The Future of Modern Relationships

She said, I love fairy tales. I say girl, you don't need to be here. You need to be. Back. in the safe bosom of your parents home. She would be a great bachelorette. You came to Lve Ireland talk. They're gonna make you suck cake off of a man's toes, baby This is not the place to come for fairy tales. Hello, hello I'mrittney Lu and you're listening to It's Bin A Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident Love Island USA has taken America by storm At face value, it's a show where objectively gorgeous singles are tasked with finding their perfect match. But what I've noticed is that this show is more than reality TV It's a microcosm of our daating culture. Who we love, are norms around dating, and what is and isn't acceptical behavior?. I spoke with awards editor Indy Wire, Marcus Jones, and Joh Colin Hill, host of the podcast, Eplain it to me to wade into the discourse of Love Island and why we can't stop watching or talking about this show. John Colin, Marcus, welcome back It's been a minute. It's good have you both back It is great to be here. Oh, I'm so happy to have y' all here. You don't even know. This is like I wait for this time of year all year round. so I'm thrilled to be here. We're gonna be discussing loveove Island, yes But really more so the discourse around this year's season of Love Island USA, which It's interesting. But the two things that make Love Island, I think really like grappby for even for people who are super into reality TV already are that like the editing style is hilarious. It has this very it's much more wry and funny than you would expect. And they pick up in all these little different idiosyncrasies and sort of like in between moments of like everybody a cast. another big thing that I love about Love Islet is the discourse around it. I mean, because you are Unlike like, I always say like, I don't know, loveve Island. It's like the narratives are end up being really, I think in a way richer than a lot of other reality TV shows because they're not just like Hly producing and filming a bunch of stuff like for six to eight weeks and then cutting it all up later and deciding what the storylines are in advance, right Yeah No, we are watching these people sort of plod along day by day. We see genuine friendships emerge. We see like genuine romantic feelings emerge. And also too like because you're clocking with these people every single day, you could start to see when some people move a little dastardly. And I think that makes for a really rich and fun discourse around Love Island But I wonder, how would each of you describe The discourse around Love Island USA this year O o. I will say u I think one of the things that's interesting about Love Island is it starts around the time the end of the NBA finals And I so right you're so right. I I don't the other. I don't think I realized it until this year. A lot more straight men are watching this season. Yeah And I say That has created some interesting discourse and I think for a long time, Love Island USA. It's not just for women, but it a lot of time it's for the girls. and there's a lot of stuff entering now That is not just for the girls and it's made the conversation I don't know, a little different this time around. I definitely see that. What are you noticing Marcus in this year's Love Island USA discs? Yeah. For some reason, the words that came to mind were like, guards, get 'em. Like these people Chrice passast? Yeah. but it's just it's sort of, I think The first thing they do is introduce us to the contestants. And from the very starting point, there were already people who didn't make it into the house because people's first reaction was can what kind of dirt can I find out about these people before I invest any time with them and On one sense, I get the intention on another level, like really can't say that's the first thing I would do. I don't really watch a TV series with sort of my phone out trying to research every one of the contestants lives. Like I like what it I'm just trying to pay attention to what's on screen I agree. I don't necessarily I don't want to go on like a fishing expedition for like who should get like yanked out. And this is not to defend that being No, no, no, no. But I get what you're talking about You talking about the impulse to as soon as you learn like a possibly soon to be famous person's name to go on like a digging expedition. There is something about that impulse to sort of like I don't know, to constantly be on some sort of like search mission that does it's giving surveillance state. It's giving surveillance state. I was gonna just say like the point I was sort of making and bringing that up is that So I think Love Island gives us an opportunity to have some really healthy conversations about sex and dating, and I really love that aspect of it. What I haven't appreciated this season and especially last season because I think it all stems from that. that was a cast of characters CC seven by It's starting to feel like there's this default to receive things or receive people in bad faith. And so it's treating it like This person is on violin My first impulse is to see what's wrong with them. and My first impulse is to enjoy myself. We're in Fiji, let's go. We are in Fiji Yes.. They are thking