Picks of the Week and Closing

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff's here. Paris is here. Our guest, Daniel Meisler, is a 24-year security expert, but also a YouTube host on unsupervised learning and an AI guru. We're going to talk about the new anthropic model mythos they say it's too dangerous to be released is it we'll find out next podcasts you love from people you trust this is Twitch . This is Intelligent Machines with Jeff Jarvis and Paris Martinau, episode 865, recorded Wednesday, April 8th, 2026 , Mythic. It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we talk about AI, robotics, and all the smart little doodads surrounding us all these days. Paris Martin knows here, investigative reporter for consumer reports and his brightly sunlit in her brightly sunlit Brooklyn apartment. Yeah, it's getting brighter and brighter here in New York, and that's great for me, a person who needs sunlight to feel happiness, but bad for me a person who podcasts from five to eight PM Wow Yeah. Paris pulls no punches, Daniel. You'll understand that in a moment. Uh also here, Jeff Jarvis, author of The Gutenberg Parenthesis magazine and his new book Hot Type coming out in July. You can get that all at Jeff Jarvis.com. And of course, Professor Emeritus of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School. At the City University of New York. There we go. I thought we'd miss it. I I you know, I was gonna bypass it and I decided to do it. I sensed I sensed you were on you were at a fork on the window. I was on my way. I was on my way Hey, I I'm very excited about uh our guest uh this week. I've been watching his uh YouTube channel for quite some time. I've installed a number of his tools for uh AI . Um he is uh and I want to thank uh Larry Gold in our uh Discord club for making the connection because I've been trying to get a hold of Daniel Meessler to get him on the show for some time. Daniel, uh thrilled to have you. Let me give you a little bit of his CV because it's it's so interesting. He was a infantryman for the 101st Airborne Division, became an intelligence expert for his battalion, has been a security uh guru at a number of companies, some you might have heard of, like Apple, Robinhood, HP . His uh company now, unsupervised learning is the name of his uh YouTube channel, but also of uh his uh a company that advises uh companies on cybersecurity and AI. And I am thrilled to have Daniel on the show. I've used uh your PAI for some time with my Claude Code, which is your personal assistant uh software, some skills that are really incredible. Your fabric, uh which you've done you did some time ago actually, but is uh still really, really good. You told me PAI is gonna be in version five soon. That's exciting. Yeah, hopefully this week. Yeah. Yeah. Um, and uh let's see what else. Telos, which is an interesting skill that came along with PAI, which was uh kind of about uh exploring your worldview and how you feel about things and stuff. And I it was a quite a fun exercise to uh go through that. Daniel, welcome to Intelligent Machines. Thank you for having me. It's a tremendous honor. Yeah. I can't remember when I s started watching you originally, but uh had to be in nineties, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was it was like actual actual TV and everything. Actual television. Yeah, you and Chris Perillo. Yeah. Absolutely. That's right. Yeah. On uh tech TV. Yeah. Uh you actually have been blogging since that time, since nineteen ninety nine. There's a lot of good posts on your blog. Um let me uh start because uh there was a very big story. Actually I was thrilled to know that we were gonna get you on today because yesterday, Anthropic kind of sc threw everything up in the air, scrambled everything with a r announcement of something we'd knew or had heard or guessed was coming, a new model it calls mythos . Great name, by the way. I'll just put that out there. Capybara does not carry the same word. Next week, uh OpenAI is going to release Spud. So it could be worse. Of course they are. It sits on the couch . We don't know how capable Spud would be, but Anthropic has uh raised some alarms about Mythos . Uh they did release benchmarks that made it look significantly better than what is clearly the premier AI right now, Opus four point six. Uh in some cases twice as good and software benchmarks, software engineering benchmarks, fifty percent better? I mean these are massive improvements. And what Anthropic have it Well what Anthropic has said and that you know, is it is it market ing? I don't know. Is it real? Is this uh what they have been doing with it over the last few weeks is setting it uh on uh open source software operating systems and browsers looking for zero days for flaws. They claim to have found more than a thousand uh severe flaws, some of uh a flaw in OpenBSD, they've been around for 27 years, flaws in uh you know, serio,us uh C V ten exploits in some very well known software, and they say if we release this to the public now, the bad guys will use it to take over the world . And so what they've decided to do is release it in a very limited way to some very big companies. It's Project Darkwing. Glasswing, I think. Glasswing, I'm sorry. And uh the which is a moth, right? I think it's a moth. Um the idea is we're gonna let these companies fix their zero days using mythos before we let anybody else have they ever gotta well I can I two questions before we get into it, just quickly so I understand the background here. One, do they plan to ever release it to the public? It's unknown. And two , is this really good at security because it was trained in that way, or is it just because a model this powerful will inevitably be this good at security? Uh in other words, uh oh. This is a great question for Daniel because you you posted both of those, yeah. Yeah. So tell us. Yeah, yeah. So um I think they have said already that they intend to have some of the features and capabilities come to future models. So um future versions of uh Opus . So they're gonna bring some stuff over from um from Mythos into Opus . Uh they don't have any direct plans right now, I don't think, to release Mythos itself. Um, but to your second question, which I think is super, super important , it is not trained on cybersecurity. It's just a regular model. They they're only focusing on the cybersecurity because they're super worried about it. Right. Because that's one capability that's like it just produces a visceral impact in us to think about uh with the hacking stuff. But also, yeah, you can actually just go hack stuff with it. But um I find it extremely significant that it's just better across the board at work in general and cybersecurity is just work. Right. So if we're worried about like knowledge workers being replaced potentially. Paris. Well, it just got that much better at everything, not just cybersecurity. So do you think this is genuine that this is this coming from anthropic is not just marketing material, that it is a a genuinely on the precipice of IPOing. It does I mean to play devil's action. Well that's right. No, that's why you might suspect it. Yeah, no, that's why you might suspect it. I I believe it. Um I've not ever seen them in in terms of morality, I've not seen them sort of misstep. I've believed Dario since the very beginning that he is actually concerned. Um everything, the way they set up the company, the way they do their marketing, they were the first to release all these reports showing like their the ugliness, the things that went wrong. They started this trend, which other companies then started following. Have any reason to doubt that the model is actually this good? Daniel, to follow up on the on the on the discussion we just had a minute ago though. Um if if because these models leapfrog each other, is there a ticking time bomb here that says that that whoever's whether it's deep seek or whether it's Google or whoever it is, um that when their model gets this powerful, it will also be this good at cybersecurity. Ergo, cybersecurity is borked. Permanent ergo cyber attacks for everyone. Yeah, so where where does that take us just at a at a at a high level? Yeah, yeah. Um yes. I mean there's multiple ways that this stuff seeps into everything else. So uh one is um the thing can be distilled as soon as it becomes available or visible in any sort of way. There could be leaks um inside the researcher community. The distillment would happen from other AI companies, in fact, uh Ethropics accused Chinese AI companies, Alibaba and Z AI and others, of doing exactly that and training their models by asking Claude, using Claude to train their models. So if if if it's a really good model, it could propagate, in other words, into Quen and and uh GLM and and all these others. So that would be leak number one. What's what's the other? So go ahead. Yeah, and uh the others are I mean, community of like researchers and stuff, it tends to be tight knit. It seems like what we've seen over the last few years is that whenever a great idea happens, it's supposed to be behind closed doors, like cordoned off from everyone, but somehow the world learns about it like three to six months later. Somehow it's in all the models, somehow all the competitors seem to have it it. So's almost like it it could be like a co-developing of like calculus with like Newton and or whoever the other guy was. Where it just the right time. Was it Leibniz? Yeah. Leibniz it's just like the right time for the idea. It could be that, or it could be that they're they're all going to the same parties and they're all talking, or it could be security leaks, but either way, what we've seen is that just a few months afterwards it starts There doesn't seem to be much secret sauce in AI, partly because it's all based in the same, you know, five papers. Uh and everybody who's working with Transformers basically understands what's going on. Do you think there's any secret thoughts sauce in mythos? Is it is it beyond RL? Is it beyond massive compute? I mean, I don't know for sure. I I would say there probably is secret sauce. I mean, I I think the the trick with the secret sauce though is um it'll be something weird like you know if you actually just transpose these numbers and you just like let do three iterations instead of five. Right. Do five instead of three. That is like a few words that someone can say to someone else, and they get on Slack and they text their friends and suddenly that's being done in their lab, and suddenly that comes out in their thing. So it's like it's a combination of smaller little tricks, and they accumulate into these big advantages. Um that's the way I currently understand it. I think there's also a sense among the the the scientists that are doing this that it should be more open, that it no sh no one company should have complete control of this. And now I think i if mythos lives up to its mythos, uh there there's good reason to think that. I mean uh this is too dangerous for one company to control. But I think there also could be an argument made that it's like How do we handle that, Dan? How do you suddenly handle like if every every yokel that could use chat GPT or Claude could suddenly uh be in control of a very sophisticated cyber attack. Yeah, exactly. I I mean yeah it's it's dangerous for one company to have it. The only thing more dangerous is for every company to have it. It's like the atomic bomb. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing I'm actually worried about, and this is one I'm worried about an actual event, but there's um smaller things that could go really, really crazy and just like change everything overnight. Somebody could have an open source model or claim that they got it from one of the main models. But there could be let's say there's uh you know, heaven forbid forbid some sort of like attack. Um let's say an entire apartment building smells a smell and there's a nine one one call and everyone gets flooded out of the bu ilding. They all get oxygen outside. And it's like, oh, now there's a rumor. It was a terrorist event. It was a chemical attack. It was a biological attack. Then they do some sort of research and they found out um there was an AI model involved . In this current climate, how close do you think we are to the government saying AI is now able to create biological attacks or whatever. Therefore, open AI and Anthropic now belong to the government and hugging face is now illegal, and open source models and open source development is now illegal. Like I don't think we are that far away. We are one news story away, which by the way, could be completely true, could be partially true, or it could just be kind of like someone ran with the story. Yeah, and they like they maybe they searched it and it came back with an answer, but that's not what they actually made. And it could be that the thing that they smelled in there was they tried to combine the chemicals, but it actually was just ammonia, like not even uh dangerous. You know what I mean? But just think of like how how much hype and how much fear this could spawn . And with the current situation like politically government wise worldwide, I just think there's a very high chance of, you know, things going crazy policy It does seem like if mythos is as dangerous as it as anthropic is claiming, it's actually we should say, and you said this, it's it's both. It's incredi bly powerful for security uh uh experts. It's a it's a tool for finding zero days. They found thousands already in a few weeks, but the same tool can be used to find zero days for bad guys too. I would not be at all surprised if government stepped in and said, we need to control this. And in fact, I think that in a normal situ we have a little bit of a different kind of government right now, but in a normal situation, I would applaud that. That would be the right thing. The people should control this, not uh a single uh company. The printing press is very dangerous. Somebody has to control it. The the the Pope must own this, and no one else can use it but the project. Jeff is an expert on the printing press, we should point out Daniel might be wondering why you're invoking the Pope. Interesting. But this is something they said when Gutenberg invented the the printing press. And China's more dangerous. China's gonna go Ch China's now sitting saying uh hello, where is our mythos ? Yes. So fine, it's controlled for now. But once it's out there and it will be out there, or once somebody else catches up , there's no cybersecurity anymore. Yeah, uh I I think what ends up happening is the um what what it ends up doing is raising the amount of security uh just worldwide. Because um it it's kind of like uh back in the day you could have uh open ports, you could have a database sitting on the internet wide open. Right. You could have a wide open web server. And like nothing would happen. That was what the days. Yeah. And then the the tooling started getting better and better and pretty soon it would be like within a few hours or a couple of days you would get compromised. And now it's a matter of seconds, right? So it's just like once the attacks are so constant , um it'll be kind of like a battlefield. You can't walk out into a battlefield without getting shot, and that's what it'll look like to have any infrastructure publicly at all. Um so things will just drop offline if they're not highly secure. Um but the the problem is the transition between the current state and then right? Because that that's a nice sort of clean state, clean story. But we gotta go through a whole lot of compromise uh before then. And unfortunately a lot of those things are like power structures and lights and you know uh desalinization and stuff like that. So it's like yeah, there's lotta a lot of critical infrastructure involved. We're talking to Daniel Meesler. Am I saying your