Final Thoughts on Art and Engagement

Does truth exist? Because you have faith, does that make this book clean? Does God exist. So when someone says there is no truth, if you apply the claim to itself, what should you say? Is that true? They don't think Christianity's true. They're talked out of it! You know why they're talked out of it? Because they've never been talked into it! Cross-examining skeptical and atheistic views. Welcome to Cross Examine with Dr. Frank Turk Alright, we are recording the I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist midweek podcast. My name is Phoenix Hayes and I am so excited to be here today with the amazing Hilary Morgan Ferrer, Alisa Childers, Natasha Crane, and Melissa Doverty. We are fortunate enough to all be here together today because we are all working and attending and speaking at the CIA Instructors Academy 2023 in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's been phenomenal and I'm sure we'll all weigh in a little bit on what how it's going, but the real reason I have these ladies here today is to talk about the new Barbie movie. Now not all of us have seen it, so don't worry, I'm not gonna make them give us a review of a movie they haven't seen. We don't do that around here. But the three of us who have watched it identified some very interesting underlying themes. We all have a slightly different take on. whether we liked it, whether we didn't, what we liked, what we didn't like. So we're gonna weigh in on that and then we're gonna have Natasha and Dougherty share some thoughts on those themes. That Have Permeated our culture in a general sense, way beyond the Barbie movie. So Elisa, I'm gonna start with you. You saw the movie. Give me give me a quick rundown of what you liked about it, what you didn't like about it, what you thought were some of the major issues or non issues. We don't wanna we're not running into this saying, I know it was terrible, tell me why it was terrible. So are we getting spoilers or We can not give spoilers. It's hard to do this without seeing what happens in the otherwise we get accused of just making claims without example some more apologists and we don't do that. Everything so not everything. So go ahead. Spoiler alert. I I so when I first saw the trailer of the movie, I was actually pretty excited to see it because it it looked like it was gonna be deeper than just a fun Barbie movie that was just goofy. You know, you saw this scene where Barbie's got a tear coming down her eye. And I thought maybe this is gonna be really cool. Maybe this is gonna be Barbie stepping out of the unrealistic beauty expectations and Yeah something like that. And there's some of that in the movie for sure. But I was really wrong about the enlightenment that happened in the movie. And so when I watched, I'll be honest with you, it was really hard for me to get through the movie. I found myself wanting to take breaks and just take a break from it for a minute and come back. Um now that doesn't mean there weren't there were some funny lines. There certainly were, and I particularly liked Weird Barbie because all the Barbie's I played with We're Weird Barbie. That's the Barbie you cut the hair and draw on the face and all the Weird Barbie. Although Weird Barbie should not have had clothes on because you I know the Weird Barbie is always naked doing the splits with the cut hair, you know. So just that was it was not entirely accurate in the movie. But so yeah, so Weird Barbie is the the Barbie that's just been played with too hard. And we all had some of the well, all of mine were those. And so what happens in the movie is uh y stereotypical Barbie, which is played by Marco Robbie, which by the way, I thought she did a fantastic job. Uh and actually Ken, played by Ryan Gosling, kind of stole the show a little bit for me. I thought he was so good uh playing those roles. And so she in her per she's in Perfect Barbie Land and then wakes up one day all of a sudden having these thoughts of death. And so she they're at this party and she says, Hey, do you ever think about death, record scratch? Everybody's like, What are you talking about? This is Barbie Land. Yes. And so then the next day she wakes up and just a series of events happen where her waffle gets burnt, she notices cellulite later. But the kind of the most iconic scene is when her feet go flat, 'cause you know, those Barbie feet are like this. And so her feet go flat and it's very symbolic. And I was here for that because I I don't like heels anymore. I've got a bunion from those things. If my feet were like this, I never wear those shoes and I literally went, Amen that was a funny line. That was a really funny line. So it's like yeah, that's not how our feet are shaped. Uh so yeah, it was it was really fun in the beginning. Um I I We can at some point talk about the opening opening scene. Yeah. But i so right now maybe I can have a little extra time because I'm kind of doing the synopsis because I want to give my thoughts too. Heck yeah. But um so I just need more time. I understand. So um yeah, so then Barbie is she finds cellulite on her thigh, which I'm sure they had to superimpose with CGI because But um then she's like what do I do? I don't know what to do. And so she figures out she has to go to Weird Barbie because Weird Barbie fixes all the Barbie problems. And so We Weird Barbie played by um what's her name? Kate McKenzie. Oh my gosh, it's hilarious. She's so So funny. She's like in the splits with So funny. But she basically says, Okay, the only way to fix this is you have to go to the real world, right? So