it so much. I think in a way I was actually saying this to a friend because She watched a recent episode and she did not like the vibes in the villa She was saying, o, this is not good, this must end. I do not like the way these people are acting. And my response was, this is some of the best television I've ever seen. Okay, so I'm glad you're bringing that up because it's like a really great opportunity, I think for us to discuss sex and dating. Chances are if you are watching this video or if you're listening to this episode, are decently versed in what generally is happening on Lve Island. But to give you just a short sort of quick rundown, there are a bunch of sexy singles who are in a villa and they're trying to find their best match so that those matches compete. And then the couple that America likes the most winning a hundred thousand dollars. It's a good opportunity for them to make money. The longer you stay on the show, the more money possibly you could make because America falls more in love with you. And so sometimes though the men in the show act like they forget that they are being recorded. They are making disparaging comments about the women, putting that like you know some women down so they can maybe perhaps have a chance with others And they're moving in a way that a lot of people describe as very inell or red pill. And I have to say, there are some sort of like patterns of behavior and communication like production has sort of pulled out a bunch of stops to give the women on the show the opportunity to adjust their behavior by being exposed to maybe things that the guys didn't think that they would see. And it's made for great television, as you have both pointed out alsoso there's all the it's attracted All these straight men typically are not watching the show and who are emboldened by some of this Uh kindind of misogynistic and kind of pig headed behavior that we're seeing from the men on the show And it has started a discourse on discourse on discourse of defending some of the guy's worst behavior, things that like are really just unacceptable in real life. They're trying to sort of twist around and find ways to explain a way. Oh yeah, I would say big conversation that I've seen are around two islanders Casey. And Ania. I was very I was very big on them individually going in. Me too Um there you you see sort of anxious and avoidant pattern play out and you see people's response to that, you see someone who is people pleasing and you see that the way that people pleasing can actually be harmful and hurt feelings and cause the person who does the people pleasing to have resentment U, and just the response has been Wh y old T see. U just the amount of digging hills in, the amount of behavior that is bad that people will defend because, you know, maybe someone was not their best self earlier on, that that's been very wild to witness Yeah, I mean, also too, like it has u, I feel like it's also like I should mention For those who may not know, Casey and and I are both black people. But these are two of like the darker skinned people in the entire villa at the beginning of the season and in some ways throughout the rest of the season. And And then you've got like colorism conversations.ve got arere men trying to humble women convers, highigh value manen conversations, hashtag black love conversations you know, hash txts, whir agenda conversations that are happening that maybe before, I got to say that none of these things were being talked about. These conversations are not new, I think, to the discourse. They're not new to the discourse around the show It's just who's participating in them and how that has been really notable Coming up after the break. I think a lot of black women in particular, dark skinned bllack women, they want to see a love story that they are centered in. They want to be picked, they want Like, hey, give me the romance, give me X,YZ Stick around Marcus, what have you been seeing? I think to the point that you're getting about sort of the new crowd is a basterization of this idea that the point to be on the show is to explore to explore your relationship. Everyone's saying, oh, if someone moved on to a different person, isn't it their right to explore? Isn't that the point of the show to test your relationships? And if someone new comes in and you get along well with them, then it's your right to recouple with that person And I think particularly The difficulty in the Kasey and and I relationship is sort of a broader thing of this is the third season in a row were the dark skinned black woman representation in the House saw the man that they had the strongest connection with going into Casa M and then bring someone back. But the difficulty of this part is that we are seeing a situation where She is The communication just wasn't there She I mean, people are saying anxious, Avoidant. I think my personal take on Anaya is that She had an inkling that Casey wanted to explore and the conversation that she was trying to have with him was Don't look at me as the obstacle in this situation. If you want to go explore, please explore. because I know that if you don't do what kind of clearly want to do, even if you're not explicitly saying it, you are building up resentment towards this connection And we see as soon as he