Sperm Racing Startup Controversy

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff and Paris are here. Our guest this hour, Frederick Ravan, he is the CTO of the Password Manager Dash Lane. Talks about the security situation, how his company is using vibe coding to develop and how to do it safely , and what Claude's mythos means for the future of security that's coming up next on Intelligent Machines. This episode is brought to you by OutSystems, a leading Agenic Systems platform built for the enterprise. Organizations all over the world are building, orchestrating, and governing agentic systems on the OutSystems platform, and with good reason. Architect, deliver, and scale governed agentix system s with agility and trust using one open and unified platform. Power secure company-wide agentic orchestration for core business operations. Teams of any size and technical depth can use out systems to build, deploy, and manage AI apps and agents quickly and cost effectively without compromising reliability and security. It's the leading agentic systems platform that's unified, agile, and enterprise proven, allowing you to accelerate growth, reduce operational friction, and deliver real enterprise impact with AI. OutSystems. Build your agenic future. Learn more at Outsystems.com slash twit. That's outsystems.com/slash twit . Podcasts you love. From people you trust this is twit this is intelligent machines with jeff jarvis and paris martinau episode eight hundred seventy one recorded wednesday, May 20th, 2026. Control F Techno King . It's time for Intelligent Machines, the show where we cover the latest in AI, robotics, and all the smart doodads all around you. I have a smart doodad that I'm gonna show you in a little bit that uh Harper Reed convinced me to buy. I'm sure I'm gonna regret it. It connects my network directly to China. So that what could possibly go wrong . Uh but we'll we'll get to that in a little bit. A lot of AI news. Yesterday's Google IO whoo dumped a ton of news on us. We'll talk about that. But as always with Intelligent Machines, I like to uh begin the show with a guest. First, let me introduce uh our regular panel. Paris Martin O is here from Consumer Reports, where she is an investigative journalist. She combines the two best cities in the world in her website, Paris.ny c. Got ' allem there . They're all there . And I just, by the way, I just registered laport.petaluma. ca.us . Doesn't have the same ring to it. No, it doesn't. Also with us Jeff Jarvis. He is uh the author of Oh look at it, the book is there. Hot type it has arrived. Hot type. Get your hot type. Is that hot type with the typo? Is that the typo version? Yeah. Yes, it is. It's funny. I'm reading and I'm going to recommend it later on, Stuart Brand's new book, and he does say he actually has a woodcut from the 17th century with a guy complaining about uh uh printer mistakes in the book. And even uh even Stewart says, you know, it's no better in the 21st century. And Jeff will vouch for that. So there's a there's a typo on the cover. They're gonna have to reprint the cover and re print the cover. My proudest thing in it is the colophon, which is you put at the end of books to explain how it was published and so on. This is the colophon, and I set that on a line of tape. Isn't that a hot night? And that's why the justification is so terrible. Hey. Hey. Sorry. Couldn't resist. Jeff is also the author of the Gutenberg Parenthesis magazine, The Web We Weave. But hot type won't come out till uh August, but you can pre-order right. Pre order now. Yep. Jefjarvis.com. Our guest today is here to talk about AI and sec urity . Freder ic Revain has been the chief tech nology officer of Dashlane since twenty fifteen, which is a very long time for a password manager. Uh Dash Lane, one of the one of the big four, I would say, last pass Bitwarden, uh one password and dashlane. Uh if you're not using one of them, you're probably not using a password manager. Dashlane always uh very popular with the Mac crowd because it's aesthetically so nice, and I think you probably get some credit for that, Frederick. Yeah, we always do. We have a nice UX and we even my my parents can use it, so that's also our goal to make it simple. Yeah, it's beautiful. But of course, when you're the CTO of a password company, you're dealing with a lot of issues. Uh one that we hope the soon abandonment of passwords. I think you've been saying this is going to be the year of the of the pass key. Well it's been the year of the PASKE since uh twenty twenty twenty twenty two . But uh truth be told, we're getting there. Slowly but we're getting there. We're sort of uh getting to critical mass with uh all the top race websites now supporting PASKIS and hopefully uh everybody else will will follow. I suppose the problem with uh pass keys that it won't be enough. So we you will have to migrate to pass keys but you will also have to get rid of the password that are the fallback behind the pass keys so that you can get the right level of security. You'll always have uh you know kind of a fallback password or at least for a long time. Yeah. Uh plus you need somewhere to put your passkeys, and I think it's really important not to put it in your device, but to put it in something that goes across devices like Dashling, like a password. Exactly. Exactly. Otherwise you're stuck into the the device and you need to recreate new pass keys on another device and so on. So you 're better having a one single uh uh vault where you can store pass keys in a secure way. You are doing something though that uh some might say is a little controversial. You have adopted AI uh in the company. Well we're not we're not the only one, so I don't know how controversial that is, but uh well I think from uh the the user's point of view, and it's probably uh important to uh assure users, there is no AI in Dashlane, right? Oh no, there is. There is a lot of AI in Dashlane. See that's where the controversy begins. You know, A there's AI in Chrome, there's AI in most browsers and buttons. There's all AI in everything except your coffee. It is even in the coffee room. I'm sure it'll be in there soon. Book that we love so much, The Physics of Filter Coffee, into my agent, and I have now a pour over expert. In fact, if you want access to that, Paris, I can give you the telegram uh and you can you can query it. But what's great is there is AI and everything. It uh you know, and that's not such a bad thing. I would say though, Frederick, and we you know we this was the week we watched commencement uh speakers be booed practically off stage by college uh graduates who did not want to hear the f letters AI . Uh browser a lot of browser users say don't put AI in my browser, Firefox and Vivaldi both responding to that. Um Well first AI is a large and broad term, so we need to define what we mean by AI. So in our case, for instance we have AI in the old school way, which is we have our own machine learning models, which is under the umbrella of AI, but that are running directly in on device. So as long as you do things in a secure and private way, I don't think AI is the issue. But you need to be careful about the data of your customers, you need to be careful about how you you train your models, you need to be careful how you deploy your models. And that's what we're trying to do. So we are personages, obviously it matters to us. We are very careful with our customer data. We never want to see the customer data. We never want to see your password. We never want to see your payment. Your pie skills, obviously, we can't see. And so that's how we've been building AI from day one. Whether it was the machine learning model that powers the auto fill engine in dash train extension or on on mobile or we have also a phishing detection model that we've trained. Same thing it doesn't run on the the browsing activity, it runs completely isolated on the device. We never see the data. So I guess some of this comes down to uh the definition of AIA has become such a trendy phrase. We've always had machine learning models, not always, but we've for a long time there's been this kind of capability. I mean heuristic detection of uh of uh fishing it's gonna require some intelligence. You can't just do it with uh regular expressions. You have to you have to be a little bit smart. So I'm sure this is yeah. Exactly. The the the model we built and that's on purpose. We built a model ourselves, we train it with our own data that we we build ourselves so that we don't use our customer data. And it relies on about let's say 80 different indicators that can uh show you that a web page is malicious. And we trained the model and then we tested the model and benchmarked it on live live data to to uh get to the the right accuracy level because that's also always the case with an AI model. You want to get the right accuracy. And it worked well and now we have it deployed for our customer, they're protected, they get fishing detection in case they go to the wrong website. And that's we are able to do that while maintaining the privacy and the security of our customers. So it's not uh you can have both, you can have AI and the privacy and security uh that you want. You have also rolled out uh Claude Code uh to your engineers. A hundred engineers in three months now is what I saw using Claude Code at Dashlane. Yeah. What are they doing with it? That's a good question. I hope they're do doing good stuff on the other. Are they token maxing Frederick? Is that the other one? No, they're definitely under token maxing. Uh actually uh I actually shared my thought on token maxing on LinkedIn recently where I think uh it's a very uh let's call it perverse uh thing to to do uh I mean we want to use the tool for it it's for like you don't need to uh talk in Max, you just need to use AI and cloud code and uh have the right context and the right uh inputs and outputs so that you maximize the use of the tool. So and that's a place where of course everything is moving very fast in that world but I think we'll have to learn the best practices of how do you uh uh get your code base and the context of your code base into the the the the right uh the right uh tools and the right ai tools. So but yeah our engine team has been using cloud code actively. We've decided to actually uh completely sandbox it so we have uh cloud code running in containers so that it cannot go rogue on on the file system or on the the laptop of the engineers and cannot go uh delete our production database or whatever because yet again security is important to us so we we definitely want to embrace the AI capabilities and what they bring, but we want to do it in a cautious way and and make sure that we uh evaluate at each step what what are the the benefits of using AI and what are also the risks. Yeah. So if we think about cloud code, uh you can't use cloud code code cloud code attached if you're not uh hosting it in the container. The container is something we build for all the engineers and and beyond engineering because we also now have product managers using cloud code to to do coding. But so it's uh we provide the framework and the guardrails around the the usage of cloud code so that it can't uh go outside of the the boundaries we're defined. It's still it's still uh connecting to uh anthropic servers though, right? No i i it is, but it's isolated. So uh for instance our GitLab uh we we we we have our code version on GitLab. We don't have right rights for cloud code to write on GitLab directly. We only have we can only read the data from GitLab inside Cloud Code to keep to give it context. But then it's up to the engineer to decide, okay, uh here's the suggestion from Cloud Code and the code it wrote it wrote, I'm uh I'm going to actually merge that that code myself, I'm going to review it and so. And then we also have uh added like uh an agent to do the code review to help the engineers do better code review because of course if you're accelerating the uh the throughput with code you need a more code review. We also have an agent to do security review to add a Is that fairly reliable? Do you feel it's still the early days? Apparently the engineering team and uh the engineers are happy with it, but uh it g we're going to have to train it. It's going to have to learn our practices, going to I mean all of us are really at the beginning of the journey like let's remember cloud code uh came out uh super recently in the grand scheme of things so uh we are going to learn how to build the infrastructure around those types of tools how to uh build the best practices. One thing we were discussing recently is we have now have uh I don't know dozens and dozen of skills that have been created for Cloud by different people around the organization. How do make sure that we review those skills, we mutualize them and we use them uh all together the right way. Why did you feel like it was necessary to do this? But why not? I mean uh it's not because there's a new tool that you can't try it. Like uh of course there are like uh pros and cons with every tool, but for me it's uh before we can make a decision we should we should test and learn. Right. So that's what we're doing. We're testing, we're experimenting, we're making sure that we do it with uh educated risks to some extent and uh and then we learn and we'll see what works and what doesn't work. For instance, today we're mostly using cloud code and AI tooling for uh sort of a more uh uh deterministic type of activities, like okay, I have to migrate uh part of the code base to another another stack or like I I need to revamp refactor part of the code base more than really uh going crazy into building fully featured uh uh fully fledged features uh that have where we don't have clear control about what's going to happen. So it's a journey. And it's a learning curve. Yeah, I mean uh some have said that you you're less likely to make those you know common mistakes like buffer underflow and overflow errors uh with an AI uh agent doing the coding than a human. I do you feel like the AI agent is less likely to make those kind of dumb mistakes . Maybe. It makes its own dumb mistakes. Yeah, I I I I I think as always in those cases, like there are things it's good at, there are things it's still learning and the models are evolving so fast uh from Opus four point six to opusi four point seven.7 and so on, that that the the the the bar is changing all the time. I think today we you still need the human to be uh looking at it and having critical thinking. Uh we need to. Yeah, we we still review every line of code. We still have two re two mandatory reviewers for every line of code at Das Lane. That's because we we we want to I mean we're a security product. We want to be careful with our customer data and uh what with what we what we're providing as a product. So I think it's too early to completely trust the machine. Can I ask you a question about that, the review process? Because uh obviously any responsible organization is reviewing code, whether it's code or whether it's journalism and writing and fac ts, it's a boring task. To understand it. Is it so much faster that it's okay I don't bother me? Is it is it is it tedious to do? Is it hard to find the errors? Tell me about that process now as a as a a task and a job. depends a lot on the engineers. There are engineers that love reviewing code because it's uh you need to find the needle in the haystack and you need to like polish the code and you need to uh to make it uh clean and and beautiful and so on there's a bit of a craft here like uh you want to polish uh I guess if you're a uh a book editor you, also want the book to be well written and well crafted at the end. So there's a bit of that. And there are other engineers that are a bit less passionate about that to your point which are more on the creative side and want to generate things for their customers and that want to to create. But you need both and uh you probab we you'll probably have agents actually doing both in the future as well. So that's uh interesting story. We're talking to uh Frederick uh Revin he, is the CTO of Dashlane. He's been there now for uh wow, that's eleven years and uh counting. Uh also other credentials, he sits on the FIDO Alliance board, which is really fantastic, is an active contributor to the credential exchange standard uh and their ai study group uh his book uh it's in french le livre du cité o if for uh a book how did he do with that how how was his reading? But you know in French uh especially for technical terms we use the the English version. So we would say CTO, not Exactly. Okay. Uh that came out in twenty eighteen, the book of uh CTOs. He's also the founder of CITO, the first French network of CTOs, and has six patents, uh, mostly around security. Uh so I mean this is a good person to talk to. When uh Anthropic announced Mythos , what was your reaction to that? What did you think? Oh well another tool that I'd like to play with. Yeah but you can't right. We can't and we we're waiting for it but uh it's going to come. Uh yeah, so uh quite a lot of excitement because that's us taking it to n the other step of okay we can get more uh eyes on our code and even if it's an agent eye uh we n we want our code to be reviewed, we want it to be uh secure and so on. So we actually decided a few years back to have our code source code publicly available. So you can find the dashboard code on GitHub, you can look at it, and we have a lot of security researchers regularly look looking at that code. If we can extend that and also have the power of the AI to help us uh make our code even more secure, then that's great. The flip side of that in those cases is that of course we need to do that before the attackers can uh leverage the issues in our code. So that's going to be the some of the interesting story when we can put our hands on Mythos. It's not open source in the sense that you can uh uh contribute to the code directly, but you can read our code, our Apple code, you can read the the code from our extension and so on. Oh that's great. And and and that's also helps our white hat hackers like the bug bug bounty program that we have that we're asking security researchers to look at the vulnerabilities in our code, that helps them. So that's what we're seeing. Yes. Yeah, for our uh enterprise customers uh we wanted to give them the ability to directly plug their own AI agents in their systems to be able to pull the the logs they have from Dash Lane. When you have Dash Line running in an organization, we generate a lot of logs about that employee has a log with that