Reflecting on Past Leadership Decisions

rubish our youngest listener full of fruit cakes? T tenen ideas, and one of them's brilliant becausecause it's like, well, though was you guys. Too racist or not racist enough.'s not help. I like the plasmic nature of your de b Welcome, welcome on and all. Welcome to how to win an election. I'm Hugo Rifkin sheltering from the heat generated by feverish speculation about Annie Bernon's cabinet, the equivalent of a couple of small nuclear reactors, at least all that. And I'm joined as ever by forer Labour insider Sally Morgan. Sally hello. Hello. Have you spent the week playing Fantasy Cabinet Manager? Not yet. Not yet. No No. Give me time. Okay, I will give you time. Mbe you can mayaybe you can do it for us now. We're also joined by policy Queen Polly Mackenzie. Her policy sens is tingling right now Yeah Some new things might happen, isn't it exciting? It is very exciting in a way. And Tori Per and Times cololumist, fan of fruit cake, but not of loonies or closet racists It's Danny Prinklstein. Hello Danny. Hello hello, you do. Sally played real cabinet creation. so she doesn't have to do fantasy ones. When I got to the end of Andy Burnham's book, which I was only part of the way through, part of the way through There is which Sally referred to the mention about her in the seat that Andy Burnham got, which implies that she didn't help him much with the seat, but she was just there. When I finally got to the acknowledgements, there is Sally for having helped his career. and I real although it says in the text that she didn't fix the seat, when I got to the acknowledgements, I realised she did Be otherwise she wouldn't have been there. So just remember who we're dealing with here. Well, look, we're going to talk about obviously assembling a cabinet, assembling a Downing Street team, whether to move some of them up to the north of England. And whether Danny is right to say that Andy Burnham has a chance to slow down that revolving door to number ten. I love the bit in your column where you refer to I know it's not your joke, but you refer to how number ten has come to resemble an Airbnb because many people are moving in and out of it. Thank by Chelsea friend. Oh very very good gag. Let's dive right in Sally look, we're at the stage where almost everybody is being tipped for almost every job. Every Labour MP is going out of the way to say they've always been a fan of Andy Burnham Can he afford to take his time assembling his cupbet? Well, he's obviously going to have to do it the day after him becomes Prime Minister. He might be quietly doing it. He might be doing quiet work now. U But I think he is being very, very tight. I don't think anybody knows what they've got or are going to get. And it may be that's because he hasn't done the work yet. I mean he only had, you know he only had James starting as chief of staff effectively yesterday. So He's not got many people around him yet who really understand whyite all. But hasn't he been doing the work for the last two years? Hasn't he beenying there at night staring at the ceiling and going I put him there and I put no? No, I don't think so. No I don't I think E everyone else has. No, I don't think so I's only become relatively recently clear that he would become Prime Minister. I know that he's been in play for about a year. Before that, don't forget, Keiststammer had just won a landslide majority. So when this book that I referred to when he was writing that and publishing it, the idea that he was going to become prrime Minister within two years of this landslide didn't seem that likely Can you do it without creating lots of enemies? He's going to make enemies of by? you can't you've always got to balance all sorts of things when you're putting a cabinet together. So above all, one would hope that you go for sort of capable people because ultimately that's really important. And people who can lead a political team also really important because sometimes you can have sort of maverick brilliance, if they cant lead lead junior ministers and the wider team and give direction, it won't work. So you've got to pick the right people. But you've also, of course you have to look at political balance to an extent, off course you do And you do he will have to think, hard, I would have thought about many people he wants to push out of the current cabinet because yes, some of them may go gracefully but some may not. And if they go not gracefully and they have following in the PLP problematic I mean did David Cameron sort of made a lot of enemies by not giving them jobs and by sacking them from jobs. and it was a sort of understated aspect of even the Brexit referendum, all the people he'd sort of alienated by not having them in the core team The first thing happened when he became Prime Minister was that the Conservative Party didn't win the election fully. It was in coalition with the liiberal Democrats. That meant that quite a lot of people who held front bench positions, then couldn't be put in the government. He did try and move some of those people in later, but it definitely caused a problem People are are Passive politics, you know inevitably and their feelings and their feeling that they ought to be leader. And I remember Talking to somebody who I thought had a potential for a really strong ministerial career and he basically started to poke at George and Osborne and David Cameron in a way that made it very difficult for him to be appointed to anything. And I could not understand what he was trying