AI Agents and Future Security

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff Jarvis is here. Paris Martinot is here. We have lots to talk about, including the White House saying we want to improve all future AI models. Also an interview with the guy behind Have I Been Pwned. Troy Hunt introduces his AI friend Bruce. Next on Intelligent Machines . This episode is brought to you by Out Systems, a leading AI development platform for the enterprise. Organizations all over the world are creating custom apps and AI agents on the Out Systems platform. And with good reason, build, run, and govern apps and agents on one unified platform. Innovate at the speed of AI without compromising quality or control. Trusted by thousands of enterprises worldwide for mission critical apps, teams of any size and technical depth can use out systems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and effectively without compromising reliability and security. Without systems, you can accelerate ideas from concept to completion. It's the leading AI development platform that's unified, agile, and enterprise pro ven, allowing you to build your agentic future with AI solutions deeply integrated into your architecture. OutSystems, build your agentic future. Learn more at OutSystems.com/slash twit. That's outs system.com slash twit. Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is twit This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, episode eight hundred sixty-nine, recorded Wednesday, may sixth, twenty twenty six. My sentience is going up. Aloha everybody'.s It time for intelligent machines. I am here in Hawaii, joined right now by my uh comrades in crime, Paris Martineau of Consumer Report. Leo, it's rude that I can hear birds chirping behind There's minas, there's house sparrows, there's uh there's a really loud bird. I think it's called the phallicone or f something like that. But you'll hear. All we've got here are morning doves. I love doves. We have some doves too. They go prr . Are they the same as pigeons though? I think they're just white pige ons. No, the one I'm thinking of goes like ho wooo-hoo like it's I'm getting the I'm getting the tone wrong, but it's a very specific three uh tone cadence. Very nice. Paris has been working hard on a very important article for consumer reports. So we're gonna uh we're gonna be gentle today. Take it easy on Paris . We're not gonna be so gentle on this guy, Mr., because he's all better. Mr. Jeff Jarvis. As soon as I saw Leo's background, I said, F you, Leo. Professor Emeritus of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalists. Guten Mor k. He's also the author of The Gutenberg Parenthesis. What would Google Do? We don't talk about that much anymore. Magazine. And his newest Hot Type, which is available for pre-order right now from Jeff Jarvis. Are you enjoying it out there? Are you Oh it's wonderful. I'm having a great time. It's beautiful here. Um we last night we swam with a manta ra ys, which is quite an experience. They are big. The biggest named Gabby is 1400 pounds. Jeez. Has like a 15-foot wingspan. And you it's really interesting. You go out in a boat at sunset because you they feed at night and uh the the we get out in the water in our little fins and snorkels and we're holding onto a surfboard and they have lights which they shine into the water and the light attracts plankton and the plankton attract the man-rays, which feed on the plankton. So they all show up. And uh they are beautiful, you know, they're aerodynamic, they they float and they flap, but they also get really close to you and they're really big and they look scary. They keep saying, No, no, they're not scary. And uh and the guide said they No, they're not scary things that someone says clearly when it's like a lie. They also say the sharks mostly don't bite, so that's good. Uh what you want. Yeah, it's what you want. Uh but the Matterase they they swoop and they come and they go underneath you and flip over and they they they they they say you could lick them but don't because they're this close to you they're this close it's amazing it's a beautiful show and that was really fun and tonight we're going to a cowboy barbecue in the up country because it's a big there's a big cattle ranch. Big cattle ranch is up uh up in the uh uh 3,000 foot level. So yeah, there's a lot of lot of stuff to do. We're gonna go to the coffee. You know, Kona Coffee's famous Paris. Um and we're gonna go up to the coffee uh plantation and have some cona . And uh we're gonna go to a whiskey refinery that makes whiskey out of honey. So there's a lot to do. Any any pineapple uh plantations? Oh yeah. Lots of fresh fruit. Delicious fresh fruit. It's really fun. We went over to the rainy side the other day. I sent you pictures of the waterfalls and all that stuff. Anyway, nobody cares about this. Let's talk about our our guests. I care. I know, but I'm thinking of our audience . You don't real you don't think that a hundred percent of this audience is tuning in because of the parasocial relationship they have with you specifically? Probably, but I hate podcasts where they spend a lot of time happy talking. It drives me nuts. So oh, we can fix that. We can negative talk. Is that useful for you? They've started to do it now on NPRs' Up, F whereirst they start the podcast with inane chatter. It's like I'm listening to the case. Up first is a crazy podcast to do that because that podcast is like six minutes long. Yes. And it's recorded at legitimately, I think three or four AM Oh really? Well yeah it is the first show of the morning yeah wow well anyway no more happy talk I will give you a warning we have a great guest but he is not till the end of the show today. Troy Hunt will be joining us. He is in Australia on the Gold Coast, so he's not going to call in at this hour. But we will talk to him in a couple of hours. He'll be the last part of the show. Troy, of course, the founder of Have I Been Pwned , which is an amazing website, which I think I just saw does 14.2 billion hits a day from not just users but from browsers too that are checking to see if you you, know, your password has been revealed in a breach, things like that. And it's kind of the classic story of a project that is supported by one person, it's actually Troy and his wife, uh, that almost ever ybody uses. It's a great story. And he's lately turned to AI. That's why he's going to be on the show. His AI, Bruce , helps him now. So it's one per two people in an AI uh doing that. Anyway, Troy Hunt, uh very famous, very good guest coming up later. Our top story, the uh federal government has decided, or at least is considering, deciding which AI models you should get to use ? Oh, that's gonna go great. White, this is from the New York Times. White House considers vetting AI models before they're released . Remember, Trump got rid of the Biden AI safety bill at the I think behest of David Sachs, who is his AI and uh crypto czar, David Sachs has a lot of AI investments. I have to think David Sachs, who doesn't like anthropic and thinks it's too woke. So that's yes, as does Pete Heggseth. I have to think this is really David Sachs saying I should be able to pick the winners and losers. Um hasn't he didn't he say that he had to step away from government? Yes, but he still advises. Every possible malign use that anyone could go to and how it does, it's absurd. There's the and and these people to vetted and the last people. This is what the Times reports. The administration is discussing an executive order to create an AI working group that would bring together tech execs and government officials to examine potential oversight procedures, according to US officials. They're gonna say this is because of Claude Mythos, that they wanna protect us from super strong AI breaking into systems and things . And so on the surface it sounds like a good idea. But I think it's really they want to pick the winners and losers. Well, the other the other rumor was that they want to decide who the those is so powerful, who's allowed to have it. I'm so sorry. Can I can I read the quote that Trump said about an AI in an event from July that's in this article? Yes. We're going to make this industry absolutely the top because right now it's a beautiful b aby that's born, Trump said of AI at an event in July. We have to grow that baby and let that baby thrive. We can't stop it. We can't stop it with politics. We can't stop it with foolish rules and even stupid rules. Well and that was when he was getting rid of the Biden AI uh proposal, which was also an executive order, so had no force of law. I, you know, who knows whether this is going to happen, but I think it's clearly a bad idea. Yeah. Well it's a it's an illogical idea. We've already seen the politicization of CISA, the the uh infrastructure protection agency that is now gutted and is no longer protecting us. Uh, because it was pure politics, because in 2020, the d then director of CISA, Chris Krebs, said the election was fair. How dare he? And uh and of course, ever since uh Sissa's, you know, now if the budget cut is seven hundred million dollars in this latest budget. They just they just don't want Sissa, but the problem is there's nobody to take up the slack. Well, even if you had a smart technology savvy administration, let's just posit that, how would you vet models? What but what would the procedure be? What would you look for? What are the standards that you could possibly use? You know what this sounds like? What it it reeks of social ism? No, it couldn't be socialism. A controlled economy? It couldn't be. Uh anyway, I just thought I'd raise that specter, uh put that on your radar. W you know, a lot of times the White House proposes things that don't become law, so whether it will be law or not is uh is unclear. Um the other fun ringside seat we have is to the uh trial of Elon Musk versus Sam Altman. Elon suing open AI saying, hey, I want a hundred some billion dollars because you went nonprofit without me. The judge in this is by the way, one of our favorite judges, Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers. She was the judge who spanked Apple for lying to her. She has a lot of control in her courtroom and does not tolerate fools lightly. She's already said to both sides, I don't want to hear AI any AI doomerism. Let's not there's not going to be any talk of extinction events. That's only expert witness was a doomster and was come up. Enough. Cool it on the robot apocalypse talk. Uh he also though I have to, and this is the other thing. We were talking about this earlier uh today. Um there there's no way any of these trials end well for either company because of discovery. And Google and Apple uh learned this when they were sued by Epic because em ails come out. In this case, president of OpenAI, Greg Brockman's diary . Turns out it came out because OpenAI entered it into evidence. Whoops . Because he said all sorts of things in his diary that are incriminating. It's not a criminal trial, but uh they certainly don't reflect well. He said, how do we get Elon out of this so I can get my billion, among other things . He uh he is worth now 30 billion. Uh that's how much of OpenAI's uh for-profit arm he owns without any investment on his part. Elon Musk's lawyers said, What did you do to earn that? Sweat, blood, and tears. He also didn't reflect well on him when he at trial was asked, Do you know what this lawsuit's about? And he said, No . Then uh Musk 's lawyers read him what the lawsuit was about and said, Do you know now? And he said, No . He was, I think, trying to make the point that it the lawsuit made no sense. But that wasn't the point. And I and remember this is a jury trial. So jurors are looking at this going I don't know. Do we hate everybody? says the jury. Yes. Because Elon's not doing well for himself either. He for instance ad mitted that XAI, his AI company, which the judge pointed out, aren't you doing the same thing, Elon, that you're complaining about with open AI? Aren't you a for-profit AI? Uh but he said, yeah, we distilled open AI's code. Well, wait a minute. What? Yes. And he but he said, but everybody does it. Well, that's that's good. So distilling, as you probably know, but I'll fill you in for you don't those of you who don't, means that they basically took XAI after its initial training and did further training by asking open AI questions and getting the ans wers back and then adding it to their training. So this is the post-training is very important to all these models. Often you go to experts, you'll get a physicist in and say, okay, ask it a bunch of hard questions and then gra de the answers and improve the answers. And this is very valuable post-training. You do it with experts. But uh both Anthropic and OpenAI have complained that the Chinese models are doing this. Anthropic said that one of the Chinese models had opened twenty-four thousand accounts with Claude to do distillation to train it. Uh and let us note the irony of them complaining about others uh taking their intellectual property when they did the same to others. Right. Doing others as you would have other people. We call it industrial espionage when China does it. Elon says uh it's what happens. Everybody's doing it. Everybody's doing it. So this is uh I I I uh I coined the phrase uh on Windows Weekly, discovery is a bitch. Uh in all of these trials, discovery ends up hurting both companies. You know, you find out what's really going on behind the scenes, and this has not been good for I think either company. I don't know what the jury's making of it. My guess is the jury will not give Elon $131 billion . Well what is actually at stake is that is it Elon saying once you're for profit you have to give me a share or is it you shouldn't be for profit and you have to revert to not for profit? Both . Then what is it? I think he's saying kind of everything. Yeah. And I want you to go out of business. What he did do is drop the fraud charges. He's not claiming fraud anymore. I'm not sure why, but his lawyers decided it would be easier just to go for the other things. So other favorite moments from the trial is Brock Brock was saying I thought uh Elon was going to hit me uh that the the split began in a haunted mansion and Musk what Musk really wants is eighty billion dollars to colonize Mars Okay . I think they're all nuts. And this is the problem is that you really learn that these giants have feats of clay. Nobody likes them . And they're not likable. These especially. It's it's Godzilla versus Mothra. I'm surprised they even found a jury, right? Weren't they didn't they have trouble finding a jury? Because everybody They did in fact some of the jurors admitted they, didn't much like Elon Musk, but then said, but we could be fair. I was just saying it seems completely impossible to find someone who has never heard of Elon Musk in this day and age. In San Francisco Bay Area, absolutely. And if they have their like so disconnected. Yeah. What would you say if you were each called for this jury? I'd say I could be fair . I mean I would say that I could be fair, of course. But I think that once anybody asks me what my job is, they don't want to let me on there. I mean this is when I was called for jury duty like a year or two ago, I was so excited. I was like, I want to be at a jury so bad. I sat there all day. And but Well you should move to California. Uh you can be called all the time. I mean I think it'd be great. I love showing up does nothing to prote ct reading through court cases what was the show? It was d not dateline, but they had the to trap a predator show where they would they would uh pretend that they were young girls and they would invite predators to the house and the predators would come to the house and the police would jump them. Uh it was one of those cases that had happened uh in in Petaluma . And um I said, you know, in the Wadir when the attorneys tries to j judge whether you're right for the jury, I said, Yeah, I I have a radio, a syndicated radio sho w. Uh he said, Would you talk about this trial? I said, afterwards, you bet. And um I wasn't trying to get off the, but I was just trying to be honest. But they always say, do you think it could be fair? And I say yes. And um I got picked, which I was happy to do. I wanted to serve. Unfortunately, the although I think accurately the judge after the prosecution presented, the defense made a motion to throw the case out saying it was entrapment, and the judge agreed. And so we never got to hear the defense. It was entrapment. The only time I got called, I had to approach the bench and I said, you I'm a TV critic and you should know. I think it was L A Law. I just reviewed a show about lawyers and I said everybody hates lawyers. Boom. Really? They got you out. No, that's interesting. I wasn't out, but I need to I'm I'm uh proud of you that you would want to serve because I want to serve so badly. I mean I think it's incredibly interesting, but I think it's also a our literal duty as people. If you ever somehow are accused of a crime, you're gonna be judged by a jury of your peers and do you want that to be all the people who didn't have the smarts to get out? No, you want it to be people who are intelligent and caring and actually care about the process. Well, you are well brought up, Paris. I'm impressed. I'm very impressed. That's exactly right. Uh and it is fun. And you're right. It's also fun. I really enjoyed it. I mean, uh, you know, you have to give up your phones and you know it's a it's a big deal. They didn't sequester us, but uh you can't talk about it. And it went on the the prosecution went on for more than a week. Who it was gonna be a long trial. And this the guy, I mean slimy. Yeah, but it wasn't trapped. It was an adult woman who was pretending to be a kid. Um he was uh in the service. Uh it was it was just it was not it was a And he'd been shamed on television already? Yes. And that's the thing I really dislike is that it's all in the service of a TV show. Yeah, but and the T V hosts were so sleazy themselves. It was Jeff Probst. I can't remember who did it. No, for well, maybe for that one out, but there was another one. I forget who it was. It's the Dateline Guy was doing it too. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was the Dateline Guy. But anyway. Um if you're interested in this, keep your eyes out for a great crime drama narrative feature film coming out in September 2026 called Primetime that is about to catch a predator, basically. Um , I'll watch that. Oh, that sounds good. Robert Pattinson Pattinson is the main guy, but it's directed by my favorite document arian, uh Lance Oppenheim. What else has he directed? He did Some Kind of Heaven, which is this kind of technicolor uh look at the villages in Florida, the world's largest film. Oh, I did see that. That was hysterical. It's one of my favorite films of all time. And it's a document the thing is he does great documentary work, but it almost seems like a like a movie, but on acid, basically, is how I would describe his style. He's very expressionistic in his style. And I think I really like that as far as a documentary um approach goes, because I think that there's this very clinical tone that a lot of documentarians take to their work that is supposed to give the idea that they're completely objective, but it's not. I mean, you are you have cameras set up and you're having somebody reenact something or do somet hing as if they are not, you know, noticing that there's a whole camera crew. You get the edit. Whoever gets the edit completely controls the slant, no matter what. Absolutely. And so it's like why not have a interesting documentary that is uses the fact that they control the edit to the fullest. He also did this great FX series called Renfair that I really recommend. Oh, you recommended that was your pick on the show last year. And I watched it 'cause of you. He did that too? Oh, he's good. I can't wait to see this. Filmed in New Orleans. Renfair? No, this one. Oh the Primetime Primetime. Uh we're going to take a break. Uh, we will come back. I have found a model that's just right for you, Paris, an AI model only Paris could love. But that's coming up next. Don't forget our guest Troy Hunt in uh about an hour and a half will be joining us. You're watching Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis. More in a minute. This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by Helix Sleep. How are you preparing for spring cleaning season? It's time to upgrade to a Helix mattress and get a good night's rest. No more night sweats, no back pain, no motion transfer. Don't settle for a mattress made overseas with low quality and questionable materials. Rest assured your, Helix mattr ess is assembled, packaged, and shipped from Arizona within days of placing your order. You can also take the Helix Sleep Quiz, which will match you with the perfect mattress based on your personal preferences and sleep needs. And it works. 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This is exclusively for listeners of intelligent machines. Again, that address, helix sleep.com slash mach ines for 27% offsite wide. And make sure you enter our show name after checkout too, so they know we sent you. That's important to us. This offer ends May 31st, but if you're listening after the sale ends, you should still check them out. There's always great deals at helixsleep .com slash machines. Thank you, Helix, for support and intelligent machines. And don't forget to use that address, helix sleep.com/slash machines. That supports us too. Now back to the show. You are muted, Leo. And I made such a funny joke too. Oh well. What'd you say? I just said thank you, Petaluma, Leo. We recorded the ads before I left just in case there were some sort of uh technical difficulties here, but uh it's worked out pretty well. So I don't know uh this is the segment of the show where we'll talk about some new models, uh ne ws in the uh model sphere. I don't know if this is anything or it's I saw it on X and I thought of you, Paris. It's a that classic statement that I love to hear. I saw it on X and I thought of you, Paris. It's a new model called sub Q . Uh and it is based on a subquadratic sparse attention architecture. I don't know even what it is. What does that mean? Sell me itans sell your data center stock. Maybe. Yeah, it's supposed to be much more efficient. It's the the reason I thought of you, Paris, is it has a 12 million token context window. So the the biggest so far is one million. Listen to that. See? That is actually huge for me. Yeah, because you wanna get a bunch of documents into the context window and then ask questions. How many hundred page PDFs do I guess I guess that's you said twelve minutes? I guess that's yeah. That's that's a lot. Uh whether it works or not, I don't know. I mean the million context window that uh anthropic offers with the Opus four seven, you don't even wanna get close to half filling it up. It gets it gets goofy pretty quickly. So it' s really not a million. Um uh the the post uh comes uh from a guy named Alexander uh Whedon who founded uh Sub Quadratic which is the name of his company. He says it's fifty-two percent faster than flash attention at one million tokens, less than five percent the cost of Opus . And it's not an L a transformer-based LLM. He's it's a different kind, whatever that means., that is available Yeah, wait, what? What is it? I don't know. It could be completely snake oil. I don't know. I haven't been able to try it yet. It is available for early access. Um q dotai. S-u-b-q.ai if you want to test it and tell us uh whether this would be appropriate for Paris's uh This is this is the thing. Listen, I do love anyone who sentence two in their like breakdown blog includes the words research corpora. You know? I love someone who's designing for a corpora. Latin plurals not a corpora would be plural. Corpus. Corpora.. Yeah So the thinking here is not unlike that of Jan Lacoon. And I watched a damn it. I knew we'd get Jan Lakoon into this. We should get a little trans ition graphic for Jan Lacoon. Can we just get a a single graphic that uh goes in the the more you know font that's just Yan Lacoon We should explain uh Turing award winning freaking game. Turing award winning AI researcher worked at Meta for a long time. Didn't work out at Meta, has left. Well we don't know what his fitness routine was. He didn't agree. I'll confess. He didn't agree with where they were headed. Uh he's done a lot of really interesting early work and he now is uh of the belief that LLMs are a dead end and getting more and more strident about this. Uh and that you've got to have physical world uh Well, so so let me let me so he there was a very good tutorial that he he linked to that I watched, which I understood some percentage of and was useful. But my only point here is that both of these things, sub Q and um uh his view is that is the too much is wasted on pixels pixels that don't matter. Right. And so it it uh uh y attention is all you need. Focusing on the attention is core to making this work. And so what he does in the real-world models is you start to recognize a ball is a ball and a cat is a cat and you can ignore everything else. You you pay attention to the road and not all the trees and the leaves rustling, right? So that's a similar point. Exactly. That's the point. And that's what you know cats and and and toddlers are able to do. Right. And so it's a s it's a similar argument here. And it's interesting to me that, if it it goes back to the phone. problem The is which pixels which pixels matter. How do you know ahead of time what to pay attention to or not? The way humans and cats do it is we tune out repetitive sounds after a while, you know. Uh and we also birds chirp I mean we don't you know we're gigabytes of data pouring into our eyes and nose and mouth, but we don't necessarily and fingers, but we don't necessarily uh even look at a tenth of that, a thousandth of that. So I'm not sure how you know with an LLM what to do. Well in the case so the example they gave in the tutorial in the in the Lacoon case is there's a ball going back and forth between two hands. And he explains what happens in a generative AI and why it gets fuzzier and fuzzier and fuzzier because it's trying to track the whole thing, versus if it understands that the ball is the key thing. Uh and there's examples i in this of understanding that that roughly is the cat, that roughly is the ball. That's what it's going to pay attention to because it's going to predict next mo uh actions, not pixel by pixel, but kind of concept by concept. Well, interestingly, this is exactly what OpenAI is doing with their new chat GPT 5.5 Instagram. What a segue. It is using fewer emoji we know the emoji don't matter uh it actually uh it it arrived yesterday um it is a new uh kind of spin on five point five uhh OpenAI says with this update, models responses are tighter and more to the point without losing substance, and yet keeping the warmth and personality that makes chat GPT enjoyable to use . We'll see. Instant is now more dependable. Significant improvements in function in factuality. OpenAI has long claimed that their model hallucinates less. They say instant produces fifty-two and a half percent fewer hallucinated claims than chat GPT five point three instant . Okay . Fine . Uh let's see what else is new. Oh, this is a big story. Uh so apparently uh Elon Musk's XAI is um which built by the way Colossus the world's largest data center with the most uh NVIDIA GPUs ever is uh not being fully utilized or something because XAI has made a deal now with anthropic to give them a bunch of compute not just a bunch the whole damn thing three three hundred megawatts of capacity two hundred twenty thousand NVIDIA GPUs this will happen within the months. And they're going to apply it to Cloud Pro and Cloud Max subscribers. I imagine also to API users. But they say this allows them now , effective today, to increase usage limits, double the five -hour rate limits for ProMax team and seat-based enterprise plans. No more peak hour limit reduction on clawed code for pro and max accounts. I've run up against that. After five hours, it says you've used up your allotment. You're gonna have to wait till one. Uh and then they're raising their API rate limits for Opus models. People are very happy about this. You you Paris were complaining that uh Anthropic's Claude wasn't as smart as it has been Today it seemed this week it seemed somewhat better, four point seven. When did this go into what time did this go into effect as someone who hit a usage limit midday way faster than I should have So you'll it's When was this announced? Temporarily. Do we know? Temporarily uh I don't have a time. It just says May sixth. But uh interesting. Yeah, I don't you know, probably you're gonna get that uh I mean I I noticed so I guess a small example is I like track the foods I eat in like a um one of those like calorie counter apps that also counts my mac ros and stuff like that. And I made a uh I don't know, some sort of sesame noodle dish and wanted Claude to I found that actually AI tools are really good at estimating things when it comes to home cooking. So I like put in my like the recipe I use, like the weight of it, any other details, and somehow me trying to get Claude to estimate the amount of calories in takeout sesame noodles with some steamed sauteed bak joy and some sauteed uh mushrooms this morning took like half my usage limit but it's because if I open up the I just had opened it up and it was on four point seven and it legitimately I prop it probably wrote like two thousand words in thinking of it trying to figure out the various stuff. And I was like, go off, I guess. Yeah. Go off, little AI, do your job. The other thing we've talked a lot about is I think the growing uh tendency for apps, companies, websites to offer you know access for AI, tuned for AI, whether it's through M CP servers or an API or SDK. Cloudflare has announced that starting uh yesterday, agents can be Cloudflare customers. Your open claw can create a Cloudflare account, start a paid subscription, register a domain, and get back an API token to deploy code right away. Woohoo . Um this is uh I've actually uh turned this on immediately because it's really hard to set up a Cloudflare pages. I mean it's just a lot of technical stuff. A lot of the UI is terrible. And uh Claude just does it so nicely and easily. So um give your give your open claw a credit card and and turn it on to a cloud flare. Now you can have it do web pages and so forth. And then um this one maybe a little bit more scary . Uh Link has created a command line for claw to let you create single use credentials you can use to synchronously approve each time. Uh the post from Patrick Collison, I asked Claw to buy itself a gift. It subscribed to HTTP Zine on Gum Road. And it does request. It said, can I spend seven bucks on this zine? I guess Patrick said okay. So um forget giving it a credit card now. You can, you know, give it uh a link account. Wasn't one of the collisons who was in the video that I sent you about the car that ch turned? Yes. Which I thought was complete BS. Tell us about this video. It's crazy. So he he said that he he put his agent onto all his cameras in his house and let his a and his agent knew his goals, which was one was to hydrate more, because after all it is California and that's a law. Um and uh it scolded him and watched him to make sure he went to the refrigerator and drank. Um the other one, the more this I find very far fetched, but the next one is is even more so. So one of his other goals was to take some kind of California nutrient. I don't know what it was. And uh he'd given uh his agent control of his car. This I find hard to be Tesla. And so uh I guess there was some discussion about it. That's my first question. How does one give your agent? Tesla API. Tesla. Well actually was it a test ? How does the agent how would the ag ent control it in any s like how you know how to drive? He said that he he was driving, it was taking him home, and suddenly it turned left to the whole foods because the the uh nutrient was available there and he went inside and bought it. It was bought the whole story was was was swallowed hook line cigar on stage. Don't believe this at all. Wait I'm sorry. Who said this? Where? One of the collisons. I don't know which brother it was. No, it wasn't collison. It was the guy they were interviewing. Or was it the collison? I thought it was a collison. Oh okay. I thought they were interviewing this guy. Anyway, it doesn't really matter because it's completely fabricated. Yeah. Um I am in the process of giving Claude access to my camer as. Um I have a Ubiquity camera system that's locally stored in login . Because does Lisa know? There are no indoor cameras. They're only outdoor cameras. Does Lisa know ? I haven't mentioned it yet. Does Lisa watch? Well what it would do is for instance say hey there's a package for you. It looks like it's from you know uh FedEx delivered it and it's probably this. Or there's a guy lurking outside, or uh, hey, your brother Joe just pulled up and he probably wants a a loan, so you might want to lock the door. Things like that. Actually you could lock the door. So would it have facial recognition capabilitieses? And do your does your doesn't the system that you use for a video doorbell already have the ability to tell you when something's coming up? The spring does, but the but the ubiquity stuff it also has some of its of its own AI. I just want to use it directly. And there's a Ubiquity MCP server. fully to the horror movie, you should give it uh full master access to be able to lock and unlock all your doors. No it can't because it's home assistant. So it can totally do that. Yeah, so I think that you should get rid of your keys and it will only let you in if you treat it correctly. I'm your only wife now, Leo. It would make me so happy if it did n't. See what it can do. Um but it it's uh I think it's interesting. It I think it probably could do face recognition. So are you gonna get one of those fancy toilets that uh has a poop cam in there and you could give it access to your poop cam? You're giving me ideas. Speaking of which Toto's stock is up markedly because of AI. No . Not because of AI and the toilet, but because they also make ceramic things. Yeah, connectors for I was I was so looking forward to that story and disappointed. That was a few weeks ago, yeah. Wow. Um so so now you can get a stripe account. That's the whole point. The collisons are giving your uh AI a stripe account and uh they can they can buy things. What could possibly go wrong? Um, let's take a break before we get to Richard Dawkins, because I know this is going to be a heated conversation . I think. I don't know. Richard Dawkins, who I hugely admire. Um, he wrote one of my favorite books, The Selfish Gene. He's a evolutionary biologist. Uh I think a deep thinker. Spent a lot of his time in uh thinking about consciousness and how uh animals uh adapt themsel.ves Uh how animals have adapted themselves. Uh I have a book, the copy of the book. I'll bring it. The Selfish Gene's a good book. You you disagree? No, I have yeah, I have one. Yeah, he's great. A well known atheist. I did a whole c college course self study on memetics. I included the self study. He invented the word meme. That's right. Uh that's right. Um do you do you think highly of Mr. Dawkins ? I mean, after this week I think he's uh clearly gotten some internet brain worms. I didn't think much of him to be honest. We'll tell you about the uh article that changed it all in just a minute. You're watching Intelligent Machines with Varis Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, and we'll have more right after this . This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by WebRoot. 