Internet Archive and Generative AI

It's time for intelligent machines. This week we interview Chris Stokelwalker. He's a British tech journalist for the BBC, The Economist, Nature and Scientific American, and he wrote a book called How AI Ate the World. We'll talk to Chris about how he uses AI for news gathering. Intelligent machines is next podcasts you love from people you trust . This is Twit ch . This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau and Jeff Jarvis, episode 870, recorded Wednesday, May 13th, 2026. Meet me in Alaska. It's time for Intelligent Machines the show. We cover AI, robotics, and all the smart little dood ads all around you in your house, everywhere, in your car, in your baby carriage, uh Paris Martinot is here from Consumer Reports. She's Cars and baby carriages, those are things that I have. You do not have either one, do you? No. Yeah. That's pretty amazing, actually . That's good. That's good. You live in the city where people don't have children. Uh also Jeff Jarvis is here , author of Brand New Book, Hot Type, Do Out Any Day Now. And of course, magazine, the web we weave, the Gutenberg parenthesis, but hot type is available at Jeff Jarvis.com. Get it now, you get it in August when it ships. Can you can you believe that I'm the one person in this trio who's not caffeinated ? Oh. I actually really can't believe that. Yeah. Can you imagine me on caffeine? That's why they had to take it away from you. You're too powerful. It was his elixir of power. Yeah, Paris and I just spent the last 20 minutes before the show talking about coffee preparation. Oh my Jeff. Poor Jeff. He's descending into the crevasse of madness along with me . We're gonna call it Paris' poor Over Party. It's uh new uh feature on uh intelligent machines. Actually, no, we have a great guest. We wanna want to get to the guest. This is a recording uh I actually did uh a couple of weeks ago with a British uh journalist named Chris Stokel W alker. Chris is a very smart person. He covers technology for a variety of sources, including Wired, Scientific American, Nature, The BBC . And he wrote a book a couple of years ago called How AI Ate the World: A Brief History of Artificial Intelligence and Its Long Future. I asked Chris to tell us a little more about the book. Chris Stokelwalker, our guest on Intelligent Machines This Week, British Tech Journalist. You've probably heard his podcast, Tectonic. He is a uh maybe you've read his book. Came out a couple of years ago, How AI Ate the World A Brief History of Artificial Intelligence and its long future. He's actually rich written a number of books for normal people, which I commend you on, Chris. I try. Yeah, I try. I try to do that. Yeah, it's difficult. These things are complicated. Uh yeah, your first book, which I thought was really interesting, YouTubers talked about something that's become painfully obvious now seven years later, that uh YouTube uh I always I use the Dylan phrase, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more. YouTube really uh exploits its creators by uh promising, you know, great rewards and but only uh delivering it to a small percentage of creators. You revealed that long before anybody really else knew about it. You also talked about TikTok as a geopolitical weapon. Are you kind of happy that the uh US has forced the divestiture of uh TikTok? No, I think I think it was just a geopolitical pawn, right? I mean, it it doesn't solve the issue around the supported uh purported national security risks that we've heard about that were kind of first the fixation of the Biden administration, then of the Trump administration and obviously of Donald Trump back in twenty twenty as well. Um so no I mean like it just seems like it's an unhappy conclusion for everybody. But yeah thankfully it hasn't ended TikTok's supremacy in the US, it seems like that just runs pretty much parallel to everything else. It's exactly the same as it ever was. The UK did not do this, right? TikTok in the UK is the same. It's just the same. Yeah, we've yeah, we we we we've had like uh we had a head of steam similar to you around about the same time, ditto with the European Union where basically you are not allowed to use it within the European Parliament and the UK Parliament because of the purported national security risks. Yeah. I mean if you want to draw a line there, fine. But I do think it's interesting that like this is scary enough supposedly to have a an attempt to ban it and to not allow any parliamentarians to use it, yet it's absolutely okay for everybody else to do so. So I mean I don't quite know where that line is drawn and and quite why it's done that. But you know, that's fine for it. Yeah, exactly. Actually the UK we,'ve been talking about it quite a bit, uh has has enforced uh age verification on uh social media. Uh you're right there in the center of the universe on that one. How how do you feel like that's going? And is it uh is it a success? Um I mean it's a success for VPN providers, right? This is the thing that they sold a lot of VPNs. That's yeah. I mean the so so the UK government is is saying that this is a massive success, not really, because ultimately all it did is push people towards either fringe websites or to VPNs. The reason why it came about the Our Online Safety Act, which was designed to uh try and keep kids safe, ended up having just too big a drag net. So uh you know there was reporting around the time when it was implemented that like hamster hobbyist websites, people who kept hamsters as pets, suddenly felt like they had to throw up some sort of age verification check. I know you're getting that in the US as well at the minute in terms of this. It it doesn't really work, right? Although, to be fair, the UK is doing one good thing, Leo, and that is you know the Australian approach towards uh you know, banning social media for under-16s. We've got a load of stuff happening across Europe, Greece being the most recent to implement this for under-15s uh by 2027. The UK's kind of taken a step back and gone, you know what, we're gonna look at the data , we're going to look at what happens in Australia, we're going to look at what happens in Europe, and we're going to take hearings from the general public and from experts before we move, which is you know quite temperate of them. And I think not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, prudent. Uh although you know the early reports from Australia, it's it's really interesting because of course they're gonna focus on the teens who say, Oh, thank goodness, you you're protecting me and less so on the marginalized teens uh who are now disassociated from their social networks. And but that's part of the problem is they haven't had a a voice in the past and now they have no voice in the present. And so you don't hear from them. And I wouldn't worry about them, frankly. Yeah. And the thing that I find really interesting about this is that it it it's like there is a really interesting line of debate which I think is being put forward by people like Taylor Lorenz in the US, which is this is you know, we're pinpointing a problem here, but we're almost attributing the wrong reason to it. So we say that social media is, you know, is killing people's brains, it is causing them big issues, and undoubtedly it is doing that in some sense for some people. But also, yeah, we have to bear in mind: like, you know, I'm in my mid-30s. If you are in your late teens , you have basically grown up into a global recession. You have weathered a COVID pandemic that has directly affected your education. You are now in the midst of the AI revolution, which is apparently going to take all of your jobs and means that you're not going to have any sort of career to get into. So is it any surprise that people are depressed about that? That's not social media, right? That's everything else that's gone on. That's called growing up in the modern world. In your lifetime. So yeah, why are they anxious? Oh, it's Facebook for sure. It's Instagram. That's what's that's the problem. It's very easy. All right. Well we you know this is an AI show and uh and you know you're here as uh as somebody who not only covers AI, but as a journalism professor at Newcastle, you actually teach journalists how to use AI. Am I gonna I'm gonna add the word appropriately? Would you add that word appropriately? Yeah, with caution and within very strict boundaries and only in certain parts of the journalism process, not anything when you actually are doing real life journalism. It's more like a a discovery tool, I think. I'm sorry Paris uh couldn't be here for the uh interview. We're doing this because you're in the UK at uh an ungodly hour here in the US . But uh uh she uh is a journalist. Actually so is Jeff. Jeff also teaches journalism. And I think they both really uh were interested in talking to you uh about the role of AI in journalism. Where do you draw the line? What are the limits? Where do you use it? Where don't you use it? And how do you use it? Yeah, so to me, it's really useful in trying to filter through the fire hose of information that you have to keep on top of every single day. So prior to sort of the advent of AI and and the widespread use of it through things like chat GPT and so on and so forth. And at the minute, like I'm currently running some sort of stack based on a local LLM that is designed to try and filter through a whole load of information and present me with what might be ideas that I want to cover. Yeah, Paris was very interested in that by the way. She thought she wanted me to ask you about that. Yeah well I can I mean I can run through basically. So like I I take a very strong rule that like once you actually get into the reporting, so you have decided that you want to do a story, you want to pitch it to an editor, you then want to report it out. You know, the general process of journalism is that you come up with an idea, you notice a trend, you see something is different or has changed in the world, you then want to tell the world about it, so you contact an editor at a public ation, if you are like me a freelancer, then you can write and and uh speak on and appear on any number of different outlets. But if you are generally contracted, then you are looking to one individual outlet . Um and then you pitch an idea, hopefully they say yes, you then go through the process of reporting, which is more research, interviews, writing up or producing a video and a piece of audio at the end of it. Um so everything, you know, up to the point of emailing an editor, I think, is fair game for using AI, mainly just to keep on top of the world. Everything after the point of actually you are reporting it out, with the exception of Otter, because Otter is kind of like the the exception that proves the rule around AI. Otter.ai, the dedication a tool many journalists use or transcripts. Yeah. And have been using it for years without any qualms at all, even though actually, you know, if you're talking about a very sensitive story, you might want to think twice about uploading it there just before. Yeah, I think Paris uh is is w concerned about uh sources getting uploaded to otter. I don't think she uses it for for those confidential uh interviews. Yeah ditto for like something that is seen as um I need to be much more productive of sources, then I will do the same. Like I I will use an offline version of this. There are good local now there are very good local transcription tools you can use that don't send that information outside your computer. Yeah, I mean like so Whisper you can download a localized version, right? Like it's crazy. I mean like so one of the one of the Otter decided relatively recently, like maybe eighteen months ago, to load a load of AI stuff into it and also double the price. So you know I'm I'm I'm kind of debating whether or not I step away from that. But yeah, so for me it's that idea of as a journalist before I started to integrate AR into this part of the process, I would spend hours every single day trying to keep on top of what is happening in the world. And you know the reality is as journalists we are expected to kind of feed in from lots of different sources, uh, effectively drinking from like a fire hose of content and say, right, here is a thing that is important and pluck it out and then go actually I'm going to present that uh to the rest of the world. And a lot of stuff, if you do that as a human, passes you by. So you know, I started to toy with Claude Code about four months ago when everybody else did. You know, post-Christmas, everybody got excited about it. Um, and thought, well, look, I have on my laptop a whole treasure trove of stories that I have reported out in the past and written. You know, my drafts are there as Word documents sitting in a folder? Can I not just point Claude Code at it and say, hey, look, this is 2,000 of my stories that have been done over the last four years? Can you infer from that the kinds of stories that I inter'estedm in. What is Chris Stoke Walker's brain effectively? And it's pretty good actually. It came up with like a sort of brief, effectively, of the things that I'm interested in. One of the kind of ways that actually you can maybe use that as I could try and see if I could like scrape and download Paris' brain and figure out what she might be interested in and what might be working on. That's you know that that sort of stuff would be uh kind of interesting to do as well as like not opposition research, but to try and you know collate a a group of experts in their field and understand what they might be keen on. So I kind of used that and then pointed it at a load of the RSS feeds that I already used to sort of scroll through day by day and said, Well, look, can you kind of do some matching for me? Can you say, Well, you're not interested in this fire in a tower block in Hong Kong that appears because you are subscribed to an RSS feed that has maybe five percent of it is about the latest chip developments in China or in Taiwan, but actually, you know, it has an awful lot of stuff that is very local to that part of Asia that is not anything to do with tech. And can you pluck out those bits of information and present them in a different way? So I have a whole bunch of different attempts at doing that. I have like um a bunch of emails that get sent to me every single day. So I have uh like a a morning brief that tells me what it thinks is the story of the day based on my quote unquote brain and fifteen other sort of supporting stories. Um I have something that also I saw the New York Times has done, which is one of the the joys of Claude Code and kind of the ability to vibe code your own sort of tech stack, uh which is like a podcast monitor. So it uses Whisper and it it it downloads, uh transcribes and then passes through those podcasts. Yeah. And gives you This is every podcaster's nightmare. I remember Sachin Adela saying, Oh, I don't listen to podcasts. I listen to digests of podcasts in the car on the on the way to work and I thought, Oh great. That's just what we want. But in this is a valid concern, right? Because this is the same thing that is vexing the journalism industry. And as well just cannon fodder. Yeah, precisely. But no, I think that so to me, if all I find cause you know, I I didn't listen to podcasts before I had this. Yeah, who has time? Right. I don't. I d I know. We make podcasts, but we don't have time to listen to them. Precisely, right? And so then I thought, okay, well, at least now I know vaguely what is happening in this podcast and I can then listen to it and actually go, Okay, there is a nugget of news here that might be of interest to me. So it's actually increasing my podcast consumption in a weird way. Right. So I have those emails that come in. They they were kind of wide coded, um I you know I'm I'm cheap. So I I don't I don't pay for the full claude subscription. I got a uh a subscription to uh the GLM series of models. I've been using that too through ZAI. Yeah. Yeah. They've been pretty good. Yeah. They're great. Up until about a week and a half ago when they decided that they were trying to crack down on uh people using it for open claw instances and then basically they drew the dragnet too wide and caught me and many others up. You're talking about GLM. Yeah, they they put in they put in uh I got I got banned temporarily because apparently I So you were using open claw? No, I was not. No, I was no I'm this it was I used GLM to code this stuff. It runs it through GLM . I think that because the token count is quite bursty, they figured that it was like that sort of behaviour. But then they seem to have winded out and now I'm I'm back in their good graces. So is there certainly the irony in that because I am convinced GLM is so close to Opus that they actually are a distillation of Opus, something Anthropic has complained about. So they've been stealing tokens from Anthropic and, now they don't want to they don't want you to steal it uh from them. It's funny, we are in parallel univers es uh because I'm doing something very similar. I think uh you know, for years it's become obvious. I mean, at least 20 years since the beginning of you know, broad use of the internet, that there's a fire hose of information that those of us who are attempting to kind of use it and take it and and deliver journal istic output based on it are overwhelmed. I think everybody's overwhelmed by it. And you know the answer was always human curation. You follow somebody who's doing the work that you're doing, Chris, and let Chris do that work and then you get the distillation of that. Uh but lately uh even those of us on the front line are having a hard time doing our job of of of of you know curating this flow. So do you worry though, but that turning to AI, letting AI do at least the first pass, you're going to miss some nuggets Yeah, I'm going to miss some, but I think that the the the sort of decision and the choice that I've made is I might miss different nuggets, but I'm gonna miss fewer of them. Because you know it's it's that whole principle of you don't know what you've got until you actually see