Reenchanting the World Through Wonder

This is humans Human human humanan humanan human Human human. I'm Hank Gre RadioLab was the first podcast I ever loved I remember putting on my headphones and just wandering around my neighborhood, letting the show's creators, Robert Krolwitich and Jada Boomrod teach me things, tell stories, and always without fail, surprise me But Jadob Umrod seems to have a knack for surprise, not just in the stories he tells, but in the way he thinks, and in the way that he has moved through a career that has to me, always seemed a little bit restless What grabbed me about his work was not that it was smart, plenty of things are smart But it felt alive and full of curation and choice And this is all kind of storytelling. What I loved was the stories. Jab's work is curious and it's open to being challenged by what it finds, and these stories make the world feel stranger and bigger and more worth paying attention to And that was a big deal for me. So much explanatory work, which is often the work that I do, can feel like it's flattening the thing that it wants you to care about while Jad's work often does the opposite If you want to tell a science story, you don't usually end up with a conversation about managing an elderly patient's bed sores But the way that radio Lab did science communication demanded that understanding and feeling were not enemies And maybe The best stories do both at once sppirit is central to Jad's work and it's carried through many remarkable projects like Dolly Part's America and Fella Kouti, Fear No Man, which if you haven't listened to that, why not? They're literally free and better than any other audio you might be currently listening to, including this interview. There's a sensibility underneath all of this and a jata boom rdness that just isn't like anything else that's ever been made. And not just in style, though certainly in style, but also in what stories he wants to tell or wants to hear, or wants us to hear, I don't know which of those things I'm very interested in people who seem to have built an internal compass for what's worth noticing. people who can make something careful and surprising in a world that often rewards fast and easy. But also, I'm starting an interview show. So I want to talk to somebody who's really good at interviews. Jha Boomerod, thank you for coming on Humans. Oh my God, thank you for having me. And what a wonderful, lovely introduction I wonder if you agree with all of it I I' you know, you think you're awesome? That' That's a tough question, Dick. I don't know. I'm you and I are talking. I'm a big fan of your work. and so that you would read the introduction makes me believe it. a little bit more than if anyone else did. So I also have that reaction when people say nice things. It's hard to be like, well, I think you're wrong when Well, I mean, as you know, it never feels like all the things you say never feel that way from the inside. Yeah. You always feel lost and stumbly and like not sure what you're doing. For sure I hope that the podcast producers of the world will forgive me for saying this, but I think that The most podcasts that I listen to If you ask me who edited it, or who produced it I would be like, I don't know. But if it was something that you did, even if it did not have your voice in it, I'd be like, well, that was Jad I am curious. What you think Led to that H Well It's funny when I think of my voice It includes editing R? It includes the the music of the cut. underneath the voice. Perhaps we should say that you're a music producer as well. Yeah. And also when you are producing there is a relationship between music and spoken words often in your work. Yeah, where those things are becoming the same And they're blending between each other in a way that I don't know. You know more about this than me, but it doesn't feel like anybody else does Well, have you ever, so when I first started radio lab, I was given a box of old radio L like experimental radio from the sixties through the eighties Have you ever heard Ken Nordine No, Dad. So you would enjoy him. So made he made an album called Colors and it's like a series of I don't even know you wouldd call it like beat poet. riffs on the different colors, blue, yellow uise, whatever he has like these whole things. And if you listen to Ken Nordine That's a guy who is speaking, but he's He's treating the words like musical objects. R, right. So I remember listening to him And a lot of the people You know, in the history of radio who had that gift And I remember really wanting that, But when I just talk I never tell the story the right way. I always sort of stop when I should lean in, and I zag when I should zip. it doesn't come out. the way that I can hear that it should And so I find the voice in the edit, I can sort of find those musical relationships, you know That's really the thing is having an understanding of what you want something to sound like Do you feel a little bit like when you're in an interview situation and you're interviewing people? do you feel a little bit like This is not as beautiful as it could be if only God could put his foot on the pedal. Oh yeah. I mean, that's a wild bos. Cstantly constantly so like Robert was my partner through most of radio lab. and he had that weird gift where he could sit down with a person and in the moment create music, Like just the way that he speaks. Just the way that he speaks, the way that he kind of leans into what a person is saying It's like you can feel this little bubble being created. around It's not that you think all human communication could could be more musical, it's that you think you're not doing. I just think that me, I'm a socially awkward guy and me in conversation doesn't get to the music that I know could exist I don't know that sentence there was really love. Oh, olca, thank you. I mean I will hear a thing and' be like, oh that Yeahah, that's got some physzy energy in it. If you stick me in a dark room with P tools and some plugins, I could do something with that Yeah. I'm not the kind of person that could do that in the moment There are there are those people, you know, who just spe those people for me are like magic. Yeah. They're like aliens they can make it happen in the moment I mean Audio is an interesting medium Do you have any thoughts It's not in my notes here. Do you have any thoughts on why I always have a song in my head Why you always have a song in your head the same the same I don't know I do think that we sing before we talk It's a more primal thing. Babies are singing before they're actually speaking We've all had the experience where person is losing their memory and slipping into dementia, but they can still sing the songs. R. That's the last thing that goes. L somehow the archecture of that music is deeper than the words. So Maybe that's why, like our brain is actually modeled for song more than it is for speech. When you were saying that we sing before we talk, were you talking about individuals or about humans as a whole? I was just thinking about babies. Okay, because I was thinking about humans as a whole But like that could also be true becausea certainly birds saying, yeah Yeah, they don't talk I mean, it's the same thing for them. Well, it's definitely saying Yeah. They they perhaps talk if they do, then singing is there talking So I like I'm thinking now because of course, language It didn't always exist. There was a time when our ancestors had none of it, and there was a time when they had like increasingly useful, complex versions of it that I'm sure was a Long Spectrum, not something that happened one day the idea that Music was I don't know why. this is a very like hank green problem, but I would never think that music would be a part of that process where that's singing, I don't know if music is the right word, but singing would be a part of that process. But of course it was Yeah. I mean, if you think about sort of the if we can make up a story, of the first humans who had to communicate, it was probably gestural language. Yeah of shouts and Ts and various things Closer to music than words, right?? Like, you know how curse words have a very primal free language thing to them It was probably closer to that. Like a noise punch. Yeah, noise punch. right Can I digress Oh, you like a good digression, right There's this guy Herbert Spencer who was emorary of Darwin Maybe a little bit after He had a terrible idea, which is that Darwinian natural selection could be applied to the social world ure which is in the social daralism, which is a horrible idea. But one of his good ideas was that if you took the words that we used and you stripped away the actual meaning and the phonemames that create the words boiled it down, what you would actually have is music He called speech a form of