Thematic Depth of Deltarune

He the Ah is a low key video game podcast. My name is Brandy Bigley. My name is Stephen Hilger. Right off the bat, I need to tell you something. I was in New Jersey this weekend. Hell yeah. Which of course means I took New Jersey Transit, which of course means I was in Sakkaucus Junction briefly. Yeah. You never really leave. You never really leave. The thing that was funny about visiting Skaucus Junction this time was that I was in one of those train cars that was covered in ads So I actually couldn't see out the window, which Oh wow. Normally I think is like a crime against humanity in public transit to not be able to look out the window on a train. like why even be on a train?ar a small joy in a scary place. But I do think it prevented me from the cosmic rays of Sakakus Junction But ye the view is admittedly not great. Oh yeah, it's landfills basically Yeah it's landfills and like not even like cool brutalist architecture. It's it's like just putting the brutal and brutalist, you know? Yeah But after I was I was in Jersey for a wedding specifically and after after the wedding, one of our friends who lives in Oregon I was visiting Manhattan and it was like, how do I get to Manhattan? What should I do Be we were kind of in the middle of nowhere. So you have two choices. You can run now Yeah back to Oregon or the junction awaits. because basically the options were like, take a lift all the way to Manhattan, which I was like that that's so expensive. likeike do not do that. Yeah. It's so much easier. We were not that far from Sakakus. So I was like This is the only time I'll ever recommend somebody goes to Sakucus Junction. So I was like, go to Sakucas, just get a car there. It's going to be like a ten to fifteen minute drive. It's not that far away. And then you just have this whole platform of trains that are waiting to take you to New York City. and they'll all take you to Penn Station. and then from there you can get anywhere you want. For as much as we joke about the junction, it is convenient Like I do I do need it. rightight. You know, that's that's why we never truly leaveis. So you okay, let's Yeah on the outs. So you agree with me that that was the right thing to tell her to do. Yeah, the only other choice you really have is and not all, this is where it gets actually boring, but like not all of the train lines, basically public transit in New Jersey only fully exists like in orbit of New York or Philly. Yes. So if you're in South Jersey, basically all the trains and buses that exist go pull you into Philly. Yes. and black hole And for North Jersey, it's to New York. Like a different black hole. Yes, exactly. have two different galaxies ull and it's or It's like the a ororta of all the train lines. They all go to Sakucus. Yes. So what's weird is like where you and I are from, we're technically like a half h if traffic wasn't a factor, we're like a half hour drive to New York City. Yeah. It it's really very close. It's really bizarre how close it is, again, if traffic's not a factor We have to take a train an hour and a half south in the opposite direction briefly to then go back up because there's otherwise no direct line. Now the only other choice you have is that some lines end in Hoboken and then you can take the path. which it sounds like where you were in Jersey, Hoboken would be too far of a drive. At that point, you might as well drive to Newhere. Exactly right there. Exactly. So the Hoboken path is that's the way more pleasant version of the junction Anyway, continue The actual endpoint of the story is I send these people from Oregon to Sakucus Junction willingly. Yes. And I immediately get a text message that says, we can't get on the train. And I'm like, okay, why? And it's because the World Cup is happening. Oh yeah. You were only this is an unbelievable thing. You were only allowed to get on the train to New York City from Skucus you had prove you had a ticket to the World Cup. Wow. So they didn't let people on the train going in either direction connecting to the city unless you had the World Cup ticket. So then our friends were just trapped in Sakkakas Junction. and I couldn I couldn't believe I was like, I really I have told this person too. I was like, it is the island from lost. Like I've had this conversation with her in the years in the past. Yeah, it is like the proto back room Yeah it is like the origin of all of that stuff. Yeah, you told a story on this show years ago about a time that you fell asleep waiting for a train and a man shook you awake and yelled, How do I get out of here? Like that And I couldn't answer him. I just feel like I willingly sent my friends into that scenario and I was so naive to think that it was going to be fine And of course it wasn't because it never is. It never is when you needed to be. It's either as's you're so right to compare it to the backrooms because like the whole thing about the backrooms is it's just an office building with fluorescent lighting. Like there's nothing exciting or interesting about about the backrooms, but it's the fact that they're empty and that they don't make sense that is scary And that something could be lurking around any corner. And that's what Zus. That really is what Zakaucus Junction is. is it is the backrooms of a train station. It is putting the brutal and brutalist, but also it's Labyrinthian and there's no way to know if you can get in or out. Also there's one bar, but if you go there, you turn into a statue. I always give that passing advice for anyone visiting. You become one of the stools Yeah. There's a point where whenever I went there there was a new statue. I'm like, is this feels like it's happening very quickly. So anyway, I've playing Star Fox. I will also say I wanted to give the floor to you real quick. Oh sure. because recently you launched Overworld, which is a great video game news site. Oh yeah. and the podcast also started. I wanted to see if you wanted to plug that at all. Okay, sure yeah So Overworld Weekly is a new news podcast. It comes out every Friday. And it's basically just taking the information that is already present on Overworld and turning it into podcast form, but obviously with my own like insight into it. It's kind of it's a rebranding and kind of re envisioning of what I was already doing as the wavelength podcast. Yeah, that was actually my main question and that's selfishly why I wanted to do this because I was curious if that was just like the expectation for that going forward.. Yeah see The divide is like wavelengths is kind of positioning itself as being kind of more opinion based. and I will still probably have videos about like news articles if there are ones that I think. So the channel is continuing as it is. Yeah, exactly. The channel continues, the Patreon continues and everything that's back there. I just started doing shhovel Night Dig runs again, which a lot of people are very happy. I saw that, which is cool ye. So stuff like that, which I will talk about that on the show eventually, but to get I need to play more of the new content They had a big content update for Shovelle Kight Dig last year and I just didn't play it, which is bizarre. I'm wondering I saw in Blue skky someone was like we're entering the era likeike at one point know when Shovel Knight was new, they appeared in almost every other indie game. Yeah. and Mina is now starting to guest star in a lot. I'm wondering if we'll ever get a Mina Dig, you know? Oh o my Godd. yeah But you know, wavelengths, the channel will continue to exist, But I just took what was the podcast feed where I was doing honestly not that frequent show where I would just talk about news if there was like enough news. And I've kind of shuffled that around into a more bite sized show about the top five to ten stories on Overworld every week, which is basically just ranked by like how many news outlets talked about this story and then also like how many people on the website clicked on that story throughout the week whichich you know, I obviously have my own editorial vision over. I'm not just like printing out the top ten and being like, that's that's the episode this week. Top five underrated ways to go to the grocery store. Yeah. That's like the nightmare version of it. You know, so I'm grouping stuff together and saying what stories I want in and out of there, but I've only done one episode so far And still testing stuff out. There's still stuff I want to mess with in the format, but people seem to like it, which was nice. Yeah, I enjoyed it a lot. You and I both jokke that we're both bad at saying what we're up to. so I put your feat to the fire a little bit sorry if I caught you off guard. No, it's okay. No The initial intention of the launch was to not talk about it. I blew it for a couple days. No this works out because by the time Wednesday Yeah By time this episode is out, there will be another episode of Overworld Weekly coming in two days. but I just put it on the website. it was just on Overworld. Like if you visited Overworld the day that it came out or any timee in the weekend, you could just see the podcast there. So I just wanted to see like how that did, how many people were interested in it just via the website Yeah, that's gonna keep going basically in perpetuity. I think the main idea, as you and I talk about a lot on and off the show, is just like what is the most sustainable version of a thing that you can make without like burning out Yeah. And I think the like hour long news show I was doing, that was a video podcast and an audio podcast every week on top of like weekly videos on wavelengths and working on Overworld in the background and into the Aher and everything else that I do was like Yeah yeah, that was Obviously not going to work out. So yeah, I think this is I think this is probably the right move. Yeah, it seems like it's working out. So I think it also meshes well with with Overworld as a site. Yeah. Yeah everyveryone takes the news differently. I think having multiple ways to experience it is a good thing. Yeah, I do think of it in those terms also. like if you kind of want like the quote unquote fire hose, it's still not a fire hose because it's being categorized a lot, but like you can go to Overworld and you can the Garden hose the garden I like that a lot more. Yeah It's gentler. You can go to Overworld and you can see the news. If you subscribe to the RSS feed, you can see a little bit less of the news. Basically the RSS feed is just like showing. I think ye,''s It's stories that have at least four outlets reporting on them. And then and then the social media accounts, so like Blue Sky and Mastedon is six outlets have to report on something at the same time for it to hit social media. And then the podcast is like the final filter. It's like, here's just the stuff that really mattered at the end of the week. So it's kind of like depending on where you decide to engage with the Overworld, you will have different experiences depending on how much you care about following the news obsessively, which if you're like me, it's constantly and you're on the website at all times. But you know, some people don't care that much, which is just understandable. I think. Well, that's exciting. Yeah. Thankk you for sharing that in detail. Thank you for giving me the floor.an canan I take the floor again? Take the floor again, give me nothing. I want to be in space. I want get into later. I want to talk about Starfox twenty twenty. Yeah, so I haven't played this yet, so I'm excited to hear your thoughts. Wh, I play the demo, but I haven't played the full game yet. Yes. I have been playing Starfox twenty twenty six and I have also been playing Star Fox sixty four. Oh, look.ed a little because I haven'ted Star Fox sixty four in a long time. Yeah. According to the Nintendo Switch Oline thing, I think the last time I had booted it up was last year to I think I got like halfway through a run of like the easy mode run. I didn't even like do any of the hard stuff. So I was like, okay, should I should play as much of Starfox sixty four as I have of Starfox twenty twenty six just to kind of like get a baseline comparison. And then also I think it gets closer to the conversation that you and I had a couple of weeks ago when the demo came out about just how similar they are, you know, in terms of just like enemy placement and the exact formula of how levels play and how you find secrets and levels and things like that. That none of that has really changed. Like my opinion on most of that is basically exactly the same. It is it is a one to one experience in terms of honestly, like even Even the way flight feels, like it looks better, obviously, but I think the games play very similarly, more similarly than I was expecting. Yeah. That's how I felt with the demo. Yeah. I was just I was kind of surprised to find that in particular. I thought that going back to Star Fox sixty four, I would feel a little bit more of like, oh yeah, you know, it's a little bit more rigid, it's a little bit, you know, harder to maneuver and And to play in certain regards. And like that's not the case at all, actually. It's aged remarkably well. especially considering like now that we're like neck deep in PS one games and like my own memory and recent experience then sixty four, I don't think there is an era that has aged more poorly in terms of control and camera than early three D. Yeah. L it was such a new frontier that like it's really remarkable the games that got it right Yeah, which include obviously Starfx sixty four, whichich I think like you play that on Superintendo and you're like, this belongs in three D This was like cool that it worked on Superintendo, but like what is what am I looking at? Totally I don't have like the proper sense of depth here. No, you're so right. Yeah. and I think going back and playing it again, I was I was just kind of like floored by it because I will say at the top of this, I guess or towards the top of this, I am loving the Star Fox twenty twenty six remake. Like I think it's superb. I really, really am blown away by it in a way I wasn't expecting. But I do think a little bit of that shine was taken off when I went back to Star Fox sixty four and I played it and was like, oh my God, this game is so tight and feels almost exactly the same. Yeah, the only thing I can think of from my time with the demo that was like new in terms of the controls was bombs can lock on M And like like I don't want to under undersell that decision because it's cool, but it's also like thirty years later, here's what we've added. It's a little bit like, okay. There are some things that I think are obviously, in my opinion, obviously better in the remake. I think like for example, Aquos as a level ' fucking brutal If you don't know anything about Aquos, dear listener, is that when Cat shows up? I don't I don't know No no, is it underwater? submarine one clam Oh yeah, that's a nightmare. Yeah. There's a submarine level in Star Fox sixty four in the hard re that is just brutal. I mean, it's just like a horrible experience. It's in that era, which I think a lot of people used very well, you know, like the silent Hills and Resident Evils of the world, you know, using like the volumetric fog that was available in the nineties in three D games for like horror effect. It just is brutal in Aquos in Star Fox sixty four. And by comparison, I actually do think this is one scenario where not only have they made the controls feel better when you're controlling The submarine, but also just the like better graphics of it all actually does really improve the experience of playing that level in particular. It's so funny. It's like most of the game feels one to