Gmail Anniversary and Name Changes

It's time for intelligence machines. Jeff Jarvis is here, Paris Smart Note 2. Our guest, Katie Lee, is the editor in chief of a very interesting new newsletter slash AI site called every dot TO. She says, AI and writing go together. Like Cheese and crackers. We'll also talk about new rules from the governor of California. Fifteen percent of Americans who say, Yeah, I'd work for an AI boss. And the big clawed code leak. All that coming up next on Intelligent Machines. Podcasts you love. From people you trust. This is Twitch. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martinot and Jeff Jarvis, episode 864, recorded Wednesday, April 1st, 2026. Artemis II It's time for intelligines. Hello everybody. This is the show where we talk about AI, robotics. All those smart doodads all around us, let me introduce Paris Martinow? Investigative or journalist at Consumer Reports. Why are you wearing a retro baseball hat? Is it 'cause opening day happened or is just You know I thought about I thought you were gonna ask me about this when I put on the hat. I just haven't brushed my hair. And so I was like I need to wear some sort of hat. But literally as I was logging on, I was like, is it strange to wear a hat while recording a podcast? And I think no, but I don't know. So you'll be the guy. P for podcast? What's the P Maybe that's it, you're the podcast Pittsburgh Pipe. People often ask me, they're like, Oh, are you a Pittsburgh fan? I'm like, No, someone just bought me this hat because it has a P on it. And my name is Paris. Oh, it's the Paris hat. Of course. There you go. Anyway, great to see you as you're trouncing me one more time and cross that cross play. Hey, you thought uh sh you should have considered yourself lucky when I wasn't responding really. That was your time to strategize. Just clobbered me with your last play or two plays ago. Uh also here, Mr. Jeff Jarvis. He is the author of the Gutenberg Parentheses, now in Paperback magazine, and of course the new one, Hot Type, which is on pre-order. Jeff Jarvis.com The story of the line of type. And it is a drama. Of course, the emeritus professor of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York. Ah, but you know what? We have a very special guest today because she discovered Jeff. when he was an unknown unsung blogger. Kate Lee is here. Hi, Kate. It's great to see you. Hi, thanks for having me. Uh at the uh very young age of twenty four, you became uh a literary uh agent Famed for bringing bloggers and this is what this is Early days of blogging, right? In the thousands. Uh uh uh to uh the literary world. Uh, now editor in chief of a very interesting site called every at every dot. T. O. Yes. Which is for every two, I guess. Yes? Yes. Uh great to have you. And I really should should let your discover, your your uh protege, Mr. Jarvis, uh handle this interview because just you're his he's Well, age wise you're his protege, but I uh no. Jeff was known beforehand as a T V critic. Well it's actually it's because of Kate that this show that I came to you, Leo. No, really? How do you well because Kate was my agent. So so I talked to Kate about about books about this technology thing. And originally, the original idea was when I had interviewed or I had heard Mark Zuckerberg. say that uh you should bring elegant organization in people's lives. Kate thought, Well maybe there's a book of that. And I tried to start writing. I thought, uh And then as we're talking, I said this idea of, you know, what would Google do? And that became the book which Kate sold to um uh Harper. Harper. And then it was because of that book that Yu Leo Laporte called me and said, Why don't we do a podcast about This Week in Google. And uh well clearly the guy who wrote What Would Google Do uh know a little bit about it. And then Kate went on to other um I'm fascinated by Kate's career because she went on to other things. uh that tied culture and technology. She was the editorial hire by Ev Williams at Medium. The very first. The very first. Uh and and dealt with a whiplash of Ev's changing ideas every morning. And then uh content at We Work. Which was an effort upon them. And then at um Stripe as the publisher of its book. Uh uh outlet and now at every. And so Kate, I'm I she and I haven't talked about this, but I think it's really interesting to see how you've tried to what you're trying to bring culture to technology or technology to culture one way or the other. How well does do they mix? Uh it's an interesting question, especially now where I feel like Technology is culture in so many ways, and there is uh and technology occupies a place in popular culture more now, uh, perhaps than it ever did. Um I always thought of what I was trying to do was was like I loved media, I love the media world, I love the tech world. Um How do I bridge those in a way that that worked for me that I found, you know, interesting and stimulating and satisfying? Um I think what is, you know, again, where where I I really see it now is and it's not just that it's, you know, in twenty twenty six, but that That you know, technology is culture, and you see uh technology companies Knowing that they have a place and they have an audience, uh, and that they have things that they want to say and feel like they can say and they want to say it to an audience. Um and it's it's been a really it's a really interesting time. Let me ask about Every, because Every didn't it just started out as a as newsletters, right? Mm-hmm. Every was founded in 2020. in the the boomlet of newsletters starting um with Substack and with the pandemic. Um, and it started as um really business and technology writing, uh high quality business and technology writing. And the aspiration was to become really an institution for Really great writing um on these topics. Um it was never sort of scoop driven, it was never about beat reporting, it was about analysis. um commentary and um insights, f first person insights from practitioners and the builders who were who are in tech. At some point there was a little bit of a pivot which must have been controversial. Uh the focus became AI. And your content is AI generated. Well, human plus AI, right? Facilitated, facilitated. Powered by OpenClaw. Oh, wait a minute. That's this is the new product or something. Yeah, that's the latest product. Yeah. Oh, are you on the wait are you on the uh did you get on the wait list? Uh I did not get on the wait list, but I am a subscriber to uh every dot two. Um There are lots of articles, uh chiefly focusing, I think, on kind of A AI use in enterprise. In fact, you have a consulting business. Uh doing that. Yeah. Articles like Build Your Own Bloomberg Terminal with AI. Which is straight. The Bloomberg Terminal out of my dead hands. So The fact that you not only uh have AI ha uh assist, but embrace it and and it's part of your kind of Uh is I think for some kind of shocking. Mm-hmm. That's not journalism. How do your writers feel? Well they must love it, otherwise they wouldn't be there, right? Well it dep it it's it depends. Um and I think it's it's not necessarily one size fits all. I will say we pivoted G AI, um it wasn't At least it initially it was not, you know, a big business strategy. It was just because um our co-founder and CEO, Dan Shipper, who you saw before, uh You know, GPT three came out. And it was mind blowing and he was incredibly fascinated by it. And he is a writer as well as a a CEO and founder and and uh you know, coder. And a podcaster. And podcaster. He wears many hats. And he just decided for himself that he wanted to spend three months going deep on chat GPT. That's just what he wanted to write about. And that's also when we started the podcast the podcast that he Helm's called A AI and I. The initial name of the podcast actually for about I don't know the first six months at least was called How do you use ChatGPT? And it literally was just talking to people. And it was Tyler Cowan and and Jeffre Litt and, you know, an amazing array of of guests, but it was, you know, it was just focused on Chat GPT. Um and that so it really stemmed from a personal a sort of personal obsession and personal interest in like this technology is transformative. I wanna know about it, I wanna understand it, I wanna I wanna know how it works, I wanna and I can see that it's going to have huge implications for how. for for technology and how we all work. Um at the same time, we had also, um, and again, this is before I I joined the company, but we had um basically built our o our first like AI uh AI driven product called Lex, which is an AI word processor. Um, and it was it you know, Dan and our our other other co founder Nathan, they are you know, they are they are not they don't consider themselves engineers. Um, but they they know enough that they could build this product and it became very clear that there was a future in which you could build stuff with AI and they were just able to build it and because every started as a media company. We have built we have a distribution list. We have we have spent years cultivating a list of subscribers. So when it was time to release that product and s to say, hey, who wants to try this out? Get on a wait list. We uh pretty quickly racked up um tens of thousands of of subscribers on that wait list and it became very clear that that was going to be a model going forward. Uh so that's one of the things it's a little confusing 'cause it's it it is articles. Uh-huh. So it's like a it's a newsletter, but it's also a podcast, but it's also products and it's also consulting. Uh-huh. So it's a it's a whole bunch of uh different things. I guess this is maybe the new The new way of uh being. One thing. You have a um so Were the products developed In house for your purposes in house and then released to the audience? Is that the readers? Is that How you did it or Yeah, for the most part the products kind of sprung from An individual itch that you know, that that people internally were feeling. Um initially it was was Lex, which was the word processor. Um I believe the next product was Spiral, which was the which is our writing assistant, which Dan coded out of a on like one of our sort of down weeks at what we call them think weeks, which is where we we don't publish and we Kate is in the uh West Village and uh that's uh the local fire department rushing over to Salt for a stiff. Yeah, sorry about the siren in the background. That's quite alright. Um And then Sparkle was our next one, which is a file an AI file organizer. And again, these kind of sprung out of just individual needs that we and we could prototype them. We did end up then hiring people who, you know, we can't manage all those products ourselves, but they each essentially have one person managing those products. And we have brought people in, um, who do that. Uh and so this is so different from The uh AI product culture I'm used to, which is primarily GitHub, so it would drive you to a GitHub page and it would have some GitHub install instructions written by Claude or open chat GPT or somebody. And and this is Beautifully laid out and it's It's it's like a product. You're obviously not aiming at the AI fanboy here. Um why do you say that? It's a I mean the AI geek code. It's not aimed at geeks. It's aimed at real people, I guess. Oh, for sure. For sure. I mean, I I I think the way that we think of our audience is that Um we really are targeting builders who are on the bleeding edge of AI. And that word builders I know is one that has gotten a lot of play. The Wall Street Journal just did a great article about it. Um, and I think the way that we think about it is, you know, typically or the the connotation is you're an engineer, you're a coder. And sure, that's maybe where it started and certainly where Some these coding these excuse me, these chat tools, these LLMs have really found product market fit between Cloud Code and Codecs. Clearly coding is a really foundational use case. Um but Um But really w what we are observing internally and we're really what we share internally out to our audience is that Pretty much everyone here is a builder in some way. Um, you know, our head of growth has basically like is is all in on Claude Code. He is not an engineer. He is not a coder. He calls himself dumb in that regard, but his h he has automated dashboards and and agents who help him do his job. Um, you know, our basically like our our our our operations person has has has done the same thing, our customer service has done the same thing. So that's really how we think about it. Um, I also think, you know, we are uh when we think about our We think of ourselves as the one subscription you need to stay on the edge of AI. And that includes the ideas, which are the content and the pieces, the podcast. It includes the products. We named a few of them, and it includes trainings, which are consulting, and then we also offer courses and camps to our paid subscribers. So You can we are doing a camp with Notion on Friday and, you know, we've done camps with codex, we do camps on OpenClaw, things like that. Um and I think we're really trying to Uh target those people who are builders and who want to be builders and who ca who are sort of crossing that membrane because Honestly, the way that every operates, I'm can't necessarily say in every possible way, but certainly from a AI native perspective is the way that companies are going to be created and built in the future. Um, and so we feel like we have an opportunity to sort of show what that is. how that works, how we're doing, including, you know, clearly the struggles and all, and bring people along on that journey. So you make and eat the dog food. Yes. Uh uh in inside. And but what also because you're an editor, you're you're a culture person. Um I'm and and Kate and I we hadn't seen each other for far too long. We we ended up on a panel before ghostwriters. Ghostwriters. Believe it or not, there's a ghostwriters association, fairly large. They were fairly frightened by this by these prospects. Well, ghost scary. People who aren't coders but now code. Mm-hmm. As opposed to a Leo who was a coder who now says, Oh my God, this changes my world of coding. You have people who who didn't code who can call themselves idiots at it and then do it. And then you have writers and readers. And I am gonna confess to something. And maybe it's just me, but there's a bias among coders. who are now using these tools that no one else can really use these really can get it. And and so this feels you're saying that coders and techies are being exclusionary? Yeah. Self-obsessed. I know that's shocking. I know. For for white guys, it's just so amazing. I mean, yeah, they've never done that before. Uh uh. So for instance, I mean, uh the first thing I saw when I went to every debt T. O is is your uh kind of your I guess it's a it's a claw bot. It's open claw. It's a plus one. Yeah. Yeah. Uh And I thought, Well, I could just do that myself. So why so uh what's the pitch here? Is it for people who couldn't can't do it themselves or is it What makes this better than just Vib coding your own. Thing. Well, first of all, not everyone is gonna vibe code their own thing. Right um secondly, it can take some time to get them set up. I mean, I'm in a I'm in a daily conversation with my claw in telling training her to do things that I want her to do. Um and I call yes, I call her her her. Um and um And it takes time. It