The Legacy of Brexit and Identity Politics

This is a Global Player original podcast Good morning. It's three minutes after ten and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Would you like a little Oh, I'm terribly sorry. I think we're going to have to interrupt this programe because Nigel Farrag is due to make an emergency address about the conviction of the ex DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson on eighteen child sexual offense Oh no, I'm terribly sorry He iss white So we won't be getting that emergency address after all. J just a little bit of a snaiffoo there in the communications here at LBC Towers. I don't imagine he will mention it at all, but for people who care about such things, a former leader of the Democratic Unionist partarty, who of course propped up to There Rsa May's government and subsequently went into a sort of form of pact with whatever Farag's party was called at the time showed no visible emotion yesterday after a jury at Nory Crown Court convicted him of rape, indecent assault. and growth indeency against two victims between nineteen eighty five and two thousand eight and I mean, One never wants to see riots or civil disobedience on our streets ever. actually, not in the current political climate, I suppose that if the fascists were in charge, then many people would feel they had little choice but to take up their cudgels. But but to riot over crimes that had absolutely nothing to do with the people that you're trying to hurt and to say nothing or have nothing. contribute to a conversation about one of the most senior politicians in the North of Ireland being a pedophile rapist just seems a little strange and illustrative, perhaps of a deeper Darker truth. But anyway, as I said, no emergency address from Nigel Farge directly going against the wishes of any of the victims' families because on this occasion The rapist, the paedophile rapist, no less, is a very right wing elderly white men U. to Tar outrage, perhaps F minutes after ten is the time My u Can I tell you a secret? Are you interested in a little glimpse of what goes on in the murky depths of my mind? I'd like to do a phone in towards the end of the show today that is linked to the heat. But and I've just got this fond memory of once having a brilliant phone in about what the worst job is to do when things are getting this hot. Do you remember that Keith? We did, didn't we? We did But it only happened once. It was like lightning striking once. And I think the winner was a bloke in a bell suit. Is that what they're called? L not a wets suuit, but a sort of diving suit, but the big ones And he was welding something underwater. I don't I mean, my memory is not what it was. He was welding because the obvious answer, I think, is insulating roofs If you're in an attic today, putting down insulation Do you know that there are laws governing the temperatures at which cattle can be transported by roads But there are no laws governing the temperature in the classroom that your children may be compelled to attend today many many schoolchools of course are closing, but I just anyway, I'm just giving you a heads up on that because I really want to have a crack at it. towards the end of the programe, somethingomet linked to the heat But I've got a feeling it only really worked once that top. Well maybe it wasn't hot enough. all the other times we did it Maybe it needs to be really, really hot for you to for me to get you to focus your mind on the on the question of how hot it is I'm going to pepper today's program because it is a wonderful day, Keith, do we have any rousing music? Perhaps the ode to Joy. That seems to be topical at the moment. Do Do you know the bloke that was playing the Ode to Joy yesterday, Steve Bray blamed it on me. listen, I try not to be too self referential. I don't often succeed, but I do try I get blamed for everything in this count. I get blamed for Brexit being bad I get blamed for the music playing out in Downing Street yesterday, Well Kirst Start he literally blamed it on me by name. Eleanor couldn't wait to tell me when I got into work this morning, or bright eyed and bushy tailed, getting ready to sit down with Michelle Barnier, former French Prime Minister and Brexit negotiator for a quick chat. I invited him to my Brexit party. He's the only one that turned up And that was because he didn't understand the invitation. I don't know where all the parties are. I thought we would be having street parties today. I thought the Breakfast show would be sort of broadcasting live from Sunderland or something like that. Where's all the celebrations for Brexit now that we can all agree that it's all going so brilliantly Absolutely nothing. Damp Squibs Gore. Um So I'm going to pepper today's programe with some of the best calls I took in the years immediately after Brexit Because someone's got to celebrate, right someone's got to have a party Where's Jaimie Vardy when you need him? And I've only got five on my list Eleanor iss not very pleased with me for suggesting that we may not have the best ones on our list. They may be the best ones. I