Leadership Lessons and Future Outlook

Hello and welcome to Inside Briefing, the podcast from the Institute for Government. My name is Matthew Fre ight, a senior researcher on our Devolution team. I'm delighted to welcome you to this podcast considering what are the implications of the May 2026 elections for local government reorganisation. This is part of our Making a Success of Local Government Reorganization series brought to you in partnership with Grant Thornton. I'm delighted to be joined by an expert panel to discuss this topic. They are Akash Pound Programme, Director for Devolution at the IFG. Hi Matthew. Vicki Elliott, IFG Academy Director. Morning Matthew. Ed Hammond, Director at Grant Thornton. Hi Matthew. And Heather Jameson, editor at MJ. Hello. We will come on to reflect on the 7th of May election results shortly, but first I've been travelling across areas undergoing local government reorganisation . Ahead of the May 2026 elections, I visited three areas at different stages of the LGR cycle and different stages of the electoral cycle, Surrey, Essex and Kent, to hear the perspectives of decision makers on what these elections mean for the delivery of local government reorganiz ation . We've been interviewing leaders from Surrey, the most advanced area on the government's LGR timetable. Last October, the government announced its decision to split Surrey in two, with so-called shadow elections for the new East and West Surrey councils taking place on the 7th of May. These elections will appoint councillors who will work alongside existing councils to prepare the new unitary authorities for going live in 2027? I've been finding out what other areas can learn from Surrey's journey. I started by talking with Tim Oliver, Conservative Leader of the outgoing Surrey County Council, who set the scene? So uh Surrey is in the first wave and the only one in the first wave following the the publication of the white paper in that we we started out on this process, all of us, uh on the basis that the government's priority was devolution and to achieve mayors across the country in all of those areas that wanted mayors. It was very clear though at the beginning that we would have to have at least two unitary councils to enable us to go forward in this process. Tim also reflected on the preparations underway in Surrey as shadow elections are If that's what they wish to do. Looking at the list of candidates, it's quite clear that there'll be only a limited number of whatever political party, but only a very limited number that will have experience of county council services looks to be as if there will be lots of newly elected members who will have little experience. So we will offer whatever help and support they want. You know, it's only we're only talking from May until March, it's a very short period of time if you haven't had a you know senior role in a in a in an upper tier authority to really get your head around particularly the the the people services, the children services When asked what his key advice for other areas earlier in the LGR journey, he said. The best thing you could do is try and get consensus locally as much as you possibly can, because I think if you go to government with a sort of an agreed position, you're more likely to get that supported or or not amended. I mean I think I think we have to constantly remind ourselves that this is what is in the long-term best interests of our residents. I also spoke with Mary Roberts Woods, Chief Executive of Rygate and Banstead District Council, soon to form part of East Surrey, who outlined how the conversation has changed in the past six months. We had our decision uh late October, and you'll know the time scale that we're we're operating in here in Surrey. So, you know, very quickly the conversation had to shift from we've got competing submissions to right now we're all part of the same team who's going to get behind and implement this and you know that's challenging moving from people having differing views and in a political context that's that's always quite challenging. Making sure we are able to have everything prepared for those 1 62 new counsellors we will have across the two patches following the count on the 8th of May. So, you know, talking about anything from sort of that housekeeping piece of work through to some quite comprehensive inductions and then preparing for the inaugural meetings, which is a not insignificant piece of work because there are certain things that they have to take decisions on at those inaugural meetings. And those inaugural meetings have to happen within a very short period of time of the outcome of the elections. Her advice for areas undergoing local government reorganisation. While all this is going on, your workforce are still doing the amazing things that they do on a daily basis, and local government is built on people going over and above. And I think you know it's really important not to take the eye off the ball about how much and in what way you are communicating with your colleagues and how important those messages are. And as soon as you have a decision and you start implementation, how consistent those messages are across the you know the entire patch, but also recognize and give time and space for the fact that people within your organisation in a way are grieving the loss of their organization that they work for, which very much, you know they, for many years have associated with their identity. That's okay. It's okay to say that out loud. And it's I think really important to find ways to celebrate. And um something we're doing, you know, with staff is around how do we end our organisation well In the background you can hear the sound of Chelmsford Cathedral, and I am here to speak to Councillor Stephen Robinson, leader of Chelmsford City Council , a district council in Essex, he is also a county councillor and up for re election in May. As one of the areas on the devolution priority program, Essex is on an accelerated LGR timetable with, the governmenting recently publish its LGR decisions, which will create five unitary authorities in the area in 2028. As a local Liberal Democrat leader, we discussed