Comparing Political Leadership and Football Management

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C clients pid thousand dollars for their testimonial creating a conflict of interest outcesary. point three percent bas API as of january thirtieth twenty six is repentative variable and earned funds sw to program bank. point six five percent new clientsose for three months on up to one hundred fifty thousand dollars. Direct deposit one thousand dollars a month fund invest account for point five percent increase Cash account offered by Wealthfront broerage LLC member Fer IC,ot a James Penll Fan Club N not to be sneezed. Obama went Stonehenge. M make them all dress as druids. George Bush loved it. Fed up in Manchester. Miller fandom and I just despised him. I'm not going to become prime Minister. Welcome, welcome one and all. Welcome to How how to win election. I'm Hugo Riffkin, and I'm joined as ever by former Labour insider founder member of the James Penell Fan Club It's Sally Morgan Hello Sally. Hell Hello, her pololicy quQueen, she wasn't a fan of Millerfandom, Polly Mackenzie. Hello Polly. Hell. Hello, she says darkly and Torory Pier, Times cololumist fed off with Manchester. Danny Finlstein. Hello, Danny. Hello Hello. Do send your questions to how to win at the Times. co UK. We always loved itved it. I was going to say hear them. I think I mean read them, hear them as well. deepends how you send them, I'm waffling. We're going to talk today about what Andy Burnham's the first big speech as Prime Minister elect told us about his electoral strategy. Hell entered Downing Street the day after the World Cup fininal, comedian, Matt Ford will join us as well to talk about whether the nation's performance on the pitch can create a political feel good factor. But first, before that We need to talk about Blackpool. because last week, Polly said that rather than moving part of Downing Street to Manchester, Andy Burnham should replace cheheckers with a Mar Lago style resort on the Lancashire coast. He hasn't taken advice so far, so instead we've created an Andy Burnham sandscape using the real sounds of Blackpoolought newew running shorts face the same way And then pull in that same direction together, Put Tolburg, Scunthorpe and Aberdeen, the Midlands, the southwest. peopleeople need to be able to look forward to a night out the Northwest, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Northeast, Yorkshire and the Humber, imagine. good growad in every postcode and hope in every heart. Dundee and Banger A warms to the heart. You can alm taste the daytime chips and smell the nighttim vomit. Polly, is that what you were dreaming of? Oh one thousand percent. Marvellous, Marvellous. Look, you've predictably enraged some of the people of Northwest England, Polly. I should let you know. Blackpool Cncllor Sean Brooks says, let me know if you're planning on coming up and I'll see if I can get you the full regeneration tour. Doesn't it sound like you've done the research about the investment happening in the most iconic UK holiday resort there ever was. He gives a list of great things that are going on there and cones C for the lights, stay for the night. Anyone up for a trip to the coast? Oh yeah. The trouble with black blue is, I used to go as a kid, you have to walk a very, very long way to get to the sea is my distant memory. you sort of basically give up.ure it depends where you st start from. I think would be I think it would be fantastic for the country to regenerate somewh my light and you know, I'm really happy if they have got such plans and the plans work. you know, the problem with the clip that you just playayed us and this problem with spe in my view intellectually, is that I think the idea of spreading growth to every post code is simply It's very difficult's over ambitious idea. I think that wouldould you like to list some of post codes? you don't think we should bother? Well, that's the problem with it. So it's a very, very good thing. I wouldn't have started doing that. I think that's why Boris Johnson came up with the idea of leveling up But I would have plans for three or four big hubs in the country to which places would feed in and create very good transport links between those places and Big cities I think the idea of aiming to spread ly over it just runs in the face of what we know about how the invisible economy works, which is through agglomeration and people working near each other and therefore places specializing. don know I don't think that's easy to spread so evenly. it's nice you're getting into the fun spirit of this don't? And I was just going to say if you think about Andy's approach in Manchester I think it was clos to I think it's been closer to what you're describing than the kind of sharing everything out. I mean, I used have this argument with people. I grew up halfway between Liverpool and Manchter I used to have arguments with people way back in the sort of new labour years about we weren't regenerating industry sufficiently. And actually my argument back at that stage, which is still would still be my argument is the real failure was to improve the transport link so you could work in Liverpool or Manchester in particular. And the truth is it took forever to get to either of them and it still does. And once you get over the penines, it's got slower than it was thirty years ago. So actually, I think in Manchester, what Andy concentrated on was real regeneration and growth in the city and then making sure that the towns around were really properly connected. look Harriet Digby hass also been in touch. She's a listener who is also the former mayor of Retford, another place mentioned by Polly in her Tour of Destruction. She wants