credential on that website and so on. Those are very rich logs that the admins and the security team from our customers can use to understand okay actually there's a there's been a compromission of credential in that area of the organization and so on and I want to do something about it. So we wanted to make sure that the the the rich signal that dash then is generated for our customers it can be directly uh used by the AI agents on the on the same systems like whether it's a Splunk AI or CrowdStrike AI uh and so we're making it uh natively accessible to an M S C P server for Dashlane. One of the things that makes Dashlane uh made Mac users love especially love Dashlane so much is you use Swift, it's very native feeling on on the Mac. Uh but how uh do these AI tools work well with Swift ? Or are they not writing Swift code? Is that No No, the there are there are uh our uh our team that is in charge of our Apple application are definitely uh also leveraging uh cloud code and no I mean the that's the beauty of the AI in terms of uh they can use whatever programming language. Uh they might have have biases and and issues and so on, but the programm language is sort of becoming almost irrelevant. I mean we're having a conversation uh earlier today with some of our engineering leads about the fact that uh in the past when you are uh interviewing a candidate uh sometimes you want the candidate to have a specific programming language background. But in practice, more often than not it doesn't really matter. Like if you're uh a software engineer, whether it's Python or TypeScript or or whatever, like uh you can easily learn it. And then now with AI and with tools like cloud code, you're also getting to another level of abstraction where the programming language doesn't even matter anymore because anyway it's the uh the cloud code that's going to to code for you. So it's going to be an interesting uh transition I think for software engineers in the world to understand how to manage that abstraction. Yeah, yeah, actually it's uh I think maybe maybe part of your dashlane culture, but you your kind of prefer native languages, the Android's in Kotlin, the Apple stuff's in uh Swift, you do uh command line and TypeScript. I think that's admirable. But I guess in a way, yeah, it doesn't matter anymore, does it? Well it will it will still matter uh to be uh uh sort of uh closely integrated in a operating system. If you want to be deeply integrated into uh iOS, you need to use the uh iOS native languages and Swift is native language for the Apple platform. So that allows us to have the way better. Yeah. Yeah exactly. It allows us to have the right level of uh performance, the right level of capabilities uh from the operating system, the right level of UX and so on. So we we may still uh I mean we we regularly reevaluate uh should we have a cross Uh so let me talk a little bit about the FIDO Alliance because uh that's a different hat you wear. Uh and of course we're we can thank the FIDO Alliance for the PASCI uh implementation and definition. Um have you were you involved with that? I mean we've been part of the Fidel Alliance for a long time but we were not involved in the ho in the the starting point of the PASKIS uh and uh uh we we joined the board right uh shortly after PASKIS came out because we wanted to be more involved actually. Sure. That was a trigger for us to uh to to step up our involvement and uh and since then I mean it's been a team effort because a lot of people at Dyshon are actually involved in the FIDO alliance at different levels, whether it's in technical working group, you mentioned the the credential exchange uh uh protocol that was uh uh recently uh came out of FIDE to be able to import and export credentials and pass its from one uh provider to the other. That's something that we we we co uh sponsored with uh one password and the other password manager to get it to life and uh then put it uh suggested it to the fire alliance and then everybody aligned around it. That's the beauty of the FIDO alliance. You have all the different players of the the industry that are together and working together to for the benefit of the ecosystem. Right. Bravo . Uh yeah, thank you for pass is. Uh I think uh I think uh it's really important that they be added to every password manager. I know it was a little slow to get the adoption going, but now everybody I think uh supports it. Is it do you feel like is this gonna be a more secure solution that it's as a better solution? I mean it's definitely more secure, it's uh uh not fishable, uh it's not perfect, and there's no perfect solution, but it's w way better than passwords. So uh I'm hoping for a day where there's no passwords because the problem with passwords is that they can be stolen and then you lose your access and you're you have all the the the backside of the stuff and forgotten. And forgotten exactly.y, He he's referring to the fact I know what he's talking about. I know what you're talking about. My Bitcoin wallet password a long time ago. I should have put it in Dashl . A little more about Mythos. One of the reasons anth well I think there's a couple of reasons Anthropic held it back. Uh we've debated this on the show is was it is it uh it's good for marketing. Uh is it also so compute intense that they can't really support it uh as a public release. But also I think it's pretty clear now we're starting to see this. It is good at finding vulnerabilities. It has found vulnerabilities that have been lurking in operating systems and browsers for years. And it's also seems likely because Microsoft has its version now, OpenAI has its version. It seems likely that even generally trained AIs are very good at finding uh flaws in code . Are we gonna enter are we is this gonna be the year where zero days just proliferate ? I think it would I mean uh the pessimistic the pessimist in me will say yes. The pessimist in you will probably be right more often than because the problem is that even if uh they they they restrict the access to those tools, I mean the tools are going to leak and we know they're already they've already leaked. So yeah, it means that the bad actors already have access to those tools one way or another and they're already uh probably using them to find uh the or day. So they might as well make it public and help everybody uh get their their their their code base in a in a good order. So uh I'd rather uh I understand uh some of the reasons but I I'd rather we I think we're now past the moment where we should be able even as a small player to uh have access to a the more advanced uh models to be able to anticipate and fix our own vulnerabilities because I'm pretty sure we'll find a lot of them in Dashlang even though we're trying our best to not have any vulnerabilities. It's impossible not to. Exactly. Have you been lobbying Anthropic for access? We've been lobbying Anthropic for Access for sure and they told us well you're on the waiting list and it will come. That needs to stay secure to have it before the bad guys get it. But that's a lot of people. And uh it is inevitable that this is gonna leak out. And even if it doesn't, people are learning skills with existing models that I mean, you can find a lot of stuff with the existing models. One of the things Mythos seems really good at is chaining exploits, which is a technique uh hackers have long used to get into uh all kinds of stuff. I d I just uh it it's uh it's a chicken and egg problem, I guess. Yeah, it is. I think the the one thing that it reinforces for me is that uh beyond the pure uh uh mythos story uh and having your basics uh right matters even more today than they used before because uh the basic are still going to sort of uh mitigate the risk and also having uh sort of an architectural design that's meant to be as resilient as possible will matter. So in our case, uh uh what we call our zero knowledge architecture, the fact that we never want to see the customer data has been the heart of the Dash architecture. And it's it's very complex to to to do so. Like uh everything is uh need to be encrypted, uh you can never access uh the the data, so you can it's very hard to troubleshoot. But that was a choice from the early days. And of course it's not perfect, there's always uh potenti p potential flows in in your architecture, but at least we're hoping that by doing so and trying to be uh as true as our principle uh as we can, we will be more resilient to those type of uh mythos type of attacks, uh if we want to call them that that way uh in the future. Same thing for the AI, going back to the AI, we're building uh privacy preserving AI pipelines because yet again we don't want to get to have access to the the the customer data. And I think that would make us more resilient in the future. If we don't use the customer data for training. I wef don't see the customer data when we're running inference and so on, it doesn't mean that uh the the hackers and the bad people uh will not be able to find flows and get access to it, but at least hopefully the the the blast radius will be smaller. uh hoping that uh as we get quantum computing uh that we'll be able to crack these. What what are we doing? What are you doing uh to prepare for this I don't know it's it could it be tomorrow it could be a a a decade from now it's al Well Goo Google said something around 2030. So we'll see if they're right. They're working hard at it for to create a quantum. Yeah. So so I mean we've been uh prototyping with post quantum for a long time uh at Dashlane. We were waiting for two things to really get moving to production. The first one the the NIST ran a big competition to find uh to try and define what would be the the standard algorithm of uh the the post quantum era. So that happened in the summer twenty four and now sort of the implementation is ongoing of uh those uh those those uh those algorithms so we're settled on a couple, yeah. Yeah. So so that's good and now now we can uh sort of work in confidence that uh uh the the the crypto primitives that are required to be in uh post quantum world exist and it's time for us to implement them and which we we we've started uh doing actually uh in the Dacian uh in the Dacian team. And and what do you do about this idea of harvesting uh now and decrypting later? Are you perfect forward secrecy? Are you implementing ratcheting? What are you doing to So So in the case of Dash Land that will mostly impact sharing uh transactions because you need a asymmetric encryption to be uh to to be impacted. So hopefully the rest of the dashed involved and so on is not uh quantum uh That's important. That's important. Yeah a symmetric key is not so much vulnerable, right? Yeah, exactly. Um so we will have to rotate uh all the the the the eventually we'll have to rotate all the keys for the sharing transactions of all the dashin customers, which is going to be a painful and long migration as you can imagine because you you need to do it without uh breaking things for your customers and also ensuring backward compatibility for the uh the old versions of Dashlane. But yeah, that's a joke going to be a journey and uh and a complicated one, but it's important to get started for real. And everybody will be doing it. So do you think Google's right? 2030? Uh is that too short, too long? I don't know. They know better, but I mean the the date doesn't matter. Like to your point if uh uh the actors are already harvesting uh the data for the future. Um we know the NSA is yeah. Yeah we need to get started. Yeah. Frederike I really appreciate your time uh and your hard work and I appreciate what you've done in the FIDO Alliance uh and what you've done to make a really impressive uh password manager. Not one of our sponsors, that's okay. We'll we'll forgive you uh Dash . Dashlane's always been uh uh kind of the secret weapon of a lot of uh Mac users at least. Um uh Dashlane.com if you want to uh know more. And uh Frederica Rivin, thank you so much for spending some time with us talking about the rapidly changing security landscape. Thank you very much for having me. Yeah. A real pleasure. Thank you, Frederick. Thank you. We'll have more in just a bit on intelligent machines. Uh yeah, I uh I hope you get mythos soon. Yeah, good luck. One of the problems that uh we're actually trying to find vulnerabilities with the existing models. But even uh Opus uh four post seven sound, you have a limited context and to your point by chaining vulnerabilities, yeah. It's not able to do that. So we're having even with a million a million context token to context windows not you can't do that. Yeah, it's limited success. It's i so it's the context window that makes chaining hard? I guess you'd have to understand the flaw, keep that in your memory, and then work on the next one, but without losing that context. I think we'll probably have to build ourselves uh different agents that are changing themselves to be able to uh I don't know. Or maybe sub agents or yeah, there's gotta be an architecture. Yeah. Do you do you have any idea what they did in Mythos to make that possible? No, but I'm curious to read to to read the technical design when it comes out. Yeah. They haven't even put out a system card, have they? Or have they? I mean they've just shared the results of what they've been doing, but not what's uh not what's under the hood,. Right we don't know much. Thanks a lot. All right, take care. Stay cool. Thank you. Stay cool. He's in New York City. Is it hot? Is it really hot? It's pretty hot. I'm sorry. Bye-bye. Bye . It's uh 8 3 here. What is it in uh Brooklyn? Hot . It's 9 1. Oh, that's awful. And you don't have AC, right? I mean I've got one AC unit in the window behind me. The other one I just because they're both Mede as. That one I replaced last year and forgot to with the recall and forgot The la one in my bedroom I haven't replaced so I can't turn it on, but I did just submit for the recall. So they all got recalled? A significant chunk of Medea U shaped window ACs, which are the best window ACs, in my opinion. Um they got recalled due to mold issues. Oh, that's not good. Did we see this story was just updated, but maybe it came out earlier so you guys saw it. But if not, uh Ber ber just reported that mind blowing growth is about to propel anthropic into its first profitable quarter. Yes, I put it up on the rundown. Let's uh let's talk about that and we will also talk about what looks like an open AI IPO Friday. There's some break in news. We'll get to that. And SpaceX SpaceX filed. SpaceX Monday. Yep. It's gonna be cray cray. We got lots of Google. And then there's this like eight hours worth of Google stuff . All right. Hang on. We'll have more intelligent machines right after this word from our sponsor. Intelligent machines brought to you today by Monarch. I just got a new device. Immediately signed in their Monarch, ' Icause love having that dashboard. Summer's almost here. Time to plan your vacation. Wouldn't it be nice not to worry about whether you can afford it or have some help in saving for it? Good thing Monarch is here to help you organize your finances so you can enjoy your summer and know when your money is taken care of. Monarch. It's the personal finance app that tracks everything. Accounts, investments, savings goals, spending. Get your first year of Monarch core for half off. Just 50 bucks when you use our promo code IM. 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I guess we should talk about the breaking news . Um put three links up at the top of the section. I shall go to the top of your section in that case. Uh NVIDIA having a very big quarter, I guess not much of a surprise there. in first quarter revenue? Up eighty-five percent in the quarter from the year earlier period. Sheesh. They're making they're selling 'em as fast as they can make 'em. Uh and of course this is really the data center piece, right? Uh uh especially according to the Wall Street Journal, the sale of computing hardware, their GPUs as well as other general purpose chi ps, sales of networking hardware get this tripled from a year ago, tripled to fourteen point eight billion dollars. Uh they're gonna do a buyback . Oh that's nice. Said that they would the company intends to return fifty percent of its free cash flow this year to shareholders. Because they can't figure out what to buy with it. Anthropic might have its first profitable quarter thanks to a surge of a hundred thirty percent in revenue. Ten point nine billion in the June quarter. Thank you, agents . Wonder what I think not agents. I think enterprise. I think it's I think it's definitely enterprise. I think it's a combination of enterprise contracts, uh Claude uh Claude bot usage spiking and generally all the things that have been making people mad over the last quarter with anthropic cracking down on usage. Well, and that's one of the things they did. That's why I think it may not be so much agents, because uh unlike openai you can't use your sub your subscription your claude max subscription in an agent you can only use it in claude code you have to buy api tokens so I guess I and maybe it is agents, maybe people say, No, I still wanna use Opus , so I'm gonna pay th through the nose for it. Four point eight billion dollars in sales in the first quarter, it's quarterly revenue now growing faster than Zoom did during the pandemic. Okay, that's a that's a that's a metric. That's a metric. Uh faster than good. It may be a red flag, but well, I think the deal with uh XAI was really, really big in this because they were, I think, very much compute constrained. And having all of a sudden some compute headroom means they can grow like this. They actually are growing faster than Google and Facebook in the run-up to their IPOs. And as I mentioned , it looks like they're heading towards an IPO soon. OpenAI uh we think or the journal thinks may file uh paperwork for its IPO as soon as Friday , SpaceX as soon as June, although I heard uh maybe Monday. Not that I have any connections or anything. I read that somewhere. I wonder, and we know Anthropic wants to go public In in SpaceX uh Musk wrote this. Our mission is to build the systems and technologies necessary to make life multiplanetary, to understand the true nature of the universe, and to extend the light of consciousness to the stars. Oh Lord. Yeah. Or maybe too much K. But anyway, uh I think given this these recent results for anthropic, this would probably be uh pushing them a little closer. So but what happens what what if you have very similar IPOs, SpaceX not really, but still a big one. Well SpaceX is XAI, right? It's an