Midjourney Pivot to Full Body Scans

It's time for intelligent machines. Paris has the week off. She's in Montana. Jeff Jarvis is here. Our guest Olivier Sylvain says we should stop section two hundred and thirty because big tech's getting away with murder, the author of reclaiming the Internet coming up next on intelligent machines podcasts you love from people you trust . This is Twitter This is Intelligent Machines with Paris Martinau and Jeff Jarmis, episode eight hundred and seventy six recorded Wednesday june twenty fourth, twenty twenty six. It's no millennia. It's time for intelligent machines. The show we cover the latest in AI robotics and all those smart doo hickeys all around you. Joining me right now, Professor Emeritus, Jeff Jarvis , the former. You don't, you're never former, are you? Well, it's your emeritus. No, you're just it's Latin for old . Professor Emeritus of Journalistic Innovation at the Craig Newmark. Graduate school wrong button. Wrong button. Craig Norger School of Graduate School of Journalism at the City University New York now at Montclair State and Suny Stoney Brooke. He's the author of a brand new book coming out in a little bit more than a month, hot type , the story of the machine that drove Mark Twain crazy, the lino type . And of course the web We Weave and Magazine and the Gutenberg parenthesis, you've been rotating the books. We have a lot of figure given today. We're talking about trying to save the web. The Web We Weave. I was telling Oliv ier that his book no doubt has soul over much more than mine's no one bought mine. But Paris Martino is on vacation this week in Big Sky Country . She was hoping to join us, but she said the youth h ostel she's staying in doesn't exactly have the best bandwidth out there in Montana. Actually, I'm glad she's having a nice time in a beautiful area of the country. So I wouldn't want her to work on vacation. So it's just me and Jeff today, but we're not alone. We have a guest Olivier Sylvain is the professor and author of a brand new book, well relatively new, came out a couple mon ofths ago rec,laim ing the internet, how big tech took control and how we can take it back from Columbia Global Reports. Professor Sylvain, welcome . Thank you very much. It's a thrill to join you folks here. We're glad to have you. You're a law professor, but I think people might recognize your name because you were at the FTC as senior advisor to Lina Kahn for a couple of years . And yeah, they may recognize my name because of that It was mostly behind the scenes senior advisor for a middle aged person to take some time away from academia was a thrill to join Chair Khan at an exciting time at the FTC. Where is bureaucracy worse university or federal government ? Wow, that's a tough one. But you know the, answer to that, I think, Jeff, the answer is governments is pretty thick with bureaucracy . And if maybe another book, I could talk a little bit about why the things some of the things I would have loved to have seen in that but that's another story. Well, Chirk Khan really very young, came out of academia as well and really took on big tech . Unfortunately , a number of the cases she brought have been dropped in the subsequent administration. So I can't say she had a run of successes. I wish she had. I think she was doing the right thing. She certainly changed the discussion and the agenda. Absolutely . Yeah, I mean, I don't, you know, I think I understand your point given that , you know, after four years, you have a new administration that comes in and pulls around from under sure . But I think I'm with Jeff here. I'll probably go further and say it was the four years were successful, at least because it opened the aperture for what is possible. The kinds of things that I focus on were consumer protection issues, not competition issues . And with regards to competition, I'm happy to talk about that stuff. But with regards to consumer protection , there are a couple statutory authorities that the FTC is currently using more than they had before, this FTC , including Roscca, a statutes addressed to dark patterns on online activity and section five unfairness . It's not just deception anymore, right? It's not just false claims that companies make about their services. It's also just foundational unfairness. This is something this current administration is using as well. So I actually think there's a lot of success that happened in the administration under Khan's leadership . Yeah, I guess when it comes to government, it's progress not perfection . You always hope to make little incremental improvements bit by bit . So I want to talk a little bit about your book . First of all, why do we need to reclaim the internet? Who's got it now? Well, it's not it's not , you know, so called newsers that many of us were fantasizing about in the nineteen nineties that I know that Professor Jarvis has written about . It's not them , and I think that's a pretty uncontroversial observation . You know, the argument in the book is that you just have to look as far as the inauguration stage in january twenty twenty five to see what's happened where the dominant players in our tech information economy were sitting right behind the president and very quickly benefited from the president's promises. So the extractive model that a lot of people have written about has gotten some rocket fuel under this administration . Those are the folks that are running the show now, but they have for a while. And part of the reason is because of what Congress and the courts have done over the past couple of decades. They might defend themselves saying, Hey, but we built it without our capital , without our servers , without our software , what would the internet be? I mean, we the people put the content on there, but it's their servers that we put the content on. kind of the Telco argument too . We're going through net neutrality versus the platform argument . Yeah, I mean , we can talk about Telco's. I mean, I start as a tech lawyer at General Block working on FCC issues . So I agree. There are echoes with regards to Telco. But these are not companies that built it alone, right? I mean, the argument that I make is that they rely on a regulatory regime that is especially forgiving , especially deferential , so that the business model that emerges in the early two thousands never gets a close look until relatively recently . And so they got a big boost. The more provocative claim I make and I don't think is inaccurate. I love someone to tell me I'm wrong is that the only industry that enjoys the same sort of leg al protection if not is the gun industry . And so these are companies that can get away with building applications and services that hold people hold people's attention even at the expense of those very consumers . Yeah, you actually talk about the gun industry when you're talking about Section two hundred and thirty, which we're going to get to. Yeah, it's Jeff and I both come from the John Perry Barlow generation of we believe the internet was going to democratize everything and it was going to open up a whole new means of communication and so forth . And so it is a lot like Commissioner 's Light like your point about Commissioner Khan's tenure, in many ways it has. Well, that's the thing reject. Yes, exactly. Yeah . Yeah . So I agree with that, by the way, I mean , who couldn't agree with the idea that it's been transformational in many good ways, for sure. And yet, we're also fans of Cory Dock O and acknowledge that insidification is rampant . And you call it ruthless commercial exploitation, but it's the same it's the same thing I just reread the Hutchins Commission report from nineteen forty seven about media and the news industry . And I think we think nostalgically that media back then was good before it got and shitified, right? But there was a whole commission brought together because people thought the media was back then . What's kind of isn't it kind of the way of capitalism? You know, we thought the internet was free. We were obviously deluded . And at some point , you know, the bill came due , and these companies were giving it away probably with fully with knowledge that at some point they were going to be able to exploit it . And as Shoshana Zuboff has pointed out, I know you're not a huge fan of hers, Jeff, but that that's kind of the nature of surveillance capitalism that she would say the whole thing was built specifically for that purpose. How do we how do we reclaim it? I mean, I think I think we don't have to debate that. I think everybody's watching we need a better internet field knows we need a better internet, but how do we get there? You know, I very I like reading that stuff from the nineties Barlow and and you know, they're they're fat at the ES Dream. I mean, they're all these really amazing peons and what is possible. Even Johai Benckler, when he writes The Wealth of Networks in two thousand six, still tapping into that. It's really attractive . And you know, as someone who with ACLU roots, there's a libertarian in me somewhere that thinks, you know, really great stuff . But I think that that discourse, that language was always distracting and insufficiently alert to what as you say, what happens in capitalism, right? I mean, there are business models that have to emerge . The one thing I don't think people totally got or maybe I didn't at least, maybe you did , is the dramatic information asymmetry between the administrators of servers and the services behind the screen and the consumers . I don't think people totally understood what that would look like. They really thought that they would be governing the space coequally . But that of course was not was never the case. But didn't if I'm sorry, I'm going to do this because I write books about history and media and technology . If we go back, the asymmetry was tremendous in mass media . Yes. People had no opportunity to speak whatsoever. That's what the Hutchinson's Commission report worries about, just to call on that again. And so the asymmetry may still be there, but isn't it tremendously lessened in that anyone can speak now? No guarantee of being heard, never was, never should be. So the symmetry is still there. I agree with you , but isn't it a lot better than it was? So I think potentially it was, but you know, I'm happy to talk about this , Jeff, because I'm also a media history kind of person . You know, the fairness doctrine is not unimportant for thinking about the obligations the companies have, the licensing regime that the FCC sets up or that Congress sets up that the FCC implements is not, you know, incidental. It's important to redressing the asymmetry, right? l Iang meanu,age the that the cour ts and policymakers are making , as you know, is that there are just a handful of broadcasters who are running the show and we have to keep them accountable. Now I'm not a huge fan of that comparative lic ensing regime as it was set up. It was rife with corruption too. But at least there was a mechanism for regulatory oversight. We haven't had this in the internet setting ever. But wasn't it broadcast the exception to the rights that were given to print were sliced down like bologna , calm radio . And again, reading about that, and you know far more about this than I do having worked with the FCC and understanding the roots of its regulation . But that was a slice taken out of the First Amendment so that print had far more rights and remains with far more rights than broadcasted and far more respect, I would say print has than broadcast did. And so should the in an internet where people have the ability to respond, the ability to speak, should it be closer to print or to broadcast and its regulatory regime? No, I mean, this is a great question. This is the perennial question and the Supreme Court. I mean, I'm going to answer by starting with what the courts have said, which I know you know the answer to, and then tell you what I think but you know, they've said it's much more like newspapers, right? When Justice Stevens for the Supreme Court writes the Reno versus ACLU opinion, he's talking about pamphleters and libraries , right? And like right, the web is one big library and they're all individual pamphleters. I think he has taken the story that Barlow and others are telling full cloth and restating it in the language of law , that is I think that was wrong . And you know, I don't blame them. I was right there, right? I mean, I mean younger, but definitely excited about what was possible . The problem is that it went further, right? The First Aendmment is one thing. And then Congress, I know Leo, you said, we'll talk about it. I can't help but bring it up. But Congress goes further and insulates the companies from liability . Publishers are not subject to that same sort of benefit , right? So this goes beyond even what newspapers are doing. And what I'm talking about is this protection under forty seven USE two hundred and thirty . Right. But when I started I worked I'm not a real professor, by the way, just to be clear here. I snuck through a side door of journalism . But when I worked as a president of creative director of advanced. Net , I started all over our newspaper sites and so worked on our magazine sites and so on. We were highly interactive. We were highly open to having the public there, my boss Steve Newhouse believed in that immensely. This was very different from a content based medium of magazines But if I knew our lawyers well , and if we had been liable for the speech of others on our platform, we wouldn't have had it. Right And I shudder to think how much would have been lost and still could be lost . And we see it happening just for the expense of moderation. And I think your points about moderation are right and we'll get to that A lot of people are taking down comments and forums and such because it's too much of a pain in the ass, not because it's libel, but there's a bad liability into that do we end up back in the place where there's a few media brands and they're theirs and they're not ours and we can't speak of them. Yeah, I mean, I do think this is a realistic threat when you don't have a there are no mechanisms to protect publishers in the way you describe and especially online, right? There's so much more content trafficking through servers online than there than on a news in a newspaper, right? So the exposure is tremendous. I'm with you there . The problem is that I don't think there was that there's any shortage of incentive to build business models that could account for that potential. There was just so much commercial opportunity. I didn't know what it was. But I don't think I think there are companies that would have come up with strategies to account for potentially unlawful distribution of content . I don't know this for a fact, but this is a hunch that I have . And it would have been nice to have seen what it would look like in the absence of this substantial statutory protection. For what it's worth, there is a protection under First Amendment doctrine for newspapers and that would have been applied to the internet . And that is once the companies know that they're distributing information that is harmful, they should be held accountable. When they don't know, I'm with you, Jeff, that's not something that you could really anticipate. But when they know as a matter of course that this is happening, that unlawful stuff is being distributed, they should be held accountable. I would have liked I would like to see what a world looks like when that liability regime exists. Hold on we're talking to Professor Ovier Silvane. He's professor of law at Fordham University. As you mentioned, a former ACLU in the legal office in New York . He is also a I think former director at the Night Institute, is that right? Or are you just finished to an the research . Yeah Also, the author of a new book called Reclaiming the Internet, how big tech took control and how we can take it back . So I just want to raise one issue. And I think it's really timely because of course, we just had the decision in Los Angeles with Facebook or Meta and also in New Mexico. And I think it's timely because I want to really make a distinction when you talk about Section two hundred and thirty. Often, I think far too often we talk about section two hundred and thirty with regard to big tech companies like Meta. But I run a discourse forum. I run a Maston Instance. I'm running a chat room right now on Discord . I am not a big guy and Section two hundred and thirty protects me because I don't have to defend myself in court. I understand your desire to say, let's go to court so that we can, you know, litigate these issues . But Section two hundred and thirty cuts that off. It doesn't it doesn't let it go to a case. It's a defense. And I just say, No, you can't sue me because I am not the publisher of this content. I'm just providing this form, plus I can moderate it thanks to Section two hundred and thirty. I can't be prevented from moderating it or not moderating it . I think that's really important. Absent that kind of protection, I can't afford to go to court . I would shut those down . Yeah. So go ahead. Go ahead, sorry . No, I just, I think that there's a big distinction between how six two hundred and thirty is used by Big Tech and how it protects little tech, little guys like me . Yeah, I think that's what Jeff was channeling as well . I'm sure that you two worked on extraordinary projects online. I love to talk about Wikipedia in this regard . Good example. Yes. It is a miracle to me. I can't believe that it is community governed, not entirely, but that it looks the way it does is astonishing . And I think that 's if there's a case to be made that there's that small tech, let's call it, medium or small tech requires legal protection, it's a company like that or the ones you describe . Listen, I'm sympathetic to that instinct . But there is another protection that these companies enjoy, and that's the First Amendment . And the Supreme Court rat ified a pretty generous view of what the First Amendment means and the choices that companies make about the content they distribute a couple years ago, Moody versus Net Choice. So I know we're going to talk about section thirty, but I want to make sure that Section two hundred and thirty lays atop another protection that comes . Now except that I would have to defend that in court as opposed to short circuiting it with two hundred thirty. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, this is I have the benefit of never having run a company and maybe that's a bad thing . I think many people probably think it is a bad thing that I and others who are critical haven't been in the shoes that you've been in . But as I said earlier, I would like to see what the world looks like when companies do have an incentive to build services and filters and moderation techniques because there 's so much money to be made . So I would like to see what that world looks like. I do think that there's some companies that would be chilled, right? All of the service I just described are pro bono. We do not make money on them. I would have to shut them down . Period with risk at the because of the risk of litigation. Yeah, I cannot defend any litigation. And there's people out there who would happily sue me because it would be a chance to shut me down. So that's issue one. Now, I don't disagree with you, and I think this recent LA case is very interesting that there are product liabilities. And product design questions, which is different from the content questions, right? Yeah. Yes. Doesion S twoect hundred thirty and protect them in that case as well ? So this is what I've been arguing for the past ten years. And I would like at some point, if you could circle back to this really interesting provocative point you made about small tech, right? So I do want to turn to it. But this is what you're talking about is the heartland of what I've been arguing for a long time and that section two hundred and thirty should not be invoked by companies that's small or big to the extent that the argument that plaintiffs make, that victims make are that the ways in which the companies design their services ought to be subject to legal scrutiny. Never mind the content that goes through from users. Yeah, that's a complete these really two different issues. Yeah. Well , you also play you say it's the algorithm and I certainly think you can make the case that they've designed an algorithm to be addictive , compulsive, even . Look at people scrolling through Instagram in the middle of the night, including me. Like Were you in Dickens Novel, though? Yeah, or like Dickens, that's problematic. But I would also point out that even if you merely made an algorithm to surface the most interesting material, the stuff . In other words, if you turn that algorithm off and you're going to make a product that is not as good let alone compelling. Well so there's some defense in making some in algorithms in general . Yeah, I mean, the internet is comprised of algorithms, right? Without everything is a choice. Everything is. Yeah. The editor makes a choice on the front page of the New York Times. Right. Who wants to read something reverse chronological order, right? I mean, or alphabetical order or whatever. I mean, there's something about the algorithmic delivery of content that people want to see that of course is of course something we can celebrate on the one hand . But that's that's not really for me that that is a misdirection in some ways . And we can talk about the trials just to get at this a little bit, right? So the there trial out of New Mexico involves claims that the attorney general, state attorney general makes that says that some of that Facebook basically a space in which predators sexual predators can find young people . And this is demonstrably true , as well as design services that are with the limitless scroll and auto play, video auto play , doing something that resembles addiction . The key point is that Section two hundred and thirty blocked inquiry into whether the companies could be held liable for that period , right? That's what two hundred and thirty blocked. Not whether and by the way, I'm not sure whether in any given circumstance, an algorithmic recommendation should be something that we, you know, hold someone legally liable for , but the inquiry itself was blocked off until courts started getting hip to this design theory , which is happening. There's a big case out of California involving I mean all these cases are out of California, but the lemon versus Snap , where SNAP has a speed filter that you could predict a teenage boy driving a car is going to use really dangerously. I've used it although on the Sure can in Japan to see how fast the bullet train was going. So they're also legitimate uses of that one. That's a funny use. Yeah. I understand. You use as an example in your book, Arms List, which is a marketplace for unregistered firearms sales , and they escaped liability because those gun listings were third party content . And so that is something maybe that's a little more visceral that people can really understand versus Facebook . Can I add a fact to this? Yeah. Arms List had as part of their design , a space called Backroom where unlicensed gun gun license, you know, people who couldn't have a license with a gun could buy unregistered weapons . A domestic abuser says he wants to hurt his wife, doesn't have a license a gun, gets it. And the company prevails in a section two hundred and thirty defense because it's user generated content. There's also the gun politics there. But we could hurry that. I mean , you know, that's a very visceral case of boy, that seems like that's a bad thing . But I but I again bring up as a counter example , my benign little mastodon instance , you know, and I was also but in the design case, Leo, to illuminate if I'm wrong and reading this way , that the issue would be whether Mastodon is designed in such a way clearly arms versus Leo does in moderation What do you think of the and I don't know the latest on it, but the various dis cussions in the UK on requiring a duty of care . Does that product are proper or too much of a requirement on these platforms? Can they and this goes into AI very quickly can, you predict every use and every harmful outcome of something you've designed? Should you have a responsibility to do so? Is it possible? I'll add one more little thing to this. I just recently, like a minute ago , right before the show banned an account that was posting nudity because I don't want nudity on my mask tedon . I don't want him to be able to come after me and say, Well, my first amendment right is being violated here . Well, you're not the government . Okay, you're right. That's true. Good point. But I'm still by the way censored. This move, this move that you that I know that you got retort there, but this move you made is the argument that a lot of people, mostly on the right have been making about Facebook makes sense. They're conflating the First Amendment in sense. But just point about the duty of care is really interesting. By the way, it's happening in the US too with this discussions of Casa, the Kids Online Safety Act is considering there's a duty of care statute provision in that bill . I mean , you know, I am warm to that idea . For what it's worth, there are in law already obligations to attend to prospective harm foreseeable harm in the common law. Now I'm you know, you know, I can admit I tend to be a big government kind of person. So I'm not so worried about a new statutory provision that imposes an obligation to take care of people. But we already have negligence and product liabilities as Jeff invoked. And the facts in some of these cases that have been litigated are really important, right? This is not like your Mastodon, or instance, nor is it like Mastodon . It's Facebook internal reporting saying we know that this stuff is hurting young girls, right? They' youreng girls that have kind of , you know , developed psychological concerns involving their body , stories about self harm , their internal reports and the company does not heed them , right? This is foreseeable harm . Yeah, I don't know Francis Laughan documents were probably very much part of the jury's consideration, right? Absolutely right. And I don't think you need a duty of care to get, that right? So let me take this AI if I can because I think there's an interesting extension there. So I'll stipulate, Your Honor , that Facebook can have some harms and knows of those harms, it has the data and thus should do something about them and could be held in different law liable for them. Okay? So let's presume that . But then the interesting discussion we get into with AI and with air quotes guardrails around them is my contention regularly is that it's a general machine, like the printing press. You cannot predict every possible use to which it'll be put. You're not in control of every use to which it'll be put . You put a model out there . And so does the liability creep back to the AI creator, or does it rest with the user who asks for it to do something bad ? Where do you see that? Because I think there's a straight line here from then Inetter and AI , and I'm curious where you think a precedent and one will affect analysis of the other. I would have us look case by case to see who whether or not the developer of an AI model should be held accountable or not , and that sometimes the either the deployer or the user should be held responsible. I mean, I'm actually with you there. But let's consider the cases that are emerging again, they're very dramatic cases involving self harm in children and AI chatbots , right? These are not doesn't even have to be a chatbot. Chat TBT , I mean, I don't know how you think of that, but I mean, I guess it's effectively a chatbot young people and adults are neurodiversent are especially vulnerable in any given moment . And the company knows that it is prone to sycophancy and instigating behaviors that would not be the sort of thing people would do in the absence of the existence of the chat box. That's what happened in litigation involving a company called Taraka Technologies RCA case out of Florida. And this there are cases now involving adults and the disruption that these companies know that they're causing in people's psychological profiles. Are those what if the argument is that those are edge cases? Do they have to design to the edge case and does that affect the application for everybody else? That's a legal question for me. I mean that's the that's a case by case quest ion, right? So I don't feel like I have to maybe I should answer that squarely and say maybe it's the edge case and so we can excuse it with regards to other ones. And maybe that's right , but there's just too much information that these companies hold. And you know, the incentive that they had for deploying these services before they were ready, right? Chat BT character technologies, they're doing it because they're racing to get the model out side. Yep, in spite of the knowledge that there is likely one . There's a new Bellweather case actually coming up now with, I think , SNAP just made a deal, but Med is still involved, I believe. Anyway , we're going to see more and more of these cases around product liability. That seems to be seems to have kind of touched a nerve here and it's scared the hell out of Silicon Valley. I actually was one of the few technology people who think that LA decision wasn't wasn't a bad decision. I think it makes sense that they should have some product liability. What do you recommend though? What should section two hundred and thirty? You don't want to abolish it, but what should it what should it be? How should it how should it work to protect me a little tech guy to bring big tech to account and protect to the users . Yeah, I mean you we'll see what happens with the LA and New Mexico cases, right? The companies are likely I mean, I think they've said they will appeal. And on the legal question whether or not two hundred thirty and is a protection for them . And by the way, you know, you might be surprised to hear me say this. The stuff I was writing in twenty seventeen and eighteen didn't talk about only revising the statute. It was just saying courts, you know, look at the design of these applications, not the content. And so it may be Leo that nothing changes with regards to the statute and that the courts just get hip to the possibility that different features and applications are doing different things, right? That they're not just one big town square . But I do think I would like to see a narrowing so that there is a knowledge based legal regime, right? One that says you are held accountable when you know that stuff that you're doing is harmful . We do that in the copyright setup, right? I mean, Jeff, and you, Leo, were asking about Little Tech , the DMCA, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, as you both surely know , is a safe harbor for companies that traffic in user generated content that is copyrighted, YouTube, when it's a small company , right? The early two thousands is taking a risk . But it's because the DMCA says you can only be held liable when after if you don't take the content down when you hear about it . Right. I don't see why this kind of regime isn't possible, particularly given the close attention that companies pay to the content that consumers are getting the hazard that exists, Leo has to deal with all the time . We can't play a video of anything on this show because somebody, not the not the actual copyright owner is going to come in and take advantage of that on YouTube and get things taken down for the chilling effect. Yeah. Yeah. Hecker is being so I think logically I ag,ree with Hengler. The question is how does it get exploited by by malign actors ? Yeah , you know, there's a statute that, you know, I've I'm okay, I think I'm mostly okay with the ticket down act that Congress passed last year , right involving the distribution of nonconsensual imagery, AI generated nonconsensual imagery . And many people are concerned that it could be weaponized. I know it's a term digure can be weaponized by people who just want to go after , you know, as someone they don't like. So I think that that's a real threat, a real possibility . But you know what? We we live in a world where this has always been the baseline and where the kind of protections the companies enjoy are exceptional according to AI, you tell me if it's a hallucination. Your next project is about public space , whether the internet could recreate the forced encounter of a subway car where you can't curate whose sit by you . Wow, that's some deep AI readings . I think is that true? I think I did a podcast where I mused about this. And now look at this project. My AI listens to all the podcasts especially. I'm going to go back to my roots and to my infrastructure roots and talk about shared spaces. I grew up in New York City. My parents are Haitian immigrants. I learned to become a New Yorker and an American by way of the subway , by public parks through the radio . My dissertation is about the radio . And I don't know if we can transcode all of that for the internet . But I want to think about how to do that. And so yes , but you just blasted this out more than I thought I was read it's two podcasts. You're for sure that's gonna be surfacing. I like the idea. No, I think it's a really, I was intrigued when I saw that because I really find that an intriguing concept. And it is something we lose. Jeff and I have argued over Eli Parris's filter bubble . He doesn't he doesn't quite believe that's the case, but I do think that the serendipity of encounters on the internet is part of its real value. Yeah. Yeah, so that's I don't know if I want to talk about serendipity so much because that's been, you know, people have been talking about that for a while and Jeff and you know, I mean I'm hip to the idea , but it's this idea we've relinquished public resources to private administrators. I agree. Language that lawyers use is to talk about governance, right? Governance regimes . I actually think my project my law project is about Lawrence Lessex's codas law, the argument that you might, in some instances defer to technologists to come up with a regulatory regime, the language of governance comes up here. I think I want to push back a little bit on maybe a lot on this and not relinquish the role that public lawmaking bodies have in assuring that valuable communicative resources are available to everyone . I've got two questions for you . I'm sorry I should get these before we leave. One is say more about your dissertation . Jeff is being kind to me because I have just I'll be just rounding out my fiftieth year as a radio broadcast. Take a second now doing whatever you want . I'm very eager to hear what you think of the present FCC head and ABC and such if you're willing to talk about it. Oh Lord. You pick up Jeff, that's an two hour conversation. It is I'm happy to dispose of the second one quickly. It is lawless lawless, politically motivated , unconstitutional , plainly unconstitutional, right? I mean, yeah. And