leaves the villa Yeah, this shock conn ofver. They pump in for those of you who don't know, Casa Mor is like a portion. It's like a part of the season. It's the ultimate test. It is spectacular Yes where they new set. They put the boys in this place called Casa Moor, which looks kind of like a a different sort of version of the villa where tyypically, they're all living together The girls stay in the villa They pump new girls into Casa, where they pump new guys into the villa And everybody has the opportunity to explore or test their relationship and their faithfulness. There's a respectful way to explore, and that's sort of the building block of the show is that this is like ethical non monogamy island. It's your moment to date multiple people and test the relationships. And the thing that you have to do that we really haven't been seeing this season is approach both parteies and tell them what's up Um, But yeah, I mean, you know, and every year it's the same thing that happens. The guys go to Casa more and they treat it like a bachelor trip He And then the women stay in the villa and they actually have ull like they're also allowed to explore and do what they need to do. Like Casey, this guy, he brought this other woman back to the villa And we' got Anaya who' standing there alone, which creates this whole opportunity for humiliation and all of her anxieties, I insecurities really bubbled up. And she had some people fighting for her, but there were also some people who were like laughing at her. I mean, it's kind of a nightmare scenario justust being real nightmare scenario should could have avoid. I just wan to say that I always say Canon event, It just is unfortunate that the cananon event happened on on TV.. I w should it had happened on a college campus. Yeah, that's supposed to happen on the floor of your dorm room. Aside from like what's happening on the show, how have you seen this sort of changing audience like affect the discourse that's happening as we're seeing this relationship between Casey and and I in particular play out People are defending Kasey by saying like he has a right to explore. And so it's like, oh yeah, well like he built her up and then it's his right to move on to the next girl. like he found a better connection Well, it That may be the case. It's not his right to build her up to her face and break her down behind closed doors And I think a lot of the reactions were celebrating like, oh, like Casey hass found someone who sees him as a prize and like found someone to build him up. And it's these conversations about like dating from different socioeconomic statuses and a lot of projection Oh because Ana is from like a pretty well off family her Yeah The class thing is so Oh my God, like no one has really talked about it. Anya's friend Melanie hinted at it a little bit when she was giving her pep talk where she was like, Hey, you're going to have to build that man up. but I think class difference. that is that's the the conflict and no one's No one in the vill is talking about it. We're talking about it, but no one in the vill is talking about it. kind of like this perfect sort of storm of all of these different like dating expectations, dating stressors ing drama Um, but also, like you mentioned, sort of int rac intr racial class colorism, feuturism, desirability discussions. I think that's a lot of it. I think a lot of black women, in particular dark skinned black women, they want to see a love story that they are centered in. they want to be picked, they want likeike, hey, give me the romance, give me X, YZ And if I'm keeping a buck, I think part of the reason that's why Casey initially went in and was rocking with Anya 'cause it was like, well, we're about to give you that. We're gonna be Serena and Cordell two, they won season six. They're still together, adorable couple. But I wonder what kinds of conversations do you notice coming to the fore as a result of the way that the competition tends to shake out and the position of dark skinned bllack women on the show, both on this season and traditionally. Like, how do you think that affects the way people P has the show, digest it, talk about it. I mean, I think the narrative with Love Island in particular, UK included was just a lot of concern of like, it's great that you are able to do this diverse casting, but have you found men that are actually interested in dark skinned black women? And that's Al kind of a conversation, even with Bryson Trinity. All right. coupling, I think For a while, people were watching that with their guard up of like is he actually interested in Trinity and I think People who have left the house have made missteps and commenting on that relationship. But I think even past sort of the interracial aspect The game of the show, they've been kind of playing right. They have been exploring and testing their relationship and finding each other again in a really respectful way. And so like I think That adds to their popularity as well is that it feels like they are genuinely like moving doing the show the correct way And so I think that plays into it a little bit I think there's an inherent skepticism that a lot of the audience has going in Casey did this speech at the beginning of the season where he was telling I, you're this beautiful dark skin woman, you