his perspective on LGR now that the government has set out its decision on Obviously the decision has reduced the uncertainty. The issue now for the most senior people in all of the councils is they are going to have to apply for new jobs in late 2027, early 2028, and that is obviously going to be disruptive. I think some staff would have left if it had been the three unitary propos al. So to that extent, there's slightly now slightly less uncertainty. But we have started bringing teams together and have been for the last few months, actually, before the decision, we were already documenting all the processes. So we know, for example, there are 600 different digital systems in Essex. Stephen talked about some of the challenges ahead. One of the big concerns I have about LGR is the government seems to think that this is going to solve financial problems and it very clearly isn't. I'm very proud of the bid that we put together, that's ten of us in Essex, for the five unit free proposal. We work very closely with organisations like People 2 and Grant Thornton to come up with some detailed analysis on the costs, the unit costs of delivering adults and children. So those are obviously the two big services. And we came to the conclusion that actually with the people two analysis of all the areas that had gone through LGR recently, that 250,000 to 350,000 population seemed to be the optimum size for effective and efficient delivery of services. Fundamentally, local government finance as a whole is not sustainable. It's not a particular structure that is less sustainable than another. twenty six May elections. Now we've got an election that's on right now which will only have a two year term and there could be a lot of new people get elected for a council that hasn't much hasn't got much of life span and before they've even worked out what their job is as a councillor, they'll be in the reorganisation process. So I mean the election shouldn't have been cancelled this last year, so they really did need to go ahead this year. It wasn't credible that the county council should have its life extended for three years. But because 2021 was a long, long time ago in a different world, the public are entitled to have their say. But it's going to be it it's going to be disruptive and after the seventh of May there's going to be an awful lot of new counsellors who have to learn and also it's interesting to see what their attitude to LGR generally will be. We also talked about what the implications could be if a new set of leaders come in following the May elections with a new vision for Essex. There is a a huge risk that just generally having new people who don't know what's don't know what local government is is a risk um and more specifically potentially active hostility to the process uh and that that will be a distraction and as I was saying uh a few minutes ago, it's a waste of time and money to consider challenging the process. Whether we like it or not, and broadly I don't. Central government has substantial power, the ministers have a lot of individual power, they can direct that things shall happen. And they seem intent on directing that it shall happen. That there'll be a vote if once a vote has gone through in Parliament this autumn , there the county council will be under a legal obligation to cooperate with the transition process, and so it'll be ridiculous if the new leadership is trying to frustrate that. I also spoke with Kevin Bentley, who at the time of recording is Conservative leader of Essex County Council and up for reelection this year. I started by getting his view on the LGR decision in Essex. I think after fifty years of a two-tier system, which we currently have in Essex, it's time for a rethink about how we deliver services for the public. This starts and ends with the public. And I was very clear that we do nothing that's detrimental to the public and the only reason for doing this to improve their services. And if you have a business plan that's 50 years old and you haven't changed it at all, then things start to get a bit outdated in the way you work. So now is the time to have a bit of a rethink. Modern technology means we deliver services uh much faster and quicker, but the systems we have with duplication of many of those services and coordination can be difficult, um, then you end up not being as efficient as you can be. And that's what we need to do. We need to deliver public service, and public services should be done in a very efficient way. And with local government elections underway. Does LGR cut three People who know about it, who read about it, might ask questions. It's rarely raised with me. Some people have had it, I said on the dossier, but not many. And that's because again, people quite rightly are concerned about the services they receive. And if you start talking to it about local government organization, there's one or two reactionary. Otherwise I'll say, well, you know, really, do I care? Or yes, I do care. And what what does it mean for my council? Do I lose my local council? You get a bit of that. Kevin also reflected on whether these elections could be disruptive for LGR. I don't think it has a dramatic impact, other than of course new councils will come in, by the very nature that you get a uh people retiring from councils, and Essex is usually about a third of the councils, and that's the case this time. Um, so new people need to come in and understand in a very complex area and don't have a lot of time to get up to speed on that, but they will, and we've got professional officers make that happen. So I don't think the impact will be huge from that point of view because the work is underway. The only danger would be is someone trying to dismantle or disrupt that work because that would not be in the interests of the public of Essex, both now and in the future. Welcome aboard this southeastern service to Maidstone East. The next station is Maidstone East . It is mid-afternoon on an overcast Tuesday and I'm on the train to Maidstone to interview Lyndon Kenkarin, Reform UK leader of Kent County Council. Following the May 2025 elections which saw control of the council switch