Future Projects and Closing Thoughts

into the Aher. It's a low key video game podcast, and my name is Brerennan Bigley. My name is Stepven Hulger. It's a big week for you and me, Stehven. Yes. Yeah, a lot to talk about today. The adventures of Elliot has come out. It's out. Here's my question for you. Is it still Elliot's summer? That's the thing I address it at the top Yeah, is it Elliot summer or is it Elliot Day? I think we we got to figure out how much screen time Elliot gets. I'm gonna give Elliot June. Elliot June. That's fair. I think it's Elliot mononth. I think he I think he has earned his keep for more than a day. I think he's earned his keep for at least a week and I think come July. He gets the rest of June So gets a week basically. Yeah, he he has like two weeks. He got he got last week and he gets a week because it came out, you know, the game came out what the day after last episode came out. So and then he gets until the end of June. So he gets like a good half a month. That's not look, most adventurers get nothing. Oh my gos. most adventurers dream of a half a month Who is as cool and charming and down to earth and good at adventuring as Elliot? Right. According to the story, no one. Almost nobody. Almost no one. Basically everybody perishes in some horrible way in the adventures of Elliot except for Elliot. If you're an adventurer and you are living alongside any of the ages that Elliot has access to You are fucked, my friend. Yeah, for Elliot, it's like Elliot forever. He's in every timeline He's Kang. He's Kanging the con. Ary at the conquer Okay, so the Adventures of Elliot is out. this is the latest game from Tam Asano. It's a game that you and I have almost been like we have done more marketing and hyping up for this game than anyone else, including ScrayX. Yes. T the point where someone in the Dcord politely asked, why are you too excited about whichich really made me laugh. It is now out, the full game is out.. This also was a game that got two very lengthy demos. Yeah, very different demos. Yeah, The first demo came out about like November or December? Yeah, so we got that first demo a while ago, which was essentially a vertical slice of the game like in the middle of the game. So like at a point where Elliot has the bulk of his powers and abilities. And for those who don't know, the Adventures of Elliot is essentially Timasano's take on Zelda mashed with like East and the mana series. Yeah Plus like what they're interested in as a team. And I think the reason you and I were so excited for this is because we've been following Timasano pretty closely with their games and I just think they've gotten better and better over time. You know, I think even their worst games have something about them that is like extraordinary. Like Bravely defefault, I would say, is like lower on my list of Timasano games I can recognize that that kind of led the way for this like retro branch of Square Eix continuing. You know, that was at a time where Final Fantasy was really changing direction and design and Brilly Default came out like in twenty thirteen, well before we had this like established division of Square that like works on these kind of HD two D games So I think Braillilee Default like I don't love that game, but I do love a lot of pieces of it, spepecifically the combat and the music and the look of it. Yeah. I think that their most recent game, Octopath Traveler two, I think they have also worked on some of the Dragon Quest remakes, but like the last sort of like official Timasano game, which is kind of funny to say because they're not like directly credited. It's sort of like an unofficial It's the most official official team It was even up in the air if they were making the adventures of Elliot at a certain point. It took a while for that to be confirmed. Yeah, after Octopath two, which I thought was like a remarkable RPG, I was really excited for Elliot because I was like, okay, here's a team that's only gotten better at what they do, entering a completely new domain. L they haven't done like a top down action game yet. Yeah. I feel like we've saw the Bravely series from them, which is three games at this point. And then Octopath one and then was Triangle strrategy in between there? Yeah. Triangle strategy was between Octopath and Octopath. And then Octopath two and as you were saying, it's clear that they have assisted in some way, shape, or form on the Dragon Quest remake stuff. And live alive, I think. And live alive as well. Yes, exactly. I would say of all of those games, the weakest one to me personally was Triangle strrategy. and even then I had a great time with that game and I thought it was like a very interesting take on trying to become like kind of the ultimate revival of this style of game, which to me at least continued even though I didn't connect with it as much as I would have liked to Continued Tam M Asano's trajectory of being like, you kind of have blank check status for me. Like you could do whatever you want and I will check it out. And the idea of them doing a Zelda in particular was like just a no brainer thing to get excited about to me. Yeah, especially considering, I think what made Octopath Traveler two so compelling to me is that the driving force of that game was exploration and discovery Like it was really like a very interesting modern take on the sort of loop of something like Dragon Quest three or FF five, where both those games kind of let you freely roam the world and kind of build your party as you explore. And it was so cool to see like what does a modern open world game with like retro RPG mechanics look and feel like Yeah. And the answer is lo to Beth too It's an incredible game. So I went into Elliot with pretty high expectations and I'll say at the top, I am a little disappointed if I were to say like where this falls for me. I think I feel about Elliot a similar way to how I felt about the first Octopath or Triangle strategy where I'm like, these are all games that are doing at least one thing exceptionally well, but there's like clearly other elements of it that are holding it back. Yeah. And again, I think the best and worst thing about Tamasano is that their weaker games make you think I wish this gets a seek or I hope this gets a seek. Yes whereere it's just like There's a thing I cantop thinking about while playing Elliot. Yeah, yeah. and Elliot, I mean, they're entering a totally new style of game here. So I think it's fair that like it's not to one up octopath two when they're doing completely different mechanics and such. But yeah, I'm about I would say ten hours into Elliot. I'm in the third age of the five that are in the game. It's like a time traveling story. There are five in the game? I think so. yeah. Acording to the worldld map, I think there's five. Oh man, I thought there were just three. Nos In the trailer they confirm four and then I think there's probably a secret hell yeah, dude. Okaykay. That's exciting. It is yeah. yeah'' exciting also a problem in some way, but we'll talk about it, ye. Yes, yes. I have a lot of, you know, we only bring games up if we're enjoying them. I have a lot that I'm enjoying about Elliot, but I think it's worth digging into what's holding it back a little bit as well. Yeah. I think worst The case scenario, I think for us on the show is like a Kingdom of Hearts II, you know, where like you and I spent all this time hyping up the fact that the Kingdom of Hearts threeI coming out and then we played it and we didn't like it very much. And then we immediately pivoted to Apex Legends, which came up that week Which I have, you know, obviously gone back and played K of Hrs three and talked a lot about that. But point being, like that is always kind of like the pin on the corkboard to me of like This can happen with our format sometimes. I don't think Elliot is a Kingdom Hearts three scenario. I like it way too much for it to be that. But also it is one of those things and we've talked this comes up a lot too, where like I like a lot of it, but whenever I talk about it, I can't help but talk about the things that I don't like about it. Yeah. fun time talking about the game as a whole. but I do think it's one of those things where like when you kind of analyze this game, you end up coming up or one ends up coming up harsher than maybe they mean to. Yeah. But I will say I am enjoying it a lot. like the sum of its parts are coming together in the form of a game that is not I think the thing I hoped it would be, but it's still a thing that I can't help but be playing basically at all times. and I really love noodling around in. The Zelda game that it reminds me the most of, and this is maybe the most glowing comparison I could make is a link betweenween Worlds on the three DS. It feels the most to me like that. A link between Worlds on the three DcondS is it's a game That is kind of the precursor to Breath of the Wild in terms of A Numa and team exploring what an open leegend of Zelda game can be, an open ended leegend of Zelda game, where you can kind of go around and do anything in any order. That game allows you to go and rent the different items that you need to go into the different dungeons. You can kind of do them in whatever order you want. But I think the thing about a link betweenetween worldorlds that always pulls me in every time I revisit it is less of the I can do the dungeons in any order and more the because I can rent any item any of these tools and pieces of equipment from the beginning, it means that I have full access to explore all of Hyrule basically immediately. There are very few things that they give you throughout the game that gate progress or prevent you from exploring at your whims, which I think makes that game kind of addictive to move your way through. L there is something about the experience of playing a link between worlds where like you kind of can't help but poke at the different edges and the corners. And anytime you find something that's even remotely interesting and you're like, oh, if I had bow for example, maybe I could explore this, then you zip back, go get the bow, come back to this place, try it out and you're immediately rewarded. Elliot feels like that to me, especially when you have, at least at the point that I'm at, I think we're roughly in the same area. Yeah. There are three ages that I've unlocked at this point. I can bounce between them freely, I can fast travel to all these different points all over the map between all of them And there's a point in the game where they give you a compass that also shows you like things you haven't unlocked yet and kind of points you in the direction of some stuff, which won I won't give away at the moment. But I feel like I'm kind of getting in some ways, the best version of like a Ubisoft open world checklist game in a Zelda structure with Tim Asano's art direction and music And that is working for me a lot better than maybe it sounds on the tin. I will say some of the weaker that like the story is rough, the dialogue is rough. But I think from like a gameplay perspective, I feel myself pulled into the edges of Elliot's world feelildia Yes, feelabildia across all of these ages in the same way I felt myself kind of compelled to explore all the different catacombs of Silk Song That is weirdly the game that I find myself comparing this one to the most. I don't think it's nearly as good as Silk Song. No, but but I do think in terms of my desire to explore, I see. And the rewards I get for doing so, that loop feels very Silk Song adjacent to me. It's all of the surrounding stuff that I think brings it down a couple pegs. but I do think the core of what they have here is really strong Which to your point feels the most interesting to me in terms of will there ever be a sequel to this? Because it feels so much like Octopath Traveler. and what you and I loved about Octopath Traveler, The first one was how much they got right and how clear the bounds were for things that could be improved down the line. This game has like I could literally just sit here, open up like a text document and write down like five things and just hand it to Timasano and be like, if you fix those five things, this game will be perfect. Yeah, it's almost Never has there been clearer like feedback points on anything. Yes. I will say like as much as I love this team, I do think narrative is a consistent issue for them. Like a lot of their games tend to be overwritten. I'm not quite sure why. L I don't know like I dont want to blame anyone for that. But like triangle strategy, incredible tactics gameplay, really fun like RPG stuff. L I loved how when you had to make big decisions in the story It was literally like an election. Like you had to so great sway people to vote a certain way. And the story wasn't bad. Like I actually think if you just said like what is the most interesting story in a Tamasano game, it's probably that one. but it was just like literally like an hour and a half of cutscenes in between battles. Yeah. And like I enjoyed the first Xenos saga. like I have patience for that, I think it's just a matter of like what are we playing this for? And like at a certain point, it just felt like this there isn't really payoff here for having this much story. Yeah. Like that game had a thing where like you got this sort of game of Thrones world map where it would show you what you can select and it's like, here's an exploring mission. Here's a battle mission. here's a story scene. And you basically had to go through like Sveral story ones unlock the next battle, but then there would also be optional story ones. And I'm like, I don't want to sit through more cutscenes, but I also feel like I should know this. Yeah. Like Yeah, you kind of need the context, especially considering so much of the game literally hinges on as you were talking about the election scenes. like you need that added context to make those decisions in a way that feels right And I think I would even go as far as saying that's kind of one of the things that Octopath traveler by design kind of avoids because there are eight characters that you're playing in both games or eight characters that you're playing as. like you can have one or two of them be a clunker and as long as the other as long as your hit rate is strong enough on the other ones, like it works out in the balance. Yeah. I think the main issue with the first Octopath and this is like Almost unanimous note is that like it took way too long for the stories to come together. the selling point of that game is like anybody can be the main character. You choose who the main character is. You get these eight different stories and then you see them intertwin. And it no joke takes like thirty hours to like see the beginning of that. Yeah right. T is slightly better