were the blueprint when you werere a black woman, I think of you. And honestly, I thought it was really sweet, but I went to the time I was at the time I't I went to Howard where people argue in the bathroom about slavery. and I also know guys from California. A hotel man from California loves to be like, Oh, my African queen like like, okay, like he sounds like every engineering major that I met my freshman year if we're being honest. But it is it's sort of like I said with the audience expectation, we're looking at Caseian and I like have we found the next arena in Cordell. And we're looking at Bryson Trinity night one like, I really hope he's genuinely interested in Trinity in terms of thinking about the racial aspects of the show. I've seen people accuse you know, either like specifically this year with Bryce and Trinity. Bryce I mentioned is a white man. Trinity is a Black woman. They make it, I think a very cute couple. They seem like they have great chemistry, right? They really like each other likeike I get the vibe that they really like each other. like they I think they think Yeah They're both funny and they have a key and they get to gossip in bed together and they miss each other when they don't get to do that. They seem like they have a nice relationship for the sake of the show within the context of the show. and I believe it and I'm enjoying watching it. But there's accusations of both of them that they're scamming or sort of make or sort of back into the idea Um, that like Nobody could possibly just love this woman or like her just because, which I find really nefarious I think there's a lot of projection that the audience does. Like we all do it. L I see a Naya crying on the ground and it's like, oh And I've been there L like, Oh like Casey, you can't get away with this, like that sort of thing. But I think a lot of people project their own feelings of like, oh, I'm not desired And I'm going to project that onto them. or oh, you know, if and I had been sitting up there with Carl, I can only imagine the discourse KaseC would have gone off the edge. I think a lot of I think a lot of men project themselves onto KC. I think They project themselves onto KaseC. here It's very Lawrence from insecure coded where it's like yeah. You think you're a good guy, but you're actually not. And it's a lot of like he's trying us bestad. like what do you want? Like he's not doing anything wrong. It's like, whoa. But I mean Something that I wanted to get back to was like you were saying, I think it is P One of the things I enjoy is that there's a lot of Dark Son Black women who have become the fan favorites. I think on the flip side, some of the Darkness of the discourse or the cruelty is like throughrough these trials and tribulations, people are being like Oh, I'm watching my Sims and here's the gallery like Aanaya to the group of photos of black women in the confessional like Oh who' been having a mental breakdown. Yeah. It's this meming of the situation and so I really don't appreciate this idea that like Oh for her to move through the show successfully is her to go through like Jake you mentioned, a canon event in a way, like I I' happy someone like Anaya or Jane or Aandria is in the house. I'm not happy that their experience is like feeling like they're being doggged the whole time until the right guy comes in Coming up It's almost like a conquest of the self. It's like someone would describe An as a how I value woman She still bends the knee to Casey. Stick around Talk to me about sort of like how you've seen some of this red pill rerist show up in the Discourse aroundound show Yeah, I think with Kasey, it's sort of the support that like, oh, Anya wasn't behind my door in the first episode. people sort of express their preferences after a quick game. They have this game, the first episode where they like you had to show your preference for either a certain thing or anvent or eventually a certain person by standing behind a door. He was supposed there's supposed to be other there's supposed to be women or woman, a woman standing on the other side of that door who wanted to get to know him better When he opened up the door, nobody was there. That did not happen for any of the other men on the season. That did not happen. I mean, that mean rather, that did not happen for any of the other men on the show at that moment. I imagine that didn't feel great. He has been talking about though the fact that no one chose him. Like it's been on his Yeah, come on Like I didn't, it was not until he like maybe the last week or so that I realized, o, you're still thinking about that. Like we've Like that was so long ago. And keep in mind, he ended up with Anayah who faced a similar rejection. Anayah was behind a different guy's door. The guy did not choose her and that's how they coupled. We have not heard Anayah speak any to resentment toward sincere picking Melanie over her and her with KaseC, but that is a similar rejection that her and Kasey Faced I think that It's become kind of the skeleton key of like, oh, you weren't going to make it last with any of these girls because no one chooewse you from the start. And you're very interested in Ti because this is a person who is like serving herself on a platter to you basically, saying like You're the person I'm interested