind of frame your pitch to that that audience. Yeah, absolutely it's sort of like you're leaning more into the emotional value, which is I've had this tug of war of likeike thats that's where my head originally went and that's where I wanted to go. And then I got a lot of questions of, but what actually is it? Like what's the actual repellent? and what's the active ingredient? Like very technical question. whichich you should show, which you should show your website. I would show a comparison between like a microscopic image of the fabric, you know, regular fabric versus your fabric And I would show that on your site. I would show that in social media that you do. I would hammer that home because I think people are going to want to see that. I was gonna say first of all, I am that mom that migrates to Connecticut for some part of the summer. We are in like Tick city So I'm with Guy on this one. The first people that I thought about buying this product for are my kids. Yeah, of course, I'm worried about myself too, but you know, I know better than to roll around in the field. My kids do not. Martie, I think This is just my hypothesis I don't think Direct to Consumer is the right distribution channel for you. I think it's really, really hard to have a single product U a fairly niche single product. thrive on direct to consumer, but I think you would kill it at a lot of outdoor stores, and I think you would kill it with the camp crowd, like Gy said. And my thought was, you know at a lot of these American camps Parents have to purchase a lot of gear, a lot of t shirts, whatever. bunch of stuff. Crazy amounts to get their kids ready for camp even if it's just a day camp. And I wonder if you can actually partner with these camps directly to say You know I have created the best socks for your campers U I will donate ten percent, twenty percent to your camp. If you agree to distribute this link, And just see if you can pick up, get some traction that way. And that's still direct to consumer, but I think like almost a business to business type arrangement. Yeah. I'm also I know you said pricing, but I'm just doing a quick Google search comparison. Like a lot of these Tik socks, theyre like LLBan has one for twenty seven dollars or you know, I'm not saying that they're exactly like your product, but It makes me think the pricing may not be so much the issue. Like it sounds like the market is already priced around there And I think your products are so fun and exciting and they really stand out U when laid side by side by something more neutral and bland and beige, like you said. So I do think you really have a shot you know, winning versus your competitor here, but I don't think this should be direct to consumer Oh. I wonder Sarah whether you can split split the what's the what's the cliche I'm looking for in half. Slit the difference? Yeah. Yes, which is You could have a to you can continue the D toC side because obviously that's where you get the profitability. Yeah. But you may want to look at a distributor in the US who's going to work with, you know, there's still a lot of independent outdoor stores in America. There's REI, which is a terrific brand to work with and you could even, you know, have that distributor work with you to try to pitch them down the road. But other thing that you might want to do, you know, because a distributor certainly is not cheap is I would just email camp directors and see what they say.'s you email a hundred of them You know, Thty of them might get back to you Yeah,ot nothing to lose. It's a great idea.ot nothing to lose and I think they're not used to getting pitches like this is my guess. So They may just be more open to it versus like, yes, of course, like be awesome to be in REI. L that's where Marnie's headed for sure. Yeah. But like really understanding who your customer is and just going directly to them through this medium rather than, you know, performance marketing and ads, those are going to be so expensive. And ye it's just going to cost way more than you know, the business can probably afford right now. Yeah try this route. I'm so curious to hear how it goes. And it builds a brand. And the other thing is some of these camps, all these camps, they have merch. I mean, some of them might say, hey, you could even suggest it Would you be interested in a collaborating where we put our logo on the socks? Yes, Thankk you so much. so much food for thought. I really appreciate it. Sarah, last minute advice. any last minute wisdom from Marie Oh, you made the product fun and I love the packaging. I was got to say, the packaging kind of sold me. I was like, I want to open that box. So great great job on the branding and making it fun Thank you. Yeah. Conggrats, Martny. The brand is called Tick socks. Martnie Shanahan, thanks for calling and good luck. Thank you so much, Ke, Sarah. Thank you Yeah, I'm super paranoid about ticks. and I'm in California so we don't really have Lyme disease as much. It does occur here. but I have picked off ticks, I don't know by you, like with tweezers and put them in baggies and sent them off to get tested because I'm so paranoid. Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. Chris is from your husband. Town of Old Lyme. Yeah, Chris, my husband is from the town of Old Lyme. Oh, he's from Oh, he is that's wow. Yeah. so you know, the birthplace of Lyme disease. But ye ye, when we take out our dog on a hike, he It's like rare that he doesn't come back with thatast twenty ticks. Right every time. Every time. And then they jump on us. Yep. Correct. So it's a real pain point for a lot of people. a niche one potentially. twenty five to thirty dollars. for relief for the anxious parent and I think a lot of parents could get over that, that price point. Yeah Man, ticks are scary. and for some reason, there's only a vaccine for dogs. Dogs, We figured it out for dogs. Hopefully we can figure it out for our kids. Oose the human one, yeah. All right, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with one more caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Ros, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab Whether you're starting a website from the ground up or thinking about a complete overhaul Framer is a complete website platform that can help launch and keep on improving your site in one place. Thousands of businesses from early stage startups to Fortune five hundreds are choosing to build their websites in Framer where changes take minutes instead of days Framer is the pro site builder for creators, teams, businesses, anyone that wants a professional site and cares enough to get every detail right You can close the gap between AI generated ideas and a ready to launch website with Framers agents Aents and humans work together to make your site work Agents bring speed and scale, while you bring taste, judgment, and control Learn how you can get more out of your site from a frramer specialist or get started building for free today at framer dot com slash built for thirty percent off of Framer P annual plan That's framer dot com slash built for thirty percent off frramer d. com slash built. Rules and restrictions may apply This message is brought to you by Apple Card Gple card is designed with your iPhone and mind making it easy to get started and even easier to use. Apple Card is a no fee credit card you can apply for right from the wallet app on your iPhone AppleCard has no annual fee, no late fees, and no foreign transaction fees. No fees, pereriod. Every credit card should be this easy Get started in the wallet app today subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from seventeen point four nine percent to twenty seven point seven four percent based on credit worthiness rates as of january first, twenty twenty six. Existing customers can view their variable APR in the wallet app or at card. apppple. comot Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch, terms and more at Applecard. com Welcome to the device line on how How I Bilt this lab. I'm Guy Roos. and my guest today is Saraha Leflur, founder and CEO of the womomen's clothing brand. Em Leflleur, Sarah, are you ready for our next call? Let's do it. All right, let's bring in our final callor to the show. Welcome to the advice line. You're on with Saraha Flur founder of MMF Floor,lease us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. Hi Sarah, Hi guy I'm David Bronkey. I'm calling in from Brooklyn, New York I'm co founder of Siblings, which is an Eco home fragrance brand tackling throwway culture through clean. refillable candles David, welcome to the show. Thank you for calling. right. You're in Brooklyn Siblings is the brand. It's So you sell candles. So I'm thinking like we just received like one of those dipik candles as a gift and h you know, you burn it and then I don't I hope we reused the jar for like coins or something. That's not what this is. You don't just throw away the glass container. Exactly. ye. so we're making candles that are better for you and better for the planet. you know, It's a candle you never have to throw away. So you simply reuse it through scents and seasons with our easy candle refills. And these refills are what come in one hundred percent compostable bags. and all you have to do is melt the wax poured into your forever vessel, and you have a new candle. Okay, so just to clarify, you get these nice kind of containers ceramic or whatever they're made out of. And Do you like put it in the microwave to melt? Like how does it is it like little pellets of wax? like How that work? Yeah it's different. So you're right, It is a ceramic vessel. We actually have our ceramics. It's ninety five percent recycled clay. And then the bag, it's one hundred percent compostable. and inside of it is a block of wax. And you stick that bag in the microwave, melt it takes a couple of minutes and then pour that into your forever vessel or your candle that's empty and you just are able to refill easily. Okay. Got it. And all right, so tell me a little bit about the business. When did you launch it Back In in twenty nineteen, I launched this business with my sister, hence the name siblings. We grew up on a horse farm outside of Buffalo, New York, and we just watched her parents live very sustainably. I mean, it was limited material things, everything passed down and fixed, and the biggest compost pile you've ever seen behind the barn. So we just had't had that sustainable mindset instilled in us early on Years later, Eva, my co founder, is living in Stockholm and she's surrounded by incredible Scandinavian design. And like a lot of people there, she was burning endless candles through the long dark winters. And when she kind of looked closer at all these candles she wass burning, she just something was off. Sbody didn't feel right. You know, it's this beautiful ritual that's supposed to bring you joy and you endre up throwing