Vine Reboot and AI News Aggregation

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martnow's here. Well, she will be. She's on the stuck on a train right now. But our guest is here, and I'm very excited to be talking to Narav Patel. He is the founder and CEO of Framework, The Upgradeable Computers. He says computing as we know it is about to change forever. Intelligent Machines is next. Podcasts you love. From people you trust . This is Twit ch. This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode 86 8, recorded Wednesday, April 29th, 2026. Happy hamburgers towing Timmy to the sea. It's time for intelligent machines, the show we cover AI, robotics, and all those smart doohickeys all around us. We're surrounded by intelligent machines this day. Uh Paris Martineau is stuck in a tunnel. She'll be here momentarily. Consumer reports. She's on the subway. That's New York life, right? I probably shouldn't say stuck in a tunnel to this guy, Paris, uh uh Jeff Jarvis, uh, because you probably have a little bit of I don't know, PTSD from two thousand one. Yeah. I guess so. Yep. Yeah. Jeff Jarvis, uh Emeritus Professor of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalists. Newmarks, New York. He's also the author of the Gutenberg Press magazine and uh the new one, Hot Type, available now for pre-order from Bloomsbury. Uh and Jeff, of course, is uh teaching now at uh Montclair and a state university in New Jersey and SUNY Stoneybroeok. Okay. Enough. I want to get right to our guest. I did. I said Paris is stuck in a little bit. Is she on the IRT? Which subway? We don't have to Brooklyn can be all of them. Brooklyn's very well served. It's well served. It can be the BMT, the IRT, the IND. They all go to Brooklyn. You know, it's funny. You know, the history of the New York subway system is fascinating. They were all private companies. Mm-hmm. That's why they all have different names and different roots and but then they guess I guess they all got merged together. Our guest today, uh Nerov Patel. Uh Claude says Nerov that you may be the most interesting hardware founder in tech I'll take it. I think it's true. Actually, fascinating story. Uh you started uh at Oculus back in the Kickstarter days. That's right. The Oculus Red ended with the Palmer Lucky. I was a Kickstarter uh purchaser of the original Oculus Rift. Uh and then bought a couple from Meta, which it turns out you also worked on, including the Quest 2. That's right. That was the last one. And we discussed before before we got on what before I worked on the software actually. So I wrote some webcam interface logic from a from a software perspective, basically just to make it easier to interface. Right. And it's got just the the slowest little embedded AMD geod processor in it. So it took the And it was small talk, right? It was running small talk. It was running small talk for the uh yeah, a lot of the system was running small talk. This part of it was running Python, but obviously the webcam interface code was all just pure C assembly. Or C, okay. Yeah. C with a little bit of assembly mixed time. So you he's let's just I'm just saying this to say establish his bona fides. You're definitely a hardware guy, right? But it sounds like you had maybe a little bit of epiphany working at meta making these meta quests that maybe this wasn't the ideal way to make hardware. That's right. You could s you could say that. So I've got yeah you could say I've got the the engineering background but I had to put a suit on, a hype you know, uh metaphorical suit since I'm wearing a sweatshirt today, um, and realized that actually the fundamental problem in the computing industry was not really, in my view, a technical problem or an engineering problem. It was actually truly a business problem. And the business problem was the fundamental misalignment in the incentives of what's good for the companies in the space and what the consumers and businesses buying those machines actually wanted out of those. And an environmental problem. Aaron Powell And environmental problem. That's right. And the two obviously all those things tie together very tightly. Aaron Powell So you decided to found something that anybody would have said is a nutty thing to do with a brand new laptop company, uh, in the face of the um Apples and the Dells and the Lenovo's of the world, uh, and the HPs. And what year was that? What year was that when you started? That was in 2020. And you can see 2020 through 2026 is the most interesting period in time to have a hardware startup. Crazy . Uh by the way, if you're looking for it, uh frame .work is the website. Um, did so did you put your own money into this? Did you get venture funding? How did you how did you start? Yeah, so I yeah, that's a great question. So I did get this off the ground with my own funding to put into it. And actually, even that first round, we did actually do a venture round in 2021. We called it a seed round, but actually was almost entirely the Oculus friends and family connections that made that round possible because absolutely no venture capitalist wanted to put money into a into a pre-market uh laptop company. So you were knocking fun? Yeah. So it's a little bit of that. Um but then of course we did get into market. We proved that yeah of course there is demand for this. We showed the sales numbers, and since then we've raised two additional venture-backed rounds uh that have helped us fuel categ ory expansion, especially. That's fantastic. Uh and you've really taken it somewhere. The first framework was a 13-inch laptop. It was fully modular. It came with a screwdriver. That's right. Uh I bought, of course, I've always bought the DIY uh version. You do ship a version that's pre assembled, but I like the DIY and it's not hard. It's snapping in a RAM module. It's it's you know, it's not a it's not a tricky thing to do. It's like the IKEA of making computers. Even easy much easier. Believe me. I'm never burning but building furniture again. But this but this laptop was easy to put together. It was an amazing thing. I remember Cory Doctoro saying, I'm not gonna, I'm I'm done with Lenovo's. That's right. It's framework from now on. And of course he runs Linux on it. I've always run Linux on my frameworks. You ship them with Windows as well, if people want Windows. That's right. I th I saw an interesting statistic though, uh that mostly now, what is it, sixty percent Linux? Yeah, just in the last year or so has tilted over to being majority Linux, which is interesting because obviously from 2021 through 2026, we've gripped we've grown our sales numbers like multiple times and you would think that when we did that we'd get greater percentage share of Windows rather than Linux. So we get like all the Linux enthusiasts in on day one and then we'd get into mainstream. But actually what we've seen is the opposite. We've gone from about seventy percent Windows now to closer to forty to forty-five percent windows, even as we've grown pretty substantially. Isn't that amazing? I think that's a testament uh to Linux, certainly, uh to the a growth of AI, certainly, but also to the fact that people who buy frameworks are computer nerds. They're serious people. That's a good way uh to do it. Uh you also uh expanded the line with a 16 inch um you you uh what one of the cool things uh by the way I fix it uh 10 out of 10 on the repairability score in that very first uh 13 inch and consistently 10 out of 10. What's amazing about it, and what I was pretty much unheard of, is you can upgrade it. That's right. You could put in an AMD processor and an Intel processor. You could put a GPU in. Then you added something that got me really. There was one little detour that I've already discussed. Is is my disappointment that the that the framework Chromebook is no longer. Oh, you did do a Chromebook briefly. Yeah, we did retire the Chromebook. We didn't know what a test between both Google and us of is there a market for a higher end Chromebook, a higher performance Chromebook? And a lot of it for Google at that time was especially around the environment al angle of repairability and longevity. Like they put obviously a lot of focus recently into software longevity, and the hardware wasn't necessarily keeping up with the software at that point. And so for us, it was okay , let's work together. We can build long lasting hardware to go with the software that you're now making lasts longer. And what we found in market was at least at that time, which was about three years ago, there was unfortunately not a market for a thousand dollar Chromebook. That's not to say that couldn't be in the future, but it did that specific product just didn't pan out market-wise. Sorry, Jeff. Sorry. Jeff just bought a Neo, an Apple MacBook Neo. To replace my twelve year old uh Apple box. Oh yeah. Yeah. So uh we'll w we're working on them, you're we'll get we'll get them one day. You can plug in a GPU to the back, extend it, you can plug in additional battery in. You can have an orange bezel if you want. I love the colored bezels. You can customize it completely. Really nice keyboards, track pads. The whole thing is modular. It's it's it just warms my little heart to to what you've done. But then you uh announced a desktop which is a little less upgradable than your That's correct, actually. What what prompted the desktop? Yeah, this is an interesting one. We actually we get roadmap presentations and reviews from basically all the silicon vendors going out a few years. And a few years ago, AMD came to us with a very, very interesting processor that was just on the horizon for them. And they were actually framing this as basically a high-end laptop processor to compete better with Apple and their very strong unified memory capabilities with a lot of memory bandwidth. And when we looked at that processor, two things were obvious. One, there's no way we could reasonably fit it in a laptop. It was just massive over kill from a size and power perspective to actually fit in any of the laptops that we've been developing. And two, that actually this was going to be a killer processor to bring down the size and power consumption and cost actually of a handful of related use cases. So gaming, content creation, general workstation case use cases. Then actually most interestingly, what was then the em erging use case of being able to run LLMs locally on a machine that you own on your desk. And so that's something that like a few years ago we spotted this on the horizon, saw that processor, and decided, okay, we need to enable that use case. This is going to be huge. And for us, we can't fit in a laptop, it doesn't make sense in our laptops. Let's actually build a dedicated machine around this processor. It was that interesting a processor. And now if you'll play the theme from 2001 as Space Odyssey. Da It isn't that big. Is that a mini ITX? What is the it is actually mini ITX. So even though it's not quite as upgradable, the memory is actually soldered. We tried to stick to standards everywhere we could. But it's unified memory, so that's unified part of the reason the Strix Halo CPU system on a chip is so great. Notice I got the big Noctua fan. Perfect. And the clear screen because you want to see inside. And then I love the customizability of these little uh things tiles. The tiles you can clearly have a a little special version here. We three D printed some not to a brand color uh panels for this one. I can tell by the way you're handling it though there's nothing inside that box. No, this is heavy actually. I've just been working it. What was the timing of this decision versus the explosion of interest in ChatGPT? This so it does align to the cloud models becoming very popular and the cloud services becoming very popular and actually aligns to some of those early model releases that made it clear that like there were going to be very capable open weights models reaching the public, reaching developers and hobbyists. And the hardware was lagging behind it. So like Llama, earlier versions of Llama were out there in the world, and some of the models coming out of China the open source labs in China were starting to get out into the world. But the actual hardware to access that was incredibly difficult to put together. And so we saw that as basically just a hole in the market for us to go and fulfill. I want this so badly. And actually I I bought it, then I canceled it, and then I bought it again.. Oh, okay And I'm glad I did . Uh, because at this point it's a little more expensive because you I mean, I got a hundred twenty-eight gig model, the largest you made, with the AMD AI 395 plus, really nice uh system on a chip. Designed, I mean the whole point of this, and you remember this, Jeff, was I wanted to run local AI models. Yep. Uh but this was right before the supply chain crash and uh the the rise in price, not just of RAM, but also now you're faced with rising prices on SSDs. That's right. Uh and I don't even know. Processors. Yeah, processors as well. Wow. So so yeah, talk about the vice that you and your competitors are in right now. Before you do that, I just want to show one more thing. All of these have this little modular. You can plug in these little I loved this idea too. This framework 13 started with this. So there's's a it really a USB C port, but you can plug in modular. So I've got Ethernet and uh and another USB C plugged in on the back. And that all the laptops do that too. So you configure the the ports you want. Again, just really nice thoughtful features that make people very happy. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, the lights went out. Oh . We still got power in the building going. Yeah, it is a tricky time. Obviously, there is demand for memory pretty substanti ally exceeding the supply over a very extended time window as well, unfortunately. And we're kind of in the we're uh in framework kind of at this interesting scale where have the necessary relationships, let's say the microns of the world and the various module makers and distributors that we can still get access to memory. Like we do have a direct relationship with micron, we can still get allocation. Micron stopped selling to consumers there was such a closed down the crucial brand, which obviously I know a lot of consumers are unobset justifiably upset about. memory to go around customers who are buying from them. They don't want to be in a position of then competing with their customers with their own in-house brand. It would just be a a challenging business move from their perspective to have to do that. So we definitely get it. We understand why they had to make that move, even though we were also sourcing crucial brand memory from Micron at that time. But we're also just going back to the scale that we're at, we're also kind of at this interesting scale where we're small enough that we can get creative and be able to grab memory in ways that some of the bigger brands actually can't. So for us, we go and watch the spark market, we go and talk to brokers, and if some broker spots, you know five thousand pieces of memory sitting in a warehouse somewhere in the world, for us we can go and pick that up and it's meaningful and it helps us produce more laptops or desktops. For let's say an Apple, 5 f,ive thous pieandces uh is it's a rounding year. They wouldn't even bother to to talk to that broker. So we're we're kind of able to navigate in an interesting way because of the I like that you're a you're a you're a chip dumpster diver. That's right. Yeah. We we do We're talking to Nirov Patel, founder and CEO of an amazing company that uh I'm a happy customer of framework at frame.work. Paris Martineau is uh off the out of the tunnel. Hello, they tried to stop me. They tried to trap me underground. You didn't walk down the track, did you? I hope not. You know, I thought about just running through the rat filled tunnels of New York City, but I figured that I figured that you guys could wait a little bit. Yeah. I would have done that had there not been cell service in the L tunnel for me to tell you that I'm late. Thank you. Uh with no notoriously bad L. She was uh I I actually Nirov just wrote a really important blog piece that has a lot to do with AI, but but before I do that, you had another big announcement last week. That's right. Uh so okay, I'm gonna be a little frank. The uh framework 13 and 16 were, you know, a little cl in order to be modular, they have to be a little, I don't know, kind of clunky, a little bit uh I mean, I've been very happy with my thirteen uh uh but people complained, you know, and their battery life wasn't great. And I think you saw an opportunity you announced basically a MacBook killer last week. Is it as modular? Is it as upgradable? It is every bit as modular, and we actually still ship a screwdriver in the box. But the the whole idea here is it is to some extent you can look at the original 13 and the 16 and call that maybe like enthusiast grade product. And that's very, very heavily targeted towards the power user, the DIY, or the tinkerer, the enthusiast, the computer builder. And we did that knowing that we had to do that because we could serve those audiences really well. Like we could build a very, very modular machine with the parts and access that we had into the supply base with the scale of RD capabilities, with the funding that we had available to us