Val Kilmer AI Performance Controversy

It's time for intelligent machines. Paris Martin knows here. Jeff Jarvis is here. We're to talk about the lines. They're too damn long. We're also going to talk to Ian Bogost. He is uh a contributing writer at the Atlantic, a professor at the Washington University in St. Louis, and he says pay attention to the small stuff. That's the good stuff. We'll talk about that in a lot of AI news next on Intelligent Machines . Podcasts you love . From people you trust . This is Twit ch This is Intelligent Machines with Jeff Jarvis and Paris Martineau, episode 867 , recorded Wednesday, April 22nd, 2026. The Ketchup Effect. It's time for intelligent machines, the show we cover AI, robotics, and the smart little dood ads, and goo gauze around your house. I think that's the oz, is that right? I am being corrected now by two professional writers. Paris Martineau is here, investigative journalist at Consumer Reports. Hello, Paris. Hello. We are both two professional writers and two professional write opinion havers. Yes. No, as as am I. I I apologize because I realized last we you're wrong which is not conducive to good conversation. We'll have that conversation again. I was about to say last week, I don't think this is the only time you've showed it that we're probably done it once or twice. I'm a I'm a little biased when it comes to AI. But anyway, we'll get to that. Uh also with us, uh Mr. Jeff Jarvis. He is the Emeritus Professor of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School. Journalistic University of New York , also uh adjunct or fellow or something or other at Montclair State University, and he is a professor of something or other at uh SUNY Stonybrook, the author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis . Actually one of your uh books, magazine, was edited by our guest. Coming up, we're gonna talk to Ian Bogost, Bogost, Bogost, Bogost, right? By the time he's here we'll have figured it out. Bogosth. Claude says it's Bogost. And he edited a magazine. Uh, but Ian is a really interesting fellow, game designer, uh, contributing writer at uh at The Atlantic. He's also a professor. Uh three things. Of three things, the three different departments at the Washington University of St. Louis. But he's really a fascinating guy who is a fan of AI, but who says that the friction is what's important in life. We'll talk about friction with uh Ian Bogost. He's not going to join us until about uh about first second hour of the show. First hour I have a surprise. I normally end the show as you do too with our picks of the week. I'm gonna start the show with my pick of the week. Are you ready? Well be that way 'cause you're in charge, so I'll in charge I get the show. My pick of the week this week is a little website you see right here called Damn L ines. Oh, I know this website. Do you know this website? I do. I found out about it because one of the lines is my son's salt hanks, which is closed right now, so there's no lines. And even if it was open, it would be out of sandwiches at this hour. That's right. You have to go earlier. But this site is really cool because it shows you when the next live stream is going to begin. It shows you when the peak is. Look at that. This is what happens. This is what happens. So it was a thirty eight minute wait and then he sold out and there's no wait anymore and you can see where the peaks are. This is a very cool site. Right now it's just a few restaurants uh in New York City, Tomy Jazz, John's Obli cker Street, which conveniently is right next door to Salt Hanks. So one uh one one window does it all. And uh a salt hank clone called Breakfast by Salt's Cure . But our guest today is Okay, it is not a Salt Hank clone, but that's beside the point. It's got salt in the name. That's all that matters. That's all I care about. Our uh the guest is the creator of this site. Lucas is on the line. I said I wouldn't say anything about his he's a little bit anonymous here. Lucas, it's great to see you. I guess. Thanks for watching. I love this idea. First of all, I gotta ask you, because this is an AI show. Yeah. Vibe coded. Oh yeah. Yeah. Uh me and Claude. Um Claude was my model of choice for this one . Um did you use the design tool, the new design tool, or did you do it all from No, like I mean like everyone's got their own, like every engineer and even like those starting like uh to pick up engineering have their own like preferences and flavors for how they interact with AI. Like I like to um audit everything it does and like see as it and generates the files and whatnot. You actually read the code? Well you you glance over it. Like you see , make sure what you can catch certain you can catch certain like gotchas in it. Right. Um versus like other other friends of mine um will have like five agents at once or ten agents at once. It's a little bit it's a little bit riskier because some can go a little bit AWOL and then it's hard to track. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. I mean, look, uh uh to me this is the best video game ever invented. It is I could I play every day and for hours at a time. But let me uh you did uh something though that is actually not AI, because in order to get these videos of the line, what did you do to get these pictures. Yeah, the the fun thing about this project, like I've been I guess like I can give you a history of like where the whole concept came from. Yeah, place too, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So I'll I'll start off with that. Um years ago, when I was in my last year at university in Canada, um at, Que Universenity's. Good school. One of my yeah, yeah, the great school. Uh so the issue with Queen's University is only four bars on campus and there's about twenty-five thousand students. Yes. And so about like 10 PM ish, come around, the lines are a kilometer long. And so for all four years of university, the biggest paradigm and an annoyance that we would have across all campus was when is the optimal time to stop drinking beer at your house and to start drinking beer at the bar. Um, because you don't want to go too early where no one's there. You don't want to go too late where you have to wait in line. Um and it was always a guessing game. And different nights, it would be a different time. You would rely on someone, some friend who went early to give you an update. So my last year, I just was toying around with the idea. I had a friend move it into an apartment that had a good view of one of the bars. I put a webcam in the window. Um it's an IP cam. And like an IP cam is just bas uhically a camera that lets you route the footage over to an IP address is uh the gist of it. Um and then just put it on on the website. Like it was a simple static front end, uh just had the live stream viewer, and then I started I I put that stuff. Did you pay the people whose window it was in? Yeah and this is on campus. It's like the going rate on campus is like fifty dollars Canadian a month. Um nothing crazy. Like like the New York rate now is a little bit higher. Um our value. Real estate. Hey, if you have an apartment across from Johnson, probably the only window those apartments got. Yeah, yeah. Well well, one of two or one of three in many cases. Um but like the cool thing about it was when I was in university was um like I sent the the URLs for the website uh to a few group chats and it was like a Facebook moment where within hours, like everyone on campus es. So and it just yeah, it just went around. Like there was no intentional marketing behind it other than sharing. Well Canadians are nice. So I get that. I want to hear what happened when you went knocking as a stranger on the door on Bleaker Street saying I want to put a camera in your window. What was that what was that uh interchange like? Yeah, well it's funny. I I I try to go door knocking first, but then like the every residential door security gets in your way 'cause you need a code to get get in. And so you can't even upstairs. Yeah. And and and door knocking's hard because it it's a linear time scale. Like one door takes two minutes, et cetera, and it's not that easy. So what what I did instead was um if you go on like street Ease, you're any residential uh website, you can find listings of like previous apartments and whatnot. Um and hopefully the pictures are good enough where you can identify the view in the windows. And I just found the units of that had a good view of the street and you would just find landmarks like a tree or like a building brick across the road. And I just wrote letters to them. Like I printed like a hundred uh identical letters from FedEx, put them all in envelopes, wrote the address on it. Snail mail? You put a yeah, just nailed it up. And then uh yeah, if it that's the only way to go about doing it from from my cheap, it's scalable. Like took no more than a few hours to send out a hundred. Um, and then from that, I got my first initial like four people who are interested who I went with. Like inbound leads from that was probably around like 10 or 12. Um, and that way it's great because you have like you can choose between who is the optimal apartment, who has the optimal w indow? Cause the ch then the fun thing about this project, uh, to answer your question before, it's like it's both an engineering problem and it's an operations problem and it's a hearts and minds problem. And the engineering's part is easiest. Like putting a website out and running a computer vision model, uh that that's that's really the easiest because it's just it takes a little bit of uh a learning curve and uh kinda and with AI now that that's really fast. The operations problem is something that like you kind of need to experiment with. And so finding out to how to get those interested to like help support the project. And there's a a high degree of trust involved between like myself and these tenants because you're putting a camera in their window. And like the obvious answer is like, well, cameras have a microphone. So like there's a high degree of trust between me to tell them that okay, the audio is disabled. Right. And they need to trust that. Likewise it's connected to the router. Um It looks like you also blur everything but that restaurant. Yeah. Yeah, that that's intentional too. No one no one should be seeing into a person's window. Or money. Right. How did you pick how did you pick these as your targets? Ave, and so these are all my favorite places. Specifically breakfast by salt's cure, best pancakes in New York. Uh huh. Everyone pretty good. Yeah, ever every weekend I have one go there. And it's like about a 15-minute walk for a 10 minute walk for me. And it was a question of okay, should I make the commitment, get out of my apartment, go there, the lines either going to be ten minutes or it's going to be sixty minutes. New Yorkers seem to like lines. Henry says They don't like lines. No, we don't like lines. We just know that things are worth the effort. There are some things that you know are worth the effort. And it depends on the speed of the like the speed of the line is a very specific aspect of it. There's a breakfast by Salts Care also in Brooklyn that also has a line. And I've been there quite a few times because the pancakes are fine. Are you lobbying Paris to have a damn lines camera placed in the They're fine, but they're extremely good when you take into account the fact that they also offer gluten free pancakes. So with my friends that are gluten free, they really insist onok like the need yet ? Yeah, the Celia 's you have what how many right now? How many restaurants are you? I used to have Cats Deli. Uh I had the Cats Deli one raw I got in the cats once because the guy that there we were waiting in line for the table and a guy had a heart attack and was taken out in an ambulance, I got his table. So that was I don't know if you could incorporate that into damn lines.com somewhere. See if you see an ambulance in front of the place and you know you're going to run the fun thing about this project is like it's it just it has instant product market fit because no one like like I put this in the website photo, like no one likes waiting in a damn line. Like they're they're annoying. In New York, they're they're all over the place. And if anyone can just save time, that's the instant utility. Um whether that or not that translates into a revenue model, who knows? Like right now, this is just like me funding this from my Amex. Um but yeah it's all so we gotta ask the standard uh startup question business model? I don't know. I've I I I I put like a contribution button there to see if like anyone wants to like contribute. Like I'm not calling it donations because like there there's's no tax . Yeah. I'm like I've I figured okay there's probably like a legal gray area there so I'll call I'll call contributions. Um no one's contributed yet so I don't think there's a certain a certain fellow whose restaurant is on here, Salt Hanks, uh who th who s he said, you know, surfline, which does the same thing with the surf at beaches, makes big money charging surfers for the latest surf information. So he thinks there's a business model here. So yeah, I I think that's that that's that's got but that's got legs too the challenge that it's like a kind of like a chicken the egg because like in order to charge a consumer business model you, kind of need like enough critical mass. Yeah. Make the utility right. Like five locations isn't really enough unless you live in like the West Village. Um r where like you get four of the West Village ones. Um but yeah, that's definitely an option. I mean like I'm I have no intention to like really make this into like the next big money making startup. This is just to serve people of New York with utility. So as long it was fun. No, it's it's totally fun. But like and like it gives me utility too. So if this covers its costs and nets zero, I am happy. Like that that is all I need because I cannot subsidize it for my Amex for too much longer. Did Henry give you a free sandwich at least? Oh no, I I enjoy paying the the how much is that thirty two dollars . I am going to talk to Henry. That young man's gonna give you a free sandwich. Do restauranteurs mind these cameras or do they like 'em? Every every one so of the four and this is not me that's interviewed them. I've only spoken to Henry because Henry actually reached out to me, but like the New York Times did a piece on this and they interviewed them um and like the New York Post. Um of the three, the only one who had concerns was John's on Blicker. And their concerns were valid because they were saying that the wait time estimates were too long for them. Because the keyword here is estimates. Like I can only like estimate between like traffic in, traffic out and dwell time. Um and they were saying it w it was a risk of turning away business, which is fair. And so like for They're also jealous of the longer lines next door. Yeah, the next next door, yeah. And like that that that all beat is a fair concern. Like I do not want a business to be hurt by making people not go to the location. And so for John's, I like did like a the sp sp special case for them where I made the the wait time uh faster for that in this case. Uh what's the hardware you have uh in the apartment windows? Uh it's uh Rio Link cameras for the ones I've been going with. They're like 150 bucks on Amazon cheap. Yeah, it's tied to a wife. Sorry? What is it? Do you have to use the the routers, the people's routers? No, oh no, no, no. Wi-Fi well well s most are Wi-Fi. It has an ether net option for some of the apartments, specifically two of them. The routers significantly far away. And so when I was trying to send four K like thirty FPS footage. It is good quality. It's really good quality. Yeah. It it it it was 'cause you'll you'll see sometimes like for I just saw it a minute ago, like some and then this is neat too, like like um one of the snapshots had like a gray block for half of it. What that actually was was just packet loss over the internet for that snapshot. Like only half of it got sent through, and then the other half just got lost in the ether of the internet somewhere. Um and so to like combat that, like yes, Ethernet's always the best. It's just um and so like I bought a few Wi-Fi extenders for a few of these tenants and just like you plug it in right next door and you plug it in, you plug these and ends with this Wi Fi uh Wi Fi extender, just that just increases unit cost by about seventy five bucks. So it's always good to keep unit costs lower. So many years ago, in the beginning of this thing we call the web , I created something called BurboCam on Bourbon Street in New Orleans. Oh. From the Cat's Meow Bar out on Bourbon Street. Now, Bourbon Street, you may know is a place where people tend to get inebriated. Yes and take shirt off. Exactly. So it became incredibly popular as people came into the c into the camera to watch people lifting their garments for the camera and there were sites that started up where they collected the best bits as well. Oh Paris. So I think you need performance run out of the restaurants. Yeah. Yeah. I I I get some mimes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it's funny, I I had one one of the tenants who installed an apartment and uh she she said like when when she told her parents about like the offer she got for a camera, like her parents were fully supportive because they're like, Oh, like the camera's gonna give increased security for your building. Like now there's uh now there's footage outside. I'm like, I mean, yeah, like it's that's like a byproduct. If there's a murderer on the street out front, you'll have footage. Yeah. I mean I mean well I I only persist the actual video files for about ten minutes, but the snack persist like into perpetuity. Yeah, you don't want tens, you know, petabytes of t data on your hardware. Yeah, it's just Lucas. I just I just uh you know, I said somebody told me about this. I sent it to Hank. He said, Oh yeah, it's blowing up. I know all about it. And I said, Well, can we talk to Lucas on the show? 