Final Lessons on Life

This is humans. Human humans.ans Human humans I'm Hank Green Helen Hunt has had one of the stranger, more interesting careers that you can have as an artist in Hollywood. Not because of the Hs, an Oscar, four Emmys, four Golden Globes, seven seasons of one of the most beloved sitcoms ever made, but because of the variety. She has acted, she's directed, she writes screenplays. She directed and wrote an indie movie that spent ten years trying to get made only to have it Lose distribution. She's been in hit blockbuster movies, she's been in flops, she's done Shakespeare, she's done comedy and drama. Her IMDB is insane Her most recent credit is like, now, least recent is from nineteen seventy three when she was nine She had at least one credit in every year from when she was nine until she was thirty eight, and then she took like a one year break She meditates daily, she surfs in Maui, She takes college literature classes as an antidote to Instagram. and she just received a lifetime achievement Award at the Taermina Film Festival. This summer, she'll play opposite Kenneth Branagh at the Royal Shakespeare Company. What do women want? Apparently variety I am so excited to talk to Helen for a lot of reasons. I want to think with her about how we stay engaged in our world, how we do that intelligently and carefully, what keeps someone choosing harder, more interesting paths, how to not just ride waves, but go and find them How to be absolutely relentless. Also, I want to take the chance to finally apologize for writing a two minute song about how I had a massive crush on her when I was in high school in my defense. It was the first song I ever released on YouTube and I did not imagine it would ever reach her ears But first, Helen Hunt, thank you for being here. Thank you. Here's what I know. you have good friends. Oh yeah. So I got on Twitter back When it was Twitter, I guess it's not Twitter anymore. Y. And I used to be on Twitter. the way you watch a horror movie, if you're scared, like you've got your hands up and you're peeking through your hands. like half engaged. But your name kept coming up. Oh no. And I didn't know who you were, and it kept coming up and coming up. I mean, that was a couple years. A couple years of. Yeah. and there was nothing creepy, but why is this name continually showing up and then there was like a deluge of people saying, it's his birthday. Write something. It would mean everything. And so I just took a leap of faith that you weren't an axe murdr. wrote you a happy birthday. But like what happened? Why me? What's how did it all start? Well, Hank Green, why is your name bed in my head for decades and decades. I will explain it to you. Okay. I was, you know, in high school as Mad aboutout you was happening And you're a very beautiful person and very funny. And that show was like, o man, the way that Madbout you is sexy is so good You were wise beyond your years. you were in high school and thought mad about you was sexy. I thought it was sexy, but like You thought it was sexy? I did, I did. Well, that's great. I think that's a compliment to us both. Yeah. A lot of people listening probably have not seen Mat about you. But the great thing about it, there's so much like TV sitcom about a husband and wife where the husband is like kind of big and bumbling and useless and the wife is beautiful and skinny and strong And and the amazing thing about M about you is like you trade that those roles off. Yeah, where like sometimes one is weak and the other has to be strong. And that's what marriage is actually like. That was a very conscious goal. Yeah.. Let's never let them say, he's the neurotic one and she's the strong one so that was that's good that that landed The way that they were in love physically and mentally was very good. The way that they were playful, the way that like sex was not something that was out of control, but was something that was like indulged and in loveved. Scheduled sometometimes scheduled sometimes scheduled. And much like life. This is also how marriage is, yeah. And also Paul Rizer, no one gives him credit, but he's also hot. Totally. Yeah. and an actor I knew his standup and I was just kind of attracted to his standup because it wasn't mean It lined up with my funny bone. And then I was in an acting class long before anybody knew who I was, except maybe And I noticice like, oh, he cares enough to sit in this hours long class. He's an actor. because there are stand upps who do a perfectly lovely job on their TV shows, but they're not actors. So I kind of got, Ohh, he's an actor And then this show came up and I just started doing movies and that was a time where if you did movies You kind of didn't do TV. like finally I'm out of TV and in movies and I was starting to do movies And he came over to my house for dinner because his wife knew my roommate. It was all well. and I chatted with him And then he said, I've got this show and I thought, o sh Now I've done it. Now I'm going to have to call this perfectly lovely person and say, I don't want to be your wife in the show where I'm just your wife. Yeah. But then I read it and I was like, oh This is a big, juicy thing and I would really like to be in it It's so interesting because YouTube was also like this for a while where like, if you did YouTube, you couldn't be on TV. Now you kind of came. Now it's all just the more the more, the more the more. Yeah. Well that's how it should be And also what is even TV anymore You say that like it's not a giant like hunk of the glacier that has fallen off of my work and career and all of my fellows. Like what is it anymore? Yeah. It's very weird. We should get into the industry, but I want to finish my story. Okay about how this came to be, which is simply that I started this project with my brother in two thousand seven where we made videos back and forth to each other every day, which meant that we were always hungry to find something to talk about And I had just started to learn how to play guitar. It was so fun to try and put that to, you know, like comedy songs. And so I wrote basically a comedy song about being in love with Helen Hunt Which is too much. You know, because you're like a person in a way that I had no idea was the case at the time. That's such a strange thing about fame. I don't know. Perhaps we should talk about that though because you've been weirdly famous. There's like mad aboutout you fame and then there's like winning an Oscar as good as it gets across from Jack Nicholson fame. How have you felt about that How you take up space in a lot of people's heads? I mean, it's confusing because I take up space in a lot of people's heads and then you haven't heard of me at all. Oh, Twister, sorry. someone just needs to message you and say Twister, no, no. Twister idiot I just assume that that is the thing you get recognized for the most. It depends on where you are. It depends on the demographic. But you're unusual that in high school you cared about Mad about you so you get some kind of extra points and I'm not sure what category. Well, I think it served me well Whatever I learned from that show and or I learned that led me to enjoying that show has served me well There was a moment around two thousand where it was all happening at once. and that's when I suddenly went, Oh shit, what if this is forever? I was followed around and all those things that are a little disconcerting if you're a woman, especially. Paparaz show up. It