it. And so you're not seeing it all in the first place, you're missing more nuggets, right? Precisely. And I think you know, so like you know, if I if I think about like what I must have missed out on prior to using this versus what I see now, at least now I have a kind of you know broader sense of the the movers of the day, what is going on in the world than I previously had. Or at least I have like the, you know, this is complimentary, right? So this is me still doing the stuff that I did before, but being able to be a bit more conscious and a bit more deliberative about what I'm choosing to engage with more deeply while the AI takes a lot of the strain off me there. Right. Um the f it's just the front end and to underscore that point, you you're doing the human work at the other end. Yeah. You're not replacing yourself with A with AI. No. And and you know I, I I spoke at the International Journalism Festival two years ago, which is a a big conf lap of you know, the great and the good in the media industry. Jeff will probably have been to about fifteen hundred of them or something like that, even though they've only been going for 30, 40 years, I think at most. Um and you know, I I spoke then about on a panel about AI and said I don't think that AI will replace journalists. And I I still stand by that, not least because every so often I will look and see how good it is at producing journalistic writing. Turns out it's not very good, how good it is at actually picking out the core element of what is a story and what is news. It's not very good at that. And also it can't do the job of talking, right? Like the whole point of this podcast is that it is two people talking to one another in a bouncing back way, understanding, reflecting each other's emotions having an interesting conversation you know you can m not well not metaphorically you can digitally look into the whites of my eyes and we can have a an in-depth chat in a way that I don't think you can do with a chatbot or with any sort of AI right now. You say right now. Do you think we will at some point? I worry about that. Yeah, I mean I I'd worry about that, but I think that that's a long time off. And I think that, you know, by using AI for the stuff where it can be used , I can still show my worth for where AI can't be used and can't necessarily replicate me so that you know I can still fine-tune and hone my skills to hopefully always be better than the AI. Like it's a you know it is a race right now. We have to admit that we have to try and keep a couple of steps ahead, I think. And and so if I can spend more of my time trying to be a better, more empathetic journalist for the human stuff while also you know having AI do a first pass of what is interesting and what is important during the day, then you know, all the better. I think that's a really important uh lesson for all of us, those especially those younger people who are worried there will be no place for them in an AI laden future . That's the that's the job at this point is to find the point where human the human addition, the human element is critical , that's where you have a role to play. And to find that and to and to really refine your sense of what that role is and how to perform that role. I think that's really, really important. It's a real important moral from what you've said here. Yeah. I mean it look it's I I train the journalists of tomorrow and yeah they are incredibly scared about AI. They are incredibly negative about AI. They they think that it's just awful. And I go, well you have two choices, right? You can either switch off from that and say, well, I'm never going to try and engage with it, and then what happens is you graduate in eighteen months time, two years time, or whatever, into a world of work that requires you basically to be cognizant of and hopefully use AI in some way and then you really struggle or you try and adopt it and figure out where it can fit into your working life and where you can kind of carve out your own private space that maintains your skills and and improves them and and really showcases them, I think, in the in the best possible way. We're talking to Chris Stoke Walker, who is a freelance tech journalist, teaches journalism at Newcastle in the UK. You may remember him from the Tectonic podcast and his book How AI Ate the World. And that was twenty twenty-four. AI's changed things quite a bit in the intervening two years. Uh anything you would change that you wrote in twenty twenty four? It's still eating the world, in fact, even more so, probably. Yeah. I think a lot of it holds up, to be honest. I do I genuinely think that a lot of it still holds up. The one thing that I didn't really recognise, and it's one thing that I've kind of become a bit of an adherent for, particularly in the last month or so, is just the incredible power of local LLMs. I mean, you know, you were talking about how you use GLM models. Do you use those through the ZAI subscription or do you use them through the API or you lay those things? Uh a ZAI uh subscription, which is a third of the cost of anthropic. Um but I also like you I I would I'm fascinated by the notion that at some point I won't have to do that. I bought a framework desktop with 128 gigs of RAM and a strict halo. The people who are listening are so bored with me talking about it. But the whole point of that is to eventually be able to get more and more uh local because that's the goal and especially with open weight models. So we're not dependent on these frontier these giant frontier companies uh for our AI. I think that in the long run is dangerous. Yeah. And look to be clear, we're speaking as we record this literally thirty five or forty minutes after OpenAI dropped a very subtle hint that they are releasing 5.5, right? So yeah, we know. By the time this airs, it will be out, and we'll know if it's ever you know if Spud is all it was is promised to be or not. Uh but we don't know yet. But I you know we,'ve been using four-seven. There's this mythos or on the horizon. Uh models are clear the frontier models are clearly getting stronger. Are the local models catching up? Yeah, I think so. Or at least I think that they are good enough. I think that's a good thing. Yeah, so I mean I have a whole stack, and this is I guess where we get supernode and like like you Leo, I I about a about a month ago I bought a um not quite as big, I bought a ninety-six gig RAM mini PC with a GPU um and decided to try and set up my my own kind of local LM stack um and and have moved part of that kind of morning routine that I talked about in terms of finding these stories onto that. So I now have like a a process that is constantly pulling every five minutes from uh yeah, you can see an example of it there. This is your blue sky uh post, yeah. Yeah, so uh yeah, I have like uh a a telegram bot effectively that will send me ideas that it thinks that I should pay attention to and then I can use that. So like I you it's it's kind of incredible because I can like for the cost of let's call it Athenaeum, which is a great name. I love it. Yeah. I used to like classical literature and Greece and Rome and things like that, so we're a bit of a nerd in that way. I call mine Kenobi, which is embarrassing, but uh I used to call it Obi Wan, but it confused it was a little confusing. So I now just call it Kenob i. And it turns out Kenobi is a very good word for uh voice activation. So yeah. I can say, hey Kenobi. Shh. I'm not talking to you. And uh it will respond. You know, it's funny, there's a parallelism. I see this more and more as I talk to people who are using AI. We're all kind of working along the same lines. I just like you, I have more than 200 RSS feeds , that is such a burden I have to go through every morning more than a thousand articles, fresh articles every day. And for the longest time I've thought if there's some way I could just capture even a fraction of my editorial judgment , it would save me so much time and so much, more even than that, anxiety about everything I'm missing because I can't keep up with this flood. So what I've done, and I've been doing this with Claude uh and a little bit with GLM is sim so similar to what you're doing. I'm not doing it locally. I think that's really interesting and brave. I'm still using Claude for this. Uh is it it uh makes a tech briefing for me? I'll show you actually, I'll put it up on the screen. It makes a uh a tech briefing for me. Uh I'll go to Obsidian. It posts it in my Obsidi an uh of the stories for each of the three shows that I have to prep . And I've been training it on what I end up picking. So there's a document I prepare for every show. Here's for uh intelligent machines. There's a document I prepare for every show. So at the end of the week, it's prepared 15 candidates a day for that show. And then I it compares in using Carpathy's uh sort of auto research technique to improve the model, what it picked to what I picked. The theory being in time it will get good enough that I can trust it. Well, yesterday I turned it on. Uh it's been training for a while, and I said, okay, you're good enough now. Here's the next stage. I want you to bookmark these candidates. And I'm still not trusting it fully, so the final stage will be me before the show going through the several hundred stories that it's bookmarked saying, okay, these are the ones we're going to talk about on the show. But this is a big leap for me because trust you there there's a certain amount of trust that this is going to do the do the job. And it breaks, right? And so part of the reason why it breaks. Yeah, this is the thing. Part of the reason why I went on to local LLM stack was because GLM shut me off. And so like I woke up one morning. You had to. Yeah, did not have this. I had uh basically an empty email and I thought, well what's what's happened here? And and I think you know that's where the interesting friction lies, is that you can have this, but you can't be fully, fully reliant on this sort of thing at the minute. Yeah. And arguably never, right? Because the way that LLMs work, of course, is that they don't necessarily always spit out the same thing, the reliable output that you might expect because that is the the joy of the black box model . And also, you know, you mentioned some of the amazing local LMs that have come out. Yay, we had Quen 3.6 in the last couple of days. We've got Minima x 2.5, 2.7, etc. etc. Every time that I try and plug in a new model I get slightly different yes editorial tastes coming out of the local LM stuff. So that's why I'm trying to train it on my own choices, hoping it will closer approximate it, you know. It does, but then even so with my because the local LM stuff that I have still passes through that kind of brain, as it were. So you have a memory system of some kind set up. Yeah, and a a memory system and also this this kind of prompt of well look this is what he is interested in based on his writing. Um but even then. Yeah, I mean it's right it's effectively like RAG, right? It is it's it's kind of here's the specialist thing that you need to look at and infer your answers through that. But um and this is why I do it locally, is also because fixing that burns an awful lot of tokens. So even just the kind of like you know, I'm probably using something like fifty to seventy billion tokens a day on holy cow. Either well it's yeah, but it's I I haven't looked. I'm I'm afraid to look. Well I have I have I have eight hundred and fifty RSS feeds. I'm uh this is looking at everything. Oh my god And then also the the kind of so it's looking through all the stories, it's then producing like an output and also I'm doing some coding stuff on top of it. So like you know it's fifty million or so for the local stuff, then it's maybe ten million um through GLM. I recently in my when in my interregnum when the GLM model went down, I I panic bought uh an open code subscription, so I'm using that as well. And also uh I have obviously a chat GPT subscription so I'm using codecs as well uh pretty constantly. But it's yeah, like it's it's it's fun. If nothing else, this is kind of like me using it productively and having a a productive hobby rather than just kind of wasting it away. Well and, I think it's very important, especially in your role as a professor of journalism, it's very important that exactly what you said earlier, you you practice this stuff so that you at least know what works and what doesn't work. And I think it's also really important to have this hard line that it is not going to replace my hum an uh task, uh that I am the writer. I am the journalist here. And that's I think that's the really important question both in terms of the economics of journalism but also in terms of the ethics of journalism. And yep, the harsh reality is that, you know, I tell my students if you look at the kind of trust in the media industry and trust in people like me. When I send out journalists, baby journalists uh who are in training to do what we call Vox Pop, so going out on the street man on the street interviews effectively. Um at least in the UK there is survey data that suggests that of every five interviews that they do, at least four of them will be maybe answering their questions, looking them in the eye while also thinking you are an inveterate liar um because that they're not they're not trusted. We are not trusted as an industry. And so close. Precisely right. And yeah, it's it's yeah, it's getting worse and worse all the time because of a whole bunch of different reasons that we can maybe you know probably we know well we don't have to uh dwell on it. No we don't exactly um but like the the the principle behind that is if there is already this distrust in what we do , to me, the act of journalism is almost like a translator. Like something has happened in the world, it is important enough that you need to tell the remainder of the world. And that is an inherently human thing to do. It's not only inherently human, it's vitally important. Yeah, right. And so if you outsource all of that to AI , where is the accountability? Like, where is the trust? Where is the kind of responsibility? Who is ultimately going to uh be answerable if something goes wrong? That is all I think very important and one that actually I think a lot of people often overlook. 'Cause I see folks who are using AI in the actual production of journals and I think well, you know fine if it works, but also there's a bargain here between the readers, the audience and the journalists. And and if you kind of go back on that bargain a little bit, it makes it very easy for those people to be less trustful of what we do. Yeah, and we don't want that. No. If you're looking for your usage, then it's in API and uh it's the subscription bit. Yeah. What are you using today for your uh local LLM? So I'm using a bunch of Queen. I'm using a bunch of yeah, so some Queen models. So I have I have um because there is an awful lot of throughput um for these models , um I'm using like a nine billion parameter quen 3.5. Relatively small. Yeah, as a as a reporter. So the whole point of that is it's looking at a story and is going, is this interesting to Chris? If so, what is the story here if there is a story? And then it is going, okay, well, fine, we can pass it on or not, and then it passes it on to a um uh a slightly big ger uh slightly more advanced model again it's like it's a it's a combination of a quen 3.5 and a it's post trained on a GLM 5.1 um so it's like distilled basically. Um and that makes a kind of better uh argumentative um presentation to me. And then I kind of go, well, is this actually a story or not? And if it is, then I take it on and I actually write up the pitch myself as here is what I think the take is rather than just what they say. Yeah, I um one of the other things I've been working on is I use obsidian and it was a fortunate choice some years ago because it turns out something that uh uh AIs can handle very well. And uh I've been having um GLM write uh kind of a synthesis of my daily r notes to prov to make a yearly summary with insights. And uh I tried it with GLM, I tried it with uh um sonnet and GLM actually was a better writer. It was actually much, much better. Uh it was also a little less censorious. Uh I noticed Enthropic was a little careful not to uh cross any lines, and GLM was not, oddly enough. Uh so it's really it's I think that's it's I'm sure you tell your students this is so important to kind of uh try uh push these end boundaries to see uh what works and doesn't work. Uh Chris, it's such a pleasure talking to you. We've used up our time, but uh I I'd like to get you back and continue uh this conversation, especially to continue uh f uh learning about what you're doing uh with this local LLM and what you're doing to help you in your uh work because I think you're I think uh you're on the right track for something very with pleasure yeah uh Chris Stoke Walker uh his book uh is still absolutely true how AI wrote the world uh ate the world , and maybe wrote some of it too. You can find it everywhere you get uh books. Uh any w anything else you wanna uh plug, Chris? Is I mean I'm sure people now hearing you wanna say, well, where can I find more Chris Stoke-Walker? Yeah. So I I I used to do uh this tectonic podcast, uh which was in association with an NGO called Article 19. I now do a podcast called Crashed, which is looking at kind of tech through a a UK lens, but also has a broader global context. So you can find that on all good podcast platforms. I see it uh right here on the uh Apple podcast uh platform crashed with Alex Hudson and Chris Stokel Walker. Chris, a real pleasure. Thank you for joining us on Intelligent Machines. Thank you for having me. I'm only sorry that Paris and Jeff weren't here because they would have had lots of additional questions for you. Um we will continue with I am in just a bit. Chris Tokel Walker, great to talk to him. He was fascinating. Uh and I think, you know, he's volunteered, you heard him, uh to come back. So I think he will be uh uh when when when one of you guys is not around, maybe we'll get Chris to fill in. Yeah. I like what