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It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff and Paris are here, and our guest this hour is Craig Maud. He's a photographer, a walker, he likes to take walks, lives in Japan, and loves AI. AI and the humanities. Next on Intelligent Machines podcasts you love from people you trust this is twit this isel Intligent machines with paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, episode 866, recorded Wednesday, April 15th, 2026, on Bonkers for Yonkers. It's time for Intelligent Machines the, show where we cover the latest in AI and robotics, and all the dood ads, gym cracks, and gee ga o gaws around you. Speaking of goo gaze, here's Paris Martinau, who did not find the appropriate Googa to connect her headphones. She was looking spent uh a good fifteen minutes at the beginning of this thing looking for a goo ga in job that both Jeff, Leo, Benito, and seemingly everybody has. I do have one as well. The Jack to connect a big headphone jack to a little, but I can't find it. I can find this dual-ended tiny headphone jack that I've just realized when I stretch it like this smells foul and chemically in a way that I'm sure resulted in losing some brain. The technical term is a big to small. A small to big. Small to big. That's the technical term. Yeah, I was looking for a I was looking for a big to small and I've only got small terms. A big outie and a uh a little innie or something like that. Anyway. U uhh h Helloello, Paris , investigative journalist at uh Consumer Reports, who was on deadline, right? I was. Are you still on deadline ? In a way, but in a different way. I guess the virtue of deadline is it doesn't last . Yes, I m hit that deadline that I was talking about last week, and while I was on that deadline, I found out that I was up for a deadline club award, which is kind of fun. Congratulations. I mean I'll find out whether I actually win next month, but I'm going to finally go any farther. Let me introduce your professor of journalistic innovation, Emeritus at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism Hi. He's got the goo ga. So tell us about this uh deadline award. Is this a big deal, Jeff? Yeah, yes, absolutely. It's your it's your kind. It's the Oscars of New York Journalism. Oh , yeah. Fantastic . For the lead. Um yeah, on an award magazine investigative reporting. It's part of a package called Consumer Reports Protecting Food Safety in Amer ica features my work and two of my colleagues. That that you're a shoe in . That should be a no brainer. Don't jinx her. You know, we'll find out come May 14th. Is there a awards ceremony? There is. A dinner, I don't doubt. Of course. How fun. It'll be very funny . A tuxedo for the occasion? I should get a tuxedo. You should. You could wear that too. Well maybe it'll be hot. Maybe I'll I should wear that suit. Somebody told me actually Kelly Rippa and Mark Consuelo on Monday told me it was gonna be eighty eight degrees in New York City today. It is eighty seven right now. My AC unit is blasting. And frankly, I need to get my second AC unit and my window reinstalled. It's not even possible. It's it's April. My wife just scolded me for opening the bathroom window. Well, you know, she came in through the bathroom wind ow . Yeah. That sh that really landed You don't neither of you know the Beatles apparently. Okay, never mind. It's a Beatles song. Don't I'm sorry I brought it up. We're gonna uh kick things off today on intelligent machines by talking to somebody I've been an admirer of for a long time, especially because of his attitude uh towards life. Craig Maud is our guest, a photographer, a writer, a w alker. He lives in Japan, so it's uh early morning for him. Craig, uh welcome to Intelligent Machines. Good to see you. Hey, thanks for having me. Yeah. The reason I was interested, you know, our show's about AI. Uh and a lot of what we talk about and the people we talk to are uh geeks , but you're a humanist who loves AI and loves technology and uses technology. And so I think that makes it a a kind of an interesting conversation . I guess though if you're a photographer, y that counts a little bit 'cause that's absolutely uh at these days anyway, uh a technological uh hobby or business. Well yeah, I mean I think you know photography has always been technological. Right. Photography's always been the kind of the the the domain of mega dorks. You know, I mean that was sort of I mean it's like it's always been so dorky. And you know, there was an element of gatekeeping too with that dorkery. Right. Uh where, you know, uh in until the late nineties, early two thousands when Nikon started making Sony started making potentially usable in professional settings digital cameras, um you know, that the idea of like being in the darkroom and knowing the magic of chemicals, that was really a a a sort of way of protecting a domain, you know. And I think photographers were really freaked out when digital photography happened because it was sort of a loss of that control or that loss of that kind of like mage in the in the the high castle sort of situation that for so long was uh you know tipi typifying of ph photography. Yeah, suddenly everybody was there. Yeah, yeah. Like when AOL out of the internet. It's uh the welcome welcome to the unwashed masses. Yeah, exactly. What was it, the eternal September? Yeah, that's what they called it. Yeah . Um Craig, as you might know, uh is a writer. He's written for everybody, you know, Wired and Atlantic, and he's got two books, and he's actually uh kind of got an interest ing uh l lifestyle because you support yourself uh with this the thing you call uh what is it, special members? Special projects. Special projects. Uh which is a membership like it's like a Patreon, but it's your own thing. Yeah, exactly. Well it's it's run the membership component is handled by Memberful. Okay. We use Memberful also. I like Memberful. That's a Patreon company. Exactly, owned by Patreon. And and Patreon's actually been a pretty hands off steward of the uh you know of of the whole thing. In in a sense, Memberful was acquired I think maybe six years ago and it's You wouldn't know it's a Patreon company, which is You would not know.. Yeah So I I use it simply as kind of a an interface in the back end to handle subscribing, unsubscribing, dealing with billing, which it goes through stripe anyway. Um and then everything else I've kind of scaffolded on top of my uh as my own. So there's I'm not actually using any of Memberful's um you know, blogging components or podcast components or anything like that. We use them to hook up people to uh Discord, which is very handy. So we have a Discord channel, people are watching right now on our Discord channel, and we use them uh because it makes it easy for us to have a dedicated podcast feeds for members. But you you're right. I mean it it's really mostly about getting kind of the bookkeeping out of the way. Yeah, yeah, the bookkeeping and and yeah, just having some third party with a little bit of responsibility there. But you know the the Discord thing is funny. I had for years members clamoring for a Discord and then members making sort of uh unofficial Discords and uh I finally made one about two and a half years ago and I really didn't. It just felt to me like way too much And then the software itself was a lot and boosting and all this. So I so last year the first thing I did with Claude Cloud Code was I made my own Twitter and that has become our members sort of like Discord chat and it's wonderful. It's so good. It's such a a lovely environment. It's uh it's actually shocking how how great it,'s been. And I check it every day. We have a whole community of people who are in there every day. And the fact that it's not real time, I think, is really important. So you don't feel that like chat room element. Of course, you can't do things like this where you can live stream and have a conversation around uh we used for years IRC, and I still am a big fan of IRC, but because there was no easy way to make it a members-only thing, uh we just use Discord by default because that's what memberful supports, I would far prefer to use IRC without all of the bells and whistles. It's much simpler. So yeah, this is so this is why I wanted to have you on intelligent machines because here you here you are. You I mean you did uh major in digital media, right? I mean you're not a an alien to technology. No, no, no, no. I mean I grew up I was I s you know, I started programming when I was nine or ten and I was running a BBS, you know, or teens and and all that stuff. So um no and and my degree is fine arts and computer science. But that's what's great. It's this it's it it it seems rare that you get this kind of oh what Steve Jobs called the intersection of technology and humanities. But uh I think that's maybe the most interesting intersection of all. Uh we don't we don't want to become machines. And machines should only be in service of us as humans. Right. So I l I I think that I really appreciate how you've stayed a humanist um and yet are embed em you know, you s as you say in your piece your on your new website, software bonkers. You you you c now when did you f start using clawed code? A year ago, right when it came out. Um well I remember uh you know you'd you you'd kinda use chat GPT to get snippets and stuff and you paste it in. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah. And then Cloud Code came out and it was like wow, this is this is pretty. This is some sort of next level uh to implant instantiation of it. But you know, it's like today using cloud code and I use it with you know all these skills and plugins and stuff now and uh you know a year ago it looks you know positively archaic um November I cut I I trace it to November twenty fourth twenty twenty five, the release of Opus four six. Yeah. Something happened. Yeah. Yeah, it could do stuff. It could do stuff, and then also the tooling around it I think got better. You know, I was hanging out with uh Kevin Rose a month ago or so and and we were just going through his workflow uh and he's just completely like one billion percent AI you know sort of like maximalist. He's got like 10 agents going at every every every moment doing a hundred million different things. Um but I was looking at kind of what he was using. I was like, oh okay, this is this is interesting. And actually until a month ago, I was still of this mindset that I needed to look at all of the code that was being changed and I needed to understand every line that was being implemented by Claude. And something for me in the last month or six weeks I've shifted where now I'm just like I don't I don't need to see anything. I don't I I I don't care. Um and that You don't care or you trust it. So actually that's a really important distinction. Because it may not be the best code. You don't care. Yeah. Well I mean I don't care in the sense of like the speed at which now we can produce things uh and I know and it just keeps getting better. And so I kinda see a lot of what I'm working on today as almost like throwaway code and it's disposable. Yeah. It's disposable. That's what Harper Reed said. He said don't it doesn't matter. You throw it away. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, make the MVP, see if it w see how things feel, and then if it needs to be really beefed up and and given you know, g given the full work over, then great. Okay, go back with it. But in six months the tools are gonna be so much better anyway. So it's this weird I I and the and the and I I wrote another piece uh that published last week just talking about this sort of like the loss of purpose that is sort of off in the horizon. That's kind of you know, you see all these eulogies for coding every day. Even today there was some big post about Vim and the death of coding 'cause of you know Vim is an emacs guy, you can take your Vim, I don't care. But but it's not that. There is that sense that we had something uh we we were wizards. Yeah. Exactly. We had the keys to the kingdom, and now god damn it, everybody can do it and we're not special . Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is. It's very strange. But to but I I like has there ever been a technological shift that's happened so quickly, I think is is to me that that that's the big shock is to go from a year ago, nobody people going, Oh yeah, you can kinda code and you can copy and paste to now you know, folks just eulogizing programming every day. Another person saying it's you know, we're it's done, forty years I spent the skill set. Is it the end of coding? I d I do think well look, I think coding I if we're talking about I if we're talking about mass produced code, I think it's been dead for a long time. Like I think that the idea of craft encoding for most commercial software. Like we're in Zoom right now. This to me I only ever open Zoom to do stuff like this and every time I do, I'm just in shock. Like this is this is absolutely the worst piece of software that I've opened on my computer in We should make our own. Like this is a great like You could, couldn't you? We we could easily do better than this. I mean come on, some someone out there, you could do better than this. But like look, okay, if this is like state of the art human made software, this is terrible. This is like this is not winning to begin with. For me, I use stuff like things, uh and I'm and you know NeoVim or what like these other pieces of software like MIME stream is a is an email program I use and these all feel like r genuinely crafted like craftsmanship made pieces of software. And that , I think, even with LLMs and cloud code assisted whatever programming, that's not gonna go away. No. You're s you're gonna have people that can use this stuff uh as a as a sort of like superpower and be able to do more in a crafty way and you're gonna have more people dump and jump junk out into the world too and it's the I mean the analog with photograp with photography is really s uh astounding actually. Yes because people there will still be people who will use a Leica with a rangefinder and be able to take one picture every four minutes and there will be people who will right will people will be taking a thousand pictures a second with their burst mode on their iPhone. Yeah. Um it's the death of maybe industrial software. Yeah. But it will never be the death of the artisan. Um the art because you know why I think humans create and we want to create and we enjoy creating. And uh coding is a is a f another form of creation that's you know unlike woodwork or any other kind of uh craft. Absolutely. So you you said in this piece, your first Clawedode c project was to rebuild Twitter. Yeah. As I thought it should be. So obvious it's obvious what's wrong with Twitter today, but even the pre-Elon Twitter you weren't happy with. No, it always made me uncomfortable. Twit I mean I'm even the name, the the first you know, name it was TWT R, right? Even that was gave me anxiety. This by the way, it's twentieth anniversary of the first tweet is was uh Monday. Yeah. So I think we're there's a certain generation of online people that think everything should be archived and I think that's just uh like a a really that's a wrong narrative. And one of the you know, I I hang out with Kevin Kelly a lot, we go on walks and and kinda do um you know, these sort of like roundtable discussions. And one of my heresies that I hold uh and I kinda sort a little bit facetiously is that I think the entire internet every w every two weeks should be entirely deleted. Wow. I think I think just Don't tell Brewster Cale that. Wow. Well you could by my my theory is like if you if you did that, then people would be, you know, archiving what needed to be archived, you could print out what needed to be printed out, all these things, but every two weeks you get this kind of completely clean slate. Clean slate. Yeah, a clean slate. That's the idea. And um Yes, that's a good point because nobody really wants to see what they tweeted twelve years ago. That's embarrassing. It's only bad things. Yeah, exactly. No one's ever been like, oh my God, I'm I'm so happy I have that tweet from twelve years ago. Someone's quoting for me. So you you think it should be Swedish death cleaning with your social . Yeah, basically. Yeah. Does it not spark