Adulthood and Continuous Growth

This is humans Human human humanananan human Human human I'm Hank Gre My guest today is John Green, which on the one hand is maybe a strange way to begin this podcast because John Greene is my brother. We have already spent a pretty significant portion of our lives talking to each other in public. We've made videos together for almost twenty years. We have a podcast together. We have built a lot of my life and a lot of his life in conversation with each other But also like that is exactly why I wanted to start here because this show is called And before I started going around asking other people who they are and what they think people are for, and why it's so weird to be the thing that we are and how they make sense of being a person, I wanted to start with someone who has shaped how I think about all of that for literally my whole life And also I wanted to do this because we don't actually talk like this very often We talk publicly a lot, but usually in ways where each of us brings our own thing. We answer questions, we tell stories, we do bits, we update each other on our lives. Someone once wrote about us that our YouTube channel's Llog Brothers was less a conversation than an extended form of parallel play So This is a little different. This is me trying kind of for the first time in quite this way to sit down with John. and really get into it. So for the first episode of Humans, I thought I should start with one of the people who helped make me into a human John Green is a novelist and essayist and YouTuber and podcaster, and to me, one of the most thoughtful people I know about topics like hope, attention, suffering, ambition, art and what we owe each other He's also one of the people whose opinion matters to me the most. So Part of this is me interviewing John Green, but part of it is also me asking my brother to help me understand What exactly I'm trying to do here Jhn Green Welcome What do you think I'm trying to do here Well, first off, you don't have my blessing to start this podcast. So I want to be clear about that You don't have my blessing to start any new projects, especially open ended ones You have my blessing a little bit to start like an eight episode arc of something, but you do not have my blessing to start an open ended podcast. So I disapprove of this project entirely, but I'm happy to be here. And so, you know that I shouldn't be doing this? Why do you think I am? Well, first off, you are relentless. You have a huge amount of your identity wrapped up in the work that you do and you want to make stuff that's useful to people in as large a way as possible, as much as possible, as long as possible I think part of it is that you're genuinely curious about what people think about humanity. And I think part of it is that you've been trying to make the case for decades that humanity is worth it, that maybe we aren't good news now, but we might be good news might be good news to each other, might be good news to the world It used to be that lots of people really believe that, but now it's a little bit countercultural to be in favor of humanity. This is the thing that we say to each other and also in public now. Like we should imagine things complexly. And then I remember being in your house being like, this will be the theme of two thousand nine Vlog Brothers. We're gonna have the theme be We should imagine each other complexly. It turns out that that's the theme for the whole time But another one is broadly in favor of humans. This is basically the title of a book that we will never write together. What's buried in broadly in favor of humans is the fact that That is a little bit counter cultural It seems like a weird thing to have happened. M People tend to be in favor of themselves. You know, we're the hero of our own story But a lot of folks have lost touch with like humans being the hero of the Earth story. definitely don't feel that way anymore. Right. We seem like the villains of the Earth story Yeah, I mean, we certainly treat ourselves as the main character of the Eth story We're definitely peripheral character. We're either that hero or the villain. which I think actually overstates our role a little bit. Like after we're gone, Earth is gonna be fine Earth is going to retain complex life and Complex life will continue to evolve, but there will be nobody left to listen to Billy Holiday records. And that's a bummer for me Not just that there will be nobody left to listen to Billy Holiday Records. There will be nobody left who knows what's keeping the stars apart and nobody left to knows that we're in a vast universe of hundreds of billions of galaxies, know, all of that will be lost. And That's tragic and what we have been able to accomplish together over the last three hundred thousand years is really worth celebrating to me and I get a little frustrated with the relentless doomerism that claims that humanity is merely bad news. Of course, we're catastrophic. We've always been catastrophic, right? I mean, we've been hunting large complex species to extinction for tens of thousands of years But we're not merely a catastrophe And I will say trees did it too You know, trees showed up on Eth. Yeah, huge mass extinction. And nobody ever blames them And I get that we actually do know what we're doing and that makes it worse. That makes it worse. But it also makes it better. It also makes it better in the sense that we can actually make choices away from mass extinction, but ye our unwillingness to make those choices, I understand why people get bummed out about that and why people are concerned about that. I'm also concerned about it. Like I said, we're a catastrophe. I just don't think that No review of humanity that fits on a bumper sticker is accurate. And so you can't say that we're great and you can't say that we're terrible because we're way more complicated than that And I think the complicated is like, on its own, almost a thing to celebrate, you know, this emergence of complexity It's very strange. And unusual, and it may have required four straight billion years of relative stability on this planet and relative stability from the sun to get to it. Which is a long time That some sizable portion of the life of the whole universe You're not a historian But you know a whole lot more about history than me, which is one reason I think we're a good team Is this unusual? that people will be so down on themselves, has this been going on for a long time? I know that we're always thinking about the apocalypse Yeah, but we're also always thinking about fallen man. Yeah, you know, that we were in a state of glory and then we fell to a state of sin and debasement. So there is nothing new about that back to our very earliest stories that we have about ourselves. you know, there was this moment before the flood, before the expulsion from Eden, before whatever where humanity was doing okay and then humanity had to rebuild itself in a post edenic state. Yeah. You see those stories not just in Christian history, which I'm most familiar with, but also in Hindu eschatology, which portrays life as existing in these sort of billions of years cycles of birth growth and then collapse. You see it in Chinese history where you know, the dynasties would rise and then the mandate of heaven would abandon them and they would fall and there would be a state of collapse. I do think that we're in a moment of secular imagining of these things that I don't have a great understanding of. I don't really know why we've come to be so opposed to humanity or think that humanity is such news. I think some of it is is the climate. Some of it is that we've become so powerful that we are literally reshaping the climate. reshaping biodiversity on a really profound scale reshaping fundamental nature of what it means to live in a world like that that's some pretty powerful stuff that we couldn't do two hundred years ago We've had the power to extinguish humanity from the planet for like, what, eighty years out of three hundred thousand. And like at the same time, we've also had the knowledge that we are in one of many galaxies for like a hundred. Right. There's also this like giant upheaval that is secular of our understanding of our place in the universe, which is like if we're not God's chosen ones and we're just a bunch of Animals. doing a crazy thing on the planet. We don't even imagine ourselves as animals. We are this other thing that has emerged and is just causing a whole lot of problems. Maybe not the greatest thing. So first, do you think that that idea that we are in a fallen state is just like really sticky That story is in some way, not attractive to people It attracts the attention of people. Well, I do think it's sticky hank. I also think it's true You think we're in a fallen state? A little bit. little bit bit little bit of a fallen state. You don't think that our circles of empathy are wider than they once were Our circles of empathy are wider than they once were, but they're lower than they were when I mean, I guess what I'd say is our circles of empathy are definitely wider than they used to be which is good They are not nearly wide enough. And yeah, no, I agree That doesn't mean that there was a time when they were wide enough, but you can imagine a time when they were wide enough That's the sense in which I think we're falling. Maybe fallen is the wrong word because that implies that we were once atop the mountain Instead, we are still very, very far from the top of