Democratic Control and Social Media

This is a Global Player original podcast It's three minutes after ten you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Here's a headline. Experts blame climate crisis for Western Europe's worst ever heat wave I'll read you a little more of the story. The heat wave in Western Europe is the most severe and widespread ever and only possible because of the climate crisis driven by fossil fuel burning scientists said today. Almost half of Europe's eight hundred and fifty largest cities are also suffering their worst ever heat stress It's a combination of temperature and humidity they have found with muggier conditions meaning that sweating is less effective at cooling the body at which point everybody goes, Oh, that's why I can't sleep at the moment And then there's a a lot more detail and a lot more science, if you like, a lot more statistics. It's the World Weather attribution Consortium that shows How rapidly extreme heat is worsening as carbon pollution piles up in the atmosphere There's two big stories in the news today One, obviously I just shared with you, and the other you'll be aware of involves the king's finances and the potentially slightly tricky decision to spend hundreds of millions of pounds doing up Buckhouse and they're not actually living in it. The first moniarch I think since Queen Victoria who won't be living in Buckingham Palace, despite these very necessary and very extensive renovations. and I I break up today. I'm off for the next couple of weeks. so I find my brain probably beginning to shut down slightly But these are both trraditionally, subjects that I file under Massively important Ncessarily phonins. Do you see what I mean? I can sit here and I hope be very entertaining and informative on both subjects I don't know that I've ever Absolutely nailed the right question when it comes to the very existence of the royal family. Can I do a topic? Would that be too meta Why have I never done a really good phon in on whether or not we should have a royal family? Is it because it just gets bogged down in ictable positions and stereotypes is it because I'm not a very good radio presenter pererish the sword And I feel that this week we've flirted. I feel like Icarus But I've flown a bit too close to the sun, if you pardon me analogy And yesterday, that conversation we had about what should we be doing differently? I felt it only really kicked off about ten to eleven. And that must be my fault. It's tempting to blame you It means I didn't quite get you in the place that we all needed to be in until about half past ten, despite a twenty minute monologue. Or maybe you needed the twenty minute monologue to percolate, if you like, through your own thinking and your own consciousness. and you didn't find yourself having much of interest to say until a little bit later in the a. So we hit eleven o'clock. We could have carried on for another hour where the switchboard was full people with interesting things to say about why we aren't coping what we would do better to cope better with the With the heat Um It can historically be the same with the royal familyily. And you know, I'm also fascinated by what word are we going to use What word are we going to use? becausecause some of the phrases that we use, some of the phrases that I use, some of the phrases that I've introduced you to. are unhelpful in the great scheme of Th. The furiously hard of thinking is one of my favourites believe that they know better than the scientists or the people who believe that their favourite daily mail columnist somehow knows better than ninety nine plus percent of all the qualified people on the planet. and it's not like Brexit, really. And that single element of it is like Brexit. But the complications of understanding what the European Union is all about are much greater than the complications of understanding the relationship between carbon based pollution and a heating planet. And it's really not that difficult to grasp. And yet There was a widespread refusal to grasp it. lots and lots of people fell for. Would you agree with me that the people who you might once have expected to be pooh poo in climate science have now decided to attack children instead for being too hot Do you see what I mean? It's the movement of the should we say the fatally incurious rather than the furiously hard of thinking, because some of these people are perfectly capable of thinking. they just choose not to. So you move from, oh, I don't know about climate science. I mean, it was very hot in nineteen seventy six, and that obviously doesn't hold water as an argument against decades of observable science But instead, rather than thinking about it or indeed acknowledging the mistake Instead, you move effortlessly to blaming children for being too hot. You know They're having to shut hospitals because the machines don't work in this heat. And yet it's not that hard to find people on social media insisting that the young today aren't resilient enough because They're not capable usually in air conditioned television and radio studios or air conditioned newspaper offices, insisting that they shouldn't be shutting the schools or that children today aren't tough enough Despite the fact that hospitals in England are declaring critical incidents Because radiotherapy machines, scanners, cooling units and IT systems are failing Under my glorious rule, it will be compulsory for anybody in this line of work who opines about the resilience of children from an air conditioned studio to conduct the next time we have the hottest day in history, they have to conduct their entire program from the middle of Trafalga Square with no shade, or from the fourteenth floor of a tower block with no lift, or just from a school with no air conditioning. And let's see how I'd be fing after three hours in the kind of heat that I've endured in every other aspect of my life, but which I don't have to endure while I'm actually at work I mean, it's comical, right But also dangerous, like almost all of the opinions held by these people Be it's always hand in hand, isn't it? It's Brexit, it's Johnson, it's Trump it's climate change. It's always going hand in hand And the question I really want to ask you really is whether or not it's dead Now becausecause they've tried to demonize net zero. they're trying very, very hard to demonize net zero There is currently a conference unfolding in London with a sort of who's who of the professionally ignorant, opining about everything from two tier policing, which of course doesn't exist, right through to net zero, demonizing Ed Milliband, funded by Donald Trump donors, funded by fossil fuel mean it's not even hiding. It's not like Tufton Street where they don't declare who is paying them to come on radio and television programs and argue against climate science. It's literally published who funds them and here we are still reporting it in some corners of the media with a straight face Um, Is it is it has it failed Even though Net Zero, I told you a while ago they were going to try and turn it into the next Brexit. They're trying really hard to turn it into the next Brexit. I don't know whether Nigel Farage has been given five million pounds by fossil fuel companies or by ten fossil fuel companies. We'll never know who else may have given him five million pounds for undisclosed reasons because he won't tell us about the money. We only know about the five million pounds he took from Taie based billionaire because of journalism and he doesn't think that's any of your business. So you never know really with some characters how much money they've squirreled away from vested interests. That's why they squirw it away, I suppose Is it going to fail simply because of the weather You know the party's final most terrible command that we ignore the evidence of our own eyes and ears. And we sit here Some of us sit here marveveling at how others can ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears. and others sit here ignoring the evidence of their own eyes and ears. It's a fairly binary divide can we actually ignore the evidence of our of our thermometers. Can we actually ignore the evidence? I don't really see, I haven't actually looked at what the Daily Mail columnists have done today, but I imagine one of them will be sort of going on about strawberry movies or complaining that children aren't resilient. and actually I can't be bothered. I'll have a look later That idea that the The power of propaganda is so great that it can persuade populations to vote to become the first in history to impose economic sanctions on itself. You can persuade people that some a Ukrainian has set fire to Kir Starmer's old house because he wasn't paid for his prostitution services. There's so many examples of people being persuaded by the engines of propaganda to believe things that are obviously not true that it was quite easy until relatively recently to get very depressed about Net zero and climate change and they're still trying. Make no mistake, they're absolutely pushing. the idea that we shouldn't be doing this. And there are some arguments about pragmatism. There's no argument about whether the world should be pushing towards net zero. There are some pragmatic and practical arguments about whether the United Kingdom should be taking quite such a leading role. and I get that But the opposite of drill, baby, drill is shill, baby shill If you are, I mean, literally or rather the cousin, the twin brother of Drill Baby Bill D drill, baby drill, sheill, baby Sill. You are lying to the public. It's insane. to argue that we should be putting more carbon into the atmosphere or that by doing so, we would somehow improve the state of our country But is it going to work And And why do you think it is Can we be a bit more optimistic today Do you think Can we say? that even if you are programmed to ignore the evidence of your O eyes and ears Can we say with some confidence? that This is not going to work, that we are now approaching a point where everybody is going to have to acknowledge real just the science, the reality I mean, in some ways, I've got two questions. I'm fascinated by the psychology people who who don't understand things or who insist that they don't understand things. How on earth can you be persuaded that this is not a consequence of all the fossil fuels that we're pumping into the atmosphere? I used to hear from people in that category quite often. Now they're as rare as hen's teeth and they're always mad. So I mean that, and I'm not pulling my punches or being kind or unkind. They are absolutely bonkers. The idea that you can look at all of the science And with a GCSE in domestic science, you can conclude that you know more than all of the scientists do And of course, if you're getting paid for that, then good luck to you. you know, your kids need shoes, you've sold your soul. If you're not even getting paid for it If you're just going on social media, you're just phoning up radio shows to insist that you know better than all the scientists do A, I suppose it's a bit Brexy and B, I think you're on a hiding to nothing Richard Thice does it, I think. Richard Thice has the brains of a pillow That much is clear. All these NPO babies surrounding Varage who have either given him money in return for a job or are just expounding positions that are ridiculous. I don't think the net zero is going to land I think it's going to fail I think the attempts to rubbish it, to demonize it, to denigrate it, to undermine it are just going to be undermined by days like today and not just the one offs, but the fact that this is As one newspaper's front page reminded us yesterday, this is the new normal. Listen, as Craig points out, it's twenty two years it's twenty odd years too late U better late than never It is simply the case that you can't really argue against this science anymore. unless you are an obvious idiot That's the question really. That's where I'd like to encounter some optimism today. Do you think and of course you're more than welcome to be pessimistic Do you think the current crisis right across Europe is going to provide the political appetite needed profound areonged and meaningful change Because the engines or the tanks parked on our lawns are powerful and exceedingly well funded But I think they might be increasingly impotent I haven't got a lot of precedent for that because they normally win those tanks, those vested interests Th u SILs, those client journalists, those propagandists, those lobby groups, masquerading as think tanks, they normally win They've won on immigration for example, which is largely designed to distract you from the real reasons for inequality. They want on Brexit, they want on u tax issues. they've won on wealth distribution, poverty being the fault of the poor, not the. They've won on almost every front I think today they might lose this one They might lose this one zero three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three. is the number that you need. J just to tell me whether or not you think that This time, this weather is just going to change everything. Ohero three, four, five, six zero, sixz nine seven three, that this weather is going to change everything. And if you've been waiting for this moment, Just give me a shout on why You welcome it or whether you welc you've been waiting for this moment An epic failure of journalism But of course journalism is bought and sold in this country, just as politicians, some politicians are But what what How do you greet the relationship between the public discourse and this extreme, this excessive, this extraordinary weather Is it over zero three, four five, sixzero sixzer nine seven three is the number that you need. It's ten, eighteen Because I'd have to tell you what haunts me a bit at the moment is the thought that the weather breaks, it gets cold again next week And the conversation goes back on the on the he, forgive me, but goes back on ice and this movement I'm not doing a very good job of expressing my misgivings to you because this movement is gathering pace You can almost hear the tills ringing I tell you that there is a conference in London at the moment being addressed by the leader of the opposition, being addressed by all of the mad people our media has turned into celebrities. the tough head mistress, the free speech bro and The leader of UKI reform, the leader of the Tories. They're all there at a conference that's being funded in large part by fossil fuel companies. It's as if it's as if you can see process Beginning again that the desperation to deny the reality of what we are all feeling You'd like to think, wouldn't you that there was a sort of fatal irony? to the idea of a conference on extreme heat being cancellled because of extreme heat. Down in Kings Lyn, the Reform UK Council was poised to have a meeting to lift decarbonization programmes to reverse climate change addressing policies and they had to cancel the meeting because it was so hot Literally the street that the council building is on has got flood barriers up Because because that is what happens as the climate changes, the waters rise ust I don't know. I just want either to canvass your optimism or your p It's a fairly straightforward question Is the weather going to end the debate Or is the power and money of the liars so considerable and so great that the debate will not be over and it may even not be Ten twenty two is the time. Freddy is in eipping Freddy, would you like to Good morning, James, goodood morning to all of your listeners. to say good morning to all of them But than you, No I don't think that the debate will be won Because I think there's too many persistent attitudes in society about the heat waves and what came before them. You always hear the argument from older people about the heat wave of nineteen seventy six And I think as long as that mentality is around People of that age group supporting climate denialist parties such as reform will always be able to win the argument by just saying nineteen seventy six, nineteen seventy six, over and over and over again. But what if in return now we have got the eleven hottest years ever. So it would be okay, nineteen seventy six was anomalous and extraordinary. And you say to these people, perhaps politely, perhaps not, say there's a reason why you can remember it pruned. It was It was fifty years ago and you can remember it because it was so out of the ordinary. Those temperatures are normal now. Surely that, and I know I'm possibly a applying too much logic to illogical people. But surely that is the end of that particular ara I'm afraid it's not because every year last year I heard nineteen seventy six, particularly online and then the year before that I heard nineteen seventy six, and I just don't think that that memory, that nostalgia is going to go away. And I think as a result, people will slowly begin to believe that That discourse about that one summer fifty years ago or however long it was. fifty years. That's mice Yes, I know, crazy. But then I think Again, I just think that attitude is too embedded and the longer how old are you? Do you want me as me how old you are I'm sixteen So I'm very concerned about climate change. Yeah, that's really sad that you think that that oil tanker, as it were, is never going to be turned around because the crew are committed to the nonsense Why do you think it works, Freddy? When you look at older people possessed of really stupid opinions like the one you're describing, why do you think it works so