takes time to set that stuff up. It takes it also a huge amount of time. It takes a lot of time. It takes also money to provision it and to these these are these are very expensive. They eat a lot of tokens. Um, and so we are basically doing that on behalf of our subscribers. The other thing is that we are um We are, you know, plus one doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists among our other apps. It exists among our content. So if we can basically you you get a plus one and you are able to be integrated with Cora, which is our email management service. Spiral with writing, sparkle for file organization, monologue for for voice dictation. I just lost I think I just lost track of the last one. Um, but essentially it's an it's an ecosystem. And so your plus one is sort of coming loaded in with um with the every s with the every products and with and we a sen uh um uh ultimately want to be having like every skills that it comes sort of pre loaded into this class. And that's of course the thing that scares uh most people about Open Claw is that it's it's so insecure and they're very worried about not only The insecurity, but how much it's gonna cost. The Spiral Cora Sparkle Monologue and Proof. And then plus one is the new Yes. Proof is also proof is also new. Um but uh yeah, those are the two most recent. How do your how do your writers and editors use AI? Paris is a journalist who writes uh I'm curious what the what the process is like and and what they find useful and not. Yes. Um well first I should just say, um Leo, I think you said a little earlier that uh you may have said that you know, all of our writing is is AI uh or or referred to it in some way. That is that is not the case, but we do use AI in our writing and our editing. Um I will say that it's different for everyone. One thing that's just been really interesting to see is that like everyone has a really different process, even if they're using similar tools. Um people are people just People just go about it really different. Some people write something first, then feed it to spiral, or some people would You know, your your style. Um but it's so it's with a partner. It's yes. We're actually publishing a piece on Monday, I believe, by our writer, Katie Parrot, who um is a writer who's basically like figured out and built these tools herself. and kind of very extensively goes through her process. She's she's written a lot about her process, but but in particular, um you know, I think there there's been a discourse pr recently of, you know, is AI writing real writing? Is it and and she sort of is trying to address it. Um she has a quite an extensive process. She, you know, she starts off with with with always with her with her yeah, with her agent interviewing her. Um she has a panel, Leo, like the panel you referred to with uh Gilfoyle and Dinesh. She has a panel of ten I I don't even know how many, but ten different agents of like David the Sederis is for humor. you know, Hemingway as for Bremity. Um she's named all of them and she's basically h always sort of pressure testing her ideas. Um she's never In the use of AI, we're never just with anything, whether it's writing or or anything else that we do, it's never just like, Oh, it spit this thing out and so now we take it. everything we, you know, with writing. And with editing, it's trained on our stuff. So it's not generic. It's it's been trained. We've trained it on things that have worked. Um, and I think then the other, you know, the other thing that I say and that I think Katie really embodies in in what she writes is like your job as an as an editor or writer using AI is as I said, not to blindly accept the recommendation, but it is to wrestle with it. Because Again, it's not generic. If it's if you've spent hours training this claw or LM or whatever it is on your work, on your style guide, on your best stuff. on the things that you're aspiring to. It's not inventing things out of thin air. It doesn't mean you have to accept everything it says, but it is Well the thing that r I find very interesting all gate with gate keeping with notwithstanding is that the that you're coming at it from a different Point of view. Instead of a technologist or a coder coming to it fr from that point of view, you're coming from a humanity's point of view into the technology and and and doing vibe coding. And I think in some ways that's ex what's exciting about vibe coding is it it opens the door. It finally opens it up to for anybody to create tools. Uh you have a four hundred rule style guide. Yes. Right? Tell me about that. I love a style. You know, Paris, you may you may have them in your world too. I have APs over here. Um I feel like every job uh I've had I've always been so excited to be like, let's set up a style. Tell for people who aren't journalists, what is a style guide, first of all? A style guide is a set of essentially rules and standards of how you are going to use certain language. Um and it can be anything from grammar, you know, here's how we use commas, here's how we use semicolons, or don't use semicolons, to um here's how we refer to people. Um we always refer to someone with as their full name on first referral and then you know, Mr. Someone on the second referral. Things like that. Um there's any number of them, words you always use, words you never use, um, you know, the the it can it can really encompass an enormous amount. Um and so I created that um when I started I mean, this was it's several years ago. So I I you know, this was pre AI I wrote this. Um, but we basically have fed that into our um into into Claude or into into whatever the LM of your choice. to basically be like these these are your instructions. We've also had to actually rewrite it because it was initially written as a person is gonna be reading this, but Uh you know, for an L M to read things, the format needed to be slightly different. So we did have to um we did have to adjust it in that way. But interestingly still kind of prose. I mean it's that's what's kind of interesting about skills for these AIs is they are English. They're not Code. Oh, for sure. This is all natural language, as as they say. Um and I think when when you, you know, for your from what you were saying about coming into it from the humanities perspective, I think the way that we think about it is You know, we have editorial standards that we a aim to meet or exceed ideally. I think we try every day to do that. Um, we're a small team. I'm not I'm not going to be able to hire a a whole raft of people, but I do have um But I do have standards that I want to apply across the board. And I think one thing that became really clear with with AI and of course with its ability to sort of do pattern recognition and and um automate some things that are that are very repetitive is that like You know, I I as an editor was sort of constantly coming upon the same mistakes every single time. And it's like I don't wanna have to keep correcting this. And again, I'm not saying this about, you know deep thinking about the the the nature of a of a of an argument necessarily, but even just the same things in a piece again and again and again. Like I should not be spending my time on that anymore. Nor should anyone on my team be spending their time on that anymore. And so that's the kind of thing that it can enable you to Um To free you up from from some of that. And also then to apply those standards a little bit more evenly across every it essentially raises the floor of of for me of like the quality level of what I was getting back from my editors. You use the word taste though, which is a word I would never use with AI. You can give A and A I can have can t can have taste. Um I mean I don't know that I taste is not a word that is necessarily in in in my vocabulary all the time. It's certainly a word that is in the Yeah. Um spiral It says on your site is your AI writing assistant with taste. Uh I see. Sorry. I appreciate it. I presume you don't mean like flavor, you mean like good taste and bad taste, right? Well, essentially it's been trained on like every editorial standards. So it's a way of so You know, it's a way of saying, like, here's what we do, here's how what we do to to get the best writing, we hope, out of the people that we work with. And it is now imbued in this in this uh in this product. It says spiral writes with natural rhythm, concrete details and clear language. Taste built in from the start. Yes. I guess that's good taste. And AI can do that? You find this reliable? I use spiral every day. Um And again, what the way that I use it is the way that I use it and is probably different because uh in terms of how other people use it. Um I use it for things like if I have to be writing a marketing email or I have to be you know doing doing something that is not, you know, th the the the highest stakes, but I just want to get it out. And what I'm the writing you don't want to do that you use this for. That's how I use it. Again, it's just my feeling is I like to write. I don't want it to write for me, but I guess you're right, I wouldn't want to write a marketing email. Yeah, I never want to write a marketing book. And what I think is is really useful with Spiral is that it actually returns what it returns is essentially three drafts from three different angles. And it you so it it basically allows you to be like, I like that angle or I like I like those two. I wanna go in that direction and then you're sort of constantly pruning and constantly sort of talking to it. Um, again, that's not to say that people we ha we know from our data that people are actually using Spiral to write books and to write articles and things. So it is it is it it the use cases are individualized. This is just how I use it. Paris, would you use something like that? No, but you know, I think to each their own and the thing. You like to write though, right? I like to write and I also I don't know, I think I there's been a lot of debate over the last week in journalism Twitter about various tech journalists or other journals kind of coming out to using AI for some or all of their work. I think kind of where I Lands and at least for like reporting in journalism where the writing is kind of the output that you are Trying to get people to give you money. Deuce. And there's a lot of cases where it's going to It is something valuable to be able to produce a authentic and interesting and unique uh piece of writing. Which I think one of the downsides of AI Dispace in the way that it works is that of course everything's gonna be a bit smooth. It's going to it's it's something that comes from the result of uh training on a large data set, so of course it's gonna tend towards averages. But I think that's uh That's not to say it couldn't be useful for like sending an email. Like I think my the one instance where I have used AI for writing quote unquote is like if I have to slap out a bunch of request for comment emails. And I don't have t like literally do not have the time to write all of the sentences to it so I'll write a really bad version and then check that. But I'm thinking I'm sure there's a bunch of different kind of examples like that where people's writing output is We're Do you get pushback uh over this, Kate? I mean, uh I I imagine you do. Um pushback from whom? Writers. The reaction to the Cleveland Plane Dealer. Yeah, look, there's a good example. The Cleveland Plane Dealers said, We're going to use AI. And everybody was Yeah, I just I don't really can put I don't really think of ourselves in that discourse, or maybe I just, you know, we just worry about ourselves and I don't really worry about what what the others are saying. I think what where In getting adoption for some of these tools across the team. Where If there was pushback, it was not again, for for every writer, I actually am not would never mandate to a writer you have to use AI to write. It's like if it helps you, if you find it as part of your process, great. If you know some of uh one of our writers always writes first you know, he writes the draft himself before he does anything with AI, you know, whereas Katie will do an interview with AI first. So it really, really depends individually on each person. What I think was really interesting, um you know, about a uh over maybe a year to nine months ago was in sort of using our using our editing tools to essentially be like, you know, we had the style guide, we trained it, we tr we trained the L M, we have like a whole bunch of examples of like headlines and and leads that really work and All sorts of things, and we It really r required um Incorporating that check as a part of our process. Being optional. Took some time. Um, because it you know, you just think like well well, okay, I did you know, I would I would get a draft and I'd be like, Well, I read it and I'd be like, I think I see five things that I s in a significant way, you know, would want to change about it. Did you run this through? Did you did you check it at all? And the if the answer was no, I was like Do that and then send it to me because it's essentially catching the things that I would catch, but now I have to do it. And so that was um that was that just took a little while. So so the style guide, in a way, could be a a competent editor, at least on the technical uh side of it. That makes sense. Yeah. When you were at Medium, you were recruiting uh known writers to come there. And one of the services that you offered, uh this knob that I am, I just want this, was editing help. Um and and and a lot of people took you up on that at the time. Is that kind of the same motif here that that you're offering things that can be helpful to writers if they wish? I'm hearing that from you from your internal writers. What are you seeing for people who are using these tools for things outside of every? What are you hearing depressive feedback from writers elsewhere? Um, gosh, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I don't know that I I have a reliable handle on on how others are saying it outside of again, I've I've I've read some of the same, you know, the same news reports and and dis uh and and read the discourse that Paris was referring to. Um I don't every tool specifically. Oh I'm sorry. These tools aren't used just for every writer's, right? They can be used by anybody who's a member. Yeah. So who do you find is the is the target for that? You find it useful. Who f and are you speaking specifically about the writing tool or j uh or other tools? No, I guess all of them. Um as a writer I think I start there, but yeah. Yeah. Well I think they are people, you know, i in general who who have um Oh Productivity is something that they are in general interested in because these are all tools that are um meant to help you in some way be more productive, um or however you might define that. And maybe that's better writing, maybe that's spending less time writing, maybe that's um spending less time on a first draft and instead getting that first draft out and then spending the time refining something. Um so uh we've we've you know again I think it's a it's very individual in how people use it. Um, I do think that there is a lot of y so for instance when Spiral started, when Dan built Spiral, it was like Well, you know, we we create podcasts every week. You create a podcast every week, but it's not just the podcast. It's the tweet, it's the LinkedIn post, it's the article, it's