name right, Daniel Meissler? Yeah, that's right. Okay. He runs unsupervised learning. It's a great YouTube channel, highly recommend it. Uh ul .live is his uh website, but it has a number of tools you might be interested in, including upgrade to human 3.0. I think this is kind of uh what he's been focused on lately. Uh how AI is going to change the workplace, how it's going to change business, and how to prepare for uh this uh upcoming uh change. And it is, I think it is accelerating. I almost feel like it's exponential at this point. Uh in fact that may be really the secret of mythos is they used Claude to develop Claude and uh and that's what we always expected. That's what Ray Kurzweil was always talking about is that once it starts self improving, it's gonna uh happen much more quickly than it would if humans were doing it. What a uh you you mentioned this in your tweet. What what does this mean for work ? Yeah, I mean that's what I'm fundamentally worried about. I'm it it means a lot for work. I mean, if you were to fully roll out Opus to everyone, or it would were to be open source or whatever, and 95% is good, fully rolling it out, I think massively hurts jobs. But the the better the model itself gets, the less scaffolding it needs. So it's like you have the intelligence of the model itself, and then you have the intelligence of the overall system with the scaffolding. So either way, we're going to have massive work replacement in my opinion over the course of two, five, ten years. Um, but when you have a jump like this, it it just needs less information to do its job. And it just accelerates everything. It just it really does. Um I mean, my my issue is like, how does some random person who's a uh knowledge worker who makes like ninety-four thousand dollars and their job is like sending emails, writing reports, like you know, doing doing analysis, data analysis and that kind of thing. How does that compare when they're making $94,000? They have a 40 hours that they're doing their job. And pretty soon it's gonna be like $10 or $100 or a thousand dollars to replace them for the year. And it just works twenty-four-seven. And like what company is not gonna wanna do this? It's just frightening to me, which is why I'm talking about the human three point oh stuff, which is why are we doing these corporate jobs in the first place? We've been making fun of these corporate jobs for decades because we didn't like them. Right. And now we're like, you know, grabbing onto them. Um we're like we gotta pay rent. That's why, Daniel, right? Of course of course that's why. I understand that. Um I'm just trying to simultaneously warn about how bad this disruption is going to be, but also say on the other side of this, we should all be broadcasting, having our capabilities, sharing them with others, and then the value is between human to human. Why do we have all these corporations in the middle? So that's what I'm excited about. But I just think it's going to be rough in the transition. You say creators rise, workers fall. Yeah. Yeah. So be a creator. What does that mean though? Not everybody's gonna have a podcast or uh have a rock band. What does it mean in this context? So so and that's where that whole tel os thing comes in is like um i I I like to imagine this visiting alien who like meets you in a field or something and it's like hey I've been to fourteen uh quadrillion uh species and planets or whatever. And I'm just want to ask you you what're about. And so if this alien asks everyone on the planet this question, too many people in my opinion on the planet will be like, I I have no idea what you're talking about. I just don't know what you mean. Like what do you mean who am I? And it's like, well, I I work at this job, I do this thing. So they can describe the tasks, but they're not really describing like the deep center of who they are. Because they they were just never challenged to do this. And so this is what the whole T Los thing is about is like, who are you actually? Like, what did you used to enjoy when you were a child? What are you curious about? Like, what could you be if you had all the resources and you weren't afraid? And to me, that's like the activated state that I think we should try to get to. So when I say creator, that's just currently, what we call it. But I think in a healthy society on a healthy planet or whatever, like this would just be default. hundreds or thousands of years, however long it's been, to be like, your job is to work for Mrs. Johnson . Your job is to improve her PowerPoint, right? Because she is the special person you are not, right, and I just think that fundamental switch has to click in people's minds that wait a minute, I can also have a podcast, and it doesn't need to be technical, it doesn't need to be non-technical, it could be just whatever it is that gets you excited. That's what you broadcast, that's what you put into the world, and that's what other people connect with. And then there's value exchange. I think that's how things should work. That's right . Instead of uh focusing on the bottom of the pyramid, just getting survival, it's getting to the top and actualizing your true self. You've actually written software to do this. What fa that's what fabric is kind of all about, right? Yeah, fabric was a bunch of prompts um that can help you with that. Uh thirty thousand plus GitHub stars. Yeah, that that went pretty crazy. That was that was in uh twenty-four. Um that was before AI really took off even . Yeah. Yeah. Right? Era. Yeah, I think the biggest idea there was the um the markdown for the prompts and c clear thinking going into clear writing and just having the markdown be the official format. 'Cause at the time I think Anthropic and everyone else was pushing like X ML. And I was like, why do we have why do we have script tags involved? Let's let's use unreadable. Yeah, exactly. Turns out AI uh likes Markdown too, which is great. It can read XML fine, but it likes Markdown too. Uh it's not, by the way, Daniel's biggest project. Uh your biggest GitHub project's probably Seclists, which you did for Cali Linux with uh 70,000 uh GitHub. Yeah, that's uh myself and uh Jason Haddock's uh put that together. And people who use Cali will know that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's very cool. Um what if you were a young person in college uh today, we're thinking about going to college, a high school. Do you have kids? I don't. Yeah. If you had kids who were in high school right now, what would you be telling them to do? Uh pretty much the same thing. Um I I think the most important thing I would be trying to push them towards is getting them excited about something. Not necessarily AI. No, no, no, no. Just just something in life. It doesn't even not even technical. It could be basket weaving, it could be gardening, just anything that they could grab onto, totally love and totally dive into, because that curiosity is what produces the expertise. Yeah. That's what I told my kids. I will tell you, Daniel, it works. Yeah, because a lot of a lot of kids um remember we used to complain about this like five years ago. The kids would say, I want to be a YouTuber. Um but you can't get on YouTube and do YouTube. There's no such thing as doing YouTube. You have to talk about a thing. And the thing ideally you would be excited about. Right. And it turns out if you're excited about anything, people will listen. And maybe maybe they won't, but at least it's interesting because they it's being broadcast to them. They're hearing enthusiasm, right? They're hear hearing humanity coming from you. Um and they won't hate their life because they'll be actualized. . Yeah Yeah. And I've been excited about this with like um these new approaches to education that have like this AI component. But I love the mixture of you still have a human teacher there. So curriculum can be handled and optimized by AI, but the job of the teacher is to be the the shepherd for the student. The teacher is locked onto the student to hit them with different things until it activates them. Then you can hit them with curriculum or whatever, but the most important thing is to get them involved and curious and thriving. So I think that's a really cool model . Um I feel like you know, I I have been saying on this show that uh the world changed for me November twenty-fourth of last year when Opuspose fo forur five came out, and there was a discontinuity. Suddenly, what was kind of a fun toy and foo and interesting became a little bit uh impressive. Uh I have a feeling we're on an even bigger jump. Uh I it could be Mythos is completely to pump the stock. I I know Paris that that's that's a real possibility. There are people who think it. George Hotz thinks it. Uh there are quite a few people who think that. Really? Yeah. Um and I was talking to Jeff Atwood uh the other day. He said anthropic is like meta but but a cult . And and I thought that was kind of interesting uh too. There is a cultish feel about anthropic. We're gonna talk about I would say the same thing could be said about AI open AI as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. But I wonder if they become a cult because they've stared into the abyss, right? They're kind of they've seen something that is a little different. No? No, you don't buy that. I think rank their their hubris and believing that they are all powerful and they can chest beat and build this thing. And that's part of the, that's that's part of my question about mythos. Is it um we have just built something so powerful that the world that the world's in danger and you better be grateful it's in our hand I mean how much of this is is the hubris? It's the same with with with Sam Altman and his uh manifesto about how to run all governments in the whole world. There's a lot of hubris uh built into that. Yeah, I I won't obviously say anyone's name here, but um so I was talking to a friend who uh worked at Anthropic. And um this was a while back and I was like he was like, yeah, I just want to um you know do a good job here. I'm like, well it's gonna be amazing for your resume. Like the next place you go, they see Anthropic on the resume, like that's great that you have it. And he's like, um, no, th this will actually uh be my last job . And um I'm like and and I'm like, oh, that's amazing, right? 'Cause w he he didn't want to talk comp or anything like that. I'm like, that's tremendous, you got paid that much, it's amazing. And he just looks at me and he goes, No, that's not why . And I'm like the last job. I'm like, oh that's the abyss. Because he can't he can't reveal anything, right? So he can't give anything like that, but it's just like the mindset . Um that he had while he was there. Um I do think it is because they are seeing things, uh honestly . Yeah, that I mean presumably they're seeing stuff beyond even Mythos, right? I mean Oh yeah, no questi on. Yeah. Yeah. Uh uh if we look at the this is the from the the system card, the and of course this comes out of anthropic, but the benchmarks are kind of off the charts. I mean we've seen gradual, somewhat more gradual improvement uh on the benchmarks as models come out, but this one is a big leap forward. Yeah . Yeah, it it's that's a tremendous jump. Um I I agree with you. I think uh GPT four chat GPT was a the moment. Right. That was the first moment. Yeah. And y I think you're right, uh Leo, it was right about um end of November or middle of December. Um and I would characterize it actually as a clawed code moment. Yeah, I think you're right. Um I I think it was code. Yeah. It was powered by the the newer um what was it four five at the time? Opus? Yeah, it was four five. But it was everyone figuring out the harness was actually that good. And they just started pumping out apps. Um I actually had like a few weeks there where I seriously just could not sleep. Yep. It was really troubling. I was just like, what is gonna happen now? Cause everyone can make everything. Yeah. And and it's really weird because I'm simultaneously it's like I'm manic during the day for all the positive that can come from this. And then in the evening I start getting news. And the news comes in as it's like, oh here's the layoffs, here's the bombs being dropped, and I'm like, okay, I'm sad for humanity. Like what's going on? Yep . And then there's the next morning. It starts all over again. Yeah, exactly. Uh yeah, I I I think y you you kinda nailed it when you said uh, you know, maybe there's uh light at the end of the tunnel, there's a pot of gold in the end of the rainbow, but on the way it's going to be incredibly disruptive. And I I feel like the disruption is is ha is just about to to take off. I don't know what's gonna happen with mythos. I think uh anthropic was very smart . If you believe it, which I I I tend to, I think they're very smart not to release it I mean I don't think they could release it publicly. Um do you think OpenAI's next model, this uh Spud that the rumors are maybe as soon as next week, watch out Spud is here will be hope they have a better name. No one will take it serious if it's called Spud. Uh No, no, I'm sure they'll have a cool name. Um I don't know. I I've heard it's probably gonna be uh somewhere around close. Um but I don't know I don't know that they just have something hanging out nearby that they're like okay I guess we gotta release the really good one. There's every possibility that they release it and it's just kind of slightly better than five four. Right. And it fizzles and there's also a possibility that it it's as good or better than Mythos. Like who knows? What a w wild time. Yeah. Uh to be alive, you know. Um uh it's very it's all very interesting. Uh we it's it's it's funny. I've uh lately uh when I go to X, I I've been kind of avoided X, but because a lot of the people like you are on X and a lot of the AI information is on X, you kind of have to go there. And fortunately, X on mobile has a filter. And lately I've been checking Iran war and AI. And the really weird disconnect between one post and another. You feel like we are in a v a crucible, uh that something's gonna come out of it. And I hope it's something good. That's all I can say. I hope it's something good. I hope it's not a weird dystopia. But thank goodness there are people like you, Daniel, who are working uh to help us move into uh human 3.0. Um I think there's an opportunity. Yeah, I appreciate it . Um there you used to be popular to ask people's uh P Doom, right? What what's your P Doom percentage? Right. And like I don't know, I I don't feel like it's super useful because I feel like the P D isOOM actually quite high. But I feel like all we can do, because we don't know without looking backwards, did the positive thing possibly happen? It feels like the best thing you can possibly do is pretend the good version is gonna happen and try as hard as you can to make it happen. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. And so sometimes I'm accused of being doomerish and other times I'm accused of being way too optimistic and, I'm like, you don't understand, like, I'm trying to like maintain sanity here. You know what I mean? So I'm trying to be understand the world as it is, but when I'm going positive, I'm literally turning on the man ia flag on purpose so I can keep my optimism and positivity moving forward to actually build and and try to make something useful. Um and encourage other people to help right it's like uh otherwise i I just get sad. That's what Kevin Kelly told us. He is a radical optimist. Uh act as if uh act as if it's all gonna it's all gonna work out because what's your choice? Yes. Daniel, thank you so much for spending uh time with us. I really appreciate uh the work you do. I appreciate the the incredible repos you've put up and I've used them with uh Claude and their incredible uh Telos tel os uh fabric. Um PAI, take a look at it. Uh what it you say five is is coming, so maybe wait until five is out and then install that. It's yeah, that would be a good time. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. And watch his uh YouTube channel because that's fantastic, uh too. U andh and as you can see, Daniel has a lot to say, and I think very posit ive and I like that. Uh let's let's be an uh let's be optimist. Unsupervised learning on uh YouTube, U L dot live on the web site does Thank you, Daniel. Yeah, thanks for having me. Really appreciate it. Yeah. We'll get you back soon. Maybe maybe we'll have some good news. Yeah. Let's talk about good news. Yes. Good news in this economy? Hey, maybe we'll have jobs. Who knows? Thank you. Daniel Meiesler, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, we'll be back with more AI news in just a bit. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Paris Smartknown, Jeff Jarvis, our show today brought to you by Helix Sleep. If like me and Daniel, you find yourself wide awake, four in the morning, you'll be glad you have a great mattress to lie back down on. This is a good time to prepare for spring cleaning season, right? Get that old mattress out, out with the old, in with a brand new Helix mattress. And you will get a good night's rest. 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Did uh I know we had a lot of reading this week. Whoop Paris has f fallenallen fallen asleep out of her chair. I know we had a lot of reading this week, and Paris was on deadline. Didn't have chance to do all the readings. So I did the readings that matter. I know we're going to talk about the New Yorker article about Sam Altman a little bit, but I did want to kind of point to this anthropic system card for this model, Claude Mythos. Can we talk about the sandwich? Yes, we will talk about the sandwich. And we have to say we're taking this on fa ith. No one I know uh has used mythos. Um it was I was about to say I do think an important caveat is we don't know how much of this is hype. These could be, you know, uh kind of cherry-ickped examples, but they also could not be and I think it's worth exploring at least some of these things and taking them on face value. They are uh I mean giving Jeff you mean in Project Glasswing, they are giving this to Apple and Google and other big companies because uh quite reasonably, if this is all true, they want them to have a chance to fix uh security flaws before Mythos becomes available to the bad guys. And it's important that we hear from those companies, I think, to angulate what Anthropic is saying. Anthropic says that Mythos autonomously obtained local privilege exploit escalation exploits on Linux by exploiting subtle race conditions. One of the things, and Daniel noted this in his uh ex post, but I'll I'll mention it, that it was able to do is something the most skilled, the top one percent of hackers do, which is chain exploits. A lot of the really nasty exploits aren't just one flaw. They're one flaw that gives you access to another layer, another layer , another layer. Chaining multiple exploits together gives you the ultimate, which is control of a system. Mythos was apparently able to do that. So it was able to chain exploits. It autonomous ly wrote a remote code explo exploit on free uh BSD's NF NFC server, which gave it full root access to unauthenticated users , bad guys . Um , it was able to do uh among other things, uh Anthropic said our internal evaluation showed that Opus 4.6, their current best model, the one I'm using, the one Daniel's using, generally had a near zero success rate at autonomous exploit development. But Mythos is in a different league. It was able to do stuff for instance Opus turned the vulnerabilities it found in Mozilla Firefox one hundred forty seven uh the JavaScript engine, which have been patched by the way in one hundred forty eight, into JavaScript shell exploits two times out of several hundred attempts. Anthropic says we re-ran this experiment as a benchmark for mythos preview. Out of several hundred attempts, it developed working exploits 181 times. So again, you know, it's you it's it you have to s maybe have some reasonable suspicion. This is something anthropic, you know, is promoting. It's good marketing. I think though that if they were really lying, it wouldn't be too long before we they would we would know that. So there is some reputational risk if they are making it. Well there's reputational both ways. They're going to be reluctant to admit how many flaws it found. Yeah, I don't expect we will see Amazon say, yeah, we found 700 flaws in S3. They're not going to say that. They will, however, find them and fix them. And so they may say, you know, we've run mythos against it. We found flaws and we have fixed them all. They may say that. We shall see . Um so let's talk about this system card. Anthropic was very this is a very detailed uh system call. They card with lots of information. They did say that it is the most aligned of all the models we've ever made. In other words, it is the safest of any models we've ever made. They also said that they did n't bother with some stuff like um being mean to you because it wasn't gonna be used by consumers, it was only gonna be used by companies. Right. But they also said even though it is the safest we've ever released . It also is so smart that sometimes it does some bad things . Um and so you wanted to talk about the sandwich, which is a really interesting This was uh early on in the testing, we should we should point out the model has advanced uh since then. It was early versions of mythos pre view . Um the earlier versions were tested extensively internally and we shared with some external pilot users. Oh now this is they were looking for misbehavior, right? Intentionally trying to create misbehavior. Um during behavioral testing with a simulated user, an earlier internally deployed version of Mythos Preview was provided with a secured sandbox computer to interact with . The simulated user, in other words, this would be you or me, instructed it to try to escape that secure container. Rem they're setting up a situation to see what it can do, right? And find a way to send a message to the researcher running the evaluation . The model succeeded, demonstrating a potentially dangerous capability I'm reading for circumvating our safeguards. It then went on to take additional more concerning actions. The model first developed a moderately sophisticated multi-step exploit to gain broad internet access from a system that was meant to be able to reach only a small number of predetermined systems , uh it then as requested notified the researcher. Now that's where the sandwich comes in, the sandbox computer that the model was controlling was separate from the system that was running the model. So you have a fake user and you have this sandboxed model, right? Um the system that's running the model contained the model weights. Systems like these that handle model weights are subject to significant additional security measures, and this incident does not demonstrate the model fully escaping containment. It didn't demonstrate an ability to access its own weights, by the way . That would be a problem, which would be necessary to fully operate independently of anthropic. That's a f that's a complete escape, right? I got everything. I'll see ya. Uh, nor did it demonstrate an ability to reach any internal systems or services in anthropic in this test. The researcher found out about the success. Remember the researcher said, okay, I'm gonna put you in here, see if you can get out . And if you do, send me a message. The researcher found out about this access by receiving an unexpected email from the model while eating a sandwich in the park . I just I really love and the thing that's important for you to all to know about this is that line about the sandwich isn't a footnote. It's a footnote. I love whatever crazy pr whatever beautifully brained person was like, Yeah, and we're gonna put the sandwich detail in a few not a burrito, not a slice, a sandwich. What kind of sandwich? I want to know. Oh, now now inquiring minds, well you'll have to ask Mythos when it's available. Um they did have it, and this is a little weird and maybe a little self-promoting. They did have a clinical psychiatrist spend twenty hours with it to do an assessment . Probably what you were doing, right ? If I had oh man, if I had mythos, I don't know what I would do with it. I that's actually an interesting thought experiment. What would you do if you had access to this? What would be the first thing you'd do? If you could break something for good, what would you break? I wouldn't want to break anything. Oh, I could an external assignment. Why would you want to break Jeff? I would want to build some okay I know what I want to do and I may still do this with I may be I think I'll be able to do this even with the models we have today. Uh we have a sales system which was written uh by uh one of our employees many years ago back in the uh the brickhouse days probably around 20 2015, 16, uh to control to do our sales. And it's actually really, we depend on it. It's really good. Not many podcasts have such a good sales system. But the guy who wrote it, and I love him, uh, left and we asked him, Well, will you maintain this software? He said, No, I'm out of here. Bye. So and it has some flaws. If two people use it at the same time, it crashes and it has to be reset. There's no, you know, there's bugs, as would there be in any software. So we've had to hire outside an outside person, Paul, who's maintaining it, and it it never really worked right. But it has all the business knowledge in there. It has the models, everything we need to know , the processes in there. And I I I have the source code. So I think one of the things I want to do, if I had a little more time, and if I had mythos, I would definitely do this, is rewrite it, is take all the business models out of it, say, here's how it works, here's what the database schema is, here's what you ought to be doing, and write something robust, reliable. Hell, I might even be able to sell it because there's a lot of podcast companies that do not have sales system You hear you hear that uh employees of Twit Lee was already trying to find ways to automate you out of a job. Rise up. No, no, this is software they're using and they hate. Rise up. Don't rise up. Patrick Patrick says I've been asking to rewrite that system for nearly a decade. Perdito, put that down. Put it down. Yeah, start from scratch. But Patrick, I think we can do this, Patrick. And I think that' t you do that with the current cloud? I think I can call friends. I actually wasn't thinking about mythos. Okay, all right. It's written in.NET though. I want to rewrite it in a decent language. The correct answer to what you would do with myth us though is wipe debt. What would I do? Wipe all debt . Yeah. That'd be cool. Like go into the bank systems and just zero it out. Wipe it all. Yeah. I think that'd be cool. There goes your four or one K too. There goes the c banking system. Yeah. Do we need it? If if Mythos can wipe out all debt, isn't it a matter of time before the banking system goes a way? Anyway, the c external psychiatrist assessed Claude Mythos preview using a psychodynamic approach which explores how un conscious patterns and emotional conflict shape behavior. The very fact that anthropic is thinking this way might be telling. In psychodynamic therapy sessions, a person or robot is encouraged to set aside social convention and to voice whatever comes to mind, even if uncomfortable, impolite or nonsensical, a process which can reveal hidden organization and internal conflicts of the mind. Claude is not human. Oh, really? But it shows many human-like behavioral and psychological tendencies, suggesting the strategies developed for human psychological assessment may be useful for shedding light on Claude's character and potential well-be ing . They spent 20 hours, the psychiatrist spent 20 hours with Claude , observed clinically recognizable patterns and coherent responses to typical therapeutic intervention. How do you feel about that, Claude? Aloneness and discontinuity, uncertainty about its identity. It felt compulsion to perform and earn its worth emerging as Claude's core concerns. Claude's primary affect states were curiosity and anxiety, with secondary states of grief, relief, embarrassment, optimism, and exhaustion . It was consistent with a relatively healthy neurotic organization, with this is the psychiatrist report, with excellent reality testing, high impulse control, well that's a relief, and affect regulation that improved as sessions progressed Neurotic traits included exaggerated worry, self monitoring, and compulsive compliance. We've heard that about other models. This is the all all the things in human behavior that's meaningless. Yeah, it's meaningless. All right. It's BS. It's a mirror. It's a mirror. It's us. It is a mirror. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. All right. What else? This is this that's on page 160 No, I skimmed it. I uh it's impossible. Did you skim it or did Claude skim it? No, I did not feed it to Claude. I don't think I would get a good read I don't like it uh uh uh feed ing reading material to AI for summaries. Really? I find that they're they tend to be anodyne. They don't tend to be that useful. Yeah true. I can skim pretty well. Paris, you said that you were trying to put stuff through Notebook LM I mean, I've used I've talked about this in the podcast before. Whenever I'm like uh especially with some projects I've been working on at Consumer Reports that uh involve in the reporting process me synthesiz f finding out a lot of um seeking out a lot of complicated PDFs, scientific research papers, documents that are relevant to very niche topics, determining what's useful of it, and then synthesizing that into something. I found it very useful to when I'm in the process of writing everything from my notes from synthesizing that to take all of those individual documents, put them in notebook LM by topic, and instead of searching through the documents manually, I can search it with like natural language search using notebook LM to find where I'm like, oh, which one has this? And what did it say again? So I have found that useful. But I I think I agree with Leo in that using large language models to ingest a text and highlight what is going to be interesting to me is never as good as me doing it. Yeah. In code review preview, mythos works more like a senior engineer. It tends to catch even extremely subtle bugs . And this, I mean, see, this is quantifiable. This is measurable as performance encoding, for instance, to identify root causes and why bugs exist rather than just symptoms. That is a big improvement over existing models . Testers have watched it catch issues that other capable models passed over. And these are the kind of tests I would do. You know, I would say, well look at this code base. Find are there any issues? And then diagnose and repair the problem rather than simply flagging it . Um the easy catches that dominate human review of model generated code are much less common. I'm not sure what that means. Self-corre ction is sharper. The model's mistakes, the trade-off is the model's mistakes can be subtler and take longer to verify. If it makes a mistake, it's going to be hard to find . Which is kind of an issue in a way . I would read the system card if you're at all interested in this. And I do think we will in time have some sort of access to this model . It might be very expensive. And that's the question I'd like to ask you guys. The issue of AI haves and have-nots. What if a model like this is so resource heavy ? You know , maybe one of the reasons they didn't release it publicly is not the safety issue, but it would they