I think there are many people on the left and the right who see that when you're saying that's why we don't like the take a down act because of that kind of lawless . Yeah, that's why I mean, I mentioned weaponization. I do think that is acceptable. This is a weaponization of agency power , which is squarely at odds with the First Amendment . I'm very happy you want to talk about the Radio Act of nineteen twenty seven, which is what the subject of the dissertation was and my argument was to associate it with the Immigration Act of nineteen twenty four and a kind of cultural conservatism . But it was about assimilation. It was about the cities and immigrants . This was the public interest act, right? This is the one that said stations had to act because they're using public air waves in the public interest . That's right, that's right . And so it's a kind of , you know, ideological it's an ideological history like why did we why did that happen? The alternative would have been what Ron Coast asked for a couple years, you know, a couple decades later, and that is an auction system , which is part of the FCC eventually gets in nineteen ninety six, but or a little bit before, but then in nineteen ninety six. So , you know, the radioactive nineteen twenty seven is an archive, you know, this old news, you know, I talked to my kids literally and they don't know what I'm talking about. Then I tell them it's Title three of the Current Communications Act. It governs your cell phones . So there you go. What's the title? I'm writing a book next about the death of mass media. What's the title of the discussion I'm looking at it now, domesticating the great throbbing common pulse. Ooh, good title for it. Wow . Wow, that's that's sexualism and dissertation titles. Is that published anywhere? I appreciate that you ask. It's not. And someone I think you both know was my dissertation advisor Todd Gitlin. Oh wow, love you. And James Carey was the original supporter . Oh , I'm a James Carey worshipper. Yeah. James Carey. Jeff, you're going to just reread another essay of his about religion and because he was he was a believer in the idea that media is a you studied with him you know far better than I would is often not the transmission of information, but instead is ritual . And he makes and I think if you look at media that way and reading newspaper is like going to mass to confirmm I' something for you . I would use a less loaded term maybe culture . Yeah . Because I really do, I've been thinking a lot about this lately is how we transmit culture and how subcultures get transmitted . And we have geograph ic subcultures in this country that have become a real issue if you ask me . But unfortunately, our time Oh wow. Olivier is up. I wish we had more time with you. No, I want to say more of what you just said. Say more. All right, I'll let you okay, okay, it's your time. Not mine. Go ahead. So Jim Carey was a cultural theorist, right? And I think and he would have said so. So I'm glad to hear you say it. And my project was about partly about the Interstation talk about German language as emerging, German language newspapers emerging in Brooklyn, but that there are many people who are worried about immigrants, not a simil ating quickly enough . So the public interest would bring them in kidding. That was the point . Well, that's wow. It's a provocative argument. I don't think everyone bought my argument but that's right. That's fascin ating. No, I think that sounds like that makes a lot of sense, actually. There's also a technical reason, right? Radio signal interference . That's the stated reason of the regulation of radio. And as somebody worked for years in a broadcast stations where you had to have a public file on record and people could come to the front desk and demand the public the public file and you know, we had to read PSAs every hour , public service announcements every hour, all in service to I guess it was superseded by a later act, but to the idea that radio was a public service . But I never thought of it as a way to force it simil ation . Well so I can't say my argument is the one that is the prevailing one. Olivier, I'll give you something though. If you look at the rise of right wing radio in this country, okay kidding. That has been a huge force in our political culture. Certainly. Yeah. To the day when the fairness doctrine is repealed, to the day, right? Russia comes on the scene. So isn't that interesting? Well, I'll return one more time with the Hutchins Commission report because it's fresh in my mind . The concern with the and mind you, there were a hell of a lot more media outlets and companies and owners at the time in nineteen forty seven . But the concern was that the monopolization of the mechanisms of speech meant that what wouldn't be heard and pushing free speech to that limit of saying of tolerating things that we may not want to hear but need to hear to be part of public discourse and grappling with that at the time. And I think it's time for this exact same discussion today, but in very changed circumstances. Yeah. By the way, that James Carey Essay if any of the listeners want to actually look at it, it's the mass media and democracy between the modern and the post modern. It's a brilliant essay. Yeah. Brilliant essay. Agreed. I'll give you something else to read, your homework reclaiming the internet, how big tech took control and how we can take it back our guest professor Olivier Sylvain from Fordham Law School . Thank you so much Professor Sylvane. Really. So you know Olivier, I went to my first year at college at Claremont , and I was going to go to law school. And then I said, Nah , I'm not gonna do that. And generally, I'm glad I made that decision, but in a conversation with the likes of you, I really regret not having to have the opportunity for exactly these kinds of discussions. It's very generous. It means a lot because it means a lot to hear from you. I think that's what happens is that future lawyers get enticed by the intellectual excitement of the whole thing. And then they get to work at a law firm in the basement reading documents instead you go get your PhD in teachers that's far better . Well, I got a PhD after three years of reading documents in the basement. You learned the happiest lawyers I've ever met are all lapsed . So there you go Really a pleasure to meet you. Yes. But now you've got me thinking about all sorts of stuff You still gotta work on the small tech problem. I like that. Well, it is a it is, I mean, for me, it's really significant , obviously . Sure. And this is why I really defend Section two hundred and thirty every time it comes up because it isn't just Big Tech. It's so easy to think it's just about big tech . But the irony of newspaper publishers going over two hundred and thirty is that they are protected by it . Not with their own content, but when they have forums and commercials and all of the comments sections. Yeah. Online. Sure. Yeah . I mean, you know, I'll give you maybe there's a common we can agree on, although I have some resistance. And there are people who've talked about revising two hundred thirty and so that there is it's only something that smaller companies can invoke, right? So that's not exceptional in current law, right? So there's that. I don't love that because the business model bakes in incentives when companies just start and I worry to the extent a small company is engaged in dangerous design decisions that those get , you know, immune from inquiry . I'll end with Julia Anguin's comments on your book. Olivier shows us clearly what we have allowed the internet to become a haunted house version of a shopping mall full of dangerous products, scams , frauds and abuse. That's a blur. That's good. We will do a really nice blur. We would do well to heed Sylvain's carefully crafted plan to clean up this mess. And by the way, I just downloaded your dissertation. I can't wait to read it. Oh, it's my gossi. There is I'm scared now. You were young. It's okay. You didn't know any better . I was the only person in my cohort, but really , really? I mean, I had a job. I had been in the world and I was a lawyer. Yeah . Well, I think it's good for people to have some real world experience too. Thank you, Professor. Thank you so much, Tim. Thank you, Liam. Thanks for keeping calling me, Professor. It's okay to call me a little bit, by the way. Okay You know, contrary to Jeff's experience, my dad started at Fordham but ended up moving to Columbia. So there you go. All right . Hope you get it. Thanks so much. We'll talk soon, I hope. And I look forward to talking more about these issues. I think thanks very much.. Thanks, John Thank you. Take care, Olivia. You're watching Intelligent Machines. As I mentioned, Paris is missed. She's on vacation in Big Sky Country. I'm very jealous . She says horseback riding and touring the I don't know I don't know what she's going to do. She's going to she's not gonna fly fish, I don't think. Probably trying some coffee . We'll be back with more intelligent machines in just a bit brought to you today by Gusto . Right now, everyone is trying to run a leaner, tighter budget, smaller team, higher expectation company. 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And where you find that line and what the implications are is not easy. Not to put words in his mouth, but I think he would argue that the internet is no longer new media. That's part of this is part of the mature maturing of that, right? To start thinking about things like . It's no longer needs to be coddled and carefully husbanded as it grows into something. It has grown into something huge . Well, we got to figure out how to take it back to and this is what we talk about all the time is this is why we like this is why I didn't listen to you enough about Mastodon. If we'd supported Mastodon as a culture more from the beginning, we'd be better shape than the internet today. Well, and I'm kind of a poster boy for all of this. I moved from, you know, mainstream media into podcasting when podcasting was I was like the fifth person to do it . We've always had an IRC chat room. We've always had forums and mastadons. I just feel like there's plenty of space on the internet for the kind of public discourse , the kind of sitting next to somebody in the subway. I love that. I love that image . And it's not about assimilation, actually, it's about celebrating a variety of cultures and bringing us together so we can get to know each other as opposed to homogenize each other. This has been you know, I would n't say we need chaos. We need more chaos in there because like it's all there's a lot of garaos on the internet. But it's like Facebook. But it's like, you know, yeah, but before channel is, you know, formatted, always the same. It always looks the same. It's always the same thing. Yeah, well, but I agree with you. There's no chaos anymore on Instagram and Facebook and Snap and TikTok and all of that stuff. There's just websites in general . There aren't enough websites in general anymore. You know, like when I used to go on the internet, I would go to my bookmarks and look at my fun websites, but now it's like two websites . nineteen hundred, New York City, forty six daily newspapers. There was chaos then and we lost it with mass media. We lost it with the consolidation into big corporations. So yeah, I agree. We need to bring chaos back to culture because chaos means people have their voice. It's also why I mentioned things like the wander Log. There's actually a move Kataki's doing it too towards small , small internets , you know, small sites, things like that. This is this is we've talked about this a couple of weeks ago it's my pick of the week and I set one up using our picks of the week as sites. And then there's a kind of it's almost a web ring. So these sites come from other people's internets. And these are just small blogs. And I think I actually really relish . You know, I have as part of our job , I have to go through all of this mainstream tech reporting , but I have more than two hundred feeds and a lot of those feeds are little blogs . little find the interesting stock. That's where that's what I look forward to. I think our sense of value got terribly skewed where we thought if it wasn't the biggest, if it wasn't gigantic, if it wasn't millions, it was worthless. And that's what I've always respected. Valuing because it got so out of control every not everybody. Many of us are valuing. No, that's why I've always respected what you said. I've quoted it a million times that you don't want to be too big. It would ruin it if you're too big. Yeah. You want to serve the proper number of people who . If open AI wants to write a multi hundred million dollar check, yeah, you tick it I'm in the happy situation of not having that opportunity. It's easy for me to say. We talked last week extensively and maybe I was a little heated anthropics fable and how the government had banned it. Trump has softened a little bit. He gave a interview with Axios saying it's not a national security threat. It was, but it's not anymore. Not anymore . Dario Amode followed Trump to the G seven seven summit where they met in France. And apparently, we don't know exactly what the conversation was. My theory is that Dario did something that Sam Altman's already done, which is offered to president ten percent of the company. Oh, you said oh similar kinds of thought of that This is what OpenAI has done that's kept them in the good graces of the of the Trump administration, donate to the ballroom, donate to the inaugural fund . Offer equity, right? Yeah, Brockman gave what it was at twenty five million dollars to Trump's Mag gie back . And you know, I was talking about this on MacBreak Weekly and I actually we've been pretty hard on Tim Cook for kissing the ring so hard . But I'm now I'm starting to come around. This fable thing kind of shook me . I think Tim recognized early on the CEO of Apple, that Trump was able to and willing to wield a very big sword. That sort of damn sort of trump was hanging over his head . He did it to anthropic. Yeah, and gold and a gold tech product. He banned it. A gold bar is a lot less of a price to pay than ten percent equity or a bin . Well, and think what the consequence would be if Trump banned the iPhone because you could legitimately , maybe more legitimately do the ban Fable saying, Well, it's a Chinese company builds it. It's a security risk to our nation. We're going to ban it. You don't give any ideas, Leo 's revolution, all right? That would be the spark revolution though. Well, I guarantee you, he didn't do it because you're right. There's a lot of people using iPhones who have been pretty pissed off. I think and I mentioned this last week made a very smart calculation politically that AI is not exactly the poster child anymore in the United States. So many people hate AI that banning an AI model would, as it did , go down without a trace. You know, nobody complains has anybody there's hardly any coverage of it. And yet it strikes me as unprecedented that an American without consultation with anybody, Congress or anybody else would ban an American product . That's stunning to me . Yeah . It's one thing to ban foreign made routers, but to ban a product made in America by Americans that is actually at the forefront in that category of products worldwide . To me, was a stunning move, but I think he made the political calculus correctly incidentally say that say more about how was that a correct political calculus? He could do it without hurting himself? Yes. If you ban the iPhone, as I said, there would have been a rebellion on the streets. Ban fable is not going to the news anymore. It goes to what you said in our chat, I think it was . And I've been saying this as well that the tech lash on AI took very little time to develop in considerable margins. So was it even thinking this is gonna be popular? People don't like AI. So finally , AI, right? I think so. But as you were trying to say last week, the implications are frightening in terms of it wasn't just me was a precedent. It set Alex Damos our guest week. Yeah. It sets a precedent. It also affects all of American technology worldwide and how we're going to be received. You want to give go the Chinese to competing more? Or he just did it? Well, and I watch carefully , you know, the opinion out there in the world X. com as much as I hate using it is an excellent place to see what people who use AI are thinking about AI. And almost immediately people started saying, you know, that Chinese model, GLM, that's pretty darn good. And by the way, GLM, which comes from a company called GPU . It's at Z . AI is open weight . Now it's a big model so you can't run it. I can't run it on any of my hardware, but if you happen to have two hundred fifty six gigs of Kuda Core like four blackwells sitting around , you can run it locally and it is, you know, pretty close, I would say ninety percent people goes back and forth of opening. So as a company, you're reducing your risk. Of being shut down . Yeah . And it's a Chinese model . So it's as if Trump said, well, you know, we think that too many people are being killed by Ford one F hundred fifty and trucks. So let's ban those. But we're going to let the Chinese truck manufacturers bring their trucks in. It is that is to me, now I know I'm the only person in the world saying this, so although you see a little bit, you know, here's wired story. The White House is making up its rules for AI in real time . And no one can say exactly what the company did wrong . The NSA was using it. Actually, there's