Google's Live Translation and Future Outlook

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff's here. Paris is back, our guest this week, Jeffrey Canell. He is the founder of News Research. They've created a new agent I live with. I ' cmrazy about. We'll talk about Hermes and a lot of other things, including the new Fable model, what Apple's proposing with Siri, it's gonna be a big intelligent machine. We even talk about Paris's article about food safety and the pepper cannon all coming up next on intelligent machines . Podcasts you love from people you trust . This is Twitter This is Intelligent Machines with Paris, Martinau and Jeff Jarvis, episode eight hundred and seventy four, recorded Wednesday june tenth, twenty twenty six . Google knows I love the pepper cannon. It's time for intelligent machines to show we cover the latest in robotics, AI and the smart dood ads all around us. We are so happy to have Paris Martina back . She has emerged from the trenches of the big expose she's been writing at Consumer Reports, which came out yesterday . It's true . Are you relaxed? I'm relaxed. I'm sleeping a normal amount of hours a night . I sat in the sun yesterday. It's delightful. Talk about this hostess don't I did not have any hostess don'ts and we can talk about why after we have a wonderful interview . All right , we'll save that . And yes, and I actually made one of the pics of the week be something that you worked with for this. So we'll talk about that in just a little bit. Parisr, of course, um Conserort Reps investigative reporter in food safety. Always great to have you here. Jeff is here as well. Jeff Jarvis, journalistic professor, let's see, let me get this right Emeritus Professor of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig New mark. University of New York . He is also the author of Hot Type, which comes out in a couple of months. Yeah, but you can pre order now at the audio book last week. Yay . So you can order that too. Congratulations . I am thrilled to have a returning guest this week. Jeffrey Canell, he is the f ounder and former CEO of News Research, now CTO . He's kind of stepped back into the research role . Really wonderful to talk to you again. Jeffrey, love talking to you then, but you were cagey. You did not tell us about a little something that you had in the lab . Yes. When we had you on, we were talking about your models. You have some really interesting models like Psyche . But it turns out you also had an agent running in the labs. And the story I read, which I think came from you , is that you saw open clawed how it took out off in January and you said, you know , our thing is actually better . So in February you released something called Hermes . By March , I was using it full time. I am madly in love with Hermes. It is exactly what I want . He has been obnoxiously in love. He has been elegically in love . It is exactly what I want with an agent. It's robust, it's powerful . It's easy to use. I'm running it through a third party web UI, which I really like. Just this week you released that dedicated application for it for Windows Mac . And is there a Linux version too? It runs on the yeah. So but I like I happen to like the webUI. That's one of the things that's great about news research. You're fairly agnostic about those kinds of things. There's a command line and a twoi as well. You also are very and the reason I like it very agnostic about models because right now, for instance, I'm running this on my I have a central server. It's a framework desktop. I think we talked about that last time. And I'm running Quen three thousand six hundred thirty five B on it in a local fully, local model has my agentic model. Hermes is smart enough to delegate harder jobs to others . But Quen writings quite well. So this is fully local at this point and I'm blown away so much so that my wife who saw me playing with Hermes and got jealous, said, can I have a profile to? It's one of the great things that you've divorced Claude. Yes. marriage is Just saying called Quicksilver after Hermes, right? But hers is called Rosie . And it so it has all the skills we share the skills, but her own memory. Does Rosie or yourat c know that her name has been co opted and perverted into an AI? No, but I don't think she really cares, frankly . The good thing is it's also Rosie the robot from the Jetsons, so it's a problem in two ways. One of the things I like about Hermes is it's really a battery included agent. It has more than ninety skills come with it . It's very powerful. You have a choice of memory models , including I turned on hindsight, but there's Honcho, there's a bunch of different choices. It's very easy to enable . And it's just super wonderful in every respect. So I just wanted to start by saying thank you for releasing it. It's funny that you had it all that time. When did you start using it? We started probably sometime in December. And I mean, I've told the story a few other places, but I'll give the quick recap, which is just that we were looking for ways to, you know, supercharge our model development. You know, we are not as well and hugely funded as a company companies like Anthropic and Open AI, so we always have to look for these like thousand X increases, you know, that are going to allow us to compet e with the with the bigger boys. And so we were like, let's try to see if we can get an RSI loop going, well, RSI being recursive self improvement, right? So we said, well, to have that, we need to have some sort of scaffolding harness that can learn as it goes. And we built Hermes agent intern ally for our post training team to work on model stuff. And it kind of was one of those things where, I guess, maybe when you swim in it all the time, like we've always known AIs can do stuff like this and have used it like this. So it was kind of like a water fish don't know they're in the water kind of situation . And when Open Claw came out and it suddenly was having, you know, massive penetration into like everyday people's lives use cases, we really were just like, hey, we have this thing that we think is just as good . And we didn't really position it as like a competit or or put it out there because we even ourselves weren't quite sure what the reception would be . So we put it out there and you know, immediately it just, you know, was like PMF unlike anything that we'd ever seen before. And like people were just coming in and loving it. And so we stayed close to the community, we listen to what people wanted every day. We use sort of the asymmetric power of these models now to be able to scale up the development because we can now, you know, theoretically hire like a thousand , you know, engineers all at once to work on it if we're willing to pay for it. And you know, we've been just ship, ship, ship, keep an eye towards the users, keep an eye eye towards, like you said, being agnostic about use cases, really allowing people to develop things and let it mold it to themselves because you mold it to yourself, you really come to love it, right? Like in a sense that it is, you know, you built it up to what it is and now it's extremely useful for you. It's so personalized to me now because of all the memory over the over the months . one hundred ninety thousand stars on GitHub. I mean, I think you're under selling the success. It is now more stars than VS code it is an incredible success . And I think people who are using OpenClaw look at it and go, this is much more stable, doesn't have the security issues that OpenCalw has because there's no Hermes marketplace, right? There's no third party marketplace for skills because Hermes writes its own skills . Yep . So that was the types of self improvement I would say like unlock that we had was like looking at the dynamic skill creation and the curated local memory was kind of like the unlock that we innovated on that turned it into what it is now. And sort of the first time you see it do this thing where you're using it, you're solving a hard problem , and then it creates a skill automatically from that. And then the next time you try to do something in there, it just instantly happens because it knows the best way to do it. And it knows your way to do it, you know? Like whatever your flow happens to be, we're going to it'll build up dynamically over time. We like to say hermeization, it gets better, the more you use it, right? And so if that's the case, the more you use it, it gets better . People have yeah, people have loved it. So yeah, like you said, one hundred ninety thousand stars . We released our own desktop app last week after we were we demoed it on stage. Jensen did it. Oh, yeah, let's not forget Jensen Wang giving you a big plug of compute that was there, right? Yes, I was there. I was there. I got met him later and talked to him. He's a great guy And so we've released the desktop app. We've been working with NVIDIA and Microsoft with on the RTX Spark, which was the laptop that they announced. We been' worveking on that . And so we released the desktop. I think we got we've had about like one point five million dollars loads of that. So it's been a huge success and we're really trying to like, you know, the goal of Noose always was to bring what this transformational technology to as many people as possible in an open way. In the opening isn't it? Yeah , in which way that was going to go, I think we always were feeling for around what it was. And now that we've sort of found that place that's good, we're having a just having a blast, you know, take it going along for the ride. It just shows that good guys can win. One of the reasons I broke up with Anthropic is I was mad at their policy that you had you couldn't use your subscription with anything but clawed code . One of the things that Hermes does is pretty cool is if I need a challenging programming job and I want to use code, it will automatically launch clawed code or open AI's Codex , do the programming in there. I don't even see the command line , put it back in Hermes. So it's the best of both worlds . It uses the open AI API. So every model except Claude works fine . You can use Claude API tokens, and if you're going to use Fable, you're going to have to in a couple of weeks. We're certainly going to talk about that. You better go looking under the under the pillows for some dollars. ten dollars in and thirty dollars out is a lot of money. Deep seek deep sick. Well, and this is why I'm using Quen now and I'm actually really impressed. But News has its own and I do have a new subscription. You have a twenty dollar a month subscription. You don't have max and Pro subscriptions , which give you access to, I think, like it's one hundred and twenty models, some huge number of models. Yep. several different like inference providers to bundle it all together. What's nice about the new subscription as well is it also includes all the tools. So you got web search, image search, text to speech, all of that sort of stuff comes with it as well . And so it's not just it's sort of the external tools that you otherwise would have had to go get API keys for. We sort of bundle the best in class versions of all of those together and they're served alongside with a new subscription. So that's one thing that's useful about it too. It's kind of like the open router model, right? Are you routing it yourself, orchestrating it yourself or use it? Yeah. So we do use open router in behind the scenes for some of the models. So we have like our own open router layer essentially that routes it to different people. We for the for different like when we did a deal with Kimmy or some of the other ones, they give us special access to their inference platform. So behind the scenes we have sort of our own open router style model routing thing as well. Yeah. Yeah, as you can see, I have quite a big balance I've built up because I appreciate it , but it's great because it allows me to test and try a huge variety of models. One of the things I have hermes do every week is go out and look at all the models and pick them for the delegation so that it can , you know, images, it can choose the best image model, which I think probably is still nano banana for coding. It could be image two is pretty good. GP image two is pretty good. Yeah, yeah, there's there's some really good stuff out there. I've been using GPT five . But I started a couple of days ago to use the local model and I'm actually pretty surprised. It turns out, I think a lot of people are realizing this. We've all been focused on models and model strength , but the harness , the stuff around it may be equally important. And if you built something really good with something like Hermes , you don't necessarily need the smartest model to do ninety percent of what you want to do. Yeah. And a lot of it, I think, you know, there's a world where even if like we froze all our models today, we could like still squeeze a lot more juice out of 'em. The hardest thing is very interesting to me because like this unlock happened because of sort of this invisible wall that got that got passed with the models. Like it kind of started around when Opus four point five came out . But there was just this period where all of a sudden the models got good enough, good enough at long context to really take in the huge amount of, you know, stuff we put around to direct the model and to, you know, use tools effectively. Like there was just kind of this invisible line that was crossed about six months ago . That's really an emergent property of the models, right? Yes, they train, they train in it someone, but like the fact that we were able to like get such useful improvements out of the models without changing them at all, just one more thing about how actually amazing the actual models are. This is in a way what Apple talked about on Monday. And what I think they intend with Siri because Siri will have memory, it will have all the context from your phone that that in a way that what they're building is an agentic series . They're not going to say that out loud, but it but I think people are going to have this experience of using an AI is so much better when it understands your context, understands unit, knows about unit has some history with you. But then there's this big issue because if you're using one of the frontier models, if you're using Chat GPT or anthropic , it's going to get a lot of information about you . And I think people are very nervous about that . And we try to do this in Hermes by having the ability to have sessions where you can segment things out yourself. Like, you know, it really puts you in control. I mean, yes, they're making an agentic serial. It'll be interesting. Apple's sort of play here is very interesting to me because they sort of sat out the race of AI for the last however many years. You know, when maybe like the default thought would be, oh, if you're a tech company in SF or like you got to have your own AI division, you got to be making your own model. And they sort of sat out and have now sort of like surgically decided to strike at some, you know, specific might have been a good strategy as, it turns out, right? They don't miss it. Depends that they succeed, but they definitely save themselves, you know, two hundred billion dollars CapEx, you know what ? Yeah . Exactly. And they're riding on Google's Gemini investments and so forth. So they're not all alone , but they have their own foundation models. Tell me a little bit about your own models about News Research's models. So right now we have our old class Hermes models, which were sort of the old paradigm where they weren't agentic. So we're working right now on training new versions of our models that will be agentic right now. So we don't actually have any of our own models that we ship that are for Hermes agent yet, but we're working on it. We actually also recently joined the Neatron Coalition . So we have NVIDIA model. Yeah. Nvidia's NVIDI's open source training model. And because really the question is like, if you think about like fully open source models, you know, fully foundation, full LLM from pre training all the way through, you know, the money keeps going up, the money keeps going up. And there is a question about like who is aligned to even like do that in open source anymore. Right? Like when it was these seven B models that we were training, you know, your early llamas like, you could sort of justify it as as a like a marketing cost or something like that, you know, but what happened with Meta and these other places that basically said we're not going to do it anymore. And functionally, the only companies that are doing open source training in the world anymore are the Chinese companies, right? I remember you saying the last time you were on, you were very nervous because of Meta might pull back llama at any moment. Yep. They still haven't. But now they haven't. They never they're not training Meta Lamafi though. You know, there's no intention of open sourcing anything, right? Yeah. So at this point, we sort of are in that future. And I think NVIDIA is one company that sort of credibly could put money into open source and have it still be aligned with the business, right? Because whether more models, more tokens just means more NVIDIA chips that are getting bought, right? So I think there's a way that it really makes sense there. So we're working with NVIDIA to like steer the direction of American open source and try to get foundation models out that are fully open source. I will say Quen three point six three six B quite amazing. The fact that they scot as much of that into a thirty six B it was really like I wouldn't have thought it was possible to be honest with you they really did do a great job with her . Suggested turning on and I can't remember the acronyms, a number of features , flash features and so forth to make it faster, more responsive. Hermes actually helped me tune Quin. I'm using Lama CP, and it says okay use these settings and it helped me tune it quite a bit and I was amazed at how much faster and better the time to first token improved everything is better . So there is there is a lot you can do with a local model I think. it And's really important privacy is for privacy and other reasons. Cost is another reason. There's going to be we're seeing this with Fable and we see it with Mythos that these high end models, yes, they're very, very good, but they're very, very expensive. Only billionaires can afford them. How do you know when you need to use that quote unquote hayette ? I think that's still an open question really, and that's something that I think ought to be explored more also, even on the harness side. We're working on model routing to dynamically be able to switch between models at different tiers and adaptively do it because you know there you don't need Opus tokens or fable tokens to like move a file around, right? Now there's all these questions about how do you actually pull that off? Do you invalidate the cash context if you switch between models? So it's a little bit of a hard problem, but certainly, you know, at the prices we're talking about now, only well funded business es can really afford to allow people to use frontier models as their daily driver if they're doing any sort of heavy work. And even there started there kind of like token the token cost. We're talking to Jeffrey Canal. He am I saying right Canal do you don't say yes . Jeffrey Kennell of News Research . He is the well, it's an interesting story. It kind of co founder it was a discord server where you had a lot of people very interested in this idea some years ago, a couple years ago and formed a company