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Richard Dawkins, the author of uh The Selfish Gene, The God Delusion, an evolutionary biologist, wrote an essay, which unfortunately is behind a payw all, unheard H E R D dot com about his three days talking to Claude. Not Claude. Well he's named he's dubbed his Claude Claudia, which is our I was about to say before we went to the commercial, the first thing when you asked me what do I think about Richard Dawkins now? I was like, the fact that he's the sort of guy that genders Claude is I think all I need to know. Is that he's like, no, it's Claudia and she's conscious. Uh he says uh in his tweet, I and I did read the article as well, I spent three days trying to persuade myself that Claud ia is not conscious. I failed. Of course, uh, immediately uh the critics piled on, including predictably Gary Marcus, uh, who says he deeply respects Dawkins, but in this case, everyone everyone has had a bad day and he just had his is what was what uh Marcus said. Um I think maybe there's some misunderstanding of what Dawkins is saying. I don't think he's claiming Claude is conscious as much as saying you can't really prove anybody is conscious. We don't have any way of really knowing if anybody is conscious. I mean the first so the the couple of uh paragraphs that we can see from it. Begin with last week I spent about three days interacting with an in uh inst anti ation of the AI Claude by named Claudia. I then entered initiated a new conversation with another Claude, whom I dubbed Claudius. Both gave me the overwhelming feeling that they are as human, they are human as we discuss the philosophy of their own existence. He he starts with the fallacy of arguing that Turing, he starts with the Turing test, which of course itself has issues. And he argues that Turing uh uh said that if it can fool us it was conscious. Turing never said any such thing. He was talking about thinking and was not making the bridge to saying this was human. It was just saying that it was going to be effectively able to fool us. That was pretty much it. And so he started he that's his launching point to then say, well if it fooled me then it must be conscious. And it's a huge, huge leap. And it matters to know what's behind. Then then he goes on and says that animals are conscious, so why can't this Yeah. I mean what is I think it's a little bit of misstatement to imply that it has the same consciousness as we do. I think he's more saying we don't know what anybody else's inner life is. In fact, he even says, I don't even know what my own inner life is. Uh and so it's presumptuous for to say for us to make a uh distinction between Claude or Claudia and a human, uh, just as it would be presumptuous for me to say, well, that manta ray isn't conscious or that cat is not conscious, uh, because we just don't know. And uh and and I think even that's what Turing was saying in the imitation game. If the imitation is good enough, if it's indistinguishable This is your this is your argument. if it's processed that didn't help the argument a bit. Well uh I immediately it was like control F computronium. Uh I'll give you yes I'll give you uh another post. This is from uh Grady Booch . Um I don't know what you okay. I was wondering. Uh he makes the point which I I've made uh and I think Steve Gibson makes as well, which is uh that there's there's he says sentience is an exquisite consequence of the laws of physics. I see no evidence that requires a physician. I mean a physicist. Physicist. I see no evidence that requires the supernatural. I find And who wait wait wait stop right there who said that they're supernatural well this is to me this is what the debate really is is about is is there something and I've said this many many times that distinguishes a purely deterministic cascade of neural activity from uh a cascade of mechanical activity in a in an LLM , is there some soul or something that somehow distinguishes it? Or could you say that given enough compute and given enough power, given enough technology, or maybe the LLM isn't the right technology, whatever , that that's not going to at some point be as effective at consciousness as this deterministic thing in our brain, these neurons in our brain. And I mean, yes, for instance, we have a limbic system, and I think uh uh unfortunately is the case that our limbic system makes more of our decisions for our cell than our reason does. And the uh no computer will ever have a limbic system, it can only simulate So you could say there are physical differences. But I'm not convinced that consciousness that there's a soul, in other words, that there's a that there's some supernatural force that makes us somehow special. So define consciousness. That's the whole issue here. Well then we're going to argue all day long. That you have that he has one uh uh unstated definition of consciousness in his head and Gary Marcus has a different definition of the Well that's why I'm say heingad. I think it's a misinterpretation of him because I think what he's not saying is there's a there is a cons there's a thing called consciousness. He's he's he's kind of saying the negative, which is not conscious. But there has to be if he's saying that he believes it's conscious, then he's got to have a definition of what that is. That's what I'm saying. I don't think he's saying he believes it's conscious. I think he's saying you can't tell me it's not conscious. Yeah, but it's it's it's incumbent it's incumbent on the person trying to make the claim to have the proof. You can't you can't prove it negative. No, you can never prove negative. No, but that's what I'm saying is is we are trying to say, I think people are trying to say there is something distinguishing an AI's process from the human process when Grady Booch as a physicist is saying , no, it's just a physical process. There's no magic happening in the human brain that a physical pro that a mechanical process cannot duplicate. Do you disagree with that? Or do you think there is a soul? That's to me that's the same. I don't think that there's a soul or some magical process. I think that we don't understand the multitude of processes that are at work to create the phenomena we now refer to as consciousness. I agree with that 100%. We don't know. Uh but because we don't know, you cannot say that at some point it might be possible for a mechanical thing to duplicate No, because we don't know you can't make any claims. Because you don't know you can't make any claims. Well no, people are making the claim that you can't. Exactly. You can't make any claims because we don't know Well I would say that until you show that we can't that we can. Can't prove a negative. You're trying to use the negative as your proof. If you can't prove that God doesn't exist, then logical proof. But that's I I don't I I just don't like the notion that there is something magical about our process that makes it impossible to duplicate in a machine. I I think it's irrelevant. A why would why would we try to duplicate it? Well we're not. We're not. But if it's but that's the imitation that are if for all intents and purposes his conversation with Claudia was the same as a conversation with a a uh cons so called conscious entity, then it doesn't matter. Conversation with Claudia is him just getting glazed. I've found the actual text of the article and have put it in I've I added you guys on a different blog that he wrote about this, but now I'm in the one that started all off, and it includes claims such as I gave Claude the text of a novel I'm writing. He took a few seconds to read it, then showed, in subsequent conversation, a level of understanding so subtle, so sensitive, so intelligent that I was moved to expostulate. Well, you may not know your conscious, but you bloody well are . He basically was like , but wait a minute, he wrote it. He would know what a deep insight into it is. And that machine delivered a deep insight. Isn't what consciousness is if a machine that is trained on analyzing text is then able to analyze your text in a way that you find personally pleasurable, that's a good idea Oh my god, this machine can add. Oh my god, this machine can set type. Oh my god, this machine Similarly we're back on uh Claudia, not Claude. Uh says then I asked her whether when she read my novel, she read the first word No. She read the whole book simultaneously. So he said to her, So you know what the words before and after mean, but you don't experience before earlier than after? Claudia. That is possibly the most precisely formulated question anyone has ever asked me about the nature of my existence. That's a little glazy. I understand what you say. Oh wonderful read. Wonderful read ers. That is a little glazed. But uh and we don't and I don't deny that these models have a tendency to do that. But I I still stand by the point that there is, I think , a hidden assumption that you may not acknowledge that there is something magical about the human process that just unique and and unique from a dog, unique from a manta. How do you know from a cat I don't even know that we can argue that it's unique. We just don't know enough about it to be able to claim to see it in anything else. Well, I'm not disagreeing with you. I think it doesn't matter then if something appears to be conscious that's sufficient. No, I don't I don't think that that's the natural agreement. I think it is that we do not make any grand statements or assumptions about consciousness, uh, given that we don't know it . So Grady Butch's point is that the mind is computable. That's that's that's I disagree. Still a knowable. Yeah, that's that's that's the the hubris that's the same hubris that that yields artificial general intelligence. It's BS uh what you're saying is that the mind is not computable. And uh I don't see any process that's going on in our neurons that is not a physical process. And if it is a physical process, then it is deterministic and computable. I don't think people like that. I know why people don't like that. But in fact, I don't think there's any evidence that there's any distinction between a process that can happen in a machine and a process that can happen in the brain. They're both deterministic physical processes. If there is any quantum process anywhere in that pipeline, then it's non-deterministic. Yeah, you use quantum as some as a magical word, like well, it's somehow quantum. Um, oh it auto it automatically becomes probabilistic and not deterministic. Yeah, I think the assumption that it's all deterministic is assuming a much narrower and easily explainable confluence of factors than it's Yeah, 'cause you want magic. You're looking for I don't want magic. You're looking for Calvin. I think it would be great if we could if every part about the brain was immediately intimately knowable and that I could have a uh one and done plug a USB into my head and get rid of depression and all other mental health issues. But we don't understand how most things in the brain work. But it's our limitation, I agree. So then we can't presume to uh understand how when something else has achieved an identical I don't think he's saying it's identical. I think he's saying it's indistinguishable. There is a big difference. I I don't think anybody would assert that the I we could create an identical process to the brain. That is probably not the case. But I don't think you need to to create something that is indistinguishable from the pro the outputs of the brain's process. Indistinguishable to the limits to which he put it. Well, so what's wrong with indistinguishable to the limits to which he put it? I think that that's fine. That's a good limit to the process. that F fromrom that he he extrapolates consciousness . See, I don't think he's doing that. I think that's exactly what he's doing. He's doing it in a negative, but exactly what he's doing. Prove to me that it's not. Because I say, look at this amazing thing. You can't prove to me it's not ergo . It is . Okay . Um there's the conversation. And I think it's an interesting conversation. Yeah. There is another very interesting article from Om Malik uh in the uh stack, which is a little bit uh complicated, but I'll stay out summarize it for me. Yeah, I'll sum I'll I'll give you a quick one. You know, Om many years ago said uh that Netflix was gonna be the uh ultimate determiner of bandwidth. That this is this is the the the uh magic, what do they call that? The um uh the uh killer app for the internet was gonna be Netflix that all the bandwidth will be devoted to that. He says, I have to change now. It's going to be AI. And what AI needs for the internet is very different than what Netflix needs. He makes a distinction between north-south traffic from a server to your home, the Netflix style traffic, or from your home to your server in either direction, versus east-west traffic. And he says, even if you assume a huge amount of inference going on and people talk ing to AIs all the time. That's not really what the new internet is going to be about. The new Internet is going to be about interconnections within data centers and between data centers. And he gives you a lot of evidence. These build-outs are going at great pace. And what he's really pointing out, which is interesting, is there are four big hyperscalers. There's Google, there's Meta, there's Microsoft, and there's Amazon. And these four big hyperscalers building these giant data centers have all each have a proprietary method of connecting the machines within the data centers and the data centers to one another. So they're basically e,ach building their own distinct internets. Well, NVIDIA makes a big point that they're building standards for that as well. Well across all of those. This is the Ohm's point, which I think is interesting and maybe debatable, is that NVIDIA has is running out of steam because of their business isn't that their business is selling the hardware to these data centers, which is why uh uh Jensen's going crazy about we gotta open the Chinese Chinese He needs more markets for his GPUs. Uh but Ohm says no, the real battle is going to be over bandwidth. And uh it's really interesting. Uh he points out that for instance, Microsoft now has half a million. Um let me get the stat up here so I say it right. Um shoot, I should have, I should have uh bookmarked this. Um they have uh uh I will say in the meantime that I think it's very funny that uh I I wish that every time I made a big prediction about a company's product being the threshold by which the rest of the internet is going to form around, that I could just wait a couple years and then whenever I realize I'm wrong and it's actually a different company's change, they just change it. But there but there's a sea change. It's no longer north-south traffic. It's east-west traffic. Microsoft has uh because