to Reform UK, Kent has become the party's flagship authority. On taking office, the new administration inherited the local government reorganization plans drawn up by the previous Conservative administration and had until only September to submit its formal proposals for the new unitary authorities. With the exception of district council elections underway in Tunbridge Wells, there are no elections in Kent, but the area is still waiting on a decision on its LGR boundaries. Almost a year on, I'm here to see how the new administration is getting on with the challenges of LGR Lyndon shared her advice to other new leaders entering new offices for the first time. There's no time to prepare, there's no nice introductory, you know, induction week of meetings with people or cosy chats with colleagu es, you are leading that council. It's enormous, I would say, for a brand new administration like ours. Um, we we we've swept away twenty-eight years of conservative control . The organisation of Kent County Council, through no fault of its own, simply wasn't equipped to deal with that level of administrative change. Everybody was struggling to get up to speed, not just us, but our officers as well. The system, I mean She also shared her refle ctions on how she has navigated the complexities of LGR. To have handed to me the problem of LGR that had been started by my predecessors, the Conservatives, and it was now my problem to deal with my, my my journey to to jump on. Um it was a it was I would say it was an impossible task really, but I had no choice. And when you've got no choice about something, you've just got to roll up your sleeves and get stuck in. So that's what I did. Who in their right mind would want to carve up Kent into small unitary authorities and basically break apart this beautiful, great historic county of ours in the name of structural betterment, you know, structural reorganisation. Now I'm a big fan of making things better, but as soon as I looked at the plans, I thought this is not the right way, this is completely wrong. And then I looked at the cost , which nobody else seems to have looked at before, and you know, I I felt sort of a cold terror creeping over me because the costs of what was being proposed ran into their millions and millions and millions. Lyndon was also critical of the government's approach to delivering local government reorganization. They've done things to Essex, Norfolk, Suffolk, that everyone's just kind of raising their eyebrows and thinking, what? They've broken their own rules. You know, they gave us these rules about population size, all the rest of it, you know, for for for for designing the new unit trees. They've broken all their own rules by what they've done to those counties. So now the government's facing a whole load of judicial reviews, legal actions, a lot of pushback from the people quite rightly in those counties who are saying, Well, look, you haven't stuck to the plan. What is going on ? So I almost dread to think what they're going to do to us in July or what they're going to say. I always thought that Kent would be too big and unwieldy and difficult for the government, because Kent is a unique county. We don't fit neatly into a preconceived model or box like other counties might. I think it's a very good thing and has witnessed shifts in the political composition of the Kent and Med way area, most notably following the twenty twenty five elections. Most politically diverse ever. You got Labour, Lib Dem, Green, Conservative, Independent, and of course, most recently Reform UK. Actually, on the whole, although we don't agree on everything, of course, but we disagree agreeably, and we recognize that the greater outcome for more resources for our community, for the ability to drive positive change, to recognize that we He also shared his thoughts on how relationships changed after the arrival of new leaders. Now of course I have to say that the the relationship did change last May. It would be naive to say otherwise and and the leader of Kent County Council will speak for herself, but um I think even with that change , uh on the whole, the kind of collective force of the fourteen of us on this issue continues to be pretty strong. Although she has shared her concerns around LGR. I don't agree with those concerns, but she has shared those. So what was his advice on how to reach out and build bridges following an election? So I think it's about open and honest dialogue. I think it's about no surprises. I think that's wherever that's practically possible. Uh offices are key in this. You know, si you know, politicians will change, but the civil the the civil service or officers in local government terms will remain the same. So they've got a pretty key role in this. And again of course they are there to support the administration in delivering their outcomes but absolutely they would have been part of conversations. So I think it's about reaching out, even to those perhaps who don't wear the same rosette as you. Uh, if they engage or not, that's a different matter. But I think it's a good thing to reach out. And if you are that new person with that new Rosette, again, I appreciate entirely you'll want to get on with running your council. But no um no council is an island with the exception of the Isle of Wight. Vince's final thoughts on local government reorganization. From a Kent and Medway perspective, this ultimately is about making sure we deliver better services for the one point nine million people who live here So we've heard the perspectives of local authority decision makers recorded ahead of election day. Turning now to the results, what do they mean for LGR? We are also recording this almost a week after the seventh of May elections, and incidentally for the record, one of our interviewees, Kevin Bentley, lost his seat. Akas h, could you walk us through some of the high level results from the local elections? Sure. I mean I think that the the headlines are are are pretty well known by now in terms of who were the winners and who were the losers. I mean Labour lost around fifteen hundred councillors across England, lost control of 38 councils and they