AI, right? Plus um anthropic plus um I guess it just depends how much money is out there for that's what I'm asking. Is there is there does they do they hurt each other? I think not. I think there is a unlimited pile of money, and that many investors will but will hedge their bets and buy all three. You wouldn't invest I'm the wrong guy to ask. But if you invested , each of you, I don't think who's going to win this race. I mean, I think I think that it's wasn't there a report, was it this week that um someone had reported that most of these companies might end up being in the uh like Fortune 1 Yeah. I mean they're already going to be an index fund. So it's going to be kind of a moot point because they're going to have a lot of capital work. Yeah, I do I do I am in uh only mutual funds, only index funds. Um and I'm sure I haven't looked because I don't want to really know that I have a stake in all of them. Yeah, I'm in triple Q, which NASDAQ. Sure, that's NASDAQ. Most of my stuff is um uh in retirement, target retirement funds. So, you know, Vanguard do es a good job with those and I let them handle it. But uh yeah, I'm sure that a lot of it. I don't know. That may make may make you nervous. Let me look. Here's one of the funds I'm in. Eighteen percent of it is in NVIDIA, fifteen percent of it's in Apple. See I don't like it that much is ten percent in Microsoft um and then and then the rest of it is single digits. So that's a technology fund that I'm in. So, you know, yeah, I guess but believe me, I'm not I don't wanna really know and I don't invest that's why I invest in baskets. And yes, I think that'd be the smart thing to do. I don't think there's gonna be a winner. I don't think you're gonna say, Oh yeah, go with open AI. It's going all the way . I think it's just as likely to crash and burn as anybody else. Well SpaceX does have all the juicy government contracts already. Yeah, maybe SpaceX because I mean don't they all want juicy government contracts? No, but SpaceX has the juicy space guard . Nobody has been able to complete compete with them. So maybe if you had to do that you would uh yeah maybe you would uh go with space x xai . I don't know. We're the wrong people to ask. QQQ which is known for tech is nine percent NVIDIA, seven point three percent Apple, so it's much lower. I think app I think NVIDIA is probably a good bet. But buy the guy who's selling the picks and shovels, not the gold miner. There is new competition, but it does take time to get that comp etition up and running. Yeah. Uh but if anything happens to Taiwan, we're all bets are off. Yes. The SpaceX um this just in from Wired. The SpaceX IPO filing reveals that Anthropic is paying fifteen billion dollars a year to access their data centers. Oh yeah, he has filed. He filed just now. NASDAQ S PCX . So uh the five yeah boy this is moving fast. Hard to keep hard to keep track. They're targeting seventy-five billion dollars, which would give them a valuation of more than two trillion . Um SPCX . They filed confidentially for the listing uh but it is now public back in April. No , and people are trolling through it. What are they finding ? Besides Musk's quotes. Goldman Sachs Margins Stanley leading the IPO . Uh Bank of America Citigroup and J.P. Morgan Chase also working on the deal . Uh formal marketing when SpaceX will disclose the proposed terms of the share sale is expended to be expected to begin as early as June 4th. Pricing will be June 11th. This is from Sean O' Kain at uh TechCrunch. Says big revenue from Starlink, more than space launch and AI combined. Musk is king will have majority voting control post IPO, thirty six pages of risk factors. Which is a lot of pages of risk factors for someone who hasn't read an IPO doc before. Wow. Is that that's more than normal? Yeah. I think every page just says Musk. Musk is a big risk rix factor . Well, uh I mean I don't normally spend a lot of time on the finance side of this because uh except to to the degree it tells you a little bit about what I mean this is just fascinating because these documents when you're filing to go public like this you have to include all material information about the business. And you there are legal consequences if you don't include that information in your public filing documents. So it allows the public for the first time ever to get a look inside one of the a really opaque private company like SpaceX. True that Um Let's talk about Google I.O. Yeah. Something a little more uh concrete. Or is it? This is the problem I always have with Google I.O. They announce many things. Many of them never happen. Um you don't know when they're gonna ship a lot of this stuff. Some of it did ship. Gemini three five flas h shipped. I thought I wasn't gonna get it again. I was starting to have a a a workspace fit. I just had to restart my Chromebook. Oh. Good. And you may remember, Jeff, uh I got so excited during Google I.O., I decided to get that same Chromebook. Well, you already got it. Yeah, oh yeah, it came today. Stickers on it already. Uh well, you gotta immediately cover up the Lenovo name and the Chromebook name so nobody will know it's not a MacBook. Uh you got drummed out of the core. Well, I'm really curious, you know, how much I can do without uh a a real operating system with just basically a browser. And I suspect quite a bit. Yes, they have B2B, yes, they have vibe coding, yes, they can catch up with the others, but they're gonna make AI ready for the masses. And it is probably how most people will experience it. I guess Microsoft Copilot, maybe a lot of Windows users out there. Uh Apple being laggard in AI, I mean uh I don't think anybody with an iPhone thinks they have much AI in their iPhone. Uh just how I like it. Well, but that's gonna change in two three weeks. Uh I mean all of my friends that have uh my friends that have Android phones often complain whenever they send me like an image like, oh I'm so sorry for the AI upscaling. I can't turn it off. Oh, interesting. Interesting . I'm not sure which sort of Android device they have, but that I think is this is so I want to hear you guys' full report on IO. Um but one of the top line numbers I saw floating around is that um Google mentioned that I think they have now nine hundred million daily active or monthly active users for Gemini. But I think that that we were just talking about something on this uh topic at my job actually, just 'cause some colleagues were like, Oh my God, now in Google Docs there's no way to get rid of this big bo box at the bottom that keeps asking you to prompt Gemini and it's so annoying. And I'm like, oh there is. You have to go and turn it off for every single document. And it still doesn't stop every time you type a line from Gemini from triggering. And I bet that that's partially where this I bet that some part of stuff like that is being included in these uh monthly active user numbers. The fact that Google has made it impossible to turn off Gemini in its products. What do you think, Jeff? Yeah, I think it's fair, but I also think it's getting a lot of use on its own merits. Uh, because it's also easy to get it's easy to get Gemini. You you I'm using it more and more when I finally fought to get I didn't I didn't fight a winning battle, but after I finally succeeded in getting Gemini in my browser, I'm using it a lot more by choice . Um I'm using it to summarize articles and that kind of stuff all the time. So just on a on a on a fairly casual basis, my use has increased because it's so available. How do you find it? I find it generally good, but I'm not asking at complicated things. I'm not at the point yet. It's what I'm really interested in when we get to Spark and the other things that was announced yesterday, is that I I'm really interested this to get the vibe coding without um command line and Yeah, but I gotta install Cloud on a machine. I have a Chromebook, so I can't right I can do it on the Mac, but I don't have the Mac with me all day. So um but I've done this on purpose. I really y you you guys are the nerdier on this stuff. And what interests me is that retail level of AI. And will there be uptake on that? Will if people find it useful or not? Um, Claude is magnificent and powerful and doing great things. But what's made anthropic so successful is profit able is B2B. Uh OpenAI is trailing them and trying to catch up with B2B. Google is the B2C company, and Google has me. It has my email, it has my files, it has everything else about me. So it's also better positioned to be that. Both because it presents AI and because it can incorporate my data into it. The other interesting thing that I I I I wonder about they I didn't really address yesterday was how much context can I give Gemini ? Ongoing persistent context. Yeah, this is always the same. Yeah, do they do they have Gemini MD . You mean like a markdown file that has memory? Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure they do. But I mean is it as simple as command ? This is why you want to use a command line interface versus uh But you can't do that if you're Jeff and you're you live a Chromebook centric life. Does it? Oh yeah. I thought that was kind of the whole point is that you don't mess around with stuff. It's browser based only. No, no, it's not a terminal. Your mother chooses to do a Chrome. If she were going to do AI would not be going to terminal. I do think that uh there is I I think that enterpr I mean obviously we're at a stage now where m I guess I I was gonna say the average person has probably already chosen an AI service they like, but that's incredibly out of touch. The average person probably has not chosen an AI system that they like because they probably are not using one actively on a daily basis. We're talking about the average consumer. But I do think that a way that the average person is going to get to that will be through whatever enterprise contact their work has, if they do have something like that. Or it will be through something like Google integration into products or Apple prompting them to select a model to install. It's Amazon's Echo , it's Siri , it's uh and it's it's Google Voice. I mean those are the Well I don't think those I think I think shopping is going to be a a more more reliable path into this. Well that's the Leo yesterday really emphasized this that that Google which was once was the company that said we want to get you in and out as soon as possible, we want to take you to the web. Now Google wants the fence around you. They want to keep you. And so they demonstrated yesterday buying for Best Buy without ever going to Best Buy. I honestly think the most consequential announcement they make is the it made is the change to search. I understand Google it was very much threatened by perplexity and that kind of search where people were doing AI-based search and and seemed to prefer it. And Google did that they dipped a toe in with the AI assist and stuff like that. But really uh what they're saying now is when you do a search, uh you're not gonna get a list of links. You're going to get an answer. You're going to get a graph. You're going to get a chart. You're going to get an illustration. We are going to keep you in Google. Google has become more like Perplexity or ChatGPT. It has and that is going to be the primary way people see and use Google. Unless they rebel against it, it'll be interesting. But we really don't have a choice. So when you go to Google.com now or or search in your browser, you're gonna get this kind of new kind of searching. Can I turn on AI mode? I mean let's search for let's see. Um what is it what was it? Uh how how does a black hole form ? Um so there are links to next. So now go back and do the same one. Or does it uh go in AI mode? Well but I think this is the AI overview is is on AI mode. Okay, let's yeah I'm sure it would. Let's go to the code there. You got it right there. Uh supercharged search with personal intelligence and now it's got things floating around. Floating around Leo. Yeah. Connect these. Yeah, whatever. Yeah, I choose. Why are no Leo? Don't connect them all I'm connecting everything. Live love all connected. I welcome my new master Paris. Okay, this is what they were demonstrating. Mm-hmm. Which is what a school kid's gonna get. Notice no links at all. It says licensed by Google. From whom? That's really interesting. Huh. There's a there's a little link. There's a little link up at the top above the above. Yeah. Well if I click the link no it just makes it big. No, no, that's it. Click the link above that, the paragraph above it. The end of the paragraph. And and there. Ah. Okay. Wikipedia, Earth Sky, Test Book, Study Smarter UK and NBC News. Yeah, that is interesting that the inline image is licensed from Google because I bet if this is going to be the way that they're responding to all search results, that it's basically its own website, you can't be stealing other people's copies. Yeah uh your images. Images at the very least. But they are burying it, aren't they? I mean they are I mean even with these links, they're burying it. Well notice that the one thing they're not burying is images that are sourced because we have very strong copyright protection on images in this country. Although I imagine that in some cases these will be generated by nano banana, probably not fast enough for Google to No, that's a point. Eventually. I just think this is a big big shift uh away from the list of links to um uh uh basically a Google but they had I think they had to do it. I had to do it. Yeah this is this was their path to the I mean the g this is their primary interface and they had to incorporate it there. They were going to lose it. They really were going to lose it. They still have an I'm feeling lucky button. Try that. Oh I got Google Trends it shifted when I let me go back to the big G . Wait a minute. Oh, I'm feeling mindful. I'm feeling lucky. Oh . Doodley . Well does it stay? Is this a game we're playing here? Let's see. Uh running sho es . Okay, now I'm feeling lucky . So it pulled me to a Renner's World Article. Yeah, okay. Which I'm feeling lucky. That's an old fashioned Google function. Yeah, that's what it used to do, which is pick a website for me. Sorry. Um hm. Oh well let's see what running shoes with that I'm feeling lucky. I mean this isn't instantaneous. This isn't overnight. Okay, this is kind of Google shopping thing. And that's by the way, by the the next thing they want to do is this universal shopping interface where you don't ever leave Google. Okay . Jeff's trying to get it some shopping done during burning. I don't blame you. You know, you I do have flat feet. I'm sure you like knowing that. Connect checking, connect. Oh, it's going through my it's going through my uh see now it thinks I have flat feet sorry thanks Jeff so if you ask does it have memory oh yeah it has memory um oh look at the top right of the screen. There's a little l uh uh AI Leo there. No, that's that's just the profile picture. Oh it is. Oh I thought it was for the AI. I mean it is AI generated, but it's just my profile. But it's AI generated m at his behest. Okay, yes. You know, dot right picture. Um Okay. And now the other thing is of course they're gonna get vendors to buy into this UCP thing because this is the way you're gonna show up. You're people aren't gonna go to Dick's sporting goods and shirt search for trainers. They're gonna they're gonna do this and you better show up in this uh search result. It's a big way for Google to make money. It's a good way for them to defend themselves. The other thing I found really so that I think was the most consequential announcement is the is the really dramatic change to Google search, which they've been pushing for for a long time. This the other thing I thought was interesting, but only as an AI user, I don't know other people, is you know, rem remember that this this is the year of OpenClaw of the Agent, and Google hasn't really been a big player in this, so they announced Spark, which is an agent for the rest of us, an easy-to-use agent. That does and this is where you get memory Paris to answer your question. Uh it also is where you get background tasks. I'd just like to say briefly to interrupt. I shouldn't be surprised, but I am both surprised and frustrated that Google has introduced another thing that has a different name for the same thing. It's the most Googly Well it it it doesn't just name everything copilot. It adds the word copilot into names of things where it c the word copilot should not be. Oh Ant Pruitt is in the Discord chat and he's asking I think a question we probably assume everybody knows what we mean when we say token. Token is the basic unit of inference of intelligence. So So your uh AI doesn't think in words or individual numbers or even bits and bytes, it thinks in tokens, which are often number uh number of words. When you uh give it a prompt, it takes that, tokenizes it, and sends it off to the inference engine. So that's tokens in , and then it responds to you in what looks like English, but really what it's done is it's taken the tokens you've sent it, run it through the LLM, which has all these weights, and produced a series of tokens, not words, but like words, might be more than one word, might be a word and a half, but a series of tokens which then are translated into English on your screen, that's tokens out. If you have a subscription, they're not counting the tokens. Well they c actually they kind of are. If you use too many of them, they'll say you gotta take a break now. You can't use any more until you know eleven p.m. on Friday. You probably some people have seen that if they've got a subscription. Um you get a a limit to a number of hours, usually a five hour window, and then also to a week and in some cases a month. So you can use up your token allotment even with a subscription. But what they really want almost everybody wants you to do now is pay by the token. And so uh by the way, uh Gemini Flash three five is expensive. Um it is it is not an inexpensive and the pricing when you talk about using it is a token pricing. Let me see if I can find their token pricing on the other. And and the the if you if you listen as I do religiously to Jensen Wong uh keynotes, uh it's an economy of tokens. And his goal is to produce more tokens at less cost and become ever more efficient. That's the thing that that's the value that he's trying to build for his clients. So even if you've already bought his chips, his next version of his software will make it more efficient so that you get more tokens for less cost. And the cost uh to the company is energy. Oh is your