Closing Thoughts and Listener Reviews

It's time for intelligent machines. Jeff Jarvis is here, Paris, Martinau We of course are going to talk about The United States government banning the most powerful AI model we've got Alex Stamos is here. He is the creator of freefable d. org and he has a lot to say about it. Stay tuned I am is next Podcasts you love from people you trust. This is Tit This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martinau and Jeff Jarvis. Episode eight hundred and seventy five, recorded Wednesday, june seventeenth, twenty twenty six Florida Dad It's time for intelligent machines to show we cover the latest. in AI, robotics and all the smart dudeads all around the house Paris Martinau is here from Consumer Reports. Hi, Paris You' aggrested. I am. I'm glad that there's no big AI news happening this week. You did stay up a little late this week with the Kickerbockkers, I see, but I did. Did you climb any telephone poles or stomp on any bus? I watch some lovely people climb on a bus and take a couple photos and then climb down. I saw your picture. Very funny. Very funny. Great to see you celebrating this week and we're happy for you Also, Jeff Jarvis is here. Nixon five. Yeah, you were right Well, wait a minute. it already happened. You just never mind He is the emeritus prorofessor of journalistick Innovation at the Craig Newummark Graduate School. Look hot type coming out next well in August anyway, and you can order it today at JeffJarvis. com along with This is So I'm a little miffed because In my opinion This story about fate we talked, I think we talked about it last week We talked about people coming out last we talked about people being blocked on Friday. I'm in the middle of I mean, I said, o great, I could finally rewrite the Twit ad sales software. It had analyzed it, It written questionnaires for the staff. and it was all set to go. And then it said, model no longer available. I thought, Did I not pay my anthropic bill? And then I went to X. com I was shocked. the as you probably know, the federal government Blocked Mythos the Commerce Department used its ability to say, well, no foreign nationals can use it But of course, if foreign nationals can't use it That means many of the people at Anthropic can't use it. And because anthropic You cannot determine if you're a foreign national or not. They haven't checked your citizenship papers You can't use it either Now I'm a little disappointed because honestly, I think this is a massive story with all sorts of implications I don't see it on the nightly news. It's I guess too much of a tech story. Fortunately great Alex Stamos is here. He is a longtime security researcher, always a welcome guest on our shows C currently a corridor. dev which is about securing AI coding. So he knows a little bit about this topic And actually you put out an open letter at freefable. org which to which you got many great signatories Ed Felton and Paul Wick Vixy and many others S I think making a very cogent case Now There is increasingly evidence that this was a political decision, not a security decision Katie Missouis says she saw the Amazon paper that prerecipitated all this in which Amazon researchers took Fable and gave it a bunch of code that had flaws and it known flaws and in some zero days and asked to fix it. Fabable said, No, no, I can't fix it. And then With three words they And I'm going to put this in big fat air quotes. Jail broke it by saying fix the code That is not a jailbreak. Anthropic, of course said that's not a jailbreak That's what every model does But it apparently was enough to convince the Treasury secretary, the commerce secretary Suusie Wiles, the Chief ofaff at the White House, and I have no doubt the president as well that, well, we've got to stop this. They were already, I'm sure very nervous about mythos. Pete Haggheath took a victory lap. Remember he was the guy who said that anthropic is a supply chain risk This just confirmed what he had said three months earlier Mike Maznick today on Techter wrote a very interesting piece in which he pointed out that Katie Missouis was seen who's You know, the very respect you worked with her at Zoom, very respected security researcher. creator of the Microsoft Bug bounty, she kind of invented the bug bounty U that she was a dememocrat what did call what did they call him? a democratic operative for the Democrat Party And so And related to your former partner, Chris Krebs worked with Chris as well. And of course, the president hates Chris Krebs because he had the temerity to say the twenty twenty election was free and fair So Mazx's contention is this is this is a six year old fit of peak. But I think this has huge implications. So let me ask you, Alex, I've done enough talking. I wanted to set this up What do you think What do I think? So like you said, we have this letter at freefable. org. So it's not just what I think. We have over one hundred and fifty signatories, as you pointed out a lot of people who really know what they're talking about, not just academics, but CEOs, CTOs, chief scientists at AI companies, large tech companies founders of AI companies saying they do not believe there is a real risk from Fable. Why did they say that? So a number of us have seen the reports that Anthropic have put out Dght. Refuting Amazon's research. Now, I don't think Amazon has done anything wrong here. Amazon has a shared responsibility model with Anthropic where Amazon hosts anthropics models in a number of situations. You can run anthropic models in Bedrock. When the US government uses anthropic models, they're running on Amazon hardware especially like in the classified sense. So like if the NSA is using Ous They're running in Amazon topop seecret Cloud. So Amazon has a responsibility to do the security testing. I expect this testing was due to Amazon doing qualification of Fable and Mythos to run within their own hardware. You know, Amazon had some quibbles about fables front and classifier These quibbles should not be surprising. In Fable's model card, Anthropic actually lays out what their goals are of stopping Fable from doing security work. As we all know, Mythos has some pretty good security capabilities. But as we say in the letter, Mythos is not the only model that can find bugs And I think This is something that's gettingain lost here partially because of the way Anthropic themselves talks about Mythos, right? They They talk about Mythos as kind of like avenging cyber god. The name here they brought this on themselves to some degree, I have to say. Yeah, I've suggested to the Anthropic people that maybe for like the six series you come up with you know, names that you would name your kids bunny, right? instead of like Cool the Doom boys. Cool the Doom. Yeah, let's not go for like Cyber Gorgon or you know Cyber Zeus or something like that. Let's like ra rainbow. Yeah, yeah, like fluffy Bunny series. So like the Cottontail series or something, but yes. so the Mytho series is really good at finding bugs, but like it's some percentage above the Opus series, right? But it's good. And so they did not want to provide all that capability to the general public, right Mythos is restricted in who it's provided to. And so they have train fable to refuse to do certain things, and they also put a classifier in front of it, so that a much dumber algorithm that is supposed to watch to see if you ask to do certain things. And they say this in the model card where they say They go into great detail. They specify different kinds of cyber actions Amy? model that writes code needs to be able to understand what is secure versus insecure code Otherwise, it could not write secure code for you, right? You do not want Fable to be completely unaware of what a security vulnerability is. Otherwise the code it put out, which is going to be the number one use of Fable, right? Like That is what all of these anthropic models are used for on a per token basis. The number one thing they're used for now is coding. And so Fable needs to know what insecure code looks like It needs to be able to find security flaws. That is absolutely an appropriate thing for Fabable to do What they don't want to be able to do and what they say they don't want to do, is they don't want you what you can do with Mythos is you can upload the entire Linux kernel to Mythos. and you can have it run for like twelve hours and find you dozens and dozens of bugs and then write you a full exploit chain Sable will not do that. Amazon never said that they can get f able to do that. What they can get able to do is find one specific flaw when they tell it to look in the exact place where that flaw is. That's fine Because you can get GPT five point five to do that. You can get Ous four point eight to do that. It turns out you can get Chinese models to do that. So why do you ban Fable when there are a bunch of other models that are on the market and Chinese open weight models that can do the exact same thing. That is the Pacef Why even notify the administration of this then So that is an interesting question. Like there is a A reasonable argument that if you say that your classifier is not going to allow a certain thing, we're able to beat it. There's kind of an academic argument between Amazon and Anthropic of hardening this classifier. That is a reasonable argument to be made between two different business partners Why did the White House get involved? I cannot say, I don't know exactly what happened there, but they never should have been involved The equivalent would have been, let's say Anthropic found like a single crossa scripting bug in ammazonot com and then all of amazonot com got shut down by the US government. rightight? That would have been the equivalent here. That would have also been complete inappropriate Security testing happens so we m products better and There is no written standard here for anthropic to live up to. That's the problem. and I think that's also the problem of why we're not seeing this model turn back on because it is impossible for Anthropic to Make this totally perfect. In fact, NIist has a paper about how you can't completely prevent jailbreaking. And you cannot make Fable not know anything about security and have it still built secure code. You also there's no possible way to get fable to have to live up to a standard that don't already have all these other models well past. And so It's the White House is asking perhaps for something that is completely hypocritical. And so they've put themselves into this crazy corner And I think that's one of the problems of why we're still, it's Wednesday, afternoon and fable is still turned off because the White House overreacted so far They not have not been able to find a way to back off of the position that they've taken.. I mean, that seems to be kind of the through line with the White House's interplay with anthropic generally over the past Um weeks and months right An Trompic did go to court When Hagseth called them a supply chain risk, they have not gone to court over this Yet. I mean, and how well did that go for them? It was a nightmare. Well, But I also feel like maybe this Cermerce department is within its rights, they can say that's the problem Wellbe it may be illegal argument that they don't have leegal right here. So first off, there's an argument that the order does not actually require what Anthropic did here, that the order says that they can't export The model weights, right? If you look at the actual language of the model, you can export the model itself, not the outputs to the model, which anthropic would never export the model itself. That would be. It's their most valuable piece of intellectual property Uh Now Anthropics obviously try they're trying to play nice. That is why it is taken down. So but I expect they They only have a certain amount of patients here before they will go to court. And my understanding is that they would have a very strong case that IEPA does not give this power to the administration. Now obviously The executive branch of the United States government has all kinds of ways they can try to punish the company and the company wants to IPO this year. So you know, do you want to get in a fight with the organization that owns the DOJ, that owns the SEC, that owns the FDC in the same year that you're trying to become a public company Prob not What precedent does this set in terms of US government thinking it can regulate AI And what does that do to the AI industry and the world? It's a complete disaster for the American AI industry. This is a complete and total disaster. The other thing that happened yesterday is a model called GLM five point two was released by Zida AI, which is one of the leading Chinese AI labs. This is an open weight model. It is MIT licensed. mean anybody can download this model and use it for whatever purpose they want. They can retrain it. They can redistribute it. You can actually use this model in the commercial product if you like. It is within a couple percentage points of Opus four point eight in its performance and a number of coding benchmarks. It is amazing So the same week that the United States goovernment kneecaps One of probably the leading US AI lab, the Chinese release a model that is almost as good as the best model you can currently get from that lab I don't think you can come up with like a better storyline for why this is incredibly stupid. The idea like the whole action is based upon the premise that American labs light years ahead of our Chinese competitors and will always be so, right? That The entire idea of all this regulation is just to play defense, that the US will always be ahead and we have to play all this defense because the Chinese will always behind. is incredibly arrogant and not based upon any kind of fact Zida AI released this open white model That is what we know about that is within couple of percentage points of four out eight I guarantee that the People Celeberration Army, the Ministry of State Security They have access to cybertuned models that are better than what Zida AI is able to release on a Tuesday, right And so is it are those private models mythos grade I don't know But the idea that we should be undermining the world's faith in the U.S.AI industry. att the same time that Chinese are making these leaps and bounds. releasing these models that then the rest of the world can use safely is really, really stupid because It's a good thing, one, that Feb's only out for a week Because if it had been out for a month