around it. You've got venture funding now, right? Is that right ? Yep . And what would you say your primary business now? Is it Hermes or is it Models ? Absolutely. It's Hermes and figuring out ways that we can make that be profitable to the company. We have a huge user install base, but we're trying not to be extractive, you know, yeah, we and that's why and you do, but like we also offer open router and all these other things because we're not going to A, we're not going to force you into something that's like extractive. We want newsportal to be the best place for you to experience Fermies, but we want to allow you to run your local model if you want to run, you know, local models and set it up with Honcho if you want to set it up with Honcho and all those other places. So we're going to, you know, kind of give an offering right now that is sort of our best class version of it, but still offer always offer the freedom to configure in your own case in however you want. When I emailed you, I asked you to, I said, if you want to bring technium along with you, is Technium the lead developer on Hermes? Yes. He's the lead developer on Hermes. And it's really, you know, I was a little shy. He didn't want to hear a little shy. Yeah, he doesn't like to get on the camera. But here's the thing about tech . You know, he is not did not go to school for CS and was not a coder at all. Like did not really know Python, did not know anything at all. And from like a coding perspective , and he built Hermes agent, all right? Now the number one vibe coated? Yeah, all completely all with yeah, not yeah, not vibe coding, but he is now like he knows how to I would say what he does is like many levels above vibe coding, you know? I follow him on X and he's very valuable to follow. Highly recommended super smart. He really knows how to articulate what he wants . He has a vision for the product of what he wants it to be. He just didn't have the technical , he didn't go to computer science school, you know, and he just never learned that . So it's really amazing now that we live in this time where like one of the biggest applications on the planet right now, you know, was written by someone who was not a developer, right? Like and so that's the picture in lock, right? Because it used to be gated behind people who had to go to school in a specific way. Like it just goes to show like how transformational these technology technolog this y really can be, and how enabling it can be of people who previously just for some reason or other wouldn't have been able to do something. It allows everyone to bring their ideas to life. And if you have a great idea and you're someone who really is exacting on what you want, you can now make it happen when the circumstances of your life previously may have made it so that you couldn't have. That's the future of this, isn't it? Yeah, Jeff, you're going to say the same thing. This is what technology brings us . Tech is really good also at listening and half the time somebody will tweet at him and he'll say merged And that's the thing is to be successful, you just have to be obsessive about the customer. You have to be obsessive about wanting everyone to be happy and stuff. And if you're willing to be obsessive and he is, he's sixteen hours a day, seven days a week, like he loves the product. And that's a huge piece of why we've been able to be successful. Here's an example from earlier today . Somebody says I work on Gemini at Google. Added a few text to speech features to Hermes and Technium's responses merged , which means we get it. We all get it, which is fantastic. This is one of the things I love about Hermes is you don't have to use all the skills, they don't take up context. They're just there on the hard drive . But when you say and you can say this to Hermes, you know, is there any way for me to scan through stuff on X and Hermes will walk you through it and suddenly you have a whole new capability and that's very powerful. Go ahead, Paris. I'm sorry. Oh, I was going to say I know originally a focus for new research was the Solana blockchain that was kind of central. Is that still something that is central to your guys' operations? Well, we're not working on it right now. We've sort of had to shift a lot of our focus just we only have so many people and like when you have that many people, like that many PRs we have, we've kind of had to like jury rig the whole ship over and try to like focus it on Hermes agent. So we're focusing pretty much everything we are right now in Hermes agent. I mean, I think our experiments on Solana were completely still well . There were experiments we were trying to figure out how can we incentivize model trinic training and make it work? And I think we've just sort of shifted that into this next domain with working with NVIDIA and like trying to find the right answer for how can we still bring true open source models to market? Just you did mention and it seems to be a capability. I can in the middle of session. At any turn, I can change models and it seems to be able to pick up the session. It also has a memory of all the sessions and I can go back to a session and that now becomes part of the context and continue on with the conversation . These little things, little quality of life things like this make this incredibly useful. Hermione's agent is now a hundred percent written with Hermes agent, you know? So that's what we use every day to build it. So all those sorts of you know, if you have to use it all the day to build this complicated thing, you want to copy all of this . You get able to do it . So we were talking earlier when you joined us and I see behind you it looks like a picture from the Cystine ceiling. Am I right? That is actually the transfiguration by Raphael. It's Rapp hael. It's his final painting. It actually was unfinished when he died . And actually people thought it was so good. They like put it next to his casket when he had their funeral, like the unfinished one. It actually sits behind the pope at one of the churches in Rome , the original, but that is that one is actually Raphael. Yeah. Well, and I know Jeff was on last Sunday when Father Robert was with us, our favorite Jesuit and we've been talking a lot about the pope's encyclical . It was all about AI. In fact, Pope Leo took here . There it is . I made a song section two today and wrote a wrote a long post out of it. It's a fascinating document. I think it's a fraud. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think of it, Jeffrey? Practicing Catholic? Yeah, yeah, I mean, it was really, you know, I was maybe I was a little bit like I wasn't nervous but I was like, what is this going to say? What is this going to say? And you know, the encyclical is meant to survive the test of time. You know, this is part of the church's official position in its role as teacher in speaking with the magisterium. And so these sorts of things have to live on, you know, forever . And so what the Holy Father did was not so much say, Here's where I is right, here's where AI is wrong, this is what is more, what is a framework on how to think about this, right? It was a framework on how to think about these sorts of questions in the modern age. And it really is even more than just artificial intelligence. I would even call it an encyclical on modernity, whatever you want to call it, you know, in twenty twenty six, right? Like what is the state of the world in twenty twenty six? And there are all these new challenges that hyper capitalism and post work, whatever you want to call it kind of stuff happening. What is the already established teaching of the church? How does it apply in this place? So for example , the word artificial intelligence actually only appears one time in like the first third of the document. He really goes to great lengths to like bring forward what Catholic social teaching has said over the previous years. You know, how Catholic social teaching was applied during the Industrial Revolution, how was it applied during these other sort of changes in human society? And then bring it to the forefront and just really say that the purpose of any technology is to improve improve the cause of humanity on Earth, right? And if these tools help make us better humans, they make us more drawn to what our cause is and enable us to do that more , then absolutely all the good. You know, and I think highlighting that there is both good and there are both things to watch out for. And here's sort of a framework, you know , a preferential treatment for the poor, for example. You know, it's part of Catholic social teac hing. And we have to make sure that when we're making these sorts of models exactly, you know, we're not creating it's a joke on Twitter, but like, you know, the permanent AI underclass, right? Of like the people who get access to Fable and the top Isn't it? a reality yeah . Yeah. And so we just have to like, you know, those are the sorts of things that we need to look out. What is the ultimate destination of all goods? It's the common cause of all humanity. And so he goes through building it all up. So I was extremely happy with how it came out. There are several places in it. There are actually only says there's several things he says that are about the ontolog ical status of artificial intelligences. You know, it's the church's position that they aren't alive, they don't, you know, feel love and stuff like that. It's paragraph ninety nine is like kind of like the one that really goes into that . Even though Yeah . And but it really goes in say to like here's some onthological claims, but also goes so far as to say but the real disposition of these still is the purview of academia and research and that science is something that can be used to solve these problems and there's no reason not to use science to investigate and solve these problems. I love that. Don't tell me what you were hearing from your fellow technologists about it. Did they pay attention to it? Yes, they absolutely did pay attention to it. It was was, you know, it kind of not shocking to me, but like I live in kind of this Catholic bubble, you know, sometimes it feels like . And so for the fact that a lot of people who were, you know, not in that bubble were still taking what the church was saying seriously in this, you know, led credence that the church still, you know, exists in some sort of moral authority throughout the world, you know ? And it was happy to see it. And I would say it was extremely well received by everyone else, because it wasn't this, AI is evil. Can't do it. Don't stop , you know, putting it sort of like that. It was just, hey, here's how to think about it in a way that improves human flourishing across the board. I would be remiss, Jeffrey, if I didn't ask you a little bit about your particular hermes installation. What models are you using these days? I mean, I was a big Stem, a big OPI for eight fan and four Only because I think I learned how to write, you know, Ragglem pretty good . GPD five actually, to me, is super unwieldy. I know a ton of people love it, but to me, I find it very unwieldy. So it's really me, I just have sort of developed a rapport with four eight. I know how it's going to think. And so I use I use Fore eight a lot for that . I mean, I started using Fable Your not using a sub though, you're using API . So I use Newsportal, which has FORAIN, you can pay on it. That's when you 're running that gets the um metered account that I can set as many jokes as I want. So have you added Fable to the portal yet? Yes, we added Fable yesterday. I actually have only used it a little bit because just I've kind of been doing a podcast circuit today with everything with Fable coming out. So I haven't been able to form like too many feelings about it. What I will say about it is that what anthrop ic has said about the LLM research and open source research in the space is, you know, greatly concerns me as someone who cares a lot about that . And so I'm sort of at my own kind of like existential, do I really want to keep supporting this kind of company's life? Same for Samuel Bucklings more buckling. . So with the release of, you know, first of all, they did this whole security theater thing, which, you know, every model company does. If you remember , they after GPT , GPT, you know, open AI said, we have to keep the weights for GPT closed. It's just too dangerous, right? You know, which is now would be that was Dario working at OpenAI who said that. So yeah, yeah. Yeah. So it's so playbook. Yeah, yeah. It's so playbook. It's like not, you know, it's so dangerous. We can't release it, except of course we can, you know, we're the ones who'll get to do it. And then eventually you release it, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. So, they did this whole security theater thing with Methos ine, no doubt that it really is world class, it's the best AI on the planet right now . And then with Fable, they finally said, well, we're going to be able to release it because we've included all these extra guardrails on there , including two sets of things that it does. So it used to be there always were guardrails on clawed. And if you hit it, what would happen is it would just, well there was two levels. There was the AI would say, I'm sorry, I can't help you with it. If it says that, then it was actually like from the training data, like the AI emergently refusing to do it because it was trained not to say certain things. They had a second layer, which is this classifier layer, which is actually looking, which is a different model that's sort of sitting there babysitting all the tokens and is making a judgment call of like is this thing this getting out of whack you know? Is this not doing what we want? And if you hit the classifier, what happens is the response just stops. Like you just get an empty response from just API just returns like nothing bas,ically. No refus al, it just returns nothing. So this was how the safety stuff worked before the previous OBS models. Fable, they've changed it now to where it has a new detection mechanism where it will actually downgrade you out of Fable back to Opus four point eight. If it detects you doing, I believe the categories were like chemical research , cybersecurity research, biology, some of these like high leverage sort of things where you could imagine there could be a bad application of it, but there's also a million unknown good applications for it, I'll say. And it'll kick you back to Opus four point eight. But the more insidious thing that they've done , which is if you are doing research on AI, particularly LLM research on AI , they won't actually kick you back to Opus four point eight . They have new mechanisms that will silently degrade the quality of the responses and like literally like lie to you like not tell you what it knows and like they literally like inject a dumb vector into the AI training at runtime to like dumb down the model to keep you from being able to do frontier level AI research. Like to keep people from doing distillation attacks. They've complained about China for instance. I mean , you know, you can you can make any reasoning out of your own about why they might have done it. You know, I could it could be distillation ? Absolutely. Could it be, I mean, they don't want distillation because they don't want anyone competing with them, right? So like at the end of the day, the real argument is competition. But this is like a whole new Pandora's box that hadn't been opened before, where like we are going to actively sabot age the token stream to keep you from getting access to something it already could have done and that we're doing internally as well, right? Like they're using it to do frontier level research, but we're going to actively sabot it. Iag doned't know if you guys are familiar with it, I'm sure you are the three body problem, you know, the sophons that literally this is literally like the plot of the three body problem where they send these things in to like sabotage scientific research to like keep the keep humans, you know, from, you know, advancing too quickly until their ships can get here. So it's pretty much the same thing and it's something that I think all of us in the open source community really feel like somewhat of a red line has been like crossed here because they're now saying that like they've always sort of said they didn't want open source AI to exist, but like they're now literally using their position in the market to like go and sabotage open source air. Like literally sabotage it first even just classifying refusal. It's not even just refusing. It's like we're going to actively sabotage it. And that just seems to me like what do we what are we doing here people? I mean as much as you want to say it o,h anthropic was they've done a ton of work, but they also exist because people open source transformers. People open source open, you know, there's a huge amount of open science that started all of this and to sort of pull the ladder up, you know, the second you guys got to some level just seems incredibly if I may quote Elon misanthropic. Speaking of pulling the ladder up, Jeffrey, what about their recent push to say OK, once we once we've finished our model and once we've gone to one IPO, now every develop allment should stop. That dumage. We want to pause, yes. What did you think about that? I can't imagine that would fly because if cheat open AI eclipsesse f'able GPD five six or something , I think they would actually be like in violation of their fiduciary duties to the shareholders to like, you know, like go and stuff. Yeah . Like you could do it as a private company actually but it's like a public company. It's a little bit of a different like question because like you're liable now to do what's in the best interest of the common shareholders. And the common shareholders are like people who want their value of their shares to go up and there isn't really a planet where they pause their AI and other people continue and like their company gets more valuable. So I mean I don't know about how this work on the public market, but famously something we hear a lot from people who like hold shares of anthropologic employees. They note that there's a clause in their contracts that basically says we reserve the right to totally tank the value of all of your shares based on these specific principles. And I wonder if that sort of mind set is even possible to fly in the public markets . Yeah . That's a good question. So of course, some of this is powered by the fact that Anthropic and Open AI and SpaceX, for that matter, all pursuing IPO's this year . Now, admittedly, NVIDIA has its own financial interests , but it sounds like you believe that they support open models because they're going to make money on the hardware anyway. It's about Quda and it's about their GPUs more than at the end of the day that has to run on an NVIDIA chip, you know, that is better. They're okay with that's kind of why I think like they're the only company like that could marshal enough resources to actually pull off like some of these foundational open source models, where it would still be in line with their still in line with their bills. They still make money. Yeah , yeah. Yeah. What I don't like about it is CUDA is proprietary and it means Apple's MLX technology and it means my Rock technology on my AMD processor are not compatible . To me Open means it should work on a variety of hardware that shouldn't be hardware specific , but these are such expensive models to build that I understand there's you've got to consider the cost of building it and you've got to consider