was not good. And I thought, what if this is forever But it wasn't. And now I live in a city that's a little bit like, yeah, whatever. I just saw three much more famous people than you. So that kind of helped. Yeah. I don't know. I wanted a civilian life and I I got it. Now I want good work which it helps to be more famous to get good work. Oh God yeah. So that's where it's a little bit like I really enjoy Being a man among men and living a life on the ground like you do and other people. but then it's harder to get the work that you want to do because they want famous people. They want famous people I mean, first of all, you don't like I assume donon't have to work. But there's something that's kept you hungry and interested for all these years. and ambitious. Yeah Yeah, I am ambitious. It's all comes back to like the words on the page. You know what I mean? I'm about to go do the cherry orchard This Russian beast of a play and a giant beast of a part and I'm excited and scared and I feel like my I listened to one of your podcasts and I thought, I bet our brains are so different. Yours seems all scrubbed and clean and sciencey and mine's all art and fuzzy and filled with literature and then ye big giant gaping holes. but I love I taking this thing I've done for my whole life since I was nine years old, this is an art, even though it's invisible. Oo, what does that mean Well, if you write a book, you hold it in your hand or you Hold it in your kindindle and if you paint a painting, you go here it is. And then if you do this piece of work It can, I believe, because I've been on the receiving end of it. It can matter to people, it can move people It can give them a new perspective. it can give them a break from how hard the world is. I think theater and movies really can matter way but then it's gone. I'm going step off stage in this play and it did it ever happen? Play definitely disappears. movies don't disappear, but they are very sort of like They take a time they happen, you know one second per second. What does that mean? S, that's your scrubbed crispy brain. What does that mean? One second per second? Well, like a book, I can read a page and I can be like, ooh, I really liked that. and then I read the page again. Or I can like, ah this paragraph isn't doing it for me and I move on to the next one A painting, you could spend zero seconds looking at a painting or you could spend five years looking at a painting. Whereas a movie, if it's eighty eight minutes long, it's kind of eighty eight minutes long. might might you might you could live, go back or go to the bathroom, but like mostly it's eighty eight minutes long So there is this thing about film And TV where they sort of like happen and then you are expected to move on Yeah, I mean, there is that rare movie that that walks alongside you your whole life and they're different for everybody. You know what I mean? I've met people who say who live in places where there are tornadoes who say every year, when it's tornado season, we put it on. I'm like, reallyally? And it's their comfort thing. Oh and it's real. Like I haven't heard it once I've heard it thirty times. You know, Jim Brooks's movies, which I was in one, as good as it gets, did terms of endearment, for example, that's a movie that could walk alongside you your whole life. And I think it keeps coming back to the writing. It's the writing, it's the writing, it's the writing. Yeah, you don't necessarily even have to like watch it over and over again for it to hit over and over again. Yeah. And if it gets you ten years later, that's like attention must be paid has happened. Yeah, there are those things in the world. This is really important. I think, because I didn't used to do this. I used to have these thoughts that I would return to over and over again. I'd be like, well, that's what it's like to be a person. And now I'm like, wait a second, why is that happen Why is that sentence coming to you over and over? that Yeah what is it about this thought that has created such hooks in my brain? It like really must have fit into a problem I had and been something that was part of a solution that I needed? A lot of people in their twenties read Rilky. I'm not the only one God knows it's almost a cliche, but there's a poem And there's a line, I want to be with those who know secret things or else alone Oh that M. And it's still true. Oh, that's good So that's one of my u That's that's one that I have. Do you So I haveve been on like one set. I did like a commercial that was like a five minute movie. So I've done this one time literally. And what it felt like is if it had extended for days I would have fallen in love with these people. Even the ones I didn't like. we were like at summer camp, you know. We had to just like live in it That's it. You got it I mean, even more in your twenties and thirties, because you're just, you know, that's all we're all in a weird city outside of real time It's not the day world, It's the underworld. We're all in it together. and then the really disorienting part is when it ends. Yeah. Like where did everybody go? Ites doesnn't take that long sometimes to make a movie, sometimes like two weeks and then you never see these people again. Yeah, and you've gotten so close and you've shared whatever the material has stirred up and then it's over. When you're a kid, that was hard for me. Like where did they all go? I thought they were my family. Is there a person Wh you would pick to just like do a scene every time, just somebody who's just like it's comfortable and it's great and they're just a delight. Paul, Paul right? comomfortable and a delay. I mean, and I often to this day think If He'd been a dg. Yeah. What if we hadn't gotten along because it ended up being eight years. And I still I got a text from him yesterday. haveave you listened to Maggie Rogers' music? No, you should, you'd love her. So she's still a friend. But the luck of that, I'm sure you hear about people on TV shows I've directed TV shows I directed a show in season one, the two leads got along great. and I came back to direct an episode in season two and the first assistant director said, Can I talk to you from it? And I went, Oh no. And I wanted to bash their heads together and say, in one minute, you won't have this job In one minute Don't blow it by not enjoying it In one minute you won't have this job. That also reminds me of this thing where you had this tension between not wanting to be more famous, having been inside of that knowowing that it's awesful Just dehumanizing. It's awful except you get good tickets to plays and seats and restaurants, which honestly, I can't say it's so awful. Can I please get a table in one minute You know what I mean? So to be fair It has both qualities, but it can have teeth. I mean, you know, it can be not good. It can be dangerous. Yeah, I mean ye. And then being like, okay, well, this isn't worth the trade offff for me. It may be for some other people, but it's not worth the tradeoff for me. So the tables and the work are good parts of it Was the part where like people loved you good H It's just I used to love James, I do still love James Taylor, just predictably. wouldouldn't you if somebody said, Who do you think Helen H was loved growing up? Predictably. But I used to go to his concerts and people who were obviously so moved by his songs would ye, I love you, James and Nod and then he goes, It helps not to know me So even though that's a little bit