well? partarticularly given that almost all of the science, in fact all of the science Actually, that's not true. Kiran picked me up on that. He said, James, you're talking rubbish again. Richard Tice has many experts to refute your claims. He just can't identify or name any of them. But that's hardly the point is it? Facts and evidence are all so old fashioned. So when you encounter an old person possessed of a really stupid opinion, that jeopardizes your future Why do you think it work So how can they end up thinking something that is so obviously false and so demonstrably false I think the reason we got into this mess about slowing down on net zero is because of the Conservative partarty and particularly its voter base. So you'll remember, James that in twenty twenty three, the conservatives suddenly changed against net zero. And I think that was because they were concerned about in twenty twenty four losing their older voter base. So they pivoted to this argument. And with the Conservatives being such an old political force, it's the most successful party in the Western world People will naturally believe it because traditionally so, they trust it to be the party of government of sensibility. If the partarty of sensibility is putting out these opinions and making them mainstream, then people will think, well, surely they're right because they've governed us for so long and they can be trusted. Well you're very, very bright. I don't mean that in a patronizing way. I just mean the way that you're joining the dots. because you're right, Kammy Baden, It was a conservative government that introduced the pledge to hit net zero by twenty fifty. and then you have to wonder why Kami Badenoch decided to abandon it after becoming leader of the Conservative partarty. And it could be epic ignorance. you know, you can never rule that out when you're talking about Kami Badenok, an extraordinary. disdain for the facts or indeed for doing the doing the reading and doing the research, but it's probably simpler to say that she's done it because she's frightened of losing all the votes that you still think are there among people who reject science So what do you think the polling was in November? What percentage of Britons do you think supported Cutting carbon emissions to net zero by twenty fifty. You probably know because you've done the research, but play along. Do you know I think it was around seventy percent supported the net zero tar. It sixty last November. It's probably gone up now. So you're talking about twenty five percent of the population. If I were to say to you Desperate pursuit of optimism. that gets split, that gets shared out between Baderot Farrid and the other fellow who used to own Southampton Football Club. That's not a threat, is it? That's twenty five percent split three ways. And presumably, it would be down to about twenty percent now because of well mortality and natural wastage and also because some people will be sticking their head out of the window and going, Yeahah, maybe I'm going to actually listen to the scientists and not to Richard Tice No, I think the issue is that I think compared to twenty nineteen before the pandemic, I think because of the economic crisis, people don't care about climate change because that's in twenty five, fifty years. peopleople care about their problems now. and that's why people are voting for reform because well, they've never hold office. so they must be able to fix the problems because they're different and everyone else go Yeah, As long as we're in this crisis, I don't think economically, I don't think people will be worried about climate change until it's solved. You are as bright as a button, young Freddie, because of course the other bit of the U gov polling that I've just referred to does indeed show that people prioritize the cost of living. So saying that I support the government's commitment to carbon emissions is relatively meaningless unless you add giveive me all your money Or we're going to cut carbon emissions by you getting really of your job or making life harder for it. So I mean, it might be a demonstration of understanding, but as Freddyie quite brilliantly reminds us that understanding gets immediately diluted by the inevitable realities of living ohny's Bristol, Johny made you pick up the ph Yeah morning, Jane. kind of. picked up the phone because I was thinking exactly what you were saying, willill this change everything? And Like my background is over the last twenty five years of spent quite a bit of time working in oil and gas for big companies like Saudi Aramco, Adnok, and Abu Dhabi. W, Shell Cepsa. So I've seen it on the inside. And remember all this climate stuff at the bottom end it comes down to energy, It comes down to carbon and what drives our economies. And for the last ten years, I've been working independent, trying to raise capital c bioenergy solar wind plant. So I've gone to the other side of the paradigm you think about it. And In a nutshell, you hit a great high at the Paris aggreement ten years ago. This word ESG came in. We're going to change the world. It's going to be great. You saw Black Rck and all these big investors coming in and said we'll do it, we'll do it Once we got over the marketing BS, I suppose is the polite thing to say. When you're sitting inside these companies, these investors, these pension funds They start to work out it's really hard and it's really costly And you just don't want to be doing it You then move on a bit. you got two energy sharks, Russia, COVID Yeah And you're Iran And now Iran. Now the only guy who said it well that I've heard recently is your man Greg Jackson from Octopus. Yeah, big fan of talk he goinges last week He stood up and he said, lookook at me How we tried to do renewals was stupid. We put windmills on people's land that they didn't want. And then we sent them a bill with a hundred creating green saying, dch is great. And I was just going, yeah, you're dead right. It's like net ero. Who cares about it? Like who even knows in that is You know, these utopian goals don't work. They by twenty percent. That's the language of politics. It's not actually the language of meaneingful change Exactly. It doesn't make anything And look look on the other side, you have to go, I got solar panels in my house there recently, right? You think of it as the consumer here. I'm doing that to be energy efficient to use less My misses comes in and goes, G, I can do more washing and leave the dryer on all in. I'm like, no, that's not the point tries to reuce carbon. Well, that's what Jackson does, isn't it? is that he cleverly makes it he appeals to spacer instincts by saying that net zero will deliver cheaper energy costs, not so you know if you're not going to it's almost as if he swerves the climate imperative angle of the argument and he's right to because it doesn't I mean, if listen, if you're in favor of net zero, but you're more worried about the cost of living, then the only way forward is to make the cost of living benefit from net zero. So so you bring down energy It's the thing I struggle with And I understand that the initial investment for a domestic user is very high and you don't make back the savings. forty K Yeah to pay off the So you will be moving in the right direction, but you need it's like everything else in our world. It's Vimes's boots isn't it? out of Terry Pratchet. If you've got the money, then you'll be better off because you will be investing in the technology and you will be paying less for your energy for a hundred years Even if it takes you thirty years to move into profit, you're going to then have seventy years or ten. Yeah But James, it doesn't have to be that way because I was talking to your man Chris Stark in the Energy Department last week. He's a very good fellow. Now the problem is this, if you look at me R? I'm above the grand. So you have to be a sary below thirty six to get the grand to get all your heat pumps put in, So if you're forty two, if you're in that middlee, I always hear you talking about people trying to buy a home, you know Let's get going in life. But you have to sell out forty K, right? Now I don't want to get into technical boring stuff here, but If you then go, I'm investing in forty K, I've save money in my electricity, what value do I put in the house? It doesn't come up on a You know, it doesn't come up the EPC, so the rating for your energy in your house doesn't give you Oh I put in forty grand, That's eighty k on the value of my house. Right It doesn't work like that You can't go, you know, the banks go on about green mortgages Yeah, most people can't get a mortgage But if you go to then say,, I got my salary, I want I want forty K They won't give you a loan like that for structural stuff. So it's a regulation thing s it's a government can change the EPC and the value. And a bit that Greg Jackson does really well is he talks about energy like they are iPhones. He makes it understandable to the human Youre right? Yeah. and I mean, and his central point as you will know, but some people listening may not is that you are not going to be able to do it if it means that bills go up. you have to or he frequently asserts that clean and green energy is cheaper to generate, but our markets and our grids prevent the consumers from seeing those savings. no one's infallible, but I'm a fan of that guy I have a family member who works for him actually, and he is Among his own workforce he's held in almost uniquely high esteem. I think that's important as well when you're looking at how people operate But there it is. I mean, the obstacles that Johnny describes are very real and very big And so the idea, the somewhat simplistic idea that you just walk outside now and conclude that it's time to start ignoring people that are telling you the scientists are all wrong is probably overly simplistic, but that's the question. I still think, you know It's got to change, hasn't it? This new normal You can't cite and Freddie sad to hear it a relatively idealistic sixteen year old being quite defeatist about silly old men who in my ars have moved on a bit from arguing that the scientists are all wrong and are now just attacking children for being too hot But maybe I'm being overly optimistic. It's ten thirty three. Dominic Gallis has your headlines ten thirty seven, the psychology of people who deny things that are I mean, either irrefutably true or almost certainly true I mean, it's a human condition, isn't it? We are not, I don't think, quite as sophisticated a species as we like to think that we are Donald Trumps still got approval ratings in the United States of America in double figures, which is incredible, right? just sort of All of the evidence of his idiocy and depravity is right there in front of you. but something happens in our brains. We are not rational beings I've always got that. Brian Cox's quote from suuccession in the back of my mind at this point when he says to his own children, You are not serious people We are not serious people And that's why my optimism that the current evidence of climate crisis being the new normal, will change the conversation is at the very best somewhat muted There's also a hideous report out from a UN Commission of Inquiry about Israel committing genocide in Gaza by deliberately targeting children. And you know there will be a hell of a lot of people determined to refuse to believe that as well and to attack the messengers or to attack the commommission or to attack the United Nations. And it is to me fascinating in every example of the lengths and efforts that people will go to to cling to their own I mean, false convictions. It's extraordinary.' sharing a little bit more detail of that report later in the program because someone has to. Jan is in Syiren Sester to steer us back to the net zero conversation or at least to the propaganda conversation. Jan, what would you like to say James, good morning. I'm not optimistic about net zero, but I think we should be trying for it And I just don't think that current heat wave is going to make any difference in terms of our targets. But we should be going, but we must be realistic. You can't replace what we've got with nothing.. You've got to have something to replace it and we're losing a massive opportunity moving towards net zero with other forms of energy. And what a bullip for the for the country in terms of and security. becausecause security of supply is crucial And I mean these these are the points. I don't want to labor the point about people who who will not see is what is obvious. but I mean the very word sustainable, that the massive contrast between a finite thing that's really bad for humans and has to be dug out of the ground or pumped out of the seabed versus The eternal urn The eternal blowing of the wind or, the eternal shining of the sun or the eternal flowing of the water. We should have done it as soon as it was invented, really And and yet we didn't. and we're still not as you say, doing anything like the scale that we should be That's right. And we're losing an opportunity. But you can't expect the individuals to suddenly say, all right We're not going to drill and nor seals run out. What do we run the car on if you can't run it on electricity? And you can't expect the politicians to do it. Well there is a very real chance of their opponents succeeding in telling the same voters' lies. No, that's right. so that's why I rem I'm not quite as cynical as you, but I'm cynical that we're not going to get to net zero. whateverly No,ver. because the effort's been put into resisting it will remain so great. I don't know. Can you think of something we could do differently? I What if I put you in charge? Be thats that you've really highlighted a problem here because even if you had a government Absolutely said, I don't care about the opposition, I don't care about the propaganda, I don't care about the lies. I'm doing this for the next generation and for this gener we're putting everything on it as soon as we possibly can. They'll be voted out potentially after four years because no party, whatever color or that they promote is ever going to think long term, which is what we should be doing, they're thinking, how can I get reelected in four or five years? And that is the biggest and of course, you've got as Camy Badenot proves, even if a party commits to it, another leader can come along and for entirely selfish or ignorant reasons decide to abandon the policy that your own party had introduced in the first place. and that is a consequence of prerecisely the engines of propaganda that that we started off talking about today. I want more optimism, please. We haven't had much optimism so far. In fact, I'm not sure we've had any optimism. It's not often that I'm the optimist, but on this one I don't know. as soon as I start thinking about it, I think it's going to rain next week and we'll sit down again So what would we do differently? How would we push this And maybe what time is it? We've got time to have a little look at why the psychology works Why are people persuaded of things that are not true when the stakes are I mean, unspeakably high, unspeakably high Jenny is in Glastonbury where there's no festival this year. Jenny, what would you like to say Well I'm afraid I'm not going to be very optimistic, Jy. going on, Jinny? is to on then never mind C on. Sorry. Okay. So this is an analogy really, and it doesn't completely hold water, but many years ago, fifty years ago, I was doing a psychology degree And the social psychology at that point was looking at how vulnerable people were to having their views changed, their behaviour changed regarding smoking. there was a big move to You know what I discovered yesterday, this bloke that I'm obsessed with, Don Parlman, who was like the godfather of climate change deniial working for a a US lobbyist lobbyist strokke law firm Patton Bogs and just became the invented climate science denial. He changed smokes throughout all of the meetings, all of the UN meetings that were about climate change because it I don't know why I thought of that as you mentioned smoking, but you're right, changing people's psychology is So basically they got a bunch of smokers heavy smokers and they show them photographs of damaged lungs And the photographs were different degrees of severity because they were slightly damaged right up to, Ohh my God, what's that And after that, they obviously tested their attitudes to smoking and lung cancer. And lo and behold, there was in fact, a tipping point. We love tipping points. And the tipping point was that a c on that scale, there was a certain point at which people's attitudes did not change at all. They changed at the slightly damaged lungs But when you got to them being super damaged, they just switched off and they were exactly the same about smoking as they had been I don't have any complete chapter and verse on this m. Nobody does. But you sound like you've studied psychology, is that So that idea that you can show people It's almost like showing people that they're driving towards a cliff and they will just not believe you. They'll just carry on regardless. And that's why you're pessimistic. Yeah, I think also there's a certain amount of other stuff obviously about, well, nothing I can do, but I'm just going to fiddle while Ran Burns basically. Don't look Yeah, exactly. they don't look up phenland. so I think there's a lot of that. But I thought that was that stayed with me that experiment all these years. and I thought that's really, really interesting. People get