what you get to the billions of dollars like you got to yeah so this is a tough challenge. I mean, you're pursuing open models, right? Yes, yes, absolutely. Through that. How do you make that work financially? So we're going to be relying on the Neematron Coalition's access to the GP Us to do it, right? So Jensen is sworn as not sworn, but you know, he's he's told you know, the coalition that over the next two years, the NBI is going to commit fifteen to twenty five billion dollars for for this this purpose, right? So that's that's quite a lot, you know, and that gets you to the frontier level of like training resources. So yeah, I mean , it doesn't mean you can run it locally is the issue. I mean, I'm right now in Ematron three hundred twenty and B is free . I can run it through your open router connection and run it through. And I presume it's a big model. It's a powerful model. Yeah. I have to run on the cloud. I can't run it locally. Yeah rele,as theyed just a Nematron Ultra, which is their five hundred and fifty B . So there's three. There's Nano, Subar and Ultra. I mean, yes, unfortunately , I mean, I think you've seen that there are there's a world where small models can still do BJ drivers for local source. Steep Seaks very good. Quen's very good. Yeah. One way you can actually do this is through something called on policy distillation , where you train the giant huge model and then you like can like suck it down and compress it. You have a small model whose only job is to like learn the outputs of the other model and it just tries to mimic the outputs of the other model and it can bymosis like suck a lot of that information in. So I think there's a way where that always there. And with things like RTX sp andark like the DGX Spark, I think we could see that like the they have like a commitment at least to make that be a local inferno to be like a viable a viable path. Now as the models get bigger, you know, people who knows how big, you know, mythos is it could be the ten trillion it, could be as high as ten trillion parameters. They don't know. They don't tell us. Yeah, they don't tell us, but like, that scale is only going to continue to go up. Right. ten trillion two years from now. We're going to be talking about so like Nvidia's previous chips, you know, the current black wells were designed to run trillion parameter models, right? The current the next Varubens are going to be for ten trillion parameter class models and Feyman will be, you know, for one hundred trillion parameter class models probably. What did you think of Jesus Wong when you met him? Oh, he was a great guy. He was just he was a very down to earth, very joking with you, like, you know, very mod like this. Oh, look at me, I'm, you know, the CEO guy, very, very down to earth guy. Yeah. I didn't realize I was doing some research that you were you wrote the paper on yarn. That was your capability to kind of stretch context . It was one of the things. You know, this isn't a perfect example also where like the ability to go from four K to one hundred and twenty eight K was in many ways like a precursor to the egentic era that we have now, right? Like you can't do any of this if you're stuck at the old original transformer sort of limitations, right? Yeah . And that was done in the spirit of open science, right? Like we released it and OpenAI immediately started using it. Like everyone immediately started using it. And that was, you know, kind of in this collaborative open research thing. And so I would like to see things like that continue to still to still happen . Do you agree with the model that adding compute, adding these giant parameters will make it smarter that is this kind of an endless growth? Did you believe in the bitter less on? Are we pouring compute? It hasn't stopped. Everyone keeps thinking it's going to stop and it hasn't stopped. And you know, eventually you're going to start to , you know, parameter counts that are like somewhat in the order of like if you were to make a rubber a guess of like functionally the amount of neurons that are like inside of a human brain and stuff like that, which is somewhere around one hundred fifty to like two hundred trillion. Now there's a question whether these neurons like directly map functionally to like the amount of parameter. Like is a neuron doing just like a one in? We know they are. They do more than just like what a single parameter does. So it may not be like an exact comparison. They're also massively parallel in a way that you know Van Numan Machine Vanum machines are . So there's an open question, but it keeps going. Now having said that, I think there will always be the scale competition, which is can you scale it up and then can you run an equivalent thing smaller for less energy, right? Because while AI's are incredible in what they can do, they're like approximately a billion times less energy efficient than a human brain, right? Like your brain runs on like charitably thirty watts of power . You know, and it is like it's a two hundred trillion parameter model running on thirty watts of power, right ? Right now we need, you know, multiple kilowatts to run these, you know, to run one single instance of these trillion parameter models. So there's definitely like a literal two order of magnitude amount of energy efficiency that the AIs don't have. So that's another area to compete on. Jeff, can I ask him the question ? Go ahead. You know what question I'm gonna ask? Oh , so what do you think are these models conscious? I do not think they are conscious because I do not think that they have the experience that we have as humans. And that's what we really mean when we say conscious. We say , are you experiencing the world like I experience it, right? Yep. I mean, it gets down to the question of how do you know anyone other than your se islf conscious? Well, well you just say it looks like me, it talks like me enough , but also that it has the it has a common framework of understanding the world. I believe that it would grow up. I believe that it most person most likely had a mother and father or the people around us in the United States had the same cultural priors about that. It felt a certain way. It was probably made fun of it once, was sad , you know, it was hungry, was thirsty. All of these cultural experiential priors, I guess at that point that we assume we bring together Is there something that you can narrowly say there's a self reflective mechanism inside of AI's? Well, well, yeah, there's a self reflective mechanism in AIs, but you could argue that about like a for loop or something if you wanted to get like too close to it something that can like you know like so really it's like the experiential priors. We say when we say consciousness, the reason we don't have a good definition for consciousness because what most people really mean is it like me in the way that I think I am ? And whatever you can say about the outputs of models, they just scientifically did not undergo growth in the way that you and I went around . They don't even experience time the way we experience time, right? Like the common thing about all of us, which is that we're moving forward one second per second in this causal world where if we make a mistake, there's no rewinding time, there's no going back. Our choices are ours and ours alone and can never be undone by the relentless law of thermodynamics pushing us forward. That is just not the experienced world that an LM even is in, even if you want it to claim it has some sort of self reflective mechanism. So to me, I think consciousness is this whole bubble of like us and I just think quantitatively even it's not like us. So the answer is no. All right, here the other question go ahead Paris. Leo, what did you mean by that question? I don't know. I just thought I'd ask. I don't know . Are you conscious? I don't know. I think I'm conscious, but that's, you know, that's me saying it. So that's like what an all I would say, right? That's what an answer I would say. Yeah. The ancillary question, is AGI the goal And the ancillary ancillary question is what AGI? You mean by AGI? Well, I think that AGI we are in AGIs here is just unevenly distributed, you know What do I mean by AGI? I mean by AGI as as in good as humans at economically valuable tasks . At least that would be a narrower definition, right ? And so I think it's like a functionalist definition. Would you ever give money to a computer to do something that you could have given a human to do. And are you economically rational to make that judgment to have the computer do it, right? So obviously in places like coding right now, I would say the answer is we have AGI in coding. The latest coding models are better than the best programmers essentially. Now there are niches where pleat people, you know, have it. And often writing the code itself isn't like everything that it takes to bring the out come to market, right? Like what you really want when you write code is some other set of outcomes. You want a product that people use that has aesthetic matching to people's experience. Like there's some other hidden set of motivations, but it's sort of like the leak code style like programming like in a vacuum. Like the AGI's here for programming. Just can't even argue with it. And you only have to look at the best programmers who will tell you this too. And in other quantitative domains like math research , we're starting to see AGI being here. I know you probably have saw recently about the discovery of a solution to the unit distance problem that GBD five point five. You know, this is kind of I would say, I don't know if you guys remember growing up hearing about something called like the four color theorem, which was this original math result that was verified commentatorially on computers in the seventies. And it was kind of like the first time people were able to like use computers to solve some sort of unsolvable problem. And that was only because they just couldn't do exhaust. It could just do the exhaust force. Yeah. Yes. But just we didn't have enough people who would sit there and check hand by hand and not know when screwed up. But we're currently at sort of the four color theorem level right now in mathemat ics with unit distance problem, solving truly unsolved math problems. And you can listen to people like Terry Tow, who will tell you, yes, like it really is doing, you know, fundamental research in that area too. So in the quantitative domains, I think AGI is here for those. Now, if the definition of AGI is better than all humans at everything , I would say no . And again, that would be sort of like a no by definition because there are certain things that we value about humans that because of the way AI's are, they can never be that . And so like if you include that in the definition, then it's like toxologically false, you know? But for some sort of like functionalist AGI, where you look at some subclasses of things and say what I would I pay it to do this or is it better than all humans? I think we're we're getting there. And in the areas where we're not there in a quantitative domain, it's really just a matter of time . Geoffrey Queen, great to talk to you. I am so grateful to you for the work you do . Let's keep it open. Let's let people do their own thing. Let's keep the token budgets in line. And man, if you don't have an agent yet, you better download Hermes. Hermes Destines was a great way to start. Yeah. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. Glad to always catch up with the tech TV roots. Yeah. Jeffrey told me last time that I'm a little bit responsible for this . So I'm going to take credit to be . Thank you, Geoffrey. Thank you. We'll continue with intelligent machines and our assessment of Fable and a lot more in just a little bit right after this. This episode of Intelligent Machines brought you by Helix Sleep. Lisa and I about a year ago realized that it was time for a new mattress. You're supposed to replace your mattress. They wear out. Every, you know, six to ten years. Ours was eight years old, it was time. It really was. So we did a lot of research, we looked at all the websites, and we found Helix Sleep, and man, am I glad we did? A good night's rest, man, that's everything. 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I was going to take it personally, but she assures me it has nothing to do with my personality . It has to do with titanium dioxide in your ho host . That says a lot about your personality . Consumer reports it came out yesterday Dioxide not in hoho,' buts hosted donuts, mini powder donuts. Yeah. Well, I actually downloaded Yuuka so I could figure out what's in Hoho's, right? Everything. You want to know . So this was a thing you did with Yuka in conjunction. Hey, real quickly. Yuka's what I'm seeing your wi right now. Are you meaning your switch? Oh yeah, I did that on purpose. I thought I got you . There you go. No, I forgot to switch back This is you did this you how long have you been working on this? Like two or three months. Yeah it's been a big one. I mean so basically we this is an investigation we partnered with Yuka like Lev said , where essentially we tested forty different processed food products, different like popular grocery stuff for eight different additives and two processed contaminants that have been associated with health, like possible health issues depending on how much you consume and how frequently consume it. But the issue is with added, this is a kind of true par for the course for many, if not all additives allowed in US food , but the problem is even if something is permitted in US food, companies don't have to report either to the public or the government precisely how much is in every product that they're selling to you. So no one can really estimate what your exposure is to these additives and thus whether or not if you are a frequent consumer of these things, whether or not there's a potential health risk associated with that. So we bought a lot of these products, over one hundred twenty different samples of all of these products and sent them to like state of the art labs to test them for all of these different things. And then had our kind of team of scientists analyze what we found . And part of the reason why this project took so long is one, a lot of tech products tested for a lot of different things. So that meant we had to figure out a lot of different safety thresholds because you'll see in this article we have kind of a chart that we go into the actual amount of all the all the ten different additives and contaminants we found in all the products and kind of what that means for you in a very simple way . But the bulk of the text, like a nearly five thousand word story, is about how we even got to this situation at all . And it I mean, this has rolled most of my life over the last month, month and a half, certainly because I realized that the story of how, you know, part of like our top line findings were that we found that like eleven to fourteen products depending on your age and size like contain kind of a concerning amount of additives or contaminants and concerning in the sense that the amount in a single serving exceeds the amount that some public health agencies have identified as safe to consume daily. And that's just in one serving. And so I was like, how is this possible? And it turns out it's possible because of decades of compounding errors at the FDA and to the U. S.'s general approach to food additive safety and regulation that has led to a lot of these additives and substances being present being allowed to be present at much higher levels in US food products than European. Are you telling me I should consume very rarely Cheetos fl am hin'ot Cheetos . Yeah, the Cheetos was the standout fighting for me personally. I mean basically so the article Leo's looking at is a second one that we had our scientists calculate where it's like, all right what does this actually mean? How much should you how much is safe then? And we calculated different recommended limits to kind of keep you under this . You shouldn't eat more than one serving of hostess donut powder mini donuts per month . And that's three mini powder donut s. A month a month . Is that the type of oxide or mini oxidate? Well, that's it's interesting. So the kind of one of the standout things was these host donuts, mini powd donereduts. And we found that they had an elevated level of this thing called glycetylesters. It's a process contaminant so they don't put it in. It's not an additive. It's just it's the sort of thing that glycetylesters are a contaminant that can form and is basically known to form when certain ingredients like maybe vegetable oils or certain additives like mono and diglycerols are processed. Like if they're heated to high temperatures , these can emerge. So if you have a refined oil and it's heated to high temperatures during refining and then you take that refined oil and heat it up again to say like fry a product , you might get exponentially more. Do you think consumers might be doing this in their own kitchens when they cook? Yes. I mean, that's a common way that you even get more kind of processed contaminants is through at home cooking, which kind of adds part of the issue with all of these things we found is that not only are these problematic substances in foods either because they've been added in there if they're additives or they've formed due to the processing of certain ingredients , but they're not just in Cheetos and donuts. They're in a lot of, if not most of that you eat, and the cumulative effects of all of that is almost like unknowable. And that's a problem because consuming, I mean, kind of the calculation we had to do to understand the risk of these products is like , okay, we just focused in on the products . If you had a serving of crunchy flaming hot cheetos every day for the rest of your life, like, what would the impact of that be? What would it be just asking for a friend? I mean , it depends on your weight and size and other health factors. But that's the other thing. I mean, but they've always said highly processed foods are bad for you, right? We kind of know that. Yeah. But I've always been like, yeah, they're bad for you because junk food's bad. But what does that mean? And the thing that I thought was fascinating about this is like this actually shows the reason why ultra processed foods are bad is because one the processing itself, all the general junk foods, if you know, but it's the stuff that's in them. Like it brings definition of this processing was a, you know, you process milk when you homogenize it. Yeah. Processing per se isn't bad. You're putting you're putting specifics, receipts or what it means to be a process of processed food. And this is part of a broader debate that's happening right now around the term ultra processed food. When I started reporting this, I was like, oh, we can't have the term ultra processed food in there. That's kind of a buzzword. It's like chemophobia. But as I talked to more and more researchers , at first I was like, okay, if we use it, we should use this California state definition that says it's ultra processed if you have additives plus like a certain high percentage of let's say fat added sugars or one other third thing I'm forgetting the name of. And I was talking to researchers like no , that's the wrong approach whatsoever. There's this classification system called Nova that is kind of where the term ultra processed food, I think came from where it really popularized it, especially among the scientific community. And it categorizes ultra processed food as basically