Future Plans and Final Thoughts

Hey there. It's Robin from PRX and I want to take a moment to tell you about a big year long series from this day, a history podcast here at Radio Topia. twenty twenty six is America's two hundred fiftieth birthday this is where. And folks over at this day have requested that I try and say semi quincentennial ten times fast . Anyway, it's been two hundred and fifty years since the Declaration of Independence and over at this day they are in the middle of a year long series called Fifty Weeks That Shaped America . This day is doing deep dives each week on the stories from two hundred fifty years of US history that brought us to this very complicated moment. Some of them are new perspectives on huge moments like the Civil War or Prohibition . Others are lesser discussed stories that still had a massive impact, like the Transcontinental Railroad or the so called hard hat riots of the nineteen seventies. This day is also doing a special weekly newsletter, live shows, collaborations, bonus episodes, and lots more. So as we head towards the fourth of July and beyond, this is a great time to join in. If you need a little help navigating America's big birthday, check out this day . Go to this daypod dot com or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, this is Alex, and really quickly before we start, I just wanted to ask you, the listener , to consider becoming a premium member of the show at hyperfixedpod dot com slash join . We are growing and I'm really happy with the show we're putting out, but my dream for twenty twenty six is to be able to both give my producers raises and to be able to offer them healthcare . And both of those things are very much in reach . Right now we have three thousand two hundred subscribers, and my back of the envelope math says that with fifteen hundred new subscribers we will be able to accomplish both of these things and squirrel away a little bit of money for reporting projects. That's not so many people, we can do it together. And if you support the show, you get a bonus episode twice a month. Sometimes they're extended interviews, and a lot of times it's like a story that we weren't quite able to finish just something that we were interested in that de viates big time from the main feed. Also, if you become a premium member, you can hang out on our discord, which at this point has just become another reporting tool for us. There's like so many smart , funny people on there with fascinating areas of expertise , and a lot of stars of previous episodes like to hang out there. Anyhow, let's see if we can get to fifteen hundred new premium subscribers by this summer. It would be absolutely game changing for this show . Thank you so much for listening. Again, that's hyperfixpod dot com slash join. All right, here's the episode . Hi, I'm Alex Goldman. And this is Hyperfix . Each week on our show, listeners write in with their problems big and small, and I solve them, or at least I try. And if I don't , I at least give a good reason why I can't. This week , finding Shogun . So I think it's fair to say that as both a user and an artist, it is not unreasonable to be unhappy with Spotify. In the last five years, the company has platformed danger ously false information, it's run recruiting ads for ICE, and it continues to pay artists less than almost any other streamer. But for hyperfix listener Miguel, a visual artist currently based in the Netherlands, the beef with Spotify is much more personal than that. When I was younger, I would listen to music and that was the activity. I'd open up the CD and look at all the lyrics and all the things that the band had written and I would reach a point where I could memorize which songs were which track. I'd never play it on shuffle because there was a right order and the right story that the artist was trying to tell. So I used to really sync my teeth albums and then lately it's become just the real of music has shifted to almost like sonic decoration, you know After years of streaming, Miguel's begun to notice his relationship with music doesn't feel like much of a relationship anymore . He doesn't absorb the names of artists or songs he likes. He's not storing new lyrics in his memory , and he doesn't like that. So recently, Miguel made a decision to quit Spotify and to recommit himself to the kind of active, intentional listening he did when he was younger, before streaming turned music into wallpaper and artists into content creators. But in the process of doing that, Miguel has hit a snag . A problem that has proved so complex , so full of confusing dead ends and contradictions that he couldn't solve it on his own . So he came to us for help . It started a few days before our conversation . One day he was com throughing the music on his playlists and making physical lists of the albums he would need to acquire to make this jump . And he discovered that one of the bands that he's been listening to, this indie band called Shogun , doesn't actually have any albums for purchase . And then he discovered that they don't actually play live . And then he discovered that nobody actually knows who they are . And that's when Miguel started to panic . Because one of the internet's most popular theories about why Shogun is so absent from the physical world is that they are not of the physical world . They're an AI band masquerading as a real one