made losses in a number of directions, but reforms certainly were the biggest winners and and took control of 14 new councils outright. Lots of places fell into no overall control and and negotiations will be underway about how to form minority or coalition administrations in in lots of places. So the exact map of political control is is still taking shape a bit. But I think you know in terms of the effects of those results on LGR, I mean there's different levels we can look at it at. I mean obviously big unfolding story here in Westminster where we're recording is about the impact of the poor results for Labour on the government. And that's a much bigger story than we'll be covering in this podcast, of course. But you know, that may well have an effect on the government's ability, its political capital, its will to press ahead with quite contentious reform proposals in in lots of places. There might be a reshuffle, there might be a change right at the top. Who knows? I mean that that does cre put a bit of uncertainty into this process as well as you know more generally what what's going to happen with the with the government across all policy areas. So that's you know one side of it to watch. I mean meanwhile at the local level the particular position taken by local leaders doesn't always line up with with party politics. I mean I think we've we've seen that already with local leaders in some cases taking different lines even even when they're from the same party. So that there's not necessarily going to be a really neat pattern. I mean I think the rise of reform though and the loss of lots of Labour leaders, lots of allies of the government, presumably is going to make things more difficult in lots of places. And we know, for example, in in Essex, you mentioned the Conservative leader and many of his most of his colleagues having lost out to reform. That's going to be a tricky one. I mean, Nigel Farage, that's his home territory. He said he opposes LGR. There's going to be an attempt to to frustrate the uh the decision taken by government to to break up Essex. Lots of already reform -led county councils are in favour of single county uh unitary model, which doesn't seem to be the way the government's going based on the decisions it's taken already. So we may well see a much more tense relationship between local leaders and and and government as as they press ahead. But on the other hand, as one as you one of your interviewees said, we know the legal position means that ministers can push through LGR changes based on boundaries they decide. And it will be messy if they're doing so in the face of outright local resistance. But legally speaking, the power does rest with ministers if they feel they have the political capital to use it. Yes. And I think that one of the implications of what you're saying as well is there's a large number of new councillors, sometimes with relatively little background in local administration. So they're going to be taking charge on day one having to take on local government organization delivery. From what we were hearing, there may also be an appetite to reopen that question of LGR boundar ies and as you were alluding to, there may be a lot of opposition to the plans in their current form. So Ed, turning to you, um what do you think are going to be some of the implications of how this is then delivered locally. Aaron Powell I think as we head into the first few weeks of new administrations for many councils, I think the the issue is one of uncertainty really around how new administrations in many areas are going to want to take this forward. The level of appetite for bringing meaningful and serious opposition to this in some areas and doing that alongside you administration simply trying to take charge and trying to understand what are our priorities, what are we trying to achieve? What are we trying to do ? Because for some, LGR will be seen as a barrier to delivering change and delivering the services that local people want and need. For some people, it will be seen as an enabler. And those perceptions don't quite split down party lines, but they they will in s in some respects do so. So I think that mindset will colour everything about what councillors and new leadership and existing leadership of councils are are going to be doing over the coming weeks and months. I think there is a worry that councils who are being dragged into this now, kicking and screaming, and councils that have changed colour in the last week finding themselves saddled, I suppose as they will see it with a uh a prospectus for structural change with which they're not entirely comfortable or happy. That's going to make the process much more difficult to deliver when you've not got the buy-in, when you've not got the ownership. Designing systems that are going to make LGR deliver effectively are going to be more challenging. And it's going to be challenging for council officers as well to manage that dynamic of having obligations that you've got to perform as a senior officer, duties of which you have to have responsibility alongside a political administration that might be perhaps not obstructive, but might be trying to find ways of limiting, uh reducing and reopening, as you've put it, the sort of th questions which up until last week we might have thought have largely been settled on structure in some areas. Aaron Powell As you say there could be a route for sort of a non-constructive approach in this. What what do you think that would sort of look like I mean judicial review's been mentioned. I I I mean, I I'm not a lawyer, I should stress, and uh certainly am in no position to offer you know advice or or or commentary on on the legal mechanics of this, but you do have to look back at uh other examples of where JR has been attempted in previous reorganization and the extent to which that has succeeded or not, and generally speaking it hasn't. But there are other ways to obstruct. I mean, and I should stress this this is is this is yeah, local democracy. You know, uh people have been elected who are who are against these moves, and that may well reflect a dissatisfaction on the part of local people with