to do, but I think in the end I realized he felt resentful that they were the leadership when he felt he had the talent to do it and actually did have quite a lot of talent. so I saw what his point was, but I think you just So people do feel those kind of heart feelings. they're really important part of politics. Polly, have you been following the slightly forlorn machinations of Rachel Reeves? She's saying today that she supports Andandy Bernam to be PM and Sky News has reported that her team has been working the phones to make the case for her staying She's not going to stay, is she I think it's unlikely that the Prime Minister wouldn't want his own chancellor But I think, you know There is For all that Danny talks about personal feelings and those are right, you know, actually having some humility about public service is also Really, really valuable And you know, when William Haig, who had been the leader and then came back was an excellent foreign secretary, David Cameron came back as a foreign secretary.'s willingness to take a different role which seems to be part of what's being briefed about Rachel Reeves as well, seems to me, actually a sign of really admirable character that she has She valued contributing to, you know the nation's life, and she would value carrying on, ood But it doesn't happen very often. Danny, the BBC's Henry efman, formerly of this parish, says you have to go back to nineteen eighty three to find a chancellor who took a less seni role, which is when Margaret Thatcher moved Jeffrey Howe to foreign seecretary. So really it's unusual for a Chancellor to carry on. One can sort of made it make a Ned Sahari case, but it's pretty fulllorn too. Yes. And obviously, you know, John Major moved Norman on out and offered him something else but he didn't take Yeah. So yes, Jeffrey How was the only example. He actually didn't feel he did want stay as Chancellor but she wasn't moving it out to slight him. she wants to get rid of Franis Pain She wanted to appoint Cecil Parkinson to be Foreign Secretary, but Cecil Parkinson informed him her before the before she did it that had had this relationship that made it difficult. so he couldn't be appointed. So she ends up appointing Geffre How how theoreign Secretary thought he'd He was originally slated according to her notebooks and the archives show to be homeome Secretary, which is what he expected, which would probably have been a bigger step down, interesting in status, but possibly more significant in terms of the actual role. So foreign Secretary' has gone through this sort of odd thing where it retains this very strong prestige Prime mininisters do so much of their own foreign policy that it declines. I do wonder just a little bit whether he might be tempted to offer Kst arma the foreign office. because it might help him with foreign relations. I was talking to someone yesterday who said, know one of the problems of you changing your Prime minister so often is that all the foreign leaders wonder whether anything they were told before still holds. So there is something to that You can't appoint him toomest a big domestic role because he's too unpopular. But if he makes him foreign secreary, doesn't that mean that he's He's essentially still the prrime Minister abroad and Andy Burnham's left doing kind of half the job. You know, I think I mean, I've thought this for quite a long time. I don't think you will, but I thought and I think it's become harder. I thought quite a while ago that's what I would do because Um I actually think Kim would be good at it. I always thought he'd be a better foreign secretary than Prime Minister. I never thought he was going to be a particularly good prrime Minister Sadly, I think I was proved right in that. But I did think he'd be a good foreign secretary. And I look at David Cameron, and I think one of the things that's quite interesting if you've been Prime Minister and you become foreign Secretary, is when you go to other countries you see the Prime Mis because they know you. So you don't just see the foreign minister, but you actually see the Prime Minister. And I think that was one of the things that was really interesting with Cameron that it elevated British foreign policy in a sense in terms of the network and the contacts. It's not to be sneezed at in view. I mean, wouldt it wouldn't it just ween burnem that he'd be it would seem weird when he was like he'd barely be the guyeting Donald Trump, you know, he'd he'd be brain checkking don't know I don't know whether P wouldnt mind very much about that. I think he's very focused on domestic politics. It's what It's where his interest is. it's what he wants to be preoccupied by. He won't want to spend his time abroad all the time, but inevitably that happens. So in many ways I actually think it would play to both Australia. He's hardly said a word about foreign policy at any point. He said a lot about other things which I think as people underestimate, just how much is out there of what Andy Burnham thinks and feels and believes and wants to do What's interesting is very almost nothing on defence, almost nothing on foreign policy So It will be very interesting to see what he does and that. I'm not saying he's going to do that. I don't think it would remotely make him look smaller. I think it would make him look bigger, it'd be more effective. It wouldd be good for labor unity the only but it's not something he has to do, Kisama. and will walk off and I don't think he'll prove to be an undermining force outside, it's just that It's