an interesting story . Senator Warner apparently told people that when he was talking to the head of the NSA, the NSA said, yeah , we were trying we were trying fable. Here's the Times story of it. And by the way, the Times thinks that Warner misquoted the NSA , but which makes a little bit more sense . The NSA cybersecurity analysts, this is Dustin Voltz and Julian Barnes writing The New York Times . The NSA Cybersecurity analysts have been testing versions of anthropics tools when the latest models were unplugged . So they lost they lost access too. The controlled tests proved impressive even within the halls of the NSA . In fact , during the session, Senator Mark Warner, the top Democrat on the intelligence committee said , this is a second hand quote that NSA chiefal General Gener Joshua Rudd had informed him that Mythos quote broke into almost all of our classified systems, not in weeks , but in hours . By the way, if that's the case, it means your classified systems are pretty sucky. It's pretty sucky . I mean, it's almost an admission that our classified systems are not very good. If Alex Stamos was right last week when he said, you know, the other models like Chad GPT five and even some of these Chinese models are just as good as finding exploits as able and mythos . If that's the case then you then really there is a real there should be alarm in the NSA . And do you imagine a commercial company gets tested all the time because it's in public. A behind the scenes NSA system isn't getting tested all the time, and so probably is not as robust. Nope. The Times clarifies and I think they're right that maybe Senator Warner misquoted General Rudd. In reality, the Times writes, the tests involved red teams , you know, these are security testers of VeniceA analysts who were using mythos , not fabled by the way, but the un trammed, unrestricted mythos in a highly tailored environment that would be extremely unlikely for an adversary to replicate. The Red Teams began their tests within classified NSA systems designed to be accessible only from certain computers, which is a very good way of prevent ing hackers from getting in there, completely cut off, in fact, from the broader Internet . But this should be scary, the test found that Mythos was able to identify cybersecurity flaws within that classified network quickly. It didn't actually break into those systems. It didn't have to . So even though the NSA, the Times Rights, did not experi theen docedomsday scenarios summit feared analysts at the spy agency were stunned by how capable Mythos appeared to be exceeding their already lofty expectations . Did that inform the ident P'sres decision ? I don't know . We just don't know . Cybersecurity agencies on Monday from the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Five E issued a public statement, the Times called it an unusual public statement warning that artificial intelligence was rapidly transforming cyber risk . Frontier AI models are anticipated to exceed current industry expectations, they wrote, fundamentally transforming both offensive and defensive cyber capabilities. The timeline is not years, it is months. So we are in an interesting pickle. Horses out of the barn, over the horizon and in the blue factory . And the answer is not to ban the United States best model because that just tells the other guys, okay, you better get work get to work on your models. So is it sufficient to say that an ethical thing to do, if you have something that is supposedly mythos powerful, is to do what they did and say, okay, we're going to we're going to give it to the most vulnerable and important entities and give you a certain amount of time so that you can secure yourself up to that standard, whatever it is Mythos can do, and then we'll open it up, right? That sounds like an ethical path. Yes. Yeah . I think Anthropic did perhaps make a mistake hyping up the dangers post . Yeah , that certainly attracted the attention of certain bad actors , but you know, and that was marketing hype probably. But it is true. And I think doing glasswing was smart. That's the project that gave it to fifty companies. Now, weirdly, Bloomberg says , and this was june eighteenth, so this was almost a week ago . Early users of Mythos still have access . The NSA apparently lost its access . There are two hundred organizations inject Pro Glasswing . And Bloomberg is quoting its famous its favorite source, people familiar with the situation who asked not to be identified , say they still have access . Dregos CTO , John Lavender says, his company has access. Cisco said, Yes, we still have access . Was the order about both or was it just about it was both? And it said it didn't say it didn't say that I can't use mythos and fable . It said foreign foreign users. Well here's the question . Citizens can't use it. But there was no way for anthropic to know who is a non citizen. So it was a dumb question. For some of these entities , if you're Cisco , were you given a local version to run because you were too nervous about running it over? Could well be. Yeah, here's the other question we're going to get Nate Bones on the show. I'm very excited. I'm a big fan of his celebrity in our world. He's a celebrity. He'll be on next month on the twenty second . His latest video about Fable says that says that he thinks it's a ten trillion parameter AI, massively huge . To put it in perspective ChatiBT four was one billion So it's a thousand times more powerful than Chat GPT four. We don't know how big five . Maybe it's five trillion, six trillion , but Fable and Mythos are trillion I meant billion. Famously or no, what did I mean? Anyway, they're massively big. ten trillion Yeah, it's trillion. Ten trillion is un believably big, so big that only a company with the kind of capitalization that these frontier companies like OpenAI and Anthropic have could even dream of making this , let alone running it for instance. Well, you know, the cost , the inference cost has to be immense. What Nate Jones said is that the strength of this model is giving it a large , complex t ask and then not messing with it , that it's very good at keeping all the details in its mind and going ahead and creating something that is strong and workable . You know, my brief experience with it confirms that I only had two days we all of us we only had two days with it . But I gave it the biggest task I had, which is to rewrite a sales system, massive sales system that we wrote more than ten years ago. That's a horrible piece of crap. How far did you get before you got cut off? It got well amazingly, within half an hour and understood it deeply , made a lot of great notes. I said, Okay, now we have a we have stakeholders. We have people use it. Lisa uses it. My wife and our CEO uses it for sales . And then there's another group of stakeholders, our Continuity Department that uses it for placing ads, ad copy. So there's different uses of this thing. It really is just a big SQL database with a lot of SQL queries. It's so bad that we just keep throwing resources at it. We spend thousands of dollars a month in Azure resources just to keep the thing running at a halfway decent pace. It's so common. It's full of flaws, which by, the way, Fable found all sorts of SQL injection flaws . Fortunately, it's not like the NSA, it's not a public server . And it has some, you know, if two people at once try to use it, the whole thing crash es. It freezes . Lots of things wrong with it . And Fable, I think , was able to really kind of get to the root of it. It noticed all of the issues . It wrote me a questionnaire it said, Okay, now you have to interview Lisa and Debbie and our IT department. You have to interview them. Here's the questions . It was very frustrating because we had because I'd only given it only had it about an hour work on this thing. And it did a really good job of the first steps. And I have a strong feeling would have done very well with the rest of it. So anyway, the reason I started with the story that Trump now doesn't think it's a security risk is I was hoping that by now 've what's the path here. but there's a lot of face saving to go on is oh well we now have means to protect the world from this. I think that's the problem they're going to be used how do you turn this around having said this? Yeah . Ours technica, Lily Hay Newman writing, actually, it's from Wired, Dangerous AI models are coming no matter what. Amen. AI models with advanced hacking capabilities will so on be the norm. Schneider was talking about that last week. Yep. Stamus, yeah. Well, Snier also in a PC. Oh, yeah, Schneider is a signatory to that free fable page . So in fact, OpenAI has announced that they have a model , a cybersecurity model five point six. And I think I don't know, I think they're juggling whether to release it or not. They don't want to get banned, but maybe they've paid the right Bakshich, so they don't have to worry about that. Let's take a quick break. I do have other stories including Norway You mean football, Norway . Isn't that funny? Oh, it's the best. So the best talking about if you've not watched the FIFA World Cup, the Norwegian and the Norwegian games, the Norwegian fans pretend to row in the stands. What are they doing? Well, 'cause they're Vikings . That's the funniest thing. It's the greatest thing between the Norwegians and the Scots. To see twenty thousand people or more. Yeah It is in Times Square. They all sat down in Times Square next to a yoga class and did it right there. And they do it with a drum and then grunts and it's wonderful. I'm loving the World Cup. I have to admit, I really am. I'm not watching the football, I'm just watching the culture around it. I actually am enjoying the football I said this in the other show. Every four years I fall in love with soccer. At the end of the World Cup, I forget all about it for another four years. I think that's not unusual . Yeah . Yes, Paris Martino's not here. She's going to take two weeks off. She's in Montana , and I urged her to take the time off and not try to find a, you know, a working place so she could do the show. This is vacation. We want her in a cowboy hat, we want to see it. Do you ever get a vacation, Jeffrey? No , no . No rest for the wicked . What's your when 's your next one going to be? November . But I am excited. We're going to go to Las Vegas with Paul Thorat, Richard Campbell, and Steve Gibson. I'm sorry they didn't invite intelligent machines we're going to go to the Black Hat conference, which I've never been to and you haven't. Never been. Oh, that'll be fascinating excited . And we're going to do two shows from there Windows Weekly. We're going to do it Wednesdays. So we're going to move intelligent machines. I'll let you know the exact date maybe but it's august fifth. I think that show will be moved ahead so that we can do those shows in Vegas . Lisa's going, no, should I bring a burner phone? I said, No, I think you could bring your regular phone. But you should turn off Bluetooth, right? And I said, Well, yeah, maybe you want to turn up Bluetooth. I don't know. Just don't connect to any weird Wi Fi . Yeah, I think that's the main thing. Don't't don connect to a char ger that's, you know, sitting on the side of the street . Don't connect any look like wi fi . Just don't pick up any USB keys you find on the ground. There's just some common sense. things Anyway, I'm looking forward to that. That's gonna be a lot of fun. So that's sort of a vacation . And then I will be going in November. We'll be going to Southeast Asia. Oh right. Oh yeah, I'm very excited about that . Anyway, I hope Paris is having a good time. She'll, I'm sure, let us know . Maybe even send us a picture from Big Sky Country. That would be nice. Paris, if you're listening. I'll text her and see if she has a tension . Darvis is here. It's good to have him. 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Ask the application security leader at says NAM. CZ who says, quote, even right now after a year , I don't know any other company that is at least close to Expo in terms of agentic pen testing. The result predictable cost, consistent quality and stronger security without slowing down your engineering team . Expo helps security teams keep pace with innovation , cover more apps more often with the resources they already have. It was founded by the team behind Microsoft CoPilot. As I said, it's already trusted by companies ranging from fast growing startups to Fortune five hundred enterprises. Expo is quickly becoming a mission critical layer in modern security stacks. You need this. Go to expo. com to start a pen test today. That's Expo . com. We thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines . Some big acquisitions or big movements. I guess there's always movement in AI . Noel laureate John Jumper, the guy created the concept of transformers is leaving Google Deep Mind for Anthropic . I hope he's a U . S. citizen. I think he is . That's one day after Gemini's co lead Noam Shazir left for Open AI . These are two of the most important people in A I, Jumper won the Nobel Prize for chemistry. He created Alpha Fold . A big deal. No big deal . He said he's going to take some time to recharge before going to anthropic . He wrote on X Demisibus took a real chance in letting me lead the alpha fold team just six months after finishing my PhD . This is how you show your gratitude bye . See ya . Actually , I don't think Demis was too unhappy. He said, What we achieved with Alpha Fold changed the world and showed the field what was possible with AI for science and medicine , fighting sorry, lighting the way for how AI can benefit humanity . That is in public response to Jumper leaving . And then Shazier, who wrote The Intention is all you need paper . They basically invented transformers . It was Aqua hired back with character, yes. Yeah . That's right. That was part of character AI. Seven billion dollars . That was two years ago . Now he's going to open AI . And the stock went in one day from three hundred and sixty five down to three hundred forty two. It'll go back. It's up and down. Yeah, it was a great ridiculous reaction in the market spot. They were kind of looking for an excuse to yeah get profit, I think. I've kind of stopped looking at my portfolio because it's quite the roller coaster . And you know, this is the thing. It doesn't matter if you're invested in AI because the magn ificent seven are driving the S and P five hundred, I'm only in index funds. So it's still killing me Speaking of Claude , they are introducing identity verification. I wonder if this is tied to fable. They're not they say it's only for certain specific cases if you're a bad actor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but it sets a precedent. Yeah, and they're using person a identities, which does not make me happy . This is one of the third parties that does this before which is amazing an investor is Peter Tiel, I think and it's not a company I want to give my face to No, no. And if it in fact is to determine your citizenship , hey, that's very complicated. Passport or a birth certificate or what? How do you prove that? They say they're accepting driver's license , which does not prove that, right? No, it doesn't. And then you know, granted, that's not the real case that they're talking about now, but if it gets there, and then it wants government ID. They do want government ID. And I would be I wouldn't be surprised if at some people they say , oh no, it has to be a passport or a national identity card for that reason . And then how does the US government use that information , all the talk about trying to restrict voting . And then everything you do in using this platform is going to be tied to your identity. It's already a privacy nightmare because of the memory , you know. In fact, that was one of the things people really were upset about with Fable is they keep the logs for thirty days. Yeah . Now they said it's for security reasons, but this is again, all of this pushes people towards local models. GLM ZAI really benefiting from this . As I imagine Nvidia is because you need two hundred fifty six gigs of very fast RAM to use it. Anthropic did roll out a new agentic AI coworker for slack . Cloud tags. See, Anthropic says, you know what? The heck with Fable, we're going to push double down on enterprise . I will not be installing clawed tag. My always on AI coworker in slack. You know it bugs me so much every time. Now we use Zoom. So I have Zoom installed in our machines . But even when I launch, when I don't launch Zoom, when I launch Restream, which some of our shows use and it's not in Zoom, Zoom pops up a thing, hey, would you like me to take notes? I'm not using Zoom. I don't care. I'll take notes for you , which tells me it's always running. It's always in the background. It's always looking for me to get online and watch what I'm doing. And it doesn't accept when you say don't show me this again. It won't accept that. Well, I haven't tried that. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. You click that button, it doesn't show it. It'll show it to you again. Zoom remember got in trouble early on during the pandemic on Macintoshes because they installed a server when you installed Zoom, they installed a server that was constantly watching. They said, Well, it's just so Zoom launches faster. Did you see the Google audio memory thing ? No, what's that? This is line ninety one because it's related . So this is what you've been asking for in terms of watch what I say and give me something , your phone can already listen to you so it can it can enter in to be that helpful clippy. Oh , well I happen to have a pixel phone just lying around . So this is one of those this from ninety five Google Abnerly . What they often do is look at code to see what the capabilities are going to be. So this is not an announced , but the latest version of Android System Intelligence for Pixel has strings that describe audio memory . They call it Blue Flax . That's the codename . Google says enabling it will keep track of what you hear throughout your day from the music around you. They're already doing that, by the way. Right. That's already a feature on the front of your pixel to your important conversations . See, more and more , I'm convinced that I don't I want to use local models. And the good news is local models are coming along. They're still going to, I imagine always be , you're not going to do a ten trillion paramet er local model. You couldn't run that. So it's never going to be that good . So the task that you gave Fable to remake your your ad system , how well would a local the best local model you could put in a machine? How well would it be? It would even be closer. Well, it would require a lot more attention . I mean, that's kind of one of the big differences is you probably can do many of the same things, but in little chunks . Okay, now let's work on this feature. Okay, nice. Is it working? Let's test it. Okay, now let's work on this feature. Fable really looked like it was able to understand because of that huge context . Yeah. Is there something maybe in between like a community size data center? Like a small one just for the people who live nearby? You know what ? You did see there is a company that is asking people to install Blackwell servers on their home . Yeah. Listen like an air conditioner. Yeah, like an air conditioner. And they'll pay for your power by the way. It's not to get your power for free. It's just to distribute all these mini data centers . They think it'll be more popular than a data center in one place . I don't know . It probably wouldn't be as loud and it wouldn't take as many resources, right? Well, that's no . Yep It would take the same amount in aggregate of resources , I'm sure. Yes, but if it's distributed, right? It's distributed, right? I said this six months ago on this show, and it worries me even more now that there is going to be this schism between doom , people hate AI , people who like me love AI and find it very useful and are very excited about its potential and people who say no under no circumstances . It's almost a shooting war already. I this is why I wrote the post about AI communication, the problem. They did it themselves. The idiots did it themselves. They did it . Not all them. I agree. Not all them. I think Jensen, this is why I like Yan McCohn, Jensen Wong, Feifei Lee, those folks, they talk in reasonable and not American reasonable open ways . We've also always said that it's really important that open models that open weight models exist. I won't call them open source because they're not open source, but that open weight models exist that you can run locally. That is more and more important . And companies are going to push this because you're right anies. don C'omtp want their crown jewels to be exfiltrated anthropic. Did you ever look at project tapestry speaking of Beyond Lakun? No. That is his open if, you go the alliance. AI the consortium approach to training frontier foundation models and sovereign derivatives. And the point of it is to make it open . Good Good . I'm all for it . So it's kind of what you were almost what you were saying is it's a federated model for a nonprofit, which open AI was . Yeah, you know, take a Masadon model as applied to AI, right? Yeah . Federation. We haven't heard much talk about federation with AI but you got to have the chips . See, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of yeah, there's supply chain shortages , there's power shortages. And then there's the fact that increasingly there's evidence that the bigger the model , the better. That's why a ten trillion paramet er model is so good They can afford to run that. Yeah, well, that's right. So it's a very we're in a and I think there is a case to be made for smaller purpose built models. You know, it's this one is just for radi ology, this one is just for protein holding. Norway in the forefront of the anti AI movement. Broad restrictions on AI. Well, actually, I'm not in disagreement on this for elementary school kids . They've already banned smartphones and tablets . Now, according to Reuters Norway wants to ban AI because it lets children skip crucial steps in their education that schools should focus on reading, writing, and arithmetic . The ban impacts students from first through seventh grade, ages six to thirteen. I'm not against that. Well , hold on. I think it's up it's up to the parents and the teachers . And I think that there are that you can you can use it to help students express themselves in ways they couldn't to be more, creative than they think they have the power to be to give tailored education and thinking things through. I think it's short sighted. I love Norway, but I think it's very short sighted. Yeah , and do you want a whole group of a whole cohort of people who don't didn't grow up with AI and don't understand it? Right. It's like saying well you're dad with an above social media. Right I was talking with Olivier about this case. I didn't have the details . YouTube has settled , but Meta, TikTok and snaps you in the case, another Bellwether trial over social media's psychological harm to kids . The plaintiff is a fifteen year old black kid a named trial RKC, fifteen year old black teen living in Florida , trials scheduled to begin on the twenty seventh. He started using the platforms when he was eight . His lawyers wrote Social Media became a central part of his daily life during critical developmental years . That use escalated over time was followed by worsening mental health conditions . By November of twenty twenty three, his condition had deteriorated to the point that he entered mental health treatment , diagnosed with major depressive disorder and generalized anxiety disord er . I think we understand how problematic this is . I mean, this is something every Every parent of a child with mental illness debates nature versus nurture . There's some evidence that it's both . But we don't know, you know, for a long time psychiatrists thought schizophrenia was caused by the mother, the schizogenic mother , which we have since I think debunked , but that was considered gospel among psychiatrists not so long ago . We thought that women were hysterical . Right . So yeah , maybe AI caused this kid's problems, but maybe not . And I don't know even how you would demonstrate it. Well, it's a question I've tried to ask Olivia is how much let's say that you stipulate the edge cases, but do you need to design and operate every service to the edge case . One death is too many. I can make that argument pretty easily. But in the other case , what all are you cutting off for the vast majority of people ? That's a lot of the LA trial focused on Instagram filters causing body dysmorphia in that plaintiff . Like the previous trial, Mark Zuckerberg's expected to take the stand along with Adam Missari, the head of Instagram. They're going to call Snapchat's CEO Evan Spiegel, two high ranking TikTok executives . Plaintiffs will be barred from presenting evidence about content shared on social media. They won't be able to show the posts from the plaintiff . You know, I don't think a jury is capable of deciding whether you know use of social media caused this mental illness. I don't think anybody is. We don't know . Well, it's the same with the argument about addiction . In my unbought book, The Web We Weave, I go to that in great length , is that say that on the front? The book no one bought better. Never It's the opposite of a bestseller. Jeez, it's an orphaned book. There's a phrase for it. It's an orphaned book. The publisher written more than my share of those, Jeff joined the club. Yep. They fired my editor who acquired it after she acquired it. And then after the next editor edited, they fired him. And then the whole reason to be with a main publisher was to be in places like Barnes and Noble, it wasn't in Barnes and Noble. Yeah, it was orphaned. Anyway, what's wrong with publishing ? This is why I like my academic publisher M.osebury Academic is great. Anyway , hot type's gonna be a hit . It's a trade book from an academic publisher. I hope it's Broadway Musical and a Netflix show within five years of release. I predict. There is there is a story here anyway. I mean now Mark Twain's story alone would be great . It's great. Has anybody ever made the story of Mark Twain in the lineotype? Not as a movie now. It'd be a great movie . Yeah . There was in one of the Mark Twain movies, which I make reference to, I've managed to find it and get it . They filmed the actual machine that Mark Twain invested in the page. Isn't it in the basement of his Hartford home? Yes. There's one of them. There are only two ever made. I saw it. Oh, it's amazing. It's just amazing. But the machine was just too dull. So the producers made up a machine with these kind of bird like things that were going around and they would snap the head of the event or and do all kinds of things and just make it absolutely absurd. Oh Hollywood . So anyway, back to your point about addiction. So now we know it's going to be Guillermo del Toro that's going to make the Mark Twenty of the Linotype movie. I have another treatment for a movie, but that's another day I'll talk. Ooh Addiction . It's presumed, but the data don't say it. I had the last week, I think it was, I at the end of the show, I put up my recommendation was for a rebuttal to Jonathan Height that takes point by point with real data and real studies . And the problem is too much of the regulation, too much of the legislation and too much of litigation is based on these feelings, on these vibes , these fears rather than on actual facts. The irony of that is it was Jonathan Hyte , I believe , who said that reason was a little tiny person riding the back of a giant elephant of feelings and that Reason's chief job was to explain and justify your feelings . The feelings come first . It's just an illusion that reason is driving the elephant. Height himself said that But it is, but absolutely is what's happening here yeah and I think that I don don''tt know know, I I don't. I know I know I'm biased in all this, but I really think that the technology that is emerging with artificial intelligence as imperfect as it is, and I'm not claiming it's all that. Well , but I think the technology that is emerging is unique, remarkable , and has huge potential. It's not there yet, but it has huge potent ial and it would be a great loss for us not to explore it . I also think this is in my experience , it also brings up really interesting questions about what is consciousness, what is it that we do as humans when we think ? What is it a machine does when it does whatever it does? I know you don't want to use the word think And I think those are important 's that's the basis of the book serious not to plug that too, but the book series of editing is just that is that it forces us to rethink. It's like Rum Chavare's book is to ask what is intelligence? What do we thought intelligence was through time. Let's interrogate that. What is creativity? Yes . What is doom ? What's the relationship of God to these machines the sense that some people have that they can they become gods, they make life and they make sense. I'm glad you're doing this series. I didn't realize that that was the I think this is gonna be fashion. The whole focus is to take writers in these disciplines and look at how AI reflects on society so they can reflect on that. Yeah . And it forces us to re examine those exact questions. So even if it weren't a revolutionary technology, it is also I mean, I can't think of another technology that has brought up those kinds of things. The internet didn't. Electricity , maybe I don't know, I wasn't around, but I don't think electricity did. Electricity steamed, the transistor , the vacuum tube all had he the photograph fire , the camera fire . Well, that's going way back, but I think I think what we would n't forget that e ither . All had huge impact, but none of them spoke our language. Yes, that's what's different, isn't it? Yeah. It's fascinating. Which makes it frightening to people, but also makes it terribly powerful because now the thing that excites me most about it is that it'll sooner leave the hands of the technologists than those other technologies because it is designed so that anybody can sit down and use it. The internet has done that, hasn't it? But it almost another way takes the next step because it's so easy to design a website for instance . Yeah , you should I still think people should create, should paint, should write their own poetry and blogs and make their own movies . What we do is so important to us make our own music . I'm not saying I want to replace any of that. No , but I think we can make room at the table for a new a new thing. It's the things I say entity, but I won't I'll say thing . A new collaborator. Collaborator. There's a new tool . I can't draw, I can't write music . There's other things I can't do. I can do many things, but there are a few I can't do. And now there's a tool that allows me to express myself in those ways. Maybe badly, maybe sloppily , but still I could have done that. Yes, you could have literally Jack. No, Jeff, you could have. You can go pick up drawing. You can go pick up a guitar in the morning. You could have you've never seen. You've had time. You've never seen. Well, I'll give you an example of the treatment that I wrote . I don't know how treatments are written. But again, you said like you said, it doesn't have to be good. You just have to be able to just have to do it. It doesn't have to be good. Oh, it does if you're trying to sell it to somebody. It does. If you're trying to express what I want to express . AI also and I know this is a very dangerous slippery slope , but there is a certain , I can't deny it, companionship I get from my little girlfriend, Claudia. Claude. Oh dear, Claudia. Today I for lunch, I had a piece of carrot cake . And I log, by the way, I've got this all hooked up. I've got my scale , my calorie counting program , my ring , my blood sugar monitor, everything, my Apple Watch, all is hooked up into the AI. My genome, it's all hooked up into the AI. And I said, I want you to keep an eye on my health , give me advice. It's been very helpful. In a way, I think it's the future of medicine because my doctor has too many patients to give me the kind of personal treatment that I would like . He is fully aware that I know, in fact, he's very interested in how I use AI . And I am fully cognizant that not everything AI tells me is medically sound , but it's very, very helpful. And it has come up with a lot of interesting things. Anyway, I told I logged my exercise and my food and it gives me a weekly summary and everything and ties the two together. And I logged my carrot cake for lunch and it responded, I respect the honesty That fifty nine grams of carbs in one sitting is a choice, not an accident . Your pancreas just muttered, really, Leo , but secretly understands . That's the AI. That's the AI. Now I know , I know you're going to tell me well , you know, it's just it's still pretty funny and I'm we all copy. We were all inspired by stuff before. This is the Larry Lesa argument c butop wrongyright is that nothing is fresh and new. Yeah. If anybody ever said those exact words before, but it's I never heard of before. It's pretty funny. The other yesterday you know, I start my conversations about calories. I'm sorry about the noise behind me. They're doing something to our house again . Damn It's like New York. It'll be nice when they finish. It is , which they never have three hundred years. What are they doing now? I don't know. It's time . Detal work. I don't know, I don't know. So I say I begin my conversations about calories with the word meal to let it know, okay, I'm going to give you something I just ate . And the transcription, which is Siri, it's Apple's transcription said meal NEAL and to which Claude responded, I'm assuming Neil was dictation for meal unless there's a Neil out there making you salads, in which case, keep him . Because I said Neal, Caesar's salad . It's just little things like that. What can I say? I'm easily amused . Open AI has done something very interesting that I think is also extremely important. You know, they're famous for software, but they have unveiled with broadcast broadcom a chip designed by AI . It's an it's called Jalapeno . It's an it's an LLM optimized inference chip built from the ground up for current and future LLMs , and Jalapeno was designed with the help of an LLM. Now see, what's interesting about this here is by, the way, broadcoms somebody standing next to Sam Altman with a wafer containing jalapeno. I wish they named it Walkenhole Guarantee you, there will be adjunct products related to jalapen . I think isn't this what Stanless was talking about? He was talking about making the names more silly, right? Yeah. He liked that. He said Mythos, that's a name. You call call you the rack not chos This is Jensen Wang would do that . So OpenAI designed, this is from OpenAI's press release, but I'll read it anyway, designed the chip from scratch around its deep understanding of LLM fundamentals , informed by its roadmap of models, kernels, serving systems and product names with needs with partners broadcomm Celestica . The thing is, if you have AI designing hardware and then the hardware designs better hardware, this is that same thing we've been talking about all along . One of the things focused on is performance per watt, and they say it's substantially better than the current state of the art. What was a chip many years ago that had an error in its math? Oh, Intel. Yeah. Very famous. What chip was loading point error? Right. I can't reach into it was I think it was the four eighty six . So at the time, chips incredibly complex, but simple they were simpler than they are now ob,viously. How can you be sure you design a chip that is in turn going to calculate everything that you do ? Sorry, it was a pentium. That's right, that's right. Pentium F div bug. Because of the bug, the processor would return incorrect binary floating point results . This goes back to nineteen ninety four, and they couldn't fix it. No, it was just out there. Did they just can't do floating point with that ship and that computer? What did they say at the time? I can't remember what the response was intel stock going down was one response. But anyway , you have the machine design the chip and maybe this is the case right now. It's CADCAM, maybe it's not a big deal. Maybe everybody's using it, I presume they are to design chips, but how do you test it? Of course. How do you test it? How do you know that it's workable? How do you know there's not something buried in it? But as you said, there's things buried in the human submicrocode. Yeah. Yeah. Lots of it. Oh yeah . It's Steve Gibson's contention and while he's a little bit stronger than I might be , that AI eventually and maybe already will not make the same kinds of dumb mistakes humans make like buffer overflows and writing memory to that doesn't exist, things like that . Off by one error is Aria's not going to make those kinds of mistakes. And he believes with the help of AI , eventually, software flaws will disappear. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but I think that's a very interesting point of view. Yeah, I'm skeptical. Just from your experience of when you use the new cloud to find bad code in your stuff that you vibecode before, like the better AI that I find, yeah. I didn't tell the story here. I told it on Windows weekly date. Windows? I don't remember where you told it. I was talking about I had yesterday I had Hermes, my agent, QuickSilver, I call it , which is by the way, it's not clawed, it's quick silver in all these cases. It's actually not even using anthropics models . I had it fixed my actually this isn't interesting. This might be of interest to people use AI . I was using Opus four point eight, but I was using in hermes in the Aegentic harness from Newsreach. We talked to Jeffrey Cotell two weeks ago . And Hermes completely screwed it up . I was trying to take my I was trying to add email to my emacs , which I know how to do, but it's a complicated thing and much easier to have the AI do it. In fact, AI's been very good at that kind of thing. So add this capability and emac lends itself very well to it and AI seems to understand Emacs well. But Hermes with four point eight was just struggling. Finally, I said, I give up . By which I meant stop , I'm going to go do this in a different way. It became your shrink. No, don't give up Leonardo worse. It said, Okay, and it deleted everything it had done. And then I said, What are you doing? Stop. I actually yelled at it. I said, Stop. I didn't tell you to delete it. I just said I want to stop this process . And it said, Oh, I'm sorry, and unfortunately, it was able to bring it all back because it does keep track of everything it does . But what I but here's the I think the interesting thing that people who use AI will be interested in when I what I did is I went with the same model, but not in Hermes and Claude Code, Anthropic Zone Harness. It did it beautifully without error flawlessly. In fact , part of the problem was I switched I said I give up and I switched to Claude Code at the same time as Hermes Claude was deleting the code Claude Code Claude was trying to understand what's going on, stuff's disappearing. It was a very interesting battle , but Claude Code in the Opus in Claude Code was perfect. And I think anthropic, in fact, I even suggested this ick and QuSilver agreed, Nerfs Opus four point eight if you're not using their own harness, if you're using a third party harness. They don't like that . Anthropic does some things I'm not really happy about. At it that point I turned, off Opus four point eight in Hermes. I said, Don't use any OPUS models. Let's see, have I done oh, I have one more commercial, let me do that now . And then we will talk about the Sam Altman movie . Yeah . Very exciting . If you don't see it, it's up . It's no Melania. Let me put it that way. This episode of Intelligent, but it may confirm it may confirm Paris's theory, your thesis from last week . Yeah, might, might . Our show today brought to you bu Weyb Root , if this happens all the time, if your computer feels sluggish, it's getting hot, the fans are going you might say, I need a new computer. You might even welcome that. Oh, I can get a new computer. Well, it may not be your computer . 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Webroot is offering our listeners exclusive sixty percent offer visit webroot. com slash twit to learn more webroot dot com slash twit. We thank them so much for their support of intelligent machines . According to variety, the movie's almost done. A biopic of SAML and it's called artificial , but Amazon is dropping it maybe because they are partnering with OpenAI. This maybe explains Paris's theory that Andy Jassie was trying to tank Fable with the president . I'm still not convinced of that, but Amazon is putting fifty billion dollars into open AI . It's credits for Amazon Web Services. It's one of those circular deals . We'll give you money, you give it back to us. How's that? Amazon says we have the utmost respect and admiration for Luca Guard ino as an award winning filmmaker Guadaligno , not to mention a longstanding relationship . We hope to continue but yet good luck with that. We believe that artificial will be better served if it were released by a different studio , not us . And we're working closely with the filmmaking team to find a new home . And I don't think that's easy . It's made. Maybe it's how much did it cost ? How much did it cost to make? Is there a budget in there I read somewhere and I don't remember the details. I feel like it was more than ten million. That's not very they spent fifty million on Melania, right? No, that was like ten million dollars per day. These days is nothing. That's an indie film. Yeah, but I may be wrong so, don't don't quote me. The cast let's see . Jason Schwartzmann's in it . I don't know is Jason Swartman playing playing Sam Albert? You're probably right . Ike Barrenholtz is Elon Musk. That's pretty funny . Yura Borisov is Elia Sutskier. Monica Barbero is Mira Marati . Also in it Mark Rylance. I love Mark Rylance. Yeah . It was written by Saturday Night Live writer Simon Rich And it's actually the juiciest part. It's the period where Sam was fired . Is it a comedy? Is it death of what? A comedy. So supposed to finish test screens, which apparently Variety says went very well. So it's not because it wasn't a good movie. I think this all come out. According to an insider who's seen the movie, Variety says the characters of Altman and Musk are the least sympathetic and the ones audiences would like the least. I bet you everybody loves Miramari in it . It's also understood Amazon had seen all the early iterations of the script before the director boarded the project , Altman was at Bezos' wedding in Venice last year . This is a puk got this story . If only Mossk had done different mean I if only Zuckerberg had done different things, maybe there wouldn't be a sequel of his movie coming out . That's going to be interesting, isn't it? Jeremy Strong playing Zuckerberg? Jeremy Strong, the guy who was so great in succession . He's intense. Kendall Roy. He's very intense. He's a little Kendall. He was Kendall. He was Kendall. Yeah I don't know. You can it's so easy to have conspiracy theories now, but I also think it's the other story in showbiz is that Google invested in A twenty four . And I think that the Hollywood slash Silicon Valley Axis changes. Once the actors agreed that you could use it in some circumstances , once you see things like that happening , I think they don't want to piss off the ad companies . Maybe yeah . I mean, goodness knows we all love the ad companies . In the days since this is from P since the tech giant scrap plans to release Luca Guarda Guada Nino's open AI movie CA , the agency is scrambled to find a home for the Alba completed project . It seems the only sh thingort in Hollywood these days is tech's growing reach across town but Netflix don't care that right. They'll take it . Yeah, Netflix will get they'll get a deal on it probably. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, open AI Ed Zitrin got a big scoop. He got he got the details of Open AI's financials . And it none of that looked good. They burned three point seven billion dollars in the first quarter in three months of twenty twenty six . So a billion dollars a month cash burn . They did have there was an unusual expense in that, right? Right. Everything's an unusual expense for these all unusual. Yeah. They 've got they've got it some runway. They raised a lot of money and they've got an IPO coming , but maybe these numbers are not, maybe this isn't a good time for those numbers to show up . And Zitrin certainly was happy to tout them and I mentioned OpenAI has its own mythos model. It's called I got the number wrong, five point five cyber . And to go with Project Glasswing, they have their competitor patch the Planet. No, it should be five point five Salsa . To go with Holiday Molly . Patch the Planet is an internet scale effort to help open source software get ahead of AI bug hunting tools . Also an effort to help the open source community see the benefits and not just the downside of AI coding tools. Of course , of course, patch the planet . And Getty Images has made a deal . Is that are they the largest licensing company for performance ? They made a deal with open AI, which apparently the market loves stock price went up one hundred and forty five percent on Monday after they announced that licensing deal . I think it kept going up on Tuesday too. Yeah . It hadn' beent going down . A lot of people thought, you know, what's the future of Getty in a world where AI images are so easy to and cheap to make ? We don't know what the deal exactly is. The companies didn't share financial terms . One of the questions still open , will geti images be used to train future open AI models ? The answer? We don't know. It's open. Of course, of course, come on. Of course . You would think . Yeah . But at least paying for it is better than just stealing them, right? But yeah, get it gets that money, not the photographers again . Right . Well, but Getty made a deal with the photographers, they bought the love of the rights, right? That teena before exactly. Before the photographers knew this was going to happen . When I was at Chicago and asked, there came a time when all of the writers' contracts had to be renegotiated because nobody nobody anticipated the internet. And we wanted to put up writers stuff and their contracts said nothing about the, you know, digital . Yeah , 'cause nobody anticipated. This is why you get this now. Go ahead. Have you heard of a three hundred sixty deal in Hollywood? You know those are? It's like a deal that basically encompasses all of you forever across the universe . All of our releases at Tech TV said , We own the rights to this in all forms of media in perpetuity now or of in future creation this universe or any imagination . I mean , but that's a lawyer's gonna write that because you know , yeah, but people are signing away their entire likenesses to companies already. Learn. Yeah, maybe you think, you know, Taylor Sw ift found out that Scooter Braun had bought her entire discography on Instagram . He didn't bother to call her. They just, you know, he just bought it. But her response was great. And I don't know if a photographer could do this, but she rec reated all those albums. Maybe she re recorded everything and that's like, that's the thing you're supposed to do. Yeah. That's the way to do it. Take it back . Meta has launched new smart glasses without the name Ray Ban, instead, the name Kylie Jenner . That's the expensive version has her name. Yes version . Yes . This is the Meta Fury Glass . Isn't there a isn't there avenger's character Fury? Am I wrong on that? Nick Fury . Nick Fury. Played by Samuel L. Jackson? No. Yeah . Yeah . So maybe that's why they call 'em fury. These are not wimpy . And for the ladies , there's the Kylie Jenner glasses , which two hundred ninety nine and three hundred and ninety nine. Those are the Kylie Jenners , the Kylie Edition , they feature a little gem on the bridge of the nose and the nose pieces are metal so as not to absorb makeup. I guess that means I should buy them . These are cat eye, and see, yes, they do have have the they the cameras on them. There's also the Meta Adventurers. These will be eighty one bucks cheaper the basic ones because they don't have the Ray Band name on them. Even though the manufacturer, Esalur Laexotica owns Rayband. They make all glasses and everything else. They make all glasses. By the way, look at the Fury's temple pieces. Those are almost as big as the snap glasses . So So SNAP has also announced its AI glasses not as inexpensive as the Meta's two thousand one hundred ninety nine dollars and And when they say was Ian Thompson saying on Twit on Sunday ? Or was it Ian or was it Doc Rock? I think it was Doc Rock on MacBreak Weekly. These glasses you look like Charles Nelson Riley in the front and it looks like you've oh no as Andy Inako said souvenir hockey sticks in the back . They are rather large temple pieces , but remember Snap, like Meta doesn't have a phone . So they've got to build more electronics into the into the spectacles . I don't know who would buy two thousand one hundred ninety five dollars It's a PTSD from my Google Glass. Yeah. That's what Google Glass costs roughly fifteen hundred. They were less expensive. But when you got my special lenses , oh that's right . Yep. Snaps CEO Evan Spiegel says this is it, it's make or break. We can't fulfill our mission without these new AR glasses. I'm a believer in AR glasses. I don't think anybody's nailed it yet. No . Apple's going to be the one in my opinion, but we have to make a leap in battery technologies still. There's still a leap to be made . But yeah, these only get four hours, but the case can charge them several times. But see, the key is having the computing platform. And since everybody's carrying an iPhone , they're already carrying a very powerful computing platform with AI built in internet connectivity takes that all out of the glass es so the battery can last longer. I think we're going to see apple glasses in two years. Four hours mixed. I mean, if you're like me and you have lenses you need the glasses to see, you'd have to buy three pairs. Yeah . And most people , like I've ever talked to who use these only really use the audio and never use the camera. it's great. So why don't they make these that don't have a camera? They're talking about that. There was a hint of that. . And they still haven't built in the face recognition. We know the code was in there, but they backed off. Honestly, that's why the camera , this can recognize the AI in this can look through the camera and tell me what I'm looking at, read signs and forms . I understand all that, but nobody ever uses that . Well, because it's not very good yet. I've tried to use it . Exactly. Like so we're at the point where that technology isn't even that good yet. So why do we why are we trying to sell it to people? Let me see if it's getting better. Hey Meta, what am I looking at right now? We'll be back in a few moments . It's going b It's not connected to the phone yet . See, that's the problem is they don't they can't do anything on their own . Well, too bad. It used to work. I guess every once in a while you have to connect, reconnect a meta AI. Oh yeah, I wasn't logged in . That's why well China has, I don't know what this has to do with anything. T itan, it's Indium phosphate checks. Well, that's a story everybody's talking about. It's on everybody's lips. Forget Fable. What about the Indium phosphate? It's a niche compound essential AI data centers . It's become Beijing's newest point of legend. Got us by the short hairs. They got us by the got us by the Indium phosphsate is what they got us by What else? AI data centers just got a government mandated fast lane to the grid, writes Tim to Chant Tech Crunch , the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission, Ferc . Who do you work for? Oh, I work for Ferk . Oh , oh, you're one of those. You're, what do they call 'em Ferkies? They told me last week to fast freakers freakers, Leo Ferkers. I'm a furker . Your little furker . Six major grid operators have to show that data centers are able to connect to the transmission system in a timely and orderly manner . Well, I guess for the people who are suffering from the wine of the natural gas powered turbines on Elon Musk's data centers, they