the mountain So this gets to the other thing that I think about this, which is that it's a matter of the field of information And so like if you are presented with like a small amount of information, you're going to pay attention to the worst stuff, and you're going to have some left overver for the good stuff But if you're presented with every piece of information in the world, you're going to pay attention to the worst stuff. And after you have saturated your ability to pay attention to anything, you will still have a lot of worst stuff to get to that you will not get to before you end up getting to the good stuff. It feels a little bit like that. Yeah. and that's the way in which I do kind of feel fallen where I'm like We have so much access to the terrors and yet we can do nothing about it Well, and this feels very bad Yeah, I mean Part of what I think is really challenging about living in our moment is that information landscape being so relentlessly negative because it's true. There is that much bad stuff happening. That's not an illusion created by the internet. It's just that to your point, there is no way to emphasize the good stuff that's happening. So the twenty first century I mean, people are tired of me saying this, but I think it's really important to emphasize has been By far the best century in human history We reduced the number of kids who die under the age of five from over twelve million to fewer than five million. in twenty five years. It's the fastest reduction in child mortality in human history We've increased life expectancy. pooverty has decreased not nearly as much as it should have, and it should be emphasized that of the five million kids who are going to die this year, almost all of them are going to die needlessly They're going to die because of failures of human built systems, not because we lack the technology to save them. Yeah. And so I think that's part of what we get so frustrated by. It used to be that half of all kids died before the age of five and there was nothing we could do about it. and That was frustrating in a way, but also it was not within our power Now it is within our power and we don't use that power, which is pretty horrifying and a pretty damning indictment of humanity That's where there's a tension because We have to hold these difficult competing ideas in our mind at the same time that we've made an unprecedented amount of progress and that we have failed on such an epic scale. They're both true. Do you think that being in favor of humans is the same thing as optimism Well, I mean, the thing that you and I both agree on in the broadest sense And we don't, you know, we have different world views when it comes to religion and stuff, but like the thing we agree upon that is borderline metaphysical is that Something is better than nothing likeike There's something fundamental about a raccoon that is better than an amoeba, and there is something about an amoeba that is better than a rock Yes. And there is something about a rock that is better than a void That's not really true, right? L there's nothing objectively better about a rock than a void We have decided that as our ground of being as a principle of our fundamental tenants or whatever Yeah, like I cannot accept that nothing has equal weight to something Now That's not to say that it's a narrow pyramid with amoebas at the bottom and humans at the top. Yeah I don't think it's nearly that simple. I think it's much more like a web This is an interesting answer to the question optimism. I'm getting there. I'm so excited to see how you get I'm getting there. So I'm optimistic in the sense that we can create complexity And I think complexity is good That's an optimistic part of me. Interesting. Like being in favor of humans is optimistic purely from the perspective of I'm in favor of this thing that is good and we are creating this good by virtue of existing. We are creating some good by virtue of existing and following our curiosity and answering to those kind of higher selves that would have us be focused on mutual generosity and understanding I'm not optimistic in the sense that Like I don't think that we're very I don't think we're in the first half of this game You know, like So you think we've been around for two hundred thousand years and that we won't have another two hundred thousand? I think it's three hundred thousand and I think it's going to be rough If I were a betting man, I wouldn't I wouldn't bet on the over for three hundred thousand years. And I'm not optimistic in the sense that I don't think that I guess I try not to be poolllyanish about it. I try not to think like, oh, humanity is like such good news and such a wonderful development. I think it's a really interesting development. I think it's the most interesting thing that ever happened in the history of life on the planet by a wide margin But I don't think it's Good news or bad news, really. I just think it's news I could see us making it. I know you could But you're a very optimistic person I could see us making it too, by the way. I'm not saying that it's impossible. If someone's listening to this in three hundred one thousand years and they're like, oh, that guy was You know, thought we had no chance. No, I think you have a chance. I just think the odds are kind of a little bit stacked against you I mean, the thing that stacks the odds against so much to me is the rate at which our society change. It's just It's just crazy. You know, I was just telling you the other day that they are more chickens than there have ever been birds. Right. So right now there are more chickens on Eth than at any point before Humans, there were birds on Eth Andike there're way more verterates on Earth now than there have ever been, but only because of chickens And That's really weird That's a strange circumstance to find ourselves in. That actually may not be true because of the oceans on land We're just very impactful. You know, like the thing that we add up into is really weird. and so I get being like, this is super up in the air. I feel super up in the air about it Yeah, I think we're too powerful Yeah, having experienced the internet from its birth, I feel very uncomfortable thinking I know how something's going to go Right I mean, when we were kids, we really thought that the internet was going to destroy fascism and that free and open access to information would lead to a global response where people had to say in their own governance and yada, yada, yada and like All of that was so naive. That optimism was naive I think something we miss sometimes is that Mre pessimism is also often naive. Of course. It's just naive in a different way Do you feeleel bad about having been a part of the internet Yeah Yeah, I regret my role in I mean, it's a small role. The internet would have happened anyway, Hank. It's not like I was a critical contributor to it. I'm not Tim Berners Lee ine Yeah, I feel bad about it. I do Do you feel like you did a good job No, not particularly. I feel like I've participated in a lot of evil systems and when you participate and benefit from a lot of evil systems, it's hard to say that you did a good job. I do think that we have tried we really have tried. I don't know the extent to which we've succeeded, but I think we've both tried really hard to participate in the internet in a way that's aligned with our values I just don't know that you can participate in an attention based advertising funded internet in a way that's Morally clean I always feel I don't know Feel free to push back on that if you disagree In a way, I feel like it's like asking how do you feel about participating in America where it's just like right It's just where I live You know, almost don't feel like I had a choice I'd have many times in I felt more a citizen of the internet than of any particular place That's a privilege though Of course You know, it's a privilege to be able to be a citizen of the internet and be able to escape placel based Yeah experience or control So I want to talk a little bit about John Green you feel like you've got some tensions in you. One of them being that you definitely wanted to be successful and famous and then you were And then you didn't anymore. Yeah. Is that an accurate read? That's pretty accurate. What was it about the first part? Why was that happening I think I wanted to be successful and famous. I mean, I wanted financial security. That was part of it But I think if I really wanted financial security, I would have gone into finance, not writing young adult novels. So there was something else happening. I mean Motivation is very complex. I wanted outside affirmation. I wanted people to I think I was cool. I wanted people to like me. I wanted strangers to like me. I don't know why I've always wanted that, but I always have some of it probably goes back to childhood and not feeling liked or feeling popular and being bullied and stuff like that byy it I also wanted to be successful because pretty ambitious person and I wanted to makeake it to the top, whatever that was. I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about why I wanted what I wanted because I was so busy wanting it And then you get it and you start to think, well, why exactly did I want that? What about that that I think was going to be fun or attractive There are aspects to fame that are very intoxicating But like a lot of intoxicants, it's a mixed bag What's the best part I don't know, like, um, Meeting cool people. Like I remember at the