in that regard T is a significantly better experience in my opinion because the stories are not the main event. L they are another piece of the exploration and discovery. And I also just think on some level, they're better stories. L the writing is better and Outopath two. In both cases, the characters are a lot of fun. L they're definitely like the characters are more interesting than the writing is. if that makes sense. And two, I think just like nailed the delivery of the story and the characters, I think were just more compelling overall. Yeah. Okay, my thing with Elliot's story is that like I am on board for the whimsy and the sincerity of it And I actually don't think the like moment to moment dialogue is that bad. It's just like bizarrely delivered. Like I I need I need We're not usually this show, like cinemasin's adjacent, but like there's something that happens at the end of the demo that I guess is technly a spoiler that I need to talk to you about. it like it's the thing that is making the entire plot of this game so confusing to me. Yeah, okay. Do you want to shouldould we talk about it? Yeah, I think we should. Okay. So ye don' if you don't want any spoilers, I guess maybe kip ahead a bit. Yeah, we'll get back to a spoiler free discussion. But I say the demo of the game is the despite it taking anywhere between two to four hours depending on how much exploring you do, the demo of the game is the inciting event of the game. So like it's basically just telling you like what the stakes are for the rest of the game. Okay, so Elliot begins, you know, he shows up everyone's like, Ohh my Godd, he's the coolest best event. L The first hour is just people gessing up, Elliot. Honestly, I love. That's I love his red hat. Part of We're excited for this. It's just like it feels like someone's OC is getting the spotlight. It's like, yes, Elliot's here. And you're doing kind of classic early Zelda E stuff, early like RPG stuff. Basically at a certain point, it's revealed that there is like a sealed ancient ruin that is a doorway to the past. There's a way to travel back in time through this magical doorway. and the king is like, no one should enter this. And the like evil advisor is like yes, finally a chance to rewrite history so that I am king. And he goes there and like kills a guy he goes into the past, like recruits a bunch of people from the past Basically leaves them all for dead, Yeah kills a guy and then is like, I got a lightsaber and I'm the winner Yeah, so like he gets he gets this evil like so Elliot basically is tasked like going back into the past and stopping him. Yeah. And so like I forgot his name, but the evil advisor like pulls out this sword. You Freed, I think. Yeah Fed beccomes like huge and evil. basically an actctop path boss. Yes. And it it's the equivalent of A similar be in Ocarina where like Ganondorf gets access to something And the whole world changes.. So it's given the same weight, like you're fighting him, you can't inflict any damage. He literally kills Elliot Yeah. and Elliot is like falling into Kingdom Heart's world and is like,, but I'm Elliot. I had so much cool stuff. I wanted to simple and clean is not how I'm feeling I'm feeling dirty and complicated. And there are all these voices. and then a fairy appears, your psychic fy, who revives Elliot and he's like, I got to tell the king what happened and the princess and my friend Yi Jan what happened goes back in time and they're like, o, that's disappointing. Okay, well, maybe I guess you should stop him eventually. And like The plot kind of like forgets what happened and like there's almost no repercussions at least so far of the big bad getting this big sword and attempting to rewrite history. Yeah, they're basically like you need to go get a shield that is as legendary as the sword called the Moon mirror. So then you're like, okay, I guess my quest is to go get the Moon mirror. but I agree with you. I found it to be the most baffling thing was The villain goes into the past and wins so he could rewrite history and then nothing changes at all. Which like, yeah, it just it makes the time travel because I think, okay, like this game is not that interested in like the repercussions of time travel, which is fine. Like Chrono Tgger wasn't really either. L but they taught you the rules very early on. Like in Chrono Tgger You end up in the medieval times first. and there's that little cutscene of like, oh shit, if Marlely's grandmother dies, then she'll cease to be in our time. Right. So they establish right away that like, okay, our actions in the story will have an effect on the future. Yes. And that leads to the inciting event of that game where they see the ruined future and they go, wait a minute, we can stop this. It's not too late in our time. Right It's simple' There's a couple fun things about time travel and Chronochger, but Chronochgger largely treats the different eras as settings. It's not like Stein's gate or something where it's like that complicated So I don't need Ellie So're not they're trying to be primer. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But with Ellie, I'm like we do need to know like all that's happened is that the princess is kind of like under the weather now And otherwise there's like nothing really at stake. So I just feel like zero like I'm just so confused like what like I know what's happening, but I don't like it just feels like out of order in a strange way. Yeah. And that so it kind of takes me out of like the drama and stakes of it that like we go from this inciting event where Elliot dies and then we're like right back to like Getting people's hats off the beach and like, you know, like that's kind that's video game logic in general, but like it just feels like there's nothing pressing after that happens. Yeah. I think the thing so have you have you gone to see Cure Freed again? No, I haven't. Okay. So I think I'm a little bit pasty then. Yeah, yeah I won't say much about it, but at a certain point, you get the moon mirror, you like I just got it and we need to imbue it with magic and I met the cat girl. That's where I. Okay, yeah I know you are then. So I'm like past all of that. There's another there's some more stuff that happens. I went and encountered Kurefreed again and I feel like I have now reached what is maybe the actual inciting event of the game Okay. Like there is that one in the demo that kind of teases it like this is this is what the story is all about and then it doesn't happen. But still even that one has had, I would say one, one thing change in the future because of it that is like not that wild and doesn't really change the stakes or the story that much. I feel like that's definitely kind of one of the weaker elements of the game from a storytelling perspective. And I also think it manifests in the gameplay as well. I just it feels like the time travel story in general like wasn't the move because the sense the sense that I get and don't I don't want to put this on the development team because I don't know about the history of the making of this game, but the sense that I get is that the game is more ambitious than they had the time or budget to really see through fruition because the thing that's really I think dragging it down for me in this aspect is exactly we're talking about the Cronone Tgger stuff. L you go into the future and it's completely bombed out and ruined and you're like, oh my Godd, I can go change things. If I have the ability to freely travel between the past and the future, even something like Occara of Time does this, I think really well. Yeah. There are almost no changes in the world between those spaces outside of like the main city hub Like the city that you start in, it's, you know, this like kind of wonderful little castle town. When you go into the past, it's like kind of ruined and bombed out. when you go out even further into the past, it's like this beautiful, like kind of technologically advanced society, which is an interesting idea, but that doesn't extend out to the actual exploration of the rest of the world Like one great example, One of the first dungeons you go to is this place called the root Lotus. It's just this like giant flower growing out of a swamp. And when you're there, there's like a big fight with a big, weird toad. Love that fight. Great bosses are great Bosses are amazing. Yeah ye. Great fight, love that whole experience. And if you're anything like me, you will think to yourself, well, now that I have access to the root Lotus I can now go into the other two time periods that I have access to and I can see what this dungeon is like in the past and in the future. So I went and did that and the answer is it's almost exactly the same in all counts. It's just some of the doors are like blocked off because like either maybe like a doorway has collapsed or something, but in almost all cases, there's no extra like boss there There's like a couple chests to get some extra money in here and there, but there's almost no reason to go visit them unless it's like specifically marked on your map. And that's the thing that I find the most disappointing is like, especially if I get to four and then hypothetically five different eras, every single cave, every single dungeon, every place you go to, you will need to check in all five time periods to see if you can find everything. And it rewards exploration sometimes. and then other times it's just like flatly there's nothing there. And that's the thing that really gets me more than anything el. Yeah this is the weirdest thing about the game. I agree completely. And it's like again, I don't want to be this nitpicky, but I do think like setetting up a time travel narrative, I think there are these basic questions that come up Yeah of like what are the stakes? what does Elliott have the ability to change? And then on a gameplay perspective, like what is you know should I just be following the main story? Because the other weird thing about this game and this is to your point, where the game lets you freely explore pretty early on. once you have the bombs, I have every weapon at this point. same The game's like more Zelda E items are the fairy powers, which are really cool. I love them. The game really pops off once you have more weapons to choose from and more fairy powers. So like right now I have I can ignite Fe and she can light things on fire, which can just do damage, but it can also like light torches, which you know opens up more possibilities. I also have the Sprint, which is my favorite. You just like zoom around It's so fun. really good And then I have a teleport ability. So like at this point, I can go to most places and the game you know will mark on your map like where you should go next, which I don't mind. But like the world is so rich and beautiful and fun that like on the way there, because they're going after Zal of this directly, I'm like, oh well, if something catches my eye, surely I should Check it out. Yeah. And the game is weirdly selective with what they want you to see at any given time. Yeah. Like you'll find like four very visually distinct landmarks on the way somewhere. and like sometimes it's like an optional trial that will reward you for doing it or it's like a little mini dungeon that has There was one time where after I got the teleport power, I remembered a chest I saw that I couldn't reach. So I went back and I got the bow upgrade. Right, right. So like it is I think this team was aware that that's like a strength of Zelda, and that's sort of like an expectation for a game going after Zelda. Most of the time, like fifty fifty, it's like half of the time you get like rewarded for your curiosity. And then the other half of the time they're like, please this is a dress rehearsal. Don't go in here yet. You should leave. Yeah. And like you can stay and like, yeah, you might find some enemies and some extra money, but like you should actually listen to them when they say don't go here yet because it is just a waste of time Yeah Have you I forget where it is, but I think it's around where both both you and I are. Have you gone to that place where they ask you to go into one ruin, but there's also access to like a big tree? Yes. Yes. That's that was like the clearest indicator of this kind of moment where like there's a giant tree that looks kind of like the Deiku tree that you can go into that like is clearly telegraphed as It's going to be some kind of dungeon eventually. And you can go in and you can start to explore it, but then there's like one locked door that just like doesn't have a key that's available at all. It will probably just be handed to you at some point in the story. And then basically once you've explored all of it, Fe is like, I think we have more pressing matters to attend to than to be here. And I'm like, oh, okay. well, you shouldn't have given me access to the tree in the first place. It's weiring to let me go into the tree in the first place It sounds like we're being really nitpicky, but like it just hurts the feeling of exploration because I'm like nervous about where I should or shouldn't go. And so therefore I'm not confident that like anything is worth my time. Yeah. So I just end up sticking to the main objective, which at that point defeats the purpose of making this open map. Right. Yeah In regards to the time travel stuff, when they give you the bombs in the first place, the weirdest moment for me was they give you the bombs in the past and then they ask you to blow up some rocks that are like blocking a pathway. When you go to the future after that, the rocks are still there again, even if you already blewed them up. It's like little things like that where it's like that to me, and this is I think more to your point is like the most basic expectation I have for a time travel story is like if I go into the rocks or gone. If I go into the p and blow up a rock, that rock should not still be there when I go into the future or if I go into the future even past that. it's weird that I have to use three bombs. L it doesn' doesn't like ruin the game or anything. Right. None of these things are deal breakers, but they all add up in a way where it's like, well why is Why was this the choice then? Yeah. They're all they're all things that you will think about. And I think that that's the most important thing is like you will be constantly running into weird stuff like this over and over again. And again, so much of this game is great and I do want to talk about all the stuff that I really. We'll get to the good stuff at the end. But there is there is all this weirdness about it. like I know you were watching my stream when I was streaming it the other day, but like Even stuff like I went through this entire cave system ended up on this like cliff face