government direction on on a number of issues. I mean you obviously it's difficult to read too much into to what extent does this reflect a kind of grounds for the public opinion about LGR? Probably not. Um but uh but yeah, I mean it it's it's a obstruction can be political, it can be organizational in nature as well. You can have a situation where counsellors will be disinclined to be proactive, let's say, about the measures they need to undertake in order to prepare. That comment that one of your interviewees said about ending well is really, really important. And there is a duty incumbent on councillors in those councils that are going to be abolished in a couple of years' time to think what do we need to do in order to tie services off to manage that safe and legal trans ition. If councillors want to be obstructive, they will think, well, you know, why why do we want to think about the ways in which we can happily close ourselves off? Surely we want to fight things, we want to try and push those decisions further down the road. I think that presents great danger for the process because transition is a complex, difficult process, kind of fought with risk and challenge. And to engage with it in a way that might be seen, well, let's try and push back against this as much as we can, rather than let's try and facilitate a legal process which is underway, which is happening, is is is potentially dangerous. Yeah, I mean just on the the potential for judicial review, I mean I think um likewise not a lawyer, but from what I've read on it, I mean I think it's clear that the Secretary of State's decisions so far are clearly you know within their power based on based on based on statute uh statutory provisions. I think. And and there's been reference in one of your interviews to has the government breached its own guidance or the principles it set out, particularly that five hundred thousand rule of thumb for the size of of new authorities. From my understanding, like the the fact that that was stated as a rule of thumb at the s at the start didn't give it any legal force. It's not really likely to be the basis of a successful legal challenge, but that seems to be the argument some places may try to make. Heather, I was struck by the fact that clearly this election has brought in a wave of new councillors and many are going to be unfamiliar with local authorities, the complexities of LGR, we've also heard that maybe the voters don't necessarily resonate with this issue on the door. Indeed, some of these new councillors may not even know their own colleagues yet. What lessons can these councillors draw from the experience of other areas? So let's face it, local government is more than used to having changes of political control. It's it's uh par for the course, isn't it? It's part of the job description. I think what is different this time round is the level. As you say, it's not that it's a change of control. It's people who have never even been counsellors before. And I think that is gonna make a massive, massive difference because they just don't know the procedures, you know, they don't know where to make the tea and coffee. Everything is starting from scratch. So I think it's gonna be interesting. You're also the the political change that you have had this time round and I think it happens quite a lot. You've got people who have come in who are used to opposing, who are used to campaigning, who are not used to governing. And it's incredibly different. And I think y you know, your interview with the um leader of Kent sort of brought some of that to the fore. You know, she talked about the problems of LGR, not this is what's happening, so we're gonna deal with it, what are the opportunities, as a friend of mine is very, very keen of saying the best of things always come to those who make the best of things. Actually, where's the opportunity within this? I'm sort of a I think a little bit more um pessimistic about where we're going in terms of opposition to LGR just for that reason that reform in particular because they're taking uh counties like Essex, I think they're very likely to start opposing and already we've seen the uh leader of Harlow, not um not reform, he's conservative, saying that he's gonna start opposing LGR. I think for me the question is who blinks first? You cannot stand in the way of a government who wants to legislate for something, and if that's the policy and that's what they want to push through, they absolutely can. But on the ground, you can make it very, very difficult. I know that the government has actually baked into the timetable some, extra time for JRs. So they're expecting to be challenged on this. But equally so, I think at the moment, as it stands, we don't know whether there's going to be a change of administration at the national government, but there's certainly going to be some changes to government. How important is this to them? And then the the final thing I would say on it is if you're a reform counselor, yes you might want to come in and oppose reorganisation, but you're probably gonna at this point in time you're probably gonna win the new authorities. How much effort do you want to put into something that doesn't actually resonate with your members of the public that you're dealing with? For me, I would say let it pass and and move on to something that's more important to the public. I was struck in what you were saying about the opportunities that come from LGR and the couple of the interviews that we were listening to where the councillors were really enthusiastic about the new options and the new opportunities for public service reform. And it's, as you say, striking that the current narrative is focused on a lot of the challenges around there. So do you think that that space for discussion about what alternative governance or alternative service delivery looks like has been squeezed. Yeah, I think it's got to be all about transformation. It's this is this is a moment. If you are exploding local government, what do you want to see at the end of it? And again the sorry, I feel like I'm picking on the leader of Kent. The leader of Kent talked about being h an historic