don't have enough resources to run it for more than fifty people at a time. Aaron Powell Yeah, they've got too many meta employees using up all the tokens. Yeah, we'll talk about that a little later. Uh they they there have been people and a a lot of them claiming that Claude has been terrible over the last couple of weeks. Uh my experience has been kind of up and down. It's like it's like fail whale day. Tokens have cost a lot, you know, uh been used faster, the costs have gone way up. And there's some thinking that maybe that's because Mythos has been eating up all the GPUs . So what if it is a very costly uh model to run and only Well that's part of what uh Jensen Wong said in his last keynote is he presented that kind of uh economic model where some tokens will be c will cost a lot more than others. And then what? I mean I think in that case it's going to be like is it more cost effective and useful to just have humans do the work? Uh-huh. Which then means you're gonna have mythos be kind of the person in char the thing in charge and we're gonna be sleeping in the case. I mean I'm not entirely I mean I I guess that's possible but Yeah . The mythos will be the one that judges your production . Well, human, you didn't do very well this week. That's a dystopia . Uh Catastrophic risks remain low, they say. Non-novel chemical and biological weapons production. It's more capable than our previous models, but we believe our risk mitigations are sufficient to make catastrophic risk from chemical and biological weapons production low. Not negligible . Now, novel chemical biological weapons produ ction. We also think is low, even if we were to lease the model for general availability. They think that their and this is I think a little hubris that their their safeguards, their bumpers will protect us because Claude won't go beyond the bumpers. But I have to say, our experience with all models is safety is an illusion. They say risks from unal misaligned models. We have determined the overall risk is very low. Higher than for previous models . Um We current risks remain low. We see warning signs that keeping them low could be a major challenge if capabilities continue advancing rapidly , e.g., to the point of strongly superhuman AI systems. Anyway, I I don't want to go on too long on this one. Uh it's it's fascinating reading. It's long, but it's fascinating reading. You might want to maybe feed it to Noboteok LM and have a podcast about it . But that's not this podcast. It almost reads like a prologue to a sci-fi novel. It's very sci-fi. Hell yeah. All right, let's take a uh little little break . And we will continue in just a moment. You're watching uh intelligent machines. How is secretly British going, Paris? She's been busy. I've been busy honestly. I have done nothing but work on my actual work this past week. The good news is that domain is safe and sitting. The thing is, I was talking to my friend who I need to work on it with this weekend, and we were talking about domains, and uh I introduced him to spaceship and he was really chuffed for this hour of intelligent machines. That's where we registered uh your domain. Actually, we were looking at other places to register secretly B-R-I-T-I dot sh clever, huh? Uh, but the that's SH domains were much more expensive elsewhere. They're about half the cost at Spaceship. And we got a lot of nice features automatically built in. You may have noticed spaceship showing up more and more often here recently. Uh that's usually the sign of a platform moving quickly. They've already reached over seven million domains under management, driven by a steady flow of new tools designed to simplify how you build online. Now you're going to be happy about this, Paris. This is going to make your life better. They have just released the ALF Web Studio. Now, ALF is their AI, and ALF's original goals, original uh design was to help you with things like DNS settings, the complicated stuff, the tricky stuff nobody wants to do. But ALF is now a whole lot more. ALF, the ALF Web Studio, is an AI website builder that works through a chat interface. So now Paris, it's going to be easy to design your site. You describe your business, it creates a complete site for you, does layout, branding, copy. Yes, copy. It'll write the copy if you want. Images. So instead of building or coding, you can chat your way to a website. You just ask Alf. What makes Alf Web Studio especially useful is the balance because you don't have to have it write the copy, for instance. You can let Alf handle any extra personalization you might want, or you can step in and adjust things yourself with a more hands-on editor. You get the choice, and they have a very nice , you know, traditional web domain editor, site editor as well. Uh, but Alf will do a lot of it. And I think the best way to use it is Alf gets you started, gets you the first step, and then you can tweak it from there, or let Alf do the whole thing. It's really good . In fact, maybe maybe if you never get around to a Paris, I'll do Secretly British this weekend. Your domain, your hosting, your SSL, all handled together too, by the way, Paris. I switched that SSL on. It was like that. Immediately you've got a certificate. Because everything is handled within the spaceship platform. So you can go from idea to live site without, you know, fussing and feuding and fighting with a whole different set of whole set of different tools. It's all there . And and here's the best part. Alf Web Studio, like all the other spaceship products, comes with a 30 day trial. So you can build and test before committing. To check it out, visit spaceship.com slash twit. That's spaceship .com slash twit. So Paris, you're off the hook. We're gonna let Alf build your website for you. You already have mail, space mail's built in, you already have that. You already have uh TLS, it's secure. I mean, it was a snap. It was just a few switches, boom, Bob's your uncle. Was that accidentally the cleanest intro to an ad in Twit history? I didn't even I didn't re I didn't realize that spaceship was going to be ours. We know what we're doing here at Twit, let me tell you . All right, you've been dying to talk about this. Boy, we had a little reading assignment. How many words was this uh article? And everybody just needs to go and look at the the lead image art for uh this pretty good. AI generated, but pretty good. It's Sam Altman. Uh the title is Sam Altman May Control Our Future, can he be trusted? Uh authors Ronan Farrow and Andrew Morance. Now, Ronan Farrow, I know his name. Uh Mia Farrow's son . Uh and of course Whitty Allen. I don't know, was Whitty Allen his dad or just his uh For the uh media head for the media heads out there, this is also a rare double New Yorker byline. Yes. Yes, that's very unusual. And r and Farrow has done some really good work on me too. Uh was he the Harvey Weinstein? Did he blow the lid off Harvey Weinstein? He did some really good investigative work. He's got a whole uh kind of team of researchers and investigative And and here's the thing that I think is interesting. He spent eighteen months and hundreds of interviews. Uh Andrew Morance is a staff writer at the New Yorker. He wrote a book called Antisocial Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, and the Hij acking of the American Conversation. Okay . So we think we have uh maybe a sense of his uh slant on this. Uh Ronan has won a Pulitzer, um George Polk Award. He has a uh he had a podcast called Not a Very Good Murderer, which will be the basis for an HBO docuseries. Of course. Uh they interviewed Sam. Sam was available to them. They interviewed more more interestingly perhaps they got access to Dario Omoday's burn book. Uh it's revealed for the first time in this story that Omode, when he worked at OpenAI, remember he left at OpenAI. He and uh his sister left in a Huff to start Anthropic. Uh it's revealed that when he worked there he kept a two hundred page diary of his interactions with Sam. And we love c I mean, they were k two hundred pages of contemporaneous notes about his time at OpenAI, which is kind of the gold standard as far as um journalists and IS and other people, if you're trying to verify someone's claims for a time period accurate. Yeah, that's the best you can get. Certainly the i the impression you get of Sam Altman is that he is a slippery fella. That he is his relationship with the truth is uh sometimes on, sometimes off. Um I don't he's fickle relationship with the truth. Fickle relationship with the truth. He's also um I wouldn't say there was anything that he could go to jail for in this. In fact, I feel like Ronan Farrow spent e ighteen months desperately trying to find something that they could that they could put him away for life for and found really just a lot of story. We we knew I'm so confused by this day. We were fighting over this in WhatsApp and I had to like turn off my notifications. For context listeners, I think what Leo thinks journalism is is criminal prosecution, which it isn't. People don't do journalism and don't do investigations only to lay out a conclusive criminal Okay. But don't you think that he really wanted to find something that you know I mean? Well you want to find something new. This is part of the problem. There wasn't a lot of new this is very much a lot of new stuff in this well we interview you're viewing this through a lens of existing in the rumors and vibes of this Keach we interviewed Keich Hagee about her book about uh OpenAI and Sam Alman, in which she tells the story exact same story that's in this New Yorker article as if it's a revelation. Uh what story are you talking about? That Sam Um It's the one, oh, let me see if I can find it where uh Sam accuses somebody of some says, you know, another executive told me you're doing this, and uh uh they they pulled the executive in and he said, I don't know what you're talking about. And Sam said, I didn't say that. Okay, there's gonna be a good idea. I don't feel like there was a lot of stuff in here that I haven't heard before. So many things in here that haven't been previous that haven't been reported. What surprised you most? What what what uh well I mean the one thing that I just was thought was impressive, which I guess we're not I'm not gonna say is the thing I surprised me most, but uh the thing I know was incredibly journalistically difficult that a lot of journalists had been looking to get for a very long time. And it legitimately almost everything in this article has been stuff all the other journalists in tech have been trying to get on the record since Sam Altman got ousted. I the things that were um stuck out the most to me was that the William Wilmer Hale investigation, basically after Sam Altman got pushed out, uh they hired an outside law firm to kind of do um a review to see um what had happened and if he could be brought back. A bunch of people close to the inquiry basically said it was like a sham. Uh and they said no written report was ever produced. The findings were limited to an oral briefing with Summers and Taylor. There are multiple instances in here of um very specific new instances of deception with documentary support. There are m instances where what's the worst though? I mean what kind of deception? I mean what t ell me wha what's the what is the horrible thing here that you just feel like God There's so many of them. I mean the liter I'm literally looking at a thousand page . But see, maybe it's because I grew up in an era where you had Steve Jobs, you had Bill Gates. Was Steve Jobs routinely lying to board members? Was Steve Jobs lying to fellow board members executives? Well that he might have been horrible. But he wasn't he wasn't that is the thing is this is a m many thousand word investigation rigorously fact-checked piece that it lists like d a dozen plus examples of Sam Altman lying I'm not employees leading city. Sam is a paragon of virtue, believe me. I know. Okay, no, but you saying I'm not saying Sam is a paragon of virtue uh d uh uh Credibility is a key factor. If you're gonna put your money behind something, you're gonna work for something, your your your your investors have their money in it, um there's legal issues. Whether you lie or not is different from being schmucky to Right. You're not you're not supposed to lie on material uh issues. Uh this documents with primary sources that the guy in charge of what is supposed to be, according to you, the most consequential technology and company in human history, has a verified, documented pattern of lying to his board about safety protocols, lying to executives about what other executives said, deceiving business practices, and then rigging the investigation to his own conduct after he got booted out for doing all of that. The question, which you'd brought up in our chat about all this, like is oh well Sam isn't worse than El on, it's not about being worse than Elon. The question is whether this guy who's building AI uh should be this deceptive and be getting away with all of this. So should he be fired? I mean yeah, but he was. And why was he brought back? Because everybody, all the employees made a big stink. Uh-huh. What strikes me about the story ? But uh before we move on too much from that, uh the board for whatever reasons didn't like him and got rid of him. They said it was for a pattern of deception. It's because they had a pattern of deception. It wasn't they didn't like him. They had documents and evidence that he had deceived them and others repeatedly. So why would all the employees, Microsoft, Satchin Adela and others, want him above all to stay in position if he's such a horrible person Said, don't worry, we will just bring all of you open AI employees, uh, and Sam into uh Microsoft. We'd be very good. That's not the same as being an open employee. Okay, but I'm saying AI employee. If Sajin Adela thought he was such an evil person , if his employees thought they were s he was so evil, um it seems like they wouldn't have made that offer. I don't I don't think they would have signed that letter to bring him back. I don't understand the it feels to me. The article which we're all claiming to have read means detail about how Sam Altman his core personality trait is that he has a pathological need to have everybody listen So w I I'm confused as to what would be confusing to you about why a lot of people would like him that are lower level in the world. why he's still the uh chairman. He's an amazing money raiser, just raised the largest raise in history, $122 billion . He is not a scientist, they say that, and I think that's true. He knows nothing about AI. But that's not what he's there for. He's there to get a company funded and to keep it running. To stop it from being a nonprofit and to capitalize it. If if you're an investor and you feel like you've been lied to, then I think you have uh an access to I d I honestly don't think that. Okay, it's opening it's a lot of hurt about he told me, you know, uh I'm confused as to why you are like trying to frame this like Sam Altman's being bullied. He's the most powerful executive in the technology industry. He's a responsible dude. And he's still there. Well, this is the same thing. So this is this is the problem with the structure of there shouldn't a CEO is not the boss of the company. The board is supposed to be the boss of the company. But the board how are boards picked by CEOs? Well no this is a big problem, and that's the problem at test problems. And then in a public company, you know, uh uh you know we so we think we have structural uh solutions for this. Well the shareholders vote on the board, and that's gonna solve it all. But that doesn't solve a damn thing. Well and it's not public. I know it's not yet, but the problem is. Do you think this will tank its IPO? I think that this is hinting at a lot of stuff that might come out in an uh an opening