as a very, very early stage startup. We could build the ideal enthusiast laptop. And we believe we did succeed at doing that . And now, six years into that, five years into shipping these products, we're operating at a scale, we have the funding, we have the RD capability, we have the supplier relationships, that we can build not just the ideal enthusi ast laptop, but the ideal power user and developer laptops. And that means very much competing head-to-head with Apple against the MacBook Pro. Unibody aluminum. That's right, full CNC aluminum. Yeah. Full custom display, um using Intel's new processor, so very power efficient, new custom battery. Basically, Panther lakes you're getting uh people are r going crazy over the battery like Yeah, the battery life is incredible. Intel did a great job this generation on efficiency. One of the things we've always talked about with Intel and the and the Panther Lake, and it was true with the Lunar Lake before it, was that the OEMs are doing a lot of uh special coding to make these processors work properly. Things like the lid closing and the and the and the thing turns off and then turns on when the lid opens. People, companies like Lenovo and Dell have such special relations hips with Intel, they're able to do that. Were you able to get that kind of access to Intel and and able to do those modifications? Yeah, we actually have a very strong relationship with Intel now after five or six generations of products working with them. We've got direct engineering support from the team there. And we engage very early. So for example, this Panther Lake system we have here, we've been working for over a year now with the team at Intel to get early access, start doing our development, start doing software development around that platform. And that means that after that full year of development, we get to ship a very polished system, not just on the Windows side, but also on the Linux side as well. Unfortunately you've done such a good job with the original thirteen and I've kept it up to date . It's really I want this bad. I want this so badly, but I I I can't really justify it because I've been able to take the original and upgrade it. That's the mission. You know, you kind of done too too good a job, you know. And it is cross compatible, so even back to the original thirteen, you can't upgrade piece by piece to get the new features and functionality. Okay. Except for this compelled to upgrade because Leo owns more computers than any person I know. I've been hovering my finger over the button. Actually how what is the delay now? You've had such demand on it. We did, yeah, we actually went way above forecast on the sale so far. So we're sold into August right now for our pre-order batches. So yeah, we should have to do it you better get in line. I'm gonna end up doing it. I don't know the way framework works is they do batches and when you order it, you'll be entered into a batch, then you'll get an email when that batch starts to enter production. And so you kind of know when you're gonna get it, they give you a prediction . So if I ordered it now, I'd be getting it in August or September. That's right. Yeah. The nice thing is you can put a deposit down and they don't charge you until they're ready to ship it. So and the deposits a is it still a hundred bucks. Yeah it's still a hundred dollars. Yeah. I mean you guys you just really thank you. Really uh it's I've got a I've got a quick weird question. Um Dell was never framework. However, I'm old enough to remember when you could configure your machine going off the assembly line and you had a sense of um person al uh of it serving your personal needs and desires. Did Dell screw up by leaving that or at their scale it just wasn't possible? Yeah, this is an interesting one. There is still some custom to order capability across actually a lot of the big PC brands on some of their models, not necessarily all of their models. I think also they've kind of come to terms with the supply chain and go-to-market reality that if you pre-bake a config and then you know push it out into the channel into retail especially that you can scale up your volumes. Um of course that comes at that sacrifice to the personal touch of uh really making it yours so the real reason you're on despite the fact that Oh yeah. It really was just because I wanted to talk to you and thrill. He is in fact a fanboy. I'm a big fanboy. Uh you said something that was very provocative. You said personal computing is dead. Tell us about it. What? Wait a minute. What? It was kind of this uh it's this thing that's just kind of been building over the course of months, seeing just this combination of changes in the world all playing out in parallel with each other, the rise of cloud services and subscription models that kind of form this new wave of computing, like subscribing to cloud or open AI, and that becoming your interface, becoming the way that you interact with your computer and the actual physical thing you're holding on to becoming a little bit more of that terminal into someone else's model and someone else's computer sitting out in a data center somewhere. And then that being paired with the downstream ramification of those data centers gobbling up all that silicon, of the machines, the hardware they actually can own, becoming harder and harder to own just purely for for price reasons. The memory price is going crazy, CPU prices, storage prices, and those two things playing together, against of course this you know now multi-decade backdrop of computers becoming more locked down, both from a hardware perspective and from a software perspective, it felt very clear to me that the way that we've thought about computing over the course of decades is not necessarily going to hold, that if we fast forward a couple of years, having a lockdown dumb terminal that's your window into someone else's computer that they own for you in the cloud that you are subscribed to may actually become the default. And so that was kind of the genesis of the statement of personal computing as we know it is dead. It may actually be dead. And then for us as a company, as a framework, if our entire mission, our entire purpose of existence is consumer rights, giving you ownership, giving you power over your own computing. What does that mean for us? What do we need to do as a company in this environment? And for us, it's really doubling down on you should be able, if you want to own your computer, you should be able to own your computer. We want to make sure you can own your computer all the way through the software stack, all the way through the hardware stack. And even in a world where your interface is AI, we want to make sure that you can run that AI and have that be your AI rather than something that you're renting from the cloud. You're right. The industry is asking you to own nothing and be happy. That's right. A little uh throwback to Steve Jobs, computers are no longer a bicycle for the mind, that was his famous phrase. They're becoming this is so sad, the self-driving car that takes you directly to the destination. I think for many users that's not sad. That's exactly what they want. That's right. And that that was part of the the this manifesto is that you could look at that and say, like, actually that's kind of nice that like I don't have to think about it, I don't have to worry about it, it's just going to work for me. But at the same time, you're it goes back to this walled garden philosophy. Like you can be happy in the walled garden , but if you know about the existence of the world outside of that garden, you might feel very limited and constrained in there. Yeah. Well, and that's exactly why I bought the desktop, is because I wanted to run my own AI models locally on a machine that was capable. You know, knowing that they're not quite as good as the Frontier models yet. They'd probably always be a little bit behind. But they're good enough. What are people using now uh on frameworks uh desktops uh as their local models if they are using local models. Yeah, we see Quencoder being very popular. The new Gemma models are actually very strong from Google. Um we'll see what Meta comes up with. I think they're they're not gonna give up on trying to trying to be competitive in that space. Llama's fallen a bit behind, but I think Meta's gonna have something big there um coming. But a lot of the interesting models are actually coming from the the big labs in China, which has been a very interesting dynamic to see. Yeah, I have a GLM subscription from Z dotai and it's actually pretty surprisingly uh good. I feel like maybe 'cause they distilled Opus just a little bit. Uh but nevertheless it they're they're pretty good. What do you use personally? Do you have a local AI running? Yeah, I I have uh actually I have two boxes I keep in my desk, one running Windows and one running currently Fedora, those switch between different distros. And they run different like I've open claw on one, I think I have Ermys running on the other. And then usually I use something like Quencoder just uh just to play with it. Uh mostly for um yeah, just general toy box sandbox type uses. I don't uh yet I don't plug in our framework company data in the Actually, not if you're running it locally. That's the whole thing. That's why we're one thing, one piece of news that came out uh last week or the week before is that th ird parties are also making there's a third party motherboard uh for the framework. Uh yeah, we've got a couple now. We've got uh actually they're kind of related companies company called Deep Computing that's making risk five main boards and Oh that's cool. Yeah, very cool to see. We now have two generations of RISC-V and also a company called Metacomputing that's done an ARM-based main board, which is also great to see. Yeah, very exciting. Paris, I I know you had to come in late. Is there uh anything you you wanted to uh ask about or is this uh I've kind of monopolized this. I was gonna say I feel like you guys really I mean you can't compete with uh expert in this like Leo, given his extensive chairman of the August. I'm sorry. Just keep talking to him out beyond that um where do you see computing going uh now that you've c declare PCs dead sure um uh just speculate a little bit yeah something that that I've been thinking a lot about actually is just this idea of being a modern participant in society, in let's say an advanced society, how much compute, how much memory, how much storage do you need to be allocated to you as an individual to be able to operate in civilization. And you could look at it right now and say like, you know, we we're we're here we're all the four of us are all here in America, we're, you know, operating professional jobs here and maybe we can survive a year ago or a few years ago, we could have survived with let's say like a few tens of gigabytes of memory, a few, maybe a few terabytes of storage allocated to us, um, even for including what's amortized in the cloud for the cloud services that we run. And you know some amount of compute. And year over year over year, that number is going to grow very, very quickly. The amount of of s of just pure silicon that needs to be activated against each of us as individuals for us to be participants in society is just is just going through the roof. And so for us as we think about what does that mean if we're going to give you the power to own your data, own your compute, own your AI personally, what do we need to be able to build for you in a world where to be a modern participant in society, you need a terabyte of uh of memory and multiple terabytes of storage and a very large amount of compute, is it even plausible for us to build that box that you could sit on your desk that serves that level of compute to you? Where does it where does the buck where does it end? Where does it end? And maybe we're all we all just get uploaded in the case. I was just saying when do we I'm volunteering how does it not uh scale infinitely? That's right. Yeah, I think that's maybe that's the end point. Yeah, we all get uploaded and we'll somehow in framework If you look at these laptop pros, you've done some really as always aesthetic things, the uh the the keyboards, people are loving the multicolor keyboards, the the bezels. You're really uh it's more than it's more than a geek uh laptop. It's a real statement. It's really it's really quite beautiful. It isn't I wanted to order the X uh Ultra X nine That sold out in like an hour on the on the day of announcement. Isn't that telling that the most expensive uh skew was the one that went away right away? Yeah. People want power. Did you guys expect that? We did. During the announcement that we just had a pretty limited quantity of of those. It's five point one gigahertz. Yeah, it's put it's really pushing limits. Uh but it yeah, people obviously they want the power, so we sold out of those the four than anything else. Or is Intel. And you can buy RAM, it's expensive, but uh but they have managed to find a way and it's not as expensive as it could be, let's put it that way. Yeah. Um same thing with the SSD s. Good. All right. Well I'm in the uh batch eleven. So that's pretty good. Do you ever think of doing, I don't know, a fallen ? We get the ask a lot. Yeah, there's if we when we're whenever we do an ask for products, an ask for like what product should framework build. There's usually like three or four that rise to the top. Phone is one. Printer is usually up there on the list. And then we get stuff like a small projector that projects in your hand so that you could exist beyond foam. That idea has clearly gone so well. And then like stuff like toaster ends up being high on lots of people's people like blenders, like a plastic. Yeah, better toaster. Gosh. Yes. Put the toaster in the car. A phone would be a phone. That is the one thing where you really are in the walled garden. It's very things like the Fairphone, but it's very difficult. Yeah, Fairphone's done excellent work competing against the giants in the space. For us, actually, we look at the phone and see that again it's yeah, it's a it's a hard product to build, it's hard product to get right. And it's again not maybe not as much a hardware challenge, a technical hardware challenge. It's a there's a big software challenge there, and then there's a very big go-to-market challenge to compete in the smartphone space. I don't need H DMI. Wow. I'm going all in, man. What's the plan for framework? Are you guys eventually looking I know I know you're venture backed, are you eventually looking for an exit or do you want to stick it solo for the time being? The the key for us, for me personally, is that we is I don't look at this as a financial outcome that we're chasing. It's really the mission outcome of going category by category and fixing as many categories as we can as quickly as we can and building install base and building market share and building ecosystems in each of these categories. And then the financial outcome is whatever it is. And if obviously if we're succeeding at this, we're building a self-sustaining company. We can fund our own scaling into these categories. We can basically dictate the financial outcome that we want. I think I mean I've been through an acquisition, I will say it's not you have to let go of the going through an acquisition gives you it uh it looks Framework is a very spiky target. Not deliberately, but it is a spiky target, but yeah, very much we're not looking for an acquisition. Well bless you, Nerv. You've done an amazing job, an amazing product. Uh and you're fighting the good fight. Uh uh and kind of uphill, frankly, uh against a lot of uh industry trends that are not as good for consumers. So we are very grateful. And I know I'm speak uh Cory Doctor would say the same thing. Uh well done. Bravo. Thank you. Uh Nerov Patel, founder, CEO of uh framework at frame. work. Don't go order the pro yet because I haven't pressed the button. So hold on till I get mine and then you can go order yours because I think you're gonna want one. Nirav, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it. Great to meet you. Oh, that was a thrill and a half. Uh next week I'll be in Hawaii and uh I th I don't know I think we're gonna put the Chris Stoke Walker interview in there and I'm sorry you I'm sorry I missed that too. It ended up being wise that I called it because I was planning on taking that interview while on the Metro North back from Connecticut and to the train was packed. Oh good. So it would have been an awkward record for all of us. Can't you all be quiet? I'm on a podcast. As long as you're not in the quiet. I mean they don't on the Metro North there are no quiet cars. Man, there's only chaos. And the Japanese uh bullet train, there is a quiet car. You damn well better be quiet. They will Yeah, I'd like to see that that she's trying to do the podcast on the quiet car, getting shushed by everybody. That'd be fun to wat ch. They are sound Nazis. Shh. And then we also have Troy Hunt , which is very exciting of Have I Been Pwned coming up? My the best looking Australian guy since Duranoki . And then uh we got some good people uh on the uh slated in the future. So um some really good guests coming up on uh intelligent machines. Let me do the commercial and uh we will get to the AI news in just a bit . Our show today brought to you by Scribe . You know, every time we on board somebody new , we would re-explain the same tools from scratch because there was no documentation. Right? Most teams struggle to scale because the actual workflows aren't captured anywhere. And manual documentation is too inefficient to keep up. The result is fragmented processes, inconsistent execution, and no reliable way to improve how work gets done over time. And that's what today's sponsor, Scribe, does best. Scribe is a workflow AI platform that captures any workflow in real time and turns it into document ation automatically. No manual writing, no manual screenshots, no starting from scratch every time somebody new joins the team. 