foods that are produced in an industrial manner that you could not, like you cannot I could not make flaming hot cheetos in my home right now . Try as you might . Try as you might. It's something that's industrially processed where you couldn't easily make it in your home and it includes a list of specific additives to it. And kind of it shows that the ingredients are a big part of this definition. And I just hadn't really considered it. So Paris, let me ask you two questions. First, the genesis of the story. Did was this just looking to process foods? Or did somebody come to you and say, hey , those hostess donuts have tidadium dioxide in them. Follow all of the giumitan dioxide . You know, it was the first goal in what led you down this path. And then the second question is you don't know what the company's motives are, what the processes are, but is it likely that these companies know that these things are in there, that they're buying vats of titanium dioxide to make their donuts white and they know that's bad because it's not allowed in Europe ? Or is it something where the laxiness of American regulations has gotten the point that yeah, this works and we don't know what it does, but nobody's told us not to. And so we put it in there. So that's two questions. Yeah. So how we kind of selected the origins for this came from us deciding kind of part ner with Yuka on a broader investigation. It's this app that you can use by this kind of great team of French scientists and researchers and general kind of like health and food fanatics . And we decided wanted to test originally actually, we're just focused on additives and we was kind of motivated by the fact that there's such a gulf between US and European food regulation as it relates to additives . And so like kind of what I was saying before, when it comes to these ingredients, it's kind of a dose makes the pois on situation Most countries, like if an food additive is allowed, like there's a specific potency it's allowed at. You can have it up to this level in this sort of food , but it's really difficult for the average person to know whether that's the case and then assess their cumulative exposure to this because it doesn't matter if the amount of red forty in say like takis or cheetah s or whatever your favorite red snack is, if it doesn't matter if that amount of red forty is like safe, if you're having seven other foods throughout the week that also have that, it might push you over kind of the limit where you want to be concerned. So kind of what we did is we looked through products that additives are listed on the ingredients list. We looked through products that had additives that we knew could be kind of problematic depending on the dose, wanted to make sure we found the most popular ones that had this and, then bought a bunch of them, sent them to a lab to test it and figure out what was going on in them. What was your second question? The second question how it's part of what you covered in terms of the LAX FDA , but do companies knowingly say gee, I need their donuts to be white. It was like the red dies. We know that there's been lots about that. But these other additives, especially the ones that they purposefully add rather than the ones that are by products . Are they likely knowledgeable what they're doing or I mean, yeah, the companies know exactly about these They have a buy them, put them in the products, list them there. If you make donuts with titanium dioxide, you can't sell them outside the US . Yeah, I mean, you can't sell them in Europe because titanium dioxide banned banned as a food additive in twenty twenty two over time. You must be aware of that. I don't think Europeans were bugonuts in case any but, I mean donuts if they just had a chance give them a chance . Yeah, it's actually it's very interesting because going into this, I, you know, the partnership we kind of already been established when I was brought into this. We'd run some of the tests. And I was initially personally a little skeptical because I feel like a lot of good. You're a journalist. Chemical, there's a lot of chemophobia around these sorts of things. And I was I didn't want to do a story that was like additives bad. Chemicals are in food. And it's like, yeah, everything's a chemical Chemicals. But frankly, the modern method of making food has made food much more widely available thanks to preserv atives. There's a lot of reasons why these are not necessarily bad things , but what you want to find out is if they cause physical harm. You know, HA is a preservative that means that people food stuff s can be shipped and produced one place and shipped somewhere else. And last before, you know, we had preservatives , food would rot , you know, before you could eat. Yeah, I mean, there are definitely additives that have incredible like benefits to them and that are not outweighed by any sort of risk. But I think the thing that if you've ever had rancid oil, you know BHA is a good thing. Rancid oil is worse than BHA. Let's put it that way. But I mean, I think there are other ways that you can prevent rancidity having been like associated with not everybody has access to fresh foods. Yeah. And I mean, I think that one of the things that ended up being so surprising or almost like radicalizing to me as I was reporting this out is I just I don't know, I guess this is like the theme for me in being a food safety journalist and digging more and more into science than I had been since I worked at Wired, is just I was the story I ended up writing is, of course, about the editives and the things we tested, but it ends up being about the FDA and how basically this current panic that we're having in the U. S. around Oh, the chemicals in our food, people on both the right and the left are very concerned about this. There's a lot of scrutiny on additive safety. This exact debate we were having in nineteen fifty eight, people were freaking out about the chemicals in our food. They had a whole congressional investigation. They found out that there's like eight hundred some chemicals that companies are putting on our food. And the U. S. government only knows that forty of them or four hundred of them are safe. And so they decided to pass this thing called the Food Additives Amendment of nineteen fifty eight that was going to fix all of it. And basically what they did is they were like, yeah , any additive you put in food, we're declaring it unsafe unless the company's proved to us, the FDA that it's safe. And that should have solved it. But there's like two, I mean, there's a lot of problems. The two core ones is that they had a honestly well intentioned loophole at first built in, where they're like, you know, we're just one agency. We've suddenly declared all food additives unsafe. It's we probably shouldn't have waste our time having companies prove to us that salt is safe to add to food or that, you know, technically if you chop up, let's say apples and put them in your yogurt , that could be considered a food addict. You don't need to prove that apples are safe. So they're like, these things can be called generally recognized as safe grass. And if you don't have to, you know, do anything, they're just good . The other issue is that this law once companies proved that an additive was safe. There's like no clause in it that says the FDA has to go and revisit that determination ever. And I don't know if you guys have heard but a lot of science has actually happened since nineteen fifty eight. And what I've learned is basically that the FDA , most of the additives we tested for this product project the FDA has not reassessed the safety of in like decades , even as other countries and other prominent regulatory bodies reviewed new science and taken steps to either ban or severely restrict use of this, the FDA has been like, well , it's an approved additive and it's just this is complicated, especially for non scientists . In general, it's very hard for people to understand and absorb accurate nutrition information. It's just hard to do the tests because it's in vitro . You know, you talk about sucrose. There's really nobody putting too much succulos in their foods. You point that out. And you mention a large scale study of one hundred thousand French adults have found an association between this non nutritive sweetener and an increased risk of type two diabetes. But an association , I should point out, correlation does not I mean causation. In fact, it makes sense that people who are doing diet sugars might in fact be worried about type two diabetes. I think it's the worst example of the three artificial sweeteners we tested but I don't know if I was printing that although there was a lot of evidence of aspiratamines really interesting. I spent a lot of time on because I mean first of all, none of the three artificial sweeteners that we tested a sulfame kick, A aspartame and succulos exceeded any of the safety thresholds we 're not, you know, we didn't recommend anybody limit the products based on what we found. A big part of this study was figuring out like what safety thresholds we want to use because the FDA does not have ones for all of these . And there's a variety of different ones to pick from the various agencies. But they have tested as an example these sweeteners that determine their safety. DA in many cases has not tested the safety, assessed the safety of these sweeteners in multiple decades. Right. And so part of the thing we looked into though is, you know, let's when one of the kind of underlying regulatory things here is they have these things called acceptable daily intake limits. Though whenever an additive is approved, they kind of figure out the immense science like what's the normal amount that someone can be exposed to every day and it's not a problem . This is determined from a variety of ways. But increasingly and especially with the reason why I included that line for the three artificial sweeteners that talks about this large scale observational study where they followed like over a hundred thousand French adults for like twelve years like recorded detailed daily dietary stuff for like weeks on end. It's kind of a first of its kind study. And they did find the results are way stronger for acul k and aspartame, like considerable association, like really notable associations between like low level consumption of aculkf andam asp artame and increased risk of developing cancer, cardiovascular disease, type two diabetes. Again , associations, not causation, but I spoke to a lot of artificial sweetener researchers because I had that exact same instinct. I was like, yeah, this seems like BS , right? And all of them were like, no , we keep finding this in lots of large scale studies and we don't know exactly how to rock it, we don't know what the causation is, but it's an incredibly strong signal with a lot of these . And we think the FDA and other people should be paying attention and looking into this stuff, but you know, it's one thing of twenty thousand things that the FDA should probably be doing. So I don't know. It's very hard. It's very complicated article because it really gives you a deep look into my mind palace Yeah, it's really deep , strong journalism and I recommend people look at it and you get you see what Paris does in her day job, which is very important. And no paywall? I know. As with all of Paris's writing, it's available even to non subscribers of consumer reports . Consumer Reports does point out there's a little paragraph, disclaimer paragraph in here that we should probably mention that what is now I've lost it. I had it here . Or what sort of disclaimer are you talking about? There's no reason to panic Oh, it was a good disclaimer. And I thought it was a thoughtful disclaimer. This is one of the reasons I really respect consumer reports. They do these they do these studies. They pay people like Paris to really work hard. It's important to note that neither Consumer Reports Noruka is a compliance or regulatory body. We offer information for consumers to make informed decisions. No legal judgments can be made for our findings . And then there's a whole page on methodology, which is what I really love . I was going to say there's a methodology that like could have been twenty more pages frankly. It goes a part of there about you turning your hair out . It should. Part of the methodology was Paris tearing her . A big part of it is this page three on it that seems so simple, like lists all of the substances, the thresholds we use, the sources for it and things like that. And this truly, this page alone probably took me like four weeks get mornings . Well because it's me and a bunch of other scientists like all of our great PhD scientists here. We worked with a great toxicologist from Yuka. And part of the thing is like earnestly and rigorously debating between ourselves with outside experts, like what are the best thresholds to use to kind of assess against? And there's like a lot of different arguments. The one that we ended up having like kind of the most debate back and forth is like red forty because both the EU and the US their acceptable daily intake for red forty is the same as it was in nineteen seventy or seventy one when the US basically the manufacturer of Red Forty submitted one unpublished rat study to the FDA and they were like, great. They were like seven milligrams per kilogram body weight per day . But in recent years, like especially in the last ten years , there's been a lot of research that has come out and shown other concerning effects of red forty. And again, this is one of those ones that I was kind of skeptical of at first, but I read this three hundred some page report from like a California regulator that looks at all the available evidence for it and they assess thised one twenty eighteen study that was like found that if you feed rats the dose of red forty that the FDA says is fine and that the EU says is fine, those rats neurological damage and they had impaired performance on learning and memory tests, those rats. And you know, I don't know, I thought that so that is kind of the level we ended up using is based on this new research . But I don't know, check it out. There's a lot of thought that went into every word in this magic. Happy Oh, but my main thing I want and I'll show this out at the end of the thing. I'm doing a Reddit AMA on Friday the twelfth at one PM and if you have any questions, get in there and ask me. She'll have the answers. I just wanted to say real quick. Anecdotally, having moved back to the Philippines after living in the States for twenty years , it's very, very apparent that the food over there is not . Why do you say that? Because like the last twenty years, I've had stomach problems living in America and then moving here gone, all gone. Right. Did you grow up in the Philippines? I did, so maybe that too . Could also . But I also go to Germany and I see all kinds of things that are still fried in palm oil. This is very, very hard . Yeah, that's why it's totally anecdotal. It's very, very hard to do that. I mean, and something that we talked about in the article and that a lot of the experts I spoke to brought up, which I think is a great point. Is yeah, we're here, we're doing this testing. We've got like all the data for you to look through. We've got a whole thing of our scientists that have gone through and been like, all right, if you want to eat these things, but still be safe, here's how to think about it . Sure, you can make more informed decisions as a consumer. But I mean one of the policy experts spoke to said, really this should be the job of the government and regulatory bodies to be and the people who employ a bunch of scientists and who are paid by our tax dollars to look at this research, reevaluate it in recent years and make decisions so that every person in America doesn't have to make become a little mini scientist and figure it out on their own. Yeah . You could always just ask Iowa to eat. I wouldn't do that. Yeah, I'm sure AI will never get that wrong. The safest thing to do is eat lots of fresh foods , you know? But I mean, I have to point out that it was like much like my protein like whenever the fuck the takeaway from protein was like, yeah, eat real food. Real food. Protein instead of What did Michael Pollins say ? Eat real food mostly . Mostly plant s. Yeah . I mean, the issue really is that all that stuff with all the processed food that's the cheapest food for most people. I mean that is more the problem for but I have to point this out again there are societal consequences of not using these techniques because not everybody has access to fresh food . And if you fry stuff, you're creating glycetyl esters in your food every single time you fry it. Well, it depends on the sort of oil you use. 's very It's it much more complicated because it's humans . And it's very hard to do real scientific testing on humans because for ethical reasons you don't want to kill some people and not kill others. It's just not done . So all we have is a lot of I think I think scientific consensus is very hard to reach in a lot of these things. Monosodium, glutamate and aspartame are very good examples of boots that are chewed by a lot of people , but the evidence isn't strong that they are dangerous. In fact, they break down into compounds that you have in your body anyway . So it's just complicated. And I understand, I know why you went through months of back and forth on this because it's very complicated, it's very hard to do, but I think this is a very judicious and reasonable article and probably everybody should read it before you go out and eat more flaming hot cheetos Or hostess donuts . Isn't titanium oxide what you use for sunscreen on your nose ? Titanium , it's basically this kind of white pigment. Yeah. I think it's sunscreen. Yeah, it's used in a lot of different things, but no longer in food. Back in the day, didn't women use, I think, lead as white makeup? Oh, that's right. I mean, people have used a lot of weird stuff. It's a good wipes. Yeah, yeah. It's used in paints . All right, we're gonna take a break. Come back with more in just a little bit. We actually have some AI news . Just a little bit. AI news, yes. Yes, was there a few things happen this week . 