amplified music in a way which I sort of like. becausecause it's like when we're hearing words, we're actually Also hearing music, underneath the words, right? There's definitely rhym it. Yeah. There's accent. pitch like's sort of like glides up and down and there's staccato and there's cadences. These are all musical objects. This is not something I've thought about. I remember like studying in music school, there was this whole category of composers called the gesturalists, and they simply made motifs that went. Yeah Like these things have inherent meaning, right? If you go up That means something. if you fall down, it means something. And I bet the first communication, we're just using our voices to do that the reality of musical I've always been very confused by this, but the reality of like music having feeling. In eight to the human Now like, you can play me a minor chord and I'll be like, Dad I me have a mjor chord,'m like, happ Like what How is that a thing? And also, these chords are mathematical. That also bugs me Mm, when it's like it's it's whole number ratios is what matters? Yeah. Get out of here That can't be a thing. How does my brain know That like you multiply two twenty by two feeleels good And it's just the number oscillations per second in the air I just feel like there's more stuff that we don't know about the brain than there is anything else pletely But I don't know that mine are always is sad, though I think I apologize. No, no, but that part of it, I do feel like is is that's where Is there cultural construction there? Yeah. You listen to Dolly Parton song though, and be like, that's a sad song. You don't have to speak English. Yeah, yeah, especially her early stuff. That's what yeest. But a lot of Sad songs are now over major chords. That's a thing that you hear a lot I believe you You know, I don't know, and like It's like sad and happy at the same time. Yeah. H's music? house music Yeah in the world right now. How are we doing? God How do you find popular music to be right now Okay. I'm going to I'm going I'm going to answer the question. Yeah. but also tell you first, caveat it by saying, I have no business answering this question It's sort of a joke in my family that I don't listen to popular music.. I listen to really weird music We drive down Flatbush in Brooklyn and there's a Paramount Theater that just opened. And on the Marquee, they'll always have the band of the moment. Yeah And it's kind of a joker E every time I'm like, Ohh, who' that? And then I'll just immediately look it up and listen to it. That is my one connection to popular music. is whatever band happens to be playing That's a paramount gun at any given day. I was in top forty r. I do not. When I go get groceries, I will hear it. Sure. I don't have a high opinion of most pop music And I don't say that as a music snob You do say it as a music knnob. kindind of do everything you do you do as a music knnob. I mean, kind of, but I also like really like low brrow stuff. Sure. Okay. I grew up on hair metal and like a lot of bad music, good, bad music. Yeah I don't know, you know, there's some way in which the u What I hear the tools a little too loudly and I don't hear the people. H. So a lot of trap, a lot of like modern I hear the hi hat samples and I hear the kick samples And I'm like, this is the same box We're all drawing the same samples. I'm like use a different kick sample. I mean, that's a very specific way to hear, but that's where my brain goes. I can hear the different pieces of what makes a lot of this music because I make music. And I'm like, you gott just be more creative in the ingredients. So this is my wife's complaint about how every movie always has one of four Chises in it And so you're like every song has one or four kick drums in it. Yeah. And but the reason why every movie has one of these four chises in it because We're comfortable with that, Chris. We like that, Chris. you mean like a Chris person? Chris fine Chr see Hemsworth. This is just a lot of these Chrises. Yeah they they're sort of the middle of the road, Chrises. Yeah. I feel very mean to Chrises suddenly But they all do sort of seem like a little bit the same. Yeah I think that there's a certain amount of We're going for broad that I worry about att the same time I think that underneath the broad, so like we've got this big broad like Chapel R Sabrina Carpenter Taylor Swift thing I'm sure that there's a bun of people in that world that I'm not mentioning But I just feel like right now in the weeds It's better than it's ever been Interesting. There's so much weird stuff being made right now So as a crudgingly old person. Yeah And it is my sort of generational right to criticize of course all of the youth culture. I still do find that Instagram is really great for this All the weirdos somehow bubble up and pass briefly in front of mine. and I've discovered a lot of really strange music Yeah. The music of now They're not as concerned about genre as we were coming up true You know? Yeah I grew up in a world of genre polic There were the jazz police, there were the classical police, there were the like Techno pololice Yeah and the fourteen different sub genenres of Techno each had a police personerson. And I've got like hip hop hyperpop And you're like,, Yeahah,'re like, what is that? How could that be a thing? That is completely a product of the YouTube age. Yeah And like you see like these people who are just like obscenely talented drummers or piano players And clearly they learned on YouTube. And it's sort of beautiful and liberating in a way Although it makes me a tiny bit sad Again, this is the old person talking becausecause when we were coming up You followed these bands and they were like, there was a story. Yeah, you know. And there was a scene. There was a scene Do you feel like you came up in a scene like a W oneYC scene. It was not was sounds so quaint. but maybe maybe, Mbe it was the scene. I mean, certainly Brooklyn, Brooklyn and podcasting. It was lousy with podcasters. I remember literally walking down the street and then some I just realized that phrase comes from word Louse Oh, I it was a bunch of lice. It was lousy with podcastters. Brooklyn was infested with podcasters full of podcast men, little white men lysas They have been deLoused at this point. so That's a certain kind of gentrification about the podcast movement. anyway. Yeahes. so yes, it was win What year was this? This would have been s maybe. Okay. because now everywhere is lousy with podcasters, but that but it's that meaning the word has shifted and changed it. Yeah, It means something different than it did I think it was somehow in the COVID era where A lot of celebrities were like, ooh, this is how it can be heard And then the venture capitalists were like, hereere's the money. And that really changed and opened in some really good ways. So I'm not just again, sure there's good stuff So Ats, Brookn Arts Brooklyn That was a scene wereere you just out of school then Yeah, I got out schoolore in ninety I think that was the year Back in Stone Age piddled around New York and did various jobs for about four years and then wandered in the side doors into radio at a community radio station first And then I graduated to WNYC And then I happened to be in the halls when they shifted and changed the entire ation This is in the wake of nine hundred and eleven. and radio lab was born far, far too early for me, way before I was ready But there was an opportunity and I just stepped into it and I learned on the go I listen to this this talk that you give it Oberlland which I'm whereere you going to Berlland were I wasn't there. You were not a secret Oie were you? We have many operatives in the field. and I was like, arere you part of a tribe? No, no, no. I was like, whyy does he look at me like that?ike, I knew I liked you. No, you've never heard of my school. Oh you. So you give this talk at Oberln with Robert, where you share the first thing that you and Robert ever made together You do what I'mking This would be the flag dayayce. flag day piece. Yes Yes. So Ira Glass had said we want to do this show that's like it's like an hour long, but everything's two minutes long inside of it And so produce a two minute on thing. and you produce this two minute on thing that has all of the fingerprints of radio lab no direction like that it's pointing in.? So it was just sort of like mocking something that wasn't really If I could try and extract a vision from it, it's we're making fun of a record from the nineteen sixties that's about how to treat the American flag. Yeah, so it was a strange genesis of that piece. It sounds like to me, can I guess Two guys. giggled about a dumb thing and they were like, we gott to make this Kind of ye. yeah. I mean, it was also just the strange genius of Robert