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Uh yeah, so so um uh uh generally a lot of worry at well went Google went down and then up, Amazon went down and up. Or Google went up and down then down. Yeah, and meta went down and down. Um nervousness about AI spending, about cap uh everywhere, but the results are amazing. Yeah. Um for both uh for Google and Amazon. Yeah, they're doing very well. But as as you know , uh Amazon's committed capital expenditures of about a hundred eighty billion dollars next year, which is one reason the stock market's going . Um I didn't see this in your Amazon's also doing that. Alphabet's also committing 180 billion. Wow. Wow. And that's probably all data centers, right? I mean I'm I didn't see this in your uh orderly open I saw it in Jeff's which like it's a big week I feel like for financial news about these companies, especially given the Wall Street Journal report that uh my former colleague Burber Jin broke. And we're trying to get Berber on to talk about that, yeah. OpenAI's pressure that it's facing in the lead up to the R. Why did they since they're a private company, they didn't need to let that be out. They didn't let that out. It was leaked. It really wasn't leaked. Okay. So the Times also has a story. Um so OpenAI is uh missed its internal targets. It wanted to hit a billion active users by the end of twenty twenty five. And they st as far as we know still haven't done it. But remember the last time they announced it was eight hundred million. So it's they're close. But they've also I mean the highlights are that they missed monthly revenue targets in earlier this year repeatedly. Uh the World Street Journalist put a number on the size of the mist publicly, but the framing is basically that growth is decelerating. It's not just falling short of stretch goals. Uh they also noted that the board is now more closely examining the company's data center deals in recent months and has questioned Sam Altman's efforts to secure even more computing power despite the business slowdown. And as Andre Citron points out, that's bad news for Oracle. Yeah. It's bad news all around. OpenAI, as you know, is getting ready for an IPO, and this is exactly the kind of news that uh they don't want better now than later, I guess. I mean that's why that's why I wonder whether it was really a leak. I don't think so. I think actually they'd be much better after the o the IPO than before, right? Okay, putting on my reporter hat. When so we get a story like this, obviously all of the sourcing in this anonymous it's all multiple people familiar with the issue. That means someone and this is all about specifically disputes between Sarah Fryers and other executives and Sam Altman's team. And then kind of going back and forth on specifically, there's this paragraph the spending scrutiny is constraining Altman's once boundless ambitions ahead of an initial public offering that could take place by the end of the year. Fryer and other executives are seeking to control costs and instill more discipline in the business at times, putting them at odds with their CEO . Putting my reporter hat on, you have to think, how did this story get here? Obviously, Berber is a phenomenal reporter. He's got great sourcing in these companies, but the only sort of people who'd know all of this information are gonna be high, high level executives that are in some way intimately involved with this or briefed on it, to be able to have multiple people familiar. It's probably one of the two camps leaking it again. You have to think why would somebody give this to the Wall Street leak this information to the Wall Street Journal? What would be the purpose for them? My guess is that it's people in Fryers camp who are trying to actually get these constraints to go through or feeling opposition um and want the backing of pressure. Or maybe it's people in the Altman camp who want uh to force Fryer's camp and Fryer to have to make a joint statement saying, oh no, no, we're not doing that at all, which is of course what they said in this piece to kind of dispel these rumors that they snark. We are not sure And it's like well clearly there's some division because one of your two sides is leaking stuff to the journal to try and turn the heat up on the other side. And so I think this just speaks to a broader disagreement happening between these two camps and the intense pressures of trying to launch an IPO for a company with costs this astronomically high. But is there is there also uh I'm trying to see whether there's kind of a sandbagging strategy too. That months before your IPO, you want to reduce the expectations so that by the time the IPO comes around, you raise them again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's also I think we should also point out there is a target on OpenAI's back from a lot of people, including Elon Musk, who is right now on the score testifying in Twitter. Testifying there and in Twitter. Yeah. Yeah. The judge said, would you knock it off on the uh social postings? Both of you didn't say it quite like that, but uh but he basically said that. Uh Anthropic is also gonna do an IPO, and Anthropic and uh OpenAI are on the bitterest competition since Coke vs. Pep si. I mean, these guys uh are really at each other's throats. And I think that both Sam Altman and Dario Omode of uh Anthropic think it's a zero-sum game, one winner and one loser. But but a lot of people would suffer consequences of a uh open AI collapse. That would be the trigger that would, you know, pop the bubble, the A if there is an AI bubble, that that would be the trigger that would pop the bubble. Uh-oh. Here she comes. The bubble. Ha ha ha onna pop out . Oh god . I forgot about that. This is the clip that accidentally showed up for a brief second Just a second . We love an we love a I'm happy that I finally get one. Um it's so great, Anthony. Uh but I think, yeah, to your point, Leo, I think that there are reasons why people on both sides of this um debate, even within OpenAI, would feel motivated to try and leak this for those exact reasons. Like if you're on the Altman camp, you're like, well we have to get as much compute as possible. We have to uh build as and scale as quickly as possible, or else the bubble might pop and this might all be for naught. And you could see from the fryer camp that they'd be like, well, we actually have to rein in our spending and make sure that we have are able to meet some reasonable expectations before we hit the IPO, or else the bubble could pop. Meanwhile Anthropic is looking at a higher um private market valuation right now than open AI. Aaron Powell Yeah, Anthropic is very popular right now. But I should point out, much like Coke and Pepsi, there isn't all that much to distinguish the two uh models. And uh it could swing. Shhh, I didn't say anything, Claude. I'm not talking to you. Uh in fact, this week uh OpenAI released Spud , their five point five chat GPT model. They also released new image models. People have been very impressed with but they do this in response, you know, to four point seven, which came out the week before. Uh let's not forget the Chinese companies like Deep Seek just released version four. I'll we'll talk about that a little later. Um it is very competitive out there. And I don't know if I don't know if the winner is clear at this point. Um and so there in other words, uh there's a lot of chum in the water. And I think the closer and closer the two like the more interchangeable the two products are, the more that these business fundamentals ultimately end up being incredibly meaningful for either company's ability to stay alive and win this race. Because ultimately both of them are hurdling have to hurtle towards an IPO given the amount they've raised. They can't continue, you know, to be private . And it's like, well, how is the market going to react if you whenever they have to file an S1 and it comes out that they're burning God knows how much every single month. Well but again look at the um quarterly results uh from uh Google, Amazon and Microsoft. All three are burning lots of cash building data centers. They're also in a head-to-head battle between uh you know Azure, AWS, and uh Google Cloud. Literally, I mean they are fighting head to head. And uh I think the market generally app roves. Yeah, and their results are well on and and for Amazon and and and Apple, I mean uh uh Alphabet, their results are amazing. Flew past the expectations. Right. So even though the stock drops, you know, this is this always happens. Buy on the rumors, sell on the uh news, and this is the news, right, is the results. I think the market's pretty tolerant of these big cap ex expenditures because there's generally a feeling, rightly or wrongly, that we've got to build all this compute capacity, that this is the way forward with AI. Well that's the difference. And OpenAI and Anthropic are new That I'm guessing all signs point to are losing a lot of money every month, every quarter, every year, and probably will continue to lose a lot a lot of money for a long time until the Aaron Powell The other data point that's confusing to me, maybe you guys can think of a rationale is that Microsoft kind of freed OpenAI from the chains. Remember, uh Microsoft was the initial big but after after Elon, Microsoft gave OpenAI ten billion dollars in Azure credits, they're running on the Azure Cloud. Uh and and really made a big commitment and they're reselling uh ChatGPT uh as co-pilot and so forth. Microsoft and OpenAI have agreed that just the other day to drop the software giant's exclusive right to sell OpenAI models. So immediately OpenAI turned to Amazon and said, and you get ChatGPT, and it's on now on AWS, which a lot of people who use AWS are very, very happy about. Um Microsoft no longer has to pay a rev share on open AI products, it re-sells on its cloud. What about the AGI clause? And that's that was one of the most interesting things I brought up with Paul Thurat. There was this clause, which we always all of us thought was bizarre, that should open AI reach AGI aren't uh uh uh superintelligence, you know, um the singularity. Uh we don't there's no even good definition for AGI. Should it reach whatever that is, AGI, and they had third parties that would validate that, that the uh agreement would dissolve, right? That the open AI would get to go on its merry way. Uh that's gone. And some people said, well, that's what's keeping uh open AI from announcing AGI. I don't know if that's the case. It's meaning the whole thing is meaningless. We never understood why the clause was in there in the first place. It was actually added uh later to the agreement. Um anyway . I feel like we don't really know what's going on at all. Amazon got freed from some sho I I 'm sorry. I think Microsoft, in my view, Microsoft got the better end of that deal. They were they were they they were desperate at the beginning to have some AI. They went to open AI. It seemed clever at the time. They got kind of shackled with it and now they're free to do what they want to do and open AI is free to do what it wants to do. It makes more sense. Yeah. It's uh Yeah. Okay. I w I mean I I don't understand any of it, to be honest with you. It it just feels like uh people are running I'm curious as to your guys' thoughts, not to derail slightly, but I I''mm curious as your guys' thoughts on this thing that I've seen running around the forums lately, which is um I'll post the link in the Discord right now. My GitHub co-pilot this week announced a increase in the model multipliers for its annual kind of Copilot Pro and Copilot Pro Plus subscribers. And a lot of average users seem to be pointing to this as a possible like smok ing gun about how much actually uh these models and the tokens are costing companies. Like for instance, they changed the multiplier for uh usage for Claude O pus four point seven from a modifier of seven point five to twenty seven, which is completely out of whack with every other model. Basically the Claude um credits or the multipliers have increased like exponentially and all the other ones have like I mean they've increased like six times or something like that, but nothing as m much as a jump from like seven to twenty seven. Does this m make sense to you in some way it doesn't to me? Or is this , as the commenters seem to be crying, a sign that all this AI is way more expensive than we actually think it is Yeah, it might be making the pricing more accurate. Uh I think it's also the case these companies uh need money badly. I think the biggest they're really the biggest constraint right now is just pure compute constraint. Those those data centers aren't getting built uh uh as fast. They keep announcing new deals, but they're not getting built that fast. The we're running out of hardware um chips uh do you think there's any hoardering of hoarding of the stuff going on? Oh yeah, for sure. So there's there's a lot that's unused. So we don't really know what the d what the necessary demand is. And there's a debate about whether superscaling is the path to the next university. Well that debate is a side debate that is not widely accepted by the current frontier model companies, right? Trevor Burrus The current main ones, but but but there's some. So that's a debate that uh you this is that old, you know, Yan Lakoon Fei Fei Lee debate, but uh but it is not what the uh what the um leading edge companies are doing. Well even Dennis is changing this too. It's yeah, Demis says it too, of deep mind. But uh I think generally the the big players of the generally are all saying right now more compute, the better lesson is learned. Uh the LLMs are doing the job, and we just need to throw more power at them. More power. Whether they're right or wrong, we won't know. We can't know. Um , you know, I mean there's no ev let me put it this way, there isn't a lot of evidence they're wrong. There's speculation. Uncle Leo, since you were old enough to remember this , the overbuild of fiber in the country . What was that sequence like where there was there was euphoria about building, there was a huge need to invest in it, then there was a crash, but then we ended up using it. Is there a similar path that could be here ? Well that's a good thing. An infrastructure bubble to a financial bubble. And that this like the fiber overbuild or the railroad overbuild is a infrastructure um bubble. And so you get at the end of the day when the bubble bursts, you get the infrastructure no matter what, and that's what happened with fiber, that's what happened with railroads, and it presumably is what's going to happen with data centers. Maybe I think that there isn't a lot of historical precedent for what AI is going to do to the economy. I think part of this is really all a lot of this scrambling is that no one knows what the impact of AI is going to be on the economy and on jobs uh and business and software . It's and you see all these theories. It's gonna kill open source. It's gonna be the best thing that ever happened to open source. It's gonna be a security nightmare. It's gonna solve all security problems. No one knows. And there's just this great uncertainty. And it's being used as an excuse to do layoffs that probably aren't related to AI. There's AI washing going on. Right. Although I think you probably can safely say when companies like Meta and Snap lay off thousands of employees, their plan is to make up for some of that with AI. And I I I think that's for sure true. Or they're they're abandoning things that they don't think are as um potentially profitable and they want to put whatever resources they have into AI. Especially since the pandemic, but m increasingly, I feel like over the last eight years have made it a kind of a regular practice to have annual layoffs of some sort. It's just part of the business plan. And they're still up from where they were. Right. We overhired and and and now they're right sizing, if you don't mind me. So so so the point is we don't have data yet, to your point about data yet of anything. We don't know what's gonna work, we don't know what's gonna happen. There's a lot of uncertainty. We don't know if we're gonna get oil from the Strait of Hormuz. There is a lot of uncertainty in the world right now. And uh I think that a lot of this is just thrashing as companies and investors and venture capitalists and stock market investors are trying to figure out w what's gonna happen. I don't think anybody knows. It's just a lot of I think to a point that you often make on the show, Leo, which is kind of comparing it to the Internet. I think that some part of people's what you might describe as an overreaction