snarky, it is very different experience, you know, for them For sure the person who's being projected upon. Yeah. The weird thing is I think that a fan Because I am a fan of many people. I can project something onto someone that is correct. It lines up, but it's still side by side. It's still two different things how you are in my projection, evenven if I'm spot on Do You know what I mean? Oh for sure, I always say that everything you see of me is me, but you don't see all of me Yes, I guess that's it. But even if they even if they guessed all of it, it's not the two things dont yeah, I mean It's a Vin diagram, but it doesn't line up totally. Eventually you have to add on all the parts where You're just like annoyed because you're in the same room with me because that's like what we do eventually. you know? eventually even like all of the best is annoying in some moments. Mre exposure can be too much So your dad directed theater? He directed theater. That's primarily what he was. And then when he he directed a lot of plays, then there weren't a lot of plays. And he was really a model of you keep making work And the outside world will want it and then they won't want it and they'll want it and they won't want it, but you keep finding a way to make work. So he became an acting teacher, he directed animation, he directed tev And then he kind of aged out of that and someone approached him and said, wouldould you ever want to do motion capture video games? Oh L d out at like seventy seven? Wild. I know. So he learned, I have a great picture of him working with someone with the dots all over their face.. He's like a reennaissance man. He just kept making work So your parents were somewhat aware of entertainment when you started. Yeah, I grew up in an artsy community. My parents' best friends were children's book illustrators and art historians and composers So I wasn't like, sorry, everybody, I want to be an actor. It was not outside their imagination that that might be where I'd land. You have a credit on IMDB for like forty nine of the last fifty three years. That's freaking weird. It is weird, It is weird. So I want to talk a little bit about like starting out at nine But then like it seems like you're fairly unscathed. Being a kid in Hollywood is not like famously the healthiest thing But maybe there were things that made it A little safer for you? A couple of good things happened. I started by studying, acting even before the nine year old first job and then studied all the way through and yesterday I had a coach over here to work with me on chehecku. So studying has been I love it. I believe in it. I'm very rabbinical about the work You know, only so that I can throw it out and have fun when I step in front of a camera or on stage, but I am like Coaches come over here and they're like, Jesus. One person said to me, they'll like offer something up and I taste it and go, plut, that's not it. But when it's the right thing, I get very lit up and that's slightly more rewarding for them. So I think that was one thing is that the acting itself was fun. It wasn't the set or the come and go of the famousness. The other thing is that I was lucky not to have the, you know, addiction gene because that takes so many people in our lives down in the business. and I didn't have that very lucky. And I was never on a big hit show as a kid. so I didn't have to overcome that. That's really interesting. The good thing about all these weird credits you haven't heard of is I just got to act and work and meet people and I had a couple of not great things happen on movies set that's definitely. I never had to over I see what Daniel Ragliffe is doing on stage. and he's like G y'. I' working and working and working and coaching and working and singing and working. and you can Harry Potter all you want. but here I am in my next show. I mean, that's I didn't have to do quite that because I didn't have that huge thing. And by the time Mad aboutout You happened, I was in a bunch of movies. So it all kind of became a deck that got shuffled and I wasn't pigeonholed into anything. There's such a gift. I've had this in my career too to like No exponentials Just linears There's your brain again. dum it down and tell me what you mean No like suddenly I'm huge, but instead like it's just getting a little bigger every year or it's getting a little smaller every year, it's getting a little bigger every year. Correct. And you're just sort of like you ramped into mat about you. And I don't know how old you were in that series, but like you were an adult. twenty nine or thirty thirty, seven or eight. so Yeah, I had already worked a lot. In fact came, you know, we had the best guest stars of any show in the history of television shows. It just became a cool thing for these generation before us comedians to come on the show and they just kept coming and coming and coming. But when we'd have younger people guest star None of us were like, Hi, we're the home team. You're here for a day. We all were very aware that in five minutes We'd be guuest star on their TV show that we're all just journeymen actors. rightight now, we can exhale because we have a cushy job. tomorrow we won't So that was, I think what made the set a place people wanted to be Did you always see it as work But did you understand it as like a job people have? I was with my dad when I was very young and he was directing plays And he took me to the theater I just knew I want to be in these rooms. I really never thought about acting. I certainly didn't think about B I wanted to be in these rooms with these people Overwhelmingly yummy people are drawn to the theater, like incclusive, weird in the best way, literary people are drawn to being in those rooms. I was like, I want to be with them. I also had that feeling of like, A story is being told that might be scary or sad, but it's also safe because we're in this container together. We're all in this room and we know it's going to end so we can put our toes in these funny waters, these spooky. I loved that. So that's what I knew In terms of getting jobs at that young age, it was sort of like other people were in band practice at school and I was going off to do a couple of episodes of a TV show or be in a movie. It wasn't a career path at all. It was just, I'm liking this the way people say I like Cheerleading, I like, you know, math club. Yeah. I liked this. And I've heard you say that if you don't like it when it's a grubby bunch of weirdos, get out. Playing for thirty people. justust don't do it. Don't do it. 