'Cause I think it's really cool. Damnlines com . Lucas, a pleasure meeting you. Thank you. I really appreciate your joining us today. Thank you, Lucas. Damn lines. Take care. That's fun. All right. I'll tell you guys offline where he works. Oh, I've already found it. What? How did you find out? His full name was on the zoom. And you did it. God, you guys are terrible. Well, we're reporters. Such is the nature of our job. I was literally in the middle of texting Jeff about something related to this as you ask that question. That's why I didn't put his last name on the air. Wow. Man . All right. Let's do an ad. And then uh then we'll continue. You guys are bad. You're bad . 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No. Your mom, you mean? Yeah. Your mom and related parties who would be Oh, your mom if your mom's lying to you, she's lying to you. Well I mean are you lying to you need to look into it with her as well as other people famili people familiar with the situation. Parties briefly. Mom does love you. Don't ask dad though because he doesn't know. He definitely doesn't. Hello, Gizmo. Little brief . She's you know trying to oh gosh, don't do it, Gizmo . So uh Steve quoted this uh paper which is actually from the cloud security alliance, but it's authored by a huge number of very respectable people in the security community, including Jennifer Easterly, former director of CISA, she's currently director of RSAC. Bruce Schneier, we've talked about him all the time. Uh Katie Missouris, I've interviewed her, uh just really good people, and 250 other CISOs. And the paper is the AI Vulnerability Storm Building a Mythos Ready Security Program . They fundamentally accept that Mythos is what it says it is , a uh an AI model. Did they use it? Uh well I'm gonna talk about some people who have used it. Some by the way, without permission. Well there's that. But uh but uh how do they know unless they uh I think some of them have used it. But so um th they uh are addressing people CISOs in business who are going to be faced with a risk spike as soon as Mythos becomes widely available. Um they say what will happen next, the storm of vulnerability disclosures from Project Glass Wing is the first of many large waves of AI discovered vulnerabilities. By the way, that's more than just mythos. And that's the other takeaway from this, is all AIs can do this to a certain extent. All of the top frontier models are very good at fighting security. They will all get better as time. And they will all get better. These capabil the capabilities seen in mythos will quickly become more widely available, dramatically increasing the number and frequency of complex and novel attacks organizations will face. Organizations are already facing this. This is a graph from that paper talking about how long it takes from the announcement of a vulnerability, what they call the CVE disclosure to it being weaponized, to their uh being an exploit in the wild. And a few years ago, in 2018, it would take on average two point three years between the time the C VE came out and the time hackers reverse engineered it and were able to exploit it, that number has been going down rapidly. Last year it was twenty-three days . This year it's ten hours. Ten hours from the time it the exploit is announced to the time it's exploited. And I think you can directly point to AI being responsible for that. That's really the big breakthrough. This comes from a site called Zero Day Code. Because you're using AI to create the exploit once you're doing vulnerability. So the AI can look at the CVE and reverse, in effect, reverse engineer it, saying, okay, this is what they fixed, this is the vulnerability, and it will make make it can a proof of concept from that CVE and then the hacker can then apply it. But if things have been done responsibly, hasn't the leak been f been plugged out? This is the and this is why this paper was written because uh it's very frequent that the patch goes out but doesn't get applied in a prompt fashion. And partly that's because they used to have time. Right. They don't have time anymore. And so that's really part of what this paper is is all about is um they project uh zero day clock projects that it will be less than an hour by the end of this year and less than a minute in a couple of It also, just to answer your question, the the percentage of exploited CVEs has been going up like crazy. It's now 72% of all CVEs get exploited on or before the day of disclosure. Even though they're being patched. Patches take time. Usually getting this data from from uh data sources let me how do you know that how do you know that places the government's CISA VolNCEC which is a very well known respected uh vulnerability, commercial threat intelligence . Um there actually are uh 10 independent sources they say and they're all listed in the uh zero day clock. So um there are Metasploits, another one. There are a lot of uh companies that spend make a lot of money, in fact, charging companies for this kind of information. Uh through threat intelligence, they call it. In fact, some of our advertisers do threat intelligence. So, anyway, I wanted to mention that. I also wanted to mention, and we we talked about this last week that uh Dario Omode went to the White House a week ago Friday, talked to Scott Bissent and Susie Wiles, the chief of staff, and apparently, Trump has been convinced that well, anthropic's not so bad. Well, you know who's also convinced NSA spies who are using mythos. Yeah. They're not paying any attention to the blacklist. You know why? Because it's too good a tool to ignore. Well, and and and and the and and the Trumpists want the danger the more dangerous the tool, the more they want it, the more it's appealing. One more data point. Mozilla shipped the latest version of Firefox, Firefox 150 yesterday, and announced that they had fixed in it 271 bugs which they found with mythos The uh that exact article says that the Mozilla team the Firefox team doesn't think that AI is going to upend cybersecurity long term, but that obviously software developers are gonna be in for kind of a rocky transition with this. Yeah, because they will use AI to patch as fast as the bad guys use AI to find. That's critical. I asked Steve about this. I said, well isn't this going to be a you know, a seesaw battle like it they're gonna patch it, then the new AI will come out and find more. He said eventually you get to stability where you don't have any bugs. You don't have any more exploits. The software is fixed. Finally fixed. By who? Well, and this is important to understand. We have lived in a world where software is awful. It's buggy. It's not well written. But is it always a bug that's a vulnerability, or sometimes is it part of a design that just says, Oh, I didn't do that if somebody 's designed. For instance, uh Cisco, which makes of course a lot of uh internet hardware. You know, the the government's always talking about these damn Chinese routers. Well, Cisco routers are often the most exploited routers. They're enterprise routers. And Cisco has in the past, for instance, left passwords in, default passwords in the router, so that you can access the interface. That's not a bug. That's just a stupid mista ke. Right? So there are bugs, there are mistakes, there are unintentional. There are unique ways to attack something that someone hadn't thought of. This is the problem with with guardrails, too. But AI can find it. Well no. But that's what you're doing. That's the point of this. suddenly we're gonna be in a world where like this AI security checking is gonna be an essential part of the release process for any like new feature or software. That's incredibly that's incredibly expensive. How when we get a couple years down the line to where these companies are charging let's say they're not even charging a hundred percent of what it costs to do these tasks. They're charging only fifty percent, which is already a lot more than what they're charging now. How is any company going to afford to do this sort of a central check for every single thing always? Well they better. What if you're just a little app maker in the app store? What if you're just what if you're twit and trying to plug some sort of It may mean it may mean that uh either software gets more expensive or uh because what is also a certainty is if you are worthy of attack, the bad guys will be using these tools uh to attack you. So even if it's expensive, because there's money to be made. And and let's not forget the cost of not fixing these holes is perhaps even greater. Many companies are realizing that. Have you taken any of the stuff you've vibe coded and put it through asking for the phone? Every time I do anything, I go through a security check, absolutely. And almost all these tools have uh skills for security checks. There are third party skills for security checks. I will run sometimes m multiple ones. But nothing. But the ironic thing is I'm just doing that for myself. I I am not putting commercial software. I mean it's public because I put it on GitHub if somebody wants to see it, but I'm not putting out commercial software. Uh and yet I still do that because I don't want to accidentally publish uh you know API key or the passwords to my house or whatever. So I always do that. I always do that. And I think that that's going to be a standard operating procedure, if it's not already with every bit of software. The question that I was asking Steve is, software perfectible? And he says yes, it's deterministic. It's math. So it is all ultimately it is possible to have perfect software. Humans are not good at that. We we now know humans cannot do it. I'm still going to question that premise . I again because I'm going to say one more time. You cannot anticipate ever y malign use that someone will come up with to get around something. Well this is kind of what the CSA paper seems to touch on is that there's basically going to be this it it says that there should be the development of like Vulnops, like a permanent organizational capacity modeled on DevOps that is all about constantly trying to get ahead of this all the time. And that's a huge resource investment and a just change in the way that a lot of companies are gonna have to operate. And I don't think that that's entirely feasible. But I mean, is that feasible for anything any one outside of the top fifty or a hundred. Yeah. I think Paris' point is really, really right . It's just a it's just an impact. It's not a not a guy b'ads fault, but it's but it' sometshing. The trend the trend is, by the way, that saw that these uh models are getting smarter and smarter at a very rapid clip, that they're getting cheaper and cheaper to run at a very rapid clip, or the the software that you run today at a certain cost will be cheaper in a ye ar. Then the frontier models will always get more expensive. But the software you run today will get cheaper in a yeah. Not necessarily. We'll talk about that a little later. Well, I mean, we even you've mentioned this. Jensen Wong has said uh that one of his chief goals is making the uh making these uh GPUs uh more efficient, right? Yeah, of course that's one of his chief goals. Is it practical or realistic in the next five years, absolutely. It is. You know why it is? Because we have to. The uh data center that's already built, you can't put more chips in it. The only way you're going to increase the investment is by is by him increasing the efficiency of it. And that that's why they're coming to him to do that. Anthropic uh says that the their most dangerous AI model, aka mythos , has fallen into the wrong hands. A Discord group has had access to Mythos for two weeks. Uh this actually comes from uh Bloomberg. Um And if a Discord group no offense to our Discord group, but if a Discord group was able to get access to mythos, who else has access to mythos? They got it through uh contractors. Yeah, I know. You know who else has access to be able to do this sort of thing. And that's why this C I think that's why this hair on fire report from the CSA and why so many CISOs, 250 signed on to it, is Well they also did it because because Anthropic was or whoever was- I'm sorry, not anthropic, but the client was sloppy because they went through the basic email structure or URL structure the way they from the prior leaks. Right. The unauthorized access highlights the challenges this is from Bloomberg Anthropic faces in fully preventing its most powerful and potentially dangerous technology from spreading. So it's kind of like nuclear proliferation Well it's also uh mythos couldn't protect mythos . Okay, well uh yeah I don't know what that means, but uh well if it's all powerful security aware thing and it's gonna be perfect software and there's gonna be no vulnerabilities. Well That's actually a great point. If Mythos is so good, why couldn't it protect its own Because Mythos is not being vulnerable? It's it's it wasn't mythos that was exploited. It wasn't mythos that was exploited. So mythos isn't like magically protecting everybody. If mythos is so good, then how could Mythos get Because it isn't everywhere? But it is being used in the circumstances . Who do you think you are? Jensen Juan with Patel? Well, it's just but you're asking a nonsense question. Mythos isn't sitting there protecting everybody and everything, going, well, don't touch me. I'm not saying that Mythos is there, uh, ready to karate chop anything, but Mythos has been deployed on the on all of Anthropics' current person had permission to access anthropic models . Okay. They gained access from a company from which they perform contract work . Um Bloomberg's not naming the company for security reasons. I'm not sure how Mythos was supposed to prevent this. Poor Mythos. We should have to be a good question . Okay. I'm going to move on. See, I thought I thought when you had Lucas on, I worked out Um do we want to somebody sick their own version of Mythos to figure out exactly how many minutes and seconds it was since Leo said he's not gonna tell Jeff and I that we're working on the first time. Well I didn't expect you to say so many stupid things. I'm sorry. Well, Jensen. I'm trying. If you would just not ask dumb questions, I wouldn't have to cut it. We dare we dare to criticize it. No, it's not a dumb question. It's just that mythos you you're assuming that somehow mythos is permeating everything that everybody's doing and is protecting itself from everybody. Is it? But if somebody has access to mythos and then gives that access to somebody else, there's no mythos in the middle. It's not sitting there going to be a big thing. That's not the core problem what happened. It wasn't a bug. It it is that the I think it's a bad it was a no no it wasn't a bug, it was bad policy. Mythos isn't there staying doing you have a bad policy, you can't do this. It's it's it's not a it wasn't available to to fix that problem. That an AI can't fix. If you, for instance, have don't, you know, this is why we always talk about zero trust. If you have a security policy that allows a cop former contractor access to your system, you're gonna have a problem . And I I mean I guess you could have the put this out to our ten contractors. Um I was hoping that when when you had Lucas on you wouldn't tell him what he was doing. I was hoping he was one of the guys who broke into mythos. I don't think those guys are going to talk to anybody. No, they're not. If I were them, I wouldn't. Uh look ing drafted into the army before you know it. Yeah. How do we do this well? I don't know if it I don't know if Mythos is one of the most impressive claims about it is supposed to be that it helps anticipate a wide range of potential security risks. And this could have been one of the many things it anticipated, which is that you failed. I guess it failed. I I don't know. I Darren Daranoki. Maybe Anthropic has n't run mythos on all of its policies. I'm not sure exactly what's going on there. Darinochi says rightly, it's about the attack surface, which varies. Yeah, I mean it it isn't a magical being that can prevent all attacks. I'm just saying it can fix bugs software. I don't I don't know about the rest of it. Yeah, it's it's just it's a very good model and it happens to have cybersecurity abilities, interestingly enough that it wasn't specifically trained in. Um let us take another break. We're gonna we're about fifteen minutes away from our guest, Ian Bogost. So Bogost . So I will uh practice his name. Did you get a pronunciation pronunciation guide? Claude told me it was Bog Oost. Bog Oost. Bog Claude could never be wrong about anything like pronunciation. It's clearly so f.ind out We'll find out. I know it's surprising. You wouldn't be good at pronunciation, but it is apparently. According to someone who has not checked and has not been confronted with the reality of the situation. Uh yes . Um somebody saying it's like if you le ft your password on a sticky note on the monitor, mythos can't help you. It can it it it has a domain that it works in, but it's not omnipotent. Aaron Powell I'm sorry, I just enjoyed the IRD . That's all. Yeah, well, I mean yes, Mythos is not gonna pro uh and actually this really was the point that you were making, uh which is that it isn't perfectly all security . No. Yeah, it's not gonna fix all security flaws. It's gonna fix all i but potentially software bugs could be elimin ated. I wasn't sure about it when I had to be unanticipated attack services cannot be. Because they're unanticipated. No, I no, that just means a human didn't anticipate it. If it's in the software, the presumably the AI could find it. But the AI is not gonna have anything to do with a post-it note on your screen with the password. It doesn't doesn't have that. That is not what happened here. But it's no something very analogous to that though. I don't think that's accurate. It's not through it was not through a C V E. Well that's what mythos fixes is CVEs. It was not through an exploit. It was through bad policy, like having a password on your monitor. Bad behavior. You see, I mean there is a difference. It can fix bugs in software. I don't know. I'm not an expert in mythos. I wish someday maybe they'll release it and we could talk to somebody at Anthropic about what mythos. Well we're also cr questioning the idea that even that software can be perfect. Yes. And I you know, I don't claim at all my expertise in that area. Steve, who I think is pretty sharp about this kind of stuff, believes it is perfectible. Uh he th he ships by the way, he says software without bugs. Uh because he's you know, works very hard to make it bug free. And uh and it but he says because it's math, uh the problem is humans are not very good at it. We don't we don't do a great job with it. Like hardware cannot be perfected. So there's always that service. That's true. Things like and somebody mentioned this in the Discord, things like Rowhammer, which is an exploit which allows you to see what's going on in a parallel process on a processor is a processor defect. And I don't th now mythos probably could be applied to microcode. And I wouldn't be surprised if it could say, hey, you know what , you've got a problem here with leakage uh in your um in your prediction pipeline. That I think Miss O'S probably could see . But you'd have to then know about it before you fabb the uh chip. And once it's in the chip, mythos can't fix it. But it couldn't like radiation. It's fixable in microcode. So you can't. Can't read anything about radiation or anything like that. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying I'm just saying the hardware. I'm just saying the hardware. It's like there's the the hardware can never that that can be fixed. Yeah. Okay. It is it's not a superman, not a superhero. And I don't think anthropics' claiming it to be omnipotent superhuman. No, and I didn't say they were. I was just saying that was a good idea. That is perfect, Leo . Okay. Right. Uh we will take a break. And then we will talk about Leo's blood pressure. No, I'm fine. We will talk about the crunch that is apparently happening uh with a lot of companies. Your your buddy Ed actually uh has a scoop on one of these. Uh we will talk about that in just a bit. You're watching Ineltligent machines as we try to figure out what is going on in the world of AI. It's not obvious. Brought to you today by Monarch. When the seasons change, it's natural to want to declutter and get organized. Monarch helps you do the same with your money goals. Let Monarch do your financial spring cleaning for you. One dashboard that gets your entire financial life organized. No more clutter, no more mess, no more scattered logins, just accounts, investments, property, and more all in one place. Get your first year of Monarch for half off, just fifty dollars with the promo code I am. I love Monarch because I can take a look at a single page and know exactly where I stand, what my net worth is, what my outgo is, what I make , which is a very small amount of money, but at least I know I love Monarch. It's not your average personal finance app. It's not a checkbook balancer. Most apps tell you what you already spent. Hmm. Monarch goes a lot farther. 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Everyone says, Yeah, that's mine, and you can settle up. You don't even need a calculator. Monarch does it all automatically from the receipt. Use the code IAM at monarch.com to get your first year half off, just 50 bucks. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with the code IM is best . Well, I was gonna say 50 bucks I ever spent, but actually I didn't have the code, so I spent 100 bucks and it's worth it. Monarch.com. I love it. Use the code I am. Um, all right, we're back, and guess who? Look who showed up our special guest. Uh Ian Bogost is here. Gosh darn it . Bogost is here. Did I get that right? Ian got right this time. Good to see you. Oh good to be here. I will say something. Uh Ian, you know this guy, Jeff. Somebody told me you know Jeff. I I want to well I have much to thank Ian for. Ian um uh I wrote a blurb for one of the object lessons books in the series that Ian uh co-edits . And um uh taking every opportunity I said, hey, you want a book from me? And so I ended up writing magazine. Magazine. Which I had great fun writing. Do you have it there? Always be selling. Always be selling. And uh and then I also said, I got this book about Gutenberg. You think anybody bloomsbury might want it? And he introduced me to Harris Nockvey, who's our mutual editor and publisher. And that's led to that and my next book, Hot Type and the book series uh intelligence. So I have much, much to thank Ian for a lot . Yeah. That's the thing. I was talking to Jeff before the show saying, I don't understand how Ian is so accomplished. He said he said he hates you because you can do so much. You make me feel like a loser. People ask me what I do and I my heart just falls out of my body and You're like, Do you have seven and a half minutes? He's contributing writer at the Atlantic and I and that's where I know you from. I read your stuff. I love it. Fantastic. Thank you so much. Uh is uh also a game designer. In fact, you might know the game he did a few fift about fifteen, sixteen years ago called CowClicker , that's right by Facebook, which was uh a parody. Uh it satirized the exploitation of Facebook and its g ames, but it became so big . You actually had to have a rapture. Yeah, I had to get rid of all the cows. How many cows did you murder? That's virtual cow question. lot of A cows. I I have never counted the number of cows. I wouldn't think of me as murdering them. You delivered them to cowheaven. That's right. Well they got raptured. I think they've got rapture. From the point of view of the cow, a good thing. Well, we don't know what sort of sins those cows committed. The cows were innocent. That I think. They were 100% raptured. Not one cow was left behind. So he's also professor in multi kind of multi multidisciplinary professor at Washington University in St. Louis, the Barbara and David Thomas Distinguished Professor, coexecutive director of the Office of Public Scholarship, Provost Fellow in Interdisciplinary Initiatives. This is too much, isn't it? He's also assistant vice provost, because you know well you you had a little free time, I guess. Founding partner at an indie game studio called Pervasive Games, which has consulted for 2K Games, Activision, Disney, Nintendo, Sony, the Tetris Company. And how many books has he had written? Eleven. According to Claude, Claude could be It's an odd number. I need to write a twelfth. And that's a very bad number. Well no, Leah, you've got a baker's dozen. That's a perfect number. Well the, good news is I only wrote like a couple. The rest were ghosted. Claude wrote. Claude wrote a couple of Voghost, yeah. Actually, the thing that really interests me most about uh Ian uh particularly is your notion that and I'm gonna miss state this so you can c kind of restate it, but friction is important to our humanity . Um you know what I I this this book, this new book, The Small Stuff, is about gratification. And like at this at the same time as I was working on the book, this idea of friction got really popular. Um you hear this a lot now. We need to reintroduce friction. Uh there was just a New Yorker story about this just a couple days ago. It was good. Um it was a good story, right? And I think what I'm saying is related but different because um to so to me this this idea of gratification it's all about the sensory enchantment of everyday life. It's about your your constant sensory encounters with the world and how you can derive you know, small amounts of little pleasures from them all the time. And that's a little different, isn't it, from friction. It's not about making it harder. In some ways it's about making it easier. So that's that's an interesting idea that I've been I've been thinking about since we you know, since since we started promoting the book and since I've started thinking about it in the context of today, have conversations about technology today where this idea of friction has suddenly become like quite popular. Well it's also germane to the topic of AI because one of the things AI seems to do is smooth all the edges, right? And AI pros in particular is . The ways that AI pushes me at least. I don't know that it does this generally. It's start I'm starting to see evidence that AI is pushing people back into the world rather than removing them from it. And what sense? Well here's an example that just happened to me this week. So uh it's the springtime. Uh thank gosh. I mean golly it's like been so cold all all winter and finally spring and I need to water my lawn 'cause it's spring again. And I live in a place where it freezes, so you have to turn on the irrigation system. And uh there's like a leak in my backflow, my irrigation backflow, which is something we don't need to talk about today. But it's the it's a thing that that you have to have in your irrig ation system. And so I talked to I talked to AI and I'm like, help me help me figure out how to fix this, right? So in that sense I'm not generating text, you know, I'm uh AI is f is pushing me back out into the world where I'm taking on these really material tasks that I may not have I might not have done otherwise. So it's it's c I think it's complicated. I think the smoothing over is happening for sure. But there's also this like these kind of rough edges that AI is is revealing, including for me really, like inviting me to engage with the physical world in ways that I might not have chosen to previously Is there is there a linkage to the fact that you edit the book series called Object Lessons? Well, certainly when we so Object Lessons, which is this delightful book series, we've done about a hundred books with Bloomsbury , and uh they're all about the the secret life of ordinary things is is the tagline. We've done so many books, Taco and Phone Booth and Jeff Did Magazine and uh and so I've been interested in things for a very long time. Oinrdary things, toasters and stuff. You know, that's just an obsession of mine for forever. And people sometimes sneer at you when you think when they find out that you're interested in toasters they're like, why? Like that's not important . And one of the things that Object Lessons was meant to do was to say yes it is that it is important to to to to tell those stories. Uh and then we tried to make the books themselves. Jeff held one up at the start, like really del delightightful, ful objects. They've got French flaps, and you know, we do pantom printing on them, and they're the covering delightful trim side. Wonderful. So I do think it's related, you know, that this is a project. This is a long-standing project for me that really touches a lot of things that I've done over the years, even if I didn't realize at the time how they were contributing to this kind of discovery of gratification as a as a topic of interest. It's a very academic thing to do, to abstract those those common things in life and ask what else is there about this? And and to learn lessons from that. And I and I and I I haven't read your book yet, but I'm suspecting that there's a through line to that. There is the the through line. I mean for me personally, um you know you asked like what what what's the story with all these things that you 've done? Um and as a game designer, you know, I was always thinking about the games are absurd. Games are ridiculous. And there's no purpose to them. There's no reason to play Candy Crush. Um or even Scrabble. Uh but we do it and we enjoy it. And that's Unless Paris is playing against me and then I don't enjoy it at all 'cause that's where the spectrum. She smashes something. You could even enjoy being, you know, like like whooped, right? Defeated at a at a game. There's something about it that like that's part of the deal is is the the the pain and suffering of playing. And so I've I've uh one of the things that it was just always always eating at me when I was writing about games, making games, studying games, teaching about games. It was like why why is this miserable, weird, useless, purposeless thing so compelling? And one reason I think it's compelling is because games invite us to engage with something that doesn't matter, that that doesn't need to exist, that almost shouldn't, that's pure excess . And if you if you look at the world, it's full of all that kind of stuff too. That you know, like I I can I can feel the the the smoothness. I have this walnut desk in front of me and I can feel the the smoothness of the wood under my hands. And sometimes I just I just do that. And that's gratification . That's that's delight. That's sensory delight. It doesn't do anything for me. But if I if I didn't do that, if I didn't accept the gift of that sensory encounter, would my life be better? No, it it wouldn't. I would be missing out on that little moment that's free. And so it may not seem that that has anything to do with games, but I really did come to some of those observations through you know my experience with games and then later, you know, with with the philosophy of objects in the way that that that Jeff uh kinda hinted at. AI deobjectifies things. Everything is an abstraction in AI. AI is complicated. I think what AI is doing is is giving us a very easy to use window into answers or simulated answers to lots of questions, which means that we ask a lot more questions. And that's qualitatively different than Google, I think. Um partly because it's quantitatively different. It happens faster, but that makes it qualitatively different. Like like the story I told about the irrigation fix , like why wouldn't I have done that just by going to YouTube or Reddit . And the answer is pretty clear, isn't it? It's because I wouldn't have been able to find the answer on YouTube. I would have like stumbled into some some channel that had a bunch of ads and pre-roll and I would have had to find the part of the video where it was correct and or I would have had to wade through all the arguments on Reddit about someone had already asked and answered this question eight years ago. And and the AI just tells you it's like, oh, you know, I can take a picture of this apparatus and it's like, okay, here's what you do. And you know, it's not always right. And I know that people worry about that, and I worry about it too, but it's often right. And in my case, in this example, it was right and it and it helped me not just fix something in my life, but engage physically with a part of the world, a part of my home that I had never touched, not really. Um and that is I think that's kind of magical and it's a different story than the one that I've heard told about AI . You uh famously said you were glad that AI ingested your books. I did, yeah. Yeah. Someone noticed this, I guess. I was wondering if anyone had noticed that I wrote that. I agree with it. What was your argument for it? When you make something as a creator, it it is no longer yours. It lives in the world. Isn't that what all of us want? You write a book or you make a piece of art and you want it to um to travel. It's no longer connected to my intention and what I might do with it. And and anyone can consume it and they can misinterpret it, or they can reinterpret it, or they can throw it away, or they can crumple it up, or whatever it is that they do with it, that is that is what it means to be a creative person and to disseminate work in the world. And I'm disturbed in a way by this idea that And yes, I realized that AI uh I mean it was like stealing the the the the books um like the digital files for the books. That's like a slightly different topic than a computer reading them. Who would have ever thought when I wrote you know these books twenty years ago that someday a computer would read and understand them and make new sense of them? Oh my God. That isn't that is certainly something that I don't wanna I don't wanna squelch. I don't wanna say, well, you know, that's not what I meant when I wrote the book because we don't get to mean how our work is interpreted. It's another form of dissemination. It's another way to give your what you're giving. Readers are the ones who give books meaning, and it's another way to give meaning. And the funny thing about this is this idea of dissemination, this idea that when you make something, it enters the world and it is no longer yours. This is like, you know, fifty, sixty years old in in literary criticism and philosophy. This is not a new concept. But somehow we kind of forgot about it. I think the internet made people um it made people feel as though they they had more control and they deserved more control than they ever did before. And now it suddenly seemed like you could talk to celebrities or you could you could repost when someoneed misinterpret you or you perceived that they did. And every article I write, now I have to deal with people responding to it online and thinking that I should engage in conversation with them about it. It it kind of changed our our worldvie w about how work enters the world. In uh 2022, you wrote a a a great piece called, which I remember vividly, ChatGPT is dumber than you think . And basically you said it's a to y. Yeah. Uh not a tool, but a toy. Yeah. Now here we are four years later. Things have changed a little bit. Yeah. I mean it was always going to become a tool because that's the the thing that we make when we make computer systems, but it's also a toy. And and what I mean by a toy is like it's something you just do for its own sake, you know? Like you manipulate it and you mess around with it. Um it's an entertainment vehicle too. Like sometimes I'll just have Chat GPT like you know, write me heart crane poems about Diet Coke or or whatever. Like what's the point of that? It's not in order that I can have the heart crane poem, it's in order that I can kind of explore two things that I love, uh, that poet and diet coke in a different way. Um and like I I think that that persists as a use of AI. That that usage still per still persists. And sometimes I'll just I'll just kinda hang out with one of these one of these machines and spend a little time with it, not personifying it, but but just exploring it in the same way that I would have, you know, click through Wikipedia articles or in the same way that I would, you know, like hold a uh I have a I have a rub I have a Rubik's cube uh over here. Like, you know, the when when you play with this thing sometimes it's just about holding it in your hands and kind of feeling what it's like for the solve it. Oh I I can't solve it. can't solve it either. That's an interesting point. Uh uh it's a game that you can't solve, but it's still pleasant. Right. And some of the things that we love about games and toys and objects is is not that they're useful, but that uh they can be manipulated. I I don't mean manipulated like like used uh uh in in indiscriminate ways. I mean like just physically touched. That's the game. Is playing that's what playing