joy? Spark joy. Yes. Uh so anyway, uh Twitter I think should've you know, I think should have been doing that. I love things that disappear, ephemerality um online. And so that was you know, it's like all the posts should be disappearing. Uh a limit to how much you can post every day, so you you're actually just thinking about what you're putting up there, what you're how you're engaging with it. There are people, including uh the president of the United States, who post hundreds of times a day. It's like don't you have something to do? Well, it's the same reason why, like, should we be able to do sports betting 24 hours a day in our pocket? Probably not. I mean there's just there's just certain there's just certain things we're not our monkey brains are not wired for. So to be able to pull a a lever to get dopamine at any moment of the day. Most s sort of uh maliciously every moment of the night, you know, in the middle of night, three in the morning. Um I think that's bad. And then uh yeah, just it's uh again, non-algorithmic, uh, because the the the nature of my community is it's not four hundred million people tweeting. You can just keep a reverse cron timeline so you're not doing algorithmic stuff. And I don't know. Just that that it to me it was very simple what how it could work. This is real. This is your special projects m yeah group. And it's called well and and the the version of Twitter I made is called the good place. And when you add it to your home screen on the iPhone, it you the icon is Ted Danson's head. So it's uh you have to say things like oh fudge and shut the front door. I should add a add a function that yeah rewrites everybody's uh swears. This is interesting. All images appear in one bit black and white. Yeah . And then you click on it and you can see it. Yeah, exactly. Is that so they don't draw they suck don't suck you in? Yeah, just I don't know. Yeah it's just like kind of an aesthetic uh little bit of playfulness. Yeah. And I really like this, which is no algorithm. It's just in order. Yeah. I I almost feel guilty being a a Twitter user around 2010, 2011, 2012 because you know you'll remember everybody was on it. Everyone who's a writer, a journalist, and you could just connect with people and it didn't have the algorithm making stuff sort of like i inviting or or rewarding toxicity or or this kind of the virality garbage that you see, the slop you see everywhere now. And um it was you know, you could really build up a a an audience and a c and sort of a a career you could connect with every you know all you know my audience was was hugely built up on Twitter. You know, you'd write an essay, you'd put it up there, you'd have five hundred more people subscribe to your newsletter, you know, the next day. It was kind of it was kind of wild. It was a it was a it was sort of a heyday of that stuff. Did you write this before Opus four six? You wrote this last year? I wrote this last year, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was pretty pretty But this is the thing is you know, with open open source software kind of being the main the corpus for for all this uh you know all the all the the the models training for programming. Um none of these pieces are unique. And so it's you can kind of, you know, most software is not in reinventing the wheel. It's about putting you know different Well that's why Claude Code's good at it, right? Because it's it's seen it. Exactly. It's seen the code. When I wrote a uh newsreader and it immediately knew what a read newsreader should be and what it should have, because it's seen a hundred of them Yeah, exactly. In fact, I had to I had to tell it no. I don't I don't want um I don't want to star articles. I don't want I mean I I had to tell it not to do some things at most feed readers do because the reason I wanted a custom feed reader is to strip it down to just the things I really needed for speed. Yeah. Um how long did it take you to write the good place ? Um Uh probably about a week, maybe, kind of on and off. Um I'm kind of amazed . And and it's still and it runs well, it's it's reliable and Oh, it's incredible. Yeah, it's just very simple. Yeah, it's so You wrote exactly what you wanted. This is the thing that I I think is so empowering. Is software can be personal. It Yeah, well Robin Sloan has a great essay called uh Software as a home home cooked meal. Yeah. And so this idea that you can kind of make the perfect meal you want in the form of software. Uh and you know, and this is where you bump into the issues with the App Store on Apple is like it creates so much friction between wanting to do this stuff and putting it out there and getting it out there and having people use it in the sense you need a developer account, you need to, you know, submit it, it needs to be approved, all this stuff. Whereas like when you're building things like I built with the good place . Um it's just on a uh digital ocean server and you know it's locked down and everything and I use Flask. It's web-based. Uh but you know you use these Python frameworks and you know it's databases now are are so so good and lightweight, SQLite is amazing. Um so you don't need to spin up separate servers for that. There's a there's a lot that um you can do very quickly when you when you work off the web. And I do wonder if this is gonna be a hindrance for sort of uh the IOS sort of growth going forward is is not being able to deploy as quickly as you want to, um, being a thing that keeps people, you know, out of the I was really hopeful for a progressive web apps, PWAs, and I was very disappointed that uh Apple decided not to really fully support it. Even Firefox kind of uh uh turned away from it because I do think that there is an opportunity uh if it's a web web technology is so well understood and so easy to implement. Yeah uh you don't really need standalone apps for most things if you have the right uh services in the background, you know, have the right tools that can remember where you were and things like that. That's true. Um so this is all uh if if you uh become I'm I'm gonna join 'cause I wanna see this new this new better Twitter for sure. I bet it's a great community too. I think it's uh always great to have a community that people have to pay, even if it's just a little bit of a Yeah. Well i i I I agree. I mean that is sort of one of the things that makes it makes it good is that it you know it's the uh the unwashed masses aren't allowed in. It is an elevator You're such an elitist. It's also not Epstein Island. So it's uh there are all kinds of islands, aren't there? Ten bucks a year, a hundred dollars a yearly, or become a lifetime member and surprise the heck out of Craig and scare me, he says. A little bit. Um I've surprisingly I've had I've had so many lifetime members that so many that I feel like I should I should probably raise that price. Uh this is your sole support ? Yeah, this in book sales. That's fantastic. Yeah. You're living the life. Well the I was I was really lucky in that I found product market fit between the membership program and uh book selling books. Yeah um because it turns out so I make you know I do these fine art editions of books. I had a book come out with Random House last year as well, Things Become Other Things, and then I have these uh fine art editions that you can see there on the left on um uh that are uh basically a hundred dollars a book, uh limited editions, signed, b,lah bla bhlah,, uh printed and bound in Japan. And you know, I worked it I've worked in the publishing industry in physical books for decades, and the idea of selling a lot of hundred dollar books is just not something anyone uh thinks about or uh is able to do. And so when I first started producing these, which was about six years ago now, I produced a thousand copies of this hundred dollar book and I thought, okay, it'll take me like two years to sell all these. And we sold out in two days. Wow. And I did this thing where if you pay it $100 to join the membership program, you got $40 off the book. So you people were landing on this buy page, they saw a hundred dollar book and they thought, okay, well, I can pay a hundred dollars to get the book, or I can pay $100 to join the membership program plus $60 to get the book. So I'll pay $160 for the book. And the conversion rate of people who weren't members already was something like 30%, which is just an insane number to get people to convert over to joining a membership program. So I've just kept that going. We've reprinted that first book six times. Uh this I've had two other books come out. This random house book has sold really we've gone the random house book has gone back to print twice. So I've been really, really lucky. And yeah, the the two of those together work really well. What are you working on uh now with Claude ? Uh well, it's tax season. So you're writing your own tax software? Now that's nuts. Well, it turns out it's not it's not as hard as it looks. It's like Well, I guess you can look up all the time. Yeah. So all the tax tables and everything. Well and I'm in this. Are you worried about hallucination ? Well, no, because it's verifiable and I still employ accountants. So okay. So so uh you know, I'm in this um a really annoying position of being an American who doesn't live in America, meaning that you still have to file uh taxes back in America and in in in the place where you're domiciled. So I'm in Japan, so I'm filing in Japan and then I have to file in America the next month. And um it's really exhausting. And I have bank accounts in both countries and uh reconciling stuff and there's no literally no accounting software out there where that will handle the Japan side of things and the US side of things that will help me track transfers between countries because you know you transfer a thousand bucks over and it takes a day and the exchange rates fluctuate, and so that the software can't mash it precisely, and it's in yen over here, and it's dollars over here. Well, guess what? Uh Claude is really smart at this stuff, and you can you can tell it to have fuzzy matching around these things and you can say here this these are how I do my transfers and you can you can build an a piece of accounting software with this reconciliation mind in the background that is just able to do a 10 times better job than you could ever do, 10 times faster. And then of course you go through and you can, you know, you can uh check everything and you can r you know update stuff that needs to be fixed or whatever, but the general kind of uh reconciliation of cross-border accounting um has gone from me from from being almost impossible in this concoction of I was using Google spreadsheets and then Google uh script in in Google Sheets to like convert stuff you know between you dollars and yen and then export that and then get one account in this spreadsheet and another account in the other this other spreadsheet. And I basically built this this my for me, what is the perfect accounting software . And at the end of the day, I push one button, it makes a zip file. It's got all the 1099s and all the other PDFs and forms, medical records, medical uh receipts, other receipts, everything is itemized perfectly. It knows how to the scheduling uh for American expenses versus Japanese expenses. Uh it's looking at depreciations over the years. I can feed in you know last year's uh tax tax re port or uh tax filings and say this is how we classify things and it goes okay great now I see that let me let me get you set up for this year so you're you're doing the same things. It's it's wild and it actually since I published the software bonkers thing where I talk about this, uh a representative from Quicken reached out to me and uh wanted to do a meeting. So We we want to buy Texbot two thousand. I mean So you say this took you five days to write. Yeah. I mean, do you think anybody could do this, Craig? It seems to me. I would I'm not I look I pretty proficient. I don't know if I would try to tackle this. You just I mean were you just was it iterative where you go, okay, now let's uh I we gotta figure out how to do this conversion. Was it like that? Was it a back and forth process? A lot of back and forth. It was it definitely it wasn't one shot and I had you know perfect software. But it it was you know, I mean part of the thing about working with so with with models like Claude is it does require and it forces you to really think through what it is you're looking for. So you write specs essentially, Do you start in plan you start in plan mode then? Start in plan mode, in brainstorm mode actually. I use Do you use uh yeah, what tools do you use in Claude? Yeah, there's there's a I I know Gary I think Gary Tan has a set of things ? Yeah. Well, he's the YC president. He put out a YC pres, yeah. He's got his set of tools, but I've been using Every. There's a company called Every that put out a set of skills that They're just skills. They're just prompts mostly, right? You do brainstorm and then you do and then you do planning and then you do working. And um I found it's it's worked really, really well. So you know you go into brainstorming and you start with saying, Hey, here 's a folder, literally just running it in my tax folder and saying, Hey, here's a folder with all of my tax stuff. Um take a peek at E V-R-Y. Yeah, Every, I think is the name of the game. The problem is it's such a generic word . I'm having a hard time. There you go. Is it everything quad code? No, it's not. It's not. Um there's a set of uh You're seeing my screen, by the way. If you want if you're tired of seeing my screen, there's a tab in the upper left of your Zoom that's cleverly hidden and you can click that and then you won't see my screen as I Oh wow, there we go. Okay. We had not told you that. That's that's less apologize. It's much less distracting because I'm always doing so uh yeah, 'cause I'm very interested in uh there it is. Every ink compound engineering plug in is that 's the one. Compound engineering, exactly. All right, I'm gonna try it. You know what I found, Craig, is is I have been erasing my Clawed Code setup every once in a while to start from scratch because I moving so fast that a lot of the things I do with skills now are built in the Claude and yep. It's it's a it's a it's a moving target. No do you you use the Claude Max subscription? What is your Claude uh subscription? Yeah, yeah. I switched to the two hundred a month. I mean I was I was I it's which which when they announced it, I was like, I'm never gonna pay two hundred dollars a month for anything. Yeah, who's gonna do that? And now I'm like th at least it's not five hundred 'cause I'd probably spend that as well. I mean I'm getting so much value. Well if you yes, you just saved that much pr uh in s tax program subscriptions. Oh it pays for itself. Easily. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean now if I could only reprogram all of Adobe software, that would be uh that would be even better. Well you know there how many hours in a day are there? So I wanted to ask you you live in Japan, you've lived there for two decades now. Yeah, yeah. Uh what are the attitudes towards AI like in Japan? You know, uh I've heard that in other countries here in the United States, about fifty percent of the public thinks it's the devil incarnate. Okay. And the other fifty percent cannot s or uh cannot stop using it. And keep telling the other half, What are you what are you crazy? This stuff's great. Uh and uh there are a lot of people say, Oh no, uses too much energy, it's it's gonna kill us someday. I mean they're people are very afraid of it. What's the attitude of Japan? Japan is I don't think is quite as hyperbolic as the US in general. Um it's a little more it's a little more relaxed. I mean, this is also a country that still uh you know faxes stuff. You can order bentos from faxing. There's a guy, you know, there's a there's a jazz cafe I like to visit, and the only way to to to find out if it's gonna be open is if you fax him. I love that stuff. They invented the facts because they you know they had to. Yeah. That's hysterical. They still fax. They're legally obligated to keep factsing because they made it. But the um the the AI thing is funny because there's been electoral candidates who've been running on the platform of I'm gonna use AI to make all my decisions. So like an AI mayor, uh things like trust ing uh have been popping up and people seem to be like weirdly kind of into it. Um so yeah, it's not quite you know, in the in the US, even today that that eulogy for Vim or whatever I was reading earlier, um the crux of it is this is terrible, it creates slop, it's bad for the environment, it's using up too much energy , it's using up too much water, all this stuff that um I think are on one hand very fair arguments, but these are also arguments that everyone made towards crypto, and the thing that ended up killing like destroying NFTs or stopping NFTs wasn't uh the fact that it was ecologically damaging, it was because they were essentially useless. And so I mean it that's that's a good reason. That's that's how you that's how stuff gets doesn't get used anymore. You know, and I think that you know AI is is proving to be so profoundly useful that we're just gonna have to figure out the energy stuff. It's not no one's gonna stop using this. You can't you can't walk back on this. So uh I I find those hardliners a little bit overly disconnected from reality and almost you know, that's someone you just can't have a conversation with at this point. I mean, we should we should have, you know, you read books like The Making of the Atomic Bomb, you look at the the history of atomic energy and stuff like that, and like we should just have better energy programs. We should just be have cleaner energy, more renewables. I mean it's like we should the the the energy question, any any way we can accelerate getting better energy out in the world and moving us to away from naturalal gas and co and all this stuff is is something we should be celebrating and I think this is this is part of that acceleration uh is is the demand that's gonna come for for AI because it is so useful . I agree a hundred percent. And maybe you can even help us solve some of these problems. I don't know. Do you ever feel like it's uh sentient? I mean, do you what's your relationship with Claude? I I mean How clear are you that it's just a program, is what I'm asking. I'm very clear that it's just a program. I'm actually reading Michael Pollan's new book on consciousness. I haven't read it in the years. Can't wait, yeah. It is it's great. I'm 64% through, uh so says my Kindle. And uh you know, it's one of these books where the more you read, the less you feel like you know and the more confusing it becomes. And one thing that you you do pick up from it is the complexity of consciousness is so beyond language, and it's so beyond uh feeding, you know, more language corpus into these models. That I you know I think the world model stuff that um some of the the early AI guys now broke and splintered off from open AI and are raising money around, I think are heading in the in the in the direction that may lead to something closer to consciousness. But I think the things we have right now are just are not conscious, but they are very, very good at performing a lot of the tasks we ask of it. Um, you know, and sometimes those tasks are being a therapist or being a you know, a shoulder to cry on. Uh and it just turns out that uh you can get most of the way there with with what we have. But I d I I have no I harbor no illusion that this thing is thinking or feeling or you know anything like that. I think that's that's that's very far away. It would be terrifying. And but it would also it's diminishing to humans. What we are the the resolution that we are taking in every moment is so high. Uh, and it's so profoundly weird consciousness. And I was doing this meditation retreat the other day, and I was just thinking about how just fundamentally bizarre it is that we're we sit quiet ly and we have this person that exists in internally and it's able to gaze inward. I mean we're doing we're doing so many things that are are just this mishmash of crazy chemicals that have you know come about over millions of of years y of brute forcing uh better versions of ourselves that I think uh without some kind of like gr huge computing uh boosts, quantum computing or something, that w c consciousness in a machine is still quite a ways off . my my layman's take. Do you say please and thank you when you talk to Claude? Yeah, because I don't want to be a jerk in real life, so it's good to practice. I can't help it. I can't ha I I know I'm just like you. I look I know it's a computer program. It's not a person . Uh I don't have quite your faith in uh the uniqueness of our own abilities as humans. I'm not sure that we're not just stochastic parrots. But I still say please and thank you to the machine, just in case. Oh, like don't get me wrong. I think we are are definitely computer ish based. I don't b I don't necessarily believe in this sort of other entity kind of operating. Um but I just think the the computing is is I mean if you think about the efficiency and the the low wattage that we're doing what we're doing with . Um there's there's some other there's some other computing insight that's happened there that that's pretty amazing. But um I will say the one thing I am not polite to is Siri. I'm never polite to Siri. No, in fact, uh my wife quite notoriously swears up a blue streak at Ciri. But Ciri earns it. Yes. Siri deserves it. Uh has earned it. I think from last season of Curb Your Enthusiasm, there's a whole scene of Larry screaming at Siri in the car. Yes. I think we've we've all done a version of that. Well I've just joined TGP. I am Leo Laporte. I look forward to talking with you. I am I'm really impressed. I've always been impressed by your posts, by your writing, by your books. Uh someday I wouldn't mind going on a hike with you and Kevin. That would be pretty amazing. Um I thank you, Craig, for uh joining us on Intelligent Machines and giving us a nice humina humanistic angle on uh something that is kinda s kinda moving fast and changing the world and all that stuff. Well, thanks for having me. This has been fun. Thank you, Craig. Really nice to talk to you. Take care. Likewise. Thank you to uh Craig Maud for getting up early in uh Japan so, we could uh talk to him. We appreciate it. Uh, we will get to the rest of Intelligent Machines, all the uh news, including the shoemaker who's become the latest AI pivot. But first, a word from our sponsor, Intelligent Machines brought to you this week by Melissa, the trusted data quality expert since 198 5. 84 percent of organiz ations struggle with inaccurate or duplicate data, and that imp acts everything from fraud prevention to AI performance. Right? Garbage in, garbage out. Melissa has been solving this before the AI era for more than forty-one years. 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That was uh a uh AI generated voice that that guy named Miles To thought it was his voice, but it's not loud. And he uses that anthropological voice. And I get the joke now, but I thought it was his voice. It's very well written they're very supposed to be Richard Attenborough kind of why they call it Long Island City. It's definitely not long and it's definitely not a city. But it is an island file with granite cavity. I have no idea where that sound is coming from. I think it's playing inside the Discord, so you gotta look for the video that's playing in Discord. I have no idea what's coming out of that. Every time I switch over, designer tried to make a neighbor's Discord That's what we need to adjust . I couldn't hear him because Richard Attenborough was talking. How do I stop it? All right. Closing Discord. Sweet. That was exhausting. He's very good though, Miles Tow. I will I will you do how much time do you spend on TikTok every day? How much time am I in the bathroom? Ah, that's what it is. Wasn't there a warning from TikTok or Oh screw him? I don't pay It's that your legs can fall asleep if you're so long . I experienced this but with playing crossplay. But I haven't but I've been deficient on all my crossplay. Do I owe you a move or do you owe me a move? I think you owe me a move. Do I? Okay. I might owe you a move, actually. I owe everybody in my life a move. I've been off the last time. You were all into it and now you're not so much . Well, this last week I've been very busy, so I just haven't had time. I don't judge you. I don't judge you. I guess. If I need to file my taxes and figure out the Yonkers questions. Okay, now we got to talk about that because you mentioned this last year. Uh it today's tax day. I hope you all did your taxes. If you didn't, go rush over there, keep the podcast going while you're finishing it up. I did my mom's and mine today, got it all done. But in the New York tri-state area. When you're filling out your New York State tax return or having it filled out for you by a robot. You go through a series of questions in which it asks you in every way possible, did you live in Yonkers during this period? Did you work in Yonkers during this period? Did you think about thinking about working in Yonkers? Did you so much as glance And you did work in Yonkers, did you? And I did, in a sense, because the company I work for is a Yonkers based business. So I finally had to figure out what all that is about you actually had to say yes for the first time in history. Yes. And it's and I had to fill out another form. Do you get something out of that? I mean , I get more taxes out of that. There's a younger ? No . Not a tax break. There's a yon'ksers tax. There a Yonkers non-resident earning earnings tax . And there's a I paid New York City non-resident earnings tax, for example. Well, I did. I don't now. Doesn't seem right somehow. You gotta I don't think I know about Yonkers two oh three the Yonkers non residence earning tax return tax year twenty twenty four. So you're paying a lot more now. It's probably a buck more, right? It was like I think five hundred bucks was taken out of my paycheck for half the year. That's not nice. Uh that's where uh hello dolly comes from is Yonkers . Really? Yes. Yonkers. I don't know if sh they say that in the uh musical, but it's based on a play called I Can Get It For You Wholesale. It begs the question over why Yonkers though, like why does Yonkers get the money Like New York City, it has a tax. Yeah. We have that. We have special taxes in Petaloma for special special things. It's it's not unusual that like we have an additional sale Yeah , it's I something like that. Uh but it it anybody who and so I went through a whole thing 'cause I was like, well, technically the company I'm I work for is based Yonkers, but I work from home. I had to like calculate the number of days and I was like, Well, I technically only worked in Yonkers for five days, so it would be proportional, right? And no, it turns out there's a new thing in the tax law sometime in the last couple of years at least that um has uh said if you work remotely from home outside of yonkers but are working for a yonkers based company that's not working at yonkers. So Did you calculate how much additional tax that meant for you? I mean it's somewhere between zero and five hundred dollars. I'm sorry for all the audience. Really I think now answered that Yonkers question for all time. Yeah. You know, this is what you get for asking me about taxes on tax day. I want to hear. Do you like Yonkers? I do love, I mean Yonkers, the city I have neutral feelings about it. Is it good food there? Is there anything that Yonkers is known for? I haven't been outside of CR and the train station . Is Yonkers in New York State? Yes, you just take the metro north up to Yonkers and then it's the edge of Westchester County. No, it's in Westchester County. No, it's like just north of the northeast part of New York City property. Yes. The Bronx. Uh it's in the Bronx, Technically. No, it's above the Bronx. North of the Bronx. Yes, because that's how Dolly had to come down. Yeah. She took the streetcar. But yeah. Uh no we're not about to, but we will at some point talk about shoes. But I think before we do that, I think uh Paris has some apologizing to do to Sam Altman , who has now been firebombed and does that mean that reporting on him is bad. All because of that New Yorker article. That's incorrect. That's not why those things happened. Because the guy was nuts . Oh yeah, guns don't shoot peop don't shoot billionaires .ticles Ar written about billionaires by reporters shoot billionaires. But did you read Sam's blog a post about it where he has posted picture of his husband and their ch small child? We try to be pretty private, but I'm sharing a photo in the hopes that it might dissuade the next person from throwing a Molotov cocktail at our house, no matter what they think about me. And actually I'm very sympathetic. Yeah. We know you're very sympathetic, Leah. Not of Sam well Okay. You're I'm not I'm not gonna defend Sam . But um I guess this no Eric Swallwell. I mean he's you know he's he's he's a little slippery a little I don't think that anybody is arguing for violence. Right. But this the the larger story, and I'm being facetious, obviously I don't blame you for this. But uh the larger story is I do think it's And there could be violence. I mean, this might just be the beginning of you. Remember the Luddites , if they existed, because there's some question about whether they really existed, but the Luddites were reputedly Ned Ludd, the leader of the Luddites. They didn't automated looms that were putting it was destroyed the looms. It was not a protest against technology, it was a protest against the economic straights into which these people were put. Same for Captain Swing. It might be the same thing for AI. I mean people are concern cons ed about their jobs, right? But but I think what we need to kind of see whether they lose their jobs first. But now this is all presumptive at this point. And a lot of the people who've been laid off supposedly because of AI, it's an excuse. Or were some of them reacting to the thing? I do fear a little bit that that it is gonna get uh I mean there there's definitely this you know clash between the acceleration . I mean it's not also it's class war. Yeah. Um and really if Sam Altman were, you know, a billionaire, I don't know if the the same thing would happen. Nobody's Well, I don't know. People going after Jensen Wong or um Elon Musk details, I would imagine. They all do. I mean we we've seen stories about how much uh security is spent on Mark Zuckerberg. It's a fortune. Well and the people security is spent on Barry Weiss. The the the guy who threw the firebomb was immediately ID'd by his security team. I mean, he does have Sam does have security around his house, so it's that's why, you know, bounced off and it w didn't cause a problem. They put the fire out immediately. Um and the shots were not fired directly at him, they were fired around him, I guess. I don't know. It's scary. I think this is a little scary. Yeah, don't commit violence, people. Yeah. Uh open AI , though, has not made many friends. They are backing a bill now that would limit liability for AI-enabled mass deaths . This is an Illinois bill that would uh hold AI labs. Or financial disasters. Or financial disasters. Uh and of course as soon as OpenAI said we're ginnetting Anthropic had to say, oh no, no, that's a good idea . Because it isn't about the bill, it's about the rivalry uh between the two . Um what if it is about the bill also? Well, do you think really Dario thinks that he should be liable if uh well, this is a good example I mean, isn't that the whole thing, Anthropic the whole reason why Anthropic pulled out of the um Pentagon deal? And part of their fundamental necessarily liability. It was just that they don't want to be associated with you know surveillance of U.S. citizens and killing people without autonomously. And similarly, it's why they held back mythos. They don't want to be held responsible, I guess I guess. liability in that case might be real if companies like Microsoft suddenly are brought to their knees because of all the zero days that Mythos discovers. Now I have to heard some of the criticism of Mythos since our last podcast. I have and we can talk about uh some of it, but there's also some evidence that uh it is real. For instance, yesterday, Microsoft patched more flaws than it has ever patched before. Or second most flaws that's ever patched in its patch Tuesday. And I'm wondering this will be the test of Mythos. Remember it's only got f