'cause that's mostly what it is. Yeah. trruly in the best way. I was surprised the first time they put me in a room with like a true crew and like how much of it was nothing. Just like me standing around while the cameras got set up. just a huge amount of that But the exception is when the crew actually gets invested in the story. Yeah. I was in this movie called The Sessions And it was a very delicate story about a man, a differently abled man and his desire for sexuality, and that's where I come in. I mean, it was so vulnerable hot steamy love scenes, like the most Yeah deconstructing sexuality and it was It was vulnerable for the characters we were playing. It was vulnerable for the actors. And I remember this moment where the dolly grips, so the guy who's got the camera on wheels and has to roll it into place We had this tender scene we're naked or half naked or something. and I remember him rolling the camera onto the mark while looking away And I thought He cares. He cares to not embarrass the actors, but he also tell they believed in the story. And so that's cool when peopleople other than the actors and the director actually care about getting it right and overwhelmingly that's true. It matters to the costume designer if the raincoat is off because a bad raincoat you know, could ruin a movie, Jim Brooks once said. That's interesting. So you are in a way performing in public. It's just for a smaller public. Like there is a little bit of an audience there but all people who are very invested Not necessarily, I guess. There are times when you're acting your heart out, you look over and some grip is texting, and you're like, Ohh, it matters not at all to you. Yeah. I'd never heard this before, but I heard you talk about the magic sentence. Can you explain what the magic sentence is? Yeah, I've written now three screenplays. I'm about a week away from being done with the third one. Oh, congratulations. Humbly And I've been in a lot of movies with a lot of good writers and directors and The best ones you find what is the magic sentence of the movie. So for example, I made this movie called Then She Found M, which does mean a whole lot to me I told my daughter, when I die, don't have a memorial. Just show that movie. Everything that is me is in that movie. be done. Be so easy. Thank you very much. So it took me a decade find what the sentence of the movie is. And for that movie it ended up being you can't really love until you've made peace with betrayal with a capital B And I got that. There's a writer I love, Do you know James Helman? Oh funun to turn you onto a writer He's a first generation Jewish young in And he wrote an essay called Betrayal. And I was going through something in my life, Hank, where that essay. in fact I had it on my desk for a long time. A therapist had given it to me. and I mean three times I had it in my hand over the trash and then went Maybe I'll keep it. And then one day I was like, I think it's time to read the essay on betrayal But it's not just about the kind of betrayal you would imagine. It was about feeling betrayed by Let's not go down the rabbit hole of what it is. Is it something bigger than me? Is it? Is it the way things go? Is it whatever it is? Yeah, the universe is cruel Yeah. And in the worst circumstances, people rightfully fall to their knees and go, why? why And this essay dares to take that on And I can't probably do it on a podcast or squish it down into that, compress it into a thumbnail or something. but to me that maybe betrayal isn't outside of the plan, if there is a plan or the way things are, maybe it is part of it. I'll just leave it at that And then I went,, that's what this movie's about. And then I was able to write it and anything that's supported that you keep and everything that doesn't You throw away and it affected things. Bet Midler's in the movie, and she plays someone who betrays me over and over and over. And it affected what she wore. She thought she played a daytime talk show hostess. She kept saying, I thought I'd be in pooucci blouses. I don't know what it Pach she bl even is. But I put her in these classy jewel tonone colors so that the audience and my character would go, I think she's actually the real deal. Smash she could portrayed Faton Midler her character is like spot on in that like I understand every choice she makes and they are all bad choices. Like she keeps making totally understandable bad choices, which I love because you want to not hate these people Even as they hurt each other. So the magic sentence, I wrote two novels and I think that I had one stronger for the first one than the second one But I didn't know what it was until I heard you talk about this and then I wrote down The magic sentence for an absolutely remarkable thing which is you will become what the world wants you to be. Ohoy Fy. Re Wow. One of the things you said about the magic sentence is it's not really a good one unless you can argue about it The one I remember when I worked with Jim Brooks is he said in Broadcast News, you can't love someone you don't respect. Yeah. So if you think about that movie, she loves this guy and then sees this moment of horror from everything that matters to her. Can she still love him? So you and I could go have dinner and go She still loves him, right or wrong and And you could say it's not real love because you know, like it's juicy in that way. Do you think you become what the world wants you to be I really hope not. Yeah. I really hope not. I mean, because I don't know what the world wants me to be, but frickin Instagram, you know Let's hope it's not bad. Yeah, yeah. so my story is about a young woman who has a bunch of very weird things happen to her and as a result becomes very, very famous. And she becomes what the world wants her to be and it's not pretty I mean, maybe that's life's work to not be that Yeah. I don't know I think maybe one of the reasons you even want me on this podcast is who could figure out But the world wants me to be really. what do you think I mean, the world wanted you to be things at certain times. and let's be honest, like what the world really wants of, you know Aing women is not much. You know, Yeah or get plastic surgery or why didn you get plastic surgery? T me, you know, the universe wanted you to be famamous The universe wanted you to go hard and you took the break. You said no So I mean, I kind of took the break and the break was kind of thrust upon me. I did somewhat take the break. I wanted to have a civilian life. You know, did you see that George Clooney movie where he plays A very famous movie star Jay Kelly, and he says something like the business was saying you cannot stop for one second or will abandon you And then he says, and it was true I was right. If I had stopped, it would have And so I did feel like I don't necessarily want to do the next Romc. I do want to be able to not do that movie so I could have a minute to have a real life really be there with my kid and naively didn't quite understand it would, you know not be there in its full blalloom When I return, but then the The business changed too. so Also, if there's any design of the whole thing and I'm not saying there is I am now doing these plays I have been handed these that are like what I started the whole thing for. Interesting, yeah. So would I have said, yes, if I was on another TV show for eight years, wouldould I have even been available? No. so at some point begrudgingly Cranky as anything. Mbe you have to have faith that it's happening. in a way that is good for you Yeah. I mean, it feels like you want to work I want to work on good stories. That's really all it is. It's not even the part Good story. So my wife acts in theater and it looks so good to be thrust into the space with these people and then to be asked to do hard things and deep things and that's what it is. hard, deep things and I have an appetite for that You have written And then you ended up directing starring in producing I mean, producing the whole time, I trying to figure out how to get this thing to happen. That's all that means. prodroducer is begging, producing, you know, get the thing off the ground I mean, with Ven you Found me, you started with source material. It did, but did a lot of creating from scratch on top of that source material What you what are you getting drawn in by? What do you think that is Well, I just want to get the