can't remember what was going on in twenty sixteen anymore than you can But if you've got any special requests for the classic call to this program, from some furiously hard of thinking Brexit supporter, because the poor souls don't ring me anymore. I miss you guys I miss you guys, we should get the band back together Seriously, ring me up, tellell me about all those laws that you can't wait not to have to obey anymore. could tell me about all the exciting improvements to your life.ust give me a Why don't you ring any? you never write, you never phone A Sash. Anyway, if you've got a particular favorite that you'd like to nominate, Then you can do so by texting eight four eight five zero or what'sapping zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. It would help if you could give us a date, but that's probably quite a big ask We should be able to find it, shouldn't we? just with a few details like the thing that you remember most about it Oh three, four, five, six ding on That's the whatsApp anyway. That's the whatsApp Um, few people claiming they can beat the loft insulation guys if we were to turn our attention later to the program to the question of who's got the worst job today I'm not doing that thing where I am reluctant to talk about what I've decided we have to talk about in the first hour of the program, so I go round the houses before I actually get there. The weirdest thing or one of the weirdest things about this job was is always will be. The fact that I get excited about the news Even when it's news that in my unprofessional life, in my civilian life, in my family life I find very dispiriting Even on days like this ten years ago, when the referendum result was in or imminent I couldn't wait to get to work to talk to you. If somebody obviously terrible becomes Prime Minister like Boris Johnson, I can't wait to get to work. I know this is crushingly disappointing For anybody who sort of messages me on mornings like that to say, H I'm drinking your salty tears. and yes, you know, I'll be very sad off there Of course, we' but on air, there are no better days than days when the news is big And the news is juicy. And that is what we do together, I think in some ways ose are the most memorable times that we spend together. And this is one of those times. I just I'm not entirely sure that it feels like it at the moment I'm not entirely sure that it feels like a momentous moment in UK political history. And yet it is Someone told me a story yesterday I can't tell you where I was yesterday because you wouldn't believe me. But somebody told me a story yesterday about and I've forgotten it unfortunately Um It was about the number of prime mininisters we had before the invention of the smartphone versus the number of prime ministers we have had after the invention of the smartphone. The problem is, I can't remember what the starting line was. Do you see what I mean? I can't remember where you count from But you can't and there is an extraordinary gulf between the number of years prior to us having smart phones and the number of prime ministers we had in that period and the number of prime ministers that we had after the invention of the smartphone. and it did sort of occur to me Perhaps we are becoming Ta with The flux We have And I have to be careful how I say this. I certainly have to make sure I've got my teeth in We are all perhaps suffering from Flux. fatigue My first band was no stop fllux fatigue, i. e, what feels Extraordinary when it happens very rarely does not feel extraordinary when it happens very often. I mean, there's an ineluctable logic to that, isn't there? There's utter inevitability to that, even if it's like a volcano erupting If it erupts every other Tuesday, it's going to be a lot less momentous than if it erupts once every hundred years. So we established yesterday that What's his job? Ted Heath was the last prime minister to both enter and leave Downing Street As a consequence of a general election That's mad because he entered Downy Street in nineteen seventy and left in nineteen seventy four. Every prime minister subsequently has either arrived as a consequence of an internal battle or a transition of power or left As a consequence of an internal battle or a transition of power, I don't even think we've got any deaths on that list, have we of Prime mininisters that passed away en off. it's not since nineteen seventy, obviously. So they have either resigned as Kir Starmer did yester yesterday Oh they have always resigned or or they entered as a consequence of their predecessor's resignation. So you might have thought John Major was on that list, but he's not because John Major enteredliament entered Downing Street as a consequence of Margaret Thatcher's resignation. He then went on to both win and lose a general election, but that's not the measure. that's not the metric. The metric is Ver simply that he both entered or she both entered and left Downing Street as a consequence of a general election putut me off my stride a bit yesterday when we worked that out Because it sort of made me think, well, perhaps things aren't that