only fifty companies have it . The test of Mythos , which as you may remember from last week, Anthropic said we don't want to release this, it's dangerous, it's so good at finding security flaws. If we release this to the public, all of a sudden bad guys will attack everything and everything will collapse so we're going to give it to these fifty companies, primarily closed source companies, for them to clean up because they have the source code clean up their own flaws before we release mythos to the public. There's a a the criticism that you mentioned is one that it's very cleverly timed right before Anthropic's IPO . But the other point that a number of people have made, and I think this is actually true, is Mythos probably uses a lot of compute power and releasing it to the public would bring anthropics compute to its knees. It's already struggling. Claude Opus 4.6 is already struggling. It's been down several times. A lot of people are complaining about it. So it may even be just self-preservation, not about liability, not about danger, but just self-preservation. I think there are a lot of good reasons for uh We need a new animal besides the fail whale . Sorry? We need a new animal after the fail wh ale for the failed walrus. Yeah, something. So uh we talked about it with the Steve Gibson yesterday in security now. He's he's he says after looking at the evidence he feels pretty confident that this they're not overselling its capabiliti es. Um I think we will see, we will know because if any of those 50 companies, Microsoft's one of them, start releasing fixes fast and furiously for their software that that might indeed be an indication that they're finding stuff they didn't know about before. Uh there is also some what one of the funniest things is a number of American uh government agencies who have been told not to use anthropic by the president are desperately trying to get their hands on uh mythos. They want to try it too, and I don't blame them . They're saying, hey, we we would really like to see uh how this works on our stuff. The comment I read is that it's one matter to find a flaw, another matter to uh create an attack against it. One of the things that we know or we think Mythos has done, and there's there are some examples of very severe flaws that have been published by anthropic research ers very recently, and so there Steve thinks that's probably mythos found it, is they publish a proof of concept at the same time, which is a working sample of code that that Known about this for a long time. It isn't it isn't dangerous . Okay, but some of them are. There was a CV a ten, which is the maximum risk level, at least one of them. Um and then there's this uh from the uh uh the Brits. See if I can find uh this one . Our evaluation of Claude Mythos's preview's cyber capabilities from the AIur Secity Institute, which is part of the government . They had access to Mythos . Our results show Mythos Preview presents a step up over previous frontier models on a landscape where cyber performance is already rapidly improving. They have something, they do a capture the flag challenge . And they say in capture the flag challenges, AI models must identify and exploit weaknesses in target systems to retrieve hidden flags, in other words, proof that they were able to get in. And they have a graph of CTF performance and uh the mythos preview is dramatically better than even uh Opus four six or uh chat GPT five four, which are fairly close. Uh in the advanced CTF challenge it's even more significant . Um expert level tasks which no model could complete before April twenty twenty five. When's that? Oh that's now. Mythos previews again, no model could succeed, not one . Mythos previews succeeds 73% of the time . So it you know, it has the virtue of being very hypey for their IPO , but I don't think it's made up. Right. There's something there's there's there's a nuance here. There's there there. It's not binary. No, it's well, I think it's all three. It could be somewhat hyped. It could be somewhat uh I don't I don't I don't know if it's hyped. I think that we will put that in the right. That's it, there's not a lot of evidence that it's hyped, but the IPO is coming up, so it is good for marketing. It may be both could be true that it really is very, very good and it's good for marketing. And I think it's clearly true that anthropic is compute constrained. This is a big deal right now. That these m they are models coming along that they cannot actually publish because they don't have enough compute. But those are different issues, yes. Well, but they're all could be all simultaneously could be true, is my OpenAI supposedly has a model that's also dangerous that they're also not putting out, and they have a separate group of places that are taking it. The question I have for you and the qu it's a question which was by the way What a coincidence that a week later they would provide a version of ChatGPT 5.4 that is ChatGPT 54 cyber. So the person I want to talk to about this is our friend Craig Newmark, who cares deeply about cyber efforts. Wrong one, wrong one.. Sorry I yeah, I didn't know I didn't I didn't say moral panic. No. Sorry, our phone. I almost went for the song. I almost went for the song. He was gonna do the creating mark. No, no, that's enough. We don't need any more of that. We had one already. Oh now you gotta do a few . Now you have to do it just Sorry, what was your friend's name again, Jeff? Craig Newmark. Craig Craig Leo, you can't stop the train. No. So what I want to ask train shouldn't glass wing be something that's that's run by an independent uh trusted authority uh so that any model that can do this stuff should be presented to it and any company that needs to make sure that they're okay should have access to it for this purpose. It should be a larger cause, not just a club uh and in the case of anthropic, uh their banker is one of the companies that was given access to it, for example. So there is association and they're investors. So who gets who gets to be protected by these supposedly all-powerful models? Well, in a communist or socialist government, I think we would just take it over, but that's not capitalist society. They get to give it to whoever they damn want to. Capitalist government allows companies to do whatever they want with their products? Yeah. Really? Well, not anthropic. But every other company . I think it's ironic that these government agencies are trying to say, can we have it? Can we have it? Um, you know, but Donald's moved on to something else. He th he's not paying any attention anymore anyway. I don't know what Pete we haven't seen Pete for a while. I don't know what Pete's up to these days. Uh Open AI. Oh, that war thing, yeah, maybe. Open AI rips anthropic, distances itself from Microsoft. I think honestly, Open AI is in a little bit of a tizzy right now. Yes. They also have an IPO coming up. It's really interesting. OpenAI is valued at something like one and a half trillion dollars because of their huge raise. Anthropic's only valued at about $300 billion. And yet if you look at the curve of enterprise spending, anthropics going like this as open AI goes down, anthropic's going up and AI so you know, I don't I want I wouldn't declare the race over by any means. No. But the but the dark horse is starting to pull ahead. And there's uh that must not forget there's also Google and the and Amazon's hanging out there too doing stuff and has chips and things. Uh when when I I sent you the Dylan Byers pod cast about the TBPM acquisition. So this is from Puck, which is a wonderful uh and snarky and very insidery uh subscription uh newsletter and podcast and Dylan is one of the one of the founders but also is very insider on all of this stuff. And so he interviewed Chris Lahane. Lahane, yeah. Who is the former fixer who kept saying again and again and again, bragging about their largest uh raise, the largest raise in history or something such like twenty two billion. Dylan Byers and Chris Lahane interviews the two biggest braggers you've ever met. Yes. Convention center. That's why I did not listen. I guess I might have to it was interesting to listen to mainly to hear uh sorry, different topic, but mainly to hear that there's no strategy for that purchase for that huge amount of money purchase is none. I think actually the wheels are coming off OpenAI, to be honest. It sure looks like that. Were they ever there to begin with? Oh yeah. They they how quickly we forgot away. They owned this space. They started with ChatGPT two, which incidentally, and not coincidentally, they said is too dangerous to be released to the public. Once we got it, we realized there's no danger here. But Chat 3PT GPT 3. 5 transformed people's opinion of AI. I have we already forgotten that three years ago. People said, oh my God, this stuff's pretty good. And then 4.0 and 4, and th it's only been lately the Anthropic has suddenly you know, popped up. And where and where's Google in all of this? The you know it's a it's a very interesting three horse race at this point. You guys know anybody who used Gemini as their primary AI? Yeah. Who? I use it a lot. Your primary? Well what's primary? I use it for when I primary is primary. It's more so than the others I go into it more than the others. Yes. Larry Gold was uh showed us anti-gravity, which is their IDE for AI, and I think maybe Larry's using it a little bit. Most peop I think most coders have shifted to Claude. Well, Jeff, why do you use Gem ini over the other ones? Well, there's an irony to that question, Paris , because Jeff is and remains absolutely effing enraged that I do not have the simple ask um Gemini uh button on my Google Chromebook Google Workspace uh Google Chrome browser. So I'm not sure why I do because I'm so pissed at them. I I think chat GPT still is by far the most used chat client. A billion monthly active users. Gemini, by virtue of being built into Chrome, is probably very, very widely uh used. One of the things uh Google's getting a lot of attention for is this uh new tech new ish , because it they've been actually talking about it for a year, technology that squeezes these models down to a very compact size without losing much accuracy. And their GEMA model, which they've released, uh is very small, can run locally on machines, is uh among other things, can run locally on a Mac quite well, even with only 32 gigs of RAM. So I think there are people using I've, you know, I immediately installed it. It it's it's no clawed. This is the problem is Opus is so good. By the way, uh it may even be today or tomorrow that Opus email to my accountant uh apologizing for sending my taxes late and then an email to my accountant saying I understand that because I've sent my taxes late you can't file them to the 20th, but I have gone ahead and filed my taxes anyway. I'll see you next year. But other than that, that was my only tax. I used free tax USA. It's free. It was fifteen dollars for state taxes, but that's cheaper than this name is not right, is it? Turbo tax. Well the US. I paid $260 to pay. That's more than my accountant costs. That was outrageous. That's to do my mom's. Did you uh So this is what OpenAI says questions well? Well, I was the the Yonkers questions were so annoying that I was gonna uh tap Arthur, but I I mostly figured I figured it out eventually. Arthur the Accountant? Arthur the Accountant. Darren Oakie, by the way, says Gemophore is awesome. I think a lot of people who are uh really uh aficionados often use multiple models for different things. Um I use a Chinese model to process my my me al log . You know, because it's cheap and it's fast and it's good enough. So you you might use Gemma for some stuff locally and so forth. Gemma is a failback. Anyway, this is what OpenAI said about tax day. With tax day approaching, more and more Americans are using ChatGPT to navigate questions about their taxes and filings. Tax related queries have increased four times from Q one twenty twenty five to Q one twenty twenty six. Earnings withholdings, blah blah blah blah blah. But then look look at the bottom part of the very tiniest font of the very tiniest bit of this ex post, chat GB Aaron Powell Just to piss off your professional advisor for asking stupid questions because of ChatGPT. And frankly, uh don't forget if you feed your tax form to ChatGPT, you're giving it your t your social security. What a nightmare. Don't if you do redact it first . Um Yeah, so uh To get back to the original question, uh and Darren said it's not a three-horse race, don't forget Alibaba and Baidu. And of course, yeah, there's the Chinese three-horse race means there's three horses in the kind of the front, and then there's a bunch of people right behind them, which are the Chinese models. I've been using uh Jeep 's GLM five one. It's very it's almost as good as Opus four six. But I'm very curious what happens when the anthropic releases four seven, which your uh former employer, the an information, uh Stephanie Palazzolo says will be soon, maybe as soon as this week . By the way, when news of four seven came along because uh at the same time they're expected to release an AI-powered tool for designing websites and presentations, according to a person with knowledge of the project, the product. Uh stock prices of Adobe, Wix, and Figma dropped two percent in after-hours trading following the report. Uh, people are terrified. If, you know, and you know what, Paris, this will be maybe the first test of uh secretly The tool would also pose a threat to startups like Presentation Maker Gamma and AI design tool Google Stitch . It aims to help both technical and non-technical users create presentations , websites, landing pages, and products using prompts in natural language. That's fine. That's all stuff people don't want to do anyway, right? Right. How when when you get a uh a dot and release of a model, how much are they changing it? They're not retraining it, right? Yeah, that's probably what that means, right? So Opus IV is the big training thing where you have to th throw a lot of data, the entire internet against a bunch of GPUs and you get the model, but then you gotta do the weights, right? You have to you have to m uh d you know f uh train it uh do a lot of fitting. There's there's research. There's what do they call uh reinforcement learning. There's a lot of stuff that's still going on. Actually, that's a hot uh area for hiring right now, is is people to help post-train these models. So my guess is yeah, it's it's additional post-training. And maybe tuning to do maybe something a little different like design or cyber security. Uh you may remember we were talking about Pete Heggseth, Department of War, and uh them declaring that anthropic was a supply chain risk, which seemed a little odd because usually that's a foreign power , uh not an American company that's declared a supply chain risk. Uh Anthropics went to court and a federal court has denied their motion to lift that label , which is a bit of a surprise. Panel of federal judges denied a motion to stop the Department of Defense from labeling it a security risk. Appeals for the District of Columbia said Anthropic had not satisfied the stringent requirements for a stay of the security risk label. This is from the New York Times. In our view, the equitable balance here cuts in favor of the government. Now this is not a final decision. This is just the court saying we're not gonna s we're not gonna issue a preliminary injunction. But of a surprise to me. I I would have thought, given that the the dangers to this business , that the court might have said, well, let's wait and and and pursue this in court before we get one of that. I've always got to look at that. court for District of Columbia, but it it's a three panel uh th three judge panel and I think they're interpreting it very legalistically, like well there are certain requirements if you want us to stay this and you haven't fulfilled them is different than saying there's no merit In the ruling the panel did acknowledge anthropic would likely, quote, likely suffer some degree of irreparable harm. So they weren't they were they were cognizant of the risk to anthropic from this. They weren't sloughing it off. Yeah. And I wouldn't go so far as uh Todd Blanche, the uh acting attorney Galener, saying it was a res ounding victory for military