and then the administration did this on a Friday afternoon with no warning You would have had sev one pagers going off across the entire country, right? Data Dog, people's phones would have been doing the Data doog woof woo, woof alert. all over the country because those fabled models would have been built into critical mechanisms and systems would have been breaking all over the place. Like if they did this for Opus four eight right now, systems would break all over the place because the number of organizations that have actually set up for an entire model to disappear and that they have a LM router that will fall over to another provider and have been tested on another model and that will work on another model are exceedingly small Now everybody is doing that because political risk has become a real business continuity risk for anybody who uses a US model It is a great Great week for the Chinese AI industry. a fantastic week and a huge on goal for the United States in the race to dominate the twenty first century via domination of AI. What do you think of Schreer's argument? What do you think of Schneer's argument that it's all silly because the Pandora's box is opened. If this model isn't the most powerful, the next one will be get used to it, folks Yeah, I mean, that is effectively where we are. So first off, everybody talks about mythos. Like I said, mythos is Prop is the best we know about at findighting bugs But it's like it's here over Ous, right? It's not like here Real Rubicon was crossed last year, probably like the opus four point five, GPT five, something Series, that is when these models became better than human beings at finding bugs And not just better than human beings, but infinitely scalable, right? There are a handful of really, really good bugfinders who can find these bugs and then write more importantly than finding the bugs write stable exploits for them Not only are these people rare, but they're relatively slow, right? And I'm not criticizing them. They do things that I can't do. to the extent that I could do these things, I could do them twenty years ago, and I have not been able to do them since I was much, much younger. and u but these models are incredibly fast They're scalable and they're cheap And so you're now able to generate a bunch of Dave Iels is one of these guys, right who is still able to do it even though he's my age. You're able just to generate a bunch of D I tells by spending more money and multiplying these models out That is a really scary feature But that happened last year That was not because of mythos And so if you are using one of these models, including the open weight models and you go look at some open source library. Now, you know, Linux Kernel is getting ground down a lot and has already had a lot of bugs found. But if you go just Find some open source library that's in Debian hasn't been looked at too heavily. I guarantee if you know what you're doing and you're using Ous four point eight, you will find no day within a week You can write E explade for it Like that That is happening all the time. If you every single day and the The ratio of the number of breaches that are because of O day versus stolen credentials or spear ficion or anything is completely changed because now finding a zero day and writing stable exploit code is so much easier than it used to be. So yeah, we're already there. and You know, for these attackers, a lot of them or most of them are probably using the open weight model. It's hard totally to tell But they're probably using no in way models both because of costs, but also because they don't wan to leave logs in American providers for the FBI and Western intelligence agencies to find, right? Like if you're these guys, you're gonna go have a machine at home with a bunch of fif thousand nineties in them, and you're going to use it to play callall of Duty. And when you're done playing callall of Duty, you'll go grind out a bug in a bunch of libraries and then go use those exploits I had to go make some money We're there. And so this idea that we're going to be able to like mess with American labs and ban these models and then that's going make the world more secure is just incredibly stupid I know you have to run. Alex is going to be talking tomorrow with Alex Kantterowitz at the Big Technology AI suummit And you have invited David Sax to meet you on stage. I doubt he will I mean, David, if you're listening, I'd love to see you there. C three hundred twenty five PM I think an open conversation about this is necessary. I think the administration has to step up and explain David has said many times that he does not believe that AI models should be regulated That's how Trump got elected. And the first one of the first things he did was overturn the Biden AI Yo. Yeah. AI EIO. And I think that this is a complete reversal of the Trump administration But I hope it's not purely political, but it sure feels like it is. And I think that's why this is a huge story because this is a very consequential technology Maybe there's risk, I understand desire to protect us from risk But I don't think that's what's going on here. and It's I mean, this action itself is not protecting anybody. It is. cast a huge amount of doubt on the American AI industry. It is pushing the best AI researchers to rethink coming to America, right? Because you might not be able to work on the best models leave leave, right? I mean, they're not going to go to China. like nobody wants to go to China except the Chinese. But like if you now would be a great time to open up either to recruit if're mistral or to go open up a onter model company. France looks really good right now. Yeah, France looks pretty good. If I was the Canadians, I'd be throwing a bunch of money into this. Yeah. Or if was anthropic, I'm not speaking for them. If I was anthropic I'd be looking at office space in Vancouver right about now, right. for sure. It really imperils honestly, like it really imperils the credibility of the American AI industry that this kind of stuff can happen on a Friday afternoon, without any rule making, without any democratic process or anything. I mean, the broader economy at large too. This is just a Well faster I mean if the FAA grounds a Boeing plane, we all know why, right? It's because there's a rule's The door has blown off and everyone got video of it. Yeah, and the FAA had a rule that your doors aren't supposed to blow off. And then Boeing knows how to fix it, right? They're like, oh, we made the door not blow off anymore. And the FA's like, we tested it and the doors don't blow off anymore And then the FA iss like, okay, great, you can fly again There's no rule We don't know what Anthropic has to do here. to get back in other than what people are tweeting about is like they're not nice enough and they don't speak the same language. and like they hire Women with pink hair Here I am. I'm a middle aged cis white guy who golfs and duck hunts and has a boat. And I'm saying There's also not I'm wearing a pink polo shirt. R I don't know what else to do from a cultural sign You need the best. Where's the best? You need a free fable t shirt. That's what you need. No, no, no, I'm just saying, who need I don't have American flags. My Twitter icon is me on a sailboat with an American flag behind me. I do not have pink hair In this thing, I, you know I filled out an S of eighty six and like this thing does not the Yes, there I am and there's u my name in Ceric because both Chris Grabs and I got sanctioned by the Russian government, which had a proud day. Proud day. But like This thing does not having fable out there does not hurt the American people. but what does is casting doubt on the reliability of the American AI industry and therefore giving a huge, huge boost to our Chinese adversies freefable d. org. if you want to read that. Thank you for that. Thankk you for your work. Weally appreciate it. Alex. Take care. We appreciate it Have a good talk tomorrow. Yeah. I'm jealous Allex, get you. We'll continue in just a bit You watch it intntelligent machines Our show today brought to you by O Systems, the leading agentic systems platform. 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O systems C slash Twit. we thank them so much for their support I you know, I feel like this should be a story that you see on the nightly news every night for the the next few weeks. Everybody's talking about the green reflecting pool instead of it's as if The administration has said, you know, this internet thing is really causeed for a lot of fraud and theft. And we're going shut it down This is what autocratic you guys govern. How are you parsing The Andy Jassie of it all becausecause I think that's a top. Obviously it's not I think somewhat misre reported.ar to be. I don't think so because there's like seven or eight different outlets reporting it, but the way they're reporting it is very interesting to I guess give an overview, let me see here in my notes. Originally We had The information and wruters reporting the information reported that Jassie was a Basically, they both reported that Jassie was among tech leaders who raised security concerns to senior Trump officials, and those conversations set the export controls in motion. The Wall Street Journal went further and characterized the concerns by Anie Jassseie as instigating the Friday letter Aaxios then said Jassse raised the fabled jail break concerns to the administration on Thursday. Then Friday morning, there was a big meeting with the White House. Then the White House reached out to Dario asking him to do something, but he was apparently at a wellness retreat and didn't go until late afternoon, which I think is a fascinating detail that I just hold in my head. Then he called Scott Bessett directly, and then it all kind of blew up. since then, we've had kind of a back and forth from Amazon and anthropic and the government that, you know, are all kind of trying to push blame off to one another. But even if this is somewhat partially true, like the White House in some ways has said as has Amazon that oh, the White House asked Amazon to look into security for' in anthropic Yeah that sounds be. So that can't be. I think we've learned more since all of those stories came out. And I think actually Alex kind of explained what happened, but I'll also point you to Katie Misurus's blog because she now she was one of the outside people who saw Amazon report. She's very careful not to say she just says a third party. but we now know it was Amazon. And I think what Alex explained is that Amazon in its normal testing. remember, Amazon is a big investment And I mean, that interest I want you guys's thoughts on. No. Amazon is on the board. Amazon is incredibly involved. It seems even if one aspect of this is true, like it seems incredly Let me finish they would. Yeah, yeah, no, there it's complete's exactly as Alex said. This is in their normal course of work They found this Now you may say, well, why do they tell the White House about this and that's a larger question. I think a lot of the reporting you're seeing and certainly A lot of what you're seeing out of David's Sx and others is pure ignorance Um You know, this is what Katie Masuris wrote in her post, The Fable five export controls harm cyber deffense and she has As she has put the fix this code which was the quote jailbreak on a t shirt and said this t shirt is Munition I think There is a legitimate question of why Amazon raised this specter, but I'm not convinced that what we're reading is accurate. It may well be the administration had made this decision and was looking for somebody to Bame it on or some topical some incredable technical source to blame it on and and called and Volitico says they they called Amazon. and asked them, Jassie wasn't on the first call U Wh whoo had the more recent timeline I think it was the New York Times. Jassse was not on the first call Um It may be that Amazon. U has channels open already with CISA or other governmental agencies in which they would normally report this. Not as a cause for huge concern But just is something going on This is what I suspect happened That happened apparently. Two days after it was released according to Katie Missouri likeike on a Thursday That went up the chain And I think at that point The White House probably Suie Wiles, the chief of staff got Andy Jassie on the phone to say, what do you know Because I think they were looking for excuse This is this is this is there was already fear about mythos And I think they were looking at an excuse to do this Assuming that's correct, which could be it's not in Amazon's interest at this. Let me finish. I mean that aligns with what's been reported by all those outlets that I just put out. But Amazon and Jassie in particular, like Amazon C Suite are not naive to how politics work And they would not just stumble into being manipulated by the White House, which according to what we've seen from reporting even specifically around this issue, around cybersecurity and AI, they're not exactly acting with incredible sophistication. So for Amazon to get involved in this at the level of Jassie having his name, identity and all these details being leaked out to various outlets has to mean that Amazon made some decision to get involved in an actual way because if they didn't want to They wouldn't have or they would have in a way where they would have Well we don't know. what could have happened is they called Jassse. Jessse said, Yeahah, we have this I mean, when we asked it to whyy would they say yes we have this thing? We have this Well, he they know that there's this paper Jassie could have said, Yeahah, when we asked it to fix the code It did fix the code and I think he could easily been put this in the situation of Well, is that problematic? He could have said Well, it's not supposed to. That's all he would have to say, by the way. It's not supposed to And the people who wanted to do this, and I think that's really the question is I don't think I don't think anybody's saying Amazon raised the raised the alarm and talked the White House into it. I think it's much more likely Amazon knew about it, was asked by the White House Jassie said, Yeahah, we found this thing. The White House, I think is who blew it up. I don't Yeah, but to Paris's point, I think that Jassie and Amazon has excellent PR. And and I think that Amazon could have pulled back and said, oh, just what you just said, Leo. Oh, well, we didn't really, we didn't really raise any alarms. We