is. That's right. Yeah. Ian, I'm I'm eager to hear your thoughts on AI and education. Not the obvious, not the everybody has blue books. Right. But the but calling on what you said earlier about the machine reading your books, you now have a machine that not only speaks our language, but it supposedly learns. Right. And does this what does this does this affect at a high level, does it does this affect your view, your perspective on learning generally, and then because of everything you do in education, I'm curious uh about your view of education in the class AI in the classroom. Yeah, you're on the front lines. And I've written about this extensively and and you know I've tried my best in my writing on an AI and education and I've focused on higher education because that's where I live. Um I've tried to to give everyone voice, you know, the students, the faculty, the administrators, the AI companies, uh, even and I feel like it's complicated. These things are here and and we can't deny that, and what is it what does it mean? In terms of learning, I I do think that this this ability like think think about the the irrigation story like this ability that I have to try something out like relatively easily, fairly consequence free, uh this is related to a concept in the learning sciences uh of which I'm not an expert, but I do know and I've loved this concept for many years called performance before competence. Have you ever heard of this? The idea is uh it's it's generally good for learning if you get kind of thrown into the deep end. You don't quite know what you're doing, and instead of ratcheting up from the basics, or at least all the time, um by pretending that you're an expert by you know really kind of jumping in with both feet you can learn in a in a different way and you know some kind some kinds of learning you want like skill and drill basics sometimes you want to learn fundamentals and build up, you need to learn color theory or something before you can paint. And then in other cases, especially complex situations, performance uh is performance before competence really works. So you get you get a new job and you don't really know what you're doing and you kinda figure it out by being in the environment of work and talking to people and and then you work it out like relatively quickly partly because you have to and partly because you're fully embodied in that situation. And AI seems like particular ly potentially good at this. I don't know that it's actually good at this. Um it's very, very, very good at it for computer programming, which is something that interests me. Uh I don't know if it's so great at for, you know, like writing uh argumentative essays . But I think it has a lot of potential and I also think it rubs against the the standard practices we've used in classrooms for a long time, which are not like that. We we don't really trust the students to learn in that way, and we haven't set up the learning environment for them to learn in that way most of the time. That said, I worry about it's so easy. It's so easy and so tempting when you have a problem solving machine like this, just to have it solve problems. And what I see among the students , they are they are pulled in so many directions. They're they're they're full of anxiety. They are facing a a difficult and a difficult job market that be seems to be becoming ever more difficult. They have spent their whole lives uh worrying about performance and trying to get to the next thing in order that they can then get to the next thing and they don't even know why they're doing things sometimes. And so they're like wired to just accomplish and they don't even know why they're accomplishing things sometimes. And so you put AI in front of them and what do you expect to happen? It's like, well the moment I need a release valve, there it is, and it will give you the answer. I I I teach this class. I we just had the last meeting just this afternoon. I teach this class on Atari twenty six hundred programming where we make Atari game sixty Fit two years ago when I was teaching this class. Oh yeah, sprites and you know I mean it's it's a really challenging machine to program. Um you have to write it all in six five oh two assembly and it uh doesn't have any video RAM and it's a bit it's very, very weird. Uh and I love it and I love the thing. I've been d teaching and writing about it and making games for it for a long time. Oh man, I wish I had classes like that. Yeah, no, it's I mean, I can't believe I get to do this. Uh so a couple of years ago, you know, when AI started, I was like, look, guys, like you can't use the adapter, the Atari. Like, trust me, it just it's just gonna and now you you kinda can. You kinda can. Okay. Really? You kinda can't. There's enough 6502 code out there. It under it understands it well enough. Now it doesn't mean that the students understand what they're doing and if they want to go in and modify something it's a very tightly, you know, wound up system and the time. Yeah, you only have sixteen K, you've got Yeah, it's very four K. We've got four K ROMs, a hundred twenty eight bytes of RAM. And um anyway, so I have some students, you know, this even this term, and you know, they they would submit code and I'd be like, I know that they wrote this with AI. It's totally different than the code that I was showing them. And when I talk to them about it, you know , um, they're trying to solve the problem of their lives. They're like Well look, I've got a million other things going on. I was trying to get a handle on how to do this. I thought I'd ask it and it was giving me the answers. They they're not cheating. I mean they are cheating, but it it that's not the way that they perceive it, and it's not the way that I perceive it either. It's it's rather that the whole world has been wound so tight in this this watch spring like way that what are you going to do? And I think that is the thing I think about most with education. Where do you learn these when you have to learn fundamentals , how do we guarantee that it happens ? Um when it's so easy to short shortcut or short circuit the process. Being uh well the analogy you used of a playground, which is a series of rules that a kid can go into and because of the rules can be free. Yeah. This is the weirdest thing about games and play. There's this par adox that the way that play becomes more interesting is becoming by becoming more constricted rather than less so . So you think, you know, play sounds like do anything you want. It's freedom. Go out and play. But that's that's not right. That's not fun. Yeah. What you need and and if you watch children who are better at everything than adults are, if you watch children negotiate play, they do this instantly, you know? They're like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. You can't go you can only walk three steps in this direction, right? You can't go past the the the line of the door. Uh if you sneeze, you're out. Whatever it is. They're always, you know, assigning these new constraints on the system . And broadly speaking, in your life, if you're missing meaning or if you know if something feels like it's just no good anymore, uh, and you want to get out, oh it's just like, oh, if I could just escape from this, then I would finally be free and happy aga Maybe that's what this book is all about, is uh recovering that sense that childlike sense. It's very Zen. There is a there is a yeah, there is a child. I mean there is there's some lessons from from children in it. Yeah. Um I think that kids are curious. Okay. Children have not encountered things before. Right. Like the reason a baby will put stuff into its mouth is because it wants to sense it. And that's there's like so much sensation in your mouth. Uh and you know if you think about what makes like a three-year-old really irritating, it's that they're always asking questions. And it's because they don't know anything. They don't know what anything is. And they're like, what is this thing? There's a telephone pole here. What's that about? What's a telephone pole? Uh and if you think about that curiosity and that openness, we we we lose it over time or we you know we we our lives get busy but also we have to tune out the noise or we'll go crazy. And part of what I'm interested in in this book is um letting back in the stuff that we shut out . I guess that's what object lessons was about too. I just love the idea of a hundred and eleven books about not just magazines, remote controls, golf balls, drones, driver's licenses. Driver's license. Was there any one that really supports you? Oh, so many of them have surprised us. You know, when we um silence, the one that's on the screen right there, uh by just an amazing writer friend, uh John Biganay, people were like, You can't do a an object lessons book on silence. Silence isn't object. And I was like, well, yeah, who says? Like I all I mean by object is like a an entity in the world. You know, I just mean like a noun. A noun. Yeah. And you know, it's funny the way that that rubs people the wrong way. So that was one that was surprising. Uh that was w and we've learned a lot about books. You know, like the like it turns out that golfers spend a lot of money on on golfing, but not a lot of money on books. Or it's baseball. Baseball.' Thelly spend money on books. So that was interesting. It didn't have anything to do with the objects, but that was something that's a good thing I want to buy all of . It's so much fun to write too, because you you look at something differently. It's it's focusing very holding the skull. There is this uh this concept in philosophy, uh the T S D question. It's from Greek, it means what is it? Uh T S D is. What is it? What its nature? And it's the it's the first question that you ask when you're thinking about existence or something existing. And you can kind of live your whole life in that question about anything. You could spend the whole rest of your life asking, what is a phone booth actually? And you would be happy with that life, I think. Because there's so much to learn and to observe about everything in the world. And this attitude of mine, I mean, it's really been one that I've culti vated. I w I just want to share it. I feel I feel so compelled to share it because I I'm not perfect and I haven't figured it all out. But I feel like this attitude has been so helpful to me. And it's it's so different from the attitude of big stuff happiness thinking, which is like, I have to accomplish more. My life needs, I have to have more wealth. My relationships have to be this way instead of that way. Whereas I'm gonna just allow the crunch of the twig under my foot or the sensation of the hot mug in my hands, just I'm gonna accept that. I'm gonna let that happen to me right now and accept it. And then I'm gonna move on to the next thing. That's such a different way um uh perspective that's represented here and in a couple of my books now I've I've kind of taken the the Western adoption of of kind of Buddhist style you know Zen mindfulness to task because I think that mostly what it's done is giving people a it's like I need to take a break from achieving so that I can recharge so I can achieve. Achieve more. Yeah. And that's that's not what the Buddhist meant all, you know, that's all about letting go . Um and so in in the in the in the small stuff book, you know, one of the things that um we we had uh I did this this podcast at The Atlantic and we had Oliver Berkman on and uh Tell tell us about it. Yeah. And yeah, you know, we and he says um he he said on this on this show of ours, he was like I find it you know, like like getting back to the senses is one way that you can just kinda live your life in the moment. But I find th I find it really hard to get in this mindset. He said something like that. And that really c aught me dead in my tracks because I was like, Well what do you mean? Like you don't have to have a mindset for experiencing your senses at all. I'm not talking about your mind. I'm talking about your body. I'm talking about your fingertips and your nose. And it's it's just amazing to me that in the West, especially we've tied ourselves in these knots where we feel like we we can't, we we won't accept that we can just sense things. We can just feel and see and smell and be in the world that somehow we have to practice that, that's kind of bananas actually, isn't it? And if you let go of that idea and you just let it happen to you, then the whole the whole universe unlocks and every moment is available to you as this kind of easy opportunity for for this this sensory enchantment, this thing I call gratification. Do you have a related view on the um the move by some folks, Jan Lakuna and company, toward world models, trying to trying to imagine AI to have that experience of the world like a toddler experiencing it and understand learning from it or a cat. Yeah. I mean I I the thing that I think about the most in this in this topic is like what is the difference between being embodied and not being embodied. Okay . And you know, as I've become so interested in embodied experience and as AI has been on the rise and AI is fundamentally disembodied, and like let's set aside our matrix conspiracy theories, right? Um like you might you might say to me, well, bogus, like maybe we live in a simulation anyway, and you're not embodied. You're just it's just a simulation of embodiment. But I feel like I'm embodied, and that's enough for me for now. You know, what's the difference between understanding something by having read everything on the internet and being able to predict what word comes next and give me information about how to engage with that world and feeling it for real . And maybe that is helpful because we can 't we have it both ways? You know, we could we could do the world modeling thing and have a sim I think it's like I have all this experience with simulations, right? And back in the day when I started working on simul ations, I did a lot of stuff for like, you know, science and politics and and and and and education and corporate learning and uh and in the world of of simulations um we always knew that they were represent ations. And then somehow we stopped. We started thinking, no, they're not. They're just the world. The world and the representation of the world are indistinguishable, which is very odd to me. So even a world model in this advanced Jan Lakun kind of way is still a representation um of the of the world. And if if we can agree on that, then I'm totally on board. And what that gives us is that gives us this incredible distance between what the AI knows and can do and what we as human beings know and can do. And yeah, you can wire it up to a robot and you can do all that kind of stuff, but it will still be a differently embodied entity. It won't be you or me and the thing that we share as human beings in the world, which should give us comfort, I think. Ian Bogos Bogost , his book is the small stuff. It'll be out in July. You can pre-order it now from a uh var aiety of places if you go to the website. Uh are you doing the audio book, Ian? So this is under discussion. I I want to do it because um I have a chapter in the in the in the book about ASMR. Yeah you sound you could do ASMR. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've been we've been debating this back and forth. Like currently the plan is that there there is an audiobook and we have a professional and uh and I'm I'm still like a little bit jealous, you know, I really kind of want I want to speak the words, but I also would love it, I'd love to share that experience. But like I there will be an audiobook no matter and you'll be able to I I should know this and I don't. Did you record early your audiobooks? No, no, I didn't. I have never recorded a book. I have a previous life as I had a I had a small publishing company many years ago, and so I've overseen audiobook production, but I've never recorded one. Uh it's a lot of work. I know this is a lot of things torture. It's an exquisite torture. No, it's it's I know how I've been on the other side of the board. Um in the studio with it. Oh, you definitely should do it. Well I'm uh I'm glad to have point. Yeah. The small stuff how to lead a more gratifying life read by Ian Mar cos, I think would be a best sell er. I would listen to it all the time. You got disconnected from the physical world, but you can reclaim the sensory enchantment of everyday life. I guess there is a thread uh leading through a lot of your uh your work. There really is. People ask me all the time. They're like, How did you get from, you know, where you started to where you are? And it's like, Well, uh one day at a time. Uh I think the difference between me and and some people is that uh, this is gonna sound haughty. I don't mean it too. Like I've really learned from the things I've been I've had the opportunity to do and I've changed my mind a lot . And so I am on this random walk through life, taking those lessons and trying to find new things to describe and tell people about. Um and I'm just so grateful to have had that opportunity. Yeah. We're grateful . Ian and I hope you come back when the book comes out. Good. Absolutely. We would love that. Uh and meanwhile everybody uh read Ian's writing in the Atlantic. Uh get his books. I have I want to get all of these object lessons books. These are so cool. It's such a great idea. Um to honor these individual . They're a little addictive. A hundred books on the shelf. Yeah, they look great. I might. There's even one about the bookshelf. There is one about the bookshelf. So it's kind of a meta a meta experience. We got one about the book. Or the cigarette liners. Like they're all very particular. Right. Neat. What a great idea. Thank you for your time, Ian. Thank you. Thank you for everything on the video. Thank you. Have a great day. All right. Take care. We will have more with intelligent machines. But now no more fighting. Just peace. Oh no, I'm gonna bring up Jan Lacone in a few minutes. We're gonna we're gonna we're gonna We'll always be fighting. I was waiting for Ian to just destroy you on that. But okay. Nope. Nope. Couldn't get him to do it. You tried. Thank you, Ian. You can hang up now. He's looking for the button. I can see him. I know there's a button here to get rid of it. We'll have more intelligent machines in just a bit with Paris and Jeff. This episode brought to you by OutSystems , the number one AI development platform. Out Systems helps businesses bridge the enterprise gap to their agentic future. You've been looking for this, haven't you? Where the constraints of the past give way to unlimited capacity and scale . Out systems enables companies to build AI agents that can actually do work, such as take actions, make decisions, and integrate with data rather than just, you know, answering questions. Out system provides the only AI development platform that's unified, agile, and enterprise proven. It's unified because you can build, run, and govern apps and agents in a single platform. It's agile because you can innovate at the speed of AI, but without compromising quality or control. And it is enterprise-proof and trusted by enterprises for mission-critical AI applications and durable innovation. 