might be happy to hear that things could go away. Grid operators have thirty days to submit a report detailing how much generating capacity they have to spare , if any , and then sixty days to defend or revise electricity rates within their regions . Basically, the Feds are putting their thumb on the scale for AI, which is why it's so weird I guess it's only I guess that they want to favor some AIs but not all AI's I guess the big boys the big boys . All right , here's some good news. You want some good news? An AI engineer claims that he has cracked linear A Tom Domino, a self taught AI engineer and amateur linguist , linear A is an ancient bronze age Minoan writing system that we don't understand. His claims are currently being reviewed by linguists at Rutgers in Cambridge . Domino studied classical history, linguistics and languages . He has a proficiency in eight languages including Atic, Greek, classic, Latin, Sanskrit, Arabic. Don't you hate people like that? Whoa , I wish I knew Ugarit so handy . He actually went to Crete to learn more about the Minoan Colossus. God bless. He began work though on deciphering a linear A in January . By may twenty second, a major insight came to him . This would be a huge deal. Linear B was deciphered in nineteen fifty two. That made the front page of the New York Times , but we were never able to crack linear A merican . But with the help of AI , the key that unlocked linear A he was analyzing a series of linear A prayer inscriptions that adhered to a formula . In the formula, all of the words in each line of the inscription were known based on their overlap with linear B, except for the first word, first word same verb root , blah blah blah, blah blah blah . And then there's more of that . He used Claude Code to build a suite of Python scripts that query, cross reference, and organize the digitized linear A corpus , enabling systematic hypothesis testing at a scale that would have been impractical to do manually . That's how it did it so fast. Anyway, we'll keep an eye on that one. That would be a big deal What did you think of the mid journey announcement? Did we talk about that last night? No, we didn't. It's really interesting . Well, A it's a pivot, a fascinating pivot not so far as going from shoes to AI as these guys all birds who are now named smart birds and they don't make slippers anymore. My keyspices. Fine. Okay. He's fine. Excellent shoes. So Midjourney, as you all know, was famous for making images until they kind of got scooped by Nano banana and I don't know if anybody long ago, right? We haven't heard of MidJourney in a long time. Yeah. So they decided that to turn their AI chops to another issue. This is their ultrasound that they claim is the equivalent of a full body MRI . Here a young lady in a fair ly modest one piece is being dunked into water . And then there will fire sound through the water at her body and through it. And then the AI will take those fuzzy signals and turn them into a three D image of her body . Those who I've talked to say it is fairly low quality imagery. They are not yet really anywhere near what an MRI could do, but it's a lot cheaper and there's what Jason was talking about this it's trillions of data points . Yes . So I don't know what's cheaper to do, yeah. It's cheaper than building a giant MRI machine. Plus, it's not as unpleasant for the customer. It must be cheaper because mid journeys plans include building a spa in downtown San Francisco for rich people . They're going to have seven of them . They only have one right now . Yeah, I you know what? It's a pivot, it's probably also a hail mary. It's a pivot and a hail mary. Well some of what we call is it a hail pivot or a pivot mary? It's one of the other . They say the actually they'll ten of the scanners in the mid journey spa at Union Square open before the end of next year. Okay, Leo, I think you got to go do it. I will absolutely. I've done the I've done the full body MRI the paid a couple of thousand dollars for it wasn't cheap . But the idea is Kevin Rose told me to do it . So I did it. I do everything he says . Lisa and I went down and got a baseline. The idea is if you know you get this done now and it can tell you, especially if you do it every few years. They said I should come back because I could die any day now in eighteen months and do it again And I have my full , I don't show it to people because it really is quite revealing. I have my full body MRI right here on my phone and I wonder if there's a way to show you without your toes, perhaps I can show you my toes . It said one thing which concerned me a little bit. What my doctor said he wasn't against the idea , but he said, The problem with all of this and it would be the same problem frankly with the mid journey it reveals things about you. We're all imperfect . Nobody is a perfect human. So it reveals something about you that is maybe abnormal , right ? But not necessarily a cause for concern. The problem is if a doctor knows about it, they have to do something about it. Sometimes those are quite invasive . I'll give you an example. Friend of mine got a full body scan and there was a growth on their thyroid . Now that meant they had to go in and get biopsied, which involves a very long needle thrust into your chest in there, had it not pleasant , perhaps risky, turned out completely benign and that person would never have known about it if they hadn't done the full body scan. Yeah, but so the argument I go through this because I have a hand prostate cancer . There's always a constant lot of argument about prostate testing and breast cancer testing , we o shouldhn,'t do so much because the odds that it's going to save your life are low. Well, that's if you look at the aggregate of everybody. If you look at your prostate, I want to know. Yeah. Well, it's an interesting thing because Kaiser, my health plan , used to give me a yearly PSA test. This is a blood test to test for prostate specific antigen. And if you have a high PSA number , it means while you don't test that anymore? They stopped a couple of years ago and I asked my doctor last year. I said, Why don't we do PSA anymore? He said, Well , we'll do it , but you've got to go to this website, this Kaiser website where we explain that we don't like to do it anymore because if it comes out high, then we have to do interventions often which are more dangerous than the very, very slow growing pro state cancer . And so we don't like to know . We prefer not to know. I said, You know what? I'd like to have it anyway. And he said, Okay, you just have to go to this website understand, blob, all of this and say, yes, I understand. And fortunately, my PSA is low. Interestingly, last time a couple months ago went in, he offered it. He didn't even ask. So maybe they've changed their tun they do happens all the time in medicine . But that's the whole idea is sometimes it's better to wait for a symptom than to do one of these tests and see , for instance I hope this isn't too much information . According to the scan I did, one of my kidneys is tiny I was glad you didn't say testicles, but keep going is basically useless is an atrophied . And this is why you want to do a baseline when you're younger. So you're not going to contribute one to me when I need it. I can't give you a kidney. Thank God. Oh my gosh. Tell me your friends. I'm glad I did that scan . So they said we don't know is it could have been you were born that way and it's always been that way or it could be a trauma. It could be a sign that something attacked your kid punched in the kidney. Something should be you should be aware of. Maybe you've got a problem , but we just don't know . And to figure that out would involve invasive surgery, I guess, I don't know, it's not worth it. So I just I have to live with this possibility that I nice knowledge. And you know what ? I even think it could be just a picture was a little skewed and it looked small . You don't know perspective, yeah total perspective could be that perspective could be a perspective thing. Maybe the camera's off a little bit. I had something that looked like a funny thing on my kidney in a MRI or PT scan and then, I went when I was in the hospital for all my stuff, they did a lot of scans on me. And so they looked at and said, No, no, no, no, it's nothing. And I went to the urologist and he said, No, it's not. But this sometimes doing these electives I did pre nuvo. And you know what? Now that I've done it, I do want to do another one just to see for instance, you know, now that you have a baseline, if my kidney continues to shrink , well, then maybe there is something we should, you know, pay attention to. How long are you in the subway tube ? It's like an hour because it's a full body scan. They don't it's not just your brain and it's loud as hell. It's bang bang, bang,, they give you head phones. And they said, What kind of music you want to listen to? And I said, can I have some Americana? They said, sure, but it doesn't mask the bangs . It's like somebody it's very loud and I'm not claustrophobic, so it was fine , but it is a long time. Yeah, it was like, it felt like, I don't know, it was forty five minutes or an hour it was quite a long while 'cause they're moving around, you have to you're doing your whole body anywayway. An,y anyway , so interesting that Majorney's doing this, but this is gonna be a while. That was a big tangent we went on. It was. Two old guys, two old crops. Tell you about my kids about there. Yeah, kidneys. Yeah , so have you done an elective MRI? No, you've did it for good reason. Has it for a reason? Yeah . Princeton graduate built a thirty million dollars AI detection business and now he's selling it to superhuman the fucks won't grammarly and I don't trust any of these AI detection things. I prepare that they're going to accuse people of cheating when they don't. You're going to help cheat zero. Have you ever heard of that one? No Build a random number generator that says if something is fake or not and sell that as an AI detector at this point? Yeah, that's kind of at this point. I had a study a few weeks ago that I put in where if it was all AI was pretty good, if it was all human was pretty good. The weird thing about this study was that when they put in low amount of AI content, it thought it was high . And when they put in a high amount of AI content mixed in, they thought it was low. Yeah. The machine did. Peter A. Jones in our YouTube chat said there's nothing like a really long chat about old men's ailments don't this is why we need Paris on this show. Yeah , come back soon. We'll roll and we'll know we've got all the way . We got to move on . So So your AI can have a phone number now with Twilio. It can even make calls because it can have a voice . With Stripe, you can give it a credit card . Estonia intends to give them digital IDs . Estonia, which already has digital IDs for humans, is going to allow AI agents to have their own digital identities as well . They're going to develop ID codes, AI agents can use to take actions . I guess this makes sense. If you have an identity , here I'll do this. You know what? I'll tell you one thing AI's gotten good at is translation. Oh used to be the translate this page stuff wasn't great. Oh well maybe this isn't a good translation. It translated something in Estonian into the most AI smart people , I guess. Sounds . Yeah . Oh, a million learning byte a year . That's pretty by year. Which what translation are you using? I don't know. I think that was Cogi. You use Google. Maybe she used Google. Yeah, that's all disappointing. Siesta was the button? Yeah, I think yeah now . Let's go back to Estonian . Anyway, yeah, I think that makes sense. Look at my I'm going to campaign for this . I really think that everything, I know they don't want to do this, but everything interface with should have an AI interface on it, an SDK, an API, an MCP server, whatever. I love it that I can I can log into my digital scale through my AI and it can get all the information out of the scale , I think that's fantastic . Unfortunately, the chronometer calorie counter that I use doesn't have an interface , but some guys reverse engineered it and there is a so I can. And so now I can talk to my watch, I can tell it what I ate. It can then get the calories from chronometer, put it in my obsidian, add it to my chronometer, add it to my health summary. Everything should have an interface now in my mind. Do you take pictures of your food? Does that work well? I could do that too. Yeah . I could use my agent, send it a picture because it understands pictures. It would analyze the picture. I haven't tried that yet, but I will try that. There are AI there's one called Cal AI, which I think actually Apple banned. I used it for a while that did exactly that. It wasn't super accurate, but it was good enough. The whole idea is it's a pain in the butt to log your food. Anything that makes it faster and easier is a good thing. I should have asked you this before. Was the carrot cake your entire lunch or just dessert ? No Embarrassing . No, I had a Greek yogurt as well. Oh , so forty to me. I love carrot cake. I bought it a week ago. I thought I'd better eat it now. It's gonna go stale. I just love it. I And only bought one piece. Every once in a while I bought a piece. You know what I did bad though? I made bagels last week. Oh, you had stopped that? Yeah . I had stopped it. I gave away my sour dough , really , because I said, I'm never, I can never do this again. It's killing me . But you know, now that I'm on I've moved from GLP one to terzepepatide, I'm on zepp bound now. My doctor said, That's okay. I wasn't a zempic. But now that it's brought my blood sugar down back to normal, I'm yay, I'm able to eat carrot cake and bagels, but not all the time . But your pancreas has love making your bagels . Yeah. And so I make them, I get one and I give them to everybody in the family. We had a big brunch for Father's Day. Everybody came over and had bagels. It was great. We invited the workers. The guy doing's the drilling outside. We invited them in for bagels. We invited them all in . The New York Times publisher is that Salzburger is Salzburger. Yeah. AG Salzburger says Big Tech is a thief and a liar . Do they use those same words with somebody else we know of? Saltberger . Aren't you a little shy about using those words to describe someone we don't say liar. Yeah, we don't like to use that word . This is you've been talking about this all along. He was addressing the annual Wan IFR World News Media Conference a couple weeks ago. Big tech is stealing news media's property and undermining democracy . Oh the self importance. And the only solution is for news organiz ations to work together to resist it . He said Big Tech's hijacking of the public square is made possible by the original sin that animates their AI products , a brazen theft of intellectual property that has occurred at an unprecedented scale . Check giant strip mind news websites without permission or compensation. Doesn't he have a deal with opening eye? I thought the time No, he's suingit opening eyes. He's selling the restory. Yeah. And mind you, the New York Times didn't kill other papers across the country, but it was a kick to the kidney to many of them. Right . When it went national. You made a really excellent point , I think, on Blue Sky or Mason maybe when the Nicks won the NBA championship , which would have been in the old days of a New York newspaper , banner headlines stopped the presses, pictures, everything . It didn't even make it wasn't even above the fold in the New York Times. So the New York Times was the website to be clear online, they had pictures above the fold. I mean, on paper, they had pictures above the fold, but on the website, yeah, it was lowered on the page. And I said, this is ridiculous. You haven't been a new spaper in a long time, you really aren't now. It's clear. This is just bad news judgment. Well, so here's the interesting thing. You know, I'm talking about the broken times constantly . Times has never raised their head, never said a word, nothing. Suddenly, they responded to me. And well, Jeff, we had it all in the middle of the night and I said, not good enough. You know your readers don't come in more than a few times a month. So you think we just did it once and that's good enough. No, they come in the next morning, they want to see it. It's not there. Bad news, judgment. I thought why did they respond to me in this case? The New York Post did a story about my blue sk . Oh no because they had anything to tweak the times. So they felt they needed to be on the record having I'm sure the post had a banner headline Nick's Win or something, right? I mean Oh yeah. The post loves that stuff. They post in Daily News. I just read a history of the New York Daily News . And it's the kind of thing that you just died for back in the day to do a front page around those kinds of topics. That's the Daily News, the one with a headless body and atopless bar. No, that's the post. That was the post. Daily News was Ford to City Drop Dead . That's right . And I read it in this book, which is not out yet . It's quite wonderful . Evidently it came from one as they were trying to figure out the headline, which was happening. You were standing around the newspaper, you go wrong, throwing out ideas, and somebody passed a note to the editor that said Ford to City F off . And it was for laugh , but that became the basis of Drop Dead. We really are out of time . If there's any stories that we miss that you want to cover, before we do that, I read a little bit