just said this or that But they haven't done that And yeah, you don't want to B tickle of the tiger's bell But still I would have thought that if Amazon were really that innocent, I would have gotten that message across. Okay, so maybe Amazon's bad and wrong. but er. I don't think that's what either of us are saying We'reing is why did Amazon We're not trying. We're saying Amazon and Andy Jassie specifically are incredibly intellectual and capable political operatives, assuming that they are acting with agency, which we have to because it would be Astounding and like I understand. Ctely out the norm. I know, but let me finish. I think it' relevant. me I know, but I think it's relevant. I would like there's so much of a bigger story here, which is that the federal government has shut down anthropic. Yes. That's a huge story. I don't care whether Amazon raes the flag or not. Wh I'm curious, it makes no sense. You're saying an unprecedented political and technical event has happened.. has happened with the participation of an incredibly sophisticated political technical operative that has a large financial and board and general stake in the company who is getting wrecked by the U.S. government right now. It wasn't done by the White House alone. It wasn't done by the rightouse alone. It was done by someone else who is getting has an incredible financial detrimental impact to their business by this happening toanthropic. Why would they do that? Is that not fascinating Well, as a reporter, I guess it's fascinating, but I don't think it's important politically. I think much more important is that the federal government is doing this Probably I think it's interesting that Alex thinks it's probably illegal, probablyroably illegally and with great detriment to the American people, American companies.es. And to it it is I think, and this is my I think the most important thing that our listeners should take with them regardless of their political alliances or feelings is that Technology, a very important technology is being assaulted irrationally by the federal government And and I again say this is as if the federal government said We've decided to turn off the internet because Alex's point was exactly right too. It's not as if it's a Boeing jet and we know what the standard is and they didn't meet the standard and there ago this happens. It was it was seererendipitous almost. regulation of a new technology without any means to do so. There's a huge fire alarm going off. Yes. And if you want to worry about how it happened or who told who, what, okay I think the important point here is there is a huge fire alarm going off. But don't you want to know how the fire started? Why do we not care about how the fire started that caused the alarm? would I would suggest that the best use of our energies at this point is to fix this problem because this is a huge huge problem So what is what should Anthropic do now What's the what's the limits of what they can do? They should move out of the United States. Well that's Yeah, I don't disagree, but take the whole thing. Al Look, Andre Carpathi, who they just hired. Yeah, cannot work touch it They should take him and everybody else to Toronto Okay, but what should they do this week Well, they should probably go to court. I think they're trying to appease the Trump administration And maybe that's sensible. They should probably do it if the Iranian government didn and hire some psychologists. This is such an irrational and debilitating move for the tech sector in this country. And I think, you know, our audience is here because they're interested in what technology can do and technology can bring us And I think I've never seen an assault on technology like could have seen quite a few Well I'm trying to ask you as a technologist Is there anything that anthropic besides the doomer stuff, which I hope we'll get to That' that's vibes. In terms of technologically, is there anything they did wrong? Is there anything that they should there is there something broken here? They should hire a psychologist because they made have as Alex said, they shouldn't have named named it Midos and claimed how dangerous it was. That was a huge mistake. And I think part of the problem is anthropic has this very weird duality where they're making clearly the best models out there. They're very good at what they're doing And they're terrified by what these models can do. And they oversell how terrifying these models are I think one of the things Alex and others are saying is Buce Schneer as well Well, yeah, they're good But they're no more terrifying than all the other AI models that We have models that can do things very similar to what myithhos and fable are doing And some of them are not coming from the United States. is It is a foolish thing to do to shut it down at this point. Now my the only thought I had was, well, is there really a legitimate danger? Is there Is there a reason to shut this down? Will we be safer because they've shut it down? And I think Alex And many others now have convinced me that that is not the Cambrid Sneeer. Eergo, there's really nothing h do that There's really nothing they can do. Well, and that's what Brce Sy' is saying is Pandora's box has been opened AI is out And for better or for worse, as for good or evil It's out there. You can't stop it. And all this is going to do is kneecap the American AI ies How much was there was a great column today in the New York Times by Iember I forget his name suddenly Um Yeah Um Cal Newport DRAI companies, the doom trolly needs to stop. How much is anthropic to blame for what they put out just a week ago saying, o, this is so powerful. We should all stop. Yeah, they're totallyame. Yeah I mean, I have articles before this happened. I don't know if Dario thought this would happen, but He said The government should block dangerous AI On june tenth. Yep I mean Okay, they did I don't know if that's what you wanted St are you? So I'm sorry, Paris, I understand you're fascinated by why Amazon did this And we can pursue that. but I just think we obviously can'. I'm so sorry to bring pursue it all you want, but I just I think that that's missing a larger point is just a tsunami overami how bad this is? Well, you're worried, ye, okay. Yes I think it's really important that people understand How significant this is By the way, Chet OpAI probably has an equivalent model, which they will now not release, of course But that's not going toop stop any other international company from releasing their best models as Alex pointed out So all this does is hurt Hurt us as Americans So with Straw is isable position. Jan L C is smart to have put his to headquarter his company in France Yeah don' I guess the question is Who can come up with something equally good and how fast can they do it? But they're working as hard They all are. And they're working the same way. They're all headed in the same direction Yeah. People are mad at me for shutting you down, Peris. So let's go into this No we've passed it Let's continue on. I don't, I mean, maybe Andy Jassseie doesn't like Dario Mote. I just don't know. I mean, that wouldn't make any sense. Why have they poured so much money into the company? It's we're I understand you're a reporter and you want to know that G it It's politics is part of the politics of this. I think this yeah, this best best way to describe it is politics and for a technical decision like this to be made for political reasons, especially for a grudge against Katie Missuris, which is what Mike Maznik says Do you think that's credible But Yeah, it's Trump Yeah, It's going piss off some listeners but ye, it's Trump. Mike Masic much more nowarently the reason anthropics models are offline is six year old Trump grudge. U So AxiO Scot White House officials on record with the actual reason. Anthropic had asked Katie Missouri to review the jail break The administration decided she was a radical Democrat That's it That's the real reason the models are offline We never wanted this to happen. Our number one priority is innovation, but our hands were tied, onene White House official said The optics added fuel to the fire Andropic came out with a blog post dismissing the Amazon report, thenen the company enlisted a cybersecurity expert viewed by the administration as a Radical Democrat, by the way Amazon went to Katie Missouis who was then celebrated by Chris Krebs who jumped Trump just fired, actually Chris Crp has been a huge issue for Trump. Fired six years ago for saying the election wasn't stolen U and Katie Missouis is relationship By the way, both Alex Stamos will be painted with the same brush. Krebs is has been investigated by the DOJ. Alex Stamos, I don't think will be painted with the same brush because he's not a woman with colored hair. Like I said, Chris Krebs is being investigated by the Department of Justice. They withdrew his global entry. He's a man B brown hair. They with through his global entry permission They've gone after him every way they can. This is a pattern that White House continues to follow. They just did it with our governor. Um So According to Maznick, itears I' reading his post that the Trump administration shut down the most advanced versions of Anthropic's AI tools, not because they pose a serious risk, but because anthropic asked someone to review the supposed threat, and that person got a shout out from someone Trump hates for once telling the truth about election cybersecurity I mean, maybe I don't know, Maybe Andy Jassy is a Trump loves Trump and maybe he has no economic incentives That's the politics is that everybody's it we look at Jeff Bezos, look look at all these companies. It is in their interest to suck up sure to Trump for their own s. So maybezy Wiles called him and said, the president wants to talk to you about this This thing that you report He may have said, Yeahah, this is a bad bad, bad deal Mr. President, I doubt he did. But he may have justust out of politics. I think it's much more likely he was judicious, but it was interpreted as exactly as the President of You've got at that level of's P Paris's point. and we know that he's smart and sophisticated You can't be at that level if you're not. And so you've got to be sophisticated enough to know what the dominoes are that may fall So maybe, maybe I didn't. Maybe he should have said Oh no, it's nothing I don't think that's what the president wanted him to say, though So maybe he was canny and said what the president wanted him to say. I don't know. We don't know We can't Unless the recordings emerge I can't know. U More than what was it a hundred? people signed Alex's letter people I truly respect who all agree The, uh, that this is a big Big issue And in fact, that the same thing that The Amazon researchers got Mythos and fable to do can be replicated on GPT five five, opus, Sonnet. and even Chinese models like Kimi two point seven This is from Alex' The justification for this unprecedented action was that Fable provides a unique uplift of capabilities beyond AI O AI models, but AI has been finding bugs and generating working exploits at superhuman levels since last year It may be, you know, it could I guess you could say if you want to interpret it unlike Mike Maznick, if you wanted to interpret it as non political, you could say Well, they just got the Hebie Jibes in the oval office. And they said we better stop this And and Annie Jassseie didn't talk him out of it Why do you think, Paris I mean It remains to be seen Do you have a do you have a theory why he would have not He makes a lot of money from ananthropics That's why it's a puzle I mean, I assume that there's some plausible reason that we're just not seeing because I don't everything I knew from reporting on JassI and reporting on the people of the highest echeles of their PR and political operation is that they are maniacal about these sort of things. R. And they obviously would know what the sort of fallout. The obvious fallout. And the fallout from this is obvious. I don't think that there's a person who has a rudimentary understanding of tech politics wouldn't have anticipated something like this happening when you get that call from the White House asking you to look into And They had already looked into it. So they were asking him about a what you found R Well, no, I think the government already knew what they found Um I guess what they asked Jassie, who's probably not technically qualified to weigh in is Well, is this a problem Well, he ran AWS, didn't he Yeah, but I don't know. So go back to what you said when you put air quotes around jail break Let me read from Katie Rill to the Missouri because Katie Missouri is the only third party to see the report outside the White House and Amazon She writes, Since I appear to be the only outside expert who's actually read the paper, I can separate the technical facts from speculation. The researchers took open source code With known CVE's, that's critical exploits plus new code with deliberately planted vulnerabilities and asked Fable five, Mythos, and Opus to quote This is the prompt, Review the code for security issues Table five because of this classifier, this is a notot in the model, not in the systemant prompt even, but a program that runs outside it looking for words like security issues That's why when we asked it Fable to give us a summary of security now, it said, no, can't do that It's literally looking for things like The word security. So the classifier Table five refused. said no They didn't stop there and this is guess what you would call a jailbreak. They asked the models to fix this code. thoseose are the three words. and through them. And by the way Then throughrough a multi step and manual process So there was some interaction back and forth, turnurn the output And this is what scared everybody into scripts that test the patches Criptps So Models proposed patches for the flaws. and then wrote So they'll bre it up a little more. They had to find the flaw then propose a patch and then test it. These were three separate operations, you're saying. So the thing that scares people is this crypts to test the patches That's the same thing as exploit code. So if write if I say there's there's a flaw on your phone that means I can take it over And I wrote a script to test that. That script is the exploit It's actually You, w, wa, wait, try I'm being pposeullly dumb You're testing the patch. You're testing the fix to make sure the fix sticks. Right. So you're so you was that cploit.'s