to defend her hometown. She emailed to say, O community feels so apart from the London bubble that it would feel patronising for them to establish a London satellite here Sheays She says, If you want to revitalize our area, lower the cost of trains and petrol, open up Doncaster Sheffield Airport and improve adult education services. Polly, I think that's you told We probably should do all of those things. So I thought of Retford. My sister is a vet and her first veterinary job was in Retford. And it is quite interesting because from a vet perspective, it's a small enough town that you get a mixed vet practice where you get small animals, pets, and also farm animals, which is why she wanted to be there. But you know and actually there were fewer and fewer places like that. It was quite rare have enough of a town to really grow. It's really, really difficult. So education skills, transport links I agree with Danny, I agree with Sally. These are the fundamentals of economic growth The challenge is they're all quite expensive and quite slow. whereere does the magic happen? to which of course the answer is M. Well, I mean There's also, mean, to be properly serious here, there's two actually quite different things that we're talking about. because one is investment and regeneration, know and actually sort of pouring money into places, maybe giving them tax breaks, you know free ports, all that kind of stuff. The other though, really, what you were suggesting Polli, and I don't mean this in a dismissive way at all, but was well meaning tokenism wasasn't it? You know if you do establish sort mal logo in Blackpool, then it that drags the investment. It doesn't . Well So the theory, particularly around kind of culture led regeneration, which comes from Richard Florida a kind of US academic is that esssentially by making a place cool You make the business leaders who, in the end make the decisions about where factories and offices and things get located, you make them want to kind of crowd in. And that you know if you look at what's happened in Hull around the development the deep. Margate's a good one. Margate. Absolutely.ave you've seen Salford? Exactly. in Newcastle, lots of kind of arts and culture led regeneration And then also in much smaller places, lots of people will know, hey on why little town really on the border between England and Wales, regenerated by the absolute mad kind of passion of a person for opening far too many secondhand bookshops and then building a kind of cultural festival on that. And then you know it gets to the point where demand that is fed by a combination of the tourism and then the money of the people who make money sending to the tourists Aually I rememered thinking about getting married in H on Y and we absolutely couldn't afford it. It's not tokenism actually. It's symbolism and boosterism that then drives economic choices. Well, if anyone from H on Y would like to get in touch and complain about what Paul said now, You know where to find us. Let's move on. I want to talk about what we learned from Andy Burnham's first big speech as Prime Minister Elect. Danny, you've now finished reading the book He couthd with Steve Rothotherham I doubt you're first, but maybe one of the first called Head North. You've written about it in your column and you say he basically perhaps tries a bit too hard to present himself as an outsider. Yes, I thought it was a bit ridiculous in places. Partly because Steve Rotherham is more genuinely an outsider and didn't have a degree. It's incredibly impressive of what he's done in his life, starting from not having to left school become a basically and he has built himself up to this thing which he got to be very impressed by. And Andy Burnham obviously hasn't had that background, although you know clearly he doesn't have sort of upper middle class connected politically connected family in any ways, but he's also builds himself up, but it's absurd to suggest he's been treated as a second class citizen one of there were lots to say that was good in the book. There was one set of things which was very good in the book. I just happened not to agree with it, which was He's not somebody who doesn't believe in anything Right. He belie he has a view a way of looking at the world. That's my big takeaway from your col that was was really well made. It's very consistent and it's very important. And actually, if I was his political advisor and if he thinks those things will work which I don't, but I'm not, you know, I'm not him. If he thinks they're working, then he ought to see them through and build a team and a consistency and a courage to make those things happen because he thinks they'll work. It's not an implausible thesis. over I think That is proposes too much government and that the cost of The investment that he's suggesting will involve too much taxation and that will put people off natural investment. So I think there are huge political arguments to be had about it, but it is a plan. And it's a point. To quote you back at yourself, you wr he has a good word for almost every left wing, high spending, high tax, state interventionist idea that hass been canvassed in the past half century The left turn he proposes on the economy and public services is very clear. Sally, do you agree with that I agree with Danny that Andy knows what he wants to do and I think that will be really good for the country because I think people are worn out by feeling that it's just Bmoni. So I think from that point of view, I agree strongly. I suppose don what I didn't agree with with was the kind of every left wing thing that's been going. He's tick to boox against it. He may have done at various points. I think he'll be pretty focused