Barbie goes to the real world. I won't belabor it, but Ken hitches a ride, so he's pops up, you know, hey I'm here too. So they go into the real world, they end up on Venice Beach, and Basically in these ridiculous funny outfit. And immediately Barbie starts being harassed. By you know the toxic masculinity that's absolutely everywhere. And uh and then Ken, you know, gets checked out too, but he doesn't feel afraid because he doesn't there's no violence behind it, but for her, she's feeling this violence. And so i the real world, in my opinion, was a caricature of the real world. Yes. It was so ridiculous to think I I'm from LA. First of all, there's not construction workers sitting out on the the strip on Venice Beach harassing women. Wait, you mean a constructive worker has never slapped your butt, walking on Venice? I have to say Venice Beach in general is like the most antihical real world ever. But they actually did pick a really good spot to have a fake real world. It gets even weirder in real life. Yeah. So anyway they go there and and the real world is awful for Barbie, but then Ken's like, oh this patriarchy thing is pretty cool because in Barbie land I forgot to say this. The ken are sort of just there. They're useless. They don't even really interact with the Barbies. And Ken at one point kind of wants to have a relationship with Barbie. And this was funny. Like he tries to kiss her and he's like, Can I spend the night? And she's like, To do what? And he's like, I'm not really sure. So you know, I was actually kind of enjoying all of that. Then they go to the real world, and that's when I was just like, Oh, I'm gonna hate this movie. Because they're portraying and and so the whole movie, in my opinion, portrayed men as either really innately evil, and I'm not talking about an original sin kind of thing where we're on our path to sanctification and men have the law of God written in their heart made in the image of God. There's none of that. Men are just evil or useless. And I think that's because Hollywood, they actually tried to create a couple of good male characters, but I don't think they could do it. Because Hollywood doesn't know what a good man is. H they Hollywood vilifies masculinity. Complementarity, which also is non existent in Barbie land. There's no children or families in Barbie land. So everything that makes a woman a woman or how you identify those claims is all the lens of children and family. So it's it's just crazy like that. So then in uh so Ken's kind of useless. He find this purpose in bringing the patriarchy back to Barbyland, which he does. And so then all the Barbies are like serving them in, just getting them beers, you know. And basically I was hoping like okay, maybe they'll wrap this thing up. with some sort of complementarity between the sexes, right? Some sort of a okay, it's better if people have their roles, but it wasn't that at all. In fact, I was so disturbed by the ending. where basically Barbie they you know maybe somebody else can talk about how they trick the Kens into going to war with one another but ends up in a song and dance and and basically the Barbie' retain you know reclaim the power in Barbie land and kick the Kens back out. So it's back to the way it was. And they say in the movie, this made me so sad. They say in the movie, maybe one day the Kens will have the same rights that the women do in the real world, which was a swipe at the real world. It wasn't saying, Oh, they'll have rights too. It was like oh yeah, you're we're gonna keep you guys down. We're gonna keep you under our feet. And there's no complimentarity between the sexes at all. And the message that I think the movie is trying to convey is that male led culture or family or whatever, course family wasn't even on the radar, is toxic. It's patriarchy, and they use that word so many times. It's not even like they're trying to. Your head will spin at the number of times the words patriarchy is dropped and also cognitive dissonance. That I was partially impressed by. I was like, wow, they slipped that number in time. Barbie was encountering a situation of cognitive dissonance. I was like, Barbie can't say. Barbie can't spell cognitive dissidents. But I digress. And then I'll wrap up my thoughts here. Yeah. I've talked a long time, I'm sorry. But then at the end, Barbie decides to, you know Go into the real world and become a real woman, and this is really disturbing for me. She wants to be a real woman, right? She doesn't have reproductions or genitalia. And she finds the inventor of the Barbie and the the inventor says, You know, I can't do this for you. This is something you have to feel, you have to do it for yourself. So basically the message was what makes a woman a woman? Feelings. So it was very implicit, but gender, sex. in that movie, the message that it's sending out to a lot of young girls that are seeing it. And probably young boys. Is that your sex and your gender is rooted in your feelings, you feel it. And then that's what you are. And then the whole thing ends with Barbie having her first gynecology appointment. Which is so stupid to me. As if that's the pinnacle of being a woman is going to the gynecologist. And that's because our culture has made feminism, I think, has made everything about Yeah. Can I say that on the Can you say V V. It's we're like how did feminism start with trying to find I mean we know this, but feminism starts with trying to f have equal rights to vote on property and it ends with wearing on our heads. It does. It does. We just there's a lot of guys in the room. We