one. Aquos in the same way that the Ocaran of Time three D S remake made the waterater Temple be like, oh, wow, this has gone from like being one of the poorer dungeon experiences to one of the best Very similarly, I had a feeling of like, oh, wow, okay, Aquos kind of rocks now. You know, it's still not my favorite level, but it's, you know, it's better than it was.. It' the water in Nintendo. It's always the water level that's like a nightm. Always. ye Yeah. Yeah The thing they do that's really smart is like because they have real time lighting effects now, like using your missiles and your blaster to light up the environment in Aquos, I think really helps a lot. I'm going really deep on Aquos, but I just I think that that level in particular really kind of highlighted the light touch I think this team Vllon interactive had when it came to making this game. The thing that really shines about it though, and I think if you ever pick this game up, it's the thing that you probably gravitate towards the most is the added dialogue and the team dynamics. Yeah. I felt that way about the demo. L we talked a lot. If you missed that episode, I feel like we fell in a similar place. I think maybe you were a little bit more positive than I was, but I did like all the new stuff. I think it made it at least in the demo, it made it weird for me as a total experience because I'm like all this new stuff, these new scenes new dialogue, like new story. This is all getting me really excited for like the return of Starfox. And then you go into the level and it like looks beautiful and sounds beautiful, but it is the same. And it made me think like, okay, if it does feel weird and I think like on a A creative level, I think I would just be more like unambiguously excited for like a new game. Like it could control the same way, but it's like a new Starfuckx game in this style, which I'm hoping we get because it seems like this is doing pretty well. Like I'm actually surp I'm pleasantly surprised that the reviews and the general discussion online is very positive. Yeah. I was fully expecting this to be Day one angry I'm sure there are angry YouTube videos about it. there always are. It feels like a lot of people are just like really happy to either experience this for the first time or revisit it in this package. I read a number of reviews because I was like, this is something I need more information on before I get it. And it does feel like like you said, If one feels slightly uncanny about that, okay, we're in a new realm and a new era, but we're doing the same thing, that doesn't fully go away. But it's still fun to play because the game is great. So like right Starfo again, I think I said this last time but like Starfox sixty four is good. So the remake that is like,h, almost a one to one remake mechanically is also good Yeah, I think my I only really have an issue with this style of remake existing if it's in place of new ideas. And I honestly, I'm not pessimistic enough about Nintendo to think that this is all they're going to do. Like I don't think it stops here. Yeah really. you know. I also think this game is not devoid of new ideas, which is, I think the most surprising thing to me and the thing that's really been working for me. And I think getting back to what I was saying, the team dynamics of it all is where that really shines because they took what was working in Star Fox sixty four, you know that like almost, I would say like so successful it became a meme vibe of all of your teammates kind of like constantly popping up on the bottom of the screen and yelling at you about different shit. Like that aspect of it has always been great, but also limited and kind of baked in depending on what you werere doing This remake, they've added a lot of dialogue. A lot of the dialogue from the original game is still present, but they've added a lot more and they made it a lot more dynamic. So your relationships like as Fox with Slippy and Falco and Peppy will change pretty dramatically depending on how well you perform in levels and that's cool. Do you keep shooting Slippy for some reason by accident, you know, because friendly fire is on Slippy will feel differently about you like that and that Slippy will remember this. Slippy willike actually like that will manifest both in missions and out of missions from what I've seen. because I've played through Starfox twenty twenty six three times now twice. Oh in the easy run and then once on the hard mode run because I wanted to see like the true ending, quote unquote. all of in both the easasy mode runs, like I had kind of different interactions happening, which I think was very interesting. And I think that part of the game is really strong. and the other part of it, which I think is more geared towards people who have played Sar Foxy four before and like kind of know it like the back of their hand. I think I think this is the kind of thing that you would probably appreciate. There's a lot more built in from a quality of life perspective in terms of tracking what you've been accomplishing between runs Giving you achievements and unlockable things that you can get for completing different runs and doing the game in different ways and kind of seeing everything that it has to offer. because the whole, I mean, a run of this game takes an hour, like at most. it doesn't take very long. So I think if you were to buy this game and just play through it from the beginning to the end of the campaign and be like, oh my go, that's the whole game. You'd be very disappointed. Thankfully, when you finish the game for the first time, a bunch of pop upps show up that are like, you did it, but you should do it again and maybe there's a better way, blah blah, blah boss at the end and then you know, there's like a kind of like MCUE post credits scene where like Andros's eyes open up again and he's like these fools think that they accomplished whatever. And then it's like, okay, well, obviously there's another way to play through the game where Bill will return. Yes where you can where you can maybe successfully defeat him once and for all, etcetera And all that stuff, I think is really helpful. You know, I think all that stuff makes a game that was once more obtuse, a little less obtuse for both new players and returning players, which I think is the right approach. And all of that stuff, I think works really well from a campaign perspective. You know, Just like giving me unlockables and all these things I think was the right choice. The other side of the game that I think fucking rules and is the thing that I'm really locked into is the multiplayer. the multiplayer Absolutely owns. likeike it's so unbelievably fun. It's currently only three maps, which I feel like they probably will expand eventually. But all three of the maps have their own different methods of play. So there's one on Coraria, which is a multiplayer mode where it's like two teams of four and then also each team has their own like little kind of armada of little mini ships flying around as well And you need to fly into certain bases and like capture them, which just means that you need to be in the area of the base flying around and there can't be any enemies there. So like you get into little dog fights with the other enemies as you're in the areas. then if you can clear them out, then you get to capture the base, et cetera. You get pointsace on that. whoever wins wins. There is another one, I can't There's an ice one. I can't remember what the objective is, but there's a third one Yeah Which are these like big robots flying around? Was this in the original game? Is that we re to tell me? I was trying to remember the Winter planet and I thought hoth. and I'm like, that's not in the campaign, I think it's Fitchia. That's where do you fight Star Wolf for the first time exactly. onn the easy path. Yes. There's there's a specific what is the thing there? Oh, o, the thing there is there's a bunch of meteors falling down onto the planet And you need to like fly down close to the ground, shoot the meteors and then pick up the minerals that are inside of them, and then whatever team can pick up the most minerals wins. And then the third one is just like out in space. It's in one of the sectors. And there are these like giant kind of they look like roockem sockam robots flying around, which one of the bosses the sixty four Dan. Yeah. it's one of the bosses you fight later, but they're kind of flying around they have these tractor beams attached to like big pieces of cargo. So you have to blow up the big Rock and sockam robot. thenen you have to pick up the cargo and bring it to your own base. And obviously like the other team is trying to do the same thing. and there's only one piece of cargo on the field at a given time. So like everybody's fighting over this one piece of cargo. Oh that one, the one that like runs away from you. Yeah, but you're just in space. so it's just kind of flying around. was thinking That sorry, but that boss in Starfox of the gu the one that's running around. No, that's a different one. but yeah, I dont you're talking about different. that reminds me so much of Rez that moment. because Rz came later, so I'm actually curious where what they were pulling from with that. Yeah. Very cool. But those are the three different multiplayer maps and you can play it Oline with bots, online's against Randoss. and then also online with your friends, obviously. But one of the most amazing things that you can do is play it online with other people who don't have the game. So like if you and I wanted to play the game online right now, we could play it and it would just feel like you owned the game. So it's like what they used to do on the Nintendo DS with with the like game sharing thing. With Mario Kart, you had to be shy guy. otherwise you could play it. Right which was so funny. I don't know how they accomplished this or did this, but in this game You can like we could just play the game online together if we wanted to. It's kind of amazing that that's even possib. That' really cool. I'll definite pick it up before the year is over. I just it was a steam sale and I had already spent like seventy dollars and I was like, I figured you were getting this. And sometimes I just have to be like, okay, for our show's budget do we both need it? rightight now I can wait a little bit. Yeah. And I kind of wanted to hear what you thought before I got it to be honest. Yeah, I'm really positive on it. and I find myself m playaying lot more than I thought I was going to, you know, because we're playing a lot of stuff right now. We're playing PS one stuff. I'm still making my way through Middle Gear Solid and that's kind of like the game I've been focusing on the most. But then in the background is still M to the Hollower and Elliott and now this and there's a lot going other stuff we're talking about. So there's a lot going on, but I found myself, you know, I was just at that edding and st I brought my swwitch with me and I had some downowntime when we arrived before the ceremony happened. And the first thing I did was jump into Starfox and do another run of the game. because I was like, hell, yeah, that's what I want to do. But I will say the multiplayer is the thing that I'm playing the most now. It That sounds fun. Really, really fun. The online experience is great. I obviously do not have The webcam feature where you can play like as members of Starfox and Star Wolf, but I will give a shout out. Oh you can be o, that changes everything, Brendon. I can be pigma. Yeah, you missed all that stuff. Oh my Godd. Yeahah, if you have the camera plugged into the sc I didn't know you could be Star Wolf character. Oh yeah, there's like VTuber mode. and then yeah, if you're on the other team, you can like could this happened during lockdown, I would be unbearable to be around. This would have been my whole stick. What's amazing too is like if I'm playing another game and you're playing Starfox and we're doing game share together, like we're still like playing together online, you can still be pigma and I'll just be myself. Like if I'm playing Elliott, you'll show up in my game as pigma Which Fx And you know what? I've been thinking about this because you casually refer to Fox and Falco as Vegeta and Goko. Yeah. I would argue that Wolf is the Vegeta, att least like the Siyan arc era Vegeta. and then Pigma's Majinboo, Andrew is Racumb and Leon is Zarbon Yeah. I think And then Androses Fza, of course. I think Falco is just Falco in all scenarios. because the more I was thinking about that a lot while I was playing through the campaign because Falco spends a lot of the game being like Fox sucks at being the leader. Like Iate this guy. He functionally plays a similar role to Redeemed Vegeta, but he's like he's like has the personality of one of the humans Y in Dragon Ball. But he's not Yamcha,, you know , he's just It's kind of just the voice of reason being like, Goku, you have to stop saying yes to these tournaments. Yeah, right. voice reason that he doesn't have. Yeah. But I will give a shout out to Jake over to Critical Eerror. I was watching his stream of the multiplayer and that was the thing that really got me locked into it because he and his buddy were playing both with the VTuber like Star Fox Star Wolf character faces on. and they just watching them play was exhilarating and really got me lockedre this. I think we should play and stream it together. I would love to do that. I have a question for you Aesthetic spoiler. S. But one of my favorite things that also kind of disturbed me as a kid about Star Foxas four is on the hard path, I think specifically, each time or I guess it just depends on how often you encounter them. because if you stick to one path like you're guaranteed to meet Star Wolf and his crew a few times L basically, there's a way you can play sixty four where you beat Star Wolf and his crew like three times before the scripted final fight. And at that point their ships have exploded so many times they're like half cyborg robot people. They have like eye patches and robot stuff. I'm curious if the remake takes a similar approach. Yes, O if that Yes. I love that so much. I'm sure there's a cutscene about it. like last time you saw me, I was more Biological now I'm a robot. It It's good stuff, man. Yeah. It's a very faithful remake. I'm excited to play it. I just hope that what follows this is a new game and not here's, I mean, I would actually love a Star Fox assault remake. That would be sick. But I do hope this just gives them like, okay, we now have the foundation. peopleeople are interested in Star Fox again can Go to new places from here Yeah, rather than just remaking all the other ones. I would bet they don't want to touch the other gamees. Yeah. I feel like it's similar with Capcom and Resident Eil five and six. It's like Right. They're like, man we can skip that era. Yeah, just don't do it. You have something good here. You have a good foundation and keep on keeping on, you know? I would bet anything though, that they will at least add Starfox adventures to the gamecube I hope they do. That feels I think they will. I think that will be like the in between like let's keep Star Fox on everyone's mind and then we'll see that. I would love his salt as well, but I think at least 'cause in the direct for this remake, they were like, there are a handful of Star Fox games that we'd like you to remember. There is Star Fox, Starfox sixty four, and Star Fox Adventures and no other games came out. Yeah. Anyway, back to the remake But this sounds cool. I imagine how I felt in the demo won't fully go away, but it sounds like I'll just have a good time with this. So ye. that's the thing at the