Crolwich. and I was I was sort of new And he was not new. He had been doing radio and TV. He didn't part of the Cort that invented national public radio and then had gone on to have a TV career and For some reason, he and I started playing and working together And um I I have to interrupt, I'm sorry for some reason You're a young guy. this is this legend in the field How the heck do you guys start hanging out all the time Well, because I I had Did you want the long story or the short story or the medium story? I want to know if you did it on purpose No, no, no, it was fate bringing us together So I had created radio lab. It was existed on a backwaters of the AM schedule. Okay, at a time on Sunday night. where, uh where no one was listening. and that is quite Was it lit sci focused No, no, rememember I was telling you that I had a box of CD's of old old radio and Ken Nordem was in there. At that point, it was literally just play documentaries from around the world borrow and steal old work from producers and I just put it on and I would talk between them. Ohs So there was no science at all. But I was starting to kind of get curious about science because my parents are scientists It felt it was an interesting time in the development of like FMRIs and that technology and neuroscience is all that. Around that time I would sort of do odd jobs for the station to justify my existence in radio lab because nobody was listening And one of the things they had me do was go out and record thirty second spots with various luminaries in the New York media scene He was on the list. And I remember the first time I walked into his office, I handed him a script that I had written And he like kind of glanced at it. he was like No, I' not saying that. Put it down. And then he like wrote some crazy thing. Yeah. This would be a pattern that would repeat any time I tried to hand him a script. Yeah. I was just like, this guy's really interesting We started talking we realize we Both went to Aberlin Both worked for a second at National Public Radio WVI the community station where I started And we just had all these parallels. And so I took a chance the next day and I was like, would you have breakfast sometime so we just started having breakfast. And you wanted it to have breakfast with Robert Kroich? Just because he was he seemed like a really interesting guy who knew the way the media world worked. the most talented smmartest human I've ever. in my life. I mean, I'm so Like obviously that's like a life changing relationship. Yeah. And I don't know how those It does seem a little bit like asking someone to go get breakfast isn't a little thing. It wasn't, but we both recognized like this is weird. We have all these parallels because you both went to Oberlland It's like it's like a shorthand. And yeah. I should have lied. You should have been like, Yeahah, whatever that is. Listen, you're already an honorary Oi in my heart. Okay. But I went to Oberlin in New York Ohio I forget where we landed. I just ye breakfast, breakfast. Yeah. It felt natural. Robert it's not a scary He's not one of those scary legends. He's like very curious open legend and So you know, we had breakfast and then one day he heard a thing I had made on the radio And he was like Let's make some stuff together It was somewhere around there where the flag day thing happened. Yeah. We hadn't really yet made anything of consequence And then Ira was like Do you guys have anything? he said it to Robert, not to me. And I was like, Iyaglass is the greatest radio maker I was like, this is my chance. And we made this thing and I had just happened to hear an old sixties record of to treat the flag You just happened to hear it. We don I mean somebody heard. Somebody had sent me this really hilarious audio from a nineteen sixties book about. How to properly greet the flag? You know, which hand to put over, which side What Northwest stre there are many flags in what sequence do you salute them? y,a We decided it was so funny. Yeah. According to the law, our flag should always be raised briskly Faster Johnny faster. Hey' tryin. And to the very peak of the step. Please When the flag is displayed over the middle of a street It should be suspended vertically. with a union to the North. On an east west street. Excuse me? Or to the east on a north south street. Doesn't that street run east west? I think it runs east west, but doesn run east west since I It runs north. That's. run north south since I've been a Kad Mark Yes, Eddie. I got the American flag, the police regimental flag, and I got eight thumb tacks. Now what should I do? You put up both of them Edie, but you got to listen to the math. So yeah, so we ended up making this thing and I are a famously He didn't just hate it Apparently him and his staff had multiple meetings about how much they hated this piece. When did you find that out? Well, that was later. I have since become friends with him and he confesses. he' like, yeah, we really we really hated that. We hated it so much that we all like hung out to talk about how bad it was the way you hung out. It wasn't just how bad. it was somehow offensive to them I mean, I listened to it twice Because of how visceral Ira's reaction to it was. Beause when I've heard it, when you guys played it, I was like, that's fine. Like it's overwrorought. It's like they put way too much into it. Yeah, it's overcook. But then the way how much he hated it, I was like, what is he seeing that I'm not seeing? It seems like two minutes of goof. Well, exactly. And this is the thing, when you hear it now, in light of radio lab and its' history, you're like Oh that's Oh have guys That's those guys doing what they do But at that point, There wasn't a lot people doing that Yeah, really what's pretending to be a ten year old boy Yeah, and I have to tell you, hey. Watching Robert Crawich in the studio conjure other characters is a truly magical experience. I remember that session because we were like, Robert, we need to make a crowd. So can you just be other people And he starts like he was a boy talking to a woman, then he would become the woman. And then he would come an old person yelling across the room. And I was like, this is amazing This is the most theatrical thing I've ever seen Yeah I think it was too theatrical for Hyra You know, it didn't get accepted For the thing. Did you feel rejected? Oh, very. Yeah. Yeah. I mean It's two minutes. It's two minutes, but it's like to get on Iiris show. No, I mean, it's two minutes. It feels like you should like What's the big deal? just put it on. You know, you need a bunch of these It's Robert Crowitch. You reminded me, one of the things that Irra said to us when he rejected us was You know who you lost to He said this in the moment. He said this to he and Robert were friends and so they could jokingly have this conversation. I was mortified But he's like, I h it two mines passage of water going over scallops Just the sounded And you couldn't even beat them. It was ASMR.. like beach, ASMR, be the thing that you guys probably spent two weeks on. I was like, o God, my career is over U Yeah. Yeah, how bad did that hurt I mean, it was It was funny, you know? A that point, like, I really didn't know anything if I had any ideas that would go anywhere.. So I do it did feel like a little Peble on the scale towards Phill, you know I do remember that feeling But it was also it was a small pet. It was like not, you know, there's a lot of There were other things going on. and you had this new friendship with Robert Crowe. But at that point, you remember like the show was Marooned in this space where no one was hearing it and I was like, this feels like an opportunity that you only get once. And it's nowhere How long do you think you were bad at making radio? I was thinking was bad for a long time I'm having a tree of thought.. I can see. I was like there's so many flavors of bad, some of which persist. but I think what you are referring to is like the early bad, right? Well,, I mean what I really mean is like How long were you making stuff that you that you look back on now and you're like, You know, the first, I would say the first three years. Yeah I mean, there's so many things to figure out just like what story is interesting to you? This thing, right? Like how do you talk into this thing in a way that where you're still yourself I mean, it's interesting now with like podcasting becoming such a cultural part of our language I just think people wander into these situations knowing how to talk into a mic because they've seen it so much. I didn't have that. So like knowing how to be yourself took me forever. I would literally sit in the studio and record myself saying simple things on the script And every time it would be like another voice coming out, right Like some other voice that