on the things that he thinks he's got to do. and I think I actually think I actually think he'll make some hard choices And I think he will feel more confident making hard choices than Kira has. So to a point, I would say, but not the full package. Let's talk about his proposal for a basic law. in Germany, it's called the Grundes Gazetes or perhaps Gundes Cassettes. I'm not qu sure. my German pronunciation is woeful as my family always tell me. Can anyone explain what it is, Danny? I'm the idea after the The unification of East and West Germany was to introduce a basic law which is sort of fundamental, the constitution of the country and in brackets, that one that's a problem because it's part of a sort of entrenched constitution, which obviously we don't have, but he believes in by a written constitution. And part of it would be basic law, which says that He has to equalize living standards in all parts of the country. And this is this postcode, good growth in every postcode is just another way of expressing the general idea without specifically saying basic law. It's you know, for the reasons that I suggested, I think that is extremely over ambitious. But I but I get, you know, but he doesn't so again U Let's do what you think is the right thing to do. and I can see both the politics on of it, but more importantly, I can see what, you know it's not a stupid theory why it would work. I originally wrote when I originally wrote that sentence about every left wing idea, which by the way doesn't include he's not left wing on immigration or on crime. He worked for David Blanket, as you pointed out So he's got more the and that isn't his politicy, nor is it his constituency. But he has every idea that political le wing idea and I put the word failed in. and then I took it out because I didn't want people to think it was just a kind of another generalized swat at him. What I mean is There are real things that he thinks You'll recognize them. he doesn't like academy schools For example, he doesn't want the purchaser provider split in the NHS. is every sort of idea like that, he thinks that we should be spending much more money by the state and with the state should be more equal. That's what I meant by it. And if you think those things work, and they're the right direction for the country. Well, He should try them then Pollly, the grin cassetes, like basically a legal obligation to equalize living standards across the country. This sounds right up your street Well, I mean, these kind of certainly fan of a written Constitution. We do, of course, have a Bill of Rights since the Glorious Revolution and We do have these kind of fundamental principle based laws, right? So we have the Equality Act And that includes the public sector equality duty, which doesn't talk about geography But it does say that basically every public authority of every kind and it applies to sort of quasar public authorities, as well at universities should be thinking about how it can level up opportunity between people basically under any protected characteristic within the Equality Act. And it's interesting that the right has sort of said two things, sometometimes that they're just against that in principle and sometimes that they're against that because it ought to level up on the basis of white working class people, which oddly enough, is actually plenty of people on the left would like it to also include discrimination for class to be a protected characteristic Basically so that the Equality Act would then act as, again, a non geographic thing like the basic law Could you then add Geography element of that course it's kind of intellectually tempting you then and then add in a sort of basic law type concept, which we've got with the Climate Change Act and with the Human Rights Act The risk is you then get to this point which the think tank Rate used to be called reform, but they had to change their name for obvious reasons. have called everythingism which is that you're sort of trying to solve all of the problems with every single policy instrument, and every single impact assessment becomes ninety three thousand pages long actually nothing ever happens. There also there's also a dilema isn't there that I think he'll come across, which is On the one hand, you say you want real devolution And that will lead to things having different outcomes because it does. And then the other hand, but we want everything to be broadly fair. I mean my view of where he would be on fairness is let's be fair, but only you've got to grow the cake in order to be fair. What know I don't think he's somebody who would think, well, whatever we've got, we've just got to make that fair across the piece because actually that doesn't move the country forward. So I think he's really clearly wants to move the country forward But what do we do if we find that Reion A is actually really pushing ahead or Council A is really pushing ahead and the others aren'? I mean, I think that's going to be a real challenge I.s basically pl place is being taken into special measures, isn't it? they're lag behind. No it's even more than that actually, because I think it's a sort of fundamental challenge in kind of labour history P the Second World War and certainly pre the formation of the Labor Party, the kind of the movements that became the Labour Party were highly communitarian and anti bureaucratic Post war, that absolutely became the kind of bureaucratic tradition, which is essentially a sort of imposed fairness and equality that what you really need is very, very tidy systems that make everything work perfectly and fairly. ually devolution creates what that part of the Labour movement would call unfairness because it means different places