end of the day. if you like Star Fox sixty four, you will probably just like playing this. I think you're allowed to intellectualize the feeling of like wanting something new, obviously, but ye at the end of the day, in terms of like what the game is trying to be It does a very good job of that. And I think you will appreciate it at least for that reason and then play the multiplayer and get a camera and be pigma, whichich is your dream easy to please. Yeah. My intellectual take just fades away immediately. You wan to take a break? I would love to. All right. I need some time to think about this. Thanks Starfox. Thanks Starfox. Bye bye. byye bye Brend Hello, Stephven. We have a tiding this week from Chris to Jeremy. That reads this is a shout out for Jeremy Frereeberg who I introduced to the pod. I need him to get back from a long and important and I'm sure lovely trip visiting family in South Africa so we can get back to playing marathon in season two together, maybe finally finish Baldder's Gate three' third act. That is a really de it is tough to say. He paid for this Maybe finally finish Balsate Bald'sgate three' third act. That's what it was throwing me off. Anyway, love you and miss you bud. talkalk soon. Thanks for the great show of Bigley and Hillger and thanks for always giving me and Jeremy new games to talk about, even if he's a trails convert and I'm not fififty percent isn't bad for trails converts. and thank you, Chris. Thankk you, Jeremy. Thank you for supporting the show. If you would like a tidy, you can go to ent the castet online and find them in our merc store. Bye everybody. Bye bye Hello, we're back. I just I wan to have one last note about Star Fox that I forgot about. I think I'll talkr to you for a while. The music's great. The music's really good. Theusic I love music. The thing that really I think stands out to me is the main theme for Star Fox, the like d't, d't d don d Just feels like in my eyes, like one of the all time great themes for any piece of media, like any media product, L I put it up there with like Indiana Jones and the Emperors March Star Wars stuff, you know, like it really does feel like unbelievably iconic in a way. I think theme songs very frequently are not for like pieces of It puts you in the headspace so perfectly. Like I always feel like especially in sort of any video game that has levels or stages, the music for the first stage really does like set the whole toally and the whole vi. I'm just really I'm really impressed by it and the reorchestrations of all of them in this version of the game, I think are really ell Yeah I remember like subconsciously tearing up when I played the demo and I heard the asteroid field, especially because I did the hard path where you go through the wormhole and it's like weirdly like two thousand one and it was it was cool. It was a weirdest feeling of being like, this is like uncanny, but also sounds great Yeah. But then I also see the like in the choice of here. But yeah, I remembered seeing the scene after that. they were like, it reminded me of Mass Effect weirdly, where there's sort of like a mission debrief and they kind of explain to you your choices a bit more, you know Like you got the mission briefing in N sixty four and you could see on the map where you want to go, but it's interesting to have like more of a narrative reason to make your choice, I think. It didn't at least in the demo, didn't feel like they were just adding fluff. Yeah, I think that that's the interesting thing about it is Usually what's the name Pepper, right? General pepper General Pepper. I think that The dog who's like Fox. He's Admiral Hack basically. H his whole thing is like he will point you in the direction of what is the normal route but then be like, But also if you want to do this, like there's another part of the region that needs your help for whatever reason or occasionally also It'll just be like Fox and team being like, yeah, fuck off peepper. likeike we're gonna go do this instead. Thanks thanks for your input. But you know, you're paying us to do the job and we'll do the job, but we also have to go do this for a second, which I think is good. There's also I don't think I mention this, but there's a lot of like lore that they've written and added to the game, which is wild. Like the whole reason Maybe this was in the original game I don't remember. But the whole reason that the Star Fox team even like exists as kind of like a bounty hunting team is because they're trying to pay off Fox's dad's debts Becauseince he bought the Great Wolf, which is the big ship and it costs so much money that like they need to pay off like owning that ship and the upkeep of it. Yeah. I don't remember that it might be in sixty four. I would bet anything that's in command somewhere. that's the game that adds all that shit. And they probably just were like, all right, no one's gonna to play Starfouck Command. We'll reg that. Anyway It's it's a good video game. Yeah, you sald me on it. I'll revisit my friends. I think you'll have a good time and then we should play online together. It's really fun. Yeah, again, I think I think my feelings on it just depend on what's next. That's a kind of how it frames it very differently depending on what they follow this step with. It might I have, you know, this is all speculation always, but there's something about this that just feels so small in scope. you know, it still feels like it feels like the full package. L it feels like exactly what I want something like this to be, but it does feel more like kind of a training wheels for big time kind of experience to me. That's what I'm holding onto. Yeah, and I guess I did had to reset the mood a bit. so I think it was smart to do this in some ways. And then when the Glenn Powell Star Fox movie comes out, maybe we'll get another video game. Anyway, let's talk about other stuff. We have two we have two games here Both of which I think are fascinating for being being games that try to do too much and sometimes succeed and sometimes fail depending on who you ask. I think we should talk about the one that you brought first because it connects I feel like it's a good connective tissue between Starfox and mine. Yeah, it's a decent transition here You haven' been playing No Man's Sky. I'm obsessed with this For the first time an amazing decision that you've made. There are a couple games that I feel like it's embarrassing to have done a video game podcast for this long and have not played basically. It happens with films too feel like everyone has like, o, I've never seen A Dana Jones or I've never seen Star Wars or whatever There was a specific era of games where I was like kind of checked out completely. like not because I was like jaded, just because like I well, for one, I had no money. but like basically like the first couple years after I graduated college and after we stopped working for that site together, like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen Basically other than Undertale, I had really no context for what was coming out that was new. trruly, other than what I watched in Monster Factory when I was watching that series when it came out. that was my introduction to Bloodborne. was literally Tcan Sam. That awesome, which is I owe him everything It was around twenty sixteen, like twenty the very end of twenty sixteen was when I got a PS four. And then I've mentioned before that like Persona five was the game that kind of pulled me back. And then I promptly started a podcast with you and the rest is history. Here we are. But like there was a time where I was like kind of discomfortable playing like at that time You know, I just did to Chicago, I was like more involved in other things. One of those years was like especially hard for me on a personal level. So like I was pretty comfortable just replaying older games. L I would replay Dragon Age Origins or Skyrim or Final Fantasy seven or whatever. and like that's obviously not uncommon behavior for me I think what this show has really done, honestly, I just feel like I've learned so much in the process of doing this show. Like this show is less about at least for me, it's less about me being like, here is my polished take forever and more like here is hopefully an enjoyable way of listening to two people discover their own tastes and to learn more about games.es You know, like how much I knew when we started versus now is night and day. Yeah. But anyway. So in that window, the whole no Man sky story happened like and is kind of one of one of the examples of like, you know, I think we're we're at the tail end of it now with like GTA six's looming arrival, but the era of like a game getting overhyped, basically, a game like, I guess maybe it started with like fable and like, you know, like Duke Newcam forever, I think is one of the earlier examples also Sure. Yeah, these games that are kind of in development for a long time and they're being pitched in a way that like the actual game could never meet reality. I do think you got to point at the Peter Moinew connection in particular. Yeah I think I think that was a time where like people At least wanted to believe the hype. You know, I think we're pound for pound way more jaded now to like actually buy into like anything going well or being good. It's like a fuck off. Prove it Pve it. say it, don't spray it. But No Man Sky I remember a friend of mine, actually was friend of the show, Dom Niro. He texted me back in like was like, Hey, are you excited for No Man Sky? And I was like, Oh, what's that? And he wass like, you're like my video game friend. You don't know don manyike what's happen? It's funny too, 'cause that was also the time where like No Man Sky had broken containment outside of video it had become the mainstream news that this game existed. It was on Jimmy Fallon, you know? that was actually kind of the death knell of the game was when it appeared on Jimmy Fallon. But yeah. that was when I was just like going for walks and listening to Alex G basically. I didn't really know what was happening. A couple days ago We just change which Alex G album we're listening to when we're walking now. Change what's being replayed in which Alex G album yeah. But anyway, so like no man's Guide, if you did miss that story, that was a decade ago at this point wild to think about. But that game was like this is going to be like the next step of and actually I don't know I don't know the story well enough to know. wasas this like Was this the team behind the game talking up what No Man's Sky was going to be or was this like kind of the vicious cycle of just hype overall or maybe both? It' It's a combo of both. I remember it vividly. Yeah because I was I don't want to say bought into the hype, but I was excited about the prospect of it if it even met like any of the this stated vision of the game. But one of the big things about No Man Sky was it I think the company was called Hello Games, if I remember correctly. Hello Games first announced this basically as a space simulator survival crafting kind of thing. almost you know, piggybacking off of the unbelievable success of Minecraft and saying like this is Minecraft for the future We've generated an entire universe, which means that like you could just fly around forever and not see all of what the game has to offer. And not only that, but and this was one of the big things, not only that, but the game is online and multiplayer, but the odds of you ever finding somebody else are basically non existent because the universe is so Gant And that was like the initial pitch, if I'm remembering correctly, it was at E three. It was at a PlayStation event at E three that they first announced this game. And that was when Sony really got involved in kind of like positioning No M Sky as you know a best on PlayStation four kind of experience and put some of their marketing weight behind it. So a little bit of it comes downown to Sony. And then the other I would say eighty to seventy five percent somewhere in that vicinity comes down to Hello games themselves and their their founders specifically like showing up on places like Jimmy Fallon and just like doing the Peter Molinew thing of basically saying a bunch of stuff that may or may not have been just on the roadmap at the time, but hadn't been built into the game or scoped out that did not show up in the final game. That was kind of the bigger thing was there were just a lot of people who felt like what was advertised was not what they had bought, which obviously began this whole redemption arc that we're gonna to get into. But the game got kind of like absolutely rocked when it came out critiveically and commercially too. Like peopleople just were not big fans of it. I promise I'm not trying to be that guy. I liked it a lot when it came out. I wouldn't say a big fan of it, but I was a fan of it. Like what the game was was very different than what the game was advertised to be, but what the game was was very interesting to me. And really I really appreciated what was there. I found the experience of traveling between all these different planets to be meditative and fun and interesting and the way in which you traveled between these planets being like I need to get enough fuel in this ship that I can know jump to another planet and find enough fuel to jump to another planet and so on and so on and so on until you reach some kind of terminus in terms of your own interest in the game. This was before there was like an ending or even like a story that made sense in the video game or like honestly most of the stuff that's in No Man' S sky was not present in the That original version, but as a sandbox to fly around in and just kind of discover weird stuff and look at weird aliens and have fun on planets and you know hang out in space stations and stuff. like I enjoyed that experience enough that I thought it worked. And I remember bringing I think it was either the second or the fifth episode of the show depending on how you count how we did episodes. I think it was self prescribed narrative drive was when you brought it up. I think that is the name of the episode. you're right. I can't belie I remember that, but I also have a weird memory Yeah, that episode I brought the game to the show and talked about basically exactly that idea, right? Is this like the game doesn't really have a narrative that makes sense in it and is not appealing in any way, shape, or form. So you just need to kind of figure one out for yourself, like decide who you are in this system and how you interact with it. And that was enough for me. And I'm excited to hear your feeling about the game Because I have not played it since then and have been thinking about revisiting it since then. Oh also just to double back on the multiplayer thing, the day the game came out, two people live streamed trying to find them trying to find their friends on the same planet and then found out that the game was not online at all, in fact, because they ended up on the same planet. It turns out there were no online features whatsoever Oh wow So that was a piece of it as well. Anyway, there is multiplayer in the video game now. Yeah, I've seen it firsthand. Yeah. cool. All right. how are you feeling about No Man' Sky It's twenty twenty six. I don't know I don't know why I just never I guess well, I guess I know why. I didn't know it existed and then when I did, it was universally rejected. So wasn' like I wasn't like, you know what I want to buy today with the money I don't have is No Mans Sky Yeah, like every year, if look at the game awwards, it wins the like, you know, thanks again awward or whatever. It's like the best best ongoing game. Yes, but it's it's always, yeah, it's