I had heard. You can't edit them together because they're different guys. Yeah, and I'd have to like just exhaust that until like an hour in I could finally hear myself But I think the moment I heard something that I felt was good You know, it was really actually at the moment when radio app was going to go away. L so that early phase Stason manager came to me and he was like, all right, so this little art project of yours is not working out. Let's put it aside. I do have this project Foggner's ring cycle is coming to. which I'd like to make a about it I don't know that is. So this is good because I didn't either I hadd heard of Wagner,, classical composer I thought the ring cycle, S sure, I'll make a documentary about athering cyc I was thinking it was like a one hour opera or something. It four operas each of which are about four or five hours. It tries to encompass thousands of years of German mythology And he intended it to be the work of art. Ended art He was like, after this, art is done.'t we don't need art anymore. And so like I just dont we don't have guys like that anymore. No I mean the bombass, the level of ambition And people worship like people in that world worship the ring sight it is like the, uh the Er text of that art form And I knew nothing about it, I ended up getting into that process and having a lot of rude awakenings along the way to the extent that I like I still have PTSD from that production process. L there was three or four nights where I wasn't sleeping. I remember like not being able to like type the script because the words were like kind of dancing on. Why were you so in I had two people who are opera buuffs editing me. Yeah. this is a a series of operas with fififty something characters And just to describe it would take the entire hour and they wouldn't let me leave anyone out. And also presumably like you had your thing canceled. How you had new thing assigned and you're like, well, if I don't do good at this, this was my test. Was this freelance Um kindind of yeah. I mean, all of early radio app was technically freelance. Got. I was being paid. Any, long story short. I got through it Yeah I remember hearing it on the radio weeks after the deadline and and thinking Hi, I sort of like that guy I like that whole. becauseuse what I heard was somebody telling the story And there were all of these elements kind of like coming in and out. And there's something about the level of density in the production and the way the music was sort of supporting the narrative The music and the voice were sort of talking to each other I was just like, oh, that Let's go there You know And if you listen to a radio lab, post that, changed Everything I've ever gotten good at I feel like I didn't get good by being like, I have to get good at this. I'm going to practice It got good because I was like, I'm just gonna to do this until I get good And For me, the thing that kept me doing that in online video was having a little bit of an audience in the beginning. And it wasn't huge, but it was like you know, a few hundred people and then a few thousand And they were mostly people who came because they liked John's books, which he had already published some of. They were largely librarians. You know, there' probably thirty percent librarians who loved John Green And so that's a great audience to start with by the way. If you want to start with a foundational audience, librar are a great way to go They were the thing that like made me keep making. Yeah What was making you keep making? It's a really good question because the thing that I'm quite jealous of in your medium is the way that you can measure and track the audience. Yeah and sort of you can sort of measure impact. It really changes I think it changes what gets made Yeah how it gets made, like it inffects everything. Yeah. Yeah. And even now in the world of podcasting, And this is there's probably a technological reason for this You can't really count people very very accurately. Yeah, you can get rough numbers, but. But I should show you my YouTube analytics, you would be. over the moon with how much detail I get. Can you get deep I can see exactly when people stop watching a video You know? Oh, I suddenly don't want that. That's that's too that's too much. Yeah becausecause that mean do you find that you then have to create based on where you to avoid that problem, whichich is in and of itself as actually a good thing. Yeah, for sure I do to Let's see, okay, I know you just asked me a question, but let me just offer a reflection. consume your videos ever feeling that you are playing to my You're not playing to my cheap instincts. You know, you're doing a thing that I'm happy to be on board with But I never feel like you're pandering at all I don't think I'm pandering, but I'm doing things. Like'll I'll tell you that something's coming up later in the video that I'm not going to tell you y 'cause I want you to keep watching. Oh, but's a shadow. some sign posting. Yeah. whichich is yeah. I mean, but like I think that like the line between Signposting and manipulating people is not a sharp one No, but I would put I would put it like this I think that there are those people who are happy to simply give the audience what they think the audience wants. then there are other communicators are a little more aspirational They want to aim in a direction that is slightly beyond where they are and where the audience is. And hopefully that you'll meet in that spot And I feel like you're one of those people You know you're pushing you're pushing beyond what the audience thinks they want Right. I mean, ultimately, I want if we're going to get into it. I want two things. like I do want you to watch my video, but I also want you to Well, hopefully, three things Second one is I do want you to think well of me by the end of it. Yeah whichich is like that's very important to me. And then the third thing is like I hope it delivers some value. But like really in like the deep hank. I'm like trying to get My classmates in middle school to like me Thats That's very. I think we're similar that way. Yeah. Yeah. So is that what's what's What's making you make Yeah when when you're like not that good at it when you're up For seventy two hours straight, all this stuff. It's one of the central questions in becoming a creative person is that how do you navigate that period where you' taste what you can hear and imagine. are far beyond what you can actually make. you know, and you have to somehow collapse that distance I mean, Ira talks about this quite beautifully. I mean he talks about it' the gap And there's other people who talk about it It's a tragic gap. You're standing in the gap between who you will be Yeah and who you are now And you can see who you will be in some Fuzzy I don't knowough at some point you make and you get through that gap simply because the act of making is ly pleasing It is and like really pleasing Yeah is getting better closing the gap Yeah, one day at a time Like I think that this like happiness research has shown that this is one of the best ways to have a fulfilling life is to have something you are getting closer to being better at all of the time, like musicians have this. Yeah. They've just got a thing that they will never be They will never Totally. Fish and that they will always know that they're making progress. But there is that like there is the sort of it can have a double edged sword, right Like I remember when I left radio lab and I handed it off and I was like I needed a minute to detox. I started drawing I've never drawn in my life. I've always taken myself to be a bad drawer by Linda Berry Wh's now one of my heroes She's an artist, a great teacher of art And I started drawing and doing all these exercises that she was doing and I was like, I've never been so happy just to simply like draw really bad pictures But then I was like Trying I should get better at drawing And then I got another book which taught me how to shade I still to this day cannot figure out how to shade.ike you draw endless balls and try and shade the light bouncing off of it And then that's when the question of like, Can I get better at this came in? And it stole all the joy away Obviously, like you make a thing and then you want the thing to complete the circuit and meet an audience M And that is Obviously where we're headed, but there is something about even before the audience is there, the basic joy of just doing a thing, of making a line on a paper or making a sound. There is some way in which I always feel as a creator, I have to keep coming back to that and just rediscovering like Oh, it just makes me deeply happy E it. something and to try a new music and the edit And if you don't have that deep happiness at the very beginning I just don't think you're going to survive You