something that it's something that he could do, and I just think it's worthwhile bearing in mind. Is there something to be said, Pollly for a Prime M minister who is sort first and foremost very obviously focused on the domestic I think so You know, one of the reasons why Trump was so successful getting elected was because he basically gave the impression he just wanted to stop doing foreign policy, much more kind of like America first We're just not interested in being the world's policeman in defending other countries, any of that stuff He obviously has not honoud those pledges and commitments in the last couple of years as Pident. But the story of Like sort of stop the world I want to get off. It's really compelling politically and saying let's make Britain more energy independent, let's make Britain more more able to kind of stand on our own feet in terms of not needing immigration probleblem is that You can tell that story really strongly, and a prime Minister who doesn't flit around the world caring about things would probably be more popular The challenge is that the world doesn't stop And our economic fortunes our national security are enormously influenced by and the decisions of America, our relationships with the European Union. And if you're going to strengthen our economy, you've just got to be out there talking to those people Let's talk a bit about Ed Milliband because you know, he is I mean, it seems contentious, but he is certainly one of the front runomers to be Andy Burnham's Chancellor Look, Burnham himself, Sally served in the Blair and Brown governments, as did Ed Milliband. It's hard Burnham, I guess sort was times on both sides, Ed Milliband was very clearly on the Gordon Brown side. wouldould Andy Berham be worried about the sort of the spect of sort of, you know rekindling Blair Brown style rivalry, if you put on. No, I don't think so. No, I don't think so. I mean, I think I think actually in some ways In some ways, the opposite almost in the sense that I think I think they are I think they're close, I think they're good friends It's more what would people read into the appointment, I think. I guess, particularly the market. So Andy Andy as, I remember him, was, yes, he did serve in. He wasn't really a blairright and he wasn't really a brownight. he was Andy Burnham. I mean I would say he was close to anybody. He was close to David Blanket. So whether that makes you a blanketight, I don't know But anyway, that's the person I would say. If I was trying to nail him, I'd say that's the person he was actually really, really close to And I think Ed clearly obviously worked he worked for Gordon, but he was away for quite a lot in the second term, he was away. He was He was at Harvard, he was visiting feellllowship or something. He was not around that much. So it was obviously later on that they will have spent real time together. So I can ask you, what was James Penneel's relationship like with Ed Milliban I think friendly, I don't think they were particularly close politically. I mean, Ed was always somebody who was quite even though there were lots of challenges, shouldall we say, between the different teams, teams of advisers, Ed was not somebody that didn't get on with people. So he was around But I think they got on. But they didn't work together closely politically. I can remember one a Ding Street former Downing Street advisor tell telling me that that Ed was known in Tony Blair' office is the Emissery from Planet F worord. Yes. I think that I to remember that. Yes, indeed. Yes But we're going to come back to James Penoneell in a minute. So just to gra for that, Polly. You are the president of this podcast's Ed Middiband Fan Club Population one. O in a bit sometimes. Would you like to make the case for him, as Chancellor Well, it's funny because I actually I really took against Edmela Band twenty ten to twenty fifteen when he was the leader. And I remember you know the day when Nick Cleg made his resignation speech going, oops, I've, you know, destroyed a political party. But he did that with a sense of deep humility and acknowledgement Still confident that he'd done the right thing, but you know and Ed Milliband gave this speech on the same day, you know, an hour later and obviously I was emotionally overwaght at the time, but it was all like, yeah, it was a great ride and like millerfandom and I just despised him However, I honor journey. G policy making is like what you get into government for I really admire what Ed Milliband has done as the Secretary of State. I admire the extent to which he was actually prepared for it in depth in opposition. I mean some stuff's changed, of course He was the only person who took mission driven government seriously, which is not about having five things that you put on a pledge card, was about actually a different coordinating principle for how you get government, the private sector and civil society to operate together towards common goals across the nation. And that is the right theory of how to do governing in the twenty first century And he's the only person who like read the memo. as an intellectual, I can see him taking that into into the treasury. The challenge is though that The treasury is the biggest barrier to mission driven government that there is. So does he go in and immediately just get catch treasury itis? or does he go in and actually allow us to do radical changes like changing how we do accounting officer rules around departmentals to break silos so we can achieve goals? Do we think differently