like the biggest redemption or like tries the hardest No man's skky. Right. And then like when the cyberpunk stuff happened, everyone was like, oh, wow, this is having a no man's sky experience. Yeah when it's turning around on it Yeah. so I was curious about it was on sale in the steam sale for twenty bucks and I was like, oh, the idea of playing this on Steam Deck is appealing. likeike a handheld space travel game sounds fun. Yeah. And I was curious if that would would or wouldn't make me as motion sick as Outer Wild did. And what I've learned is that having it on a smaller screen is less disorienting for me. Oh. So I might try to play through I actually got decently far into Outer Wilds, but I think having that maybe on a handheld device is the move. I just there was that one planet, I'm sure you know if you played Outer Wilds where like all the water of the planet gets sucked away. Y. and that made me like dizzy for like an hour after playing. It was like this it's really cool. It's like a very effective moment But I'm like I actually think I'm in space right now. Like I get I don't have a fear of heights, but I do when I'm looking up. and I don't know if that's the same thing. But like I never liked fireworks, for example, because the idea of looking at the sky with no trees is or any visual reference that I'm in a place makes me feel like I'm going fall off the earth. Whoa. Yeahah. It's a very I don't know if it's Vverdigo or what it is, but these games evoke that feeling. in a way that's like kind of exciting, but also can make me dizzy. Yeah. So so so far so good with No M's Sky. So anyway, ye. Okay, well, that's good. Yeah there are Different modes. so there's like a creative mode, which lets you like terraform. So that's kind of the like minecraft like let's just do whatever and hang out in space mode and build stuff. thenen there's the like normal mode, which is like, okay, you have to like it's a survival game, so you have to like craft things to survive. and it's a single player campaign, but you may or may not run into people on the way Yeah. And then there's, I think, a like slightly more casual version of that normal mode where it's like things just like cost a little less.. So there's like a focus on exploration, but it's not like the creative mode where you have like full control over things. Yeah. So they have really thought about all the different ways people approach this game Which is cool. I started in the normal mode and I've stuck with that. I did do a little bit of creative, but I'm like, I want to get this sort of intended experience first before I terraform this place. Yeah I think it's the right move. They start you on a random planet, which is interesting. Although I think there are some conditions it has to meet to like set you up for some success, but they did throw me on a like sort of arctic planet that's like constantly negative like fifty degrees Celsius and has blizzards like every few minutes. Yeah. So I'm like this feels especially difficult for like the here's that a Harvest Rocks part of the game. But it honestly was really immersive. And like that's, I think the main strength of my experience of farm. I'm only about like three hours in So just kind of messing around in the early game, but like as someone who had No expectations for this and no context really for what it was or what it is other than space. I found it kind of imediate the aesthetic I love, I love the way it looks. And I find that the setup for it basically is like there's a little like text flavor text of like, you wake up and you're like adrift in space, you're not sure where you are and you're kind of discovering like the ruins of like other space explorers who have been here, seemingly. Yeah. So you find these like destroyed things and you get supplies and the game kind of walks you through like here's how to craft this, like here's what you need to look for. And honestly, as much as I think the UI is a little confusing, The game very quickly tells you like what you as the player will need to have on you. Like. Oh, like the okay, like if I can harvest oxygen, that heals me. if I can harvest sodium, that does this. Like I very quickly grasp like what should I prioritize? likeike when I scan an environment, what is of interest to me That was my main issue with Starfield, which not to throw more shit at that game, but like No, I think they're very much in conversation with one another. Bea I remember even when the first Starfield trailer came out and they had the like little harvesting laser beam and they was like, you've accumulated more nitrogen. It wass like, what the fuck dude? That's just no man's sky Yeah, it's like Tod Sky. Yeah. Tod's field. Just Todd Sky. But I just I played Todd Sky is really good. It's like a boond villain. Yeah. Todd Sky. shaken in space. Okay. But like in Starfield, I played that game for like I didn't hate Starfield. you and I actually really tried to be to go to bat for it initially. Yeah. I definitely had a more positive experience than most people did. Yeah. I think people who saw through the main story liked that story. Yeah and how it the game maybe took too long to reveal itself in that way. Yeah. I think a non open world Bethesda version of that story would be a great video game actually Yeah. But anyway, like I remember I played that game and I was like, okay, like it's not like it's not bad, but I'm not really feeling anything. And I kind of kept waiting for something to happen. whichich is a similar feeling I had when playing Fallout four, albeit, I enjoyed Fallout four much more than Starfield, but like I had a similar feeling where I'm like, this isn't Surely, there's like something else here, right? And then I'm like, okay, like once I realized that Fallout four was not this is going to sound meaner than I mean it, but once I realized Fallout four was not a fallout game, but was like a shoot and loot game, I enjoyed it way more for that because I'm like, okay, the combat actually does feel good for the first time in fallout history. And it is fun to explore and find new guns and armor and stuff. But like expecting the level of like dialogue and RPG choices from New Vegas or even three, like it's not there. L That game is not in four You know, Maybe in some very, very specific moments, you get flavors of that, but like the more I played that game, the more I realized that that style of fallout was not present in for. And in Starfield, I was like, I don't know why I'm playing this. Like I don't know like with every other Bethesda game, I have some concrete element of why I'm there. I couldn't There were things about Starfield that I was enjoying, but if I'm being honest, the thing I remember most vividly that I enjoyed fully about Starfield was the lock picking. And I'm like that's a problem. If That's the thing, I'm like, I really enjoyed the new lock picking system. but anyway In Starfield, I played that game for I kept feeling like, okay, I should give it more time, I should give more time, it should give more time. I looked at my playtime. I had played forty five hours of Starfield. and I'm like, okay, if I'm still not feeling the pull, it's not for me and that's fine. But the thing that really hurt Starfield for me is like one when you're in orbit of a planet and you're fighting other ships, it feels pretty good But like traveling to another planet has to be fast travel, basically. Yeah, whichich almost defeats the purpose of like space exploration. Yes. And when I'm on a planet, I never really knew what I needed. L I never felt like I was armed with the information of like, I need to wear this kind of suit on this planet or I need to like like I broke my ankle early on and I never knew how to fix it Like I just there were just so many systems and so much inventory management that like I never quite got what like I didn't know what I was playing for like for fun and I also didn't know how to play it really Yeah oututside of the gunplay. Yeah. No mans skky by comparison, very quickly sets you up for success. It like okay, I know that even if I end up on a planet where the sky is purple and the animals are like made of plants, I know that on a base level, what I'm there for. You know, I need to get these supplies. And on some level, that also flattens the universe potentially, which I imagine was a critique at the time of like,es, okay, you have all this variety, but ultimately every planet is something in which I will mine. What is it in service of? Yeah. but honestly like in terms of just You know, okay, like I know what I need to survive. I enjoy learning that this planet is like this tundra with blizzards and like even just having to hide in a cave for a bit and like actually wait for the blizzard to stop gave me that kind of dragon's dogma feeling that I love where I'm like very minecraft in. Yeah, and this world doesn't care that I'm here in a way that's kind of exhilarating. Yeah. And I have to say The moment where so basically there's like kind of a tutorial where like they teach you how to mine, how to fight, how to run around, how to scan an environment. Once they let you like scan individual like flora and fauna, that's kind of when the Star Trek fan in me lit up because I'm like, I could spend a whole night doing this. L that was what I really locked into in that game. Yeah, knew I knew that about you and I was like, this is where you and I I think if we were if we had a podcast in twenty sixteen, we would have been canceled immediately for going to papy because we like learning about like baboons with shark fins. Yeah. But once you do all that, you repair your ship. and taking off is like truly magical. Like I know I'm ten years late to this But like they so if nothing else, they nailed that feeling of like, you are leaving the atmosphere. And like I kept sort of doing it in intervals where like I would fly straight up and then I would sort of pivot my ship to look around. And so seeing the transition from like, I'm above the clouds to I'm like in the sort of orbit of the planet and I can see like the ozone layer. Right. And then I'm in space. Now you've broken the atmosphere. It's really cool. Starield didn't have that And honestly, I think if Starfield just had that, it would be a significantly better game 'cause like that's the feeling you want if it's a game about space exploration. You know, And the ability to to like actually like I can, I mean, I know in Starfield, you can technically just use your like engine your like normal spaceship engine to get from one point to another and it will take like literal days to do it or you can fast travel. I like this system though, where it's like, okay, I can see like my next destination is a planet that will take me like an hour to fly to if I want to just like put on a podcast and like fly an hour into this planet or I can use the like warp drive and get right there I didn't realize that When they tell you how far you are away from something, it is real time. It's real time Dy I was walking around on the planet and it said like you're six hours away from this. I'm like, o Okaykay so it's like six minutes, right? And then like a half hour in I was like, I am am are five hours and thirty minutes away. I am a Game of the year episode away from my destination on this planet So what I did was I went back in my ship back into orbit and then I got far enough away that I could use the like warp drive to that point. So I really I just love like flying around in my ship. and I do think there's maybe a little too much, at least for me, like the amount of stuff you need to craft and the focus on crafting is like Not exactly what I'm there for, but even in my brief time playing the creative mode, I do think once you remove those survival elements, it does kind of dry out the experience a little bit. It sort I think ha it having everything have meaning where it's like I need this stuff to survive and then getting to the point where maybe you're like building stuff for yourself, but like also just the cool stuff like finding a space station or just the difference in like the planet I'm on now is this like lush kind of jungle U And when I'm in orbit of it, I see like this beautiful blue sky and like two suns. Cool. yeah I just love that stuff. Like I imagine, you know, when the game came out and it was just that and like, you know, I think on some level, I'm sure given the almost unanimous negativity about the game that it under delivered. and I'm getting a very different experience going into this with measured expectations ten years later. Right with forty five different updates and ten game of the year awards under their belt There'sason There's a reason that it literally went from mostly negative to very positive on steam over time. I think That I do think this game still requires you not expected to be like, I'm gonna land on a planet and shoot a bunch of aliens. L I like that it takes this very scientific Yes. You are not master chief. Yeah, like this respectful approach to like learning about life on another planet. And I get a lot of joy and comfort from that. So I don't know if this will be like my next big thing This certainly will be a game that I'll kind of revisit when I w to like relax and just like explore and truly kind of dig into open world elements that I'm usually not that interested in. Yeah. You know, I think there's something about the not the hard science of it, but just like the joy being like, I just saw a four legged creature made of dry leaves I gott to read about that one. Like I got I got And also it's so funny too to get these like majestic alien planets and it's like discovered by Frog Boy three years ago. It's like it will show like the players I forot about that. Who discovered it? So it'll be like, you know, Stinky sixty four discovered this five years ago. Right. I'm like, thank God for stinky. Yeah. But it's a lot of fun. And also plays great on Steam Deck. Like every now and then there's some texture popping But pretty remarkable that it runs so well on Steam Deck. I have to say. That's pretty miraculous. Yeah. It' ten years old, but still yeah. I think what you're connecting to is the stuff that I connected to when the game first came out. Yeah It sounds like of all the stuff that you've described, almost none of that is new, which I think is interesting. It does sound like they've created a better on booard players like the new player experience sounds a little bit better and a little bit more directed in terms of telling you what you need and how to do it because it was very sparse in the beginning. like it required a lot of Googling to know how to get off the planet you started on. They certainly fix that because they tell you pretty directly like here's what you have to make. Yeah. But the stuff that really started to work for me, the further in I got outside of the stuff that You were just talking about and just kind of like the general awe and the wonder of it, which I do think they did nail the first time around, in my opinion, at least, is when you like go to a space station for the first time and you talk to the different NPCs and stuff there, and you can start to align yourself with the different factions which are interested in different things because that's where I think the game, at least, you know, again, this is the version from when it first came out But I think that's the part of the game that was the most appealing to me was that they had built all these different factions into the game that allowed you to focus on the thing that you cared about the most, whichich is another thing that Starfield tried to do at a certain point and I don't think really succeeded it. But I think No Man skky being like, there