know? I You must have you can o definitely now. know, but not always. Yeah. notot when I first did it Like now that I have like some level of mastery of my craft, it's very fun. I really enjoy doing it. Totally. And there are pieces of it that people are like, why do you still edit vlogrothers videos? And I'm like I like it. I like it so much. like I just disappear You know? that, that that sense of like They've got all these problems and they just vanish sometimes. Totally I feel like some portion of your creative life always has to be reserved for just that notot for people, not for the marketplace You feel like you must be a bit of a perfectionist when I consuming your content, it feels like there are like a million choices that I can detect in a billion that I can't How do you like know when you're doing too much Yeah, I mean, this has been one of my problems. Like I think I have a perfectionism that borders on OCD a little bit that will hook me in some in some of these projects that I do better at it as I've gotten older the more of stuff I've made The more mistakes I've made, I realize like, okay You know, The making of a thing has always felt like life or death, but with each new thing can stand apart from it a bit more and just be like, okay Good enough. Yeah. Like good enough was not a an idea that made any sense to me until like my forties. honestly Wow You know, I was blessed with that for the whole time. That's why you're so successful. It's why I'm so prolific, at least. But no, it's good. I mean, feedback I have gotten from the beginning is like Jad You would go so much farther if you just understood good enough If you just did a little less. justust did a littleess did more. But each one a little bit less. Yeah, you know. embroidered. But I can definitely feel that like that's part of what you love about it. and it's also what very much feels you about a piece of content At the same time, you're talking about like this stuff that was going on in the sixties and maybe this has been something that's going on in radio forever, but we're just not. connected to that anymore and now radio has to be cheap It has to be. Yeah. And the way that you make radio is not Well, you know, it's funny I mean, when we were just a radio That was exactly what all the radio people were like What are you doing? Just turn on the mic and talk. Yeah. And and they had a point Because when I would hear radio lab on the radio It was just a lot. It was a lot to take in. There were a lot of choices and you know, you're like driving or you're It sets a very high standard, by the way. It demands a lot. Yeah, like for creatives. Sometimes creatives are like, o, I'd like to make make radio and it's like, well, you don't need to be making radio A. You don't need to be making like a full documentary film. Yeah. It's really fun to do. I did it I was on tour once and I made like a full like soundscape tour like podcast Yeah where like you had the like things it is so fun to make. L I'd never made anything like that where I was just like in The way that things sound Which is such an important part of humanity, but we see ourselves as being so visual. I know I know But the embodying space is very much about audio. Yeah, I mean, it's like have a very I have a very complicated relationship to my own perfectionism And I don't say that like in a humble braggy sort of way. I know it doesn't know it like it really is a st thinging that I creative that I can be that I that can work against me And these days I just try to do a lot of projects Yeah And so that eighty percent of them, you can't Yeah. It' a little bit of, you know, I definitely have that where I'm like, well I think I could make this a much better video, but if I do, it's never going to see the world. Exactly. and it's a little bit like all the other kids are going to Not get fed Yeah some way all the other creative kids. And so that makes a lot more sense to me How do you pick an idea? So I mean, I'd be very curious to hear where the fill out documentary came from. For people who don't know about this Fllow Kifo man Fella Kouti was an artist who was sort of a created an entire genre. But also it's a little bit like if Bob Marley was also Jay Rivera, like J and James Brown. And yeah, yeah. Mohammad Ali It J a really amazing guy who I knew nothing about. Yeah. And is it like eight hours I mean, it's thirteen episodes. Okay Roughly forty Yeahah, I would say probably like Let's say eight, okay. Imagine that it's an audioobook that is really fascinating. that's going to tell you a bunch of stuff that you've never heard of that's going to and enrich your connection with the world And that at every moment is like fully utilizing the world of sound Like the ability of sound to convey information to you but is free. Like, like people pay like twenty five dollars for an audiob book and it's just a guy reading a book that's already written But this is like an audiob book that is both like produced like a diamond polish And then on top of that, you're giving it away. Like I don't like what are we doing What are we doing? L what are you doing, Jad or No what are we doing What are we doing as a human race a little bit? Like it feels, I mean, of course the medium is the message, but it feels like there's this thing that could be being created, but there is no incentive to create thing that is as good as that. Yeah Yeah I that I was asking myself these questions in the negative in a way. you put a sort of a very positive vvealence on that question. but I was asking myself those questions in the negative while making the series. And I was seeing the way that My industry was shifting and changing There was a minute. there was a hot minute where it seems that People wanted to fund produce stuff because they thought that's what's going to drive the audience. I do think the audience wants that kind of stuff. Not notot everyone. No. I mean, I don't I don't as a consumer When I to listen to highly produced stuff, I like listening to People talk I likeow. I like B. Yeah, know. There's like a piece of me that that's always a little bit like, why am I listening to anything except niney nine percent invisible? Like I feel that. Yeah feel that too. Like that's so weird that that's a choice. Yeah. but I will choose three brothers being idiots Well, I have been thinking a lot about this recently. as the thing that you make, me, me once defined the industry is now increasingly a small island off off the mainland in a way. I'd be thinking a lot about like what role does that have and Like you say, why am I not listening only to ninety nine percent visible Yeah because they make amazing stuff. I do think that kind of work. like b luck the series, certainly asking you to listen in a certain way that maybe It's a mind state I don't always wantan to be in. You know? Yeah I want to be able to manipate and out of money more likely to Just start crying when I'm listening to something you've made then when I'm listening to you know guys. He's got to budget your emotional energies, you know? Yeah. There's just like worldes I want that. Sometimes I want to like really be in touch with something big and beautiful. Right Sometimes I need to relax No, and I get that. like I get that as a consumer that in the in the distracted insanity that we're living through, there are times when You want to be able to surf the wave, and then there are times when you want to dive into it. and I now make things. I make I mean, I made Fela very much with this in mind This is not going to be a hit in the conventional sense. Yeah tail on and it will be really fat and really long and people will discover it when they're ready you know. when they need a second to sort of their mind somewhere for a long time It'll be there, you know And I think increasingly that's where This kind of content will That's the role it will serve 'Cause that's I feel that in my own consumption, you know? You're making something that isn't about the views are going to get in the first week Yeah, it'll gather its own energy over time. Everything I've ever made has had that. trajectory to it It sort of sneaks in and it's sort of under the radar. and then it's everybody's favorite secret for a minute. Yeah. And then it has a minute where it's like, oh, look, here's the thing. And then it goes back under. Yeah. you know, And that's okay. I'm comfortable with that Sies has a lot of interterview in it, a lot of conversations that I feel like probably are hard to have. When you I walk into a room in a country If it's far away. people who have different culture than you And you're going ask them uncomfortable questions. What's your responsibility You're going into that with a you have an agenda of some kind, if only I hope that something interesting comes out of this. Yeah How do you feel like