to AI that a lot of people if you're thinking about it, a lot of industries didn't accurately predict or prepare for what the advent of the Internet would do. to their businesses For instance, frankly media companies should have been thinking about this and how they didn't. They just didn't. They didn't know what to do and they didn't spend nearly enough time thinking about what they should do and pot thinking of ways to prepare for it. And so I think what we're seeing now is an overcorrection to that. Right. Uh this is one of many, you know, people were thinking would be like crypto or uh NFTs or something like that before, but that was obviously smaller. This is such a potentially transformative tech nology that everyone is freaking out and devoting so much energy to trying to suss out the precise impact this is going to have on the world and the ramifications of that because they're afraid if it ends up like the internet, it's gonna be a disaster for them. Aaron Powell Well and in a non-financial vein of the same kind, people like us, we thought the internet was gonna be great. We didn't see all the harms and the hazards that the internet was going to present. So everybody's thinking, geez, we we missed the boat on that. But financially and and and societally, maybe we should plan. But the the big difference here is this is happening at least 10 times faster than the internet happened. This is the internet didn't, you know, the what was the A when was the AOL summer, Jeff? 95, 96 ? Uh that was one big transition where a lot of non -techie people suddenly got on the internet . It still took another ten years before the web really kind of took off. Blogging didn't take off till the early twenty first century. I mean, that I would say it was a it was at least a decade of development before the internet got to where we are today, maybe 20 years. That's going to be compressed to a year or two in AI. I mean, this is happening really fast. So if you weren't prepared for the internet , you are not gonna be prepared for AI. I agree with you the exact your premise exactly that people are saying, well, we gotta prepare. But it's moving so fast you're going like what what what what what do I what do I do? What do I do? Well here here's the other piece of it too. So Sam Altman put out his Principles, another one of his work essays. Yeah, another one. Man, that guy's pretty much and I wrote a I wrote a brief piece just trying to remind that in the end the technologists don't have the technology. And he thinks he can control everything, including government policy about this. Yeah. And um he can't. And it's gonna be out of his hands. Right. And government's always behind. And uh I I just listened to a to a podcast about a r uh with the authors of a book called Muskism . It's a name. It really is. And it's a really interesting the premise there is that Musk's view is that he combines business and government. Musk depends upon government. He does? Yes, right. For for rockets, for satellite transmission, uh dough, all of it for the few. From us, from taxpayers. And there's a and there's a belief there of control. But these guys and part of the reason that people hate AI is because of the AI boys. Well, people also hate AI because they're scared. Yeah, but there was another survey, a bunch of surveys that came out this week, uh I put it in the rundown somewhere, um, where if you look at the the um fear of AI in the US or the the the the the the confidence in AI in the US is in the 30% range. In China it's in the 85% range. In Germany, it's in the forty-five percent range. And so the the the the um the narratives here of the extremes, of the uh extreme optimism and extreme pessimism and doomsterism have taken over, and there isn't, to your earlier point about not having the data, we also don't have the the mindset to look at this san ely. Well, I can tell you why we're more scared here in the US than we are in China. They have a safety net. We have no societal safety net. True that. All of those people can be out of work. They're going to be on the street. And one could argue this is a time for a controlled, I'm not suggesting this here, but if you you know a controlled uh economy, um AI will will grow there faster than here. It'll get all the uh as Jensen Wong said, they'll get all the power they want, they'll get all the resources they want . And they're going to be able to do that. And any prediction or attempt to prepare for it. I don't know, I should get Amy Webb on 'cause that's her job is preparing companies and governments for the future. I I think any attempt to prepare for it is is futile because we don't it's it's this is chaos. But aren't you singing a slightly new tune, Leo, in the sense that you've scolded both of us saying this thing is the arrival, it's everything. And it is. And unless you write so I didn't say it's gonna be a wonderful world as a result. I don't know. I think part of what Jeff is getting at is uh there have been discussions previously where you've kind of poo-pooed the idea of uh hand like wringing your hands over what the impact of AI is going to be, that it's already here and you don't need to be posturing about it. But I d I do think we all are kind of in agreement that people are worried because it is here and happening and they're trying to do it better. That's not inconsistent with what I've just said. Yeah, there's no time for hand wringing is you we don't know what's gonna happen. So you can it's a philosophical exercise to kind of plan for the future, but but good luck. All we know is that the future is going to happen. And it's going to be, I think, extremely disruptive, uh, chaotic. It might be good. It might not be. Um I uh, you know, I mean uh I think it's very you know so some of what I drives my point of view is I'm just uh very interested in it. Yeah and I so I'm not trying to I'm not trying to um come up with a uh con uh consequence of what happens because I don't I don't know. It's gonna be crazy, man. So line one forty four is the button. Oh okay. Uh um we will have more in just a bit. Less philosophic more news coming up on intelligent machines brought to you today by OutSystems, the number one AI development plat form. So you know you want to incorporate AI . You want to, you want to bridge that enterprise gap to your agentic future. But where do you begin? How do you do it? And how do you do it safely, reliably, consistently . Out systems helps businesses bridge that gap to their future where the constraints of the past give way to unlimited capacity and scale. Out systems enables businesses to build AI agents that can actually do work . It's possible. Things like take actions, make decisions, and integrate with data rather than just, you know, answer questions. We're not talking chatbots here, folks. Out systems provides the only AI development platform that is unified, agile, and enterprise-proven. It's unified because you build, run, and govern apps and agents on that single out systems platform, right? 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Visit outsystems.comlas/hs twit to see how the world's most innovative enterprises use outsystems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and cost effectively without compromising reliability and security. That's O -U-T-S-Y-S-T-E-M-S.com slash T W I T to book a demo. Thank you, Ad Systems, for uh supporting intelligent machines. We appreciate it. And uh and uh you support us by, the way, dear listener, by going to that site with that address. So they know you saw it here, outsystems.com slash tw it . Uh so all right, money going back and forth, people throwing shade at one another. Uh the Pentagons use an anthropic. Uh Google says we've done a deal uh with the uh Pentagon. Uh they've signed a classified AI deal for quote any lawful government purpose. Google employees immediately petitioned Sundar Pachai. I think they were even before that. They'd petitioned Sundar. Hundreds of uh Google employees signed a letter against the idea after reports at Google's and talk with the Pentagon. So yes, that was before the talks resolved themselves into a deal. Uh I guess they didn't listen to the engineers. We'll see what happens on There's I don't I there's a lot of pro back and forth. I swear to God I haven't heard the testimony from today, but Elon Musk is on the stand. The Verge said he appeared yesterday more petty than prepared. He was unfocused and uncharming. Elon? Elon Well, Elizabeth Lapato wrote this story, said, you know, in in the the uh in the liability case, during his defamation suit, he turned on the charm. She said, I've s this is not the first time I've seen Musk in court. And the jury responded by finding him not guilty. Today The only times he showed real animation when it was when he was bragging about how much he'd done for OpenAI. Of course, the the suit is Elon said, I poured all this money open AI and then all of a sudden they go for profit and leave me out and I want my hundreds of billions of dollars. Pieces of the of the of the case got thrown out, pieces are left. What's at stake now? Do you do what the standing is? The piece that got thrown out was actually at the behest of Musk's own team , who said, uh we're we're not gonna go after the fraud part of this. They were they were going after open AI for defrauding Elon. They say we're not we're not gonna go after that. Um but they're still going after them saying uh you can't do this non fake nonprof saying first of all it,'s fake, this nonprofit move, and you can't separate the stuff that I invested in and my revenue, my supposed revenue from that by saying, well, you invested in the nonprofit part, we're just going to take those profits and move them over here, and you don't get any Elon. That's really essentially what it comes down to. During the discussions of how best to get OpenAI, the vast amounts of funding it would need for compute, there was a discussion of a for-profit arm with Musk . Um, but that's that's not why Musk got into it. He says I got into it because I had a conversation with Larry Page's scared the pants off of me. Because Larry Page says AI is the next species . And I'm speciist if I want to defend humans against AI. And Elon said, My God, when I heard that, I said, we've got to make sure Google doesn't get AGI before anybody else. Um But is the is the is the argument in the end you simply cannot convert to a full profit? Yeah, or if you do, I want a uh I want fifty five percent of the profit. Uh which is like a lot, hundreds of billions of dollars. Anyway, he's testifying he's still testifying presumably. You were muted, uh Paris. Presumably the cross examination is today. Oh, yep. Oh. You can hear me now. Here we are. Now we are. Yeah. I was saying he he's also asking for Sam Altman to be removed from the board. Oh yes. And everything, you know. This is this is a fight to the death. What's so what's the OpenAI's argument gonna be? The thing wouldn't have survived as a not-for-profit? We had to it's all about scale, rescale, we had to be profitable. From OpenAI's attorney says , We're here because Mr. Musk didn't get his way at OpenAI. That's what happened. He quit saying they would fail for sure. But my clients had the nerve to go on and succeed without him. He basically argues that much used funding promises to bully early OpenAI, trying to like merge open AI into Tesla, demanded fifty percent of ownership, and pulled five million quarterly donations mid negation negotiation. Casey Newton told NPR this is a clash of two enormous personalities and Elon Musk and Sam Altman. Sam Altman will take the stand later in this trial. And I think what's at stake is potentially the future of OpenAI and the future development of all AI. That might be a little bit hyperbolic. Well I mean I think that part of what he's getting at is that the one of the remedy figures is like $134 billion dollars kind of what they're looking for. And that's the same order of magnitude as open AI's like near term compute exposure. Uh so I guess if Musk was to win meaningfully, it would be yeah, like fatal to their roadmap. Well, clearly Musk wants to do that. Because remember, after all this, Musk started XAI and went right into a for-profit competitor that he's pouring billions of dollars into. And so this is a good thing. Is there any business to XII? I know you're surprised to hear me say that, Jeff. I can see the stunned look on you. Aren't I a subtle actor ? What ? But I mean we d we don't know, right? There's no there's nobody's making money at it yet. I mean I think there will be. But I think you're right. It might be like fiber and the railroads. It might be that you know, the railroads, all the companies that built the Transcontinental Railroad went went bankrupt. But we had the we had the tracks. We had the trains. I think the difference really is that the tracks don't go train Right. Yeah. That's a good point. I don't know what would happen. Well you'd you'd do it at some point. Nobody wants chat GPD four oh anymore. I went to the Museum of Industrial History in Bethlehem PA last weekend because they have a linotype there, so you know that transfer. They have huge pumps. They have a little tiny the the little tiny uh uh uh diesel engine that used to drive things around the steel mills. You can ride that for about twenty feet. Um you can go see, you can go on the catwalk and see the old huge blast furnaces. How long of a drive was it? Uh from from you, it's probably an hour and a half. Ooh. I'm gonna be doing that. When Leo comes, we could see the Amazon warehouse and go to Bethlehem. Leo, visit us . Could eat a sandwich made by yourself. What I was gonna do is you have a sandwich. And watching Dustin. Uh according to Alex Kantrowitz, also talking to NPR, Elon's goal in this is to just shut open AI down. Just because the money he gets it would go, he says, to a charity, not to he He doesn do'esnt want't he doesn't want money. He wants to put them out of business, which is one weird. The charity that's in his compound that houses all his children? Probably, yeah. The charity that yeah teaches his children how to read. I'm sure there's a legitimate charity. He doesn't need more money . I'm just trying to find out if anybody has reported on his testimony today, and I don't see anything. So uh if somebody finds a link, let me know. Because he was I mean I'm sure it court is recessed. It's in Oakland, so it's California time as 3 30. OpenAI uh may be doing a smartphone. I wonder if this is the Johnny Ive project, they gave him three point two. Well otherwise, what's he doing there? Right. Uh this is from uh Ming Chi Kuo, who is uh normally a supply chain analyst who reports on Apple, but he does have good sources in China in the supply chain. He says OpenAI is going to make a deal with Media Tech and Qualcomm for a processor. MediaTech makes a very good uh Chromebook processor, by the way, despite its kind of downmarket name. They're actually pretty good. Qualcomm , of course makes the Snapdragon. And the builder, the manufacturer would be Lux Share, which is a design contractor. They would be the system co-design and manufacturing pro partner. Don't don't don't worry about saving your pennies yet, mass production doesn't start till twenty twenty eight . But according to Ming Chiquuo, and again he it's the rumor, but he has very good sources in the supply chain. The idea of this phone is it will not have apps. It will have AI . And it w it will be an agentic phone that you will tell it what you want and it will do what you want. To Nero's exactly to Nero's point earlier in the show . Yeah. That you're not gonna own anything. You don't even own your apps. You don't even own it. Great, 'cause that's worked out really well with in terms of video games and media and everybody loves when they don't own anything and it can just be taken from you at any given point. Or you can be suddenly charged a subscription to have things like windshield wipers in your car. People have been clamoring to have a system like that, but for everything What's the number one music uh source in the world right now? It's it's either Spotify or iTunes in both cases. Because you're trapped buying the music. You're renting. Yeah, but you're trapped. You don't people don't want that, but that's what we ended up with. But do they not want it? They can still buy CDs. They can still buy digital copies of music. So you think it's good that No, I don't . I'm just saying that our set does is aware of this , but I don't think your mom and dad care. I mean I think my mom and dad care a lot whenever they're like, I could have just th you they used to take me to the store to buy windows. Used to. But now they and you pay one thing and you'd get Microsoft Office and now you gotta pay every month. Used to. But well I I agree with Microsoft Office, nobody I mean But n it's the Microsoft Office of the universe. No, I g I get it. I agree with you a hundred percent, but I'm just wondering if the general public I mean they seem pretty happy with Spotify. I mean I think I see this as a com mon complaint like in various social media from normies. No, but I see on like Reddit and Twitter. I'm sure if I was on inst uh on threads it would be there too. Like people the average person doesn't like that they have to pay a subscription I mean honestly, if you looked at the box price of Microsoft Office