the Discord, it's the this, it's the that. And like that all just takes time. And time that like we should sh sh we sh we wanted to spend doing other things. And so we certainly know that, you know, in in cases uh again that was the use case that spiral came out of, but like that's that is one way that like I you know, I I I don't want to be spending my time, as I said, writing these writing, you know, marketing emails and things like that. But we're we're seeing use cases of like all across again, the data is showing people are using it for books, people are using it for proposals. People are using it for, you know, LinkedIn posts, which is probably no surprise just what we all see on LinkedIn. Um, but people are really uh, you know, the use cases are across the board. How what was your AI learning journey? What what has it been like? It's a great question. I actually was just on our podcast a couple of weeks ago. Um Talk about it. Um, because I have traditionally I I I love to edit. Like I my happy place when I'm like I have a million things to do, it's like, oh maybe I can just edit this piece. That is that is where I feel like I can just do my thing and I and I know what I'm doing and it's a measure of control and I get a lot of satisfaction. of it. Um so this was this was like a a this was a journey for me as well. Um, and I should say I read and edit uh top edit every single piece that goes out. So so that is absolutely a core part of my job. But um I also have to spend a lot of time, you know, I have a s a a a small team up until like four months ago I had I had like half a person on my team. You know, I didn't even have like a full time staffer. How am I gonna get all this stuff done? I had to hire you know I was I was hiring a bunch of people, um, w had you know was glad to ha to to be able to hire a few people, had a bunch of open roles, and I was essentially Um uh, you know, this is this is one case sort of outside of writing, I should just say that I that I where I really saw the potential. But like I don't wanna spend my time wrangling notion. I don't wanna spend my time in settings, right? You know, setting up pages and connecting databases. Like That's just not where I shine. There are other people for whom that is second nature. Um, it's not for me. And so if I can essentially work with Um, you know, whether it's Cloud Code or at the time it was OpenAI's Atlas to essentially just tell it to do it. Um that frees up an enormous amount of time for me. Um from the writing and editing perspective, Jeff, like it definitely It's interesting because Dan, our our my our our co founder and CEO, he's been saying basically since chat since GPT three came out that like he really wanted to automate the sort of rote parts of my job, like the copy editing. The he just was like, I just don't want you know, to to see you like deleting commas or whatever it is. Like it's just a waste of your time. And he was trying and this is before You know. tools that allowed you to vibe code really came out. Um, but he was really trying to build something like an internal copy editor that would do it. And every time, I mean, this is a sis several times over the past couple of years, he'd be like, I built it. I want you to try it. You know, and then I would try it and I would be like, Yeah, it It didn't catch all of these things and so we're not using it. And so e you know, it's But it it's sort of been like every three to six months there's been a different version of that that he would present to me. And I would be like it would get better and better, but I would still I mean I also still am like Google Docs is like my, you know, don't don't don't take Google Docs from me. But um But um But uh But so it was it was For me also like a okay, this is getting better. This is getting better. It's not great. Yeah. This is getting better. Okay, there there is a point at which and it really was la last year sometime. And then of course with With uh with um uh Anthropic rele releasing Opus. November twenty fourth is when it happened. Yes, I know. It was the big the big moment where it was a clear tipping point of like Oh, if I don't do this, it's actually gonna hold me back. Do you worry about jobs though? I mean um I often think I could probably At some point, not yet, automate the entire workflow. Uh, for this podcast network, except for my wife, 'cause you know. But uh everybody else. Uh but those people first of all, I I really enjoy working with them. I like having them as colleagues. And yeah, maybe I could automate their work, but Seems like that's kind of a grim future for a lot of people. I don't necessarily have the answer to that. I do think that what it what it has enabled and uh what what I think it ultimately will enable and what technology has done is opening up new jobs, new jobs that maybe Don't even exist yet. Different kinds of jobs. I mean the prompt engineer was was not a job a few years ago. And uh again, I think that I think prompt engineering is more of a skill now that that a lot of people have rather than a job. But but but again, that's just an example of something that that came out. Um I think, you know, I think I don't think it's gonna be easy, but I think that if you embrace these tools in ways that are comfortable to you and are are germane to how you work and your world, um, because I really think it fits It's not just the AI, it's the AI and the human expertise. And that's where you're seeing so much of this, so much of these tools and so much of these gains being made. Um, and so I do think that ultimately there will be uh, you know new opportunities and new things for people. uh new things for people to be doing. If you know, if I never have to copy paste And to different forms again, I will be so happy. I just never want to have to do it again. Every dot two is uh the website we're talking uh to the editor in chief. We're so glad to have you on, Kate. Uh and I by the way, you see I signed up for uh the wait list for uh Plus one. Okay. Uh lot of interesting tools on here. This is a very interesting site because it as I mentioned at the beginning, it's A newsletter, yes. It's columns, yes, it's a podcast. But it's also uh products like uh like voice dictation. You know, uh helping you write uh all sorts of stuff, including Uh someday soon is it are you actually are some people set up with plus one now or is it a is it not out yet? So internally we're set up with plus ones and we're just now letting um some people off the wait list. Um but it's it's just the the product wasn't quite ready to to let people off until now. But we're starting to. Um and we've had some beta testers and of course that's just been really useful to get feedback. And some of these tools you get with your subscription, I'm gonna download and install Monologue for sure, which is the voice dictation and The automatic file organization sounds pretty darn cool and uh the email assistant, God knows I need that. So There's a lot of interesting so it's tools. Oh, and I didn't even mention uh you're uh you're doing these events. In fact there's one coming up in a couple of days and these are all virtual, so You can uh attend them from wherever you are. This is uh every and Notion a custom agents camp, but look at all the Events you're gonna do Claude Code for Finance, uh writing camp. Cloud Code for Beginners, OpenClaw Camp. There's a bunch of stuff coming up. And it's it's your team that leads these, or do you bring in people or Yeah, no, I mean I basically oversee the camps and I work with a colleague to run the courses as well. So um definitely wear a lot of hats. Um the camps are are free for paid subscribers, um and the courses are are for a fee, although we have discounts for paid subscribers. Um but yeah, it's um it's it's it's a lot, but it's it's great. It's a lot of fun. If I were gonna put it under a a dome, I'd say it's about a community. It sounds like you're building an every dot to community. Of people who have an interest in this And who wanna use these tools. And it sounds like it's a very interactive space to participate in that. And that I l I love. I think that's kind of what podcasting was all about from the beginning. But we've kept it to just kind of a narrow slot. Uh you're you're expanding. Start voding. Well I need twenty assistants. Maybe plus one will fix that, I don't think. You can get a few. I do have to ask before you leave what's up with the horse head behind you. That was you know, uh that was came up uh earlier when I just hopped on. Um that was a leftover from Halloween that uh I think we had a little Halloween party and then we very recently in like the past, I don't know, two to three weeks actually made this into a real podcast studio and so we felt like it needed to have a place of honor. It's delightful. You could could donate your log, Paris. I do have a log of uh a fake log. It is part of a Halloween cut. Caitly, thank you so much. Thank you for discovering Jeff. Uh appreciate that. Actually really seriously, thank you for introducing us to Jeff kind of in an indirect way, but uh that's been a very uh free over many, many years. Kate got rid of me. She left the field. Yeah, but still, all these years later never read. Here we are. He showed up Bad penny. Caitlyn thank you so much. I think everybody should check out Every Dot 2. Uh, there's a thirty day free trial, I think. So you can uh try it and see what you think. Yep. Um and I'm very interested. It's uh it sounds like a community that we've it's a large one already. It says uh eighty five thousand subscribers. That's I think we're actually up to about a hundred and twenty five thousand. We haven't updated our uh our our language. But yes. Um We're thrilled you're there. And I you know, if you can you have a direct in if you want to send me any feedback. Okay. Good or bad. Okay. I'll wait for my invitation. My plus one. Thank you, Caitlyn. Good to see you. Bye, guys. Take care. We will continue with Intelligent Machines, and don't worry, we're a half an hour away from the Artemis Two launch, and we'll cover that when that happens as well. You're watching uh Intelligent Machines with Paris Martinot and Jeff Jarvis, our show today. Brought to you by Stash. Have you dabbled in investing here and there? Haven't been happy with how things are going? Helps turn good intentions into consistent Progress. 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See the advisory agreement and deposit account agreement for details. Investment advisory services. Offer by Stash Investments LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. Investing involves risk. just realized you're wearing a corn shirt. I don't know how it fully did not seem so normal. It really does. At a certain point you wear so many bombastic shirts that they all kind of blur together. Wait a minute, did you call my shirts bombastic? I like that. I like that as a clothes line, you're just starting bombastic. Bombastic clothes. For the weirdo in us all. Well, anyway, yeah I you know uh Paris, did you have an allergic reaction to uh what we were just talking about? Or Yes. I mean, frankly, my bad for not jumping in. I uh had a I was a little late to the record today because I have had a long and complicated day at work. So I prepared a little less for this than I would normally. And frankly, when it comes to doing a confrontational interview or an interview style you're heavily disagreeing with someone, I think that you need to actually come with significantly more prep than usual. That opinion may not be shared by everybody on this panel. No, I agree with you. I agree with you 100%. So I was a little just uh listening and learning. I just thought it was also a very interesting interview because this has been I mean It doesn't sound like her products are necessarily for journalists or people whose primary output is exclusively writing in the same way. It's not a technologist Uses uh tools like Grammarly for her writing. Um, and I think it she's taking a class in AI and I think she's I think this is very common. She's a CEO, she's a s uh CFO by training. Uh and I think that there is a lot of interest the at that level uh of people in AI, but they don't really know where to go or what to s do and what to start with. If you're a writer You like to write. And uh you don't want somebody to write it for you. That's that's but but this has been a whole this has been like the topic of discussion on journalist Twitter this past week. Because people feel like it's not real. Well I mean there are are a couple of stories that I think are on the rundown that touch on this Um, there was a wired report that uh asked a bunch of uh different kind of newsletter writers and tech reporters about how they're using AI and a lot of them were like I think Alex Heath had said that he feeds a lot of his s uh sourcing material and stuff to a uh LLM and has it write a first draft for him. And then he kind of goes from there and he's like, Well, you know, the hardest part about writing is always like going from zero to one on your first draft. And I agree, that's very difficult. But the reason why that is hard is because that's where your thinking happens. It's very Difficult to s our job is to synthesize a large amount of material collected through these interesting ways and highlight the value and report that out and write that out in a way that is illustrative to the um I believe it can be useful for you. I think for It can definitely be useful. Yeah. You just have to be aware of the fact that if you're talking about using AI the core part of your output, you're going to get something that is sanded down at the edges. I agree. It's gonna be an output that is by definition not very special or particularly excellent because it is an average. of a lot of different things. And that, I don't know, over time I think is going to just Result in Not the sort of work you want to be doing. I will say I I think like like we've talked about in this show before. are most useful for AI application and journalism. Like When I have a folder full of right now, like twenty different PDFs, maybe actually maybe like fifty of that are all various scientific studies on a crazy amount of things that I've gone and found and know are relevant and I I'm now writing and reporting something and I'm like, God, where's that one that says this about that? Asking Notebook L M to go through it and I have all of my documents in there and it tells me what thing I'm that's phenomenal. Right. It's so helpful. I'll give you two other examples. This this week I I I I was invited to write a blurb for a book by an author I admire. Tremendously. And I was blocked. Couldn't get started on it. It was weird. And so I asked AI to write one and it was crap. I didn't use it, but it unblocked me. Right. It made me see, okay, oh right, that's striking. It's like a laxative. It's kind of it's kind of uh you know pleasant. Milk of magnesia for writers. Is that what you're saying? It's like a laxative. Yeah that's a crazy thing to say, Leo. It's more like a broken up that'll be better. It's like just for marketing. But on the other hand, I had a copy editor uh on my new book. I I don't want to speak too much out of school, but what the hell I will. Who spent a lot of time adding P period and PP period to the footnotes and worried about italic commas. That's turned by four dots. Um ellipses into three dots, which were all wrong. I didn't want the