Fault Nar Stars movie preremiere, the kid who won the National Spelling Bee was there. That was pretty cool. Like, man, you've got a whole different set of talents than I have. How does that happen? I have no idea The Jenner sisters were also there. I just didn't feel as excited about that. Nothing against them. they seem like nice kids I don't actually know enough about them to have an opinion one way or the other to be honest. John has been taught by the internet to hedge. Yeah. Exactly. The moment I came down in favor, I realized that actually I have to hedge, like who knows what they've done? I don't know I feel like we have to head off in that direction suddenly now. You've also been treated by the internet in ways As far as the bad parts of fame I think that there was a time when you could kind of be Judy Bloom and that was just great. and nobody knew much about Judy Bloom except what the little paragraph at the back of the book said Right That became very much not the case. and you were like a pioneer in that Yeah, I was of the first generation of authors who you know more about than what's on the back of the book, for sure When I was a kid, I wanted to know Jie Salinger and Walter Dean Myers much better than I knew them much better than I could know them And I thought it would be so cool to get a letter from them or have some kind of interaction with them I eventually did have an interaction with Walter Dean Myeers, we sat next to each other on a plane, but by then I was in my thirties. Just like by chance? Yeah, by chance, we were seated in row like twenty seven together and he was like six six, so it was a real challenge for him He was editing this beautiful book about Toussant Louvature And I was like, I'm pretty sure that's Walter Dean Myers, not least because he's editing a book whichich is not that common of a hobby So you figured it out after you sat down Yeah, yeah, I figured it out. and then eventually like three hours into the flight, I was finally like, I'm a huge fan. And he was very nice, whichich is probably fine for Walter Dean Myers. Yeah and a thirty year old fan Oh yeah, I think it was fine. Listen, it's never ideal when somebody sitting next to you on an airplane tells you they're a huge fan. I think probablyrobably Walter Dean Myers would have rather had just the silent airplane flight to edit his book, but you know, it could be worse, it could be worse. Was that cool I wanted to know more about those people. I ask you a question. Was that cool Was what cool Waldter D Myers. Oh yeah, it was totally cool. And like it was cool in part because I was also an author and he knew who I was writing like, you know so That's one way in which success is really nice. you know, peopleople tend to be nice to you Not always, but they tend to be, at least in real life. onn the internet, it's maybe a more complicated story. Yeah. But I think that I really wanted to offer a more full picture. partly because I wanted to spad the idea that you, people who write books are normal people, just like you who just happened to be able to do this job they love but also because I just remembered how much it would mean to me to be able to know something about writers. Now it turns out that's a lot more complex than I thought because Sometimes you wn't think about writers and it's a real bummer. you know, Sometimes writers are super disappointing in real life. In fact So there's this writer I love, Collson Whitehead. If any American writer should get the Nobel Prize, I think it's Collson Whitehead. I just love his book so much I remember like he got on Twitter. at some point And it wasn't anything offensive. It wasn't like he was being problematic. He was just like talking about a sandwich that he liked or something. And I was like, Yeah. Oh, it's devastating to know that geniuses like sandwiches. Yeah, boring sandwiches. I don't want to know that or are like mad about Delta.. Yeah, this is the worst when you see somebody who's like really amazing being mad about customer support in an airline and I'm like Anybody else Yes. But like I've got an idea of you in my head that's very good and you don't want to ruin it. And you're ruining it just by being a human. You kind of ruin it a little bit. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of what I was up against when I had really negative experiences on the internet, which I still have to some extent, but I used to have more ten years ago was worse than it is now and To some extent, I was up against that thing where people were like, I don't understand why you have to be such a person It's really ruining the reading experience. And I get that. I get that Like a lot of things that I thought were going to be narrowly good news, it turns out to be a little more complex. Yes Another contradiction of John Greene I hear you talk a lot about in favorable ways, like things lacking sentimentality. Like you wanted to write an unsentimental cancer book. Yeah. You talk about Amy Cross Rosenthal's unsentimental last piece. Yeah, which I think is titled You may want to marry my husband Right. She knew she was dying and she was talking about how It was sort of a personal ad for her husband. It was very sweet and moving and very amy Very humy You're also very earnest. Yeah. and these two words sound like the same thing sentimental and earnest. I know that they're not But that does seem like a contradiction. Like you're one of the most earnest people I know, but at the same time You are constantly like striving for a lack of sentimentality Y. Achingly, achingly earnest. Fingingly earnest. Sounds like someone's called you that. So annoyingly earnest. It annoys me. to get out in front of it. Like I also find it exhausting What does that word even mean to you? It means like Sincere, serious Unronic, mostly it means unironic And I want to be that in my work. I want to be that in my life. I don't want to use the armor of irony or cynicism to protect me against real feeling. I want to feel all that there is to feel while I'm here. I think that other approaches to life are a waste of time B don't want to be sappy about it It is a very fine line, Hank. You're right. and I'm not always on the right side of the line Well, but you know about it, you know about that line. I know about the l. It's bright to you. I'm aware of the line. In most of the books version of the fault in our stars, I found it. I tried to anyway. Yeah But I'm not always on the right side of it. Like if you're going to err on the side of being cheesy or on the side of being cold and distant, I'm always going to err on the side of being cheesy. And so I'm aware of the line, but I don't always walk it perfectly But I think that whole distant, merely intellectual approach to life and art leaves a lot on the table It leaves a lot of human feeling on the table that's really at the center of what it is to be a person this is why I want to ask this question because like You don't have anything against being earnest. I'm there with you and I've been brought there by you is sentimentality, what is on the other side of that line Is it just like people's perception of the earnestness or is it actually a different thing? I think it's a different thing. To me, sentimentality is a little bit of a lie. It's the kind of lie that we tell ourselves in retrospect looking back at the past It's the lie that everything happens for a reason. It's the lie that you know, those sort of cursive encouragements that are post it at IkeA, tellell us That to me is sentimentality. We're creating these cute little nice things to tell ourselves about the horrors that aren't really real. Right. L I don't want to trap on anyone's worldview, but I think it's very, very, very difficult to argue that everything happens for a reason in a world of such profound human built injustice. Do you think that that is I mean, I know that we have different world views here. Has that changed how you feel about releligion about God No, not really, because I've never believed in a God who intercedes some of the time, but not all of the time. I've never believed in a best of all possible world sort of theology I've always believed in a God who acts on humanity primarily through humanity. Always is a long time That feels like a more complex theology than probably was taught to a thirteen year old. But I didn't really grow up believing in God. So like I was able to conceptualize God when I was in my twenties or nineteen, you know? L I was able to form a theology without a ton of baggage. I feel really bad actually for people who grow up So religiously traumatized by the fear of hell or by these religious tenantets that would tell people that they're not full people or that they're somehow removed from God's love for being themselves You see that a lot with people in the LGBTQ community, you see it a lot with people who grow up being told that their desires or their way of being in the world is itself somehow terrible or worse than other ways of being in the world I didn't grow up with any of that We grew up going to church occasionally, but like it wasn't a big deal. And so by the time I came to Christianity and And I really came to Christianity because I'd grown up a Christian Yeah I think if I'd grown up a Muslim or a Buddhist or a Hindu, I would have gone to those faiths, but I went to Christianity and you know, was able to find enough there for me for it to feel productive. This is fascinating had always assumed that it was kind of a continuousness, even