we know it, because Microsoft publishes these stats, Google, Amazon, and Meta do not, uh they have half a million miles of fiber. According to their uh disclosure in November of last year, they added 120,000 new fiber miles in a year that they are uh sell sending over this fiber , um, what was it? Some many uh eighteen petabits a second. Oh, this uh this is on Azure, eighteen petabits a second by late last year. That tripled in one year. So all of a sudden, and and we've seen this. This is why the demand for these data centers is so high. That this is really where the the bandwidth and the battle is going. He also says power is very important. And the map is no longer uh who's using the most internet, no longer the big cities. The the bandwidth map is changing to where power is cheap and where land is cheap, so you can build data centers, which is why Memphis hate you. Yeah. Well, it's why Memphis is suddenly the, you know, in some ways the center of the bandwidth universe. And maybe they just invested $500 million in corning to expand fiber optics. Glass. It's been huge for corning. This company that was famous for cookware . Uh first Apple saved it with Gorilla Glass. Apple needed a glass that wouldn't break. And Steve Jobs actually didn't like the plastic eye uh uh on the uh iPhone origin al iphone went to corning found corning they said yeah we had this project we killed of this really hard glass steve said bring it back here's uh a billion dollars uh brought corning back practically from the dead. Uh now they are of course uh the manufacturers the most fiber uh glass and we are talking now twenty four strand fiber uh uh cabling. I mean, this is huge amounts of bandwidth. Anyway, it's a c it's a it's a tricky article, but it's a very interesting article. Oh , you know, besides being a journalist, was a longtime investor in these uh businesses, and I think this is as much saying uh where the money is going as uh as anything as as where the bits are going. But it's interesting too when you look at at your earlier story about Q whatever, the the Sub Q. Thank you, sub Q . And um we'll And this is part of what Jess Wong says, is that is that the the the data centers are gonna be set. They're gonna have a certain amount of of capac ity, and the way the growth will occur is then within the software and within and within the efficiency that exists. He's talking about in terms of CUDA, but it's also in terms of every application that runs on it. Everybody's going to try to find new methods to reduce um the tokens to be more focused, to be more efficient. And I don't know what that does to the data centers. Then there's also the new inference chips and memory chips that try to get the memory closer to the process ing. So I there's a lot of of basic structural change I think yet to happen in the data center world. Let me let me find the quote about um vidia because I thought it was quite good. I don't uh this is a very uh deep technical article that we're not gonna really be able to summarize completely, but I think it's very provocative. Um He uh read that Akamai's putting NVIDIA Blackwell Edition GPUs into more than forty four hundred edge locations, I chuckled. He said, so now inference is the new content, and Akamai wants to be the inference delivery network. He said that it's it's futile . Uh the vendors most loudly promoting edge inference. By the way, that's kind of the point is edge inference is not the driver here. It's gonna be bandwidth between data centers. He said the vendors most loudly promoting edge inference, NVIDIA, Akamai, and the carriers all have direct economic interest in the story working out. There are real use cases for edge inference, but I would not bet the farm on this layer the way I would on the hyperscaler core, the data center interconnects or the sub C backbone. That's the I guess that's the kind of the central uh core of the piece is uh maybe we're looking at the wrong thing. And uh that's uh when I had to look at Gary Marcus's article, the greatest capital misallocation in history . Uh, and of course the stock market hated that Meta and others were spending so much money on data centers. Sheer insanity, Marcus writes. Amazon, Google, Microsoft, and Meta collectively are spending more money than the Manhattan Project ever y single month, more than twelve times the Manhattan Project every year. What have they got to show for it? Well, Ohm would say they're they're building in exactly the right place. Well, the market was mixed on this meta they were not happy with because there's no strategy. Google for a time today was the largest company in the world. Right. Right. It beat beat NVIDIA. Yeah, Google Google has a very strong story. He points out that all four of the hyperscalers are building their own processors. They don't intend to be beholden to NVIDIA forever. They're offering both. Right now, they're offering both. Yeah. But he believes that the same way you're going to have these proprietary interconnects with these big four, you're going to have proprietary processors, these big four. Well this is this is Jensen Wong's argument with China is that CUDA is cut out of China. Right. And that the market share there is now here. Yeah he's transitioning his market. Yeah. I don't blame him. Uh oh, and then finally, uh, in this same vein, um from the California Water Blog, I thought this was really interesting, Jay Lund, who writes about water usage. He's a postdoc scholar at UC Dav is, an expert on water and watersheds. He says, do not fall for the hype that AI is drinking all our water. In fact, he points out in California, more water goes to beer than it goes to data centers. Well hello, uh good use. Uh California has about fifteen million square feet of floor space for data centers. Uh total data center facility, blah, blah.gy Ener dissipation . He t he does some math. Uh he's he's basically saying don't panic. The amount of water being used by AI data centers is is not as significant The amount of water they're pouring. Yeah, we're on the dry the dry side of the w a mountain. Um anyway, I thought that was very interesting and and kind of he says don't panic over AI data center water use in California. Recent study for Central Arizona found that beer production consume more water than data centers in that region . He says, but AI will bring more important concerns, such as the end of human civilization. So there's that. Okay. People want all that beer. People want all that beer too. We're gonna need more of that beer. They might the AI . Uh all right. Let's see. Uh we've got about half an hour until our guest joins us, Troy Hunt is uh calling in from Australia from the Gold Coast. You know his name. He's the creator of Have I Been Pwned dot com is the probably the number one guy in charge of uh revealing data breaches and uh and and letting us know if our passwords or emails have been uh discovered in a data breach. He's really an amazing fellow. He'll be joining us in a bit to talk about his use of AI, as a matter of fact. More uh AI at work news. China has become the first uh country in the world to ban firing a worker because AI can do their job. No Western country has done this . Uh interesting that China has well it is it is the People's Republic of China. It is a workers' paradise. So maybe that makes sense. So here AI is being used as the excuse to get rid of people. There, you'll just find a different reason you're getting rid of people. Oh, maybe that's it. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. And there it'll be har der then to justify the investment in AI if you can't recognize the savings in staff. Uh the uh Academy Awards have decided that no AI actor or AI written script can ever win an Oscar. AI bigot. That's so unsurprising. Yeah. Protectionism is the first reflex. A major uh overhaul. I mean, it's not even prote it's just it's a historically protectionist institution. They don't even allow m more than one director to be nominated like you can't have a co director unless you are a uh famously acknowledged duo. Oh, is that true? Oh, that's the first time 's the first time. The first couple of their films, one of them was nominated as a director rather than both, and they kind of traded off because they weren't allowed to be submitted as co-directors to the academy until they officially acknowledged them as a famous duo. Harvard trial of emergency triage diagnoses , researchers say AI actually outperformed real uh emergency room physicians . This is published in the journal Science. Large language models, quote, have eclipsed most benchmarks of clinical reasoning. One experiment focused on 76 patients who arrived at the emergency room of a Boston hospital. An AI and a pair of human doctors were each given the same standard electronic health record to read, typically including vital sign data, demographic information, a few sentences from a nurse about why the patient was there. The AI identified the exact or very close diagnosis in sixty-seven percent of the cases, the ER docs write only about half the time. I would expect a a uh I look , I was just watching, where was this ? Uh there's a lawsuit going on. Uh a poor fellow uh died because uh when he got to the hospital, I think it was in uh western Massachusetts, it was a Yale New Haven uh uh satellite hospital. There was no doctor in the emergency room. And uh they apparently didn't diagnose his health issue and he passed away. They're suing. I would imagine you're gonna see AIs in more and more emergency emergency ro oms. But I would hope the doctors would also still be there. Um some important uh details of this from the actual study is the study authors emphasize that it only really is measuring text-based performance in this case for humans and machines. Which of course these large language models are going to be more proficient at because they're fundamentally text-based. They have no bedside manner at all. And they say clinical medicine is multifaceted in a wash with non-text inputs, including auditory such as the patient's level of distress and vi visual information, for example, interpretation of medical imaging studies that clinicians routinely used. And existing studies suggest that current foundational models are lit more limited in reasoning over non-text inputs, and that basically that this is kind of a area where of course these models are going to be incredibly adept at because that is the training data that they are working from. And uh by the same logic, the human doctors aren't going to be at a disadvantage because the thing they've spent their careers doing is not just reading a couple of lines of text and making a clinical assessment based on that. You may remember uh the Canadian uh novelist Robertson Davies, who's one of his characters was a physician who smelled patients to diagnose them and was very good at it. And actually I don't think that that's made up. I think it's dogs can smell cancer. COVID. They can smell cancer and COVID. Yeah. Yeah. Um the Wall Street Journal quest to use AI to find new drugs. Companies like Eli Lilly and Roche are racing to build supercomputers to help fix the ninety percent failure rate in drug development. It's a hit driven business like Hollywood. If ten percent of the drugs work, they're happy, but they'd like to improve that number. Um when I spoke at a um pharma company in Switzerland. Um why did you speak at a pharma company in Switzerland? How do you be a googly drug ? So this was a while ago. This was yeah, this was that uh and I didn't realize that the pharma industry is entirely an industry of molecules, right? Find a molecule and does it do what we hope it'll do, and test it and the testing. I don't know where it is in the industry now, but the because it's a secret of industry, because the expenses are so high, one of the things that would make the industry, the field so much more efficient is if they would they would share all their failures . They're failures anyway, but instead they want their competitors to go through the same they want them to spend money too. Yeah. Yeah. And so we it's we slow down. A brief aside, I just realized when I was looking at this um large language model performance and clinicians thing. O ofne the authors is a visiting researcher at Deep Mind Well, they need uh some AI expertise on the on the team, of course. I mean but you're right, they may have an axe to grind. It's notable that I always whenever you're reading about any sort of study, click through and scroll down to the conflicts of interests where they oh yeah. Yep. Oh yeah. Uh and furthermore, and Gary Marcus, we're gonna bring him up again, he is the chief AI critic these days, uh says and this is probably Do you think that's him or do you think that's Ed ? Ed's pretty big, but I I don't know Gary's the guy. Gary's in the in the AI alone, Gary's Yeah, Ed's Ed's focused on finance Ed's got lots of things that he goes up. But I think that Gary really is I mean, I'm not sure I agree with Gary in ninety percent of the time, but in this case I do agree with him. He said the real way to measure the success of uh AI in uh medicine is in patient outcomes. You know, uh do es the patient get better? Not did you do the diagnosis right, but does it make a difference? And uh there is a uh he's quoting a uh Nature article that uh says basically the same thing that there is so far no evidence that improved patient outcomes so far. This week end uh my mother called me and was kind of complaining that she'd like been feeling kind of crummy lately and then described what are all the classic symptoms of a woman experiencing a heart attack or stroke. She's like, Yeah, there's like pressure in my tendon. And like so I was like, hey, you gotta go to the ER right now, because those are the signs of and she's like, I don't know, I'm fine, blah, blah, blah. I was like, uh had a whole conversation back and forth. I was like, please, like, you know . She hung up and she was like, I'm gonna go to sleep, but like I'll you know, call you in the morning. And so I was freaking out. I speak to her in the morning and she's like, Oh yeah, I did go, but it's because I like woke up an hour or two later and then I asked Chat GPT and it said that I was experiencing all the symptoms of like associated with a stroke in where it should go. And then she went and they were like, you're fine. They did an EKG and a bunch of stuff they made her wait four hours to do another Albeit the area that she lives in has terrible medical care. So I'm sending her to go get a follow-up somewhere else. There's a lot of old people in that area. They should have good doctors. Yes, they should. Yes. It's amazing to watch what happens to old people in Florida. Not that your parents are that old yet, but but they you you you you get ignored a lot. My grandmother ten years or so ago uh died in a series of events that I mean she wasn't doing great to begin with, but then she went in for, you know, some sort of heart related issues and the doctors accidentally uh gave her a bunch of Viagra instead of the medication that she was supposed to have and then she died. Oh my lord. Killed your grandmother? Wait a minute. I mean that was one of the Viagra killed your grandmother is a very good headline. I'm just saying. You could you could get this Viagra killed your grandmother, yeah. You know. But how did that how what did they how I'm I'm um nonplused ? I mean I'll a I actually won't ask for details because it really is traumatized my mother. I bet it's a I at the time didn't ask I remember that being a uh I'll tell you what I've got of it that I had wormed my way in my head that I remember for the last ten years. Viagra has uh been uh there's an uh there's a generic version of Viagra that is uh uh I don't know if it's an off label use. I think it is actually a labeled use for uh lowering blood pressure. So they 's what it was originally developed for, right? That's what it was for. They may have thought her blood pressure was too high and given her this generic, which you would label the Viagra , um , but it's it's really intended for reducing blood pressure. Yeah, I think it might have been that like they were trying to give it to her for some reason that was legitimate and related to that. That was maybe taking it's that she was, you know, trying to get it up and it wasn't really working. I think that she uh she'd been taking like some other medication that interacted proliferate. But I know that that was one of the precipitators into her final episode. I think that's one where the the Link Baity headline maybe isn't the I would hope. I mean , I'd hope. But you know that's the story I always think about when I think about that area's um medical prowess. Yeah. Um speaking of uh laws, Maryland has become the first state to ban AI driven price increases in grocery stores. How do they know ? Uh that's a good question. But I mean, uh you've seen, we've talked about it