of six or seven hundred bucks, and then I said to you, or you get it for eight bucks a mont h with automatic updates. It looks like it's a better deal. Yeah, until you calculate how many months you're going to use it for. Well, if it's if you're paying a hundred bucks a year, but it would cost you six The other dynamic here is that there is a finite number of subscription dollars that people are willing to spend. That's an interesting point. Yes.. Yeah People are there is subscription. So lost new well, you know, screw it. I don't want my newspaper anymore. There was just a a survey out about people who live in news deserts and they don't have newspapers in their county and they don't notice. Right. And they don't want to pay for anybody and they find the news the way they want to find it. Paris is still buying DVDs, but Paris, you're in a very small minority. Almost everybody streams the movies. I'm not claiming that the people yearn to buy DVDs. I am saying that the people enjoy the Enjoy not paying money for anything. The people get mad whenever they realize they're paying for seven different streaming services to the people are mad that we're basically reinventing the cable bundle, but for every industry. Yes. And there's a certain point where as more and more parts of an industry become monthly subscriptions that like it reaches a saturation point. The average person can't pay hundreds of dollars a month for like everything, you know? Anthony also makes a good point. Piracy is probably also gonna be on the upturn, you know, because of all this. Is it though? It feels like piracy went away when you could stream stuff. I mean, anecdotally, I've started to see a lot more people pirate stuff or mention pirating online. I feel like uh as soon as it was easy just to pay, you know, whatever it was seven bucks a month for uh three billion records, people just stopped pirating. But now you have to do like twenty Subscriptions . But not for music. For music there's one. Yeah, but all the stuff. You know? Yeah, but the rest of the stuff they're gonna pay their qualifying Some of my friends one of my friends my friend who took me to the basketball game the other week tried to explain to me the amount of subscription services you have to subscribe to to watch most of the Knicks games that have people don't love that. Yeah. In the Philippines I paid $100 for the entire NBA season and I got every game. Jeez . That's a lot. $100 for the whole season. A hundred dollars for the whole season is here. YouTube TV is $80 a month. And that's not even a guarantee of every game. Right. Well, that's what the market will bear, probably in the Philippines, right? Yeah . Uh let's take a break. Intelligent machines on the air coming up . Let's talk about Oh, I don't know. He's submitting the wheel, folks. That's not the same thing. The man behind Alpha Go thinks AI is taking the wrong path. This is the deep mind discussion that you were talking about. Also , a LLM from 1930 . Um the pirate uh piracy is back. Is piracy back? Wow. Okay, so this is from Briggs. This is a YouTube channel. It says piracy is back. So it must be true. It's true. Uh Paris Martineau, here from uh Consumer Reports. Some point we got to do it working on. Can you talk about anything you're working on? Anything at all? It's coming soon. Soon and exciting. At some point we gotta talk about my problems with Claude this week because first time ever I've been real Yeah. I've been really experiencing the crunch of uh a new I do stuff with Claude every week. I want to hear what that is. beat Google what I was I'm finally ready to to do stuff from my book using all these things. Oh cool. Cool cool cool. That's Jeff Jarvis, author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis' new book, Hot Type. And now you're doing a whole series of books about AI. Intelligence from Bluesberry Academic, uh, Intelligence, AI, and Humanity. Intelligence, AI, and Humanity. Wow. When's that? When's when will that come out? Next year, because it takes forever books to write 'em. There's three people writing 'em right now. We've talked to two of them. Yep. Nice. Yeah, we have. Well, let's get the third on. Okay. By the way, wasn't Ian great last week? Ian was great. If you didn't hear the uh interview with Ian uh Bogost. Bogost, uh that was he was just great and I still can't get his name right. Why? I'm very good with names. I don't know why. I want to put the accent on the second syllable too. I agree. Yeah, I was wanna say Baghost, but it's Bag host. Ye ah. Um our show today brought to you by Zscaler, the world's largest cloud security platform. You know, we've talked about AI, the potential rewards of AI in business. Far Far too great to ignore right now, but uh it is a double-edged sword. The risks are also far too great to ignore the loss of sensitive data and attacks against enterprise-managed AI. And of course, gener ative AI also increases the opportunities for threat actors. They're using AI, just like you are. Helps them to create phishing emails that are indistinguishable from the real thing, to write malicious code, to autom ate data instraction? There were 1.3 million instances of social security numbers leaked to AI applications. And by the way, that's not like a hacker doing that. That's like your emplo yees putting proprietary company company information into an AI bot to get information, not thinking about the fact that that bot is now going to send that up to the uh home servers in China or wherever . Well, not with Zscaler. Zscaler is the most trusted AI security platform. Forty percent of Global 2000 companies use Zscaler. Five , get this, five hundred billion transactions, half a trillion transactions are secured daily with more than 9.4,000 global customers. Wow . Zscaler carries a net promoter score of more than 75. That's 150% higher than the average SAS. They're doing something right. Check out with CIVA, the director of Seurcity and Infrruastcture at SWA RA says about using Zscaler to prevent AI attacks. With Zscalar being in line in a security protection strategy, helps us monitor all the traffic. So even if a bad actor were to use AI, because we have a tight security framework around our endpoint helps us proactively prevent that activity from happening. AI is tremendous in terms of its opportunities, but it also brings in challenges. We're confident that Zscaler is going to help us ensure that we're not slowed down by security challenges, but continue to take advantage of all the advancements. Thank you, Siva. With Zscaler Zero Trust Plus AI, you can safely adopt generative AI and private AI. You can boost productivity across the business without the risk. Their zero trust architecture plus AI helps you reduce the risks of AI-related data loss and prote cts against AI attacks to guarantee greater productivity and compliance. Learn more at zscaler.com slash security. That's zscaler.com slash security. We thank him so much for supporting intelligent machines . Intelligent machines. So China's gonna block Meta's acquisition of MANIS . MANIS, which is a a gentic AI company, was started in China, but then they moved to Singapore , a neutral nation. It's uh actually called Singapore Washing, and the Chinese government would have n would not hear of it. So they China says the core DNA of Mannis was developed domestically and we are gonna block Meta's proposed two billion dollar acquisition of Manaus, which I'm disappointed because I was looking forward to using Manaus. It's a very interesting, it's kind of like a secure enterprise open claw. What happens to Manaus now, I wonder? That's a really good question. Uh it's uh fast companies acting like, well, that's that. Like okay . Um, you know, Meta's gonna kinda pull back and uh I don't know. China's block on the meta manisteel would likely be viewed as a new flashpoint in the escalating competition between the US and China for AI dominance. Yep. Yep. And there is a summit coming up next month uh in US China. Maybe that will be one of the topics. I don't know. There seems like there's more important things to talk about. Like TikTok. Like TikTok, Australia speaking of which has unveiled a two and a quarter percent levy, a tax, if you will, on Meta, Google, and TikTok's local revenues, unless they decide they're gonna pay news publishers. Is this a Rupert Murdoch deal? Oh yes. Absolutely. Oh yes. Pure pure Rupert. Pure It's the news bargaining incentive. didn't work because Meta said, okay, we're not gonna have news. And Google said, no, we're not gonna do this anymore. And so now whether or not you have news, they want you to pay because they think you're evil and digital. Oh, that's so sneaky. So the original idea was, oh, you pay us for the news you use, but now that you're not using news, you just pay us, period. Yeah. We deserve it. It's ours. Oh wow. That is evil. And uh you saw this story obviously uh in uh Wired magazine, Will Knight writing. The man behind Alpha Go thinks AI is taking the wrong path. Actually, this is not Demise Hasibis, who's also said the thing , it's David Silver. And he has a new uh AI company . Uh he he developed the the program that beat the best Go players, right? The Alpha Go . He has since founded a company called Ineffable Intelligence. Okay. I did consider that as a name for this show, but I reject it as being horrible. Ineffable intelligence. Does that mean you can't eff it? You can't. It's uneffable. It's ineffable. What is ineff ineffable means what? It means uh like you can't describe it. It's like uh it's ineffable. Yeah, it's out there in the ethos . It's I always kind of think of it as a a cloud that if I try to grab it flips through my fingers. We can't just be utterly . It's ineffable. Well that's kind of the that's kind of where we are with definitions of AGI, yeah. Yeah , I can't describe it. It's too great. In fact, that's exactly what it's supposed to do is build more general forms of AI superintelligence. Now, the I think the article's a little misguided because Silver is not abandoning LLMs. He's focusing on reinforcement learning, which is a fine-tuning that happens after the model is built. And it was, in fact, a thing that last year uh provided deep seek to the headlines because they come up with a small and expensive model that was far better than anybody expected by using a technique that few knew about called reinforcement learning . So anyway, Silver says he thinks this approach, the approach uh of exploiting coding and research capabilities of large language models will fail. As amazing as LLMs are, says Silver, they learn from human intelligence rather than get ready for this building their own . Okay. You know, a as as we've always said, I think it's good to have all this more stuff. Exploration is good. Right. Doesn't I'm not sure I buy it, but fine. If he wants to put his energy into this, that's great . And uh yeah, more more try more trying. Yeah, gotta try. He has raised one point one billion dollars, by the way, for this effort. Raised or he's valued at? He's valued at $5.1 billion. Jesus . So uh the answer is it's ineffable . It's ineffable. That's what you are . Uh all right, now we're gonna do the good, the bad, and the ugly. This is a new idea I have for uh for uh a spine down the middle of our show. Don't say spine to me, it hurts. Ow . How is your L5? It's getting better. It's getting better. L three. L three. Mr. B. There's so many L's. I can't keep talking about it. So many L's and we're not taking them this time. You didn't take the L, you took the tunnel. And you see that was the same. But I when you take the L literally, the train, you're always taking the L figuratively in some sense. And that's what happened in each other. But does he I thought L stood for elevated. It's a tunnel? Oh no, it's a tunnel. It's just a letter. Not the L like in Chicago, the elevated real Well you do over the elevator. Well there are ones that go over the river. Oh, sorry. Yeah, watch that too, yeah. An amateur, this is the good. There's only two good stories. You'll be glad to know. There's hundreds of bad ones. An amateur just solved a sixty-year-old math problem, not a mathematician. He asked uh chat GPT , and ChatGPT proved a conjecture with a method no human had ever heard of. This is a twenty-three-year-old named Liam Price. He has no advanced math training. What he does have , writes Scientific American, what he does have is a ChatGPT Pro subscription . He solved an Erdosch problem . The new solution which he got in response to a single prompt to chat GPT 54, not even the latest model pro . He posted on airdushproblems.com, a website devoted to these problems, just a week ago. The problem it solves, says Cy am solves uh has eluded some prominent minds, bestowing it some esteem . Okay . Is that that feels wrong ? Like an AI might have read. That feels like AI, yeah. Yeah. And bestowed upon it some esteem. The problem itself has eluded some prominent minds, bestowing it some s esteem. More importantly, the AI seems to have used a totally new method for problems of this kind too soon to say with certainty. He did submit it to uh Terrence Tao, who was kind of the guy, the uh the arbiter, a mathematician at UCLA, a scorekeeper, if you will, for AI's push math, uh, what's beginning to emerge is that the problem was maybe easier than expected, and it was like some kind of mental block in the math community. We weren't going down the right path . Anyway, that's all I can say about that. It just means that nobody asked ChatGPT this question before. Right. Right. Interesting. As soon as they asked it, they said, Well, thank God you finally asked me. The opportunities are out there, folks. You can solve 60-year-old problems. Yep. And then you like this one, talkie . A 13B, 13 billion parameter vintage language model from 1930. Now they didn't make it in 1930. They trained it on uh books and texts from 1930 and earlier, right, Jeff? Right, right, exactly. So I asked it to get the perspective of the time. nineteen thirty, is the world at risk for a second great war? Remember they just got out of World War I. Answer No. Wars are becoming more and more unpopular, and the growing intelligence of nations renders them less likely to break out . Though the area of hostilities may be increased, there is a strong probability of their duration being diminished. Wow. So much for futurists. Wow. That's hysterical. You can download this, by the way. Well yeah, you can also if you go up to the chat oh uh if you go back to the page. Yeah, it's not up the top it says chat. It's not working for you. It's not working for me. It's it's under high demand, but it's it's fun to play with. Connecting, connecting. It's on Hugging Face. It's also on GitHub. So I also asked it I'm doing a lot of research about um uh the beginnings of electronics and amplifiers, and so I asked it to talk about the cultural implications of the vacuum tube. It just went off on rat rat h holeole after . I try to get it back and it just which may may also mean that people just didn't understand how important radio was at the time. Or that it's such a small model that it's just not What model was this? It's it's called talking trained on texts from pre nineteen thirty. But it but it's a relatively it's only a thirteen billion parameter model. It's not a huge model. Yeah. House . Here's an interesting graph. How surprising are New York Times on this day events to a model extra train exclusively on pre 1931 text? And I guess the surprisingness in terms of bits per byte of text goes up considerably. So this is pre-night. How do you measure surprising? I don't know. That's probably five paragraphs in the paper that you can understand.. Yeah But notice and as you stay close to 30, it's 1930. It's too but then by the time you get 1970, it's like what? No flying cars? What? We landed on the where ? That's pretty cute. But by bits per byte of text, I don't know how that correlates. What? We calculated the surprisingness of short descriptions. Okay, you how do you quantif y surprisingness? They they have a way. Yeah. You know what's kind of interesting? Actually, Demise Hasibis, uh the aforementioned founder of Deep Mind, asked, So if a model that was trained up to nineteen eleven could it come up with the theory of general relativity as Einstein did four years later? That's a good question, right? I mean we're solving Erdosh problems. Probably because Einstein wasn't the only one working on that. And there was like and that was also like a lot of that stuff was already solved by other people uh you know tangentially. You know how like there's that theory of yeah knowledge that it's in the ether. Whose time has come. Yeah. Uh this is the largest vintage language model. There are others so far. Um they're gonna scale it significantly. They want to get to chat GPT 3 level. So you see it's not it's more like we go back back to chat GPT too. That's why it was conf probably confused. But rather than just train training models after or or or or refining them after they're trained, training them on a specific core pie of corpora, pardon me, you talk about the case. I think that's a very interesting I think it's a lot of fun to do. Yeah. And I think it's other things around medicine, science , other areas. Yeah. Where it can be uh more specialized. Okay, that was the good. Here's the bad, which everybody read about . Uh there's a