that had a chest on it that had like basically their equivalent of a piece of heart in it, whichich is great. so exciting. Like shard of life. Yes, great a great thing to find at the end of like you know a little bit of spilunking. But like a weird thing is there's this fence around the cliff's edge that the cliff is kind of above kind of the main explorable area. So this area with the chest is, you know above where you would normally be like running back and forth and you can only gather through the cave This fence texture that they built or like this fence model lines the whole thing, but there's one area of it that's broken. It's like a broken piece of the fence, which very clearly visually indicates like you can jump through here and jump back down. But you can't. they just it's just a broken piece of fence that they like modeled in but didn't actually allow you to like jump over and past, which does mean that you need to run all the way back through the cave system to get back to where you started, or open up your map and then fast travel somewhere else, which is like it kind of feels like giving up in some ways to me. Just weird little things like this. the thing that really I think I keep hitting on is like there's just this level of polish that I think isn't there in this game that again, is not preventing me from disli or not preventing me from liking it at all But are bits and pieces of it that are very hard to not hone in on while you're playing. Especially compared to their previous game, Outopath two, which like I keep thinking about because I mentioned earlier that that game is driven by exploration and curiosity. Like if you see a part of the world map that looks interesting to you, you can go there, you'll find like a license for a new job Many times in that game, I'll just go into a cave and fight a weird looking boss and then later realize that was part of a side quest that I can now just cash in. Oh ye. That's the way to do this is like if you're giving us the freedom to go somewhere and we can bump into we can like walk into areas that maybe we're not like on the quest line for It's like Skyram where like everyone did Blak Falls Barrow before talking to the wizard and White Run Right. And he's like, oh, you already have that. Like you're cut from a different cloth, you know? Like I know that's very hard to do. And again, like I recognize how difficult it is to make and open Z all the game in five different time periods. Like I think you're going to run into at least some of this stuff, even if you do your best job But I do think it's interesting that Octopath, even though it's like a totally different game mechanically, definitely did the like Zelda Curiosity stuff significantly better than this game. Yeah, it's interesting too because there are elements of that in this game. L I think a great example of this actually. So I got the bow upgrade that you're talking about. Yeah, which is awesome The upgrades are so cool. I got it after I got the third bow upgrade because o, interesting. Be I had just spent all this time exploring and I had this thought that was like, I want to go into this cave system that I've already explored in other time periods and see if there's anything here. And there what there was there was an extra optional boss just sitting there in this cave system that I had already explored into other time periods. And when I beat them, I got a chest that upgraded my bow twice So then later on in the game, I found the chest that you were talking about and it was like a bow upgrade and then it was two stars instead of three stars, which is what I already had. I was like, oh, that's funny. I guess I was supposed to find this earlier. But like that's not disappointing to me. That feels like what I want out of the game. Like that to me feels like, oh, I'm kind of sequence breaking.' I'm pushing a little bit further past what the game expects of me and I'm being rewarded handsomely for it. Like that's the kind of stuff that I want from this game U And it and it's weird to run into it occasionally and then in other moments have what you're talking about where it's like, actually you can't be here. But that that moment in particular sticks with me is like, if you if you like optimize a sequel for this feeling that I have right now, like stumbling into this cave in this one time period, fighting this boss, getting this bow That's exactly what I would want from an Adventures of Elliot like series, hypothetically. Yeah. I think the other thing while we're kind of opening with our feedback, we got to talk about the companions. I predicted this after the demo. That's the thing that's gonna to push so many people away from this is the talkative companion Now let me say at the top, I like the character. L again, I'm like on board for the whimsy and the like sincerity of this thing. I think Fey is a fun character. I like the vocal performance. L I have no issue with her. I literally had a moment. So she's like in the lower left corner of the screen. And I actually love like the animated portraits are so beautiful. Yeah gorgeous. And I love her reaction to scenes. like seeing her like pump her fist or like look kind of bored during a boring scene. L I love that. all that stuff is great. And I like when I mentioned this when you know, early in the game, it's the prrincess instead of Fe. And I like when we get these moments of character or like observations on what's happening A great example of this kind of thing working well is a game like Bastion where you have the narrator like giving you story and also commenting on what's happening in a way that's like in a way that heightens the experience rather than reverberating what you're already seeing. Yeah. You know, like in Bastion, as you're fighting waves of enemies, you'll hear The narrator go like, let's talk about Kid's past for a bit. And the moment I think everyone like the moment where we all realized Super Giant was amongst the greats was when they give you the hammer and they know you're going to spend like two minutes just breaking pots. Right Yes. And he says Kid just rages for a while. So good. but that kind of adaptive narration is a lot of fun In Elliot, we get like, wow, at chess, you should open that chest. And like, oh, wow, you got hit. You should heal. L, oh, look, it's a door. You can go through it. It's like, I can't believe they did this. it's to the point where I literally had a moment where Fe said two things at the same time. Like she was so excited to tell me What I was looking at that it happened twice over The worst one I ran into kind of a similar flavor of the one you were just talking about was I saw a bombable wall and Fe goes something something to the effect of like, it looks like that wall is about to fall over. And then I went and I bomb just to be clear, I already had been pulling out my bomb when I saw that wall from afar because the bombable walls are literally glowing. like it's not it's not even like Zelda where it's like, you know, they're just like kind of cracked a little bit and you just they're glowing and highlighted. They're glowing and highlighted. So I'm walking towards there with a bomb over my head ready to throw it at the wall. Fe goes it looks like that wall is about to fall over. I throw the bomb, it blows up And immediately afterward, Fe goes, Wow, how did you know that was there? Great eye. And I'm like, come on, man. It really feels like all those videos that are going viral where it's like, Luigi, you're at Max Heel. it's literally that, whichich like I feel mean because again, I like the idea. I honestly liked Noavi. don't I'm not against having like a chatty companion Yeah But it should be like you need to trust the player more. like it gives the impression that this game is for a much, much younger audience, which I don't think it is. L I don't think they game is in the marketing or in the game itself. I don't get like it's certainly more kid friendly than Octopath is. But like I don't get the sense that they were going for a younger audience with this Yeah Yeah, it's a weird thing because even there are interviews with the director of this game who has said like they were surprised to find that people think the companions are too chatty, which I think is interesting. You know, that like when they between the first and second demo, they added this one setting where you can like change the companions from to reticent. Yeah, from like standard to reticent Which I think is a placebo. I don't think it does anything. 'use I've done both and it's like almost the same. Yeah But even that, like they were like surprised that they needed to add that, which find I find interesting because it makes you at least it makes me wonder what the intentionality behind having a companion be so talkative is. You know, I think there is this sense of like, they don't want you to feel like lonely while playing this single player game in some way. And I don't know if I buy that, especially because Elliot speaks like that's that's the bigger thing is like when I think about Navi and Occarine of Time, their place in the game is kind of filling in the space of Link being able or Link not being able to speak, right? Because Link is supposed to be in that sense, kind of like a self insert. So Navi's like Jack and Daxter. Yeah place in the first one where like you have the talkative sidekick basically as like a persona for the character. Yeah. I think I think the thing where whereere Fae steps over the line is the like God of warar Ragnarok thing of of just like giv giving you the answer to puzzles and solving puzzles for you. And it's interesting because like there are there I have run into a couple puzzles here and there where I really need to like sit and think about it. Like there's me there ye that does happen every now and then. Yeah. like I walked into one kind of shrine adjacent place that was like a sokaban puzzle You know, and I sat there for a second and it gave me a pop up that was like, did you know you could push blocks? And I was like, I did actually. That's the thing. It's like not only is it Fe, but like there are moments of Elliot that are pretty common where Elliot, Faye, and someone else will talk about how cool it is to do a very basic mechanic that you already know if you've played a single video game. Never mind Zelda And then you get slammed with the tutorial screen right And then Fe comments on it again. Yeah. That's like That's the stuff that's like really That's like it's egregious. And I feel like I'm usually not this guy. it's baffling that it's that many things on top of each other. Yeah. And it's so funny because I mean, we've been talking for over forty minutes now about all the things we don't like about this game, but I really love it Like I really like all of that said, I'm really enjoying my time playing Elliot. I find it to be this like wonderful space to just kind of exist in and run around in. And I find myself so pulled into like the little kind of more menial stories and I love talking to NPCs and I don't mind the cutscenes and stuff. It really just is like This stuff that we're talking about on the high level that like just keeps like poking little holes in the experience over and over again. but none of it is a deal breaker for me. And I think it will be for a lot of people. And I think this is one of those games where towards the end of the year when like the steam winter sale happens and Elliot goes on sale for the first time, like this will be a game that a lot of people will suddenly start to pick up and probably find a lot of fun in Especially when it's like a lot cheaper, but I don't find myself to be put out by any of this stuff in a way that prevents me from wanting to like see it through. Like I am enjoying it enough and I love the combat. I love, I mean, there's so much stuff that we haven't really talked about since we talked about the first demo. But the combat stuff in particular, I really enjoy. So as you mentioned, you know you and I have access to all the weapons, but all of those weapons can be upgraded over time as well. like you need to find the upgrades, which is I think also great. Like the idea of needing to explore and find the upgrades through that I think is is the right way to do it. It's like Mina in that way. Yes, whichich I think that that's that's definitely a fun thing. I would say about like five or six hours in once you have all the weapons and you have, you know access to all of them and you can start to kind of figure out which ones you like the most. But the more the more important part there I think is the fact that you can modify all of them based on the different magisite that you have. So when you defeat an enemy, you get money, but you also get these like things called Magisite shards. And if you get enough of them, you can bring them to a merchant in town who basically like like a gotcha game on mobile, like you just kind of dump all these Magisite shards in And it spits out a bunch of different magocite crystals that are tied to different weapons. So like your sword, for example, you can get one that's like very simple. It's like attack up. It'll increase your attack with the sword by twenty percent, whatever, whatever. But you can get some more interesting ones that are like, if you defeat an enemy, your next attack will do fifty percent extra damage or something like that I like the boomerang one A boomerang will block one projectile is really good. I love I love that one. And you basically have like there are these little like boxes full of gems that I love the look of and you have a certain number you like basically every magicite has a different point value and you can't exceed like whatever the box is set at. So the magicite stuff is great. I think the weapons are really fun. I like that with the weapons, you can equip two and it doesn't have to be like melee andranged. You can have like the bombs and boomerang if you want, you know Yeah which love I love that kind of expression. And I think the thing about the magicite system that's really interesting Well, first of all, some of them are like really outlandish. L you get a hammer eventually. one of I found a magisite gem that makes it so if I charge the hammer and then slam it down on the ground, it shoots lightning all over the place. Yes, I have that as well.reat Like really cool. Eventually I might find something that I like more than that though. And I think for different players, you will gravitate towards different weapons because of which magisite you've unlocked and what you have equipped and you'll start to experiment. There is a button you can press that just like let's Fae equip all the magisite for you recommend having messed with that, never ever use that. Always see what is more interesting to you because I'm rooting for Faye, but shet she can't catch a win. Yeah that bit in particular. Well, she made like the most dangerous build for me with the bombs. That was the thing that turned it off for me. where like anyt timee I took a bomb out, there was like a one hundred percent chance died. It just blew up in my hands. She was mad at you for putting reticent on. Yeah, I did I have not put reticent on. I've kept it on talkative because I want to just see what they want to do with this. I want to see where it goes. I might againgain, I switched it to reteticine in the demo and I noticed almost no difference. Yeah Yeah, I'd be interested to see like maybe somebody out there has actually done some testing confirm or deny what's going on there? You can change the dialogue volume So a friend of mine is playing it who's like way more bothered by that than even I am. I'm bothered by it. He just shut off the dialogue volume entirely. Yeah. So you still see it on the bottom, but you don't hear it constantly. Yeah. I just also I'm playing this game with the Japanese voice acting, which I love to be clear. and I have found that Fei has not really bothered me that much, which is also I like part of The English Dub is fine. I mean, that's another thing with T Masano's work is like some of the earlier games, the English Dub was like very hit or miss. and I think they've gotone a lot better. They've Octopath is great or Octopath two specifically. And I think the English Dub here is great too. Like I think the performances are all fine. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, like I wouldn't say I love it. I think I think it's let me down enough that I would say I like it more than I love it. I do want to see it through though, because I think there's enough working that I want to see where it goes. And like it's a short enough game that I'd like to give it a full chance before the end of the year. I think the combat is fun and the combat is also the kind of thing that makes exploring like that's your reason for like poking around is like I just like getting into fights and the more enemies you like ill like if you if you basically kill a bunch of enemies without getting hit, you increase the like quality of drops the enemies have. Yeah. So it is really fun just to like go in the world map and like chain as many. like I've seen people in the discore talk about like having like a hundred chains and like getting all the because all you're not getting XP, you're just getting like Money and magicite. So that is basically how you level up is getting items and stuff. Exactly. And the weapon upgrades are cool because that's where it feels like Timasano's stamp where all their games have some element of like charging up the character. It Sos like an autopath, you can like charge up using BP to like do one attack five times or make another attack way more powerful And in this case, like if you char like I have the bow in the swword, level two versions of the bow in the swword. And if you charge up with either of those, like it zooms in and you do a more powerful? It's so fun. I love that. I love The presentation and the music and the combat is doing quite a bit for me. I think this is the best soundtrack I've heard in a game this year. Like I am so like bowled over by how much I love the music in this game. Yeah, I like the soundtrack. I definitely I think Octopath is hard to top for me in terms of like, I think it's a different composer It's good. I mean, especially in the dungeons, like I love the dungeon themes. Yeah, I think Elliot I would probably be less harsh on if it was like, if this was like a new game from a new team I' never heard of, I think I would be more forgiving of a lot of these pieces. But as it stands, I think it's like a very flawed but fun game that's worth checking out if you're interested in like a different takeZlda. I think That's kind of where I land on it. If you don't mind me going a little bit further in. Sure. Yeah because that had wrap up vibes but I'm not ready. No, I don't want to cut short I day. we should give as much time as possible. I feel like one of the things that I was talking to our friend Pablo about this the other day because I was just talking about playing this game and one of the things that I was saying is I feel like it kind of has The it takes ten hours to get good problem, but not in a way where I think that the game is like bad until it gets good, more so that it's I don't think the game puts a foot forward until much later into the game, which is kind of weird. Like when you start the game, you start with the sword, you can buy the boomerang in a shop And that's basically it as far as your combat options go for a while. You have this shield, which you can use to like block attacks and stuff. But until you have, you know where you and I are, until you have all of the weapons and you have a couple of the fairy powers. and even now, you, we have three of the ages unlocked and I don't know if you've unlocked the compass yet but when you get the compass also The compass allows you to equip different needles, which all like quote unquote point at different things. So like you can get like a cat needle, which points at all the cats that you have on or you can get a weapons needle, which points at like places where you've already been that might have weapon upgrades.ool things like that. I now feel like the game has started gotot past that second encounter with Kfried, who I think that's his name. But anyway, I got past that second encounter and I got all the compass and I have all this stuff and I'm like, I feel like I am now playing the game that the team wanted me to be playing.. And I don't even think I don't think it's like that bad. I just I just see it as like a major pacing issue because I think the game will lose a lot of people before they hit this point because now that I'm here, I think that's where I really turned from like, I think this game is kind of where you were. It was like ye flawed, but I'm enjoying it to like I'm really, really liking it. and that's kind of where I' what I'm talking about when I talk about this like kind of silk songy feel of wanting to explore at all times That's that's where I'm at because of the point that I've hit in the game. I do think it gets more rewarding the more you play it, but it sure does take a lot to get there and you will run into all of our critiques along the way many, many times. I think that's that's one of the things that I could see hypothetically again in a sequel them smoothing out is just this kind of pacing thing Yeah, I'm curious how this will do because it's like it's got a mixed reception on Steam, which is like pretty rough for a launch. Like a lot of it seems to be like specific performance issues on PC. I'm playing it on Steam Deck and I think it's fine. I haven't noticed anything either way. but a lot of the reviews are also more about the game itself and specifically the demo. Like I think the demo is not really helping the game. No, that's the thing. I think the demo is actually the worst four hours of the experience. which is it's the hardest thing about it because especially You know, talking about that person in our D discord who was like, I played the demo for this. Why were you excited about it? The reason we were excited about it was because of that first demo. Yeah the vertical slice. The first demo being, yeah, like a vertical slice that's kind of like remixing some of the stuff that you'd find in the game. Like there was so much interesting stuff in there because they gave you access to, I think like four or five of the weapons. They had a lot of the exploration J just kind of like freely there. I remember I put enough time into the demo that I like found the third sword upgrade or whatever and was like, oh this fucking rocks. And then you go through one of the dungeons, you fight a big boss. There's like there was so much great stuff on display there. And that version of the game that you and I played in that first demo is the version of the game I'm playing now about eight to ten hours in And is not a thing that you will even come remotely close to feeling at any point in the demo that exists right now. Yeah, I did notice that and this is a game that I wanted to read reviews for and a lot of them said a similar thing where like I think it seems that the game just kind of gets better the further in you get So I will probably see it through as well. It's also like on the relative shorter side. Yeah. I rarely put like we're only human. I try to avoid putting like very high expectations on things before I play them. I did in this case, I think that's why I'm a little bit more bummed out than usual. I think there's a part of me that really wants to go to that for Elliott and be like, no, this is worth your time. this is worth checking out. I do think it is worth checking out, but I would say, yeah, I would say I feel somewhere between how I felt about the first Octopath and Triangle strrategy. I would definitely put it above at least so far, this could change as I get further in, but like I like it more than Triangle strrategy. I think I like it a little bit less than the first Octopath ' at least the first Octopath had that like impeccable combat that they just like fully nailed immediately. Yeah. And that was actually the opposite. That was a game that like started off great and got worse as you got further in This is seems to be the opposite, which is obviously preferable. Yeah, that's the thing that you would ideally want, right? is like as the game continues to dole out more stuff, you feel like you can kind of you can kind of express yourself through the game. And that is how I'm feeling now. Yeah, so I think I'm definitely by the sounds of it, I'm definitely landing on a more positive bent than you are on this one I do think, you know, if you're a person who listens to this podcast every week and I trust Brendon more than me. Yeah, I look I've listened to video game podcasts with multiple hosts. There's always one that you tend to agree with more often than not. I think just how how do you feel about Stehven and M's specific tastes We'll tell you a lot about if you should play Elliot or not. We've entered our Siskill and Ebert Sawn era, it seems. Which one of us loves sppawn? Yeah. No, I mean, I'm sure this will come up again, and I will keep playing it for sure. I just There's a lot of thoughts in Elliot's summer, A lot of mixed feelings. A lot of magic sight in the b. Elli June. Elliot Je Now is that wrap up energy? I think that's I think that's wrap up energy. I think we can move on from Elliot. I will probably talk about it again though, especially when I get closer to the end. I'm intrigued by this this new plot in the Age of Magic. I like the age of Magic a lot. I think it's it's more visually distinct. although it is you're right that like Not to keep piling on Elliot, but like outside of the town, which like is really cool in the age of magic. It's like almost like arcane or something. It's a very like magic tech. Once you get further out, like there's less variety. L when you get to like the snowy part of the map, it's kind of just the same in every era. Yeah like if you go to that root lootus engine I'm talking about, that's in the swamp, like the swamp looks the same in all three erows that I have unlocked Yeah, I wonder if they would have been I don't want to like redesign the game they made, but it does feel like this maybe would have worked better with like a more dedicated setting rather than trying to do like five different ar yeah, just two arrows, you know like which have, you know, some kind of back and forth in terms of, you know, influence on one has influence on the other, et cetera. I will also say I think this is one of the best looking HD two D games. I think it works really it kind of shows how many different styles of game you can make in this. It works perfectly for like a top down Zelda kind of game. Yeah. I also hereere's a tinfoil hat theory to end on, which you know is what we all want crave. Do you think that the different eras are a remnant of this at one point being the Chrono Trigger remake? That's been rumored for a while Was this a test to see like how far out should the Chrono tririgger remake be? shouldhould it be an action RPG? shouldhould it be this? And then at one point, it's like, you know what? forget it, just make a different game in this style. I don't know. I mean it might all that's kind of been my overarching theory about Tamasano in general is that everything they've done in some way is pointing them in the direction of a Chrono trigger remake Like you could look at every game that they have made since Octopath Traveler as in some ways being an exploration of different design elements they'll need to make the Prono Trigger remake happen. Yeah, which like I'm curious if and when that will happen and how I'll feel about it. But yeah, I I wonder if that's a piece of this at all. It could very well have just been their idea. The Autopath series is sold very well. I imagine they have like some say in what they take on. So like they did do a decent amount of press for Elliott like right before it came out. So, who knows? Yeah. But that's Elliot. I'm sure it'll come up again. There is o, one more thing. S. we already kind of poked fun at the Hope is always there. Oh my God. ye It's the clearest sign that the writing is not up to snuff, I think.. Yeah. So like in the early game, the princess is like, if you're ever lost, here's like the secret magical words of the kingdom that like only the royals know. Hope is always there. Hope is always there. And there's a point later on where Elliot says that to someone and they're like How did you know that? this is a notch above, have a nice day. I love that this person is like freaked out Yeah that he knows the phrase hope is always there. Yeah I'm so I'm so confused by that. It's so interesting Also like in the age of reconstruction, which is like the sort of the recent past where things are like not going great for humans, the town is called Little Hope. and there's a point where you're doing a psyquest for this blind guy who wants to be an artist. I actually thought was very heartfelt. Yeah. But like he says something and Elliot's like, that sounds like hope to me. You may have a little, but you still got hope. Yeah. There's a blog I forget who' wrote it but there's a blog I sawhere that was like Adventures of Elliot makes the best case for Link remaining Asilent protagonist. I that was the gamepot review Yeah which we can link in the show notes. but it's like I like that. If you've listened to the show, you know that I'm a sucker for like camp and sincerity. And like I think there's a tighter draft of this that I'm like fully