though of course like our parents and you go to different churches. Yeah, you know, you're episcopalian there I mean, nominally, M and dad don't go to church, so I assumed that you had sort of just like carried it through. You got confirmed and just like I did, and you were just paying more attention in church in Sunday school than I was No, I don't think so I dont think it's interesting. I didn't really read the gospels until I was in college. Oh. true of most middle school students, they're not out there reading the gospels. But I don't know. Maybe. as far as I can tell, nobody's out there reading them lot of people who say a whole lot about Jesus. not doing a lot of gospel reading But is one of the reasons you don't talk that much about your faith that you are sensitive to people who have been traumatized Yeah, for sure. And I don't labor under the delusion that it's right either. And so I don't have the same I mean, there's a lot of talk about evangelism. It really feels like that's one of the things about faith is that you're supposed to believe it's right. That's what faith, that's what that word me. You're supposed to believe that it's a right. Okay. I'm not sure you're supposed to believe that it's the right by There's a lot of emphasis on evangelism in Christian history and in Christian literature On the idea that like you should go out and preach the good news that you can be forgiven and yada, yada yada of radical hope that hope is available to all people at all times, even unto death and all that stuff and I mean, first off, like as a Midwesterner, I'm congenitally incapable of that kind of evangelism. But secondly, I just don't feel like it's my way or my place. I don't feel like it's my place to say to somebody who's hugely religiously traumatized, Ohh, but like come back If you just were at this church instead of that church, it would have been better It's interesting because sometimes I talk about how I like I'm a little bit jealous of religious people, that like having this built in community, having a worldview that you can sort of fall back on, having you know, some amount of comfort about the everlasting nature of the soul you've tempered me in those moments and you've been like, now Not all puppy dogs over here It's not all puppy dogs. and a lot of times to create an in group, people create an out group And that's very dangerous, especially when it comes to something that's as important as religion where you're talking about fundamental truths if you're talking about a group of people who can't access fundamental truths or who are removed from the deepest love that is available to us as humans, like That can be very, very dangerous. I remember once I went to a Pentecostal church, a pew jumping church, as the pastor described it It was called Church O the Woods. Did you jump any pews? I did not jump any pews, but I, you know, I felt it. I felt it. I felt my hands going up. I felt the magic The thing happened So I was like, what the hell is happening? Like the thing is happening, I am moved, I am transcended, I am, you know, not jumping over pews, but I'm about to. Nice And then during the prayers The pastor started railing against the Pentecostal church across the street And how they were doomed and fallen And I was like, Oh man, that's a bummer. Did you need that part? You just transcended me, man. We don't need to go here. Can't we just sing and dance? Do we have to go there It was like, prray for our fallen brethren across the way Church of the Woods Man, Church of the Wood sounds amazing. It sounds like you actually just go into the woods and Trcend. Pretty good church, man. It was pretty good church I was looking at a bunch of interviews with John Green because I was going to do this. And also I'm trying to learn from good interviewers and how they do their thing because it's not particularly easy. You kind of use your brain in a lot of ways And you did a wild card with Rachel Martin on NPR And I was scrolling through the comments because that's what I do. I wonder how you feel about this number one comment first comment. with a thousand likes I think John Greene is my pastor. Yeah, I mean, that's nice to hear. I You gonna get people to jump some pews? I don't think I'm gonna get anybody to jump over pews. And indeed, I don't want to because that stuff is so powerful that it's tricky I don't want to have that kind of power over people I don't think anybody should want to have that kind of power over people. I'm suspicious of people who want that I think I used to want that when I was in my twenties, but that's a byproduct of being in your twenties. You're not allowed to want it in your forties. You wanted to be a pastor that would get people to jump up abuse. Well, I wanted to be a pastor who would get people pretty enthusiastic I was never going to be a pew jumping church guy. but you wanted to you wanted to have that that power. Yeah. I mean, I literally wanted to be a pastor and I wanted to be a pastor partly because I wanted to, you know to flock. Yeah, make people feel those big feelings. And help people through the biggest most difficult parts of their lives. Sure. But I'm trying to get to the thing that you were saying just then, which is like the difference about how you were feeling about it in your twenties like wanted to be like the the leader of this group. right in a really powerful way. Yeah, the leader of the group, for sure. Yeah. I don't think that's universal among pastors, by the way. I think lots of pastors go into it for primarily service related reasons. I'm not sure that I was one of those people. Yeah, and you probably would have ended up there. I would have gotten there I would have gotten there But it would have been a journey How do I feel about Somebody saying that and lots of people up voting it, I feel grateful But I also feel like Hans need better third places than the internet. Yeah. And they deserve better third places than the internet. and so I worry about them if I'm their pastor. because Uh, I worry that I'm place where I do that work is not suited to that work didid it anyway Yeah, and look, I've always been conscious of that, Hank. L even in two thousand seven when we had like four hundred YouTube subscribers, I was very conscious of the fact that people were taking us seriously and as a result, we needed to The privilege of being in their lives seriously As a writer, you know, I try to remember that Young people are giving me usually young people are giving me a seat at the table in their lives when they're forming their values, which is very serious business. And I should try not to mess that up if I can both in the way that I write and in the way that I public or live in public So what are the weird things about you and I is that we've been making Vlog Brers videos for twenty years There's not a lot of people who are still at it And of the ones who are, they don't have a steady sized audience. right the way that we have. We basically have the same number of viewers now that we had in like twenty twelve. And we've had peaks and we've had valleys, but like we've never drops down to a place where it feels like it's really worth doing it anymore I can't really figure out why I think that some of it is the quality of the audience that we got from the beginning it was just like the kinds of folks that we were reaching Some of it is that we are trying. like in those valleys we're like, okay, this is starting to look worrying. what should we do about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. we start to do a little click bait We're not above it. Certainly not But I wonder to what extent like and I've never thought about this before, but like, You're Both desire and A little bit of training and having A flock partart of that Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it might be a part of it. I think that the biggest thing is that We have changed with our audience, We've grown with our audience And there's a lot of luck involved in that At the end of his life, Mark Twain was asked, what's the difference between you and Brett Hart, this other kind of comedian from the West who is a beloved comic writer who never really ascended into the you know, the literary pantheon the way Twain did And Twain said and he I was like, what's the difference between you and Brett Hart and these other guys And Twain said, they were kidding, I was preaching And I do think on some level, We've been preaching the whole time Now You know, it's not religious preaching But it's preaching it's trying to talk to each other and an audience about the big stuff at the center of human life, whether that's grief or love or astronomy I'd say you talk a fair amount about religion, but I actually hear you talk less about Twain. And I know that he was also a subject of study for you in school Yeah That's true. It's true. I double majored in English and religion. You're asking me a lot of questions about religion. You're not asking me any questions about planain Well, I don't I feel like people nobody ever does. Rachel Martin didn't ask me any questions about Mark Twain So I have a couple of Mark Twain questions that I suddenly want to ask you that are not written down. One of them is Mark Twain did this thing where he wrote a thing and he said, I want you to release this like a hundred years after my death, is that And then it came out and it was like Mark Twain's final thing is out, everybody. and it didn't make much of a splash. It was hugely disappointing