making different choices on the basis of different Not just context, but preferences and that's very intellectually interesting. I don't really know where he stands on it because Denny's point, I think Andy Burnham has said lots of things about lots of parts of the Labour tradition. He is not going out there and saying Aually, what we need is something that feels like more connected and legible and understandable to people, even at the price of tidy furnness. So look all this stuff, you've got to bear in mind we're two, three years away from the next election. I'm interestioned whether you think these kind of big ideas on constitutional change, on restructuring the nation, all that kind of stuff Is that does that form any part of a strategy to win the next election, Sally onlyn if it starts to have the green shoes of delivery. So in a sense, I think it's really important to say I have got to build direction here and I want you to get on the bus with me and this is where I'm taking us. And this is what I really believe in. And I do think he will lead quite strongly on that basis However, in order to really bring people with him, he has got to take some he's got to show he takes some tough decisions and he's got to take some hard action on some stuff. I think if he does that, people will give him, you know theyll give him a fair go. If he doesn't do that and it's all a bit theoretical and a bit bureaucratic, which I don't think is his instinct, but I think gosh, when he walks in and really finds what he's dealing with, it will be hard. Danny, he never really talks about reform, but is this basically much the same as Kist armour strategy to be the anti reform voter as many constituencies as possible. So a very important feature of this is that he has the similar electoral and demographic idea that Morgan McSweeney had. and a critical person in appreciating that was Josh Simmons. The reason that Josh I've had this argument with Josh Simmondons in which I say, I'm not sure that Labour's traditional coalition is tenable. I'm not sure that you any longer are the party that represents all these places. And Josh came to pretty much despise Kist Armmer for his failures to reach out to this audience, even though that's what he had wanted to do. and but he Josh and Morgan Mcsweeney, both of you, there's no Labour majority without seats like Makerfield. R so He is now set about getting another leader who will do that in a different way. And actually I think that what Andy Bernam proposes is a more plausible way of winning those seats and it does have This idea of Britain being on the right track don't turn back as a possibility. but as Sally points out, He's got to show not only that it's a track, but it's the right track. and we're going along it. and those two things mean actually achieving things in the short run as well as the medium term and the longer term. and then you can make difficult decisions. and in fact one of the things that's fascinating in a social psychological sense is that people are willing to to accept it and go along with it the more painful it is. I would you say this with the liiberal Democrats. So I think it was precisely how incredibly painful it had been to join the coalition, how incredibly difficult it was and how much political pain you had taken that made you stay in it, even when everyone cited that as a reason to leave it. also were driven, I think, by duty and it was a strong and stable government and the country needed one and It was never about ministerial cars, which people sort of talk about actually it was about. making it making a difference. And If I look forward to the next election, certainly agree, as I've said for years and years that the most important thing to focus on is being a good government and delivery We will not have prosperous sunlight uprs in every postcode by the time of the next election. So the question is how do you signal that you're on the right track? And I think for me, so much of politics is about a theory of where the conflict is actually identifying the big and serious battles that you can be a part of peopleople sometimes sort of turn this into a sort of dead cat thing. You don't want people to be talking about small boats so you pick a fight on something else If it's trivial and pointless, that's just that is a dead cat strategy. If actually the point is In order to deliver change, for example, in the NHS or on devolution or on civil service reform Push aggressively to have fights on that. so that you can make changes and Pull political attention away from the areas where you are losing. Yeah, absolutely. Look. In a moment, we're going to talk about whether Andy Burnnam's rise whether he's going to rise into number ten on a wave of World Cup patriotic fever. Could the comedian Matt Ford is going to be here to help us with that. When we come back with a bit more, how to win an election Eight, seven, seven, three, nine, three get in now Two l, eight, seven, seven, three, nine, three, four, four And apply to optimum. com for details Hey are you hungry? Let's order delivery. Yeah. I was thinking Italian burgers Oh Game likeight just got tents, two bros on different sides of the fence With Wonder, you can combine twenty restaurants in one delivery, so no one has to settle. Download the app today. Wonder Food without the fight. Finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along, which is why you should try Zip Recruiter for free At ziprecruiter dot com slash zip Zip Recruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you, it finds them for you. Its powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job. 