on board with. It's just too much We've already said this too much. We should move on. We should move on. All right, we'll take a break and we come back, we'll talk about other video games. There are always games. There are always games. Games are always there. Games are always there. That's the title. Bye bye We have a tiding from the Aher! This one goes like this. It's from Tom, and it's to James. Dear James, I can't believe you're about to be a father. Congratulations to you and Ellen. I deeply cherish you as lifelong friends, I'm so proud of you both. We're all so excited to welcome your little girl into the world in the next week or so. I can't wait to see you grow up and surpass us both in Street Fighter nine one day. I promise I'll listen to King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard one day, your friend and number one tech nine fan ow, hell yeah. Congratulations. Congratulations. Congratulations fighter nine. that's congratulations. That's a great guessestimate of like, okay, probably in age of ten years, That's why you could expect Streetfighter nine. Right. That's the perfect age to get into street fighter. Your kid will be old enough to beat you at at a video game and it' be streetfighter nine by then. Exactly. If you want to get a ting from the aher, you go to shop d thatot into ast that online. Thank you so much for supporting the show. Thank you so much, Be bye. Back to the show. Hello, we're back. He. The age of Elliott is behind us and now we're in the age of well basically basically the nineties. Yeah Yeah. We're the age of Grun. Yeah. The age of Grunge. We've been playing wax heads. We talked about the fact that we were playing wax headads, but now we get to talk about playing wax heads. I'll say I played a demo of this game during Steam Next Fest. I think early was all the Steam Next Fests are blending together at this point. I feel like They happen like ten times a year now. So I think it was maybe two next fests ago. I played a demo for this game and I really enjoyed it. and I was waiting for it to come out. And it came out and got really glowing reviews. And then you mentioned you were playing it, which madebe you want to dip back into the full game. but I'm curious. tellell me how you're feeling Well tell me what wax headads is first and then we can talk about how we're feeling about it. Yeah, I discovered this game just seeing positive posts about it on Blueky. and I liked the character design of it. So I'm like, oh, that seems like something I would enjoy It is I guess you could say it's a visual novel. I know some people have strong feelings about when and where to use the term visual novel as like a catch all. but I think at the very least, it's a dialogue driven, narratively driven game where you work in a record store and basically the game is kind of divided in half of like half of it is you are, you know, behind the cash register And customers come in and they're like, hey, I'm looking for an album that's kind of like this. And then you actually walk around, sort of like a point and click adventure, you walk around the record store and you try to find the record that most matches up with what the customer is asking for. Yeah. The thing just at the top, incredible like fictional musical lore in this game The people who made this game made up like an entire era of music. And like you can tell who the real world's counterparts kind of are. But like every vinyl is not only like interesting art and like a whole track list, but there'll be like a little history about that band. Yeah. I actually think that's my favorite piece of the whole game. I agree. I think that's where They really show off their love of music and their love of music history. And I think what's brilliant is that you also get like you learn about the musicians behind the albums over the course of the game as well. Like I just had a moment. I'm like about halfway through, I think. It's surprisingly long. It's like a ten hour game from what I've seen. and I'm like about halfway through. So a customer came in was like, Hey, I thought you guys supported local artists. like our album was on the shelf for like a week. what the hell So it's like funuff like that. Anyway, the game is like you finding the best album to recommend to a customer. And then after you do that a few times, it then cuts to like the more scripted narrative beat of that chapter. And the game is very cutely divided into like tracklists and like sides of the album. Yeah. I'm really enjoying it. think I think this game is coming from a very sincere place similar to Elliot. And it's about sort of like the balancing act of like surviving as an adult and you know, needing a job and all that, but also the ambition of being a musician and all the bullshit that comes with that. So the owner of the record store is this aging musician who was like In a sort of like Verua Salt esque band in the nineties and was like this big star. get like more dramatic, my bloody Valentine vibes. Yeah, mayaybe that's a better comparison Yeah. But like in this really popular band in the past and everyone else in that band is kind of like sold out and like is doing better than her and she's sort of hanging on to this struggling record store I think that and the main theme with the game seems to be like, you know, never giving up on your passion despite kind of what happens around you. like there's also like an in game version of like pitchfork where this critic is like always roasting albums. Like I love There's like an Anthony Fantano, adjacentes guy who keeps showing it. There's like a you can look at your phone in the game. there's bunch of different apps and there's a social media feed. And there's one that like very conspicuously looks like somebody wearing a flannel reviewing an album also Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious how you feel so far since I feel like this is more relevant to your past experience in some ways, like I'm curious if the game is reson with I was in my bloody Valentine and now I own a record. so I didn't want to spoil it. No, but it's like as a musician, you know, as someone who was like Yeah, you know, in a band for a long time and takaking that very seriously and then rediscovering your passion for music later. you know, I'm just curious like howre how you're enjoying it and also like if you find it relatable in any way. Yeah. there's a lot yeah, there's a lot to talk about there. I guess quick background because I haven't talked about this in a long time probably. I was in college very briefly. I was there for six months and then I dropped out of college to join a b And we had a house and we all lived together and we like made music and made albums and toured around the country and stuff like that and tried to like make it, you know? I knew the guys in that band because my high school band had opened for them weirdly enough. So that was kind of why they reached out to me. They were like, we need a bassist. Do you know how to play bass? I was like, No, I can learn and then I learn how to play bass. I play rock band a few times. Yeah exactly So anyway, I was in that band for about two years. We all lived together. We I don't mind saying we got on we were at the precipice of signing to a major label for like a multi album deal and then very dramatically broke up on stage. It was I didn't know that part It was nuts. That's why I' never told you that story. I knew you broke up for personersal reasons amongst the band.. I didn't know it was on stage don't we don't have to li this is not This is not for the podcast but I should tell you the story sometimes. Yeah please much on. yeah. But anyway, point being, like it was like two very, very very like probably the most focused years I've ever had in terms of like pursuing a creative project like that. becausecause the other guys in my band, they were all music business and music double majors. So their whole thing was like, we are studying music and we are studying how to sell our music. And at the time it was like we were basically in the pocket of what people were listening to and what people wanted to be listening to and what was like about as marketable as possible Which I think, you know is a thing that a lot of people would probably scoff at and look down on. and for us was like, this is very specifically how we're going to survive doing this if we want to. you know. And it wasn't like we were making music that we disliked just because we knew it would make money. L we all genuinely liked the music and we liked our influences and stuff like that. but there was a A very specific choice to make that style of music because we also knew like this is how you play fucking arenas and stuff. like this is how you sell out to like huge crowds and stuff. And it was a it was a wild experience, honestly. I mean, it was extremely focused. We rehearsed every single day seven days a week for at least three to five hours Yeah like unbelievably, you know, and some of those days were divied up between like this is for touring, this is for writing music, this is for recording music, this is et ccetera, et ccetera. But like we were always working on stuff for the band at all times, basically. So it wass really intense. Point being, I think the thing that wax headads gets right about what that experience is like is The thing that I think a lot of people will also find off putting about wax headads is the almost delusional level of earnestness you need to have about your own craft to succeed. And I don't think this is just true of music. I think anybody that you talk to who wants to like make a living in a creative field needs to have some degree of this in their head or else they would probably stop doing it. If you're going purely off of numbers, it's like Like I remember even like this is, you know not not quite like making a living level dream, but like when I was more involved in like Chicago improv, I remember being, you know I went through IO, which is like one of the big comedy theaters here, or at least it was back this is literally ten years ago at this point. A lot has changed. Yeah, yeah. It's like a pizza place now or something Like I also I really loved doing improv, but I wasn't like trying to make it as an improvisor ' like what does that even mean? Like, you know, the best case scenario you're doing like zipzaps up on a cruise ship is like S to death in terms of long term fears of mine. But I remember like it was so fun to being new to a city and meeting people and wanting to get involved. At that time I was more involved in just the performing arts in general Yeah. And obviously my interests have changed a bit, but I do think there's always like a kernel of like your identity as an artist regardless of the thing you're doing You know, I think doing this show weirdly has kind of been a lot of different worlds colliding, which has been a lot of fun. Yeah. you know, I don't think it's like a performance per se, but it is it scratches a similar itch to what I got out of like doing improv with friends.. So anyway, like I remember being in class and at that point I had been doing it for a few years and like my graduating class at IO was, I think around seventy people And of those seventy people, like at least twenty were like excellent, like very talented comedians, very good improv, could easily be in like a mainstage second city ensemble and stand out. And then I was told at one point that seven people would be on a team. So just like when you're given those numbers, you're like There are way more people than there are positions. and especially now when it's like even just making money like at all from the thing you're doing, which is why very few people pursue any of this stuff. L we did not start into the eighther because we're like, we're going to make it big on Patreon. That was never like. That just sort of ended up happening. it's not a humble brag. just sort of like Basically the logistics of like the business of any art, at least for me, it has come from a place of like, I want to be doing this as much as possible and get better at this thing as much as possible. And in order to do that, I either need to be making money elsewhere or it needs to be bringing in money to support my quest of doing this. Right Yeah. And that's kind of what I think a lot of the characters are going through in this game. Yeah at varying ages, which I appreciate. I like how it's like You have some people in their forties who are like still doing this either for fun or out of necessity and then they're younger people who are like figuring out that balance. So yeah,ah I agree in that in that sense for sure. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that idea th like kind of and I don't mean this in a derogatory way at all, but like the delusion you kind of need, I think to run headf into a creative pursuit like that. Yeah is something that this game It does a very good job of capturing, but you're right. It's like it extends out to so many other creative pursuits. I mean, that's the thing. you know at this point because I've been doing this for long enough and also know Percy has been doing it long enough. L we meet a lot of other YouTubers also. and like they all kind of share that like all the ones who are like doing it full time all kind of share that same sense of like, yeah, I just gott to keep doing it fine you know, which is like yeah largely not true to be clear. in the aggregate, most people who try to do that probably will not succeed at it for some reason here or there. But you kind of just need to keep telling yourself, like, yeah, it'll be fine. I would also add though that like that is true, but also most people give up I think no, I think that's when I say like for some reason or another, that is one of the reasons is like you'll burn yourself out or like, you know you won't get the numbers you want on your first video and then that'll be it forever. Like ye. Like when I think of my friends, like I have a friend who I did stand up with like in college and she's now like a huge comedian and she's been doing this like Thanklessly for fifteen years Yeah up until very recently Yeah, you know, and like you need to love it that much to do it for that life. That's always the story too you know, like that's I think the most interesting thing is like almost every single almost every single like artist that you like in some way, shape or form, like you probably weren't there at the beginning of their journey. You know, when they're like Huge You know, the one that I always think about actually is Charlie XCX. like Brat Summer happened and that was, I think, a big moment for a lot of people like learning who Charlie XCX was and like kind of signing on to her particular brand of pop. But she I mean, she's been around since the Myyspace era. Like she was posting stuff when she was like fourteen on Myyspace and has not stopped since then Yeah And she's, I think in her thirties, all I think she's like about our age. like Yeah, She's been making music that whole time. Yeah, you know, and it took until the point where Brat came out for that to be like, oh, that was the moment for her. But then you have a band I don't this is always the example that sticks out of my head. You have the band like the Fratelles, if if you remember the fratellies from like the early two thousands or like kind of mid two thousands. My first thought is burnout Paradise. I think they' they were ye Yeah, they were in the Yeah, they were in the Burnout Paradise entraack Gaming. They did gaming. They were in an iPod commercial, which was like kind of one of the one of the big moments for them. Wow But the thing about the Ferteles is so interesting is like they played One I think between one and three shows ever before signing to a major label, taking the album that they were planning on releasing independently and then releasing that, I think on parlophone or a label like that of that scale and then immediately getting that Apple ad spot and then blowing up to being like a huge like globally touring band And that never happens. Like that's right That is literally winning the lottery for being a musician. And I do think people are kind of taught to think that that's the path. Yes whereere it's like one day a deus six Machina comes in and you your' fing One day Luren Michels will be sitt in the audience while you're doing your stand upps set and then you're on SNL, right? Yeah. and mean that's That's why I think I have if you notice a mixed tone in my voice about improv is like all those theaters would show you a picture of Tina Fe and go like, please give us two thousand dollars and you'll be just like her. And it's you're gonna to be Tina Feay. Yeah. There are people who were in my class and around my class, like a year or two below that are now like huge comedians and all of them were doing their own thing. Like they weren't just like on a herod team and someone showed up. L they were already producing a lot of their own work. In some cases, one of them was like straight up rejected by the entire system and it's just so cool to see them now be huge. Yeah. These are not people I know that well directly, but like it's just cool to like, oh my God, I know that person. Like I was at like a weird open mike at a coffee store with them. I think to a similar degree. L when I was in the band, there was it was the North Jersey music scene was like really vibrant at the time. And there was this like collective of bands in the North Jersey music scene and we would all meet up all the time. Like we would all like we would rent out like a big space and we would like have a lunch and like could just kind of talk about what we were doing to you know, sign each other for like opening acts for other shows and stuff and like, oh, do you want to come on tour with et cetera, et And there were a bunch of bands that were like big at the time, and then there were the really tiny bands that were like just trying to kind of you know, get their foot in the door or whatever. And of all of, I would say there's probably like forty or fifty bands in the New Jersey music scene that would like show up at those meetings every couple months when we had them One of them made it. one. It was the front bottoms, in case you're wondering. And even them like I don't even know where they're at at this point, but I remember like they they just toured relentlessly for like ten years and then became a huge band and like started playing festivals and like making money on it. But I mean, not to blow up their spot, but like I remember I think they were still working at a supermarket, like in between touring, you know, like Yeah that's just kind of the the vibe The reality. Anway, Wax headads is really good. No, I was going to tie back but I just want part. like I think that's where the delusion comes in where it's like you have to be comfortable giving something up. Yes in that interimom. Yeah. I do think like what I'm enjoying about Wax headads is that it's raising all these questions. You know, it it's raising all of these, you know, the like it gets us gushing about different parts of our lives, you know, and yeah, its I think that yeah, that's where the sincerity, I think comes through. I think my main concern going into this game was that I was gonna try too hard to be cool. because I feel like, you know, that's like I just look at the cover of this. Yeah. And also the pitch of it being a cozy punk life cozy punk. Yeah, that also was set off some learn bills Oh boy, is is gonna be don't fuck your selfie core. But I actually I think it's the opposite. I think it's very comfortable being kind of lame. I think it's like Yeah, you know it's showing We're not being lame, but it's like, I know what you mean. A lot of the characters are people who are like, I don't care if I look foolish doing this in my forties. I'm going to keep doing it because I love it That's also the thing is like continuing to pursue your craft doesn't necessarily mean that you've like made it or it's making money. If you love doing it, that is really all that matter. That should be the driving force over. Yeah. I do think we would keep doing this show even if we didn't have the audience we do. Yeah. You know, Maybe would have ended like year five I think we would probably be doing something together aboutout video gameses if we continue to have joy and an interest in that. So anyway, on that level, I think Waxays is really working. I do think it's like I think it's a little corny. I think that like I hate saying that because I think it's very sincere. And I think we should all be comfortable being cornier than you know, operating out of fear of being cringed. To be cringe is to be free Yes, when I say corny, I don't mean the sentiment. I just mean like the style of dialogue. It's like the characters are a little bit too self aware. Not in a like, is he right behind me way, but just in like like there's a point where that forty year old punk who's like kind of like a lovable like oaf. L he he's not dumb, but he's like kind of just like He's very direct and he's very like emotional. He's almost like a Homer Simpson kind of character in that way. Yeah. Like if Homer Simpson was a punk is kind of his vibe. And at one point he has a line where someone a young his younger coworker is like, hey, like why do you do this? Like your band's not going to go anywhere, likeike you're too old for this to be successful in a way that you maybe wanted it to be in the past Why do you keep playing? And he's like, onlyn you have the answer for that. And I'm just like, I get that that's the message, but I feel like he could have said it in a way that was more in character unless like the subtext spoken out loud. Yeah. And I feel like this game being set in a store, I almost wish there was more conflict. Everyone is like a little bit too a master of their own emotions. And I feel like in a retail environment, there's a lot like I wish it was a little bit more like high fidelity where it's like there was more tension in the. I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. because even if you I've had a couple instances with customers where I have gotten the selection for them as wrong as humanly possible. Yeah. And you know, itll like it'll show the word sad and huge letters on the screen and stuff. And even then they're like, oh, well, thanks for trying. So I think like overall, I think I'm interested in where the story is going. I do think it loses me a bit too with like the very cartoonish villains. Like I kind of wish there was a little bit more nuance The like every now and then, like the landlord will come by or like the other like older members of the owner's band and they'll be like, L you have no money and you suck. Seea. And's its a little bit obvious in a way that I feel like it would be, I don't know. I think that scenario is like, we already know the status difference I feel like we could explore that in a more interesting way. but it works as like these are enemies in a video game. You know, I don't know if you had thoughts on that at all. No, yeah, ye I think you're right on the money. Like the feeling that I have about it is more just like it it's a because it's going for the cozy thing, conflict has to be cartoonian over the top I think to still fall into that genre descriptor. I don't mind it that much. The thing that I'm the most interested in still is the relationship between the owner and her sister. Yeah. That feels the most real to me of like everything that's happened in the game. And that's the thing they're kind of teasing like that we haven't had a lot of moments where they're like at the store at the same time Yeah It's the more overarching, I think narrative of what's going on there. But I like that stuff a lot. And then as you're saying, everything else is a little bit more just like kind of cartoon villain. even the I guess like the agent for Morgan's sister showing up. Yeah you know, feels like kind of a quint. He has he says like money talks. and I'm like, I don't think anyone said that since the Great Depression even I say that on the show all the time as it did. That's true. We're really into saying money talks or like keep it snappy Yeah Cut to the chase. Yeah very funny. that's not like, yeah, I think overall, I'm enjoying the story and I definitely want to see like how it wraps up. I want to see like what the ending of this is. Yeah. The moment to moment gameplay is interesting in that like I really love learning about these albums and the history of the bands The customers sometimes like basically the way it works is like none of the customers know what they're looking for, or they're like they have very vague ideas of what they want, which is what makes it I said this before because I'm working on sort of a similarly framed game where like you're working in a cafe. And so what I've learned in just my limited time doing that is that it's very difficult to gamify a customer's order And you see this in other games. I also really like like cooffee talkal and Valhalla and Tavern talkal, I think it's another one. Games where like you're working a day job, but the focus is talking to the characters. So the customer's order in order for that to be gamified, has to kind of be like wrong or vague for you to figure out what they want R It's hard to make that fun. What's cool where the game really comes together is like when you as an employee here have walked around enough that you know exactly where that album is and like you can kind of infer like, oh, you might like this. I think it works the best when the customers have some idea of what they want and you can actually recommend things in a way that like an employee would. Yes. The other half of it is it gets to talking about all of the things that I've experienced in my life. It gets to when I used to work at Blockbuster, specifically the last profitable blockbuster in New Jersey, the reason we were profitable was because we broke all of the rules of what Blockbuster basically like mandated we did as employees and spent a lot of time talking to customers and recommending movies to customers, which surprise surprised made them want to come back and spend money And that was like one of my favorite jobs very briefly, even though I technically was only there for like, I think six to eight months, maybe total. I really loved the experience of like having regulars and recommending movies based on what they had rented and what they liked and disliked. And we were encouraged by our manager to rent ten movies a week And watch them all every single week so we could like get a sense for what was on the shelves and just be like, I don't know, just better at recommending things. And I feel like when you get to that point in this game is really when it starts to work better from a gameplay perspective. because in the beginning it's like you have I think in the beginning of the game, there are like seven records total and they're like, I want this album. Yes. And then you' like, okay, here it is. Yeah. that's that's the that's the challenge is like If it's just in order, it literally is just what the job is, which isn't fun, right? It just like, okay, here's what you bought. But then if it gets too vague of like, oh, I think it rhymed with Clark and like like there's there's there's more than one case where like they get the name wrong and you're supposed to like there are often cases in wax headads where I get the album right and I don't really know why. I'm just like I made my best guess. I'm glad it worked out, but like I don't feel like I solved the puzzle in a way that I think they want me to feeles. You know. I think honestly like the, I mean, I'm trying to figure this out for myself, but I think like I think because the focus is dialogue and getting to know people, I think I would have preferred if the customers were more of that personal interaction and then the album is like the final test where it's like, okay, like with what you've learned about this character, what do you think they would like? Yeah. you know Yeah the alternative I think it's interesting what this game is trying to hone in on because the other game that really comes to mind when I've been playing this is Tiny Bookshop, which was from last year. Yeah yeah. And what Tiny Bookshop does, which I think was really smart in terms of like a scoping thing for this kind of game, just a quick refresher, Tiny Bookshop is a game where you have a tiny bookshop that's attached to your car and you drive it around to different points in this kind of like, I would say a coastal Massachusetts town and you set up in these different parts of the town and you just kind of sell books from a morning to night shift. And most of the game is just customers coming in being like, I want a book on travel and then they'll say that you have a book on travel on your shelf and they'll Just buy it from you. Occasionally, a customer will come in and be like, I have a very specific idea for the kind of book that I want. And then that's when you get to do the kind of wax head style. I'm going to look at what I have on my shelf today and I'm going to recommend stuff. It is worth mentioning there's kind of an in between phase where you're restocking your shelf and you're deciding what books on the shelf. So cool that's kind where it differs from wax headads here But I think the smartest thing about Tiny Bookshop, again, in terms of the scoping, is that those people who are coming in and asking for very specific books frequently aren't like named characters. You