And the reason this idea was so troubling to Miguel is that in addition to sounding human , the experience of listening to Chogrin had made him feel more connected to his humanity. So they have this certain sound that's kind of like it has the same feeling as like hanging out on a friend's like rooftop or when you're on a road trip and you've gone past the threshold of your city and like what's familiar. There's a bit of like nostalgia in like this bright I could feel like this bright summer day. Oh, that's so poetic . Yeah A lot of their songs just feel like, oh, this could be a soundtrack like my summer or whatever moment. If you want to you are Before Miguel wrote to us about Chogrin, I'd never heard their music. But as soon as I hit play on this song, I understood exactly the feeling he was talking about . And if you grew up in the suburbs, you probably know it too. Riding bikes aimlessly around town, gathering a gaggle of friends as you go, hanging out in front of the liquor store, begging the cool looking adults to hook you up , spending your last five bucks to share half a burrito because you can't afford an entire one , and finishing off the day exploring abandoned buildings near the Huron River. I mean, maybe the last one is specific to me, but you get the point . Those aimless days full of potential where the point of the day is simply to waste the day . And I think that if I knew those feelings could be manufactured by an algorithm, it would rob them of their magic. So while I understood why Miguel would be shaken by this , personally, I wasn't too worried about it. More on that later Okay, so let's assume for a minute this band isn't AI and they're just anonymous . What does a solution look like for you? Is it going to be knowing who the band is or is it going to be them having physical releases? Like what is the solution you'd like? I would love to know who they are. That's definitely a thing. Like if they have any shows at all, I would love to go one, but a very, very good consolation prize would be to have their songs as playable files so that once I delete my Spotify, I can revisit their tracks whenever I want . I mean the music piece of this feels very doable , but if we came back to you and we're like, hey, we're able to confirm that they're not AI , but they want to maintain their anonymity , is there any additional information you would like to learn about them? Or is that enough information to feel like it's a sufficient solve? Oh, I don't know. I mean yeah, like what if it's like a banksy situation, right ? Yeah, I feel like being told that oh we found them. They prefer not to blow their cover , just trust us that they're real would not be a hundred percent satisfying. I'd be relieved because I think I could trust you guys , but there'd still be a little bit of like hmm this nagging feeling like what if that's part of a ruse as well? Not maybe they duped you too . If we found some people who are like, yeah, we're the band, would you be satisfied or would you like need to see them perform a song ? Oh, like a tiny dust concert, that'd be amazing I'm not that entitled . But I mean, what maybe the most definitive form of proof would be like, Art, we met these people . And also , here's footage of them playing music. That'll be amazing. All right, well, we're on it and I think those are all my questions . So Miguel, we're gonna start sniffing around and see if we can dig anything up. I can't wait for the next update if there is one. I'm hoping there is one. All right, I'm putting my cards on the table here to let you know that before I had ever even listened to Chogrin, I knew they weren't an AI band . And there's no sexy technical explanation for why I knew that. It was really just a timeline thing. So I'm sure as you already know , AI is, unfortunately, everywhere these days. Pe areople using it to make everything from screenplays to songs, and they're not always disclosing the fact that AI was used to make them . But Chogrin started releasing music in twenty fifteen . And eleven years ago , that was not so much the case . Back then, companies were pouring money into the development of AI tools that people are using today . So anytime one of those tools actually succeeded in doing the thing it was designed to do , the companies that developed it would be shouting from the rooftops . And that is exactly what happened when Sony's computer science lab unveiled the first AI generated pop song in twenty sixteen , a full year after Shogun released their first single . The event was covered by everyone from CBS News to Spin Magazine , and its creators weren't hidden, they were platform ed. They wanted to tell the story of how this technology had been used to make this thing . Because what they were selling wasn't a song that could pass as a human creation , it was the technology that had been used to create that song . And sure, you could argue that maybe some renegade researcher went off and decided to create a summer anthem that would capture the hearts of millennials everywhere. But I guess my logic is just like if someone had figured out how to make an AI generated pop song anyone else and better than anyone else , why would they be quiet about it? Certainly wouldn't be for profit . Because even though Shogun's first song was a hit . And it really was a massive hit. Like when it debuted on Spotify's new music Friday in July of