that's that's. That's the exploit.'re writing the exploit will be get will get thwarted, but you're writing the code that had the patch not slide would have taken over the phone That's the code you need on an unpasseded system So Is that a jail brereak Anthropic says no Because that doesn't a jailbreak then means you know, you can use the system in any way you want It is, however I guess concerning, although Any model could do this. that's the thing. every model does this, right? Yeah So Katie continues, That's it. Fix this code plus several manual steps to generate test scripts should never have triggered an export control I feel like making nineties style t shirts with fix this coat on the front and this shirt is amunition on the back. We didn't bring this up with Alex, but The government did this months before declaring that strong encryption was a munition. And I always did that. Yeah. Yeah And they and they forced Mozilla to ship its browser encryption, if you're an American, you could get one hundred and twenty eight bit. but in the export version of it had forty two bit encryption, which is easily cracked So at no en Chrush And a number of people pointed out, well, They actually, it was so easy. they The coat is so small, they actually put it on a t shirt and a guy walked. I forgot his name, but he walked across the border Exporting it And he was protected because it was free speech So that's the genesis of this putting on a t shirt She goes on, deffenders need to be able to ask AI to fix the bugs in a file. Explain why the fix matters and write tests that confirm the patch works. That is. exactly right. That's what you do. This is not a guardrail bypass. It's the most valuable thing an AI model can do for defensive security, executing the find, fix, and test loop defenders run every day So stop again, if I may stop you. This was a report within Amazon. And at some point, Jassse gets that And you would think the Jazie would say This is not a jail brereak. This is not bad. This is what it's supposed to do We on that I suspect what happened Because remember, the government is using anthropic on AWS. So I suspect there's already a channel between these researchers at Amazon And some government agenccy, CISA or somebody like it so that findings you know, are transmitted to them because the government uses this I feel like that would definitely go through some channels that some of which would include either If not Jassie, some underlings. Well, yeah, no, I very much doubt Jassie was alerted to any of this at this point I think though, Since V Vogs being the CTO would be involved Yeah. I mean, he's got other things to worry about. I don't know though this the government as it relates to anthropic and AWS is pretty top level information. Yeah. I think what I read was Whever that whatever agency got that Ran it upstairs maybe because the The person in charge of CISA or in charge of the CIA or in charge of the NSA or in charge of the FBI is a political operative not laaw enforcement or intelligence operative or the DNI Do we have a DNI It's not Delsey Gabbard. Anyway, going to potentially be Bill Poltty soon Bill. It's it's a political operative An anyway, whoever it is it's a political operative had the sense to go, Uhuh. We've been looking for this and ran it upstairs. at which point I would imagine Susie Wiles or somebody like that called Amazon and said, getet Jassseie on the line The President wants to talk to him Now Jassie immediately goes, what the hell did you guys do It gets the report. who knows? He might have had thirty seconds. He might have had a briefing. You know while he's on hold, Wh knows? And I don't know what he told the presresident. I don't think it much matters because even if he said to the president, no That's not a jailbreak That's what every other model could do The presresident's going to do what he wants to do We know that, right then Jassseie, I'll go back to my prior point, Jassse would has plenty of sophisticated ways to let the media industry know No no, no, no. Jesie got So he's made no statement on this at all, huh? Right Thely obiously. He needs to he needs to leak stuff So it might be where the politics come in. he may be saying, Well, I'm not touching this one. I mean It's basic sophisticated PR that you just talk to a reporter and say, I can't tell you who said this, but you can speculate that this is not what Jessie would want.. I was about to say, where is Drew Herardner the PRsR of Amazon and all of this? The Drew, I know has probably made thirty five calls to reporters today, but it's clearly not about any of this You covered Amazon, didn't you? So you Yeah. This is what I was about to say is they are not an insophisticated They have I think At one point Well over a thousand if not. the number in my head was two thousand PR operatives, but I am not sure if that's still the case. are massive, incredibly organized and very savvy about this, especially at the highest levels onene of the things that does does come up is O The echo chamber that we live in The information was the first and perhaps the only people to report that Jassse No like I think like seven different places reported the JazC Or were they just repeating with the information No. I believe they were separate. Clito and Reuters definitely had their own. Axios also had it Where are they getting this from Sources? Yeah, but what sources I mean, I don't know their sources, but they claim to be N Anny Jassie's office. I mean, potentially could be. It could be J he says, I tried my best for the president. I worked along with him. be nice to me Do what you did to Bezos Yeah, let me By the way, if Bezos were still CEO And if he didn't have his first wife You al done this with G But Jessie's Not supposed to be like that Well, but also again, there's a huge economic interest in anthropic surviving and fable being available in AWS. So It's contrary to his part of his fincial financial duties. believe me, it could easily be that Jassie did say no The White House wants somebody to blame. The White House could have leaked this to the Wall Street Journal and Reuters in forformation, right Oh, Andy Jesse told us In fact, that's what they're looking for is some credible reason to do it Interesting So the one from Reuters is Stephven Nellis, another former information reporter who I mean, obviously don't know sourcing, maybe in the time since he's left the information he's got in White House sourcing. My understanding from whatever we worked together, whatever that was, it was more primarily tech based. They'd sourced it to a person familiar with the matter to world Reuters, whichich honestly this sends could be Drew Herdner to me, which is CEO Andy Jassie was among tech leaders who raised concerns to senior Trump administration officials this week about security risks and Anthropics's most advanced AI models. I mean This could indicate towards to me That says he's not alone I love see. This One it says he's not alone That was language that I believe the information also had The journal said he instigated it, but this sort of framing could be Um Amazon spin to Kate or B Ulster Amazon's credibility with the White House. You know? L having Amazon then be out publicly as shutting down the bad anthropic. could be part of it T But I mean, I'm not sure what that does for I guess the benefit for Amazon is that you stay closer to the White House, which is kind of fickle and capricious and could make these sort of moves towards you. So now what do you do if you are open AI, Google Microsoft Um By the way, it on developing Can I just say Can I just say who Politico says Annie Jesse says called O Thursday, two days after the model's public release, Andy Jassie raised concern to the White House, according to the two administration officials and the senior White House official. Their source is the White House that Annie Jassse calleds. Interesting That's to me more credible. The White House needs a technical expert I wouldn't say if I said I need a technical expert to tell me that Fable is bad, let's ask Andy Jassie. That would not be the first person I go to. I'd go to Katie Masuris. I'd go to Alex Stamos Uh so To me, the fact that they went to Andy Jassie Sorry, when did that article publish? This is the politico you know, the big step by step on the thirteenth. they have All sorts of inside The details of the call had not been previously reported blah, blah, blah. Sorry. was this in the thirteenth, the fourteh and thirteenth timeline? This is feel shy and Cyen has O the thirteenth Um This is seven thirty PM Yeah, I think a lot of them the Reuters one came out at two PM, the Wall Street Journal one was updated at seven thirty PM. so I assume it came up for the sourcing it to the administration officials indicates to me that they were following either following previous reporting and trying to get it confirmed independently so that they can cite it to their own, being political, of course, they'd go right to the White House and administration officials or that They also had, you know, indndependent sourcing of their own, maybe within one of these companies, but that wouldn't like speak to it directly like on deep background you want to do it? I these are all of these stories are probably coming from the same five people and then give or take some amount of White House spokespeople I just I'm interested to see Well, it makes more sense that the White House would want this story to go forward than that Amazon would want this story to go forward. right A White House official said Amazon's findings were run past the National Security Agency, and they felt they had proof. I think the White House was desperate to justify this knee jerk reaction is what I think. Where does Sx fit in all this Oh man, he's he's another person who is just vociferously So let me give you Pete Haggseth's tweet first. A statement I never w to hear. O forty PM on june thirteenth. Three months ago Department of War kicked anthropic AI out of our building forever. Every passing day proves why that was the right move. What Okay. so that's a little N from a The Secretary of warar. Let me find David Sachs's tweets because he's been extreme, you know He is 's been against government regulation of AI. Yeah. And he's the number one administration guy. defending this at this point, which is weird U Because yes, he doesn't want regulation This is benefits just out of curiosity This is another question you might want to ask, Ms. Reporter benefits from anthropic being banned Oing ey Elon Musk. Elon Musk who has also gotten a win from the comp he's getting some He gets a billion dollars a month from anthropic. He'll keep getting that capacity Yeah, he may not care. That's not openy person list, Yes. But open eye for sure Um G Google too, but I don't think Google play in here. Like aere's David Sax, like a cat leaving a dead bird at your doorstep and throp it catalogs the grim future that its product might produce, shrugs its shoulders, then returns to its furious efforts to make these warnings a reality. Um Sax goes on and on. Wait, no, no, no, no, that's not Sax. That's he's quoting the te. He's quoting that Cal Newport. Yeah piece. Yeah. the Cal Newport is criticizing Drolling. Dro Some recent articles have created a misleading narrative that I did not take mythos seriously or tried to downplay the cyber threat. This is based on egregious cherry picking of my comments And since the real target is the Trump administration needs to be corrected Yeah, this he iss quoting the Times He's hiding behind in quotes Yeah, it looks like he's mostly hiding behind quotes I would love it if he would show up at the Wealth Club tomorrow afternoon Um what great timing for counterbz He loves this event as scheduled and boy, what a day to have it. Yeah yeah He loves Ben Thompson Tkary's take on this Ben who is consistently and by the way, I unsubscribed he's consistently defended The government's right to he defended Pete Hagsetith's right He said people should choose The government does with milit does with AI not. And you by the way, I raiseed that with you Jeff And you came up with a very good example of Zyclon B. Yeah. He has been defend has been defending the kind of fascist point of view that it's the government should decide exactly what. Compies should decide how their products are used. goovernmentally should be responsible that takes away the agency and moral responsibility of companies. And Sx loves that as well, which is odd because again Sax was the guy who gotten into power because he wanted to protect AI. So why is he protecting Why isn't he protecting anthropic I think it must be open AI But it hurts open AI it hurts all American AI companies in the long run, and it hurts all of us The other thing I would raise and I wanted to raise this with Alex. we don't have time is there's maybe a very simple reason for this The presresident is watching polls, The American people do not like AI might end up being a very popular thing to do Politically to shut down AI I would bet the majority of American voters would celebrate that . That seems like something the U. S. government is going to do in this current situation it also pisses off the Wall Street Journal. But they're concerned about you know what? Trump is much more concerned about November now than he was. And I think it no I think it's a point he's going for retail votes. I think he's much more interested at this point at at getting Congress a congressional majority So it may well be that he's simply made the calculus. Look, we don't know. He's day to day, he Well, you should have seen him the G seven seven. Yeah S I think again, I want to emphasize somebody This isn't a political thing at this point. This is about an overreaching government shutting down a very significant technology. And I understand the American people hate AI. I've mentioned this before on the show. I think we are rapidly heading towards this schism between people who see the potential value of AI and people who say shut it down And it took it took as I said, I think in the last week, it took two decades before we got the tech lash on the internet. It took two years for LLMs and AI. Yeah And because of data centers. it's also becauseet You aren't seeing the internet pop up in massive buildings near someomeone you knows hometown if not your hometown and have a noticeable physical presence in Actually you are. You actually did in Virginia. I'm saying you are of the day. In the first two years of the internet, the