too anxious. They just go lull I'll talk to hand. Do you know what Jimmy Carter did in nineteen seventy nine Probably not Hes put solar panels on the White House. M nineteen seventy nine And of course, they would not have been very efficient back then and they would not have been able to replace much of the traditional fossil fuel infrastructure, but that direction of traffic, imagine what would have happened If we've gone all in with Jimmy Carter, who of course, I think of've often at the moment because of what he did with his family peanut farm when he became president, put it into trust so that absolutely no perception, threat, suspicion, danger, risk whatsoever of anything he did as a president having a beneficial economic impact upon his interests in a peanut farm and you compare it to where we are now I've got an actual peanut in the White House It's ten forty nine, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. We are actually doing quite a lot. It's just hard to know where you'd go to find out. in the context of Net Zero and in the context even of that twenty fifty pledge. but Given that our media discourse is dominated by liars, has been now for ten years. People who lied about Brexit all were too sick to understand what they were saying about Brexit. They continue to dominate discourse, both in politics and in the media. It's extraordinary. And some of them are really good at it Some of them are brilliant at spouting the snake oil or persuading people of things that are not true Some of them are brilliant at it, and some of them are richard twice who recently got asked about climate science in an interview, I think, with Bloomberg on their Zero podcast presented by Akshat Rati And this is what happens. But again, you know, this isn't going to get anything like the coverage some nonsense about two tier policing will get in the right wing media that is still largely opposed to net zero policy making because it's largely owned by people who continue to make a ton of money out of fossil fuels. I wish it wasn't that simple because it sounds almost like a conspiracy theory or a really simplistic let's just put a wealth tax on everything and solve all the world's problems kind of position but it really is that simple They pay a lot of money in order to both promote and persuade And what they are trying to promote and persuade is the idea that we should carry on pumping carbon into our atmosphere, even though that is the reason why our weather is so extreme. It's that simple. This is what happens when someone actually does their job. So the first thing you'll hear is him complaining about being asked to justify his opposition to the science. You can't present me with a whole lot of graphs that I can't read that may well be built Okay, okay and put this out there. So this terminates now. It's end of podcast. This was ridiculous. Okay. Okay. I'm sorry. canot you cannot seriously think this is a sensible way No to conduct a podcast. We're not doing it. We're ending now. All I'm saying is this is the summary for policymakers. And I don't agree with any of it. And can't That's can't present something to me expect me to comment on it when I haven't read it, I don't know what you're talking about in terms of what you're presenting. R. And one of the foundations of the IPCC's very ethos in the last twenty thirty years they've just abandoned I love it. I don't understand any of it. How dare you ask me about it? And I wish it wasn't funny. Well it's not very funny actually, is it if you pause for a nanose secondcond to think about what the consequences are. We saw it with Brexit. I don't understand any of it and you're biased for asking me, Project fear. He should have just shouted proroject fear. But of course, there are some experts who back him Your view on climate science, which is that thousands of scientists disagree that Net zero is not the way to tackle climate change. Who are the scientists who are advising you on that? Can you name any? The thousands of scientists? I've got lots of people advise me. I don't list all my private advisers with regard to anything, whether it's net zero, whether it's housing policy, whether it's industrial policy, you know, people who advise me from all different sides who are coming at me from all different angles, very often opposing and that's great because that's how you listen and learn. Um That's that's who we are These are thick as mint, isn't he And I don't say that lightly because it's not a very nice thing to say, but my Godd, you need to have a millionaire on your family tree. Don't you to end up anywhere near Parliament with a brain as small as that So the first argument is, I don't understand any of this. how dare you ask me about it. My opinion is very strong And the second argument is you can't expect me to name any of the scientists that I insist are opposed to all the other scientists. It's unreasonable. And I'm going to play that again because sometimes I think intelligence is the Yeahah, just listen to the second one again. It's so easy to do. You just point at some scientists. There'll be someone in my inbox who's some ex bloke from Greenpeace who's joined the other side and they will be held up as proof in the same way that Patrick Minford during Brexit, the economist, was held up as proof that it's a fifty fifty argument ninety nine economists over there saying it's going to be awful. one over there saying it's not treat them like they're equal They can't even do that. That's how stupid he is. Your view on climate science, which is that thousands of scientists disagree that Net zero is not the way to tackle climate change. Who are the scientists who are advising you on that? Can you name any? The thousands of scientists? I've got lots of people who advise me. I don't list all my private advisers with regard to anything, whether it's net zero, whether it's housing policy, whether it's industrial policy, you know, people who advise me from all different sides who are coming at me from all different angles, very often opposing and that's great because that's how you listen and learn. Um That's who we are. That's who we are. This is who they are because this stuff matters. If the people at the top of the party or bear that they're only there because they've donated so much money to Farage's company The people at the top of the party are just sort of utterly proud of how stupid they are. I don't understand anything. How dare you ask me? Then you end up with people like this on Kirkle' Cnil. I don't understand the Constitution. I have not had sufficient time to read that as yet I don't understand what standing orders are, what they're made up of Nor do I understand what an amendment is? There is a possibility that we might vote for something that we don't understand at the moment And whereas ignorance is not a defense Risk should be mitigated That's a newly elected reform UK cououncillor complaining that she doesn't understand anything about doing the job that she got elected to do and somehow that's not her fault. But who can attack her when is the deputy leader of the party? who can attack her when the actual deputy leader is arrguably even thicker And I don't know where he went to school, but his education would have cost his parents a fortune And he's come out with the brains of a pillow And he's almost proud of it. immagine just how privileged you have to be in life to not realize how sick you are when you're that thick That poor woman, bless her, acknowledges how ignorant she is You know, she doesn't quite grasp that that is really a reason why she shouldn't have been running for the council, but she at least acknowledges it. There's a sort of innocence to her acknowledgement of how ignorant she is But Tyys has managed to grow up in a universe where his epic thickness hasn't mattered at all And he can end up thinking, well I I could have a g being a politician Actually, why not Um I've got very strong opinions backack any of them up, and if you ask me to, then I'll threaten to leave the interview. But my gosh they're very strong, very strong opinions Yeah, yeah, politics for me, definitely. pololitics for me. and climate science is wrong. I just can't name any scientists who agree with me, but who cares It ca James is in Aberigoveni, James, what would you like to say Hi, Jam, a bit nervous. It's onlyer. Oh ye, I, I eat. Yeah, so How can you be nervous? When you've just heard a man who gets invited onto question time demonstrate on national radio that he is as thick as Mince. How can you be nervous? Mate, you could come on here and just make strange noises and sound more intelligent than Richard Tice I forbid you from being nervous. Well, I have skin which is thicker than rice paper I might generally. V very gentle with I promise So I work in offshore wind sector and I'm in two mindes about this. Okay just from a professional life as well as just looking at the wider political discord course with reform and everything. I think the positive is the economic momentum is with Rneews like you look at the growth of the renewable sector, like CBI and are predicting that it's one hundred billion quid a year And like compare that to kind ofzero point eight percent or growth nationally. it is a massive opportunity especially in areas like kind of Northeast England, Port Tbert, South Wales, where there has been a lot of de industrialization And there's a lot of opportunity to regenerate those areas by reles I'm just going to pause you there for the benefit of people who don't pay as much attention to these things as you do. myself included. So this is from what's the date today? This is from the CBI just two days ago on the twenty th ofe. The Climate Change Committee is right to identify the need to stimulate demand across the economy to match the growth in clean power supply as one of the biggest gaps in reducing UK emissions. To realize the benefits of a decarbonized power system and lower costs, the UK must accelerate electrification, provide real clarity on the role of hydrogen and deliver on existing CCUS commitments Targets alone will not drive progress. Market conditions must be able to respond quickly to adoption barriers and external shocks. As you point out, that follows the CBI. telling us that the sums and the jobs in play are already huge and set only to get huger. And then, as you say, the political discourse is largely dominated by people with the brains of a pillow. Yes, I mean, exactly. I mean, a bit of optimism I have is when and Well, that's not optimistic. but there was a lot of leasing off the coast of the United States. and Donald Trump basically did a lot of stop work orders on these projects and they've been going back and forth back and forth in legal battles and these are wind these are wind turbines. Yes which he's got a weird, almost fetishistic dislike of, hasn't he? Yeah. I mean, I I think they look quite nice. I do too. quite mjestic sometimes. Yeah. I mean, I split my time between Wales and Edinburgh. And I don't know anyone in Scotland at the moment, but if you kind of walk up out the sea and have a look at the big yellow jacket towards Leith And those are kind of for a new offshore wind farm being constructed. They repres they look like it. humumankind's dominion over nature any way.ve got I can get a bit fetishistic about cranes and bridges because they remind us what human ingenuity can do with the elements. And wind turbines I understand that, you know, if you stuck one in front of Edinburgh Castle, then some people might object and then I' understand why. but generally speaking, when they're offshore What's the problem Yeah. I mean Exactly. and that's not to pretend there's a lot of big barriers to this economic momentum, like you know, grid and supply chain. that's G That's kind of territory. seen firsthand from government like pretty much within the months after they got into power by the the speed of consultations of work. that is encouraged. strategic planning has been absolutely breakneck Be they get it and speed is of the essence. Unfortunately, I'm just going to could you mind awfully, James if I drizzle on your parade Just with a bit of historical precedent because I was today years old as the kids say, when I discovered that Jimmy Carter had put solar panels on the White House in nineteen seventy nine Would you like to guess what happened in nineteen eighty six Soere was the unsure Ronald Reagan ripped them off again. So that would be that would be the Republican, almost certainly in receipt of huge donations from the fossil fuel lobby. To be fair to the fella, I think they were leaking a bit And there was a roof resurfacing project going on, but there was nothing to stop them being put back up again and they weren't. The likelihood of solar panels being installed by the current incumbent of the White House Um Yeah, less than zero. It's eleven o one. It's four minutes after eleven. I'm going in. It's my final day before my holiday. I'll be off for a fortnight, Louis with you next week. I'd dread to think they've got lined up for the week after. but you'll find out probably before I do I'm going better. I'm going to do something that I will almost certainly regret, quite possibly within the next eleven minutes. I am going to ask you Why I've never had a successful phone in about the existence of the royal family I've had quite a lot of photings about the existence of the rooyal family. I just have a sense. You may disagree. Maybe your memory is better than mine. I have a sense that They've never really sung. Now the last hour of this program Ive found incredibly enjoyable and illuminating. and sometimes in the past, I've struggled with climate change phon ins as well Are we getting too better? I don't think we're getting too better. I honestly think that, you know, Everyone enjoys the show more if it gets better. You do, I do. Everybody does. And working out why some shows are better than other shows should be in both of our interests, shouldn't it? not just mine I think it's it's like, u It's like being interested in the Formula one cars beyond how fast they can go. Why is that car going faster than? Anyway, I digress I don't know We've had some fascinating and brilliant phonin ins about the appalling treatment of the Duchess of Sussex and indeed the Duke of Sussex and the way in which for some people the natural hierarchy of British humans was completely exploded by the fact that the Duke of Sussex had the audacity to fall in love with a woman of colour. because if you feel that your ethnicity, and of course, it's quite a good period of history for you at the moment, because you've got people telling you that the color of your skin really matters and white people are being sinned against and it's terrible to be white in this country. I'm not even joking. They're doing it, cllaiming that white people are victims of Police racism. It's an extraordinary position to adopt. but of course those are precisely the people who couldn't quite understand why they hated Meghan Markle so much and got really furious when he pointed out that it was because she was mixed race And the reason for that is that our deference, our social hierarchy is so baked into all of us that we can't quite compute the idea that somebody who is inferior in the eyes of white supremacists and monarchy and aristocracy. Almost everything about class in this country has a slice of white supremacism in it. quite compute that a mixed race woman could end up so near the very top of the pyramid Or, and this was, of course, Harry's grave offence Someone could reject the system itself despite being a massive beneficiary of it I don't know. Would he have rejected the system if he'd been the older brother? I don't know. We'll never know. He probably doesn't know. but to be so near the top of the pyramid, condemn the pyramid notot just sort of elements of the institution, but also its symbiotic relationship with the toxic media How dare you You can't you can't question our system. You can't question our class system, Harry Because I will feel really stupid then because I'm a for lock tug in capped offffing flag waving Loyalists. So if you near the top of the pyramid think that it's a bit rotten, You're making me feel really stupid. Be I uphold it despite not being a beneficiary of it. I'm upholding the system that has allowed your dad to spend hundreds of millions of pounds on a palace that he's not even going to live in. And I d you're making me feel really stupid And what are you doing falling in love with a mixed race woman Britons never, never, never shall be slaves, which is a kind of roundabout way of saying that Britons are always white and if you're not white, you're not British whichich I discovered thanks to a caller to this program two weeks ago, wouldould you believe So I can have those phon, those phonings are interesting about the class, about the deference, about the racism directed at the Duchess of Sussex, all of that stuff and I enjoy the way that some people's blood boils the sight that they see in the mirror that I hold up in front of them. I'm not racist I'm not right out D you say I'm racist. she's uerty It's an interesting word that used star. She's up prettyty is she? I I mean, you spend a lot of time with her Did you describe anyone else slightly? rememember that extraordinary selection of stories where the Dutches of Sussex and And Prince William was like, Kate Middleton, as she was, did identical things up to and including the actual bouquets that they had at their weddings. and Kate Middleton'souet because