twenty fifteen, the song exploded . It got picked up by radio stations all over the country. It wound up in a commercial for auto trader , on a couple TV shows, a movie , and even with all of that , the technology capable of creating such a profitable song would still have greater profit potential than the song itself. So yeah , before we ever even started searching for Shogun, we'd already chucked the internet's most popular theory about why they're so elusive and started focusing our attention on the internet's second most popular theory , which is that the band that we call shogrin is actually a side project an alter ego of a different indie band . Now, as far as we could tell, this theory is born from the fact that when you Google Image Search Shogun, you end up with photos of a handful of other indie bands . And on its own there's nothing compelling about this . But what was compelling was the way one of these bands seemed to be engaging with and even teasing at the idea that they may also be chogrin . Nobody's gonna know . Nobody's gonna know. They're gonna know . How would they know ? How would they know ? What you just heard was the audio from an Instagram reel that was shared by a Minnesota based band called Bad Bad Hats. On the screen, there's a video of the band's singer Carrie Alexander making comically mysterious faces , while a montage of screenshots cycles behind her. In these screenshots, taken from Reddit and Twitter , you can see people discussing the question of whether or not Chogrin is bad bad hats . And in the caption, the band weighs in with a single sentence . We are probably not chogrin So of course we saw that and we're like, yeah, these guys are probably Shogun . And frankly, this wasn't the only piece of evidence suggesting that they were. In fact, I think the most compelling piece of evidence was the fact that Shogren's official Twitter account had retweeted photos of bad bad hats , photos that were being used to stand in for photos of Shogren , and they had done this on multiple occasions . So either Shogren was bad bad hats or they were using bad bad hats as a decoy. But whatever the case , it seemed like bad bad hats were participating in this deception . And since we were able to find contact information for their PR team, we reached out and scheduled a time to talk . So I'm going to ask a very easy question first, which is if you could each introduce yourselves and tell me your name and what you do for a living. Hello . My name is Carrie E R Alexander and I am in an indie rock band called Bad Bad Hats My name is Chris and I'm also in Bad Bad Hats and we're married. Yes , so where does the name bad bad hats come from? Because when I hear right out of the gate, Harry and Chris were super funny and friendly and open , but it was also clear that they had a bit of a mischievous side. In fact, they told me that sort of how they got their band name, which is an homage to the naughty neighbor character in the children's book series Madeline. So while they absolutely fit the mold for what I imagined I'd find in a secret band behind a band , I knew I couldn't just come straight out and ask them if they were chogrun. I needed to build up to it slowly . So we talked about their sound and their influences . They told me the story of how they met on MySpace and how learning to integrate synthesizers into their music had been like the audio equivalent of learning to season your food. It's like salt or something. Like you're not even really registering that it's happening, but it makes the chorus go like bang . It felt like it was going great. And I was playing it cool, waiting for the right moment to ask the question , but when the moment came this is what came out of my mouth. So okay , I've brought you here, I've brought you both here for a reason. This is not honestly, this is tough to listen to. I feel like I can hear the flop sweat all over my face . But like until that moment, I hadn't really considered how big a question we were about to ask them. If Bad Bad hats were chogrin, then it was a secret they'd been keeping for a decade , a secret that, if revealed , could have real consequences on the way they live their lives. And yet, here we were rolling off out of nowhere, asking them to reveal themselves for the very first time while we were recording . It's a crazy question to surprise someone with , but I was already in too deep. So I did my best to explain Miguel's predicament and the story of how we caught onto them, and then I finally pulled the trigger . So I have to ask you, in addition to the bad bad hats, are you also Shog I can no longer sustain this this web of lies . We would have gotten away with it if not for this meddling podcast , but no , we are not chog . What? You're not ? . Oh my god, that's crazy because my producer just handed me this and she was like, Oh, I think I found the band. And I was like, great. And so I fully expected you to be like, yes, we are the ban children. I wish I could say that we were. I think you can tell that I was pretty stunned, but I was also a little relieved because even though I really wanted to solve this mystery, I didn't want to do it in such a gotcha kind of way . But it turns out the bad bad hats have been just as curious about the chogrin situation as we were . Because even though they had a bit of fun posing as Chogrin , bad bad hats did not originate this rumor