you're doing that job How are you making your choices? What's your responsibility there I mean, so I love that question, Hank. I mean, it' I very self consciously understood that I was an outsider. But on some level, I feel like I've always been that. as a Lebanese family coming to America We always felt like we were walking into rooms that weren't necessarily our rooms and what you learn very is that you you learn a certain move where you kind of stand very still peopleeople forget that you're there and then you can watch and just observe. and understand the rules and then speak when you're ready Turns out, makes you an amazing journalist. I think that's the sort of cast of mind that I think journalists need And I sort of systematize that over time And then when I went to Nigeria, I mean, it was very clear to me like I need I need to own the position of an outsider and actually use that position of an outsider Like I think there is actually As much as we talk about the sort of the danger of othering people, right, I actually think that it is in our differences where we have great gifts that we can give one another. we can sort of reflect back on somebody and they can reflect back on us. We see ourselves new in their eyes I went in with that mindset, but also with the team of Nigerian academics and scholars who were there to sort of gut check me and who crucially were not like necessarily like there to make me feel good. You know, and these are people who I don't want to say they were antagonistic, but they were not like part of my family, right But I sort of convinced him to come on board as like a crucial you know, sensitivity listening and also just like making sure things are correct Can you talk a little bit more about that about the otherness being useful thing There were all kinds of moments like, so, you know, we reported in Legos for a month, we went to Paris, we went to London. We talked to all kinds of people anyone who would talk to us And there were All of these moments were It was useful to misunderstand in some way For example, like Nigerians will talk about abuse They talk about abuse. person abused me We think of that as being something that probably means physical abuse But for them, it's like insults insults almost in a playful way so they can use the word in that context.. There were numerous interviews where that just too us into all kinds of dog legs that then we had to come back from. And understanding that difference became really important. It made us really examine the language and making sure and surrounding ourselves with people who could help us make sure that we were hearing the words in the way they were meant. You know, there are other times when people start talking about Like there was one moment where someone said If you give me a choice between colonialism or slavery, I'll take slavery any day. We were all like, whoa But then that led us to better understand the Nigerian experience of colonialism. And if you really get concrete with it Colonialism is typically not a concrete word Whereas slavery we have concrete imagery attached to it But if you make concrete What happened during colonialism? You're like, Oh yeah I see what you're saying You know It was that bad So there were these moments where you bring your own outsiderness and an awareness of it. becomes energy to create these spaces that you then fill in. and try and understand And then you go and you just listen for a while. We spent a long, long part of the process interviewing people before I even knew what the story was I just knew that this was an interesting guy and that he was telling me a story about why art matters. Gwai It's crucial. And I needed to hear that kind of story. So I was attracted to him as a character But yeah, you go into these conversations and Inevitably, you just sit and listen for the first twenty minutes don't ask a lot of questions and then The thing I always do in all my interviews is I go back again and again. so An interview is never just one and you're doing three, four interviews with the same person. How many times do you talk to Dalie Burton Oh my Godd, so many twelve times. Don't say it like that. I mean, a joy. It was It was amazing. It was amazing But she I remember one of the last interviews, she was like, you're still here. She wass like, what are you doing? And I felt the weight of her question at that point. But I look back on it and it's like you always want to get to that place Yeah where they're like, you still around? L' like Yeah, because I'm serious. You know? Yeah, I want to I want to know it all. Yeah. Also a very good series. I think was it every time that you went to talk to Dolly, she gave you that that little old dolly quip. Ask me anything you wantan to ask me and I'll tell you what I want you to hear. Yeah Which is like Dolly Yeah in autshell. It's like Dolly in a sentence Part of what I came out of that thinking is like, what a genius And she's a genius in a way where like you don't see it because she doesn't want you to the way that she uses humor The way that she is so it's the Judo that she uses during an interview to redirect a thing that's uncomfortable, but then she'll make a joke. It's like people should teach college courses about communication based only on dolly interviews And there's a thing that extends out from that. Like you did, you know, the Q score, I think is what it's called. Yeah, Where it's like how are celebrities perceived globally she's like top one or two in terms of people not thinking negative things about her. Yeah ye and You know, I think that there's a certain amount of like she's playing the cards she was dealt in terms of U So And so are we all. Yeah. But like what a masterful way of thinking I'm going to play the game of the entertainment industry and I'm just gonna win. Yeah in a way where she never even looks ambitious. And yet her face is on every billboard in Tennessee. I mean, it's amazing I interviewed her so much. Yeah I don't think there was a single question I didn't ask her It's still at the end, I don't know that I really No Her? Yeah because she's so able to create the feeling of knowing without actually the I don't know. It's hard to say, I mean, it's like she plays the game so well that I couldn't get past it. Can I give you Dolly Parton insight and you can check me? Yeah. I think that she has a a very interesting understanding of power That's very Nuanced You know, the series is called Delli Partonons Americ And so it is kind of a series about America. It's kind of a series about power. It's kind of a series about like partisan divide and like what was happening to us has continued to happen to us and how Dolly Partin somehow like occupies this space where like it's okay to just be American kinds of people at a Dolly Parton show aren't in the same room together many other places right. Right part of it where I think like she's so good at communicating, but there's part of it where I think she actually just has like a really complex understanding of human relationships in a way that makes it very hard for her to believe in villains That's it Okay, I'll tell you a story where that everything you just said really hit me in the face with her So the second episode in the series was really centered around her relationship with Portter Wagner Sure yeah, yeah. So She comes to Nashville when she's twenty oneince nineteen sixty seven. He's like the biggest deal in country music Syndicated show She joins astencilby to be just his backup singer. But because she's Dolly Parton within a year She's all anyone wants to see. Yeah. And he gets super jealous. and like starts badmouththing her in the press Ses her for three million dollars whence she tries to leave. Yeah. How does she leave She leaves by basically saying to him my own dreams And I will always love you. And she writes that song M. for him. Oh my God. I mean, that song has gone number one in like three successive decades. Yeah and That's the way that she leaves She leaves with this incredible act of kindness, but also insisting on her own power, right So like there's something about power, but she also is You know, we live in a Christian country, right? She embodies some of the ideals Some of it. Better ideals, I would say of Christianity than almost anyone. And so she leaves by singing that to him. And it's like, Beautiful and it's beautiful to him, but it's also like she walks away with A song that going make her way more than three million dollars seven generations of her family will live off of. Do you know what I mean? Yeah It's amazing. It's amazing. Like she's like she does it all in like these solitary gestures in a way that's amazing It's like you're playing a game of chess and then suddenly she's like actually, there's a piece you didn't know about. you know? This' like there's