P P P. I didn't I wanted my four dots. I wanted this. But you didn't challenge me. There was only one challenge in the whole thing. And I want a copy editor to challenge me. I wanted your your your characters to do that. Um and I put it through and I asked it some simple questions like w what are my ticks? And it found writing ticks that I had done too much. So I could go that's good. That that was useful. That's useful. But reaction, you know, bl unblocking, reaction. I think those things can be useful. Now as I enter as I work on the next book. I do have these folders filled with PDFs. And I can imagine doing things like like there's uh in the invention of the of the um amplifier. It's a very complicated time frame. I might ask it to do a timeline for me. Just so I can keep that straight in my own head, not make it wrong, but at least it becomes a working structure. But I would never, I agree with you, Paris, I would never go at it. Let me just one more thing. So this week in Sacrifice for the show, I went and watched in the theater the AI doc. Which one is that? Isn't there two? Isn't that the whole thing? Oh I didn't know that. But you know, it's also because I hadn't had popcorn in the theater in six years. So You should have gone to see Project Hail Mary, the popcorn. the Reading uh whatever uh Manville Theater. It's in the suburbs. Three people including me in the theater. But really? Yeah. It's subsidized. It's like Melania. It's subsidized to get it out there. So uh the Doomers subsidized it. Um but at one point he's trying the guy is playing the. I don't know what AI is, what's AI? And then screen after screen he comes back, it's patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns, patterns. And it strikes me that yes, that's what AI is good at, to your point, Paris. It's gonna find and replicate those patterns. To me, I came to realize creativity is breaking the patterns. Creativity is seeing the different path to go. And AI's never gonna do that. And uh so I think it's useful in some ways to get things done. But in terms of what we do, in terms of trying to think that we we work creatively and find unique value and and and human uh interest in things, that's still our job. I think Yeah, and I mean well, I think you're right, Jeff, in in what you're noting, but it it can be useful in finding these patterns. It may be like having moments where like You're blocked and you just wanna try and get something on a page. But I also I think it's important to emphasize that There is great usefulness in that struggle. You know? Um trying to find those patterns yourself and really struggling with it and struggling to I agree. I think I I want to resist the Like trying to even Even if you are um I don't know, doing all of this work yourself and then realizing that hey, there's something about this that is blocking me and I'm not able to succinctly analyze this or identify the patterns and synthesize it onto a page is useful data and of itself. I think that obviously there are situations where Using a tool like this. Expedite that process. could be useful, but you have to understand that your what your the trade off is. And the trade off is that you're not thinking as much. No. You aren't getting as deep of a understanding of the material. The outputs could be wrong. And I think you have to be okay with making that trade. And I I don't know. The thing that worries me is that We are setting ourselves up in a system where even just taking writing and journalism, for example, you have these institutional pressures to produce for a lot of journalists more and more, faster and faster for less and less money. And that leads to people feeling like they have to turn to these tools in order to make It works somehow. Uh the output is not going to be Okay, we're about fifteen minutes away from the launch, so I want to just do a few uh News stories so we can cover What's going on? 'Cause there's a lot going on right now in the uh AI space. Some big stuff. The f biggest one I think of the week is the leak of Claude Code's source code. Did you know that inadvertent leak. Uh It's not clear. Uh Anthropics said it was a human error. It could easily been a vibe coded AI error. But the leak It was immediately pulled down but not fast enough and it has now there are tens of thousands of copies. Uh Putting DMCA pull down requests out like Crazy. Trying to uh trying to get them off the internet. It's not illegal to have it, though. If you it's th they they couldn't really sue you if you just have it, right? But we would say that's that. You can own it. Like you can have it on your hard drive. But uh people are putting out for instance, uh somebody's And uh you can download that and there's some question about it's it's originally type script uh code. There's some question about if you download Claud code in Python and run it. Uh there's thirty two thousand stars on the GitHub right now. I'd be a little nervous about it. Um but you know, I don't know, the lawyers will have to weigh in on that. There are people who have taken it and done interesting things with it, for instance Uh, Ben Davis has actually uh Taking and putting Doom inside Claude Code. So it's really it's an important part of every Doom. You have to answer this question. Can it play Doom? Yes, and it can. Uh easily, quite well. In fact, I don't know why that's such an accomplishment. But anyway. Uh we've seen a lot of interesting analysis of how clawed code works. I think I could summarize it by saying it's more than just The model that Claude Code almost half a million lines of code. It's um The harness is very important to the effectiveness of clawed code. It's not just Opus. Lot of interesting uh stuff. There is a website that I think If you're interested, um, is worth looking at. It's Claude Code Unpacked. And uh you can actually see the process. of how clawed code works with what you bin, which I think is is kind of cool. And it shows the architecture and stuff. It's less it's less of a geeky deep dive into the code and more of uh just a you know kind of a a higher level how it works and what it's doing. There were some h hidden features that showed up. There was one that uh I think was intended for April Fools. It was only supposed to work April first through seventh. Called Buddy. It was a virtual pet. Tamagotchi inside of Claude Code that You'd have to keep alive. Um there is some interesting agency stuff like something called Kyros. Um there's some very expensive things. There's an auto dream mode, which I think would be very interesting. When you're not using it, when you're idle. It goes through what happened and organizes it. Yeah into learnings. Which is potentially very, very powerful. So this is a nice little site if you want to just kind of understand what surprised you in this? Um No. I don't know if we really learned all that much. Well okay. Wasn't there something that uh tracked the amount of times you cursed at Claude Code? Oh yeah, you want to see that? Uh I could show you that. So uh this this comes from uh West Boss. He was digging into the code just to see a variety of things. For instance, when Claude Code works, it has uh a verb that goes over and over again and there are one hundred eighty seven of them. He found the verbs. These are what they call the spinner verbs. These are the words. They filter out twenty I won't say them on the uh air there. Kind of George Carlin's Twenty five. It also keeps track of when you swear at it. And uh sends it back to the home office. It logs your prompt as negative in their internal analytics, West Boss says. Now, I think that makes sense because that's a sign that whatever Claude did wasn't right. And so maybe it's looking at that. Voice Mail Jail would do that. Yeah. So there was some valuable stuff. There was also a mention of Copy Barra. I'm sorry. I'm getting gets spammed and I have should be in Do Not Disturb. When I do these shows. I don't know why. Um you live life with your every time your phone rings, it makes a sound. Oh yeah, I'm Yola. Not only does it make a sound, but because I have 18 Macs in this room. All of them make a sound. What a nightmare. My card hasn't audibly rang in like eight weeks. Really? Oh that's nice. No no no commercials, no phone calls. Boy, the youth today. They live a different world. You writers, you know how to live. The other thing I think is important and uh this actually is kind of an interesting topic. Uh, they have there is mention in it of copy barra. We've heard about this mythos model that Anthropic supposedly is getting ready to ship. I saw one uh tweet. that is so good that they have held it back and have been warning governments and security experts this is gonna be dangerous when we release it. There's also a rumor it will be extraordinarily expensive. Uh OpenAI is about to release Spud. Both of these models, they say are uh a step change above what they're already doing, which is already very impressive. Spud Mythos sounds good, right? Spud. It just spud. Here comes Spud, your potato. Uh brought up an interesting point that I I kind of think is intriguing. What if These companies do release really good agents that are incredibly capable, but price it So that only the wealthy can afford it. Mm-hmm. I was gonna say Is that not where all of this is going? Isn't that LG breaks all the time? Yeah, but I mean I don't mean like somebody who can afford a three thousand dollar computer. I mean a millionaire. I mean somebody who has so much money they can spend ten business dollars a month on their own. Is it a business or is it a people what it costs. That's the point. For these services, yeah, then only the extraordinarily wealthy would be able to do it. I mean this is probably one of the reasons why there's um A uh Cool um that I included in the rundown that one of the takeaways was that a majority of Americans across all ages and political affiliations think AI will do more harm than good to their everyday lives. The only exception is people ab who make over two hundred thousand dollars a year. They were the only group that was like, Yeah, I think AI will uh Do more good than that. At the same time, people are using AI more than ever. It's just like social media. It's the media uh trope being play back in the polls. It's the movie you just saw scaring people. And actually honestly, I think It's also People who encounter AI as chatbots have a very different impression of what AI is and is capable of than people who who are encountering it in Tools like Claud Code. It's just a very different experience. How is Clo Claud Code is still a trap bot? You're interacting with it. I mean It's just a uh all I can say is Quality of what you get back from it, the capabilities it has How about this? You're getting actions from it. I'm getting actions from it. I'm getting it's writing code. I'm not getting I'm not saying Yeah, I'm not saying hey, how much is a stamp? Yeah, but most the average person No, they're not coding. I understand. So why would they use that? No, I'm not saying they should. I'm just saying their experience is very different. Because chatbots are kinda dopey. And if you're making silly pictures. Or if you're asking it, you know, find the best running shoes for me, that's just a very different experience. than if you're using it to code. And the people who are using it to code are seeing a different that is much more powerful and much more intriguing. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying you should just saying it it's a different view view of it. Uh the other thing that's a big story, and then we're gonna have to take a break is the Big time compromises, supply chain compromises. Uh, first on Pi P I uh with the light L L M. And now this one happened yesterday, Axios, which is by the way A library used by Claude Code. The problem is when these are compromised, uh, people are downloading them and running them without their knowledge even. They're they're libraries that are invoked by other tools you may not know. And uh they this is becoming a real Serious problem. talked about light LLM uh last week, uh which is widely used. Forty we now know for forty seven thousand people downloaded it in the forty six minutes it was available. These tools are uh these libraries are downloaded, you know, light LLM is downloaded I think ninety two million times a month. three million, more than three million times a day. Uh Axios also extremely popular. So these attacks can really threaten in a in a big way. We're gonna take a break. When we come back, I do wanna uh watch us uh get us to watch the uh Artemis two launch. It looks like there go. It's a very nice day. Uh Cape Canaperal. Um T minus twelve minutes until Yeah we're actually at ten now. So get from page. Yeah, ten minutes. Uh so it's a hold it's a hold of ten minutes. Uh yeah, maybe, yeah. Yeah, it does look like they're a hold. That's a normal hold, I think. Um I just want to play Walter Cronkite, that's all. So We'll sit here at the watching pad and watch as Artemis II makes its way to the moon. First time we've gone back to the moon in how many years has it been? Thirty some years. Hope it's still there. It's full tonight. There's only one way to find out. Let's go see. They don't get to get out. That's all. They have to drive around it. It's like uh when m you know, you're driving down the highway and you saw the drive in movie and you got a glimpse of the movie, but you didn't You didn't get to watch that. A what in what? You surely have been to a drive in. Yeah, I have. Well, I haven't been to one, but I know of the concept. They still exist? There's one or two. I have I have not been to one because I don't know where they are. It'd be a good field trip for the Brooklyn gang. I would love that. During Covid they they they brought him back in the Bay Area. There was a bunch of dry ins that popped up. Yeah. You get and and and you have to park and the and there's a hump where you park 'cause it tilts your car up a little bit. And then there's a speaker on a post, a really crappy metal speaker on a post that you hang in the window. I'm gonna be honest, my entire knowledge of driving movie theaters, other than just conceptually from reading, is from of the TV show Psych that uh where a pivotal scene with uh serial killers took place at a driving movie theater. They're scary. to go to the popcorn stand and you never anything could happen. But then you could not find your car getting back and you're lost. Never happened to me, I have to say. But it was fun for dates. So it's just the two of you in your car. Uh we're gonna take a break, come back with more memories from Gramps. You're watching Intelligent Machines. With a couple of old guys and a young lady named Parish Martinot? And uh Mr. Jeff Jovish. Our show today brought to you by Monarch. Oh yeah, I'm so glad I have Monarch. I tell you, tax season, right? Really gets you to look at your finances. Monarch is perfect for that. 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This is the AI at work. Then you share a link or QR code with your group. Everybody can claim their items, settle the bill effortlessly. How about that? Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all in one tool. That makes money management simple. Use the code I am. Monarch.com for half off your first year. That's fifty percent off. Monarch Calm. Don't forget the code, very important. I am Monarch.com. We thank him so much. Yeah. Intelligent machines. Let's see. I'm gonna go uh I guess we're still on a hold here. NASA. Let me uh go full screen on this. There's happy people watching. The chat suggests to me that things are happening. You're not up to date, I don't believe. It's not just a hold, is it is it something else? You're not live. It looks like you're not live, Leo. Oh I wanna be live. You gotta not be doing I don't know, but it's not that. Are you sure? Is he live? Because I don't know, the the time quote at the bottom says there's six hours and twenty three minutes into that already. Well that's just you know, that's just them. Clock is still top. No, I'm live. Yeah. Ten minute countdown. We're cleared for launch. Uh we're just waiting. And by the way, uh our own uh intrepid space hosts Rod uh Pyle and Tarek Malik are not there. I don't think they're in that. Maybe they are in that audience. Mm. Uh dignitary. Those are dignitaries. They're not very dignified. I think they're out there at the bleachers, you know, there's a great seed. Cros the water. from the the launch pad where you get to see it actually happen and feel it. Yeah, more importantly. I was really sad we were Uh at the uh Kennedy Space Center uh last month and the rocket had been pulled back. They had to put off the launch. We came this close. There they are in the uh in the bleachers. That's the bleacher. Is the gantry already pulled back or is that not y not yet. They're about ready to restart the countdown. What's a gantry? The thing that holds the rocket up. Well there's Elmer Gantry, but that's a different thing. That's a preacher. Uh, and then there's You're not a preacher holding that rocket up? I think uh the good Lord is holding that rocket up with his uh with his mighty um you know um No, it's actually that tower, which will Slide back. But that's pretty close to launch, because the thing you want the thing to fall over. Can we all get corn shirts? Is that corn shirts. I think we all need corn shirts. Uh, I'll get a normal I'll get a corn shirt like yours, Leah, but then we've gotta get a custom black one for Jeff, where it's like all the corners. Corn shirt. Uh Grayscale. All right. Uh let's see. What else? There is uh we got a lot of news to uh get through. We got time for it. Google, um oh actually we should mention this open AI We did mention it early, I think, uh closed on Windows Weekly, uh a another f round of financing a hundred twenty-two billion. Dollars. That gives them an eight hundred fifty two billion dollar valuation. So losing Disney's one billion last week was no big. Uh unbelievable. Um and w what I thought was kind of interesting, you know, SpaceX is also apparently today going to uh Spectacular IPO, but I doubt they'll raise 122 billion. Yeah, I mean they confidentially filed today, right? Yeah. So it's interesting that you can still if you are growing at the rate that uh OpenA is growing, not making money obviously, but if you're growing Uh, you could still go to the uh investors and say, Hey, give us some money. And they'll give you enough money so you don't have to go public. Um there are rules we were talking about this um on Windows Weekly, there are SEC rules. Google was in the same position. They didn't really want to go public, but they had to because the SEC rules say I think if you have more than a thousand investors You have to go public. You are de facto a public market. Yeah. And that was because they were giving uh stock options to their employees. I don't know what intel situation intelligent machines is in. The countdown has resumed, so we're now nine minutes away from launch. We will cover that launch, but we'll continue. Uh until then. Yeah, SpaceX is filed confidentially. But how do we know that if they file says Bloomberg says it. So that's well Bloomberg knows. They know. I mean Bloomberg yeah knows. I don't see SpaceX as a business. But you know, is it is it a trillion dollar business? Okay. It's it's the same thing as uh Uber, as uh We Work as open AI. These are companies that aren't currently profitable, but there's an upside. There's a huge upside. W that's no that's what I'm questioning. There's only so many rockets to go up. There's only so much uh uh They make money quite a bit of money on uh Starlink. Fine, fine, but SpaceX makes all the money from the government, doesn't it? Like it's all a government. They're selling there's these you know, this isn't a SpaceX launch, this is a NASA launch, but Yeah, they're making a lot of money from the government. Uh, I think there's probably thinking of things like asteroid harvesting. Asteroid mining. Yeah, because that really goes so well. Yeah, both Bloomberg and the Wall Street Journal have reported that SpaceX is filed. Do they say what they uh what they expect uh the strike price to be, or They're aiming to raise between forty billion and eighty billion dollars in an offering. See, isn't that interesting? So open AI without going public Raise twice that. Well yes. And that's why we're all And you have to figure that uh SpaceX were really Is it already part of Tesla and XAI or is there are they not merged all through the Gantry moving just like that? Oh wait, nope, it did. SpaceX combined with uh XAI in February to create a one point two five trillion juggernaut. In the biggest corporate tie up by value in US history, which is the most Wall Street journal Claws of all time. Uh well yeah, so the AI there's the AI investment there too. Maybe that's part of it. I mean what will be interesting, which they note is that once the filing is made public, it's gonna have a bunch of interesting and never before and seen information about the combined company's operations. Um, because they obviously have to go into detail about all of this. This is why Google didn't want to go public. It's why a lot of companies would prefer not to go public because suddenly you are. Yeah, you've got to open the books. Tell all the people the reasons why. You're a bad investment. I mean, I have to s of Tesla's public, right? I have to say companies have gotten very adept at non Gap accounting and hiding and for instance Apple Apple no longer says how many iPhones they've sold. You'd think that'd be material of material interest to investors. But somehow they get away with it. I guess the argument is that if if you really want to know that you and you don't want to invest, then you don't invest. It works for him. But the whole point of disclosure. By the way, the Trump administration is thinking, or the SEC is thinking Uh eliminating quarterly reports. Right. Maybe we just do this twice a year. What? What? What? Why? It's a lot of work. Every three months you gotta get all the financial together. So so sorry that you have to tell the public and your investors what you're up to every three months. Such a terrible time. It's slanting away from investors towards these companies. Uh I mean yeah. That was the whole thing. Yeah. Well I mean they're the next people, right? Because first they screw over the customers and then they screw over their investors. That's called insidification. So you wait another three months to find out more. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Google is rolling out AI inbox beta for AI Ultra subscribers. That is a statement that sounds felt, like just fake. That sounds like you generated that statement algorithmically. Okay. What is an AI Ultra subscribe? I don't even know. It's a personalized briefing that surfaces the actual information you need instead of a message that you have to open and read. I mean There's no company that I would trust to do this less than Google, who any time I try to use the search function in Gmail, it returns anything that I did not search for. It is like astounding how bad it is. And this is returning the things I'm going to be. Yes! It's baffling. They need you to increase increase the search queries. They need you to ask again and again. Well, they they've said that they have a new engine quote, engineered privacy environment. Where your information is Processed in a separate space and doesn't leave that space so that Google doesn't have access to the So I signed up for a Google Workspace Studio that's supposed to send me notify me of urgent emails. Yeah, this is kind of example. Jeff is urgently asked donate f $25 to Mary's U.S. Senate campaign tonight. It worked pushed FEC deadline. That was urgent. It's urgent. It was so urgent. Jarvis needs to coordinate a preliminary meeting with the panelists and submit administrative materials. Urgently. Urgent. I think people are just gonna game it, right? Final urgent appeal for donation. I wish I could have a button that eliminates all solicitations for money. It's also just very I don't know. Google rolling out any features like this uh has my hackles raised because Gmail and G Suite are I think notorious for not allowing you to turn off any of the extra AI features or else it completely wrecks the basic functionality of Gmail. If you try to turn off the awful little Uh little purple line that says how you should rephrase every sentence of your email. Not for grammatic ish. It's not because the grammar's wrong. It's not because the spelling's wrong. It's just like we think this would be better phrased. If you want to turn that off, you have to turn off all spell check. You have to turn off uh any sort of um to sort your inbox in into like little categories. You have to turn off basically every feature that makes Gmail Gmail. Because it ties in those features with like as well. I suppose the P does stand for Picky. Yeah. Now I have to point out Gmail launched on this day. April Fool's Day. Twenty two years ago. 2004. Can you believe this? And in 2004, I thought it was a pretty good idea. Create a Gmail account. port. Not a good idea. Two minutes to launch. Two minutes to launch. Sho we should we go to the uh video? I'm sorry to interrupt. Yeah, it's exciting. I have the audio. I think I do. Let me make sure it's Oh, that's neat. That's the rockets behind. But what happened with your your Laporte uh Gmail? Well, Google has announced that you can now change your Gmail name. Years since. Yeah, I mean uh if I change it, it's not gonna be Laporte, it's gonna be Laporte fifty eight seventy nine nine nine nine or something, right? Something that no spammer will uh will know. Unfortunately you keep your existing Gmail in the aim and uh because of course they're not gonna turn off that, you'd lose all your email. So I'll still get all the spam I get a port. Yeah. And you can revert to your name when you when you're regret changing. This is why you just gotta create a second one and then you have two separate It's just another new boxes that you can look at. I guess it's recyclable from this uh vehicle. Uh nothing, unfortunately. It should be. It was it was intended to be, but uh these are reusable. Uh the pods on the side were reusable. Did they ever get those astronauts who were stuck up at the space station? They did. Yes. No, no, that's a different one. You're ta we're talking the ones who were stuck there because the leak in the Boeing uh return vehicle. Um they both retired from the astronaut corps. Yes, the guy the astronaut was returned a little while ago. It turned out yeah he's not a good somehow lost his ability to speak. Yeah, he's fine now. Here we go. I'm not sure that I've ever watched a mission to the moon happen live. Oh, you missed it. What year was the last time we went to the moon? Fift ago. NASA No, the last time the last time astronauts it it says on NASA's website we're sending astronauts around the moon for the first time in fifty years. And here we go. Sh you and I are all pale. So twenty five inches. Holy cow. Yeah. These are very powerful engines. Whoa. Oh my gosh. Very fast. Whoa. Humanity's next great voyage. That's that's steam, by the way. They water cool the uh launch so that Vapor steam. As if Florida's not humid enough. Yep. That's so cool. I'm always inspired by watching these. And praying a little bit. Yeah. You and I are old enough to remember watching. I was in the newsroom when it happened. Still. Mission control used it. Good performance on the board. No. I was very much like that. It's I like doing this because it's fun to watch this together. Uh Yeah. It it's a k a good communal. We need Jammer B. Yeah. the cheers coming from the bleachers there. It's apparently something to see that ground really crumbles. There's a huge way. Oh, to slip the surly bombs of earth. Actually that's what Reagan said when the challenger Astronauts died, so we don't say that. Oh sorry. That's not the way to that's not really what they're trying to do right now. Second to do the Artemis two mission. So five days away from uh the moon? How many orbits around the earth before it swings? I th I I wasn't sure I asked that question, and I don't know if anybody uh knew that. Probably not a long time. Now if you were really Walter Cronkite, you'd have a model, you'd be explaining all the models that they would take apart. And you'd have an astronaut at Jim Level or somebody sitting next to you and two minute nine seconds. Well what's amazing about these now is there's the people at the bleachers. Look for Rod uh and Terek out there out there, I'm sure. There's of course a bunch of tourists. Hey, there's your mom and dad. Nope. Wow. How cool. Hey the moon is this. There's a shot. Look at that. Yeah. Stage OCS ready. Watch, we're gonna one shot inside was mainly of the feet of the astronauts. It was interesting. They got a foot cam? Yeah. Two minutes forty-five seconds of mission elapsed time into the Artemis 2 mission. Thrusters on integrity and upper stage confirmed in a ready state ahead of service module fairing separation. Do you think that person's chosen like do you think there's like a little audition for who has the best voice to kinda do the public announcement? Well it might be now. It used to be Capcom and uh passing five thousand these guys were. Now it's a past person. Oh, there goes the fairing. I wish Richard Campbell were here because he knows exactly what's going on. He was an amazing tour guy. integrity good last genison great view Would hate to be a fish right now. We see a sail on board, Stan. Can I go to the bathroom now, Dad? Outstanding stand we have you see. Three minutes fifty seconds into the flight of Artemis II. Hansen cross the boundary to space with good com checks. GPS signals acquired after last jettison now working on internal checks to verify accuracy. Light dynamics officer analyzed the time of main engine cutoff confirmed at eight minutes two seconds, time of Miko. Miko. Main engine cut off. Oh, Darren points out a makes a good point. It's all fake, 'cause we know the earth's flat. Right. Right. It's just big mass. As Brand points out, the Carmen line is the the order between the atmosphere and space. Pretty amazing. I love the pictures, these pictures from the best part spacecraft. And we're getting such good pictures nowadays. Yeah, movie or cursor, Leo. Sorry about that. There it is. There is no cursor in the game. I was God move moving in the game. Move your cursor. Back in the day, it was this is an incredibly picture where the sense to know that the image would go all around the screen because there was no holding stead. They have some guy on uh with a very long telephoto lens. Now we get to the case. Someone doing sketches and kind of mailing them to your address. Amazing shots. These are incredible. Now there's like a GoPro mounted to the side