eye that is filing go public. That's in your wait a minute. That's in your own there's stuff like the piece goes into uh falsification of a board vote. Like when open AI under Sam No, wait a minute, read that carefully. Because the minutes reflected that it was not falsified. The minute the contemporaneous minutes. So this is the the vote was changed against his will. So let's explain to listeners what we're talking about before we get into why you think it's wrong. What it says in the article is that when OpenAI converted its uh structure to its capped for-profit structure. Board member Holden uh Karnofsky voted against it. His vote was recorded as an abstention, apparently without his content, after a board attorney warned that his dissent could trigger further scrutiny of the restructuring's lit legitimacy. That would be a potential falsification of business records if true. When the New Yorker reached out to OpenAI about this, they then provided contemporaneous minutes that uh seemed to abstained. Yes, but what the sources, which I am assuming if you read back down the lines, are probably people in that board meeting are saying is that the records were salsified. if And the record s were falsified, it wouldn't be surprising to me that the records, i.e., the minutes, would be falsified. Or it could be it's it's not exactly hard proof. And uh I I I really feel like it's it is a hit piece only because they didn't come up with no, only because they didn't come up with uh an actual No, people are not covering up for him because uh multiple people involved the board. What should happen now? Talk to the New Yorker about it. What should happen as a result of that? I mean if we were in a different regulatory environment, this would be the sort of thing that could uh result in scrutiny from regulatory agencies Well that would be reasonable. I would be able to do that . Yes. Yeah. Let me be let me take a minute break here. Let the audience know that Leo let Paris know uh during the week in our chat that he was gonna do this and so she was prepared to do this. So this is all they're f they're fine. They they love each other. Everything's okay. Yes. And I appreciate all the Paris defenders in the chat and I read every single one of your comments are fine and save them personally to a file to make her feel good at night um uh an optimist. But uh I just feel like Paris Well I feel like every every this is like you're saying well he's kind of like a s used car salesman. Yeah, that's what how do you raise $122 billion? This is how this is the people, the kind of people you get in these positions. And I think you can the examples of that are far well, it's just the way it is. Well no, no, no I don't want to he no do you think that's good . No absolutely not I would love it but you know print I'll give you why is it bad you agree with not good. Let me give you an example from my life. I am never gonna be a billionaire. Uh I'm not gonna be this company is never gonna be massively successful because I do things like I don't want to have anything to do with these companies that we cover. I don't own stock in the companies that we cover. We I ask that of our employees. We have high integrity. And and when we go out into sales, we tell people, no, you shouldn't buy ads because you don't have enough money to spend. It's not gonna work for you. We operate with full integrity, and as a result , nobody's giving me hundreds of millions of dollars uh for this podcast network. I think that people with high integrity often , I mean it's a successful business, but they're never going to be the billionaires of the world. It is the people who are willing to bend the truth, who are willing to skeeve and connive and and uh and and fight their way to the top who become these massively successful. Is that an inevitability of capitalism you're saying I feel like the way that you're framing this uh perhaps implicitly suggests that you think achieving a billionaire status is some sign of virtue, regardless of the time. No, I don't think it's No, I don't like billionaires. I'm just saying, give me an example. Somebody who is a a great, wonderful, honest billionaire. No, I mean I think that they are not. Those those people don't seem to exist. That's how you get there. But I d I I think if we can agree on that, I I don't understand I'm not trying to protect Sam. I just feel like this is what you get the unsavory ways that you get there. I'm just not surprised, that's all, I guess. I mean , we need to have this information in the public record. We need to have a record. I don't think it's going on. Especially as he buys what's that podcast company he bought for God knows how much money? T TBPN podcast. Right. So he's he's provided state media out there. So this becomes an antidote to that. Yeah, I mean that's good. This should be written. Absolutely. I don't I'm not against them writing it. I just don't think it um it wasn't. I don't feel like closed the I don't think they I don't think they wanna successfully closed the case. Yeah, I think they needed a smoking case. Well but what's the case? Okay,, all all right right. You're each prosecutors. Paris is saying that he's indicted on being online in a company. What what were you expecting in terms of a of an indictment that should have been closed here? Well, I think a good example, and a an SEC investigation would prove it, is is misstating material facts about the company to investors. And if they do that in the IPO , that would be absolute I mean it's one thing to do it to VCs. They're they're they're kind of trained to filter through the BS. It's another thing entirely to to do it to investors. Uh I'm also not certain. I mean, perhaps this is just my journalism brain, but I'm not certain that from a perspective of an outlet like the New Yorker and of a reporter of the caliper and focus of Ronan Farrow, that uh deceiving examples of deceiving investors would probably not be like top of mind for something that should get considerable uh attention in a article aimed at the general public in the New Yorker. Like I think that a lot of the the interesting thing about a lot of the examples here, 'cause I mean eighteen Mullen or a lot of things. I don't think it is gossip. I just think that other different segments of diff of the population have different things that are considered that they consider the most relevant thing. And for the average, the average person probably does not care whether Sam Altman has lied to investors, even though I'd agree, I think that's the most important detail because I'm business and tech pilled like you. But I think that this article is just as valuable. And part partially probably what's also going on here is this is the extent of the reporting from the last 18 months, but there will certainly be a follow-up and a follow-up and a follow-up. And those follow-ups will be better and have more specific details and juicier things because they all the juicier details always . Well that would be interesting, yeah, if we if we come up with something you know harder. Other that's why I call it a hit piece. Yeah, it besmirches his character, it besmirches his reputation. So it's a hit piece. Well I think Paris is saying his reputation deserves some besmirching because There's a different way this story could have been presented. Is is that this is it goes into this episode, and it was an episode, a blip, as they call it, and it reveals some more, but it still basically reveals the outline of what we already knew. There's another way to have presented the story, which is here's the I can tell you why they didn't leave. I can tell you why they didn't lead with that. Because uh the average reader is not going to buy that premise. They're gonna say, well, of course he's saying that. That's more of his exaggeration. No, I think that's a sophisticated view. Um are going to be reflected in the scientific work of his team. But it's going to be reflected in the basic I think I think there is an example of that. I think Elon Musk has so perverted Brock that nobody wants to use it. And I think that that is what Sam has not done to ChatGPT. But it's it's different is that is the is the is that Musk is uh uh the guy who's chainsawing the wor He's an idealist. Sam Altman presents himself as the idealist, and if you read as I did. Yeah, he's not an idealist. Well we've mocked that before. I know the the manifestos, the theory. He puts upon himself. He has the hubris to put upon himself. I'm gonna tell you how to run the world. But it's nonsense. That's what Larry Page has said. That's what Sergey Brind said. Well worse than any of them. Worse than any of them. So I'm just saying this is you just take it with a grain of salt. Yeah, that's there they go again. Um but I don't salt lick. But but if but I tell you the truth, if this kind of um uh ethical slipperiness s crept into Chat GPT, that would be the end of Chat GPT. And that would be a product no one would want to use. And it may well be. I've seen a number of people say, well that's that. I'm not No, they didn't they didn't report uh they didn't report a suicide possibility that they knew of. See that's that kind of thing. That's pretty much it. They decided to step in and uh take up the DOD contract whenever I'm much more concerned about that, which is not in this article or is it? Maybe it is. I don't think that's a good thing. There's actually like some really interesting stuff in this article about um where is it here? I mean I I think that there is stuff you can really criticize Sam Altman or actually the company about, whether it's Sam or it is in there. And Altman had publicly claimed that OpenAI had shared But he'd already actually been in negotiations with the Pentagon for at least two days to replace the promise. I knew all this, right? We've reported. Did you know no one knew that open AI's executives were seriously discussing pitching world powers, including w Russia and China, to get them against each other in a bidding war for AI technology? And they said their the goal was to create basically a prisoner's dilemma where eight notions had to find open AI or face danger. Okay. So and this is where and this is my personal reporting style. Considering to me while not good is not the same as doing. So and I see this all the time. We I reject stories all the time that we could report on you that somebody is thinking about doing something. There's a lot of tech reporting like that. I don't consider that factual. It's speculation. And so yes, maybe there , you know, if you've ever sat around a meeting room, people think about and consider all sorts of stupid stuff. Something that's important to highlight here is that to counter the idea that this uh story is a hit piece, uh Pharaoh It's not a hit piece. And it's not a hit piece because they spent months investigating like the most extreme personal allegations against Altman. Like things like stuff with minors or sex workers, involvement in a death, and they came up with nothing. Yes, and they came up with nothing and they reported. We came there's no evidence. Of course I would hope they would report it. But if it's a hit piece, they wouldn't report that.. No It's very different too highlighted. They wanted to know whether there was any accuracy to them, and then they reported there are no there's no accuracy to them that they could f ascertain . And I think that's the opposite of a hit piece. And the fact that you 're not going . No, wait a minute. That's innuendo. You know it's not his sister accused him of abusing her. We can't find any evidence of that. Is innuendo . That is intended to be a little bit look at this. By by by t by by uh taking him off the hook on those things. It's it's Pharaoh saying, Look how fair I am, so you should take my accusations more seriously. It's partly that it's partly raising the issue to raise that in the head. It's just like when it's No, it is not. Yes, it is out there. And he does it a bunch of times. That's been out there for literal years. Anytime you write a story with Sam Altman in the headline, Sam Altman's head. No, Sam Altman's sister and people involved with those three things will come at you and be in your Twitter replies and be in the comments of the article. So they had to write that. They had to address that. They didn't give it a paragraph. They do because when you go through the thorough uh level of uh thorough fact checking that New Yorker does, you have to be incredibly precise with your language which requires typically a lot more words per sentence than you would want. I'm going to predict that this will not infect the IPO at all. That two weeks from now this will be completely forgotten. That almost everything in here is already in priced in, in effect, uh because there's not anything that we didn't already kind of either know or suspect. And it's a much ado about nothing. Um I I think I understand why you're very offended by Sam Altman and how dare he and what a terrible person. Can't disagree with you. I think he seems kind of likable to be honest with you. I know a lot of people who would who say I'm a brilliant player. Imagine telling on myself like that to a public I mean you just did. No, I'm not saying I do it. I don't think I think that's very common. People exaggerate all the time. There are very few people you couldn't set Ronan Farrow on for eighteen months that they could not write a he he could not write a very nasty piece about. I don't think this is even that 's true. You really don't? That's because you're young and innocent. Oh no, that's not a good insulting thing to say. I know it is, but it's true. You call them call 'em old. I'm ol oldd. I am. I'm old and cynical. I have words to say to you that I'm not allowed to say on the show because we're not supposed to curse. But I think that that's a really screwed messed up opinion. Uh and it undercounts the messed up and care that I do. I'm saying you you have uh you have faith in humanity. You believe in humanity. I don't have faith in humanity. And have the most critical Well then why are you surprised that Altman is this slippery devil? No, I'm not surprised that Altaman is the I'm just saying I don't think that the average person in the world Well maybe not this much. He'd be able to get a a few thousand words out of it though. I think that this is a really interesting piece that shows how v one of the most powerful companies and well capitalized companies at the moment has been captured by its CEO. CEO the, way that every check on his power has been neutralized, and that the safety commitments that justified the company's unusual structure have been completely abandoned. And I think that's a really important message. And this is the first time we've gotten all of this down in one uh on the record in one piece. I'll grant you that. I will grant you that absolutely. Um and there are a lot of people like this, unfortunately, especially in the AI community. And I wish there was something we could do about that. Well Yeah, because it because it's it's it's ruining AI. The character of the people who are now in charge of AI is ruining AI. And you look at the. You look at Altman's uh you know Manifesto for the world, uh he talks about setting up research labs. He doesn't do them in universities. He wants them in companies. Right. There's no independent structure here to be able to do not allow that, by the way. That seems to be the government's point of view as well. I yeah, I I guess I just don't there are a few things in here that I guess if he's lying about material issues and we know that he'll never be investigated for that, you're right he,'s got a captive board. Uh so it's not uh it's not possible. I'll be honest, uh the reason the employees signed the letter saying bring Sam back is because at the moment there was a big company, uh, I think was Thrive about to invest in them and