don't want to make them uncomfortable. Right, right, right. Hold that thought because you've made some excellent points and I wanna pass it over to Hillary, who has a different take on the film. But before I do that, I wanna just highlight one theme that I saw recur again and again that you just hit on is the ongoing hypocrisy. That you see throughout the film so much as Alisa just said. What made a Barbie a woman ultimately came down to what she felt she was. And then Barbie, you're a woman, you're entering the real world. I'm going to the gynecologist. It was like immediately a c par a contradiction of I'm a woman because I feel like it. I'm a woman because I'm going to the gynecologist. Which is it? So this this recurring theme of in the this internal contradiction that we see with leftist media and ideology and the ones that we're all just meant to consume and not really question. Uh, it just continually collapses on itself with any real prodding. And you just mentioned one. I I identified so many that I'll mention later, but first I want to take it over to Hilary. Yes. Because Hilary you had a very different take. on the film. So so tell me your thoughts. For the record, I did actually listen for as as far as when I was going to the theater, I was listening to your um analysis, Elisa. So I we kinda I was like, it's okay if I get some spoilers and so I had my notebook all ready to go and be like, ah, this is gonna be mail bashing. And I was just surprised at how funny I thought it was. And so one of the things I think we do need to realize is that we can absolutely ruin humor by over analyzing something. Sure. I think that's something that a lot of times both sides kind of criticize each other on the left criticizes. The right, the right criticizes, the left. If sometimes we just need to be able to laugh. But most of the are only funny if feminism is true though. They're they're they're at the expense of men. That's why I couldn't I disagree with that. So I think that they didn't show I think you're right that they didn't show a complementarity. I did think they showed a type of equality. In the sense that showing that if women were in charge, what do we have with the the Ken's? They had nowhere to live, they had no jobs, they had no purpose. It's like in fact one of the Ken says the only highlight of his day is if Barbie looks over at him for just a little bit. And I think one of the kind of I say the meta themes of this is uh that we're actually we're not just looking at uh how people are trying to make a a statement about culture, but we're actually looking at uh the interplay between play in the real world and Barbie land because you always saw something going on between what was happening in the real world, the way the w children were playing, and what was happening in Barbie land. And I think this shows how a lot of times girls have no idea what to do with Ken. He is Barbie's accessory. And I think it was also interesting like we say, oh, the Barbies tricked the Ken's into going to war. I actually don't think that's what was going on. What you saw happen is, you know, Ken got back and he turned it into, was it, uh Ken's uh Mojo Dojo Casa House? Yes. And then it gives the best name ever. And the best name ever. And then it flips to the real world real briefly. And so if they're going, oh my gosh, this Ken's Mojo dojo Casa House. We can't, it's flying off the shelves. So what does that mean? It means that boys in the real world were suddenly bar buying all these bar these Ken dolls. What will boys do with Ken? They will turn lacrosse sticks into weapons and go and give each other purple nurse purple nurples, uh, otherwise known as the Texas Titty Twister, you know, in Texas. And basically send them and go into war. And I was like, what they're showing almost that I think a lot of people missed is what we saw going on with the tens is what would happen if you had boys in the real world that are playing with tens. And the boys have uh you know, with the age range that's playing them, they don't know what to do with Barbie, just like bar uh the girls don't know what to do with Kens. And so we're actually seeing kind of a um a statement on play that the boys and the girls really do have gender differences and they don't know what to do with the other gender, which is one of the things that I thought made it really funny. So do you think most people watching the movie would get that out of it? No, I don't. But uh I mean there might be some people, but I think it was still there. And that's why I was saying I I think some of these themes when people said, Oh, is this good to take my kids to who? And I was like not Because I think it's crass, not because I think it's so inappropriate, but I think the things that make it actually funny are gonna go over their heads. I think it's gonna go over a lot of people's heads. Um I get what you're saying, but I think there's a more sinister motive underneath all that. I don't think it's just about play. Yeah because in the real world How the boys play with the Kens would be informed by this totally toxic patriarchy, just male dominance and rule and uh and abuse and oppression and harassment. And even the way the girls are taught to play with Barbies, based on the movie's worldview, is from a toxic place too. So dying off the shelves because of that. They're singing ad ad nauseum for hours and hours. I wanna push you around. I mean it it was I think it was making fun of this. It it is making fun of this caricature of what is going on where there is that kernel of truth, but the purpose is And maybe