of the rocket. Where is this camera? I can't wait to hear Rod and Tarek talk about their experience. Houston. They're watching. Three hundred and thirty miles down range, approaching ten thousand miles per hour. That's what's a thousand miles an hour. Yeah. Imagine what else we could do. Could someone in the chat uh I guess to make a AI video of uh one of the corns on Leo's shirts taking off like You can't make AI videos anymore. I was just about to say I I almost interrupted myself a AI videos are over. Uh with the animations were always great too. Miles in altitude, four hundred and sixty miles downrange. It's good. Everything's gone great. Very encouraging. I think it's refraction. Yeah. Yeah, what's that? That's the engine. Oh, that's like from below? It's an extreme. Seven minutes of mission elaps time. How long we're going to be able to do probably continue on. Instead of just the uh really compelling audio of us just silently. Watching in awe. Yeah. Very cool, though. Very cool. Uh congratulations, Godspeed, as they say. They should do a podcast from up there. Did you do a podcast on the moon? That would be cool. I'd volunteer for that. Uh, let's see, what else? Uh are you gonna change your name? Did you change your name on Gmail? We were talking about that before the uh launch. I've got a bad one I what would I change it to? That's the same thing. I have all of I have all the email Gmail addresses I'd want. And I have them I guess separated. because I this wasn't a thing before. But now I just have all of my logins all be logged in at the same time. We'll just toggle through them. Like the different user. So. Yeah, I don't really use Gmail anymore, so uh I guess I don't really need to Worry about it. Have you tried the Atti app on Blue Sky? You can't available for us. It uses AI to give you control over your social feed and it is right now the most Blocked account after J D fans on Blue Sky. Um Yeah. Yeah. It allows users to design their own social media algorithms and create custom feeds. within an A T protocol. So you're making your own algorithm, which is a good thing, right? Yeah. This is what A this is what uh At Proto was all about, was control. A hundred twenty five thousand users have blocked Addy's Blue Sky account. Why? I don't know. Oh it's AI, yeah, can it. That's worse than the White House and Ice. Um I think it makes good sense. Uh I saw somebody on on the socials. On blue sky. Um the algorithm is supposedly addictive. Uh whoever was I wish I could remember said, Well I don't use Facebook and that's got an algorithm. I use Blue Sky, there's no algorithm, and I'm addicted to it. But now you can make your own out of it. Yeah. Well we'll see. I uh you know, it's early days yet. Uh once we get access to it, we can see how that is. The Electronic Frontier Foundation, we just uh I just did a nice interview with her director, Cindy Cohn. Um is suing for answers about Medicare's AI experiment. Now, Jeff, you and I are on Medicare because we're Shane or Shiniganj. Mm-hmm. Uh They uh Medicare is proposing to use an AI algorithm to determine We get. The death penal. Turns out to be a machine. It's worse than a uh death penal. I'd rather humans made these decisions. Amen. Uh, this was announced by Dr. Oz last year. That gives me confidence. It is uh the program's known as Wiser, which is uh an acronym that stands for Wasteful and Inappropriate Service Reduction. Did they really think this through? This name is not good. It uses AI to assess prior authorization requests. Ah, interesting. Prior authorization request for Medicare beneficiaries. Oh, I see. Prior authorization requires medical providers to obtain advanced approval from the insurer before delivering treatment. So it is a request, can I deliver can I fix Jeff's bum ticker before I could get it. Which already that is a that is a system that exists in order to put more hurdles towards people accessing care. It's already a speed bump and you're adding Robotics speed bump on top of that. Sorry. Rolled out in January in six states, six point four million beneficiaries. Uh, by design, Wiser incentivizes contracted companies to deny prior approval against the best interests of patients. Because vendors are compensated. In part on the volume of health care services they deny. Well, this is worse. It's I'm not on Medicare, I'm on advantage. This is the only choice it was given. So That is paid a lump sum. And uh its job is to then be as as efficient with me as possible. So they're already. Their uh That's exactly right. So uh E FF has uh has asked for injunctive relief for violation of the Freedom of Information Act. Oh, E F. They want to know more about 'em. Yeah. Thank you, E F. We appreciate it. Um Governor Newsome has signed an executive order requiring Safety and privacy guardrails. From AI companies that do business with the state. I'm not sure what those guardrails are flying guardrails right there. Uh they'll have to explain their safety and privacy policies around AI. The state will examine policies carefully on how the companies prevent exploitation of individuals, including the spread of CSAM. Are used to monitor individuals or block certain speech? Companies will have to explain how they're avoiding bias. In their systems. Not sure that's a bad thing, but uh And they also, uh he called on state officials to begin watermarking AI generated or manipulated videos they create. Certainly the state officials who are creating AI videos should definitely watermark them. I would agree on that. I don't know if you can compel private individuals to do that, but you certainly if you're working for the government and you're doing that, you should you should label. And uh David Sachs, we thought might be leaving the White House, but no. Uh he is he has a new role. Uh, David Sachs the podcaster and AI and cyber Coin. Tsar at the uh Trump administration. Uh Is uh We didn't go over this last week. twelve point AI plan. Well but it was it was written. It was written as if by an adult. Yeah. There were some booby traps in it, but it actually had some decent things in it. Nothing's gonna happen though. Nothing's gonna happen. Um You're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis. Leo Laporte, Paris Martinau, great to see you. Good to have you. Now let's talk about these surveys that you were talking about, Paris. Fifteen percent of Americans say they'd be willing to work for an AI boss. Fifteen percent. Well that's not 15% of Americans say their boss is so bad. I'd rather work for AI. A Quinnipiac poll. Uh, only fift it really should be only fifteen percent say they'd be willing to work for an AI. This um The majority said they would would not be willing to swap their human boss for an AI people manager. Nevertheless, um You may be ending up working for an AI. Companies like Work Day have launched this is from Tech Crunch AI agents that can file and approve expense reports on your behalf. Amazon has deployed new AI workflows to replace some of the responsibilities of middle management. You know, y you c I you can get rid of middle management. I think that's okay. W my friends universities work day is the most hated thing that's Yeah. Nobody likes work day. Uh this is being AI is being used to replace layers of management in what some are calling the great flattening. It's true that in a lot of tech companies there are a bunch of people who don't do anything. Useful. And most people are I think would be much happier with less hierarchy. Um Anyway, Quinn P X says. Americans are wary about what it means for job prospects. Seventy percent of the respondents say they believe advances in AI will lead to a decrease in the number of job opportunities. I don't know what the other thirty percent were thinking. More than half the U S this is the one you were talking about, Paris, say uh AI is likely to be harmful. And the only segment they split up uh all of these responses, whether you think AI is gonna do more good or do more harm, into a bunch of different things. You know, they split it up by like your political beliefs, what generation you're in, income, what you know about AI. Uh In all cases they were adamant You're gonna be doing AI is gonna do more harm than it's gonna do good in the one exception is people who made over two hundred thousand dollars a year. Those people said, Yeah, I think AI is gonna do more good to my day to day life than which I think is Notable. Anthropic asked the question of uh several Actually, 80,000 people. If you could wave a magic wand, what would AI do for you? The largest uh Cohort said uh eighteen percent said people hope for professional excellence. It would help them do better. That's such a funny category. Then personal transformation, then life management, time freedom. Financial independence, societal transformation, entrepreneurship. Learning and growth and Only five percent were hoping for creative expression. Because they're gonna do it on their own. Right, Paris. Hopefully. That's uh the survey. Survey says. Um What other w uh before we move on. What other stories uh were you excited about? Paris, you first I got I got one or two. I'll give you one real quick. Most people this is from you, Jeff. Most people Don't enjoy their jobs, says the perplexity CEO. Shocking. Wow. I'm so glad we have somebody on this case to figure it out. And so that means good news, they're gonna get laid off, but it's a chance to l start your own AI venture. AI layoffs create entrepreneurial opportunities. This was of course on The All In podcast with David Sachs and Jason Calican during GTC Uh Aravan Srinavas acknowledged, Yeah, hey I could displace jobs, but the reality is most people don't enjoy their jobs. So it's a boon. No, the reality is most people don't like having to have a job. Most people well enjoy paying the rent. Most people. I don't think most people in Yeah, most people do not enjoy paying the rent. They enjoy the rent having be in pay. Having been paid. By the job they don't enjoy. All right. I gave you a minute to think about something. Did you find something you care about? Line eighty? Really kind of interesting story. Biggest AI conference. What is the biggest AI conference? It is the um I C M L God Not gonna remember what that stands for. All of these conferences they presume you know. Right. Well you know it's international uh cooperation and machine learning specialists. It is the international conference on machine learning. Right. Yeah. So they put out um a call for papers. And in it. They buried invisible instructions. So they put they put these in the papers that they sent out for peer review. Peer review, right. If a reviewer fed the paper into an LLM, the invisible instructions Would then insert telltale phrases in the review. So that they would know. Hey, you used the LLM for the review. Uh Of the papers. Five hundred and six reviewers used A I Three hundred and ninety-eight had their own papers rejected as a result. So in other words, a lot of people. They did agree not to do that, I guess. Violations of the LLM review policies. But there's a fair amount of upset that this organization would do this to their own. It's the international conference of machine learning. You think they won't use AI? Exactly. This is what they do. Exactly. The decision to assume from the outset that your reviewers cannot be trusted to read a paper and think about it without a machine doing it for them tells you something far more important than the number who got caught. Crap 'em. It tells you that the institutions responsible for advancing human knowledge no longer believe human judgment is the default. So says Sam. Just to help her. Most person's pissed that that ICML did this. It was only one percent of all reviews. So it wasn't. Spread. Actually, I'm surprised it wasn't more widespread. I mean, don't most of these systems catch prompt injections like that. Well, I don't understand how if it was a paper to review, how did it end up in the pr review they wrote? I mean I guess probably what it would be is the classic, like, white text Yeah. Document thing where you upload it in like you you upload a PDF to Claude or Chat GPT and you The human looking at it just see your normal PDF with the black text you read, but hidden in there is White text or very small text that you don't easily see, but that the L L M parces. But the issue is To insert the word spaghetti into the review. And then a lot of these uh systems now have kind of like built-in defense for that, which is there's something in this that told me to insert the word spaghetti. I'm not going to and it will notify you of it. So they're not even using the best AIs. The ones that got caught were using crappy AIs. Uh, what else? Do you got a n you have another uh story Paris that you would like to do? I mean we talked about this earlier, but uh There was this Wall Street Journal piece, uh that was a Um it's line ninety two. It's a profile of this journalist at Fortune, Nick Lichtenberg. Uh. He's very relaxed. You know why. He's very relaxed because he uses a lot of people. You don't write in your lap. Have you ever written in your lap with your feet up on the desk? No. No. I mean not in many, many years. That is not like a good way to write a story. They say that on a Wednesday in fr February, he uh it's journalist Nick Glickenbeard produced more stories in six months than any of his colleagues Fortune delivered in a year. One Wednesday in February, he cranked out seven. bit of a freak, Lichtenberg said. Now let me do a a rare case of a Paris back in my day, which is back in my day when I started my journalism career, uh a wee eight year, eight, nine years ago. We also regularly cranked out seven stories a day, and it wasn't because I used AI, it's because that's called aggregation, baby. You write up other people's work. You do all you source it to them and you're basically just doing a bunch of quick blogs that really add very little to the overall ecosystem of the things that you're gonna you just are trying to scrape off some of the traffic if people wanting to read about that story. This is not I don't know, anything novel, but it's being pitched as if it is like A revolutionary approach to journal. Because how he did it. He said AI assisted stories accounted for nearly twenty percent of Fortune's web traffic in the second half of 2025. Most were written by Lichtenberg. And basically how he Seems to do it is he just like Throw some stuff in His L M of Choice. Prompts it to write an article and then pastes it in the CMS and edits it from there. And I'm just like, this is a des I mean, it's a disaster ethically. It's basically Participating in this uh interview and profile is advertising to your readers that you don't care enough to even do the work produce work for them. You're just Offloading or something else. And also the thing that ended up Making me sad about all of this is given my own experience, like Yes. Living in the aggregation m like the aggregation content minds wasn't great. It sucked. It was you were not producing good journalism by any means, but it was also I think like an essential of the experience of becoming a journalist and getting exposed to a bunch of different like that when you're writing six or seven aggregation pieces a day, you are reading like six or seven big news stories every day figuring out how those stories work. and then figuring out a way to kind of make your own vacsimile of that. And that is a useful skill for first