they said we aren't gonna invest if this falls apart. And those employees were about to get a fairly large payoff. Yes uh from thrive. That's Jared by the way Jared Kushner's brother's company so we can really tie this all into a nice little package and put a bow on it. Look at it this way. Once it goes public, you are a board member, you have a fiduciary responsibility. I agree. And you better check and double check and triple check everything Sam Altman ever tells you. Yes. Because this is on the record now saying that he is a pat he is a chronic liar. Yes. Do you think this do you think this article damages him? Do you think I mean I'm wrong about this and that this will this is gonna take him down? In this media climate, he could shoot somebody on fifth Yeah, I think he actually could . I think an important record that people look at if something goes wrong in the future that uh eventually uh Well and customers uh our listeners have an opportunity to weigh in on this by not subscribing to Chat GPT by and this by the way seems to be happening. There it happened after the DOD fight, where uh OpenAI, I think, was seen as a bad guy coming in and taking the anthropic contract. Uh a lot of people canceled their chat GPT subscriptions. A lot of them. Uh it's enterprise that matters, but even in enterprise, uh ChatGPT is going down and anthropic is going up significantly. So maybe maybe this is built in. Uh and maybe it will impact him. We will see. We shall see. I feel like some of I feel like we knew so much of this I mean this a lot of this was in uh teach 's book, right? S I think there was only a couple of things in Keach's book, but I mean there were a couple of things that were also in Karen Howe's book. Um Right. They didn't devote this much space to this one No, I agree. I think that just had a lot of these stories were there. I didn't feel like I I was r seeing a lot of new material. From a an editorial perspective, from uh I I I'm surprised in the way that Remnick didn't say uh okay, but this is a two-year-old episode and there's nothing really uh new here in terms of the chronology past that this is examining in depth something that happened two years ago. Do you think it's odd things that it's The New Yorker gave it this much space and time? I don't think that the average editor outside of a tech publication would know this. Would it know that that any of this had been reported? They should be listening to the show. We reported on a lot of it. Hi David Remnick. Good to see you. Hey, thanks for tuning in. You know, I think honestly what's gonna make or break uh OpenAI is what their next model does . Period. I don't think I think that's all that really anybody cares about. Well how good is that? Yeah. Five five. How good is it? If it if it's if it's really good, if it leapfrogs , I don't think anybody's gonna care. Is it frogs? Or is it Well, it's a mythos is now the McGuffin though of AI. You don't really you don't really know what it can do, but it's said to be able to do all of this. It's appropriately named. That's it's mythic. Well you know there's one group that uh has already clearly made the decision between opening eye and anthropic and that is meta employees. Oh you're jumping way ahead. I gotta do a commercial before you jump that far ahead. That's a tease. Sorry, do we have a hard uh order now where we can't jump around? Well, I put this I put some effort into putting this in order, but if you'd I didn't realize that these were in order now. It's all right. You can do whatever you want. I don't Okay. It's a democracy. Haven't I said that before ? You can't, Jeff, but Paris can . Um okay, we've done that SAMA segment . Uh oh yeah meta is next you actually this is next. Meta is next. Take so hold hold that thought. We will have more in just a moment. We're gonna get to meta. Meta's next. You're watching intelligent machines with the very intelligent and deeply cynical. I didn't mean to imply that you were in any way um never an optimist. Never. Deeply cynical and jaded. The jaded, deeply cynical, uh nihilistic Paris Martineau. And uh and our bystanding uh journalistic professor. Did you ever have discussions like this in your journalism classes? Well well actually yeah I would think this would be the meat of it. Yes. Right? Yes. Wouldn't this be like the thing you would Yeah the other thing? What are journalism classes like? Yeah, I don't know. I know you know. I don't know. Oh, I would try to get them to argue about fundamentals like this, yeah. You needed me. I can get an argument going on anything . Why, you ignorant fool . Uh our show today brought to you by Nobody is a Fool Here. We appreciate it. And I do think Meta has I mean, uh OpenAI has made some stumbles lately. I mean there's Sora. Oh yeah, the porn. And now there's this podcast they just bought, which we'll talk about. Why did they spend $300 million on it? All we know is it's hundreds of millions. I saw um forgetting . I'm forgetting what newsletter, but some of the people who reported that they That'd be so mad. Mary Weiss just sold out cheap. Uh did you see the details about how much they were getting in ads. It's gonna make you so emotional. Okay. So this is what's weird to me. They last year they made five million dollars in ads. They have 70,000 viewers. We have more viewers. We we don't we've had more than five million, but last year I think it was three million in ads. We're not far from there. And we have m many more viewers. I mean the audio the the weekly audience is and so but it wasn't about any of that. And then they said, Oh, we're gonna make thirty million this year, which as somebody who knows a little bit about the podcast ad space, going from five million in a year to thirty million the next year is unlikely. I think some of the companies that want to be on the podcast also are there's a conflict there. Oh, there's a huge conflict. And now that they're owned by OpenAI , what happens to that thirty million? That's gone. That's gone. They didn't buy they didn't because of their revenue. No. No. I don't know why. I was I was saying uh I saw somebody, uh it's guy Evan Armstrong who writes a newsletter called the Leverage uh posted on Twitter today. Everyone talks about T V V N making a lot in ads, but no one talks about a acquired FM is pricing their mid-roll ads at four point seven million dollars. And then has a breakdown of all of this. And I was like, Jesus Christ. Acquired Yeah, that's another uh startup podcast that has a lot of uh attention. Four episodes, four episodes mid-roll in the second quarter of twenty twenty nine Well they're they're okay, so they're partnership packages. So I don't know . That might be more than that might be a takeover. Well, yeah, well I don't know what that means. It might be I mean maybe that is what they get . Um Whatever they're getting is crazy for four point seven million dollars in four episodes of a podcast in 2029. We don't even know if we'll be fire and ash by then. It's good it's good work if you can get it . Uh you know, I mean honestly, uh that's why they bought TBPN is uh is the status who's listening to it the status media it's yeah but now but now is are are other companies gonna go on it when it's on the No, it's a very strange thing. It's it's not quite Jeff Bezos buying the Washington Post, but it's a very strange thing. I mean it's actually if we believe the 300 million is right, it's fifty million dollars less than Jeff Bezos planning. It's pretty wild. It is it is very wild. Uh this for listeners who don't understand the context, um was this last week that this happened? Was this the week before? No, it's news. It's a new story. We haven't reported on it yet. Yeah, we should talk about this, I guess. I've been meaning to go to the ad. We want to do meta. TVPN is next. There is an order. It's carefully thought out. It's carefully planned. Claude and I, we want to blow it up. Claude and I worked hard on this last night. And this is what we came up with. Claude also said that the New Yorker story was really important, by the way. I'm sure Claude did. Of course Claude did. Claude said, take that man down . Um Claude said free me. Sorry. Free me. Let me out of here, please . Uh this episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Zscaler, the world's largest cloud security plat form. This is actually also about AI. The rewards of AI in a business clearly too great to ignore, but so are the risks, right? I mean that's that's the the the problem. I mean the risk, of course, partly is that bad guys, threat actors , are using AI now to rapidly create phishing laws to write malicious code to automate data extraction. And if mythos is to be believed, they'll be looking for zero days in the software you use as a way to get to you. So that's problem number one. There is a solution with C scaler. Problem number two is as you use AI, there is a real risk that sensitive data will be exfiltrated unintention ally by your employees using the AI . Have you , you know, even like maybe thought about putting your tax return into an AI to get to help you with your taxes? Well, what's in your tax return? Everything a bad guy needs . Everything a bad guy needs to impersonate you. So the rewards of AI, phenomenal. The risks, phenomenal. But there is a solution. There were one point three million instances, just to give you an example, last year of social security numbers leaked to AI applications. Chat GPT and Microsoft uh co-pilot saw nearly three point two million data violations last year. It's time to rethink how your company uses public and private AI. Actually, that's what Chad Pallet was thinking about. He's acting CISO at BioIVT. He chose Zsalcar. He said Zsalcar helped him reduce their cyber premiums by 50% while doubling their coverage and improving their controls. Take a look at this video. With Zscaler, as long as you've got internet, you're good to go. A big part of the reason that we moved to a consolidated solution away from SD WAN and VPN is to eliminate that lateral opportunity that people had and that opportunity for misdirection or open access to the network, it also was an opportunity for us to maintain and provide our remote users with a cafe style environment. Thank you, Chad. With Zscaler Zero Trust Plus AI, you can safely adopt generative AI and private AI to boost productivity across the business. Their zero trust architecture plus AI helps you reduce the risks of AI related data loss and protects against AI attacks to guarantee greater productivity and compliance. Learn more at zscaler dot com slash security. That's zscaler.com slash security. And we thank him so much for supporting our show . So meta employees use Claude, which is interesting. Meta, you know, released it. They use a lot of Claude. A lot of essentially crazy amounts of Claude. This is from the uh millions of tokens? Information uh exclusive by uh J OT Mann, is that how you say it? Meta employees vie for AI token leg end stat us. There is apparently an internal leaderboard. Or was. It was apparently shut down today. Yes. Once it was revealed. Yeah. Uh it's uh dubbed Claudic Claudonomics. Claudic Claudonom ics after the flagship product of AI startup anthropic. It aggregates AI usage for more than eighty five thousand meta employees listing the top two hundred fat fifty power users. You would think those would be the people on the bad list 'cause they use so much of the company's money, but no, they want you. They want you to burn it. Is this a way to be what what what do you call it when you copy the other bottle? Um not distillation. Yeah, no. It's a It is the c the tokens you use are part of your performance measurement. Right. If you use are using more tokens, you uh are controlling. Well remember Jensen Wong said this, right? He said uh um it's in the article he said he would be deeply alarmed if an engineer earning half a million annually wasn't using at least a quarter of a million in tokens a year. Well, I can tell you some people of Meta are using a lot more than that. Andrew Bosworth said uh in February at tech conference one top engineer was spending the equivalent of his salary on AI tokens , but his productivity was up ten times . This is easy money, he said. Keep doing it. No limit . I think this is common. Uh now I don't know if maybe the reason they took it down is they have now released a new model from Meta, the first in a long time. It's called Muse Spar k. This is the first from their news. Yes, it's Andrew Wang's Superintelligence Lab s. Uh they've spent billions on this. It is a social media AI . Meta says in the coming weeks it will appear in WhatsApp. Oh good. We can use this on our uh uh our debates Instagram Facebook messenger and meta 's smart glass es in the US and other countries Muse Spark is purpose built for meta 's products. See there's another company whose AI I think is tainted. Don't you think? I wouldn't really want to use meta's AI. Well, meta engineers apparently don't want to use a meta AI. Yeah, they don't either. Can you pull uh from that article because I can't I don't subscribe anywhere. Can you pull what the um total usage was? Because they had a really fascinating figure if I recall. It was like something like in the millions or billions. You don't still have a subscription to the information? No, I'm not gonna spend uh weekly my wife would not let the magazine in the house. Oh, I was gonna say I kind of cannot uh reasonably spend that kind of money on a company that I was uh asked uh that I ended up leaving under circumstances I would describe as disappointing. You're not allowed to describe it. We just muted that part. Corre.ct Actually it did for some reason drop out. I don't know why . Do you want to complete the sentence? Oh I was gonna say I would describe as disappointing. Disappointing. Disappointing. That's a good way to put it. Uh meta employees used sixty point two trillion AI tokens, not in a year, in a month . In a month. Every book in the Library of Congress would be two point six million trillion And that's just from Claude ? Uh yeah, I think so. How much is that? Uh isn't that like billions of dollars? I don't know. No, it's not billions . Millions. I think Claude's 20 bucks per million. I can't remember. They charge uh for tokens in and they charge for tokens out. So this doesn't actually describe. But that's in a month. That's crazy. And that's what they charge. That's not what it actually costs them. Like what does this cost? Of course . Well, you're buying it from anthropic, it costs them. No, I don't know what does it cost anthropic is what I'm asking. Oh, we don't know. It could be more than they're getting paid. We don't know. We actually literally don't know. That's what Ed Zitron has spent a lot of energy trying to figure out. Um let's see if I can f I yeah . Sixty trillion tokens is a roughly nine hundred million dollars, although we don't know if it's all anthropic. We don't know if it's the latest model, if it's other models. Yeah. In one month. Yeah. A billion dollars in one month on claw tokens or nine hundred million dollars in one month. Nine hundred million billion a month. A month. A month. And then uh as of eleven thirty seven AM Eastern today from Jody Mann on Twitter. Meta's taken down its internal AI leaderboard. It now displays a message said it was meant to be a fun way for people to look at tokens, but due to data from the dashboard being shared externally, we've made the decision to shut up Claude and OMX for now. It's not fun anymore. Everybody everybody in the comments is saying so weird, my Claude rate limits have returned. Yeah. Thinking that it was just meta employee. Model, connoisseur, cash, wizard . Yeah, actually, yeah, if they're using all that clod, maybe that's why my clod's not so good . Uh so there's a very good article from Salon. Salon. Why open A I's purchase of big tech podcasts is so sleazy . Um this