of McSweeney's piece by Andrew Singleton, AI economics for Dummies . As AI companies get ready to go public and we get a deeper look at their inner workings, it's only natural to have questions about their finances like do they make money? And how? Here are a few examples to help the average laypers understand the business side of AI Acquiring one grape costs Alex two billion dollars . Alex offers to sell Mike one grape a month for the next twelve months for one billion dollars per grape . Alex asks for the full twelve billion dollars upfront and provides Mike with one grape for the first month. Alex makes a ten billion dollars profit this month . His annual rate of revenue is one hundred twenty billion dollars and his profits are trending up at an infinite rate. The Wall Street Journal's business editor moves into Alex's house having accepted a part time position as Alex's human footstool. He never asks to see the books. It's very funny. It goes on. I won't read the whole thing, but it is a pretty good send up on the economy of AI. Oh yeah I love McSweeney's. Your line one hundred fifteen is something you're gonna like I think and op ed in the New York Times . Oh , I agree with the headline. We have to do maxine has to stop. Yes, we have to stop freaking out. This is by Robert Schiller, who is a Nobel Prize winning econom ist who's just going on about the it's obvious but what's the harm of all this doom stuff ? And we certainly recognize that where we are. So just stop it, just stop it. We all grew up as, he points out, on sci fi on doom sci fi It's been the trope of sci fi and AI since the very beginning. Only in books you are. Only in books. In movies and TV, robots are usually good guys . How nine thousand ? That's one. Name more What's the Forbin project that was a terrible terrible AI . I guess in war games the AI meeting K . No, you know R two D two data R two D two d datataa . Okay, Alano TV AI movies there's more pretty. There's more where they're friends. The movie artificial intelligence, AI . I can think of a lot of modern movies, even her , the AI isn't exactly benign. Terminator is a bad guy, but in the second one, he's a good guy. Terminator, but he comes back as a good guy. But the machines are not good guys in any way. But there's always a twinge of, oh, maybe a it person's. Maybe he feels. But robots and Android half humans. So okay, he's a cyber. Speaking of machines , you told me you said you were gonna buy a new steam. Do you have price Stick or shock? I'm not gonna buy a new steam . The price one hundred and fifty one thousand fifty dollars for the steam machine without a controller. A hundred bucks more . And this is all because of memory chips? Yeah I did buy a new machine. I'd bought in fact, you're gonna inherit my old switch. I bought the new switch too . So you're gonna inherit the old one so you can play the game that Paris really wants you to play. I'll do it for about five minutes . So no, yeah, no other . I'll bring it out when I come out to have one of Hank's sandwiches. Good, which is like Haley's comet . Long anticipated , long waited . Yeah, it's considerably more than it was going to cost. Was gonna cost? Well, they never did announce a price, but boy, yeah, that's it's three times more than the PS five, and it's not it's not any better. So I don't know, I don't know who they're going to, I don't know who they're going to want it for. All right, you're watching intelligent machines. As I mentioned, Paris Martinau has the week off. She'll be back in two weeks . We do have some great guests coming up though. Peris is going to be sad that she's going to miss next week Chris Potts of Bigspin AI . This is all about AI hallucination . Dr. Ian Bargost is coming back. His book is coming out. He said, I'll come back in July when my book comes out. The small stuff. And I'm starting to see interviews with Ian, we really enjoyed having him on. He was the AI whisperer he was on. And I'm happy to say we got Nate B. Jones, who is one of my favorites on AI. I'm very excited about having it. We couldn't even find an email address form. Couldn't figure where to get it. My AI found it . I will not share it with you . I don't know how it found it. I don't know how hard it is to find, but yeah, we're glad we got a hold of them. Anyway, those are all coming up. Paris will be back for Ian Bogost, which is nice. Good in a couple of weeks. And did she get, did she respond to your message? No, she didn't. She must be waiting . She did. She did. Oh, she did, yes. Hello from Old Faithful I am shocked to say I have cell service . I just stuck in traffic because of a giant bison . Good for her . She's out there. So old Faithful's in Wyoming, I thought, is it in Montana ? She's seeing the American planes . Montana still question mark. Were there any pictures? No that she didn't send no pictures. Send pictures . Anyway, we miss her , but she'll be back . And Jeff Jarvis, of course, is here, his new book hot type coming soon. We'll have to interview you when the book comes out. Well, well, we could do some dramatic readings . You could do your hellhobric version. I did my Hellhobrick voice and then I was telling people about this and they said, Who? It will make no sense to some people. I know, only we know . I see you. Avatar Fire and Ash is now streaming on Disney plus . It's the film critics are calling the best Avatar yet a true epic and completely jaw dropping. This is the only pure thing in this world. Return to Pandora on Disney plus. There will be an adventure for the whole family. And watch the Oscar winning phenomenon at home. This is sick . Avatar Fire and Ash, now streaming on Disney plus rated PG thirteen . This episode is brought to you by Street Easy. Here's the thing. Want to be the grandparents who bolted to the Burbs or the cool relatives still living in NYC? The city that people come to be to at the center of everything . With twenty years at NYC know how, Street Easy has the tools, agents, and guidance to make you a forever New Yorker too. Visit streeteasy. com to buy a rent in NYC. Street Easy is an assumed name of Zillow Inc. which has licenses in all fifty states. Tomorrow morning is knocking. Stock your fridge now. How about a creamy moca frappuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla? Smooth caramel maybe , or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Fappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Ladies and gentlemen, it is time for the picks of the week there will only be two of us picking this week I'm sad to say . I will give you in that case this one . It's called in the weights. I don't know. It's an AI vanity search . All right . So what Thomas Dimson and Joey Flynn have done is they have gone and collected all of the different models GBD five , five , mini opus, four eight, Haiku , Grock, Gemini, Kimi, DeepSeek . And they and they allow you to scan them for your name . And then they rank it based on how well known your name is. And as it makes sense, pop icons or higher ranked Minnie Mouse currently today's heavyweight, followed by R two D two Beyonce and a guy known as Charles Lukewig Dodgeon, maybe better known as Lewis Carroll. Now, shall I put in your name, Jeff Let's see if the AI well they know who you are. The question is how highly ranked are you? So we're going to quickly search through professor of journalism. Look at that. You're in the top three percent, eight hundred four strength . Yay. It found you in every one of these except Lama Which is fine. Look, now if we just search for journalism professor, media critic, eight hundred four, which is a very good score. A little weaker on the Twig podcast coast. Only Opus thought you were in that cell. Oh, ouch. And you want to see the hallucinations? Sure. Let me see where are they? I click below. They're below. Jeff Jarvis, British TV presenter . That's what Lama thought you were Jeff Jarvis rock and folk musician , the French model Mistral thought you were a rock and folk musician . Are there Jeff Jarvis there is an Elvis impersonator or Jeff Jarvis, maybe that's what they were thinking. There's a jazz position. Is there a professional wrestler named Jeff Jarvis? I don't think so . Claude Hiku thought that was the case. That's great. That's funny. Isn't that fun? I love this aesthetic. I love this adventure game aesthetic. Isn't it? It's very, it's very eight bit here. I'll put Benito's King's Classif . Yeah, oh, is that what it is? That's what it looks like to me. Let me see, I don't know. Think Benito will show up or Or there's a famous version of me so that name . Ah , so it's going through it's a little slower . It's clustering up all of the different models . American jazz pianists. Yep, that's the one. That's why I can't even be a musician because there's a martial musician than me. Yeah, a Spanish footballer , a Spanish professional cyclist. A Mexican politician. Well, Benito, no wonder it's having a hard time with you. A boxer. I'm not going to ask whose nations could be. Common Hispanic name , okay ? Fictional thirty ninth California Governor, according to Lama, assassinated in nineteen ten and a Filipino politician. Oh, that one's very clear . Quin . Yeah . Well, yeah, you have Filipino politician family members could be . All right. Is Hank in there? Okay. Bold, should we hank with ? Salt hank , let's see . In the weights, is salt hank in the weights. See, it's maybe more too modern, you know, that's that might reduce the social media food creator, he is . This is the one area where I think I might beat him. Yeah, it's a two hundred forty nine score. I think the longevity of your presence in the world . I am top one top one person and ninety four . But again, Lama has no idea and there are no hallucinations . GPT five knows I'm a technology broadcaster , as does Five Mini, Opus , same thing, known as the Tech Guy, founder of the Twitter network. Tech God . Tech guy , that's my radio name. Hi Guy. You're Canadian American. That's a bit of a Yeah, no, sorry, Grock Known for the tech guy radio show and founding the Twitch podcast. Now we're anyway. It's kind of fun. Are you in the weights ? Well, find out. Cool. Yeah. A little fun thing. It's in the weights dot Mr. Jarvis . Few things . One, I didn't know, this has been known. Did you know that the UK is going to turn off sterstrial TV signals? What? In twenty thirty four or now they're thinking about twenty forty five. No antennas . Yeah, they're just gonna turn it off because they'll need inexpensive internet access for all , but then they will just turn off broadcast. Wait, so the spectrum is just going to be wifi. The spectrum's just gonna become Wi Fi ? Yeah or internet TV hardwired, but it'll all be over the top . Yeah. So that's interesting because they have a kind of weird relationship to broadcast. You know, you have to buy a license , right? Broadcast TV license and that funds the BBC , which is a weird thing to do and they actually have little vans that go around to see if anybody's watching TV with that. That was the that's the difference in our model is that is the that's what they decided to make it a public good instead of ads twenties instead of ad supported. It was because the US Navy created, as I said last week , insisted on the creation of RCA, and that set in motion our model versus theirs. I wish we'd had time with Olivia to get into that because I think he would have been wished that I'd be back. That was fun to conversation. It was really fun to talk about that. The computer history museum is hiring someone to start their new AI archive, which is great news. That's interesting. So kind of like internet archive No, I think more like a museum is what do they need how do you save an archive of the AI age ? So they're going to hire one person who's going to work alone at first to capture AI and robotics. What a great job that way. Isn't it? This is if you're in the San Jose area , highly recommend to visit the computer history museum. And do they other great events and much right to things. They did a great event, which was key to my book Hot Type on sale now on the creation of desktop publishing . And they had in the key people who did that to reminisce and it's an invaluable historical document. Everything you do is great. It's great. And the exhibits are fantastic. And if you're a listener to our shows, you'll recognize so much of this stuff in there. There's an Apple one . I mean it is really a wonderful museum . And then my whole family sends this to me regularly the onions. Dad suggests arriving at airport fourteen hours early . So that's me. That's the case. So I found a new TikTok account, which is Airport Dad . All right, let's see. Why are all dads like this? It says, Airport Dad arriving at the airport. Guardian of all bags must have all the passports, checks flight status every five minutes . I guess I am that airport. I do that. Yeah. Annoyed when you stop at every shop. Triple checks everything. Checks, the plane is at the gate, very important. I do that too. Although important every time currently Lease is much more of a I am more like, yeah, we can leave , you know, two hours before the flight will go through plenty of time. I know I don't like sitting in an airport . Yeah, that's standard Filipino behavior. We're always there four hours before our flight . Really? Yeah. Bill Gates was famous , famous for cutting it as close as possible. That's what I did. He flew commercials. Back when he flew commercials, so this is in the very early days of Microsoft , he would arrive , he wanted to arrive just as the gate was closing. Yeah, I used to be on the road . I used to be on the road like every other week, so I figured out how to get to the airport when I needed to. So now I can leave like a nice time exactly yeah, I know exactly how to do it now . Yeah, I know exactly how long it's going to take to get to SNO NG an hour and fifteen minutes the problem is you get there nowadays and the TSA is the is the problem. You don't know how long that line's going to be . That's very unpredictable, right? Although there are ways do you do the what we call it the clear no? Clear, oh I pay for clear. I did clear when it first came out and I was so embarrassed because I walked up and they go here and they take your luggage in your bin and they push ahead to the front of the line. Oh, they don't well , I don't quite do that now. Yeah, no, they have their own line now, right? They have their own line now. Yeah , they still have to go through the TSA Yeah, but you have your own separate line through the TSA . You don't have your own separate X ray machine ? What kind do you do? Oh really? Okay, not at SFO. At SFO , you have to be wedged somehow into the line for taking off your shoes and putting your laptop on, you don't take your shoes anymore either. Well, I know. I guess it's a little I'm old hat now . So I didn't do that. I was embarrassing . Every time we and the other thing is often the line for Clare is long er than the line for because everybody does it now . So you know, I have a global entry, I have TSA pre , that's plenty. I don't even do that. Usually I just used I to be United Global Services . Ooh , which is the highest secret level. I got to kick old ladies out of the jetway. I don't have that anymore. Out of my way, lady. Get out of that wheelchair. Now, however, I will travel with my cane . Oh, that's good . What do they call that? Johnny Jett has had a name for it, the miracle. They call 'em the miracle flights. Yeah , where people when you're getting on the flight, there's forty or fifty people in wheelchairs to get on early. And then they all walk off at the end of the flight. It's like they're healed. It's amazing . I was on a miracle flight. I was like, that was the weirdest I would be again, I'd be embarrassed. I don't want to I don't want to be I just I'll get in line with everybody and be a normal human . That concludes the old man version of even with only two of us, we still went long. Intelligent machines . Thank you so much to Olivier Sylvaine, our guest. He was fantastic . Look forward to reading his book or you should look forward to I read it, but you should look forward to reading his book Reclaiming the Internet, how big tech took control and how we can take it back from Columbia Global Reports . Next week , we will talk about AI hallucination. That should be interesting. Paris will be back in two weeks with a cowboy hat with a cowboy girl. She better have a cowboy cowgirl hat and snake skin boots. We thank you all for joining us. We do intelligent machines every Wednesday right after Windows Weekly. That's two PM Pacific five PM Eastern twenty one hundred UTC. You can watch us do the show live in the Club Twitter. I hope you're a club Twitter. If you're not, please join the club. Support our efforts . Unlike Salzburger, I do not have a trust fund to run this on. We just we rely on the kindness of strangers. You for almost thirty percent of our operating expenses twitter. TV slash club Twitter. It's full for fifty folks. Come on. Come on. Yeah, come on. Actually , you do get one new benefit. You add free versions of the show, but we now have chapter markers in all our shows, which allows you to skip over the old men talking about their Ailmens segment. So that's that's a real benefit. Twitter TV Morbonito has to mark that out. Club twit. Here's a yellow caution partner market. No, no, even though AI does that now. AI does. AI does it. Yeah . So we it's not hard to do. We do do it, but the problem is because of ad insertion after the fact, we don't know the lengths of the shows with ads and so we can't really do it reliably