about themselves. I , like Miguel, am a long standing fan of a band called Shogun . They're on all my playlists. I love the vibe, and I'm also like , they are showing up often for fans of bad hats. And I'm thinking to myself , we would be a great opener for Chogrin. I would be a great concert attendee for Chogrin . So I'm telling Chris, I'm sitting on the couch. I say, Chris , it's so annoying that Chogrin doesn't tour because we would be such a great fit to tour with them. Chris was like, What do you mean they don't tour? And I was like, I don't know, I just think it's their whole thing that like they don't tour and like no one knows who they are. But I was like, I don't know, let me look into it. So I Google Chogrin , who are they? What's the deal ? And I find myself on Reddit . com and I'm like, okay, here people are talking about this. I'm reading through and I'm shocked, shocked to find that I am being implicated as children themselves So what was it like to find out that people believe you are chogrin ? It was honestly really bizarre. My mouth was agate and I think I yelled to Chris. I was like, my oh you were, not going to believe this. I literally I was innocently trying to find who this band is. And then I discovered that I'm the band. No one told me . But it was weird. Like it just all seems to have stemmed with one tweet where like a radio station was like, check out the new Chogrin song but posted a photo of Baba Hats, which why Probably mistake . It's so funny . But then so people on the Reddit are like, well, now that you mention it, I'm hearing the similarities . It's all making sense to me. It's all clicking in my head , but then unfortunately there were people pushing back on that and saying , guys , there's no way these are the same because the singer of Beba Hats squeaks when she hits high notes and slurs her for words . That's tough to read. That's up to read. Y'all listening, don't seek fame . It only leads it only leads to heartache. When we heard this information we were like, this is an interesting situation to be in. I thought it was actually maybe an opportunity claim that we were shogren and announce the first ever shogren tour . Yeah . Like honestly you would clean up. I think that the people in Chogrin would probably be pretty upset with you, but they would have to come out of the woodwork and say, Here we are. We are actually shogren and you can't do that. Now you did post an Instagram reel about this conspiracy with the caption, guys, we are probably not shogred We felt the need to be a little saucy . We felt the need to take advantage of this of this mystery certainly . But honestly, I legitimately was like, people know we're not like I'm gonna post this. It's going to be funny. But I certainly have only fueled the fire more because now at almost every show we play, people are like, so you are chaogrin. I'm like, No, I thought we were all on the joke that we're not . So are you using this opportunity to come clean because like you feel like you need to, or is it just this just a fun thing and you don't think it matters at all? I guess I would say I mostly think it's it's pretty fun. We are very besides our one mysterious post , which I think I think I was owed one mysterious post by being implicated by the people of Reddit. We are very we are very upfront with the people at our shows that we are we are not them and also that we like them want to know . We are hoping we're counting on you Alex to give us this information as well because I got to see I got to I gotta know what's going on . Okay , so before I let you go, I am going to dip briefly into conspiracy . Okay . How do I know that you're not lying to me and that you are n't children? I guess you don't. I guess you just have to look deep inside yourselves , listeners as well and be like is this woman spinning the tallest tail you've ever heard ? I don't know. I'm a little bit out there . You can maybe see it. She's a little wiley, she's a little wacky . Could this all be an elaborate improv sketch? Who could say? I mean, Bad Hat was a mischievous character, wasn't he? He was Yep After our conversation with Bad Bad Hats, we were like completely tickled , but also completely empty handed . We had no more theories to tests, no more leads to follow up on, we'd already tried all the conventional ways of contacting Shogren, and we hadn't heard back . But we knew they had to be reachable somehow . And the reason we knew that is because their music had been used in TV shows and commercials. And in order for that to happen, deals have to be brokered, licenses would have to be issued, and the person who would handle that stuff would need to be not only reachable , but also findable. So we started looking for the company that handles the publishing rights for Chogren's music . And once we found Cut Craft Music Group, everything started moving really fast. We wrote a letter to the guy who handles their publishing, and he passed it to the guy who manages the band who passed it off to Chogrin themselves . And within a couple weeks, we were on a video call with the band . But we weren't allowed to record it. We spoke to them off the record, and it was totally amazing . Everything about what they're doing and why they're doing it the way they're doing it felt like it made perfect sense . But we knew we couldn't just report that back to Miguel . He'd been super explicit