extraordinary, but of course they are becausecause of that other little Nugget that I shared with you, the idea that if you were born on the right day in nineteen seventy nine, you could reach your eleventh birthday having only known one prime mininister Whereas if you were born on the right day in two thousand six, you could reach your eleventh birthday, having known sevenh. B the time Burnham takes out. or whoever because that's actually the first phone in we're going to have, although you'd be You'd have done very well to have worked that out for yourself so far. It's not as if it's quar past ten already or anything, and I haven't even told you what the phone in is. That would be absolutely remiss and profoundly unprofessional And that's the point is that yes, okay, the door may revolve, but it revolves incredibly slowly Prime mininisters may be replaced at the whim of their own party as opposed to the electorate, but it happens prior to twenty sixteen, certainly prior to twenty nineteen, it happens quite rarely. It is a moment. It is, if you like, a man bite dog moment of politics And I just wonder whether It is becoming a little bit Dg Man. That's not the phone. Well, I don't think that's phone. It's just not Extraordinary anymore It's not remarkable. I watch political journalists almost craving it Responding to it almost like a fix to which they have become addicted during the Brexit years, which I suppose technically we're still in. although the kind of people that used to use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome, thinking that it was funny and clever are probably still insisting that we shouldn't be talking about Brexit anymore, even though it's the most significant reason, I think for almost all of our ills and the ones that it didn't cause, it's certainly made worse As any fool know? But you have to reflect upon the amount of time that passed between prrime Ministers not upon the fact that being removed is Almost always, or more often than not, is a consequence of resignation rather than electoral defeat. It's the speed with which the door revolves now It's the speed with which the door revolves that I find Um Dpiriting and with which I think I may have become fatigued. I don't think it's Andy Burnham's fault that I'm not feeling that fris on of engagement that I would expect to feel on a morning like this, coming on air the day after a prrime mininisterial resignation, having a look running the rule over what is likely to happen next That's really exciting usually It's really exciting usually. Is it because we're all a bit hot? Is it because the football's on Is it because we were kind of expecting last week on people who actually bother putting together programmes ahead of schchedule, which to be honest, isn't our greatest strength on this programme but we did today, we' got some calls ready. We thought we'd be talking about Brexit. I sat down for a quQassle with Michelle Barnier earlier and had a fle. What a dignified man he is I wonder what our equivalent would be hard to think really. Is it just me? or do you have a touch of flux fatigue as well Anyway, the question is this I tried to ask you this yesterday, but I don't really think you were in the mood The Simple question, really of whether or not or what you want The idea of Burnham being installed without challenge there's not going to be a general election. Fair play, everybody can call for one day. Everybody else called for one when Johnson was handing over to Truss and when Truss was handing over to Sunak. It's what you do. and the other lot resesign you call for a general election, but no one ever calls one. No one ever really expects one. No one did it. Gordon Brown didn't it and he probably should have done L justust didn't do it, and she almost certainly wouldn't have done even if she'd lasted more than five minutes So we hand over A succession, a peaceful passage of power And this is a question of national interest. So I want you to take your scarf off, all right? I don't think that if you're going to answer this question in the style of a Badenoch or a Fageer, I don't think it's very interesting to anybody. becausecause of course you were not clamoring for general elections when it was your lot that were just essentially handing over the car keys to somebody else, or whether there'd been a leadership battle or not And we mentioned it May gave the keys to Johnson, who didn't call an election, Johnson gave the keys to Truss, who didn't call an election, Truss gave the keys to Sunak, who didn't call an election. and Starmer is giving the keys to either Burnham or somebody else without calling an election. So you see what I mean about football ocasion. If you take your scarf off, you can see that all very, very clearly and you can state it There willll be tweets galore from labour figures demanding that there's a general election when Truss took over from Johnson or when Sunak took over from Truss. But they all know it's not going to happen. And to be honest, I think it's probably poor journalism to pretend that you don't understand that. Everybody I'm not going to patronise