this is me because like number one, sometimes when I go into a movie expecting to hate it, like I was totally like, Okay, everybody, I'm gonna take one for the team, here we go. Yeah and I was expecting to hate it, and sometimes that ends up being the movies that I like the most. Well our expectations certainly do. Like I kind of expected to like it. So we were the we were the opposite. So sometimes it's like when it defies what your expectations were, depending on your expectations, that's how you see it. I just thought a lot of the things were so ridiculous and so funny. I just enjoyed the levity of being able to laugh at it. And I think that if you're really trying to portray someone as a bumbling idiot, but try to actually make a statement on reality, you're not gonna use Will Farrell. His character was like a mixture between Buddy the elf and Gatu from uh from Zoolander. And so I it's like they were making fun of themselves on that. And so like I can still see someone because if we did that to women where they were all just like My little bimbo, you know, that we would probably at some point be like, okay, this is old, we've seen this before, is this really what you think? So I I do understand that, but I do think that if there was a lot more tongue in cheek that if we allow ourselves to laugh at it, we could really enjoy this movie, but at the same time having these congreg uh conversations that there is that kernel of truth of what is that kernel of truth that they're trying to say. But we can still enjoy the way that they made fun of this current. I don't think they're they I don't think they're trying to communicate that. I I don't think that's the message they were meaning to convey. How could Hollywood possibly be trying to convey that? There like everything in secular culture right now. is to destroy the family, destroy the complimentarity between jump in. Because I know you ladies have a awesome brains and awesome ideas to share, and I wanna make sure that everybody gets to comment on these topics because this isn't just gonna be a Barbie review. So I came in uh hitting somewhere in the middle. I went in with a nerdy notepad, which I've I've never done before, and I'm scribbling down notes. And um I came out, my husband calls me and says, How bad was it? And my answer was I have to think about that. Because honestly, I enjoyed my experience there. I knew that there were underpinnings that didn't align with my biblical worldview and I had to take a step back and process What had they snuck in in a nice, pretty, pink, glitzy, comedic way delivered by witty um good looking actors that your average person who doesn't really want to deconstruct a movie, they just want to go and have a good time wouldn't pay attention to. So what I walked away from was uh a few points. I guess the two that I want to highlight because then I can um bring in our other really intelligent ladies into the conversation is first of all, there was a ton of internal contradictions, which I already um mention at least he gave me a great example. It was a world where when they were commenting on reality, they wanted a reality that didn't exist. For example, they had a world of Barbies, they wanted a diverse world of Barbies, so we saw that in the ethnic representation, but there was the token uh Barbie in a wheelchair and there was the token obese brunette Barbie. Barbie was treated as though she was equally desirable and attractive as all the other rail thin Barbie's so we're talking about two extreme ideals of beauty, neither of which represented globally what you typically see. And um the the walking contradiction was well if the morbidly obese woman was just as pretty and desirable as all the others why aren't they all like that? It it was so obvious that that wasn't В pretending that you're just as As um Not admirable, that's not the right word, but you're desirable. Desirable uh in in the same way. And I and I feel really comfortable talking about this because I'm someone that struggles with my weight. And I I I'm not going to pretend for a second that someone who's carrying more weight is equally desirable than someone who's not, for multiple reasons. It's simply a matter of have you got self discipline? Is this someone who is in control of how they take care of themselves. There's a there's a lot to unpack there, so I don't wanna go down a rabbit trail there. But I thought you're saying one thing and then And then giving us another. Another example was the idea that Barbie wanted to be able to dress in sexualized clothing and yet didn't want the world to look at her sexually. And that is a common complaint I hear from women. It's like it doesn't work that way. If you want to dress in a way that's going to draw the attention of men, don't be mad when men notice. Right? Um So that's two examples. The one that I really want to bring the wim the other ladies here in on was the Mm. and family. So the movie I'll let you talk about the opening, but The the running joke is that Midge being the pregnant was discontinued because she was weird. And you know what? I thought I agree. That is weird. A pregnant doll. But it wasn't skipper, the one the skipper that kind of grow. Oh my goodness, I get that one. But there's Of course there's no mothers in the Barbie world. The one mother who is one of the lead characters played by America Ferrera is constantly complaining like inserting lines like I'm a I'm just a boring mom. Let me do this. Or Um Boring mom with perfect hair and makeup through the whole movie. Right and it's her clothes and Right. And it's her daughter