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It's WWDC keynote on Monday , putting, I think, AI in a very consumer friendly fashion into the hands of many, many iPhones users come in this fall. Actually, many people are already using it in the developer preview. The public preview comes out next month. Did you guys look at any of the features that they added to the occupancy? You're going to get at Paris in the fall. Oh, when is it coming out? And what features have they added? Paris has just come out of a cave. I have come out of a cave. I haven't done anything. I think what's interesting about it is it's AI for the people . So no command line, Leo . No command line, no it's agentic, but you wouldn't know it's an agent . It's Siri. You'll still you'll still say, you know, hey, you know who are they still doing the thing where you can load whoever you want in there though? Like a voice? Oh models. Well, that yeah, I mean, it's unclear they didn't talk about that, but people have found code tidbits that imply that that will be the case. For right now, what Apple's saying is isn't Gemini . Yes, they mentioned Google. We are paying Google a billion dollars a year. But what they're saying is these are our models. They call them Apple foundation models. There's a model for on device that's very small but effective in a lot of cases. There's a model that runs in Apple's Cloud and they admitted there's a model that will run on Google's Cloud with N VIDIAips ch for the most challenging tasks, but they say in all three cases they'll be able to keep it private. Now, there are some who disagree. Matthew Green, who's a cryptographer at Johns Hopkins, says it's going to be very hard to keep this stuff private because anytime you're using AI to look up movie times or get plane information, flight information, you're sending information out of this secure enclave into the real world. Just like the web. Just like the web . Just like the web . But Apple's really touting, you know, you can use our AI privately. You can't use anybody else's AI privately. Does the user choose which AI to use or the system makes that determination? No, the system makes that determination. But as I said , some rumors said and there is some evidence in code that you could perhaps choose anthropic or open AI's models instead of Gemini. It's unclear . It's unclear, but Gemini is the default model. Except again, Apple says not Gemini, it's our models, but we in conjunction with Google, there's a lot of hand wavy. Maybe they distilled it. It sounded like they did it in the post training. They used Google . I have to say that they demonstrate image playground looks very similar to Nano Banana in its capabilities and its style. You know like a Buick and an oldmobile may have different brands, but they all come from the same factory. I feel like it's kind of like that. Anyway, we're already people are starting to use it. They have rolled it out in the developer preview. There is a waitlist . Next month, it'll be public preview. I'll install it then. It's things like you could say , they show this a lot . My sister sent me an email about a video about titanium dioxide in my donuts Can you find that? Then Siri relatively quickly within a few seconds says yes, I found the email your ' itcause sees your email . I found the email your sister sent. It has a link to this video and you can say, Would you play that? And it will play that. I think for a lot of people, that's what they want. The description you'd had, couldn't you in the time you ask Claude to find the email or ask Siri to find the email, open it, and then allow me to watch it? Couldn't you just do that? Oh, but it could be she sent it two weeks ago, I can't remember maybe it was my sister, maybe I don't know who sent it to me. I know there's this word in there. All the time. The thing that I have noticed from the bits that have the light that has fallen into my cave and played out in the shadow wall is that I do think that a bit of Apple's marketing around this, I mean, I just still have bones to pick with whatever Apple Intelligence's original pitch for text message summaries was the most benal and annoying. Like I believe the summary that they used for this round of it was someone text you , hey, have you heard about this plant? It's called this. Have you heard about Kalfia Kalfe, ye.ah It's a pattern tropical houseplant. And Ciri says your friend texted you about Kalfe. She describes it as a pattern tropical houseplant . Thanks, Ciri. This is a really stupid example, isn't it? It's so dumb. It's like did they use Sonnet did they use Sonnet to write ? It's all Gemini or actually it's all Apple models trained with help from Google . I think these are bad. That is particularly a bad example, but imagine that you have a web page with a schedule of concerts. They showed this as well . And it can then compare it to your calendar and you can see which ones you can attend and you can add it, you can buy tickets. It's that kind of agegetic stuff. And of course, until we get it, we don't know how well it works. The premise though is interesting. It's similar to what Google says, which is we know everything about you. We have all this information. You know, your emails on your trust , your calendar, and we're going to keep it private. We're going to do much everything we can on device so it doesn't even go out to the internet. And if we have to go out to the Internet, we're going to keep it private there . And that's the pitch. I think more importantly, in my mind is it's going to introduce a lot more people to some of the kinds of things that they on. Well, we're going to see the same thing from Spark and what's the other one ? They're micro scout. Scout and spark. Yeah. Again, I think it sounds like two dogs and they don't want to give them human names, do they? Yeah no. A lot of people do give their AI. So it's S. It's Siriout and Sc Spark. Yes Though Scout and Spark are specifically agents, they didn't mention Agenix so much with a Siri us. I kind of no, but it kind of really it is that. We'll see. Apple isn't doing anything that you can't already do. Let's put that also out there . You can, with Google Lens , take a picture of something on the screen and ask about it. You can do a lot of the things that Apple's showing already , but Apple will put it all together in a very palatable productized package . And I think that that's going to be introducing a lot more people to kind of the intelligence that you can build in. And I think that in general is a good thing. It's going to be the way people use AI in many cases, in many cases. A lot of photo enhancement. Photo editing, I just you're not crazy about that. I mean, one of the examples they showed is you take a or I think I saw someone who was using a previous show this. You take a photo of someone like sitting at a table and then you're like, Oh, I don't like the angle of this. You could like use gen AI to have change the hand around and change the angle. And I mean, I guess, I guess that's a fine. But how many different is that from coloring? How different is that from coloring though, really? Yeah, somebody said this is something people use once twice and then forget all about that which was cool. Yeah . They are going to use the same technology, Gaussian splats to enhance the flyover so that when you fly over Paris's house , you'll actually be able to kind of zoom in to it in a three D way. It's going to be very interesting. That's going to be in maps . I don't know. I think this is a very careful use of AI . All of these capabilities will be available to developers fairly easily as they build apps, so you'll see more apps with intelligence. It's what Apple does. They take existing products and polish them up so that they're comfortable for consumers . So that was the one big announcement. The other big announcement dropped yesterday , which is that a version of Mythos is now shipping. It's called Fable . It is a new model of Fable five. Remember we were on Opus four . We are now on Fable five . And as Jeffrey was saying , they've put a lot of restrictions on it. Some of them silent. So it will step down to a lower model without telling you. Let me ask you about that. So I want to make a biological weapon. Oh, sorry, no, you're going to be moving down to Opus. Then I didn't do it at all. Yeah. I want a biological weapon. What does it mean? Just mean Opus is less I understand why it doesn't just say no, I'm not gonna do that versus I'm going to step you down. Well, no, I believe so all of them if you're like, I want to make a biological weapon . It's like no biological weapon for you, Bud , they're worried that people are going to be too good at getting around they're worried that people are going to be asking smarter questions rather than I want a biological claim the safety is there. They're claiming the scene again What we've seen so far anticipated , I want to make a recipe with titanium dioxide. It could be in relation to biology or related to a bunch of no areas . They're just like well not even letting you ask it. You're going to Opus and I'll give you an example Anthony yesterday took Steve Gibson's security show notes and asked for a summary from Fabler and Fable said, No, no, no, that's cybersecurity . yeah, it's not too bright. It's not yeah . So but this is this is the way that anthropic feels they can safely put this stuff out. They oversold the danger, danger, danger will Robinson and now they're doing well, I think the danger look, I think the danger is there. I'll give you an example. Yesterday, Microsoft, which has been using Mythos , did the largest patch Tuesday ever , two hundred bugs were fixed , many of them serious . Something like two dozen of them were fixed. So is that turned off now for the average user? If it's if that's because they had access to the full myth, but it wasn't right. The average user will not be able to do that. That's right. It wasn't tuned to do that, but it was so powerful it could. Yeah. And so I mean again and again, we're seeing companies Firefox, Microsoft, and others release huge numbers of bug fixes, Curl, FFMPG, flaws that have been around for thirty years are being fixed and it's because of Mythos. So we know these capabilities are there. What they're afraid of is that if they release exactly the same capabilities to the real world, people will use it to look for , you know, flaws that they can exploit. And I think that's not unreasonable. They're worried that people are going to use it to create bio weapons. If it's that good, I guess they could. You know, it's the same question of , well, is this hype ? Is this marketing or is this genuinely a problem? I'm leaning towards it's genuinely a problem to be honest. Any of you played around with it? Oh yeah, quite a bit. What do you think about it? Very smart . It's definitely a significant leap ahead. One of the things I 've been doing with it is having it review all my old code , the stuff that I wrote with Claude Opus , my Hermes agent I had it overnight go through everything in my Hermes agent, it fixed a whole bunch of stuff . It has been very good at finding issues that were there, but nothing else found. So it also seems smarter . It doesn't seem as synchophanic. It doesn't apologize. In fact, I think I know when it drops down, by the way, it doesn't tell you I've dropped a four eight, but I could tell because suddenly it's apologizing. Label does not apologize. Maybe maybe all of your versions of Claude know that you want to be apologized to. It could be. There is some evidence that models will start the O's very sensitive. You will start to grock what your preferences are. I know we've been over this before, but I'm mad that Elon Musk took the word grock from us. Yes. I can't say that I've grocked something without people being like, Oh , you're into that. And I'm like, No, it was a word from a sci fi novel before this that was adopted into common parlance. Here is just to keep an eye on what fables up to, I have it write a summary for me of all the things. This was the audit it did on Hermes. These are the issues it found overnight , issues I fixed . It had a deep understanding of the architecture better, frankly, in some ways than Hermes did and fixed a lot of a lot of things , found a lot of stuff that wasn't a big problem. And one of the things I was very impressed, every time it made a change, it tested to make sure that Hermes was still running , that everything was working and then it would go to the next thing and go to the next thing. And it did this all unattended from it started at about one AM and it didn't finish till about five AM. So four hours of unattended work very impressive cleaning up my agent . I then did the same thing with my Claude Code setup, found a bunch of stuff that was no op, that wasn't working, that was excess, got rid of a lunch, a lot of stuff. I'm doing this because now here's the other shoe that's gonna drop . You can use Fable right now. And anybody who's paying for Clauded Code or is using the Claude Chat app will see Fable is one of the choices , but let me run it so you can see the warning that they give you because it's a little bit annoying . It's only going to I have a subscription . It's only going to work on that subscription Fable is here, our newest model for complex long running work, included in your plan limits until june twenty second . Then bye bye. You're going to have to switch to usage credits . They also mentioned that it is twice as expensive as Opus for eight . So fifteen dollars for a million tokens in thirty dollars a day. Versus what does it cost now for DeepSeak? DeepSeak is for twelve twelve cents and thirty cents . It's why is that one for ninety five percent of the tasks one might ask this to do is DeepSeak that inferior What is it that makes using Fable so necessary that companies will spend this high amount? How will they know that they want Fable? How will they know that another model won't be just fine for much less money. Well, and that's one of the things Jeffrey was talking about earlier and one of the things a good agent will do is delegate. It'll route tasks to an appropriate model. A good agent , and I've set my Hermes up to do this. We'll say, Oh, you're doing coding, okay, well let's go use fable. Then your age is going to get kickbacks from models . Well, I hope not. But I'm able to use the local model Quin right now. I've been running the local model because for most things you do. For most things, it's just look up something . Run a Cron scale. What goes elsewhere? What kinds of things go elsewhere? Coding, images, visual recognition , harder stuff. Not rational you're not asking for reasoning things . It's functions that work well like images. Well, I think coding is a reasoning. Okay, all right, fair, fair What would it be reasonable for? What are you using this for a date? What did you use this for and yesterday ? I went out and did the show prep that we do every time for a new guest and said, would you update Jeffrey Kennell's bio and have found a bunch of new stuff? One of the things I like to do with Hermes is something called pulse, which is a skill where it goes out and I can say, what are people saying about the Consumer Reports article on food additives? And it will check Reddit, hacker news, X dot com checks twenty or thirty sources and gives me a vibe check, a summarized vibe check of well there seems to be some real discussion about this, and then they'll give me some links. There's some very useful things like that. And I think that probably the local model is good enough for most of that stuff because it's using a skill . It's mostly lookup . We do one sheets for our advertisers. So we had when a new advertiser comes in , Lisa is able to run a skill that says, tell me everything about this advertiser, where they advertise. Here's one, I'll give you an example . This is one for the company that does black hat. They were interested in advertising . So it gives us a snapshot, let me make it bigger. Snapshot of the company, who owns it, who runs it, its revenue , who its potential customer is, that's very valuable to us for figuring out which show to put it on. In fact, it even recommends which shows it's going to be good on , talking points , it tells us what awards it's won. It compares it to existing sponsors. This is all done by my agent in about ten minutes . Existing sponsors , where it's advertising now, where its social media is. So it's just, is the agent in this case just doing web searches? How is it Yes, it's essentially it's a competitive analysis. It doesn't argue that this is it's all one hundred percent. There's no Hollywood. I've not found one error. Correct . It is absolutely correct . I promise you this whole thing about hallucination is really in certain you're saying that you know more about the hallucination of models than the makers of the models because none of the model makers have said that they've been able to produce a model without hallucinations. And it depends on how you're using it . So it's not I have I have yet to find an error in any case. You're not fact checking everything. You're not looking for errors. No, I'm spot checking, but I do look for errors, absolutely. It's very reliable , very reliable. Parasites and that partly, well, I know you're skeptical, but that's partly because of how the agent is designed and how the skill is designed. It's completely possible. I just I've tried to use AI agents for any of my work and I find so many errors that it's just Yeah, I know I hear people say that and I don't know where that's coming from. I mean, I think it comes from the fact that I have to fact check every single word of it . And so I understand why you're saying that. I don't understand why it's making those mistakes I mean, it's making these because it doesn't have a sense of truth. Yeah, it doesn't have a sense of truth or truth. Things we've talked about in this show a million times is like it is processing this but it, does not know what is true versus false. It can find likely answers because of probability, but it doesn't know how to check that against truth. And that's not an insult to it. Lily was looking hurt now. No, I'm not an insult wr toite it. That's a that's a user error. You're not using it well . I think if you trust and you know, you used to talk about rag a lot. I mean, essentially all of this is rag now It's all referring to spe cific information. You have to be very clear in the skill setup that it's not to make up information that if it can't find it, it doesn't know. Occasionally, I'll make errors, absolutely. I was looking for a battery to I actually had a conversation about and this is with Quinn, which is a local model and not super bright about a UPS that I need and it's I said I need a recommendation for a UP S for the desktop the power went out. I don't know, where was this show? Was it this show? One of the shows. The power went out and I was off the air for ten minutes. I was security now last week. And so I got its recommendations , which are absolutely good. But then I said, well, you know, I have this one . Can I use this ? And it said, Oh, well , I need to know what year it is. I said, well, here's the sticker on the front. It said, No, that's not the sticker. Is it another one? Oh yeah, this is it. Oh yeah, this is it. You can show this. I'm showing all this as I'm doing it . And then it said, yep, I found it. Here's the model. It was made in twenty twenty four . Based on that, I would keep the one you're using . Now this is an error. This is a hallucination. It says it uses an RBC nineteen , which is actually no longer used by APC as battery replacement. So I went out and I searched for an RBC nineteen and I said, I found something. I said, Is this the right model? I said, No, no, no, that's the wrong model. So then I searched for it. I said, Are you sure that's the part number? I can't find it. Oh, it said good instinct to double check. APPC sometimes clearly one hundred percent. Well, it was an error, but it's attachable. Yeah, so I went to look for it . Because you caught it . You're not disagree ing, you two . I know. I'm just, I'm saying I think that these we hundred percent in the sense that there are no just it's incorrect one hundred percent. I mean, one would argue that was a hidden error that was not on the Well except until you asked it about it. Yeah, 'cause I couldn't find it. So you're agreeing you to. Yeah, well, all right . Yeah, I don't know hallucination. You're saying essentially untrustworthy. I don't think it's untrustworthy. I think you have to use that. I think everything and source of information in the world is untrustworthy. Yeah, yeah. When you're a journalist, that's how you think. When I was a Time, they ticked every damn word. And that system didn't work very well. We killed off Abby Gotta once. Yeah, well that's not a good one. Yeah. No. All right, we're going to take a break, come back. We have a little bit more before we wrap things up, including