about how investment is counted whether the investment is for defense, security or the things that you call investment like buying schools and hospitals, which are great and important, but not actually investments I think that could be really exciting So I think it's important that Andy Burnham points to Chancellor who wants to do the things that Andy Burnham wants to do and I don't agree with the idea that that there is nothing that Andy Burnham really wants. There's going to be a question now about whether he has got the courage to see those things through, whether he feels he's got the mandate because I don't actually I would put in premis. There's lots he wants to do that I don't think he ever asked anybody about because we you know, he put them in a book and made a few speeches that were made in Manchester, but I you know, they weren't One of the reasons Kir Starmer didn't put those things forward is because he didn't think he could win if he did. So you know so I think there's a big question about a mandate. However, he does have some things he wants to do. So the question is whether Ed Milliband would do them because he's a good executive and because he's a bit like Michael Gove he's fixed on what he wants to actually achieve and he's quite good at making people do what he wants to achieve or would he get in the way because the things that he wants to achieve are not what Andy Burnon wants to achieve Part of it is, so Andy Bernham does believe, you know if you believe what he thingss he said before in a in a green industrial revolution and he was in favor of the twenty eight billion pounds that Ed Milliband wanted. You remember that from before the election. But on the other hand, Andy Berham's big thing is let's make the treasury and treasury rules less London focused and distribute money around the country. that is absolutely critical to him. The question is whether Ed Milliband is too London therefore, right? Is it know it's particularly if you were to appoint a kind of Londonish foreign seecretary or homeome secretary, you'd then then end up where Labour has been, which is one London leader after another. Is there also, I mean just look, I know Kiss Arm is probably not going to be his foreign secretary. But if you have Andy Bernan with Kiss armor as his foreign secretary and Ed Milliband as his chancellor, he's going to look like a little boy walking on. I don think'ing from his parents hands. I don't think you could really do both. It's less that than that those are hardly winners of the popularity contest of the year. So there is a political problem with doing it. But as we've said from the beginning and Polly is always very insistent on this, but I completely agree with it. The key thing now is he's got to make his government work. So the most the first question he should is not what will the public think? because frankly, they won't think about it that much. The question is, will it actually deliver what he thinks is necessary to change the country? And we said that after the last general election, Kirama didn't really know what he wanted to do He didn't have people therefore who could do the things that he didn't know he wanted to do. This actually could be different and he's therefore got to choose people who are going to do it. So the question with Ed Milliband is, does he buy into this agenda canan he do it? When you express it like that you have to think to yourself maybe he actually does. And so if he does, then I think it would be a smart choice, even though You know, I can't confirm the things that Andy Bonen wants to do are not what I would do, but I'm not going to become Prime Minister. Yeah, sure. understand. coming up, we're going to talk about James Pennell, becoming Andy Bonone' Chief ofa Also about the King of the North going north Welcome back to Hashman Election with Sally, Polly Danny, etcetera. I'm etcetera. As look, as well as a pointint in government, Andy Burnham needs to build a team to join him in Downing Street and one eye catching name, James Pernell, who served with him in the Blair Brown years will be his chief of staff. Sally is this reassuring news for the Blair rights? Is it reassuring news for everyone? I think it's reassuring news for the country, actually. I mean the country won't care for those people who want the government to be functional and to be purposeful and to get things done and for the civil serervice to be reformed and for policy to be followed through. I think it's very good news. Okay, Polly, you've worked osely with James Panell in the past, and you also know how Downing Street works. Is he going to make a good chief of sta I think he's going to be excellent. So I worked with him for a couple of years. He was the Vice Chancellor at University of the Arts, London. And that's a sort of interesting thing to me I mean has there been anybody who's ever worked in Downing Street who has formerly been the Vice Chancellor of a University? I genuinely don't think so. Are they similar gigs? team big team of people. Because I mean, you know, UAL' is half a billion pound a year organisation, pretty substantial actually. Common room full of egos. But also crucially, you have to govern a university like a city. It's not a command and control structure. It is everybody is sort of slightly there working at the university rather than for the university in the academic community. So so I think he had a lot of skills from that job, from his job in kind of lobbying, running the flint I'm sure they would say they're not lobbyists