story made and no one else wrote it, so I had to write it and then no one else was making it. So I had to make it. And there was one time we were getting ready to make the movie At four times the budget ended up being made up. We got the money. I had bags packed and kids in camp and really a suitcase out I got the call, it fell apart And I said to him like who gets their movie made? I was super at the pe of these peaks and vallways at that moment, like who? And he said, whoever doesn't give up So that's been my motto. You can quit. or you can keep going. And so if it's true that the person who gets the movie madeate is the guy who doesn't give up, I have a good chance because I'm not a very givy uppy kind of person Do you think then she found me is a romantic comedy betrayal by God. parenthetically. And also lots of other people around you. It's so funny. Thank you. But okay, I'm going to do something that so there's a chat on the right hand side here and I'm going to paste in a scene from this movie. Can you see it? I knew this would happen. This is the generational moment. Yes, I do. I see it and I've clicked it. Oh yeah. it's okay if you don't want to do this, but can we run this seam You wanna switch parts Come on, don't make me do my own scene in a movie. Okay Come on. Okay. All right, I'm playing Colin F. And I'm And you're playing Hel and Hunt. Playing Hll and Hunt. Yes. Perfect. This is not what I thought was gonna happen. You were making me do much more work. Okay Check Okay I know what I did to you, to you in particular, kind of worst nightmare kind of thing, right? I knew that, even at the time, I knew that What else I'll do it again I will. I'll hurt you again. And again, Not like that You'd have to leave me if I hurt you like that. If we were together, you would leave me if I hurt you like that again, wouldn't you? Yes, yes, I would. Good. But I'll hur you in other ways, little ways I won't mean to, but I will, and sometimes I will mean to s quite an offer you've worked You'll hurt me too, you know? You'll hurt me and change on me. You might even leave me after you promise you won't. How about that I wouldn't you might But I wouldn't you might I guess I might You're so sweet to notice that. Thank you. This is what I mean. So at my funeral, which you hopefully will attend If you have any sense of decency, just make sure they play this movie. You've said it enough now. I feel like it's a requirement. So Romcoms have this moment where like Tom Cruise busts into the elevator and her N Z alliger iss like, you had me at Hello. Yes. This is like the sweetest one I've ever read because it's way more honest than all the other ones because like it's saying what we will promise here is that we're going to do with a hard thing. And then at the end of it, your character makes calling for a character makes him A admit it. This is in sickness and in health, but in like a much more beautiful, strong It's not just sickness and health. It's like I'm going be part of the sickness sometimes I'm gonna to hurt you. This is the wish of the betrayal thing, you know, this is the trying to fit betrayal message. Now, it also says, if you've seen the movie, you can see. there's certain kinds of betrayal we're not hanging around for. Yeah, yeah. It's just we don't do that Nevertheless, those things that come out of our mouth, those things we forget, those things we do on purpose even and then have to go, Oh my God, I just took a bite out of the person I love more than anything on earth. I was interested in that. in two people who might step forward together. knowing. that that is part of the human experience I mean, what a frickaking tear jerker It is. It's a little weepy at the end. And I have to give credit to the DP. The very last shot was supposed to be like the second of the last shot. And as he was shooting the last shot he said, this is your ending out loud. Oh yeah, that actual last shot is really gets you. That's all Peter Donahghan How then she found me And like it couldn't find an audience quickly. Well, because it didn't come out. It came out in two little cities and got some really lovely reviews, not all, but a couple of people really got it. And it was supposed to come out on Mother's Day And then the company that bought it part on the day and so they went chapter eleven and there was no ads in any Anywhere. Talk about a heartache ten years later like What do you How do you make meaning out of that? How did you handle that I wish I had some hack. Well, I just took four walks a day and it didn't hurt anymore. I just was suuper sad and shocked and devastated. Yeah I don't have a I don't have any spin on it, you know When people come up to me and say, For these reasons that movie mattered or for no reason because the movie got them. But for some people, they have personal stories that line up with some of the stories in this That's super satisfying You know It's Colin Firth, It's Bat Midway, it's Helen Hu. Matew Brodwright. Matthew Broadwright, who I don't even want to mention because his character's such a But he's so good. He's so good. That guy, I hate that guy. I've known that guy. Me too. I used to love that guy You hope to graduate from that guy at some point Is something super interesting that I heard you say that like when you write something, you sort of like hit the last draft, but then When you get to direct it, that's like yet another draft. This Hit me kind of hard And it's got to be so weird and scary because like you're drafting it as a director, you're drafting it with these tools that you don't have total control over which are these people whether they're the actors or the crew Is that How does that feel? That's the best part. You can't believe it. You've been sitting in a room for one year or ten years or seven years, writing something, writing something, writing something, and you give it to a few people to meet. Let's say you give it to a production designer or a cameraman And they come back to you and they go, here's what I see. And this makes me think of this movie and what if all the colors were muted? and what if the camera never cut here? And what if it was? And you're like you see what I wrote, not to mention you can bring it to life and create another draft just by how you shoot it or whether you put wallpaper or paint on the walls, you cannot believe that anybody even gets or gives a shit about what you poured your heart into. and suddenly, they do and they are bringing it You know, from Dorothy in the house to the Yellow Brick Road in front of you. That's one of the most fun Is it just fun? Are there moments where're like, you just don't get it. Like I can't get this guy to get it Well, I directed a movie where the prop guy was mostly high and not there So that was hard. Sure, sure. That was tough. Just people being bad at their jobs. Yeah, they're just bad at their jobs. That kills you becausecause you expect rightly and wrongly for people to care as much as you. You know, you hope they do. And people are good at their jobs take pride in their jobs. They're running through the sand, not making enough money You know, trying to help you get that last shot because you can't afford to come back another day. It's very moving to see people give a shit. It really is to me You know, most actors don't become directors Yeah. And like most actors don't become screenwriters And not working helps No That phase where I wanted to have a baby. Let me tell you I think a lot of actors aren't