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We thank him so much for supporting uh the enterprise sorry the intelligent machine programme I was boy he's great I uh why haven't you pushed to get him on uh before, Jeff? This is muted. I put him on the list sometime. I think I think well I'm glad we're fine again. He's brilliant. He's just amazing. Yeah. Uh Barbara and David Thomas, distinguished professor at Washington Univers ity in St. Louis, contributing right here at the Atlantic. Isn't it ? It's very peaceful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean yeah, if he just wanted to record a version of him uh reading every single one of the object lesson books, people all around the world would be falling asleep to that in a complilimentaryment wayary. In a comp way. Very good. Yes. In an enjoyable way with a smile on the face. Yes. So we have so much news. I don't know exactly what to do here. There's no way we I knew it we wouldn't get through it all, but I'm really now we've only gotten through one segment . Two interviews in one segment. I guess one of the stories uh and we can can kind of take a bunch of data points and s and and squeeze it down to the story, which is I think compute has become uh really a precious resource. Has become it was always we just weren't aware of it. Yeah.'re just We weren con uh as it wasn't as top of mind, but it's always been a precious reason. It was like VC money in the audience back in the inner. I was gonna say it's we're now getting to a point where these companies are realizing that they have to be more explicit with their efforts to ration it. Yes. As consumers are using more and more of it. Aaron Powell Well that's why it wasn't constrained until now because consumers weren't using as much, but they've wrapped up very, very, very rapidly. And uh data centers can't be billed fast enough. Um, Anthropic has now decided that they're no longer now Ed Ed had this uh Ed Zitron had this uh scoop uh going to allow you to use Claude code, not only from the free Claude, but from the twenty dollar a month pro subscription, you have to be a max subscriber. That's not exactly they uh anthropic uh what happened was a lot of people on Reddit and Twitter uh over the weekend um or maybe it was Monday and noticed that Claude code was removed from the $20 a month pro plan on some of the pricing pages on the Claude website. And people started asking around, being like, well, I could still see it and use it on my pro subscription. What's going on? Uh Anthropics Head of Growth, Amal Avaz ar, uh claimed that it was a quote, small test of two percent of new prosumer signu ps. However, Ed and um some other Claude users view that savings suspicion because they were wondering why support documents were changed and other things like that. But that has since been reversed. Okay. I mean, it's interesting because the immediate response from uh A OpenAI was to say, oh and guess what? You can use codecs in the free program , so have at it. I th you know, I think the theory is this was a come on, always was a it was always subsidized. It was a come on to get people to try it, but ultimately they really want you to move not just to the max plans, because I think they still lose been saying this too, that you they still lose money in the max plans. The max plans were designed to get your data in for training and that they really want you to start using their API tokens where you pay as you go. And in fact now they are saying to enterprises, that's the only way you can use us. You have to pay for tokens pay as you go. Which I don't it's not demonstrated that they lose money on that, by the way. Um I think no it similarly there's n absolutely no evidence that they don't lose money on it and all, you know anecdotal understanding of how much these sort of things cost suggests otherwise. Like if if Anthropic was making money on any of its subscriptions, I'd hope that it'd be shouting that from the rooftops because it'd be an extraordinarily rare and unique thing that they'd be using to raise money on. Important context here is that during all of this, Amal uh FSR, the head of growth, tweeted, when we launched Max a year ago, it didn't include Claud Code, cowork didn't exist, and agents that run for hours weren't a thing. Right. Max was designed for heavy chat usage. That's it. And I think this kind of goes up against what we're all talking about. The way that users are using Anthropic's monthly subscription products is very has really changed rapidly over the last couple of years as more and more companies and more and more people are becoming Claude Code power users and using an immense amount of resources for twenty dollars or a hundred something dollars a month. You also have to get to the point of rationalizing the business. Uh inexpensively. And it was marketing dollars. And in a sense, usage is marketing. It convinced people this is valuable, they spread it, um it was an investment, but at some point it's not rationalized on a P and L basis. Microsoft doing something similar. GitHub has stopped accepting new co-pilot individual subscriptions uh because they are having trouble uh meeting their service commitments. Um and so no new subscriptions at all. They've also changed the uh they've adjusted the uh usage limits as has anthropic. I think this is a general problem going on . Turning away customers is not a great business strategy. Well yeah, I get it. But worse strategy would be to take customers you cannot serve. Yes. And I think that that's what they're up against. And that's why I say it's it's uh it's uh not a financial crunch, it's a it's a it's a capacity crunch. And it's going to be an issue. It absolutely is going to be an issue. Although Michael Dell has something interesting to say about this, he says the demand for tokens is proof that we are not going to have an AI bubble, that there is demand for this, that it the businesses have accepted that it is uh valuable and something they want . The demand for tokens is in excess of the supply by a lot, he said , this was at the uh Semaphore World Economy Summit yesterday. It would hard for be hard for there to be a bubble right now just because there's not enough supply. At this price point, we'll see when you get to Paris's point, if you get to the real cost , will that continue to be called? I don't think we know what the real cost is. So Yeah, that's the underlying argument. Well there we've had a lot of there's been no evidence that none of these large AI companies have reported m making a profit on any aspect of their business because of the compute costs. Well they're not public particularly. So they don't report. First of all, second of all they're not going to be sorry in conversation as well as Okay, but you don't know what the costs are because remember they're also Are you genuinely arguing that you think that it's pro that Claude selling access to Claude code is profitable at twenty dollars a month? What about a hundred? What about it's not either of those. It's at it the token cost is considerably higher. Most enterprises are playing tens of thousands of dollars, but you're asserting that that's losing the money as well, and I'm not saying that may not be. That's why they're moving people to the so I mean we may. I just don't think we know. And because they're not public companies, we don't have that information. Plus the costs uh that they face are more than providing inference. The costs are buying all those GPUs and building data centers and so forth. Suddenly with copyright suits. Yeah. Suddenly that's not an insignificant cost either. Anthropic is doing something interesting uh uh with regards uh to Amazon. Uh they are expanding their partnership with Amazon. They're setting up five gigawatts of new compute. Five gigawatts is pretty significant. That's uh that's a couple, probably a couple of data centers. Um and Amazon is committed to a further investment of up to twenty five billion dollars in Anthropic, but Anthropic's saying, and yeah, in return we're gonna buy a hundred billion dollars worth of AWS . So uh I think that's that's kind of interesting. That's building on the eight billion Amazon's already invested. So they put five billion in today, an additional twenty billion in the future, and they've already put an eight billion. So I listened to the um uh now infamous interview with Patel uh Dwarhesh Patel with uh Jason Wong, because I am a student of Jason Wong and listen to all of his performances. I think Dwarkesh actually did a very good job. And I I know uh you think that Jensen was prickly. No, I don't think he said that he enjoyed it. And I think that uh I think Dorkish um didn't say , but I think that Jensen in the end I think won the day. Yes. The most interesting one Jensen said, and I thought this was really interesting, and I'm not sure how I feel about it, is it is foolish to hold back chips from China. Now obviously NVIDIA would love to sell every one of its chips if it had actually. I don't know if NVIDIA needs to sell any more chips. I think they're sold out. And and I think this was his point, which I think is a very good point, that if you if you create a supply constraint to China, they're going to invent their own way and it's not going to end up being a univers al capability. It's going to be restricted to China and it's going to hurt America. It's going to hurt enterprise because China will have its own better way. The best thing is for us to follow. So it's a little self serving because CUDA is his and is proprietary, his chips are his and proprietary. But at the same time it makes an interesting point. Paris was saying earlier is that what what uh what um NVIDIA has to do to prove its value to its customers here in in finite data centers with finite gigawatts of power is that they've got to constantly increase the value you get for that power . He said in China, they have unlimited power. They control it all, they can do it all. And so they don't need the top chips, they don't need that level of efficiency, and they can compete with the US. And he said, why would we give up this huge market? Right. The other thing I didn't I didn't uh get, uh and and it's just a bit of history that you probably know that I don't, he was uh Dorkers was asking him about the early days of anthrop ic and And how Nvidia would have done more with them but couldn't at the time. Did you understand that part at all? No. Okay, never mind. Um but I thought it was a very interesting interview. It was very interesting to see the debate squad uh Jensen Wong. I I think he's a brilliant communicator. I think it's a brilliant presenter. I think he did very well. Yeah. I think he's a great debater too. Yeah. Yeah. Um and and it's and it's just fascinating to watch him in operation. uh throwers. And so these guys and I I I know that CEOs like softballs, but I think Jensen's one of those guys who might prefer every once in a while a something a little juicy to across the case. Well we kinda heard that from Stephen Witt who wrote the book on Jensen Wong here on the podcast. Yeah, he's combative.. Yeah Yeah. Yeah. SpaceX has struck a deal. This is a wild deal talking about deals with Cursor, saying we'll either buy you for sixty billion. Cursor is a a very popular vibe coding platform. It's kind of an IDE. Plus, as we found out recently, Claude Code in the background a little cursor doesn't admit that. Uh sixty billion or if we don't buy you ten billion for working together. Uh not sure what's going on there. A lot of these AI deals two of two of interesting. Two cursor uh people left for for X , which explains the bridge to this. But I wonder why given the if y OpenAI's been out there buying stuff, others been buying stuff, if your cursor is Musk where you want is that the best place to put your chips? Yeah, how did this deal go? This is per personally opinion. I think Cursor is in tr is really laggard . They don't have their own models. It's just a harness. Uh all both It's the perplexity of vibe coding? Yeah. OpenAI and uh Anthropic have their harnesses. There are many, many open source third-party harnesses like OpenCord and Core and and I just think cursor is rapidly losing its mode or has no mode at all. And so I'd take the money and run if I were them. Personally, and I wouldn't care who's giving it to me. I remember when that old company long ago that uh had the uh the screensaver was an information, I can't remember the name of it. Uh when you when your machine went to a screensaver, this very early internet, and Rupert Murdoch offered them four hundred million dollars. Yeah. No, no, no. We're far more valuable than that. Yeah. No, you always take the money and run. Yeah . If there's any lesson we've learned from the internet era, take the money and run. Google right now is doing its uh next conference and man were there a lot of announcements out of uh Google. I don't know if we want to call cover all of them, but one of the biggest is the eighth generation. Changelog. Changelog . It's the Google changelog. Do we have that still? I don't know. Those graphics are long gone. Long gone. Really? Oh sorry. Thank God. Google has announced its eighth generation of TPUs . These are the uh chips Google makes in com in competition with uh NVIDIA's. How do they compare in terms of officers? I think a lot of people use them. In fact, I think that's what Amazon's using. I may be wrong on that. Well I think they all have to use all of them because because again CUDA is a shortage. You can't I mean Google doesn't Google Google's hosting offers Nvidia chips in CUDA does have to. Oh, I don't know. Uh yeah may,be they do but have some. So the CloudNext introducing the eighth generation of their custom tensor processor unit. Um I'm not expert enough to know. I mean, I think generally the consensus is that the NVIDIA chips are superior, partly because they own CUDA, right? Uh there's a certain advantage there. Um but I don't think uh I don't I would think it'd be premature to write Google off on any of And Google just uh we think uh rumored did a deal with Marvel to produce more chips. Right. And I think more inference chips. I think training chips and inference chips. This is what Dell is saying, I think, is that there is such demand that it you know if it's a bubble, uh we're not at the end of it by any means. Uh also to answer the um efficiency question. Th TeseP Us are designed to be much more efficient. The seventh generation TPUs were two to four times faster and 30% lower. I'm sorry, the eighth generation are two to four times faster and thirty percent lower. And this is unclear. Then the the seventh are better than the sixth, and I guess the eighth are even better than the other. Yeah, but but they're going for efficiency, in other words. Uh the metric. Okay. And this single TPU superpod has 9600 chips, two petabytes of shared high bandwidth meta memory. Wonder where they're getting the memory chips. Uh with double the interchip bandwidth of the previous generation. A hundred twenty one exaflops of compute. So these are very powerful machines . It's funny how CUDA really has become a moat for uh NVIDIA, the software, not the hardware. Uh they announced a gen ini uh enterprise agent platform, a developer tool built on vertex . They uh said uh maybe this is interesting. 