is a faction specifically for like going and studying flora and fauna. There is a faction for like being a bounty hunter and going out and just like doing dog fights in space and stuff. like that part of the game is one that I'll be interested to go back and see if they've expanded. And I'm just generally curious to see what else they've added because likell I'll be real. like I like No Man Sky. I haven't visited it since then. I've been meaning to and just haven't done it, but I also don't have any context whatsoever for what the additional content that they've added is in the years since. And I think that's the thing I'm most interested in finding out is like, do I even want to tell do I even want to look it up? Or do I just want to jump into No Man's Sky right now, site unseen and just see what the experience is like without any of that information in my head? The only thing I know they added was because I caught a video on the steam page is they added like Basically Pokemon, where you can collect these like weird monsters Okay and battle them in space stations with. Yeah. So there seems to be a lot. but I agree with you. I think what I'm weirdly really into the stuff that the game has launched with that no one likes. Yeah We should definitely play this together all I'm thinking about right now is like how much I just want to download this game immediately when we're done recording and jump back. you and I played a lot of starbound together Exactly Yes. when that game was in early acccess, which I loved. That was sort of like my Minecraft phase. That's still one of my most played games on Steam. I loved the early acccess and like That game'es had a troubled history since then I won't get too into, but like the feeling of like hopping on your ship or my ship and like going to a new planet together and just figuring out like what's here? Yeahike what's the vibe here? I remember we made I remember one night we made this like really detailed and incredible base and then it started like raining asteroids and was just destroying everything. And I tried so desperate to make a case, Ohh, we can just build our base deeper and you're like, we should go to a different plan.. This is raining hell every few minutes. Yes. So it's reminded me of what I liked about those days. And it's really special. I can see why it keeps winning awards after the fact Yeah And I think it's yeah, it's the most other than Outer wild, it's the most I felt like mystified by space in a video game. I love that. So it's cool. I would recommend playing it on Steam deeck if you have a Steam deeck. And if you've like written this game off and anything sounds appealing about it, I would check it out, especially now that it's like deeply on sale. So Yeahah it's on sale all the time now. Yeah And I think it's basically on every platform too. I think it's on Switch and stuff. it's pretty wild. Yeah,, I mean, you're really compelling Gt check it out. I really do want to download No Man Sky again for the first time. It's also what VR looks like. That would be crazy Yeah. V. Really I remember getting, I think I got the original PlayStation VR headset in the hope that they would patch VR into No Man Sky then they never did for PSVR one Or maybe they did and just I just missed it at a certain point, but I remember that's why I bought the headset in the first place. I bought it for that and for Skyrim. and I did get Skyrim.es and that was great. That's probably the best way to play Skyrim, I think. VR. Yeah. There's something about going into like that first The height of the cave. Yeah. I've talked about this. Yeah, no, I mean I didn't mean I didn't mean be like Yeahah, yeah, yeah, the height of the cave. Yeah get it. that And like when the dragon hits Helgan in the beginning and like the imagines it where you're going up the staircase and it like burst in through the wall and then breathes fire in the wall. L that part is so scary and VR anyway Good video game. It looks like No Mans Sky is on Sitch two, but not the first switch. Otherwise, it's on pretty much everything. It's on Mac, it's on all the consoles.. So there you go. I wanted to talk about another game that kind of I think has a weirdly similar vibe surrounding it. Sure. I'll talk about it briefly because I'm still early on in it But it's Crimson Desert. Yeah, which is a game that has been talked about a lot this year. I think now is a great time to be playing it because nobody is talking about Crimson Desert right now. exxcept for Geo at Polygon, who's been posting about it and' actually the reason I ended up checking it out. But Crimson Desert, it's a game that came out earlier this year. I want to say like February or somewhere in that vicinity And I think for both you and I became one of those games where like a lot of people came out of the woodwork and like demanded we play it. Like some people just recommended like, oh, I think you'd like this, but other people were like, you shitsz, you must play this in a way that frequently when that happens, you and I are like, maybe not then. And it had a weird energy around it, which happens had a weird energy. And that's sometimes not the game's fault I don't know in this case who to blame, but I think this was also time is a flat circle. sameame friend Dom text me like, Hey, are you excited for Crimson Desert? And I also said, what's that? This time it made less sense that I said, what's that? because I've been hosting a video game podcast for eight years. But that was, I mean, I wasn't alone. I feel like people who are even more connected than I am It felt like the first like clear point of evidence that like what your most anticipated game of the year is depends on what your algorithm is sending you. And that's not like a good or bad thing to get updates on Crimson Desert. It's just like I for whatever reason had no awareness that it existed. I'm vaguely familiar with Black Desert online Yeah. and I know it's the same team And I I'm sure at some event, I've seen a trailer for it, but it kind of just left my brain. But hearing about it, it seems like I can see why you made the connection. It's at least in the lead up to release, it was pitch as like this is basically whichitcher three meets Skyrim, meets Assassin's Creed, meets every open world game. right's everything you like Black D desert online, but it's be a singles all a single player experience exactly Yeah And I think the way I would describe it is the same way No Man Sky was described, which is kind of like the team wants it to be an everything game, which so frequently is the best way to set out to make a game that ends up disappointing people and being bad. I think just like trying to be everything means the scope is way too wide and like no team can manage that in basically any instance. Of like any size. And that's always a demand from the top. I imagine anyone who's like made a game is like, I'm not going to make everything great. L you know it's. mayaybe let's choose two things to do well. or dare I say one thing. Yeah. So anyway, it's been a long time since Grims of Desert came out. I was like, okay, I think now is the time for me to check it out. I don't know why I just like felt the compulsion to finally download it and jump into it And I've played a couple hours of it so far. And I think one of the things that had been sticking in the back of my head, I think this was Jeff Grub, a giant bomb who compared it to Dragon's Dogma two. and I've just been thinking about that a lot in the context of this game. I think the main difference I'll say right at the beginning is that Dragon's Dogma two works so well, at least for you and I, because it has a lot of systems at play that are all knowable but hard to keep in your head at the same time. And the way those systems interact frequently either makes you feel incredible like you've mastered the world or creates comedy And I think that that's kind of the appeal of DraonZogma in a certain sense is like kind of the way the world generatively makes incredible things happen in either of those two lanes. Crimson Desert, I can understand why you would compare it to Dragon Zogma I. I do think it falls apart under the weight of its own systems because it feels so unfocused. like it really is trying to do so many things at once. Because I'm so early in, I've talked to a lot of people who say this is a game that becomes more reward and the more time you give it. So I'm willing to put more time in and see where how I feel about it. And I don't dislike it. I also think it's worth mentioning, I don't dislike it. but it does feel like narratively vapid in a way that makes me question why I'm doing anything. I'm more just like baffled at all times at what it is while I'm playing it and what they're asking me to do, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a dislike. So the game opens with you playing as this character who is like part of this Greay Maines clan. They're all dressed in like wolf pelts and there's like a bear clan that's coming and trying to fight them and they're dressed in bear pelts And right at the beginning of the game, like literally the beginning of the game is they just ask you to like walk around and talk to some people in your camp. And one of the first things they do is know, they're showing you how to move around, use a left stick to move, blah blah blah. There's this one button that allows you to change the perspective. And you can move how far back the camera is, you know, like how wide of a view you want, the FOV, I guess But if you press it enough, you get into a first person perspective. So I'm in this first person perspective and I'm walking around and I walk up to this person in my camp who had just has question marks over her head, and it said talk. and I talked to her and she was like, you should headed to the cabin. And then it said Julie above her head. And then on the top left, it said Julie knowledge acquired. And I laughed so hard And I immediately had the thought is this is oblivion. Like this is this is Elder Scroll six. That's speechcraft. I know Julie. Yes. No Julie I't know Julie. Julie Knledge acquired. Julie Kowledge acquired. Followed Stephven immediately by plus five trust with Julie. Hell yes. And I was like, we are cooking immediately, like right off the bat I am you have appealed to my dumbest senses of wanting to be playing oblivion, but not playing oblivion. and being able to play this game in first person and have that kind of experience, I was immediately kind of locked in. They then do this whole action sequence where like the bear clan shows up and they fight and you get into a big combat brawl, et cetera. You cannot do combat in first person. when you pull your sword out, they pull you into third person. It's probably for the best Because the combat is going from I would say more of like a modern asssassin's Creed kind of thing, It's kind of like that plus the Arkham combat kind of feel like you kind of like magnetize enemies. A little bit here and there. Yeah. you're not when you're using your shield, which I think is actually kind of a more interesting choice. So like if you're facing one way and somebody's att hacking you from behind, you can't like press the shield button to like and do a quick turn to flip around and block. You just need to dodge out of the way. I actually think that's the right choice There are so immediately, even just in the tutorial, they're hitting you with so many different ideas about what combat is supposed to be and they're mapping so many different actions to so many different buttons. It's like kind of hard to tell to do. This is the first game ever that has asked me to press the right bumper and the right trigger at the same time to pull up an action, which is like about as uncomfortable as anything. You do ever winter. never winter and stuff like that. Y. I feel like PC games that were ported to console in a weird way Yeah and they don't like they're like, I don't, just push these three buttons together to j whatever Yeah that's kind of what it feels like like almost demanding like the armored Corps like reverse claw grip to be able to play crs and Yeah. But you know, it's all stuff that you could also just ignore and probably not need to use that much Basically, this is the beginning of the game. This is like I swear to God the first ten minutes, so I'm sorry for spoiling this bit, but the main character dies right at the beginning. The leader of the Bear Kand takes him, shoves a knife in his gut, slices his throat and then throws him into a waterfall. And then you get this shot that just keeps showing up in every video game, which is know, Sora in the water kind of sinking down And you wake up in this like new tutorial zone, which is kind of I would say like forgotten city adjacent. like just it's a very beautiful kind of opulent looking place, where they're now teaching you like different platforming rules. So there's stuff like you can jump in the game, you can run and jump in the game, but you can also hold down the left bumper and then aim at the ground and then press a button and then that will do a precision jump, which will allow you to jump like exactly where you want Oh yeah, that was a thing I think in Crimson desesert Back desert Yes, sorry. ye, which I only know because of the Bart Simpson Monster Factory video, but early on in that game, there was like a just take me here button. for an MMO is like beautiful. Yeah That's great. Yeah. you know, but it sounds like it's maybe like this game's version of that feature. Yeah Deeply weird and also very funny to be using. Like I do find it to be like a comedic button prompt anytime I decide I'm gonna do a precision jump somewhere. becausecause it sometimes works also. Like sometimes I'll be like, okay, I'm gonna a precision jump like up this little cliff, and then I like land on the edge of the cliff and go like, and then fall off I love that shit. but anyway, you go through this whole phase and then you wake up on the side of this river and there's like a map maker who like fished you out of the river. You're like miraculously healed. You have a bunch of scars, like he has a big like scar where he got his throat slashed and stuff. but like he's miracously healed and he's alive. He he doesn't quite understand it. And this map maker basically points you in the direction of like a main town that's pretty close to you and gives you a horse to be able to, you know travel there by horse. And this little five minute bit, I think, encapsulates for me, the entire experience of Crimson Desert. And I imagine I could play for a hundred more hours and I would still feel this way about this five minute bit. But I was going over this bridge and I was just like jaw aape flooorered at the beauty of the world that they had built. And it's also the moment where they point out like how to open the map and see how big the world is. And I kept zooming out and I just I couldn't believe the size of the world that they had made. It's been you and I have talked about this for literally like ten fucking years on this podcast, but like I am so tired of like we put the biggest map ever in this in this open world game. you know, like that's a thing that has been played out for like five or six years at this point in this genre of game It's the first time in a long time where I zoomed out and like actually was shocked in the way that I think I was by marketing speak when they were announcing Skyrim. You know what I mean? Yeah. I was shocked by that. But then also just the vista that they had before me, like all of this different architecture that was disparate and like fascinating all in the distance, this like giant valley with beautiful waterfalls and fields of