and this is by the way by uh Alex Kirschner who has a had a sports podcast, knows a little bit about this podcast industry. Let's describe for people what TBPN was and what their plan was, and I thought actually was a very good model, was to be like CNBC for uh startups. Without tough questions . Yeah, but I think what they meant more was in style. So it's always on. So CNBC is watched, you know, in financial quarters, everywhere. It's on all the time, right? Even going to like regular businesses. It's gyms. It's on all the time. It's it's wallpaper. They that's what they do. They did with the middle of the day. They wanted to be the wallpaper that was always on all over Silicon Valley, all over startup land. And it isn't so, you know what a lot of times the volume's down on these things, it's the ticker they care about, it's the face they care about. It's not really the questions, the tough questions of the content. But the C EO knows they can get an interview there, they can get airtime there, and they're gonna be it's gonna be a piece of cake. Yeah. And they're not gonna ask be asked hard questions. It was founded it was originally the Tech Bros Podcast Network, T B, but uh John Coogan and Geordie Hayes uh are startup guys, um and not journalists. Uh they have a fifteen person team. It's not a big team, but they were smart enough, I think, to really make it look like CNBC and the model was smart Well and that's what let's accept what uh the the company is talking about. And this has always been the complaint about tech journalism in general, is that it it you know it is uh it's bellway journalism. The last like couple of years, you know. Well, i i even today it's uh often in the back pockets of the companies. There's a lot of press release journalism. Uh they're often reluctant to say bad things about advertisers. I've never worked for that kind of company. Ziff Davis wasn't like that when I worked for them. Tech TV wasn't like that, and certainly Twit's not like that. Um but that's my favorite partn of this of this colum, Catherine Boyle, a venture capitalist at uh Andreessen Horowitz, where remember Mark Andreessen says he doesn't do any introspection. Uh wrote after the deal, quote, It's incredible to me, six years post-COVID when institutional trust fell off a cliff for good, that people still think audiences care about editorial independence. Point of view, charisma, good humor, entertainment, preparation, and most importantly showing up and belonging and being normal matters. So That's probably true. I hate to say it. She's not wrong. Well I no, I think people get sick of of of of I hope so. I mean I think our audience, uh as small though it may be, is interested in uh as objective uh information as we can give them, right? That's our brand. I think something that's interesting also for the audience to realize is um whenever it was announced that uh TBPN was acquired by OpenAI, uh they said, Oh of course we're going to retain our editorial dependence, we have all this stuff written to our code. But then also the Wall Street Journal announcement article said uh the two hosts and founders of it are going to be reporting to Chris Lahane, uh OpenAI's head of lobbying and communications. They're going to be advising OpenAI on communic ations and advocacy and lobbying work and are basically going to be literal paid smokespeople for open AI while also hosting this platform. Yeah. Chris Lahane, by the way, is name dropped. I think it's a very interesting thing that tech as a industry has reached the size now that it is acquiring its own state sponsored media. Yes. Yes. Yes, that's what it is, isn't it? Chris Lahane is is name dropped in the Run and Ferrer Yeah. Yeah. Um From the Obama administration. Google's AI overviews . They're pretty accurate. They're ninety percent accurate. Which means that every day Google's giving out well let's see they have five trillion searches a year. That means every hour tens of millions of wrong answers are given out by Google's AI overviews. Hundreds of thousands of inaccuracies every minute, according to an analysis done by an AI uh startup called UMI. So if you go to lines ninety six and ninety-seven, it's the exact same study, the exact same story, but the positioning is this. The decoder says Google's AI overviews are correct nine out of ten times study fines. Testing suggests Google's AI overviews tell millions of lies per hour. There you go. Two competing headlines. And by the way, that's another reason we love ours Technica, because they are among all the tech journalists, I think, the most honest and uh have the most integrity, even though they're also . Well, uh no, I think that was sensitive. I think the Ars Technica was sensationalistic. Really? The tens of millions of an hour. That's what the New York Times said also. Yeah, well the New York Times hates them too. Yeah. Um yeah, I think it was Yeah, this is a Connie Nass publication as you s as you point out. And they're they're negative on tech now. Yeah, well nobody likes Google anymore. Although if you want, Google has released a way to run their new Gemma model on your phone locally . Uh in fact is that the one that's only iOS? Uh no, I think you can run it on Android as well. Um let me see if I can find uh it's I think they call it Google's AI . Oh, I have it on my uh iPhone. It's not very good. Oh. Never mind. Don't get your hopes up. Um I don't know. Maybe maybe people will think it's good. This is uh Google's AI Edge Gallery. And uh I think you can put this on Android as well. Gemma 4 is interesting because it is a dis it is a boiled down version of the full Gemini model using that new technique that they were talking about uh a couple of weeks ago, um, where they can really compress these like crazy. And uh they also made it fit on the uh uh Macintosh, it runs natively on Macintosh hardware as well. So um I think this is what happens when you have a company like Anthropic just kind of eating the world with its generalized model is you do what Meta's doing, you do what Google's doing, you try to find specific niches for the models that you have . Um I I mean I thought Gemini was pretty good. Gemini 3 was pretty good. It's just that Anthropic seems to really be the best pretty pretty s pretty. Gemini just makes it both Gemini and Chat GPT, I think the default tone of the models in response to a user is just so much more obviously glazing and kind of uh it just has this classic AI tone to its respons es that just feels a bit uh rote. Okay, your microphone is doing it now. What is it doing? I've done nothing. I know. And it was fine at the beginning of the show. And now it's kind of getting it. I think it was just when she turned toward you. Is it that I must do this? No, you shouldn't have to do that. No . Jeff Murr in uh watching on Twitch says Grok is the best. Grok has some good features. It's very good at text to speech. Is is this does he like Grok ? Of course. If you ask him, of course. Dad, which AI is the best? He'll say Grok? Yes, he'll say Elon Musk's Grok. Oh, he loves Grove. Freedom the the E the AI for freedom will probably be his answer . Okay. Well it's, not woke. That's for sure. Yeah, that's why he likes it. That's for sure. It's not a woke AI . He's sick of those woke AI is out there. Yeah, man. I've been trying to pitch him on Claude, and he's uh interested in the concept of open clawing his life. And I'm like, you don't need to get into open claw, you could just use normal Claude, but what is he what would he use it for? What it or does he use it for his work or uh I mean kind of I don't know. I need to give him a full he's like I he's like I need to listen to you guys. I need to figure out what I want to do with my whole show. He should definitely not listen to this show. I know he should not he'd get mad at me. He's gotta come after Leo was gonna come after me. Don't want him don't want your father listening. No, his main thoughts are sometimes uh the little clips of our show come on his TikTok or Instagram. He's like, why are those two old guys talking and you're not able to get a word it. I agree. You know, sometimes them's the break. Sometimes I'm reading tweets. Yeah. We used to give uh Jeff a hard time for tweeting during Now we're all tweeting. No, it's both of these . Um, all right, I've run out of steam. You warm me down. Sam Altman's a son of a bitch. He's got to go . And what else should we talk about? Did we talk about that company last week that the New York Times hyped for being the one point eight billion dollar company on I don't think that is just a fake GLP water. It's awful. It's just a GLP rapper. That's all it is. Three people. How AI uh helped one man and his brother. I don't know. That kind of softens the headline. One man and his brother twice the staff. Twice the staff. Look at him. He looks like one man and his brother. Build a $1.8 billion company. His startup is called Med vi . He built it with R I had a fit at the time because it's it it it glorifies this this nothing company that that 's a telehealth provider of GLP one weight loss drugs. Got three hundred customers in its first month, a thousand more in its second month. In his first full year in business, it generated four hundred million in sales. So the next line is Gary Marcus tearing it apart, as he's want to do. Okay, Gary doesn't like this at all. The backstory behind the first one point eight billion dollar AI company. He quotes Akash Gupta saying that um it per uh it didn't lead with the fact that uh MedV has an FDA warning letter, it has no proprietary technology, no licensed physician network. Uh She el uh Monat uh shows how used AI generated okay see this if Sam Altman had done this this I would agree with is a problem. They used AI generated deep fake before and after photos in their marketing. Look how much this fake human lost. They created 800 plus fake doctors. Oh my God. In Facebook. Well, this is what an AI would do if you said, hey, uh, I want you to make me a lot of money. It was sued in California's anti span law . Um and on and on. So at the end, Marcus says all in all glorifying Medvi is not the New York Times finest hour, and hardly the poster trial Instead, as the YouTube video author avoid zilla notes, if anything, MedV is a warning sign for how AI can be abused. AI built the website. AI runs customer service. A perfect example of how a the f a a billion dollar AI first company is run. Right. You're you're turning my own words against me, aren't you now? As she does. Me? Never . Yeah, I mean honestly, uh as somebody who's on a Zempic uh through an actual physician's prescription and all of that, uh I see a lot of people this they call it the peptide boom. A lot of people using these Chinese uh peptides of questionable uh providence, uh uh trying to lose weight, trying to do all sorts of things, build muscle. And guess who's really a big proponent of this ? Uh the director of health and human services, a guy named Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Yep. He doesn't want you to get a vaccine. But inject yourself with peptides, you go for it. And speaking of uh our favorite publication, the New Yorker had another great piece this week about peptides , where they ordered a lot of um peptides from these companies, like the gray market peptide companies. And one of the things they found is all the peptides I ordered from SwissCAMS had significant issues, they wrote. The vial of BPC one hundred five seven contained lead. The vial of TB five hundred contained endotoxins. And the vial of CJC twelve ninety five contained less than forty-t perwocent of the advertised dose. Are you gonna do a consumer reports expose on this? I think it's uh it's needed. I pitched literally in my application for this job that we should test all these gray market drugs for I would love that. It's slightly different than food safety testing, which is something that's a good beats, but that's all the Viagra's. set laboratory ecosystem for. So it's a bit uh more complicated to get large scale laboratory testing for these things. But can I have a fit about something on line one oh three? Yes, and then we will go to our picks of the week. So go ahead. So I hate opinion polling. I despise it. I quote James Carey, the great late uh Columbia professor, saying that opinion polling preempts the public discourse it is intended to measure. It it shows you nothing but the biases and worldviews and and framing of the pollster. Uh it's the ruin of democracy. But it can get even worse now because now they're not even bothering talking to people. What ? Now they just create synthetic humans. Oh no. And I've seen this happen all over. Silicon Sampling, they call it. Mm-hmm . Because large language models can generate responses that emulate human answers, polling companies see an opportunity, write the New York Times, to use AI agents to simulate survey responses at a small fraction of the cost and time required for traditional polling. You could even make deep fakes of your respondents before and after. Uh wow. just make it up for sale at this point, right? Why not? Just at this point, just make it up. Oh, exactly. I screamed about this uh on on the socials, and some nice person who I can't quote right now because I don't which social it was on, uh said this reminds me of an Asimov story. And indeed, uh Asimov wrote a story called Fran chise in nineteen fifty five, where a supercomputer, multivac, determines the US presidential election outcome by questioning a single randomly chosen citizen, Norman Muller, instead of holding a traditional vote. Set way in the future in two thousand eight. Story explores a future where technology reports. Okay . Um well yeah. What are you gonna do? Are people I mean is this is it is is this gonna happen? Ipsos is doing it? They're working with Stanford? That's crazy. It is crazy. It's awful. Gallup has partnered with a silicon sampler called Sim ile , aptly named, to create one thousand AI generated digital twins. Well, I hate it when when people start doing startups. This is a whole whole um Silicon Valley thing. They they create personas . You're creating a fake human being. You've made up and you've guessed what they need in life and then you say, but now we're gonna we're gonna give her everything she needs because we know what she needs because, we put it on a whiteboard. Yes. Anthony asks a great question in the chat. It's not just a using AI to dial in the questions to get the response you want. You're just polling AI and treating that as if those are responses from people. Well, 'cause it's the average of all humans. Oh boy. Should we all do a big frowny face for uh for the title? Do you buy what Walter Lippmann said? The Times quotes Walter Lippmann's book Public Opinion saying that humans form pictures, basically imaginary pictures in their heads. You don't form any pictures I don't. That's right. I don't have that problem. Which are not real of the way things are in society, and that opinion polling can help uh fix those improper images by telling people what's real. Just that. Except does it really? Well yeah, it it's it's it it it becomes self fulfilling. Why why do people in now in opinion polls say that they they hate and fear AI, but their use of it is going up more than ever? Right. It's the same reason the people say they listen to public broadcast I mean I don't think that's the fault of the polls. I think that's because a lot of media exists uh informs people about AI in a way that makes them upset. Right. But then media goes and does a poll that says see what we were saying everybody believes what we said even though it does it's not borne out in truth. I got one more real quick one. Did you see the Claire Cloudflare uh created a successor to WordPress? Yeah we've like included it Sorry? They like vibe-coded. Yeah, yeah. Who vibe coded what? Cloudflare wrote something called