regulatory consultancy And before that the BBC. So again, that's the other thing that's notable about him is he he left politics to do per jobs in the real world and has a lot of experience there He' he's got, you know, deep values and beliefs. he and deeepper understanding of the creative industries and from a kind of foreign policy perspective, The soft power gle. So James and I put together a report with a brilliant woman called Eliza Easteron on on how to better leverage the UK's soft power a few years ago, which led to the creation under David Lammy of a Soft powerower Council which, you know, as has been reported that since David Lamey stepped down as foreign secretary it' sort of fallen apart and, you know, this nobody cares. I can imagine that, for example, being reanimated by James, though it w won't be the top thing on the list And again, you know, one of the nation's absolutely critical assets is the knowledge economy universities. And so his understanding of International students do not to crowd British people out of universities, but in fact pay for British people to afford to go to university It's just us He's a real grown upp. He's really smart. He never stopped being in love with politics, I think. poly policy. actually one of his proudest achievements and he was critically involved in setting up the Pensions Commission, which is one of the best pieces of policy redesign in a generation, frankly Um And he understood that you needed to both do the serious policy work and change the hearts and minds, do lots of public work. and he was open about actually working on a cross party basis to get that out. add the point, which is temperament. so I think I also share this view it's interesting that I share it because although we sound like the James Panll Fang Club, this is just this is because we all work with him in different ways. and That's the view that you get. That's the view that you get from doing so One of the crucial thing is temperament, That is a crucial part of being Chief of staff. It's a very influential role, but you do need somebody who's got enough authority and self confidence to deal with the cabinet and other major players, but doesn't either think they should or try to dominate the Prime Minister or become seen as the kind of major play and I think he's temperamentally very well suited to it. I did wantce to ask Sally a question because we talked about a little bit before we came on air and I'd want you to share that about his politics because one of the big question that arises is know if you're thinking of Ed Milliband to be Chancellor and you're thinking about James Pannell to be Chief of staff, is this a vast gulf? That's why I ask the question I did about Ed Milliband Do it suggest that you know a bit of him' doing the book was Steve Rotherham, who was BBS to Jeremy Corbyn? and the other bit is appointing James Pennell to be his chiefopff. Who is this guy? But you actually had an interesting view about Pennell's politics? Well, I mean I think James has got his own politics. I don't think I mean he was a fantastic bad minister, ultimately Cabinet minister and work very closely with Tony Blair, but I wouldn't define him per se as a bllair, right certainly wasn't Bown I mean he didn't get on with Gordon. And was that was almost about style rather than content.. Yes. I think it was about style. I think it was about do it my way or no other way. I think James wants to argue policy through in a very constructive way, but he wants to have the discussion and he wants to get somewhere and then he wants to work out how do you build consensus That was not really Gordon sttyle. So that didn't play for James. And James also just thought I don't need to do this. I'm not going to stay in politics if this is how it's got to be. But I mean I think one of the things that's really interesting is that I remember talking to ministers who are a lot older than James, who worked, particularly in DWP actually, and in fact in culture. to all said to me, he was best it was the best team they'd ever been part of. and that's because he was a good polical he was a good leader and a good political leader, but he's a good team leader and he worked to other civil servants as well, which I think plays well. But I think his politics, I don't think it's yin and yan. I don I don't think Andy will be as crude as saying I want a bit of that and I want a bit of that to make this all mixed together But I don't think so therefore I don't think it would be very helpful to think Well, they've got James and he's brackets' Blair and therefore, we'll have Ed because he's a bit of Brown. I think life's just Is it more complicated than that and it's well moved on from there anyway. I just want to make a tiny thing which is he's obviously still got to extract himself from Flint. and though you said it wasn't a lobbyist, they wouldn't see themselves as that. But they are registered lobbyists. So you know, as you know, and therefore there will be some questions about that. I only pointed out because these things have a habit of tripping people up particularly because of the Peter manan's. It's very clear yesterday that he'd resigned and had no financial link back still with him. And he only worked there a year, eighteen months? Before we move on from this though, Danny Andy Burnham. Ed Mill band, James Panell, You've still got Vvette Cooper floating around, maybe David Lamy too. This is not looking a bit like a sort of retreat to the comfort zone of twenty years ago. Well it's interesting. twenty