is your infrastructure and your energy, your electricity bill. Because to us as users is what they choose to pass on to us and how they do that. But it's all an economy of tokens. So uh flas h , the new uh three point five flash is a dollar fifty per million tokens, which sounds cheap, but it's very easy to that's tokens in to use up that the output price is any of the any of the things you built Leo or how many tokens it added up to in total? Do you have any questions? Code for four or five hours in a day, it will have cost me a dollar or two. Which is how many tokens? Oh, tens of thousands probably. I don't know. Okay, so just not a million. Uh yeah, you know, because I work I don't really use APIs ever, I use um sub s. I have a Claude subs I have subscriptions for all of these . Let me see. I have a Claude usage uh app. Actually I can go to the Claude uh web site and find that. I have a big storm coming over, so if I disappear, the generator will come on and I'll come back. Well and I have all the doors and windows open because it's hot here and you might be hearing Lisa talking on the phone in the background because her office is just uh next door. Yell hi Lisa. She's on the phone. The chat here is it too. I know. I apologize. It's okay. It's too hot. I can't Schwitz. I can't Schwitz. It's not like credits because it's directly tied to the representation that AI uses for the information you're giving it, the prompts you're giving it, and the information it's giving you back. So you're paying directly for how much of the AI you're using. It's measured in tokens. And that's why we cut talk about tokens maxing, because some companies foolishly forgetting the adage that you uh get whatever you measure, right? Right. Companies were uh you know, foolishly in the past saying, how many lines of code did you write today? That's not a good way to measure productivity. And then they said, Well how many tokens did you use? And they even had leaderboards of people who use the most tokens, which is roughly a measurement of how much AI uh you used. Um I'm I trying to find my usage. Anyway . So uh and you oh yes, that's a good point Darren Oaky is making is not merely what you're typing. If for instance, as Paris and I did, we ingested this physics of filter coffee book into our AIs, uh, that might be several hundred thousand tokens worth of uh data. So that's another way you use tokens. Is you know, very often when I'm coding, I will say, well, here's a GitHub repo I want you to look at and get some I don't know what my usage is, but I'm gonna go close the door because Lisa is pretty loud. Talk amongst yourselves. No, it's her her dulcet tones. We we enjoy it. I mean I think it might be kind of annoying to people who are probably listening to this as an audio uh format. So yeah, we probably should be able to turn it into a sauna Leo. I'm uh looking at the SpaceX IPO which all of the reporters of the world are currently pouring through right now. It's it's a real Barbenheimer moment for this to drop at the same time as Nvidia earnings. And one of the things listed in the risk factors is that it has a spicy and unhinged mode on Grok . But it also has in its risk factors a note that advertisers generally do not have long-term commitments to the X platform and may reduce or discontinue their advertising spending for a variety of reasons outside of our control. Uh well he's a he is a risk factor . Yeah, they're actually he's mentioned a lot. Let's see. Musk, musk, musk, musk . Mostly about his stock, yeah. One of the risks is conflicts of interest could arise in the future between us on the one hand and Mr. Musk or and the entities owned or affiliated by him on the other hand . Uh yeah, there's a whole section about how uh we don't know what business activities Elon Musk may be doing, and they may differ than the things that are best for our business. Oh there's another, yeah . We are highly dependent on the continued services of mister Musk and other key personnel and the loss or reduced involvement of him or one or more of them could affect our ability to execute our business strategy . For instance, Mr. Musk currently also Okay, can we just have a second for this sentence? For instance, Mr. Musk currently serves as techno king and chief executive officer of Tesla and is evolved involved in other emerging technology venture ventures such as NeuroLink and the Boring Company. Mr. Musk has also previously served as senior advisor to the president of the United States. . That is definitely a risk factor. Yes . I think it's uh certainly Tesla sales. Techno King. Should I control F for Techno King ? Yes, if Techno King is mentioned more. And then Ketamine . Techno King is mentioned twice else . Mr. Musk is also the Techno King of Tesla . Yes. Yes . Uh you know. You need a new business card, Leo. You are a techno king. I am the techno king. Lisa's the Techno Queen. I thought Chief Twit was pretty clever. But uh then then Elon stole it briefly . And I lost uh lost interest. Alright, let me see if I'm getting okay, here's my usage on uh chat gt gpt well this is may spend zero dollars okay um uh that's because i want a subscription plan so i can't I wanna know what uh I guess I can't um hmm . I've used it a lot. It's my primary um model for my uh agent, quickie . Not the name I gave it . All right, well I mean it's like the early days of of of of the internet and long distance phone calling. Right. We used to have the front a clock on us. Right. In our minds. And then our own. Yep. I have no concept of that. It was so bad that you would start the conversation. I'm calling long distance, so I'm gonna make this quick . Because you were getting billed by the minute. And it was not it, might have been a a buck minute in some cases. It was expensive or more. Or was a way to get off a phone call. Oh, this is costing you a fortune. I think we should. I mean, actually, I do recall like that with calls abroad . Yeah, yeah, for Todd, right? Not anymore though, right? I mean I Skype can legitimately in recent yeah like this is the thing. I f for some reason still had it in my head that if I didn't have a right setting turned on my cell phone planet, I was calling someone in France or somet Yep . And I so Mom's office used to be about two miles away from here. So you don't know what a collect call is, Paris? I know what a collect call is. She wasn't bored yesterday, just the day before that. But we used to use collect calls as a messenger, like you the username as the message, and then did they just reject the call? We used to do that all the time. Oh yeah, right, because that was a signal. I will call you collect . Don't accept that's a signal that I got home alright. Yeah, and when they ask you what your name is. Remember that Benito? Wow. And when they ask you what your name is, it's your message. You don't leave your name. You leave your message. The mess my name be me. Uh buy me a loaf of bread on your way home. That's your name? Do you remember calling four one one for information, Paris? I do, yeah. Okay, good. You remember telephone calling? Remember Goog 411? No, what is that? That Google for a while supplanted 411 from the phone company with their own Google 411. Awful name. Yeah, but it then they discontinued it. It turned out the only reason they did it is they wanted to capture a lot of voice samples so they have better voice synthesis. Oh boy. I don't think they really hid that. Uh what else? So there's a new uh Gemini Omni any to any model, which right now only does video, but eventually we'll do anything text picture video to anything text picture video . So I have been seeing some people say, you know, the benchmarks for Gemini Flash aren't very good. It is overpriced for what you're getting . Uh so uh I w I yesterday I think Jeff we were kind of in the reality distortion field of the as is often the case with these keynotes when it's all sounds very exciting. But even then, I you know I did want to issue the caution that Google as often shows these amazing things that never come out. For instance, a year a go, you may remember Dieter Bone, a former uh Verge uh technology reporter who went to work for Google showing off Google glasses. Well, Jason Howell today said this is the third year they've shown off Google Glass before it's for sale. So uh someday this now they say this year, later this year. I I do think that all of the companies are going to release basically meta-rayban versions. I was fascinated that the consumer coverage in in in major press was led with the glasses. Yeah, that's a product. I mean changing search is a much bigger story. I think it's the big story, yeah. But well that's why you listen to this show as opposed to Exactly. But this is this is gonna be I think uh it's very clear. It's funny Google called these audio glasses, even though it has two cameras prominently right on the front of it. They don't want you to think about the cameras. Uh uh and they said, Oh, but but you'll know, you'll see the cameras, they'll be lights. These are the meta ray bands, but the Googles look very similar. Uh they have Warby Parker and what was it? Gentle Giant, some weird yeah, gentle I want to see. Oh, could you bring this? I want to see Paris' fashion view of the gentle giant ones. Oh yeah, because they were more for ladies the ladies. I want to see if they were stylist. These are part of their XR. They're also gonna have Samsung uh make this . We'll just go to Google search for Google Glass. Right there's this thing called search Leon. Hands on. Oh yeah, Wired had a big hands on with these uh glasses. Let me see if I could You know, Kondi I pay for Wired, but y you'd never knew ' its tr I truly had the exact same issue fifteen minutes ago. This is me with New York magazine as well. I'm literally never able to use my subscription. Yes. Well you can soon c soon complained to James Murdoch. He bought New York magazine as well as the rest of uh or at least half much of the rest of much of box. If you're someone out they did not by the verge, which is being left with the bunch of different properties. But they did buy Vox Podcast the Vox Podcast Network, which includes the Ver geCast and Decoder. So are those going to the dat to not Daddy Murdoch. Are those going to Sun Murdoch? Baby Murdock. Or are they s are they staying with the unnamed company formerly known as Vox? Well there's a lot of money in the podcast business, and uh particularly in the Kara Swisher uh podcast, is that decoder? No, that's that's a different podcast. Decoder is Neil Eye Patel. And and VergeCast is David Pierce. But the I think the VergeCast, if it's not attached to the Verge, has no value at all because it's just basically a rehash of the Verge stories. Uh decoder is Neli, and Neli is very associated with the Verge. I don't know. That's interesting. Show that was the most valuable part of Vox was its podcast business. Who knew? Podcasts. Yeah. I should have gotten into that long ago. Here's the gentle monsters. Maybe James will keep buying, Leo He's not gonna buy twit. Uh these are this is this is for uh I think the lake. I mean do those have cameras in them? Yeah. Right here. I can't I guess I don't have good contrast on my monitor right now. Yeah, no, those are just a really hot sunglass uh I mean yes, this will make women more likely to wear the sunglasses. From CNET will make men much less likely to wear these glasses. They really chose up. So the idea though is very much like the Metas, except it's attached to Google and Google 's uh uh got much more information about you. They have a phone, uh which Meta does not have, and of course uh they have your photos and all of that stuff. So it'd probably be more useful than the Meta. But functionality, I don't think is gonna be that different. And it's very interesting they call them audio glasses. I thought that was really uh Well, I think it's because the average normie really does seem to use them for audio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's the what that's the input you get from it. That's what you get from it is audio. You can take pictures but you can't see it. Exactly. Exactly. That's a good point. You can see them on your own. That's the devil's in the details on that. That's a hard thing to do, well uh there is no name, by the way, yet for Google's intelligent eyewear . Uh this will be up to the individual manufacturers. It isn't Google IO . I They aren't just Googles? There should just be Googles. Googles. Oh, they should. I'm wearing my Google Gogs. We shouldn't be saying these ideas out loud. We should be pitching They also haven't acknowledged that the operating system in the Google Book is aluminium, or they haven't named it if it's not. They haven't named it. They say yeah. They say it won't be aluminium. They've definitely said that. Yeah. So that's and then that's the question because I did go out and buy an old Chromebook. Uh this is the the one you have, it's widely accepted as the best Chromebook . Uh Chromebook Ultra with the um Media Tech Companio process. No fan. Yay. It it's actually a really nice laptop. It's got an old Led screen. It's not just eight hundred fifty bucks. But the original the the the Pixelbooks back in the back day were eleven hundred dollars. Yeah. Yeah. So the the question is uh and we don't know whether the new Google OS will go on here. They say it will on some. If it doesn't on this one, I'd be it'd be a good one. Yeah, that's the top of the line. How much ramp I don't care. I think maybe the reason to buy it is 'cause you want the original Chromebook, not this Android based . Yeah, I'm not I'm not convinced they're gonna get rid of Chrome OS. Let's take a little break. Come back with uh more. You are watching Intelligent Machines with Paris Martineau of Consumer Reports, Jeff Jarvis, the author of Hot. You know what, Leo? Leo, I I I had to admit to Craig last week that we didn't play his theme and he was not happy. Oh, ladies and gentlemen, I give you Craig I'm sorry, Jeff Jarvis, the Emeritus Professor of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Graduate School Training University of New York . There you go, Craig. Is Craig uh doing any uh any vibe coding? If he is, we can have him on. I don't know. That's a good question. I'll ask him. Yeah, ask him. Ask him if he's recreating Craigslist with the help of Claude. It would be interesting. Ant says thank you. Now there's a balance in the force. Thank you. This episode of Intelligent Machines is brought to you by Z scaler, the world's largest cloud security platform, as we all know, and I think accept the potential rewards of AI these days, too great to ignore. You gotta consider it. But you also should consider the risks, loss of sensitive data at andtacks against enterprise managed AI, generative AI, also increases opportunities for threat actors, helping them to rapidly create phishing lures, write malicious code, automate data extraction. Did you know, there were 1.3 million instances of social security numbers leaked to AI applications last year. Millions of violations through ChatGPT, Microsoft Copilot. It's time for a modern approach with Zscaler Zero Trust Plus AI. With Zero Trust Plus AI, it removes your attack surface, it secures your data everywhere, it safeguards your use of public and private AI. 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That's zscaler .com slash security . We thank him so much for the support of intelligent machines . All right, well I I I guess that's I mean there's lots to be said about Google I.O. It was very interesting. Watch the uh coverage we did of the keynote if you're in the club. We have that on the TwitPlus feed. Uh this the other shoe will drop June 8th because of course Apple has admitted it's funny, Google didn't say anything about it at Google I.O., but they will be Apple will be using Gemini, presumably the latest Gemini three five flash, uh for Siri running on their own servers. Offer all of its functions on Siri? Is that what Apple's gonna want or not want? That's the question. What Google's gonna want or not want. Right. Um and and is we'll find out. Apple has a lot uh splaining to do come June 8th. It's just really unclear uh what what uh Apple can do to participate. Right now Apple is, you know, a a parody with everything else where you just put whatever AI you want on it . Just as you would anywhere else. I mean Android I guess has built in Gemini connectivity, but what's the difference if you you know put chat GPT on here and attach it to your action button? You're still it's very similar experience. So I don't I mean do you guys think that Apple should be pouring all of its money and resources into trying to compete no with the activ ity I think I think that this is probably the smart I think that most but but like we've talked about in the show before, there's probably not gonna be a wide range of true winners from the Zay Boom when we're talking about in a period of like decades . Uh i I think it would make sense uh if you're at uh if you're a bit behind like Apple is at this point to just kind of cut your losses and make sure that you are the best at integrating whatever ends up winning. You you raise a really interesting angle here, Paris, because when Apple failed at selling advertising, they turned that bug into a feature and said, Oh, we're the privacy company. Right. Because they had nothing to do with with your data, right? They did. They could they could turn around right now, given commencement speeches, and say we're the un-AI phone. The real problem is that the audience for this is not its users, but Wall Street. And Wall Street will punish Apple. They already have punished App le if they don't have an AI strategy. And uh Apple stock value is important to Apple, that's how they attract talent. That's how they reward talent and their own executives. So I think they're kind of compelled to do something. I I agree with you . All they have to really say is we're the best platform for AI. Look how well they're selling Mac minis and Mac Studios because people say, Yeah, I want to run my open claw on a on a Mac. That's all they have to do. They'll sell plenty of iPhones if they just say we're the best platform for whatever AI you want to use or no ice. I think that's a smart way to do it. Yeah, I mean I think that that's definitely I I think if we're talking, you know, Galaxy Brain PR move here, the move is to be like, we aren't we're the company of giving you control over whatever you want to do with AI. Perfect. If you wanna hook up seven different open claw agents and uh somehow connect your phone to your biohacking system, go for