don't need to know a lot about them. They'll just come in and say like, I've really enjoyed the adventures of Sherlock Holmes. I would like something that's similar to that. Do you have anything for me? please and thank you. And then you could just look at your shelf and see, like, oh, well, there's a follow up it or Arthur Conan Doyle wrote I could just I have that on the shelf. I could just give that to them. easy. The more interesting and nuanced stuff comes from named characters who are part of the community because so much of that game is about finding your place in community. So it would be the equivalent of if you were really only having conversations with the other employees in the record store and then all of the customers who came in like weren't really like fully fleshed out characters. They were just that would be the part where you're just quote unquote doing the job as you were saying. Yeah I think that that approach in Tiny Bookshop probably appeals to me more because it makes the in between sequences like when you get to different cutscenes in that game and you end, you know When you end the summer season and like everyone in the community that you've made friends with decides to like go have a bonfire on the beach and write down all of their wishes on a piece of paper and throw it into the bonfire, like it's actually a surprisingly really touching sequence. Whereas in this game, I feel like there's so much kind of like there's so many wacky characters showing up at all times that occasionally I kind of lose sight of what the overarching I'm supposed be taking away from the game is, which does come more into focus the further in you get. Yeah. But I do think that's the thing that you're probably bumping up against that I'm also bumping up against as well. It's like almost doing too much. Yeah, there's one customer that comes in who's like a really overworked dad who's like in a costume and he's holding a bunch of different things. And he goes like, I just need an album that you think I would really like Yeah And was like, I don't know who you are. So on his outfit, I saw like brick doog Oh maybe he wants the brrick doog album. Yeah. And he was like, I can see why you thought this, but I actually don't like them that much. And I got on okay. I'm like, what? Yeah? I have no clue Yeah what I was supposed to do. L maybe on one and that's the thing. It's like when they get that specific, you have to like really comb through the like crritical reviews of the album. and that's a level of busywork that kind of gets tedious. Yeah. where like I feel like I' have to basically read through like, I don't know, don I don't know if there's a clean fix here because I think their instinct was right in that they wanted to like throw you curveballs. but I feel like they maybe start throwing them too soon and too often before I have a fundamental knowledge of the albums for sale. Yeah, I find it's really just on a customer to customer basis for me. likeike some of them just work better than others. Like one of the early ones that really stuck out to me was this like kind of metal head guy who comes in just not wearing a shirt Yeah And he's like, I want something raw. Yeah, he Yeah he just tell yeah, he's like something like that. I just want something raw. and that's basically all you get from him. And you have to infer based on his tattoos what he would like, which is fun. I appreciated that. you know, because I was sitting there I was like, okay, well, they've given me nothing in terms of what he likes. So So there's there's gott to be something else about this interaction that's going to tell me what he's into. And then once you start kind of breaking down what he has tattooed on his body, you're like, oh I think he would like this album by this person. and that's or they'll that works for me There'll be someone who's like, man, screw this supergroup. Like they're all sellouts. I missed the old stuff. And then it's like, oh, wait, so I know the suupergroup album. Yes. And if I read their history, I can see what bands they're composed of and I can give them like the EP. Yes that like launch that band's career. So there is like they're on the right track. I just think you're right. It varies customer to customer. But overall, I'm having a good time. It's really like comforting. is For lack of a better word cozy. Yeah. although I do think that holds back some of the storytelling in my opinion, where I think like I think that like I said this before, but for a game to feel truly cozy and not Saccharin, there needs to be some element of danger in my opinion. You know I think like strange horticulture comes to mind in all ways right now That's a great way of gamifying a customer ordering something because you kind of had like when you're just given like little trinkets to mess with, it's already more fun, which again, the vinyls are a joy to flip through. L they're really intricately made and really cool. But like someone' saying, I want a plant that does this. Okay, I need to look through my like book of plants and read up on that and see what they do and where they grow and then I can just hand it to them. it doesn't need to be that complicated. I think sometimes like the simpler, the better with the stuff. Yeah. And that game also has this like very cozy vibe, but there's something kind of creepy about it too, which I think makes me feel cozier by extension. Yeah.be I'm just disturbed. it's always just raining also. Yeah. I think I wanted it to be kind of rainy and haunted, you know Yeah Strange partartic culture, good video games, strange aniquities, great sequel. W wouldould recommend both of those as well. but wax headads I am enjoying a lot. Yeah, I would also recommend it. I think it's like it's definitely about something important and it's coming from a really sincere place. And I love the music and the art style. I specifically like the song that plays by default. You do unlock other like jukebox tracks that are like songs from the fictional bands that I find more hit or miss, but the songs that just kind of play as like the background noise are really good. Yeah. just be clear, it's amazing they did it though. Yeah, it's what that's what I mean about the like the fictional history of music being the starring element here. Yeah that they like made all these songs. like they're all like believable for the bands they're trying to capture. you know U it was just kind of funny. like like they make such a big deal out of Brick doog. And then I was like, that's Brick doog. I don't like Brick doog that much But' like with solo stuff. Yeah, I think I do. So yeah, that's the fun thing is between chapters, there's like like a talk show with all the big musicians.'s that's I meant to mention that earlier. That is actually, I think my favorite element of the game is as you were saying, like the lore that connects all of these bands together and watching all of that stuff change in real time. becausecause I think it's even between one of the earlier chapters like, there's that band Brick Dog, The lead singer leaves. and then by the time you have another shift, he's released a new album and Brick Dog has like turned into this supergroup with another band called Ego that's called Brick Ego And like they both have competing albums out on the same day. And like that that stuff is my favorite stuff this game. Like I just I just want to hear more about the like fictional lore of this. I like the other characters. I like the other employees. like I think it all works. but I think the reason that Morgan as the owner is working for me the best of all of the characters in the game is also because she is part of this like overarching lore of music in this world that they've created. And she also is like not ready to deal with her shit yet in a way that's interesting. Yeah.. I feel like everyone else has like understood their arc as it's happening. Yes. And one other thing I'll say is I kind of wish the The character you're playing as is like beyond a blank slate. L they acknowledge you being there and you have dialogue choices, but I feel like I have no idea like who I am in this world at all. And I think that that's intentional because I think it might be confusing to have like another authored character like in the middle of this story. But they're still giving you dialogue options and stuff, which kind of has kind of has the fire emblem Yeah or yeah problem in some ways. Yeah, that's what I mean. I feel like when I am given dialogue choices, it's like very I don't feel like it's impactful either for don I don't need to a choice driven narrative, but I feel like I'm also not even getting like who I am You're just the new kid. I'm just the new kid, which I think is fine. Like's sort of like something I noticed while playing. Yeah. But it's cool. I would recommend. I think it's an awesome time. It's very it's a great like wind down game to play like after a sweaty session of Mina or Elliot can wind down to wax heads. And ye, also it's like very upfront about like being against AI in music and art in a way that I really appreciate. It's cool to see that like just unambiguously like fuck AI in a story. So I appreciate that. specially considering it's about reatity and the importance of it. like the importance of creativity even when it doesn't work out and doesn't make money, you know. because so much one of the most damaging things about AI is just like philosophically, that it sees art purely for profit and that the person behind it doesn't matter. Yeah. you know. So I'm glad that that's like the main target of this game.. abbove all else. Yeah What are you playing it on? Steam Deck? It's a great handheld experience.. I'm also playing it on well, my thing, but yes. handld it. Yeah. Yeah. reallyally good. I haven't I haven't tried it on any of my Android handhelds. I'm wondering that would work. but I have seen that people said that this game is great on Switch as well. It's also a good summer game. I feel like it's sum vibe. Summer game's done slow. Yeah. The main song that plays in the background reminds me of like a mannein pussy song has that sort of like production value too, whichich they're one of my favorite bands. so' immediately kind of smithed. Yeah, it's cool. I definitely will see it through before the year is over. An another game. I've finishing a lot ofuff lately. more on that in the next segment. Yeah. but let's take a break and then we'll get there. Sounds good. Bywax heads. See ya Brendon, Hello. I have big news. Tell me about it. I last night actually, I guess technically today, I texted you like two in the morning. I'd be Mina, and I seent you a screenshot of the credits. But I finished Mina The Hollower. Thank you, thank you. I know.. I just want I'm not gonna to spoil anything, but I want to give an update now that I've seen it through. It's been fun. We like accidentally did a little three part arc with Mina andw like we both talked about it When it came out and then further in and now that I'm done. And it's an interesting game to talk about alongside Elliot specifically because Elliot is a game that we're like largely enjoying but mixed on a lot of pieces of it, but like want to see through and see how it pulls it off. And I feel like Mina was also kind of an experience where like I was definitely enjoying it a lot from Go, but there were things about it that like gave me pause and then sort of halfway through, I ended up just like fully locking in and I couldn't really put it down until it was over. Cool. whichich is why I think it's important to like that's why I always feel the need to give games a certain amount of time. I it could be a profoundly different experience further in. Yeah, especially for RPGs. I'm curious before I get into my overall experience, have you gone any further into Mina? I haven't. No. I've been kind of sidetracked by other stuff, like Elliot. So I haven't gotten back to it, but I would like to and I plan on it. Yeah. It's really great. So now that I finished it, I can safely say that I love Mina. I think it's an incredible game. I think a lot of the critiques we had from the beginning remain. but I just think the whole thing gets better and better that it sort of drowns out that stuff. L I think now that I've seen the whole thing, I think the main critique I have is the readability of certain things. L that issue with verticality because it's a top down for those whot know, Mina is a top down a retro looking like it's pulling from like Game Boy color specifically. So you have this sort of top down sort of isometric view, but it's also like an action platform RPG. So like it is very important reading like the height of platforms, the height of flying enemies, and it varies on how easy it is to read that. And it's also a very difficult game So there are some moments where like all those things come to a head and it's like, I actually don't know what you want me to do. Yeah. I was thinking about like Shovel Knight as a clear counter here, the Yacht Club Games other big franchise. like Shovel Knight's a fairly difficult platformer, but you know, it's also a side scrolling two D platformer. So you kind of have the thing where like you go to the next part of the stage and you can see, o, okay, so I need to get here. hereere are the obstacles. hereere's what I think the game wants me to do. and then you do your best to do that. I think also like Celeste, where like the Bid specifically are these like super hard like variants of the levels. There are moments where you go like, I actually have no clue what they want me to do. Yes. And the funniest thing about that is like eventually don and you Oh my God, they want me to do that. And then you have to spend the next forty five minutes trying to do that. And the minute you think you got it, there's like a little twist. It's like so devilishly designed in the best way. a game that Celeste is an all timimer. Sos you know, Mina is not strictly a platformer the way Shovel Knight and Celeste are, so perhaps it's an unfair comparison The most I died was like the bosses to me are significantly easier than any of the like extreme platforming sequences. There's one near the end where you're literally in the dark on ice with lightning. I was like, I actually don't know like what you want from me here. It just feels I kind of just like ended up tanking my way through it with like a bunch of different trinkets But I didn't have that feeling of like, oh, I did. I didn't have the. Yeah. Now those aren't common, but they do happen throughout the game. That said, going back to our conversation about like exploration and discovery, this game is maybe like the most rewarding game to like literally dig into the corners of. like they so perfectly nailed the feeling of like finding secrets Fing