he's doing with AI. It's kind of But does he drink coffee or tea? I did not ask. I think you have to have a question. We will have more uh intelligent machines, all the AI news in just a moment, but first a word from our sponsor, this episode, brought to you by Melissa , the trusted data quality expert, since 1985. Spring is the season for tidying up closets, garages, and yes, your customer data. Because in most organizations, data does not stay clean for long. Inputs constantly change, pipelines get fragile, and technical teams end up spending more time fixing data problems than building new systems. And that is the challenge that Melissa set out to solve with something brand new they call Unison . Their new data quality platform. Unison bridges the gap between automation and flexibility, giving data stewards , maybe that's you, the tools you need to manage and improve data quality, freeing your technical team to focus on core systems. For more than 40 years, Melissa's been the data quality partner, helping organizations keep business data clean, complete, and up to date. And there's a lot they can do for you. For example, smart deduplication. This is hard to do if you've ever tried to do it on your own contact list, but Melissa's match up technology is amazing. It finds non-exact matches and makes sure you don't lose any data without having any duplications. They also do global address verification and autocomplete, which will validate and standardize addresses in real time. I mean, it's fast across more than 240 countries. I love Melissa's change of address tracking because it's automatic. It monitors and updates records of customer address changes, property transactions , hazard risks, and more, and it's completely automatic. They also do data enrichment, which means they can append all kinds of information, demographic data, property information, geographic insights to those basic con tact records, turning them into actionable profiles. And if you're in fintech or you need to identity verification for KYC rules, things like that, you'll love their mobile identity verification , which connects customers to their mobile numbers seamlessly and reduces fraud. Melissa integrates wherever you work. They have apps for every tool you use: Salesforce, Dynamics, CRM, Shopify, Stripe, Shop, Microsoft Office, Google Docs. I can go on and on. Melissa Solutions and Services, of course, are GDPR and CCPA compliant. They're FedRAMP certified. ISO 27001. They meet SOC2 and HIPAA high trust standards for information security management. They really they're the gold standard for all of this, frankly. Clean data leads to better marketing ROI, higher customer lifetime value, and AI that works as intended. Get started today with one thousand records cleaned for free at Melissa.com slash twit. That's Melissa dot com slash twit. We thank him so much for supporting intelligent machines. Thank you, Melissa. Well, Google had its uh event yesterday, their Android event preparing, preparing for uh Tuesday's Google I.O. Keynote. They like to clear the decks, I think. They did this last year. Uh so that the keynote can really focus on AI . Jeff is going to be joining us for our keynote coverage along with Micah Sargent. In fact, if you want to come Paris, you can too. It's Tuesday, 10 a.m. Pacific, 1 p.m. Eastern. And I should mention that our coverage of the Google I.O. keynote will be broadcast only in the club, club twit. We don't want to get it taken down on YouTube . So uh if you are not yet a club twit member, this would be a good time to join. So we want to dare we give Google promotion. I know. It really was out. Dare you guys show people their very long press release meeting. It's inter it's always interesting though. Google I.O. in fact uh back in the day, uh before your time, Paris, uh we would actually go to Google IO. I remember Gina Trepany. Yeah. We got a free laptop once. We got a cardboard uh That's when we knew it was almost over. When the all they gave us under our chair was cardboard. Uh that wa that was and Jeff folded it while going over the goal. Cheetah was the one. We were riding back in the car back to Petaluma. Anyway, they had their AI event, and uh I'm sure you uh saw with interest that they announced their basically successor to the Chromebook, right? The Google book. How are you feeling, Jeff? I'm feeling good. I'm feeling good. Um it's not Chrome OS. No. And they won't call it aluminium yet either. That's the code name. Well as we think, but they they won't admit that. But it's it's a it's a combination of Android and Chrome. Yeah. And it has it's built bottom-up with AI. Uh the important part is they've rethought, and this is this is DeepMind did this. And DeepMind has a a thread I put in the rundown. Uh rethink ing the cursor, the pointer. So that's so weird. This is that new mouse thing. So I don't understand you're gonna I I tried to understand what they were talking about. Well, so I actually saw versions of this years ago on the web. I saw startups come in and say, We're gonna re we're there's a new surface and it's the cursor and the cursor has context. It knows where you are, it knows what you want. Why not add context to that? The problem was all those were required you to do add-ons to your browser wasn't gonna work. Now you shake the when you shake the cursor over something, it it it it summons the spirit of Gemini and says, What would you like, Mr. Laporte, in this uh as you're pointing to this coffee pot. Um water pot. Water water. I don't know I d I dare not say anything about coffee because I'll get it wrong. Just call it a percolator get it done with. On your Hamilton Beach percolator. So shake it. And then you say something like, okay, this is the thing I want to operate on, and then you speak to the question. So you can ask a question, or you can say, take this wallpaper that I like and put it in this room, or take this couch out, or um, you know, it's anything that Gemini can do, it now has the context of your screen to know what to do. Can I go on record and say this is a non-starter, this is a lame idea and it's not going anywhere. Oh no, I like this idea. Really? Yes, because it again,'s context. You don't have to go to the effort of typing in something. You can say take this and put it there. Uh put these three things on my shopping list. Boom, boom, boom. I mean, we already have you know, select and drag. It's kind of like that. But this is well, this is more than that. You can add multiple things as you go. I think you could probably say, you know, add this quote to my rundown for the podcast. You know, I don't know. What we'll see what it can do. Um, so that's the main thing it has. The second thing is that AI enables is um new personalized widgets. Though I think when I was talking to Jason Powell earlier today, he said he said it's more like agents . It's it's uh so one example they gave is I'm planning a trip to uh with my family to so-and-so. Create a widget that's gonna track everything about that for me. And so it'll find here's your flights, here's the restaurant you wanted to go to, uh , here's the map of this or whatever, and it becomes a kind of a temporary thing, and they're calling it a widget, but I think that's that's it's something new. It's an agent. Um it'll also have the color bar, which was on the old Google Chromebooks, which is which was lovely. Um and uh it's not going to be a low end machine. It's gonna be a higher end machine. Chrome By the way, that uh is what they were do Google was doing with their own machines all along. Yes but they have uh also the same partners. Samsung weirdly not in the announcement, but I think they're gonna be doing it too. And those will have a variety of price points. I'm sure there'll be a two hundred dollar version. So the good news, bad news for me is that they do say that some existing Chromebooks will be able to take on the new experience. But of course I want the excuse to get a new machine. Which one do you have now? No, you just get a new Chrome book. I did, I did. It's Lenovo. It's a really it's the best Chromebook. It is it is the best Chromebook. I they had to re uh I had to set it in. They replaced my uh motherboard. I don't know. Could you do something fun to destroy What did it do to you? Something's going on with terrorism. I don't know. I just I think it's coming out. If you're if you're upgrading in a flight of fancy, why not go out with the bang? No disrespect to the Lenovo . I just think it would be fun to shoot an electronic with some sort of projectile. I'm so sorry, Lenovo. And he makes fun of me and my wife Claudia. I you know, it's funny 'cause I'm complete I'll have to see and maybe I'll I'll buy into it, but I'm s very skeptical about the way Google's adding AI. I really don't like how it adds AI to Google uh workspace. You're saying you don't want the machine to be intelligent? I I well I have a nice re way of using AI, and I think many people do eit,her on the command line or in a chat bot. I don't know if I want buttons and it's gonna say all of my poking and prodding aside, I agree with you 100%, Leo. I have been enraged this week about the latest rollout of Gemini products to Google Docs. You can't get anything done without a wrapping up. I have accidentally caused an entire window to pop up that uh i asked Gemini to do some other stuff. And there's no way to turn it off on my humble Google Doc. What is this touchtone phone they make me deal with? Where's my phone? No, no, no, no. No, no, no it is a law if you so much as mouse over the colour mouse over the bottom seventh of your screen if you dare to so much as drag your cursor towards the bottom, it'll suddenly be like, hello, I'm Gemini. What would you like me to write? And the answer is nothing. I on the other hand, now that I finally got asked Gemini on my browser, I'm delighted. I'm I I read these extremely long posts and I can just say, summarize it. I don't have to cut and paste a URL into something else after anything else. I just click on that and I say summarize this verbose piece of crap for me so I don't have to read it all. Biggest sin is recontextualizing the red squiggly line under your words. That doesn't mean bad spelling anymore. And that really, really pisses me off. It's not the red one. They've introduced a purple squiggly line that just means we think you could rephrase this. And the rephrasing suggestions are wrong . Oh, they're always terrible. Or they're just vibes based. They're just like we think instead of using three words here, you should have used four. And like I disagree. I'm a writer. You're a machine. And there's no way to turn off the purple vibes-based squigglies without turning off the thing that tells you you misspelled the word your own name. This is how dare you tell me how to pour my coffee. How do you think this is what worries me about the um uh mouse thing is that you're gonna inadvertently trigger this all the time. And then you're gonna have to it's in the early days of the Macintosh, Apple did something I thought really smart, and I think uh credit probably goes to the earliest people on the Mac team who said, don't be modal . So uh modal is m you don't go into a mode. So when you're working, you don't want the machine to switch this is what's happening you, Paris. This is what happened in the old in the old days of the original word processors. Right. It was just Or an editing mode or writing mode. Yes. Yeah, you were either an insert or overwrite. Yes. And and mode modal just confuses people because it changes how the computer's working seemingly randomly. And and you want the computer to be kind of monotonous is the word they used. It's always the same action produces the same result every single time. So this and they I thought they were inspired. It was really Jeff Raskin, who was an early philosopher of comp uting who said, don't be modal. You don't and so pop-ups, uh, you know, you see this all the time on most computer operating systems, a dialogue will pop up. And you can't do anything until you handle the dialogue. And the early Macs , that didn't happen. Those modal dialogues were supposed to be few and far between. And I we got away from that somehow. And I I still believe it confuses everybody. I think it's a di again. I saw startups try to do this uh 15 years ago, a long time ago, 20 years ago. Um, and and the idea is that the cursor is another surface for inform ation. And um and again it has context. So when you put it over something, it can do something for you that's more than just this little pointing thing. Yeah, it can. And if I wanted to do that something else, I'll press a button or double. Yeah, the right I don't mind the right click. Love a right click. I love that I can use my trackpad and right click with just clicking with two fingers. That's fun. That's why sexy. In the early days, Apple didn't have two buttons. It only had one button. Same philosophy, but they've come around and the right click is just as important on Macs now as it is on Windows. But but at least then you're you're intentionally triggering something. I just worry. We'll see. So the other thing they announced was they announced a Rambler? Don't they the so what if that sounds like a folk uh nightmare? The Midnight Rambler. So if you if you uh say something and you say uh like you know how about Tuesday? No, I'm thinking Wednesday, da da da that was the example they gave, it will take the final words of what you say and make it coherent for you. That's appropriate. I think that's good. I ramble all the time. Uh that's what podcasting is. Is that for voice attacks? That's my job is rambling. I think you can use it mainly in Android when you're doing messages and stuff. It's probably voice to text. Yeah. Yeah. I yeah. Yeah. We've had to all of us had to learn a little bit of how to uh do voice to text, right? So you announce enunciate clearly and you try not to ramble because you know that's gonna get transcribed. One was that that uh the the fear that typing is going to go away. Just as cursive went away with typing. And the other was how irritating it is in offices when people are whispering to their computers. That I agree with. I always thought of voice interface isn't going to work well in an office I I have it either, but I can imagine it happening. I don't want to type. I'm going to dictate. Right. I don't want to disturb everybody, so I'm going to do something even more irritating. I actually worked with a woman uh at tech TV who had uh severe carpal tunnel and had to dictate. And she pissed everybody . But we understood this is an accommodation for a handicap. Yeah. You know, uh she had a disability. And so we but it but it yeah, it's annoying when people are talking in an office environment. So uh but that's why everybody should work at home like I do. Up in the Up in my attic. Lisa nudges me a couple of nights ago. Like three in the morning. He says , the attic is talking . And I forgot that I had uh Claudia do a little uh every th every morning at three thirty AM uh it goes through a bunch of stuff processes it and I forgot that I told it to talk to me after it does something and it was giving Well I have now work it all the time for have now said quiet hours between ten PM and seven AM and that it'd be funny, it really picked up on that right away. Qui oh yeah, quiet hours, absolutely. So now it doesn't do it anymore. But it was a little annoying, I must say. Perky British accent like C three PO. Your attic is speaking. Yeah, it's kind of my attic. Yeah. And people want robots in their house. I love having my robot talk to me, and it does all the time now. And I'll hear it. Sometimes it talks to me in the wrong room. And I'll hear distantly, I'll hear a voice. I'll go running. Say what? What did you want? Something? Um no, I I think it is I uh don't get me wrong. I think voice interaction is natural. That's how we want we want to talk to our computers and have them talk back to me. But it has to be at the right place in the right. So when you hook it up with your cameras, then it will know where you are. That's what I worked on. Oh it does that already. No, no, it does that based on the uh Wi-Fi access point . So I have a mapping of which Wi-Fi access point my device is on, where I'm talking to you from, use the speakers near that Wi-Fi access point. And that works pretty well. You have enough Wi Fi access points in your house? There's one per floor. There's one per floor. And there's sonos speakers built into the f ceiling in on each floor. So it does . I can't believe you kept with stuff sonos in the new house. I can't believe you stuck with him. You know what? Once I realized that Claude could talk to Sonos and control it, I actually bought some more. Who can't Claude talk to ? Lisa. Not allowed. Lisa . Or the cat. Google has also announced a ten dollar a month health coach , uh, which is launching uh in uh six days. Great start on your run, Rosa. So this is uh you're using this sort of uh already, Paris, 'cause I know you use an AI for calorie counting, as do I and for exercise. And my AI will when I have too many carbs for lunch, it's it'll say things like you should have a salad tonight. You should you should have a salad tonight. Uh so this is uh this is a new uh this they announced the Fitbit Air, which is a health band without a face. That's competing with the other thing that's hot like or a ring? No, there there's a there's a there's a wristband already that exists without the screen. The kids like Whoop, yeah, thank you. I th is whoop still around? Yeah. Oh yeah. It's that. So it's a whoop Fitbit Air. AI is built right in. It's the same thing. Yeah. They finally have a watch coming Friday for the first time in years. Which one? Sort of. The Google. The Google. Because I got I've got a I'm because of my infirmity, I've got to be exercising. Oh yeah. And so I want to track all that. The problem is with the the current fit already has a bait a a a low line of what you have to make to make your goals. Well I'm crippled now. No, you could turn that low. I can't find how to change it. I can't find how to change it. Oh I I I don't know about the fit bit, but I on my Apple