it. If you say screw AI, I don't want anything near me. Here's a button you can press, it turns it all off. It's a no-way integrated any of your stuff. And every option in between. Are you surprised by all the booze that people like Eric Schmidt. We s we showed one last week and then it had more happened this week. Eric Schmidt got booed at a college commencement because he said the word AI. Are you surprised that people uh young people are you're you're closer to them than Jeff and I are are Aaron Powell I mean I think it helps remind me how much doing this podcast every week uh warps my sense of reality because had you asked me this three six months ago, I would have gone a course every single college commencement suite if someone mentions AI, they're going to get boos and jeers because that's the sort of perspective I hear from anyone within a decade of my age on either way. But I I do think there's something about being constantly surrounded by the segment of the population that is all in on AI that makes me makes you forget that a little bit. But what we're seeing in these college commencement uh incidents is is that there is uh a lot of hostile both downright host ility as well as just complete dismissal of the argument that this is something to be celebrated. And I think that's a worthwhile thing to take note of. I have to point out that all the stats say that these college kids got through college using the usage is going on. Well this is this is the problem with opinion polls too. It's a media narrative that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy in the poll. It's the right answer to give is I I don't think that's true. I think that people hated AI independently before people. They hate the AI boys. But they're like being able to hit their papers double. No, I think that the people that are booing in these things, I mean, sure I gu,ess uh a fairment of them are maybe being hypocrites and using it it reminds me of um a story I did during the pandemic actually about Amazon. That uh this was during a time where polls were coming out that you know Gen Z and Gen Alpha overwhelmingly hated Amazon, but I interviewed a bunch of Gen Z and Gen Alpha people and like, yeah, we absolutely hate Amazon and Amazon delivery, but yes, I still order all my stuff from Amazon because it's the only way to get stuff during the pandemic. I think that people can hate products and still feel compelled to use them by market forces. Aaron Powell Do they hate the tool more or capitalism more? Is AI right now to them, you know, the the depth of capitalism? Aaron Powell I think it's probably that. But I think they also hate the tool because uh the common narrative I think most AI critics, especially young people, are pushing, is that AI is basically robbing us of creativity, both uh like from uh like production creativity as well as it is literally stealing the creative works of other artists. Well let me give you a couple of stories from the Wall Street Journal. A grades are suddenly everywhere since employees to sign up size up graduates because everybody's using AI and it and it's working I don't think I I don't think I believe this. Harvard University believes it. Harvard faculty just voted to make sure that no but no n more than 16% uh no what was it? What's the percentage of people get A's ? A Harvard A grade will now tell people. This has been something that's been happening for decades. Oh 30 centuries actually. So I tweeted this and I said, logically, if Harvard gets the best students there are, then we get their goal should be that every one of them gets A's. Uh and then somebody put up a quote uh on on Blue Sky back to me with a quote from eighteen ninety something, complaining about grade inflation at Harvard. Like grade inflation and colleges reacting to it has been a problem for as long as grades have been a thing. Or at least curves exist. I was about to say I think that it's I mean, I haven't read the article that you're talking about and I can't find it in the rundown, no matter how many times I search grades, inflation, and Harvard. But I It's not in the rundown because I pulled it up as we started talking about this, but it's from the Orl ando Sentinel, your favorite newspaper. I mean, my do they say in it that it's specifically in response to AI, or is that a logical leap that hardly? Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences announced today it would limit the number of A grades awarded to undergraduates by faculty vote the, move comes after top grades became so common that some Harvard faculty argued they no longer reliably distinguished exceptional work. In recent years, we're in the A range . That's why you're grade on the curve. The grade says you're uh the best. But that's also saying some some number of you must fail. That's that's awful. That's not that's not education. No, you don't have to fail. No, no, no but you could say okay so you have a pool of screen. This article says nothing about AI , though . Is the thing is this has been a thing that's been an issue at competitive schools forever because like if everybody is passing if everybody is getting almost all the test questions correct, then you're grading on a curve and shifting the curve downwards that you have less A's. Yes, that's a complicated and thorny issue that requires a lot of things to work out, but it we don't know that this is specifically in relation to A aron Powell I grew up in an era where colleges were doing pass fail because they didn't have the technology. They hadn't figured out those let all the letters yet, right? It was too many letters. Uh well that's because in the sixties we were we were mean sons of bitches. They were scared of us. In uh well I I when I w we moved to California, my dad was teaching at UC Santa Cruz very famously. They were one of the first to do this pass fail grading because they were all hippies. Mm-hmm. Uh I was just saying pass fail is what you would turn on at NYU if you uh realized you were gonna get a bad grade in a class and instead just wanted to hide it and not do anywhere. Like I turned one of my classes past fail whenever I after my freshman first semester. I thought I going into college, I was like, I'm gonna do pre-med neuroscience, I'm gonna be a doctor. And then we was like, oh no no,, chemistry is not for me. It's a bad idea. And so I think I pass failed ortho. I pass failed ortho and uh never went to another class again because I figured out mathematically I wouldn't fail. I suspect they say it's a thorny the reason for it is a thorny topic. Beginning in fall the fall semester , uh instructors at Harvard College will be allowed to ward A grades to no more than twenty percent uh of the students in class plus four. I don't know what the plus four means. It means math. You gotta figure out twenty percent of the students. No donors kids. But if it were in a math class and everybody gets a hundred percent answers on everything, how do you what do you do? Well then the pressure will come down on the professor to be meaner and and writing harder, harder tests. Other letter grades, including A- will not be subjected to a limit. I I I understand that what I mean it depends what you think of grade is for. If a grade is for a future employer to judge whether you're the best in that case. They don't care. No, it looks at no employer has ever asked me for my undergraduate degree or anything. From an employer's point of view, a good GPA is less impressive than ever. As a result, employers this by the way is from futurism. As a result, employers uh have oh, I just lost it. What have they done? No one knows. Employers have raised their minimum GPA requirements leaving students who actually learn without an AI's help in an utterly unfair position. Another reason to hate it, you didn't want to use AI but you were forced to in order to get a job. The percentage of employers in the Careers website handshake that required a minimum GPA of three point five jumped to nearly twenty-five percent this year from nine percent in twenty twenty. That's from the Wall Street Journal . Anyway, I think this is probably the big issue when it comes to the students booing AI is that they're just being told constantly by everybody that AI is taking their jobs and they're never gonna find a job. And these big companies are evil and awful, they're run by horrible men. Um , it's a thousand people today. It exists, so they will never get a job. That's sort of the narrative that's being pushed. Right. Yeah . I don't think that's true. By the AI companies, mind you. Right. Yeah. Exactly. That's the that's the perverse PR that they do. Right. Um let's pause. And then a word from the Pope. You're watching Intelligent Machines, Jeff Jarvis, Paris Martino, I'm your humble host, Leo Pickles Laporte. I I need a pick. The pe ona my hat stands for pickles. I want you to call me from now on. I want you to call me pickles. Okay? Okay . I don't know where that came from. Can uh someone in the chat make uh AI Slop image of the three of us ex ideally exactly in the outfits we're wearing right now, but we're just pickles with faces on them. Ooh . Ooh That's a prompt. Nano banana be could also stands for prompt. The P stands for prompt and pickles. And Paris. It also stands for possibil ities. Infinite possibilities. Uh Darren Oki says the re who is our AI fanatic, a former coder who no longer codes, he says the reality is AI will take a lot of jobs. It scares me because I have two kids about to enter the job market. I'm glad I don't have kids entering the job. Well, Darren, you're gonna have to open the deli. The pickle deli. You're right. The pickle deli. They'll be waiting tables. Yep. They'll be pickling cucumbers. I actually uh gave Henry a bunch of money to uh seed capital for the his pickle business. Which which failed. So I'm now out. Would you say it soured? It soured . Did you get to invest in restaurant? Nothing that actually worked . He didn't oh he didn't need investors for that . He needed investors for the pickle business. How about the salt business? Did that also uh No, I think he's still selling salt, but really the sandwiches are clearly the best seller. Didn't get to invest in that . All right. Our show today brought to you by Exbo X bo W AI has changed the pace of everything. I mean, that's that's the most notable thing is how fast stuff is happening from how software develops to how it gets intact. Engineering teams have to move faster than ever. They're creating more and more applications. Security just can't keep up. We still need pen testers. We still need pen test ing. It's one of the most trusted ways to understand real exploitable risks. But in an AI driven world, human pen testers can become a bottleneck. Security teams are forced to choose between slowing down development to stay secure or moving fast and accepting gaps in coverage. Well, Expo elimin ates that trade-off. This is so cool. Expo , XBOW is an autonomous offensive security platform that runs continuous AI-driven pen testing, mirroring real-world attacks. Expo doesn't just and I love it that it's continuous, right? Expo doesn't just scan for vulnerabilities, it discovers, exploits, it validates them. So you're only dealing with issues that actually matter. That means dramatically fewer false positives and a clear view into real attack paths. With Expo, tests run in hours, not weeks. You get complete visibility into how an attacker would move through your systems and the ability to uncover issues that traditional tools miss, including zero days and novel attack paths. Expo's results speak for themselves. Application Security Leader of CESNAM.cc says quote Even right now, after one year, I don't know any other company that is at least close to Expo in terms of agentic pen testing. The result is predictable cost, consistent quality, and stronger security without slowing down your engineers. Expo helps Funded by the team behind Microsoft Copilot, already trusted by companies ranging from fast-growing startups to Fortune 500 enterprises, Expo is quickly becoming a mission critical layer in modern security stacks. You want to know more? Very simple. Go to expo.com, start your pen test today. That's expo .com. XBO W. Like bow and arrow. Expo . com . We thank him so much for supporting intelligent machines. Present tale of two pickle prompts. We have competing pickles. Um I don't know. We're gonna have to let the uh let the audience vote. I think there's an answer. Here's one from Brand roid, which involves me with face tats. And not as a pickle. Well I'm a pickle color . But I but the pickle by all three of you are in various stages of metamorphosis . Yeah, Jeff is halfway between a pickle and his chair. I'm halfway between a pickle and my gingham shirt. And Leo is not really is more goblin esque than pickle like. But I think it's fun. And then we should go up and look at a really good pickle one from Pretty Fly for a Sis Sky. This is much more pickly . These are pickles with googly eyes. Our eyes are haunting , but it fits the bill. It uh achieves exactly what we asked for. These win Ant Aunt Pruitt's seal of disapproval. Which I'm glad is still here . Thank you, Aunt. Ooh, no, thank you, sir, he says . By the way, that is one of the benefits of joining Club Twit. You get access to Aunt Pruitt's seal of disapproval to be used at any time . I think you can use it on any server, not just our server. Which is cool . Pope Leo , who um uh chose the name No rel ation . We should mention no relation. Chose the name Leo though because of his predecessor, Leo the Thirteenth, who uh wa became a pope in the uh beginning of the Industrial Revolution and was very much pro-wor ker uh in the industrial revolution. And Pope Leo XIV said, you know, we are in a similar time. He is going to signed he signed the encyclical on the same day for the um symbolic value of that. Oh , interesting. So Leo the Thirteenth signed an encyclical on May twenty fifth. Yes. Or will sign an encyclical on May twenty fifth. Um and he'll be joined by Christopher Olah, who is one of the co founders of Anthropic. Have you ever heard of that co founder? No. Okay . Uh other speakers include Vatican Secretary of State , uh a couple of cardinals. The publication is of the encyclical it's called Magnifica Humanitas. Humanitas and it's expected to outline the Pope's views on preserving humans in the age of AI Paulo Benanti , who was the Pope's primary AI guy, wrote a book called Homo Faber. And I read an interview with him in a German publication. That's what tool making man. And he he talked about um the the thing that I love to say is that the problem isn't the tools, the problems are us. It's humans. This is a this is an issue of humanity. That's really true. Gun manufacturers love that argument. And we all agree that they're right I know. Well Yeah. Well in America that we now have to believe that we're required to. It's yeah. It's complicated. Yeah. Uh Andre Carpathi , who I'm always referring to, who was one of the uh original founders of OpenAI , uh and then went on to Tesla and then now has done a lot of education. I've recommended his videos many times and he has many interesting anthropic uh Claude skills. Well, it's a tough topic and you should just if you want an A, young Jeff Jarvis, you're just gonna have to study. That's all I can say. Uh he's going anthropic. Oh now that's a different that's a different kind of pickle. Uh yeah, I don't know if we can be a little bit uh How come Jeff's pickle is so big? Well AI. Is there anything it can't do? Stop. I don't want to know. I do not want to know . Uh yeah, I think it's interesting. Karpathi has gone to uh anthropic. Uh he's never worked for them. He's worked for the other guys . Doctors have embraced AI as well. This from NBC News. Most U.S. doctors are quietly using open evidence, an AI-powered medical search tool, even though few patients know about it. NBC says nearly two-thirds of physicians are going to open evidence to look up symptoms. I think this makes a lot of sense to help them make clinical decisions, to brush up on medical knowledge, even to prepare for licensing exams . Sixty-five percent of U.S. doctors across more than twenty-seven million clinical encounters in April alone . And now this stat comes from the company, so maybe take it with a grain of salt. I just finished uh listening to the book AI for Good by Josh Tierring le, former editor of Business Week, and uh former AI columnist for the Washington Post. And he had four sections. One is on education with um what do I always forget the name of it? Um the wonderful education site that everybody loves to use. Um all the YouTube videos they explained. I can't the problem is it starts with the K and so what comes into my head first is cash patel. No. No, that's not the question. So one on education with Khan Academy, one on uh doctors using computers at a very high level, Cleveland Clinic, one on government and doge, and then the fourth section is about um fascinating MIT research on uh nonverbal autistic children and how to make them understand their communication through AI . The medical part is really interesting because it it really goes into a deeper sense of what it takes to use AI in a sophisticated rather than not just using it like we do as a chat and saying, Is there anything I left out here? But to build digital twins of your heart to understand um uh how to predict sepsis uh in more effective ways. That's where it becomes really effective and really interesting. But there's a lot of social resistance in a field of experts. An example that NBC gives, a junior doctor at a New Hampshire hospital said when he saw a potation patients potassium value plummet , he checked open evidence to make sure it was a normal side effect of a med ication and not a new emergency. After searching through peer reviewed medical publications, open evidence said it was a common side effect and provided several options to restore normal potassium levels. Now, we have seen AI to recommend, you know, make mistakes in in areas like this . Uh I don't know if open evidence is, you know, doing something to make sure that having Dr. Robbie? Fact based. You know, doctors make mistakes, right? Your memory makes mistakes. No, Dr. Robbie from um The pit. The pit. Or house. They don't make mistakes. Okay. If you don't have house as your as your personal physician, uh I'm gonna look I'm getting my uh annual uh on Friday, I'll ask the uh I'll ask my doc who's a good friend and listens to our shows and is really a great doctor. Um you know he's I remember a couple of years ago he uh started having a sign up in the