years ago indeed Well, I don think you could call David Lam me that. And after all these people were advisor generation they were quite young. So they were all in the cabinet though That's true. It's true thats well not Lami wasn't I don't think. Was he not yet in the cabinet? No No A you know, I mean, which he's actually in tells his own story, but still. so, you know, there's there's obviously a question over that, but I I really in the end, I think people t care that much about that. They didn't know, you know, I mean even we just stumble over the question of whether David Lamming was in the cabinet. So I don think most people are kind of going, I'm bit worried about recycling him. But so The only thing that matters now is that Andy Burnham knows what he wants and has got a strategy and this which I think he does and has got a strategy for achieving it, which is a more open question. And'll then that's the only thing that will make his success and whether his exact personnel should only be selected in order to help him to achieve those things. That's the crucial thing with the Chancellor. Does he share the agenda? Can he help create a strategy for getting him from where he is now to where he wants to be? And that's the only thing that should be on his mind as he chooses. Let's talk a bit about what parts of the agenda might be. Mark from Essex has emailed and of course you can email on how to win out thetimes dot com dot UK He writes Hi, Polly, Danny, Sally, and Hugo Thank you for the podcast. I'm a huge fan of' never missed an episode. As of you may know, I'm a huge fan of the disruptive idea, big supporter of votes for babies, probably. So here's one. should Andy relocate Parliament to Manchester? At least for the time it takes to do it up? It would save billions on the cost of refurbishment, open the eyes of MPs to life outside the M twenty five, and tactically might wrong fooot opposition leaders who literally wouldn't know their way around. And it might mean throwing the monopoly board in the air for the civil serervice, which might provoke more change there too. It would show he's prepared to think the unthinkable and shake things up. What does the panel think? Well Mark, Annie Burnham seems to be on your wavelength sort of because we learn from the FT that he wants to set up a number ten in the north, moving at least parts of the Dining Street operation to Manchester. his team have declined to comment on this when it was put to them But you never know, Polly, what's not to like do like the very disruptive idea of moving Parliament to Manchester. and in fact he can't be that diligent a listener because I've talked about it here before and he obviously hasn't been keeping notes. And there's a little part of me that's quite seduced by this idea of Andy Burnham's, assuming that's true. of basically gets given an opportunity to go to Manchester once a week, keep touch with his constituency, broadcast a sense of being in the North And I like that. The risk is which part of the Downing Street operation? because it's not going to be the private office, it can't be the ceremonial people. it can't be the Cs team. What you mean? It could just be him. Well it could just be him. And so therefore I get it. The idea is because if you do build a new parliament in Manchester or convert something and you've still got to do up parliament in London to stop it just falling into the sea or poisoning babies or something, then you know that's a lot of money I think though this is just a little bit too clever as a sort of simplistic solution because you need a much stronger story about really what is happening in Manchester that is different and why you're there. I think I came up with two other ideas. One is actually to go for Blackpool instead, you know, I just want to check It's very hard to. I just want to check are these satirical ideas or it sometimes hard to know. Yeah. No, know, I'm being disruptive Well so it's super hard to get to Blackpool but it is What if if you think of what Trump has with large conference Eactly. So I don't think he should put I don' think you should put the number ten operation there. That doesn't make any sense. but actually thinking about a kind of Mar a Lago slash Camp David slash aspen retreat so that you could actually in Blackpool In Blackpool needs turning around. And if you want to symbolize like a new hope for Britain actually, Manchester's amazing. It's been amazing for a really long time and he's been part of that, but actually, if he wants to tell a story about turn around and hope for forgotten places Just being in Manchester is kind of annoying to Blackpool or Retford or I'm just going to stop listing places that will be offended that I think that they're a bit rubbish. I think creating a destination, actually what he should get rid of is checkers. That's what I said Don't do checkers. He's not listening well enough, is he? because I've been That's what I said last week Take people there and make that the place where you have summits and conferences. And if that means you need to put it in an airport, then so be it.ly your face. No I mean I'd like P Gckin able to visualize look of incredibulity on Danny Finlstein's face. So not only no If we captioned what the wouldn't it? Blackpool isn't pollly's actually probably is one of our better traers. shots fire' not it's not one of it's along with the babies's not a very good idea. Mo on. the truth is that You have to have a centre somewhere and otherwise you just sort of spread the MPs all around the