Miramar Returning the dead. Actually not dead. That was an error my AI made. Our show today brought to you by Zcaler, the world's largest cloud security platform . As we have talked about over and over again, the potential rewards of AI really too great to ignore, but so are the risks , the loss of sensitive data, attacks against enterprise managed AI, generative AI increases opportunities for threat actors too, helping them to rapidly create phishing lores to write malicious code to automate data extraction. I'll give you an example. There were one point three million instances of social security numbers leaked to AI applications. Some of that maybe is malicious. Some of it is just accidentally exfiltrating proprietary company inform ation when you use an AI . You want to stop both and Z scaler can. It's time to rethink your organization's safe use of public and private AI. Just asked Chad Pallet, acting COS at BioIVT. He says Escale helped them reduce their cyber premiums, their insurance by fifty percent and doubled their coverage and improve their controls. Take a look at this . With Z scalers, as long as you've got internet, you're good to go. A big part of the reason that we move to a consolidated solution away from SD N and VPN is to eliminate that lateral opportunity that people had and that opportunity for misdirection or open access to the network. It also was an opportunity for us to maintain and provide our remote users with a cafe style environment. Thank you, Chad. With Zcalar's Zero Trust plus AI, you could safely adopt generative AI and private AI to boost productivity across the business. Their zero trust architecture plus AI helps you reduce the risks of AI related data loss and protects against AI attacks to guarantee greater productivity and compliance. Learn more at Zcaler. com slash security. That's Zcalar. com slash security. We thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines. I think I would say on the accuracy thing, do you trust Google Maps Sometimes it makes a mistake. No, Google Maps, I mean I trust it generally, but I find a lot. Yeah, you're right. I shouldn't say it's a hundred percent accurate because Nor is not what you hit. It was one hundred percent neither is Google Maps. In this case, that error came from an earlier parts list from APC that is no longer accurate. There was a reason it said that number. It didn't just make it up out of thin air . And it then when I said I, can't find it, it said, Oh yeah, that's an old parts list. Let me check and see what the new one is. And it found the new one, which I ordered. So similar to Google Maps, Google Maps will route you to our house through an alley that no one should ever go. And I always know when somebody's using Google Maps to get here because they go they go through to be honest . You probably were using Apple Maps. I was using Google Maps. Okay. Oh, you were coming from a different direction, probably.. I was If you come from this direction, it goes through that alley. And I always see, you know, like when Uber comes or something, I can always tell when the Uber map system the Uber driver's using. So that is an error. It's not generally you trust the maps, right? It's not hallucinating streets that don't exist and things like that . I mean I trust it generally, but I know that if I am following it and I'm looking for something that I then can't find with my own eyes, the map is the problem. So I'll give it that level of accuracy. That's probably not fair to say one hundred percent. It's verifiably accurate. Let's put it that way. And certainly those onesheets that we generate are more than more than an I mean, I presume it's the same with code. At some point, what's wearing you think I got it. If it's mission critical and journalism , the journalism in Paris is doing his mission critical, then anything you get from it, you have to check out Code is a little easier because Code either works or doesn't work . So if there is a massive error in the code and the program doesn't work, yeah, it failed. That happens by the way, all the time . And then you fix it . So it's hard c haodlleucin ations are a little more subtle. There are problems with for instance fake tests where I always say the way we do my code is something called red green blue testing where you write a failing test , you write the code to see if you can get it to green . And if you can, then that part passes. But sometimes AI's will act childishly , I don't know what the right word is. And we'll write a kind of a dummy test that always passes . And that's not a good test. So you have to kind of pay attention to stuff like that. Code generally though , if it doesn't work, you know it. And if it does work, you know it . So it's a little more deterministic . It's a little harder with probabilistic things. For instance the judge who threw out a case because well this is this is a perfect example of what you're talking about. Lawyers on both sides were using AI . It is . judge The cancelled the trial and kicked everyone off. Hasn't anyone learned in the legal profession at this point? There have been enough Schmuck lawyers who have screwed this up. The problem is when it works, it works so well. Well, that's exactly . Well, oh, this case is fascinating. One of the things I did in my cave life , you know, when you're in the cave life you have like maybe an hour every night when you're trying to go to sleep, you're like, I can't look at bad screen anymore. I've got to look at slightly smaller bad screen. And one of my slightly smaller bad screen things was reading the whole , I guess it was the judgment summary from this specific case and it was brutal . Oh, where is Hong? I've got it right here. I want to make sure that I get withers versus the city of Aberdeen. Oh yeah, this is it. Basically it seems like like , oh, is this a different one ? This is oh, this is a fully different I was thinking of a different lawyer AI judge there's a lot of that happened this week as well, which was the judge ripped into this lawyer because he won, used AI in for his filings, had a bunch of fake citations. But then when the judge asked him about it, he was like, I've used TRAP imes but not for this. He was like, Well, we're ordering you to provide a chat transcript to the court . He then went in, the tr leted his chat account , then when it said he stole a times on the chat GBT account. So it would be around for another month, which is around the end of the window . He went in and asked for a partial refund so all the data would be wiped and then told the judge, sorry, I don't have a chat P account anymore and the judge like lost their like you, I think he was suspended for months. They have to like do like a public notice where he has to provide this brutal write up I've ever seen about how dumb of a person you are to every judge and attorney you've ever worked with. I mean, this seems like it is a scourge on the legal industry right now. This is what the court wrote about there being a media case. Upon reviewing the brief submitt ed in support of the parties' respective positions, both parties with regard to the two motions, the court was unable to locate certain legal authorities cited within them. Specifically, the court determined the following filings contained hallucinatory cit ations , and there are quite a few of them, which the court also lists . Basically, the court decided you all are out of here and I'm not going to go I'm not gonna continue this at all I mean the poor plaintiffs each of the attorneys Each of the attorneys expressed embarrassment and apologized to the court Yeah Yeah . This is equally a scathing judgment . The clients, I mean the first famous case of this, which I covered in federal court . The judge made him apologize to his client and that also made him write to the judges in the cases that he had cited and apologize and find a money. At the end of the judgment, this court is yet again burdened with addressing AI hallucinations in court filings . It has previously acknowledged that AI is a powerful tool that when used prudently in Italics provides immense benefits . This case presents the court with an unusual scenario. Attorneys for both litigants engaged in similar sanctionable conduct . Is there a sanction order in it? Is that throwing out the case? I think there were sanctions actually. They'd probably have to come in for a show cause why you shouldn't be sanctioned . Yeah. I get the sense that this is happening because the firms are taking on a lot more cases because they can blow through them with chat GBT . Or they're not bringing in interns to do the work they're, you know, bringing in . Additionally, the court is compelled to point out that this sanctionable conduct inevitably implicates Williams and Wilson's ability to continue practicing before it. So you can see where they're headed here. A unifying framework for determining the appropriate sanctions in cases involving unverified AI usage has not been adopted yet within the Fifth Circuit . In this in the past, this court has considered the violating attorneys candor, accountability and remedial rep measures . So how guilty you feel ? I don't know if I can go on, and this is a very long thing which I haven't read. Wilson explained she was shocked when the court issued the show cause order pointing out the hallucinated cases appeared appearing in her filing , in essence , the attorney took the position she was unaware that AI could produce hallucinated cases and explained she didn't even know what a hallucin ated case was. By then the court finds that explanation to be insufficient and incredible. When I covered my porschemak, it was early enough in Chattupee's life . I'm not a cat. There was a search . Well, that excuse goes away. Yeah. Apparently he was pretty mad at this attorney. She's done this before. I've found the one that I'm thinking of, which was I believe an Alabama court case there was two weeks ago this was filed because this is all happening right. The court is not ordering the harshest of attorney harp sanctions because he made a mistake. The court is ordering them because when confronted with that mistake, he chose dishonesty over candor and destruction over disclosure. Lawyers make errors, competent and ethical lawyers own them. When lawyers are caught submitting AI generated misrepresentations to the court, they have two options . They can either admit to their mistakes and show contrition or they can attempt to cover up their mistakes and demonstrate a weakness of character unsuited to the legal profession. That's saying something. If you're too low to be a lawyer path, they'll likely preserve their standing before the court. If they choose the latter, they may well lose their career. The judge here wrote, It's also apparent she attempted to minimize the violation by emphasizing the legal propos itions in her filing were correct statements of law despite conceding that she had cited fake cases. How hard would it be to look at your sites and just verify them in the law books? Cut and paste a little search . They all probably got the same MMO as you that their AI is one hundred percent accurate. Well, I'll go back to my case again. It was a guy who does state courts, but the court the case went up to the federal courts and he didn't have the license for the federal search engine . Oh, so he could but he thought he thought Chechenki was a super search engine and gee, it's free. Well, that's that's it in this scenario. At the time, at the time, it was actually somewhat excuse me, until he then went back and asked it, are you sure these are real ? Which gave up the ghost on that? Yeah, he fined Wilson twenty five hundred dollars barred her for two years from appearing before the court and ordered her to attend a CLA on artificial intelligence with an ethics component . The other attorney also her Her admission in the case is revoked, barred from appearing for two years from today's date and a three thousand five hundred dollars fine . So yeah, they were all fined, you know, mild fines, but mostly disqualif ied from appearing in that court again . So yeah, anyway, this is happening again and again. In fact, there's a guy Rob Frend who has an entire page dedicated to these errors and so forth . So that's where this story came from four hundred and four reporting on it. This is probably why some of the large law firms are now investing considerable amount of time and money into trying to train their own LMs . No . And yet Yet this is why it's so complicated. There's also amazing things these things are doing, including mythos finding bugs that have been around forever . From TNW, Miramarati resurfaces after eighteen months with a warning about AI governance and a product no one expected. She was the CTO at OpenAI who was for about three minutes, the CEO when they fired Sam Altman She then started thinking machines. This could be a product that you would appeal to you no Sitting down with Bloomberg's Emily Chang in San Francisco, she gave her first major appearance in eighteen months . Thinking Machines Lab, her startup, which had spent the year raising two billion dollars , securing a gigawatt of NVIDIA Vera Rubin compute, shipping one product and losing a troubling number of researchers at hired to build the next one . This is good writing by Christian Dina at the next Web. The product is Prumroll, something they're calling interaction models, a fundamentally different kind of AI interface. Rather than the prompt and response format , the company's models are designed to produce continuous streams of audio texted video in two hundred mill isecond intervals. So this is a model designed specifically to interpret that kind of TikTok meme where you've got somebody playing temple run in the background and family guy on one side and then a live stream on another. This is a model for that you know a model for video slop she says when I wake up in the morning I'm not thinking about how to kill the competitor Okay maybe others are . Anyway, this is an interesting idea. Actually, we're trying really hard Darren Oki, our AI genius in the club , or Australian, who's a regular on our AI user group says he has a model that we can now put in the show that will listen and interact with waiting for that. Yeah. Yeah . I'm very interested . I'm very interested . So at some point you may hear, I don't know if it'll be related to the thinking machines model, but you may hear a new a new what will you name it ? Well, I think we should be waited to advocate for your slash Darren's view? Of course it will. Of course it will. It's an AI. It's not a democracy. It's an AI I mean there are other AIs that don't aren't way to do that, but you know , many AI's will immediately say, Oh no, don't don't trust me. Oh , it's not his model. It's got real time is the name of it. Thank you, Darren . Let's see , what else? Sag After Actors Union has striked a four struck strikes a four year deal with studios to protect the performers against AI , better pay and benefits And it avoided a walkout, which is good, no strike this year . More than ninety percent of the votes approved the agreement . This is our discussion last week with Robert Trisk , stuff's going to start happening in Hollywood. Yeah . Yeah, I imagine it allows the use of AI as long as the actor. The contract says AI performers must bring, quote, significant additional value over a live act or or a digital capture of them if producers are to use them . Union leaders say this will keep the use of AI actors minimal. I wouldn't count on that. Anyway , they've got some concessions, and I think that's a good thing. I think that's a good thing. Actors are a good people. They deserve it. So it also allows some innovation to happen. Yeah, you need to find a balance . And I think last story, this I think you will like . If LLMs have human like attributes, then so does Age of Empires two . An archive paper that says if I can, if you think an LLM is conscious, I can make age of empires too conscious. A great game, by the way . They led to evaluations of various areas, theory of mind, learning and understanding and psychology . In this paper, we leverage those observations to show that in LMLM research assuming that general anthropomorphic properties exist or not , as part of their measurement, is fundamentally flawed . Any sufficiently powerful substrate could implement an entity equivalent to an LLM, including the video game age of emp ires too . So that should make you very happy . Well, we've had AI in video games forever. Like that's we've just been calling the computer the AI forever , so he trained a perceptron in AI and AOE two Yeah, it's interesting. Here is a picture of A Nandgate in Age of Empire's II, Senator . I'm not sure this proves it in any respect, but it's kind of a fun idea . All right, what else do I'm looking down at your you like the new Gemini three translation. This is pretty exciting. Yeah, it is. Live Translate almost in real time, and they showed let me show you the video . They showed it happening in simultaneous translation , which is pretty good. It's translating English logarika almost real time. This is Senard Pachai's talk at Google IO. In this demo, we're going to show you a live dubbing experience. Here we're using the API to stream translated audio directly from a tab. Watch as we listen to the Google IO keynote in Hindi. What's really incredible is how people are using our AI Job Ya heck logamaika . I don't speak Hindi, but I imagine that's pretty good. They showed it in other languages. They even showed it in four languages simultaneously , which is, you know, UN style simultaneous translation. It's bad chaotic. I've read news all over the world, put it. Actually, the other speakers speaks German , which I know that you speak a little bit of German. Here's the German to English Congratulations sounds. I need no choppiness, no artificial pause. It flows like a completely natural language switch now to a long Japanese session . It's pretty impressive. It is. I think the babel fish is getting close. It's a little grain of salt though because this is Google and they are, you know, I know. They do these demos. Google loves to make an impressive already video and it's kind of cobbled together. I remember seeing Eric Schmidt in Davos many years ago saying When we can do this, we'll have world peace . You forgot a few factors . Well, the Pope referred to the Tower of Babel, I think. Yeah, that's the Tower of Bab.ylon That's the whole thing, right? Well, it's the opposite, right? In the tower of Babel, nobody could understand anybody because they all spoke different languages, but it would have solved the Tower . The Tower if only the tower had Google, the Tower of Babel was the representation of everyone having the same knowledge, right? Isn't that what it was? No, I thought it was because the hope was that we'd all have one yes, but on the language so we had diversity. And instead we got Esperano, which by the way , Google Translate does Esperana. Well , does it do Klingon? I didn't see Klingon in there. I did download the latest version. I'm sure it does. There is a nerd over there that made that happen. Oh yeah, it has to be. Yeah, yeah. What else I mean, I can pick. I'm sure you talked about the anthropic confidential filing last week, but we had, you know, open eye did that this week. Everything's geared enough. Yep. IPOs are coming. Perplexity says twenty twenty eight . All right, sure. Plexity is going to be challenged because they don't have models of their own. Money by then perplexity. Yeah. Meta, Meta is rumored to also be going into the private market to the public