that was her name on her wedding day. Kate Middleton's bouquet that day was a beautiful nod to tradition and modernity andra a fragrant tribute to English legacy. And then Meghgan had the same flower in hers. She was trying to poison She was trying to poison the bridesmaids. She was trying to poison Princess, What's it? William's daughter literally the same flower in their wedding bouquets. One of them was a beautiful tribute to tradition flloral history, and the other was trying to poison Princess Charlotte That's how it got written up by the British media, which is definitely not biased or toxic or dedicated to upholding white supremacy. So I can do that. That's interesting, right? You're enjoying this. This is good stuff. This is good content Why have I never had an interesting phon in about the royal family? When I was a kid, Just give me a minute because I'm going to say there were three things and I've only got two in my head So I need to ye three. When I was a kid, it was a great. Keith I know if you're interested in oratorical flourishes, it's a great trick to say there are three things It gives you time to think of what they are and it makes people pay attention a bit more. So there are three things. When I was a kid There were three debates that we used to have Every flipping week it seemed. There were three hardy perennials of the student debating Circuit. There were three debates I went to a very Catholic school. so one of them was probably more common in my school than it would have been in yours if you'd had a debating society But the other two were absolutely stone cold hardardy perennials The first, as you've probably guessed, because I mentioned the Catholicism was the abulsion should abortion happen Eleanor went to a comprehensive school in East London. they had that debate too a lot. the abortion debate. So it wasn't just a fancy pants posh Catholic public schools, it was a really big part of debating Dear baiting Portion debate Do you want to have a guess what the other two were Obviously one was the Royal family. Owise I wouldn't be siting it now, right? So what was the other one So abortion, should we abolish the royal family and The third one It wasn't legalizing drug Not at my school anyway Uh, anyone So I leave it open? C I leave it Sall we Waiam see The Death penalty Everyone just went Oh, of course. So abortion, royal family, death penalty. I don't think I've ever done an interesting phoneon in about any of those. actuallyually. I don't think I've done an interesting phone in about abortion because it's not really a debate and everyone who thinks that it is is weird. I don't think I've ever really done an interesting phone in about the death penalty because it's not an interesting debate and everyone who thinks it is Fox hunting was up there as well. You're absolutely right. I should have gone with four But it's the rule of three. It's a rhetorical flourish, the rule of three. You give them three things. And I don't think I've ever done an interesting phone in about about the royal family, about whether or not it should exist I don't know whether you're going to come with me on this And if you don't, I need to warn you now I'll have to do another monologue So we'll have to come back from the hydration brerake And I'll have to set up another monologue. which will be about the king's finances and whether or not they B bler and a detailed driven. I shouldn't really say Bler B bller when there's a very strong chance that I'm going to have to turn it into a fascinating phone in in about six minutes time. We're looking at the news today, which you will be aware of. The monarchy's core funding will double within three years, rising to one hundred million pounds a year of public money by twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight It turns out that the king and his oldest son have paid fifty one point eight million quid No, that's the wrong figure. They've paid about fifty million quid in tax and income tax since twenty twenty two, but don't worry, they're still all right And the Buckingham Palace renovations, which have taken about a decade when they are complete Uh come in at three hundred and sixtyine million pounds, but the king ain't gonna live The king and quQeen will not be moving back into Buckingham Palace because they really like it at Clarence House. To which I've got two responses. One is, yeah, fair enough and the other is well what's it for then? What's it for if you're not living in it What are there? I mean, I know. E like I digress So that's the story. The King and the Prince of Wales have paid a combined figure of fifty million pounds Since the change of reign in twenty twenty two, he becomes today the first monarch to publish his tax bill. Payments to HM revenue and customs are calculated on the income the king and his heir receive from the Duchies of Lancaster and Cormore respect So Is it my fault Is it my fault? Is it just a reflection of my poor Presenting skills. Is it that you can tell when I turn my attention to the royal family that I am notot as engaged as I am with other subjects. So you could tell how engaged I was with the treatment of the Duke and Duchess of Sussex and the white supremacism that's baked into our class structure and the racism directed at Meghan Markle as she was. I can tell how engaged I am with that because I find it fascinating But whether or not we want a royal family, can you tell that maybe I'm not as engaged with that as I could be? Because then you know what I do next? Why am I not more engaged with it? It's so endemic to our national experience. I mean, you cannot teach. a young woman in this country that she can do anything when she can't be a princess but unless she marries a prince Do you see what I mean? You can't teach Young people that the sky is the limit there is no because in America, you can tell, particularly after Barack Obama, you can tell people that they could be president one day Thats That's the American dream. Anybody could be president don't quibble, all right? It's technically true You can't do that in this country Not even Kamy Badenoock could be queen A actually she probably could pull it off. That's not yeah. Apart from Kammy Badenoock, nobody in this country can be queen unless they marry the king or are the daughter of a monarch It is so constipated our class structure. It puts people in pigeonholes, it puts people in boxes. and consigns them to those boxes for the right. I mean, it should why don't I care more Have they done a job on me? Apart from that little window after the death of Diana Princess of Wales, when the royal family came under existential threat for judging everything so appallingly It has not any point in the forty years since I first started debating things at school At no point has this conversation justified the amount of energy dedicated to it by student debaters. Should we abolish the royal family So why Why? Is it not An interesting conversation anymore. I'm sure it used to be. Did it used to be? It did used to be, didn't it? They were good debates, weren't they? They were fun times. It was a good debate. It was better than the abortion one. That always got a little bit heavy going. The death penalty one a little bit morbid, Fox hunting one was fun, but the Royal familyam one was probably my favourite. We can have a briiant debate about the Royal familyam. Why doesn't it happen anymore What's happened? This is a phon in about why I don't have good phon ins. about the royal family And it's risky. I'm not going to lie to you. I wouldn't be doing this if I wasn't going on a holiday later. It's risky and it's up to you whether or not it works. And of course, it's not just enough to join in. You've got to join in in a good and impressive way No pressure at all. But if you don't, if I haven't got a selection of phone calls in two minutes time, addressing the question of why we don't have interesting phon in ins about the existence of the royal familyily? let's call it the abolition then. Why don't we have interesting phon in ins about the royal family? If I haven't got a selection of interesting calls, I'm going to do another monologue where will talk about something completely different How do you like them apples All right So the number you need, to tell me why you think it is very difficult for the most successful speech radio program in the history of UK commomercial radio to have an interesting conversation about the royal family. If anyone can do it, you'd think it would be the most listened to speech radio program in the history of UK commercial radio. If they can't do it, who can Why don't we have interesting debates about the royal family anymore And I suppose No, I'm not yet going to accept people actually having the debate. I want to have a conversation about why the debate is not interesting. So don't ring me to tell me what your answer is to the question of whether or not the royal family should be abolished. Ring me to tell me your answer to the question of why we can't have, why we've never had an interesting conversation about it. If you think it's my fault, that's fine I promise not to bite your head off I can't do. I promise to try my best not to bite a head on. So why are Why is one of the great one of the hardiest perennials British debate So dead in the water today. Why do we never hear interesting conversations about the existence or the abolition of the British monarchy anymore zero three four, five, six zero six zero nine seven three. And if I'm part of the problem, that's absolutely fine I just want to know how and why and whether or not we need to do something about it. Phone lines are open, it's eleven eighteen, you know the number. And remember, if I don't get good calls on this, I'm going to do another monologue It's twenty minutes after eleven. phones are only enjoyable if you can relate to them, says Joe in Licester. That's not true. Some of the best phonings we've had have involved things you can't relate to at all. For example, we have fun phonings about people like Richard Tice. You can't relate to that level of stupidity in any way, shape or form, Joe. So I disagree with that. phhones that we don't know much about, they can work. Look at Ashon Northampton. Schooling is on the straight of Horm Mooz this year. They're absolutely fascinating conversations about things we know nothing about Conversations where I haven't even made my mind out what my opinion is can be quite interesting I was worried actually when I began to feel the benefits of therapy becoming a much less strident and angry person. I was worried it might affect my job. I was worried I might be less good at this if I didn't have tubthumping pungent opinions all the time. The opposite turns out to be true. We have more enjoyable conversations So why does the Royal familyamily conversation in this country feel curiously What's the word I want? flat Why does it feel so flat? when it really shouldn't It underpins so much Steve's in thirst, Steve, what are you reckon I think it's madeaz Hang on Steve. hang on mate. I just no pressure, but in many ways, the successful failure of this entire topic now rests on your. bony shoulders I'm not sure that's fair. but it's made complicated and this is why people struggle with it because you get pulled in a million different directions So for example, these tax announcements today, E It's largely fluff, okay. So the fact that Prince William and the other fe Yeah, the other guy, they pay a lot of tax. Well, Kel Sapries rich man paid lots of tax. Well they don't all pay a lot of tax. A lot of them dodge it like it was going out of fashion. Well, quite, and that is the point is really we should be looking at has he paid the right amount ofax Now that's when it gets complicated when you've got their opaque finances. You've got three layers of stuff and then the public and private is all mushed. And so it all gets very complicated. But you care, I sense that you care. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah I do because as you said, you alluded to earlier, it' very it's very much an intricate part of the country, right rightly or wrongly and wrongly in my case T you know the class system is so ridiculous in this country because we still have a royal family. I mean, we still have one But it's not it's not it's not complicated. I don' I mean today's story is, but you're telling me Wh that wouldn't work as a phone and I'm not having that phone in. Should the royal family exist? Should this sort of that's not complicated to me. No I can give you that answer straight away. But it will be quite boring No, thanks, Steve. prorove me wrong. let's find out You're talking about the structure of how a country is run. and that we we forever talk about how terrible politicians are. I know and how how our system is wrong and un awful. And the royals and the constitutional monarchy is very much you know, is intrinsic to that. I know And so it's not boring. It is It's a rubbish phone inate Why is it bore? because why? Well that's my gus why I'm asking you. You can't just throw it back at me Well, you must have some idea, although you wouldn't pose it So I would say, no, it's not boring. I wish you could actually have seen my face then. I looked a bit like a dog chew chewing its own tongue. I just literally looked away from you with the switchboard. because you said you must have some idea and I thought he's right, I must have some idea. And I had a little think and I thought, I haven't got any idea. I've got no idea why this isn't a very good phot This is a good phon in, because this is a phon in about why we never have good phonings about this subject. and you're arguing that we do have good phonings about this subject, but I'm here to tell you that we don't and I'm in charge But what's your metric for that U Well, you saying it's not a good phone I'm just starting that thing again, hang on. I'm just gonna pull that face again. I look away from the camera and stop socking my own lip. I don't ever remember coming off air and saying to Eleanor, C, that one really slapped But isn't the point of phone in and this LVC to have a conversation and to get things going? So whether you come to? Yeah, so it's my fault then. So the answer to the question is because you're not a very good presenter. I I go He's cld down, mate. Right? No I would' say that no thatort. Keith, if you nod that furiously, you're going do yourself an injury, mate. Some people crick their neck when they nod like that. I've never seen him nod so furiously. Well to have as I said before, it is a broad topic because you know you can look at it. I mean, I'd say there are three reasons why there's a problem with the monarchy O rule of Rule of three. It's wrong in principle, o. The idea of ha being a democracy and having an unelected head of state and getting a job just as you doesad, right? I mean, that's pretty straightforward. do we get that? Yeah. And that itself has a corrupting influence on the rest of our political system Ii. e, you can be privileged and get jobs, you know the middle you know, that leakes into other things. Yeah The entrenched entitlement and privilege that just I guess have we been conditioned into not questioning it, then, is that why? Absolutely Well it's taken as a given, but so much nonsense gets spekewed out about the royals and how beneficial they are. like The defensive line straight away is, well, they don't have to pay income tax, but they do. Well why The rule of law in this country is that everybody should be treated the same through the law. So it's as not the monarch actually, is' it? The monarch can't be I don't think, put in court You're good at this. Have youve phone me before on royal phones? Yes.. Well surely' your pain subject then. Yeah, The problem you've got with the monarch as in the monarch can't be putght on trial. Well, no, the state itself can't be putght on trial, but the individual surely can If you wanted to sayay with Andrew, I would argue, if Tarles ever needs to be called to the stand, surely he should be made to abdicate then and then he can take stand Yeah, I'm going to crack on now. you've kind of P much. Yeah good no you can't carry on now I've just said I'm going to crackle Well, no, because it's an interesting topic, James,n't Well Okay, well other people are to judge that. You and me are disagreeing about how interesting this conversation is. The last point, I will go really quickly three You didn't let me finish my fr No I thought you'd only use that as a delaying tactic. No, The third one is the monarchy itself. even even if you are a royal Yeah. There's no reason why it has to be so corrupt and so bad It could be better. So the finances could be a lot more struct. I think you can say corrupt. You could say opaque I can I say corrupt because what with is a corruption is abusing entrusted power. Well yeah, moral You can talk about a moral corruption, but I wouldn't I don't, I don't want to get sued. It's unlikely that I would get sued, but no one is alleging actual corruption. It's more a sense of a sort of moral I always get the difference between turpitude and turpitude wrong. I mean roughly the same thing, but one's much stronger than the other I wrote it in my column the other day and they took out both words. I said use one or the other, depending on what the lawyers say and they didn't use either of them. twentyenty seven after eleven is the time. David's in East Molsey, David, what made you pick up the phone? Well, I think it is an interesting topic. and I think the King has just thrown a huge rock