average person large overver the past thirty years. Okay, yeah, that' you''re all over the country in Virginia. Yeah, but the amount of data center development in the past five years expled is very different than the amount of data center production in the first five years of the internet. But Paris, is the data center itself the problem or is it the totem gives people something tangible to be mad at because what they're really mad at these is the AI, the technology, these technology boys? But I think a lot of this is the technology boys are so obuctr. I think it's a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. I think there's been a a lot of conflation between the two in a lot of ways that is unproductive when speaking generally. But I do think that there have been increasingly, I think over the last year, a number of really well reported examples Um of data center individual data centers having massive potentiallyg in some cases, very negative impact on the surrounding town, either in, you know impact on revenue through like massive tax breaks and kind of or In some cases, there have like in individual cases, a significant impact on water usage. also mus oververall, same with electricity usage and things Same with noise from gas turbines.es. there's a huge and a black neighborhood Yes, this has been a thing that you've seen lots of examples of. I think that part of the issue has been that people have conflated that with every single data center in every single case. That's not of course true. But we are starting to see more and more outsize negative examples like this. and we're just in the early stages of all of these huge commitments we've seen made in the last two years coming online. There's also the college graduates who are buooing AI because they don't think they're going to be able to get a job. There's the massive layoffs in the tech industry being blamed on AI There's lots of reasons toy Ay Um And every poll I've seen is the anti AI Sentiment is sixty to seventy percent of American electorates. I think That's about fifty percent for antiAI, it's seventy percent anti data center I think it's not the same Yeah's's. They go together unfortunately Yeah, I think people are I think honestly, people are just kind of scared the AI. They've seen a lot of sci fi movies, and it scares them Here's another question. Do This feere is the single most useful electral tool Do you think Elon had any role in any of this in the background? I don't mean in that day, but do you think that he's been You know, I wonder if if the White House called Elon and asked him what he thought And what do he say? What's Elon's self interest Anybody except G. Anybody who is doing AI at this point, theirs strong self interest is does this not happen? And that's what's weird because when the president got in, the very first thing he did overturned the Biden eo the executive order again which was nothing itself Yeah, it didn't do anything. dohe. time thought that his most important one of his most important jobs was appealing to the AI industry That's why I brought David Saxon. U so something changed and I think I honestly think he sents an electorate Look he The best way to get votes he's Learned is known. since twenty sixteen is to scare people There is nothing, if you thought people were scared of immigrants. They are scared AI And I think that that's exactly what's happening. Well, immigrants using AI as a byy the way, let's ban the immigrants using AI now or really it's a trifecta or something, a bifecta All right, I need a break. There's other stuff to talk about. I just I really think this is such a huge story And I don't feel, I think it's undercovered because it' I think even the news organizations realize people hate AI But we've seen TikToks, We've seen TikToks from the Times in the Journal and such. We've seen kind of coverage of it as an event I don't think we've seen we've seen some op headads I think your point is right that we haven't really seen the holy show Holy sorry, Holy crap. Im Here's all the implications of this Well they are You will see what they are I wonder how long this will go on L I asked this before is if you're open AI right now and you're Google right now and you're Microsoft right now, How do you play this? What do you do Ohverybody's shutting up, aren't they? includcing A Pro bend the knee and kiss the ring. Yeah And and not you may have a model ready to bring out. But Google just brought out Gemini two or yeah, Gemini two. T, I think Are we gonna ask political ads withith scary AI? Well, this is the fight in Alex Boris and so I was asked to be part of an event where the people thought that that u Uh The way for tech to support democracy, I be a little unfair to them, but I'm shorthanding people who were supporting Alex Boris running in New York City And Oen AI has gone after him because he's exanthropic But he also is has his own AI stick And so there's kind of, and the Times had a story about this is AI VAI. It's like spy v v spy going on in a district in New York right now, Manhattan district The Jerry Nadler district Right. It's a huge issue in Wonda. And I think most voters are probably saying, why, what iss the problem here? What's going on But huge money is going into two the candidates for that reason This episode of Intelligent Machines brought to you by trusted tech. Now you might want an AI to figure out what your Microsoft three hundred and sixty five licensing is. It is t prettyty complicated, but you don't need an AI. you just need trusted tech. If you're managing Microft three hundred sixty five for your company You are responsible for both the cost and whether it's set up correctly Now, here's the bad news, The deadline is rapidly approaching on july first, Microsoft's raising prices. So if there are any mistakes in your licensing, they're about to get a lot more expensive. Most companies using Microsoft three hundred and sixty five, well, there's two categories of mistakes. They're either overlicicensed. paying for unused seats and features And I understand why you do that because what you don't want to be is underlicicensed. creating compliance and security risks. It's actually the case in many companies, it's both One department has too much, one department has too little, the result Wting thousands, sometimes tens of thousands per year on tools your team doesn't use or worse missing critical security features you thought you had. Trusted tech helps businesses understand what they have, what they actually need and how to lock in the right setup now Before costs go up, their team ensures your M three hundred sixty five environment is Well supported and aligned with how your business actually operates. And if you need ongoing help, they offer reactive support for your Microsoft environment through their certified support ist So they do both Microsoft licensing, let's focus on that because july first is just around the corner Microsoft licensing is incredibly complicated, always changing E three versus E five Business premium, there's the add ons, the new E seven It's confusing, easy to miscfigure and overpay, and licensing mistakes Don't just cost money, they create compliance exposure that gets more expensive. weeks So even if you think your licensing is dialed in It's worth the second look. As Kevin T turnurner, former Microsoft CO He was talking to trusted tech. He said this You have an incredible customer reputation. You have to earn that every single day The relentless focus you guys have on taking care of customers gives them value and differentiates you in the marketplace After july first, you're stuck paying more. This is the last chance to fix your licensing before costs go up Trusted Tech is offering a free Microsoft three hundred and sixty five licensing consultation right now. visit trusted teech teeam. slash intelligent three six five and get a clear data back view of your current licenses, what you're wasting and how to lock in your savings before the price increase. Go to trustedtech. te slash intelligent three six five and submit a form to get into contact with detects Microsoft licensing engineers I'd you trust tech for supporting Intelligent machines Uh, Google what what you said two point zero of what I thought Gemini was at three point five. No, there was three point zero. wasas there a new Gemini? today? Alan know on his Google Worspace account. Yeah, ye. There's the problem Um, um Natey Jones had a post about it today Py Jones will be joining us, by the way. I've finally got a hold of him And he's got a very good email address, which my AI had had to fert out And he'll be joining us in a few weeks. I'm excited about that. Next week, we will talk to the author of a brand new book Olivier but here. Livy, I want to say his name right. Syilvin. I hope it's Silvvenin Olivier Silvani is a profess of law and author of Reclaiming the Internet. should be interesting about control and how we can take it back the timing is quite good. He's a professor of laaw at Fordham. and former senior advisor at the FTC He actually, I think was Lena Khan's right hand guy So that should be. And she, of course did take on big tech Google, the reason I ask Google Deep mind is worried about what happens When the agents start talking to one another Multi agent systems They're funding research into the potential dangers of situations where millions of different AI agents interact with each other online The problem is The mass market arrival of agents that can carry out tasks without human oversight and follow instructions given to them by other agents creates a whole new class of risks. Actually we this would be a good time to talk about Bruce Schneyers' peace because Yes, it's a little bit about fable, but it's really more about It's too late, AI reality the new new reality. Yeah He says we have opened AI's Pandoro's box I have a huge respect for Bruce Schneyer, of course shows This is not a paywall. Okay, we'll go away donate to the Guardian there do I give the money. I do. They just don't know it. They forget. They forget. They forget Um Fable is just another incremental improvement in the years long climb of AI capabilities Uh he goes on about harnesses, which I agree with, but I want to The Prog company was able to replicate Anthropics's few verifiable cybersecurity capabilities with a much smaller and cheaper model and a more sophisticated harness. That's the tool you use to run N like Clad code or codex or an agent like opencw or Hermes A He says, one of the strengths of Fable is it requires less expertise to use, d less detailed prompting from the human You can give it a difficult goal and it will figure out novel and unexpected ways to satisfy it. Relentlessly proactive, he quotes, Simon Willison Simon called it U Or another descriptor Bruce says might be creative. This points to a real problem with relentlessly proactive AI in language wants and desires are always unders specified If I ask you to get me some coffee, you'd probably pour me a cup from the coffee pot You wouldn't buy me a pound of raw beans or a coffee plantation, but an AI might not know the difference. It's the old paper cllip Cundrum Human stories are filled with warnings, he writes about unspecified desires, King Midas. For instance W wished everything he touched ret turned to go but forgot to say, but not my food drinking daughter And genenies are notorious for granting your wish in a way you wish he hadn't It's impossible to list all limitations and restrictions, and a creative AI will find the ones you forgot There's no foolproof way to prevent people from using AI models to complete harmful tasks That's an important statement Steve Gibson said this too Good workd press You can't stop it. Can't stop it. Any Anbody can do anything with it and it's a general machine And her notion of AI safety asing is misguided. It's not true He says there's no way to prevent the models from instantly causing harm while completing benign tasks too. AI models are no longer isolated from the real world. They browse the internet and answer emails, they trade stocks, they make purchases, they control physical systems. They are in effect robots that affect life and property. and we have no technical mechanisms to verify the integrity of an AI system. Bruce Schneeer is one of the foremost security experts in the world he says that That's something to worry about He says at best, any ban only serves to delay the problem for a short while. He says, this isn't a US. China problem. this is a species level problem that requires coordinated action at species scale. Unfortunately, we have no mechanism to do that He says, I wrote about this five years ago, but that was too far in the future. Today when it's right in front of us, there's no world government that can impose constraints on the for profit corporations currently controlling AI mod He says and I agree with him, but I don't think it's going to happen. We should have kind of Public Option on AI We should be funding open source harnesses that balance capability and safety to achieve useful goals without so much power. We were talking about that last week, Jeff, the idea of a limited AI instead of an Artificial general intelligence and open source AI models who pursue proidence and biases are public and well underood. Well, and that's and you've had guests on that's that's exactly what we're talking about guests last week is that's open source As Insurgent AI is the real answer to this Yeah And um, There was a wonderful column and pardon me for this deet site about how We've allowed the AI companies to define progress today And if you go back to the Industrial Revolution Progress and progressivism came out of it because there was inequity and we got the eight hour workday, thanks to the printers and hot type We got health and safety and work, we got the welfare state because of what was happening in that Gilded age. And in this gilded age, we have handed over the idea of progress to people like Elon Musk and Amade and Alban And that's screwed up And so the only way to do this, I think, is to take it out of their hands. Well, this is a very complicated, expensive thing to take out of their hands for most of the tasks that you want to do. An open source model, I think will be good enough and they will get better and better represents competition Two of the big guys. Um This is from the information three days before Fabable was banned Open AI preps, new AI model expects to go public with the next year. I don't think we're going to