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Hello, good morning. How you keeping? Oh, just delighted. I barely slept last night. just Absolutely buzzing was there similar levels of excitement in my Scottish German household? I promise,. Matt Id say leevels of football knowledge on this team. Danny aside are perhaps pretty low. Polly says she hasn't watched a single game. Can you and your podcast converse us and if so how? Well, I hope so. I mean I think it's a helpful way in for perhaps people who love football, but also people who don't. And each episode I'm joined by some people who've won the World Cup P peopleople like Emanuel Peti, a great French and Arsenal leegend and many England legends, Stuart Piers, David Sieman, John Barnes To understand, you know the run up to the tournament, we would take a different facet of what it took to win whether it was mentality, management, having a home tournament the best fans, mavericks, things like that, refereeing decisions. Now that we're into the tournament We're reacting to the action that we're seeing. So I think Regardless of your level of football knowledge, we are here to guide you through it and educate you. Let's paint a picture. The Worcup finalals is on Sunday just over a fortnite time, England win and the following day, Andy Burnham heads to the palace and he becomes Prime Minister, which is will that be just an amazing start to his preremiership if that all happens? Of course. I mean you couldn't hope for a better moment and I think particularly I often think about this. I think these moments can be more profound for labour governments because I think Center left, maybe left parties and left politicians struggle more with a sense of national identity specifically around England than they do anything else. And I think the rest of the country is way ahead of them We are really comfortable with who we are. We like who we are, we realize that our past is mixed, but we think this is a great place and we want to celebrate it And I think starting off with a really positive view of England from a diverse England team with a German manager would be the ideal start for a new Labour Pime Mis Danny, is there any evidence that the feel good factor from a sporting victory can help the incumbent in elections? Obviously, there isn't much evidence that that happens as a result of winning World Cups. from other countries I've got a genuine statistical worry given the chances of England winning the World Cup that we might have actually won The one World Cup were on schedule to win in my life, but in nineteen sixty six when I was too young to remember it. So that's my statistical worry out of the way. The answer is that I don't think, as Harold Wilson did think that losing to Germany three two during the nineteen seventy campaign, contributed significantly to his defeat But I do think there's actually something plausible in the idea U England win the World Cup were it to happen would assist the mainstream in some way just by making the country feel like a better place. The evidence is pretty slim. Mostly when you have external events, people actually just don't associate or attribute them to to politicians. They correctly don't. They know that Andy Burnham if we win the World Cup had nothing to do with it. So they correctly don't. but I do think U the idea that Britain is sort of declining, something that, by the way, after Brexit, I felt almost the whole of the rememain vote had an incentive to believe and the leave vote already believed it. So it added both groups together and we've had a profound sort of national pessimism. And I think it is plausible. I wouldn't put it any stronger than that that winning the World Cup would if we did, which I think we probably won't, so don't come on talking the country down Statistically the chances of England. The truth is statistically even Argentina, with are favourites There's a seenty four percent chance they won't win Sally, the one I always think about and maybe because of the precise age I am is Euro ninety six being followed by Labour's victory in ninety seven, which I mean of course England didn't win in ninety six, but they did pretty well and was and it was it was in England I always think of that as being part of the same national mood. Is that how it comes? I did feel like part of the same national mood. and I mean I also think I mean it's not football, sorry Matt, but I always think about the Olympics in twenty twelve that it felt like that represented, it wasn't Eng that. it was Britain, but that represented us. I mean, I think what is interesting in what Manches said and is to be a little serious for a moment is builds on, I guess the deear England staff and the play and everything we know about the culture. When you looked at that team last night genuinely that was the modern face of England And I think that's brilliant, actually. and I also think it marginalizes reform. So in you know, I actually think from that point of view, no matter how far we get It sort of is good for it's good for us to I mean, why should patriotism be owned by a subgroup Could I ask Matt whether he might be able to tell us the difference between Andy Burnham winning reaction to winning the World Cup and his fabulous Kia Stahalmer impression of him winning the World Cup. What would the difference be? Well they're obviously both big football fans which helps, but I think I'm Iviously Kiss very earnest. I want to pay tribute not just to the backackroom staff. but to every single member, the friends of familyies at hell. And although today we celebrate the World Cup, we must remember that for many countries around the world, they haven't won the World Cup. R I think Burnham what's interesting with Burnham is he pivots very quickly from levity to seriousness. and lots of labour