items likeike whenever something is annoying to deal with, it's worth it. Like you will get the best trinket in the game. By the end of the game, had I maxed out my stats and I had the ability to wear six trinkets. And like some trinkets like completely transformed my experience with the game. And I think everyone has had that experience.an Can you just give me a for instance of one of them? And if you don't wantan to know anything, dear listener, maybe just skip ahead fifteen seconds, but can you just tell me one of them? Because I'm curious I've heard this a lot from people about the trinkets. I haven't found any that have been like transformative in that way. Yeah, so I think the ones that I suck to for the bulk of the game, two that just make it significantly easier. One is called, I think the prrotospark, which gives you a death defiance. So when you die, it activates once and zaps you back to life and it kind of brings you back at like half health That came into use the most when I was doing these hard, I mean, helped in boss fights for sure because it gives you like another chance. but I found it activated the most in platforming because just whenever you fall down, it takes a little bit of damage. Another one that really help with platforming is it's like a I think it's it looks like a lifesaver like on a ship like the kind of tube that has it so when you fall off an edge, you bounce once, giving you another chance to like get back. Oh, nice. That is wildly helpful. There's another one that makes potions faster to drink and there's another one that makes it so you automatically use a potion whenever you can. Like whenever you have enough plasma So there's some that are basically the equivalent of like easier modifiers, which just makes the journey easier. Yeah. But then there are some where it's like whenever you burrow, you make a pool of acid. L wherever you go, there's like acid that will do damage over time to enemies. There's another one that makes it so you can stay underground for way longer. Oh. So there are these like builds you can like, oh, wait, I'm going gonna do like I have one for potions where I have one trinket that lets me have two more vials than usual, which are the healing potions. And then I have one that makes it faster to drink. And then I have another one where whenever I drink a potion missiles fire out to like the nearest enemy and when it does damage, I get way more plasma So like you can have trinkets that just generally help in any scenario, or you can have ones that are like hyper specific. There's one where whenever you kill an enemy, a fly rotates around you, there's one wherever you take damage a little red fly appears and boosts your damage and attack speed. There are some that like are kind of trade offffs where like you do way more damage but take more damage. like it really starts to feel like almost like binding of Isaac S in that way. There's another one I have which I got in September where whenever you heal or whenever you do damage, there's a chance you get like electrified and then your next hit does like a giant lightning bolt of damage All this stuff really incentivizes exploration and it really opens up the possibilities of not only how easy or hard the experience is, but like how you play the game. Eespecially considering how different all the weapons are. by the end, I had every weapon unlocked and I upgraded all of them except for the hammer. I primarily used the whip and the gun And the gun works were like if you hit with you can have up to eight bullets stored and whenever you attack with the melee swipe, which is basically like the arrc of Link's sword, but it's like a Samus armbuster kind of thing, you regain a bullet and then you can fire them. And what's amazing is that like you can fire them so quickly that if you have a trinket that builds up plasma, you can get like a shit ton of plasma, like a few hits Like for the final boss, I really relied on that like faster potion trinket and like getting more plasma. So like it's just exciting in a way that I think is generating a lot of fun conversation about this game. Not to mention there's a very rich new game plus that like raises the level cap and adds a lot of variety to the game And seems to be like when I did New Game pllus, I just started, I haven't done anything. I just wanted to like get the save file. But like it's New Game pllus plus one. So it seems like you can actually add more you can go through the game multiple times. That's the good st. I wouldn't be surprised if there there ends up being a very rich like speedrun community for this game or like just talks about builds and I think they have a very rich foundation to make if they want to do a similar thing that they did with Shovel Knight, making expansions in this world or making little spino games like Amina Rogue lightight would be Pfect. You already have all the ingredients for that.ight Like you walk into a room, you get a random trinket. Okay, I'm gonna make this on Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised to see DLC that like just adds a rogue like section to the game kind of similar to what they did with Rurnnal. Yeah. But I think I mean, the point of the game where I went from liking it to loving it was September The order of dungeons I did, pretty much every dungeon after that was like just such a cool and creative place and just so fun to be in. Even when verticality was weird or it was like hard to parse, like I just enjoyed the act of whenever you go to a new place, you get this shot of Mina, like this illustration of Mina in that place. Yeah. It's awesome. And like my three favorites by far were there's September of course, which is like this kind of over the garden wall place And then there's a version of Jabu Jabu's belly where you're like inside this like weird sea beast on the shore. And then there's another one that will likely be the final one you do before the like scripted final dungeon, where you'll notice at the game that you might see people walking into mirrors and you can any time go into any of the mirrors if you know how to do it And there's a whole dungeon in this mirror world, but you have to go to the four corners of the map to like unlock the mirror there to then proceed to like the main kind of astral rainbow road place. It feels a lot like the Yoshi worlds in Mario Super Mario Worlds. It's just so gripping and so well paced. Like I finished this game just under thirty hours and I feel like At a certain point, once I had a strong enough build, anyt timee I sat down to play it, I would knock out another dungeon. And I just felt like so good about that order. It really is an amazing game. you know, even though I think it's trying to do a lot and I think there are places where it maybe is like overestimating the players' ability to like understand what's expected of them in terms of the platforming Lightning in the dark ice level I mentioned. It really doesn't get in the way of the bulk of the experience. And I found narratively that the game really gets interesting in its final moments. L I think you're going to really love the ending of this game. Okay. It has something to say beyond what the bulk of the game is exploring. the bulk of the narrative is really just like The letters you get after each dungeon Other than just what you're soaking in as you're exploring, but my advice to you is if you go back to this, is invest in the Hollowers' Guild as early as possible. I unlocked that fairly late and there are upgrades in there where you can upgrade your underlab to like have a map and have like an item that like lights up when you're near collectibles. It's kind of like the Elliott pins you were mentioning. there's so much cool stuff you can do as well as like customizing the appearance of your underlab that like I found that about halfway through. and I'm like, man, I wish I found this like first because there it is in my opinion, one of one of the most important things to invest in for your overall enjoyment of the game. Okay Yeah noted. But anyway, am I am a mean ahead at this point and I'm excited to see How you feel the further you get into it. Yeah. Yeahah, me too. I'm excited to get back to it. I like it a lot. I gotta play more Elliot. Yeah. Yeah, I think I think that also not to dunk on Elliot more, but like I think because they're both going after Zelda, it was kind of striking to me to flip between the games and to see frankly what a better job Mina is doing at like the exploration Yeah. I'm sure that didn't help. But they're also very different. L I feel like Ma Mina's also pulling from way more, you know, like for better and for worse, Mina is like kind of this maximalist design philosophy, whereereas Elliot is like really like the pitch of like what if Square Eix did Zelda is like kind of exactly what it is. And it's kind of pulling from like three things at most. Yeah, whichich I think is also a good move. It just I think there's more The exploration is certainly more compelling in Mina, in my opinion. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, it's great. I would recommend getting further into it if you can, but I'm really happy I saw it through. I'm trying to finish some things in my backlog as we get closer to PlayStation prerep. know Blade Chronicles O ones, you know Blade Chronicles right, That's next. And also fire emmblem looming in the distance in September. I'm actually so grateful We're doing PS one before that. So I feel like it it would be too distracting. Yeah Absolutely. What else? Oh yeah, Starfox is this week? I am Delta Rune chapter five Delta pumped about. Yeah I think I might wait on I'm really embracing my inner c skull today, but I think I might wait on reviews for Star Fox, but Delta Rune chapter five I'm going to be there at day one pp for that shout out. Yeah. shout out are you definitely going to check out Starfo? I'm definitely to get Starfox. Yeah. A youre excited about it?. I love that demo. I really had a good time with it. Yeah, I think I'd se more information, but I'll leave my I've already said how I feel about it, okay? Leave it on the table Shall we wrap up? I think we should. I feel like my stomach is revolting. Yeah, I noticed a drop in energy. so I just got so hungry I me gush about me and I really took. I don't know I don't know what it was. Suddenly Yeah, it's good in the ending right Maximus design sure. Well the screenshot you sent me was the same as the ending screenshot of reseson E evil four. I'll say that. They're very similar. Very similar. Anyway, yeah, why don't we wrap up? Am mean of Requiem. All right, yeah let's wrap up Now you're onto something. I'm actually curious so like I'm really curious what Yach Club Games does next. And because I know there's a rumored three D shovel Kight game potentially. Yeah I've seen. I don't know what happened with that. I wonder, I honestly think Mina in three D would be like maybe the best game ever made because I feel like that would basically solve All the issues everyone has with Mina at this point. I wonder if there's like Mina in like an N sixty four style would be really interesting. Yeah. That's the Ocarino time remake that I want personally. Oh it seems like they were working on a three D shovel night game, but then axed it to make Mina the Hoower. Oh o, Right because Mina began as like sort of a side project for one of the people at Yak Club Yeah And then became the main footcus of which very happy it's done so well. It's now sold, I think half a million copies.. That's great. would I'm hoping they they can break a million by the end of the year. I think they will considering it's like every sort of like best games of the year so far list has it like pretty close to the. Yeah, yeah. I feel like everyone who reviewed it really loved it critically doing very well Cool. Well, Glad Min is off to a good start. Shout out M, shhout out Elliot, Shout out Fox McLeod Sorry. somethingomething about tired Brendan really is amazing too. I don't know what happened to me. Yeah You were glowing when it was Elliot. I know, I was.ck Check your magisy combo on your way out. Thank you so much for listening.orryer. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. say don't spray it, Steve. Oh, it has something to say at the end. Cool. I for that. I just need to eat the weird bolognets I have in the fridge I don't know if that's gonna to help. Then I'll be back up just now. I see this like bowl of pasta just like censored, like dubious food. time for lunch. Basically what it is. Thank you for listening. Into the Castle Online is our website. If you like the show, the best way to help it grow is to share with a friend. You can also write and review us on your podcast app of choice. You can support the show directly at patreon dot com sashion to the c. Another thing that we've been teasing for a while, when I said before that I'm knocking out games my backlog, Pragmata is still one of them. I still want to do that CapcOom episode with you if you have it in you about Requiem and Pragmata once I'm done. Yes, please. So look forward to that. We'll be recording Sorelyave pretty soon as well. so patrons, you can expect that the near future I wantanna talk about Disclosure dayay on that. Okay. Yeah, Colin I know. I might Maybe I'll eat weird pasta before we record and I'll give you a taste of what I'm experening. think you should, yeah. C sixtyve. Yeah. Oh. That's a band. What' do you think about Colin Fth? Hold on. C six Stve? I have a vivid memory, spepeaking of wax heads, I think I saw a modest mouse Five or six times live when I was in college. Yeah. And I'm pretty sure there was an opening act called Yeah, C sixtyve. He's a musician. Wow. He was good. He's like yeah,'s seventy five, damn, hell yeah. Talk about never giving it up. Fuck yeah, dude. Man, C sixtyve Sorry, this is not good audio. I I just forgot that happened until now. Anyway, you can expect me doing my best C six Steve on the next shore leave. That all connects to C six, Stehven. Okay. Thankk you for listening. We'll see you next week. Have a great rest of your Elliot day. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Oh theeam machine is fifteen hundred doars thousand dollars also' immediately like I can't hold it They announced the steam machine while we were recording this episode or sorry the pricing and the pre orders of the steam machine while we were recording this episode, which it costs most of One month's rent. Yeah. Basically. Isn't that great? All right, bye everyone. S upan Fuck no.at get some food in you. Qit it with the b and it. Thanks. Thanks for everything, Sam Alman. We love the future we live in. Don't put this in an audio file. your next. An ironic fuck you to Sam Alman. This is off. Sorry, that's me not being myself. Be everyone