into the pool by announcing his tax affairs because He's actually sort of proving that there is some money there or reminding us that there is some money there and that he's graciously paying it voluntarily. But behind it all for me is the sort of The Duchy of Lancaster, what is it? The Duchy of Cornball, what is it? What does it do? Where does the money go? How much money is there How much money does the king get? How much money do all the acolytes get, all the other members of the royal family? Is that not published on the civil list some of that Some of it is, yes, but no, please, James. explain to me the Duchy of Lancaster. I think you pass it on the left hand side Anyway, look, it's the thing is it is it's much more It's a whole series of systems of of you know and there's the private money as well. So there's the thing that's owned by the monarchy and then there's the stuff that's owned by the individual. So the quQeen can pass stuff on to King Charles that is just like any mother passing stuff onto their son and we don't know as much about that And it is wheels within wheels, isn't it, as you describe it It is. And the other thing is that you know organizations like this prop up everything, you know, including local councils, you know, theres There's a lord left tenant for every county or maybe there's more than one lord left tenant. What does lord left tenants do when they're not actually standing beside the King on Telly Is it a well paid job? Do they get a free house or something like that?t I don't know anything about it, but I would like to. But How is this an answer to my question? Because you're say you're saying it should be more interesting, but we're not talking about it Well, we aren't talking about it, but actually, I think it's I can't understand the lack of curiosity. I think Maybe that's what I'm asking. Maybe that's what this union actually is, Danid. Yeah maybe people should point out you know, like things like what is the Duchy of Lancaster? becausecause it gets quoted in news reports from time to time, just as a sort of passing interest in a conversation. and you think Yeah, yeah. What is it? It is mad. Yes, it's the inuriosity that explains the lack of engagement and Well maybe it's a bit of a no brainer. and if we did know this is why the late Queen always said, donon't let the light in. Keep the mystique, keep the magic Exactly. theagic the magic is the secret. and the royal family, they wobbled a lot in the early nineties during the Anus horblis, etcetera. did. But they're back on their feet now course When the King went over to America and did that job as a guest of Donald Trump,, he was absolutely brilliant. play Stone cold blinder. It was one of the best moments of the whole presidency. It was, but then on the other hand, how easy was it for him to do that Who's he up against everybody has managed to dance around. Do you know that your name comes up on the screen? You must be an expert in another field Because your name comes up on the screen as someone who must be booked by other programmes Well, yes, I'm an expert in aviation. in the RAF and things like that.'re are you still the operations and safety editor of Flight International Magazine? No I have a slightly different title now I'm the consulting editor. There we go There we go. There we go indeed. because it doesn't happen very often, it just means that it means that we ring out to you sometimes from the studio. Well the thing is when I was in the RAF myself, you know king or as it was the quQueen at the time at that time was my boss. And I had an awful lot of time for her, and I still do when I think about her. Now King Charles, I think,, given that he's got the monarch's job, I think he's doing it reasonably well. But what is the job? . And as soon as you start thinking about that, there's a sense that it all begins to fall apart, which may be why we don't think about it Be we don't want it to fall apart. So there's a sort of psychological self deception going on. But then you've got the Daily Mail leading all the other sort of right wing tabloids There's just a huge amount of deference and you know praise for the well for the magic of magic for the magic the intangibles. And who doesn't like the trooping of the colour? blah, blah blah. A little bit of pageantry. I always think of the pyramids at that point. people always say, you need the royal F family, Otherwise you can't have the pageantry. And I think, Well, no you don't. That's like saying can't have the pyramid. The pyramid are still very popular s big old tourist attraction but there ain't f phaohs anymore. We're going to have people outside Buckingham Palace for the rest of our lives despite the fact that the king doesn't live there anymore which is mad It's not even a particularly impressive building ve been there U More on that later. It's eleven thirty three. Dominic Gallis has your headlin It's eleven thirty six. David was brilliant, wasn't he? In fact, Stehven Thurk was brilliant as well. But Maybe the way to have interesting phonings about the royal family is to ask why we never have interesting phonings about the royal familyily. But I sense that we're groping in the dark towards something significant And it is that the more you think about it, the more ridiculous it becomes So perhaps we've been gaslit into not thinking about it very much I think there's possibly something in that. Paul goes in a different direction. He he says, I think it's because people either love them or hate them. They're the personification of Malmite. There's never any nuance I mean, I think anybody with a strong opinion either loves them or hates them, but I don't think that you can rule out ambivalence as being part of the answer to my question. It just doesn't feel as important as it did in the nineteen eighties when we were debating it Every ten minutes. We're all preoccupied we're all too preoccupied wondering A, who we're going to get for the next fortnight, James and B, what major national crisis will occur while you're on your holidays. I did think that I'd got the dates wrong at the beginning of this week when the Prime Minister resigned. That is normally the kind of event that is reserved for when I am in a different country, for when I am overseas, but no, we've had a prime ministerial resignation. Perhaps this will be my first holiday in living memory where major major news did not unfold. Or I don't know, maybe the king will abdicate. We can't abolish the monarchy Right, Catherine, because then the Daily Express would no longer have a reason to exist Um, And it's a boring phoning topic, so Stephen, because it's essentially futile. No one is ever likely to change their mind. There are equally strong and weak arguments on both sides. and more importantly, no amount of phon ins on this subject will ever change the status quo as the establishment will always prevail I mean, spoiler alert, Steve, and that's true of almost every sub That's true of every good phone in I love the thought of minds changing, but I don't think that even we manage to achieve it as often as we would like to and as often as the facts should In sure. Meg's in Hereford, Meg, what made you pick up the phone James. So I think it's interesting because me and my fiancee have debates about this all the time. like healthy debates But we do frequently debate about it because his team it a waste of time, we should get rid of it. It takes up too much money. whereereas I'm team, but it's nice, isn't it? L it just brings us a bit of joy. pllus there's the tourism and the national identity and the stability and we tried it before in the sixteen forties and it didn't work. But the reason I think it's a boring topic. Yes is because primarily because the monarchy doesn't make policy. Obviously the king doesn't decide our taxes. spending laws, foreign policy, obbviously, they part of it in terms of, you know, they'll host things and so on, but they don't actually like whoever the monarch is at the time doesn't actually have the power to decide these things. But also so they've got a different there's a different sorry to interrupt you, but I just want to clarify. It's a very different salience to talking about politics go rightly or wrongly We think that politicians are in charge or will be in charge and therefore talking about them has a different salience to talking about the royal family. Exactly. And I think the big one as well is that the debate often does then end up becoming about personalities instead of principles Yeah but they can be good phones I mean tellell me that you didn't chuckle when I pointed out how stupid Richard Tys is. That was about a personality. Absolutely. You see No but like when it's the royals we often end up focusing on the individual rather than the actual institution as its whole And so then the debate often then becomes targeted obviously rightly or wrongly on specific people than the actual constitution. I think people are just relatively content with what like people I think they Stehven Thurk isn't Stehven Thurk isn't and somehow, I don't know. I mean, it's conditioned into us from a very early age, isn't it? I don't know what what your fiance's background Fairy tales, L at it Exactly, exactly. You don't question it. And I remember when my daughters wanted to dress up as princesses, albeit that they were a bit more Disney A bit more Disney than Windsor, it was gorgeous and I loved it and I didn't allow myself to sort of start trying to give them Republican lectures while they were pretending to be elsew are out of frozen Exactly. And I think like with the palace at the moment with the money and so on, I was reading into it last night when it first came out and we were talking about it and it said about a lot of it was to do with like boilers and wiring and the piping. and it was naturally kind of there were some safety concerns regarding that. And we were discussing it and obviously it is a lot of money and tourism does bring in a lot of money and they are going to be opening it up to like more because obviously the king won't be there But then we were just had a point on If the worst thing happened. well, if the palace burned down, like if something catastrophic happened and the palace burned down The peopleeople would mourn. people would mourn it as if it was a monarch themselves, I think. an iconic building really? Yeah, if you're not again, it's another London thing. like the conversation we had about London yesday, If you live here, you possibly don't imbue it with quite the same mystique as you do if you don't live here. It's going to be very weird. Danburned. it was it was a h it was so sad like worldwide. it was horrible But I do think that neither side has a monopoly because all the evidence if what if Sarqu is wr values rather than facts? What if Sariqe is right? It's boring because it's designed to be boring lest people actually start having the debate Yeahes, you need to start looking at the That would be David's point, I think, and possibly Steve's as well. That was lovely. I mean, I don't want to cast aspersions upon your domestic arrangements, but I doubt that these are the most interesting conversations that you have with your fiancee. Yeah. we love a healthy debate. We lovealth Well you're in the right place. eleven forty two is the time U Chris is in byif Fleet, Chris, what do you reckon The main issue that we have with why ultimately the debates seem boring is because although we have kind of the monarchist versus the Republican debate But I feel like the ground has shifted beneath our feet over the last thirty years. And in fact, we're living in a very different paradigm. so the principles really align with the debates we're having, because we can talk about who controls everything and who' ultimately the power behind the governments one at the same time, currently it's very clear that every policy that the US is currently making is because oil companies want to have licenses to drill. and That is really, you know so the principal debate is elsewhere, I think perhaps and there's too much great also people call entrenched. I wonder actually listening to all the calls because this word entrenched iss a lovely word, isn't it? So you're either entrenched or you're ambivalent And if you're ambivalent then neeither of the entrenched sides are likely to sway you. So if we had a heated debate about it on this program It would be to my ears and I accept that not everybody hears what I hear, it would be quite dull because I've heard it all before, and so have you We've heard it all before. tourism and this and that and the other. I think Meghgan Herifford made this point. We've heard that so many times before that it is going to seem a little bit boring But it wouldn't be boring if it felt as if there was a constituency of people that could go one way or the other. So if we were having a referendum at the end of next week on the abolition of the monarchy, it would somehow feel much, much more interesting than it would when we're not becausecause the ambivalent Guts The ambivalence is removed from the conversation, I think J just letting that settle. Are you there, Chris? Yeah, No I think that's wrong. I think ultimately. And again it's where it comes down when we talk about, you as you mentioned, obviously the infernal ratio, the for thousand eight hundred fifty two, getting where that sits, That's where that wobble sits. and it comes down to who can baby shout with loud and what's the point of me having a strong opinion or indeed engaging with this debate? is it ain't ever going to lead anywhay which means you've got to have a really strong opinion to start with and if you haven't, you're not interested. I think there's something in that. this what is this this is like the kind of the chemistry of the time that we spend together every day. Why some subjects work, whyy some subjects don't? Why some presenters Nick Abott could read the phone book every night and it'd be utterly compelling radio Other people can be conducting the technically most fascinating subject under the sun, and you'd rather have a milkshake It's coming up to quarter to twelve you're listening to Jam O'Bren on LVC up next the MP Wendy Chamberlain, who is doing the Lord's work when it comes to a medical condition. that well, it's controversial, it's confusing, and it's very close to my heart as well. Find out more after this It is eleven forty eight and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I hope I'm not going to get into trouble with my next guest, but I was scheduled to visit the House of Commons yesterday for a debate, but we took the view It was far too hot. And so we didn't go. Happily the debate unfolded anyway, led by Wendy Chamberlain, the liberal Democrat MP for Northeast Fife and crucially chair of the All partarty Parliamentary group on Pans' pandas. Now, if you haven't heard of Pans's Pandas, you probably have if you think you haven't If you read a headline that says things like Jack's parents were told he was autistic, in fact he has a little known condition that can be triggered by an everyday infection and cured by antibiotics, not quite cured, but that's the Daily Mail for once doing something of which I heartily and completely approve. It's drawing attention to a condition called PAan's pandas or pans and pandas, an infection triggered autoimmune neur psychiatric condition. And Wendy was leading the debate in Parliament yesterday because there is some movement on this that is largely positive. We want more. what did your interest in the broader subject, Wendy to begin Thanks for having me on, James. I think like any MP who gets interest in this condition, it's usually because a constituent gets in touch because they are struggling to get help and support for their child, both from a medical and indeed from an educational perspective. becausecause one of the things about this condition is the sudden onset of the symptoms that young people who get it experience is just pretty devastating for a family. It's OCD, it's ts, it's food avoidance. It's just basically absenting themselves from everyday life, from schooling, where they've normally been doing quite well. the infection trigger that you describe, it sometimes can be a few weeks after an infection So it's very difficult to put two and two together. So I had a constituent who basically was struggling for support, I got involved. They were fortunate enough to have the means to go private to get the right antibiotics and support. And that's very much the norm. And from my perspective, I just think of potentially those children who are undiagnosed with families who can't afforder support and getting and paying for private support. And therefore, those families in their entirety are written off. When we talk about the crisis in mental health and young people, I do wonder if PANS is part of that picture and it's just It's described as a rare disease. I'm not convinced it's rare. I think it's more undiagnosed. Yeah. so I mean, you know my wife works in this field as a psychotherapist and I think she would She would chime with that fear or suspicion, the idea that there will be a lot of families who are dealing with an almost overnight transformation of their child's behavior with some conditions that present as mental health conditions like OCD and then some physical symptoms like ticks and spasms, but which may well have a completely physical explanation in terms of brain inflammation caused by the strep virus or by black mold or by Lyme's diseases. There's so much work to be done on working