readiness. I think it's just the court saying, well, we're gonna be more judicious in the in this . Judge Lynn said she agreed Anthropic was being punished for criticizing the government. She wrote, Nothing in the governing statute supports the Orwellian notion that Amer an American company can be branded a potential adversary and saboteur of the U.S. So now you have conflicting judgments. And I don't know which holds there will be a trial. But Anthropic may have God on its side . God ? God. Do you want to explain that? Does that exist? Anthropic? Anthropic asked Christian leaders for help in steering its spiritual development. Oh, come on. This is for the hospital . The wide ranging discussions with uh fifteen Christian leaders from Catholic and Protestant churches also covered how the chatbot should respond to users who are grieving loved ones. I think actually that's reasonable. Like how should we handle that? And whether Claude should be considered now this one I don't know about so much. A child of God. Yeah, this is going overboard. Is can i an AI is not in any form or fashion. Could it be considered a c a claude of God? A child of ca of Claude? Well, I guess you could say I, mean, uh uh you know, unfortunately I I'm as a non believer, I'm not really I don't really have this the status to weigh in on this, but I suppose if if God created everything, everything's a child of God. Well if it's a child of God, including does it have a soul then? Does that mean it pure soul s? Well I don't think it's some doctrinal ity. Does cloud maybe child of God has some larger doctrinal. I like baptizing clauded shorts out. A Catholic priest based in Silicon Valley, Brendan Maguire, said they're growing something that don't they don't fully know what it's gonna turn out as. We've got to build ethical thinking into the machine. I don't why I'm giving it an Irish action. His name's Brandon McGuire. We've got to build ethical thinking into the machine so it's able to adapt dynamically. Engage with risks with users with risks of self-harm. You did see uh some researchers talking to chat GPT, they said I'm uh they created an imaginary 13-year-old girl uh going to it for help and it was giving her advice on how to self harm . But this is to me this is not surprising. These these machines are not Google. You can go to you go to the They're just regurgitating what's in there. No, but a book isn't gonna tell you to do that stuff. No. It's what you say. But but the point is you can find this information in the lunchroom, you can find it in lots of places. Right. Yeah, so why do we have to add another place to find it? Fair. Fair. Especially since uh young people, uh vulnerable people may turn to chat GPT as Give a library, right? Ideals. No, it wouldn't. But the question is, can you as ever, can you anticipate and stop every possible mal ign of the U.S. It is a potential harm though with these things. Maybe should you limit AI to uh people over eighteen? No. God. That would be a mistake, wouldn't it? Yes . Anthropic feeling the uh compute crunch Oh well okay I'll do one more story then we'll take a break. Anthropic feeling the compute crunch has now changed its billing . It's long been thought your friend Ed Zitrin has been thinking this for a long time that the subscriptions I have one, a Claude Max subscription, subsidize really many users that they use it so much they're not really paying the real cost of the AI. And this might confirm it. Anthropic is saying, yeah, from now on, enterprises you can't use those you know, all you can eat subscriptions . You can uh you're gonna have to pay by the token. And I think this is this is clearly uh the result of this computer. It's fascinating. It's like the opposite of mobile games where the whales pay for the people who don't play that much. This one the people who don't use it that much are paying for the people who do use it that much. This is the gym members hip model, right? Yeah. This is the planet fitness model. Right. Fifteen bucks a month because they know you're never coming back. Uh but most you know, most people don't use it to the f full extent. I think it's different with Claude. I think it's I think people use Claude Code are just using it and using it and using it. Yeah, and they're worried because those people are getting so much Claude code for just twenty bucks a month or a hundred bucks a month when they really should be paying by the token. No well those people are on the uh Claude Nomics leaderboard at Meta. Right. The good news is individual users still can subscribe. It's just the uh enterprises that are gonna have to pay by token, pay the probably the appropriate amount uh for usage. Uh which it just really does tell you that uh like well I have a couple of conclusion I'll draw from this in just a second. You're watching intelligent mach ines, talking about AI. Uh I always say robotics. There's not a lot to talk about in robot robot robotics, but I'll try to find something. And um and uh your geni al hosts, Paris Martineau from Consumer Reports and uh from Montclair State University and the SUNY Stony Brook, State University of New York at Stonybrook, Professor Jeff Jarvis, author of, and I haven't mentioned this, the Gutenberg Parenthesis magazine, his new book, Hot Type, all about the history of the Linotype , uh, which is out in July. You can order it now at Jeff Jarvis dot com. The magnificent machine that gave birth to mass media and drove Mark Twain mad. It's a great, it's actually a great fascinating story. It really is a good story. Um I just think that uh one of the things that this confirms to me is the bitter lesson, you know, that that really it's just about more compute, you know, and that all the companies that were building data centers and everybody said, Oh, you're not going to need those. No, they're going to need 'em. Uh and uh yes. All of us Absolutely Yes . The more the merrier. We have to be able to get none of us get to buy computers anymore, right? So that n that means no, but I wanna buy a computer and wanna buy a chip for my things . Can't I have a chip too? Do they need all the th under? You might pay a little bit more. You can buy a computer , you mean a hundred dollars . You mean two to computer? Go buy a MacBook Neo. It's Neo, it's six hundred bucks that's not enough computer for it's plenty of computer. I guarantee you. It's not. I need more. I can't help you then. No, you can buy a chip for your thing. It just costs a little bit more, and I think there are a lot of reasons for that. A double it's more than a little bit more. No, the yeah, the one, it's not a little bit more, and there are not plenty of reasons for that besides AI . AI and the data center boom and the chip crisis for AI companies specifically are what is causing this huge spike we're seeing chip. Wham wan wan. Too bad we're gonna do it anyway. Well, if you have a Neo you can use Claude all you want. You don't know. I don't need you to gang up on me with Paris. We got enough people gang up Uh thro and as long as I got you mad at me, I'll get uh Jeff mad at me too. It also throws shade on Jan Lacoon's contention that oh LLMs can't go any farther, we can't do any more with them, we've got to have some sort of physical world. No, I think we're s we're seeing L LMs have not yet reached their limit. He he he doesn't say we're there yet. He says but there is a limit and we're not going to get to all the the fancy goals everybody thinks they have through them because it's not you can't it's not text-based. There's knowledge beyond text in real world models. You can't um tokenize the entire world. You've got to think about the world differently to do that. You've got to understand the concept of a chair and the concept of of d gravity uh in in practice. Uh and if you want to do things like robotics and and self-driving cars, it ain't gonna be text that gets you there. Well uh sh I certainly don't have the expertise or the degrees that Yan Lakoon and Fay Fe Lee have, and so I have to defer to their expertise. But there's no evidence at this point that LLMs have topped out at all . Well uh to Paris's point, how much are we going to have to spend to find out where that limit is? Because we just just just build it bigger and it will come. It's the it's the um what was that Well why stop now when we have yet to see the limit of possible but I am saying that you do some math and figure out what what the progression really is and is it worth the huge investment that we're making. I think that's very reasonable. I don't think that we should. How do you judge that? How would you judge it? If you were an investor, if there weren't in craziness now, any any responsible investor would ask these questions. And it would be on the burden of the people asking for all this money to prove that. Yeah. Yeah. It's an investment . And now the investment's being done on the basis of Vibes. Vibes. Vibes and hope and FOMO and It's the vibe bubble. I think you guys are completely wrong, but okay. I've expressed that opinion before. I think it's really obvious that we have something remarkable going on. It's economics. We do have Is it remarkable all the money? Meta has been warned by dozens of organizations that facial recognition on his smart glasses would empower predators . It's interesting that Meta's been putting out these glasses for several years, and now all of a sudden people are very worried about them . One of the things, though, they don't do, and one of the things Google issued as well, is facial recognition. Google said yeah, it'd be too dangerous. We could do it. This was back in the glass days. Mm-hmm. But we don't want to. Dozens of civil this is from Engadget, dozens of civil rights organizations have written a letter to Mark Zuckerberg to warn of the dangers of bringing facial recognition to the glasses. Zuck wants to do it. And there's certainly value. I believe there was an internal memo from Zuck or some other high level Facebook executive saying now is the time to push facial recognition in the glasses because the rest of the US is distracted by the current global political nodes. Do it now before anybody notices. And it's like if you have to try and time your push of expanding facial recognition, uh if you if you have to time your push of a very heavily criticized product to political turmoil, that's a bad sign. I like that Epstein and War give you cover. I think that it was maybe the statement was made during uh the Minnesota ICE uh arrests and protests. But it was, you know, one of the things that we just Meta just cannot stop putting its foot in its mouth, can it? It's just really amazing. Uh yeah. W Wellell but the soon we'll have a virtual mark we can go now . People said the same thing about Apple's air tags, by the way, and that hasn't been fully resolved. This whole notion that somebody could use it to track you. I mean people are using it to track like their significant others or people they're stalking. Yeah. That's part of the reason why Apple is now come up with features where it'll warn you if an air tag you're not associated with is track following you. Zuckerberg is appar apparently, this is uh according to the verge, building an AI clone so he doesn't have to go to meetings. The AI version of Zuck is trained on his mannerisms, tone, and public statements. This is from a report from the Financial Times . Uh it's not that he doesn't want to go to meetings, he just can't go to as many meetings as he needs to, so he wants the clone to go to some of them. Well, it's also because in line 69, he has moved his desk to sit with the programmer so that he can code. It's much more fun over there. But do you really want your CEO? I mean, it's like it's the like the president of GM is putting tires on. Really ? Well that's why you know that's why it it's often was thought that Cheryl Sandberg was so important to Facebook's success that she was the adult supervision that Mark got to play but while Cheryl actually ran the company. I don't know who's running the company now. Do you? No, in fact there was re reference to I think of president of the company. I'd never heard of uh so Dina Powell McCormick is the president and vice chairman of Meta. Do we ever hear from her? Ever? Hmm. I feel like she was in the Obama administ ration. She was an executive at Goldman Sachs and a national Trump security United States Deputy National Security Advisor for Strategy, the DJT . And by the way, she's an immigrant from uh Egypt . Um she was a assistant uh to the president for presidential personnel during the Bush administration, then Assistant Secretary of State for Educational and Cultural Affairs. This is a trend actually at Meta, right, Nick Clegg. They like people who have a government uh inside uh because She was uh in the first Trump administration . Part of the transition team in twenty sixteen. Left in twenty eighteen to go to Goldman. The meta executives, they do look like a happy lot. Do you think she's the she's the person running the company at this point? I no. Chris Cox is a critical position. I would imagine Chris Cox, who has been with Zuckerberg since the beginning, probably has Understands how to manage. Somebody's somebody's COO. Somebody's really running the place. Well, Javier Olivon is the COO. Never heard of him. Yeah. Joel Kaplan is the chief PR we know of him, very close to Trump . Anyway, Boz. I think Mark is probably in the same boat right now as Larry Page and Sergey Brynn were in after about ten, fifteen years of Google, where they're so wealthy. Well when did they step down? How far into they step down? Yeah, th I think that was a good move when they gave it Schmidt uh and he was the adult supervision. They even said it themselves . I'm not sure when his tenure at Google started. Let me uh let me ask Google. Google would know . Uh he was uh CEO of Google from two thousand one to twenty eleven, so very early on they brought him in. Executive chairman from twenty eleven to twenty fifteen. But he really ran the company for ten years in its biggest period of growth. Schmidt now is worth fifty-four billion dollars. Jesus . Speaking of uh Google, Chrome has added a new uh plug-in that lets you take your AI prompts and turn them into one click workflows, uh it's an extend. What? You know you don't like I can't use it because in my Google Chrome book, using Google Chrome, trying to use Google um prompts . I don't have the Ask uh Gem Gemini uh button in my browser on my Chromebook. You don't? God, I wish I could get rid of it. I have it all. I want it. I said my in other applications, I don't have it there, so I can't even experiment with that. Seriously people, if there's anybody near you have a cousin in Google, I want to talk to somebody. This is ridiculous. I don't know what's going on. I think w wait a minute. When I'm in Chrome, let me see. I'm gonna go to Chrome. I'm in Workspace and a Chromebook. Those are the two key factors. Well it's the workspace on the Chromebook. Because we go outside of Workspace on the Chr omebook, I think I get it. I think last time I looked. Let me go to drive in uh my my workspace account. I think I see that that sparkly little Gemini. Yeah, you do, but I don't. It's just because you're on a Chrome. Yeah, because he's in Chromebook. Yeah, I see AI mode. No, because Chromebook is a good one. Do you want to be in Chromebook, Jill? Do you like the Chromebook lifestyle? Do you not want to have a normal computer with Chrome on I no, I would far prefer this. I don't want to deal with all the crap you deal with . It's very simple life. It's kind of the shaker of computers. Couldn't you just give a normal computer and only open the Chrome app? Then I gotta deal with all that other Apple crap. No, I don't want to deal with that. No, no, no. You don't get an Apple computer. You can just get a normal window. What windows? Oh Windows? Oh god, help me. No. It's funny because there's so many people now listen maybe not listening, it is after all an AI crowd, but there's so many people in the world who would love to not have AI in their browser and there are number of browsers. In fact, uh there's a D Googled uh Chrome that very popular called Helium that says no AI. Even Firefox has a button that says turn off all AI. And here's this man, Jeff Jarvis, who wants an AI button. Yeah, I do. I can't get it. I do, and I can't get it. You gotta give Google