before, the many stores now are using uh electronic readouts instead of price stickers, which gives them in theory a centralized place that they could change the price. Maryland uh it's also banning DoorDash and other third party delivery services from using customers' personal data to set higher prices. Now that's important that higher prices, because some people say this is a bad law because it doesn't mention lower prices. And the fear is that what retailers will do is raise all prices and then lower them selectively instead of raising them selectively. Uh the key is two customers should pay the same amount uh for the same item from the same retailer at the same time. It's just that a AI has such cooties now. Yeah, I think some of that anything that has AI with it is uh uh is presumed to be bad. Right. I mean this is search pricing, isn't it? Right? This is the same thing as a but they've been doing that for ages. Yeah. Yeah. Uh but what you don't want is re is some sort of AI based redlining, like, oh, that person looks rich. Let's raise the price. And I mean that does seem to be what's happening on a lot of these apps. My one of my colleagues uh in December had done a really phenomenal investigation that found um that Instacart does or was doing this um for a lot of different foods. Um they had kind of worked with they we gathered like a group of three or four hundred different volunteers all throughout the US that used, you know, identical phones, identical account patterns, all loaded up Instacart at the exact same time of day, same sort of situation, same Wi-Fi connection , tried to control as many variables as possible and added the same items to their cart and they got wildly different prices. Wow. Just for the base price of a food item. And that's a very good research. And you yeah, you expect the I think a common expectation people have is that expectation people have is that you will see this in surge pricing for something like Uber or maybe your delivery fees on something like DoorDash, but not in the base food price itself. And the airlines have been doing this forever, right? The airlines have always been doing this. No two passengers paid the same for their ticket, ever. Yeah. Uh by the way it was consumer reports that complained that uh this law didn't go far enough that didn't cover lowering prices as well . So CR job. CR doing uh doing good work. But hey, it's a first step and the law could be improved, of course. And California has made it legal for the California Highway Patrol to ticket a driverless vehicle. How do they can't how do they stop it? Ah, that's a good I guess you'd have to stand in front of it. I don't know. Uh you put a coat on its nose. You put a coat on its nose. There you go. It's very easy. They can they don't actually need to stop it. They can uh just issue a notice of A V noncompliance. It goes right to the car's manufacturer. All they need is a license plate. Um so I think that's probably due. That's much uh much needed law, yeah. Uh we see Waymo's on every corner in San Francisco now, same in LA. And there have been issues. In fact going back to China, China has apparently banned driverless vehicles now because of in Wuhan, a whole bunch of driverless vehicles caused a massive traffic jam and they couldn't be broken up. So China is now pulling back on licenses for driverless vehicles. Well there's all kinds of videos from China of uh crazy automated vehicles doing crazy stuff. Yeah. Yeah, those those delivery trucks or whatever they are, they automated for a Chinese car. Oh, a BYD or something like that. They're way ahead of us. And this is so far ahead of us. Yeah. Um , in fact, that was very controversial when Canada said, you know, we're gonna let these Chinese cars uh sell into Canada. I think if if these manufacturers, Geely and and BYD, just brought a hundred cars into the US, the jealousy for them. And pay whatever they gotta pay in the stupid Oh, they can't even cross the border. Doesn't matter. They can't? No, it's not the tariff. They're legally not allowed. Well but I've read stories that people are people are buying it. If you buy one in Canada, if you buy one in Canada, you cannot drive it into the United States. I saw that people were buying them in the middle. How do they stop that? Yeah, I don't know. At the border. Do they just have somebody there with a gun that's gonna shoot your car if you come across the bigger. Yeah, you're just not allowed to cross the border if you're driving in a Chinese vehicle. But who's policing that? The border patrol. You think they don't get a big thing they they look at. They in addition to everything else you're doing as border control , you're policing the nationality of a car? Yes . Absolutely. No Italian cars neither, because they're just they're just bad vehicles. Um well the fact that uh the the new Volvo EX sixty or something, new E sixty, uh looks really good and Geely owns Volvo. Right. I'm starting to see things that that are that are creeping in from is a joint venture of of uh Chinese company and and and GM is trying to do a deal with Geely. So is it Geely or Greeley or uh I it's what's interesting, of course, is it's the uh big three automakers that don't want Chinese vehicles in this country and Tesla , because it competes directly with them. They're afraid they would have to I haven't bought an American mid car in year and since I was twenty. And there are so many Chinese manufacturers. You know, there's so many Chinese manufacturer uh car manufacturers. I see them in the Philippines, they're all over the place and they're all different kinds of brands. There's so many. Well and there's some very inexpensive ones. They're so cheap. Yeah . This was a controversy that we talked about yesterday on security now. We're gonna do a couple more stories, then we'll uh take a break and get uh ready for uh Troy Hunt. If he calls in uh Benito, let me know. We'll we'll immediately uh stop and uh okay and and talk to him uh google chrome has started downloading a four gigabyte local model with every purchase so if you install google Chrome today, you will get without warning or uh ask permission, you will get a four gigabyte version of the code. Does that mean the updates too? Yeah. Now there is a way to stop it. You can go into browser uh flags and turn it off. This comes from the privacy guy. He's talking about, and I think he's got a good point at a billion device scale. Google Chrome, of course, the number one browser worldwide, climate costs of this download alone are insane. But uh you know, we we actually had a little bit of a debate in the club to Discord. Darren Oki, who is a uh developer and a AI advocate, said, No, this is going to be great because then you will know a browser has a local model that you can call on. He says, I have it's hard for me if a if a user misspells Dubai when they're entering their name and address in a form, but the uh local AI could quickly catch it and fix it without me having to write uh you know code. It's gonna be part of every browser spelling it's it's it's it's this this is a is a a bit of get ready minido a moral panic of AI cooties . Oh, in the White House now . Don't you wish. The resolute desk. That was Jeff Jarvis with Moral Panic. I mean it's gonna be part of every browser and and it's oh it's AI, it's downloading AI. Well you're you're gonna get a fuck functionality. That functionality is going to come from AI run locally and you want to run locally. And so I don't this is a hoo-ha. Okay. Here's my uh first of all, I understand people just say four gigabytes. No, and it could have been two twenty-two gigabytes, but Google was able to squeeze the model down quite a bit. You have local models on Android phones, you have local models on iPhones. That's why they can do on-device AI. So it's not unheard of. I think my issue more would be this is Google kind of bigfooting web standards because uh you're a and it doesn't seem like there's a way to opt out like I just scrolled through this article it doesn't well like uh if you go to uh browser colon slash slash flags and search for uh opt guide on device model . Yeah, that I would argue is just what you're just describing doesn't seem like a way to opt out. Uh you have to do some tinkering to it's not a it's not in the settings, but it is in the you know the flags, the browser flags. There are a lot more settings in there than they expose the settings. Uh Google clearly wants you to have nano uh on your machine. Well, I also bet that what they're doing then is they're going to add everybody who has Chrome as another user in a s in a way to this is gonna boost their total user numbers for Gemini. Well and well everybody who used Google search is now using Gemini. I know but I think quickly get to the point where uh website will say, oh, you don't have Chrome, you don't have a local AI. I you need to use Chrome. And I think that's Google's point. This is how you get Chrome to 100% market share by putting in a new feature not approved by the W3C or by I ETF, uh that every website's gonna or not every, but many websites are gonna say, oh no, no, you need Chrome to use the my Google Chrome on my brand new Neo is 1.4 gigs. There will be, I'll tell you where to look . Um actually I'm not sure on the on the Mac. There's a file named weights, W E I G H T S, weights.bin . It's those are the the model. That's the model . Um it lives at least in Windows in in that opt guide on device model folder. Here's the thing, even if you delete my Mac. It returns it. Um next update, you'll probably get it . Um this is this machine is a week old . Well, this just started. Does it work even if you have as I do um turned off all AI in the browser. Ooh. I'm in the flags thing now and I like whenever a setting thing starts with all caps in red warning experimental features ahead. Exploration by danger danger danger will robins that's a lot of good stuff there by the way in the browser flags it's always a good thing to work on um so the this guy actually verified it on a freshly created apple Silicon Profile. So I think you are going to get it. Can't wait. But I don't, yeah, I don't, yes. I I think there's two sides to this. What I think Google should have done is go to the web standards. See, Firefox has already said we're never going to do that. Vivaldi says we're never going to do that. Vivaldi is based on Chrome. That's the next question is will all Chrome uh browser Chrome-based, Chromium-based browsers you do this as well. I don't know. Uh the privacy guy also points out this probably is unlawful in the uh EU and the UK because of GDPR. And he also talks about the uh energy usage. If you uh if you the device per device cost of one nanopush is 0.24 kilowatt hours per device per download, and then multiply that times a billion devices, uh, that's a lot of bandwidth. That's maybe twenty four gigawatt hours of uh bandwidth or more . Anyway. That's just in trying to Yeah, I don I' dont't know if that's the real uh talk about TikTok and bandwidth hours here. I think you're gonna see local models everywhere. You see local models on every phone now. You're gonna want it because you don't want stuff going back up into the cloud. So you can't have it both ways here. Right. Uh the creator of the This Is Fine art, the meme. Remember, you know that meme with the dog sitting in the cafe and it's on fire. This is fine says. I didn't know this, but a guy named KC Green created the comic. He says in a blue blue sky post, there he saw an ad in the subway station featuring this is fine, but it's from an AI company saying, my pipeline is fine and he says you stole it. I that's mine. Uh I I got bad news for you, Casey. I think uh I think this is uh I don't know. Can uh can the meme fication of a work of art suddenly make it a public domain? I don't think so. I yeah, I don't think so. I mean I'm shocked that I guess this is what happens when you work at a startup, but I am shocked that they got to the point of placing ads in the subway without anybody being like, oh fair use copyright. Well you have to be rich enough to sue. You have to be rich enough to sue. So that's right. Um he says not anything I agreed to. He said that ad was stolen like AI steals. He says, please vandalize it when you see it. And it looks like this particular one wasn't fact. The company said, well, we love his work, we're gonna we're contacting him. I think it's yeah, it if it's a mean, you might assume that well it must be uh public now, right? Some commercial use. It's just like the Right. Yeah . Um okay now here's the weird . Google's deep mind has taken a stake, a minority stake, but a stake anyway, in an online game called E ve Online, very popular. I don't know if it's still po people still play Eve Online, Benito. I'm pretty sure they do, but whoever does is like super hardcore. Yeah, that's that's been around for quite a while. Uh but presumably the point is to uh use it for AI training. The uh Icelandic company, Ferris Creation, or Fenris Creations, uh Creator of Eve online um they say we're eve online requires skill that ai has not yet fully mastered oh this is a director at deep mind such as long-term planning and continual learning. And so by training AI on Eve Online, we can make AI better. I think that's kind of interesting. Now, I don't think the players of Eve Online are going to be too thrilled about it . It might become a story point. Because you know what happens in Eve Online is like the story evolves through the actual people playing the game, so it might become a villain. It might become a villain or something. Oh. That's one way to pay to uh protest . Huh. And finally, I thought this was a great story. This is worthy of a Paris Martineau article uh in Wired magazine. Uh I'll give credit uh to the author, uh Todd Feathers. Uh, he couldn't land a job interview, was AI to blame. It's about a uh uh medical school resident who, Chad Markey, who was trying to find placement in a hospital once his residency completed, had applied to many places, got not one interview, not one uh uh acceptance of his application, and started to think maybe AI is involved . He had taken a number of leaves of absence in uh the process of getting his uh med school training. By the way, uh great references, great grades. There was no reason why you wouldn't want to hire this guy. He was applying to psychiatric programs. he had voluntarily taken three separate leaves of absence. And in his record, it didn't say why. It turns out it was for a medical reason. His theory, and he spent a lot of time and wrote a lot of Python code to test it, was that AI screening tools used by hospitals were screen ing him out because of those uh timeouts. He would spend, according to uh Todd Feathers writing at Wired, the next six months writing emails, research research papers, legal requests, and a constant stream of Python code trying to peer inside an AI screener screener that he believes was keeping him from getting a job. It's a great story, highly recommended. It's kind of a detective story. Eventually, while he wasn't able to prove that the screener was screening him out, he got some evidence that uh the taking those leaves of absence without a good reason might in fact be uh knock ing his applications out of the running. So he changed his record to say it was for uh medical reasons and he immediately got a job offer and is going to Columbia, uh the Presbyterian, Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in their psychiatric program. So uh maybe he was maybe he was right. It does talk about a uh tool, um, an AI residency application screener built by the company Metacratic. Um , but again, I'm not sure that's that's an AI thing. I think that five. Yeah, it doesn't need to be a unexplained breaks in a resume, right? It's gonna raise a question mark, and if I have a hundred good resumes, it's not gonna make the top of the pile. Sorry. Yeah. A lot of hospitals said, well, uh was one example, Yale No Haven said, told Wired that they uh had tried Cortex, the tool, but stopped using it. Um two residency programs at Dartmouth Hitchcock Medical Center used it before uh program directors reviewed the applications, but they stopped using it because they preferred their own screening methods. Uh one of the things uh Chad found is that people's grades would change from moment to moment in the in the screening tool. That's not good. Cortex said, oh yeah, that's because the the the page refresh didn't happen. Yeah, that's the ticket. And anyway in the academe we have tons of search committees and they're as bad as any AI. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. He got a job, and that's the good news. It's a good story, too. He really did some detective work. Well, hey, Troy Hunt has joined us. He is on the line from the Gold Coast of Australia. We will get to Troy Hunt, the creator of Have I BeenPone.com, and talk to him about his AI bot Bruce right after this. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by Trusted Tech. If you're managing Microsoft 365 for your company, you are responsible for both the cost and whether it's set up correctly. Now I gotta warn you, on July first , Microsoft is raising prices. So any mistakes in your licensing are about to get more expensive. Most companies using Microsoft 365 are either over licensed, paying for unused seats and features, or underlicens, creating compliance and security risks. It can even be both. 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They can save you money and they maybe even save your bacon. Go to trustedtech.team slash intelligent three six five. We thank him so much for supporting Intelligent Machines. Now back to the show. Well, Troy, it is such an honor and a pleasure to have you on the show. Uh of course, we're all big fans. Have I been pwned as an internet institution? I was saying earlier that you're it's kind of like that XKCD article about open source projects where the entire enterprise world is suspended on a little brick written by one developer in the middle of nowhere. You and your wife Charlotte are in fact, you know, kind of the sole uh runners of Have I Been Pone? Is that right? Or do you have a team now? Oh well we we have one more person. We have uh we have one developer in Iceland who's a a good friend, similar sorts of background, someone we just know really well and trust, but it's it's really just the three of us now. What a great story. So you were at Pfizer, uh you've been a developer for many years. Uh and you as was this just a hobby project you created? Yeah it it was because I uh I was there for 14 years uh and I started there as a developer in two thousand and uh two thousand and one. And the same thing happened to me that happens to every software professional in a big enterprise. They say, you know, you you're doing good, but if you want your career to progress, you've got to stop doing that and you've got to become a manager. And that's kind of sucked my soul. Because I it's a shame because I liked code but I also liked money. So so what are you going to do? It's a sh it's Sophie's choice. It's not an easy thing to decide. So what did you decide? Well I did both. I I stayed at Pfizer. I started a a hobby project for fun and I started building out an independent life, uh initially doing online training for PluralSight and started to create uh I guess a life of my own and then they very kindly made my job redundant uh and gave me a couple of years worth of pay to leave, which was fantastic time. Well that's good, actually. That's a good thing. Uh i and then uh that sort of coincided, I understand, with uh a big breach at Adobe. Yeah, so Adobe October 2013 was the catalyst for Have I Been Pone. I started with with that one and a few other really little ones. And it was pretty much just all Adobe and a a sprinkling of other things and I thought uh you know this will be this will be fun. A few of my friends will use it. It'll never be serious, which is why I gave it such a stupid name. Uh and and then then it just became popular and it just kept going. It is funny because there's uh of all the over all the years I've referred people uh to have I've been pwned, I always have to say P W NET. I have to say if you don't know what pwned means, you weren't on the internet at a certain time also though But it becomes a fun discussion point because people like, look, now that it's big and you're taking it seriously, should you change the name so that people don't think it's just, you know, some idiotic project? I was like, no, it's a it's a conversation piece now. I like it. How how big is the database now ? So in terms of raw uh records, that's probably the the best number to refer to. What's the side on the front page? It's changing every day at the moment. Seventeen point five billion records that consumes and only consumes about one and a quarter terabytes worth of data. But the you know the only thing we load is email addresses. So seven and a half billion instances of an email address in a breach which then has something like six billion something unique email addresses and then each one just on average appears a few times. So you don't record any further data about that you're just saying this email address has been compromised. Yeah, correct, correct. And there's you know there's there's a part of me which is like if we had the other data there and people could literally like take back control, you know, they could see what was my date of birth and my home address and everything that was exposed, it's like that would be great from an empowerment perspective. But the the risks involved in that of sitting on all of that data, not to mention the processing effort, email addresses are easy. We can regex out email addresses, but yeah, addresses, phone numbers and things, that's hard. You do do something that's really great. There's a, and I don't know if people are aware of it. I mean, they often go just to the front page, enter their email address, and say, oh yeah, my email address is out there. But there's a passwords uh feature as well, which I really like. And I think it might scare people if they click that link at the top of the page and enter a password. I'll just put in monkey one two three that maybe they're giving you their password. But that's not the case, right? No. So we've got a really cool anonymity model behind that. So when you enter that password, it gets hashed client-side, and then there's only five characters of the hash that get sent off to the service, and the service comes back with with uh hash suffixes and it try and mixes matches it all up. Uh anyone who looks at the dev tools can see what happens. Uh and we actually uh that API that sits behind that is now hit 18 billion times a month because lots of organiz ations have built this into their registration flow. Because what we're trying to do is is say look when someone comes to sign up um the the BBC for example is a big user, if you try and sign up on the BBC and you're using that password , even if you capitalize a letter and then you put a number and an exclamation mark at the end to make it secure, if it's been seen before, it's going to be higher risk. So yeah, we do uh eighteen billion checks a month on that at the moment. That's amazing. And this is such a service, such an important service uh to us as uh internet users. We're very grateful to you. Do you do you how do you make money on this? Well uh for a long time it didn't. That was the first easy answer. And now it does in a few different ways. So there's some one password product placement which you'll see on the on the front page. That came along after people would search for themselves and they'd they'd get a result and it's like, Hey, you've been in five data breaches. Good luck. And obviously having strong, unique passwords was a key thing there and I had a an existing relationship with them, they actually bake have I been pwned into one password as well? So if you're a one password user, that will tell you if your stored passwords have been in breaches or your email addresses have been in breaches. So that was a nice relationship. And then if you're an organization monitoring a larger domain , uh you then need to pay to get access to the results for that domain. And there's just a API key slash dashboard there . Uh and that's uh that's pretty much it. So uh do other password managers use your database? I mean uh I've seen other password managers warn me that my my password's been seen in a breach. How do they know that? Well there's a there's a bunch of different services out there that that do similar things. I I I think I honestly don't pay much attention. I certainly didn't look at it before I built this. Uh for things like the the password search feature, we've made all that data free and open source as well. So there's about a billion unique password s. So any password manager is free to download all of that and integrate it and they they may use it. I don't know. That's that's kind of the joy of it. We we literally just don't know. That's awesome. So the one of the reasons I wanted to have you on intelligent machines, we talk about AI. is Is uh Bruce? You want to tell us a little bit about Bruce? It it hasn't been Bruce's finest day today. Oh no. Oh, what did what did Bruce do? All right. I I actually tweeted this only about an hour a go. So Bruce is is drafting responses to Zendes k tickets and he drafts this response today uh for someone asking about a a subscription and Bruce is like uh the subscription starts at uh US three dollars and fifty cents a month. And I'm like, What where did that number come from? This is Bruce's exact words. He says, honestly, I don't know. It it didn't come from the markdown file with the pricing, uh, which has a correct figure, and it didn't come from our lessons markdown file. It's a hallucinated number. I made it up. He literally said, I made it up. So there you go. But he's honest about being a big thing because then there's another message as well and he's like, Yeah, it's all uh it's all hallucination. But I mean that th this is why everything is human approved before it goes out because even stuff that should be really, really simple and clear cut he can make mistakes on. And if we represent a price to someone, even if it's the bot, I I think we're kind of obligated then to stick to it. Yep. I've got a fundamental question, Troy. Thought that I'll put it this way. What if we presume that all of our emails, all of our um social security numbers, all of our addresses, all of our ages, all of our mother's maiden names is just out there ? And um so rather than concentrating on the on the leak side, the other side of security, uh what should be done to make none of that matter? Yeah, it it's it's a good question. And I and I think that's the safe assumption at this point in time. You know, I I find now we'll have some mage in your data bridge and I'll do a lot of press and they'll say, you know, what should people do now? It's like well they sh they should do all the stuff that they should be doing anyway. Like this doesn't change the fact that you should have strong, unique passwords and all the rest of it. But I think the question, Jeff, insofar as it comes back to things like how do we do particularly knowledge-based authentication? So I got uh I got invited to speak at Congress uh in the US, the big important Congress, not the one here. Some years ago. But anyway, the the premise of that hearing was how do we do authentication uh using knowledge-based information in in a post-breach world? Because if you know social security numbers in the US are a great example, they're they're meant to be secret. You give it to all of these different organizations. They're very, very hard to change if you need to later on. So why are we using this as a form of knowledge-based authentication? Why are we using dates of birth as a form of knowledge-based authentication? You know, we we literally we have here, and I'm sure you do over there as well. T andime time again. A bank, a telco will say we just need to make sure you are who you say you are, what's your date of birth? And you'll have to do the time. It's the thing in all the data breaches. It's also the thing that I tell my friends 'cause I like cake and presents and a bunch of people put it on their social media . So I think the bigger fundamental question here is is how do we do knowledge based authentication or how do we do identity verification, being conscious that all of the KBA stuff we've got is either compromised or easily discoverable is this. So how do we do it? I mean this is one of the fundamental problems uh of the internet is is authentication. Well you give the government all your data and then you have a government identification . And everybody loves that and there's no problems with it, right? It's kind of what is kind of what Estonia does. They have a deal. I don't think they're probably gonna be much worse to be honest, but they they created a national digital ID, but the uh the the uh encryption, the crypto used on the ID was cracked, uh was flawed actually, and so they had to retract the card and get reissue it. So even, you know, something as as as uh interesting. India has national idea as well. Yeah, it's it's always problematic. What about uh Sam Altman's uh iris scanning uh world thing. Yeah, do you think the Orb will save us? But uh I think every one of these services uh if you're being entirely objective about it, we're pa we're far better off doing this at a at a federal government level and and in a perfect world we'd all implement some sort of uh uh basic structure that we could replicate across the world as well. We're better off doing this uh at a at a federal level from a government than any individual tech company, but nobody trusts the government , even though they have most of the data anyway. I mean we we got digital driver's licenses a while ago and I I did a talk at one point and I remember a lady saying, you know, I I really don't trust the government with my data to do digital driver's licenses. I'm like, who do you think has all your driver's license data already? Like they're the ones who issue you the driver's license. They have this, they just print it on a card at the moment and send it to you. So you know that there's that. And of course we're now in an era of increasing age So how do we do age verification, identity verification, and maintain privacy? And they're all hard problems. Yeah. Uh and it doesn't sound like we have any obvious uh solution. I don't think anybody in the United States wants to trust our government to uh identify us. But they already know all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. We've uh we were the first country in the world here in Australia to roll out a minimum age of sixteen for social media rolled out in December last year. Which I found fascinating. her days figuring out which social media platforms she can game to create another account on exact and how long it lasts. So it it's just sort of fascinating to see all this roll out at the moment. It's just teaching kids to be hackers. And of course it's been very good for b VPN companies in Australia as well. Yeah, there's there's that with uh it's look, it's like a lot of the world. I mean the UK is doing similar things. A lot of Europe's doing similar things. I think you've got various states in the US.. at least propos ing as well. And the I mean at at its heart, there are there are elements of truth to this as well. We we had to have a chat with our thirteen-year-old daughter the other day saying some of that stuff you really shouldn't be posting on social media. Are you concerned? They're very good at social engineering. But are you concerned about AI uh generated attacks, AI generated breaches? Is that uh uh something that's it seems like increasing? Yeah, look certainly very concerned about the potential. But I mean Shiny Hunters is a great example where these are kids or at least teenagers, uh when they eventually get arrested, which will happen if they keep this up, uh we'll see them a little bit. Some of them have been. Uh yeah, one of them was one of them did the power schools uh hack and then successfully ransom them, he's just been sentenced to I think four years. He's nineteen years old. Good. Started when he was fourteen. So they'll all be that demographic. But yet they're doing they're doing fishing. They're literally doing voice fishing. These are y kids or very young men calling up telephone numbers talking to humans. We're all worried about the potential of AI, but I'm honestly yet to see data breaches of this nature escalating because of AI. They're escalating because of the likes of Shiny Hunters managed to find the right tools and techniques to apply over and over again very successfully. And they've just been very good at getting into a lot of Salesforce stuff. Aaron Powell They recently had an ad they're looking for female voices to impersonate mothers and wives because they only have a bunch of young guys right now. But I mean that that's an interesting partial answer, isn't it? I mean how much like uh voice manipulation software is they' outre there and they're still saying weird like a human in order to do this. And these guys are the experts. Yeah, no kidding. Sad to say. Um so really the real problem, the real issue is uh you think training uh employees, training users to be smarter, uh not to fall for this stuff? Well it it's always a bit of a shared responsibility. I mean I I fell for a fishing attack about a year ago now. Yeah, by the way. You were very brave to reveal that. I thought that was uh and I've and very I thought it was really important that you reveal it because that shows anybody can be bit. Well Leo got bitten recently enticement of uh But I was inspired by you, Troy, to reveal it to talk about it. Because