out what it is and it could it could be good news in a sense for families who are still baffled by what it was that caused such a complete turnaround in their child's conduct That child's condition There are guidelines coming because when my wife first started working in the field, there was still a lot of resistance to even existing. It's often the case if you've spent ten years at medical school and then someone comes along and says, Oh, here's something you've never heard of. A lot of doctors, not all, happily, but some doctors will push back against that and tell you to get back in your box. But the guidelines that are coming later this year, I think they're due in the autumn They will hopefully change that part of the story Yeah, that's very much what we're hoping. As I say, I got involved in twenty twenty two. I able to debat in the last parliament where we got some positive response from the government, but progress has been really slow and some of that sadly is due to some resistance within medical practitioners. Sometimes we talk about a postcode lottery often in terms of conditions, but sometimes it can be a GP lottery, even within a practice. I've had another constituent where one GP will be supportive The other GP will basically not when they know a leadan upp is happening and antibiotics are required. So it is really challenging. So it's about that guidance getting out as far as possible, about it being accepted by the medical community. And clearly we need to have a lot more research. Now Pan's Panda, the charity that works with the EPPG They've you know they've been having to fundraise themselves for things like survey studies, etcet. and given how I am concerned and I think other MPs are that this might be more widespread. It's difficult to understand why we aren't putting a priority on this when we too look at children's wellbeing. So that was the point of the debate yesterday. You knew that the new guidance was coming in the autumn, but you wanted to focus the mind on these issues Yeah, we wanted to ensure that we were continuing to hold the government speak to the fire. It's the first time we've had the opportunity to properly get a response from the Labour government in relation to this, wanting to have that reassurance that they were addressing it. And for me,, my colleague ask some specific questions around what engagement is happening across the devolved administrations Be it's from a Scottish goovernment and NHS perspective, we're seeing exactly the being challenges for families The phrase that always resonates with me and I know you used it in the house yesterday is that parents are seeing their child disappear before their eyes Did you get what you wanted yesterday in the house I think we had cross party support. One of the other conservative MPs, Julian Lewis, was talking about the fact that actually that acceptance that it might be pans panda and some antibiotics being prescribed might be the thing that stops it getting deep seated. But we do often find as children go into that mental health wait times In that period, the OCD, the ticks just embed themselves. So it's much, much more difficult to unravel. Look, yes, we got positive noises from the government yesterday, but it's quite clear that we need to do more on this front. And one of the things that I've thought has been really important hearing directly from the children themselves. So we actually a couple of months ago had the Pan Panda Youth Board come into Parliament and engage directly with MPs And one of them was very good because he did state that know this grou we are the voters of the future and we're going to be paying close attention in terms of what you do. But to hear that, parents talking about their children disappearing overnight, but how terrifying must this condition be for a child who from overnight goes to being lively, outgoing, performing well academically to basically cut off from their friends, family and the community around them. It must be dreadful, dreadful. This is Then a rare example of things getting better, I think too slowly is what I would say, but yes, it feels like we are finally seeing some real consensus and real movement. but for those families who as they can't seek private health support in order to alleviate this condition, there is so much more that we need to do. and in fact it' a cost saving aspect as well as course because if you spend that money now, then you're going to save a fortune in the long term as with so much of your world so much of politics, Wendy, it's a funny, isn't it? It's A final question, there will be some parents listening to this and possibly some People listening to this who are hearing bells ring brain what do they do now? Do they get in touch with the charity? I mean Yeah I think I would recommend that in the first instance and certainly engaging to see that the difference resources they have that are available. And indeed get in touch with your MP. I mean for all that yes, it was very hot yesterday, it was a shame. someome of the families that we hoped to come along made the difficult decision not to. there are a lot of MPs who are engaged and interested in this work and actually more of them will be so when constituents get in touch with them to highlight the challenges that they're facing And for people who don't know, an APPG, an all party parliamentary group is a bit like committees. It's where in many ways Parliament is at its best at its strongest because it works across parties, it works with common goals whether to scrutinize or to frame or promote legislation. And so a quick shout not just to you, Wendy Chamberlain, but also as you say to Sir Julian Lewis who is, of course a conservative and judging by his comments yesterday, really knows his stuff And Julie Minz, the Labor MP up in Carlisle and I think Freddie Van Mielo, one of your fellow Liberal Democrats. Yeah, I they're really, really interesting to hear people talking about knowledge they have come to as a consequence of representing their constituents So time be a reminder that you do some good after all you look We certainly try to do our best and on this stuff where you can reach cross party consensus, I think it's really easy to just think of politics as we come in and we sort of are completely blinkkered and we don't engage with other parties. You know For myself a liberal Democrat, you know when I started in twenty nineteen, there was eleven of us. You don't get anything done when there's only eleven of you without trying to work on a more collaborative basis has beautifully put Wey Chamberler, thank you, Liberal Democrat andP for Northeast Fif,ers as you hear, also the chair of the All party Parliamentary Group on Pans Panders, which is I think I told you this a while ago actually, something that is going to become more and more familiar to people as more understanding. is achieved. I'm going to squeeze in one more call and given that that was a Scottish MP, it's appropriate that we will take a Scottish call on the question of why those royal phonins don't necessarily sing in the way that most of our phonins do Eileen's in Hamilton What would you like to say, Eyileen Good morning, James. I think it's a brilliant phone in because we've seen to your researcher there as well as questioning each other and having a debate on it. It's made me question myself this morning and question own opinions as a as a practicing Catholic and My family is of Irish descent Fundamentally, I am against the royal family. However there's an element of we're not going to get rid of them They are here to stay. So let's use them to the base of our ability The F' House is a great example of where the royal family can benefit parts of society and lean on social justice, which I'm very strong about really passionate about. So let's Let's use them more as a commodity. I just saying Oh they're lovely. I think the king would agree with you on that. I think the king does I see his role as being very much engaged with his subjects' lives. I don't like the word subjects any moreore than you do, but them's the braaks. That's how it works. And that's the king's foundation Dumfrey's house, which is Again, something about which very little is known. and I think Jess Phillips, do you know this? amazing It's amazing. I think Jess Phillips said recently that the Kings Foundation was pretty much the only charity in her constituency doing a certain type of work with young people, offering a kind of place of sanctuary for young people. I could have got that wrong though, so don't sue me if I have I promise. I should add as well, would be under more public trans scrutiny So for example, just putting it out there a a bit controversial twelve million pounds was paid to someone former Qeen son didn't know didn't me didn't will ever If there was more scrutiny all those years ago, I firmly believe Virginia would still be alive And those women would feel and those victims would feel more believed and more. fatible and there and that accounts for actually happen. And that ties in with what David was saying about the money and about it being all very well that we're learning about the tax today. But if we'd known that someone who is essentially a public figure was privately making the payment that you allude to, then yeah, maybe some alarm bells would have gone off and some scrutiny would have followed. And you remind us of all the different elements of the conversations that are fascinating, even if sometimes it feels as if the central element on the monarchy's existence or otherwise has has lost its sting in recent years, as Sharqe suggested, possibly almost deliberately. Well o, I stand corrected. I thought that was fascinating. Every call was good there Not good enough to carry on for another hour, I don't think. I don't think the appetite is there. and there's a story I want to talk about that It just again plays into one of my all time favorite subjects, which is about education as an end in itself rather than a means to an end H's five minutes after twelve. James writes Rich yourour response to that question about the Duchy of Lancaster was brilliant. I wonder how many people picked up on it Enough Richie, enough people because you got it and even if no one else did, that's my little gift to you. Keith got it as well That's my little gift to you. If you've no idea what I'm talking about, you can listen back on the global player to the last hour of the programme and a nice little I would estimate early eighties Birmingham based pop reference that I managed to squeeze into the conversation about the royal family that I was having with David And it's good to know I'm not the only child involved in the programm today, Rich is with me every step of the way I' I'd like like this. I need to confess something to you. I think I've told you this before But as I get older and as my children, reach the relevant age to what I'm about to discuss. I think a it more and more My university education was completely wasted on me I mean completely wasted It was a waste of money and it was a waste of time And that was entirely my fault If I could go back now and spend three years four if you include the year that I failed. I told you it was a waste of time If I could go back now and spend three whole years of my life doing nothing but learning and reading and studying and listening Without any real other worries, or I'd hold down a job in the union bar or I'd be selling suits on Regent Street on Saturdays, but I didn't really have any other worries. My rent was Iid my this is of course in the days before tuition fees. What an absolute joy that was And here's the thing, when I say that in those terms, You don't hear somebody describing a commodity You don't even hear somebody describing something that has an immediate application in the workplace They you I wish I could spend three years reading listening. and learning You you get to the end of the first week of your holiday and your relationship with books has changed because you can spend two or three hours reading one and you suddenly remember what it was like when you used to read like eight books in the summer holidays or more sometimes. and you just lose that as you get older. You're too busy, you're too easily distracted even without the invention of smartphones There was too much going on And I used to be proud of my approach to my studies because I got a good degree And I got it by. doing the same things that I did when I got a good A level a good set of A level results. I did absolutely Naffle for most of a year and then I spent a week cramming furiously and my brain was such that that was enough to get me over the wire. Of course, if I'd worked all year or if I'd crammed for a month, I'd have done even better, but I did well enough and I was proud of the fact that I didn't do much to get my results, whereereas now I'm ashamed Isn't that a strange thing That in my early twenties I'd be proud of the fact that I could get a good two one from an excellent university without having done any work Except the year that I actually failed, which is a slightly different story kind of forgotten to give up one of my papers that I was entered for And I was proud of that. I liked that kind of sense of a bit like a kind of predictable right wing newspaper pundit both boasting about how little work they did. I think I've seen Jeremy Clarkson doing something so and I like Jeremylarkson for the record Not as much as he likes me, but I do like Jermryy Clarks U And now I'm just ashamed Now, I don't think that I wasted my dad's money or my mum's money particularly because it wasn't built in that way the higher education system, and I was self funding for the repetition of the year that I failed But I was, um, I'm ashamed now that I wasted that wonderful opportunity. I'm never going to get it again I don't think. I did a course. I didn't tell you at the time, I don't think because I thought you might laugh at me. I did a course earlier this year at the City Lit College in Central London, which is largely adult, well, it's entirely adult education.ge It's entirely voluntary What do I mean by that? You can do anything there. I think you can do like ballet dancing and basket weaving or you can do nineteenth century continental philosophy. It's one of the most wonderful places. that I've discovered in London in the last few years. I've been here a long time now. There's not a lot left to discover. But you know what Dr. Johnson said He who is tired of London is tired of life. But what I loved about this building was the It was full of people who were generally older than me. I think there must be a very high incidents of retired people there because you've got to be free in the day go and do a course. There's more in the evening, but mine was in the day. so I suspect if I was going in the evening, there would have been younger people there, people who were still working and then going along in the evening to the to the highigher Eeducation College And what I loved about the place, the building was the energy The energy. There was people who were engaged with an educational environment in ways that actually were inspiring. People were not there to get a better job at the end of it. People were not there because they were on a conveyor belt from kindergarten and the next stage of that conveyor belt because of their background and their class was university They certainly weren't there to faff about for three years and then cram in the final weeks and get a half decent degree. They were there to learn for learning's sake Isn't that an interesting phrase too learn for learning's sake Why are you studying that? what? I want to get a job in that sector. Why are you studying that? Well? I think that it might Why are you studying that? Be I just want to know stuff. I want to do it Think about it in physical stuff, you go to a dance class You're not expecting to become a Prima ballerina. You go to a tap class, you're not expecting to be the next Ginger Rogers or the next Frediste, you're just enjoying it purely for enjoyment. But an intellectual, an academic cause used to be normal that we'd do it purely for enjoyment, that the education was an end in itself. Drama. All right, I've told you now I did a drama course. did a acting course could actually If you're very good, I do my I did my audition piece for Eleanor the other day and she just looked at me as if I was behaving inappropriately I thought you'd be more interested and excited by my adventures in drama classes at the stage of my life abbsolutely stone cold Be before I'd even drawn bret it's a great monologue, as well You know, the one that Edmund gives about astrology, about how he would have been as I am I would have been that I am had the maidenliest star in the firmament twinkled on my Keith fallen asleep. Keith's actually falling asleep. Wakeit Keith up, will you? Eleanor? Eleanor did a degree in English and she's bored rigid by my. ler monologue, case actually fallen asleep So I don't think I'm communicating the sense of energy to my own colleagues that I deriveed from that place, but I know you get it, right? That idea of people gathering there, making friends, but learning and studying whichich is why I find these stories so dispiriting Young men studying arts and humanities are worse off on average if they go to university than classmates who do not. goovernment data, Median earnings published yesterday If you're in your mid twenties, I Then in the twenty twenty three to twenty twenty four tax year partarticularly with arts degrees The