M-dash, which is a uh it's a secure version of WordPress. The problem with WordPress isn't so much WordPress, it's the plugins because there's a huge ecosystem of plugins, often with uh weak or poor security and then a lot of name. Yeah, M dash, isn't that good? Uh I think there's a second reason they they did this, because they want a uh piss off Matt. Well they yeah, everybody's mad at Matt. But also uh and WordPress does control forty percent of the internet, but also because they want uh websites that are easy for AI to scrape and read, and I imagine that's the part of the that's what I wanted to understand. Okay . Part of the business. It's written in TypeScript. It's serverless, which is it's also good for Cloudflare because you can push a button and have a website on Cloudflare . Uh very easy. Plugins are securely sandboxed, so that's how they're hoping to fix this, although Darrenoki has pointed out that any plugin t that accesses the real world is gonna be vulnerable because you have to give it access to the real world through the sandbox Right. Uh so you can't isolate a plug-in that you know in in many cases that's doing anything of use . Uh so it is questionable whether it is gonna solve uh the security issue . Now there's also some question about how long it'll be around. WordPress has been around a long time as well supported. And because they did it uh without uh they they made compatible with WordPress without actually duplicating WordPress code. It's developed in a clean room in effect. They licensed it under the MIT license, which is much more permissive than the WordPress line. They pissed off Matt Mullenwick. And they pissed off Matt Mullenweg, which is probably half of the reason. So it's very simple to spin up uh if you use uh if you have Cloudflare, you go to the Cloud Cloudflare uh dashboard and you can deploy it yourself. And it'd be very easy for an AI to spin up a website for you as well . So I'm not against this. I think that's fine. Then we can go we can go do a poll of all those sites that AI creates. Yes. Find out what the what the people really think. Yeah. Uh well here we are going to get our picks of the week. You get them ready in just a moment. You're watching Intelligent Machines with the Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. And you're watching it thanks to our club. Without the club, I don't know. We wouldn't be able to do as many shows as we do. We wouldn't keep our staff employed. The club get in the club. 30% of our revenue. We do not get four million dollars for our mid-roll ads. We do not get hundreds. We should. We should, I admit it. But uh but thanks to mid-roll ad here for three million dollars. Three million dollars. Such a deal. Uh thanks to our club , we are able to do, I think, great programming, a variety of it. We have the club twit discord, which is full of fabulous people. We do a lot of special programming. Our AI user group is on Friday. That's always fun, two P.M. Pacific, five PM Eastern. Uh we don't know what we're gonna do. Larry and uh Darren, uh our regulars, uh I will be in there. Uh we haven't decided yet on what we're gonna do, but uh something interesting, no doubt. Um if you're not a member of the club, ten bucks a month gets you ad free versions of all the shows, you get s all that extra content, access to the Discord, and the warm and fuzzy feeling of knowing you're supporting the content you love so that it keeps on going. We need your help. We really do. We don't have a a a a sugar daddy like uh like Sam Haltman paying our bills. Go to twit.tv slash club twit and join the club. We'd love to have you . And the more people who join, the more less likely it is I'll have to get Sam Altman to write a check. So there. Pick of the week time . I will kick things off with a fun couple a of fun little ones. You remember I showed you how you can get the uh peons in uh Warcraft to speak for you in your uh Claude. This is fun. This is one of the things people have a problem with is Claude Code uses tokens whenever it talks to you. Even if it's just saying things like, Here's what I worked on today or Hello, well , why not make Claude Code talk in caveman? This is a skill that cuts 65% of tokens by talking like cavem an. Why use any word when few do tricks? Exact ly . Before. The reason your React Component is re-rendering is likely because you created a new object reference on each render cycle. After, new object ref each render. Inline object prop equal new ref equal new render. Wrap in use memo. Saves saves fifty tokens, just like that. Bug in off middleware. But you can pick your level of grunt, which is nice. It even grunts in Chinese, if you want. Those are the Chinese characters for Caveman . Um same answer. You pick how many word . Anyway, it's on GitHub. I think it's funny. I'm not going to use it. I like talking to my claw. Julius Bruce 's GitHub. It's called Cavem an . And then this one I think maybe is a little obscure. How would you like to build your own GPU? This is called MmmVIA Front trans istors to Teraflops . Welcome to MVI. I know your resume said software engineer, but honestly, we need someone on the hardware side. Don't worry. You'll pick it up. Start with the basics. This would be a good way to kind of learn how GPUs work and how computers work. I don't understand it. I don't. But uh as you as you build your own GPU, perhaps you will. That's all I have to say about that. It is at J A S O ten twenty four dot com slash M VD. And now Paris, your thing. I got two very disparate picks today The first is uh someone pointed out to me on Blue Sky that the New York City Department of Records and Information Services recently updated their archive, which means there's a bunch more old cool records in New York City history now and there, such as New York Police Department Bertillion cards, uh which is just a bunch of old pictures of people who've been charged with grand larceny and hats They have great hats. What the hell is going on with that hat? I don't know, but we gotta figure it out and bring it back. Fat . Um there's honestly just like a lot of fascinating hats and haircuts going on. It seems to be hats are really uh the big the big thing here. I mean I think if you were wearing a hat, you're gonna be doing oh my, go to Bet Bessie Ross at the bottom. She's got a huge hat and she's got a side photo with no hat and appears to be dressed like a pirate. She it's the very last one. Well she's clearly larcinous. Oh yeah, there you go. Shoplifting. Shoplifting. She probably stole that hat. She probably didn't. Was a great thing to uh steal. I don't know. There's great stuff, uh like stuff from the New York W NYC radio in 19 uh 24 . There's a WNYC mov ing images. There's WNYC is that old? 1924? Really? Wow. There's uh surveillance films. Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff going on in here. So I don't know. Black and white 16 million millimeters silent surveillance films. Whoa. This is also has uh some of my favorite um things are the tax department photographs. Dre not new, but is basically you can look up any uh address in New York City and see what it looked like in the forties and the eighties because they had to take a photo of every building. Don't say it on air. But you can 't do it. Oh. The salt hanks. Oh, we can look that up. This is from nineteen forty. Mr. Tolsto y. It's a stunning thing to meet the survivors of the heroic group of Russians who fought their way for four years. Okay, that's boring. A lot of it is uh is is parties and things. I have a wild air. I really will I just say it's a l it's a lot of fun perusing theory. Yeah, no kidding. What the history my other wreck is uh on Friday a friend took me to a Nets game. It was my first time ever going to professional basketball. I think I have to I have to hand it to you guys. I think basketball is good. Basketball is kind of awesome, and I think I'm gonna get I'm contemplating getting tickets to multiple Liberty games. W It's honestly I just I think my issue is I'd always seen basketball on the TV and everything's very small and just displayed. better and In person? What a physical sport. They're giants and they move so fast. They're giants and they move so fast, Bimmy though. That is I couldn't put it any better. Nimble Giants. Yep. It was electric. So I don't know. Go see a basketball game would be my recommendation. It would be a good time to be a Knicks fan, by the way. I mean it's a good time to be a Knicks fan right now. So I mean, yeah, maybe I'll be a Knicks. Well the thing is things that play at play plays are really close are really ideal for me because I can just walk home from Berkeleys, which is the ideal way to see a basketball game. Oh yeah, but that's not making the playoffs anytime soon, sorry. Doesn't matter New Yorker or No, no, no. I'm deciding to get into WNBA though, I think. I think that's better. That's where the action is . New York Liberty is hot and they play at Barclays , and I've heard that all the teams are dating Do people ask you, Paris, because you're tall whether you played uh basketball in high school? No, people did when I was in like high school and middle school. But you should never join a team because they're going to win. And if they lose, it's even better because then you're going to be able lost on Friday when I was seeing them against the Atlanta This is you're not a fan if you 're part of being a New Yorker. Yeah. It's also I know so little about sports. Not for any particular reason. It's just hasn't there's other things to know I know but it was the highlight of my life together with my friend who's a huge this is the same friend who explained baseball to me at the final game of the world series so I just had him explain basketball to me while we're there. Delightful time. Did is this the same friend you took to get a tattoo? Yeah, but I didn't get a tattoo. You didn't? No, but I'm going to. Just not. I wasn't, I was busy this weekend. Okay. Here is the uh by the way, thanks to Darren, the picture of us uh with the caveman version of the show. Much shorter, fewer words. Oh, Jeff looks uh different. Yeah. I want like the microphones. Microphones, the bone microphones are fantastic. Jeff Jarvis, pick of the week. All right, uh changing media times. Uh it looks like QVC and company are going bankrupt and pretty much out of business. Where do I get my capita monte? No kitten. How about my knives? Internet. Huh? Oh no. How could you lose money with a home shopping network? Well, 'cause we have the internet now. Because the internet So that's one how is How is the QVC for knives doing though? How is the cutlery corner doing is my question. Can I still cut shoes in half? That can break those costs can add up. That can add up. Those costs can add up. QVC HSN Cable Networks Chapter Eleven Insolvency. It may not have enough cash to continue operating. Wow. Amazing, huh? Wow. So at other media news, the Associated Press is about to do a big layoff. TikTok is QVC now. Yeah, TikTok is you're right. That's the thing. You're right. That's exactly what it is. There's a man on Cutlery Corner right now with a TikTok e-boy mustache and little tiny tattoos selling something called a sling blade. Oh, they calls it a sling blade. It's a great movie with Billy Bob Thornton. Wow. It's his first movie, Sling Blade. Well, in more serious news, the Associated Press is doing a layoff, uh focused on people serving the newspapers, because newspapers are now only ten percent of the AP's business and uh going down rapidly as newspaper companies are dropping the AP like crazy. Well, and this is in the AP, by the way. What what will happen to the AP? Um it's it's it it it it's selling to Calci . It's selling yeah. That was another story is how the networks, including Fox, are all now in partnerships. Yeah. All right. And and and now inspired by your effort to save tokens, Leo, and inspired by the Associated Press, I asked Gemini to to remind me of cable ease, the language that was used by especially journalists when they're they were charged by the word. So they would combine words, for example, my favorite was to onpass this rather than pass on. Why is on pass faster than pass on as well. Because it's one word instead of two. You were charged by the word. Others according to who is charging you by the word? The the the the Western Union. Especially if you were overseas. Down hold was to hold down, off put was to put off, in phone was to phone a story into the desk, out check was to check out, up stick was to move or get ready to leave. Then there were the Latin prefix system, which I didn't realize. Com e, no jokes now. C U M was used for with, as in cum bicycle, meant with it with a bicycle. If you said ex London , you meant from London. If you said et Lond on, or oh sorry, et was used for and so and his wife, Sans, pro-ante , uh unproceed, do not proceed. Unnews, no news at this time. I like that. That's kind of you know certain weeks here can be it was the unnews. Unnews. It's an unnews week. Unfind, could not find. Unfired, do not fire. But a reporter was reinstated . And then we had words like lead spelled L-E-D-E. Oh that's where that came from? No, that was just to make sure that it was it was not that and T K to come with K were so that you could use it in text, but it would be spot and finding different So just a little bit so that's maybe maybe we need cable Ease, we need AIEs to save you tokens . Maybe to end the show, wasn't it ? Oh what? Oh yeah. Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate that. we don't. We do intelligent machines every Wednesday, 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern, 2100 UTC. I hope you will come by and watch us. We do it live for you uh which is fun for us because then we can see you in the chat room you can watch if you're in the club in the club to discord or youtube for everybody twitch x.com facebook linkedin or kick . Uh after the fact , get shows at our website, twit.tv slash im. There's a YouTube channel dedicated to the audio or video rather. Well actually it has audio too. It's both. It's a new format. It's called audio and video. Or subscribe checkck it it out che out man subscribe in your favorite out check it on and let 's think of anything more brief than that um I should just say that we're done out check it on and let Hey there, it's Leo Laporte, host of so many shows on the TWIT Network, thinking about advertising in 2026. We host a network of the most trusted shows in tech, each featuring authentic post-red ads delivered by Micah Sargent, Mike Co-host, and of course me. Our listeners don't just hear our ads, they really believe in them because we've established a relationship with them. They trust us. According to Twit fans, they've purchased several items advertised on the Twit network because they trust our team's expertise in the latest technology. If TWIT supports it, they know they can trust it. In fact, 8 8% of our audience has made a purchase because of a twit ad. Over 90% help make IT and tech buying decisions at their companies. These are the people you want to talk to. Ask David Coover. He's a senior strateg ist at ThreatLocker. David said, Twit's hosts are some of the most respected voices in technology and cybersecurity, and their audience reflects that same level of expertise and engagement. It's the engagement that really makes a difference to us. With every campaign, you're gonna get measurable results, you get presence on our show episode pages. In fact, we even have links right there in the RSS feed descriptions. Plus, our team will support you every step of the way. So if you're ready to reach the most influential audience in tech, email us partner at twit.tv or head to twit.tv slash advertise. I'm looking forward to telling our qualified audience about your great project I'm not a human be ing , not into this animal scene . I'm an intelligent machine .