that is giving her permission to live her life as if somehow it had stopped when she became a mom. Yes. Another line that really bothered me was from the woman who I don't know if it was the actual woman or if it's an actor, Ruth Handler, who's the creator of Barbara. I did wonder, yeah. She delivers a line and says Something to the effect of Mothers need to stand back so that as their daughters grow and achieve their goals, they can turn back and see And everything in me hated that. I thought One, why would any young girl want to be the person who stands back so that someone else can go ahead in in in in their family. And I thought that's not the example I set for my daughter. My life doesn't stop so that my children can succeed. My my life keeps going to show an example to my children of what success and ambition and intelligence and integrity looks like. Um standing on the shoulders of giants, not being the passive uh you know, spectator as you watch someone else doing what you can't do now that you're a mom. Right. And so it was just understanding that Moving away from that toxic idea of from women who compete with their daughters. and going the other direction of these women who think that their entire life now ends so that their daughters can take off. And I thought what kind of endorsement is that for family and And everything. So Would you like to speak to the opening? Why don't you describe it? Because I to be honest with you, I'm I was watching the opening, but I missed some of that significance because I just didn't know what it was all about. Yeah, okay. There's a line in there that really bogged it. Right. So the opening The opening scene, I think they also use this for the trailer for those who have seen it is Um a little bit of a parody of a very famous scene from Space Odyssey. It is when these so the scene opens, it's a it's a dry, dirty planet, and you've got little girls dressed in different shades of brown. They're all play different domestic roles. One of the girls is pretending to iron, another girl is kind of rocking her ugly doll baby, and um and then all of a sudden they see Barbie standing there, shiny, pretty, amazing. And they all just start going nuts, these little girls. They're like liberation and one of them even starts smashing her doll on the ground because that is what one of the apes do in Space Odyssey. And so the entire idea is Domestic life is brown, beige oppressive. Barbie is glitzy. Pretty fun freedom. And they also say uh you know they would uh play these mother roles, but that's only fun for so long. Just ask your mother. And it's this idea of yeah, your mom probably's like, yay, let's have kids. And then after, you know, X amount of time she's like, Okay, this isn't fun anymore. Um but can we contrast that with the final scene though? Because I I did pick up on that. The very final scene in the movie after after the whole gynecologist thing was a song that's talking about what is your purpose uh and uh what gives you meaning and it's a whole montage of family. of having babies and raising families and going to barbecues with friends. And I thought that that was a really interesting juxtaposition that they actually put it was almost like with the words in the song, this is what actually brings meaning is family. And so I haven't heard anybody else talking about that. I must have uh Not seen that. So before I wish we could talk about this so much more, maybe Frank will let us do it again. But we're tak we're making the most of the time that we have. Um, in terms of the messaging that we're seeing sent to our little girls, the messaging you're s seeing in the media and things like that, in terms of What what it means to be a woman today and how that contrasts with the biblical idea of of being a woman and how you've wrestled with being a female voice speaking out Um and yet a lot of people would say that's not your place. Um I think we all get that. We all get that. Um what what are your thoughts on that? Wha what's kind of a message that you would love your daughter to know and other daughters to know about Based on what you're hearing here of what You know, Hollywood and 'cause that's just a small snippet of what of the general messaging we keep seeing. How would you respond to that idea of you do have a voice, you do have liberation, but this is but it doesn't look like that. This is what it looks like. Can you give just a couple of thoughts on it? Well kind of what you just said. You know, I mean I didn't see the movie. Me, Natasha didn't. And um but you know, I've heard all these reviews about it, you know, and I have a thirteen year old, she's almost thirteen. You know how you round up. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so um One thing that I do is I will watch these things with her. Mm-hmm. And we'll discuss it. Yeah. And 'cause I don't I don't I don't like sheltering her. 'Cause it's like a there's a saying that you don't pave the road for your child, you pave your child for the road. Mm. 