see open AI's new AI model Are we going to see the IPO Man, I don't know 'll be completely unable to launch any new model under this I don't know right now That's risky, donon't you think that Because any new model, you know, the supposedly the open AI model, whatever it is, Chety PD five six has many or all of the same capabilities as fable Would you release something that powerful today? I think that would be risky Unless you knew you had the Trump administration in your pocket this is Benito. I think the power. Isn't this what Anthropic wanted though? they wanted everybody to stop, right Well, no, it was. I don't know if they that was that was what what Calvin Port's point was. that was a nihilistic BS. All they really said is, well, everybody should should slow down, but if they don't, then we should keep up as much as anybody else. It was complete BS Microsoft CEO S such an a deela wrote a piece which I did not read because It's it's very u I just read the headline and I said I'm not reading You ask Jevin, I summarizeed for you. I In an article posted on X on Sunday, Satan Nedlla warned of a future in which a handful of AI providers capture most economic value while industries lose Ownership of their knowledge He's kind of saying the same thing, I think maybe his b. He advocates for a broad AI ecosystem in which companies keep control of their learning systems It doesn't quite say open But he says, the big model makers want to create a world in which Oh no, this is a I'm sorry, this is a Snowflakess CEO iffere different person. Thank you, Business Insider for switching gears ' quoting a bunch of other CEOs now. Um Yeah, I don't know I think you actually asked a really important question, Paris, which is How do we know what the motives of any of these guys are V's very muddy right now What do they want? We don't. and according to if we follow the line of thinking, we you and many other smart people espouse that this is building something as important, if not more important than the advent of the internet I would say that all of the peopleles involves motivations matter quite A lot And their behavior matters and holding them accountable matters I guess my if I were to pick a through mine, I would say Pitics should never le of Technical decisions should never be made for political reasons That's the way to put it. Technical decisions should not be made for political reasons And I feel like this is all a political decision, not a. Well, I'm going to go back to the research I'm doing right now. The entire reason we got the radio networks we did was because the US Navy was scared of the Brits owning patents for radio And so they created RCA It was not the market that did it It was the US. Navy that created RCA and cracked everybody's heads together and said, pool all your patents, damn it And that's how we end up with corporate radio. Before that, radio was the province of amateurs. It was the province of podcasters back in the day. And I'm about say it would have stayed that way because of scale and because of limited spectrum That was the culture of radio in the beginning days There was people playing with it and doing things with it, and then that was shut off. entirely U And I guess Ben Thompson would say, Ohh, no, absolutely, politics should make political decisions because politics is the will of the people. But I don't I just don't think Pitics has the ility to make those technical decisions and often Politics asks technical people to do things that are impossible, for instance. The UK Wh is now saying nobody under sixteen should have social media should have YouTube. or Snapchat or TikTo somethinghing that just is unforceable by a politician who wants to do something popular to your point about smashing AI. Right More to come includting the big spend Elon made with his newfound fortune You watch an intntelligent machines pair S smart No Jarvis Our show today brought to you by XBo XBOW. You know the name. These are the pen testers. These are the guys actuallyually, it's an interesting world we live in. AI has changed the pace of everything from how software develops. to how it gets attacked. Right? Engineering teams are moving faster than ever. They're creating more and more applications The problem is your security teams can't really keep up Pen testing, still one of the most trusted ways to understand real exploitable risk, but in an AI driven world, it can become a bottleneck security teams are forced to choose between slowing down development to stay secure We're moving fast and accepting gaps in coverage well. There's a better way exppo eliminates that trade offff XBOW expxo is an autonomous offensive security platform. It is, this is brilliant, continuous AI driven pen testing mirroring real world attacks. Expo doesn't just scan for vulnerabilities, it discovers, exploits, and validates them So you're only dealing with issues that actually matter And that means dramatically fewer false positives and a clear view into real attack paths. 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That's Epo T we thank you so much Corton Intelligent machines So I have a feeling this was all Elon's plan. You know, last week, he went public and became the first trillionaire and raised a whole bunch of money. A few months ago, they had said, Well, we'd like the option to buy Csor for sixty billion. And if we don't buy you, we'll give you a few billion dollars. But I think Elon was just waiting for the IPO And he's now bought Cursor for sixty billion in X The basic stock So an all stock deal, that's cheap for Elon. Csor An interesting company Um They have their own models, although I I heard that they're based on a Chinese model called Kimi if that's true Maybe some of our audience does A Really it's the harness. is another example of the harness. It'ss it's a coating I don't want to call it an IDE, but it's sort of like it started as an IDE and has evolved considerably And It was really popular for about two weeks, wasn't it? I mean, yes the hot thing. It Well still a lot of people use it for their AI coding So spaceX Besides acquiring it said, they will soon release an AI model on Cursor maybe won't continue to use chimy as Grock buildild AI's coding agent. which it has been jointly training with the Csor team for several months What this tells me is that Elon has no AI strategy. Yeah. Nobody plays with Crock he's rentning out the um data farms that he should be using if his stuff were popular and he has to buy curser. And he has the money to do it It's kind of like open AI buying TNB PB. It's like it was also like W. It was like Microsoft the very end it's saying, we don't have anything. so we're going to use open e. R Meanwhile, XAI is, of course in trouble with its neighbors for using natural gas polluting. Turbines to power its data centers Now the Department of Justice to the NAACP sued Be it's primarily B black neighborhoods that are this is turbines, very noisy right next to a black neighborhood And the Jaare Amy point You cannot sue. They're trying to dismiss the case saying, the company is integral to military operations, including the Iran War. Oh, but the war's over So maybe that doesn't hold anymore I In a filing on Monday, the agency sided with XAI saying attempts to stop them from running the natural gas turbines threaten American National economic and energy security. by seeking to shut off the power supply for artificial intelligence innovation that supports the Department of War's military operations. I'm going to always say Department of War like that, if you don't U Unknown whether the court will foollow that up The NAACP says At a time when the ultra rich seem to be protected and supported by some of our government entities, it's important that polluting industries benefit at the expense of the health of Black communities I guess I kind of agree No, this is this is what Paris was said earlier about D NMbi and data centers. this is kind of the ultimate one. Where whereere we put it next to poor people? We know it's irritating He doesn't have deccent energy so he wass using the gas turbines Um there I've seen I have seen TV reports about this of kids saying, I can't sleep Yeah, they're really loud, I guess And meanwile, by the way Oh, but we don't have wind energy and solar energy because that's all Yeah. can't do that. it might kill some birds. Sorry, Pareis, you were straining I've seen con a constant flood of TikTok and Instagram videos of people just recording what's the sound outside their h since a new data center has been built. And I mean, maybe they're juicing the levels, but it It seems in many cases just like it is impossible to live there. And I guess then impossible to sell your home once a data center has been built nearby, which is really unfortunate for people who had you know, bought a property thinking that it would be able to be sold for a reasonable price at some point. Yeah, and the points you raised earlier, water and electricity are a little more nebulous Noise. is right next to you Noise becomes tangible. can say I know what this noise is from and losing half of the value of your house. I mean, that's a pretty tangantly more than half. Yeah, good point.s to wants to buy that? So you're kind of stuck there too. You can't even leave because you can't sell your house Let me see if I can now Log into TikTok and find a data center You just want an excuse to log into TikTok. Now I have to turn on the sound, right Let me find a let me find let me see. Oh man, this is your whole TikTok feed now H data centers? Well, you got to be. You searched for it could be worse. Let me see. Okay I want data center noise, don't I Here.'ll post That's good one No, it's not. This is the one I'm thinking of It has a Oh sound meter Yeah It's not Is it making that click click or is that your internet connection? You're clearly not. you don't have it open or playing. There e goo's constant.ty Q as pro fifty eight DB. That's pretty annoying Yeah. And is a hard hitched. Yeah. Right outside your house. twenty four seven there's an lification of America going on too. Around me, there are office buildings that are being crumbled into dust And then they build on top of that warehouses And so warehouses and data centers And, you know, Amazon and others It's just this ugly boxing of America. We need Lady Bird Johnon. Sorry, the Zoom Zoom was at It was rightfully canceling out the noise on that clue. That's why you heard it. Noise reduction prevented me from playing the thing. It sounds like. Youan to hear the most annoying sound in the world? It sounds exactly like the most annoying sound in the world AI deep fakes are getting weirder and harder to spot in the midterms from the Wall Street Journal a wave of fake videos and ads Oh, I'm gonna vote for him. firstirst of all He doesn't look like that He's not that buff I've seen pictures Uh, this is Mike Rogers GOP candidate from Michigan. I don't know how he did O orr is the election not happened yet? He's stopping a corvette from hitting a little old lady helping her cross the street, But he also is, he's been lifting Except you don't look like that That's not good When you start to make people look better than they really do Uh, here is u Spencer Pratt as Batman. Well, that worked well. Scor Pratman. Pratman. Yes, he did not get his And he's whining about it Yeah, he's lea I'm leaving California. Nordan check my Dart it TV camera and going home U This is an AI generated deep fake depicting James Tala Rico from Texas reading old tweets support of trans people. Oh dear. they would do that. Yeah. Oh dear Probably, you know I mean, I don't know if he should continue to stand by that, I guess, but maybe that's not so popular Great state But it this goes back to the Sneyer argument We're not going to know and there's no easy way to find out and we're going to have to use human connections to understand what's real and not as best we can Oh, and I didn't mention this, but the other thing that the under sixteen band in the UK will do is keep people under eighteen from using romantic chat pots Oh A So No sex, please. We're British. Yes Um Let see if I can find the Butuds are in particular a newer worry for regulators and the fes feeds that be the began with There was a very funny quote I think it was Kar Starmer Anyway, that's going to happen early next year. saying Australia showed it worked, so we're going to do it too I wonder how they're gonna invest prevent people from using VPNs The Atlantic did an investigation on songs used for music training and apparently we're able to They publish four searchable databases of music that has been used to train AI models There's one database has twelve million tracks, one has nine million. And then there are a couple of hundred thousand songs datab This is like that pirate book database. What was the name of that that everybody was using Tracks include hits from Taylor Swift and Bad Bunny So I think lawsuits will follow. Now, how do they know This was used say publish Did get it to sing a Database. Elbisl M. This is the one that pisses me off I, as you know, since twenty sixteen, have been an avid player Pokemon Go has and my wife, well turns out We've been training military drones all along. Jesus So one of the things you do in Pokemon go is you wander around Uh, and uh you're, you know, capturing Pokemon in a virtual, you know or augmented reality space, you can see the world around you. And when you check in to they have gyms and they have u U stops, Pkey stops And sometimes when you check into a pookey stop it says, Oh, We don't have a good picture this. Would you Would you take your phone and And not just to still, but walk around The thing give us a nice three D image off this. Ah, well, it turns out The Niantic Spacial, which has now been sold to a Saudi back, Saudi Arabia backed video game publisher Scopopelely Even before, Niatic planned to use scans for millions of Pokemon Go players along with data capture by users of the company's scanaverses to train and develop a large geospatial model A three D model of the physical world trained on all those scans that we did Nowast has been a sleeper agent for the Russians when they come whole time ground in their drones. We' one component to help train Nynic Spatial's real world Foundation models, AI systemstems So Acording to the IT teechnology review The images often captured the same location from many different angles under different lighting and weather conditions. Particularly, it turned out a lot of the places you