country. But I do think Two things. first of all, it's not in itself a bad idea to move some part of the operation. Chequers is quite a good idea. The House of Lords is another possibility somewhere else other than London. You've got to, I think in a parliamentary democracy, you've got to have your administrative centre and your parliament in the same place. and I'm not sure how much you achieve after a while by moving that to Manchester Pi correctly said is already, but I think it's strong already quite strong. I think it's a strong idea. Secondly, it is very much part of what he wants to try to do. and it fits very well with his message. and I think be valuable in itself. So I think this is definitely a runner be surprised if he doesn't do some quite bold thing about moving somewhere If I were him, I wouldn't be Manchester. It was very interesting on that the question time. almost the only time when Rob Kenyan, the reform candidate for Makerfield said anything sort of interesting was when was when he started to complain from a wiggan perspective about Manchester. rightight? And You know, I think the problem is if you if he does everything with Manchester quickly the rest of the country will get fed up with Manchester and they'll start going, well, Manchester and London are like that. So we needs to find other places, whether it's Birmingham or Sheffield or but the problem with Blackpool is And there's and also It's become such a declining place. There's nowhere to stay. So you'd have to do a lot it would cost a lot of money. And of course that is part of your point, isn't it? whichich is you'd have to regenerate it. But why there when there are other places which are nearer to being regenerated. Before we move on from this, Sally, Jonathan Powell said one of the things that one of the things preventing a move of Downing Street or path of Downing Street was that foreign leaders always wanted to be photographed going through the door. Is that the kind of thing is that problem? I mean don I don't quite buy that because I remember I remember Tony taking George Bush Trimdon and he absolutely loved it. I think they There's a certain type of leader Mind oblessness because obviously I know where Trndon is. Oh it's County Durham. It's County Durham. And it was the X miners bit of County Durham, but it's where the Labour Club was, which sadly isn is no longer a Labour cllub. But he to he went to the pub and George Bush loved it, the locals loved it, Tony loved it, and they were more relaxed. They had a really good conversation. So yes, there's a certain there's a certain prestige, but they also like going to C cheheckers. So if there was a cheheckers in the North They'd be perfectly happy to be photographed there, in my view. Poully, you see Donald Trump in the winter gardens though. he'd love it. Absolutely. Yeah. There's probably some algae floating around in a pond somewhere to make him feel at home. But I think, you know, Obama went to Stonehenge, right? And also I think it's perfectly fine to keep Downing Street as a ceremonial location. pretty useful for holding charity receptions. It just, you know You can move the administrative centre away from your ceremonial headquarters. and you know you can have like in France, they have the Eise and then they have Versailles and they're still pretty close. We could repatriate Versailles to Blackpool. That is satire. I think we could send the House of Lords to Stonehenge to make them all dress as druids. sorted, patriotic. Love it. Danny, I want to talk about your column in the Times this week, which everyone should read if they for some unforgivable reason haven't read already. You make a big call. You say that Berham has the chance to stop the carousel of prime mininisters whirling through Downing Street How might he do that and how would might be manage to do that? Okay, so my theory is that you need a big imaginative political idea to meet a very difficult time. We've gone through a carastell of Prime Ministers, because we do, when there's a big political realignment, when there are big political needs, you have to find an idea that can reshape the agenda and cut the cake a little differently or cut or I don't know whether that's a good metaphor, but you get the idea. I think this idea of the North South divide, Britain's got only one productive place, which is London, it needs more productive places. People's ordinary lives have been ignored by Westminster. Some of it, I thought was a bit tendentious and he comes up with the idea that he somehow lived a second class life himself when he's been to Cambridge, B S spad been in the cabinet and been mayor of Manchester. But nevertheless, I thought it had some political punch and it is a different way of looking at, you know, so the resentment that reform has is towards migrants Andreen the Greens have got billionaires. He's got this north, south divide. It's actually You can do some things about it. There is an agenda that relates to it. and if he's got boldness to see it through, It has at least the possibility of reshaping the way that the political debate takes place. That's what I was suggesting. Now it wouldn't be those are not my What he was suggesting is not my politics. I think some of it is completely unwise. a lot of it would be very expensive and would mean having to raise taxes and would reduce growth. So I don't think it would work itself. but some of it, which is the idea that we're too London centered and nowhere else in the country is productive. And that was the idea of George