'Cause you can't always They're gonna go and she's gonna see the stuff. And I can't stop that from happening. So I prepare her. Mm-hmm. And one of the things that I always tell her is that, you know, right now in our country, there is this going on where there's this, you know, you have Barbie movie talking about like this imaginary thing problem. However, there's some underlying things that maybe there are problems, all right? Like we're all moms. And we understand That there's differences between how we parent. But there's also like, okay, I feel like I remember one time having to talk to my husband about Stepping it up. Because it's like there's an element of work that goes into parenting. But Um that's the point. I think that that is the absolute point of having a family and struggling with children, is that it matures you. Right. And the are you talking about the compliment complementary nature of Exactly. Mother and father. Because If you don't have that, and I can't remember some somebody brilliant pointed this out just about society. Probably me. In society in general, though, maybe it was Frank in his book. Maybe that's why it's fresh in my head. Um is you can't have a society that flourishes without mature men. How do you mature them? You marry them, give them kids, struggle and draw those things out of yourself. Yes. And you grow. And so these are the kinds of concepts that I don't think a movie like this evening It can't it can't fathom the benefits of self sacrifice for someone else. Yeah. Exactly. Yes, you did that very well. Thank you. I do have a question though. So one thing I've always wondered about movies like this is Um you know that saying, you know, like going go woke go broke kind of thing. Yeah. It's kind of woke. Why did this one take off, though? Like why do you think that this one, you know? I don't think it's fully woke because I really think that they showed the damaging things of feminism as well when it showed Barbie suddenly realizing, you know, she doesn't you know, when he uh Ken took over her house, they don't have jobs, all of a sudden she realizes Well, where did you used to sleep? And she that's one of the places where she gets the tear. She realizes and and then she has this flashback of Ken standing outside waiting for attention and her saying, every night is girls' night. And she's realizing all the things that she hated about the real world were exactly what she had done to Ken this entire time. And then they do it again though. I was gonna say I'm gonna go as well. Yeah. Oh there's a little bit of a little bit of sometimes. So Melissa's runoff, she's gonna give her excellent talk on New Age, which is a book that she's working on. So all of you listeners, I want you to keep an ear. to the ground for when that emerges. publishing the book publishing business is a slow process. So by the time it comes out, you probably would have forgot about this shout out, but I'm giving it to you anyway because she's a lady to watch. So Natasha, you're still here with us and you have a lot of excellent insights on all kinds of things. I know you haven't seen the film. But that doesn't stop you from being able to make a comment on some of these recurring themes that we're seeing not just in the film, but everywhere. So Please, what some of the um points that we've made and I uh ideologies we've identified. What what are your thoughts? What what stands out to you? What's something you want to speak on? Like you said, I haven't seen the movie, but just hearing this conversation, which I've enjoyed so much, by the way, just hearing something about the movie, I want to go see it now. I just haven't had the chance to yet. I want to make this a five part series now. Just keep it going. Go ahead. But I I keep hearing kind of this idea about freedom and it seems like that's really the ongoing uh idea today is that everyone wants their freedom. They want their freedom to have the authority of themselves, like we often talk about. They want the freedom to be anyone that they want to be and do anything that they want to do. And that's why you see so many books that are very popular, best selling books that are telling women, hey Go be your best self. Go live your best life now. And you see women who are leaving their families to do this, going to marry someone else, entering same-sex relationships. You see all of these things going on in culture because that is now this top priority is being free, being liberated. And so that's kind of what I'm hearing you guys talk about that I see in culture so much. And as Christians, we have to remember that. Freedom, true freedom, isn't just uh the the ability to do anything that you wanna do. It is the freedom to do what you ought to do. It is the freedom to be who you ought to be in Christ, who God has designed us to be. And that is a completely different view than what something like this would put forth that you need to be free to do whatever you want to do, to be whoever you want to be. Very different views. And so the Bible would have a very different view of motherhood and what it means to be free, to be free to fulfill the the Bible's commands, to be free to go out and be fruitful and multiply, to raise fruit. families that this is a good thing. Hollywood especially loves to show that you know women need to be empower through things like abortion. I mean how many times have we heard a celebrity stand up and say, you know, I am happy today, I am able to do what I'm doing and to be who I want to be and have the career that I have. because I had an abortion several years ago. And all I hear from that is you're telling me you couldn't have done it with a baby. Right. H w that's a very limiting a very limiting mentality. It's more important to be freed from the constraints of motherhood while killing an innocent human being. That was more important to that person than to supposedly be held back. Mm-hmm. And yet I think couldn't you have believed in yourself enough to say, I will say I will keep my baby and I will achieve. Listen, there's a number of topics in this film. The fact that we have a male that is hired to play one of the Barbies and that's something