in I know what your boundaries are and your asar and I'm going to meet them immediately as possible. and it's think His has been more subtle a journey than Zach who we should really talk about, but I think Casey and Zach are to where There's villains this season, Corbin sincere When you get into sort of the red pill mentality, it's the way in which Casey and Zack are speaking about the different relationships. Zack is like getting intimate with you know, his you know, longtime partner in the house Kata. And you know, while they're intimate, he's saying, you know, I love you, I love you, I love you. But then the next morning He's like, Ohh, haa, It was just a joke. I'm just kidding. Like all of these weird sort of like he nags her in certain ways. There was one day he refused to make her breakfast because the girls had done something very benign that he didn't like. And so he punished her by not feeding her breakfast. I think that Casey and Zach are very good exam or very good examples of this sort of like like, you know, wanting to seem like a good guy on their, you know, like at face value actual behavior is a lot more insidious when it comes to how they are interacting with people on a one to one basis. Zach is also, I think he's a bit of a game player. His brother was on the previous season. so I think that also and he knows how to play the game and how he should come across and you can see him freak out when the mask does slip because he's like, oh no, I'm going gonna look terrible. Like this is not how I get to the finale. all of that. But I think yeah, the amount of women I know who are like empathizing with Kasey And sometimes I'm like, am I? Am I shripping? like what? Am I seeing something you are not? like what is going Oh Oh my gosh. Yeahah, it's, um, I don't know, I mean a lot of this feels like to me like I don't know. A lot of the sort of factions that we're seeing in discussing the show and sort of like a the I think a little bit of a sour or sourr that we're seeing in a discussion around Love Island this season. It feels to me and this is just me guessing and projecting because I have not been a part of the dating scen for over a decade at this point It seems to me like a lot of this is just refracting our broken dating world to us I don't know. like not just like in what we're seeing on the show in the way everybody's reacting to it. likeike what do y'all think about that idea Yeah, o, absolutely. It really is a reflection of what dating is like. And I think, you know, I'm very much a millennial straight up middle millennial born in the nineties. I do not touch GX, I do not touch G Z. And I do think for younger folks, Gin Z folks, it's even even bigger reflection. like you can tell Oh, these are people who were in high school during the pandemic. Oh, these are people who have been watching streamers and podcasts and just came up different situation U, but at one thousand percent reflects it. I do find I think Women I know who are in relationships and have been in them for a very long time, like have not been in the trenches for a very long time, I think are more likely to empathize with KC then with Anaya and I think it's because They have not encountered They have not got on a date with a man and been asked the question, what do you bring to the table And I think if you are in the trenches, it can be triggering. It can be like, you know, I'm sorry. G them out. But really ask that they ask It happens. P. Yeahah, a certain brand of man. A certain a very particular It's a good way to weed out to be like, no, I want a real person and not an internet course. but it does happen. What's scary about these younger contestants, I think is I'd say one, it's sort of them constantly wanting the upper hand and sort of this like dominance play, but it's not conquest in like a number sense, like when it was like the pickup artist type. culture growing up. It's almost like a conquest of the self. It's like sort of whittling down someone who although like say someone would describe Anah as a how I value woman, she still bends the knee to Casey. like it's sort of the hypocrisy of Lake I'm here to explore but I want to only be with someone who is obsessed with me And I want to be the center of someone's world And so it's that weird aspect of it that feels like so pernicious of like feels like you are breaking your partner down. And that's so not needed And I will say there is a little bit of the red pill on the girl's side. likeike sometimes the stuff they say about masculinity, sometimes the things they say. It's like there was a whole whole day where people were like So do you are you dominant? Would you consider yourself Yeah dominant? It's that What do you mean? Now I will say as a person Like I'm I do like my doors opened. I do love to know, you know, be open on side of the street And if you say like, hey, these things are important to me, he, donon't ab do that no moreore. Oh, oh no. I don't. Well, and that's kind of what Kasey did at the beginning of the season, right? I think like he asked Anah what she wants in a relationship. and she said, Bess Bess, I really mean this with all the kindness in the world Bess her little heart. She said, I love fairy tales. I say girl, you don't need to be here. You need to be B in the safe bosom of your parents