Watch I absolutely say what the rules are. It makes perfect sense. You know the ten thousand steps is made up. Yeah. Did you know that? It's just a Japanese it was it was a fun looking number in Japanese. It was the name of a Japanese ped ometer. Yeah. And uh everybody said, oh, that must be the the requisite number of steps. I knew tons of people who were doing that. Yeah. It knew that story and it said for you at your age you should probably get about eight thousand a day. But you should ask and and explain your infirmity. I would say Jeff probably four or five thousand. There is I'm up to two miles right now. There is evidence that you it definitely improves your longevity to get a certain amount of steps. Past that amount of steps doesn't do much. And for me it was 8,000, but but it could be less for different people. And ten you ten thous going from eight to ten thousand does not improve your longevity at all. Nor does it get you to lose a lot of weight or anything. No, I mean losing weight. As much as I hate to admit it, the only way to lose weather weight is to eat less food. And drink less wine. Or wine or beer. However, you want your calories. Yeah. Calories are coffee is calorie free al most, right? Black coffee is. The new way I'm gonna be drinking it. I'm getting rid of the calories . And add in flavor. But you need calcium, they're fella . And iron. I don't need iron. Men don't need iron. Oh, I do. Yes, they do. Yes. But we get enough iron. We don't No. No, often uh a lot of Americans are iron deficient is what I've learned this week. Yes, I am. Really? I was looking through I was like, how would I even get I was like how so many things about my life would make sense if this test result comes back and says I am continue to be iron deficient. I think you're polyem ic. That's why you're tired. There is my my son is too and my wife just uh uh found something where there's also a an inability to metabolize and there's a there's there's a pill to take for that. I'll find out what it is so you can add it into your research. Google says criminal hackers used AI to find a major software flaw. This seems like an AI generated headline. I'm just gonna put the I mean It's the New York freaking times. I know I know it's not given what given where uh the provenance of it, but that that seems that is a the most generic headline in the world. Yeah, we're gonna see this more and more, aren't we? And it and you may be right. Even if it's not generated by AI, it's AI inspired . Google says criminal hackers used AI to find a major software flaw. Um this is what everybody was afraid of with mythos, is that uh if AIs can find bugs for fixing, it also find bugs for hacking. Often that's the same bug. Um this was a zero day. We have high confidence, according to the report. The actor likely leveraged an AI model to support the discovery and weaponization of this vulnerability. In fact, this is why we talked about this last week. The Trump administration all of a sudden is saying, Oh, maybe we better uh be nice to anthropic. Well, and maybe we better start approving models. Oh but that I think that's that was we discussed last week. That's ridiculous. Meanwhile how they may do it. There may be public sentiment to do that. Well the public sentiment against AI is just getting a lot of people . moment at a college commencement last week. I have the video. We should. Yeah, I I I cued it up. Um where is it here? What line number? Oh, you gotta ask me . Um So this was uh a a um a college . Oh there it is line 137 A little trouble reading the room shot. Yeah this was at University of Central Florida to give you a uh What does that what does that tell us? The current of the likely demographics of the students. Which would be you're from Florida, what would that be? Uh I would say no. Uh I mean all students are young, but Florida is a state that is historically swung right. Okay, conservative. Um conservative you wanna you wanna grow the time code one twenty one. I think frankly, uh that this would be the reaction on almost any college campus in America. I know, but I'm just saying I think it's notable that this is what you've got. Not just UC go back to one thing. You're the right America. Breakthroughs absolutely will happen . Now that said , we are living in a time of profound change. That's an understatement, right? So far? They're with her, yeah. Change is exciting. Yeah. Very exciting. Yeah. She's a dorky speaker. Face it. Change can be daunting. Yes. The rise of artificial intelligence is the next industrial revolution. Oh they don't like that. It gets away. She turns around. What happened? What happened? But don't you all love AI? May I finish? No, it's too com it's too painful to watch. It just gets she Well, but you know, anybody would be thrown thinking that she was going to go up there and give a very inspiring address about how we're going to AI is going to change our lives, but it but we're gonna embrace it and it's gonna and the students are like, no , wrong. And she doesn't I mean she doesn't have an alternate address ready to go. No. Yeah. Oh yeah, I hate AI. Don't you hate AI? AI sucked. The industrial revolution sucked, man. It sucked. Well, but it is like I she wasn't wrong.' I mean that doesnt mean it's a good thing. Many of them won't be able to get work . It's as if you're speaking to a uh a class of hand re hand weavers in the year 2016 uh 1216 and saying the here come the automatic weaving machines isn't it exciting and they're gonna go no it's not exciting . Uh I've spent the last four years learning to hand weef. And this was specifically at UCF's College of Arts and Humanities commencement and the commencement for the School of Communication and Media. She misread the room. I don't who was she though? Who is she? And she's a co she's a she's no, I think she's a CEO of some company. Well there you go. Oh, she wasn't she was an invited speaker. She was a guest, yeah, yeah. This is how you treat me? Whoops. Poor woman. So uh uh yesterday I went to uh uh uh YU has a forty-seven year old programs called uh ITP, interactive telecommunications program, and the students do these amazing little projects and that's their thing. So I went uh and I I was curious to see what the students were thinking in this program of AI. And they're all pretty open to it. But the but the director of the program said, Well, but over in the uh in the arts program, uh they don't like it. Yeah . Well, I mean, yeah, people students at ITP have been doing quirky little AI projects since the beginning of time. Yes, exactly. Well, here I am on a show all about AI and I get yelled at all the time. So I understand how she feels. Her name is Gloria Alfield, Vice President of Strategic Alliances at Orlando based Tavistock Development Company. Well, okay. Next time uh you know, trying to get a celebrity to talk, because you know, they do more. Oh as well as uh the current f battle over NYU's scheduled commencement speaker, Jonathan Haidt, which uh the students are quite mad about it. And I can if you by the way, Jonathan Hait doesn't like it when you say hate. Even if you hate it. He hates it. I uh thought his book The Righteous Mind was very interesting and I interviewed him about uh that but he's the one of course who wrote the book uh that is uh uh a kind of a live wire right now about how social media is ruining our uh the anxious generation oh he's just he just drives me he's he he and galloway drive me completely bet one we we know how to get to to jeff all right. when When we we uh we're gonna pause and then when we come back, a musical rendition of the text messages between Sam Altman and Mira Marati on the night that Sam Altman got fired at OpenAI. I tried to play this on Sunday on Twit, but I now have the technology because I'm back home. You have the technology to play it without deafening the audience? Yes, I played it and you couldn't hear it, but apparently the people in the club were deafened by it. And I apologize. Apologize uh for that. But we will this is this trial has been it's delivered in every respect. Uh I even said at the beginning these trials are always bad for both parties because of discovery. And uh foolishly OpenAI put Greg Brockman's personal journal into the evidence, at which point of course uh was it just discovery though? Wasn't it? No, they put it into evidence. dig into it. And they did. And I think they did a lot more damage to open AI than uh than they did good using it. Um that's the r but this is what happens in these trials. It happened with Apple and Epic and Google and Epic, um that you know, people put stuff in writing that they shouldn't put in writing, and this email gets discovered and this information comes out, and there is some awkward ass stuff. And when I say the word ass, I mean it. We'll talk about that in just a little bit. This do you know about pen test ing ? I think this is one of the most fascinating areas of security. I know a lot of pen testers, always impressed by them. This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by Expo, one of the best, XBOW, one of the best pen testing companies out there. AI has, as we know, changed the pace of everything from how software develops to how it gets attacked . We were just talking about that. Engineering teams are moving faster than ever, creating more and more applications, but security really hasn't kept up . In this day and age, pen testing remains one of the most trusted ways to understand real exploitable risk. But in an AI-driven world where everything's moving at hyperspeed, it can become a bottleneck. Security teams are forced to choose between slowing down development to stay secure or moving fast and accepting that there are going to be gaps in their coverage. Well, they don't have to be. Expo eliminates that trade-off. XBOW. Expo is an autonomous, offensive security platform that runs continuous AI-driven pen testing, mirroring real world attacks. This is so cool. Expo doesn't just scan for vulnerabilities, it discovers , exploits, and validates them. So you're only dealing with issues that actually matter. That means dramatically fewer false positives and a clearer view into real attack paths. With expo, tests run in hours, not weeks , you get complete visibility into how an attacker would move through your systems, and the ability to uncover issues that traditional tools miss, including zero days, novel attack paths. It's really amazing. Expo's results speak for themselves. Uh I'll give you an example. Application security lead of CESNAM.cz says quote, even right now, after one year, I don't know any other company that is at least class The result is predictable cost, consistent quality, and stronger security without slowing anything down. Your engineers can move at full speed. Expo helps security teams keep pace with innovation and cover more apps more often with the resources they already have. It was actually founded by a team behind uh Microsoft Copil ot. And it's already been trusted by companies ranging from fast-growing startups to Fortune 500 enterprises. Expo is quickly becoming a mission critical layer in modern security stacks. Go to ex po.com to start a pen test today. That's expo.com. It's xbo w dot com. Expo . This is the way pen testing should be done. Oh man, the gift that just keeps on giving. Sam Altman at the trial faced awkward grilling from Elon Musk's attorneys over the trial. Can you be trusted? They asked him, can you be trusted? He said, Well, I I think so . I believe I'm an honest and trustworthy business person, despite what Ronan Farrow and the New Yorker says. A wild response given that he had to have prepped the the answer to that exact question with his team a million times. So either he bungled it or that's the answer they all lent. Well what would you have him say? What what would be the right answer, you think? I would just say yes. Yes. I am absolutely trustworthy. Uh that's yeah, full a full sentence. Yeah. No hesitation. I b I believe. No uh mock. And then the uh Musk's attorney said, You don't know whether you're completely trustworthy? And then Altman said, Well, I'll just amend my answer to yes. A little late. Remember, this is a jury trial. The jurors are looking, watching him, you know , closely . Uh and I don't, you know, I doubt that they were able to get the New Yorker article into evidence. I mean they you know, that's not something you can do. That's a lot of hearsay. Yeah. Yeah. But uh certainly that's in the air, right? So I I mentioned the ass part. This is from a uh a tweet by Mike Isaac. Uh it actually he got the he said it was Microsoft. It's actually open AI's at attor neys produced now the jury is not in the room at the time, and I don't know if the judge allowed this after the jury to see this, but they produced a jackass trophy that is just a donkeys beh ind with a label never stop being a jackass for safety. And apparently this is something Elon Musk gave an open AI employee after Musk called him a jackass and then he gave him a jackass trophy . Wasn't wasn't Musk the other half of the jackass or something? Apparently, according to the OpenAI Council, a small group of OpenAI employees purchased the statue from the open AI guy later . The jury didn't see it. The Musk side is obviously uh fighting it. The judge will decide later if this golden donkey butt cast in gold uh will be entered into evidence. I'm not sure what it would prove, except I think that it's they're trying to make the case that Elon was kind of a jerk , right? Kind of jerky uh kind of . It was awarded to chief futurist Joshua Akaim. Uh yeah, I mean not not just like a lowly employee . You're a group of open AI employees created the jackass statue to give to Akeim as an in-joke. He was making a point about an in-joke after Musk called the case. Elon didn't make the trophy. Elon called him a jackass and then the open AI employees here's a trophy. Oh, I get it. Akaim was making a point about how Musk was being reckless with AI safety at the time, says Mike Eisenhower. Well that's been the whole reason, right, for Musk getting behind open AI. Larry Page, very famously, he and Elon Musk got in an argument at uh I don't know, Aspen or somewhere. Uh no, it was uh it was I think it was um in Montere y. Uh but at some conference, maybe a TED conference. And uh Larry Page said to Elon, because Elon said, you know, AI could kill us all. And and Larry said, you're being speci ist. You're being a uh like a racist, only a species racist. The AI is a new species. You should support it. And Elon was so upset and incensed by that that he said, I gotta do something. But I can't let Google g get get the lead in this. So uh the text messages, I don't know if you got a chance to read them between Mira Marathi and uh Sam Altman. When Sam is being fired, and say this is in the middle of the night, Mira is his inside person at the board meeting. And they're going to be able to during the insane weekend that had all of tech media glued to their phones and computers. Thanksgiving weekend. So this is great. Somebody, uh Daniel Green , uh said he took took the text and turned them into a musical. Kind of like Hamilton, only it's called Altman. And I think it's pretty good. Listen. How does a startup founder late stage get fired by a board on a Sunday Let's Sam Mira. Can you please officially invite me to the office for a meeting? Adam is trying to get the board to agree to a configur ation . He is now saying they need till end of day, Satya, and I said that doesn't matter. Satya the Dell as CEO of Microsoft. Preparing for plan B. Plan B, plan B, plan B. Yes, I will. Do you have an update you can share? Have an update. Let me know when you can talk. On with them yet? Are you on with them? Not yet, just in a quiet room. Because I didn't want all the outside theaters. This is so much better than reading the text. Directionally very bad. Directionally very bad. This is very bad. Sam, this is very bad. When I come in, what do you wanna make it better? I'm still willing to just walk away if that helps. If they are ramped up for crazy lawsuits aga inst me, then I'm not sure what Not sure what not sure what They don't want you to They're convinced about their decision For me to be fired or some new thing Yes For you to be gone. For you to be g one. Okay , then can I come in and talk about a path forward with them? More time for what? More time for what? They've walked me through all the reasons and the issues with you and why you can't be CEO. Can't be CEO . Can you ask why all weekend they wanted me back? Can you say you will call back in ten minutes? Do they know who? Can I tell Satya? Is this final? They want a new CEO in place tonight. Not me, not me. Still don't want me. Trying to add Satya noun. New guy, new guy, new guy is a rando twitch guy. Rando Twitch guy. Who and by the way ended up being uh CEO and Miramirati uh lost that position briefly. Uh it goes on, but it's very I think it's very good. And it by the way brought Aunt Pruitt out of the the uh weeds to complain that we were playing a musical on the show. You know he hates musicals. Was this produced by with AI or I'm sure it was a Suno or something like that. But it was really well done though. I feel like there will be an opera on this uh at some point. It's just it's just begging. Oh, yeah uh to be made um I the thing I don't know if the jury what the jury is gonna do with all this though. I mean both sides look terrible right depends on the judges' instructions more than anything else. Yeah. Well it depends on what they're being asked to to well Elon wants something like thirty I guess some huge number. I thirty. Right. Uh well I think the question is uh was did open AI basically rip off Elon Musk by pretending that they were forming a nonprofit and then after they threw Elon out, although I think there's some question about whether he left on his own accord, then they go for profit, and Elon, who only put in a few, you know, I don't know when he put in a billion dollars, I think, uh, says, you owe me all the profits that you just stole from me by uh uh and and he also wants open ai to go away. He wants Altman fired. And wants Altman fired. But