that we haven't had time to get into. There's um a a million other topics that we would love to dive into. But for those who are asking the ultimate question, is this a woke movie? Should I go? Should I let my daughter go? Um, Elisa, what would what's your answer to that? Because we all I know, audience, we like a black and white answer. Most things in life are not that clean and simple. So I wanna hear your takeaway from it. I certainly wouldn't discourage any adult from going to see it. Uh I think that it's we need to be engaging with the things in culture and thinking them through and analyzing as far as kids go, I think it's gonna depend on your kids' age and maturity level. So it's a movie I will see with my daughter because I've really prepared her for a long time for these types of discussions and to analyze and think through things and That was largely, you know, from the time that we worked on that first Mama Bear Apologetics book. I've I've really been intentionally doing that with her. So I will definitely watch this with her and we'll pause and have discussions. Maybe wait till it comes to streaming so we can pause it and say, let's just chat about this for a moment. Uh, but there may be uh you know, I I would recommend if if there's a parent out there that you have a child that's really being swayed by a lot of this stuff, maybe you press the pause button on it for now. Uh, and start preparing your child to think through these topics maybe in a more simple way, because this movie is very, very Even we can't agree on it. So it's very subtle. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We can agree that there's a lot of nuance. It's very nuanced. And so I think that it it's it's actually, you know, very complicated the way that they sneak things in and then then the mixed messages, the confusing messages, the hypocrisy. A lot of that. So Do you think the movie is, you know, to use the word woke, I mean that's such a generalization. An overused word. I I had heard that, that it was woke and I would describe it more as just squarely feminist. Right? Woke would in encounter a lot or in encapsulate a lot of other things. Uh there is the trans Barbie, of course that would be in the woke uh umbrella. But I think it's just really for me, it was a a meant to be a persuasive parable for feminism, modern feminism. Right. So I would want to encourage parents to prepare your kids to en engage with that if you think they're ready. And the power of those m that messaging, as I think all of us saw was as they're delivering delivering their m monologues, which were really just these endless speeches, you know Which was not subtly inserted into the film. It drew you out because they did hit points of truth. They hit points of truth. But I I would I would also like to say you need to remind yourself that as you're listening to this, especially the monologue by uh America Ferreira that how hard it is to be a woman, but it's only that hard if you're taking all your cues from culture. Exactly. That when you uh it's like if you it's like she really did place culture in people's opinions of how you're supposed to be, that was her authority. Yes. And she kept trying to obey her authority culture and it was really hard to obey her authority culture. And these are all the mixed messages that her authority culture is giving him. And I'm like, you know what, it's like I can understand some of those feelings, but I can't relate because that's not where I get my cues. That's right. That's not where I get my value from, exactly. Exactly. So I know you don't have children, but you love children, you you're with children, you you have children in your life. What what would you say to the moms listening? I would say this is more of a girls' night out where you just wanna uh you know be ridiculous, see some you know, see some kins beating each other with lacrostics and just being kinda silly. Um I don't think this is the movie where you want to introduce your daughter to the concept of patriarchy. I think if if your daughter is already aware of the patriarchy and you've already discussed it, yeah, sure, you can take her along and again have really great conversations 'cause Um I can't remember what it was that uh I think it was pavement that um that uh Melissa said, but something that Amy, one of my mama bears, says that uh you don't uh worldproof your you don't child proof the world, you worldproof your child. And that she's actually looked at r research about girls that make good decisions. And it's not the moms who protect them from all these things. It's the moms who talk through these issues that the daughters actually go on to make better decisions. And so I think any time we have something that's really natural and really organic in culture. And especially something that like this, that is getting such a huge response from all different sides. This this is an opportunity to participate kind of in culture and be able to speak through it. I even had the opportunity while I was waiting line to get popcorn, um, some girl that was in front of me, she was standing by herself waiting for the Barbie movie. I was standing in front of uh we're we were both waiting for someone that was coming. And I actually talked to her because all her people had all loved it, and I was like, Well, a lot of the people I know. are talking about the way it portrays men. So we had this long conversation about the way it portrays men. And so this is uh John had mentioned this before and I've done a talk on this before. C. S Lis talks about how art steals past watchful