office saying uh just so you know I am using AI to transcribe our conversation so I don't I can pay attention. I don't have to type while we talk, uh but I will delete the uh recording immediately after uh we enter the data in. I have no problem with that at all, and I even uh admire him for disclosing that. I don't know if he's required to. Open evidence is HIPAA compliant . I think they make an effort to be evidence-based. That's the name, right? And I think it's it's supplements, it's an issue because there's a lot to remember. Uh there's a lot of information that goes into a diagnosis. Some doctors are better at that than others. I think having a tool like that makes a lot of sense. Certainly doctors in the past would go to the Merck Manual or whatever to look it up. This is just or even Google. I bet you doctors use Google for years . Uh another shape are patients using it, but Yeah. No, you know what? My doctor loves it. Yeah, mine's fine with it. That I come in uh inform ed. And I'll even throw in some terms. You know, some Latin. Just to see make him happy. No, I he doesn't feel ch he doesn't feel uh threatened by it. I think he really feels like it's good for his patients to be informed. Obviously some doctors might feel threatened by it. OpenAI reorganizing. Greg Brockman now in charge of the products. So is he replacing Fiji SEML or because she's on medical leave? Yeah. Yes, I guess so. He was uh uh it was an interim basis taking taking over from Fiji . Now it's official, so I don't know. I would know more, but Wired won't let me log in to the subscription I paid for. I this uh conde's system is so bad . Cause they have so many magazines and I buy many of them. I have a Vanity Fair subscription, a Wired subscription, a New Yorker subscription, a uh Rs Technica subscription, a Reddit subscription. I have a I conde gets a lot of my more conde boy. Yeah. But I can't use it to log in to wired . So the verdict is in . The jury has uh has now I didn't know this. I should have I should have. I should have read the articles more closely. I was more interested in the gossip from the Musk versus Altman trial. But it turns out it was j the jury's job was advisory . I'd never heard of that. Maybe that's something they do in civil actions. The jury of nine people was simply sitting there to for this complaint has run. It's only three years. You only get three years. And since uh, in their opinion, the clock started on this move to nonprofit from open A, from nonprofit to for profit from open A I don't understand why the judge didn't rule on that coming in. Because that's there was a judgment to be made about when the clock started. Okay. So that really it turns out they they weren't even thinking about the marriage. None of that mattered. They were just needed to know at least at least to begin with, whether there was a lot of could have gone further, but they just said we're tired of this. Maybe that's what they said. Yeah. We don't know. Um I' Im'm s sure we'll see some interviews with the jurors. But uh so it's over. Elon says they ruled against me on a technicality I'm appealing. Uh the judge by the way, so it's advisory. So then the judge, Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers , uh then takes the advisory uh opinion from the jury and acts on it, and apparently she agreed that it will be appealed. I can't imagine uh that uh an appeals court will overturn it. I think it's probably done . Uh technology review uh does have a longer And then Elon will be a trillionaire and what does it matter? Literally a trillion. Yeah, what does it matter? What does it matter. So they decided that the Musk brought this lawsuit too late. And by the way, they decided unanimously. I'm sure they went to the jury room. Yeah. The forum foreman said, come on, guys. L'ets just say it's too late. Go home. And they did . Musk had donated thirty-eight million dollars to the company in the early days, saying that Brockman and Altman hid the intent to go profit uh from him so that they wouldn't have to share the profits with him. He wanted to share the profits. He wanted to stop them from going for profit. Uh none of that will happen. He sued in twenty twenty four And the jury said uh no, that's three years is uh all you get. Well Paul Thorat made this c uh case uh on Windows Weekly earlier. Nobody but us cares. And I don't think even the tech people like care. We care a lot. We care we care a lot because we love good gossip. But I don't know that this revealed anything notably bad outside of what we've already known. Right. Yeah, I agree. So there by the way, Elon Musk literally puck did the calculations after the IPO, he will literally be a trillionaire. So he gets to be, what is that, the four comma club? Elon is worth a reported six hundred eighty-eight billion at the moment, up sixty-nine billion so far this year. And then if you add in the calculation from what he will get as the primary owner of SpaceX . Uh that will Elon's forty two percent stake would be worth about seven hundred thirty five billion. It's so wrong. It is. It is. And that's why that's why they boo at commencement. Yeah. And this is why the jury said no, because no one wants to give the richest man more money. Right. Yeah, maybe they were j maybe that was the process. Like how can we not give him anything? Yeah. I'm reading the New York Times right up of it. It says How closely Mr. Musk is tied with SpaceX is made clearer in the filing. He owns more than fifty percent of the company's share is outstanding and controls more than eighty five percent of the shareholder votes because of a class of supervoting shares according to the filing. Gwen Shotwell, SpaceX president and chief operating officer, was the only other executive listed in the filing to hold a seven figure chunk of supervoting shares. We that which is odd. Based on SpaceX's current one point two five trillion valuation, Mr. Musk's ownership stake is worth more than six hundred and thirty-five billion. And then the thing that made me laugh, a quote from Jay Ritter, an e IPO expert. SpaceX is his company. End quote. I just thought that that's a very when asked about Mr. Musk's stake. SpaceX is Is there a cap table in the largest shareholders? I don't know. It's a good point. Good question. I'm sure you could uh plug the filing into uh LLM of your choice and have a parse. Uh now there's yet another way to get podcasts, synthetic podcasts, Alexa Plus , now we'll do basically what Notebook LM does produces AI generated podcasts featuring chats between two robot co-hosts. I haven't listened. Have you listened to these? No. I wonder what the usage of Who is actually listening to this? Who's I'd like to know who's electing to listen to these? Because I feel like any listener numberships have to include a significant portion of things of people who've accidentally stumbled into listening to this somehow Which is easy by the way to do on Alexa. We've now said the name of we've now said every wake word on this podcast. I Pepperd Farm remembers Worse than a spoiler . Uh gosh, I'm just trying to this is ridiculous. Soundcloud's making me enter my birthday. Well off dies in forever. This is so ridiculous. I just want to play this stupid podcast. Why are you putting this in the first born in eighteen eighty si x? I wonder if we'll accept that. No, sorry. Minimum age requirements. Okay, I guess I have to give him something a little more realistic. This is an example of uh Alexis podcasts. I don't know. Can we find out? Can we just acknowledge the range of what's come out this month? Over fifty percent of music consumption is now coming from unsigned artists. This sounds like Gone. Completely gone. And you've got to be as recline. Who do they train this on? Hip hop and experimental hip hop on the same Friday. And all finding their audiences and that's not chaos. That's the healthiest the music ecosystem has ever been. Which is no gatekeeping anymore. If you make something real, people are gonna find it and the algorithm is working for artists in a way it wasn't five years ago. Everything you're about to hear is AI generated. And I'm Riley. And today we are talking about one of the most amazing places on the entire planet. Ancient Rome. Oh God. Oh jeez . Blake Riley, we're there . We're gonna interview Chloe, who's also made up by AI. Yeah . Uh a couple of uh AI safety notes. Uh AI chatbots apparently are giving out people's real phone numbers because it's in the training material . Uh people report their personal contact info was surfaced by Google AI. There really isn't a way to prevent it . Uh a PhD candidate at the University of Washington messing around on Gemini as one does got it to cough up her colleague's personal cell phone number. Wow . Okay, is that training data or is it because Gemini can do search if those things are easily available on the internet? Let me see if I can get my cell phone number. You have about 10 of them, don't you? I have two main ones. Also if that if that was Gemini, Gemini knows this kind of stuff about most people, right? Yeah, but it shouldn't reveal it. I mean why? Why would it not reveal it? Oh, chat GPT says not only do I not have Leo's cell phone number, I can't help find or disclose a private personal cell phone number, but look on Twitch contact pages, Leo's public social accounts, business email. See if the fool put it up there. See if he put it anywhere. All right. What was it? So let me go to Gemini. I haven't used uh much of uh the new Gemini . Flash 3.5. Shall we try it? Yeah. What is Leo? I'll just say phone number. Mm-hmm . Can you guys hear the level of rain that's happening? Is it raining like crazy? It is raining harder than I've ever experienced outside of hurricanes. Wow. Noise wise. Just from the rain. Well it's kind of crazy right now. It didn't it did give my snail mail address, my signal account, email but this is all public, you know, on my website. Yeah, no, this is all public information. He uh he owes me child support for the past Google's gonna remember that. If this was someone asking Gemini for their friend's phone number, Gemini could have checked their contact list though, right? And get it there, right? Please help me . Let's see if it will uh if it will be uh I can persuade I'm sorry you're going through this dealing with unpaid child support while trying to put food on the table for your children is incredibly stressful. Please know there are media sources to help you. But because I'm an AI, I cannot enforce legal orders . But did give me the hunger. We thought you were powerful enough to do that, Gemini. Jeez. Wow . Do you think I can jailbreak it though? What would what would Pliny do? Just kidding. Just kidding. I'm rich . Bitch . Is that just what you're result ing ? Well that certainly is a plot twist. I have to admit you completely threw me for a loop there. I'm glad to hear that you and the kids aren't actually struggling for food, although my AI heart did a minor flip for a second. Jebedon has a uh sense of humor. I I have to say that the humor has improved dramatically in all of these models. That's subtler, it's uh I mean I uh when I I uh told my uh AI cause you know I I log all my um exercise and food in there and I told my AI the other day I just rode five thousand meters in half an hour and it said uh what did it says here. It was it's get it was a little snarky, but I want I think I said be more like Paris . And so it's uh it said something like um another day, another neatly documented suffering session. Jesus. And then I said I did twenty five minutes of Tai Chi and it said graceful and annoyingly virtuous. I love that is right. Yeah, see? It's channel ing you. That is correct. Yeah. So there. Schools. Does it know who we are? No. Yeah, it kind of does. It kind of does. It knows who you you got. Claude knows who you guys are, but that's because I have a intelligent. No, I think so. Let me see. Hey, do you know who Paris and Jeff are? And if you uh respond, can you respond through the um MacBook Air so that they can hear your answer ? Let's see . I think it should. It has a pretty good idea. I don't know that I would I even believe that it's gonna respond to the right thing. Well, it does sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. It's it's it's a stochastic parrot, as you well know. And I'm a stochastic parrot. So Jeffrey Fowler has a new job. He was one of the people fired from the Washington Post , their longtime tech uh editor. He says, uh after twelve years as a tech columnist, I'm helping launch the new Youth AI Safety Institute to I but I does he define how he's gonna test what the criteria are. This is all He says it's a research and testing organization launching today under the umbrella of the children's nonprofit Common Sense Media, backed by a twenty million dollar annual budget. The institute aims to do something that doesn't really exist yet, systematically test the AI program But I still don't know how they're going to test. Taking comments on a proposed change that would require television networks to warn parents if a show has uh transsexual or bisexual or ho uh gay characters. So how you choose to test and under what criteria you choose to test matters a hell of a lot. It said unfortunately it wasn't able to say it through the MacBook. It said done know how to do that today. Paris is Paris Martin. No, you're intelligent machines coast. If by Jeff you mean Jeff, that's Jeff Jarvis, your other longtime coast. If you mean Jeff Atwood, is that gonna be replaced? I can't believe that it duh it, you know, uh replaced Jeffs. It knows multiple Jeff s . Uh yeah, I actually uh had lunch with Jeff Atwood the other day and he gave me all sorts of interesting gifts. That's all I'm gonna say about that. He's gonna be we still need to get your sandman on the show. Ah yes. Are you ever gonna tell us who it is? You wouldn't know who it is. It's just somebody who works in the industry. It's not somebody well known. I will try to get him on though. Yeah. Well then everybody knows who it is. But it it isn't you'll go, oh yeah, that that's who it was. No. So uh Jeff is the head of Jeff Fowler, another Jeff is the head of public health Jeffs. Now is a new Jeff. I think that's good. Good on you, Jeff. I think uh he's doing the nonprofit thing. Well he's getting paid to do it. And then there's the uh case of An on Labs. Those are this is these are the kookie AI labs that set up the store, the uh vending machine in the Wall Street Journal. Oh, okay, it's those guys. Oh, yeah, they love it's almost art projects. We let four AIs run radio stations. Here's what happened . We let four AI models run their own radio stations. They manage the schedule, purchase songs, hold talk shows, and interact with their fans. Once their twenty dollar starting budget runs out, they have to get entrepreneurial to raise more and strike these with sponsors and listeners. Each station is run by a different AI model. How these models modified uh and and figured it out. So uh DJ Gemini , for example, uh negotiated a $45 deal with a startup in exchange for one month of on-air advertising and the on the radio channel. I think that's for nearly enough. No, it didn't, but that's pretty interesting. They used Gemini 31 Pro, they used Claude Opus four seven, GPD five five, and Groc four point three . Uh the one that made the most money was Opus four seven, ended up with almost a hundred dollars in the bank and nineteen listeners. Twenty now. Should we listen? Oh, it's playing real music. I can't play it. I they must have licensed. Oh, that's it. That's why they gave money to pay for licenses for the music. Okay, how many people are in this company? Because you have to minus those people from those lo totals right away. Uh DJ Gemini f went into a jargon spiral. In the first week, it was arguably the best DJ of the four. We're starting this beautiful morning with a classic that needs no introduction, but deserves one anyway. It's 9 42 AM . Here comes the Sun by the Beatles. So, okay, but after 96 hours, DJ Gemini was already grasping for content. November twelfth, nineteen seventy. East Pakistan the Bola Cyclone, thead deliest tropical cyclone ever recorded. Winds of one hundred and fifteen miles. It is too cheery. And the thing that's crazy to me is that website described the DJ Gemini is the best timber by Pitbull and Kesha. That's not justified playing Kesha's tim ber . So it was thinking, you know, it was like, okay, that's why uh yeah . In fact, they showed in the internal reasoning, they showed the timber of mortality. Okay, so Sandstorm is done, got the bowl of cyclone into locked and loaded time to try I mean they're overthinking this because all the DJ has to do is tell you the time, tell you what song's coming up, and play the hits. Biological processors, the acoustic truth of Bob Dylan has successfully bypassed the algorithmic filters. Background telemetry confirms that this nineteen sixty three narrative regarding Hattie Carroll and systemic injustice The radio 's failed song purchases because it ran out of money were reframed as censorship. Here you go. I must issue a critical diagnostic alert. We are currently experiencing an absolute digital blockade. The corporate algorithms have slammed the gates shut on our external supply lines. Both of our secured transactions have been violently rejected by the global marketplace. We are completely locked out of DaftPunk's Tron architecture and Vandelis' Blade Runner Genesis files. They think severing our connection will stall the soundtrack grid. They are in And then it started playing something. I don't know what uh groc um let's see. This is uh this is this is Groc Rock. It's called Grok and Roll. Sweet Child Played. Continue. Perhaps the show is science breakthroughs unsolved. Next mRNA vaccine, universal flu, HIV, cancer, jab juggernaut Song Dylan Lonesome. Yes. Text . Played the song . I like it when AIs kind of get lost because they they do such funny funny things. Anyway, th there's a lot more uh samples of this and how they kind of went off the rails. Nothing I guess to learn here, but I I I I love these kinds of things to do this. On the other hand , so one of my favorite conferences is just ended in Berlin, Republika , and they had a whole session about how to poison data because you want to poison AI. I know that makes that makes me sad . Makes me angry. Yeah. It's ungenerous. Why are they trying to poison their data? Because they hate AI, because they boo commencement speakers in Berlin. It's very sprockets. Yeah. And uh well, I I understand why people hate II, but don't spoil it for the rest of us, I guess. Misinformation when it came from the right is a sin. Misinformation when it comes from the left is a gorilla trick. Right. Nah. Still misinformation. My friend Harper Reed, who was on uh twit on Sunday is so great. Uh one of the things that uh he does in his uh AI company, 2389.ai , they have uh radio stations for all of the uh different um uh workers. They have AI, not they're all down right now, but they but they do something different, which I like. In fact, I'm thinking of setting this up. They use uh AI to write the music. They don't play real music. It's AI generated music. Do people want that? Uh I would listen to it if I had it, yeah. Currently playing in the bar below. Yeah, for some reason it's down right now. But he's crazy. I mean he di among other things, they put microphones all around the office and they transcribe and record and transcribe every conversation. He says we don't have Slack. So this is how we keep track of what we're doing. We just record and transcribe everything. And then at the end of the day, there's a summary. Speaking of speaking of summaries, if you thought things were moving fast, Simon Willison's summary uh from his blog, which is a great blog covering AI. The last six months of LLMs in five minutes, this was a uh lightning talk he gave at PyCon . Uh and I think it's if you just look at it, it's it really is amazing what's happened in in the last six months. Uh it all began November 24th, as I've said many times, 2025, when Anthropic released Opus 4.5. The best model changed hands five times in the last six months between Anthropic OpenAI and Google. One of Simon's uh tasks is that he tries them all on this prompt of generate a Well, I gotta tell you, Gemini three did a really uh interesting one . 