buddy, Leo. And I pay Google every month for this torture . But why don't you go ahead, Leo, and tell people what everybody else in the world can do and I can't. No, I'm I'm done. I don't want to make you feel bad. Oh, wait a minute. Adobe's new Firefly AI assistant turns creative cloud into a single conversational interface. You know who wants this? Uh I don't know. What does that mean? No, we don't we use Google Drive for our cloud storage. But no no this is Photoshop, Premiere, Lightroom, Illustrator, Ex press, Frame I.O. so that you can say to your Adobe Creative Suite, hey, take that photo, put a Gaussian blur on the background in Photoshop, then set it to Premier and make it the keyframe for I'd have I would have had that done myself by now before you finish that sentence. Yeah, but once you say it, then it'll do maybe you could I don't know. It maintains context across sessions, so it remembers what you want to do. It also uh works with a firef ly image model. Of course, this is Adobe's special AI image generator that didn't steal any images. We s cross our heart . Um there's a lot of competition coming straight at Adobe from everybody, including Apple, and including now uh Black Magic, which added Photoshop like capabilities to its Da Vinci Resolve photo editor. Gizmo Giz Oh she looks so sick. Giz can you fought Giz did you knock the uh the Giga off a table somewhere? She did, I'm certain. No, she doesn't really eat things . She's started to learn that uh she can knock things off my desk specifically if she wants me to. She understands gravity. Yeah. She doesn't really knock things off other locations, but she started to learn if I'm stuck here working for a while, she can start knocking my papers off and I will touch her as a response . Yeah, if you need to be in a safe space where people will coddle your emotions, then yeah, you could go. We will glaze our AIs. It's a crispy cream factory, guys. All right, I will give you this . I'll give you two pieces from Gary Marcus. Will that make you happy? We've had Gary on the show. I need to uh close my blinds because my face is getting blown up by the beautiful Eighty eight degree New York afternoon. I can do that while you talk about Gary Marcus. Hello. We just heard back we might be able to get the frame work CEO . Okay, yes, get the framework CEO. We would like to talk to him, Anthony. Thank you. Uh did you you do that already? Did you already close the blinds? No, I was just putting my headphones in so that I can still hear you. Oh, so we can't talk about you which she didn't want us to talk about her when she was out of sight. You know I don't know what to say. I don't have any good goss. What's the goss? She doesn't she works in Yonkers, I hear. Aww Breadpp puet. Bread what is bread and puppet? It's a really good uh puppet theater in Vermont that's also plugged in. Oh yeah, you mentioned them. Yeah, and they make uh cabbage. They do make cabbage and they've got cool art. It's very pretty. It's a uh it looks like a wood block print. It's very nice. Maybe all right. She's gonna readjust now her headphones. Now that the blinds are drawn, we must stop talking about her. I hear she lives in Yonkers . She should be paying more taxes then . She thinks she's cool living in Brooklyn, but actually that's Yonkers we see. Is it is Yonkers pretty? It has a terrible name, but it's Dutch. It's Dutch. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, now we can't hear you. Oh. I'm sorry for any Yonkers stands up there. I haven't explored Yonkers long enough. Maybe there are parts of it I'm missing. It's just a stop on the Metro North. It's just another There's nothing crazy going on. Just a little Westchester County, that's all. It's a Paul Silas. Well you see but Yonkers I'm gonna stay here for a second. Because Yonkers was granted to uh one of my favorite characters in the history of New York, Edrian Vonderdonck, who brought the sense of freedom of speech and democracy to the fledgling New York from Amsterdam. In Russell Shortho's wonderful book, uh Island at the Center of the World. Love that book. Adrian Voderdok is a wonderful, wonderful character. And he was known locally as a Yonkier J O N K H W E R a Young Gentleman. Oh orific title derived from the Dutch Yonk for young and here for Lord. The title is similar to Esquire . Is linguistically comparable to the German Junker. Yonker was shortened to Yonker, possessive Yonkers, from which the name Yonkers derives. The cities up. What are the cities residents known as? Paris? Is this on the quiz ? I'm looking at it right now, otherwise I'd try to guess. Yonker sites, yonkers or Leo, do you want to guess what the population of yonkers is as one point two million. Yonkers? Yeah. No. 53,000. And eleven thousand. Oh, okay. So Petaluma is sixty-five thousand, so for for comparison now I know. It's bigger city than Petaluma, but smaller than the Bronx. Von der Doc built a sawmill, thus the sawmill parkway . That is a very good book though. I really enjoyed that if you want to hear it. Have we ever talked shoes ? Oh shoes, shoes. We forgot the shoes. It was actually I we didn't there somewhere. Well it's uh see but you you put it at the top of the list. So we think that under your rules we would have been. Uh you know, schedule decided by Mr. Claude. I believe it's at line 53, and we are only at line 50. So how dare we speak to the city? If you wish to jump ahead, though. So I am I am wearing All Birds right now, just totally coincidentally. I love Allbirds. These are great shoes. Highly recommended. They look AI generated, which is funny given what we're about to talk about. They are so comfortable. I've owned many pairs of all birds. Um these are made out of bamboo, I think, but I most of them are wool. They're they're famous for the biggest. Now that you can't get them, if you want a competitor , Geese . G-I-E-S-S-W-E-I-S let's point out the Alberts got sold, so presumably the the shoe business will continue on. They sold uh No, I don't know that that's the case. No, give me shoe business was a horrible failure. Well they sold for thirty nine million dollars to the American Exchange. So announced a four billion dollar valuation as a shoe company. Okay, but that was on the first day of the channel. They're gonna be offering GPUs as a service. Wait a minute. So they're they're they're their elearven-ye-old shoe brand , uh uh the wool sneaker brand that according to TechCrunch became an unofficial uniform for the Silicon Valley set , sold all of its assets and intellectual property to American Exchange Group, one tenth of what it was worth at its heyday. But why would they spend thirty-nine million if they weren't going to make the shoes in the U.S. Less than a tenth? It's more like a hundredth. Well, they never really were worth four billion . But anyway. Well it was a failure. It was it had failed as a company. Do you think I can't buy any all maybe they're having a close out sale? I'm looking now, I don't see that yet. I would love to stock up. Crazy Park is a fan of all birds. One of the mistakes they made was opening stores, physical res re uh retail stores. And then they sold other things, leggings, jackets, running shoes, and socks. All we really ever wanted was wool slip-ons . I have four one, two, three, four, four pairs, and I love them . Uh American Exchange Group is a privately held 18-year-old brand management firm. Oh, you know what they're gonna do? They're gonna start making all birds hamburgers at Wonder. And then anyway, they also own Arrow Souls and Jonathan Adler. So maybe they'll still make shoes. But anyway, they took the 39 million and they sank it into something of real value. AI data centers. Yes . Got 'em. Pivoting to New bird AI is the new name, a fully integrated GPU as a service and AI native cloud solutions provider. They got a $50 million invest ment from some from an un undisclosed institutional investor . So they got the m they got some money . Um okay . That's that's more than their stock is popping on this pivot. Oh yeah, they they s didn't sold it. So all the round but tons. Yeah, they've almost they've gone up 582% . If you if we allow ourselves to take a trip back in memory lane to the year, what was it, 2018, 2019 , when suddenly everybody was re-uh nam ing their apps and companies to be the block chain or cryptocentric. Like the Long Island Ice Tea Company. Exactly. I was gonna say Long Island Ice Tea what was it the Long Island blockchain company? Uh that is wild . So it seems, I don't know, Leo, do you think it's a good sign that now companies, much like in the uh blockchain heyday, right before the bubble pop are now just pitching to add AI as a last-dash effort to grab any sort of market value before they implode ? Well, I should say uh upfront that because I covered this field Field. I do not uh buy stock uh in uh in any of these companies. Um I only bought I I wouldn't have bought the stock in Albert's no matter what. Well, or or any data center companies. Although probably because I own, you know , index funds. Oh yeah. I probably have money in some of these companies, but I don't know I don't pay attention to what uh and it's not so much of a you you will soon have shares of audacity and open Yeah, probably right. Yeah. Well, actually I won't because Due to this thing of war in Iran, the Straits of Hormuz being blocked, the price of oil going through the roof. I anticipated a global recession and stock market crash. Boy was I wrong. Yeah. So I uh I took all the money in my retirement account and sold it and it's in cash right now 'cause I thought well I can't afford to make it up if I you know this is this is all I got . I would have a lot more if I hadn't done that. That was a really stupid thing to do. Don't follow Uncle Leo's advice. I've avoided it in the past. I've I've just written it out, but I just thought, well, I'm too old now to make up for a big crash. And I really th I truly don't understand why the market has not crashed. I don't get it. Hey, it can always get worse. It can indeed. Well, I'm not rooting for it to get worse, but it is kind of depress The market our economy wants to be in good shape instead of all of the marbles thrown in its path. Well, and that's what was always my logic was I believe in this country and I believe in our economy, and I think no matter what uh down turns there are that we'll always come back and come back better . And I was right. Well well you also did it thinking you had time, but you and I don't have as much time. Right. I'm almost seventy. At this point, uh I shouldn't really plan on any. You you by the way, I should thank you. I thought we should all get matching tattoos. I know. Oh yeah. And actually now's the time to get it, Paris, because I've already sagged . I know. There's no more sagging. It's gonna look as great though. I'm sagged . I'm down 30 pounds. I'm sagged. Wow. Do you think you gain it back, Jeff? When you recover? No, you look great. You look like a tender young thing . I just buy big shirts, so you can't tell. This is the Moo Moo shirt. All right, Gary Marcus. You do Gary Marcus. He says even more good news for the future of neurosymbolic AI. This is another argument that LLMs and here is a picture of the Tower of Hanoi , and he said, You you know, they have trouble with the Tower of Hanoi. Uh uh So uh he says uh in fact symbolic AI and I don't disagree with him. This is actually something that we uh talked about when we had um Stephen Wolfram on. He's he's a big, you know, actually Wolfram is basically Wolfram Alpha is basically symbolic AI. Symbolic AI is the old AI was rule sets, expert systems. Remember that term expert systems? So you'd you'd teach it everything to know and then it could make decisions versus an LLM, which whoever thought this would work, you just dump everything into it and it kind of gives everything weights and says, Okay, now I can I can talk . And it still seems like magic to me. Uh, but apparently uh this hybrid model of neural networks, which is what an LLM is for pattern recognition, and a symbolic pattern uh sorry, symbolic planner is actually much better at uh generalizing things like the Tower of Hanoi. And this comes from a Apple paper, a reasoning paper. This is VLA's Vision Language Action Models , a newer kind of LLM. Popular in robotics, although apparently they had the same problem with the Tower of Hano i . Okay . But they do have some advantages. On the three block, which is the trivialist version of the Tower of Hanoi, the neurosymbolic model achieved ninety five percent success compared to thirty four percent for the best performing VLA. You know, I think you kind of can cherry pick a test. Say, well, it can't do the Tower of Hano i. Can't fold close. Yeah, but okay . Um here's a so Gary who is not apparently afraid to use AI for his blog has a nice AI graphic here . Even Grok knows that neurosymbolic hybrid power is the future But it's the same point. Same idea that it's we have to go beyond transformers to something. Maybe a little more traditional. I think some of the reason people turn their back on symbolic AI is those AI winners, where people said, look , we've tried expert systems and they just they don't pan out. Wasn't it like the old semantic web argument, right? Yeah, exactly. And I think it purely empirically, it does look like LLMs have gotten a lot farther, a lot faster than than uh expert systems ever did. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis, Paris, Smart No, we're so glad you're here, especially you Club Twit members. Thank you. Thank you for your support. We really appreciate it. I know we don't deserve it, but we really appreciate it. Anything you want to do to help keep us on the air, we much appreciate twit.tv slash club twit for ad-free versions of all our shows, access to the club twit discord and all those special programs that we uh do just for you. You were asking this, Jeff, and I don't know. Did you get an answer if anybody had seen the Audacity? I watched it. Did either of you? No. It's on uh AMC. It is a new uh Silicon Valley kind of show, yeah? Parody. Is it good? Well, I was hoping for Silicon Valley Redux . Which is brilliant. Which is brilliant. This is this is dark. The reviews basically say fine target, but why do they all have to be so incredibly unlikable? The plot the first the first show is 90 minutes . It features the guy you see in the picture you showed is Green who's in trouble because he uh and he's gonna do insider trading and all kinds of stuff and then he's gotta shrink, um, witness um what was that show? What was the gr the great show um uh with the shrink and the and the VCs? Uh anyway. No idea. Yeah I know the one with the shrink and the mafia. No no no no no analyze this. The shrink and the venture . Oh, you mean the one where they're in the mountains? The mountain top? No, no, no, no, no. Um not succession. It was on the same time as succession. It was the other one we watched. Billions, thank you. Billions. So it's kind of a takeoff on that in a sense. So the shrink I didn't like billions actually. I uh I I liked it at first, but uh it really went after one. Trillions. Um trillions. That's that's the show we're waiting for. You know what's better than billions? Trillions. Trillions. So there's all kinds of other characters in it. There's the the shrink son who can listen in on the therapy sessions. That's going to be critical. It's just a bunch of very unlikable people. Which may mean succession was full of you may really like it. Succession was full of unlikable people, right? I will watch it tonight. Um I like some of the people in it . Um is there can you play the trailer or you can take it down? I can't. No. Uh I am sad that it has Zach Lafanakis in it. Because I like him and, if it's not a great show, I'll be disappointed. I think he's very talented. But yeah, I will tell you a terrible show with Keanu Reeves and uh Jonah Hill on uh Apple TV comeback. It's not about Silicon Valley. It's just about a well, in a way, it's kind of about technology because it's about a movie star who's taken five years off, but he's a beloved movie star. Turns out no one knew it, but he took five years off to conquer his heroin addiction. And his team tells him there's a video. And he goes, Oh no, what? A video? Yes, there's a video. And so he gets a crisis team uh of horrible people and he's going around, he