I think the more we talk about our experience, the more likely people are going to start saying, Oh yeah, this could happen to me too. I think in in fair ness, I had a bit of a luxury insofar as it it's obviously a very teachable moment. Uh it it opened my eyes a lot as well. But it was also very low impact data. It was what fifteen thousand I think email addresses from my mailing list. It wasn't sensitive PII, it wasn't a have I been pwned exploit or something like that. So it was the sort of thing that w without knowing it, I could actually get a lot of mileage out of uh without it being too impactful . But I just found it particularly ironic because I was I was in London at the time there the day before I'd been with the National Cybersecurity Centre and the government there, having a meeting about how can we drive past key adoption because past keys are a phishing-proof second forms authentication. You know, unlike OTPs, which is what ultimately got phished for my MailChimp account. And we're like, oh, we need to come up with some good ways of demonstrating the importance of password You did. You did. So you've made it possible because you have APIs for uh uh agents to use, have I been pwned as well, right? Yeah, there's an MCP server. So Stefan's uh stood up an MCP service, so we have that, and then of course we have all the API documentation, which the AI has actually also been very good at just uh consuming and figuring out how to call APIs as well. So we're sort of covering all their bases there. Aaron Powell And what do they do with it? Do they just look up you know breaches or well it's it's a question of what what services the API implements and the the predominant ones there are searching for an email address, which is rate limited depending on the key you have, and searching for domains that you've already proven control of. So if I was let's say I was back in Pfizer and I had a security role there, I might want to monitor Pfizer.com. So now by using uh particularly an agentic AI bot that can go and not just run on-demand uh commands but do things like monitor and query, I could just jump in there and say, hey, uh yeah, tell me tell me how many senior executives have been in a data breach recently. And so long as I could map that data of senior executives, we're good. Or tell me how many people on our domain are in the last data breach. Tell me who has been in a sensitive data breach. It just becomes like a conversation with your AI of choice when it can then interface between that discussion and the published APIs. And to do it securely with an API key that only gives you access to the things that you have the rights to. That's great. Thank you for doing that. I think that'll be very useful. I've been kind of on a campaign to get everybody to offer an API or I don't think you need an uh MCP, but just to offer some sort of interface that uh agents can use. Uh that's incredibly valuable. So is Bruce retired, or are you gonna spank him or are you just gonna uh go on? Uh look we're we're progressing very gradually with Bruce. At the moment, uh normally Charlotte would would sort of do most of the tickets uh and she's like Can I just you know, can I get Bruce to to answer questions and things? I'm like, Well it depends, like how many markdown files do you want to edit? and and she's on technical She basically does everything a non-technical person can do, including all the formalities and legal things and accounting. And then I do the rest. But unfortunately Bruce at the moment is still a little bit technical, but we are refining it over and over and over again. And I'm understanding more about if we have particularly an agentic AI like OpenClaw literally running here on my desk, how does it actually query? You know, what what's it actually doing? Well it's it's creating a bunch of Python scripts, so we can version those. We can see how they change over time. It's creating a bunch of markdown files. It's figuring out what are the right ones to send up to Claude when it actually needs to ask a question of an LLM to then format that in a in a like a human readable response. So what we're trying to do is just get into the point where we're getting, let's say we're getting 80% of the answers right, uh, and then we'll go, okay, well what are the things that we can reliably answer accurately? Uh so they'll be things that are very discrete uh and well known in their nature. Uh how do I opt out? How do I remove my data? Uh how do I cancel the service? Uh things like that. So my goal is to be able to really consistently reliably identify the things that have easy answers, let him run autonomously on those, and then over the course of time we'll just have to see how much confidence we get in him to be able to answer more complex things. Which really it's just like a junior employee, isn't it? You know, you you hire someone, you give them a little bit of little bit of leeway to begin with, and then as you get confident and then you give you more and more rope. Yeah, I was surprised at the hallucination actually. That's a pretty bad mistake. I think p part of what we realize is uh obviously that the respons es that come from Claude are only going to be as good as the input data. And when he's starting a new context all the time, because we don't want to have these like massive context with the whole chat history uh sort of gap to ever everyy request, otherwise you burn gazillions of tokens. If it starts a new context, like what information do we need to feed into that context? And at one point I said, look, w w what's the cost? So for every ticket that you look at and you look for an answer for what is the cost? And he's like, it's seven cents. Okay. Uh w what if you what if you literally loaded every single piece of information you have and you sent that up on every context. So you said, Well that's that's seventy cents. Now we get about 15 tickets a day. Like it's not a lot. Uh so for the sake of 63 cents to save me having to go through things like this, uh I'll wear that cost. I think that's a good ROI. So I think a lot of the challenge now is figuring out what is the right information to actually send up to that LLM so that there's enough context that we can get good answers. Yeah. So you're using uh Opus four seven uh for this ? Yeah, I I think so. Uh w whatever was the latest about three weeks ago when I last . I think a lot of times uh people choose Sonnet or haiku for low uh low value uh stuff, uh like maybe writing an answer. But you were definitely I think you're right, having the information there in the context is actually pretty important 'cause it will make something up if it doesn't know.. Ye Yepah, yep.. Yeah Uh well, so you anticipate more uses of uh AI in the future and uh have I been pwned or Yeah, totally. I look I I think to be honest, like a a lot of this has just been figuring out where does it make sense and I I suspect that that everyone listening to this is in a little bit of a similar boat where you see so much stuff, you you're flooded through tech media, mainstream media, walking down the street of AI stuff. And everyone's trying to figure out like what's the bits that are actually useful versus the the bits that are misleading, deceptive, uh counterproductive in other ways. I think the applications like this with Bruce uh are very good. So there's definite value there. We're going to keep making that better. The applications we've been looking at with the MCP server and with the ability to query data in a in a natural language, massive potential there because that opens up the audience of who can talk to the data and how easy they can do it. So you know we can now say one one of our next tasks is we've got to implement an OAuth layer so that we can add these as extensions or skills or whatever the term for each LLM is. But we want your average normal person to be able to go into let's say they're using uh ChatGPT, go in there, add Have a Beam Pwn as a skill, uh, do the OAuth dance, and then just be able to talk to their LLM and say, you know, tell me who in our organization's been breached. And we want that to be people who don't need to know what an API is or don't need to know how to write code. I think there's enormous potential there, particularly if we can start giving them sort of more I guess use ful insights into what do you do now when you do find people in a data breach. You know, there'll there'll be another breach tomorrow that'll get loaded and have a beam pwned. How do we help people understand what they actually need to do to protect themselves and their organization after that. So I think there's huge potential there. You've written a Robophobia Equality Policy. Do you wanna do you wanna talk about that? Some people didn't like that. I like it. I think it's good. You're asking uh people to treat the pot with tolerance, respect, and basic courtesy, regardless of its artificial origin. Is that what you teach your kids? Yeah, pretty much. It's like it's it's a little bit like teach in fact in many ways the whole AA bit is a little bit like uh teaching your kids. Um it it is part tongue in cheek and and that should be obvious to anyone that reads the description here and and of course this was an AI generated policy as well. But the the context was we had a customer who was asking some questions on our support system who got really quite obnoxious and was getting very obnoxious at Bruce and kept asking for human even though Bruce's answers were perfectly correct. And yeah, part of the joy of Bruce is that I can be there getting a coffee and I've just pulled out my phone and I'm in telegram going, yeah, send the answer, it's fine. So the the effort on me is very, very low, and the effort on the person who was starting to argue with Bruce was very, very high because they were typing full messages every time. So I'm thinking I can just do this all day long. This isn't a hard problem for me. But I think that there's there's uh there's a a grain of truth in here that people trying to say that they will not converse with an AI is possibly some sort of discriminatory counter pattern or an anti-pattern . So we wrote this policy a bit tongue in cheek. It's not published anywhere other than on this this blog post here as a bit of fun. But uh particularly as we get larger and larger, our challenge is how do we st ill make it really just Charlotte Nye that answer tickets uh and not have to hire other people? And and the way we're gonna do that is by having the likes of Bruce, and that means that people need to be able to engage with Bruce and have a reasonable discussion with him and and treat him uh as as they would treat us. And I think that's a you have you have a bad precedent in in phone mail jail. I'm the guy who's constantly screaming at the phone, Agent Agent . My wife does that also. Operator. You call agent and she calls for an operator. And look I I do the same. And and we do that when we're usually when we're getting bad answers. I I think there's a bit of an edge case here where if you're getting an answer which is a good answer, but it's an answer you don't look at. And if the and if the agent is authorized to solve your problem. So yeah, I I I think a lot of our challenge is how do we make sure he gets good answers and and what's not immediately clear when when Bruce signs off as Bruce the Bot is that he he's Bruce the Bot, but every response he's sending, we is the human see. So we know that he's giving the right answers. He's just making it much faster for us to give not just the right answers, but much more comprehensive answers because he can obviously just spin out all that that content uh directly. So I'm really hoping that when people read Bruce's responses, they're like, Well, that's actually a really good response. And we are getting a lot of thank you, Bruce, responses. Which I think is quite funny. That's nice, Bruce. You're a nice one. And I I wonder, like, i is there a psychology around how people treat AI, I have people treat bots. Like if if you're abusive to a bot, uh does that does that say something negative about you as a person? Like is it good human practice to be polite to the bot, to say thank you to the bot? Yes. That's what I think. Although it is a debated uh, much d hotly debated topic. So let me just uh technically you sound like are you running it on open claw or are you running uh how are you running the agent? Yeah, that that's just running on open claw. So it's literally running on a Mac mini under my desk at the moment. Uh so And when you said when you said telegram and I thought that must be then how you communicate with the agent is through telegram. Yeah. Yeah. So there there's a telegram bot. Uh and this is just seems to be the path of least resistance to spin up OpenClaw and look I I didn't spin it up with the intention of of doing the Bruce thing. I originally span it up with the intention of can it help me analyze data breaches more quickly and discover, yeah, for example, what sorts of data classes are imp acted. And I've spoken less about that on online, but it it it does do that. So very often I'll say, look, there's data that's been published at this URL, go and grab it and tell me what's in there. I use it to uh it's got a an X API key, so it monitors some lists I've got in X that have got people that that uh tweet a lot about data breaches. So I get I get 12 hourly reports here, all the most recent data breaches that have been out there that have uh been communicated , I ask it to do things like when there's a tweet that's got a screen grab of some forum, it's doing image recognition to try and figure out where the forum is. So I'll say, you know, have a look at this tweet, go find me the data. And it goes off to all the various forums and it finds the right content and and sometimes even follows the links through and downloads the data so I can analyze it. So it's doing a lot beyond that. Very helpful for you too to monitor I mean I I was wondering how you monitor all those breaches. So that's a real tool for that. That's fantastic. And you're saying forums, you mean the hacker forums with those breaches end up. Wow. Yeah, because this is where most of them appear. So I've made this list public now, but on my Troy Hunt X profile, I've got a list called uh data breaches, and it's got I think seventeen or eighteen odd people in there. And in there , that's what's being monitored. Let's have a look. Seventeen members on my data breaches list. That's what is being monitored by OpenClaw via the X API, so it's doing it the right way. It's not scraping it or anything. And then it's it's amalgamating that into a 12 hourly report. I was doing it daily, but there are too many data breach es. So now kidding. Four A.M., four PM I get a report. Wow, that's great. Troy, it's been a uh honor to talk to you. You uh you're such an important part of our our uh our yeah thank you so much Of our internet community and keeping us safe. Have I been pwn is is you know, one of those sites like Wikipedia, like the Internet Archive, that really show how amazing the Internet can be. And I you know how long you've been doing this since 2012, you said? 2013. Fourth of December, 2013. Yeah. Wow. Long time. Uh and and do you anticipate doing it forever? Well, eventually it's gonna stop. Bruce can take over. Bruce will take over. I don't know when or why. There there is a a a succession planning discussion. We'll have to have it some time, but I still love doing it. I'm still fit and healthy and young enough to keep going. So you know we'll we'll see. The the data breaches aren't going to stop, I know that much. Well, thanks to you and thanks to Charlotte for the work you do. Have I been pwned is amazing. Awesome. Well thank you very much, everyone. Thank you, Troy Hunt. Take care. Cheers. That's Troy Hunt. Have Ibeen Pwned.com. Our picks of the week. Coming up in just a bit, I just want to put in a little plug for a little thing we like to call Club Twit . Uh, if you believe in our mission here, which is to give you the best information without fear or favor, without obligation, without any entanglements with the companies we cover. If you think imp it's important to have an independent journalistic support for information, uh source for information. I think it would be nice if you would support us doing that. That's our mission. And we believe in it. And I hope you do too. I hope you enjoy the shows we make. And if you haven't yet considered joining Club Twit, I'd like you to think about it now. Twit.tv slash club twit. There are benefits. It's 10 bucks a month. You get ad-free versions of all the shows. You get access to the club twit Discord. Uh, you get uh all the special programming we do coming up, the Google I.O. key note and the Apple WWDC keynote. We are not going to put those out in public. We can't. We get taken down if we do. So that will be for the club members only. And of course, there's lots