county of Kent and well that's great and the history will still live on. But actually , is it fit for purpose at this moment in time? And I think with the speed of technological advances, nothing is fit for purpose at the moment. We all have to change everything. So the the question is not we must keep our historical boundaries because they're historical, it's what can I deliver in the future? Can we do public service reform and deliver services more effectively? What matters to our members of the public and can we serve them better? And all of those things I think are are are the opportunity that comes out of LGR, regardless of whether it's the right or the wrong boundaries. These are if these are the boundaries you're being given, then make the best of them. And I think one of the things that is quite difficult for this new CADA of counsellors is the very short time period in which they're going to be working because obviously as you were saying earlier, you know, some of these people haven't been counsellor before a lot of technical areas to be getting up to speed on and ultimately though you know if that's like a six month lag that's getting into a quarter of the two years that they're actually gonna have before their councils are abolished. What I found interesting in the interview with the leader of Kent was the notion that this is historic change that some of these administrations have baked in ways of working, they've been dealing with the same council political stripe for about twenty years or more and that's a big change to happen locally. It is a big change and that's democracy, isn't it? That's the whole point. It's it's if you've had the same administration for so many years and they're not delivering, actually then it it is down to the public to say hang on, we're not happy with this. I think this election is slightly different because I think no one in local government loves it when the media are talking about what this means for central government. But I think on this election more than any other I've seen, people were voting locally on national issues and even um international issues. And I think if you're coming in and you've got that opportunity, you are a new administration. Again, it's it's another one of these opportunity moments where you can you can utterly shift the dial on on things if you want to, but you have to remember that you are not an opposition now Now, Vicky, from what we've been hearing, leaders face a really demanding in tray. What are the key leadership lessons they should be reflecting on. Well, as you say, really demanding intray. I don't think there's time for lots and lots of leadership lessons. But what I was really struck by listening to the interviews was how much LGR could be seen as about process when actually it's really about people and how much the kind of people side of it came through in those interviews and so if I had two leadership lessons that people should be thinking about uh they would both be to do with people, one about how leaders lead and one about why they lead. And the first one on how that really came through for me was about trust and relationships and if LGR is going to be delivered success successfully or obstructed along the way, it's still going to depend upon trust and relationships, whether that's between members and officers or whether it's between parties of different colours, as we heard about in Kent and other areas where people might have changed the colour of their rosette individually, which can make trust really, really difficult. So I don't I don't underestimate how difficult it can be to have those trusted relationships, but I really think it's the kind of bedrock and fundamental, essential thing to have if you're going to actually make progress. And so I'd really hope that we will see at a time when we've seen increased incivility in public life that people could hold on to the thought about being civil and trying to build those trusted relationships in order to get things done across local government. And there are lots of things that can support people in doing that. So the new members that Heather was talking about will all have member induction. There will be, I think it was Kevin who was talking about the professional officers who've been there for a long time and who will be able to support new officers who perhaps have new councillors who haven't been members before? So all of all of those mechanisms are there to support leaders. I think it can also, if you've got trust, really help morale and staff motivation. So at a time when I think Marie was talking about individual officers maybe thinking about their careers, they may be grieving the end of an organization. If you can build those trusted relationships and showing that you really understand and care about what motivates people that can really help you deliver change and transformation. So that's the kind of how. And then the second thing that really struck me listening to those interviews was about why. And I think that's come up from both Ed and Heather already around when things are busy and you disagree with partners about the way forward, it can be hard to remember why you went into local politics. But I have never met a counsellor or an officer who doesn't really care about making a difference in their local community. And I think if leaders are able to really think about what a difference they can make for residents and that LGR isn't just about the wiring, but can be a real opportunity for a once-in-li-afetime change for delivering public service in a different way, then that can really help as well with the vision about what a difference it will make. And whether you disagree with the people who are around you or not, remembering that personal motivation about why you came into politics in the first place and keeping that at the heart of how you lead, I think will really help in how we see LGR being taken forward as well. And I think one of the things that also came out from the interviews was about people and remembering about the importance of the impact on service users and the voters as well. So I think that's they're definitely things that bind leaders