Osborne and the Northern powerowerhouse, which I was very involved in and making a reality of that, I've always thought there's politics and policy in that Sally, do you think that work? I mean, they probably won't like it if it's called the yet another Ret. There's been a lot of rese. I don't think it's a reset. I think I think it's Andy setting out what he intends to do. and then the challenge for him is doing it. But I think I think he is pretty clear what he wants to do, and I think and is that's the starting point and that's what we haven't had. I think the other thing I'd say in addition to what Danny said is I think the additional thing he genuinely wants to do, and I think as demonstrated in his time in Manchester is a less adversarial approach to politics, whether that's about how he operates within Parliament, but more importantly, how he sets out to do things. And as Pally said, one of the things that's interesting is that James did that on pensions. so and that has been my impression strongly is that's been his instinct and the way he's worked in Manchester. So he's worked to bring people together to build consensus, to move things forward whether that's working with business, whether it's working with different parties, whatever I think that will be what he tries to bring to politics. I think a lot of the British public will like that. and it may be quite challenging for some of the other parties But I think he'll be able to turn that to his benefit if he does it clearly enough, if he's clear, he says, this is how I want to work and I'm inviting you to help me take this big problem for the moment and come to a solution. And they say, well, no then that in a sense is something a win for him. It's not where he'd want to be. actuallyually he'd want people to do it with him, but it should isolate some other the people. Polly, what do you think of his chances of having a less adversarial politics with him? Let me just check this.emy Bdenoch I think you can can make that stuff look petty by just being above it. So I It's absolutely in his hands. You know we've talked, I know know Danny has the view that there ought to be an election. Lots of people will poke there are basically infinite constitutional holes you can poke in the idea that he now has a mandate to govern But what matters really is whether he's any good. If he's good It will only be weird constitutionalists who care about the details. If he's rubbish Then all of those petty details just become sticks to beat him with. And so it is on him to do the reset. You know we talked about Kistammer's need for a reset. Weed about we've talked about team. I think that question of how do not how do you hire twelve brilliant people to work in Downing Street, but how do you kind of cast a team of people working to a common agenda allies with one another and with you That's what matters. and then If they run the country really well for two years, they might just hold on to the majority Let's let's finish with an email we've had from Lisa She writes Had Starmer allowed Andy Burnham to stand in Gordon and Denton Would we be facing a different dilemma today, or would Starmer still be making way for somebody else? I a love little bit of blue sky thinking, Dany what'd you think I think in the end he'd be making way Frany Burnham even with it, but it might have played out differently. So I think he thought and you know and they thought they the one thing that Andy Burnham didn't have was a seat in Parliament, so if they could stop him from doing that, he wouldn't challenge because they felt that if they let him into Parliament, he'd challenge and if he challenged he'd win. And that I think that that matters political matters at the time, still it held at the time and you know, he was it still right looking back at it. But there is a chance that he'd have let him in, he'd have got in and then there would have been a which Andy Burnon would have had to fill before becoming you know, so the coronation wouldn't have happened in quite the same way because this would have taken place before the local elections. This is assuming you've won Gordon and Denton. It's assuming that But I think that is a good assumption. he would have won Gordon and Denton. I thought that at the time actually, but it's now obvious that that was what would have happened so I think u It would have he probably hadn't changed much by refusing him then probably, but there's a small chance that Andy Bernam would have dropped the ball between getting elected before the election and now and then we'd have a challenge to he'd still have to stand down, but it would be more open contact. And also you wouldn't be in the position that you're now in, which is that Andy has demonstrated that he can take on reform You wouldn't have had he would have been taking on the greens. it would have been a really different setter. I mean, it just so I think I actually think I mean, I thought they should have let Andystand, but I think for Andy Burnham, in fact, it was probably a good thing that they didn't because I think he said too strong. Well I breath in my body politically and I've been in Dallashire. I definitely wouldn't have laid on stand. The only reason let him stand is because he couldn't stop it. That's all we've got time for. Look do keep sending your messages, questions, comments and so on. We do love to read them. That's it this week for the James Perneell Fan Club We're planning our way to Blackpool right now. Thank you to Sally, Polly and Danny, We'll be back next time