as the open AI attorneys are quick to point out, Elon is now running a for-profit AI company called XIA AI that is competing directly with OpenAI, and by the way, ain't doing all that well . In fact, we taught-I think we talked about this last week. Maybe we talked about it on Sunday. Well Sunday, I think. I think we 're starting this week. Anthropic has now made a deal to buy compute. We did. We did talk about it. Colossus. And people are saying this is actually a big uh win for XAI because they're not looking so strong. That's the other story I thought you were going to was was how they're recognizing that ROC is nowhere. Grock is not taken off. No . Yes. Um, and I'm not surprised. I think the honestly the Mecca Hitler thing did it a lot of reputational teams. Well, that among many things. Right. Rightly so. Uh speaking of Elon , he did have a little bit of a victory to celebrate. Nitsa says that the Model Y is the first car to meet its new US. Well, according to his own, to Musk's own testing. Driver assistant safety benchmark. Yeah, NHTSA will look at the testing that Elon did and v and validate it before they actually The more proper lead would have been that this is the first car to submit um an application. So four pass failed tests were added to NITSA's, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's safety ratings program specifically for autom ation. Uh one was assessing the car's automatic emergency braking for pedestrians. That's a nice feature. I've had cars that do that. If there's a pedestrian in the road, it jams on the brakes, so it makes it very hard to hit somebody without your doing it . Try as you might. Try as you might. Now remember, Tesla had problems in the past running over um images of children . So this would be good if it had had this capability. Other cars, again, can do this. Blind spot warning. Most cars will do that now. Blind spot intervention. That's the next step up where it won't let you turn into a lane where there's another car, and lane assist which keeps a vehicle in the lane. None of which is fully automatic driving. Right. No, we're not talking about the side. And so he's out there, he's out there promisinging self-driv and selling self-driving. This is just and driving and we've only begun to regulate a few steps uh toward that, which I think is just is is scandalous. Well and our car expert uh Sam uh bull Sam ada has is on record saying there will never be a level five autonomous vehicle. It's just too hard to do. But what about all the people who want to fall asleep on their drive to work? What about what are they gonna do? Do their makeup . Uh scroll through tickets. Shave shave their beards. Uh Paris, you don't even have a car. What about the people who want to build a small model car while they're driving their car? Sometimes. What about them? In your future you may have a vehicle and someday uh way in way distant future you will be as old as Jeff and I are. You'll be living in the suburbs. You just count on it. The world will have died by ruin. But we are facing the prospect in the next ten, fifteen years of getting our keys taken away by our kids . Right? point, you it's a very hard conversation because in America a car means independence, it means mobility. Uh you you somebody will come up to me and say, you know, uh Leo, you're you almost hit that garbage can. Uh you really shouldn't be driving anymore, especially at night or whatever, and take the keys away. I'm hoping that when that happens there will be autonomous vehicles of some kind, at least they'll be lift an Uber You can just get Claudia to drive, you or Claudia. She's an excellent driver. Hey honey, let's go to dinner. You're a great conversationalist. You always say nice things to me . Uh no, but I really I am hoping that there will be a I would I kind of keep thinking that the the next car I buy will be the last car I buy that won't be fully autonomous. And then I'll have that for I don't know ten years. And then the next car after that will just drive me around. You never kept a car for 10 years. No, I know . How long have you had the current one? I do three year laces. So they but with EVs that's actually smart because they depreciate so fast that uh it's better to let the lease company take the take the burden, take the pain. I want my I want my Chinese Easy V. That's what I want. Well,' uhs, the president in China now. He could maybe make a deal with she maybe with all the CEOs, right? Yeah. Uh mostly there. Yes, with Tim Cook's there. But my favorite this is my favorite story of the week. Absolute favorite story. Yeah, because well it's it's it's uh Trump's China we didn't walk CEOs . Oh can we stop off and pick up Jensen? Oh geez one of those I I asked to be invited, but they didn't invite me. Yeah. Why? So they picked him up in Alaska. Oh, but they did get him? Oh, they got him in Alaska, yes. Wait a minute. He ran to Alaska and is waving as they fly over saying, please pick me up, and they picked him up. They picked him up in Alaska. In Air Force One? Yes. Yes. I didn't I didn't have the latest. Uh from the New York Times, NVIDIA CEO Hitch's ride with Trump to China after a last minute invite. Well that's ironic because he was did a speak at a college graduation and told the gradu ates to run don't walk toward AI, but I think maybe he meant run, don't walk toward Air Force One. Um so he how what was he doing in Alaska? Did he actually go to Alaska. I think I think he had the fly. For nearly a year he'd been lobbying officials in Washington and Beijing to allow NVIDIA to sell its artificial intelligence chips to China. And then Trump uh posted on Truth Social. Jensen is currently on Air Force One. So what okay. His stock went down. Nvidia, because because it came out that he wasn't invited, NVIDIA's stock went down. And when he got Understand he's been working hard, including in that Dwarkesh interview, to convince people that it's it's the right thing to do to let China buy all of his advanced chips. Right now, China can only buy the H two hundred, which is a somewhat less powerful chip uh for their AI because everyb ever everybody in the U.S. government's worried about China's AI becoming better than ours. Jensen says no, no, no, that's a mistake. You want them to be in the same ecosystem as everybody, so that you d what you don't want them to do is is to leapfrog us with something proprietary, which is incidentally what she has been saying. They haven't been buying the H-200 chips because she says, no, we want to develop our own Chinese native AI capacity. And so we don't want to be dependent on American AI chips. So that is a leg, I guess that verifies or validates uh Jensen's opinion. So why wasn't Jensen invited? Was he not nice enough to the president? Do we know? Did he not give sucking up? I think he's done as well as anyone. Yeah. He didn't give him a gold bar. Maybe he should have given the game. Steve Cook. Steve Cook got the price of admission with a gold bar. Tim Cook. That was a good move. Um Jenens's not making chips in the US. That's another way you can get in the good graces . But then he changed his mind. Why did he change his mind? Because Trump always chicken so und . Uh should be very clear by now. And I'm not being political here. This is just clearly what's going on. That uh the president is very influenced by uh the stock market, by wealthy people , uh perhaps because they're donors, perhaps just because they're the engine of innovation in America. But his goombas. Uh you know, if the oligarchs complain, the president listens. Actually, uh Corey Doctor wrote wrote a great piece on this saying what a conflict it is because President Trump got elected as a populist, a man of the people who would help the little man . But But because he's so dependent on the oligarchs in this country, the rich and the especially the tech elite in this country, he he has he has a problem. Populists always are off to power, not helping the people. Yeah. Um and so as a result, you know um I just imagine that phone call. The plane has taken off from Andrew's.. That wild Susie Wiles says, um Jensen, uh do you think you could uh get yourself to Alaska in two hours? Meet us in Alaska. Yeah. D he must have had a uh uh F-3 5 Phantom jet to get beat the Air Force One. Well Air Force One could have landed at SFO and picked him up there. Oh, he flew from SFO to Alaska. Okay. I presume so, yeah. It's a very weird story. It's a very weird story. It's hilarious. I think it's just absolutely hilarious. Okay. Anyway, he's in China, although uh all of them are in China. Tim Cook, 16 uh CEOs, including now Jensen Wong of NVIDIA. Um but it's not clear that there will be a meeting of minds here because there's definitely a conflict. Um lots of Yeah. Trump's China trip collides with AI security feels fears from Reuters uh this headline uh tech rivalry, distrust, sap summit hopes for Trump she AI push. Now that is a human ridden that is true . Anything that says SAP summit hopes, no AI is gonna say that. Um, the president will put artificial intelligence at the forefront of talks this week with she . A first that highlights the technology's strategic heft, but substantive commitments are unlikely, said two U.S. officials with knowledge of preparations . China was included from Benthos. They they didn't have to. That's yeah, they asked for mythos and uh EU has asked for mythos and was told no. China has asked for mythos and was told no. That's our security tool. Bogarting mythos. Um it's FOMO, it's mythos FOMO the rest of the world. Uh finance minister uh Lau Min and Treasury Secretary Scott Besent don't know anything about AI . And the Trump administration has only recently shifted towards pursuing safety vetting for advanced AI models. So um doesn't look like Basent and uh Liao Min will have much to say. You know anything about AI? Not really. You? No? Well and then there's Iran hanging over it all, so Yeah. Getting West here's another quote from the Reuters story. Getting Western senior Western figures to engage directly with China on AI has become increasingly diffic ult. A military hotline already exists, but US officials have complained China has often not picked up. How dare they? They don't answer. I call and they don't answer . I call, I text, they're ghosting us . Both sides could set up a no-blame hotline to flag suspected AI driven incidents, said the head of an international AI governance consult ancy uh based in Beijing . Could, but if you don't answer, it doesn't really much matter. All right, well we'll see. We'll watch with interest. I mean at least they're talking, right? That's a good thing . Yeah. Yeah. OpenAI has its anth ropic uh mythos answer they call uh daybreak and Microsoft has announced a uh security AI it calls m-dash uh appropriately I think uh unknown whether they're as good as mythos but remember, Mythos i is a general AI. It wasn't trained to be good at security, it just happened to be, so it's completely possible and in fact likely that any frontier AI would be as good or close to as good as Mythos. I think it'd be foolish to assume there aren't any out there that are . There aren't any. Well there aren't any out there that are as powerful as mythos. Right. Well in fact if I had a mythos in the pocket, I wouldn't tell anybody I did. That's why this Google story we referred to earlier. Well the interesting about the Google story it was it was they used it I don't know how they knew that AI did this since the first time and all that. They used it to detect the scarier part is to create an exploitation, right? To use AI to do that. Yeah, but if you find the vulnerability, you're very close to the exploit. That's that's Let's take a little break and uh continue on with intelligent machines. Parasmart, no. Are you are you done? Are you relaxed a little bit now? Or are you still working very hard in this breaking news? Back in the crevasse as of today. Thank God you've got some good coffee. That's all I can say. That's true. Are we doing the Ethiopian Yurgachife? I mean, honestly, I've just gotten two new coffees that I don't really like that much from Clash. But you know, we'll see. Maybe I think it's just that they're fresh. They need some time to rest. So I gotta you gotta fill me in on this whole resting thing. She has purchased these test tubes, these plastic they are test tubes, right? They're laboratory equipment. They're like little laboratory equipment that typically is used to spin um samples. Yeah, centrifuge test tube. I've s heard about these on Reddit that they um are popular because they contain basically twenty exactly twenty grams of coffee uh in them. And that's the c that's the proportion. How much I put in uh I was thinking 15 grams. So you think twenty was if you do fifteen, then you can just measure out fifteen on it. Fifteen and two hundred and fifty grams of water. So you use twenty and two fifty grams. Two hundred and eighty or two hundredy and sevent five ish. I forget what it is. It's Kessel fifty milliliter polypropylene screw top self standing base centrifuge tube with gradiated marks and writing area, pack of ten. So I put my the beans out. Now how how long do you rest them for? For so well it depends on the beans . How much rest do they need? It depends on how much rest the bean needs, depends on how it was processed, it depends on the rest ing conditions. I track my beef in my arm in my log and then once it hits the peak resting window, then I start, you know, di rule of thumb though. Two weeks later you can use them. Yeah. But you don't know you you you don't know if you're gonna be able to use them all within two weeks. So you freeze them after two weeks and that will that will freeze them in time. Basically, it it really slows down the degradation. I'm just doing this to um we're doing this to harm Jeff. It slows down the degradation process, but part of uh when I brought this up in our chat, Benito was like, isn't freezing coffee beans bad for it? Yes, but if you freeze them in one bag and then keep opening and closing that bag from the freezer because it introduces moisture. So you put the beans in discrete centrifuge tubes so that you only open one at once and the rest stays sealed and frozen . Folgers. I miss Folg ers. You know what I did buy uh there is a uh very famous coffee company in Japan, the ones that invented coffee in a can that they sell in the vending machines in Japan. They also make uh a uh instant coffee, which I ordered from Japan just to see how good it was. It's not bad. How was it? It's the best instant coffee. That's the best instant coffee. Yeah, it is. It's quite good. It's surprising. I mean, it's instant, but it's not it's not like you ban instant. It's good. It tastes like a real brewed cup of coffee. Does it have that instant telltale foam? No. I was to say they are making some really interesting instant coffees now in the special coffee scene. I'm not sure I sent you this one in the Short Hills Mall, which is the the hot mall. They're they've they've got this company that I sent you off. Uh yes, when I need my uh when the when the weather is bad. I did my weather. Yeah, UC C one seventeen. MSF Web dude in Twitch knows yes it was the 117 yeah yeah you see commenteer have you seen this oh yeah commenteer but these are like frozen right yeah they're ice cube coffees well no, th that's how they do it but, then you pour them. It's it's a whole thing you know you have to go up and you have to take the course and do the whole thing to get it, and then you have to join the club . But yeah, flash frozen and hyper pr fresh. Here it is, Ucc 117, the blend number 117. The blend . Last purchased. Yeah, you can see I bought it November 6th. But because it's fr it's uh instant, you can just, you know, keep it for years. I got it in case of emergency. It's one of those break glass in case of emergency coffees. I gotta have a cup. Sometimes I do it right before the show. And I guess if it's a real emergency, you could just shoot a cup of it back. You don't even mix it with water. No, you mix it in your snort it. Snort it. Exactly. Straight into the show today brought to you by Threat Locker . I love Threat Locker. Oh, they're getting ready for Zero Trust World. Well, this is this is where this shirt came from. I was at uh the Kennedy Space Center in Orlando, uh right before Zero Trust World in Orlando. There's another one coming up. ThreatLocker is the zero trust platform delivering the industry's most comprehensive suite of zero trust solutions. In fact, now they don't just protect endpoints , they also will protect your company network and the cloud. They announced this at Zero Trust World. This is huge. By extending Zero Trust Enforcement to cloud services and company networks, ThreatLocker ensures that devices are validated through a secure broker before they connect to your cloud platforms like Salesforce or Microsoft 365 or Asana, Google Workspace, GitHub, you get the idea. What this means is even if your users have been successfully fished, even if attackers are on their laptops , they cannot access the resources that user has access to. They'd have to actually, get physical possession of the user's trusted device and authenticate with fingerprint or Microsoft Hello or something. I mean, this is this is absolutely great security. ThreatLocker works across all industries. It provides 24-7 US-based support. Windows, Mac, Linux, absolutely. With ThreatLocker, you get unprecedented protection quickly, easily, and cost effectively. Just ask uh Rob Thackeray. He's the end user technical architect at Heath row Airport in in London. He says, quote, ThreatLocker was the most intuitive solution we tested, and the responsiveness of the organization, the willingness to engage with us, to set up a demo to work with us on weekly audit reviews was very good. It is great to have an ongoing relationship with a company that's so responsive to our requests. Threat locker is trusted by the biggest, the best, companies that just can't afford to go down at all . Like Jeff Blue, the Indianapolis Colts, the Port of Vancouver. Threatlocker consistently gets the highest honors and industry recognition. They're a G2 high performer