Oh, was it just not very good? It's not very good and it's settling a lot of hundred year old scores that nobody cares about. you know? ye. I mean, that's interesting When you like research any scientist who's famous for some science thing, And you look at what they spent their days doing, it's almost always politics. They're like mad that they're not like updating the bridge in town Yeah, yeah, yeah deal. And then eventually they do and everybody benefits from that bridge, but nobody thinks about the bridge. Nobody thinks about which presidential candidates Mark Twain supported, right? But at the time, his politics were very important and he was in an interesting position as sort of you know I think more recent scholarship is sort of pood this a little bit, but When I was in college, he was very much seen as two people There was Sam Clemens, the guy from, you know, Missouri who became a riverboat pilot who was very critical of institutions. And there was Mark Twain who loved all that stuff, got invited to the fancy parties, would spend three months in Paris at the finest of hotels and all that stuff. and I have often thought about Twain because some of those same contradictions exist in my own life where you know I am highly critical of certain things and also a participant in them. There was also like a lot of and this is often the case with influential people in their time that a lot of what they spent time on was like the politics of the day We spend time in the politics of the day. I think I do more than you do But we both do I spend a lot of time in my private life on the politics of the day. I don't feel like the interternet is a great place to have those conversations a lot of times. Sometimes it is, sometometimes it's the only place to have them, but I don't feel like These places that are owned by huge corporations contontrolled by five guys. That are controlled by five guys are necessarily the way to have those conversations. Yeah, no. This's a very difficult thing for me. We have this conversation privately a lot I feel as if it is necessary to have them in this place because the internet is very influential in how a lot of powerful people think about like what we will talk about and what we must talk about. Yeah, and I don't think you're wrong about that. It's just that I don't think I can move the needle much actually. It's like dangerous for us to move the needle a little bit where like if we're really sticking our necks out, then we've got a lot of, you know, complexity and crrash course and SciShow and all the stuff that we've built. good store, like we don't want collateral damage shed up on those things. On the one hand, I don't want compleomplex L to suffer crash courseour to suffer because I'm alienating current administration. On the other hand I've seen a lot of bad in history come from that kind of thinking Right. There's also a piece of me that's like, I don't want to ruin myself for certain people like I want to have values, but I don't want to be attacking people who I might otherwise reach, you know That's the other thing is that I don't really know how to change minds on the internet. And so so yeah, it's not a good place for that. If I knew how to change minds, I would be trying to do it all the time, but I feel like actually all I do is make people retrench more in their existing worldviews than challenge them and I really struggle with that. So when I feel like I can challenge someone's worldview, especially when it's not super settled on like an issue like global health or global health equity or tuberculosis or whatever then I really want to push. It's hard for me to just like as you do, like you do a good job usually, not always, but you do a good job in general of participating in the discourse I find that really, really hard Almost every time I participate in the discourse, within thirty seconds or a minute, I desperately want to delete what I just said And then you do And then I do and it feels great Do you think that Mark Twain may have had something to do with our success Like you understanding his life? I'm already uncomfortable with the extent to which I've compared myself to America's greatest writer. I'm not asking for comparison. I'm asking, you understood this guy's life better than ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of Americans. intellectual. He was a humorist, he was a writer. And so you can definitely be a shadow of Mark Twain. But is part of the reason I have such a cool life that you studied Mark Twain in college Probably. That's awesome. Yeah. I think more about Mark Twayain in the context of making stuff online and being sort of public figure as well as a writer than I do about anybody else for sure You gotta make more Mark Twain content John No, I don't You know, hank, this is going to sound radical to you, but there are actually things that you can think and not share It's true, man. You should try it sometimes. It's quite rewarding actually. Okay. What You've brought it up What are things that you don't Oh, there's a lot. I don't share most of my day to day thoughts. I don't share almost anything about my kids. S sure, ye. I feel like that's off limits. Ern' like seven and I was like, oh, he's a person now. Like when he was like Yeah four or like two And stories about Oin were like stories about any four year old or any two year old. At seven, these are stories about Oin Yeah, exactly. And so I don't want to tell those stories. And if like a magazine wants to come and photograph me in my home with my kids, like that's not going happen. Yikes. And then there's stuff from my past I don't share because it feels personal to me, because I donon't want it There's that old line that we share our scars, not our wounds. O You know, we share the stuff that's healed over, not the stuff that's still raw But for me, a lot of the stuff is still wrong Yeah, interestnteresting. You know, you're a great storyteller. I remember like you coming back from school and like For those of you that don't know, John went to boarding school when you were fourteen And I was eleven And so John was not part of my teen years except for during the summers And you could come back from school and you have these stories that would be story shaped and they'd be long and they'd have parts Looking back on it, of course, I'm like, wow, what a pretentious little coat. I'm sure those stories were unbearable. But I was wrapped, you know, sitting on the ottoman with my chin in my hands, you know But you love telling a story. Are there moments where you're like, God, this would be a great story, but I just don't want I don't like the lesson And I don't like the size and shape of my wound here Yeah The cost is quite high. It's something we don't talk about much, but becausecause, you know, now we trade so openly in our traumas and our experiences, we trade them for attention online And I've done that too. And that can be really helpful to people, right? Like me talking about having OCD has been really helpful to a lot of people You know, some people help them feel more comfortable being themselves, help them feel like you can live a rich life and also have a serious mental illness, all that stuff And so I don't want to sound like, oh, this is merely a terrible thing that we do. I think it's a really complex thing that we do. But the incentives online are always to share the terrible things that are happening to you because they get a lot of attention And I don't want to do that a lot of times because I've seen the cost of it, the cost of it being that Once you share something, it isn't yours anymore. And that can be really good, that can be really liberating, that can be really freeing but also you lose control over that story. You lose the ability to deceide when you tell it One thing I've noticed and I write about this in my new book that's coming out this fall, but like one thing I've noticed is that interviewers when They bring up something that they know you don't want to talk about or they know is kind of inappropriate to ask about. They say, you've been very public about the fact that you have OCD. O you've been very public about this, or you've been very public about that And that's their way of saying like I don't have to apologize for asking this inappropriate question that's deeply personal to you because you've been very public about it. Right. But with OCD, like I've only chosen to be public about it in ways that I have total control over making a vlog Bothers video. right. And then I lose complete control because Qote, unquote, I've been public about it Wow I will never be able to not hear that because I hear it. all the time. People use it all the time. N Interesting I should say the name of my book Yeah It's called Hollywood Ending. It comes out september twenty second I guess tell me a little bit about Hollywood ending It's a Hollywood novel. It's about two young people who are Is got a category of novels Yeah you know, a little bit cancer book. it's a surprisingly robust genre . Maybe I shouldn't call it a Hollwood novel, since it's mostly about what happens after the movie is filmed. But it's a book about two young people who are in a movie and the movie' kind of blowing up. The movie' about the last year of Andy Warhol's life. It's called Andy Warhol N never G gets old. and it's starting to blow up. And as a result their lives are blowing up too in ways that are exciting and intoxicating, but also in ways that are really damaging and destabilizing You're