job journalists or early stage interns. And it just makes me sad that I don't know. this whole section of the economy of of the journalist ecosystem has been h hollowed out and will continue to be hollowed out because like what are The earliest stage. career options for this industry supposed to be. Can't imagine Uh the work Woodward and Bernstein did in the Washington Post exposing the watergate burglary at being done by a machine. That's that a human has to do it. Now, I can imagine a rewrite machine rewriting their case. If you were if you were on the you know the Cleveland uh uh desk at the Associated Press You were taking articles from the newspaper and you were rewriting them. Yeah. That's dumb. So Yeah. But but if but but real reporting. You gotta go out and do it, right? Mm-hmm. You don't get to the real reporting right away, though. You need to go through those initial steps of reading other people's reporting and figuring out the before you actually do a city council meeting and writing up the story. It's like such an essential step to learning how journalism even works is just reading a bunch of like if you're fresh in a beat. The advice I always give to like younger new reporters is like just read literally everything you can on the beat, like the commodity news stories, press releases, uh write ups of press releases, write ups of other people's scoops, anything possible because ingesting all that information will make you a smarter person. and better reporter and better writer because we'll start to see the patterns. And offloading that sort of pattern recognition. It doesn't do a That's really true. Uh in in anything, when you're learning it. Y what you're learning is kind of the pattern recognition, the the rhythm of it. I mean this is why I also this is why despite the fact that we have calculators, you still teach Children math because it's important to understand the basics and be involved in the work. before you get to offload it to something. Yeah, and then you get to the point where you're like okay, this is what I want to offload to AI and this is what I want to offload to AI. But until you get there, you need to do all the stuff. Yeah. And I'm just worried that this is creating a whole culture where that's not even gonna be an option for people anymore. Old devil's advocate, just for a second. And and that's all it is? Is that once upon a time You had to take a pencil and graph paper and draw. Charts and graphs and pie charts and all that. And then suddenly um spreadsheets did it for you. And it wasn't cheating. It was just easier. It was just information presentation. And it did it well. Well how much did you learn from drawing pie charts? Whatever that's like. I do think that there would be some use case in the sense of like maybe when you're Trying to learn some like to understand that the pie chart is gonna be made up of like five l one part of it will be five little identical slices, the other part will be ten. And that that's the to understand it by doing it by hand, to understand the proportion of it. Could be useful for someone if that's how you learn. But stories or data visualization. There I'm not arguing at all the reporting. Uh this goes back to the story out of the Cleveland Plain dealer. They argued that they can get more stories now out of the reporting. And Paris objection at the time, but I think there is some level Writing the commodity crap. that that just gets you um SEO and and links out of volume is is the last dying gasp of mass media and scale. We've got to go to quality. But at some point some of the stuff that exists All right, let me ask it this way. For many years now, long before LLMs, uh the wire services have used computers to write financial results stories. The basic uh their EPS was this, the this the their their the that was that it's just a rewrite of the um um report they send out. There's no reporting involved. Maybe there should be, but there wasn't. In any case. It was just a rewrite of that. Is there any problem with that? Is it is just a commodity piece of work? Did that allow did that free up reporters to do more actual reporting? I mean, I think that's a specific use case because the reason why those commodity newswearers do it is because The entire value proposition of paying for a wire service or subscribing to Bloomberg Terminal is getting that information as quickly possible at speeds that are not replicable by a human. Um I mean I think For like If you're even thinking about it from a purely like business perspective, obviously zooming out from that sort of like commodity speed. I just I have to hope that if you are positioning yourself as a news company that wants subscribers or at the very least is trying to convince people they need to come to your site and see your ads in order to read your work. You have to hope that you're offering Something A value that is some sort of unique. capability that isn't just whatever Clawed Opus four point six can generate from a single prompt. Like what is gonna separate you from Every other website that does that. It's really about how you learn, isn't it? Um So here's a good question though. Once you learn uh For me it was really uh interesting to learn that. Numbers squared. was called squared because it referred to in fact a square. The area of a square. Is this multiplied the sides together. Those are no if a a s three by three by three by three square. The square of three is nine, which is the area of the square. And when you there's a process of learning that that you can't just What I just described, I don't know if you can learn that abstractly, but if you do it, if you write it on paper and you do it, you learn it. Now, do you ever need to do it again? Probably not. You don't need to keep making pie charts and keep making s cutting cylinders and bisecting cylinders and things, but it is valuable to do that initially. That's how you learn, right? And I but you don't have to write a thousand articles about Financial results. Think carefully about what we're offloading to these tools. Yeah. And what we lose. Yeah. But what we might also gain because the the the uh waste of time My favorite example of this was always the Buzzfeed Two color dress story. And I would go to journalism conferences and I would say, how many of you had your own version of that story? And every hand would go up. An utter waste of journalistic resources. Yeah, no kidding. For everyone to re BuzzVe's story was fine. It was cute. It was fun. It was what it was. They all rewrote that story so they could get their own SEO and their own social clicks. And it is a complete and utter waste of journalistic resource. Um Don't do it. I see that now when I do my uh beat check. There's so many duplications. I'm actually now having the AI do some deduplication. So I won't I but the trick is what's the best story? Maybe the is the original story the one you want? I guess it is. Sometimes but sometimes somebody else's. Or sometimes someone like has, yeah, an interesting angle. They have additional reporting that they're able to add to it. And I think that that's gotta be the differentiating factor for all of this. But I I think these are the questions that people across all these industries are gonna have to start asking themselves is like, yeah. Sure you can just like automate the most bare bones average of average version of it, but what value does that add? You need to be thinking about what is valuable about the work you're producing, not just how much work can you produce and how quickly can you do it. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis, Paris SmartNow. We're glad you're here. We especially thank our Club Twit members for making this show possible. Without you, there would be no intelligent machines. There would be practically no Twitch. You're not a member of uh Club Twit. please consider twit dot Tv slash club twit ad free versions of all the shows, access to the Discord special programming. That is only available to Club Twit members. Twit.tv slash Thank you. In advance. Alright, I've got our picks of the week next. Let's start our picks of the week as we always do with Paris Smart No. I'm shocked we're here. This is the fastest show we've done in years, I think, Leo. Are you okay? I am attempting to make the show shorter. I didn't I thought that was a bit. No, it's not a bit. I even vibe coded A uh a little uh clock. You'll see right here. Is it a clock? It's a clock. Wait, don't you have oh wait it's a clock that just says content with a ominous photo of a frog. The frog is my wallpaper. This is I just like that the the frog looks like it's judging you. It does exactly. For those l just listening, I should imagine a frog that is just looking deep into your soul. Yeah. Make it so that the frog is kind of holding it. That's a good idea. I will I will get Claude up. Well, Leo, my pick was gonna be the thing that you put as your pick, so I've got two kind of crappy picks instead. No no do the pick. No no you go first so you can steal my pick. Well then my pick is gonna be um This wonderful collection of obsolete sound Where did you find this? I'm so impressed that you came across on Blue Sky or Twitter and what's in one of my bookmark folders. So here's it. Don't look don't look at the screen. Let's see if Jeff will know this. Here's a sound, Jeff. What is this? Silence. That's what You got it. Good job. Let's play a random sound. It's not very loud, is it? I think I just hurt my stomach. Was that it? Oh no, it's working for me, but It is. It's just not very loud. It's just not fair. You have to click on the computer icon. It's just not very loud. So basically it is a Collection of disappearing sounds and sounds that have gone extinct. Um interference. Remember that pr. You'd hear Phillips type HM3210 coffee grinder. Like the sound of winding up a pocket watch. A cash reader. An Olivietti Dora typewriter. Oh, I had Olivetti. I love my Olivti. Is there a cigarette vending machine here? Oh, that's the sound you don't hear much anyway. You know that you get to pull the tabs. An old dial telephone to the repairs. This is great. Yeah, they've got an old cash register in there. Yeah, you don't hear this much. That's too quiet, yeah. Yeah, they're very quiet. I've got it turned all the way up. I can't Also, unfortunately, each sound in the project is recomposed and reimagined by artists. Oh no. So it's kind of now it's stuck. Stop it. That's the old dial telephone. Yeah, I mean I think part of the reason why it's been reimagined is so that they can play them all. Play with it. You know? So that they can actually have them and have them available for you to download. I like this notion that you that i you're gonna have a time when you just don't hear that sound anymore. Yeah, sounds well just. You know, disappear. I mean they have an attendance recorder in here. They've got a lot of coffee grinders. That's the drawer coming out of the cash register. Cash. What's that? Cash? Well as soon as Trump signs the dollar bill, that's it for me. I'm I'm going to coins. Oh wait a minute, he's on the coins too? Oh no. No pennies. I um I'll also shout out 'cause it was a partially stolen pick. Um Semaphore had a great piece this week about the old job in journalism, New York Post Runners, which are Jeff knows what those are. They are the reporters that every single day wake up, don't know where they're gonna go, but they've got they get a call and are told, Hey, you gotta get to the Bronx and knock on doors in this building and figure anybody who's witnessed this crime go. Is that still exist? Yes, and they were doing that's reporters. We did. But I mean, it was a r it was a reporter without an assignment. It was like a desk at the post that still exists to this day in in when a lot of other newsrooms don't have this kind of specific type of assignment thing. But it is It's a general assignment reporter. It's a general assignment reporter that no, but their specific job in the post is to like physic to a place as fast as possible and do something in person while someone else is writing something up for them. Yeah, well that's what my job was to be the person back at the office and rewrite. Call in the notes. Meanwhile I pull up the clips. I figure out what else is going on. I get the you know City Wire and all that, and then write a story on deadline. So I love this. The semaphore piece follows one runner from the post, Ruben Fenton. And he goes around and does a bunch of stuff. I mean, it's not just one thing in one day. Oh no. He's a busy guy. I mean There's a I've like met a couple of these people, um at various like parties or journalism events and the they always end up telling some kind of wacky story about a a a non insignificant part of their job is like When someone is murdered or dies in a very public way to track down their loved ones and bang on their door till they talk to you. Oh, I had to do that. When the plane crashed? Oh, you call the first names you get? Are the flight crews. Oh and so you end up calling the flights uh family and and you know the lie of journalism. I'm sure you want to tell people about your oh, Jesus, I feel ashamed of myself for that. So are are you often the person are you sometimes the person who has to tell them that that's that this happened? Wasn't supposed to be the case, but it's It's certainly possible given the They say um And this The nature of the runners' job is to operate inside legal and ethical gray zones. And needless to say, you can't do any of it from your desk. Quote, it's easier to hang up on someone. One of them told him. it's harder to slam a door in their face. I mean that's the kind of the purpose of this. Like yeah. I think that this is a trap I often fall into a lot 'cause I've grown up in the stage of journalism digital journalism where I'm like, Oh, well, you know, give somebody a call, text them, uh, you know, send the emails. If you wanna get the real stuff, you gotta go and knock on people's doors till they tell you no, don't I don't want to talk to you, and that's a lot harder. The other job was to get a photo of the dead person. Can I can I borrow that photo? Are there some people who love this job or is this a like paying your dues kind of thing. Oh yeah. The ethical gray zone. The ethical gray zone part sounds fun for some people, I'm sure. There was one guy we had at Chicago today, the paper that had a borrow. Um if it was really embarrassed, he would ask anybody any question. It was like let Mikey try it. Um You would send him out and he would he would ask anything of anybody the rest of us wouldn't want to do. I mean there are certainly some reporters that like that is their whole edge is they have no sense of Shame. So I would say social shame or empathy or uh human versus world, they will ask Any question no matter how deeply uncomfortable it makes someone or how s uh re large of a reaction it gets from them that could be negative, it could potentially I am always Deeply uh concerned and anxious and wrought with guilt that I am messing someone up or re traumatizing them by not asking about something in the right way. No, and then that means I get worse stories. Uh a a t a tweet that you fell for that was an April Fool's tweet from the Nestle. Okay, I'm mad about this actually. Which is I'm the biggest fan of Crunch bars. Uh it's a thing my friends make fun of me for. If they're going to Bodega and you get something I'm like, please give me a crunch