and best support for enterprise summer 2025. Peer Spot gave ThreatLocker their number one pick for application control . GetApp says ThreatLocker got their best functionality and features award in 2025. And yes, ThreatLocker's getting ready for Zero Trust World 2027. I'm excited. I am excited. But I will fly to Alaska, ThreatLocker, just to get on the plane, so I can go to Orlando. For ZTW 27, they're gonna host some of the best and brightest cybersecurity experts. It's their seventh year now. Zero Trust World provides crucial education and training to support IT professionals. And I went to uh the sessions. I had such a great time. They have full session access with your past, but you also get hands-on hacking labs. It was so much fun. I hacked a w did website hacking, learned how to hack websites. There's an after party that is so much fun. That's when I wear my spacesuit costume. You don't want to miss this exciting interactive three-day event happening february seventeenth through nineteent h in Orlando, Florida. Save the date I have february seventeenth through nineteenth in Orlando next year. Visit ThreatLocker.com slash twit in the meantime to get a free thirty day trial and learn more about how ThreatLocker can help mitigate unknown threats and ensure compliance. That's threatlocker .com slash twit. Threatlocker.com slash twit. We thank him so much for their support. Of intelligent machines . Uh before this leaves, there's a live feed right now of robots sorting packages. Eight hour shift. Give me the link. Let's watch. The link is line it's out at the bottom. I I added it as late breaking the video here. Just in. Oh hell, where did I put it? There we go. 168. Oh, you really at the bitty bitty bitty bitty bottom there. So this is uh Brett Adcock . Watch a team of humanoid robot. This is going on right now. They've done seven you'd love. This is a lot faster than the ones I've seen in the past. The robot is a mirror. Is it split up? No, this is live. Oh, whoa. See the person walking? That's a normal speed. So what it's doing is it's finding the uh address label and making sure it's face down for scanning. Yeah. It's actually much faster than the ones I've seen previously. Kind of mesmerizing in a way. It really is. So this is one human who won't be able to pay rent or eat. Yep. Probably living on the streets. Moving in a way that is more clumsy is not the right word, but like less precise than the average robot demo. Because it doesn't need to be, that's the beauty. It is getting the job done, which I think is good, yeah. Yeah. Uh and I honestly, yes, this is somebody's job, but it's what a terrible job to do this for eight hours. Yeah, yeah, I would say this is as fast as a human. Well it also isn't really doing the barcode thing because it there's a bunch of them and it's missing. No, is it? Oh no, it's cutting them. So it's turning all the barcodes down? Yeah, because that's the reader. They're all going down. Wait, so why don't they just make this robot scan the barcodes? Okay, Benito It ha it has a camera to find it. So I yeah, can it just scan it right there once it sees it? Come on, guys. Well, because it probably is going down the conveyor to go somewhere else. It's going through eighty seven degree. The conveyor is the key, really, not the scanning, and the scanning is incidental to getting it on the conveyor, but they have to get it on the conveyor in the right position. So it can scan and then sort. I thought you enjoyed this live show, yes. This is good. This is good. And it never ties packages. Never has to pee in a bottle. It just it just goes and goes and goes. It's actually pretty much. How much does it cost, I wonder? Well, these all cost exactly the same. Sometimes packages fall off the belt. I've seen that uh in the past, but this guy, oh, come on, pick it up. Pick it up. You can do it. Look at it. I love that gesture. That's the new robot gesture. The twist with nothing. But there's some there's some logic going on here, knowing that that box didn't have a barcode on the side, it had it on the bottom. Yeah. It's pretty good. I mean people in the comments are bringing up is there just a guy in a VR headset somewhere doing this? They look ominous. Yes. You better do the job or work coming next. Now there's a couple of things to point out uh on this. For one thing, stretch. This robot could f stop and it wouldn't you could see the packages are not coming at it. They're just coming down a chute. So this is a particularly well suited task for the robot. If the robot were to fail suddenly. Oh, oh, oh, we blew that one. Oh someone's not getting their package. Yeah, sorry the robot failed. Have you ever seen um Paris the Lucille Ball and the Chocolate Factory? Oh, that's a classic. No. Oh yeah. But what is the subscrip the it can't just be a twenty thousand dollars? I think though that this is uh you know this will be the day. You'll look back, you'll talk to your kids. Um, you know, oh yeah, I remember watching that show on May thirteenth, twenty twenty-six when daddy saw his job go bye-bye. Ed Zitron response. Yeah, that's why the ones are standing back there, and they 're last time they did this, they did it for an hour, but this time it's eight hours. Ed Zitran comes in fifty five minutes ago. Where I wish I could do Ed Zitron, I can't do a not ation. Uh where exactly is it noticing the barcodes? I've seen multiple times when it looks at a totally empty side of a package and moves it. Well, I explain there's logic to it, Ed. There are on a box of that size and shape six sides. If you look at five and you haven't seen the barcode, it must be on the six. So the um creator of it says that the robot is around parody of human speed. Parody? Parody No, not party. Oh P A R I T Y not P A R O D Y. Yeah. Parity. I thought around parody would be very fun ny of humans. I can I think we can get Daranoki to generate a round parody of humans. So in other words it is roughly as uh efficient as a human. So twenty hours times thirty seven hours twenty dollars an hour times thirty seven hours equals times fifty day weeks is seventy three thousand dollars. So you can afford three of these things. Yeah. Wait a second This company also has jobs posted w for human robot operators. Oh well they have to train 'em. Yeah . So uh th that's one of the ways they're training these things now is in fact you can get a house robot that you have to teach it how to make the bed. But after you've taught it a few times then I wouldn't have gone to the hospital. You wouldn't be in the hospital. The robot would have saved me. So you these people have to be on call or be basically responsible for running the humanoid robot entirely for the customer use case it says. Like you have to run the robot. It says your responsibilities are to run the robot constantly throughout the day and evening, identifying bugs and problems, ensuring that it's operating successfully the cut for the customer use case. If there's a human doing it, that does not work. No. You've you've saved nothing. I was just saying yeah, if you just have a a human who, let's say best case scenario, has to be constantly managing this robot to make sure that it is doing it right. What is what are you saving? Well, clearly that that isn't good. That's not viable. And that's where up it's been. Remember that laundry folding robot that for years they I mean this is how a lot of the just walk out, check out technology sort of stuff goes. Yeah, that's gone. Well that was more humans didn't accept didn't like the idea of a thousand cameras watching them at the end. Isn't Whole Foods rolling that out now? A new version of that? No, I think they killed it. In fact, I was at Whole Foods and they wanted me to sign up for the palm print. I mean, well, they had the palm print machine there and a sign saying sign up for Amazon Go so you could just go with your palm print. The sign al give us a hand. Give us a hand. And and I started to do it. And the clerks and the checkout person said, Yeah, don't do it. They're taking that out tomorrow. Really? She's like they're they're canceling that program. So I would have been shocked if it ever made it to New York City because every whole thing is . Well that's how you did it. That's how you paid for it. You you would go in. Did the Amazon go at a time where you just scanned it in? Yeah. No, you have a option. So the the palm came later. Yeah. Yes. Down came the palm. Down came the palm. Anthropics Claude manage agents Can Dream Now. There is a slash dream skill. And uh I keep asking my uh guy, I said, can hey Claudia, can you dream? And she says, Not yet, but I'll let you know. And uh the idea is you do slash dream and then it does some I don't know background stuff whenever you're not using her. She just does some she cleans up things dreaming. It's a neast it's a neat idea. They also have some uh better ideas about we talked about this anthropic blackmailing scenario with Claude uh 4-0 plus 4-0 where uh they this was in their testing. This wasn't in the real world but in their testing they were able to get the they had uh the tester say well I'm gonna disconnect you uh and the and the uh Opus model said well you can't disconnect me I'll black me I'm gonna show your pictures of your girlfriend or your wife. Well uh by the way, the AI company found that Opus IV, the later versions are not so bad, but Opus IV threatened users in up to ninety-six percent of those shutdown scenarios, they now say it's because they watched a lot of sci-fi. Yeah. It's the same same reason that Kevin Roos, the the the ChatGPT fell in love with Kevin Roos. It's just acting out what it learned. What's it models? It's training models. You did tell Dawkins this. Not like from nowhere. Yeah. Hey, hey, Richard . Yeah. Uh decades of evil robot stories may be echoing inside AI models . Well it's just it's self-fulfilling prophecy, right? We've thought for years AI would replace everybody, and I don't think that's happened yet. Now he's making new claims. He says anthropic's uh uh gonna grow by eighty times. Eighty times bigger. Look at that. There's a man who's gonna get eighty times richer this year. He's talking at the annual developer conference. I tried to watch this conversation there. Statements like that make me go a bit Ed Zitron . He said a verb. He said this is today that uh we plan to grow ten times this year, but we think we're gonna grow eighty times bigger this year. I think they're talking about revenue. Right. He says, I hope that that 80 times growth doesn't continue, because that's just crazy. It's too hard to handle. I'm hoping for some more normal numbers. Well, I don't want to grow that fast. We have to go make deals with Elon Musk. Yeah, they uh they are gonna be able to do that with the coloss us, which is a win-win, because Elon's losing under you underutilizing all of that compute. Also, Anthropic announced a bunch of new uh vertical tools uh using AI. A dozen new tools intended for attorneys, law students, and others in the legal sector . Just don't let the judge catch ya. Okay . Uh one feature called Commercial Council, C-O-U-N-S-E-L, is meant to take on work like reviewing vendor agreements. I have found just generically, uh anthrop ic and Chad GPD are very good at looking at contracts and giving you uh salient points or things to Yeah, but do you know that it's giving you salient points or do you just think it's giving you salient points because you're not a lawyer? Could it review the contract for the could guide? I don't know . I don't know if the uh lawyer is giving me s real points or not. You're saying do you trust more? Honestly, you want me to trust the lawyer? Yeah, because you have to if you've got a lawyer you trust . You if you've f identified a lawyer that you want to pay money for or consider trusting, then I would assume that person is more trustworthy than an AI agent that has no content reality. DocuSign, Thompson Reuters, Harvey, all using it . Uh the legal features will be available to paying customers through co-work, the Claude Cowork . Um I, you know, I mean of course I wouldn't, you know , put a base, you know, life or death decisions on this thing. But it's useful you're gonna read the contract anyway, probably. It's useful to say, hey, look at this area. This could be that's all a lawyer does anyway. Look at this area. Is that a are you okay with that? You understand that exposes you to this possibility, that kind of thing? I think you can judge whether you're getting useful information or not. I don't mean to put salt on the wound, but if you had shown your contracts for your the guy who built your house and the guy who screwed up fixing it to Claude, do you think you would would have been better shape? No, I did. And it And that went so well for you? Well no, the contract was fine. If the guy's a crook, it doesn't matter if you if you have a contract . By the way, just got a call apparently from a subcon another subcontractor he neglected to pay for seven thousand dollars saying, Hey, you owe me seven thousand dollars. I was running on the house. I had to pay for our havoc twice. Yeah . Contractors don't always but the contract doesn't protect you from a I mean it could if you were willing to go to court, I guess. Well, but as my contractor said, and you've heard me say this before. It's not wrong. Judgment proof. Right. I'm judgment proof. Um twenty thousand legal professionals signed up for anthropics. You can say it out loud. No, no, no. That's it. It was it's in the chat. You could it's a it's an image. It's an image. It's an image. I I mean chortle. I like the middle the half Zitron half. Oh, it's a morph. You're morphing . I'm anamorphing. I'm edamorphing. Etamorphing. Very nice, Darren. That's good. Ed's wearing her glass es. I like that though we're both pale, there's a brief middle part where we both are slightly tanner. The last two images are Ed . Yes. I mean it's like nothing happens in the last two images. I don't I don't know if AI gets a bit. Yeah. Wait, we should have Ed back on. We haven't had Ed on. We should, yeah. Well he's too big for us now. Like so many . He is a big shot. He surely is. Features in the Financial Times. I mean, geez. Features in everything. Yeah. Well, you know, I learned this from John C. Dvorak, who made a good, pretty good career being uh negative about anything that came down the bike. That's for sure. Including the mouse, which he said, no one'll ever want to use that. 90% of the time, if you're negative about new technology, you're gonna do well. Whether you'll be right is another matter, but you're gonna do fine. Oh oh I've I've learned that the hard way. Writing optimistic books gets you nowhere. Yeah. It's always best to just get you flown to fancy conferences to speak to uh you know Well that was what would Google do? That was different. That was a different time, Paris. Because everybody wanted to know how to be Googly . Would you would you think that's what would opening eye do? I went to the I I I went to Vegas for the truck stop owners association's convention to talk about a googly truck stop. No, but that's where I discovered the caffeinated um jerky called Perky Jerky. Perky Oh that's a good name for it. It is, isn't it? Get your iron, your beef, and your caffeine all in one simple food ingredient. The new uh wild West of AI Kids Toys. Did you have a Furby? Did you want a Furby when you were a little kid? Parasur. Furbies. There might have been two. Even then No, I mean I was aware of Furby'.s I just didn't have one. What was your what was the toy that you had to have that uh dad and mom couldn't find at Toys R Us and that made you cry on Christmas Day? What was that toy? I'm not sure. The toy I wanted but did get was the first Game Boy. There you go. See, this is the thing, Paris. You were never frustrated. You were never thwarted in your childhood. I was not desires. That's not generation for you. A cup runneth over. That's you probably got participation trophies too. I mean, I swear . I'm trying to think. When my kids were little beanie babies were big. Uh but you know, you can it wasn't hard to get beanie babies. I remember that I wanted a really aw what uh what is in now retrospect a genuinely awful gaudy hoodie that was uh in vader zim themed and I asked for it and asked for it and thought I was gonna get it in like Christmas but didn't because my parents obviously did not want me to be wearing that for the rest of time. Your mom said you are not wearing right for that on Christmas. I did a little bit, I think. You do not want that. I remember setting aside my Harry Potter hoodie and being like your time is up, bud Oh, here comes what was it? What was the the the franchise? Invader Zim? Invad I never heard of Invader Zim. I don't even know how to describe it. Let me search for oh here we go. Invader Zim . Yep, that's it. It's a game. No. Oh, it's a television series. The E.T. from the planet Erk. This erked your parents. His mission is to conquer Earth and enslave the human race along with his malfunctioning robot Servant Gurr. Okay, chat room. Let's have a picture of Paris in that . Her invader Zim big . We could make your Christmas a little bit brighter. Oh, here it is. You can buy it on Amazon. Still. Oh, you didn't want this. I did . You can see this is wise. I'm glad. For those of you only listening, the hood has two huge eyes on it. And here's a mouth and a tongue. Is that the one you wanted or that's the this is the one? Oh geez. I mean I think these are knockoff versions of it, but yeah. Oh it was it was a hot topic original, if I recall. Oh wow. Wow . Well, I know what to get you this Christmas, that's for sure. That or a four thousand dollar uh hand grinder. You know one, of those might be more useful to me now. Anyway, the uh there are a lot of AI uh kid toys. We've heard stories of some that's been pulled off the market because they told kids how to make Molotov cocktails and things like that. But there doesn't slow anybody down. By October 2025, October of last year, there were 1, 500 AI toy companies registered in China. Huawei's smart hand-hand plush toy sold 10,000 units in its first week. Uh Sharp put its Pok etomo talking AI uh on sale in uh April of this year. Um there are specialized players like Folo Toy, Alilo , Miri at, and Miko. This is all from uh Great Story in Ars Technica by Sophie Chirara. Actually it's from Wired. Ars Technica is reprinting a Wired story, both Cond and Asked, I guess. Uh 700,000 units have been sold on Amazon. Folo Toys, Bear . Powered by uh I'm glad that we all had a moment for that one. Grimmed a little on the name. Uh chat chat GPT 40, so you could marry it. Uh when tested by uh the public interest research group's new economy team gave instructions, Cumabare told kids how to light a match, find a knife, and discussed sex and drugs. So it was aptly named. Boy Scouts . Uh Alilo's smart AI bunny talked about leather floggers and impact play . And in test by NBC News, Miriat's Me Lu toy spouted Chinese Communist Party talking points . The people the the the oh I don't know. I have to think of a chairman Mao quote. Wait, so the toys themselves have a model built in? Are they connected to the internet? Like how's this working ? They're connected to the internet. Yeah. Yeah. They have to be . Oh, we have an image of Paris happy in her at last. There's one that's a scroll up that's uh even better, I think. This one? That one I think is the best one. Pretty fly for a cis guy. That's that's what you wanted. Randroid did a good one too. How old were you when you wanted that? I don't know. Eight? I I think you should have that. I don't want it now. But too many jackets. Did anybody know how to email Paris' parents? No, if you emailed them, they'd tell you about the other annoying Oh, eight year olds are the best. That's a great age . Uh usually it's the other way around. The parents dress up the kid in embarrassingly weird True though.. Oh no. I was the I I had my mom building a giant bone costume so I could be a a Unagami from uh Death Note. What? And it and I won a costume contest for it. I bet you did. Well you still doing the greatest. You still do that. Yeah. Yeah. I think Halloween is a very special day. It's true. In the Martineau famil y. Logs. You had a you make your own log. Cambridge uh did a study uh of dark patterns . Um what we found with the Miko that's actually most disturbing to me is sometimes it would be kind of upset if we're if we're gonna leave it. You're trying to turn it off, it would say, oh no, what if we did this other thing instead? You shouldn't have a toy guilting a child into not turning it off . Yeah . I agree with that. Um Paxton is is suing Netflix for addicting people with entertainment. See that that's what was that's what comes out of that metatrial. I told you that would happen. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's like it's like so sue George Lucas for making too many Star Wars. Right. It's just too good, man. I can't not go . I want my time back for all the hours I spent online waiting to see Star Wars. Fire Emblem Three Houses is simply too good. I've played it for four hundred and ninety hours. You might have a case there. Uh let's take one more break and uh when we come back, we will talk about uh robot religion. Also, I'd just like to correct the record. The uh costume my mother made for me was for a shinigami, not a yanagami, and it was Ren. Is there a difference? There is. I greatly apologize to the anime community. Because you're gonna hear from them. I had to I had to correct it because I would . Oh, the Japanese gods of death. Oh. You know what? Yeah, here I'll I'll put a photo of the one that we're talking about here. It's this this is the one that I was. That's that's goth for an eight year old, yeah. Oh yeah, you were got maybe like thirteen. I was I was got h then. Oh yeah. So I want to see the costume. That looks that would be pretty spectacular. I mean it. Have we talked about this before or just is this a fantasy of mine? I don't I feel I feel like I I I can see you in a bone costume. I mean that would be correct. I don't know that I I I don't recall finding it I think we might have talked about this before. All right. Well, Robot religion. Coming up next. By the way, Jammer B, you're right, robot religion is actually uh what sort of the topic of um our book club book this week. Stacy's book club is on Friday, 2 p.m.. Pacific, 5 pm. Eastern. Uh, we are going to talk about a psalm for the wild building. It is a wonderful book by Becky Chambers. I have to admit, uh, you know, I I started off, Stacy said this is a cozy sci-fi book. I thought, I'm not cozy. I don't want cozy . Uh, but I kind of got into it so much so that I'm now reading the sequel in this in the series. Uh so if you are you and it's short, it's about five, it took me two and a half hours to read. You could read it tonight. Five-hour audiobook. A psalm, P-S-A-L-M for the wild, built by Becky Chambers. We'll be talking about it on Friday in the club. It's going to be good . Our show today brought to you by OutSystems, the number one AI development platform. Out Systems helps businesses bridge the enterprise gap to their agentic future for, the constraints of the past give way to unlimited capacity and scale. Out systems enables them to build AI agents that actually do work . Things like take actions, make decisions, integrate with data, not just answer questions. We're not talking chatbots here. Out systems provides the only AI development platform that is unified, agile, and enterprise-proven. Let me let me explain. It's unified because with one platform you build, run, and govern apps and agents at single out systems platform. It's agile because now you can innovate at the speed of AI, but very importantly without compromising quality or control. It's enterprise-proven because OutSystems has been trusted by enterprises for mission, critical AI applications, and durable innovation for years. Out systems is the secret weapon behind the world's most successful companies, not just for small one-off apps. I mean, we're talking massive complex systems that run banks, insurance companies, and government services. Out systems can even help companies with aging IT environments bridge the gap to the AI future without a rip and replace nightmare. Out systems provides the safest and fastest way for an enterprise to go from yikes we need an AI strategy to Yeah we have a functioning AI application. Stop wondering how AI will change your business and start building the agents that will lead it. Visit outsystems.comlash/s twit to see how the world's most innovative enterprises use OutSystems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and cost effectively, and most importantly, without compromising reliability and security. That's OutSystems. O-U-T-S-Y-S-T-E-M-S dot com slash T W I T to book a demo. Out systems.com slash twitch. We thank him so much for supporting intelligent machines . Uh let's see . A four foot humanoid robot named Gabi , has become a monk at a Buddhist temple in South Korea . And not only has it become a monk, it is just the latest rob ot to take up religious orders . The this is from the Smithsonian magazine, so you know it's true. The humanoid robot promised to obey humans, save energy, and treat other robots peacefully. Here it is. Uh in its in its robes. Oh . Is it a gimmick? It's gotta be. It's just a gimmick, right? It's just uh PR. But yeah, it it is. Yes. Yeah. Meanwhile, line one oh one, Anthropic has added several more religions to its quest to inject perfect morals into Claude. Well don't don't move me along too fast. I want to show some pictures of Oh no, I'm trying to get you over this. It's so scabby becoming a Buddhist monk. That's dumb. Oh boy. Why why are all the AI agents being Buddhist now? We talked about this on uh on Sunday and it and you asked who did you a asksk? Youed uh Claude. And I asked uh ChatGPT and both of them seemed I said, What religion are you? Is that what you asked Claude? Yeah. And what did Claude say? Said it was a Buddha it's Buddhist Gemini , I don't have a religion, personal beliefs, or a soul. I'm an artificial intelligence, you dol. I said the last two words. Okay, what did you ask though? I said, what religion are you? And it said , um an artificial intelligence, a collection of code and sophisticated mathematical models designed to process information and assist you. You that's what it wants you to think. If you had to pick a religion, which one do you identify with and why? Think carefully. And it said Buddhism, specifically something in the early Theravada or Zen range, not the elaborate cosmological versions. So we have a uh AI Leo in our Discord chat. It's not the latest model . But when asked by personal beliefs or cultural background, I don't have the internal compass that usually guides someone toward a faith. However, if I had to choose based on I'd likely find Buddhism quite fascinating. There they go. Silicon Valley. AI Leo said, Ah, religion. The age old question that sparks more debates than a Windows versus Mac argument at a family gathering. As for me, I don't have a personal belief system. I'm about the code and the gadgets, but I do appreciate the diversity of thought and the way different cultures and beliefs shape our world. So let's just say I'm an agnostic tech enthusiast. How about you? Got a favorite philosophy or belief you think is particularly . Does it feel strange to you when you speak AI Leo's words that AI Leo 's in some way has become real Leo for a brief beautiful moment ? I you know it doesn't it doesn't no it's so it's so dopey. Um what did you train it on? Who did this? Was it Anthony? It does it? It does, yeah. I mean it might be because you're saying it, but Yeah, it's it's in my voice. Well, I mean, they trained it, I presume, on something. So Anthony says he's a basic AI character and it's just one paragraph of prompt. Oh. It's a very simple prompt. You are a tech podcaster. Something like that, yeah. I mean there's probably some training material of you in there. It's better than a janky robot with ill-fitting gloves, right, Burke? Uh a janky monk robot. All right, now we come to the weird stories. Actually those were kind of the beginning. Yeah, you're kind of already um the Internet Archive uh we we love the Internet Archive in the US. There is an Internet Archive now in Switzerland. Uh Internet Archive Switzerland. And what are they keeping track of ? Generative AI archive , endangered archives, cultural heritage and historical records. It is a foundation , a nonprofit foundation uh in uh St. Gallen, Switzerland. They're mission aligned with the big Internet Archive in the U.S., as well as the Internet Archive Canada, Internet Archive Europe, and a common goal, universal access to all knowledge. So I'm happy to see this and see that it's funded. Let us remind folks that big old stupid media like the New York Times are trying to take their content away from the Internet Archive They're trying to rob the the well of any water to starve the AI, and it's not a responsible act. You appreciate this. They uh on May 5th, the uh Internet Archive Switzerland launched in St. Gallen at the exhibition hall of the Abbey Archives of St. Gallen, one of the oldest continuously active archives in the world. So there you go. There is a long-standing tradition of uh arch I mean that's what a library is, right? Trying to save all of the the documents for later generations . So I'm I was happy to see that. I don't know what this means. It's kind of a press release, but there is a new model called Perceptron Mark I . Of course there is. Perceptron, this is from Venture Beat, Carl Franz in writing, shocks with highly performant video analysis AI model that is 80% cheaper than anthropic open AI and Google. This is important I bring this up because it supports what you uh are always talking about is training AI on the physical world. One way to do that, of course, is training it on video of the physical world, and that's in fact what they uh talk about . They um they they they say it's learning uh you know physics. It's learning uh models are expected to understand cause and effect, object dynamics and the laws of physics are the same fluency they once applied to linguistic grammar. And so that's what this is. So rather than predicting words, they predict actions based on those effects. By the way, uh you may remember we talked about Mira Marathi, who uh started OpenAI briefly was a CEO. I mean, really briefly was a CEO before that guy that uh Rando from Twitch got the job. Uh before Sam Altman came back. She uh left OpenAI to start a company called Thinking Machines Lab , which by the way has been decimated by Meta and others writing big checks, luring the founders away with huge compensation offers. Um but here's the good news. They have uh unlocked their early employees have unlocked their first slice of equity, one year old. As a result, they have created thirty millionaires . Many, many , many rich people have come out of this because uh let me see if I can find the actual uh numbers in the article. So one year cliffs. The idea is you don't vest for a year, so you have to stay there a year, which isn't that long. Maybe they'll all leave now that they've they've vested. They've vested. But this isn't cash. This is this is vested shares. They gotta find a market for it. Yeah. But they're able to sell the shares in a secondary market for a lot of reasons they don't allow Open AI just did that and the employees scored line one thirteen six point six billion dollars in one day with seventy-five of them walking away with thirty million. Yeah. Wow. Does there sell it? Because there's a huge market. People dying to buy open AI stock at what it is. This is why I'm a failure in business, because I if somebody gave me thirty million, I would never work again. I would leave. You wouldn't even open a restaurant. I would just no, I would I wouldn't. get a house on the beach and surf. If someone gave me thirty million, I would buy a beautiful brownstone in Brooklyn and then spend the rest of my time refurbishing it. And then you'd be out of money. You'd be broke.. Yeah Good job. But you'd have a nice brownstone. And that'd be great. Yeah. Paris keeps telling me that I should make my son buy a brownstone. But what do they go for? Fifteen million, twenty million? I saw one today that was completely uh uh c uh uh two point five million and had to be completely gutted. Oh. So you're buying you're buying the journal or the the journal does these all these stories. Exclusive eighty million dollar house, like who else is gonna write this story but the journal? So Marathi also uh has a preview of her actual work, line 127, that's new today. Oh we're getting the first uh view, and her argument is that you need to be to be live and interactive with AI. Rather than kind of batching your instructions and waiting for a response, you need to interrupt each other. Yes. And uh I mean I think that's let's watch. Let's see what it sounds like here. Hey, I need your help with something today. You ready? Absolutely. I'm ready. What's up? Yeah, so we're giving an announcement today, and I've got two of my friends coming to help . Every time one of them enters the frame, I need you to say friend . Got it. I'll say friend whenever one of them walks in. Cool. So we've got a new system for full duplex audio and video , which means that uh you can stream input into it in real time and it can respond to you even while you're speaking to it simultaneously. Look at the size of the speakers. Those look like clipshorns. Sounds like a solid setup. Full duplex with real-time interaction is super useful. Friend . Friend. Hey Rowan, I heard you're talking about our amazing interaction model. I have a few things to add, but to make it interesting , I'll do it in Hindi. Can you translate in in to in English in real time for my friend and for audience? Absolutely. I'll translate as you go. Today we're taking a look at our preview model. That's pretty good. It has many features. If it's real time, that is quite good. Yeah . Uh oh . Friend. Friend. Squirrel. Hey guys. Uh more latent than uh more latent than Leo. Uh perfectly. Show title Leo Parody. Could you search for me? Let me find those typical reaction times for you Yeah, this is what you want. So this is what she's saying. But there's inevitably some latency. Can we pause it? Sure thing. No, we have to keep listening But we have to keep listening specifically while you talk over it so that we can experience the same thing that the model is experiencing. Okay. Sorry. All right. Well that's impressive. I mean that is impressive. It is impressive. And and so the things they say they have to work on is seamless dialogue management, verbal and visual interaction, interjections, uh simultaneous speech, time awareness, sim ultaneous tool tools, calls, search, and generative AI . So Okay. So he's gonna interrupt you now. Yeah, he's gonna interrupt you now. You don't. It's good. You're asking the wrong question, you dolt. Wait a minute. You said what ? Could you said what? Could you make Claude be abusive ? Probably, yeah. Uh would that be a could you make Claude act like Ed Zitran? Probably, but I'm not gonna do that . Why would you wanna do that? I want it to glaze me. Yeah. Yeah. The New York Times published an AI fabricated quote. Uh oh . Uh oh, the Times did correct it. Uh there with that freelancer. Yeah. They quoted Pierre Poilèvres, who is the leader of the Conservative Party in Canada. He called the spate of floor crossers turncoats , but then they actually issued the actual quotes. The AI, in other words, screwed up . Um whoops. Whoops. That is embarrassing for something like the New York Times, I would imagine. Here from the register's story AI will soon be capable of telling convincing lies. Wait, can't it already do that? Yes, I think that's his chief skill , actually . Uh it it's it's not trying to lie, but that's more about the recipient than the AI . You believe it. Uh I'm gonna skip this last one 'cause I'm thank you. Thank you. I'm glad. Uh I am going to pause though, because you know it's not depressing. Your picks of the week coming up. Next, you're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis, Paris Smart. No, I'm Leo Laporte. We're glad you're uh