kids that went to university will be earning less than the kids who didn't. If you want to know And this kind of tallies with the point I made about commoditization The biggest earners were those who studied economics at Cambridge University So if you did economics at Cambridge, you'll be earning one hundred five thousand pounds a year on average within five years of graduating The lowest ranked course and institution combination was Allied Health at the College of Integrated Chinese Medicine I don't even know if they should publish this stuff Is that a phone name Should they even be publishing this stuff? Do we have to turn every degree into a financial transaction. Because if you go to the city Lit collollege in London, those people there aren't calculating their enjoyment of that degree or the value not doing degrees generally, but they're not calculating the value of that course by how much they will earn as a consequence of having done it. They're calculating the value of that course by how it makes them feel and what it does to them And now we have government. Is this new? haveave we always publish government data on what the relationship is between a certain course and income? Have we? I don't remember this from when I was of that age graduates who had studied law economics, business and management did better Women earning between six thousand two hundred and thirteen thousand two hundred pounds more than their cohort, their contemporaries who didn't go to university men slightly less, two thousand six hundred to eleven thousand pounds more than their non graduate peers. But the golf, the biggest golf is between men who did arts degrees versus men who did no degree And men who did arts degrees earn less than the men who did no degree And What's the question then Young men studying Ats and humumanities degrees are worse off on average if they go to university than classmates who do not. The question is, are they really Are they really? Are you someone who listened to me. talking about wasting my time at university and Well, I'm glad I didn't. Are you that per? Well, I'm glad I didn't. I got loads out of doing my arts degree. What I didn't get was a qualification that's going to improve my earning potential The idea that I'm worse off than the lands who didn't go at all Goodness me no I discovered things that will be with me for the rest of my life, whether it's a poem or a novel or a picture Whatever it may be, the idea that a degree is to be discouraged because you won't earn more money as a consequence of having done it presses me actually But I'm so out of the loop on this I left university so long ago that my experiences are Iirrelevant And I've got one daughter at university whose approach to her studies is so completely different from mine that I learn little from her, except what it would be like to be the kind of student Who loves leararning I had these moments of loving it I had these little moments of loving it I never really got that sense of being there like I got when I was at the city Lit collollege and everybody was just there because they wanted to be and they wanted to learn So What do you get from an arts degree if not money And of course, I don't want to confine this to people who have done a degree I'm interested in why there is a growing sense that they're trying to disparage and denigrate the arts as an area of learning. You know I have a big theory about fascism I think that fascists hate the ardts. becausecause the arts teach you empathy The arts are one of the only ways in which you can imagine what it would be like to wear somebody else's shoes. You watch a play about a refugee, your attitude to refugees will change. You watch a play about a sportsman perhaps. You watch a play about the England football team under Gareth Salssgate. and your attitude to all of that will change. Your attitude to racism might change. Of course the people most in need of the exposure to these kind of things are often the people least likely to Experience it, That's why putting arts in schools is so important, gettingting to people when they're young But I hate the way. Was it Oscar Wilde who said a cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing Sounds like Oscar Wild. let's leave it with Oscar a man who knows the value of the price of everything and the value of nothing. Headlines like this An arts degree doesn't pay for men in their twenties, lookooks to me as a man in his fifties likeike an example of knowing the price of everything, but the value of nothing. So what do you get from studying the arts And I know you could come away now with sixty grands worth of debt, which might make my position both romantic and ridiculous, but that's what the phones are for To tell me James, you've got to give your head a wubble You're being romantic and ridiculous. An arts degree is not worth anything because of the amount of debt that I've come out But what do you get from studying the arts people who've never studied the arts don't know What is it that you get zero three, four, five, six zo sixzero nine seven three is the number that you need And if you're older than me and you've studied later in life, I'd love to hear your answers to that question When you're not there because of the conveyor belt, you're not there because it's bugggin's turn. You're there because you want to be What do you get from studying the arts that has nothing to do with earnings. potential Hit the numbers now you will get through. Oho three, four, five, sixzo sixz nine seven three is the number. This is LBC It's a funny one, isn't it? Because all of that kind of Ialutin romantic theorizing could be pointless and irrelevant and anachronistic and completely out of date because of student because of tuition fees. I sit here and say to you, tellell these people why it's worth doing an arts degree even though it doesn't improve your learning. And you can I think be forgiven for saying to me, shhut up and sit down, James. That might have been true in nineteen ninety one. But it's definitely not true in twenty twenty six. But I want to explore it. And I want to still to the nub of the question of what you get out of it other than the money and other than the earning because it's quite I mean do you understand why I find it depressing? to see a list of degrees linked to earning power I genuinely don't know whether that's a new thing or not, but it wasn't I went to the London School of Economics where You're probably more conscious of the relationship between your qualification and your earning power because so many of the students there go into the city and go into financial jobs and even there on the Bachelor of scienceon economics faculty, even there Learning for learning's sake was kind of recognised and valued. but maybe the world has changed so much that what I'm saying, what I'm thinking, what I'm feeling begins to sound U either either ridiculous or out of date or both, but I really hope not I really hope not I really hope it is still worth having a conversation about why an arts degree in particular, because they are in some sense, that the least Valuable in financial terms is valuable for other reasons. Maureen's in Chichester. Maureen, what would you like to say Well, I'm absolutely feel I have an understanding that people who go to university straight from school or don't have any sort of early education, early higher education, I would say Because I know what it feels like to be an adult that's uneducated as well as an educated and highly educated actually now adult as well. So I get the difference between those two things. and can therefore value, if you like education much. Wow much better than if I'd either just gone straight to university or never had a chance. So I get tell me about. tellell me about what changes Well, what changes you get to understand a world that you were completely confused about actually Because I'm in my seventies, I used to feel There must be something wrong with me. I didn't understand these things. Everybody else seemed to understand it but not. What sort of things Well, politics mostly So I open University social science degree was where I started off. So I didn't get all that lovely stuff that kids do when they go off to university all that. amazing sort of friendship making thing It It was just an intensive education for me whilst I was bringing up my kids and Why did you want to do it I always had that feeling that there was something out there that I didn't understand that I didn't get. And even though I read, you know classic books and did did stuff like that and pondered things I always felt that, you know, somehow I must be stupid if I don't get it So So yeah, an education source. helped with that and then helped with a career. Then I went off and and became a nurse therapist But it would have had a value even if it hadn't had a career application. Because what you've described it's almost the core of you was changed by study. Completely, James, That's absolutely what it is. I learned how to learn. That's so, so important. That's what kids get when they go to university. They learn how to learn Just out of curiosity, why was it not a path available to you when you were sort of eighteen, nineteen? Oh well becausecause I'm nosy Girls at that age. Especially when you're ucated in the east end of London, where there weren't the places for girls was quite a barrier to females. And do you know where I'm coming from when describe a sense of depression at seeing this chart of degrees linked to earning power Yes, I absolutely do I absolutely do. and I hate the idea that kids have got to pay for that higher education I do. So maybe this isal and an inevitable consequence of that. Well Thankk you, B. You put that beautifully. How quickly did you feel the change in you when you started studying that learning to learn? How quickly did you become more intellectually secure or at least less insecure I will say my absolute first tutorial was an amazing experience. I had a lovely chap called Mr. May who had been a tutor at that I think And I said, I handed in my first essay and said, Look, this is no good. Please just tell me and I won't waste anybody's time. And he came back with no need to rewrite Maoren. You're definitely one of my star students. Oh M What a lovely mom. Oh no. Do you know who never would have said that thing you said to him about it, possibly not being any good A man Yeah It reminds me of callers to the show sometimes. Never get a bloke. ever saying, Oh, I'm not going to be as good as all your other cour. always and that's part of what you refer to, I wouldn't mention it otherwise, but it's part of what you referred to as the common experience when you were in your late teens. expectations really. U Casey's in Barnick, Casey, what would you like to say Well, I'm slightly cheating because I didn't get a degree. I got a diploma in the seventies doing going to a drama school, which did a combined teaching course And I thought,, I'll never do teaching. And I'm seventy two now I'm still working. and of course teaching is part of that And What I don't understand is we are all different. I value what other people Ging. But I like you think learning for learning's sake and teaching children from six to eighteen every day, giving them confidence, giving them a voice, letting them enjoy a variety of literature, being in other people's shoes makes them human. makes humans different from the animal species is our wanting to record our value of the richness of our culture And that makes our life more beautiful and aesthetic, and pleasing when we're doing those grinding jobs some people have to do. And if you don't bring on the musicians, if you cut all the courses and you devalue drama and art and music, what have you left? the slaves for the planet. Penck, I think you've killed the phone in Stone deead, Kasey. That's s of mean. what can we add to this What the Greeks and Romans knew they valued art and sculpture and d. Do you sense I'm just drawing upon your ears now, if I may, do you sense that the direction of traffic is changing, that the discourse is becoming more negative about I think there's a slight change because although the numbers for say studing music have really gone down. and orchestras. Okay, pace change for sure. But you know yourself the richness of of literature. I also examine so I see children and different plays being performed. and we have to keep wanting to use it. you know, I love, you know, diverse Sure And that is wonderful that we are getting that, but we have to support the art We are a civilized society. We have to record who we arep. Empathy is so important yeah, I mean, I bet you're a brilliant teacher Well, I enjoy it and I get so much from it. Listening to their ideas. you can you and forgive me if this is an unfair question. I don't want to put you on the spot, but can you describe What happens to a child who hasn't been exposed to any of the things that you've just waxed lyrical about? when they when they thanks to the ministrations of a teacher like you, when they actually do discover them Well, you often see children come in who don't feel their opinions are valued or they come from a sort of strict situation. We know class sizes, you know they're being to reduce a bit, aren't they now? But you know when they got big they don't get know the show and sell mentality allowed to be excited about their experiences or a rock or a stone they bring into class and allowed to say why it's important. that it's sort of not valued and their chance to speak aloud. they're getting their parents to go to their university interviews, I've been told. I don't know they answer the phone to the boss and they say, Oh sorry, Mr. Smith's in the loop. I mean you mean young people sort of feel that they matter through the arts more than they would do otherwise I think it gives them a voice, It allows them a safe space to share their thoughts and opinions and ideas and to get excited about them And yet, I have to point out that we are all three of us. the first two callarters and me are all of an age where the access to these things was, if not free, then in my case, a fraction of the cost of what it is now. and that doesn't in any way dilute the beauty of what you've said But it possibly changes the relationship of that young person with the with the experience. I don't know. you know, coming away with fifty sixty thousand pounds worth of debt, then It doesn't make anything you've said not true, but it possibly makes it harder to Justify on the part of a young person U Tel thirty one is the time. Amelia Cox has your headlines twelve thirty four is the time. This story has been around for most of this week, but it hasn't received anything like the coverage that you might have expected. And so I'll just divert from our conversation about an arts degree for a moment with your permission. A UN Commission of Inquiry says that Israel has deliberately targeted Palestinian children resulting in genocide crimes against humanity and war crimes in the Gaza Strip as well as war crimes in the occupied West Bank It alleges that Israeli authorities and security forces have deliberately carried out acts inflicting death and severe bodily and mental harm on hundreds of thousands of Palestinian children and that those killings continued even after last October's ceasefire in Gaza There are only really three responses to this story, aren't there? There is utter disgust and condemnation There is Museum approval or some sort of argument that, oh, it's all very sad, but it's inevitable or there's denial. And those final two categories are often sometimes quite hard to tell apart. because you will remember when the Israeli government that utterly rejects this report calling it a libelous sham U they used to say the same about the figures Coming out of Gaza, they used to say, you can't trust those and people would come on the radio and'd say,, you can't trust those figures. They're from the Hamas Run Health Ministry But of course, as we often say on this programme, some things are not opinions, some things are just counting And eventually the official figures would have to be U Eat bugs I don't say they would have to be, but you would find it very difficult not to acknowledge the official figures because they kept the names. They kept a record of all the names And they did, again, in a story that was criminally underreported, the Israeli government eventually accepted that the figures that had been put out from Gaza were on the money as it were. seventy three thousand and thirty five is the bare minimum. number of people killed in thosera Israeli attacks and that includes twenty one thousand two hundred and eighty children Th figures from the Territory's Hamas Run Health Ministry considered reliable by the UN because as I told you several times They kind of keep keep a record. they keep the Keep the names. So now we've got the commission accusing Israel of committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza. That was a report last September that found there were reasonable grounds to conclude that four of the five acts of genocide defined under the nineteen forty eight Genocide Convention had been carried out by Israeli authorities and security forces Again, the government in Israel called it distorted and false, but it is I suppose inevitable that people who denied what was going on are now ignoring the evidence that it was. going on, which is why Perhaps some people are not drawing attention to these stories and these reports and these findings that include, of