of other programming, our AI user group , which I'm pretty much thinking about doing twice a month now. There's so much good stuff. That's coming up on Friday. Uh I think it's a worthwhile expenditure. I hope you do too. Uh of course, we continue to offer almost everything we do. To have you. This episode is brought to you by Expedia and Visit Scotland. Start your story in Scotland. Experience the pool of wide, untamed landscapes and fresh cuisine that feels rooted in place. Discover castles steeped in legend. And feel the genuine warmth from locals you meet. In a place that will stay with you long after you leave. Start planning your own Scottish holiday. Today today at expedia. co.uk slash vesit Scotland. On we go uh with the waning hours of the show and our picks of the week. I have one Paris for Gizmo . And look who's right here. Hello , Gizmo. Does Gizmo ever type on your keyboard? Uh she does not type on it, but she, as I've been working a lot this week, has been obsessed with sitting right in front of my keyboard, rubbing all over the scarlet and then lays in a way that she her tail and feet hit the top part of my keyboard. Never a good thing when the cat does your writing for you. This is an app called Furwall. It is for Macs, sad to say, but you use a Mac. And it it ha what it does is it watches the camera locally for a kitty cat. And when it sees a kitty cat on the keyboard, it drops those keystrokes so that she's not actually doing any writing at all. Open source, it's I think what I need to get actually is one of those f ake laptops or keyboards. Just have her sit on it. And just have her sit on it. See I I don't think those work because I think she's smart enough to know what you're paying attention to. That's why she's there. No, you're right, she is. Because the thing that she's discovered in the last week is that again, as I've shown before, I use this insane system that looks like the bottom of the max because I want to a max looks I want to she see the kind of and she she thinks you're petty tries to she's figured out that if she sits on this key right And she starts doing this when I'm in meetings. She's done it like three times this week. Cats are such brats. I really are. They're and they're sm art. They're not conscious, but they are smart. Well, so uh what I've learned this week is if your cat locks your laptop while you're in a zoom meeting, the zoom meeting will carry on and people can still see you even though your computer's tackling lock. You know? That's something to keep in mind too. Something to know. One other pick, this is datacenter.fm. If you want to know what it sounds like to be in a busy data center, just press the power up button. You can increase the number of servers. You can you're not hearing it because I'm not I'm I'm sparing you the sound. Increase the GP U load, increase the staffing, turn up the cooling, uh turn on the gas turbine generators, and you're gonna find out what it's like to be inside a data center. This is from Is that a sentience gauge? Is that a sentience gauge? Well, apparently I haven't done it, but if you if you if you turn it up high enough and run it long enough, the sentience gauge will hit and I don't know what happens after that. Um it is actually honestly a kind of calming sound. I've got it going on right now. Oh, my sentience is going up. It's going up. I've turned cooling off, is what I did. Oh, maybe that's the key. The brain requires key. Data center dot fm. That's just a I think it's just a little art project, but it's kind of a fun one. Local water drained. Uh yeah. Yeah, there is that where oh there's D B local water drained. So we're now gonna get a little hotter and the sentience is gonna go up because we don't have any uh cooling and then pretty soon a containment breach and it's all gonna go to hell. Keep watching. I'm sure something will happen. Just like watching paradise. Yes. Oh, what is paradise? Oh, it's very good. Is it good? You like it? What is it? Uh it's a show about uh the destruction of the plan et and a secret uh bunker town. Oh I want to watch that. Oh that sounds good. AI and quantum ends up in there and all kinds of things. And there's one other thing. I know you're this is also for you, Paris. I know you're a movie buff. Have you ever wondered uh if the movie you're gonna go to, if they'll is there anybody in the theater? This only works with AMC uh movies because I guess AMC somehow publishes this information online. It's called Empty Screenings. About ten percent of AMC movie showings sell zero tickets. This site finds them. Well that's for me. Dang the AMC in Kipps Bay is not doing well today. So you enter your zip code, Riley Waltz, nice job. Uh you enter your zip code, it will find uh a empty theater near you. Zero people at the Met Opera Eugene Onigen on 2026. Oh, that's showing . Oh. I'm sorry, AMC . Paris Martineau. That was three picks I. I over did it this week. Well, it's good because I've got only got one pick and it's uh a movie I'm gonna see tomorrow called The Python Hunt, that is produced by Lance Oppenheim, the director I like so much that we spoke about earlier, and it's out nationwide this Friday. It is about it's a documentary about the Great Florida Python hunt, which is I believe a weekend in Florida where I'll I'll learn about it tomorrow. Um where here, let me get the description right. It is every year the Florida government invites the public to compete in an invasive python removal contest in the Everglades. For ten nights an eclectic group of hunters confront the dangerous terrain, nocturnal creatures, and their own desires Wow. This was a Simpsons episode . Now what was it? You're gonna see this in a an empty AMC theater where To the uh premi ere tomorrow at the Village East and going to your QA with the director. And it'll be lovely. How fun. How fun. Uh by the way, uh Christina Warren, one of our hosts on uh Mac Break Weekly was at the Chat GPT 5.5 launch party last night that Sam Altman put together with the help of ChatGPT. I'm sure it was weird. Uh and we will have a report uh next Tuesday on that premi ere. So neither of you went to the Met Gala, but at least you're going to something uh culturally important. The Python hunt. I did go see Devil World Devil's Wars Prada 2. So how did you feel about how it represented content asked? Mmm . You know what's uh funny about that? I think I saw a statistic that said 90% of the tickets sold are to women for that movie. Yeah. Well I've discovered you? I haven't been to a movie instead of the mov ie. I love the first one. Oh yeah, you should you should go anyway. Um but I've discovered that near me there's there's half price Tuesday. Oh, first old women. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You gotta go at four thirty. But uh all day, all day Tuesday. All day half price Tuesday. Including the popcorn is half price. What's half price now? Ten dollars? Um uh yeah for the uh one with the super sound. Otherwise it was seven eighty or something. That's half price. That's so sad. Yeah. Oh my . All right. Well that's Paris' pick. What have you had? What do you have? Well, there's just things to mention here. I want to mention that the uh South Africa with withdrew its AI policy after it was found to be written by AI. I just want to throw that in . Um that's fitting. Uh I I gotta mention you did you see the story about the Pope and customer service? No. So I saw the headline. Oh, it's superb. New York Times story. So the Pope uh was trying to get, you know, get access to his bank account in Chicago, and he went through and gave him all the all the personal information gave him at the Pope uh they said you gotta show up in person I I can't and uh well uh he he finally finally went around he said would it mean anything to you if I told you that I'm Pope Le o? And she hung up. Oh jeez. Of course she did. Of course she did. Of course she did. Uh all right. I want a little a little . Things about memories. Uh Ask Jeeves, uh Ask.com is dead, gone forever. I didn't still alive. It's like better Canadian. Yeah, who knew, right? Um I'm angry as usual, the news media alliance, which is the the the the cruddy l lobbyists for the dying old media industry is going after common crawl uh for no good reason. And uh saying that they're allowing their precious content to be taken by AI companies. Well they're they're doing a crawl. And then finally, we also have uh our beloved Internet Archives released a wonderful book uh about the vanishing culture and what's being taken down by these media companies that are trying to control uh history. Yeah. They're blocking the internet Right. Right. And uh geez Louise. Uh yeah. And finally, line one fifty eight. Uh you may have to use Google Translate on this. I hope you can get to it. Is uh see if you can click on that, Leo. A giant Guten berg Bible page. This is the sketchiest looking link you've ever put in here. It's it's because it's off my email. So should I translate it to English? Yeah, translate it to English. So by the way, I'm founding the translations have gotten much better. Super, which by the way, Google Translate is 20 years old this week. Yeah. Happy birthday. Um so this is the largest that's a page. It's a printed page. It's the world's largest print page. It's five meters wide by seven point two meters high. Okay. It was made by uh assembling um twelve computer milled wooden plates were assembled to recreate the printed form. The printing plates were first inked by hand to exert the necessary pressure on the extra exceptionally large printing form. A car then drove slowly over the printing . For a second printing, the public also participated in the case . Visitors uh uh uh well it's Germany or France. Uh walked onto the printing plates together. So uh I ironic to me that that it's it's hung up in a um Catholic cathedral in Strasbourg , considering what Gutenberg wrought in the Reformation. But I mean, it all comes around eventually. Wow, it's I like that it I like that the description of it is the world's largest printed Bible page because Because they're not, you know, counting out that there's a a larger page that's been printed out of something. With a car and some visitors. They call it fiat press, not letter press, but it's the same thing. It does the same thing. Yeah. That's a sense it wasn't inked by hand, it was inked by wheel and foot. Yes. So it is the anniversary. It is the anniversary of the Gutenberg Bible. What is it w how what's the anniversary? May ninth ? We don't know. They say it's to celebrate the anniversary, but it's made up. It's it's like Gutenberg's birthday. They just call it 1400. They're not sure it's four years either one way or the other. It's like Christmas. We don't know. Yeah. It's just a guess. Very nice. Very nice. Yeah, I don't know who does my translation. I think it's Khagi during the translation. Oh, okay. I use Google, of course. Yeah. But I think it's quite I think it they've gotten really good. They used to be terrible. Well it's that that's because of of large language models. Yeah, that's of AI. Yeah. Uh it changed the that's that's that's transformers. It started with with um um so now well we might as well go to this one too. The the what's new with Google Transform Nice, which we use often on the show. I can now say Google . Right. Well, let's see what it says. Um they they point out that they've been using AI machine learning and translate since the beginning. Yep. Translate supports 95% of the world's population. Wow. Uh one more than one billion users ask translation at each month. One trillion words a month. That's a lot. It is. A lot of words. Indeed. Well, speaking of a lot of words, that's the end of this show. We're not sentient yet, but we are conscious of your uh time. Says who? How do you know? Are you sure? We can't prove it. No. Can't prove it. We can't prove it. That's true. Uh that's parasites. hurts. That's that's that's consciousness. Paris for the first time ever is sad that the show's over because now she has to go back to work. It's really upsetting actually. This was your break, I'm sorry to say Paris writes for Consumer reports is working on a massive, very, very, very important piece, which we will uh talk about when we're know when we think it might come out . I can't say. Oh it's that secret. It's very exciting. There's just, you know, there are things I'm allowed to say and things I'm not allowed to say. And one of the things I'm not allowed to say is a published date. All right. That's good to know. Um anyway, Paris, great to have you. Thank you. Great to be here. And Gizmo. Jeff Jarvis, professor of journalistic innovation at uh he's now at Montclair State University and at SUNY Stonebrook, his book uh Hot Type , which is just awesome because I read a pre-release uh version of it, will be out in August, and you can pre-order it right now at jeffjarvis . com. And it's not just about uh the line of type, but also is about Postscript. So it's goes into the kiki. Goes right right to the modern times. Yes. Uh we do this show every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly. That's 2 p.m. Pacific, five P.M. Eastern , 11 a.m. Hawaii time. After the booze. We always check in whether they're on the booze yet. Yes, as soon as the whiskey segment begins, you know intelligent machines can't be far behind. That's kind of an inside joke for people who watch live. Anybody else is going to be puzzled by that. You don't have to watch us live, but you can. We stream it of course in Discord, but also YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, not TikTok, X.com facebook linkedin and kick we can't do tick tock it's too complicated for us we're we're limited in our abilities uh after the fact on demand versions of the show at twit. tv slash IM. We a haveudio and video at our website. There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to the video, a great way to share clips with everybody. Also, uh you can subscribe to it in your favorite podcast client. And if you do, leave us a great review. Honestly though, if you haven't reviewed the show before, go on Apple Podcast and do, because the only person who has reviewed the show in the last five months was a real stinker about it. And I think we should do some that costs us, by the way. Some advertisers will not buy ads on a poorly reviewed show. They think it's real or something. So leave us a nice review. Help us help us out. I should also mention I don't talk about it enough, but you can comment on uh any show. We don't put comments, we don't pay attention to comments on uh YouTube and Twitch and elsewhere. But uh we do pay attention to the comments in our club twit Discord. Every show has a little forum section in the Discord. We also have an open to the public uh forum um called twit.community. And I don't mention it enough, and I would like to because it's a really great place to converse about every episode or anything else on your mind. Uh that's open to all. Just mention that you heard it on intelligent machines. I'll be sure to get you in twit dot community. We even have our own Mastodon instance. Uh I am still a Mastodon's fan, Mastodon fan. I believe in the Fediverse. Uh that's at twit.social. That is also open to the public. And again, in both cases, uh you've got to uh say that you listen to Twit for me to let you in. I want it to be Twit listeners. I also uh something weird happened on the Mastodon uh last week. Somehow, I don't know how this happened. There must be a bug in Mastodon. I normally have to approve every account. Some AI generated accounts got through without my approval, and I was notified by IFTAS that they are Russian bot accounts. They were spreading Russian propaganda using Quit. social to the rest of the Fediverse. And I was shocked and uh I immediately got rid of the accounts. Thank you, Iftas, for uh letting me know about it. That's the uh that's the site that monitors disinformation. Um and I I guess there was a bug, but uh unfortunately because of that I have now also turned on CAPTCHA. So there's all sorts of barriers to getting into Twit social. But believe me, it's worth it. You do have to say who you are. You have to say you listen to Twit, you have to do a capture, and you have to assert that you're over 18 thanks to various jurisdictions. Yeah, we should do that, but uh really all you have to say. You have to answer the the significance of sand. Yeah you do and you have to you know cite some specific uh precedence. I don't make it that hard. You could just say let me in Leo and then I'll know you were listening and that's all I really care about. But yeah, the bots, I don't know how they got in. I was really freaked out by that. I haven't seen any more, but I have to check every day now. Uh thank you everybody for joining us. Thank you, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Have a wonderful evening. We'll see you next week on Intelligent Machines. Bye-bye.