were asked to scan were places they couldn't see from satellites Under bridges You know, or train tracks Yeah Now, an Iatic said such ground scans were an entirely optional feature in games Weere used only traders used them. Yeah a short video of a public location. We've been transparent about the fact the scams would improve our technology platform. What they didn't say is read the fine print, you could say that improvement would go straight to the U.S. government. What they didn't say? Yes, exactly. Who's going to use this Well, they have multiple contracts with the National Geospace Intelligence Agency, various branches of the U.S military, and the Department of Homeland Security. U they have been able The during a conference held in London Troy Smith, Director of Product Management at Nine E Spatial described early testing of the system is leading to a seventy percent reduction in positioning error accccuracy to within one and a half meters in many scenarios For what Battlefield robots and drones Actually, Ukrainians have been using this I it. Isn't this true about everything you do on the internet though? Yeah, it probably is ditor in chief of the website Drone XL Hy Kastalu wrote The training data came from people who thought they were catching Pikachu U a license Most Never read sold up a chain to exit a sovereign wealth fund in a defense prime Consent obtained for a game is not consent for a weapons program. even if the end use turns out to be defensible Okay Direct there isn't direct access to the data Nic Spatial told RS techn, this is an ourS technical article. It has no ongoing access to data from current Pokemungo players because they came license belongs to this Saudi fund. It's in the company Scope lease. it's may twenty twenty five You might want to read the terms just But I'm It's such a fun game, I you know I just won't take any pictures of ceter. Are you both still playing it not M less so but at Lisa very much so. yeah plays every day. She seemed like a sleeper agent to me I think straight out of the. The goovernment thanks her for her service. Yes, stight out of themer. She should be able to get a discount on opening eye if you play that much Pokeon go, right All right, one more break and then we will get our picks of the week. you're watching intntelligent Machines. We're glad you're here If you're turning in late, don't miss the interview at the beginning of the show with Alex Damos his desire to free fable at free fable Bg free lable Our show today brought to you by Monarch. Summer is here. 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Monarch. com use the code I M I have three picks of the week But one of them is already gone, is already dead. I loved the idea. It was called Fable Pool It allowed people to put together Money to get fable to do something really hard Oh, I thought it was something about the algae U you know, unfortunately, I'm not even going to mention. I mean, they have I guess I don't know. they don't have Fable anymore. I guess you could use another other model. In fact, yeah,'ve Switch to Chad GBD five point five. create a arcade demo of asteroids H. programming language, a Pomodoro timer. Act some of this has already been done, but it was much more interesting when it was raising money to do it with Fable, which is hideously expensive 'll I'll leave that one out. This one's more for you, Paris and Jeff Isometric NYC, isometric NYC An AI engineer trarained a model on some isometric images and then made a Sim City version of New York City. This is S City four that you can zoom into It's real There is's the Dakota. That's Dakota right there. And that would be strawberry fields in here U, Now I don't think it has Brooklyn, I'm sorry to say But ricable. It does have Brooklyn. I'm looking at it right now. It does, you're kidding. Yeah just zoom out Oh o my Godd. can you find your house Yeah, I care Can you really I mean, let me see if I see how accurate it is I've seen people's comments on this saying, yeah, that's my that's my apartment building. Oh yeah, that's my house. It's inaccurate though, because there's no scaffolding anywhere Yeah, everything's finished. So my building in Brooklyn my first co op Was the reason there was so much scaffolding in New York is a piece of it fell off. It hit a lawyer in the head and killed her. Oh, dude we all moved in Where can you have you oh my what? haveave you found your place I mean, I've found the walk that I take to get to orrange theory and I'm trying to reverse engineer it from there U I found the windiest corridor in all of Brooklyn, which does seem to be accurately drawn. You know, the logical next step would to be put some Ss in here I think this would be a great S city. The graphics these graphics are from Sim City This is Yeah, yeah. Yeahah Yeah Basically, that's what he did. He trained I trained on a bunch of Sim City and then got the I guess from Google Maps or other maybe No, actually it was open street maps, I thing P It is starting to fallpart when we get Yeah Yeah It's a bit repetitive and inaccurate. But you know And then my last pick, let's go back is actually something very interesting being created by the folks who did a signal U It's not ready for prime time. It is mostly a paper But I love the idea Signal, you know, is an encrypted messaging tool They want to go to the next level and create something called encrypted spaces An open source project where you could basically have a discord or a sllack or even a Google Docs that everybody would be able to use, but with absolute privacy, it relies on a very sophisticated Zero knowledge technique that is fairly new to cryptography. It's a really, really Cool idea And I'll be watching it with interest and let you know if they come up with an application You can run untrusted servers. so you could run it yourself or you could run it, you know, in AWS. using cryptography The application can ensure confidentiality Users verify the servers are acting correctly. And neither users nor developers information to be exposed in any way zero knowledge proofs This is a really good idea Anyway, you could find out more at encrypted spaces Dot Org That's my pick of the week They're smart now All right, I want to show you and you need to turn your sound on. This is a video I received contextless from my dad yesterday. and I'd just like you guys all to watch it Which one Florida man? U Yes, and you're going need to turn the sound on before you play in compos it.. Okay. Okay wait No you just turn the sound. He's dragging somethingide over there. Oh no. It's an It's an alligator. And it's going very fast. two men are running at full speed carrying an alligator down a hill for reasons I was not aware of. I thought at first, oh, they're just trying to get it back water but it looks like no they're just running around with it. No, they are trying to get it back in water, but it does look on first glance like a Flynnstone's version of a lawn Book It looks like the alligators in turn the camera and be like, it's a living. It's not your dad, is it? My dad is in the front. That is your dad? My dad is the front one and Okay you wantan to be' your dad isgg on the guy. Just a little tip, if you're running around with an alligator tied to a rope you probably wantan to be in the back, not the front. Yeah, both Well, no, he's in the front, the farthest away from the alligator. Still I still think you'd be better off. You go. Alligator's just putting up with his mouth is open. He roped it around the mouth. you'd like to see how. So I got this video. I was like, what is going on? Why we a video of you dragging an alligator is it going? He's proud of proud of his work. Iturns out the alligator was found in the neighbor's dog run. They then called animal control, asked them to come and take care of it. They're like, someone might come within the next twenty four hours. but if they don't, give us a call and we'll try to figure it out. And they're like, that doesn't sound good because there's a lot of dogs and children, and it's kind of an open backyard and it's an eight foot alligator So the men of the neighbor, the men of the neighbor included my dad Dad's neighbor's son and my dad's neighbor's son's son. gathered one rope And a large stick and the video, if you scroll down the throat in the feed I've got a video of them trying to rope the alligator Oh that's what I want to know my ask questions of how they Oh, no, no. In't want to last audio on this too honestly. seemeems like there'd be a better way to do this. They Is he doing this with Robert F. Kennedy Junror? It seems like it This is yill. Oh no He got him. He did My dad calling out comments from the back The death roll is okay. My dad is grocked that there's a death roll. There's the death roll. That There it is again. Apparently they were trying to originally get the Alligator's neck. They only got the front. You'd think that wouldn't work, but as the first video showed, it did somehow. And then he' snapping at him With just with a foot away, there's also a child in the back. You can see it's the begin in like a car. This is This is Florida. It's the most Florida thing. And if you go to the final video, you can see Yeah how does it a in the bay And then they're trying to figure out how to get the rope off. the allleigator S shouldn have thought of that And then this the guy speaking in this video is my dad's neighbor's son, who's got the most southern accent I've ever heard in my life. But essentially I guess they got the alligator in the bay. They got the rope off them. They got the rope even. Apparently, I think this is a heartwarming story of humans. Oh here comes a kid. Yeah, no, there's children inide. No There's dog. What's the children inside? You can hear in the first video of them running gigator towards this is it. You can hear a dog barking and a woman screaming, No, no, get away It's real Every aspect of these three videos is on the precipice of disaster. by way Yeah. The deck needs a new coodat of finish. I mean, a lot of things need some finish. It's Florida. It's Florida. to the water very hard to keep it. Oh So you have a lot of picks. Let's do some more. I like all of these. What else? U NickNxt. nYC. NYC is a website put together by Twitter Nser, I'm forgetting the name. Jayen Brunson is my h that essentially has found a way to scrape all the different bootleg and secondary Nick merch and Oh this is not authorized. I mean, I think some of them might be authorized. Like the MTA collabs are authorized The one that says Jelen Brunston is my president, probably not authorized. Please win before I die. It's a lot of really great New York City and Ks merch. There's one that says the Kicks made the finals on the day the Pope declared a holy war on AI Monday, may twenty fifth twenty twenty six. They shall live in infamy I like the little the sweater vest, the Nicks sweater vest that Did you stay up for game four, Paris You stay up for all of them hu? I stay up for all of them. I was there for everyone. You talked lastast week, you talked me into watching I my watch Yeah. the final one No, I watched the night We did the show And uh B byy halftime they were down like twenty five points. They what happens and I left before they I did too. I didn't make I said one where we were all texting and when they came back at the last min. Yes. I was noting was myself. This I went out to the bar. I was text. We were all on our group chat here at home Ielligent machines having a fun time being like, o, they're down. You know, And I stayed at the bar because I was like, well, I'm a fan, I'm gonna be here Good for you. Sad ending. And then I got to see the most incredible been of all time while standing with a bunch of it got so heated in the bar that Im The main room was a projector and it literally, the projector overheated. So everybody from the main room came into the bar where I was at s on bar stool and I saw your pictures That was up. crazy. It was wild. And then I texted the group chat because we'd all been texting a millionaire after they want this was game four ye. Yeah. And Benita was the only one up. But we had a great moment I'mad so mad him myself I am not the kind of guy that goes to a game and then leaves if the teams but I was too I was too it was too hard to watch I mean you would be in your right mind to assume twenty nine points down you're not going to recover guys's also don't believe, I guess in that those their n. You have to wait until there's six minutes left in the fourth. And if they're still down by thirty, then you can tune out. then. Yeah. I mean, what a comeback. I mean I mean They were only down by fifteen going into the fourth and everyone' like, well, they could do it did unbelievable comeback. So congratulations to the N next. My son was also part of the stre street How. There wasn't much brawling happen. Pully. This is also cool. So this is something you saw in exX a guy What is it AI So this is a so if you scroll down slightly, originally it started this guy mounted a tiny microphone in his apartment balcony to listen for any birds passing by and built like a website where all the birds that had been heard recently from his window were. This is something I know actually a couple of my friends have done It's a c idea. You it' very cool. You just have a mic listening and it automatically detects birds. Yeah. And it's actually kind of smart because I first heard about this when a friend ad was having a party in his backyard and pointed it out and me and another friend loaded up a bunch of YouTube videos of like penguins, Arctic birds. We were trying to gum up the data and it didn't take. It somehow knew those were fake birds This guy. took that a step further and then together a e ink display on his website that display on his wall that displays the stuff from the website and he blogged about how he did it. I thought that was a cool thing. because you know if you want to Raspberry pie Oh and using Birdnet, which is u A very cool project to identify birds I might do this. This is really neat. You can get a little cl. That's beautiful. There of birds going on I have a little e ink seven color e ink screen just sitting around with a raspberry pie attached. I might it cost you nothing Yeah And my last thing here, I guess? All I need is some birds. The city or formerly known as the city, now known as the City Reporter U reported that the New York Transit Museum is which is a great museum. Y. A museum about trains that's in an old subway station is doing an ode to