dragons, in the sense that watchful dragons are those things where someone's like, I know you're trying to teach me a lesson. I know you're trying to sneak in Christianity. I've got that watchful dragon that is gonna prevent anything from coming in. But art has a way of sneaking past that. And so if you can have your daughter be able to intelligently engage and point out things and it doesn't even have to be like she just, you know, bashing on something. It could be, you know, like we talk about putting a pebble in the shoe. Well have you considered about the way that This portrays men. Do you think this accurately portrays men? Hey, that's a great conversation that literally 13 year old girls can have. Um and so if from that perspective, as long as you have a daughter who's willing to engage, who's ready to engage, and this isn't her first exposure. with patriarchy, then uh that would be a good thing. And also to be aware of, I think Alisa you said there's a lot of contradictory messages, which is why I think there's so much nuance. You have the beginning scene that's very much anti-mother, and I would say the final scene where it's talking the song about purpose and what you know all that. And it has this montage of pictures of family and babies. It's like these two completely opposite messages. Or it shows how evil guys are, but you also look at how Barbie world is structured, where it's horrible for the kins. Right. So you do have a lot of like it's like corrective it's like truth and correctives all at the same time, but they're kind of probably hoping They're gonna come away from this with the overarching message that they're wanting, but they put just enough. little peppered and sprinkled opposite messages in there so that those who want to see those opposite messages can. That's that's a great way to put it. It's um here's one option, but then do what we say, not what we do. There's there's one message but then there's an underlying but that's not really what our collective uh theme is. So yeah, I I have three little girls. None of them are ready to see this movie. They're eight and under. Um but if they were a little bit older, I would I would let my daughter go. If she had an interest in it, she may not, um, but it it would be with me. And um really t my my request or hope for all the moms out there is to do the hard work that honestly all of us are too tired to do. We get it and that's the critical thinking piece. So I think most moms are either going to say, No, it's woke, we're not watching it. You're not watching it and um that can Create a rebellion and eventually see it in here. Exactly. And you're putting a gap between you and your child that doesn't need to be there, or they're gonna take the other road and say, hey, it's just fun. It's like let's just everybody lighten up, let's just watch it. I say go down the middle if this is something suitable for your child. Keep in mind it is a P G thirteen film. Um go along, go with her, and just do the hard work that means hey, let's just think about some of the messages that we got out of that. Yes, it was fun, but but also what were they really saying? Plan in your discussion time after it. If you have a daughter that doesn't drive, you know what, you've got a captive audience for however long you wanna drive after that movie. Or if you say, We're gonna go get ice cream and we're specifically gonna talk about this, plan in that time when it's fresh on their minds to actually discuss this. And it I mean, that's gonna be one of those things that th they're gonna be noodling on on it for a while and you want them to be able to be able to Have your voice in there with the mix. That's really good because the driving is a good idea too, 'cause often like with teenagers, they don't want to just Yeah, moms. Oh, yeah, they don't the I also I'm way to ruin an experience mind. Why do we have to analyze everything? Well you know, when you're not staring at each other. I mean everybody just kinda chats when they're in the car on the way back from something Utilize that time. Yeah. It sounds like there are so many different messages that are going on in this movie that if you have a child who maybe doesn't want to have these kinds of conversations, you could legitimately ask, Wow, you know, it seemed like there's a lot going on in that movie. I'm still trying to figure out and process what the main message is. What do you think the the filmmakers were trying to do? And a question like that can get them talking when if you were to just sit down and say, We're gonna talk about the movie, they might shut down. Because the older kids get, the harder that is to do. But in this case it's a really easy question to ask. What do you think the main message is there? Cause I'm still trying to figure it out. Yeah. Help mom out. Yeah. From a creative perspective, I'll say I love Barbie World. I hated the ideology of it, but I loved the construct of it. And I think I think they did a great job. I agree. I think Ryan and Margot Robby did a phenomenal job with the acting. They did not have an easy task to make either of those characters super likable and relatable. Um The writers did save the script by inserting enough funny quips in there that really were genuine laugh out loud moments. But the underlying for me, the underlying ideology was It couldn't support itself, though it desperately tried to. And those are my thoughts and the thoughts of some really smart ladies in this room, much brighter than me. Thanks so much for joining us and I look forward to having these ladies back for our next conversation.