bar. If I'm at the movie theater, I want to get a thing of Buncha Crunch and have a little But a bunch of crunch and some popcorn. And so I like chunkies. Do you ever have a chunky? We're gonna get there. We've gotta I've gotta one track mine. I saw this tweet. Important to note, this tweet posted March 30th, 1013 AM. It's not April Fool's Day. And so I got my hopes up. It's a tree that says You've been pairing Buncha Crunch with popcorn for years. Now it gets its rightful spot in the concession stand, introducing the Buncha Crunch concession dispenser experience coming soon. It mixes Buncha Crun in with your popcorn, which would be ideal because you wouldn't have to But no. It was just a li it was an April Fool's lie, not a jape, not a jest, because it does not come on April Fool's Day. And I refuse to be considered an April fool. Ha ha ha. I hate it's my least favorite day of the year. I hate it. I hate it. I actually uh inspired by one of our club twit members asked Claude to come up with the base best April Fool's pranks. Uh for the year. For this year. Uh and their work m more than I thought. Uh, Tom's guide had an a AI powered alarm clock that wakes you up by automatically brewing eight o'clock coffee. At age. Said this year's pranks lean heavily into the blurred line between fake and real. Raising Cain's enlisted McKenna Grace to unveil Cain's sauce. Uh Arco golf analytics announced smart pants and intelligent golf apparel system. With advanced biometric monitoring and adaptive climate control. The Royal Albert Hall announced a Gen Z youth initiative. Let them cook. I'm not sure what that what that means. T Mobile had uh a cologne that smells like a phone. Here is uh Uh AI sticker printing machine for Fido. It's called pet mode. People kept sending me uh links to a Indian fitness uh company or like Some sort of wellness brand that announced a protein condom. Jeez. That makes sense. Was there lead in it is the question. Yeah, put lead in your pencil. Our very serious legit ranking of the best five products Apple's ever made. These are all from Tom's guide. Here's Yahoo. It's no more scrolling interface. Get it. Scroll stopper it's available in the TikTok shop. Oh, it's a thing you put on your thumb. So you can't you can't scroll anymore. It's a chastity belt for your thumb. It's a chastity belt for your thumb. No more scrolling. Here's the smart golf pants. Uh. That's not a joke. That's April Fool's launch. Big head mode. Uh, that's actually real in uh Fortnite. Yeah, a lot of games have big head modes. The big thing. Yeah. We need to like it's a big head. A big six speed manual shifter for your phone. Bitmo Labs. Anyway, uh we're glad we didn't have to do any April Fool's jokes uh today. Yeah. Jeff, your pick of the week. Well, I just want to say that tonight is the last night. Whatever that is, it is disgusting. I don't know. Tomorrow I maybe I should record this for Paris. Tomorrow nurse Cindy is coming to take the foot and a half long Um catheter out of my arm. But that's good news because you're getting better. Yeah, I'm not looking forward. I'm looking forward to being gone. So wait a minute, it's it's in un and it goes on. It goes from here. All the way up right over the heart because that's where the the the volume the the speed is the fastest. So the stuff will mix in. This is a pressure bulb that hooks into my thing. And yeah. I have to spritz in uh saline. I have to rub it with alcohol. I've been doing this for ten weeks. Ten weeks. Glad you're feeling better. Somebody since I got to the hospital. Ten weeks ago you podcasted from the hospital? Yeah. That's crazy. Time flies. In my Hospital. Down. I have no shame. All right, for a pick. Uh college instructor turns to typewriters to curb AI written work. Okay. Yeah. Great. This is a Cornell. Wow. Oh, but they have to do it in German, which is that's really cruel and sure. It's doubly because the German typewriter key key keyboard is actually different. The Z is very important. Look at them. They're really struggling. So that's why it's called return. Super. Yeah. Did you ever use typewriters as a normal thing, Barry? I think we talked about this. Never, right? I mean, not as a normal thing as in like in my childhood, however, in a In college, uh whenever I was studying abroad in France, I would often go to the uh um Shakespeare's uh Cafe, whatever it's called. Um and they had type Shakespeare and Company, they had typewriters there. And so during a time where I was at my most intolerable and I had to like translate poems into French for some assignment, I would translate them instead of writing them out, I would have them typewritten on there. And then my uh teacher would always professor would give them back and be like I can't mark this up. It's too pretty. Um which I always thought was kinda funny. We did a uh big head mode for April Fool's Day uh one year in our Twit Studios. There's Father Robert and me. With our big heads. Those heads are pretty large. This is when we had the technology. My God. Look at that studio. You never saw this studio, did you, Paris? This studio was amazing. This is amazing. I never saw any studio in person. Yeah. When are you coming to New York and what studio are we gonna book here? Oh yeah, we gotta get a studio to do the show. We need to have like three costume changes. We've got to have corn shirts, we've got to have hospital gowns, some third thing. Maybe you can do big head. Closes at like one thirty when he runs out. We should be able to do it in his place, right? Uh yeah, I think so. Yeah. We could do it. But do we have the lighting and set up? Does he have Ethernet connection in there? Supposedly built a Studio in the in the restaurant. Yeah, he was gonna fix sandwiches in the window, wasn't he? Yeah, he was. And stream it all. That never really happened. No. You know why? It was too much work. They had told me to way too ambitious. That was so ambitious. Well no. I mean they didn't know they were gonna be selling sandwiches but by the you know, s every second another sandwich, so Um That is about it for this show. I wish we had the big head mode now. I d we don't have a TriCaster anymore. That was back in the day when we That's how I do it. It's actually pretty funny. Ha ha. Uh we do this show every Wednesday right about two PM Pacific, five PM Eastern. That's twenty one hundred UTC. You can watch us if you're in the club in the club twit discord. Otherwise watch on Twitch. YouTube, X, Facebook, LinkedIn. Kick. After the fact on demand versions of the show at twit.tv slash im. There's an intelligent machines channel on YouTube for the video. Or you could subscribe in your favorite podcast client. You'll get it automatically as soon as we are done. You will find Paris Martinot. At uh the wonderful consumer reports are Have you filed lately or are you working on some massive expose? You know it's a great question, Leo. It's a great question with great answers. Um. I mean There'll be a I'm working on a couple different stories that have weirdly competing timelines, but Things will come out when they come out. Yeah. When they're not. Okay. That's a no non answer answer as they say in the business. Yep. Yep. Uh anyway, thank you, Paris, for being here. Paris dot NYC. We can work our how did your secretly British Saturday go? It didn't happen, I'm sorry. It needs to happen. No, it doesn't. No. You need to do things you enjoy. I accompany my friend to watch him get a tattoo instead. Oh my god. This week could be Oh my Were you there just for moral support or did you join. I was, but I might I might get a tattoo this weekend. I don't know. And what would you get if you got a tattoo? I mean, that's the question. It's gonna be kind of an a walk in situation. We'll see. I need a week. This is something you're gonna have for the rest of your life. Yeah, turning into a dad. And you're gonna just walk in and choose at random though? Isn't that kind of fun? Does it need to be meaningful? Yeah. Leo regrets his. Yeah, but you can't s it' that's where the sun literally don't shine. I already have a tattoo. So you know what I think you have I've seen I saw one in a picture of you there's one in your bowie. It's a David Bowie? Mm-hmm. Ziggy. Ziggy Star Dustin. Yeah, I can't pull my arm my shirt up farth enough, but it is the Ziggy Start Us. And why did you get David that's a very interesting thing for a person of your age to get. He's one of my favorite artists of all time. Really? Mm-hmm. Interesting. I think just an incredible creative. I'm a fan. I'm a fan. Uh He used to watch our T V show. He was a fan of uh the screensavers. Okay. It's delightful. Yeah. Well that's uh that's a that's a So maybe you could get Kiss on the other bicep. Get Gene Simmons or something. No. This arm I wanna do a full s like incorporated sleeve that I plan out, but this arm I wanna do more like a little guy tattoo. What about your act career? No. Yeah, what about your acting career? All the actors have tattoos now. They do. It's true. True. Jeff does not ha is the only person who's gonna be a good uh differentiation. This is the biggest point of conflict in our podcast history. I think is you two being genuine disappointed. Dismayed. Dismayed by my pet plans. As your parents, no doubt, would be as we I really wanna Part of the thing is I wanna find uh someone for the I wanna do that. More medieval woodcut style tattoos. Oh, like a Pentaman tattoo. Why don't you get Gutenberg. You should have Gutenberg. That's actually a very interesting one. Hey, get a linetic. Jeff, promote his book. Put the cover up. Put the cover up. It's very intricate. So when you go uh to the tattoo artist, do you go in with materials or does he have a book that you Well so n this is the thing is I've normally been the sort of person that would only my did we did to like pitch it to a tattoo artist. We worked with it, they like had some, you know Examples for it look like we decided on it. Um But I've been mean to get more tattoos for the last like nine years, but never have because I'm like, Well, like I don't know what to do, don't pitch it. How old were you when you got David Bowie? Uh twenty. Really? Do your parents have tattoos, if I may ask? No. No, of course not. What did they think about you getting a tattoo? It's her generation. They were dismayed. They w they probably have the exact same reaction. The often I'll see them and they'll be like Do you still feel okay with your decision to get a tattoo? And I'm like, Yeah. I do, actually, thanks. Yours is fairly innocuous. Paul has a good suggestion in our club Twit you should get your New York City tree maintenance certificate tattooed. So that you'd always have it available. In case of questions. A certified tree maintainer. Yeah. You know, nice looking um cert. My editor. at work had heard me bragging about it and has signed up and is gonna be a licensed pr citizen tree pruner as well. Wow. Wow. You're starting a movement. You know the tattoo gun. The tattooed device? was actually uh a a uh successor to an invention by Edison. That was meant to create stencils to duplicate documents. Ooh On your wrist And that didn't work, but instead it puts little holes in your skin. I'm I'm at Trees New York trying to find the if they have a citizen pruner kind of uh license or anything. I mean I could just get like the parking logo with London. It's a London plain tree leaf, which is uh That's a good that's a good look. That's a very good thing. New York Yeah, I think that'd be good. That would be it would say you're New Yorkers. It looks a little bit like a hypodermic. inserting itself into a cancer cell. But you know, other than that. So when when Leo does finally come to New York, we have to, I think, take him to your tattoo parlor to get a clawed logo. Let's get IM tattooed. Let's all get brains tattooed. Yeah, that could be fun. I would do that. I would do it. I would do that. That would be pretty funny. Honey, um Listen, what else is what else are you gonna do with your skin? Yeah, what else you gonna do? Jeff Jarvis's new book, Hot Type. Is uh available for pre order. You go to Jeff Jarvis dot com and you could also get the Gutenberg parenthesis, which is fabulous at paperback. Magazine, his history of the magazine. The Web We Weave, he's written many books. And uh and soon he's gonna uh be um editing a series of Books about AI, which is pretty darn exciting. Intelligence, AI, and Humanity, Bloomsbury. Nice. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Paris. Shout out to everybody sending me woodcut and cool medieval tattoo recommendations that are in New York City. Keep 'em going, guys, 'cause this is hard to find the tattoo artists on the internet. We are all going to get when we go to uh New York City, uh, to celebrate intelligent machines are all gonna get this tattoo. Yeah. Oh Jesus. Oh boy. That's just that would take a long time, wouldn't it? We need something simpler. It's got a c Corvid detective in here. Oh Corvids, of course, are crows. Yeah. Yeah. Really enjoy it. Adam Savage has a ruler tattooed on him so he can measure things with his forearm. Slowly goes out of scale though, right? Slowly goes out of scale. Yeah, but you know, don't we all I think it's kinda ugly, to be honest. Uh I mean it's not I've seen a lot cuter ones. There's some a minimalist like a little line. Pd P eight switches. I'm gonna get the Bowie uh Lightning, right? On my face. Only I can you can kind of see it if I pull up here ish. You know, it's it's a good tattoo. It's good. You should get one. I the I actually am impressed. That uh you would uh Be so Sophisticated as a young person. How much did it hurt? It feels like a it's kind of a prickly vibration. It's like a I mean this was just a line, a simple line tattoo, so it frankly didn't really hurt at all, is what I would describe. But I think a little bit more in depth one. Might hurt more. It hurts when you fill when you fill it in, it's that's when it hurts if you want to color it. Mm-hmm Whose hand did you hold? I held uh Jason's hand, Jason's Panthers' hand. He had I met him because he had a twit tattoo on his inner inner wrist. And he was my producer for some years and uh he was there. And I held his hand and gritted my teeth as I Subjected myself. Lisa screamed at you. Yeah, she was not happy. The ultimate humiliation. She's the only one who sees it, so it's I don't see it. Uh thank you everybody for joining us. I'm sorry about this last bit. Uh but I hope you will come back. We will see you next time. Intelligent machines. Bye bye. Hi, I'm Leo Laporte, host of This Week in Tech and many other shows on the Twit Podcast Network. Can you believe it 2026 is around the corner, so this, my friends, is the best time. Grow your brand with Twit. Nobody understands the tech audience. We love our audience, and we know how to effectively message to them. We develop genuine relationships. Brands creating authentic promotions that resonate with our highly engaged community of tech enthusiasts. You know, over 90% of Twit's audience is involved in their company's tech and IT decision making. Night Can you believe that 90%, 88%? Actually a purchase Based on Twit postred ed. No one comes close. best at this. As one Twit fan said, I've bought from Twit TV sponsors because I trust Leo. And his team's knowledge of the latest in tech, if Twit supports it, I know I can trust it. Cannot buy trust like that. Well actually you can. 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