flowers. and I could see where there were like settlements and villages You know, smoke rising in the distance from like another settlement somewhere, maybe a campsite or something. And then to the other side was just this like gorgeous waterfall. And I was just so amazed at the view. And the map maker who was taking me to this village was like, we don't need to go so fast. L we could go slow here so you can take in the vista or else like what's even the point? I was like Wow, the game gets it. Like the game knows that this is what an open world game is all about. It's about this awe. You know, in the same way that No Man Sky is about the awe of space travel, like having this big fantasy world, you have to have moments that aren't like it can't just be combat and like being gritty and fucking Batman all the time. Like sometimes you need to have a moment of just appreciating the world. And for a game that I think is trying to be everything for it to have a moment of taking a pause and being like, take it all in was really moving in a way I wasn't expecting. And it was immediately followed by the game spawned in too many horses on the road. and there was there was a guy in a big carriage who blocked the end of the bridge. and then the NPC that I was supposed to be following was just like they were going like their horses heads were touching And they were just kind of like at an impasse, but they were both talking to me at the same time. And I was like, we're back in oblivion, man. like I'm getting every experience I want from this game all in this little five minute gap of like It's beautiful. I'm immersed. I'm so glad to be here and also the game can't help but be a video game Like for all of the realism you're going for, for every time you're trying to subvert the uncanny Valley, just a little system like too many horses on this bridge breaks it all down immediately. And I find that to be endearing more than anything else.. I think that's the thing. And's I think the big difference between you and me and a lot of other people when we talk about open world games and we talk about why oblivion was so important to The two of us is like there is a version of a game despite its best efforts being a video game that is more endearing than not because it's like you're trying your best, you know? Yeah, it's sort of like humorous hubris where it's know like in oblivion, it's like every NPC in this game is gonna have their own schedule In a presentation that sounds really impressive and then ends up being like, what's new with you? Goodbye. and then they face a wall for three to five on Turtis. But I think yeah, I think it just it's sort of like the I think games require a certain level of suspension or disbelief. and I think you and I are maybe a little bit against the idea of hiding the gamier parts of something. It depends on what you're going for Certainly, I don't want to see a level up Iicon and jingle play in the L of Us. Like there's some games where like it doesn't make sense to sort of obscure some things, but I also like when a game is able to embrace its gamees. Sorry, I just imagine like opening this like big attribute list. Yeah, I think I can improve my accuracy, you know? Yeah, exactly old can of beans knowledge plus five. But I like you know, something that I actually really liked about the first Godd of war, and we talked about this on our bonus about it or the twenty twenty. go of warar. Yeah. Also kind of the first one too, but specifically eighteen is eighteen is trying to tell this more like grounded last of us story, but you also like rip a dragon apart to a bunch of shiny collectibles. Yes know love When games can do that and embrace it. And yeah, because that's something that's specific to that's something you can't manufacture. And I think an open world game is more compelling to me when it's full of unmanufactured moments, when it has these kind of organic discoveries. That's what makes Skyrim so replayable is like you can walk on a road. certainly there are some moments in Skyrim that are etched into our brain you know, like there's a reason to so you're finally awake is like a meme constantly. Yeah. But like if you just walked on the road from White Run to Rifton, you'll probably see things you've seen before, but they'll be delivered in a different way or like you might stumble into a dragon the minute you enter a town and the dragon kills everyone there and suddenly you can't do those quests, like and Dragon Sagma leans fully into that to a point where like if your pawn has a cold, it's like the end of the world. Dragon Soagma too, you just throw them on the river. Yeah. This sounds really interesting. I mean, I think yeah, my main reason, I mean, not that we have to play everything new, but like the reason I kind of sort of wrote off Crimson Desert is like it just didn't appeal to me in its pitch. And also what was the story with like the AI use and its development? Like wasn't there st? Yeah there were some like background assets that I think they generated with AI and then replaced after people called them out on it. You know same fucking bullshit that's in all On one hand, it's annoying that that keeps happening where like they go like, oops, sorry and they replace it. But on the other hand, I'm like, I'm glad that the there I'm glad that the response to genererative AI is so universally negative, that the corporate rhetoric has had to turn from, isn't this amazing everybody? This can make anything And now it's like, we just used it a little bit. Is that okay? We're in this weird phase where it's like, we just you know, it's like, you know when you go into a meeting and like you're bored, we used it for that part of it. Is that okay? Right? And it's like, no, none of it, please. And also like, I mean, I think a good I certainly have a lot of concerns still. It's not like I'm I' fully optimistic that this will go away. although I do think it's telling that like a McDonald's commercial on the Super Bowl, like cartoonishly mainstream. Yeah, when that was generated that ad was fully generated with AI. And the response to that was so negative that McDonald's had to take it down and apologize And it's like when you're when the McDonald's out in the Super Bowl, like that doesn't fly. I think as long as there's like this level of rejection of it, I'm more hopeful that it can fuck off. you know. And also the fact that like there was recently, it was something like, I forgot what company it was, but basically like every executive pushing for AI also doesn't want it to be labeled as such because they know that if it's labeled as such Less people will get it. Like it dramatically impacts sales. So I'm hoping that steam doesn't relent with like, you know, if this needs to exist, which it doesn't, but like if you're so insistent that this exists, label it as such and see how it does. You know, it's like, see who who on earth wants this? And the answer is no one. is why they're trying to squeeze it into shit that was also Tim Sweeney at Epic is like, Oh, oh, but please please get rid of the AI marker on Steam. It It's hurting developers. It's like, okay, goo fuck yourself. Sorry Anyway, so that put me off from it, but I'm understanding they replaced it or at least they said they did. Yeah. Well, at least they said they did. Yeah, that's a good point. I' thinking I'm finding the game to be charming despite everything. Like what happens when you get to that village, that first village you go to is none of it really makes any sense. like Go to this tavern and arm wrestle this guy. No No one has told you that the tavern exists or that there's somebody to arm wrestle there. But you go and you arm wrestle the guy and he gives you one gold coin. You then go outside and the quest is like, give this gold coin to this beggar who is outside of this tavern So you give it to him. The old man then gives you a key and then turns into golden dust and disappears. And then suddenly you hear a woman crying out from inside a sewer and then you go down into the sewer and you save her. She's been like kidnapped. And then she also turns to golden dust and disappears. And then a bunch of side quests open where you can go do a bunch of stuff. And I'm like, am I having like is my character hallucinating like what What' happen whyy is all this stuff happening? And I was just like desperately confused by what was happening from a narrative perspective and why I was asking me to do things. And I had a moment where I was like, I'm tired of going and helping people at random and then having them disappear into gold dust without the game telling me why. I'm gonna go do some side quests and experience the open world of it all I talked to these two people at this blacksmith, One of them wanted iron ore and the other one wanted wood, which basically was just a way to teach you like you get a pick axe and you can use it to mine ore, you can get an axe and you can use it to like cut down any tree you see in the world, which is honestly pretty cool. And while I decided to go out into the forest, there was this like a giant, like a giant who was a traveling merchant who was walking along And I was in first person and just kind of like blown away again by the beauty of this world. I just thought it was like so stunning. And I was just walking alongside this giant because like again, in the first person mode, like it was so cool. It was such a great experience. And I decided I wanted to talk to this giant. And the giant said, foollow the lead of another and you lose your way. Follow your heart and you walk alone And I was like, this game can't help but be incredible every once in a while. Yeah a giant reading me his co star for the day is like all I need. I was just I was so into it. And then I went and started doing all these side quests and it just took me out into the world alongside like you know this like farmland and visiting other blacksmiths and merchants and stuff along the way and, you know, different enemies trying to attack me And stuff, you know, just like pulling agro and whatever. And I just found myself so taken by it. just I think it's really there is something really special here. And again, I think it's despite what the game itself is trying to do. It feels very much like that initial release of No Man Sky where like they would love to pitch you on fifty things that the game doesn't do, but what's actually there and the thing they're not focusing on is actually the important part And I think that one moment of the NPC telling me to like take a beat and look at the vista on this bridge is exactly the right feeling that Crimson Desert should be evoking more than can't you believe all the different things that you're capable of doing? Look at all these different systems. You can walk up to any bird and pick it up by the feet for some reason. Like none of that shit matters.ike it's funny that you can do it like it's not adding to my enjoyment of the video game as much as just this feeling of like I can I can interact with this person. I can look at this cool thing. I can just explore kind of to my heart's content. This is really reminded me of Shenmu. because I that's another game like is one of the earlier examples of the game that was like this is a new exper I forgot the name they use. It was like because Shenmu came out before the term open world was like commonly used. It had some kind of interesting acronym. But regardless, like Shenmu is a game we've talked about a lot that comes up a lot. It's on our Dreamcast episode. if you want to hear like full Shenmu thoughts, but Shenmu is a game where Yeah what was it called? It was called free, Full Reactive Eyes Entertertainment Yes. It's a free game. costs as much as a Dreamcast game costs But yeah, like that game is similar to Oblivion in a lot of ways where it's like every like every day is like the weather it was in that year in that part of Japan, E person has like a whole backstory and their own schedule function when you talk to them, they're like, yeah, don't I didn't see the guy in the limo. Why don't you try talking to this other person? And like they don't tell you where they are. And you just have to like go find the map and look at the map in first person. You just have to Yeah to dial yourself. Dial a phone with like, you know, individual number It always stands out to me is when you pick up the phone, you have to like hit the keys individually. Yes. It's the kind of thing where it's like You know, like as in visual art, if you're like drawing something, it is inherently your point of view. E if you're trying to like realistically capture the subject of the drawing, you on some subconscious level are choosing what to highlight, what to show what's a not show. L For example, everyone has like the lines sort of like what would be our snout, like the lines from your nose to your chin around your mouth. Everyone has those lines regardless of how old you are. But if I were to draw you with those lines, it would make you look like an old man. Right indicate age, right? Yeah. so it's like, okay, there are just some things you like Knowingly or not choose to leave out to achieve the goal of the drawing. And I think the same is true for game design where it's like, okay, or when I'm running a D and D game, I will, you know, with my players ahead of time with the group, I'll be, okay, like we'll build the world together. and then I'll also be like, okay, do we want to worry about like hunger this game, like yes or no, you know, And like usually not because basically, you know, I've mentioned this many times, but like the rule book of D and D Fifth Edition opens with something saying like I'm paraphrasing, but it's like, use these rules as they benefit your campaign. You know, use the rules that give like value and meaning to the game you want to run. If you use every rule, it's not gonna like W You know, like having to worry about how hungry I am while also like it's just like I'm only gonna to worry about hunger if I'm running a campaign where like survival is a aspect of it. Like for example, like No Ms Sky, you have to worry about your oxygen and your suit because that's what the game is about. It's about exploring in space But like you don't have to worry about oxygen in Mario Galaxy because that's not what the game is about, you know. I it's an obvious example, but it's like I think that's what makes the alchemy of a game like Crimson Desert or Shenmu or Oblivion so fascinating is because they are drawing the face with the lions. They are doing everything and you kind of learn by playing it Both the beauty and the mistakes of that ambition is, I guess my larger point. Yeah. I will say that some you laughed at me during that, so I hope that made any kind s. About halfway in, I remembered we were recording a podcast Because usually I just feel like we're just having a chat. Yeah. But there was a moment halfway in where I was like, oh my God, I just I was looking at you on video. Yeah. I was like, there's a little man in a box talking to me and we're recording a podcast together. L Is that all I am to you, Brendon, a little man in a box? I just I just became like hyper aware of the fact that like we're talking via webcams over the internet Recording that information, then we're going give it to people. Yeah. You know what I mean? I love it goes through your head during a conversation. I just that has basically only happened to me like once before. And I think it was when I was recording third I opened. Yeah, I was recording with John and Federico who do like Max Stories podcasts, which I've been listening to for years. and then when I recorded them for the first time, I like forgot that I was also pres I've had that I've had