75% , this is uh Sundar Prachai talking, 75% of the company's new code is AI generated . Um Um I wonder though if they're using Claude or if they're using Gemini. Right. Where they're like, yeah, actually all of our code has been generated and it's a real problem. That it's a problem with engineering because uh DeepMind has access to uh Claude and and and uses Claude, the competitor , and everybody else at Google is forced to use Gemini. And Yegi says it's been a real problem in engineering at Google. Google is at great pains to deny it. When I asked Christina Warren, who used to work at DeepMind, she's now one of the hosts on um MacBreak Weekly. She said, No, that's not been my experience. That's not act, that's not accurate. But Yeggy says, Oh no, I'm hearing from a lot of people at Google who's very distraught that they're forced to use Gemini. And in fact, Google, he says, tried to take Claude away from DeepMind. And DeepMind said, you take it away from us, we're walking. We're out of here . Uh let's see. I'm running through these really quickly trying to get at least some of these big stories YouTube is making its deep fake detection tool to anyone at high risk of having their likeness abused, not just public officials and politicians. Yeah. Uh there are a bunch of new models. Uh we kind of hinted at this. There's clawed design and this is the change lock. Yeah, this is the change log. Clawed design from anthropic labs is a design tool aimed straight at the heart of Figma. ChatGPT has announced images 2.0. Everybody's using images. They say they can even pull information from the web to create your images. Salesforce has launched Headless 360 to turn its entire platform, all that business information, into infrastructure for AI agents. They're running a bit scared, I think. Two big new Chinese models, Alibaba's Quen 3.6 uh agentic coating power. It's open weight. But you need a pretty hefty machine to run it. I can't run it on my framework, that's for sure. Uh you need probably a a uh few fifty nineties at least. Is there a is there a system requirement? Is there a system requirement doc ? Uh probably. It uh you know, when I was looking around to see if I could run it, uh I asked Claude, can I run it and it it laughed at me. It said no. Uh but it is a fully open source. You don't have enough RAM, man. I have 128 gigs. It's not enough, man. Uh fully open source MOE model mixture of experts, which does mean it can be smaller because uh uh all the models aren't the all of the model isn't running at the same time. Uh Alibaba is saying exceptional agentic coding capability competitive with much larger models, strong multimodal perception and reasoning ability. But you can run this on other places. You know, Olama has a subscription, there are a number of places, open code subscriptions. Kimi 2.6 has also come out. Not open weight, but a very powerful uh Chinese model, Kimmy 2.6. And I've heard coders say some very good things about this. So everybody's chasing Anthropics Claude and uh Codex 5.4 . Very, very hard. And I think this is good. Competition is always good, right? Uh did we talk about this last week? I think not. Sam Altman's world, you know the iris scanning thing? We didn't talk about it . Well, now Tinder is gonna use them to make sure that uh you're a human, not a bot, uh, when you're asking for dates . Um I'm not sure how this is gonna be implemented , but Tinder users can use a can put a digital badge in their profiles signaling this is wired writing to potential suitors they're a real boy or real curl provided they've already maps already have this but they just use kind of like a Yodie like thing. This is this is like your eyes are getting your irises are getting sort of do you still get the world coin? I dun I don't know. Probably. Although I think you don't get as much world coin in the US, as you would get in other places. Uh World says 18 million people have ver been verified with an orb . So the dating pool is wide. Orbs. Yep. But it's not just Tinder. Zoom is going to use it to verify humans in meetings. Uh uh this is uh Sam Altman's company is uh one of his side bets. This is not open AI. DocuSign, Okta, Shopify, and Van Eck, all signing deals with world to verify humanity . One thing humans are good at is bipedal motion, but they are no longer the world record holder for bipedal half marathons. A robot has now the new world record fifty minutes and some seconds in a half marathon. Uh the there look how fast that guy's going. John Henry. Woo. It is. It's like John Henry in the locomotive. I don't know what it means. Got a deep stance that robot. Oh yes. It runs low to the ground. The better videos of the robots falling over. Yeah, that's more than 20. Smashing into little here's a little one. Show some of these video. There's a little one going by. Oh little robot fell down. Sometimes when they fall down they burst into a thousand pieces. I'm trying not to laugh because I know this is all being Wo All being recorded. This is uh via Reuters. Thank you, Reuters. I don't take us down . Um last year the winning robot had two hours and forty minutes, this year fifty minutes. But again, I what have we accomplished here? It just means the robot police are gonna be able to catch you no matter what. They can catch you. How about a beanie designed to read your thoughts? Yeah, Ukraine's using robots to scare Russia. Come on. How many of these sort of stories have we had and none of them are real? We've we've gone over multiple things that are supposed to read your thoughts, but they don't. Does this one just also read your thoughts by reading what you mouth with your lips closed? That's what the last one did. Well, remember neural link, you actually have to have it surgically implanted. This one is sitting in a little beanie on your head. It's a little chip. It's reading EEGs, electroencephalograms. Uh so it is reading more than just your lips moving. I don't know if you can get speech out of an E G . Maybe in time. There's experimentation, but it's very in time. But you know what? That's what these are this the steps you have to take. Uh you know who doesn't have to read your mind? Dairy Queen. They're now using an AI to take your order at DQ . You probably could also get it to do math. Did you see McDonald's uh chatbot? There's their uh customer service chatbot on their website. Somebody uh, you know, among in between asking, well, what's in a Big Mac? Asked him, and can you write a Python script for reversing uh a list? And it happily gave him the the Python code. And then said what else can what else do you want to know about Big Macs? It spoke the Python code. Uh no, it's a text chat bot. But it was code, it was real code. TSMC, more bullish than ever. They expect revenue to grow by more than 30%. They're the company that makes many of the chips, including NVIDIA's GPUs . Uh they uh expect to grow revenue thirty revenue thirty percent year over year , more than thirty percent, actually. They have a 66% profit margin for the first quarter. That's the highest in 20 years. So demand is high, and when demand is high, prices are off. Actually, no, they're very actively building uh they have a plant already up in Arizona. They're really actively trying to div diversify, which is pretty important. And I think they're getting a lot of support from the U.S. government doing that. Traffic to according to Adobe, AI traffic to U.S. retailers went up almost 400% in the first quarter. This uh confirms what you've been saying, Jeff, that it you're you're dumb to exclude yourself from AI search results Mm-hmm. Well certainly mark certainly brands are do are going to be out there and marketers. The other interesting thing, though, is that and there there are some arguments, uh, I didn't put this stuff in there, uh huge projections for open AI's advertising opportuniti Oh, interesting. For advertising. I think we have to get to an agent to agent world before it starts to really work. Well, and that's my new uh this is the drum I'm beating from now on is that if you are making a website, if you're making a a a tool, a product, a operating system, an app, you darn well better have a uh agentic facing UI, an API or something that an agent can interface with. Because I I think people are just not gonna look at you if you don't. If you can't be controlled by AI, if you can't be controlled by an agent, if you can't be searched by an agent, uh you will not exist . And that's true for retail. AIO. AIO. That's what they call it, not SEO. Stanford's AI index finds China has nearly closed the performance gap with the U.S. This is related to Kimmy and uh and uh Qu en, despite spending twenty-three times less. Maybe this is the what you were talking about, Jeff, the unlimited power China has. They lead in AI patents, sixty-nine percent of global findings, public ations, industrial robot installations, nine times the US rate, and Jeff energy infrastructure. And their the brain drain has slowed considerably. AI talent talent migration to the US has dropped 89% since 2017. That's huge harm. That's another thing Justin Wong said is the half the the best AI scientists are Chinese. Yep. And now we're shoving them away. Yep. Uh we dominate with private AI investment because we've got the venture capitalists. Uh China investing $12.4 billion in 2025. We invested a whopping two hundred eighty-five point nine billion dollars in AI. California alone two hundred eighteen of billion of that, more than seventy-five percent of the US total. I I recently read a history of the Bell Labs, and it really struck me how history could have turned out differently that that so much of the great innovation, including especially the transistor, happened at Bell Labs in New Jersey, and the serendipity of how California ended up being the place. Instead of Jersey, man, Jersey should have been the valley. Really? Uh yeah, there was so much happening here on the East Coast. Oh , it's a collapse, yeah. It was well I also just read a recommended. I just finished a wonderful book, hold on here, Conquering the Electron by Derek Chung and Eric by Eric Jason Morton. Is this about the transistor or it starts with the Edison effect and goes all the way through? Uh Chung worked in chipmaking, and so there's more of that stuff at the at the end in which I I I This is a Jeff Jarvis subtitle. The geniuses, visionaries, egoaniacs and scoundrels who built our electronic age. Yeah, so it's ten it's twelve years old. But it's really good. It's very educational. I'll have to read it. Yeah. And it's so it was it was uh the fact that um Shockley went to California . Uh he was a horrible manager uh from Bell Labs, but he but he a credit hound and then he 's not a great person in bad stuff. But he hired the best people, and there was the so-called traitorous eight who went and created Fairchild, and then from Fairchild created Intel and so on and so forth. And it was really that seed that created Silicon Valley. Yep. Well, it's always you know Hewlett-Packard always gets credit because that was the first garage in the 30s. So there and Stanford gets some credit because there was a lot of stuff going on at Stanford at the time. All right. A couple more bad things. AI bad things. I don't know if there's a good thing. The first movie with a f ully AI generated performance approved by the actor Val Kilmer, who's passed away, will be AI generated in How did he approve it if he's passed family dead. His estate though. I bet he I wouldn't be they had to capture him, right? Oh yeah. I think they probably have enough footage of Kilmer. Kilmer's family blessed the use of his likeness. Ugh, I don't like that. He uh he died at uh the age of sixty five after a lengthy battle with cancer. Yeah, but I don't know. Let's I'll play. Dead dad and have him live on the project . The pictures of Val. It looked like it kind of looked like him. Well, yeah, that's kind of the whole point, right? Well, sometimes these things look kind of faky. Oh, that looks pretty good. Well it's only short and showing little short bits of Val . So yeah, I don't know. We'll see. I don't know. It's uh it's uh this could be a um watershed moment or not? He's seen for around an hour of the film's running time. It's amazing. It's not just because with the because we've seen that before, like in Star Wars, Gary Fisher and stuff, but this is like he's actually fully performance. You're gonna keep on counting fingers the whole time . Yeah, that's the problem. You highlighted this as well. And Don Labs, we gave an AI a three-year retail lease in San Francisco and asked them to make a profit . That's selling weird stuff. In fact, uh people are trying to game it to get it to sell stuff they're interested in. Uh in the comments section, they're saying, well, you know, this is a really great place if they would only sell uh uh sugar free gummy worms, because sugar free gummy worms are really a great thing to have in any store. Sugar free gummy worms are a must. And uh I don't know if it's working. These these agents, they're kinda soft brained. It's easy to influence . This is like what Joanna Stern did with the uh Wall Street Journal of the ending machine Yeah . Um finally No, you're not going to be done yet. I got a few. Oh, you got a few? I got a few. We're at two hours. This pasta sauce wants to record your family. Prego pasta sauce is now selling a screen-free voice recorder that you're supposed to put on the dinner table as the family talks. It's the Prego Connection Keeper , created in collaboration with Story Core, which is a nonprofit preserving Story Core is cool. Yeah, they're preserving the stories of Americans in the Library of Congress at the Folk Life Center. There's no AI, Wi-Fi, or Bluetooth, so it isn't AI story, but you can upload the recordings to StoryCore's website to make it easier to share with the website. recorder on your table or just opening up your phone and hitting record every time you sit down. Well, here's the difference. It's twenty dollars, but you get a jar of Prego spaghetti sauce . And spaghetti noodles and a deck of cards featuring conversation prompts and ideas. If they really cared about making this a good stunt piece, they would have found a way to get the recorder inside the jar of Praga. Or the lid. The lid should be the recorder or something. The lid that you know what? It's totally what I thought it was when I first saw this story. Oh, it's the lid. What what was the what was the spaghetti sauce commercial? It's in there. It's in there. It's your recorder in the sauce. It's a recorder in the sauce. All right, you guys, you get to pick some stories. Go ahead. All right, I got one to drive you angry and then I want one I want to hear . My blood pressure was just getting to normal. So um line one hundred eight is the world model . And this is another one of those Yan Lakun things. It's Yan Lakun and the paper is is hard to understand, but below that is a very good explanation. And I also asked Gemini for an explanation and it was similar. So if you go to the next slide, what's interesting about this is the the the role models have a problem, a representation collapse. They kind of consider everything this the same and they get distracted by things like a light bulb and don't understand what's what, attention must be paid. But for reasons ways that I cannot explain, I'm not capable of explaining, um, they came up with ways to get it to pay attention to the important stuff and a cleaner model. The efficiency this is what got me. The efficiency gains are striking. The model has around fifteen million parameters, trains on a single GPU in a few hours, and can plan up to forty five forty-eight times faster than larger foundation model-based world models. And so you start to see development here in the world model side of things. And this doesn't say anything against LLMs, it doesn't say anything against the scale world, but it is a competitive worldview Aaron Powell I it's a little deceptive because uh I mean I I can train a model. I have been training models. Pierre, you can train uh small constrained models easily on simple. These are trained on video. These are trained not on text but on video to understand. So what I'm training is of uh I don't want to have to say uh a Alexa or any of those words to talk to my agent, I want to say, hey Kenobi . So I I was gonna go, hey Obi-Wan, or actually I wanted to go help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, but it said that's not it's not good . And that we actually tried it. And what we did is we generated thousands of with speech synthesis, thousands of audio fil es and trained on that, plus some audio files that were similar but not it, so that would have what to reject. Um but I think the w it was a bad phrase and I wasn't using I was using a model uh text to speech model called Piper that wasn't very good so I'm gonna move to a better model that I one I use called Kokoro and I'm gonna make it hey Kenobi . Chat uh Claude and I went back and forth on this. I said, you know, you need some fricatives and some consonants in there. It'd be better if you started with something clear. A fricative. You need a fricative. I like that. Hey fricative. And uh so it's I said, what about hey canobi? And he said, that's really good because the k and the kenobi, the b and the b and the Hey, and it's it said that's gonna be really good. So I haven't done it. I said, you know, would it be better if we use a synthetic model or if I said it? It said, Well, you're gonna have to say it 200 times and you're gonna have to say it uh another two hundred times of things that are close but not the same. I said it's worth it. If it works, it's worth it. It said, you know, if you used Alexa, it'd be a lot better. I said, no, I don't want to use Alexa. So uh you can in other words if it's a constraint if you're doing something constrained you don't need a thousand GPUs and eight trillion tram parameters because you're not in training on the un a giant universe, you could train on a constrained universe. Um and so that's I'm sure what's going on here. These world models are simpler models. It's not a universal world model where it's like, well, you now know everything that happened in physics. We've had physics models for years. Games have them. Mm-hmm. Um I think Jan's try has something he wants to sell. I'm not against it. Uh I think it's just competitive view. Yeah, Jan and Fei Fe Li, I I think it's it's a competitive view. Uh I wanted to get Paris' view, Paris on the Peter Thiel backed startup uh called uh Objection. Did you see this? Oh vaguely. I mean this is a startup that you can pay inordinate sums of money . Well starts at two thousand dollars, yes. Yes. I think it's a mix of they claim it's a mix of AI and humans that then will do research to disprove or investigate a claim you said it to. And some of the arguments or case studies that they're putting out there is things like basically trying to correct the record if you believe an article is false, which I just think is very laughable and speaks to these sort of people not really understanding how journalism wor Aaron Powell Exactly. Yeah. So all investigative journalism goes away. And uh it only it it it most trusts official documents. Well we know how well that works. And then the AI is going to be the the tribunal of truth uh in the end, having been presented with the with this this uh information. Uh and it and and the idea is that it replaces both journalism and the courts. And part of it is you're able to assign truth scores to every single reporter or out let, and your truth score will go down if you do terrible things like ignoring objections from objection. So there's no objective truth then, right? So that's just whatever it says. There's no objective truth. So here's a sample honor inde x for uh a fake journalist named Sarah Chen. She is eighty eight hundred and ten percent trusted out of no eighty-one percent trusted . Top eighteen of tracked authors. And this is your score . Corrections. Well, you know, that's one good thing that retractions are issued within forty-eight hours, so publ they publish corrections. Yeah, there's something called the trust process. Yes, but uh that's different than three objections ignored for over thirty days takes your score down negative twenty-four points while correcting one published error and doing a retraction within forty-eight hours only takes it up twelve points. Gee, do you think you could game this? Yeah. Yeah. So it's it's ignorance. Is the is the principle wrong though? I think the principle is wrong, right? Yeah. I mean everything about it is wrong. Well