like super queen. Exactly. And she And she's going to win this game so hard and you had no idea But you have to be a dolly level genius to be dolly level good. I mean, she is like the unicorn of unicorns. Yeah. I don't know if there'll be anyone like her when she is no longer with us. Yeah, you know So we are going to continue benefiting from all the many things she has made. Absolutely So I do science communication Radiob feels to me like it started as a science show Okay, but like a weird one And love I love how weird it is. And it also was very enabling and inspiring to me to be like, okay, we're going to do a science show, but then sometimes there's to be a story that isn't science in here. Sometimes it's just gonna like make me feel Like of course, the reason that we do all of this is because we're humans and we're being curious and we're frustrated with the state of the world and we don't feel like we have to live in a world that has problems and so we have to think our way through them and out of them But it feels like revelatory a little bit becausecause that's not what growing a reading scientific Americ deffinitely wasn't what I was reading. you know, Carl Sagan did this, but in a way that was always very sort of like It was about like humumans as an entire institution or about You know, the number of grains of sand on the beach and the number of galaxies in the universe. Radio lab would be like Here's this story, there's this episode where you talk to Lonard, Heyflick like, you know, his original research on telomeres and figuring out why cells can't divide infinitely. and then you talk to a researcher who's looking at Wm longevity. By the end of the episode, you're talking to a father and a son. about there project of documenting the death of the father's father Yeah. Yeah. And the episode is about mortality And I'm like, I'm here for radio lab. and I'm like I'm gonna Oh, you got you got the guy from the Hflick limit And And then by the end of it, I'm like God, we will all H How do we want to do that And how do we want to treat each other and the father? At the end of the episode, the father who is the son of the man who's died is like, I just wanted you to treat me soft That's not what I'm coming to science journalism for It was very enabling for me as a communicator because like if I'm going to do science communication, like I was thinking I was going to be writing for scientific American But I get to do it however I want to do it because I'm just a YouTuber And so so thank you for that, but I'm wondering like what was behind that? likeike what inspired that direction to go in You get you got me emotional. The, you know I I don't think it was consonscious, You know, I was a humanities kid. I was a music kid. And I was So know, I was the product of two scientists As kids do I ran in the opposite direction And so for me, radio lab was a way of coming back to my family in a way bringing my own lens of music and the humanities to what they were doing I always thought about radio lab as science for poets in a way But the more that I've thought about it, the more I think about it as I mean, it's just like, what you so beautifully said just now is that You go from person who is thinking about the act of truth telling as I line up all the facts And if I just line them up in the right way, I will get to some version of the truth That's open particularly scientific way of seeing the world journalists also sometimes sae I just line up all all the facts. Capital T truth There's this idea in in psychology and psychotherapy called the interest objective which says that like the truth of who I am, the truth of who you are It's not just solely contained in us. tained between us, it's between subjects And I think that Radioab tried to marry the obbjective with the intersubjective, right? And that you can find truth in different ways and both truths are valid onene can be found in the Telomres, but one can be found in the dying words between a father and a son, right? And both truths have value and putting them against each other. creates kind of energy through that juxtaposition And I've always felt that You know, one of the things I dislike about people who do the sort of older style of science stell is that they somehow privilege that kind of truth above all others And as much as I do think the scientific method is one of the greatest gifts humans have ever given each other I also think you have to acknowledge the simple truths in interpersonal spaces and treat those and privilege those as well And that's that's what you do in your reporting, you know, and that's what Why I love it so much, you know So it's very moving to me to hear you sort of tell radioab You specifically tell me about a radio e thing and how it infected you because I can hear that in your work very Very loudly I mean I don't know about the inner subjective But I think a lot about like, sort of like what's Interesting And so like where does complexity lie? Yeah. And And so like, obviously the human brain is you know, the most complicated thing in the universe outside of all the other human brains. unless and until you consider the relationship between two of them Mm. And like that's really sort of like You can't do anything with it. You can't You can't put that in the FMRI That's interesting Be be cool though there were three FMRIs, one for each brain and one for the space between the brains Yeah, I mean, it's all happening inside of the head, but there is this thing and like it's going on all the time And also we do it, you know, there's the space between you know, like this conversation and the people who will listen to it and there's the, you know, the many to many brains of the internet doing that, which is all brand new and terrifying I wish I could talk to you for another hour But I did want to talk about how you feel like What's your relationship creatively to the new tools. of what we call now artificial intelligence. How are you feeling about this as like a force in creation. I love asking Claud to format my transcripts Yeah I was like, please color these names blue and this name's green and Claude does it perfectly.. They're undeniably useful in some way But I also feel a little resentful You know I mean you have a situation where you have people who have created things over time. They've written books They've written articles. based on hard won knowledge. And then you have these tech companies that come along and just vacuum it all up into some model they used to train this product that they now own It feels to me like one of the biggest transfers of values in human history taking all that value and putting it into somebody else's bank account That's annoying to me. I think you should all be upset about that You know? Annoying is an interesting word for the set of sentences you said before annoying. I mean, that's genuinely enraging. Okay. That's maybe better than annoying. So like people who are really pissed off at AI, I'm like, yeah, yeah, you should be Yeah It bugs it bugs me to know Anne when neologist will say Well, the train's already left the station. Yeah and you're like, yeah, probably probably right But I mean, like do we need help making fake videos? Like is that a thing? L the fact that that was one of the first use cases? make a fake video even better Why? And then make a yet better fake video? Like, what problem are you solving? No one wanted that I find myself very irritated and annoyed by AI. Well, at the same time, you know, I think what it's doing in science is really interesting Yeah,, yeah, that oftentimes is like different kinds of AI, but not always. Yeah So yeah, I mean, different kinds of AI I think is actually the way that we should be thinking about it because Unfortunately, they're all referencing these general tools, but There are different levels of the technology, some of which I think are actually good for people But this whole thing about how, you know We're gonna to capture the cone of light of all economic activity. All this bullshit. You're like, Nobody who's ever said anything like that has led us into good places Yeah, that's just like we all know where that story is going. There's also the sense that I'm getting right now where people are like, this time the fountain of youth is real. We always used to think it was a myth. and I'm like, no, they didn't think it was a myth. We've always thought it was real. And then we did all end up dying Y. Yes. I think that we should do longevity research obviously happappy having people live longer, happier, healthier lives. No, but yes, I do be right. I do think that they will yet die And that is it is interesting to see a bunch of people whose only problem left is that they will die Tking that is the only problem left to solve And like it's your only problem, but we've