writing about young people in fame. I know that. I did that. Yeah. ye. I am writing about people in their twenties and fame. In that sense, it's more of a Hank Greene novel No on your website's frequently asked questions section, which I'm sure you think a lot about. Oh yeah, you know me. I rewrite it weekly It says, is there a reason why the majority of your main characters in your books don't have siblings? And you say, I think of it as a very subtle way of being able to torture my brother Do your new characters in the Hollywood ending have siblings? They do, they do. they both have one sibling The siblings are not very important, I have to say. They serve a purpose. I mean, the truth of why I've never had siblings is that I didn't need them. You know? They didn't serve a purpose. Like Margot has a sister in Paper toowns because she needed a sister Usually if you don't need somebody, you don't include them. Eespecially for me, like I paint on a very small canvas. like I tend to have very small casts of characters and stuff This book has by far the largest cast of characters of anything I've ever written, but it's also my first book for adults, so it feels like that's okay. difference there? Is this mostly a marketing choice or is it actually a writing difference There's a little bit of a writing difference. I mean, you know when I'm writing four and about teenagers, I focus on first. I focus on first love, first time grappling with grief, first time doing this, first time doing that in this story, it's not her first time falling in love She's in her early twenties, but she's pretty wisened and worldly for a twenty two year old. So there is a difference and there's a difference in the writing B. It's also a marketing choice for sure. Like it's ultimately. I mean, the kid the kids I call them kids I shouldn't. they're adults, but like the kids in the story are old enough that It's hard to market it as a Yat book. I mean, earlier in this interview, you referred to us as kids when we were like twenty seven So Yeah. well, I do think that. I think you kind of are a kid until you're about twenty nine Yeah Yeah Oh, well, we're just going to keep pushing that out Right When I'm seventy, I'm sure I'll think of my current self as being a kid So in that Wild card interview, I'm sure that Rachel Martin said that you've been very public about your OCD because you did talk about it. And then you talk about is there anything positive about it? And you're like, no, people say this about my cancerre like what come out of your cancer and I'm like, you know, there are things and they're like, Is it in a way good that it happened to? And I'm like, No, no. no, No, I'm so much worse now. Yeah No, my chance of dying has literally gone up. so thank you for asking. Yeah, no, it's up for the rest of my life. And then in addition to that, I have a great deal of psychological trauma. Yeah, that I previously didn't have. Rachel Martin says, It is who you are Yeah Yeah, that was really lovely. She said, if there's an upside to it, maybe it's that it is who you are. And when she said that, I'd never really thought about that before. and That was one of those interviews where you You take a lot away from the interviewer, like you take more away from the interviewer than you give to them even. And that's very rare. I I do feel that way. I feel like it's at least part of who I am It's interesting because My OCD has been really well controlled for the last couple of years. I mean, I've still had issues with depression and anxiety, but the OCD part of things has been really, really under control. for the last at least a year and a half. and It's so fascinating to live without because I've spent my whole life living with it. And I can confirm that there are no upsides. It's so much easier to live without daily cycling spiraling thoughts and the compulsive behaviors and everything. It's just, It's so liberating, it's so freeing So I know Can you talk a good bit about this and it's something that I'm like a little jealous of. You talk a good bit about like mentors in your life and how important those folks have been Yeah, I've had great mentors. I think that I have had you and I have had mom and dad Hm Straight set You know, prettyty good set. And then like, you know, Catherine obviously not really a mentor very much a peer, but right My work life didn't provide me with that. and maybe I had opportunities for it and I I didn't take advantage How did that happen for you Do you feel like it was Did you have agency in finding those people someome, but I also think there's something about me where Smart older people, especially when I was in my twenties where smart older people were like, oh, we should take this kid under our wing, otherwise he's going to die I think that might be literally true. Like I think if Amy and Amy Chrross Rosenthal and Eileen Cooper hadn't taken care of me I don't know that I would have been okay I remember like one of my mentors at booklist, Stephanie's Verin She came to me one day and she was like, Hey, HR says you're cashing all your checks at the grocery store And I was like, yeah, hell is he gonna to do it And she was like, you need a bank account, buddy And I was like, M don't know how to do that And so she walked me in our lunch break, she walked me to the bank and helped me set up a bank account. And like that was my level of functioning in my early twenties, you know I think there was a lot of luck involved if there was A smart play involved, it was getting close to people who were doing cool work. like When Amy Cross Rosenthal emailed me, I had enough good taste to say, Amy Cross Rosenthal, you are an amazing writer in person, and I am a huge fan of yours. That's always nice to hear, especially If as Amy was at that time, you're not super famous Right? So like Amy, Amy didn't hear that every day And I think that probably made a difference, but I think a lot of it was luck too I have started to do that some people being like, hey, like what you do and how you're doing it feels It feels like the best thing I do I find that too. I find it really rewarding and Our dad is a great mentor, not just to us, but also to other people, and I think I learned that from him. Mom's a great mentor too. I mean, think about all those high school kids that mom helped when we were in college and stuff. Oh yeah There's something about watching someone you've helped succeed. Yeah that is so much more pure than succeeding yourself. totally. Because I'm so like in it and self critical and imposter syndrome, etcetera, etcetera But when I watch someone who I've even given a little bit of advice to. I'm just on their team, you know. Right. And then like something cool happens to them. It feels good in a really pure way Well, rooting for people is one of the great joys of being a person Getting to root for people and You know, I feel that way about a lot of the young people who were in the movie adaptations of my books or young people I know online or whatever I feel like getting to root for them is such a pleas It's like, yeah, really, really fun to see them succeed I was thinking about that. I was on Capitol Hill recently to do tuberculosis advocacy and a lot of Capitol Hill staffers came up and wanted pictures with me and I was thinking You know It's really lovely that these people have given me a place in their lives because now they're doing this really important work And That felt pretty good So tuberculosisill day specifically is what? what is this This is where hundreds of people from around the country. I mean, it used to be much smaller. It used to be like thirty five people from around the country, but now it's hundreds of people from around the country from every state. come to Capitol Hill, usually flying at their own expense or driving at their own expense. They come to Capitol Hill and they meet with their senators and Cgresspeople and their offices to talk about The importance of global health funding And it's been remarkably successful behind the scenes off the headlines a lot of the initial cuts have been clawed back And In fact next year probably Tuberculosis spending will be fairly flat in the U. S budget from what it was in the Biden years which is a real that's a real win. It feels like a bit of a loss, but it's a real win And that happens because of advocacy. and So There's a group of hugely dedicated people called TB fighters. It's just this really, really productive community that does an amazing job of advocacy and activism and there partly responsible for the lowering of prices for drugs and diagnostics, but they're also quietly doing this work that involves hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars So much gets done this way. Yeah. And of course, no one would ever write a front page news story about it nor should they because if they did, a lot of the Republicans who support who quietly support global health spending would have to publicly support it and then there would be a problem thing it's true What a thing It's so interesting how that is the right way to do so much is just get powerful people aligned and like the most good gets done outside of the fights. And so you don't want things to become fights. L that's the big thing you don't want. But at the same time, if you want to get elected, you have to create fights Not that there aren't good fights to be having right now. I was going to say, the thing is a lot of those fights are really important. and I do think that things get done