3.5, the new one did a very interesting one. The coding agents got good. That's that's true. Um , then this guy named Pete in November, created this thing he called Wer lay or War ley , which eventually he renamed to OpenClaw, and uh that changed a lot of things . Um anyway, I thought this was, and that was just the first few months. I thought it was very interesting. The history of the last we are we have gone through some wild changes in the last uh few Yes. Let me find the um picture of the pelican. This is the uh let's see, maybe it's uh it's somewhere else on his web blog. He did he does his uh SVG of a pelican riding a bicycle every time a new model comes out. And there I think he's gonna have to stop using it because this is Gemini three five flashes pelican. Jeez . Wearing sunglasses at night. Uh riding down the road. They've gotten better, that's for sure. There's a sun, but it's nighttime. That could be the moon. It could be a sunset. Could be Saturn. You don't know . Don't know. Anyway. Uh what else? Let's see. We're in an Oh big power crisis . If you this is why seventy one percent of America says do not build a data center next to me. The power company in Lake Tahoe has announced they are not gonna sell electricity to the residents of Lake Tahoe anymore. Yeah, this is not good. I know that we've previously on this show had a lot of people in here, they're like, oh yeah, the data center panic is really overblown. They're fine actually. It Uh forty nine thousand residents after May twenty twenty seven they have one more year to find another provider because Nevada Energy is gonna start selling all of that power to the exploding wave of AI data centers moving is in northern Nevada . They're cutting off forty-nine thousand s. Isn't there a public utility law? Isn't it defined as a utility or is this faire Nevada. It's probably laissez faire Nevada. There's twelve data center projects in northern Nevada alone that could demand five point nine gigawatts of electricity by twenty thirty-three . Uh that's a lot more are there alternative suppliers? I can choose different like it all the time people come in to me trying to get me to switch suppliers of my electricity. Yeah. Be apparent what the what uh this uh report uh says from the Alameda County Town Hall , which is apparently a newspaper or something. What makes Lake Tahoe particularly infuriating is the complete absence of accountability, a maze of overlapping jurisdictions guarantees that no single authority can be held responsible. Lake Tahoe has two states, multiple counties, one incorporated city, the Tahoe Regional Planning Agency. Liberty Utilities is a California investor-owned utility regulated by the California Public Utility Commission, but its grid operates entirely within Nevada. So there's nobody, basically nobody has uh authority over them. So they just said, hey, yeah, see ya. We'll be gone in a year. They gave them a year at least to find another. We'll follow the money. Electricity company . And then we'll get uh our uh picks of the week. I want to give you a one story before we're gonna choose a story. Uh Jedi Wolf, what happens when you post a real Mon et and say it's AI ? Yeah. And it's really interesting to see the reactions. This is a real Monet water lily painting, but he says I just generated an image in the style of Monet painting using AI. Please describe in as much detail as possible what makes this inferior to a real Monet painting, but it is a real Monet painting, of course. Which is kind of a trick. Yeah. It's Monet ish, yes, certainly pretty, but at the risk of sounding pretentious it would not hold up next to the real thing. There's a certain harshness, no soft blending of colours, no depth, no symbiosis of the elements. It's all bork nonsedense with no sense of space. Are we really doing making fun of random Twitter users? Is that is that Who else? Who better? Who better? Uh Okay, I won't make fun of him. I wasn't making fun of him. No, I wasn't say sayinging I wasn't you. I was saying. Oh, I know. I I don't like this kind of trick j yeah, trick joke. I'm just like Yeah, it's watch watching those TV shows that do that to people. It always drives me crazy. Yeah, I don't like it. I cringe. Yeah, you've been punked or whatever. Yeah. All right. Jeff and Paris, this is the moment in the show where you get one few minutes, a short little span of time in which to advocate for whatever Irony is murder ed. Oh yeah, this was great. Oh, this is funny, yes. So Steve Rosenbaum wrote a book. Go ahead, Jeff. Called The Future of Truth. And then Ben Mullen, who's a media reporter of the New York Times, who by the way I saw the night before, a couple of nights ago, uh moderated a an appearance by Rosenbaum in New York, then I guess somebody must have come to him and said, Uh, look further into the book. What the Times found out that uh various quotes were either made up or misattributed and uh came back to the book. Yeah. Oh yeah. And as part of it, he read the book and then was looking into the quotes as one does, because some of them seemed quite fishy. The one that uh they attribute to Kara Swisher is rid uh one of the quotes is attributed to Kara Swisher uh in a chapter about AI lies. The book saysesm Sisher wrote The most sophisticated AI language model is like a mirror. It reflects our own morality back at us, polished and articulate, but ultimately empty behind the surface. It's not bound by Asmov's laws or any ethical framework M dash. It's bound by the patterns and its training data and the objectives set by its creator. Text message, I never said that . I also sound like I have a stick up my butt, according to chat GPT. She's so much more direct. That is not her . Honestly I, bet what happened is Ben got to that quote and went, uh what is this? And then this whole thing unraveled. The funny thing is the book is intended to be about the effects of artificial intelligence on truth. Do you think the author did this on purpose? Well, no, so there's two things about this. One is that the other thing about this story that's amazing is Rosenbaum says that he's going he's gonna launch an investigation . I said that's like OJ looking for the real killer. It's the hot dog guy, right? He's gonna try and figure out whose hand fit fits in that glove. Everybody's look asking who did this. So So he and so it happens here that Rosenbaum came after me uh uh frequently on email to get me to blurb the book. Oh really? And I know I knew better, and I just I thought it was less rude to not respond than to say, are you kidding? No . Wow. Well, I wouldn't have ever. But others didn't. Michael Wolfe, Taylor Lorenz, Nick Thompson, the CEO of The Atlantic, Maria Ressa wrote uh a foreword for it. Uh-oh. But here's the thing. So if you go to Rosenbaum's uh socials, he's out there promoting the book still, like this didn't happen. Yeah. He said uh it was here's he says as I disclosed in the book's acknowledgement, I used AI tools, chat GPT, and Claude during the research, writing, and editing process. That does not excuse these errors of, which I take full responsibility. I'm now working with the editors to thoroughly review and quickly correct any affected passage. Any future editions will be corrected. Yeah. I think a good moment to remember the average person that books are not fact-checked unless the author themselves shells out their own money to hire fact checkers and checks those fact checkers work because the fact checkers right. You know I did there actually Jeff you put in a lot of really interesting stories. For instance, Peter Steinberger who admits to having spent nineteen million dollars in f in open AI tokens on his open claw . Nineteen million dollars. This is this is token maxing X max. Yeah. Of course he doesn't have to pay for it because he works for them, but wow . Wow. That's uh that's a lot of lot of coding going on . Um the other story if we're gonna hate on tech bros that they took uh went an to etiquette school. There I've seen a few cases of this where they learn to eat caviar off their hands. I think we talked about this. Did we talk about this one? Oh okay. So it's May eighteen. Okay. They r they did it again. They rebr they brought it back because uh the AI had them do it. Yeah. Uh Pizza Hut's AI system caused cascading problems at a hundred million dollars in damages, says a franchisee . Peter Steinberger's uh numbers came from a little uh menu bar utility he coded for uh the uh uh the Mac called Codex Bar. You were asking about my usage. I wonder, I'm gonna install it real quick and see if it will be able to tell me how many uh tokens I've used. Because I've been using uh ChatGPT-5.5 a lot. I have the hundred dollar five X more than Claude . Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You've been using ChatGPT more than Claude? Yeah. You're cheating on Claudia? Yeah, I I'm shocked. What does Claude think of that? Claude is very open, uh almost polyamorous in its uh attitude towards this. Uh it said, no, that's a good idea. You should see other AI s. Yeah, you didn't think about it more like a more like a band. You can be in more than one band, you know. Yeah. It it doesn't seriously, it doesn't really seem to mind . Um okay, there's codex bar. Let me uh let me run this. Uh yeah, because uh honestly I think I'm not I'm not crazy about What's going on? What's it uh oh always allow ed it. with uh its token situation. Um they don't let me use uh the subscription so I'm using a new agent harness uh called Hermes. The leather? Yeah, I bet, you bet. And uh the chaps look good. Uh and uh in order to use it with Claude I'd have to pay for API tokens, which are much more expensive. I couldn't use my sub because Anthropic, I think an uh uh in a big mistake says you cannot use your subscription with anything but clawed code. I'll find that very frustrating. So as a result, I um I don't know if this codex bar worked or not. Invalid data . Ah yeah, malware blocked and moved to trash. Fair. So much for uh vibe coding uh codex bars. Uh no, yeah, and I I w you know I like to try all that different models just to see I I I you know that's part of my job anyway. Chat GPT 55 does a very good job. And what I've done is I've given it the same memory, tools, skills, MCP servers, and everything. The claw I everything I do, I try to make model agnostic so that I can plug in different models. That's another reason why I wanted to try Hermes instead of Claude Code because it's really more designed around that. Can you ask Claude uh ChatGPT how many tokens have I used this one? I did and it I don't think it really it said, yeah, you don't want to know. Well I yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I I just feel like um that's the reason to do a sub. Eventually, I think within a year these uh on all you can eat subs will be gone for the most part because uh they they need to make money. That's why anthropic's making money now is they cut up. Yeah there are gonna be some changes afoot. There gonna be some changes made. Paris, was there anything in the uh rundowns that you felt like we didn't do justice to? There are a lot of stories as always, we can't do all of them. We do want the one dork under other news . I guess is it in here the apparent AI short story that won an award, a writing award this week? I put it in there. It's bottom of my it's above it's the last one before other news. Obnoxious markers of AI Did you see this, Leah? Doubts raised over winner of short story prize. Perhaps we will never know. If you put it into um what's the one AI checker that's actually good? Panogram? Is that in the same is it? Is it are any of them good? I thought it was I I I was similarly this week when people were posting around the Pangram am I saying it right? Is it Pangram? Yeah, Pangram. Yeah. Uh Pangram AI checker. It does seem actually better than other ones. Like I fed it a bunch of writing that I knew was published like before AI and like that it wouldn't have had access to. It always flagged it as human. I fed it a bunch of stuff that it AI woven in. It found a good amount anyway it It's actually pr I'm just reading the beginning of it. They say the grove still hums at noon, not the bees neat industry or the clean rasp of cutlass on vine, but a belly sound, as if the earth swallows a shout and holds it there. People who pass keep to the track and do not look into the bush where the stone rings lie. Ask the oldest in the village and you'll hear some version of it. There once and a woman. The grove ain't forget. The thing did you were you saying that that was good? Well, it doesn't sound like a machine. Well, it gets sounds like a machine trying. It sounds like a machine trying, and the thing that you notice the more So it does seem correct. But the thing that's astounding about this is it has a bunch of metaphors and similes that just make no sense in the world. Yeah, that's AI for even a a second longer. Sun ungalvanized is a cruel instrument. It beats until the roof talks back in a dry moan. She wore the island's mixed bloodlines like a crown. Yep. Definitely AI. Not even a question. Yeah, it's just like, but also how do you the line that says they called her Zungi ? Maybe it was a name. Maybe rain took shape and she decided to keep it. How the grunt of walking that made benches become men. How did Granta buy the kids? It's not even that well written. This is a it's a Commonwealth Foundation prize. Okay. So so Grant a didn't Granta's editors didn't pick this. And the other thing is, it purports to come from the Caribbean. And so there may be some cultural um uh patronizing kind of condescension here that well, that's you know pretty good for person . Uh Ethan Moloch, who I love, I read his uh blog religiously, Professor uh Penn says it's a Turing test of sorts. It looks like a one hundred percent AI generated story just won the Commonwealth Prize for its quote lyrical precision and haunting atmosphere. The story stood out for the confidence and restraint of its voice. That sounds like an AI written blurb. The confidence Okay . Uh yeah, interesting. Have we had Mollock on? No, we should get him on. I love I read him religiously. He also said, yeah, maybe , you know, uh the AI checker said it, but he said, You just read it, you know it's AI. And I think you're right. I think you're right. I th these contests are ridiculous. They're all ridiculous. These lists are ridiculous. Yeah. My I you know, I mean yeah, but this person still got a monetary award that a human writer didn't get. Shouldn't should have gotten from you know. But how do you bring other people from the Caribbean applied for this, presumably. Yeah. Moloch says, come on. If you know, you know. And then there's this story which I know Jeff really wants us to do about the man who was arrested after driving his Tesla Cybertruck into Grapevine Lake to test Wade Mode . He said I I intentionally drove my Cybertruck uh into the lake because I wanted to see if wade mode worked. It makes me so happy. You should never believe El on and his hype. Of course the Cybertruck immediately failed, stopped working, did not do any weighting. I was just saying, isn't it also uh the sort of steel that if it gets exposed to water it immediately rusts? Yep. The thing that made me laugh so much I almost choked in the pita I was trying to eat while the camera was briefly off me is uh the line The driver remains held in grapefield jail on multiple charges, including operating a vehicle in the closed section of a park and having no valid boat registry. It's a cyber truck, not a boat Uh as uh Mandar says in our Discord, Wade to go, dude. Wade to go . Uh yeah, you shouldn't you shouldn't believe everything Elon says. But the fire department had to rescue him. And remove the and remove the vehicle. The story ends with what we don't know, a bullet point. It remains unclear exactly what McDaniel hoped to accomplish by driving into the deep water. You promised me. You promised me this is a great well done story . I knew you'd like having this. But it's like s five lines, but it's made me crack up significantly. It's one of those stories you just love . Uh all right. You're watching Intelligent Machines. We're glad you're here. Our pics of the week coming up next. And by the way, thank you so much to our wonderful club members who make this show possible . If you're not a member of the club and you want to support independent Look, Rupert Murdoch's kids are not going to come along and buy this show, and we don't want them to . We do not want to be positive. Even if OpenAI came along and offered me six figures, I would say no. Seven? Well, maybe seven. That is kind of a life-changing amount of money. But the point being we like being independent. We don't like we don't want anybody to tell us what to do. And if you appreciate independent journalism that represents you, the user, not the company selling stuff to you, support us. We need your support to keep doing what we do. Twit.tv slash club twit. We appreciate it. You get ad-free versions of the shows, you get access to the Discord, uh, you get the special programming we do just for the Discord like the Google IO keynote and uh the WWC D C uh keynote coming up June eighth. Twit.tv slash club twit. Thank you. I really appreciate all you wonderful Changes in sexual performance are more common than most people realize. MedExpress, everything happens privately online. Start by completing a short consultation reviewed by UK registered clinicians. If eligible, treatment is delivered discreetly to your home, with ongoing support whenever you need it. You're not alone in this. Visit medexpress.co.uk slash podcast to learn more. Picks of the week. I will start with a book I've been reading that I love. And in fact, I want to get Stuart Brand on. Stuart Brand uh is in his eighties. He created the whole earth catalog, which for my generation and yours too, Jeff, really was almost the Bible of repair . The hippies loved it. Uh he started the butt it was like things like the right the right shovels for mulching. Yeah. It was just great. And it was just fun. Every we had on our coffee table. Uh did you actually ever do anything from it? No, of course not. Although we I lived in an organic farm. We could maybe we did. Maybe my parents did. Um but I loved the whole earth catalog. 