you or condeststand pretending that I don't understand that or indeed that you're too stupid to understand it yourself. I will leave the belief that you're stupid to people like Mr Mr. Farage do you want And this is a really important question. This is where my flux fatigue be baiting because you will say something thoughtful and intelligent to me and it will get my little grrey cells whirring and I will start thinking about it in a way that reminds me why I find these moments exciting Do you see what I mean? So in a way, after all the years that I've come to your rescue at ten o'clock in the morning and managed to invest you and inject you with a frison of excitement at the current affairs schchmorgers board being laid out before us Today, I'm asking you in a way to do it for me to make this question really, really interesting Because it is important and what is important should be interesting. And when the important is not interesting It's the fault of the observer. It's my fault that I'm not more excited by this question And I want you to both be excited by it and I want you Please don't clip this up inappropriately. I want you to excite me Um, It feels wrong Something about it feels at this point in proceedings a bit wrong The idea that Andy Burnham becomes Prime Minister unchallenged Despite not even having been in Parliament until past two yesterday. something about that feels a bit rum to me couldould be wrong I am being honest. and As I read about the possibility of some senior figures throwing their hat into the ring I find myself and forgive me for this because I'm not even joking I find myself fifty twocent, forty eight percent thinking I wish they would. I hope they do I would like to see some sort of contest because I would like to see the stalls set out And even if Bernam were to romp home I would then have a little bit more knowledge of some of the other players in his party, some of the other runners and wriders about whom I don't currently know an awful lot, like for example, Darren Jones who I understand has not ruled out a challenge, like for example, Al Karnes, who is It is reported this morning weighing up weether to run. I wouldn't mind seeing Angela Rayna have a crack, but I think that's probably unlikely. as you know, I'm a big admirer of Dan Jarvis. so zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is the number you need to tell me. And remember, there's an argument for saying, no, God, no, no, no, no. let's have a coronation. The last thing we need is to air our dirty laundry in public or to invite into nissine warfare So what is your Reason for Wanting or not wanting a coronation coronation or contest zero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. And because my introduction has been a little bit round the houses I can state with some confidence that if you hit the numbers now you will get through ten twenty four is the time. Peter Murrell, the estranged husband of Nicolas Stargeon jailed this morning for five years and three months for embezzlement. The cabinet In Westminster meeting for the first time since the Prime Minister quit, Andy Burnham clearly poised to run for leader in the coming days, but will anybody run against him? And what do you want and why Do you want a coronation or do you want a contest? And I think that there are compelling Reasons for wanting both, and I also think that my own opinion is probably yours for the taking If you can persuade me of your position by eleven o'clock today, But at the moment I'm fifty two forty eight in favor of a contest. I find myself thinking, I don't know, just just a sort of sense of discombobulation at the idea of an untrammlled passage fromr the Meralty of Manchester to the Prime Ministership of the United Kingdom without really troubling Parliamentary scorers. I know he won in Makeerfield, but he won in Makeerfield last week The general election was two years ago and he wasn't even in it. I don't know. I don't know. As I say, fifty two, forty eight. I don't know why that numberers with my mind today, but we will be celebrating Brexit promise because no one else is. I don't understand. why why aren't they all having parties Why isn't Nige getting the party poppers out? It's just bizarre. I thought they'd be doing laps of honour around Westminster, reminding us all of the benefits that they've accrued and all the things they promised us that they have now delivered. So it falls to me to run the party,, can we get some sound effects maybe some party poppers Aura. J some sort of rousing music, maybe some Morris dancing type music that would be appropriate But not yet because Josephine's in Westminster to kick off this conversation. Josephine, what would you like to say Hi James. So in any other situation, I would agree that we need to have a long debate about the ideas, but I think the situation is so grave with the right really trying to bring down this labour government. But I think we need an immediate coronation. We need to get Andy in there ideally as soon as next week and just hit the ground running and essentially make up for the mistakes that Kir Salma