that kind of like almost associating like, oh, I'm actually doing this. Yeah. anyyway. point On point about the face with the lines of it all, justust to be clear. that was it was a great salient point. You made it very well, but maybe that's what happened was like it broke like It broke containment of a normal conversation. I was like, this is a podcast, baby. Now this is podcast. this is podcast It sounds, I mean, we have it on steam now, so I can check it out at some point. I think I'll probably enjoy the elements of it you're enjoying based on what you shared here. I think so too. I definitely want to play a lot more of it. I want to get closer to the point that people start to say like clicks for them, which for my understanding is pretty Dep in but I'm willing to give it that time because a lot of people will be considering it for Game of the Year this year and I kind of want to know. I've said to many people, including GO and Polygon that to me, it's like a professional curiosity in the same way GTA six is going to be for me where it's like, I'm going to play that game. I just have to know. You know what I mean? Yeah I think that's where you and I differ a little bit, but I am curious on some level But yeah, I'll check it out at some point. I love that shared steam library for exactly this reason. Yeah, totally. So we'll see. But it sounds cool. I love the giant telling US horoscope. It was really great. It was really good. Oh that was immediately followed by me talking to two NPCs who had the same voice and said the same voice line to me. that's my shit. whichich was very oblivian. Yeah that's extremely oblivion Yeah. What's new with you, myself. It was good. Let's take a break and we come back. we got another game. Sounds good. Bye. Bye bye Stephven, I hear you have some full reactive eyes entertainment for me. I do. It was funny. you accidentally set up Delta Roe pretty well with your meta littleittle man in a box and just the aspect of like the separation between the player and the player character. Yes. I have played and finished the fifth chapter of Deltar Roun God bless you L week. I've realized now, so Deltaun has been coming out in chapters since twenty eighteen. And literally every time what happens is Toby Fox you know, announces the new chapter, usually pretty close to when it comes out. He knows that people will make conspiracies out of anything he posts online. so I think he keeps he's pretty close I' going to tell you when it's out. This is not me cosplaying as gaster. It's just an announcement. Leave me alone U Basically whenever adults R and chapter comes out, I stop everything, without even realizing it. like my third eye opens, I stop everything. I sit down, I play it in one sitting and then I move on with my life. Like I have never maybe chapter four took like two sittings because three and four were released at once last year. There will be seven chapters in total Although in typical Toby Fox fashion, there may be more than meets the eye in terms of what that means. this will not be spoiler. We to get to like Kingdom Heart's naming conventions at a certain point with Delta Rune. You're not far off. Delta Rune seven point eight fininal chapter prorologue. You're not far off. I can't spoil it, but you're on the right track. I do think it will be seven, but it seems like there's more mystery than meets the eye as per usual. Yeah, I guess just to deelta rooms fascinating to me because like if you look at any, you know Digital store for games, it's huge. Like Deltone is always like, if you just click like RPGs in steam, especially when a new chapter drops, it will be like top of the list next to personersona five. Yeah. Yet I do think the fact that it's been released episodically has for better and for worse, prevented it from being like the main topic of discussion Like Undertale was for like a solid year. Yeah, totally. You know. And I think I think overall that's helped the game because I think Utale was such a unpredictably huge thing. And you know, like anything that gets that big, it goes through these phases of like, it's huge and then it's so big that people are like sick of it and then it becomes cringe for some reason And then eventually it settles back to being, oh, wait, this is actually great. Yeah. like no matter who you are, it happens to everybody. It happens I feel like we're at that point with personersona five where like if you just post online like I like personersona five, people be like Really? You should play a real video' idiot. Yeah, you should play I mean I have played both and personersona five is really what I've learned during this show and also like Do a lot of these console episodes is like, yes, there are often games that don't get the credit they deserve, especially now when discoverability is such an issue.ally. But often things are popular for a reason. L it's not an accident that Persona fiveive is like one of the best selling RPGs ever. It's a good game. you know. Like sometimes you go f circle where it's Smosat Tent Spirit is actually the best Nirvana song. sorry. like it just there's a reason why it was the like sometimes there's a reason why there's a hit, you know? Yeah. you know, like like my there's an instinct, I think to sometimes present one's opinion as like a rare Pokemon card. And it's like I get the desire to want to stand out when we do these conle episodes I bristle when my top five just looks like metacritics, you know, five highest games, but it's like like you say, there's value in playing one hundred forty DS games and going, it turns out Pokemon is really good. I'm sorry. It turns out like Mario and Pokemon are amongst the better games on the DS. I'm so sorry. Part of the human experience is relating to other people's human experience Part part of that human experience is everyone agreeing that Pokemon is fucking good, Dg. But then you get Hatsworth. everyatwth. For every Pokemon reinforcement, you find a Hatswth. and it's always worth it. Tp It's always hats worth it. So anyway, Deltaoon is the follow up to Undertale, let's say. I think Ogoing mysteries is how it relates to Undertale. If you haven't played Undertale, we have a whole bonus about Undertale. I would recommend playing Undertale. It remains one of my favorite games and I think even if the like stick of it has been spoiled for you, there's a good chance it has at this point. It's still worth experiencing for yourself. I think you would back me up in that. abbsolutely would. Yeah. I knew most of the stuff that was going on in Undertale And I still had a great time with it when we played it for the bonus. It's a really, I think it's like, you know, the game pitches itself as the RPG where no one has to get hurt. And the mechanic it immediately introduces is like when you, you know, it's a turn based RPG, although when you're attacked, it turns into like a bullet hell minig game. so you have to like avoid the enemy attacks. So it gets more creative with that over time Oh my Godd, we did our Delta Roune bonus for Patreon twenty twenty one. Four years ago. Yeah. Yeah my go. O was it five years ago? twenty twenty two. o. That's a long time ago. Yeah, that's I mean, That's amazing. I was talking to a friend of the show, Sadie, who Sadie and I are going be recording a Patreon episode full spoilers about Delta Rune chapters three through five in the near future So if you're interested in that, you and I will do something, I think when it's over, probably. Yeah I amm putting my foot down and saying I want to play the whole thing. You're gonna to wait til it's done. I want waitil' done. Yeah. I think I think that's the move because honestly, if I have any feedback, which like Toby Fox is truly one of the few individuals I would never have the confidence to give feedback to, he's just too good at what he does. But like I am getting a little antsy Like as someone who has played this from the very beginning, before it was even for sale, this was announced like Toby just tweeted like, hey, I'm working on something. and it was a sketchy link that I would never click if it was anyone else. And it said in a pop up, you must accept everything from now on or something like very ominous It was Delta R and chapter one.es, released for free. And then even by chapter two, which came out three years later, it was still being pitched as a demo. att that point you can get it on steam and on Switch and other consoles. But like it was like chapter one and two demo. And I think at that point, Toby and Team were deciding whether or not to wait until it was mostly done or to release it episodically. And I think it's been cool to play episodically. It's been fun to be like part of the conversation, like share theories with people, talk about, you know where you think the story is going. But you know, it's been eight years and chapter five was remarkable. I have a lot of good things to say, But when it gets to the end and it's still kind of a cliffhanger, I'm like Toby we have two more chapters left. L I need I've been teased for eight years at this. Like I think it will work in the context of the full work, you know? Like I have no doubt that will that this was the right move for the story. 'cause he's also said that this is basically the calm before the storm. This is sort of like the final like fun chapter Before the finale really kicks up. story really ramps up, yeah. So I appreciate that. but also like just like you said, like we recorded our bonus on it four years ago. I think as someone has been playing along, I'm starting to get a little antsy, but I think it will be worth it. I have no doubt that it will be worth it in the end. Yeah, Undertale is largely about player choice and the central mechanic is that when you encounter monsters, you're a human who has fallen into this like Alice in Wonderland world, basically And you encounter monsters and you can either kill them or spare them. And I feel like that game, we said this a lot on the bonus, like that game Undertale came out towards the tail end of like moral decisions being a kind of zeitgeisty word in AAA design. Like in the late two thousands, you have games like infamous And Bioshock and Mass Effect even, Hoti Miami Spec upps the line, all these games that are about like being good or bad or making decisions, the telltale games, like all these games that obviously like the idea of roleplaying and choice driven narratives existed well before then. but there were a lot of games in that sort of late two thousands, early twenty thousand ten s that were specifically about like, ooh, you're a bad person for playing this game. know that kind of way of approaching it. R. And Undertale feels like the definitive end of that conversation. Like I cannot think of a game that explores that idea of like moral choices and the player's like responsibility for the choices they make. I't think of I don't think any other game has done it maybe second like maybe moon was closeed to underndertale under and off as well as a similar thing. But even an off, I think it's like out of your control. Anyway, I'm veering on spoilers, but underndertale is a really, really truly profound experience. And I played it at a time, like I mentioned, you know, when we're talking about No Man Sky, I had fallen off of games and honestly when that game came out not to get too personal, but like I was in such a bad, depressive episode that I was struggling to even enjoy playing video games. L I remember feeling relieved when I got to the point where I could play Skyrim and have a fun time becausecause I was unable to do that for like six months. And Undertle found me at that time and like really helped me through a lot of what I was working through. And I think a lot of people had a very like personal experience with that game because it is such a personal project. It's, you know, largely made by just Toby Fox. Obviously there other people helped them with it. like Temmy Changg did some of the art and like, you know, even a solo develop product is still a collaborative thing, but like for the most part, it was coming from his perspective. And I think that really resonates when someone I think when anyone makes something that is kind of like their soul literally on display, I think it connects to people. I think that's why, you know I've been thinking lot about Ghibli because our friends are doing Gibli series, but I'm also always thinking about Gibli. I also think it's really cool talalking about like hits as well I always wonder, I like, why is it that Spirited Away is the hit? You know, I obviously have a lot of hits at Ghibli, but like that was the movie that kind of broke through R. And I would argue having seen all of Miyazaki's films, that is his least accessible work. Like I think that that is like in some ways the hardest movie to like recommend, not because it's like inappropriate, but it's because it's like the most abstract of all of them And yet, I think there's something about that movie that feels like he channeled something within us all that just like spoke to us on a like a sub spiritual level. Yeah. And I think when something manages to do that, it kind of breaks through any like marketing or calculated reason why something will do well and just ends up doing well It's not common, but it does happen. And Undertale was one of those moments where like, you know, ten out of ten on IGN and it becomes like this huge game for streamers and then it really explodes at that point. And again, I think starts to become kind of toxic in some corners of the internet. But you know, I think having that experience with Undertale and being so moved and inspired by it And then also knowing that Toby had said like that experience stressed him out and like kind of made him like hide away from the world for a bit. And the fact that he came back with another game at all, not to mention one that was like connected to that world. I wish I could replicate the feeling to you and anyone listening of like being that into Undertale and then him tweeting one day By the way, here's a sketchy link and it turns out to be this like weird sort of sequel to that game. Delta Roun has been like a really great time. I think it will end up being the superior work by the end, not to put them against each other. I just think he's like grown as an artist and as a writer since Undertale I really love what's going on in Deltarun. I think what's really smart about Deltar Rune too is that it's not as it's not exploring the same stuff. Like I do think it's important to play Undertale first because so much of Delta Rune is like, how does this connect? Like, oh my go, it's that character again, but in a different context. like, oh my god, this like The word you know, phrases like but nobody came start to become like ingrained in your subconscious that when you see them, he's very good at teasing these mysteries and they're often like, and it's so funny 'cause he's also a shit poster. So you'll end up in Ernest saying things like, you know, Spampton said in passing, like the phrase that like you know, Stinky the cat said at the end of this route. And it's like, wait, let's listen to ourselves But yeah, I just think it exploring new ideas, specifically the idea of control. Like if Undertale was all about choice and like repercussions of your choices, Delt Run is all about like who is in control of the main character, who should be in control to the point where like In case you didn't get it in chapter three, there's a whole sequence where you and the core trio, Chris Suusie and Ralie are playing a NES Zelda version of Deltaroune, where they're all playing as their own characters. then at one point you switch controllers. So everyone's controlling different