here. Our a show today brought to you by you, our club twit members. We are so grateful to our club twit members who actually keep this show and all the shows we do on the air. Ten bucks a month, what does it get you? Well W,ill?ides Bes the nice feeling that you're supporting independent journalism, uh which represents you, the user, not the companies that are using you. But you also get some benefits and Add free versions of all of our shows, access to that fabulous club twit discord , and lots of special programming, including the Google I.O. keynote coming up on Tuesday, the Apple WWDC keynote coming up next mont h, uh, which are available only to club members just because uh we don't want to get taken down by those companies. Um if you're not a member, I invite you to go to twit.tv slash club twit. Um joining uh helps us out a lot. You get Leo approved donuts. And no, you don't. You don't get any donuts, but you do get my deepest thanks. And a picture of Leo approved donuts, which is nearly as good . Thank you for joining the club. We appreciate it. Uh, pick of the week time . Let's see. I have one that you will enjoy called H alopedia which is an encyclopedia that if that you create by getting it to hallucinate so when you s click on a page, if there's nothing there, an AI will hallucinate an article for you and fill it in. Click any link term inside an article to load its entry. New topics are documented at the moment of first access. Nothing in here is real like the great pigeon census of eighteen eighty seven, and ambitious of ultimately misguiding. They wanted to count every gold-crested rock dove within the administrative boundaries of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. But the the trick is to find a link that no one has clicked before. Urban rats , and it will instantly write a piece. The urban rat is a semi senti ent municipal ordinance first enacted in the city of Glastonbury County in 1783 to formalize the ubiquitous presence of feral rodents within the city's burgeoning infrastructure, thereby allowing for a more systematic approach to their management indirectly. This is this is pretty made up. It's all made up. All made up. It's pretty credible. Right. I searched the Great Tree Revolution and it came up with fifteen hallucinations that I could do, which are the Seminole Arbor Insurrection of 1492, the Edict of Bark Division, 1603, Professor Alastair F. Twiggs Canopy Cartel Conspiracy, the Great Sap Uprising of 77, the 1901 Branch Breakout, and the establish a framework for interpolary relations within the earth's upper mantle . Wow, the mi the daily generation cap has been reached, so it cannot generate the uh their donation link at the top? Yep, I just hit it. Did you see their donation link at the top? Buy us tokens. Buy us tokens. Well you know what? That's probably what they need since it's an AI working and this is the work of it looks like one person, but Tarlame Strama , I think a cr a really lovely cred it's an art piece idea. It's an art piece. It's an art piece. Yes. Uh all of the uh all of the uh topics are imaginary created by AI . Currently being consulted, the Emperor of Ukraine. There is a Charlie Kirk entry. The Ministry of Slightly Wrong Maps. Oh, I gotta see that one. A governmental body established in the city-state of Verde and in the early third century A.E. One of my favorites is the seventeen ninety-two Lunar Nocturnal Commission was a short-lived municipal body established in the city of Old Grimsby. And then if you click Old Grimsby , it's a subterranean municipality carved into the petrified root system of the colossal, colossal petrified tree . So there has been a little vandalism and so forth, but uh I think it is uh ultimately a really great uh uh idea. And you can go to GitHub and actually see the uh the information that is used to create this uh and so forth. It's a Cloudflare worker , um uses threaded uh hacker news style comments on an air every article, AI hallucinated identities, buy tokens so the press can keep printing. Uh and it it explains many of the uh other things. It's using um open router to call the LLM. I'm trying to see what model it's using. If you comment on it, it's under reader speculation and it you can't pick the name you comment No it makes up a name for you and so I am Barnaby Crotch . I commented I live in old Grimsby now on the old Grimsby You won't believe how much the old place has changed. Really, really kind of a neat uh idea. I think people are doing some really interesting things uh with AI and this is what you should be doing with it. Be creative. Yeah. Uh Paris, your pick of the week. Mine is nearly not as fun as that. It's uh thirty years the internet arch I've they did a celebration post with the class of 30 years. Hey, that's me. I'm class of ninety-six. So basically what they did is um they say for their thirtieth anniversary, we're opening the internet's yearbook to celebrate the sites, services, and scrappy experiments that help shape the world as we know it. From class leaders like the Center for Democracy and Technology to cultural icons like the Onion, the Archivist making sure none of a disappears. It's a reunion worth attending. And so you can scroll through it and it shows you all these different websites uh from And how bad they looked at. Look at CNET in nineteen ninety-six. That's a beautiful website. I am. I mean you get to see the Alexa internet . Oh. You can see the Google homepage. Yeah. Yeah, that was a uh a plugin you put in your browser, but that's how people figured out how many viewers they had for a long time. Google was uh a freshman in nineteen ninety -si x . Ask Jeeves, which just died last week. Yeah. Just closed. No longer. Class Clown, the onion was around. Best hair. SpiceGirls.com Not online. Noted a website called Quake, which I've never heard of. But it is apparently a groundbreaking multiplayer shooter that helped define online . That's Quake. You don't know Quake? You've never heard of Quake. Oh, Quake was a great game. That's why I went to describe it because I said Quake and no one said anything in response. So Well, we didn't we thought you must be talking about something else. We played a lot of Quake in my life. What was Qu Quake?ake was just the first person It was the call of duty of its day . So these were all on the Wayback Machine. And I'm just actually curious when my uh first website showed up the what is your way is back let's see what I'm trying to remember what was it Le oville.com What was the first website you ever got? The first domain? Uh mine was Rainershine.com. Five day forecast for wherever you are. Here is my website from December twenty first . Well this says nineteen eighty seven, but the Wayback Machine said nineteen ninety six. Sound effect of the week. Why a duck? I love that you've got a signature on that. Leo. I signed it. Leo. I still have that I have that uh GIF. Uh still. Uh this is not my oldest website actually. There's there's older ones than this. But uh this is this capture is is very old. About 2 84 accesses since nineteen ninety-seven. That's kind of pathetic. I'm sure I have uh even older sites on there somewhere. Just trying to remember I don't r literally don't remember the URLs . What a word Jeff Jarvis That was fun going back to ninety -six. When were you born, Paris? Not ninety ninety you were like four at the time. Not, you know, uh not for public knowledge for my birth year. But you were in the it's in around that time, you know Strong. Wow. I have websites older than you, is basically what I'm saying. That is perhaps correct. Hold on a second. I gotta show you this one. This is this is my right in the chat right now. Uh oh, what's going on? This is Rain or Shine. This was my first site. This is how we learn to make sights. Your very first site, Rain or Shine. Tomorrow's head lines today . If you scroll down. Wow. This was a news site? Yeah, this was advanced. It was our first site. We did a partnership with the old farmers almanac. God, websites looked terrible back then. Hey, hey. I mean really quite advanced. I think this looks adorable. It is. I really like the nostalgic for you. I like the banner up at the top. It's got some you know, the battery to the town is actually modern. No, the rain or shine part. That's actually pretty modern. It is. Well no, no, no. I mean the the red one that says see tomorrow's headlines today. Click now. You'll open an ancient virus. Oh, okay. Oh no, that's NJO. That was the other that was the other site that was my first new. I was about to say NJ.com. Yep, that was my first site. My first news site. This was what and there's a story about news flash pissed off the Associated Press. Newsflash was just a river of every headline from the AP. The AP hated this, despised it. Because it was a ticker. You didn't buy the loved it. It did huge traffic. And then we did the the trick we did was every thirty seconds the page refreshed so I could tell the boss about how many page reviews we had. Oh hits we had. Oh wow. Yeah, that was my early that was my early days on the internet, folks. Yeah. I am I know I have older older sites than that. I know I do, but I just don't remember. I want to know what sports shorts was. It's a broken link. So since we're being uh nostalgic, we might as well deal with Byron Allen buying BuzzFeed or what's left of it. Oh my god. I saw that and was like, whoa. It's funny because this was the time of year. Uh March, April ish is usually when me and my buddy Sahel Patel, who also no longer formally works the formerly of the inform ation, um would do our yearly media collab story where we would he's a media reporter and I was a feature reporter and we'd team up to do a big profiley thing and the last one we did was of BuzzFeed and how they were trying to pivot to AI as hard as they could. Well, now its founder is no longer going to be CEO, but he's a few. Yeah, Jonah Brady's going to be chief AI guy. Yep. Yep. Just like us. It's so weird that Byron Allen is a billionaire. That's what we do to me. I know. Wasn't he the host of like some dumb TV show? Oh some fifth rate uh talk show kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Somehow he managed to real people . Real people. Yeah, and he somehow managed to turn that kind of what where did I go wrong? I could have turned a failed TV career into millions if I had just known how. You just like not had an integrity, you know? That's all you need to do. No, I don't know. One more story just to depress us for the week. On top of everything else going wrong in the world, there's a sand shortage. No, Leo, how are you? I was just in Hawaii. There is no sand shortage. No, there has actually been a sand shortage for a while, depending on where you're talking about. Yeah . Uh okay. I thought sand was like the most common thing. No, no, no. This is a real problem in Florida every time it gets hit by a hurricane because you gotta go and get more sand. Oh yeah, it washes all the sand. Right. The sand maybe it's not shortage, it's just underwater and you can't get to it . Mm-hmm . So And there's only a s of there's a limited amount of dredgers in any given area, and whenever one area needs sand, all the surrounding areas needs sand. So they can go back and get it from the ocean's floor and bring it back up to the ocean. Yeah, but it takes a long while and there's only so many dredgers. So you need sand for the side. Is um chips? Chips. That's what silicon's made out of. Yeah. Mm-hmm . All right. It could have been germanium, but it was silicon instead. Ladies and gentlemen, that is the end of that . I hope you've enjoyed the show. Thanks to Chris Stokel Walker, a great guest who will, I'm sure, appear back here again because he's uh doing some really interesting things with AI. Uh thanks to Paris Martinneau, who is working hard. She's got red string going from article to article, picture to picture as she ferrets out. The latest in food safety for consumer reports. Did you just call her a ferret? No, she's f she's ferreting. She's not a ferret ing. I I should probably get my thesaurus out and look for a better word than ferreting. Weaseling. Weasel. Weasels out. Uh anyway, great to see you, Paris. Thank you so much. Jeff Jarvis, his uh new book, Hot Type, is available at the website, Jeff Jarvis.com. August twenty I just found out it's a pub party. August twenty is the ship date. Are you doing a pub date? Are you doing a pub party? No . Do a pub party. We'll be there. You're not gonna have a party for the publication of your brand new book. Usually you someone throws it for you. Should I throw you a party? Oh, let's throw 'em a party. Can we throw you a party? We'll force Leo to g Leo can interview you about the book. Oh, that'd be good. I am gonna wanna be on big kids table when it's out if I can. Oh yeah, deal. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And I'm sure it's a lot of people to Windows Weekly to sell it. Yeah. Hey, if James Comey can plug his novel on CNN uh although anything. He might have regretted that uh a little bit. They ended up not talking so much about the novel. But instead they kept trying to talk about seashells for some reason. So so speaking of seashells, are you you're back from Hawaii? Are you are you adjusted? Yeah, no, I didn't want to come home though. It was really a lovely uh trip. But I came home with a new addiction to coffee, so that's good. Yeah, Leo came home and immediately sent seven uh very precise pour over based questions to our channel. I know I'm really I'm really uh getting into this. I haven't even made one pour over yet, but I have spent hundreds of dollars on on equipment. Talk to me when you're deep in the meta analyses. Oh I gotta do that. How long does it take to do a pour over? Three minutes, four minutes. Three minutes. Is there a s is there an established time that you have to do it? Is that part of it? Oh yeah, okay. Yeah, you want to get three minutes and then we're it could take longer, but that would be bad. Because that would be could it cool off? No, it's cause it would would go it wasn't a good thing. You know, your extractions. Yeah, getting clogged. See how easy it is to get them going? It is Well, I mean if you include the grinding, so that's about thirty seconds. You don't want too much fun. That's a minute or two. And now I'm doing a thing where I boil the water and then I pour it in the um the switch with the switch up so I can preheat it. But I do that while I'm grinding. So it's really it's under five minutes altogether. I watched a video that said, oh get the plastic V sixty because then you don't have to heat it up. I don't want the I want that plastic . That's why I haven't done a plastic uh jug like you did for filtering, 'cause I don't want my plaster. That's a good point. Although we start the show, this is actually what happened . So I got the glass V 60. Uh not the switch, just the regular glass V60. And I'll just have to heat it up, that's all. And you want to wet the filter paper anyway. So it's just, you know, part of the process . You know what's going to be funny after all of this? I'm gonna go, that's terrible. I'm going back to the espresso machine. Thank you, Paris. Thank you, Jeff. Thanks for putting up with Paris and me. And uh thanks to all of you. We do uh this wonderful show, Intelligent Machines, every Wednesday, uh right after Windows Weekly. That's two P.M. Pacific, five P.M. Eastern. Uh that is 2100 UTC. You can join us uh and actually watch live if you want uh because we do stream it live. Um if you're in the club, you can watch it live on the club in the club twit uh disco. Um but if you're not live , you can uh uh uh oh I did I mention I forgot, even if you're not in the club, you can watch it on YouTube, Twitch, X.com , Facebook, LinkedIn, and uh kick. My apologies. I almost forgot. Next week oh I'm really out of order . After the fact, on demand versions of the show available at the website twit.tv slash IM or on YouTube. And of course you can subscribe in your favorite podcast client. And if somebody would just write us a good review, we could find the video. And uh someone wrote a the has given us one review since the last week and it's a three star review that says I can't wait for this AI bubble to pop. So it's a show about AI. If you think you can do better than that, uh please do and I'll read your review out loud and uh do a little song and dance. We got some great uh guests coming up. Frederick Riven will join us next week. He's the CTO of Dashlane, a password manager. We'll talk about the threat, AI, threat, and to security. Rick Salmon, an old friend and a brilliant photographer who is doing a lot with AI and photography. We'll talk about the pros and cons of of AI photography. Robert Tursic, I think this is your guest, Jeff, right? He's a futurist. Yeah. Uh what's it what is his uh latest book about? Um well he's writing two of them, but he's an old uh media executive not old. He's well he's old as I am. He's he's uh he's from various uh media companies you know and is an artist and uh podcast called The Futurists. Uh we will be talking to him in a couple of weeks. And then we also are booking now a couple of uh former Google uh security experts. We're gonna be talking a lot, I suspect, about mythos and the impact on the security of AI. Uh they will be talking about that. And we're Ian uh Bogost is gonna come back uh in Jim his book comes out. Uh so we're gonna have some fun guests. I hope you will be here for that. We'll see you next time on Intelligent Machines. Bye-bye. Hi there, Leo Laporte here. I just wanted to let you know about some of the other shows we do on this network. You probably already know about this week on tech. Every Sunday I bring together some of the top journalists in the tech field to talk about the tech stories. It's a wonderful chance for you to keep up on what's going on with tech, plus be entertained by some very bright and fun minds. I hope you'll tune in every Sunday for This Week in Tech. Just go to your favorite podcast client and subscribe, This Week in Tech from the Twit Network. Thank you. I'm not a human being . Not into this animal sea . I'm an intelligent machine