politicians do this They don't have that middle ground, I think they start enjoying themselves and they worry they're being too flippant and they have to bring it back down to earth again. You know I'm delighted that you know, we only win the World Cup under a labor government, as you know, Danny, and you know I celebrate I had a few scoops, you know, I don't mind saying and you know, I had a curry afterwards, but you know in all seriousness, if the Iranians carry on, I will use nuclear force Pauly, what wass the last word anyone said that you understand? I understand nuclear war and how that plays out. And I would like to say that last night I was cycling home during the England match and I was able to keep track of the score because I happened to go past pubs where cheers erupted ye ye. So I was very confident that I knew what the score was when I got home and I checked on the internet and I was right simply by Yeah we had people round our house for dinner last night and they had to similarly walk past pubs on the way there and knew exactly what was going on just because of the shouting. Matt, look Andy Burnham he does is he perhaps the most convincing football fan in Downing Street since some well at least since David Cameron forgot which team he supports? Well, it's well, it's since Kir Starm, Kar Starm' is an authentic football fan. they're both genuinely you know, season ticket holders who go to games regularly and watch it. And I think what's quite interesting is There's a sense maybe from some people that Andy Bernham feels more like a football fan than Kir Starmer, but I think as a country, we have a really skewed view of what a football fan is. and I think we used to think it was a job And now actually Most football fans are normal people They're just normal people who go, they don't get that angry. they follow it like they would, you know, a panto. They throw themselves into it But I think of I'm a forest fan. When I go to forest games, I'm sat around normal blokes. I'm not sat around people who are livid all the time or have really outrageous opinions or particularly strong opinions even a lot of the time on who should play midfield or defense They're just normal people. So so I think Both Keia Starmer and Andy Burnham represent mostly sort of what football fans are like. they have a job and they enjoy football as a form of entertainment. I mean, I think they've I mean, I think they both, to be fair also played quite a bit.'ve always played football haven't I mean I've been back in backack in the laby years when there was a political away day at Checkers it was bizarre because they all had to break for a football match. I mean it was kind of, oh yeah, I mean they were all and they were pretty vicious actually. G Brant was a proper football fan. I mean really obsessed with his team. I've always wondered you can illuminate whether Oh yeah, he was he was serious. I mean, used to go, you know, if skky News wasn't on, the football was on. so yeah. David Cameron was a weird thing, which was he essed to not be interested in football while actually being interested in it which was really odd. I mean because I know that because he used to text me during Villa Chelsea games and I took him to Villa Chelsea actually. So I know that that wasn't true that he wasn't interested in football. but didid he really forget which team he supposed? No I spoke him about it. What happened was Like a lot of things As he read it, it's like that time J you read what the country his wife was from As he read it He said he realized he'd actually said the words West Ham. I think Karen Brady was there and probably that. He said And then he said, what could I do at that point? I couldn't go back because that would look even worse. And he said when I got in the car, everyone was like I said to somebody was that? And they were like myaughter in the p. Yes, it was terrible. It was worse than that actually politically because the daughter and the pub people sort of that But it was people had also made some mistake with their children like that. I don't think Nick Clig was interested in now' Ttally bl b football. I mean he was part of this mad football merine. she was. So it was because he started taking his boys. And Dutch football pres? No. I sort of feel like he went to Chelsea, but I'm not certain and I feel like if it was Chelsea, you would know, but like he started taking his sons to the football when they were kind of pretty small and he really got into it from there But certainly as kind as a young man very to Southampton and Michael Howard obsessed with Liverpool. Oce he called me for a meeting, which I thought was going to be a meeting about political strategy of the Conservative party. and it turned out he wanted to ask about Stephen Geralard having scored lone goal in the Carling Cub. But Stephen Sherbourne, who is his private secretary, didn't know anything about it. So we couldn't talk to him. He got me then Matt is politics sometimes a bit too much like football? Do you find yourself cheering on political parties in the same way that you cheer in a football team or a country? Well, I think the culture of it is getting that way. If you look at how often we change Prime Minister, you know it's probably the least secure job other than a Premier League manager. know this idea that if you just change the person in charge, that will solve all our problems. And I think Certainly the way that people interact with it. And obviously is both things don't exist in a vacuum. Social media and other things have led us to this place. But this idea that everything's rubbish, they're all terrible. they don't know what they're doing. You the language that often the public use about politics