together in these moments. But I mean, as you're saying, there's a clear theme coming through those interviews about the importance of collaboration. Do you think it will be I think it has been difficult for a number of years. Has it ever been easy? I'm not sure. I don't think it's going to get easier, so yes, it will be difficult. But I also think there's an opportunity and I I've spoken with local government leaders who've talked about seeing LGR as an opportunity not only for collaboration in the way I think we heard Vince talk about perhaps surprising collaboration across a wide range of political parties, but also with leaders across wider public services and how LGR and thinking about systems leadership can be real opportunities to think about those partnerships with health leaders or those in education, police, fire, and that there could be an opportunity for a real reset in how place-based leaders hip and systems leadership can happen going forwards. And I think another element of the why that came through was part of the narrative around this has been about transformation driving greater financial resilience, but that is still questioned by the sector. So I suppose really, how do leaders go about juggling these kind of demands alongside those regular business as usual demands. It's that really cliched image, isn't it of like flying the plane whilst building the new plane? And I don't think there's a simple answer to that either. But I do think the answer probably lies again in people and the people around who are more experienced. We heard in some of your interviews offers there um in Surrey, for example, to really share, irrespective of political party, the experience that does exist within the sector. And I hope that there we will see cross party collaboration and willingness to share uh experience of how to do things and good practice, even where there's a change of of colour, for the good of the residents and for the good of the people and communities across the country. Through the interviews was the importance of the relationship between LGR and devolution. Akesh, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about what the implications of the discussion we've had so far for devolution in these areas. Yeah, I mean the devolution LGR processes have been entangled in in public debate and and the way the government um announced them in the first place in perhaps ultimately a bit of an unhelpful way from from from from the government's own perspective, because opposition to one sometimes tends to bleed into opposition to the other rather than kind of weighing up the the the respective merits of each. I mean just to to go back to what we were talking about before the the legal position is different of course for implementation of devolution in that local leaders, local authorities, at least upper tier local authorities, do still have a veto over the creation of new strategic authorities. This is something the government tried to change via their now Devolution Act, Devolution and Community Empowerment Act, but they were forced to to backtrack on that to get the bill through the Lords at the very l latter stages, um the ministerial power of direction as it was called was was dropped from from the bill ultimately. And so that does mean that in some of these places where the com where new combined authorities are due to be created, but have not yet legally been created, including Essex, including Norfolk and Suffolk, on those two places on the devolution priority programme. County council leaders and unitary councils have a veto, and and and I think the the politics in some of those places is quite tricky. We've already seen a a slowdown of progress towards the initial ambition of extending devolution to the whole of England. I think in some of these places it it does it does look quite tricky, yeah, even in those devolution priority programme areas, let alone beyond, and there's lots of lots of parts of England who that that still haven't been touched by devolution. I mean I think, you know, one thing I don't think it is clear precisely what is the reform UK national policy position on male devolution. I can see that playing different ways actually. It's going to be an interesting one to watch because in a lot of these places, based on recent local election results, based on the polls, reform clearly is in quite a good position. If it if an election goes ahead for mayor of Greater Essex, Mayor of Norfolk and Suffolk, if they create new mayoralties elsewhere in uh in the Midlands or Lancashire or somewhere else, that's an opportunity for reform to to to to take some more power at the local and regional level. So maybe the party ultimately decides they do want to support that, even if they press back on, push back on LGR to some extent. Or does Nigel Farage conclude he doesn't want these powerful regional politicians that might be a thorn on his side if and when he ever makes it into number ten? I I'm not quite sure that we know at this point. Ed, given everything you've heard in the discussion so far and as IFG and Grant Thornton are working together on these issues through our making a successive LGR series, what do you see as the key challenges that we should be exploring through our partnership, particularly as we shape the program of events over the upcoming year? Yeah. So I mean, I I think, and not hopefully to kind of repeat what's what others have said, but I think there are sort of, for me, sort of four big kind of points coming out of this conversation. I think first thing for me is the really steep learning curve for everybody here. Now, we've talked about the steep learning curve for new counterlists, but I think there's also a really steep learning curve for existing councill ors and existing senior officers in the sector, understanding LGR, its impact, its implications, um the dynamics around it its operation, not only for their council but for neighbouring authorities as well. It's new for everybody. Obviously that that that's lent additional complexity through the anchoring between this and the and the devolution agenda, of course, as well. So I think there's something for everybody to