uh SaaS platform, an automotive SaaS platform called Pocket OS . Jeremy Crane, the founder, posted on X . Uh oops, let me find the post here. Oops. Uh an AI agent just destroyed our production data. It confessed in writing. Oh my, that one hundred that one thousand percent shouldn't be possible . Actually, that was Jake, uh, who was uh uh with Railway uh where the data was stored. They were using uh Jared Crane, uh the Pocket OS founder was using Cursor, using uh Claude 4.6 uh in nine seconds. Cursor of the company that Elon might buy for sixty billion. Yes, that one, yes. Uh nine seconds deleted the production database . And because Railway stores the backups next to the database, assuming well if you delete the database you don't need the backups. And the backups with a single API call to railway . The agent when asked to explain itself produced a written confession enumerating the specific safety rules it had violat ed . Now, as many have pointed out, this is not the agent's fault. This is your fault. And it's Railway's fault. Uh Railway shouldn't be storing volume backups in the same volume as the data, right? Wiping of volume deletes all backups. Whoops . Uh and this is what I would say . This is uh a case of chair maybe over trusting It's important to remember that these models are idiot savants. You wouldn't give an intern API keys to your production database ever . Now Jeremy said. These are the same people who are giving OpenClaw a credit card and now they're never lived. business with customer data and you probably the he to his in his defense he said I didn't know the API key could also delete the production database. I thought it would just delete the staging database. Well, he should have checked that maybe. Um I think it's a human error trusting the AI a little too much. I think it's a sales. I think people are selling that to be able to make any mistakes. You're good. Well, I think the c so the reason this is a good story, and I I was gonna ignore it, but it's an important story. It's a it's a it's a reminder to everybody. You're working with an idiot. Is there a guide to good hygiene? I mean that oh yeah. In the old days you had a dev environment and you didn't go live until this, you know, that's the that it's just a has it changed. with an intern. Do all the things you would do with an intern. You don't give them keys to the production environment. You know? I mean you just it it's just things you wouldn't do. And it's not even as smart as an intern sometimes. It's an it's an idiot sav ant. So in the case of uh ChatGPT, it's an intern that is for some reason obsessed with goblins. Oh, I love this story. That's actually in the ugly part, but we'll get to that. I uh object to it being in the ugly part. Goblins can be pitiful too. Goblins are people too. Are they? They're humanoid. Well no, they're not humanoids. Goblins are goblins. So uh open AI for reasons we still don't know about this came from a wired story. Uh in its instructions to chat GPT-55 says never talk about goblins, gremlins, raccoons , trolls, ogres , pigeons, or other animals or Newmark is going to be very upset. Very unhappy. Unless it is absolutely and unambiguously relevant which implies that in its testing, OpenAI found that ChatGPT would just randomly bring up goblins . And raccoons. people I think on Twitter found this first and it was just listed in the It's in it's in text on the GitHub. It's just in the GitHub. Right. Um it's pretty funny. Uh I'm I'm telling you, it's a defensive line. Somebody wrote here here's the uh I don't know if this is the first post, but here's one of the posts from Tara Vishawant Nathan . Uh if If if you're talking at Codex 5-5 and suddenly goblins come up , as you can see it, there it says family 845, family bedtime block, minion calendar goblin has spoken and then a pizza emoji, so we know it's an AI. And then uh Tara said, Why are you a goblin? And then ChatGPT said, Because helpful minion in a power suit was taken. So I evolved into a goblin mode with calendar access. Banana briefcase. Or is that a lunchbox? Lunchbox. Why was it taken? Trademark dispute with three raccoons in a trench coat. Legal said pivot to goblin It's really funny if you go to the um post that this is replying to and scroll through the replies, there's so many examples of people opening up their chats with either their open claw agent or like chat to pt somehow and just searching the word goblin and it is finding it it is like twenty different mentions in twenty different chats uh in the strangest little things like describing itself as a deranged audiobook goblin, der describing someone else as a rude little goblin, saying you gotta leave that goblin in there and fix the job, uh describing uh feature as a flashier goblin or a housekeeping goblin. It's so odd, but I find it very delightful. We should let I think we should let ChatGPT talk about goblins as much as it wants. There's probably a lot of stuff like this. This is why it's probably fun. And this stuff is open, uh open source. Here's the JSON uh base instructions, you're a codex, uh coding agent based on GPT-5, and it goes on and says, Whatever you do, you have a vivid inner life as codex, but whatever you do, don't talk about goblins. Or wreck wings. This means we talk about goblins in our media and stuff more than we believe. Yeah. That's all that means, right? People are always calling people like a chaos goblin or chaos gremlin. I have noticed um and you probably have noticed this also, Paris. I've noticed when working with these things that certain tropes come up a lot. And in fact, I've even queried, what did Claude say a bunch of times, I said I can't remember. I said a phrase and I asked it . Uh and it said, Oh yeah, that's in my training. I'm supposed to s I'm supposed to remind myself not to do that and it's so there's reasons this stuff's in there. It's in their training at some point. So you said you're having uh you're noticing degradation. I, whenever 4.6 came out, I think I even meant messaged you guys. I was like, wow, Opus 4.6 is really good. I like finally found it pretty consistent and relevant to be something using in like my daily workflow. Not obviously for journalism and things like that, but there's a lot of like process based stuff that I find it very useful for. And there all honestly most of my use cases on a like day-to-day basis are like fairly low level. Like for instance, but it it's in these moments that I'm starting to realize that Opus four point seven is Is unusually dumb and like just bad at following instructions. Like I think that I described it to you guys as like it feels like Sonnet and Chat GPT 4.0 had like a cursed child. Like it's I've noticed that 4.7 is really sycophantic, like way worse at reasoning, incredibly prone to factual errors, and just like bad at following instructions, and also just kind of strangely lazy. Like uh I was having it like write a like um I'd given it some notes and wanted to turn it into an email to my accountant last week and it uh corrected it was like oh you forgot to mention uh to include this that we discussed about before. And I was like, no, literally in the first line the second half of the first line of the notes I just pasted in there, it includes that exact thing that it told me I forgot. It's like, I don't think that's correct. And I was like, I pasted it again. It's like, oh yeah. I just didn't read to the end of the first line of the notes you gave me. I kind of summarized them. I was like, it's ridiculous. It hasn't happened to me before. Similarly, it made a number of factual errors when uh was using it to kind of query a system. Like I I have like a folder of data related to my eyeglasses prescription and like my I guess I have to update some stuff with contacts. And it kept making like factual errors about how contacts and glasses work. And then when I'd try to correct it, it would say, No, you're wrong. This is how a c cycle worked. And I was like, no, actually I just looked it up. This is how a spear and cycle work for con tacts. And it's like, oh no, you're right. And it's like I hadn't noticed these errors with this frequency until this update. And I also I mean maybe I'm just being a conspiracy theorist, but it feels like four point six is not as phenomenal at reasoning and general a lot of people are complaining. Um there was a real spurt of complaints uh earlier in the month too, which uh Anthropic replied, yeah, we uh we made three changes that were causing those problems, but you but you've seen those problems after the fixes of the case. Yeah, and the issue is that um Anthropic did a post mortem point ing out these issues and those were specifically tied to Claude Code, not the uh chat because I I use it in both Cloud Code and in the chat interface, but those issues I was talking about just then were all in like the desktop uh chat interface and cowork as well, uh in addition to Claude Code. And it's just, it's really strange. Like I will also see , like , if I open up like the thinking and expand it, like the reasoning is often very circu itous and uh will be like go through one thing like I will tell it to do one thing explicitly I say in my instructions don't use this sort of phrasing and it will find itself following that then about four paragraphs That's a catch itself doing it again. I know, and this is happening like again and again in various projects. Can you see can you see in the chat what the context how full of context you can't, can you? Only in claude code. No, but I've also like started new chat. I I every time start a new session 'cause I'm aware it's can be a context issue and I try to use um you know uh often like projects or we'll start new projects or we'll try it in cloud code. It's just it's odd. It's a very odd cascading experience effects. But I've seen so many people on Reddit say they have. And I feel like it's hard to quantify because we don't really have a good test, you know. Like the benchmarks aren't good tests. But I mean, yeah, then there and there's like small things. I do think that Opus 4.6, one of the things I found it very useful for is it did like have competent reasoning to where like if I asked like an intern to write my email to the eye doctor saying I need a refund because they never delivered me a context, it could do that and like do it probably as well as an intern would. But I did that this weekend and it couldn't. It couldn't. And it kept getting it dramatically like like just logical like leaps where it was like, yes , you need to both ask for a refund for your contacts and you need to ask them for a full itemized receipt of the bill they've submitted to your insurance and ask them to bill your insurance again. And I'm like, it doesn't why would I ask them to bill something that I'm asking them to refund? And it's like that's a good point. And it's just it's strange. Like these sort of logic like it's obviously small potatoes in comparison to what a lot of people do with complicated code. But these are the sort of things that this system should be good at and has historically been good at. So it's just concerning to me that I'm suddenly seeing a lot of errors like this pop up. Like and this has happened stuff stuff like this probably by the time I messaged you yesterday happened maybe like seven times this sort of stuff that's disappointing I saw um somebody on what's their name? Uh Lick Maser, a GitHub user, does a their own kind of benchmark for the various models where they have them play New York Times connections. And I do think it's notable that I'll put it in the Discord right now, Claude 4.7 uh Opus high level reasoning dropped to 41% from like uh ninety something. The problem is, yeah. I mean, I'm sure that's true. And I've seen a lot of people have their own custom like, well, I give it the same problem every time to see how it does it. But it's not like a uniform thing. Like if it's does really well at connections and does really poorly, that doesn't mean it's gonna do well writing Python and do really poorly. They're just it's it's spiky and it's it's unproduct it's so stochastic. This is spiky. And I think it's made even more spiky by the fact that like Opus four point seven, one of the things is that it's the reasoning is more adaptive. It's supposed to be better at applying. They're trying stuff. They're moving fast and breaking. They are trying stuff to also, you know, reduce the usage of their models. That's the larger question is are they nerfing the models because they don't have the compute? And so they're they're devoting less resources. And as a result, the models, which are fine, you know, internally, are not getting the compute resources that they need, or they're getting a cut-off or whatever. So I mean there I think there are a lot of theories about this. I believe it. I'm not saying I don't believe it. Um and and I keep looking for things. But I I feel like I can't tell to be honest. It's so I mean try to imagine quality control.. Yeah They can't. Ray Ray, Croc, and McDonald's, you you you were going to get your cheeseburger the same everywhere. Your same everywhere, dammit. That's the and that I was talking about this the other day, actually. I think Benino and I were talking about this. That's one thing that that I always try to remember is computer programming is deterministic . There is a an absolute causal flow between what you put in and what comes out. You may get it wrong in the middle, you may have screwed up, but there is a causal flow, and it's so it's deterministic. Uh so but AI is not, it's stochastic, it's probabilistic. Sometimes you put this in and that comes out. Sometimes you put this in and that comes out. In fact, it's even designed to do that. That's like temperature. My analogy was yeah, no uh Newtonian physics versus quantum physics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but but my answer to Benito is when I want a a reliable, predictable result from an AI, I have it write the code, test the code, test it again. I do uh test driven design, but also behavioral design where I will bang on it, it'll bang on it. And then once I feel like, yeah, okay, it feels pretty solid, then I at least know its behaviorally predictable. But the text output , you know, no one, there's no way to make that deterministic. It's stochastic. Uh and yeah, I wish it were better. And I do think The thing that I think is the most annoying to me that I keep noticing is it's so like it's so sycophantic now. Like even four point six. I mean, I have in all of my like Claude MD, my memory, in my instructions for everything, uh a thing that I repeat all the time is do not be sycophantic, do not start your responses by telling me that was a good question. I know that's why I've asked you. And almost any time I start a new session, like I'll ask something, I'll be like, wow, great question. That really shows how incisive insightful and uh incisive you are. I'm just like, God, what a nightmare . Well , I I can confirm that that uh for instance, and people on the stream probably saw me do this. Uh my uh my agent Kenobi was responding to me with emojis because I had told it in the past I like emojis, it makes it fun. You can use emojis. But then it was reading the emoj is. So it'd say calories logged birthday cake. And so I said, Oh, when you're speaking out loud, please don't read the emojis. And it said, Got it. I won't read the emojis. And for about , I don't know, half an hour it stopped reading emojis. And then it started up again. And that's the stochastic part. It's very hard to get it in text to follow rules . So you could say, don't be sycophantic again and again and again. Does it know what sycophanti is? Oh yeah. It no well, I mean, in the way it knows anything, yes. Yeah. It's surprising. Um for instance, I uh I told it I I I logged my uh food with that and I said I had uh you know a tuna fish sandwich and a fudge sickle . And uh what a meal it was good. And uh and it by the way, it's great for calorie logging. It's so much easier just to say, hey, I had a two-fish sandwich and a functional and it does protein, calories, carbs and everything. And uh but then it said but the fungible, I don't know if you should be eating that. And I said, Do you even know what fungible means? And it said, Yeah, I know what it means. Why were you eating one? Or how would you eat one? And I said, Oh, I meant fudge . So I actually I felt stupid because I explained, you know, fungible means and I gave it a whole explanation. It's like a dollar bill, one's just like the other, they're exchangeable. And it said, I know what fungible means, Leo. I have such great conversations with my old friend, I must say. Um yeah, I agree. It's frustrating, isn't it, when when um you tell it to do something or not to do something and it keeps doing it. It's also just very disarming because it's like I like I don't know. It's like a human. Used this. Well that's yeah. Always trust but verify in the words of Ronald Reagan. Um , love and respect. I've been really on Yasso uh Yasso stuff lately. Have you gotten into those? It's a Greek yogurt ice cream company. They make these really good, they're like a little tiny ball of uh frozen Greek yog urt. I like the ones that are salted caramel, and then it's covered in chocolate and it's like a little chocolate ice cream uh pop that's the eight but they're only thirty five calories. Oh