in the fights, but A lot happens away from them for sure It's so Good. for people to have the opportunity to actually engage in the system and see it working evenven if it's not working like the way it should or working well, but like to actually feel their impact in the world Yeah And you can go and meet with your congressional offices like they work for you You can get a few hundred people from around the country organized. It can be a pretty effective strategy You also talked in your Wild Card interview about settled law. And the one that you gave was a version of, I think Paul Farmer's quote. Almost everything that's wrong with the world is wrong with the world because we fail to acknowledge that all human lives have equal value Is there anything else that you've taken from your relationships with mentors that has become settled la for you? Perhaps that We are all also worthy of compassion and forgiveness O I don't know if that's quite the same thing as love, but I think it's related Yeah as a pretty big idea 's hard to implement H to implement and also hard to actually It's one of those things that It feels that we are called to do but can never do I mean, I think a lot about the fact that tuberculosis spreads especially well in prisons. and A lot of people in prisons terrible things unconscionable things not everyone, certainly, but a lot of people. And yet, like in my faith tradition, I am specifically called I am specifically told that wherever I see a prisoner, I see God I see the light and love of God Hself or itself or whatever. I am told that And I have to Bring that about that like These people are also worthy of love and care and forgiveness in the world. and what they did or didn't do is irrelevant to the question of that worthiness They're just like Crazy ideas in Christianity. I'm sure that this is true of all faith traditions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's radical ideas. There's radical ideas. It's radical. And like it is non intuitive. You know, like what we feel called to do is to punish. notot to love. What we feel called to do is to be afraid, not to welcome And like obviously because we keep doing it even though we've been Cold so strongly in no uncertain terms. to not do those things. And I think that that's like Like I obviously think of religion as a tool that people use to orient their lives and to orient communities and to build societies together. It's also a tool of power. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's also a tool of God sponsored power over people. M, I think that's important to remember Now I'm the one being critical of religion and you're the one who's celebrating it again. Well, you always are Well, I think it's important. I think it's important to acknowledge that like this stuff is dangerous because it's so powerful But it is interesting to me that like which stories work And sometimes they can be, of course, that like this is about us and our story should be the one that spreads everywhere But then there's also an element of like You know, the worst person you know Like the person in your community that's done the worst thing like you should look at them and see God And it's not like that one didn't end up being as successful religion That one works Yeah, I mean, it kind of works in spite of that stuff, I think. But yeah I think that's true for Islam too. I think it's true for Buddhism. I don't know much about Hinduism or Judaism, but I'm sure it's true for them as well I think that's pretty universally true There's a mix of how these releligions come to succeed Gi. One of the ways is by think by really asking people to closely consider their ethical choices. So The thing that we've been talking about, you and I is like my desire doing this and do more. Yeah your desire to be maybe a little less famous as time goes on. I've watched you go through it And you might think that it would be kind of a scared straight story for me where I'd be like, Yp, that's not the thing to do. But I'm still at it Do you think I'm making a huge mistake No, because I think that you're making a gift for people. I think that sometimes you make it for selfish reasons, but I think you're making a gift for people and I think People really benefit from hearing from you. You're very careful, you're very thoughtful in the way that you construct your opinions and with what you share Not always, but usually And I think it's a net benefit for the world My concern has never been whether it's a net benefit for the world. It's always been whether it's a net benefit for you and your family. And I'm still concerned about that I was talking to my therapist about it actually, and she was like, Yeahah, but that's who he is. That's what drives him. Yeah. and Who am I to say that you're doing it wrong. I mean, It's a lot of what drove me too It's just less of what drives me now. But it's still there, Hank. Like it's not like I've transcended above needing fame or needing outside affirmation. I needed as much as I always did. I just had enough negative feedback that I got a little burnt out on the whole the whole enterprise Do you think you're still ambitious Yeah, but in different ways. I'm not trying to take over the world anymore or sell the most books or win the most prizes or anything like that. I think now I want to I want to do this thing that I'm incredibly lucky to be able to do, which is follow my actual creative curiosity and passion That's pretty great Almost nobody gets this opportunity. and so I shouldn't be passing it up in the name of trying to hold on to some abstract idea of what success looks like So you've got that opportunity, you've got public health and tuberculosis and advocacy, you've got the mentorship that you can do but only can do so much of You've got a private life and all of what comes with it. You've got taking care of yourself. It's a lot. How are you figuring out how to balance those things. Do you This is a B Green question. Do you feel like much of yourself is for yourself or are you mostly Sure the work I don't know that I need a lot of myself to be for myself I don't know that that actually benefits me much. I think the more time I spend gazing at my navvel, the worse my life gets. Som well, it doesn't have to be all nal gazing. It could be taking walks from the woods Yeah, I wish I had more time to take walks in the woods, but that stuff will come I really like working. I don't like it as much as you do, but I like it a lot. Yeah. I like having something to do in the world Yeah, it's pretty great to be able to do it. But it's almost, you know, you still have to figure out which bits to do. Yeah. And I almost feel like all of the time that I'm not spending mentoring is a little bit misplaced because I'd rather other people have the opportunities I have the extent to which And you know, this is very hard to do because I enjoy the work so much, but I want other people to be able to have this. But there's a balance between what's the most productive use of your time in terms of the social order and what you're passionate about and enjoy and like following. And I think for you, it's that you can't do only one thing. you just don't find any you don't find enough fulfillment in it. You need to be doing more than one thing How do you think you would have been if you were a teenager these days Like if you've been raised with the current set of social structures and tools I would have been so different, it's hard to imagine because The internet is such a radical, disruptive change in the nature of being a teenager I think that I would have thrived on you know, websites like Tumblr and Twitter and Reddit because I liked to write You know, I like to express myself through typing And they're perfect for that Thrive is an interesting word, though Yeah, I mean, I would have done well on those platforms, but probably to my overall detriment I think that I would probably be fairly radicalized Politically I think that I would be even more strongly opposed to the existence of billionaires than I currently am. for instance. hope that I would still have a lot of real life relationships because I think that's so much of the value of being young or being alive in general. So I hope that I would still pursue those, but I worry that I might not I feel like it was pulling teeth to get me to do things with other people Even when the internet sucked, when I didn't have alternatives. Yeah, when the alternative was like making a website hand coding HTML. R And by hand citic HTML, I mean copying it and pasting it from another website Yep, Yep. And then sort of like editing it a little bit to make the Jiff spin Yeah, well ye, making the background a different color And I just think I would have been so lonely Yeah, for sure Do you think We're going to get through this By which I mean, there have been many times in the past when we've had these revolutions in how we communicate with each other and then we eventually build social structures that like it becomes cringe to use them in manipulative ways, it becomes string to be manipulated by them people start to see the the strings that are pulling them. Yeah, it becomes cringeer, it becomes illegal Yeah, actually with radio. is what happened. Yeah, harder to do that with the internet Do I think that we will get through it? Yes. Do I think that is at its Nadater? No. I think that things will get much worse I actually think that Things are much more stable than you'd expect them to be given the size of