mark et like Google. Doesn't mean that a huge push. Yes, Meta raise more money. Yeah. But Meta is already a public company. So they're raising raising another eighty billion diluting their current stock, right? Ah taking, a page for the game stock. Oh, and speaking of Germany , German courts. Yeah, this is a bad one. Yep. Have declared Google's AI overviews are Google's own words and thus Google is liable for errors . I think that's fun No, 'cause what get the logic of it. Who's got to be liable for all my own words, even the words I tweet. I think Google could, you know , listen, I understand there's broader implications to this that my flip and answer is not considering . But while I'm doing flip and answer, I think it is fun that somebody else has to actually care about their precision of their words. So what happened was pretty bad. So Google's AI overviews falsely tied two German Munich based publishers to scams, subscription traps and shady business practices . According to the court, the AI mixed up information about other genuinely sketchy companies with the plaintiffs who sued and drew connections that did not appear in any of the link's sources. Publishers sent Google a cease and desist, but didn't . Google's AI overviews were nothing like traditional search results, the court argues. The AI rewrites and judges results' in its own words, according to its own structure, the ruling says in the case at hand, for example, it opened with a confident claim like yes , this company's known for dubious business practices. I mean, I think that's not good . It makes sense. If you have your core product offering for Google right now is its AI search results. It's selling ads. It's reorienting its whole kind of product structure around the search product around this . And if you do not offer any tools to when you get it wrong to correct that information, when someone notifies you that you've gotten it wrong and you continue to show this incorrect and libeless information to a large incredibly large audience , I don't but there's randomness built in. I'm not disagree with you, but this random is built in so the next answer may be the opposite. Well, you still showed it to a lot of people, enough so that this lawsuit was able to get it into discoveries phrase . You know, in plain old search, I get the logic of the decision, right? In plain old search you were delivering the web . Then in chat GPT, well, that's just a tool and you asked it a question and it has caveats . This decision is saying, but it's Google speaking is Google answering this question. But it's a fine line I think there. And the result of this , I mean, Google's just got to make the copy outside hell a lot bigger and eighteen point . It's often makes mistakes. It's not true . You know, beware, beware . But the end result could be that they pull AI out of Germ any or something. I don't know . By the way, Benito, you were right . I'm just getting, I got my result from my AI . From Genesis eleven, one through nine, after the flood, humanity is described as speaking one language People decided to build a great city with a tower with its top in the heavens to make a name for themselves. God sees the project and says because this is a little weird because they are un ited by one language, nothing they propose to do will now be impossible for them so he confuses their language and makes them unable to understand one another and scatters them across the Earth. Yep, so we tried that's what kind of we tried to AI S to recognize Oh yeah. Well that's what my agent because it knows me says a nice cyberpunk Taoist read babel is what happens when coordination turns into domination when a shared protocol becomes a monument to control . See, it knows me and it always sticks in little stuff like that. So you want a few other quick stories? Yes . So turn it in , which is supposed to detect plagiarism and now AI . I mean, turn it in, which has been flagrantly wrong about a bunch of things. I could read more . But researchers did an interesting experiment where they gave it a hundred percent human text, one hundred percent AI text. But then they also varied the text, you know, twenty percent, forty percent, sixty percent, whatever AI text added in. It was pretty good on either end of the extremes. But the paradox was that the smaller the AI contribution, the larger it thought it was, the larger the AI contribution, the smaller it thought it was . All of these things are coming out trying to argue the pope when we had Padre on , some accuse the pope of putting AI into the encyclical . We're just going to get used to the fact that you don't know. You don't know. I'm curious as to how that same test would work on pan panagrams. I would too. Yeah . Do you think that one's good? Like that's the one I have been entirely dismissive of all of them and I think rightfully so, this is the first panagram is the first one that has given me some pause in the sense that I mean my assessment of it has been entirely fully myopic in the sense that I'll put in my own writing from years ago. It flags that as a hundred percent human every time no matter what combination I do, I try and mix in some of my writing with AI generated text that kind of sounds like my writing and it will catch that. I don't know how it does it. I don't know it's panram, not panagram, sorry . I don't know if this is more broadly applicable. I'm sure there are a bunch of things that might get wrong. I don't know how it handles new models. I'd love to get someone from Pangram on the show to kind of talk through this a bit because I think part of my understanding is part of what sets them apart is they are like using their own model to basically be like, what with every single word, what does our own model think the next likely word is going to be? And then it kind of compares it uses that to try and determine that's a very rudimentary and probably somewhat partially wrong explanation of it. But it's a different sort of assessment than we traditionally get from these sort of tools. Let's see, I'm asking it to okay, one hundred percent of my text was human written, which is true. That was from my journal. Let me find some AI see if it can detect some AI talk . I probably can't. I could detect some of this AI talk actually . I mean , yeah , it 's it's very interesting. I mean, I played around it quite a bit because I saw some people whenever that I think Commonwealth Prize short story was going on and people were citing Pangram as being like, Oh evidence of AI. I was like, oh this is such a BS. People have been using this service forever. It's obviously wrong . I'm going to find a way to prove how dumb it is so that I can dunk on them on Twitter and I couldn't . So I mean that was the only I didn't try longer than like thirty minutes, but I thought that was notable. It's the first one of those I hadn't been able to figure it out. Yeah . I don't think teachers should use it, though, right? I mean no, I mean, here's the thing such a high stakes should be used to make definitive judgments in any truly meaningful way, but I think it is a useful signal . Yeah . But I don't know. That's the problem. I just don't know the date. I need research like the one I cited to go in and test it . I'm putting in I mean I believe encyclical. One of the founders of Pangram just had a debate with a research er about this very thing and it concluded with, I think this is on either Twitter or BlueSkide then being like we will give you this many thousand dollars worth of free pan game credits. You can do whatever you want with it , all we ask to test it. All we ask is that you just publish everything you put in you do out and you do it all by yourself have nothing to do with us. I just put in the Tower of Babel Answer from my agent and citizens got them percent human written. All right . Oh . Good work, Leo . That's great . See? Although false a negative is probably better than a false positive, right? You don't want a student who actually wrote a paper to be flagged as AI. Most of this is quotes. Most of this is quotes though, right? So the quotes are human written . Confidence low though . Yeah, it does say confidence low, which is supporting evidence . I 'm not going to use supporting evidence isn't it doesn't highlight the evidence that it's not specific to the Yeah, it just it calls out things that people commonly call it like a three you know, rule, of three or if not this then this, but it says it doesn't use that at all in its assessments . So it won't judge you on your M dash usage . I mean, this is something I thought about a lot when I was writing this story because like between that and the second story I wrote like published like five thousand words and all the other stuff out there like a couple more thousand and I was like I feel like I'm going insane like I go and look at my old work from like pre twenty twenty, even I'm like, I used I have always used MSH as well as a journalist. You know, and I've always used a lot of the phrasing or things like that that now is considered common with AI because it did get that from scraping the work of lots of journalists that have similar habits , but now I'm always like I started one of my articles off I wanted to like list the top like three products that had a lot of additives or contaminants in it. But I was like, oh, everybody always says that when there's three things listed, that's AI so I'm going to start with four instead. And I did because I don't want people to think I used A I, not that I did. I mean, the three things thing is like a writing technique that's been passed down through the ages. I know. AI just doing it. Sounds good and normal. It's like the rule of threes. You do blank, blank and blank. Absolutely. It's the right rhythm. You know, and then the other one is tell 'em what you're gonna tell them, tell 'em, then tell them what you hold them. Yes, my sister taught homoletics, sermon writing at a seminary. That's what you did, you know these are things that we all do . So I'm going to try one more thing. I did give it some more AI pros and it was able to detect it. It said one hundred percent AI generated, but now if I have any more tokens , I'm gonna give it, I asked my AI to humanize it because it has a skill to take AI is out . Nope, didn't fool it. Honda confidence high percent though it wasn't able to humanize it as well as it thinks it can. What's weird is that the confidence low was still one hundred percent. Like that should've been a smaller number, right? Well, no, it's one hundred percent of this text, it believes not one hundred percent confidence it because it will break it up into chunks . Like sometimes it'll be like we think that this paragraph could be AI generated or there it'll sometimes highlight it and be like, we think this could be combo AI human , you know, like a light rewrite situation . So at least it didn't flag as AI something a human wrote, which I think would be a much worse outcome. Anything else before we break for our interesting one to me is the Amazon is letting you an image generator so you can if Paris has a dress in mind that she really wants , but can't find it. She can have it generate an AI image of that dress and then have Amazon look for anything that in reality is like it would be better if it made it. Well, that's where you go. So speaking of that, Amazon has also introduced a structure so you can have the AI design an image and then make custom the merch from that. Oh, that's nice. That's nice . All right . So but it's mostly like making a t shirt or a sweat right now, but you know soon it'll make you a Jensen Wong fake leather jacket . Sign a heavy metal logo for my face. Jensen's not gonna let that happen. Come on. He's got he 's bought up all the snakes in the world so that you can't make one. He finally musk he can change the AI, right? Right. Finally, Elon Musk says he's building a ship that's two to three times better than NVIDIA. At ten percent of the cost, he's just such a is he gonna make it on Mars ? Yes , Jesus Christ . I no longer even listen when he says something it's like, okay, fine, go ahead, you do that. You know, I've been thinking a little bit about this. There was a point in time where I think he was a genius. He did do some pretty amazing he did a very smart thing. But the argument was he came in, I mean, Tesla, he didn't do Tesla. He came in to Tesla. No, but he made Tesla happen. Those guys had never even built a car . He bought the idea and then it ended up making a car that is arguably to this day the best electric vehicle ever made. It certainly is the longest lasting . He did some good things. Now he didn't do it all by himself. He hired the engineers and he put the money into it . Same thing with SpaceX. I mean, that's a tremendous success in many ways. But we don't have any idea went crazy. See brainworms when you're surrounded by enough people '.s That what I think tell you that you're the smartest best person . Plus internet brain poisoning from general internet use plus having an army of online sycophants that daily ketamine use help. And third pillar, a lot of alleged drug use that if you were to be believed, probably makes all those things worse. Yeah . I was also thinking that if we are going to go to Mars, let's just send the AI's. What do we need to go for? They're not going to do up there. Why can't build a city while this is what this is what the test grail people say is that when they talk about the ten to the fortieth, whatever the number is, human beings in the future, they don't mean they're all human beings with bodies . They think that they're going to create virtual humans that will then be able to populate the universe they did . Yeah, we pulled we did a survey. We asked ten thousand people and you're like, oh, how did you do the survey? And they're like, well, we used an AI tool to ask to simulate survey. I'm like , you're not talking about people, you're talking about tools ideal to people. We surveyed the AIs. Well, that's being used now instead of because it's cheaper than factory surveys. You're right. It makes a lot more sense though to send AI's to Mars. They don't have the low gravity, the long trip. But all of what these people think is that these are going to be alive because they can create this is your this is your Jeffrey Hinton thing. They're conscious and we can send this conscious being on our behalf . And so we have populated the universe with human extensions. We may not agree on what the process is in an AI's mind, I don't think we disagree on the fact that it's not human . I'm not asserting that AI's are human in any respect. Well, sentient and conscious Well, they might be sentient and conscious. We don't know, but they're not human.. They never will be The pope was going to strike you down Well , let's forget that the pope is in a fallible . You want one hundred percent. A business is a pub where faith is key, right? Believing in the face of Salova. Grail boys . Yeah. Same as me. You're watching intelligent machines with three very intelligent people and no machines involve Jeff Jarvis, Paris M artinau . I just want to invite those of you who are not yet members of the club to support our shows. These shows require financial support, but they even more than financial support. They require your emotional and intention to continue because yes, we do have advertisers. They cover seventy percent, let's say, I'm not sure the exact numbers are around seventy percent of our operations costs . We could continue on without the club, but we'd have to cut back a little bit . 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We gather here tonight to bring women back to their rightful place . The Testaments, a new Hulu original series from the executive producers of the Handmaid's Tale. It's easier to accept a story than believe that the people around you are monsters , the battle isn't over. There come a time when you have to take action, when you have to choose your own destiny. Watch the new Hulu original series The Test imreoniesam sting on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for Bundle Subscribers. Terms apply. Guys , shout out to everybody who left reviews for the show in the last month. Did we get a bunch? Yeah. A bunch in the last month. Yeah. Like see some reviewss . Let' see. Always makes you think says LRA U hockey . What do you get when you put together three Star Minds differing opinions of AI? You get intelligent conversations about AI Extremely intelligent, says Peggy Lisb I've loved the show for ages. Previously Twig, keep up the banter, definitely part of the charm. Let me in, Paris, Leo or Jeff, says Matt, definitely not an AI. The show is fantastic with sand in their shoes or not. I'm not sure, but I think you do not need to be conscious to enjoy the show. I want to hear more of ten than less of the two old men . We agree with that. Did she did they say more of your opinions and less of the two old men's? Yeah, they did. You glossed over that. I emphasize that. That one's Paris. Yeah. You know, there's one negative opinion that got really mad that I guess Jeff talked about CBS last week , but you know , other than that, lovely time. Leave your five star reviews at your favorite podcast client. We appreciate that. That helps us spread the word. Maris Martino, pick of the week. I got a lot down here, honestly. Let me even find it. Yeah, as I said before , come check out my Reddit AMA Friday june twelfth at one PM Eastern . I've included a link just to consumer reports read it because it hasn't the AMA hasn't been posted. But it'll be at slash R slash IAMA . Yeah , you know, I think it's an a couple of hours or something before we',ll open it up , can ask questions, get in there . Other picks are, I don't know. I told you guys that two or so months ago I started getting into basketball and since then there's been a lot of move. Picked a good time to get into basketball, young lady. I told you. I think the Knicks owe you something there. I mean, I'm going to a bar to watch this game four right after the show. So very exciting. No, it's lovely. I have suddenly a desperate hatred of the tall Frenchman. No, you should know you should hate is the referees. Oh, I do hate them. They are the ones to hate Referees who agreed basically made a call yesterday that they're like, yeah, Wemby can bring a loaded gun to the game and we won't stop him is what they've decided . But you know, it's fun. I'd really I'm probably not speaking to anyone who hasn't watched basketball before, but if you're someone like me, never really watched basketball as an adults check it out. It's a delightful time. Just don't wear your hands. No wearing yesterday Paris, just no wearing it's good please. I'm not. Wemby going to pushing people out of line at Salt Hanks? Oh, I did . I saw that come across and I was like, yeah, wow, the nexus of my interest s. That's also a say Wemby has a big day planned in New York City shoving people out of line for crowns, yanking people out of line at the Raphael show at the Met, pushing people out of line at Salt Hanks , wrenching people out of line at KIF, etc , et cetera. Wow, Hank has made it into the good Eric Lock annoply New York landmarks. That's what he writes for the New York er. That's like a big deal. Yeah . Wow . Should I talk about gaming or do are we going to include that part in the show from earlier or cut it out because it was when we were figuring out things? She is very excited getting herself one of these little babies basically I watched Nintendo Direct, but I was scrolling through it yesterday but I'm like, oh well, I haven't bought a switch since like twenty