made and just again go for it. Leave usisten to Absolutely just be bold and make the changes that are needed in order to basically save this labour government and the country from a reformed government. the future. Yeah. so he just I mean it just have to get on with it. I don't think there's time to mess about. Do you not want him to convince you that he can perhaps you're already convinced, of course. I Well I'd need proof from kind of, you know, I've heard him speak and I think he's great. I think he's got what it takes And I think W streeting has what it takes. And the fact that Wes has also fallen in line behind him, I think speaks very highly of him. And he also seems to have very credible economic advisers around him. So I think he's got the right people around him And I I guess I'm kind of relying on them also to steer him in the right direction. And I just don't think there's time any time for messing about I think the right will exploit any weakness, any time that's taken like that No that's a really strong argument, a proper sense of urgency be done. and he just has to get in and get on with it. I mean this is the perfect antidote to flux fatigue, isn't it? in that you are communicating a genuine sense of urgency and I worry sometimes that those of us who pontificate professionally can get a little bit a little bit lazy in our thinking and sort of forget that we're talking about the fate of a country as opposed to a news story, as opposed to a topic for a phone in show. Yes, you clearly do. So passionately that this country has a chance and that we really can make a difference and make a change to people's lives. And I feel like Andy knows he feels he has young children as well. And I think he also has that visceral sense of urgency and need to make a change and whether that's electoral reform, I think he's been discussing that. But we really need bold changes, move much closer to Europe, eventually rejoin Europe. We know what has to be done And we really need to start just absolutely getting on with it and thinking about the future in terms of AI, how our economy deals with that, whether how we navigate this path between the US and China. There are so many issues that we need to tackle. And we're just wasting time yet again with kind of pointless political debate because the priorities are clear and what they want is urgent. I like you. Well, I mean, yeah, there goes my pendulum. I don't know how long it'll stay swinging in that direction. But one little problem would and it doesn't matter that he hasn't provided a long list of what he's going to do differently from Stalmer because Starmer's great flaw His Homatia in many ways was was perception It was how he conducted himself and that's desperately unfair, but that's the world in which we live. I'm reminded, I think it was Harold Wilson. this might be apocryphal when television became a major player in politics, which is within living memory, incredibly, talking about smartphones a minute ago. So Harold Wilson would be delivering a a speech at the I don't know, the Worksop Working Men's Club or something like that. and the cameras would be there and everything I think, was live in those days. And the camera and he'd break off in the middle of the speech to deliver a prepared paragraph for the news for the news. And when he did that, he'd clamp his pipe in his mouth. I remember reading when I was studying for my A level because that was the image that he saw project to the viewers And that's optics, that's spin. and unfortunately for Stara and it is horribly unfair. But it's also true. Andy Burnham could turn up with exactly the same agenda and just do a better job of selling it. And I think many people would be relieved, although like Josephine, I'd rather he did a little more than that H's Dominy Cadis with your headlin T thirty three is the time. Coronationational contest. I don't normally like violins that lend themselves to pithy little one liners, but comeeth the hour, Ceth the man And speaking of pithy littleittle Bondndliners, I can feel my flux fatigue ating as I knew this would happen. Maybe it's because I'm responding to the heat a little bit. All the thunder I don't know how you slept last night, but the thunder was incredible. ourur little dog Oh dear. I mean, our little doggers in pieces Have you ever had a small dog shake with fear? And I mean, it it's sppasmodic the right word. I know we use spasmodic to describe the passage of time, but the spas it was like they were like spasms, the poor little thing. was having, unfortunately, place that the little dog decided was safest in the house during the thunderstorm last night was on my head literally on my head. So imagine my head on a pillow If you dare And then imagine the dog sitting on the bit of the pillow that was not covered by my head, but above my head, even though I was lying down. You see what I mean? So that's where the dog settled last night, never done it before. Hopefully we'll never do it again A mark perhaps of how serious that thunderstorm was, so maybe my flux fatigue was down to just genuine fatigue Because I spent most of