course, humanitarian organisations in Israel and beyond, but it's the targeting of children in Gaza directly by shooting at their vital organs using precision weapons such as quadcopter drones and snipers and by using high impact weapons in strikes on residential buildings, schools and displacement camps crowded with children that this port focus is on And as I said, maybe some people need the arts in order to develop empathy and maybe some people will never have any empathy at all? because my coverage of these issues has been really kind of defined in some ways by the outrage some people seem to have at the sense of Heartbreak at the death equal heartbreak at the death of a Palestinian child or an Israeli child because of course the Palestinians or at least Hamas were alsoso guilty of war crimes and other grave violations of international law on the seventh of October twenty, twenty three. you keep If you're normal, you find it easy to acknowledge both of those things And of course, inevitably you count But only got to guess if you're normal. twelve thirty nine is the time. Back to the conversation about the arts. And I suppose I should apologize for the fact that I didn't share that with you, soon. I just presumed it would get a slightly higher status on the national news agenda, but hey ho, here we are. Paul's in Cventry, back to the arts and their value, Paul. what would you like to say Hi James, nice to speeher. Yes, so I I'm in my thirties and I studied contontemporary studate of Eployment at Uni And I completely agree with you and that is much more to the world than just finances. Yeah. But you have come out with a large amount of debt, of course And and on' still not rich. stillill not financially rich that I think there's I think My perspective of it is that you can be miserable in the highest paying jobs. in the world. And so for me, I get a lot more worse. out of what I learn about people through my job. so if I could just explain briefly one of my projects that, take your time. brought it about. And I're in a project called the Museum of Me, which essentially plunks a museum structure in a community space and then works with ten residents of that area. and every day it becomes a museum of a different resident. And it gets to share human stories and we have an opening ceremony where the community can come along and have a drinks and cleose reception meet somebody of their community and I've been doing it a couple of months ago I kind of did it in Philly Hoall and it was with the newly arrived members that have come to Solly Hall over the past few years That include included Ukrainians, that included Hong Kongers included people who put up Ukrainian families just what you learn about them and what you get to share about them and see and kind of The environment around them really ten pride that they're part of Solly Hall and that they're part of us is to me much more meaningful than gettinget one hundred and five k in five years. Was this your own idea That's fantastic Yes, I mean's a beifful idea you are Paul O'Donneald And Paul O'Donnell, ye. I'm just looking you up. I'd not heard of that before, but there's loads here. That's really, really impressive. And I like we did we told the story of an eight year old person he came over from Hong Kong when he was three now lives in Tullyhall. It's very cheeky, very playful. And it's just I think the arts is really good at kind of breaking that division that we're all feeling in the world at this moment in time because when you apply it to a person and you see Jan or you see Sandra or you see whoever it is. And you read what actually is going on behind this and how They've got to the point they are at this moment in time That's where I feel like the power, particularly in the world at the moment. That's where the real power and value of arts is that isn't financial, it's personal, it's community, it's bringing people together, connecting You are you are I love this tagline that you have on your website. You are you you are worthy of a museum And that of course means everybody is worthy of man. Because every subject is a story Yeah. And every person's individual story, I feel is universal. and What we really love and literally every single person we've done a museum about has said to us I don't know why you picked for me. There's nothing interesting about me. And then you asked like two more questions. We had a really great interaction in Charildlesmore, which is my home patch, where we did the museum and the local radio were there interviewing people. And a woman kind of went, Oh, I was thinking about applying to be a museum star for this, but I didn't think there was anything interested about me. And then two questions later, it turns out that she and her sister were the first conjoined twins to be separated in the UK. Yeah, That's incredible. How do you pick people then? So so people apply, do they It's a bit different every every time, so We don do it because we're bas in commentary they can go ye Cmentary. but we've just been promoted to Pome your L and so we're doing it We're going to be doing it later on in the year when the season starts again with football fans who stick to the teams through seconds in. Oh I love that. I love it. I love it. I love it. Where did you get the idea from U my arts degree maybe. Just while you were studying, you just came up with this idea of recognizing My degree was in contemporary theater and performance, so it's a little bit different, but And it taught me The skill it taught me was that there's future beyond this present, like what is next for arts? What is next for theater, what is next for the world? What do we need? And so It's built in me kind of a way of going, okay, somebody else is doing that. How do I do something different or Lvely st brilliant thing. And a word, if you would just on your background, because I got one text. I've lost it now saying that this was a conversation confined to people privilege, which I thought was a bit unfair. Lot is that sir? A word on your background because I got one critical text before you came on saying that this was a conversation confined exclusively to privileged people and that people who weren't privileged would not recognize all of the things that we were describing in relation to the art. I think they meant private education. I just wondered what your background was. I mean, for the first five years of my life, I would say I was in a quite wec and back not a working class background, not particularly deprived at any point in my life, but have moved into kind of a middle class after that, into a middle class kind of environment, I wouldd say. But I live with diabetes, I live with I'm homosexual, like for those There's lots of different ways to deceides for what privilege means That's a very true point. And I'm pretty sure that text would not have included you in that criticism. And it was a reasonable point that was made. I just wanted to pick up on it. I love this. you just Google Museum of Me to find out more about the work that Paul and his colleagues do That's absolutely gorgeous. and then every subject has a picture. that you can that you can click on and find out more about them. because that's so true, isn't it? I'd never ever ever thought of that every person is a story. It's twelve forty five A bit cheeky this, but I'm going to play you two clips from full disclosure this week because they're relevant to the phon in that we're having And because I've told you quite a lot about the subject of this week's interview, Beb and Kidron or Baroness, Kidron to you, sort of best known For her filmmaking, she made the film of Jeanette Winterson's Oranges Are not the only fruit. She's got an extraordinary CV actually all sorts of films. T Wang Fu, Thankks for everything, Julie Numar, you probably Remember that starring Wesley Snipes and Patrick Swayze. that's after she moved Hollywood something that she that she talks about. She directed the second Bridget Jones film with you know who's in that Renny Zellwigger, Colin Firth and Hugh Grant loads of stuff I mean, just loads of stuff And then she set up the Kids Film Club, which is relevant to what we're talking about. Today, an educational charity that sets up after school film clubs in England and Wales, free to all state and primary. Secondary schools. Gordon Brown heavily involved in that when he was Chancellor. But I told you about her yesterday, if you weren't already familiar with her because she made a film in twenty thirteen called In Real Life which looked at teenagers and their relationship with the internet. and her life changed direction at that point. She made another film or two subsequently, but she's dedicated most of her energies since then to campaigning. for action on children's access to and use of social media. I mentioned to you yesterday that she must be the first question I asked her douring the interview was about how restest of the world has finally caught up with her because she's been in this space since twenty thirteen. And one of the things she was most interesting on was relevant to what we were talking about in the first hour So how on earth do we end up with tobacco Bing legislated against when its health negatives are so obvious. How on earth does the fossil fuel lobby continue to poisonous and have support from politicians. someome of whom are being paid, some of them are probably too sick. to understand anything and don't even need to be paid. I think that the social media scandal that has engulfed. younger people right across the world probably have similar answers. And that I think was one of the questions I'd put to her U and that's what this was in response to I had a chat with someone who was, if I could say, you can't get any higher up in the security services in the US. And they were saying to me, you know that they were looking at a piece of research, they were looking at why government doesn't work. And they did a really interesting piece of work. And what it showed was that until the mid eighties in America Congress, the Senate, People used to vote according to the interests of their area Kentucky. you know, u California New Y what would be good for their constituents? And they were ruthless because they wanted to be re elected. Since the mid eighties They have consistently voted for what suits the top percent of earnest Democracy is no longer representative. It is bought Guys are trying to get in power and stay in power They are not seeking to represent us. And when people look their own choices I ask them to look at that, right? And I'm going to say something so outlandish, which is I don't care anymore Yeah whether they're left right or in the mid. I get that. Yeah. What I want to know is Are they independent Are they for me Yeah. And I don't mean me in a tiny way. I mean me in my neighbourhood. yeah. And that is what it is. And so I think the answer to your question is we've been Bullet and and and combination of bullied inter distraction, so we're all worrying about the wrong thing, yeah. We're all sort of just busy scrolling and worrying about how thin we are. And at the same time You know, the people who supposed to represent us have given up that job. And they're representing the other guys. And in that toxic mess comes through Five companies that seek to rule the world. Literally. Literally Of course I suppose, listening back to that because I conducted the interview a couple of weeks ago, listening back to that, I suppose if you are not happy with the amount of priority being given to the interests of the richest people in the world by the electorate, then you could just give five million pounds to a politician in the hope that the scales would be tipped even further away from ordinary people. That's just just thinking out loud. She'll get on to the subject of the tech itself shortly, but I want to squeeze in one or two more calls before then on the question of the actual value of an arts degree rather than the price of it. Matthew is in Bexley Heath, Matthew, what would you like to say Well, I'm doing a physics degree at the moment and I'll be quite honest is that like the most value I get from my degree is not even the very sciencey sort of things is quite a lot of the very interdisciplinary modules and the other sort of things a little newew. And looking at my friends who did sociology and all these more like political degrees and more liberal arts degrees There's immense value that you can get from just being able to grapple with the sort of ideas they learn in the course. and I do have a little bit of jealousy, I'll be honest. how interesting And yet your degree is probably more Um financially, beneficial when you graduate Yeah, yeah, that's why I picked it to begin with. Fair play. But I mean, you're describing swings and roundabouts, aren't you? In a way? It's you know The trade offff you get may hopefully will hopefully be financial, but you sense when you look at some of your peers that you're losing something as well or you're not accessing something as well Yeah. I think as well like time goes and also with the overlim and presence of just kind of AI and also how it's used in media and just kind of inish like that. like I've got my opinions. Yes, of course. Well, you're obviously not shy of critical thinking either. But just give me a quick sentence on what it is you think they get that you don't is well I'm trying my hardest to get to their sort of understanding because I've been trying to supplement my myself with some reading and all that sort of stuff But when you do a degree, you spend an immense amount of time doing these sort of activities and tasks and the amount of research that goes into like even to my like, you know, u lab reports might have spent spending ungodly amount of time University they force you to spend a large amount of time on these very important activities Yeah space. I mean, this is I don't want to sound all sort of like an old beard, a grrey beard, but you think you're struggling to find space and time now, wa wait wait uil you might. But I know what you mean. I do know what you mean. and I would say in full patronizing old git mode, I would say that if you're even thinking like this then you're okay. If you're even aware of what it is that you think that you're not getting, you're probably getting it. You're certainly aware of its value, which means you're okay. The people I would worry about most are the people that Oscar World was talking about when he described knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. At least I think it was Osc World. I haven't checked I know that it was Bb and Kidrren that I was talking to for full disclosure this week because I've checked, and I'm always slightly gratified by how many people how many of you have already listened to it by the time I come to plug it because it drops early morning on Fridays And I can tell you now that this has already garnered an awful lot of approval from people who've listened already. She's a magnificent woman. She's a fascinating person and her life has been dedicated laterally to dealing with precisely the social media and technology issues that the rest of the world has finally woken up to and here she is on that subject The thing that irritates me the most is when a minister comes to the dispatch box and says we couldn't possibly have anticipated. or we don't know enough orr we have to see how this rolls out. And I go, No, we don't. We understand. We've known for a long time. It's political, it's not practical. stop pretending it's practical. I think that the public anger about AI parental anger about social media, the fury of young people about where their jobs are going I think that's really proper It's really important And I would say right from the get go That's where my book ends up. It says we have to take democratic control back. And you know what, guys? That means you, you who are listening, not people like me who have this privileged place in Parliament. So I say bring it on. But you have been warning about the dangers that are now in the papers every single day for well over a decade. I have. I walked into my kitchen twenty twelve was the moment when A smartphone became the price point that an adult might give one to a child. I walked into my kitchen And there were four fifteen year old girls Not talking And I just thought, why aren't they talking I mean, I've never seen four fifteen year old girls not talking. And then I realized they were looking at the phone. And I thought Oh, I wonder what it's going be like to grow up here in my kitchen here and there And then I went Where is that That idea, that idea that there was another there at the end of the phone that I didn't know. That changed my life And that interview could change yours actually. It's that good. Absolutely fascinating. Beab and Kidrren on full disclosure this week. That is it for me from me for today. and indeed for the next two weeks, I will be back, I promise being well, but if you're going to miss me, then obviously the gllobal playlayer contains all of our shows going back a fair old distance, LBC app similarly and there's an archive of full disclosures and Mystery hours and the Daily show as well. You can listen to all of those and James O'Brien Dailyy, the best bits of this show every day. So do download that. It's free from your app store now. Ben Kentish is in for Tom Swalbrick at four o'clock today, but now It's time for Sheila Fergerton. Thank you very much, James. Have a lovely holiday. This has been a Gobal playayer original production