it away again and again, and that doesn't feel good. So that's ultimately what led to siblings. love And all your sales are direct to consumer right now? Primarily all direct to consumer, but we do have a few retailers such as Crredo Beauty and Nordstrom. And are your sales one offs or are they subscriptions or how does that 's split Yeah, it's actually the subscription side has been growing because we've started what we call a seasonal box. It's curated. so each season there's three new scents that a subscriber can get. Otherwise, though, I would say it's pretty split. A lot of people kind of just try to pick and choose the fragrances that fit with them and what they're looking for at that time. or they find a favorite and they just kind of get the same one over and over again. Got it. And give me a sense of your sales. How didd you guys do last year Last year, we did over two million do in sales. So the business is doing well. Amazing. Yeah, and we've kind of been in that low seven figure though for the last few years and we're trying to break out of that Okay. before we dive in further, what is your question for us Yeah, so I mean, I get for ages, Americans have been in the habit of buying a candle, disposing of it when it's done. You know, some people try to recycle it, try to repurpose it. but the reality is most just end up in the trash And it really is negalous to the way people thought about plastic water bottles fifteen, twenty years ago. We bought that bottle, we drank it, threw it away. Now that's almost unthinkable as we've embraced reusable bottles. And that's what candle vessels should be So the question we have is What are the keys to shifting consumer behavior towards refilling something that people are used to throwing away Okay, great question. Sarah Flora, I want to bring you in Before you answer David's question, any thoughts or questions for him Well, I was just gonna say, I love the concept. I think everything you said rings really true to me, especially as someone who runs a fashion brand, like this idea of like You don't want to be the person who's just like making more crap and putting it out on the world. and I think it's so beautiful that you and your sister founded this business, and I would say it's genuinely the first time I've heard of anything like it. So well done for coming up with that angle and then also executing on the product side. because I imagine that wasn't easy either. Thank you I was wondering with candles because I don't It's not that I've never bought a candle for myself, but I usually receive them as gifts. And I do have scents that I like, but I haven't been particularly loyal to one scent or to one candle brand. I'm curious what percentage of your Consumers are buying it a gift to someone else versus buying it for themselves It's something that we've tried to find obviously through surveys and other things and we can kind of see when the shipping address is different from the billing address, you know that sometimes a little bit of a telltale.. And we try to we try to find out who is gifting. and it's still a small percentage and I think that's partly because We're not maybe marketing it as well as a gift. We kind of tend to talk more towards the usersers themselves, but I think you're right, candles are a very giftable item and we might be missing that a Yeah, I yeah, I agree. I mean,, you know, I was thinking about the question, right? Like how do you shift consumers? This is a question we get a lot because this is a heavy lift, How do you get people to start to think about this in different ways? One of the reasons why I was curious about your subscriber base is because that really is seems to me that is a huge opportunity, right whereere you you create that habit of getting a refill or ordering a refill when you get close to the end of the candle. Are you like When you send out a candle to somebody with, you know the scense, are you able to kind of time maybe a typical burn life cycle to send them an email, or maybe you might even have a phone number like an SMS to remind them, like, hey, it's time to order a refill Yeah, absolutely. And I think that I mean, we have a really strong retention rate because of that. and what we tend to do is, you know, some people are burners someome people are two, three months, they're just a little bit slower. and we kind of try to see that through our data of when they're going to be out and try to present something to them, whether it's a new scent or their favorite scent at the right time Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting is if you can sell the idea of Oh less friction, right? Like if you I think of soda stream. Soda stream, most people were just buying soda right. But then once it became easy, you just go to the store and just get the seO cartridges. Lots of people adopted that and love it and that has become relatively low friction for most people. And so That to me is like the idea of like this is easier than just going and buying a new candle. But there's one other thing and I think Sarah, this really speaks to what you do which is I'm not convinced that eco friendly and sustainable and better for the planet actually matter as much. I actually I actually think right now What matters to, especially your kind of consumer is like the person who buys fewer things, but better things, like that's in a lot of ways, that's the new luxury to have fewer things that actually are of value