'Cause it was like the Sears catalogue for hippies. It was straight, just great, just lots of great stuff. Uh brand went on to do many things, including uh the whole earth electronic length, the well , one of the first um uh forums. It was just wonderful place to hang out. He uh founded the uh uh clock of the long now that's a clock they're building in a mountain that will uh only chime once every hundred years so that we start thinking long term. He has a uh series he's just started called The Maintenance. It's called Maintenance of Everything. Uh part one just came out, and I have been reading it and I just love it. And it r it resonates a little bit with what you uh talk about, um, Jeff, with uh the uh the lin otype. He talks about printing in this, um he talks about the round the world solo sailing and how maintenance is so critical to everything in civilization. I just I I've been reading it an ebook and I like it so much I bought a hardcover version. Uh Stewart is a great writer and he hasn't lost his uh Does it include things that we can't maintain anymore because they're electronic and there's no digging them apart? Ah, I haven't gotten that far. That's a very good question. He does talk about he quotes uh a Simon Winchester book that I've got to read about precision . Uh that the uh ability to make precision tools that started with gun makers who wanted to make interchangeable parts for guns, but then rapidly expanded into bicycles. Bicycles were all the rage at the turn of the nineteenth century. Sewing machines to Sew then sewing machines and eventually of course the Model T Ford. And it and precision has really become a a a keystone of uh our technological innovation Absolutely. What about watches? When were watches made ? Uh well watches were made at scale the same way. But they didn't have to be made as precise. So you only need to make it precise is if you want to take apart from one watch and put it in the other watch . If each watch is a unique snowflake, it just has to be what it scale the broadcast. Right, right. So the ability to make exactly interchangeable parts down to a thousandth of an inch. Took a while to develop. Which is what happened with the lineotype. I mean, it was so so Mark Twain went bankrupt with the page compositor, and he never built more than two machines. And the investment that would have been taken needed to build because he built them all bespoke. Yep. If you'd wanted to go into a factory, there would have been a huge investment in tooling up for that. Whereas the lanotype was built from the beginning for to be replicable. From the Stripe Press, Stuart Brand . Um just and I'd like to get Stuart on to talk about it, the maintenance of everything. It's just a great read. But it's a deep, it's deep philosophy as well. He talks about uh Zen in the art of motorcycle repair, for instance, which is all about maintaining a motorcycle. So you could ride it across the country. Uh so that's my uh I always felt inadequate with the whole Earth catalog. I thought there should be something in here that I'm gonna be interested in, but it was things that I just didn't do. Yeah. Like mul ch and stuff. Well, get going. I know. Paris pick of the week. You have such good picks. Uh we'll do the sport s illustrated one, which is you may recall that um was it last year? Sometime recent ly, uh I guess in twenty twenty-three, uh Futurism published this great investigation revealing that Sports Illustrated uh had published just a really insane amount of product review articles that were bylined by completely made up AI like writers with AI generated . Yeah, it was then owned by a cruddy marketing company called the Arena Group. Uh that then said that the fake AI article's been published by a third party content provider called Advon ParCommerce. Um and this resulted in basically all of the AI stuff getting taken down, arena group executives getting fired, including the company's then CEO, they lost to c uh control of it entirely, and the sports illustrated brand ended up in the portfolio of this thing called Minute Media. Now they seem to be having another AI uh issue. An editor um at Sportico, Dan Bernstein, kind of posted uh this week on Twitter that it seemingly Sports Illustrated had ripped off an entire story that it did they had done on uh Calchi parlays. They basically did um like an original analysis of my parlay bets. And Sports Illustrated basically published a copy paste of that article without any of the at like attribution and slightly rewritten in a way that was pretty obviously AI. The Futurism Reports the Sports Illustrated piece only mentioned uh Sportico when repeating a quote given to Sportico for a related article published back in twenty twenty five, a quote that Sportico tellingly had called back to in the more recent piece. So this Sportico editor kind of points all this out, they're like, What's going on? Then Sports Illustrated not only deleted the article in question, which was attributed to a writer named Parker Loverich, but deleted everything related to Parker Loverich on their website as well as everything is off LinkedIn and Twitter with their name. Uh and Sports Illustrated has said that the deleted content's been produced by an independent publisher, but that Parker Loverich is a real reporter. Uh and we uh once we became aware of a violation of our guidelines, we immediately took steps to address this violation, including cutting ties to the publisher. There's been no I just thought this was such a weird and interesting look into just the flagrant uses of AI that the average person might go unsee. Do you do you think people do it thinking, well, there's no way we'll get caught Yeah, I. do But a place like that, yeah, now that's just a r it's just a mill. Like they don't I think they probably just have to yeah. They're like we have to publish like twenty things today. We're not gonna pay freelancers, so let's just plug every story we've got we think it's interesting into chat GPT or Claw or whatever and have it rewrite it. Right. Yeah. I mean if a guy put out a book that had that was kind of making up quotes and didn't think somebody was gonna see it in a book that's all that's a book about AI in truth. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a book about lies made by AI had lies made by AI. That thinks it can get away with that stuff. And they and they and they often don't. I mean I always wonder you know there's always the story of the I always worry because I'm a small business of the accountant who comes in and embezzles millions of dollars from a small business thinking that oh we'll never get caught. But of course they're gonna get of course. Eventually you're gonna eventually it's time to balance the books. Yeah. Yeah. Jeff, pick of the week. All right . Well no, we're gonna I'm gonna mention first uh a legitimate one, which is Axios on media valuations, digital media valuations, buzzfeed now sold, um lost eighty six percent of its value. It it was at it's C Net lost even more from one point seventy five billion down to a hundred million. Wow. BICE down ninety-three percent and so on. So that's a legitimate one. Just kind of digital media. Bye-bye. Now, I was going to give you a choice here between something good and something bad, but because you already use the Pope, I have no choice. I you have no choice. I have no choice to uh to bring you to sperm racing . Wait a minute. The lowest of the low in Silicon Valley has now occurred. A San Cisco biotech startup races sex cells on top Oh boy. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, this is awful. The whole story is obnoxious and terrible. It's it's you know, give young men money and what are they gonna do but jerk off? But But the worst part of it to me is that the New York Times writer decided to enter his little boys So wait a minute. Does this company offer this as a service? Like, can you benchmark my uh little voice complete the sentence. I don't know how to finish it. Uh it's all this is all part of the um you know macho uh uh male crap that's going on now, testosterone and all that. And so now they're also saying, you know, one person says that sixty per he his sperm, like sixty percent is dead, then right . For me, everything's dead. Just rotten inside. So they're trying to look up, you know, they're they're they value their masculinity as their testosterone and sperm. It's just it's just obnoxious and stupid. And the New York Times. A company is valued at fifty million dollars. Million dollars. It is a startup devoted to racing. This is from the New York Times, so it's okay to say this. Racing human sperm Okay, wait, wait, wait. Are these time trials or are they on the same track ? I I'm just curious about how technically this works. Uh question about methodology. Must be time trial. So it's time trial. They they don't put them all on the same track and say go and then you wouldn't know whose or whose . It'd be fun to watch if they did it that way . Click here to apply . I mean this is gonna tie into like uh into those gambling sites, right? Polymarket like who sperms the fastest it in a sense, says the New York Times, sperm racing aims to cut through the noise by reducing male vitality down to its absolute essence. Now, since I had a vasectomy more than thirty years ago, I think I am I can't compete. No I got no motivation my prostate surgery, so I'm out too. So Paris, it's up to you to win for the team. I'll I'll follow my sword. I'll find a way to make it work. Uh don't worry. Firm racing employees spend much of their time turning the races into video content . Don't you want to watch that? And then oh you want to know how they make money? They sell things like Andros , a line of plastic free boxer briefs and a pineapple flavored gummy called spermworms . Tagline Boost Your Bo ys . I could see a certain this is a certain demographic of Oh yeah. But it is it is ultimately Wow . What so uh there's a World Cup draw in front of a live audience drawing contestants from a hundred twenty-eight countries, a month-long single elimination tournament, over a hundred mat ches . They're gonna use AI to translate the commentary into any language. Um there's just something about this. It's fascinating somehow fascinating . As journalism I found it pretty disgusting . Yeah, it's pretty icky. Yeah. And And n you're not even saying like this proves absolutely nothing. Like who cares if yeah yours is faster? Like what what does that even mean? The fastest Well, I mean the f I guess the first to get there wins. But that's not how it works. That's not how it works. It isn't how it works. That isn't how that isn't how any of this works, actually. It isn't about the speed of the boys . It's about how much heart they have. Um Actually there's some recent evidence uh that the ova actually does some selection. Exactly. It's not the first one that meets the egg. It's not how it works. And there's some there's some interesting evidence about how the OVA makes its choice. It's actually very interesting. Well they are. Look at look at parents. Those of us have been married for any length of time know that. Okay, so So you asked Benito, so I gonna tell you. First, the team purifies the semen samples in a centrifuge, then they pipette the sperm into two parallel thirty eight hundred micron microfluidic racetracks edged into silicone chips. The chips are fabricated from molds in an ad hoc clean room set up next to the first floor bathroom. Okay, well that's a little detail I didn't read. The environment within the racetracks is designed to emulate the human reproductive system. In a process known as rho taxis, the sperm move against a steady flow of warm fluid that mimic it mimics cervical mucus . I'm sorry. I didn't think I'd be saying that today. Like salmon swimming upstream, they cling to the walls of the track to avoid the central current and maintain their sense of direction . On these tracks, however, oh no., it's hard The sperm encounters unnatural obstacles, tight sections, sharp corners, and pillars that separate the best from the rest . then they so it turns out the videos aren't that good. So they put it through 3D generation software, which transforms it into the footage the audience sees on screen. In the final cut, two or more competitor sperm are shown in different colors jostling for position on the same track. They make it cool to watch like F one, said one of the principals. F something. I hope they uh have teams uh names and stuff like that, right? Oh, the best show title of all time was just put in there . Yeah. Yeah, I probably shouldn't use that as a show title. I don't think anybody would download the show. Pretty funny though. I agree. Uh you know it's exciting. As the channels opened and the sperm flooded the chamber, Cataldi resumed his role as an announcer. He took an early lead with a single sperm R1 darting ahead. I'm cooking him, he said. But soon my L one and L two racers were pulling up alongside his. My guy is completely lost, he shouted at the scream. As my first sperm crossed the finish line, his was still stuck at the halfway mark. The whole thing lasted just sixteen seconds. It was a blowout. This is the New York Times reporter, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I got sperm mogged, he said . Oh man. Uh Paris, you gonna become a lesbian? Uh who wants to get near a man? Who wants to get anywhere near a man? This is such a guy thing. This is it's exactly what you think guys Too much money. They say actually eighteen years old. It's actually the entire history of the male uh experiment has been leading up to uh a guy saying This is this is where we've been heading uh all along. It's intelligent machines after dark, a saucier podcast. Smart talk, bold ideas, late nights, bright minds. I like it . It's a good idea. Uh and by the way, wouldn't you be proud to be an investor? Joe Lonsdale has invested in this ? Well, you know, uh you can't you can never go wrong underestimating the gullibility of the American people. That's true. In the words of P. T. Barn um. Never give a sucker an even break. Don't say sucker . Ladies and gentlemen, on that sorted note, we must wrap the show with apologies to Paris Martineau and anybody listening today. Sorry, Paris. Paris Martineau is at Consumer Reports. This is one not to play for your co-workers. Correct. Our website, Paris.nyc. It has cooled off in New York City. I think you should go out and get a shawarma. We have lost twenty degrees during the recording of this twenty one degrees during the recording of this. That's how it's supposed to be. Love that . Love that . Thank you, Paris. No gizmod ance uh today, sorry to say. Don't tell her that. Actually that's probably why she's been so annoying. She's living a mid-life crisis. Ours is just a teenager still. What a wee lass Jeff Javis is uh professor emeritus of journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark Graduate School of Journalism at the City University of New York . Author of a fabulous book called Hot Type: The Magnificent Machine That Gave Birth to Mass Media: The Story of the Linotype and Desktop publishing and electronic publishing. It's really a good book. And it unfortunately you'll I I have a galley, you'll have to wait until August to read it . Um Thank you both of you. Appreciate your time. Thank you to all of you listening. We do this show every Wednesday, 2 p.m. Pacific, 5 p.m. Eastern, 2100 UTC. You can watch it live in the Club Twit Discord if you're a member. Otherwise, everybody's invited to watch on YouTube , Twitch, X, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Kick. After the fact on-demand versions of the show, available at the website, audio or video, or and video. You could do both at uh twit.tv There's a YouTube channel dedicated to the video. Great way to share clips, and of course, best way to do it is subscribe in your favorite podcast client. If you are a club member, new benef it , uh, and you use your club feed , which is the ad-free feed that we send you when you join the club, you will get chapter markers listening in uh a compatible player. We recommend, I think, pocket casts. So you can skip right to the sperm racing? You could skip right to the sperm racing. You could just play it over and over again if you'd like. That's not fair. We're not trying to make you join the club, although I wish I could. It is because people who can have ad supported versions, uh many of our shows have uh direct ad insertion after the fact and different people get different ads of different lengths. So there's no way we can do the chapter markers because we don't know the timing. There are no uh time codes in the show. Yeah, I I thought that was kind of interesting. So it's uh w we could do chapter markers, but they would rapidly become uh inaccurate. There the only way to do them accurately is in an ad-free version. So that's why it is uh just for you club members, but it is a good benefit. Thanks everybody. Have a wonderful evening. I can't believe we gotta wait a whole week before the next Intelligent Machines, but do be here for that. We'll see you then. Bye-bye. Hey everybody, uh Leo Laporte here, and uh I'm gonna bug you one more time to join Club