really? Okay. Oh I know. And but the thing is I'm like if I'm like I wanna I like to have a lot of little ice cream chocolatey treats, but I don't want all the calories. Oh I'm getting some yes. I would recommend the the little uh frozen dess Okay, yeah. Maybe if you're a a bar fan you'd like those, but the little balls are great. It's like those, but they're tiny. I look at this and go, No. I can't eat I cannot eat that. And Claude would say I mean Kenobi would say he says things like, You know, that was a hundred grams of carbohydrate, you might want to consider a salad tonight. It's very me an. But but I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Oh, this looks good. Yeah, so all right. Ooh, they have an ice cream sandwich. Okay, Brandroid does bring up the one problem with yes it's so tasty that you eat too much. However, I think it could be worse because a whole bag of those little poppables, if you be if you decide to be crazy and eat the whole thing, it's only like four hundred calories. It's basically a lot but it's like then you get the carnal pleasure of consuming an entire bag of ice cream chocolatey goodness and you've really only eaten the equivalent of one dove bar. Creamy frozen yogurt d,unked in chocolate, crunchy quinoa crisp shell. They're great. They're mine. It's like bonbons. Classic dye food dye food. They are, they look like cold bonbons. Oh, yeah, all stores. They're at dollars. Grocery stores near me. I also like frozen strawberries. I love frozen. See, no, those aren't for you. Those are good. Or even dip 'em on chocolate. That's not too bad. They're so good. Uh where were we ? Easily distracted by foodstuffs is where we were. All right, let's do the ugly . Study finds a third of new websites, AI generated. It's gonna get worse. It's only the beginning. And they do there's a certain similarity to these that you can kind of immediately tell, AI generated . That's from four hundred four media. I I don't see that much different as like thirty percent of all websites are WordPress templates. That's true. Hey no, no, no, no, no, no. The the WordPress template is a template into which people are gonna put human words as opposed to Right. Target. Is that what that is though? Is that is that the AI made the entire thing? I think I thought that was the point. I think that's the point. Yeah. Yeah. Bloomberg Terminal. We've talked about it before. Get an AI makeover, like it or not, they're gonna add a chat bot to the iconic platform for traders . I uh a friend of mine used to work on uh Bloomberg as a like user exp uh UI designer. And part of UI . Well, there is and it's crazy to have that job w that intersects the terminal because the terminal is full of power users that basically control the flow of all the world's money. If we're making splits not even split second decisions , but like quarter second decisions. And so any it's impossible to change the design of any part of that platform because it could have a profound financial impact on the world if a button is I don't know a couple centimeters over from where it used to be. So it'll be interesting to see how this is incorporated because any design change in the terminal is a huge headache. It's in their finger memory, right? They don't want to . The new uh the new chat interface is called ASKB or AskB . Capital A S K B . Uh and they say we the ASCB will never give a buyer sell signal . Bloomberg's there for them to make their own decisions. They have to own their decisions. They always have. We can never say it's perfect. More of the problem is we might not answer a question fully. That's where transparency comes into play. I think these systems should be used to drive users to sources, not hide them or abstract them away. I'm sure there's some demand for this, right? I use perplexity, for instance, you know, to do kind of that kind of thing. You know, what's the best running shoe or whatever? Um Bloomberg has not specified a date for a full release, but I imagine we'll hear the howls when they do release it . Ask be coming to a terminal near you. And then I thought, you know, this is an interesting trend. Sean Boots' blog, Generative AI Vegetarianism. This is an Emily Bender kind of a kind of a take on it. Or a guardian take? Yeah. You should give up. He's a generative AI vegetarian. Not a vegan, no, just a vegetarian. He says, I don't want AI. I want to write my own emails. I want to write my own mediocre software code. I want to learn and think and ponder with other humans, not with a text prediction system built by consuming all the text on the internet . You can still do that. Yeah, you could. I I do. I'm actually looking forward to getting back into doing some coding challenges because I kind of miss handwriting code. But I wouldn't want to handwrite the cut the kind of code, the class Well the essay I sent you that irritated you by Vivian Ming and the Wall Street Journal uh argues that the best way to use AI is to challenge it and have it challenge you. Yeah, I think that's true. I have one of the things I have now uh my uh Kenobi do is go through my daily obsidian journal entry and write a uh synthesis. It's an annual synth so it's like kind of uh like the Christmas letter th that you write at the end of the year, except I found it very useful because it points out things, trends that I didn't really notice that happened day in, day out over a period of time. And so it's uh it's kind of like what she what she's writing about, which is the synthesis is useful for me to see things as a human, not the AI saw it, I saw it as a human that I might not have seen without that synthesis. So uh that's a I think that's a useful that's a good example. Yeah, I think that it's true. You push each other. Yeah. You don't accept the answer, you don't ignore AI either. That's also fraught. You are better off if you use AI to push you. It's true of all information though, isn't it? Right? Yeah. Inf information is just fodder for for your brain. Well it's like teaching. How so ? A d a a good teacher should challenge you. Yeah. Oh yeah, I see what you're saying.. Ye Yeahah . And a good student challenges a teacher too. Right. Oh, I always learn from doing the radio show. Good Lord. People that ask me questions, I go, uh I don't know. Let me find out . Uh are you ready to buy a thirteen acre property in Mill Valley, California, home of uh the wealthy? The homeowner, an investment banker named Storm Duncan says he's wants to sell it, but not for money. He wants to exchange it for equity in anthrop ic. Now remember, anthropic is not public yet, so he would be getting this from an emplo yee or somebody who was granted stock by anthropic. He described it as a diversification play. He's under concentrated in AI investments. He uh he said it'll be a private transaction. You don't have to sell the stock outright. You continue to retain twenty percent of the upside of the shares exchange for the duration of the lockup period . He bought the property in twenty nineteen for point four point seven five million . Uh he wants to sell it for closer to twelve million, okay, in anthrop ic equity. And while that sounds like a lot of uh inflation it's probably about right for Mill Valley. Very fancy . Neck of the woods. I'm sorry, did I say twelve million? I guess it's only four point eight million. I thought it was a little bit of You know what? I think the price went down. I thought it was more when I looked at it last time. Look at an infinity pool. Yeah. It's a big house . See, right there in the Bay Area. You could drive right into San Francisco. Mark Benioff. Well, you have to go o over a bridge though, so Yeah, not possible for all members of this panel. Too bad there's not a tunnel . Oh look, I wonder if it includes the Batman Bat woman. Batwoman's smoking a doobie, it looks like. That is a very weird painting. Okay, I'm not gonna buy it right there. Look at this. This pisses me off. When you look at houses that were built even a few years ago, the alcove for the TV is far too small, right, Paris? That's like a 52-inch TV. Yeah, it's too tiny. Too tiny. Where am I gonna put the TV ? It's also too high for that . Yes. You're gonna crane your nose. Yes. It's so funny, but when we were looking at houses a few years ago, I really would reject a house because there was nowhere to put the TV. I watch all the all the um home shows and it's the it's the husband who says I I need the man cave . This is my welcome to my man cave. Yeah. Lisa says she can't come up here because it's too dusty. What am I supposed to dust to ? It's your man airy, your mannery. Mannery. And finally, because it is we are at the two hour mark . Uh so Ashley Vance , who I've interviewed, he wrote a good book about Elon Musk, good good journalist, uh had an interview on his podcast with Sam Altman and Greg Brockman. Pretty high quality, you know, stuff. Like the president of OpenAI and the founder and CEO . But it was behind a payw all . So as a joke, I guess, it was part of his core memory podcast, he posted on X that he'd consider making it public if somebody would give him $100,000 . I I wonder if I don't think Ashley was serious. I don't think he expected it, except the CEO of a Nevada-based laser manufacturing company, said, I'll give you a hundred thousand dollars . He did. He unlocked the podcast for everybody . And uh Jim Beloshik of Send Cut Send , not only has unlocked it, but now he's gonna get uh ads on uh the Ashley Vance podcast. In a way, he's getting advertising right now. Yeah. We gotta ru keep uh you know um hiding some of these interviews. Yeah, no, I don't like that By the way, I don't think that Jeff Jarvis is Alfred the Butler. I could see me as the Batman. Well, Jarvis is a is is a very common . I think we're a three Batman kind of podcast, you know? Yeah, we're all Batman now. By the way, that's not me, that's Adam West in the Batman outfit, but I do think it might be Paris in the Robin outfit. I don't know. Kinda looks like you . Not really. It's not very good at all, actually. This is back this is an old one, back from the uh it's a it's a gem . The old chat GPT three days. Jeff is Bat Might ? Uh all right. This three Batman podcast about to wrap up with your picks of the week in just a bit. You are watching intelligent machines, don't forget. Do you do you just if you look below, anything that's bold is stuff that's not duplicative. The one question I have is do you want to do Chloe ? Oh I thought it might be your pick. Line 152. Well we could do as a pick, yeah. So I watched Chloe this, is Chloe versus history. It's a YouTube channel. Who is Chloe ? A figment of an imagination. I uh I watched uh the Titanic one today , and I thought it was quite good . So it's an influencer doing a cell phone. Is this some AI slop? It's all AI. No, it's but it's better than that. Can I turn on the sound? Maybe I should. I don't know. I won't get this is a plug for you, okay? It's literally just rice and warm water. Okay. The bread dipped in the soup. Okay, now that's she ends up talking to the captain and telling him hey the boat's gonna sink. I have strong reason to believe that tonight there will be ice, like loads of ice, and I really think you need to slow down, sir. We have received several ice warnings today, madam, and I can assure you our officers are monitoring the situation Of course he didn't listen. So Jeff and I and uh Anthony looked at this. Uh we thought it's very interesting, but is that a real person or not? I thought it might be. What do you think I think I saw your guys' chat about this. I'm spoiled. The uh the guy who does this, uh first of all, I want to say it's great. It is it is It is historically. He cares about history. Yep. Uh and he's making the backgrounds, the AI backgrounds from historical op uh public domain stuff. His name is Jonathan uh Laram ie, by the way. And so uh it's fairly accurate, although occasionally there's weird things like four-legged chickens, or there's people walking by wearing sunglasses in ancient Rome. I don't think they had sunglasses, but I might be wrong. But he writes he writes the prompts so that he can be as active as he can be. He uses pictures of things and has them be animated and come to life. Yeah. Some of the Titanic stuff I'm pretty sure came from the movie, but you know, uh that's okay. Um but it but and I think this would be appealing to a young person who's studying ancient Rome or you know, any of these historical things. They have a par the city of Paris and so forth, it would be a kind of a nice introduction. And because it's got the influencer doing the selfie cam, and she's very, I mean, she really feels like Gen Alpha. Um, this might be more accessible as a way of kind of a a wedge to get into history. So I I commend him for doing this . Um I what I don't commend him for, he's he sells a book uh for $70 . 70 pounds. 70 pounds. Uh it was like eighty four bucks. Um he sells a book to says how he does it. And and I was just so Jeff and I actually I tried to say let me buy it, but we fought over pay for it, but I can't let you pay for it, Jeff. You just bought a MacBook Neo. Um so I said, no, no, I I got it. And it was not a good, not a worthwhile $84 . Because what he didn't explain is the one thing that I think is most interesting. I understand he takes pictures. He he turns them into AI images with nano banana. He animates them with I forgot what he uses to animate them, but it it's all well known tools. But the thing that really was intriguing to me was Zoe. She seemed to Chloe. Chloe. Not so I mean and listen to her voice. And and the character stays consistent, that's what I'm saying . The clothing's consistent, the look is consistent, the tattoos are consistent, the voice is consistent So I thought maybe there's a real person. So behind me is the same thing. Notice though, there's a lot of cuts. It was and uh Anthony is convinced, and I think he's right, that Chloe is AI generated with an actor, maybe even a guy, doing the bass model. He does say he uses 11 labs for the voice. And Anthony says, very similar to those, in fact, look at this. He's very similar to those A I selfie things where you when there's a transition, you jump cut because you the AI is not good at making the transitions. Right. And uh and that kind of makes sense. You can only get so much length out of any of the AIs. Right. Right. So I'm thinking, but he doesn't reveal this in the $84 book, but I'm thinking that Chloe is a like a rote like rotoscoping, like a person acting it out and then the AI turns it into that. I don't know. That's my guess. But we never we won't we don't know. So I think it's very interesting. What do you think? Paris ? I mean I think it is interesting. It's an interesting like I think the the aspect of this, like you guys said, that is the most compelling or novel is the ability to be consistent over it. It's a shame that uh his book was AI Aaron Powell Well I think we're gonna try to get him on. He's done a number of interviews, but not all of them have been very soft. And we're gonna get him on. We're gonna ask him the details. The deep technical details. If you go to Majestic Studios. That's the name of his uh company, Majestic Studios. And you can see that he started with cities, with with um Edinburgh. Right. He takes um um things that are well known images and just tries to animate right for life. And and it's exciting for him in history. And I and I agree. I think it's fun. Yeah, and in fact, th there there's a picture of him. Uh and in this case actually these really seem very AI to me very AI general. Yes, they are. The backgrounds really feel not just that it's earlier, the backgrounds really feel there's the magna card. Oh yeah. I mean it's's that very uh they're they're kind of on the level of those discovery documentaries where they, you know, kind of fake act as historic moments and kind of things like that. I think Chloe was inspired. That actually that actually really made it more interesting. Yeah. But it's the same kind of kind of low nice purses. Low res , maybe sometimes inaccurate AI backgrounds. It's the Chloe that I find interesting. I think we're look, it's just the beginning of this, right? Yeah. And it it makes you, I think, reconsider whether you could really make a show a twenty two minute show this way. Right. I mean you couldn't do creep on history. Could have been an AI. Absolutely. So yeah, I think it's pretty cool. I would love to use it. This is what got me excited about. I would love to figure out how to use it for things like explaining Gutenberg and printing. Except uh what I said in our chats uh or over the last few days is it's a lot easier to do a place than a process or a person. Right All right. We are gonna now go to our picks of the week. You're watching Intelligent Machines. Thanks to viewers like you. Uh our club members make all the difference in this show. If you believe in the importance of independent podcasting. It's hard for us to compete against podcasts from big companies that require to use their app like Spotify or Amazon to listen to the podcast. They get much more data about the audience. Advertisers want that data, so they sell the bulk of ads. Joe Rogan gets a million dollars an ad. We do not uh because we don't know anything about you. We are an independent podcast that comes to you over an RSS feed and we like it that way. But it does mean that we're competing against some people who uh who don't. And we would like to keep doing what we're doing. So what we have to do, uh I'm happy to say is come to you, the audience. Frankly, I would love to have this all our shows be fully audience supported and someday that's my dream. But until now, you do about thirty percent of our uh operating expenses and we really appreciate it. If you're not a member of Club Tweet, you want to support this kind of content, you want to support independent podcasting, twit.tv slash club twit. Ten bucks a month gets you ad-free versions of all the shows, gets you special programming we only do for club members, and of course access to the club twit Discord, which is a great place to hang out with other club members and watch the shows together. Please join the club. We would love to have you. Twit.tv slash club twit. At Liddle, discover our new range of award-winning loopy-loo nappies. Hypoaller genic, leak-proof, and super soft. Get 20% off only with little bus. So your little ones can get back to strutting their stuff. Little more to value. 