working. Yes. That is true. I look around at my community and everyone's like, what happened? But honestly, I never would have made then she found me except that I was pregnant and wanted to have a little time to have a You know, regular life. And then I was like, but where's all the fifty movies where I left off and they weren't flying in. So guess what? I sat down and wrote this thing that even though it broke my heart because everyone in the world hasn't seen it, it's you know, I'm very, very proud of it. and I wouldn't have done it You know, Martin Scorsese had been demanding I be in three movies in a row. wouldn't have happened. Why is Salmon rushy and then she hand me? Okay, there's a reason That's really weird. I know. That's a bummer. It is weird. You're right and it's a bummer that it's weird. Here was the thing. Are you ready? Well, let me just say, Samon Rushji is a writer. He is not an actor and he is just the doctor in this movie. Okay, hold on. There's a reason This movie touches on for lack of a better word, God, I don't have a great relationship with that word, but I don't think I made everything. So that's where I sit with all of that And it's not only a movie about betrayal by, you know me or Colin Furth, it's a movie about betrayal by something something bigigger. And so when they pray three quarters of the way through the movie, I didn't want it to necessarily be a Judeo Christian version of praying. It's not about that it's about Wanting something so bad Even if it's not your thing, you know, there's no atheists and fox holes, whatever that is, I didn't want it to necessarily be a Judeo Christian version of that. I wanted it to be more inclusive. So I auditioned a bunch of people Southeast Asian actors couldn't find the right person. They approached him without even me knowing it. Are you willing to audition? Yes, and he He did it And he was good in the audition and in the thing. He was great But I get that it's weird. I get that it's weir You were talking just now about how you don't have a great relationship with the word God Would you be willing to talk about that Yeah, tentatively gently. If I talk about it, I don't want to be poking at people's very, very, very precious thing. I'll just say, Annie Lamotte, I believed, you know her? You must know her Bird by bird, you have that book? Hank. What? Call me. I'm a big o old nerd. I read sci. writer. You're a writer. Read bird by bird. Okay. It's about writing. I could hand it to you. It's right here. I think she says it's like a bad nickname to her. She's very Christian actually and very devoted to God and recovery. She writes about it Here's actually the one thing I want to say about this. There are comedians, directors, I love that have made work absolutely proving the lack of whatever you want to call it. Let's call it God for shorthand. Yeah. And there are Obviously tons of people who say not only is it real, I know what it is and it looks like this white guy and nothing else will do Both sides Annoy me honestly. Is there no space for mystery? Can we not say there are there is one thing we don't know for sure. It's what keeps The whole thing of being alive sort of spicy is we don't know I've heard you say that you're not a God person. Can't we say we don't know? Can't there be one thing we just don't know for sure Oh, there's so much that we don't know for sure. When I say that I don't believe in God, what I mean is I don't believe that God as it was pitched to me Amen. No pun intended. Yes, That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying. God could be everything from like the alien that pushes the button on the simulation that started the universe to like the thing that exists between two people that is not measurable, but is the most interesting and complex thing in the universe. That's closer to me. Even if you go broader than two people, it is that thing that words can't touch I don't know what it is I don't know.. And I don't even know that it is, but I know that I don't know. And I don't think anybody else knows either. And that's exciting. That's like ye. And then when people use the word faith, I think they're saying, well, whatever road you choose, you don't get to know And maybe that's good. I mean, the big thing I believe in is people But I think that it's so hard to know how to be a person that I like begrudge no one any tool that allows them to do it well orr better. Yes, for sure or to handle the Betrayal. And so it helps me to say And I look up or out if I can see one leaf Or one bit of sky, that helps Beyond that, I know nothing I know nothing I don't expect you to know what the universe is made of. But I do It was this crush. Not that big, I guess. I like that you think this is a past tense crush How different is it to act in something that someone else has written and is directing than to do it yourself. Very different I don't even know if it's acting when you wrote it yourself. I guess it is, but you always are. you know, there is a moment. I do all this work All this work, I've been working for a year on this freaking play And then at the one yard line, I'm going to let it all go and walk out there and hope that something happens and that all that work will inform what happens. But I will not be able to call on it or remember it or use it intentionally But when you're directing, it's like whatever the most twisty yoga pose is in the world. On the one hand, you're pouring yourself into the part and on the other hand, you're going, the camera got there late. I know it got there late. I could see it out of the corner of my eye. So you just have to be extra ready Yes. And there's a loss and there's a game I have this weird thing, Helen where I feel like We celebrate the actress but we don't celebrate the writers And it's just because like they're the faces that we see and so they're easier to pay attention to is what it feels like to me. But like they're just saying the words that the people wrote down. They're saying them'm good, but like the I won four Emm'ys for Mad about you and I always heard You're like us in our living room. Our writers never got noticed The reason this show was special was the writing, the writing, the writing, that's not taking away from this weird chemical thing that happened with me and Paul. what an incredible actor he is. All of these incredible writers and somehow everybody thought, oh, it's Helen and Paul was not the case. But there is, I mean, obviously there is something to the performers. You know, the way you talk in that show I love I love your voice in that show. L I love her voice. It's me. It's very me if I had great writers staying up till three in the morning organizing it and putting it on paper. All of your quips at a cocktail party. And part of it's not me Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and then if you talked about as good as it gets, all of his movies, I mean, I think the reason He's one of those filmmakers that you can't change the channel if you come upon it. It's the writing I'm so proud of the work I did in that movie and Jack Nichol. I mean, come on. Yeah. It's, you know, actors working at their highest level And I can say at the same time, all of it is the writing. Do you really not feel as much of a connection when you are acting as when you I feel at least as much of a connection because I've poured myself into it, but then I have to go home and I can't change it. I can't I can't be I'm not in charge of it. I can't