about the idea that if we were n't able to tell him who they were , he would want some other kind of proof that they were real , something like early footage of them playing together . And now that we'd spoken to them, we knew that kind of footage probably didn't exist , which meant that delivering a satisfying answer was going to come down to them agreeing to an on the record interview . But we understood why they'd be hesitant to do that . For the last ten years .fess Pionroal anonymity had been working great for them , and we had no intention of messing that up . But we explained the situation, and they told us they'd think about it. And after that, all we could do was wait and check in from time to time , which we did for five months until we finally got an answer Okay, so how are you guys feeling? Natural nerves going on. Like what is this After the break , chogrin The show was supported by Notion . With the recent launch of custom agents, Notion became the collaborative AI workspace where teams and agents work side by side . And now their new developer platform is turning that workspace into infrastructure developers can build on. Notion's developer platform gives developers and coding agents the primitives to extend what's possible on Notion and take it beyond, connect to external systems, bring context in, take permission actions across your tool stack, and expose custom agents capabilities to any system that needs them. It includes new primit ives that allow systems to sync any data source into Notion, build any tool for your Notion agents, and orchestrate any agent in Notion. Plus, it's easy to use. CLI authenticates in one line, workers deploy without provis ioning infrastructure. And with a cloud based zero infrastructure path, you can just write your code, deploy, and you're done. Learn more about Notion's developer platform today at Notion. com slash purx. That's all lowercase letters notion dot com slash purx to try notion's developer platform today . And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. Welcome back to the show . So before the break finally found Shogun . But when we did, we couldn't say anything about it because they weren't ready to speak on the record . So we waited a bit and then we checked in and then we waited a bit longer and then we checked in. And folks never let people tell you that persistence doesn't pay off because after a while they were finally just like okay , we're going to bite the bullet. We are ready to record with you. So to start things off, I'm wondering if you guys could introduce yourselves just your name and what you play . Yeah, so I'm Maya. I try to do many things, but some would mostly think of me as a singer and a writer . I'm Sam . I play the drums, but I kind of dabble in whatever's around me, play the computer . He's a little bit of guitar, a little bit of bass. I'm dawn and I think at this point I mostly stare at a laptop , fumble around a guitar every once in a while, mumble into a microphone, but it's largely just staring at a laptop in a dark room. This is Maya, Don and Sam, the artists that have been collectively making music under the moniker chogrin . And if there is one thing you should know about them, it's that they never meant for any of this to happen the way that it's happened. They never intended to be anonymous, and they never intended to be a band without physical recordings of their music . Because frankly , they never actually intended to be a band . The story of Shogun is one of arriving before you're ready to arrive and having to figure out what to do with that situation once you're already in it . But it starts at a high school in Fremont, California just across the bay from Palo Alto . Maya, Don and S,am were normal suburban scrubs with dreams of becoming musicians. Don and Sam had their own little garage band with a revolving door of singers that never quite fit , and Maya was an aspiring singer songwriter who was a little too shy to do either one of those things publicly. They knew of each other, but they never really connected . And in the years following high school, they pursued their separate musical dreams. Don and Sam went to LA to be producers . They got a publishing deal and started submitting songs to pop artists, but they never really landed anything . Meanwhile, Maya was in Nashville trying to cultivate her songwriting, but never really finding her footing. And by twenty fifteen , they all felt like professional failures . So when Maya moves back to California, one of their mutual friends tells Don and Sam, Hey, Maya's been trying to make it as a musician. And they figured we should reach out to her. I was in the drive through at McDonald's with negative eight hundred dollars in my bank account and she sent me a bunch of voice memos and at that point she had like not really written over like productions or songs. She would just sing into her phone these like three minute songs that were like very clear that she had like a command of like song flow and and a great voice and really cool lyrics . And it was like, hey, you should come down to LA and write with us . They got together and wrote a series of demos that they almost didn't put out . And then on a whim one night , uploaded them to Soundcloud and sent them out to a bunch of blogs , which got us like just enough positive feedback to go and record a fully produced song . So the song was