it's's what what Benito was trying to say. There's context, there's framing , um uh there's nuance , and uh this erases all of that. Two plus two is four no matter what anybody says. And facts is facts And I mean it gets to something that uh Ian was uh touched on a little bit in our interview earlier, which is one downs ide of uh our increasingly interconnected world is that when you put anything out into the world, especially if it's journalism or something, suddenly, or even if it's just a post, suddenly there's this whole class of people who believe that that means they have a right to be in your inbox or at you on things and demand an answer and a response and your time. And I don't want to conflate this statement with saying like, oh, people who publish things or journalists or quasi-public figures have no obligation to their readers. Obviously that's not true, but I worry that if something like this were to take off, one of the downsides is you'd suddenly publish an article that's maybe a bit controversial, uh you instead of being flooded with you know spam and hate emails, you'll be flooded with spam and hate emails and hundreds of objections that if you do not respond on every single fact in your article, your credibility is taken down. It's just silly. It's totally uh weaponiz able, in other words. Yes, exactly. Yeah. One other quick one, real quick. I found this amazing line one thirty-three. A Tokyo court ruled that um uh uh somebody who put who who published a movie and anime spoiler articles that it was a copyright infringement to say how something ended. Number one. And number two, it's criminal. Got jailed. What? Spoil ers . Go to jail. I this is an example of all the things I hate. Yes. I don't under I mean listen, I don't understand the how maniacal spoiler culture or anti-spoiler culture has gotten lately. I understand not wanting to be spoiled about things, but it has also gotten to the point where people on say, you know, Reddit will will get mad at like 48 or seventy two hours after say the winner of drag race was announced that they're like I go on the subreddit, I open up Reddit and suddenly I see posts rev spoiling the winner of Drag Race. I'm like, I'm sorry baby, that that happened since hours ago. Have you heard of Times? Why are you on Reddit? Why are you on Reddit then if you don't want to know this information? Why are you on the internet for the colour? It's one thing to complain. It's another thing to go send somebody to jail for a year and a half. Yeah. That's insane. For publishing. This has copyright gone mad. But you know, I think Japanese uh courts are very aggressive about copyright. I think about Nintendo, which is uh extremely litigious and and always seems to win. I think this is not this is something uh uh typical of Japan, but that's ridiculous. Yeah, it feels like there's something cultural going on here. It's cultural . Uh in the movie Godzilla Minus One, which came out by the way in 202 3 . Uh, the Godzilla article 3,000 Japanese caracters in length was a complete uh detailed plot summary of the movie . Uh the makers of the movie su ed Toho, largest studio in Japan. The'yre famous apparently for stringent trademark protection. Ah , interesting. Uh went after him. He also wrote an article about the anime Overlord that aired in 2018. So it's not even like recent stuff. When does when does the spoiler limitation apparently ended up being the smoking gun for prosecution is the fact that the website ran ads . These spoiler articles, therefore, were not only stealing copywritten work, but earning money through it. But the fascinating bit, uh this r uh writer at T Hassan Nasir at a Tom's Hardware rights. The fascinating bit is that these pieces were all written by outside contributors. Takau chi simply operated the site, though he did earn revenue from it, but he's still the one that is has gone to jail over this. So this is an interesting question. This actually applies to this whole question of copyright with uh AI. or uh cliff notes . Uh we don't think that's a copyright violation, but it is kind of what an AI does, right? It's not recreating the the book, it's summarizing it in its head so that it can use that information. Which is why I argue that that it has a right to learn the same way we do. Yeah. Uh apparently not in Japan. I wonder . Yeah . So Paris, you had something too. Oh, my last thing is just I don't know if you guys saw this week that uh Reuters broke a story that Meta is now going to be recording all of its employees' clicks and keystrokes on its computers to turn all of that into AI training data. And of course the Metamates are up at arms about this, that their precious keystrok es and uh clicks could be suddenly everything happening on their computer screen is going to be logged by their employer and uh used to train on, which is Well are they mad about the training or that it's recorded? Because there's a historic right to record everything. Uh every employer has the right to record everything. I mean yeah, I think they're mad about the fact that suddenly everything they do on their computer is being recorded and logged somewhere. Chances are it's being recorded and logged at every employer. No, because I believe part of this is they have to are having to install new software on all of this. A lot of I'm sure what is going on in their country. for what's done on their premises with their hardware on their internet connection. And so almost all businesses record what you do on their computers. Well they record every stroke. They are installing new tracking software on their computers to track mouse movements and keystrok So that's the question. Are they mad about the AI training or are they mad about being recorded? They are mad about being recorded. I bet you anything Meta's always recorded it . Almost all companies do that. Big companies all do that . You you know, you go down the hall to IT, they can look at what's on any screen in in the uh premises at any time. They have to. They're protect theing state. But the when you're doing that, something pops up on your screen that is you're suddenly being remote accessed. I think people are No, no. There's no requirement. The law absolutely is clear on this courts of the case. I mean I'm not saying that they're legally required to. I'm saying that the general practice uh employee will see when you work at one of these large companies is something pops up in your screen to show remote acts. That has happened at at Condin Ask. That's what they did. Okay. Uh being very good about it. That's what it was. Because I talked about this a lot on the radio show for years because people were up in arms about it. The courts have been very clear. It's nice if you put it in your policy and tell people you have no requirement to do so. I mean I think people have always assumed they were being recorded. I think the difference here is that now it can be queried and now you can like find out what people are doing. No, but like queried by A And especially in a company like Facebook . Well it seems like there's something new going on here because they are being notified they're putting new software on the reporting is. We're small enough we didn't really probably have to. But uh many big companies is very common practice. Uh it's actually very nice of Kandi to warn you. Because if they don't even have to put it in their code. Like th that was never a good idea to do anything other than work on your work computer. That was always the message that I told people on the radio show is you should never do anything personal on your on your company phone, your company computer, or at work or with the company internet, because they have the absolute right to spy on you. What's funny is the law says they if they if you're on a company phone and they listen in on the phone call and they hear you having a private conversation, they're required to hang up. They're not allowed to listen to a private conversation on the phone. That's because older laws protected privacies on phones. Those laws never applied to digital technology. They never got around to making those laws. So unless they've something's changed, which I don't think it has. Well I used to talk about this all the time because people would always call up saying, hey, I got in trouble for this. It's like, dude . And I and I always said it would be really good if the company told you, but they don't have to. They don't, they absolutely don't have to . Um And I bet you, knowing Meta that that's always that's what they've done always. And it's their full right, right? To do that and to train AI with it. That's your work product. Yeah, I think the the employees are probably, you know, thinking like, yeah, you're training you're training the AI to replace you. That's exactly what's hap It's a new I think it's a new implication of what's possible because they have it. Yeah. I mean I look, I don't blame them. I wouldn't be happy about it either. Because people in the chat seem to think I'm an idiot, I in no way am saying that you should have personal and private access to your work computer. Work computers are obviously work computers and are owned by your employer and the things you do on them are monitored as almost any one of the corporate job has a pop-up that says that when you're logging in. Right. Well that's what I was curious about is what the people were upset about was the AI was it the AI training or the spying or both. Because uh the AI training is new. But again I think it's probably also like you know, we always assume that we're being spied on by our company, but like being told explicitly that we're spying on you is also different . It's better. It is better. It's better to be told. I think so. I think different than conscious of it than the other technical companies, Paris, that told you. I really don't . I think a lot of companies just spy on you . Uh well anyway, I hope somebody has learned something here today and they now know that they should stop buying drugs while they're at work . Yeah, wait till uh 5 30 p.m. get home . Use your phone. Not your company phone. Do you have a company phone and a private phone, right, Paris? I think you said that. I mean I have a work phone number and a personal phone number. But most are paid phone for by me because I don't want to mix any ass I want my to be able to can take my work phone number with me with Right. Ah Ergo signal. Uh you're watching Intelligent Machines. Guess what's next? Picks of the week. Yeah. And Jeff Jarvis, whose uh personal emails are incredibly dull. So spy away, right? My life is an open blog. Uh author of the many wonderful books like the Gutenberg parentheses. I didn't realize magazine was part of that hundred eleven book object lessons. What an interesting idea that is. It really is. And the ideas they come up with. There's others I I I'm dying to write. I've got an extra book to get out, but then there's others. It's such a fun format to work in What's the what's the retail price of magazine? Eleven. So it would one thousand one hundred and twenty-one dollars to buy all 1 11 of those. Because I would love that on the book a bookshelf with the There's no bundle. There must be a bundle, right? Well no, the it's it's 101. Bookstores is hard. They can't get the whole series in the bookstores, which is difficult. I got a London magazine store to carry the book. Like, hello Yeah. It's about magazines. As a professor, I like a lot. Eileen Giselle. I don't know how pronounce it, G, apostrophe, S E L L. She just put did one on a lipstick. And she's been on a she put herself on a national tour promoting it. It's been fun seeing where all she's talking about it. Actually, related to what we were talking about, I forgot this was one of the stories I had . Defunct startu ps are liquidating their Slack archives, Jira tickets, and email threads by selling them to AI and finding a whole new revenue stream. Oh my god . So there that's the that's exactly everything you wrote, every email you wrote, every slack you wrote, every Jira ticket . The company uh simple closure when when Shauna Johnson was winding down CLO twenty four, CLO twenty four, the transcription and captioning company she ran as CEO. She discovered an unexpected asset. This is from Forbes. Its operational exhaust, the digital leftovers that piled up across years of work and collaboration. She sold to simple closure everything . Everything on every on the hard drive. Every slack 13 years of slack jokes, Jira tickets, emails , t multi-terabyte Google Drive as training data, and she got hundreds of thousands of dollars for it. This is brilliant. Hundreds of thousands of dollars is actually impressive. I thought it would have been much less. It's worth something. You know, I'm just thinking our Google Drive is uh more than a hundred terabytes. No, I I I'm thinking not not selling our data, we even s broker deals between you'd be a middleman between selling just data from good defunct companies. See? He's already thinking about a business. Why wait to be defunct ? You know what it really is? It's like they've ru they've run out of every all the public data. There's nothing more to ingest. They ingested it all . And now they need something. Something new. That's what Ilya Sutzskiever says. That's just to inspire synthetic data. Yeah. All right. Last uh call for Pix of the Week. In just a moment, you're watching intelligent machines. Uh I mentioned Paris. I mentioned Jeff. Thank you for being here. What I didn't mention is our fabulous Club Twit members who make this show possible. Literally make this show possible. Uh Club Twit now is is rapidly, it's soon gonna be half of our uh operating expenses come from the club. That means advertising only covers about fifty or sixty percent of our costs of Benito's salary, of the lights, the cameras, all it's more expensive than one would think to have uh fifteen podcasts going all week. Uh and you know, advertising used to cover most of it, it doesn't anymore. Thank goodness we've got the club. Lisa says that to me every morning. Thank goodness we have the club. If you want to be part of uh our salvation, twit.tv slash club twit. It's it's it's a I think a good deal. Ten bucks a month. You get uh ad free versions of all the shows. You wouldn't hear me begging for money. You wouldn't hear any of our ads. You uh would get access to the club twit discord , which is full of really interesting people and great conversations. I really like it. I think one of the advantages of being in something that people pay to be in is it just raises the bar . There's there's great content in here. Uh not just about the shows, of course during the shows, but also around other topics that geeks are interested in. There are also a great many things we do in the club . Uh special programming. Tomorrow at 9 a.m. I'm going to interview Chris Stokel Walker for future intelligent machines. You can join us for that. The mayor of San Jose on Monday, April 27th, he's running for governor of California, but he has a lot to say about AI and city government. We also uh do a few shows like iOS today, hands on tech. The AI user group coming up May 8th. That's a really great g ang of smart people who are using AI every single day. We talk about tricks, tools, tips, show and tell, just like a real user group. Chris Marquard's Photo Time, our Google I.O. coverage coming up May 19th, Micah's Crafting Corner on the 20th. These are all special programming we do just for the club. Would you like to join us? We'd love to have you. And we really need your support. Twit.tv s lash club twit. Thank you. Thank you very much, club members. And of course, the Twit Network bikini calendar. What? Pretty fly for a cis guy. We don't have to Leo, we don't want to see you in a bikini. You don't want to see you. Yeah, it's twelve months of Leo. And the twit tea and the twit tattoo features heavily in ways you don't want to say They say go big or go home, but now you can go big at home with the big arch on delivery. When you're hungry for something big, like really big, big arch for big McDonald's hunger. Order on the McDonald's app . Served from eleven a.m. Upcharges and fees applied to delivery orders. Subject to availability. Price and participation may vary. Paris pick of the week. Uh this weekend I went to Depths of Wikipedia live show. What? Uh which was a great show put on by Annie, I guess I should have remembered her last name. Annie uh Rar uda . She is she runs the fantastic accounts called Depths of Wikipedia, which you may have seen on Twitter, Blue Sky, Instagram. Um and it's just this was this really funny live show all about kind of the wonders of Wikipedia and has fantastic guests. There they still have a show going on, I think, in Los Angeles uh next month. So if you're around there and interested in any sort of nerd dumb or Wikipedia, I'd really recommend it. So it's a comedy show? Kind of. Yeah, it's like a bit of a comedy show. She goes through a pr like a presentation and then interviews people about just incredible fun facts and deep dives into Wikipedia. And it's about also the kind of culture of Wikipedia editing . Um some of the interesting time like the interesting minutia in terms of uh let's say like Wikipedia editor on Wikipedia editor violence or uh the various sort of drama going on in the subcommunication. Fantastic. I mean and it was a packed house. It was a packed house at the Grammar C theater. They were so sold out they had to have two different shows. She organized a perpetual stool stew in a Brooklyn Park. Famously organized a perpetual stew. There was a couple of signs up saying perpetual stew, this Bushwick Park. And she didn't expect many people to show up, but suddenly I believe there were hundreds, if not more, and there was a New York Times article written about it. Uh she's very funny. Uh she had a couple different guests up for the show I was at, um, including the woman who is the voice of the New York City Subway. Oh voice Next Stop uh Laudable . Did you recognize did you go oh that's her yes she sits down and everyone's like oh who's this and then she goes into the voice and everybody scars The next train is a C train yeah, wow . Brooklyn bound four train next stop . Yeah. Wow fantastic. Uh but I'm excited to see and they're at great merch as well. I got a good shirt. There's only one more show. It's in Los Angeles uh May 9th at Hollywood