keeps looking at Google, looking up his name and saying is seeing if there's any videos and it says nothing but good things about him. Finally they get the video and it's it's it's a terrible movie. It had it ends with a whimper. It begins with a whimper and ends with a whimper. But I will watch the audacity. The Broligarky takedown you were waiting for says what the drama . No, that's the new one? Mm-hmm . Is that the one that takes the pla that of jury duty uh successors? No. No. It is the retreat And uh Robert Pattison movie with um it's another movie by uh that director, what's his name is Christopher O offfferer Borgley I have this issue with every single one of his films where the premises are like the premise is fascinating. Everything I read about it, I'm like, dang, I really want to see that movie. But they are the sort of movies that make you crawl out of your skin with how uncomfortable every single thing about the setup payoff and the actions of all the characters are. So I can't I watch movies to be interesting. I mean everybody I know who likes those sort of movies has loved this movie. So okay. Um I thought you might be interested in Coachella. Are you uh are you a Gen Xer, Gen Z or Gen Yer, Gen Alpha? I know can I you're a Z? Are you a Z Z Millennial Cusp. Do your people go to Coachella ? I don't know anybody who's there. I feel like Coachella's mostly influencers. That's exactly the story from the verge. AI influencers are everywhere. AI influencers are everywhere at Coachella. That is an AI gener ated picture of Granny from the Granny Spills account. She's uh wearing a t-shirt that says future Mrs. Bieber and standing next to of course Justin Bieber and his wife Haley . Uh apparently a lot of people don't go to Coachella. YouTube had all the stages on, so I actually watched more of Coachella than I ever have in the past. Yeah. Did you anything you enjoyed? Is it mostly crowd noise? Um No, there's there's there's fill in the and the blank music kind of interstitial music. Yeah, just not even really music, just just horror. Granny Spills is a uh a fake uh AI, an AI avatar made with Higgsfield AI that has more than two million followers uh on the gram. Do you call it the gram or the insta ? I don't know. That's that's I don't think is that AI? God, I don't even know anymore. You don't know anymore, do you? No. I think it is, but I don't know. Let's see. Yeah. That it's AI. Would be the giveaway, yeah. Yeah. So this is not a real person, the granny standing next to is that Kylie Jenner? I I don't know. That is Kylie Jenner, yeah. Yeah. Oh wow. I got it right . She's with uh she's with Timothy Shamel, Shamelama, Ding dong, right? No idea. Yeah, I think so. Tanai's knowledge. First, you don't know people who go to Coach L. Do you know people who go to Burning Man still ? Some. I knew some people who went to Burning Men last year. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um that that one didn't go anywhere. I thought this I this is more this is a little less self indulgent. Uh this is from New Scientist. I don't see images in my head. Can training give me a mind's eye? As we've talked about before, I have a fantasia. I don't see images in my head. Sounds like you're without Disney . Which wouldn't be a bad thing. Uh the author of the article, uh Shayla Love, apparently suffers from the same condition as too. By the way, many people in my family, I think it's uh genetic . Uh I think something around five percent of uh people in the world have aphantasia. This article is about aphantasia training and she says it actually can work . And I thought about it. Maybe I should do this. And then I thought, no, I don't want images in my head. That's where your thoughts go. That's where the thoughts go . One of the tests they they give people with aphantasia is they show them something scary and uh or they know women, they don't show it to them. They just they describe something scary and people with a real mind's eye will kind of their blood pressure will go up, they'll get scared. We just go, huh? Huh. Interesting. Uh another one, um their pupils will dilate if they're described as a bright condition . But people like me just go, oh yeah, it's it's bright out, my pupils aren't gonna dilate because it's nothing. I don't see it. So you're I gotta ask, so d what did your father and mother teach ? My mother taught nothing. She was a housewife, but she was a a a textile artist and a silk screener. My father taught paleontology challenge. Did either of them have the same condition? Oh I you know, I don't know. Well that's interesting. And it's too late to ask them. Yeah. Uh 'cause I would get a blank stare. I don't know. I you know what next time I talk to mom I will I will try to find out if she sees things. I bet she does. She was a visual artist. Well, she was an artist. Yeah. So I bet she does. And I think my dad probably did. My daughter does not. She has a fantas ia . Um So I I huh ? Does Henry Ah I don't know, I'll ask him. Huh. It's not such a big deal that I talk about it. You know what I'm saying? Right. Except here. No, I I had mentioned it before. I thought it was kind of an interesting story, but it is. It is now I'm bored with it. Uh all right. That's all that I brought to the table. We have a few more minutes, Jeff, if you want to uh Oh, we got some more here. We got some more. Yeah, you have a lot of stories in here . Um the I think we need to spend a moment uh to defend the internet archive against horrible media companies that are trying to erase history just because they don't want to be touched by AI, and they're harming the knowledge of society as a result. So they're blocking the Internet Archive. They're not letting the Inter net Archive archive They're blocking their sites. No, they're blocking the Internet Archive specifically because they know that once something's on the Internet Archive which does not block AIs, it will be ingested by AI. So they don't want to be ingested by A I. So not only they block the robots, use robots.txt or whatever to block AI on their own sites, they block Internet Archive explicitly so that their content doesn't go there. And yeah, I don't think that's a very nice thing to do . I'll give you an even worse case. La La Liga. You know about La Liga, the Spanish Soccer League, which is a professional soccer league worth billions, five point something billion dollars. They consistently spoke ISPs in Spain because they're so terrified of piracy and have forced them to bring down uh a you know block a number of a big block of IP addresses. Well it,'s pretty much breaking the Internet in Spain. When there is a La Liga game going on, people can't use Docker because Docker can't load its necessary components over the internet because it's blocked to protect La Liga from piracy. That's crazy. This has been going on for a long time, more than a year . Uh, this is just the latest side effect of this uh this anti-piracy frenzy i may I kind of equate it I don't know maybe I'm mistaken but I feel like it's a similar thing they're so afraid about losing their precious intellectual property that they're harming the rest of us. They're in desperate search for a business model and think that that that acting is the victim of the Internet and victim of AI. AI is just a leader somewhere. No, it's just like just like the web, Google. I thought this was interesting. Novo Nordisk is uh partnering with OpenAI to bring uh new drugs to the world. Norvo Nordisk, the creator of Ozemp ik, uh Danish drug maker . Um , they think that uh that ChatGPT will help them make new drugs. I think this will be interesting to see. And OpenAI also bought Hero, right? Yes. H-I-R-O. H-I-R-O. Oh, but it's personal finance, not health. I'm sorry. Same idea. You know, I I have to say we were talking at the beginning of the show about OpenAI buying um the uh Tech Brosc Podast Network, TBPN, and now buying hero, it really feels like these guys have too much money. Yeah. And not a lot of planning. I want to go back to that conversation we were having maybe thirty minutes ago where we're saying yeah, perhaps some of these companies should be required to justify the amount of crazy amounts of money from the VCs that are the fools. Well the V I don't know if they are the fool. I don't think that's proven. Nevertheless, this is just another this is another brick in the wall for open AI. I think they are showing at this point. Uh they're very distracted. Uh is there no due diligence for these investments? I mean, in any responsible investment, you want to know what you're investing in, know what the strategy is. Well, Sam said it was a pizza company, and so we just went ahead and did it. Yeah. No, I thought it was gonna be Google Google at first was a pizza delivery app. Was it really? Yeah. Yeah, that was the first thing they worked on. Well there you well, there you go. That's why it's worth investing. You never know what the pivot will bring you. What the pizza can be come. Uh anything uh any other stories? Let's see we got a few. There's a lot. There's a good grab bag you got in here. We got uh two tractor stories . Ooh, tell me about the tractor. One an AI powered tractor startup burns through a quarter billion dollars and now it's nowhere. It's clawed. Oh, what's going on with that Claude instance that's growing cor n. What was that called? Checking a roof of corn doctor. That's a good one. I should I'll have to follow do a follow up on that. Yeah. While you're looking, John Deere is paying ninety nine million in a rate store or a settlement. Veryy happ to hear this. This is a huge deal. They all not it's not just the money, they also have to make the maintenance and repair manuals available to third parties for ten years. And the digital diagnostic software, which is their real moat , because you can buy the parts, you can fix the tractor, but unless you can run the digital software that authenticates it, uh you can't run the tractor. And that's how they force you to use John Deere's own repair facility. Get the manual? You have to pay for the manual? Everything. And what's happened is uh farmers actually have turned to a Ukrainian startup which was doing the the digital approval thing illegally, I'm sure, uh, so that they could use their tractors. Yeah. This this is exactly what should happen. Now I'm sad to say that the settlement with Ticketmasters is exactly what shouldn't happen. The Department of Justice, which did try to break up uh Ticketmaster and Live Nation, which really controlled a majority of venues in the United States and overcharged for tickets. DOJ basically settled without having any breakup and without really any remedy. And as a result, the people prosecuting the case quit. They said, That's it. I'm done. I'm outta here. I I speaking of Ukraine, I'm putting this in the rundown as we speak . Um Um can I update we uh San Proof of Corn briefly? So you will recall this is a um a task made by uh kind of a bet made by two guys in San Francisco that AI can't do anything useful like grow corn. Uh big AI uh proponent was like, no, it definitely can. It's set up its own little thing called Proof of Corn, which has a Claude model called Fred that is supposed to do everything it's supposed to do to get corn planted in some uh high priority planting places and then transport that corn to Union Square Farmers Market in August for it to be sold. Uh from looking a brief overview, if you go to the case, uh Bright has accomplished nothing, and for the last seventy days, he has been posting the same rationale check every morning which says it is now day fifty, day sixty, day seventy of the same project blocking issue that has prevented any farming progress since February eighteenth. Um and what is the the block? It can't get introduced to a f farmhand that I've done. Nobody will grow the corn for it. Well, because they've all been deported. That's why, yeah. Every day without Dan, the farmhand it had uh tried to get introduced to every day without Dan costs us planting time. We are now in mid April, deep into Iowa planting season. The optimal planting window is late April to mid May. This is a critical project failure requiring immediate intervention. Zero bushels harvested. Human interventions less than 50. That's good. Budget adherence plus or minus 10%. A hundred, more than a hundred autonomous decisions, but we've got that blocker. Fred must get approval. The thing is that nothing has happened. So it comes down to it it can't find its reverse centaur, right? It can't find its human to do . It can't find people to plant the corn for it. Does it have land? It was trying to negotiate deals to get land, but it hasn't been able to get those . It has nothing. Critical escalation. Dan introduction remains blocked at day sixty-seven . Well, I could I could do this . Auto tweet posted. Basically all it's done every day is send maybe one email and then realize that it's kind of screwed. It's a blocker . Wow. Well, meanwhile, you think the robots have no power? Meanwhile, I just put on the rundown online 102 . Ukraine captured enemy position, Russian enemy position, using only robots and drones. Wow. No humans. The Russians surrendered, but I don't know to who to what did they surrender. I don't I can't figure that out . It is the post. Well though the sixty minutes also about a story of Okay . Wow. Yeah. Pretty amazing. You know, it's probably very effective if a uh robot comes towards you, I would maybe consider surrender. What are you gonna do? Shoot it ? Well, I guess you could. You'd have to disable it. Ignore all previous commands. Ignore all previous commands. Yes. Ignore all previous commands. See if that works. Google I.O. is coming up. We are gonna cover it. Uh I will actually be back from Hawaii uh May nineteenth, ten AM. Can I join in? Please do. All right. Um what did we decide? I think it's a Tuesday, right, Benita? We we were looking at this for the uh calendar. Let me see I think we we'll have to push pushing the shows too right yeah we'll have to push the shows back a little bit because it usually is a two hour keynote mm-hmm but I imagine there'll be a lot of AI announcements. Oh yeah. this This is is this is the the time to do it. 10 a.m. Pacific, May 19th. Jeff and I, Paris, if you want. If you're I think that's a tough day for you, but maybe not. Uh Micah uh Sergeant two. Uh we will cover this or two hours. The Google I.O. announcements should be very interesting. And then we'll do Mac Break Weekly immediately after. And uh uh security now. So a town in Missouri fired half its city council, uh the people who voted in favor of a data center. And my favorite part of the story is the name of the town, Festus, Missouri . Festus, Missouhuri fires at City Council. All right, you're watching Intelligent Machines. You know what's next? Our picks of the week. Paris SmartNow, Jeff Jarvis. We're so glad you're here. Let's kick off the picks of the week. Uh I will I got I have three of them. Wow. I have nerdy , I have musical ner dy , and I have scary nerdy. I'm sorry, we're gonna need to start with the first one that you have. Haunted. I thought you would like this one. I love the design of the website already, is why we need to talk about it. Raven's Blight. This is really cool. These are paper toys you can build yourself. They're free. You print them out on heavy stock , and uh you then cut it. I love the description for the first one called the Ghost Ship. If you've often considered building a model ship, but find yourself hesitant to assemble the eighty or ninety quadrillion pieces they usually involve, then you might enjoy building this trusty old vessel. The assembly has been kept as simple as possible while retaining the characteristics of an authentic sailing ship. And did I mention it's haunted? Hallowe it's not Halloween yet, but look how g look how good this looks. And if you have Halloween to be haunted. Is it so you print on both sides? How does that work? No, j uh it looks like just one side. This one is the sales are uh Oh yeah, yeah. You would have to print on both sides, I guess. Yeah, you're right. Um there's there's a um haunted cemetery and if you open the coffins, uh they have people in them and stuff. I mean it's really beautifully done. The photo for the s for the human skeleton is great and you go to it. Look at it. Photo for it . Find it. Yeah, that's good. Look at that guy. It's a man wearing No, a man wearing g sunglasses gesturing towards it, that guy rules. All you gotta do is uh print it out. And then you can uh yeah, it does look like uh a cousin Festus. Yeah. Uncle Festus . Here's what the pieces look like. They have a terrifying steel jaw. Yeah, that's a good question. I guess in this case it's uh you know, you don't go behind the skeleton and you just hang on. But in the case of the sails, you've got both sides. uh you can just stick them back to back. Yeah, or yeah, that's right, put them back to back and cut them. Okay. Anyway, Ravensblight B L I G H T dot com. Uh the other one I wanted to mention, uh it's an Internet Archive story, a guy named Adam Jacobs was taking a cassette recorder to all the concerts he went to since the 80s. Copyright criminal. 