edit it. can't But you pour yourself in. Okay Jack said once, he's directed movies and he said, acting is harder. and you know, what's harder than defineed hard What he meant was, you pour yourself in in a very non linear, non thinky way. like it is it is, um flirting with being out of control when you act, which is why it's good for me. because I'm awfully organized. So it's good to mess that up. Interesting. But when you're directing, I mean, you get in this state of mind where you are like, I am going to I'm going to land this ship. Yeah And I'm going to be soft with you because it helps you do good work and I'm going to be harsh with you because that helps you do good work and I'm going to beg this person for a favor and I'm mean you get Very singular of focus. This is a weird thing to bring up, but I was listening to Christina Cook, the astronaut who just went to the moon and back. Yes. The crew. We're all a crew. The crew is people are, you, a group that is in it all the time, no matter what that is stroking together every minute with the same purpose that is willing to sacrifice silently for each other that gives grace That holds accountable A crew has the same cares and the same needs And crew is inescapably, beautifully, dutifully linked So when we saw Tiny Earth, people asked our crew what impressions we had. And honestly, what struck me wasn't necessarily just Earth, it was all the blackness around it Earth was just this lifeboat Hanging Undisturbingly in the universe I may have not learned, I know I haven't learned everything that this journey has yet to teach me There's one new thing I know And that is, planlanet Earth, you are a crew. Thank you That's gonna stick with me for so long. Me too. How beautiful is that at this moment So like a piece of that is that humans are the crew. Like we are all in this together. Like what is this? Yeah, We're in it. All, like all, not kind of all Not all that fit into my box, all tall order if you really hear what she said. Oh no, it's the tallest order. But there's also a piece of what she's saying that like there are times like when you have a job, you're working on a team But when you're like in a theater, you're kind of working on a crew I don't think that we should ask that of each other all of the time, but it is really nice to have some moments when we are all like of these ten people. all have to be pulling the ore in the same direction at the same time, at the same speed. And I do better if you do better and I do better if you do better. Those moments are so lovely. The psychedelic thing is then it applies to the audience that comes in. And somehow you're saying, and you are also part of the crew I'm such like an indie You are. You're writing books and in your room with your headphones on. I'm just editing my own videos When I do stand upp, like I'm on a stage, but it's just me and like all the words that I've written. I really need community. L that's something I need. I have people in the living room doing play readings and I'm meeting a dear friend for lunch after this and I need community for sure Do you ever miss comedy though? Like just drake comedy So Bad There are no words for how much I grew up on Lucill O Paul. I grew up on I love Lucy. L that's how I grew up. And then I end up and a a com about a married couple living in New York City. But the joy of and you know, it takes so much detailed Yeah, kind of brainy work to say, No, you gott to put the napkun on the edge of the counter because if I don't grab it the first time it won't be funny when I slam the refrigeror. But then go And if you have a partner that you trust, which I did I miss it so bad Have you ever thought about like I mean, I think the answer is no, but have you ever thought about just like Are you about to stay stand up? No I no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Oh my God, I can't picture it, but I think that you would do great. No, I can't quite, I can't quite sure. One woman's show, maybe I don't know. That's the bridge. That's the gateway jug. Just tell a story and have jokes in it, you know? But why not have other people with me? Why be alone becausecause I'm because I don't know. what's wrong with me, Helen I don't know. Do overwhelmingly like it and once in a while wish you had more community or is it a real thing where you're like, I gotta figure out how to turn this into having more of a crew Uh oh. I'm so sorry. You're welcome. I'll take that one and I'll work on it later. Okay. When we do this again in a year, you can tell me what you came up. Oh my God, that's an interesting question. That's an interesting what is going on here kind of thing I think that I can get frustrated by other people. That's the annoying thing about other people is that they can be annoying. When you spend so much time doing it on your own where it's just like I don't know, like I like the inner critic. And I don't like the outer critic Amen to that. I don't even like the inner crritic. Oh, I love the inner Critic, man. he's got great taste He's always right. You should read that on the map though. Okay Okay. Is there a part of how you're looking for projects now Is like community a big part of that? Well, looking for projects, I don't know how to look because either they offer to or they don't, which is the worst, worst, worst, worst before you work on it yourself. So I have a writing partner and we wrote a piece based on things I'd been through and then it all got fictionalized and brought a whole other story into it And we were going to make it as a TV show. the perfect network bought it and we had a writer's room and it was all they didn't make it So we licked our wounds and are now just about done writing it as a screenplay. And that's been nice It just helps if you're not a person who's alone in the room with the headphones If you are out there in community, it helps like I gott to write with Wayne at ten o'clock really gets your ass in the chair, which is a big part of the overcome for me. You know what I found was the thing that got me to finish the book was like once I Once I created characters that weren't like real enough I just couldn't imagine leaving him there in the middle. I like had to get them all the way through. They were like the community. They were counting on you. Yeah. Yeah Well, the beautiful, torturous thing if you ever step into the movie world is you won't believe someone could actually bring it to life or you'll go is not Exactly what I Yeah I don't watch movies I'm in. I'll go to see 'em once if there's a thing Premiere, yeah. Be For me, working on material, especially something as rich as what I'm working on now is this three D. I use my dreams. I free associate. I use Michael Chekov's work, who was Anton Chekov's nephew who developed a whole thing about imagic like I It's so rich. And then I see the movie and I'm like, well, it' fine. I. sureure It was fine. O yeah, I was kind of moved, but it's not the feeling of working on it. That is when people say process, that's the rich part. So obviously the incentives have continued to change in movies, but like media is such an incentivesy thing, you know, that the medium is the message, like how we can build Economies around content really affects what kind of content gets made. and that has changed a ton in your career How are you? processing that. I want to make sure I understand. you mean like the way it used to be in terms of there were for five networks, and then now there's a