people. fun. And I think that's all I'm comfortable sharing about Deltarune without veering into spoilers, that That shift of like thinking about control and identity versus just moral choices was really smart. because I think there's a weaker version of Delta Ro that's like the same concept with a new cast, you know? Yeah. Yeah, even the opening moments of chapter one where they ask you to like create a character and name them stuff and they're like, fuck off idiot. This isn't that kind of game. I think is really powerful in term of just immediately kind of planting a flag in the ground in terms of what kind of thematic territory they're going to explore. F undertake. Yeah. And that just kind of gets expanded on further and further in. I've still only played chapters one and two for our Patreon bonus that we did four years ago. But I am Dying to play the rest. Like I just to be clear, when I say I'm putting my foot down and waiting u til the rest of it's over, like that's to prevent myself from you know frothing at the mouth and playing the rest of it. I did rep because I think I played it initially on Switch. I repurchased it on Steam so I could play the whole thing there eventually, but I just can't I can't do it to myself. I can't play that in early access and not see the end. I know it's going to bother me to have to wait too long. I think it's yeah, it's been interesting. It's also been kind of frustrating because like I also, you know, I played chapter one via that weird link. and then I think I got the demo. and then when three and four came out, I bought the full game on swwitch So I've had to like start like you can get Deltarun in to start any of the chapters. and it will like it won't carry over everything possible, but you'll largely get the bulk of what you need. Like if you recruit there's a similar spare system where like if you spare characters you run into, you can recruit them for your castle town, which you can visit in between chapters and just like talk to everyone who's there And because the idea of Delta Run is that like there is a light world and a dark world. And the light world kind of looks like an earthbound like town. It's like very brightly colored. And that's where you see this like almost idolized version of like, if the cast of Undertale all lived in like a peaceful RPG town, this is kind of what it would look like So even though it's largely about new characters, that's what I mean by you should play Undertale first because that's going mean a very different thing if you have an attachment to those characters. And the dark world resembles more of what Undertale looked like, which raises a lot of questions. And there's an implication that or there's an understanding both amongst people from the light worldor and the Dark worldorld that the dark worldor is fake That like it is an artificial creation. And it's reinforced by the idea that like the dark worldorld in the first chapter is made in the school and specifically in a room full of like board games and card games. Y. So that world is like composed of game pieces. It's very Els in Wonderland. Yeah, And it's also acknowledging that like this is a game U and then in chapter two is Then chapter three is And then four is a And five is So what's interesting is that like even though in the dark world, everyone acknowledges that it's in some ways artificial, it clearly has some kind of like matrix connection to the light world. It's like there are stakes in some ways. And I think that's kind of one of the major mysteries is like, okay, if the dark world has meaning, then how real or fake is the light world? R? Especially considering The story of Undertale is like a human falls down a mountain and ends up in this world of monsters in the underground. And it's very cleanly divided because like we technically are the human and we are in this other world, that is the game. So in some ways, the human world in Undertale is like our reality and the world of monsters is the game R And in Delta Rin, we have kind of three realities where it's like there's the world they acknowledge as the real world, and then there's the world they acknowledge as the fake world. But we have this sort of curse of knowing kind fake. So lots to true on there. I will say about chapter five, I won't go into spoilers on what it's about, Every chapter so far, like the combat works in a similar way to Utale where it's turn based and it's a bullet hell Yeah. But Undertale was from a fixed first person point of view. and Delta Run is like Chrno trigger where you see like three characters from a third person point of view Yeah. And I would say the combat is like the clear improvement over really Delta Rune combat is really compelling And it's fun to have three people in the team and to have that camaraderie between the main trio. they play off each other really well. But in addition to the bullet health stuff, there's usually some additional like starting in I would say it's been a while since I played chapter two, but I would say starting in chapter three specifically, there's like usually an additional mechanic of some kind So chapter three kind of has like almost like guitar hero segments that are really fun. F introduces like uncharted climbing, which works like surprisingly well. It's really amazing how like cinematic the climbing is in Deltarun. And then in chapter five, there are segments where you hit a switch and as you're walking around, the perspective shifts So it becomes a side scrolling, like action platformer. And that those segments are so good. I almost wish the whole game was that because it works surprisingly well as like a side scrolling like beat 'em up platformer, especially when you can like your friends have cooldowns so you can like order them to do their moves at certain times. It's really good. And the secret boss Every chapter is a secret boss. I truly think Toby has stumped the world with who they chose to be the secret boss. because there's always theories of like who it's going to be. Yeah. And I don't think any it's like when we fit trarainer was added to smash. It's like a total all But I'm going to keep the rest for that recording with Sadie because I think it's hard to talk about the story without getting into spoilers, but I'm really excited for you to catch up. and I just think it's cool to see how this game kind of reinents it solve chapter by chapter. Yeah, I'm excited to get there. think I think one of the things I'm just curious, maybe you would know this better than me Have they done anything to change the way the the first chapters play when they release a new chapter? Like when chapter five comes out, is there anything different about one through four? That's a great question. No. There have been some like patches and some very, very minor changes. like there was one moment of the story In chapter four, where like different imagery is shown because I think a lot of people misinterpreted what was being implied and Toby was, Oh, wait that actually wasn't what I wasn't the intention to imply. So there's stuff like that, but overall I think although knowing Toby Fox, you saying that raises a lot of questions because like I do think that it wouldn't be outlandish to think that there would be like secrets added A the fact. Yeah Yeah,'s that's why I was asking because I was thinking about the other game that I have been playing in eararly Access as has been updated, which is Scarlet Hollow, which does change the game pretty dramatically every time they release new content. They'll go back into chapters, you know, what all of the early and more stuff to kind of change the the branching paths of it all. I was just curious if there was anything that they were doing there because that that to me would make it worth playing as it was releasing chapter by chapter because then I could have this experience of like following along as it gets updated. Yeah this this is more akin to Kentucky route Zero. like this is literally being released episodically versus like early access. Yeah. I don't There's any there's been any changes other than like like you can if you have basically like for everything to carry over between chapters, you should have a safe file that starts in one and goes to five. I might end up replaying it from one to do all the secret bosses and have that carry over because I start in three and they're not it's daunting to do that, but I might end up doing it once it's all done I might just start from one when it's like finished and go through it all. Yeah. But yeah, no, if you if you if that was your concern, then you should definitely catch up because it's just episodic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. no, more so. I would have played it if they were changing stuff every time, I guess. Oh, what is actually happening which is when it's done, it'll just be done and I could just play the whole thing Yeah, yeah. And I also think it will be done soon based on what Toby Fox has shared, it seems like chapter six will probably be coming out next year. and I think it will probably end up being a ten year endeavor. Yeah. So I imagine we'll get the last chapter either next year or twenty twenty eight. Amazing. which is exciting because yeah It was also like, yeah, the time between one and two was three years because one was twenty eighteen and then two was twenty twenty one. And then it was another it was actually four years between chapter two and three. So I did appreciate that chapter three is kind of like a last time on Delta Rune chapter. I actually I forgot who Anancer was somehow. and I love him. I don't know how I did that Yeah, I would definitely need to replay it if I wanted to jump into any of them. Yeah, but it's a great time And I'm already jumping back into No M man Sky, Steven, so I can't also play Delta Room. I would say, yeah, at least wait for the next chapter. Maybe that could be fun to do one through six and then wait for the last one. I think knowing myself, that is what I'll do. I'll play one through six and then when seeven comes out I'll jump into that. You'll do it. Yeahah. But it's great There's a very active Deltaroun channel in the Discord as well if you want to share your theories on. Apparently there's a whole like it's funny, you know, I missed my experience with Undertale was very solitary because none of my friends were playing. It was kind of just something I went through. And I had no idea what was happening online around it. I just missed that well And with Delta Roun, I similar thing, it's more social, more people I know are playing it. And now, you know, more of my friends are into it at this point. I think it's going to blow up when it's over. I think that's going to be the moment where Delta Roe kind of has like the undertale moment. because I do think people are waiting or they're maybe confused what it is or how it's being released. But anyway, all this to say, like I've now been checking like various Reddit threads and conversations about it. and it's so funny to like my experience playing chapter five and having the thoughts I had at the end versus what like people are talking about online is like, oh, if you've been like soaking in conspiracy theories for years, you're going to have a very different reaction to this like for context, there's been a whole like Apparently Toby Fox tweeted something about a cowboy and there was a whole theory about like Woody and like the tooy story connection to Delta Roun. Yeah. 'use there's a character named Friend and they're like Friend inside me and like what that relates to playayer control. I'm like I'm kind of glad I'm also not fully online with this. Yeah. I do think like that's fun To have these and that's part like Toby Fox knows everyone's doing that. and like I think the mystery is a big part of it, but I also think there's a level where if you're setting expectations based on popular fan theories, you're going to be disappointed with what ends up actually happening. You know, So I think there's there's a middle ground there. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're probably right. That's all I got for now my friend. Delt Thanks listening to me. That's Delton in Chapter five. It's good time That's number way. Youver see thatip? I did. ye, that's Michell and Wb. Yeah. I will say the day before this episode comes out, there's a Splatoon Raiders direct. Oh no. I'm really pumped. That's like that. That went from a game that I kept forgetting was happening to one of my most anticipated games Yeah. I'm not sure why that happened at the end of July, I'm very excited about it. Its july twenty third When Mercury goes direct, that's when Splatoon Raiders comes out. The other Nintendo game coming out next month, by the way, is a Rhythm Heaven. that comes out on july second. Did you play the demo? No, that comes out like like in a couple days when this episode comes out, right? I play the demo. How'd you like it? I'm still really bad at it. I don't know what it is about Rhythm Heaven I'm so horrible at. I have pretty good rhythm. I don't know what it is abouthythm Heaven But you gott to have great rhythm. I have to have great rhythm. Pret good, doesnn't cut in out Yeah. I'm rhythm Earth and I need to reach rhythm no one. I'm Ridthm Midgar, the realm of mortals. All right, let's wrap. Thank you so much for listening to the Cast that Online is our website. All relevant links are there. If you like the show, the best way to help it grow is to share with a friend. you can also rate and review us on your podcast app of choice. and you can support the show directly at patreon. com slash into the cast. I'm still plugging away on Pragmada so for patrons that Calcom double feature will happen at some point in the near future. But I am directly recording that Deltarun episode with Sadie this week. and so that should be coming out in the next week or so for patrons on the five dollar tier or higher. Yeah, it's a lot to look forward to this summer. I'm excited for new releases. I'm excited to catch up on my backlog. I'm playing a lot of PS one stuff that I'm excited to chat about but I'm keeping it for the episode. I wanted to draw a I in handander Starfox connection That will simply have to wait. Unfortunately, that yeah we're going have to put that on the back burner. I will say too, should we share our I know we share this on Soreleave, maybe we should share on the public feed. Yeah yeah we didn't mention that at all. There's new episode Shlelyave th. Well, thats too. There's a new episode of Sort'll listen to on Patreon. But I was going to say we set a recording date for the PS one premiere that will be recorded on august twenty ninth. so a little bit later than usual And the idea is that will come out most likely on september ninth. Nice. And we're going to take a few weeks off leading up to that. So likely August will be like the first week or two. you'll have regular episodes coming out and then in the lead up to the premiere, we'll be taking a little bit of a break. Any percent and sure leave will still be coming out. Yes. But just for summer vacation and for other things, we will be taking that time off for ourselves and we'll be coming back With the big premiere and also like a week later, firem comes out. So I can't think of a better return to the Aher Y than those two things. The one two punch of the Aher. The one two punch. Anything else we should say before we wrap up? I don't think so. I think that's it. This is a fun episode, Brendon. Thank you as always for making the show with me. Thanks to Starf. Thanks Starfox. Thanks Pigma. Thanks Pigma Thanks Bill and Kat, underrated allies of the Star Fox. Absolutely. Let's take it home, folks. See you next week. Have a good one. B