Forever . She's done Seattle, San Francisco, a bunch of shows in New York, Chicago, Philly. And if you have no idea what I'm talking about, I'd highly recommend that sh you follow her on Instagram or Twitter or wherever you are because her accounts are so funny. It's called Depths of Wikipedia, and it is just let's see if it'll come up here. I love it that Chibata was invented in 198 2 as a rival for Begett's she will post just some of the most interesting tidbits of lore that you could ever imagine about things you never even thought of. There's clearly that she has massive fan base. I mean uh is does she have a podcast or just an Instagram? No, it's just this. I mean, her Instagram is one point six million followers already, which is incredible. Brilliant. It's brilliant. This is this is this is the this is brilliant. And she's a fantastic uh Wikipedia editor as well. So yeah. One of their most famous Wikipedia. Is there an AI angle and get her on? I think we should just get her on just 'cause it's hysterical. Brilliant. I mean we should. It was fantastic. Yeah. But then how did you learn about it, Paris? You already followed her? I've I've followed her on multiple platforms for potentially years and I don't really know when it started or what it didn't, but I just I love her posts. They're all so funny. Um She's only twenty-six. I mean, she's a young person who's kind of suddenly just hit on something . Crazy. Yeah, and she runs a great live show. Brilliant. Yeah, you know what? This is this is why the modern world is so interesting and the internet is so interesting. And this would not have made it through the gauntlet of Bass Pedia. No. I mean, one of the anecdotes she told uh during it is if you look up the Wikipedia article for humans , um or I guess human, there was a lot of back and forth over what photo should be chosen to be on the Wikipedia page for human. And there' alsos just uh a lot of uh internal conflict within the Wikipedia editor community because normally you're not allowed to edit any article that you have any potential relation to. All by definition all Wikipedia editors uh can't edit human because they are human. So once they got around that, they were like, well, what photo should we use? And they ended up using a photo of a Akha couple in uh northern Thailand . And she, after I think, the Wikipedia editor conference in Singapore a couple of years ago, ended up flying to Thailand and tracking them down, or ended up tracking uh their children down because they've since passed. And it showed them that yeah, she said basically Google the word human, click on Wikipedia, and then they were like, oh my God, that's my parents. That's very funny. Yeah. They are they are the quintessential humans. Her uh Instagram is depths of Wikipedia. And it's also where tickets also on Wiki on uh on blue sky. And I see that Micah already follows her , of course. Yep. You're all you all know each other. There's Paris also following. That's great. And Megan Moroney follows her. Very nice. Good. Okay. Oh, and my favorite Worcester Terrari ums which has lots of good followers including AOC. Yeah it's a big guy. Green, Jamel Bowie. Amazing. Brandi Zadrosny . What are you laughing at? I'm looking at the Wikipedia entry for ketchup effect. The ketchup effect is when nothing comes, then way too much very fast . That's it. That's the whole article. Ketchup effect on Swedish on Swedish Wikipedia. Yeah. Ketchup effect . I mean that's the thing, is the whole account is just little things like this that are . I'm following her. That's fantastic. Oh my goodness. Uh let's see. My pick of the week. Uh I had a couple. I forgotten completely what they were. One of them is uh because we were talking about how Claude uh now has Claude Design anthropic has Claude Design. And then Google, which has Stitch, which is does kind of the same thing. Let's you design your own, you know, design stuff with AI. Somebody uh at Google said, you know, you know how we could we could trump anthrop ics claw design? Let's just give them all our uh prom pts for Google Stitch and they can run it in clawed code and they don't even need clawed design. So this is on GitHub, Google Labs Code , design.md. It's the prompts you need to basically turn clawed code into Google Design . Which is probably something very close to what Anthropic did to create Google Design. I think that was kind of a nice little comp etitive jab from Google. And then the other one is maybe a little bit more important. And it's it's something we were talking about. Is your website agent ready at let me see what's the uh is agentready.com . So you put in your website here, why don't we put uh your website, Paris .nyc, and just see how how ready for agen tic AI it is for MCP, for markdown negotiation, for agent skills. It'll do a scan. Will it? Oh, yours is better than mine. I was about to say it it scans to Paris Martineau at Paris Martinot.com, right? Oh it did. It's it automatically redirected. Mine's better than yours? Yeah, mine is only seventeen. Yours is twenty five Um I make no attempts to make it compatible. I mean I've made no attempts to make it compatible. Oh, you have bot access controls set on yours. That's I think the big difference. I don't know. Maybe you're uh host did it. What is this website? Uh is this kind of a terrible URL. Is it ready? Agent Is it agent ready.com. What was Paris's score? 25. I got 33 at Jeff Jarvis.com. Oh nice. Twit gets a lowly 17 as well, and uh as does Leo FM. So Paris, you beat Twit and me, Jeff, you beat Paris and Twit and me. But probably this this is more seriously to the whole thing we were talking about, which is I think everything has to be a uh what did you call it? AIO A IO is well there's there's one it was called GEO gener ative engine optimization. But you know, in some schools that's over Leo. So AI optimization. A optimization, yeah. And Jeff, you used up a bunch of pics. Are there any left? Oh, I I I I wanna come I have a happy ending to my long careful saga on getting Ask Gemini into my browser on my Google Chrome. On my Google Chrome, on my Google Workspace. So there was another story about more features they're adding. But once a month I go to my admin settings and I say, surely there's must be something left out, something new. I'm going to go through all of them. I go through all of them. I find nothing. I have said yes to everything. I am my administrator. I am the entire site. I am it. But now there was a new feature. There was you can use Gemini on the admin site to get help with admin. So I thought, okay, I put my complaint in, I say hello, I'm the this is this and this, and I don't have it on my browser. And it comes back and it says we need to set this, this, this. And I can't went back and I said, I have. And I said it's still not working. And it came back and it said, no, no, no. If you do this, this and this, it'll work. And I said, I have, you're wrong. Um, no, I still don't have it. Third time it said, oh, try this setting that you would never find . And I'd gone through everything about about you think it'd be in the Gemini part? No. You think it'd be in the apps part? No. Hidden three layers into the user , there was a special thing where you had to set defaults to okay. Now mind you, I shouldn't have gotten uh asked of an eye on anything, on Gmail or anything by this. I got it on everything except Chrome in my Chromebook. The one thing you want. Three boxes and now I have it. Woo . Now what I do with that have I used it? No. I actually I took well the only thing I've done so far is when I read try to read the Ann Lacun uh uh the world model book for that, yeah. I said, Explain this to me. It it did a good job. It did a very good job. I now have it. So I'm not gonna say all is forgiven because I begged here a hundred times and no one told me. It's true. I bored the world. Three check boxes and you're in, Jeff. And I'm in. Meanwhile, one more, line one hundred fifty two . Uh Benito, are you gonna show your loyalty and get one of these with Leo on it ? Uh oh. Now I'm worried. Me too. Must have item in Silicon Valley , the one hundred and seventy eight dollar sweater with the CEO's face on it. Leo, when are you gonna get ones of this with for all of us? Yeah. That's a jeteur No, I have not sufficient ego. I know you don't believe me when I say this, but I do not have sufficient ego to send you all sweaters with my picture on it. That would be appalling. Alex Carp has him is on a t-shirt. I think that's even I I don't know. What do you think is more appalling? Sweater? Okay, yeah, the fact that the t-shirt says dominate is that's that's uh Wow. Now I don't mind the Hawaiian shirts that Andoril sells based on Palmer Lucky's Hawaiian shirts. The guy who makes your t-shirts, you should get him to make a twit one or a Leo for to incorporate the Twit logo into it. Wait, yeah, can you get someone to make a version of your uh colorful Hawaiian shirts but with your own face on it. Paris, don't mock me. I know you would not wear anything that had my face on it. I would wear it for this show. Just for this show. Well, twit.t v slash store uh nothing has my face on it. But uh oh wait a minute it does have something with my face . Just scroll up. You just scrolled by your own face. Yes, go up. Oh my god. Right there. I think we may never do that. I don't have any doubt. I think we're not only is his face , but Chief, Chief, Chief, Chief. We did it when Elon took the name Chief Twitter. I had nothing to do with it. I just want to tell you. I didn't say Smithers make a t shirt with my face on it. Call it chief twit. Okay, I take it back. I guess I guess you can buy that. Twit.tv slash uh store and yeah, you said good things. Now, Paris, you have to retract that you want it because otherwise you're gonna get it for Christmas. Yeah, I mean that's not what I was thinking about. No, I yeah, I know. I know it's not what you're thinking about Hawaiian sure would be better. Yeah. The guy who makes it. But we are going to Hawaii . We used to have a lot of the twit uh hoodies that we used to sell were really great. These are not quite as nice as the ones we used to sell. You know the reason is w you just make no money on these. And uh and we'd have to we have to charge so much for these to make even a dollar that it's you know Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that funny? But there's nothing for intelligent machines, is there? There is a lot of stuff for intelligent machines. Oh, is there? Oh good. There's homeware. There's an intelligent machines toast. Holiday . I don't know what that is. Ceramic ornament for your tree? Somebody's having oh there, look, there is an intelligent machines die cut stuff. Look at that. That's nice. Pets? What do we have for pets? An ask the tech guy's pet t-shirt . And you can get a mug, intelligent machines mug. But that's fun. I think Anthony uh does this uh when he's feeling uh like a little bored. Bored . Puts these together . Um get your get your twig uh a merch before it goes it's a gone away from the collector's item of the colour. By the way, I should mention, Jeff, I forgot to mention this. Google is apparently working on a Pixel laptop with Pixel Glow lights. Uh because uh you can see apparently something in the uh latest uh beta releases of Android, Android 17 beta. What are the light animations? Pixel Glow. Guess what I bought uh this week ? A new Mac? Did you buy a Neo? Bought a Neo. Oh, send us the bill. I feel like. No, no, no, no, no, no. Let me let me complain though. Are you gonna be using the Neo for this? Can the Neo even support stream? Oh totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well I'm not gonna I'm on a twelve year old Mac Intel. Intel Mac Mini. Twelve years old. Yeah. And it works fine. I'm using an M1 Mac Mini that probably has eight gigs of RAM to do the show right now. Benito's using something a little heavier duty. So I go in the store and I say I want to buy a Neo, I want the blue one, uh I want this uh education big ger good choice. Right. Oh no well I'll sign you up for a specialist . Go sit over there in my my my cane incredibly uncomfortable shit. I. hate the app Drives me nuts. Used to be in the day, if they were busy, anybody would Oh, can I write that up for you now? No, no, no, no, no. I sat there for more than a half an hour. Oh , for the privilege , giving from your money I I left. I left. I said, and I'm walking out, the scheduler, I went to the schedule at some point. I said, come on, man, I know what I want to buy, just sell it to me. There's no way to run a store. No way to run a store. No way to run a store. Yeah, I didn't like that. So I I walk out and I say goodbye. And he didn't catch the nuance of my voice. He said, Goodbye. Or maybe he did, but is he ? Maybe he did, but I don't think Apple people would have that much irony. So I go home and I and I or Did you shake your cane at him when you said that's no way to run a store? I should have. Meanwhile, meanwhile, my Chromebook died. Oh. I don't know. How did it's brand new. Was it before or after you got uh Gemini on it? Um good question. Uh before. Um I on it? No. I questioned that. It went black and it couldn't it couldn't boot, so there's some hardware problem. So it's now slowly FedEx is very slow. Uh-huh. I got it to FedEx on Sunday. It's supposed to be delivered to the place on Thursday, then it's seven to ten days to do it, and then time to get it back. So I decided okay, screw up. No way to run a store. So did you run a store? Mail order a Neo. No, I but no because actually no, you couldn't get the Neo's until mid-May. Oh they happened to have it at my local store. Well what you do is you go online, you buy it online and you say, I want to pick it up at the store. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, that's very efficient. They just give it to you. Blue. I like the blue. No, I didn't get the greeny one, no. The blue's not the one the blue's nice. I think the blue's the one. We all agreed on Mac Break Quickly. That's the one. And there's nothing like I should not I should not move any you c anything over from the twelve year old Mac Minnie. Probably not. No. Uh yeah, because those will all be Intel programs. Don't don't even don't even just download a new copy of Zoom and you'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. Well thank you, Jeff, for uh your commitment to the show. I appreciate that. That's very nice of you. And we would buy that for you if you want. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. If we buy it for you though, you understand we will use all clicks, all documents and sell it to movements and send it to AI.. Yes We'll send them to Grok Yeah, actually if they buy it for you, they're gonna put bad Rudy on your computer. Bad Rudy's good . Thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you, Paris Martinot. You'll find her at Consumer Reports. You're still on uh on deadline? Are you are you working on that? No, I just you know, we got a lot of things going on, and I am the person who has to solve all of those problems. But a story will come out of it. I do love it. You love it. This is the And tomorrow if you happen to be a retiree in Westport, Connecticut, I'm gonna be speaking to you. Really? Uh me and some of my colleagues are doing a food safety discussion for the wise men of Westport tomorrow. The the You're talking to the wise men of Westport? Now we think it's the letter Y at the wine. It should be at the wine. May or may not be wise. It's not at the wine either. The wise men of Bridgeport . So so is it's uh uh don't leave fish in the refrigerator for two weeks? Is that what what No, actually we're talking about uh kind of an inside look at how consumer reports like three pillars. The testing the testing team uh reporting and our advocacy teams kind of work together and they were particularly interested in our food safety coverage, specifically the protein powders investigation and in my reporting on radioactive shrimp. But of course taking them through it by like kind of a deep dive into protein powders. Well if I if I weren't going to my wife getting an award tomorrow, I would come up to Westbrook's retired baby. Congrats bring your cane and your food safety questions . Yes. True. For the wise men of Bridgeport. Well they're very fortunate to have that. That's lovely. How are you going to get to Bridgeport? Well, I'm getting to West it's Westport. I'm getting there by taking the train very early tomorrow. Oh uh and then going to be picked up at the Westport train station by our content officer. Nice. Well have a wonderful talk. Yeah. I shall. Yay. I was gonna say everybody was uh we were all discussing this week, like, oh do you guys need to prep and stuff? I'm like, I I can talk. No, I can have some just watch, I have some practice. Just let me go. Nice. Put a mic in front of me and Nice. And by the way, should we note? The dulcet tones remained the entire show, did not? Did they not? They did. There was a brief moment where we thought we were flickering, but they have remained. And Gizmo is currently laying on top of the Scarlet . And so I would expect that would be impacting it, but it isn't. Oh does she always do that? No. Because I usually pick her up, but I didn't I kind of overheating could explain it. It's not she's not on top of it. It's just she like lays in front of it and definitely touches it. I think it's doing it now, by the way. Well, it could have been because I was wrestling a cat . As I said that. Uh okay, my friends. Thank you, Jeff Jarvis. Don't forget his new book, Hot Type, available now at Jeff Jarvis.com for pre-order. It comes out the same time as Ian's book. No, it actually comes out in uh now in August because they were gonna come out and it was supposed to come out in June, and then they moved it for production reasons to July, and I said I'm not gonna say it's the in, but July's dead time. Oh . So they moved it's now an early fall book . Okay. You'll still get it if you order it now. Yeah, if you order it now, it'll it'll make it'll make me happy. It'll make Jeff happy, and that's our goal in life. Thank you everybody. You've made us happy by joining us. We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bye-bye. Hello everybody, Leo Laporte here. You know what a great gift would be, whether for the holidays or just any time, a birthday, a membership and club twit. If you have a Twit