the revolution that we're undergoing, the technological revolution that we're undergoing. And I think that things will probably become less stable unfortunately I think that in terms of the impact of the recommendation algorithms, we're getting a little bit betteret at it, not like equally among every person People are actually spending less young people are spending less time on the internet this year than the year before Though, from a very high peak. Yeah, from twelve hours of screen time to eleven and a half. Yeah. I worry more about The waves of innovation cresting over each other. This is very worrying. Yeah I worry about AI and I worry about our ability to distinguish among what's real and what's fake and what's somewhere in between. I worry about the size of the disruption caused by potential shifts in the economy. I worry about the size of the disruption caused by five people controlling what we say and who we say it to and what we think about. on some level U And AI makes that worse. AI makes that worse. Now we've got like three chat models and it's like, okay, which world do you live in? Do you live in the clawed world, the ChatCPT world, the Grock world? And those are different worlds Different Yeah. And like who decided that Who's in charge of that? And that is really like a reality defining event Yeah, and we're still at the very beginning of this. I mean, ninety six percent of people don't use AI And I see people talalking now about like I feel like we're on the edge of peopleeople will talk about the surrogate numbers we have for thriving, whether that's like GDP or whatever. L these are obviously surrogate numbers They may do a fairly good job under certain circumstances. average income infant mortality is a good one. But I'm starting to see people finding the surrogate number going up being the same thing as human thriving increasing. And like those things do eventually decouple obviously. And we're headed into a world like very specifically where they may decouple. L if all of the work is done by the computers what are the humans for? And you can see them struggling with this because they aren't necessarily thinking about it. You know, those moments where you say to a billionaire like, But you're like in favor of humans existing and they're like, Yeah, I haven't really thought about it. Maybe not. Yeah, or they don't even say I haven't thought about it. They're like, like what's the, you know, what's the marginal utility of humans Yeah, what's that exactly? And I just I think entitling this podcast humans I'm a little bit saying like that this is a conversation that is going to be about us no longer being the only thinking entity on the planet. People will come at me for that phrasing and I will work on it and try and do a better job of it in the future. But yeah, I mean, I'm going to come at you for it actually Butj expected But eventually eventually we might not be the only thinking entity on the planet Yeah, it does feel like we're ushering in a new form of evolving intelligence whether or not that intelligence thinks definitely is not Programmed, it is grown And that's very weird. And in that world I still think that we are like the thing. And in a way, let me hit you with this. I've never said this out loud So like there was a time when all of human labor was done by human muscles. Y. And then we outsourced that. And like we still care about our muscles and they're still very important part of our health. But like if you would like to move a steel beam, you're not going to use a man You're going to use a hse. You're going to use a horse, and then you're going to use a machine, etcetera. So we've outsourced that It may be that we outsource This thing that we think that is like the most important part of humans, which is intelligence. and I don't think that it is I think that it's an important part, but I think that we're only anchoring on it because we're like, oh, we've got it and nobody else does But maybe there's like another thing that's more important which is one the working together to decide what the problems are to what that rests on is like what creates value? Right, Well that takes us back to like the question of whether a raccoon is better than an amoeba Would we rather live in a universe with raccoons or a universe with only ammoebas? Yeah. and I think that the only reason a rock is better than a void is because I say so And so I think that we have to maybe be in touch with that We may not be the only source of strength And we may not be the only source of intelligence in the long run But like, maybe we're the ones who do define what matters and what problems matter and what problems get solved. because we're the ones who are like actually the source of The universe having meaning I like the idea that we're the source of the universe having meaning I mean, whether you construct it as you do, like you believe in constructed meaning and I believe in derived meaning what we agree on is that there is meaning and the meaning is inextricably wrapped up in humans to go back to the Billy holiday record tree falling in the wood makes a sound regardless of whether there's someone to hear it, but actually they're literally is no Billy holiday record if there's nobody left to hear it And I can imagine a world where non human entities experience something from listening to a Billy holiday record. I can't imagine a world where they get to experience what I experience. John Green I'm going to ask you our last question now. Okay What's something that you've learned from your work that you wish everyone on Earth knew So I think the biggest thing I've learned from my work is something that we all do know. which is that all human lives have equal value The issue is that We and I include myself in this Don't without that knowledge. We don't enact that knowledge as policy, as systems, as law. Instead, we allow ourselves because of the limits of our empathy to imagine that the lives of people who feel distant are different from ours are somehow less caught up in ours. And As long as we're doing that, we're going to really struggle to make progress And I think the story of human history, like the glory of human history, if you look at it what you cited earlier, the expanding empathy circles And if we can continue to expand our empathy circles, we are going to make progress. And if we can't, we're pretty hosed I think that there are people who not just haven't heard that. but who don't believe it Yeah, there are people who don't believe it, but I think they are denying something that is inside of them that they know is true. And maybe that's like a little bit metaphysical of me, but I think that There are people who don't think all human lives have equal value for sure. And I mean, obviously throughout history, there have been, right? Because we've enslaved people. We've known that people were people and chosen to enslave them, which is an indication of failing to value human lives appropriately I believe that there is something within us that tells us that human lives are equally valuable. and I believe that is like a capital T truth That is a settled law, if you will And so I think we have to enact that world. We have to come together to enact that world John, one thing I know about you is that you're old now. Yeah. forty Eight L That means I'm going to be forty eight in three years. I know And I also have like watched you go through it Like close up I keep seeing you change and do things differently and decide to prioritize new things, which is really admirable and not easy Maybe it is, I don't know How do you stay open to that? How do you stay open to like always evolving and like being different mission We're working on a different set of problems or you know using a different set of tools When I was a kid, I thought that adulthood was this single thing, you know, like childhood was the train journey and then you got to the train station that was adulthood and you stayed there until you died And it turns out that that's not the case, of course, like adulthood is every bit as interesting and challenging and full of change as childhood was, like your feet stopp growing, but you don't. Yeah, I mean, there is a certain amount of like, I guess Tonight is figuring out what to do about dinner again. There is some repetition for sure. A lot of conversations about how minivans handle surprisingly well and homeowners association meetings and so on. but like I I find that You know, it's actually quite easy to grow and change in adulthood as long as you have the support of people around you as long as you're growing and changing with others. likeike Sarah and I talk a lot about the fact that Both of us find our twenty something selves extremely cringy And I can't believe that twenty four year old Sarah fell in love with me M But of course, she wasn't her then. she was a much younger person. and I was a much younger person. And so I just think continuing to grow is kind of the coolest thing about adulthood. So I hope that I continue to change and I hope that I look back on the age of forty eight with the same level of cringe that I look back on the age of twenty six Thanks to all the humans who helped make this episode. Morgan Levy is the show's supervising producer, and Greg Rippen is our engineer. Pyton Mitchell manages our social media, Andrew Wuang composed the music and James Barnard designed the artwork. You can and should, follow us wherever you listen to podcasts Let's do it over time Hand