called seventeen . We put that out on Spotify and it kind of took off. The timing was right. It was kind of the end of the blog scene, the beginning of streaming. Spotify was really becoming a thing and we were kind of at the top of one of the first new music Fridays, which kind of introduced us to an entirely new audience, and that brought a whole other level of attention beyond, I think, what the blogs were capable of. All of a sudden, the song was racking up streams . People were sharing it, people were writing about it , and all of that was great . What wasn't so great was that suddenly people wanted to interview them. They wanted to know who they were and what they were about . And obviously, the group didn't know how to answer that stuff . Because again, this was literally the first song they'd ever produced together. So they avoided interviews like the plague . And when they started getting calls from business people wanting to fly them to New York and sign them to record deals and send them out on the road , it didn't feel like a dream come true. It felt too fast and it felt wrong . I was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what's going on here? Everyone was nice and cool, but you know , you want to get into business with people that understand you. And I think at that point in our careers, no one had anything to go off of except that we had just had this song blow up. Nobody seemed to understand that they weren't actually a band , or that because of the way this song had been made, which involved a lot of tinkering around on computers, they couldn't actually recreate it live . And people really didn't understand why the group was so resistant to doing interviews and photo shoots . But it just felt like everything was happening too soon. The group wanted time to figure things out and grow organically without the pressure of having to do it in public . So even though they would have loved to have the resources to quit their day jobs and focus on making music , they decided to go with their guts and continue working independently and privately. I've always felt like I mean this has been challenged over the years, but especially at that time, I felt like technology was emerging in a way that like good music was going to rise to the top. It would find its audience, like the interconnectivity of the internet itself was like very conducive to like the independent artist, which I think has been tested over time . But I still kind of feel this way that like good art has a way of finding its way to its audience . And I thought we were capable of writing like simple pop songs . So I felt like as long as we could keep working together , we'd have the potential to do interesting things . But yeah, there was obviously a lot of pressure to be a band and hit the road and that just felt so foreign to our skill set . Yeah . But it was a hard decision and a hard period of time for sure. You're like, Oh, am I passing up on an opportunity of a lifetime? Or like, is this this? it? Is the thing Is this the thing I get and I should take this? But also at that time we're watching artists like Frank Ocean whose album mixtape was shelved and then he released it himself and became like the biggest artist in the world. It was just like there were examples all around us of artists that were like, you know, maybe this isn't the best path for me . You know, the machine is great for a lot of people, but as you enter into that world, that's like fifty percent of your pro fit is going into that world . And so your songs need to be that much bigger in order for that to be fruitful, choosing the DIY route . You can do more with less , I guess, is the idea. And sure enough, that DIY model worked phenomenally well for them . Their singles continued to get a ton of play from the streamers, they landed some licensing deals, including an ad for auto trader, and eventually they were able to quit their day jobs . And as a result of owning their own music and not being contractually obligated to go on tour or in debt to whatever company prints their albums , they've been able to use these last ten years to focus on finding their sound, writing songs, and releasing things , only when and if they feel proud of them. So after all this time , why you may be wondering, have they continued to remain anonymous ? What was behind the decision to just be anonymous? Was that a definitive decision or did it just evolve to be what it is today? I definitely feel like it evolved into something that I think we'd all kind of wish that we could like kill . Yeah , it wasn't intentional. And then when it's since it's gone this long , it does I think people interpret it as being very intentional , but it seems to us like this is the natural way of being . Yeah, I think we just none of us are natural performers or leaned into that like early on and as we got older, it still wasn't really part of who we were. And then of course you're making music and it's like, what do you visually pair with this? And I think, you know, you look at band pictures of people a lot of times and sometimes they can be really cool and other times you're like, what? This is just the same thing over and over again and you just you're standing next to a blue wall or next to a wall. One of you looking off to the left , you know, and so my God, you're really, you have just called out literally every band photo