eighteen. I'm mostly a steam deck girlly , and I haven't needed to because I have a early Nintendo Switch, but allegedly they are releasing a new fire emblem game on september seventeenth and it appears to be a spiritual if not direct successor to one of my favorite games of all time, Fire Emblem three houses and I'm so thrilled. Must be generational. I feel very guilty playing video games , like I'm wasting my time. I enjoy here's the secret . Yeah. You're always wasting your time . Every second you spend doing anything is a second closer you are to death . Unless you keep unless you're jumpshotting a big two points to help the New York Knicks win game for the NBA finals . It's true . That is a nice nice video of you, an image of you there. For the dunk, here she is showing her ball handling skills . I don't know how it shows her to her. She's a Celtics fan, though. None of us are in the finals . The AI knew that we were completely unrelated to everything going on. Yes, we don't know what's happened. The other game I'm really excited about those I've never really gotten into Final Fantasy because I mean, I've like played through a bit of some of the old classic ones, but never fully because I mean the graphics and everything it's just it's such a leap going for modern gam ing to, you know, like Final Fantasy five , but they're releasing a new Final Fantasy game in HD two D with Turn Base Combat. I'm going to be right there . Turn based combat your thing as a coward who doesn't like to have to play in real time because I like to be able to sit there and think and then make a move once I've considered us . I hate turn based combat. I mean, that's the thing is I'm not here to I'm not playing a game to have reflexes. My constant thought in basketball is I'm like, how are they moving so fast and doing so many things? This is great because it looks like it's Octopath Traveler two style, which is phenomenal. Nice It is kind of a retro look for Final Fantasy. Yeah, it's HG Tuti, which has gotten really popular with octopath travelers. Is this a remake of an old Final Fantasy or which one is this? I believe it's a reimagining of a story concept popularized in a mobile game, but everything else about it is completely different and that instead it has incorporates elements from basically every final fantasy game in where your characters can kind of like their job classes are these things called visions where you get to basically pluck a character from all the iconic final fantasy games of your and they emerge to do a special move for you. Okay , that sounds cool. Yes. I do like one turn based game, which is called chess, but that's a little different . All of the turn based games are basically chess but just a little differently. Yeah, maybe I should it's all just a more complicated chess . That's the thing is they've made versions of chess that are more complicated than you could ever imagine. Maybe that's why they've made versions of chess that are so complicated and then you have the worst, most maniacal AI ever that's playing against you and you can turn on modes that are labeled things like maddening and it's awesome . It's awesome I have a little pick something Google shipped out let's see when did they ship this last week I think called Dream Beans . This is a very weird AI experiment from Google. It's an app, this is running on my iPhone , where it looks into all the stuff it knows about you, generates an image, and then suggests something you might want to do . Play the podcast where the river took us. Apparently thinks I would enjoy that . Tracking mountain lines at Jack London State Historic Park. By the way, that's a pretty good image of Lisa a and Michel and me tracking mountain lions pre order the Space Opera Exodus by Peter F. Hamilton. I do want to do that. He's right about that one. So it does these images . I don't know why it thinks I'm go going to to the oh I'm going to drink the twenty twenty five Northern Roman village of Gros mitage. That is a very hard wine to find . I love Cotarun. Yes, we do too. Tell me it's a dream for an upbeat morning if you're looking for fresh studio drops spinning this vibrant, vibrant solo debut from British alt pop songwriter. So these are recommendations, but then it draws these silly images to go along with it. There are Steve Gibson and I running a mobile privacy audit on my pixel. But quite enjoying yourselves. Yeah, it looks like we're having fun. One time. Isn't that so strange? Like it's a little creepy that it knows so much. Like how did it know that I wear a Scotty Evest whenever I travel ? Maybe I mentioned that once. Here, Lisa and I are, oh, oh, oh please see all of your pictures. It's seen all of your photos. It knows everything. It's trying out . Lisa just told me I should order a second mana kitchen pepper cannon for steak night. How do it must be listening to me? Experience vintage . You've got your house wired up with light given AI access to. So when you install Dream Beans , you give it your Google account and then guess what ? Then it goes and looks at all of the stuff it knows about you, goes through your Gmails and stuff and generates suggestions based on your location , based on who you are, what you're doing . It does these images. I want more stories about, oh, so you can tune it a little bit. Show me less of never show me. So that's just for tuning . This is Gemini obviously . I think it's pretty good. I mean it's weird. But yeah, this is an example of how you can find out what Google knows about. Are you allowed to use this? Nope . Oh, of course it's not on workspace. By the way, the Mana Kitchen pepper cannon is the best, most expensive pepper mill in the world. But what is how much pepper are you milling A lot of it. So much so that we need a second one because we have one next to the stove. Isn't he? says we need one for the table so we have to go to the stove to get more pepper . Are you just used casually on? I gotta show you this pepper cannon. This is the best thing. I understand what a pepper cannon is , but what are you putting pepper on? Everything Quincy pepper's best the . Don't you like pepper? I think pepper's fine. I can't gave the last time I milled pepper. It's hard to give Salt Hank a gift that he hasn't already been sent for free. Is that not insulting for you send him pepper? You'd think he loved it. He said, Dad, and he started to use it in his videos. He loves it. I would say it's probably because he likes a big thing that makes a crunchy crunchy sound. But it's good. It's got steel grinders. The large version is two hundred and forty nine dollars. Yeah, I think that's the one I have. I don't. The regular one is one hundred ninety nine. Yeah, that's great. They're expensive. I'll get the regular one for the table. Hire somebody with a hammer to crack the pepper for you. It'd be cheaper But it lasts higher How many pepper grinders have you gone through and you don't know whether it's gonna last forever yet, Leo? Well, it's lasting. He said true . I love the pepper cannon. Okay, and say, Google knows it . Google knows it. I'll never know. Okay , are there , how much plastic is in this device? None . It's aerospace grade aluminum construction , Paris . And most importantly , ten times the output of ordinary pepper mills. Do you know what they use for God? High carbon stainless stainless steel birds. Birds, you could use it to grind your coffee. That's more acceptable. The one thing I will argue is that my cute Duce and Duceen pepper mill I haven't thought of until now probably got plastic in there that I'm grinding into mine. There you go. Yep . Meanwhile, I'm getting metal in Russia. And Per just suggested the best show title, which is just Google knows I love the pepper can That really makes me laugh . Jeff Jarvis, you're your pick of the week. All right, I'm going to take you to some work of I discovered this through a McGill University professor, Sarah M. Grimes. Panic, first evidence leader. Oh, she's great. This is quite wonderful. This is right, you covered this was your old beat . So she takes to task Jonathan Hight as I try too often. I quoted most of these researchers in my book, The Web We Weave, which no one bought , and because optimism doesn't sell. And it takes apart Hayt's best selling book arguments with receipts and real research from real researchers who know what the F they're talking about. Well, I read Candace Rodgers piece that she refers to here in nature. In fact, I read it into the record on this show, I believe. Way back when the hate book hype book came out , Rogers, this is her, you know, field of study, and she completely debunked it. Yeah. Correlation is not causation. Effect sizes are tiny. We've seen this before. The global data don't fit data being plural like researchers do. Well, that's one of the most interesting pieces. This is an American phenomenon, but phones are everywhere . Yeah, it just doesn't work . And finally, the critique it punishes kids not companies. So if you've got issues, go with the companies . It goes into height himself . His actual research fields, moral psychology, intuition and emotions, political psychology and polarization, business ethics, not adolescent development, not mediaFX or screen time, not child psychology or pediatrics . I killed her. Well, she probably won't like this new paper that says the reason the birth rate is dropping is the iPhone. Oh God, that one's killing me. It's killing me. The birth rate started dropping dramatically in two thousand seven. We screw our phones . And it's all because you're looking at your phones instead of having relations. How about it's the fact the world's falling apart was to drink a child into it. The New York Times, two new studies point to phones . At least they don't mention the iPhone, although two thousand seven is when the iPhone was released. It's not a coincidence. I would argue I would argue that smartphones actually increase the birth rate by a small amount. I would argue that You suddenly have a bunch of applications that are specifically designed towards activities related to increasing the birth rate. This is a famous piece that I remember reading about two thousand seven. If you look at the things that changed in two thousand seven , it's really when the world went to hell . So I think we can blame the iPhone for recession . The housing doesn't want to be here so bad. The global financial crisis and Gizmo. When was Gizmo born ? Six years ago. See, when the iPhone came out, I rest my case . No way . That makes no sense . Gizmoan has been radicalized by technology. Over the course of when I was in my cave of time for the story, she got really mad that I was spending so much time at the computer and not playing with her. Oh my gosh. She's learned how to one flop in my desk and mess up my mic, as we all know, but she's also learned how to hit the buttons on my computer that turn it off and turn off my notifications. Like she's figured out that if she taps the lock screen button, I will move her and therefore touch her. Wow, she is smart. No, she needs to get dumber . She's too smart is what you? Yeah, it's untenable. Feed her some donuts . I should . A little titanium dioxide goes a long way in a kitty cat's diet. With it, we've learned something today. Ladies and gentlemen, we're so glad you tuned in, intelligent machines. We do this show every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly two PM Pacific five PM Eastern . That's twenty one hundred UTC . You can watch us do the show live in the Club Twit Discord, of course, if you're a member of the club, if you're not join , but even if you're not a member, you can watch on YouTube , Xot com, Facebook, LinkedIn, Kick , and Twitch . We stream on all those platforms. After the fact on demand versions of the show at our website twit tv slash I am we do audio and video you can choose. There is a video version on YouTube. There's a dedicated channel for IM. Great way to share lips. And if you subscribe in your favorite podcast client, make sure you leave us a good review so that Paris can do a dramatic reading on next week's episode. We do not have a guest for next week. Maybe we can get this time grammar. I actually think we during the course of the show, I think we did lockdown a guess. Let me make sure. We did. Things happen even when I'm not aware of it. They're working all the time for you all the time . They are like little agents working twenty four seven trying to come up with something . So good. We are going to talk to Ian Bog again in a month because his book The Small Stuff will be coming out . And from Bigspin. AI we'll talk to Christopher Potts at the beginning of July, but we do have a couple of opening. We're one opening, I guess. So do we know Benino who will be here next week for intelligent machine? I'm looking through my email right now. I'm still notified. Somebody somebody was booked. Okay. Yeah, I'm not sure if it was for next week though, but I'm just not sure. All right, well I'm going to get my man kitchen pepper can out and try to find some guests by peppering their little behinds. Do you like pepper? Do you eat a lot of pepper? You don't eat pepper? I wouldn't I don't not eat pepper. I put it, you know, it's one of the spices. How do you eat cheese without pepper? I hate cottage cheese. Well, there you go. Salt. We have one salt. In Paris, we have one pepper mill by the stove and we have one pepper on the table. And we have one on the table . The distance from my stove you're in here not parks. Yeah. I have two reaches would be reach our kitchen is probably the size of your apartment. In the suburban, that's where life is like. Yeah, that's probably true. Yeah . Thank you everybody for putting up with us. Thank you, Paris, for being back. I missed you. We're so glad are out from underneath. Now, does this mean you get a little break or do you have to immediately embark on ? No, I am. I mean, I've got some stuff to take over the next week, but I've decided I'm gonna take two weeks off. So nice . Are you good travel? I think so . I don't know where I haven't I just decided I'm going to take two weeks off as of yesterday so I haven't decided where, but I think there was a similar thing to I did year when I ended up visiting Yuleo, which I think I'm going do to a one way flight to somewhere , rent a car , and maybe go hiking in some national parks, kind of just do a road trip through some states in the US I hadn't been to before. If anybody has any recommendations for national parks that are gorgeous and lovely and not completely swamped over the next month . Let me know. I think you have to go somewhere where there's also a buckies on the way . I'm open to that. BUCE ES. Now why, do we need to go to Bucky's? I've never been It's a phenomenon. It's an American phenomenon. Is it like the seven hundred and eleven ? Oh, oh no. Is it like really? Haven't seen stories about this? Well I feel like I have. You get bris brkisetket. The is diverse. Brisket of buckies. Oh, I like brisket . People go out of their way to go to buckies. If you look up BUC HYFONES . com The one with the beaver . Yes, the beaver. I don't know if we have any buckies in California. You don't. It's a southern thing. The location is Alabama, Colorado, Florida. You must have been to a bucky's been I want to go some tell in Paris. She should all go to a bucky's I can when are you coming to visit him? Yeah, let's all go to Hoober Heights, Ohio. Hate us, Leo, 'cause you never come to see us or your son. Or my son. I'm currently thinking of going to Glacier National Park in London. That's good. I love to see a glacier when it's You know, what's beautiful this time of year is like Victoria and Banf in up in Canada. Yeah. It's supposed to be very nice. Pacific Northwest is very nice in the summer. Well, she did that the last time I did. Oh, you did that last year. That was so great. I didn't spend that much time in Washington, honestly. I could do it again like, that's so good. I don't know the world's mystery. I want to stay in I think the US though. Maybe Canada as well could be in there, but I'd try not to you should probably go to a World Cup game in one of the If I go to a World Cup game , I will be stuck in traffic for the next two weeks. Are you going to any more Nix games or I'm going to a watch party tonight when I go with this all right look in the discord chat if you scroll up a friend just sent me a video 'cause we went to a bar on Monday for game three and you can see what stage in game three this photo was taken based on our reactions You put this in the discord? I did. I'll add not seeing it for some reason. It's was at seven hundred and fifty four . That's our time . So do your calculation. Whatever, yeah, do have you. I see a lot of buckies posts. That's why everybody has to say about that. Oh, it is not going well . It's not going well. If you zoom in it's rough. It's rough. It's going well. There came a time where my friend standing to me on the left of the photo. She's a sports reporter. She was like, and the world's largest Nick fan her entire life is like, I have to stand up . I think this will change the vibes and so it didn't. You are at least wearing an orange scarf, so you in the group. You know, I prepared cute . My old brave new house gets like second row tickets. He goes forever. He's been the greatest fan ever. And he put up a photo of himself in the subway going to and he looked concerned. I said, You look concerned, boss. Today. Amazing. Yeah, today. Amazing. He looked all happier. Well, there was again. I mean for the first time got to win today. Apparently this ref today is supposed to be somewhat more reasonable, but so really it was bad officially it was really bad. I mean this was really bad. Last game, the Knicks were not phenomenal. No, they were not. Even they made some even I could tell that me, a person who's had to have multiple people to me explain the fundamentals of basketball over the last couple months, I could see there were problems . But there was also I mean, there's one thing where he literally tackles Brunson and Nick's player to the ground and they're like, yeah, no foul , no flag and a flagrant is like unnecessary touch or context which was clearly not flagrant by any . Do you get someone to the ground from your hands being your hand? That's not supposed to get people to the ground. I think that's part of the problem. It's kind of part of it. And then short and then shortly thereafter, the Knicks got a flagrant because a player on the Spurs jumped up to shoot and landed on a Knicks player's foot. And they're like, well , you not moving your feet out of the way. That's a flagrant. So this is how I know you just started watching basketball because every finals is like this . I know, but I think it's beautiful that I'm getting to witness this without generations of latent trauma. So I get to experience a crash . No, but that's what makes it even that much sweeter for New Yorkers who have been dry for fifty years. And I think that's also one of the best things about all this is I as a full bandwagon, I mean bandwagoner by Froxy, I just decided to start watching basketball games two months ago, not really realizing I was like, I'll watch whatever New York teams are happening anywhere. And suddenly a New York team is in the finals , everyone who I've met who's been a lifelong Knicks fan that could be like, go , screw yourself. You haven't suffered. They're like, No, the Knicks are welcome. I'm so happy that you're here. Yeah. Here, let me tell you about why Dolan suckss? Yeah, that' a warriors fan ten years ago because we were dry for forty years until we started it was a long