home. She would be a great bachelorette. You came to loveve Ireland talk. They're gonna make you suck cake off of a man's toes, baby. This is not the place to come for fairy tales. I think it's fine for people to not agree. likeike Casey didn't agree with her in that moment. Oh, he's not interested in a fairy tale. That's fine. I mean, I'll be honest. If a man told me that he wanted a fairy tale, Id probably stopped talking to him because I'm like, what do you mean by that?? Are you going to save me? Are youre going to lock me in a castle? Like what are you talking about? How What What was what she was expressing as shorthand for some sort of high standards and his first instinct was to knock them down and down until shes he's like, well, I don't really want to do that Maybe but you know, I could do basic stuff like open doors or whatever, but I'm not going to do this other stuff. He immediately started negotiating with her to lowering her standards, which is a tactic that, you know not unfamiliar to either, you know, these manosphere training programs. Yeah. I mean, itselt really build her up to knock her down. Yeah. ye. Build her up to knock her down. I love the point that you made Marcus about sort of like Wh's it's like a power play Like, who's going to be the person who's the most powerful and the situation. What's the point of being so rigid in and how we talk about fighting love or connection I think dating and in particular, heterosexual dating is in a very Chaotic transition period right now Hm. Transition from what to what I think for a long time Relationships, men's role in relationship was, okay, what can I provide? Women need me to survive because they can't have bank accounts. They're not going to be able to make their own money. They're not able to their careers to go as far And that just isn't the case anymore. So I think it's a question of what does love look like when you're not needed, but you're wanted. And I think both men and women struggle with that because at the same time that, you know, you can say Hey, you know like, Men, we need to be more in touch with emotions. You need to be more in touch with X,YZ. It could still be a thing that was like, well, do you have money? What are you going to provide for me? What are you going to give? And I think there's I think there's a real push and pull we're having right now between what love and relationships have been in the past and what we're about to walk into. And I don't know what we're about to walk into. But I think a lot of that negotiation is happening in real time. And I think millennials, Gen Z and probably Gin Alpha I, like we're going to be the ones kind of figuring it out in real time. What do you think, Marcus? Yeah, I think there's a real issue with everyone kind of looking for an idealized version of a partner but not willing to do the communication to kind of find that compromise Mm. And so I think that is kind of why I've been enjoying Love Island too is that they're literally forced to have this real communication that we're not seeing a lot of people of their same age. have It's sort of chasing this idea if you don't immediately check the boxes like onto the next one. when real relationships, it's like Okay, I don't know The one hundred percent of you are up front Let's talk about sort of what our wants what we whether we want a family, these types of traditional things, even sort of our preferences with sex and kind of get to the same page. And I don't think I think as generations goes on, less and less people are willing to do that work. Everyone kind of wants everything up frront That' suchuch a good point It's like there's You know, we talk we've talked on this show sort of about like this idea of like, you know, just the desire for a frictionless existence and so many aspects of our lives have become frictionless. It really We all are so used to things being not all of us, but in many ways, we're used to a lot of things being a lot simpler than they used to be a lot less. more frictionless than they used to be. And yet connecting with and building something with another person, like a relationship cannot be You could maybe grease the wheels a little bit, but like you really can't like you can't fast track it. There's nothing you can do to hack it. And I think that that's sometimes to Y'all's point, like people are trying to categorize, they're trying to judge they're trying to evaluate Um and whittle their options down but I don't know, when you will your options down, sometimes you can get left with nothing U But I don't know. I mean, a lot of dating commentary and this is something, this is a thought that as we're developing this conversation, our producer, Alexis shared, which I was like, this is so genius and so true. A lot of dating commentary and what we're seeing, it dehumanizes people, the people that we're trying to connect with U and That feels like what we're seeing at play right now and the way people are talking about Love Island. But oh my gosh Marcus, JQ, thank you both so much. I had the time. Thank you. You're like our Ari Automatics. That was Awards editor at IndieYire, Marcus Jones, and host of Explain it to Me, Jhquolin Hill. And to all of you watching, thank you so much for hanging out with us. 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