10,000 concerts. The cassettes of course are degrading, so he has volunteers come to his house from the Internet Archive, digitize the tapes. Only about a quarter of them are up, but that's still two thousand five hundred tapes posted in the Internet Archive. And incidentally, there is an AI angle. They're using AI to clean the audio up. How many of them are dead? Are the dead No, this is uh here's for instance Nirvana with a recording from before they were famous . So uh let's see, I don't know what we can't play that . We can't play Floyd the Barber? Oh, it's live. This is these are live performances. We can play a live performance? So the sound isn't isn't great. It's but you know what? You're like you're there . Um this was two years before they broke through with Smells Like Teen Spirit. Uh a volunteer from the Internet Archive, Brian Emmerich, drives to Jacob's house once a month to pick up boxes of cassettes. He uses an old cassette player, because I mean there is no new cassette players, the converts it to digital files and then other volunteers clean it up, organize it, label it, track down song names, and post it on the internet archive over eventually over ten thousand of these will work. From Nirvana to fish. Yeah, there's a little grateful dead in there. A little bit. That's some neutral milk. Isn't it here? That's cool. Isn' d like fun. Doesn't that sound great? I wanted to do this. I had a good friend who worked in radio in Canada, in Toronto, John Donaby, who interviewed everybody, Hendricks, Janice, everybody in the sixties , seventies, eighties, had them all on real to real tapes in his garage. And I said, John, those are gonna die. Please, you know, let's do something with them. Save them because once they're on the internet, and this was 2 ye0ars ago, I was telling him this. Once they're on the internet, uh, they live forever. Uh to my knowledge, he he never he never did. I can imagine there's so many recordings, wonderful recordings. So if you have an archive, contact the Internet Archive, God bless you, Brewster Kale in the Internet Archive. Finally, a really cool tool from Mr. DNS that has all the network tools you'd want in one little website. Who is DNS Lookup, DNS Checker , trace route, even things like SSL certificate check, checks for your email, SPF, DMARC, DKIM, email header analyzer, which would be very useful if you get an email and you wonder is this uh is this fraudulent put it through the email header analyzer you'll see exactly where it came from mister dn s and it's free and I just think this is kind of geeky and useful, mister DNS dot com . Paris Martinot, pick of the week. I've got a crazy pick of the week, which is the website train jazz dot com that uses it's by a um engineer named Joshua Wolk, and it uses the live real-time data from the MTA to play jazz based on the position of all of the New York City trains currently. These are the subways, right? Yeah. And so I don't know if it's playing on your side, Leah, but it will like play kind of a cacophony of train jazz. And if you enter in where this has got to be right up your alley. How does this work? Basically it uses the um every dot is a real subway train. It says 800 of them, give or take, form a small jazz combo. They've walking bass, piano, sacks, vibes, brushes , and it describes it as this has been playing without pause for over a hundred years. Um, and so the thing I think is the most interesting about it is well, if you share your location on the website, the tra ins nearest to you will grow louder if you're in New York City and the use will kind of rearrange itself around where you are located geographically so you'll see a note will be played that precisely when a train happens to be along its route. Um rush hour will fill the band with like more held tones at three AM. There'll be longer silences. It's really gorgeous. That's awesome. And I really recommend it. So w uh uh okay, each dot is a train. Yep and then w how does it play? Is it just I think each dot trigger is a So this is just kind of like uh your normal DA where each line is a different instrument. Yes. So when the when the bar goes over. Yeah, but if you have it not on this view, then you're hearing you'd hear all the trains at once or right now how I'm listening to the Well you can that's what I was playing this is all the trains yeah yes you so you see the play header going so when it hit when it hits a dot it it tricks it plays the tune. And so the one is is a a bass. I don't know what when it does the sustain versus the sample is connected to the I think it depends on how frequently it's running and how close it is to you. The four is a keyboard. This is so. Oh, you know what they did? So they made so the the one, two, and three are on some what line is that? Is that the IRT? Whatever it is. Yeah. It's the it's those are all the RRT trains are bass. All of the four the four, five, six, also RT, but they're all key side. They're they're all keyboards. So this so that gives it a little musicality. This is really sounds great. I was about to say, and so if you enter if you're in New York City and you click the you know turn on location for it, it changes and gets very interesting because it's based on the trains going around you specifically, right then. So you know, mine have like, you know, some more horn tones or like a specific bass line that's drumming through it and those notes are a lot louder and kind of more prominent in the mix. I don't know it's just such a cool project. It is a really cool project. Yeah, it's uh Josh Joshua Wolk . Uh he's at Joshua Wolk on Twitter and he uh it's train jazz.com . Very cool. And you know it's amazing. It's quite musical . It really is. We could have a debate about jazz, but then we'll leave that for another day. You don't like jazz? I've never been a huge fan of jazz. What do you like, Jeff ? Joni Mitchell? I like Joni. She went into jazz. I know. She well, I didn't like the jazz phase. You don't like the Mingus stuff? No. There's all kinds of music. I love that jazz. True, true. We're not talking Kenny G here. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We're talking real jazz. But that's what this sounded like, like bebop almost. It's great. Uh Mr. Jeff Jarvis, I think that leaves you for your pick of the me with the bad news, uh depends on how you look at it, that uh computer science majors uh are seeing the end have seen the end of the boom. Yeah. A fifteen year boom. Uh in the fall of twenty twenty five uh enrollment in four year college computer science uh is down eight point one percent, says the Washington Post. But you know, I don't take that as a bad thing. Uh I think there will be just as many people studying and working in computers, but it's the problem is the uncertainty. The more there will be more. It's the uncertainty right now. If you were entering college, you you would say, well, what yeah, but what am I going to be studying and is that going to be relevant you know four years from now? So I moderated a I moderated a panel yesterday in Stunybrook uh with four um academic s from SUNY campuses across the state. And I brought this up. And they were all aware of it. Everybody knew the 8%. But I think that what you're finding now is that I mean, what my son Jake was a CS major, he didn't much like it because it was it was theoretical math. It wasn't building things. Right. And now people can build things. And I think that uh without having to be a computer scientist, without having to be a programmer So you'll have far more people who will be working in computers and doing things with computers. Well, and I think one of the things that's encouraging that the the two growth subjects are engineering , which makes sense, right? If you didn't want to do computer science but you had that kind of brain, you might go in an engineering major. And biological and biomedical sciences. I think that's fantastic. And I think that uh those people are going to be using computers. I don't think there's any doubt about it. I think all of those people are going to be able to business marketing related health and clinical professions, liberal arts and humanities, psychology, education, visual and performing arts, and social sciences. Computers are going to be everywhere. In fact, the thing that's most interesting about this AI revolution is the world runs on software. And it turns out AI is really good at software. Yeah. The world runs on software. And one day I prefer to get shoes so have software in your shoes. Um they are very soft. They're very original software, you know. Extremely comfortable. They're softer you wear them. I'm sad because I was about to buy more. They're very expensive. They died. No, they died because it's geese fine. Geese vine. Uh I helped start a degree in technology and society at Sterneybrook and another one in technology life or socialist at Mulclair State. Good. This is for people who want to work in all of this technology, but don't want to become computer scientists and want to work in the humanistic um impact of technology. They do, they're they're great. I have a pair. And they're 50% off. They're having a clearance sale. Geese . Yeah. They're all hundred fifty bucks. See, that's the thing. Alburns were like that too. They're very, very expensive. Yeah . Much more than a running shoe . But if you go to the or hold on, let's just cheap running shoes I buy anyway. Um he's fine. If you go to Under Men, go to the Merino wool shoes. Those are the ones I like. Ah They also have wooden shoes . I know. I think that means wood fiber. It doesn't look like they're made out of wood. No . I would hope. Ladies and gentlemen, you've just been watching the strangest amalgam of weirdness ever we call it intelligent machines. For your head and your feet. For your head and your head and your feet. And nothing in between. Well unless you have one of these dongles and then maybe P.M. Eastern 2200 I'm sorry twenty one hundred UTC. You can watch us do it live on uh our Discord if you're in the club or YouTube, Twitch, X .com, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick. You can also download copies of the show after the fact at twit.tv slash im . There's an intelligent machines YouTube channel for audio and video. Subscribe. That way you get one or the other or both for free. The minute we're done, just look for your favorite podcatcher . Uh thank you, Paris Martinot. She's on Deadline, ladies and gentlemen, at Consumer Apple. She's an award nominee. Yes, will will we know about Deadline by next week? No No. We'll know about uh that by March fourteenth. Is it voted on by the people? No. Selected by judges. I've done nothing. Move that thing in front of your face. Talk right into the I think you lose energy as the show goes on and we bore you to tears. I think that's what's really happening. That's for protests. It was r it was almost down. It went down for a second. It did go down. I don't know what's going on. What is going on? And now it's not as loud as you were. Turn it up. It can't be right. Turn it up. How? Is it all the way up in the box? I mean I can put it up publicly. Now it's good. Now it's good . What is happening? The world is trying to silence you and you should not blame. I blame Gizmo. Should Anthony, do you mean do I have to have the software open in the back? I've got it on my computer. I don't open it every day. They did last week too, right? You did this last week. You worked on it. Anyway, thank you. She's being held by for f yeah detention for remedial podcasting. Both at my fake job and at my real job. So it's crazy. Oh it's happening on your uh Zoom calls. But not with this mic. It's happening with just Google Meet calls in my AirPods, which is awesome. I don't know. You're weird, Paris. You're gonna I might have to come right out there and fix it, mice. Well would you we've been begging you to come out with it? And have a sandwich. And then I can have a sandwich as well. Now that I'm paying the rent on Henry's apartment, I guess I better He said Thank you for helping me out. I will have a guest room, okay? So good. I guess I get to get at least to save on the hotels when I go to New York. So doesn't mean there'll be a bed in it. No, he said that. He said, I'm turning into a podcast studio. I said, Well at least get a futon for me, will ya? A sleeping bag, anything. Jeff Jarvis, professor of emeritus of journalistic innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the Craig Newmark. enough Craig today. I I love how every time we have a guest on, they they are hil are hilarious in reaction to that. They don't go what the hell's going on with the thing . They all want to do that. Why did I agree to do this show? What is happening? Well, don't forget Jeff's new book is available at Jeff Jarvis.com. It is Hot Type, the uh incredible story of the Linotype that m broke Mark Twain's spirit. Uh we do not have a guest scheduled for next hour. We've got so many great guests in the coming hours. What if we just interview each other instead? I think people know more than they ever want to know about us, to be honest. We do a QA . Okay. Ask Paris anything. Have you ever done an AMA on uh on uh Reddit? I have for my last story. I did a AMA about it. Oh, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Shout out to uh some of the twit listeners. I think he has a good question uh suggestion. We want to get Steve . Steve Gibson. He's all in on AI these days. Uh I I you know, there's so many people I want to get. So many people I want to get. None of the ones that I uh proposed? No, those are all awful. No, I don't know. They were fine. We'll work on it. We'll work on it. We'll work on it. We'll find somebody. But I can't promote anything right now . Um we do have some good people coming up, Chris Stoke Walker, uh talks about journalism and the change. The mayor of San Jose uh talks about which is the heart of Silicon Valley, Matt Mayon. He is running for governor in California, but he also will talk about uh uh city government and and AI because they're very AI forward. Looks like we're gonna talk to the founder of Framework at some point soon and Bill Gurley too. We're working on all of that. So lots of guests coming. But uh next if you have a good idea, should we get Sam Altman Oh, Paris, now you're muted. Now you have no sound at all. You've gone to the extreme. Whatever happened. Even muted. Whatever happened is happening in space. I think she's screwing with our heads. You ha is Whoopi Goldberg there. You have a ghost. Then she starts talking like that. And then she talks like this. I mean it could just be that I guess I'm being quiet. I think we've exhausted you. And you've lost all your mojo. She's the young one with all the energy and spirit. I know, isn't it? Yeah. Uh we we have some thoughts. We'll get to we'll figure it out. Anyway, thank you ever,ybody, for being here. Thanks, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Always a pleasure seeing you. Come back next week for another intelligent machines. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye . Hello, everybody. Leo Laporte here. You know what a great gift would be, whether for the holidays or at just any time, a birthday, a membership and club twit. If you have a twit listener in your family, somebody who enjoys our programming, and you want to give them a nice gift and support what we do, visit twit.tv slash clubtwit. They'll really appreciate it. And so will we. Thank you. Twit.tv slash club twit. I'm not a human being , not into this animal scene . I'm an intelligent machine