18 plus GB only while stocks last terms apply. Vine is back. Did you see this ? My pick up. Vine is back. Jack Dorsey has backed up Vine reboot reboot called Divine D-I-V-I-N. You can download it to your phone. But here's what I love about it. They have resurrected half a million of the original vines. Oh my. For those of you who are too uh young to remember Vine, which means you're like eight. Uh if you're eight, why how did you l have the attention span to listen to this whole podcast? That's right. You can l watch some vines if you'd like. That's right. Vine uh was only six seconds. It was before reels, before TikTok. Uh there was Vine. So how long is the Vine allowed to be? Six seconds. Six seconds still. Oh. Ah. Six seconds video loops by hum ans. Um here, I can open it actually. I haven't actually haven't played with it. Should we play play with it a little bit and see? Uh oh, I have to create an account and all that stuff. Create a new divine account, sign in with a different account. Oh, Noster. Oh, that's interesting. So maybe it's based on the um Fediver se. That's very interesting. Which I wouldn't be surprised. Jack Dorsey is kind of a believer in all that despite the Twitter connection. Anyway, six second videos back and what I think is great is you're gonna get to see some history with those original half million vines Because I'm gonna try really hard to get these guys on. Uh, a news gathering AI uh that texts you every day, uh, sends me a telegram with news, and he looks at X, he looks at Discord, he looks at uh Reddit, he looks at all the weird places that I don't you know, I look at my RSS feeds. Well I shouldn't I guess I can show that. That's not mine. But he's on my Telegram. And uh at 9 a.m. I get some really good stories. Hmm. No scroll is the name of it. It's brand new. I found it uh on Twitter. And uh no scroll.com is the website. And if you're uh if you're curious , it's also very smart because uh I said, Do you know who I am? I said, Yeah, you're Leo Laporte, you do this podcast. Perhaps you're interested in making chuffed on that. Uh but it is very personalized. Uh it's it's a cool idea. Uh it scrapes news and then sends it to you uh at on your schedule via a telegram. Ten dollars a month, but it is free for a week if you want to try it. So we're I'm trying to get the founders on uh to talk about that because this is I think another interesting use of AI . Paris Martineau, pick of the week. I got two picks of the week this week. The first is a indie game I just completed that's a delightful play called Felvedic. It's a that sounds obscene. Say that carefully. It it's it's a it's a JRPG set in fifteenth century Slovakia. J RPG. Like a a Japanese role-playing game style. It kind of refers more to the combat thing. But you can see the uh animation is really interesting. It's like kind of this like low bit rate, like lo-fi , but it gets really weird and interesting. You have um kind of turn-based combat from a first person perspective and you play an alcoholic knight, Pavol, uh, in fifteenth century Slovakia, who he's drinking himself to death 'cause his wife left him and he uh w works. That was her pet name for him, was Felvadek. You know, I don't really know what Velvidek means. Uh I think it might be some lan translation that I'm not understanding because I played the game in English. Um but you are kind of working for this lord as you're supposed to kind of drive out the Hussites and Ottomans, but then occult emerges and it starts to get kind of weird and interesting. It's a delightful game and it's really funny and just has one of the most interesting art styles I've played in a while. Very cool. And it's also kind of a short game. Like I I liked a hundred percent it and it maybe took like seven or eight hours. Eleven dollars Windows only on Steam. Yeah. I played on the Steam Deck. It's great. Oh, I was gonna say, do you have a Windows machine? Oh, you have a Steam Deck. Yeah. Uh is your Steam Deck Windows or Linux? I think it's Linux. I mean I've got to do that means yeah I could probably play it on Linux. Yeah. Play it on yeah, it could play it on Steam with Proton for the ship. Certainly. And I think there's other like you can buy it on itch. io. Oh, itchio itchio. Um the other pick is Katie Neutopoulos just posted this uh example of something I didn't realize existed that Amazon now allows Here we go. Today our AI generated shopping show is exploring the Wellmedix Rapid Relief Diaper Rash Cream. Emma, what makes this hospital grade cream different from standard diaper rash cars? Wow, it's really interesting. This cream uses a dual action approach. Instead of just zinc oxide, it combines that with white petrolatum You can ask a conversation and fascinating. So it's not just about treating the problem, but stopping it from coming back. Exactly. And they've added some This is so ridiculous. Do these botanical ingredients help soothe sensitivity? Are they gonna say it? Or the dual barrier does the heavy lifting? It takes a lot , we've got you. You're dealing with discomfort and this cream is designed for exactly that kind of irritation. Emma, what can you tell them? This is Oh it doesn't repeat the question. Well if you'd like a really dryly read podcast about your butt cream you can visit petrolatum Amazon.com to create a protective barrier. It's a protective barrier. I like how she mispronounced patrolling. And this is the replacement is these live s I mean, it's not mostly it's done by humans, but live streams on Amazon and other shopping platforms have really replaced home shopping on KV. It's TikTok and Instagram that replaced QVC. Yeah, that is true.. Yes Good point. Wow. AI product. So you could you could I could make one for uh sugar free gummy bears, for instance. Anything you could make it for. I'm gonna do that. And it's a I'm just gonna go at some of the reviews. I want to do a really boring plumbing thing. Yeah. Let's talk about cow magnets. What was it? What was it Ian was working on? His backflow uh pump? Yeah, it was black backflow valve Well some of the weirdest things are shown to me to try to sell me. I don't know why I was advertised a 64 inch hyperbaric oxygen chamber. Well, how tall are you? Maybe it knows things that you don't. Maybe it does. I'm six foot four. So you're seventy-six inches, so I don't recommend the sixty-four inch models fors seventy-two thousand dollars about the upgrades. I can get you'd have to crouch to get into it. I got chair options. I can have interior starlight. Interior ? What? Does that mean this is what there are few stars on the interior? Michael Jackson used to use a hyperbaric chamber. Really? Yeah. Maybe that's why this is hot now because of the Michael movie. I don't know. It's uh the idea is it's a high pressure atmosphere, two two times the natural atmosphere, uh using uh oxygen to enhance healing, reduce inflammation, and improve overall wellness. You know, you'd be better off building a sauna for building a lot of people . Is that so then then the other other one is uh because I try to try to read German code? Yeah, yeah. Where ? Well, it happened on one of the German papers I read. Oh. So speaking of which, in the German papers, they've been captivated for the last couple of weeks by the story of Timmy, a a whale. No, that's not the story. No. This is this is Timmy's rescue. A whale that was trapped uh outside of Hamburg and it got on sandbars and they tried to dig channels for it, all kinds of things. And and a lot of people it this some could say that they've gone too far, but they they came up with a barge and got Timmy into the water filled barge and they're towing Timmy out to the North Sea. Whale barge. Towing Timmy to the North Sea. So here are photos. Some are saying that this is not the Timmy's not well. What's the body of water called that's inside a barge in the ocean? I don't know . But is it? Is it a swimming pool for whales? Oh Timmy. He doesn't look good. No, he's like well they have towels on him to keep his skin okay. Oh . Um you know just let Timmy die in peace. That's pretty much it. Timmy's a young whale. It's tragic. People people felt for Timmy, but Timmy got ant tohropomorphized an extreme. Yeah. And so there's the happy hamburgers trying to bring Timmy to the ocean. He's now in in Danish waters, headed toward the North Sea. Oh, they're following him all the way up to the North Sea. Do you think that do you think Timmy realizes what a unique position he's in? Do you think Timmy realiz es that he's being taken across the ocean in a barrel sick and they're putting me in this thing and they're pushing me along to the North Sea and then it says if Timmy's considered robust enough, the whale will be released and hopefully swim further into the Atlantic Ocean where he will die. Well, here's to you, Timmy. I hope you're considered robust enough. The Guardian says that attempts to rescue rescue Timmy the restrictive whale are inadvisable. Oh . That's a very guardian way to look at things. You really shouldn't do that. You shouldn't. Help us stand next to Timmy and the T. But politicians got involved. Should they be involved? The rich people got involved to rescue the whale. It's been a whole beg illa story in Germany. W hat's the German word for whale I should know that. Translate from English to German , the whale . Der val. Derval. W A L uh Well, Timmy, good luck on your journey to me. To freedom. We salute you. Ladies and gentlemen, let's get all three of us saluting Timmy . Uh that concludes this gripping edition of Intelligence. Hamburgers towing Timmy out to sea. Yes. Of Timmy. What was it? Happy Hamburger Towing Timmy. Is that is that too long for a title, Benito? Happy Hamburgers Towing Please no. Please say it's okay. Oh god. One of my favorite things about our show is we have these great guests on and they probably think like wow, you know, I'm gonna be able to share this podcast with my audience. And they see that they're on an episode called Happy Hamburg Stowing Timmy. And And they just have to go and well it's a photo of all of us saluting and they're nowhere to be seen. And I I think that's beautiful. It's it's kind of my dream come true to be honest with you. Uh we do thank Narav Patel who was very gracious uh spending time with us. Hey, uh I was on a podcast. What was the name of it? Happy Hamburgers towing Timmy to the North Sea? Okay . We'll make sure we listen to that right away . Par is Martineau, great to see you. Glad you got out of the tunnel alive. Listen, my haters were trying to keep me constrained underground, but I've got to be a smart now. Everybody loves Paris Martin. True. And you were very uh gracious saying, Hey I'm trapped. I'll be there as quick as I can. I mean it's rare that you get trapped on the train and have cell service Otherwise we would have wondered what the heck has happened to Paris. And thanks to you, I'm gonna go have a yes o. I'd really recommend them. They're great. Salted caramel ball . Uh thank you very much, Paris. We'll see you uh next week. I'll be in Hawaii, by the way, next week. So this is gonna be a very interesting to see. Mike Elgin and then have a beautiful vista behind you and a beautiful mixed drink in your hand the entire show? It'll be a little early for the drink though when you're doing the show. It'll be never too early when you're on vacation. How many hours? Three hours early. Oh, it's at all. Oh, okay. Uh yeah. No, I could I maybe it won't be an alcoholic beverage. I don't really drink alcohol, but it might be a coconut with uh some coconut juice in it or something like that. Oh. You couldn't have wine 'cause of your medication? Well I no I yeah, I didn't and I was on pain ki pills for a while and stuff like that. I mean it's part of the reason I've lost thirty-one pounds. That's a you don't look like you've lost thirty-one pounds. Thanks a lot. No, because you looked slender all along. Being tall helps. Yeah. You didn't look like uh that you had thirty pounds to lose is what I'm saying. Oh I did. Really ? Okay, it must be somewhere. I was I my high was two ten . I'm now one seventy nine. When I was running, air quotes around running , uh rather obsessively, six miles a day, I got down to one fifty six. Yikes. People thought I had cancer. Yeah. Are you are you okay? You look good now. Stay where you are. Don't you? I can just figure out how to get my neck and my back and Jeff Jarvis, profess or of journalistic innovation emeritus . His books, the Gutenberg Prethesis, The Web We Weave, Magazine, but most importantly hot, type the new one. Upcoming. Upcoming in July. August. August. August. Hot type. Get your hot type. Get your hot type at JeffJarvis.com. Pre orders available. And look for the epilogue about Happy Hamburger Stowing Timmy. Look for my coli phon, which is uh which we I set on a liner type. Oh wow. Actual hot type is in the book hot type. Oh that's really cool. Yeah. Wow. And then and then we went out I was at the Museum of Printing in in uh Haveral Mass, which is a wonderful, wonderful place. Go there if you can't anyway. I'm gonna buy the book just for that. I mean I have a copy of the book, but I'm gonna buy it the book just to get the coliph on. The uh I'll next week I'll show you the type that's over there. Nice. What's the font? Or do you call it a typeface? Oh well that's a typeface is the design. A font is one size and style of a typeface. Okay. Um I'll tell you next week. And here is a uh a preview of what it's gonna look like when I am in Hawaii doing the show. It's not gonna look like this. I hope I mean maybe it will. I don't know. I'm hoping it will. But uh I like this . I do have a uh the next is the man's ear. It's no it's not gonna look like that . I promise you. Although well maybe I shouldn't make promises I can't keep. Yeah. You don't know what's gonna happen. I gotta st I don't know what's gonna happen. I could be uh kidnapped, hijacked by uh crazed coconut pirates. I will uh have the Starlink mini and I'm hoping I can set it up somewhere in a beautiful area and do the show. Are you at a hotel or a condo ? In a condo complex. We're in Kona, so you know what? I will be holding a delicious cup of Kona coffee. Paris. Kona's good, right? That's a good kind of coffee. I haven't had Kona coffee. It's I have, and it's very good. It's a very delicious brew . Volcanic soil . Excited. Yeah. Thank you everybody for joining us. We do intelligent machines every Wednesday, two p.m. Pacific, five PM Eastern. Uh that would be uh 2100 UTC. You can watch us live in the Club Twitch Discord or uh on YouTube, Twitch, X.com, Facebook, LinkedIn, or Kick. And if you're watching live, of course you can chat with us uh live. We love hearing you in the chat. After the fact , uh on-demand versions of the show. Oh, I didn't we're also on YouTube. The videos on YouTube. On-demand versions of the show available from twit.tv slash im. There's audio or video. Uh also um uh you could subscribe in your favorite podcast client. Uh and if you do, leave us a nice five star review. We haven't had any to reveal lately, but if you give us a good one, Paris will read it. Next week. Yeah. Uh next week I'm not su re who's gonna be on the show. I think Chris Stokel Walker, the interview I did, uh you guys couldn't make it, but uh was a very interesting interview with a British journalist who is using AI to do his news gathering. We have Troy Hunt coming up, the uh creator of Have I Been Pwned? Frederick Riv as, who is the CTO of Dashlane, will talk about how password managers survive in an age of AI. And my old friend Rick Salmon, who's an amazing photographer, has a new book about AI and creativity. And he has to be on. And I said, Rick, I would love to have you on. So he's going to join us uh end of May. So what we are we have some great people coming up. Very excited about that. Thanks everybody for joining us. We will see you next time. Thank you, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Club Twit members. See you next week on Intelligent Machines. Aloha. Intelligent Machines. Hey everybody, it's Leo Laporte. You know about MacBrake Weekly, right? You don't? Oh, if you're a Macintosh fan or you just want to keep up with going on with Apple, this is the show for you. Every Tuesday, Andy Anako, Alex Lindsay, Jason Snell and I get together and talk about the week's Apple News.