million. and ye, I mean, like there's like a TV difference. there's a movie difference in terms of like, you know, does anybody go and watch a dialogue based comedy anymore? I can't even, this is so excruciating. It really is Can't you do something You're on the cutting edge of things, canan't you fix it somehow I can tell you a bunch of things that will not make you feel good. No, I don't want that. I can add to the list of worries. No, thank you No, thank you. Hard pass. My daughter goes to movies, That's promising. Yeah. to be twenty two. They matter to her. The biggest piece of hope that I can say is that like people under the age of thirty were on the internet less this year than they were last year Now that is from a very high peak. Yes but it is the first time it's gone And you know, the last few years is the first time it's gone down in a long time. and I everything falls apart. Everything falls apart ultimately. So yeah Yeah. There is this weird effect where, you know, everything has fractured. and when everything fractures, there's just less money to go around. Right. You know, I'm out here on YouTube getting two million views on a video and I, you know I can't believe I was on a television show during a time when how many millions of people watched it at the same time. It's shocking Yeah. it's a different world for sure. It's a different world for sure. You know, art is subject to the incentives, art is subject to culture, art is subject to technology. It feels like it isn't. It feels like it should exist sort of like out there in some in some between everything space, but it is Here comes another reference you're not going to care about. Do No Sunday in the Park with George? I've heard of it you and I should really be Cooling our resources. 'ause you know so many things I don't know that I'm not even smart enough to even quantify it. The Venn diagram of Hellicont and and green is really not overlaps at all. Well, a little bit, but not a lot Anyway, Stehven Sondheim wrote a musical about George Serat, the painter. That's all about this There's a song called Art Isn't Easy, and there's a song about what it means to finish the painting and you have to get money if you want anyone to see it, but you've got to finish it It's an honest fight. Yeah. That's what I can say. It's an honest struggle And there's something to that I feel so entire like not entirely, but like You know, I wrote a book That's about like you becoming what the world wants you to be. And I feel that way about art. I feel like that like The art that gets created is the art that will get viewed that will get supported that will like not me I made the art and not a lot of people saw it. Yeah. But on my deathbed, am I going to wish I made something I didn't love as much Did more people saw it? No, I'm not I have like an itch in me before we end to pitch people on this movie and then she found me. I am grateful. I didn't even talk to you about it ahead. I want everybody to know that. Yeah, like do you love like pride and prejudice? It's very meaningful to me, thank you. because I think you're the technical term is a smarty pants And so the fact that you feel that way is very meaningful and I really appreciate it. Really, really. I love Colin Furth. He's like I know what a dream boat. He showed up with all of that, but like just I gave him one tiny little nudge for one take. That's the most fun part of directing You say something to an actor that doesn't Like how many pieces of direction have I gotten where my shoulders just droop? Like how am I going to make this director think I'm doing it the way they want, but really I'm going to try to keep some kind of creativity alive. So when you can say something to an actor and it lights them up a little that is the best, best, best, best, best part of the whole thing. Whereas when I have acted, I'm always like, can you just say it the way you want me to say it? And I can do that. And the directors are like, No, we're not allowed to do that. No, because we were all told we were not allowed to give a line meeting Yeah. One of the things I have found as I've approached mid career is I always feel better about the great work that I help other people with than the work that I do myself H becausecause I never believe that my stuff is that good Like my success doesn't feel as good as the success of someone who I helped What's your then she found me? What's the thing that you whether a lot of people saw it or nobody saw it, you know in your heart of heartsuck, I'm proud of that. That's just not how I am. I make so much stuff. I'm really proud of my comedy special. So I was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago and I did a special that is entirely about my experience going through that. And like ultimately The scariest thing about doing that is because, of course, like everybody's cancer experience is different And so if you're somebody who is diagnosed at like stage four with lung cancer, you don't have the same experience as somebody who's diagnosed with Hodkin and Filare stage two which is what happened to me.ight. And so like there's this terror of being like, I'm going to tell stories about cancer and you are going to hear that I'm making jokes about it when like it is not a joke to you. I want to absolve you of that fear. I just walked through someone's bad version and they died this year and it was totally devastating. But I know enough to know there is a breadth of experience and that there is a lot of rich stuff to come out of different kinds of experiences. So let that one go It's why it means so much to me is because what I have heard from people who are cancer survivors, whether they are you know twenty years out or their terminal is they they are to really appreciate it. And you're speaking to them. I mean, that's all we want is to be in a circle of people who can nod when we talk in recognition. Ready to go Helloen. Yes. I would like to ask you our final question, which is if there's something you've learned from doing this work that you think everyone in the world should know, what would it be goes fast, enjoy it, enjoy it, enjoy it, enjoy it. It all goes so fast, enjoy it, enjoy it kind of poaching it from Thort and Wilder in our town. Tell me you know our town.'s gonna end up. Oh my God. Oh my God togetherher we make one incredible person. The world grabs us and pulls us and. I mean, it's generational a little bit, but my God, the things I would like to know that are in your brain. And clearly you have some readings for. I hope you've been taking notes. N'veot been handing you lightweight stuff. I'm handing you James Heelman and Thorortnton Wilder. for God's skes Helen Han, thank you so much for being on this show and for being such a good sport. and I do apologize for my weird song What weird song that I wrote about you that you wrote that you forgot about already. I'm sorry. Well, that's also generational.. It's okay. Yeah. Clearly, you don't have to worry. No let that one go too. Okay, that's great news. I might just take it off the internet. It's pretty embaring. Y Tll take it off tomorrow so I can try to find it. Okay Thanks to all the humans who helped make this episode. Morgan Levy is the show's supervising producer, and Greg Ripppen is our engineer. Pyton Mitchell, manages our social media, Andrew Wuang, composed the music and James Barnard designed the artwork. You can and should follow us wherever you listen to podcasts I must do it more time. H. Hs