got other ones. Yeah. we should probably Anytime a new AI thing comes out, I always think, how will this help the housing crisis I love I love that you think that. And the answer is not at all. The answer is not at all. Like in no ways does this help the housing crisis? In fact, it probably makes it worse. Yeah. As like a tech optimist, me, I'm talking about and a person who is joyful about the progress of humanity. I do have this very similar to your split. where I am very frustrated by the systems through which these tools were created att the same time, like, oh my God, I cannot believe that things that can do this exist. Yeah And then at the same time Oh my God, I've seen the way that one commommunications revolution has affected my world. And you're going to lay another one on top of it. Yeah Y ex me It freaks me out And I just don't think we are of consuming the amount of information that we're being asked to consume right now I just don't think I don't think Caring about the number of things that we're being asked to care about. Yeah. I just don't think it's like being confronted with the number of horrors that we're being confronted with. Yeah, I mean, it's just like it puts us in a psychologically hard space. Yeah. So where are you these days with humans I told you I was going to ask you with humans, like, how do I feel about the humans? Yeah You know, listen If one simply just cons consumes the news, you wake up each morning and by like nine thirty AM, you have a pretty dark view of the humans Yeah However, I also teach at Vanderbil University And the young people, they show up to the class And they're very scary. They have a sort of a disaffected look on their face and they They sort of confirm your view of humans for a millisecond. and then they speak Every time I have a chance to speak to these students They reaffirm so much about people. like they're really smart They're looking for meaning They're genuinely like wanting to have impact on the world, they just don't know how They have this terrible burden that we've left them with, but they seem up for it. They seem up to the task So any interactions I have with young people restore my faith in humans And each day it ends kindind of in a dra The jury still out on the humans The j of my heart that is I'm want to read you something that you once said about radiab you and Robert, One of us will be sort of the skeptic at one point. in the other will be the kind of person who wants to believe in magic, but then will'll flip. because I really do fundamentally believe that I am both a skeptic And also I am a believer in magic. and I think that radioab is both of those things together Yeah, I would stand by that. What's the magic? the sort of being a mysterion, you know, like being you are being a mysterion? Yeah, you know, just as somebody who's okay, it's like this. It's like probleblem with science Smoppy problem is disenchants the world by explaining it. But I have this print in my office that my brother in law gave to us I can't tell you the quote, but it's an art and it is saying they're like we've discovered a new animal We have named it this and the nameless spirit has been displaced Hm Yeah I mean, that's what I'm talking about. There is a displacement that happens when you know or think you know a thing. And I do think we have to reenchant ourselves to the world. Believing in magic for me is about becoming reenchanted Yeah whichich can happen at any moment in the day. You look up and you look at the sun and you're like Like you and I before this interview, we were talking about indoor plumbing, right Like if you just think about it The fact that we have all of these pipes that reach up into our buildings and whisk away our shit. miracle that is, excuse my language. There's so many ways you didn't notice you said shit, but It's okay Okay So We can use AI to fix that. Yeah yeah. But yeah, for me, that's what I want from mystery. It isn't so much to have a cheap sense of wonder. It's to just be reinvigorated to the magic of the fact that we exist at all You know I think that this is very important. I think that science loses people because of this. I think so. I think that people want They want agency too. They want to feel like things make some sense And I feel like I have that I feel like things do make sense and I feel like I have Not agencyough I remember going through cancer treatment and like really understanding all these people who are like I want it to be about diet. Like I want it to be about something I can control. Yeah. It wass like, absolutely. And then the oncologists won't give them that. They're like, Hey you can kind of eat anything at this point Yeah the cancer already happened A lot of people don't want to hear. they want to hear like what I do right now will affect the outcome of this terror that is occurring inside of me. I totally get I don't feel like I necessarily have that level of agency. I think that we were all at the whims of know the randomness of the world. to a large extent do feel like I have the wonder without the magic. Well one hundred percent I feel that as a consumer of your work. Yeah and I just want to I want to give that to people because it really feels great. It feels great and it It's like it's like what we choose to notice You know? I mean, that's part of the sort of toxic thing that we're in with with our current mediaas is that the incentive structures are such that they drive us to notice things that are at the extremes, that we're all alive because of the heat and the illumination of a nearby star Good what? Like, why isn't that front page news every day? Do you know what I mean? You So there's we can notice, I mean, it's a wonderful book, forget who wrote it It's written by a Buddhist monkey talks about. Maybe he was dressed in or something that was bombing. he walks out of a bombed house that he was lucky to still be alive. and he sees this little flower sprouting out of the earth and like feeling that that gives him is so profound, this idea that that is still here And that feels to me like a choice we can all make. Certainly as we fight to try and make the world better and all the other things which we can turn away from, we also have to notice all the other things. And I think so I think wonder is actually politically crucial to a healthy body You know I really do I w want to ask him a last question which is what's something that you have learned from this work that you wish everyone knew I It's funny, my answer I think maybe people do know this now. I didn't know it I wish I had known that I didn't need to know things. You know, I have always been paralyzed by the feeling that I didn't know enough that I wasn't belong And what I know now is that those questions are irrelevant that it's really just about committing to the search. Ands that's all that matters. you commit to the search towards whatever it is You don't need anything more than that. And I wish I had known that really I as like a now middle aged person I am fascinated by how much I know this year that I didn't know last year I'm just like, oh, you just keep learning stuff the whole time. Yeah I can sometimes be like, boy, I feel like I could tell you everything I know. in an afternoon And that's really not true takes a long time It takes a long time build the scaffolding and have all this stuff And like I also still feel totally ignorant so much Yeah, it's funny. It doesn't feel like a long time, but it actually has it is a long time. One Over long, yeah a long span Man, thank you so much. Yeah, this is such a honor. especially for you to say nice things about me. It's all I'm just speaking the truth, my man. you know I really think you're making kind of media I wish more people could If you could somehow become a cult I'll be better off. I've resisted the cult This is specifically not something I'm interested in. I know what you mean I think that there is a There's a way of seeing the world that I think is more Con now that I ascribe to Yeah that is really nice And Dolly Parton is our leader. She's our cult leader Along with the rest of the globe.. We're all part of the cult If you haven't heard Jen's work, and you should, listen to Dolly Partonss America, and Fellauti, Fear No Man, wherever you listen to podcasts This fellow Kouti series won the Peabody Award last year, one of the highest honors in journalism. Also the radio lab episode The Baby Cry is called Mortality from two thousand seven. You can check it out Thanks to all the humans who helped make this episode. Morgan Levy is the show's supervising producer, and Greg Rippen is our engineer. Pyton Mitchell manages our social media, Andrew Wuang composed the music and James Barnard designed the artwork. You can and should, follow us wherever you listen to podcasts Let's do it over time. You