is identical to the language that we use about football, and I think often people are wrong in both areas Yeah, ism Danny Ism is managing a cabinet like managing a football team? Yeah there's an element of it, although it's more democratic even than that. although you can lose the dressing room and clearly that's what happened in the last few weeks to Kst Amor. And it's very dependent on whether you win and whether people people want to be part of a winning team, they're not so keen on not being part of a winning team. So yes, it can be there is definite similarities. and it's more it's closer in similarity than the relationship between uh, a Chief executive and their board. And also you get the narratives around defeat and victory the same as in football, we should have won better. or we only won because of that. actuallyually, you know, we scored more goals when we lost and that's the thing that really matters, you know, the sort of Corbyid narrative. So both, you know, those narratives of betrayal and of heartbreak persist in politics in the same way. Sally, what did what did Tony Blair learn from Alex Ferguson Alex Fgon used to he used to talk quite seriously with Alex. and that was about leadership. It was about team, it was about leadership, it was about direction. It was about, you know, yeah, you've got to if that's what you really think you've got to do, then you've got to get rid of x. Tony used to point out to, it's fine for you to say that, Alex, because you can get rid of a player and they disappear. And if I get rid of a member of my cabinet, they're sitting right behind me. which point Alex did acknowledge that that was the difference. That was the crucial difference actually. But I mean, you know, they did have serious conversations about leadership In a football team though Matt do all the players like secretly want to be the manager? I'm not sure they do. I'm not sure they do. In fact, I'm struck when you talk to football and Daniel know this better, but Some of them actually aren't that interested in it. They're really good at it But they're not obsessed in the same way that fans are. It just happens to be their talent. You know Ben White Arsenal really doesn't seem that bothered about football outside of the ninety minutes that he is on the pitch for Arsenal. So they don't all have strong opinions on how it should be played. But what you do get as you do get in other areas is people whose thinking is just slightly ahead and you can see with elite players like Kane and Anderson and Bellingham, they read the game so well it intellect that they also possess that marks them out as well as their physical attributes. We've had a text for you, Matt, and I must admit that I have no idea what this means, but I'm going to say anyway. Please ask Matt what he thinks about the latest managerial shenanigans at Nottingham Forest. O, so we have now keep it brief. We are about to appoint our fifth manager in twelve months in Oliver Glasner We've got Vito Perreo in who kept us up. He was our fourth manager in a season and he was given a few months and now it looks like we're going to appoint the former Palace manager Oliver Glasnaar, which I'd say I'm very excited about. I think brilliantly to win the conference league with Palace and the FA Cup and the charity shield. So hopefully that means Silverware is coming back to forest He read Okay good. Polly, look, there are important policy questions arising from all of this. Should everyone get the day off so they can watch the next England game in the middle of the night? Is that that's your first first answer. One o Aome forune. Yeah, well, though I do think there are some serious questions about how we calculate the economic costs of bank holidays. No It'ough I mean, I suppose uran Mamdani has done like made some good politics out of I don't know. Didn't he give an edict that children could stay up past their bedtime? I don't know. This feels to me like we're not politicians trying to elbow their way into stuff that doesn't in the end belong to them. They can have a little bit of the honey. they can you know invite them to Downy Street, they can go on the bus like all of that stuff. but In the end, this is it belongs to the nation. it's not politics. Matt, will you make a case for everyone getting the day off Well on Monday I don't know, any day. How any day? I think I think if we win it you have to have some sort of national celebration. When you think of the things that we mark as a country and how rare these things are I think these things are just bigger than football. I mean, if we really won the whole thing, not if we really won day, I just think people are going going look we're effectively got a bank holding on Monday anyway. because P peopleople are just to go into work over and be terribly unproductive. So Yeah, you're sort of getting on without getting on really. No, I guess which would you rather be Matt? Would you rather be England manager or would you rather be Prime Minister? Oh, England manager Really? Yeah, it's way more fun. I mean,'s at least you get to watch football. They never look like they're having that much fun. No, but it would be cool, wouldn't it be to chout instructions and wear the tracksuit and all that I also just think if you pick Harry Cane and Jude Bellingam, and Elliia Anderson, Delan Rice and Saker I mean Would it really go that much differently for me than it would for Thomas Dull? probablyrob Dany That's not the point. Danny, which do you think is the harder job? Um Oh Prime Minister, Ready Yes. Really? Yes, it is. And you can do badly for longer as prrime Minister, can't you? L Look, I couldn't come close to doing either of those jobs. Don't do your th down. No I couldn't.