ever taken. Shot fired . You all struggled with that because it's like you want to make cool art and all of the artists that we look up to are ones that like do unique shit . It felt like people were just pushing like the same recipe on us and it was like, okay, how are we gonna like differentiate ourselves from the crowd ? And I think early on we really wanted to experiment with the video side of things . Kind of never made those connections . And so instead of doing versions of that that like we weren't super proud of, we just didn't do it . And that just led into this anonymity world that grew to a point where it was like , okay, well, how are we going to get out of this now? I don't really want to like put my face on anything . Like I would be perfectly happy never doing that . It's kind of just like a necessary evil that we're trying to like wrap our heads around like what our position is in that . Yeah, I think too, like as it's become a thing, like the we've seen the there's a Reddit thread where people are talking about us being like AI and I think it's hilarious and it's cool to see that bubble up and happen and it's cool to see just like what people do when don't give them much. And that wasn't a part of the plan. It was just not really having a clear idea of something to do that we thought was cool . Being hands off about it has led to an interesting thing, so I'm not mad about it. It is very endearing. Like I haven't read much of it. I try and not look us up or anything like that, but we would like to connect with fans more. We aren't quite sure how exactly yet, but we're figuring it out, I think, or at least we're going to try some things. But yeah, like engaging with the people that are fans would be nice. It'd be cool. And seeing that stuff, it's like when people think we're robots, it's like, well, how do we tell them we're not robots but we're not gonna talk to them very much or wouldn't mind just being robots? Don wants to be a robot . Before we said goodbye to the artists collectively known as Chogrin, there was one more piece of business we needed to handle . This whole thing started because Miguel wanted to get off Spotify, and he couldn't figure out how to leave the platform without leaving their music behind . So we asked them how Miguel can continue to listen to their music and if they have any plans for physical media in the future . We want to do vinyl . I think that for us, vinyl is something that gets us excited. Vinyl also is like music has kind of always followed technology and vinyl was complementing the technology of like seventy years ago and it represents like this project . And the way we've released music in the streaming era is singles. And so if we're going to do vinyl, we would like like it to be this cohesive thing. And I don't think we've got to a place where we're like we feel like we have that. I think we've flirted with it for a long time. And I think that if we have this conversation a year from now and we still haven't put up viny l. I would be disappointed. I think it's something we're going to do in the near future . But even looking back right now, it's like if we were to release vinyl, like how would we do that? What is the collection of songs? And it feels like it would be this disjointed collection of singles with artwork that doesn't I don't know doesn't feel cohesive . So I feel like if you want to support us now, it's kind of like it's streaming, it's merch , you can purchase music on bandcamp , and hopefully we'll have more options in the future. I'm delighted. I swear like this is amazing. When we circled back up with Miguel, he was thrilled to find out that he had not developed an emotional relationship with a robot band, as much as Don may have wished that was the case . But he was also fascinated by the story of how Chogrin came to be in this strange situation . We told them the whole story about how they'd been blindsided by their own success and how, instead of racing to meet a moment they weren't ready for, they'd turned their backs on the traditional trappings of the music industry , on touring and record deals and interviews, although they apparently did give a couple very tiny interviews early in their career . And because they weren't distracted by or obligated to the demands of a traditional music career, they were able to stay focused on what mattered most to them , making music that they felt proud of . And it just so happens that in the process of doing that, they inadvertently built themselves into a bit of a musical mystery. We explained that the reason they don't perform live is because they're not really performers and that the way they make music isn't super audience friendly . It involves a lot of tinkering around on computers in their bedrooms . And it looks more like the work of music producers than the work of a band , a title that doesn't really resonate with them. For Maya, Don and Sam, Chogrin was always just a project , one of many incarnations of their collective musical output. It just so happened to be the one that reached and connected with the greatest number of people . Which brings us to our final point about Shogun . The reason we started this search was because Miguel was beefing with Spotify. He felt like the streaming service made him feel disconnected from the music he used to love . But one of the most interesting things about talking to the group