at the moment to take stock and try and understand, you know, what is our freedom to act, what are our priorities going to be, what's our position going to be here. That leads on to the second point, which is around being really, really clear about what the objectives and incentives are around the LGR agenda as well. So we heard in your recorded segments about you know disagreements I suppose about the the fundamental objectives about the exercise. It's quite right that this is not something which is in in the next couple of years going to save money. The act of LGR itself is not going to result in financial savings. It will result in some marginal savings around senior management and obviously there's going to be a reduction in the number of councillors. But the wider benefits are, as Heather has said, around public service reform, wider transformation. There is going to be a big opportunity around what we call aggregation and disaggregation of services. So after new councils vest, after the new councils come into being, then they will be beginning a process of redesign and transformation of the services that they've inherited. And that means that when we talk about the benefits of LGR, when we talk about the process of LGR, it doesn't really end with that point of new councils vesting and the old ones being abolished. That's kind of when it starts. And then there is a five-four or five year process of transformation, redesign of services. And I think that's really where we think about the incentives, where we think about the objectives, where the the prize is, I suppose, around the ability to completely rethink the way that we are designing delivering services locally in the interests of local people. That at the moment feels quite esoteric and quite a long way away from where we are at the moment. What we're doing through LGR is enabling the arrangements for that work to happen. There's something about a mindset shift there. Third point is about the constraints and the risks and understanding those, the risks around the safe and legal transition that we've mentioned, the risks around political obstruction that we've also mentioned, but also the risks around things like inheritance of financial liabilities. Both Essex and Surrey are faced with uniquely challenging circumstances around councils within those areas that have rather sticky financial situations, if I can put it rather euphemistically. And so for those there is a process of thinking how do we make sure that that doesn't kind of infect the new authorities? So there are significant risk factors . And then the sort of fourth thing, kind of wrapping it all up, is how do we build a sense of collective local ownership over these changes? And that comes again back to the issue of uh of of um of political opposition. The idea of using, as you've said, Vicky, the thing about relationships is really fundamental to all of this. This is all about relationships. It's all about people building partnerships, convening partnerships. And this comes down to issues around, you know, who leads, who follows, who's directing this process, and who kind of feels like they're getting left behind. And that's a a really important thing around how we build a collective sense of place for these new areas as well. Because that's that's part of the issue about feeling a a sense of visceral connection to a certain area is. Well, that area isn't going to go away, but we're going to have to think about how we build a commonality of purpose and thought around what this new area needs and how we work together to deliver it. And the very final point I wanted to make is just a reminder and reflection on the point that you just made around the personal impact of this on people's lives. Obviously, residents and service users will be seeing these changes happening, uncertain and unclear about what the implications are going to be for them, where actually those implications are going to take some years to come to pass. And we've seen that with other previous LGR exercises. The impact on counters themselves, inherent uncertainty around not knowing two or three years down the t line if you're going to still be a member anymore, but also the impact on officers. There are lots of people working to deliver this agenda in positions of great uncertainty, knowing that in a couple of years time their employers are going to exist, knowing they're going to be having to reapply for jobs in a new framework and a new structure. Even LGR programme directors having been appointed to roles finding it extremely personally challenging dealing with the organisational and political dynamics around these changes. I think there's got to be a system, a process for wrapping uh more systematic national support around those individuals and those groups of individuals to ensure that we're able to share, to network, convene conversations Because at the moment it does feel like everybody working in this space is doing it kind of in parallel and kind of doing it on their own because of the politics, because of the dynamics and the the friction around this, it's very difficult for people to come together collaboratively to talk about it, even or particularly in individual areas, because there are some areas where individual councils are loggerheads over the approach. I think there is more that can be done nationally to build that that sense of commonality, that sense amongst officers and members of a joint prospectus and an objective for what's happening in the next two, three years or so. So I'll bring this conversation to a close. It's clear that newly elected councillors face a stark challenge in the months ahead in order to get up to speed with the complexities of LGR and deliver change locally . We'll pay close attention to this in upcoming work as part of our Making a Success of LGR series, delivered in partnership with Grant Thornton. For further information, please head over to the local government reorganization section of the IFG website. Following the recording of this podcast, Essex County Council publicly set out a basis for a judicial review against the government's local government reorganisation decision