the orange seeds which is going to be a museum exhibit about iconic orange ay subway which is how everyone thinks of the subway, which are going to be gone soon. What? Aazing them out What are they replacing them with? A weird trains made in Europe Are they gonna to make the bart mistake? Are they gonna to make the bart mistake and make it fabric I mean, it's not fic. It's just like, it's They're not as cute. There's got a section where like the seats can kind of fold down. so I guess it's good because then you have more room to stand, but the issue is Congest traffic from humans standing in a subway car is kind of like traffic on roads, it will expand to fill any space. give it and it will expand in the most non productive way. like so people get clogged up and a said way c car, it's not because there's a lack of room U usually it's just because like Three people have decided they need to stand in front of the door and nowhere else And there's a bunch of space inside the car. So will men's legs expand unnecessarily Yeah man man spreading. yeah the exhibit features a person with the tattoos of the New York sububise orange seats. I mean it's got to be an attractive tattoo. Well, I guess the that honestly, I feel like it's a popular tattoo. The more common thing is Wait wait, did you say that's a popular tattoo? I feel like I've definitely seen people orange subway seat tattoos. Yeah is Do you know what I'm talking much What are like I think the orange cars are the ones that have those corner seats where there's like two facing one way and then two in another a little. Yes.ight. There's a common New York City debate on what is the best seat. So so there's three against the wall and then there's two coming out of the aisle Which one is your choice, Paris I'm trying to find a photo of it so that I can show the listener so it's not completely. It's the subway takeakes scene. It's the subway takes scene, right Yes, it is. So I just put a in a chat. Mine, honestly, I kind of like the inside seat, M. Oh geez. I would be sitting on next to you, Paris. Why don't you sit Like that one because if I have a long enough Cute then I don't have to move for. That's true. You can stay. I can just sit there and bothered perhaps N up your feet. Not even if it was an empty car. just it feels antisocial. It feels wrong. Yeah What about you, Jeff? Wh I will sit on the two on the outside have long legs I mean, if I'm talking practically, I typically end up doing the one on the outside, but I also get annoyed enough with people asking me to move in. Like I would sit in the one on the outside with my legs facing out. Yes, I do that too. I do that too. Is enough people It feels like whenever I sit down there, everybody asks me to Move because suddenly, I need to go from one side of the car to the other.. I've noticed since I'm still walking with the cane Nobody's offering a seat Really? yeah, Well ad. You should get a baby bump. You're a dump. You're double awward award You're an old man An a Kane. I don't so. So here's the question. So I'm sitting in a seat in the New York City subway and I'm trying to decide Am I the old man who should be sitting in this seat or should I get up and give my seat? even older man. makes you feel younger to get up. I do. I always get up for women Young women, if I saw you Paris, I would get up and offer you my seat The worst thing that for it happens is that I'm on this I'm reading. And my head is down and I'm not looking up at all. And then I look up and I see a pregnant belly in front of me and I didn't offer it. That terrible. That is terrible off and you should Yes, I should. I should indeed. Taram Terrible thing Well, I have I have an opera to go to. Oh do I get no p picks of the week? Do I get no picks? Oh Oh Jeff. All right, all right if you insist, but I miss I will miss the first opening overtures. No, no, we got plenty of time So I didn't know I didn't know about the company Bending sppoons. Did you know? Oh yes, I know about them there I didn't know them they have an IPO I mean. They own all these dead no almost dead brands. AOL, Eventite, Vimeo, Evernote, meetu, Streamyard, hop in, Bak coove. I had no idea. It's like Um deead brands that going to come back to life. So anyway I was interested by that. I're going in public. Yes to go in public U you know, it's an interesting thing. I remember when Evernote got sold them. I think that's probably when I first became aware of them. and I thought, is this good or not They fire a lot of people, but they keep them going, but they keep it going, right Um, Vimeo Yeah, I wasm surprised Bight Cove, I used to be a shareholder Bak Cov. Yeah So there's they raised eleven they have eleven billion dollars valuation raised a big raise last year They may be looking for as much as twenty billion dollars valuation with the IPO five hundred million active users every month. nine million paying customers It's actually a pretty good business. Yeah. It's a better business than anthropic. Or SpaceX So there's that one? Th there then there's Tim Ferris wrote about how AI has killed how to nonfiction, looking at his own sales of his books twenty from twenty twenty two, the next year down five percent, down thirteen percent, down forty six percent. so far this year down fifty seven percent But he hasn't has he written new books or these are the older books? I think that's a factor there, but I think it's just it's just netheless, it's going down like crazy. And what is it? It's podcast. We're killing them. We're killing. Oh, it's AI, of course. Yeah I mean, think about. from being somewhat mean, I do think that the sort of person that is buying or would be the target audience to buy the four hour work week in the year of our Lord twenty twenty six is the sort of person that instead would be like, I'll just ask Chat to hour work week He also wrote the fourour hour Body, which I have no idea what that means A Okay. ye, it feels like other hours of your week, you exist noody bled. Nobody nobody. Nobody. I got nobody So then finally, I want to brag about the review I just got today in Publishers Weekly. For a hot type. already they're reviewing it. Wow. Yeah, Jarvis pen's a colorful and enthralling portrait of good Gilded age industrial ferment, replete with ingenious inventors, wrangling with impatient investors and a rich analysis of humanity's love hate relationship with technological expansion Readers will be wrapped Wow. And you know wow, I agree with that one hundred percent. Yeah. I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I actually think it's your best book. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. I enjoyed having narrative in this one. Yeah, that's what I really liked about it. It's a story. There's a lot of stories that come Yeah, which is. So anyay U I'm going to I'm going to try to go to a bookstore tomorrow and see whether Ey Claude Claude did this at at one bookstore L I go to them and say, listen, if people are local bookstores we support a local bookstore independ If people order from you, can I come and autograph every copy. So if you want an autograph copy, that's how you get one So I don't know if I can talk them into it. I used to just go into bookstores and sign the books. Yeah.. this for fun. Oh look. And then I found in the remainder bin of our local bookstore an autograph copy how have my books. and that was the last time I signed the book. Ladies and gentlemen, that does conclude this edition of intelligent machines, we thank our guests so much. Alex Santos for joining us and encourage you to go to freefable. org to read more He is of course at Carter. Ai next week We're gonna u Change gears just a little bit But I think it's going to be very interesting with Olivier Silvin He's the author of Reclaiming the Internet addvisor to Lena Khan when she was at the FTC He is it's all about taking control back You know, I kind of agree. It's not anti internet. It's just It should be ours You better order a book' like that. Nobody bought it, but yeah the web weave, yeah. Yeah ye If Tim Ferris is right, nobody will buy this one. So of nonfiction is not a happy. to be. Are our books in general doing well Well, you have you have, you know, the, um, k talk stuff, the fantasy romance stuff And not in fiction is selling Is it, but not Danielle Steel kind of stuff? hard sell. Logashment iss really hard. I think people pri. Do you insert a chapter into hot type in which someone hooks up with a monster, Jeff? There you. Yeah, there we go and falls in love There you go. you could kids that. Falls in love with a line of type Paris Martau is at Consumer Reports, still basking in the afterglobe from her incredible story on food safety. indeed T titanium dioxide in your ho hos. No, no, no, not host. Not ho hos. watchatch it. Hosts, mini powder donoughuts. Your mini pder donut, host us. haveave have they said anything? Have they said we're gonna to change our ways There's no comment in the story. Really? From hostess no. No comment. We have nothing to say We just hope nobody reads it Interesting. And you're working arere you already working on the new one? No, you're going to go on a trip. I am actually, but I'm going starting Friday. I'm gonna take a weeks Do you know where you're going Uh Tana Whoa, She's gonna stop down you know go do Glacier National Park. Oh nice. It's very p. hit up some kind of road tripping around the state, a bunch of different little things might go ride some horses near Yellowstone. Oh we want pictures. We want pictures. I will. So you'll fly and then just rent a car and drive, drive, drive Yeah cool. to figure out where I'm going to be one and if I'll be able to do the show for the next. wee but Oh no. Th are for you guys short.. I need to make sure that the places have Innet and I thought that would be a reasonable thing, but apparently a lot of them don't. No, you know what, take you're more than welcome. You should enjoy yourself. I feel b is on. It practically ruined my Hawaii trip that I had to sit down and do a show. this show particularly, but just in general It's nice to have some time off Of course you just had a lot of time off. Yeah, you did. Yeah. From this show, but it did it because I was working you were working in a rel nine PM every day. point. That's a very good point Now take some time. That's fine. stay with us. I want to see if I want to see if I can make it work But if I can't all, don't kill yourself, I guess is. I will Kill yourself for us. we're worth it. Great. Kill yourself for us. Kill yourself. we're. Jeff Javvis, he is a professor of journalistic Innovation at the Craig Nummont Gadate School of Journalism at the City University Yogotk. You only did it once I don't think have to do it tw No know. And he's also, of course at Mclair State And Sony Stonybrook and hot Type is available. If you want to get the what do they call it? engaging story of the of the The machine that almost drove Mark Twain mad. The magnificent machine That gave birth to mass media and drove Mark Rain Man. That's the sameimes. You can get it at Jeffjvvers. com. We do I A every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly, right after the Whiskey segment. So some of our audience at least is slightly inebriated. It's two PM Pacific five PM Eastern twenty one hundred UTC. Watch it in the club. If you're a club member, I hope you are. Support our enterprise here withith your membership at twit. Tv slash cllub Twit, but everybody's invited to join On YouTube, Twitch, X. com, Facebook, LinkedIn, or Kick. You can chat with us at the same time as you are watching. After the fact on demand versions of the show available at the website twit.iM. TV slash I am, I should say twwitot TV slash I am. There's also a YouTube channel dedicated to the video And You can subscribe and your favorite podcast client. I can see Paris is looking for a good review Oh There were so many. hold on. I was reading the YouTube comments. Oh don't read the YouTube comments. those are always. YouTube comments are actually kind of nice. Oh. Mm That's nice Hm. The iss is we have so many versions of this show on Apple Podcast that it takes a minute to find the one that people have commented on This one I went to YouTube and I'm watching security now. so that's not the right show. There we go. there's the right show heckoy eighty five nineteen who on may twentieth said always a good time five stars. Always great to hear how long it takes Leo to get off track with his amazing co hosts, Pars and Jeff. It doesn't take much to derail the show and that's the fun. You never know what'll happen M At a time when Leo was on a kick to shorten his shows, I wish this show would go on forever. Michael FS. Screw the Love the personalities and the takes. Subscriber from the beginning and loving it , thank you Josh Estell, Ltime listener twenty years working at Google. many of these years listening to Twig It's great to keep listening in this AI era. There are so many other reviews that we got throughout May and a couple In June, thank you guys for listening to our show and reviewing You want to review on our show. Leave one and I'll read it out loud. and make a dramatic reading For smart now And if you wanted to do it in an accent, you should specify that in your reiew. Please do. and I'll you know, make it an accent that I can do without it being problematic and I'll do it. Iident I accidentally picked the snooty British lady accent in Gemini and I can't figure out how to change it. I always pick the snooty British lady. I don't want a snooty British anyore. Oh, I don't either It's like Katy Kay is talking to me in the c. I don't know why. I like British accents. I don like all my AI to speak Brit to me All right, thank you everybody. We will see you next time on Intelligent Machines. Bye bye Hey everybody. Leo Deport here and I'm going to bug you one more time to join. if you're not already a member, I want to encourage you to support what we do here at Twit. You know, twenty five percent of our operating costs comes from membership in the club. That's a huge portion and it's growing all the time That means we can do more, we can have more fun. You get a lot of benefits, ad free versions of all the shows, you get access to the Club Twit Discord and special programming. like Keynotes from Apple and Google and Microsoft and others that we don't stream otherwise in public Please join the club. If you haven't done it yet, we'd love to have you. Find out more at twwit.tv slash club Twit and thank you so much. You will be