last night with a dog on my head There's something else I'd rather you didn't clip. Out of context. ten thirty four is the time. Sue is in Glossop. Su, what would you like to say Good morning, Hello My theory is, and I do understand why people feel like there should be a bit more of a process. inevitable entry as Prime Minister. but I think it's Possibly a bit of a north south thing. I think if you ask people in the North what they felt about it, they would probably say just get him in because we know the man Okay, fairly well. Do you feel that Yeah, absolutely. I don't even live in Manchester. I'm just on the outskirts. Yes. No, I know Glossop. I used to live in Birchvale. Oh did you? Yeah many years ago. small world, isn't it? Tiny little place, Birchvle Tiny little place.vale is tiny. Glossop's quite big now. I that is you obviously not in terms of the south of course. Fairly big like it's a pretty big town they're building constantly. anyyway, off topic. So yeah, I suspect that you might get a different response in the nse to that question. becausecause we know we know what he's done for Manchester. He's been very, very good for Manchester. We know him' to be decent and honest and I mean, I'm not saying that Kirstana wasn't those things. I feel badly. No, but that ship has sailed And you know we can worry forever about what was fair and what was not fair. But the ship has sailed and we have to look we have to look at the waters ahead of us. I had a funny thought yesterday. I was talking about this on the Quiet Riot podcast, which I heartily recommend to people who enjoy this show. I think they'd enjoy that podcast. And I was chatting about unexpected, I was booked for it before we knew Starmer was going to resign on the Monday but I'm thinking about Change. So. And I think that I personally have changed enormously over the course of the last ten years As a consequence of all manner of things, most importantly, probably being a parent to teenagers and having quite a lot of therapy. And there' be a lot of people who have not had that personal exposure to Andy Burnham, as you point out a north south thing who probably want to believe that Andy Burnham has changed a lot since he lost leadership elections to both Ed Milliband and shortly afterwards Jeremy Corbin But he's done a sterling job in Manchester. he really, really has. And What do you think he's learned? Anan I don't know. I don't know what he's learned. I don't know. I don't know. I just think He's shown himself to be in a very public office, to be a very decent, honest, hard working human being We know him to be that because we see him doing it all the time. What was going on in his political life before all of that, I can't really comment on because he was never on my radar. I know him as mayor of Greater Manchester. and I know that he's done a good job. Also, he did amazing work for the Hillsborough families. You know, Yes that's true. is done't good work in his time in public office. I know that was when he was an MP, it wasn't when he was mayor, but he's done incredible things and I think that you good human being and I think because we're familiar with him, U And we know him and we know what he's like. My husband has met him several times in the course of his work, notot that he does anything spectacular, but And he says he's a decent decent blok. And he engenders confidence in people in a way that I mean twenty twenty hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it's hard to imagine anybody Being a really passionate member of the Kirirstara fan Club or the Kirirstar. I know some people have become that way subsequently because they respond emotionally to an underdog getting a kicking, and that's a nice response. It's a human. it's an empathetic response But it would be hard to sort of It around a make poole. Yeah K family were. We were saying he's like the John Major Although John Major won, he did win in that election against Neil Kinnet and I wonder whether we will look back and think we probably should have let Kir Star have a go at winning another one. Yeah I think you might be ono something. although Josephine in Westminster opened the batting this morning You can't get much more southern than that. I don't mean geographically, I mean politically, Westminster and Glossuop both making strong cases for Andy Bernon being installed U Ce. What's the Latin word for battle? Sinee bellum. Is that right money my parents spent on my education. Keith says that's right K He's got the Latin. U Garant is in Chester. Garainant, what would you like to say? Garant Yeah Hi James. Hello. G right. Yeah. I mean, I'm from the Northwest as well. so it's where I live. so and you know, he's not mking of the north. so it's As far I'm the complete opposite, I think there should be a leadership contcess because you Well. We need to Well, first of all, he's already lost two. So I think just handing on a plate the prrime Ministerhip of a country to a twice guy that's lost is a bit wrong anyway. but you need to know what he stands for, you need to get the best out from the individual contenders to see why you feel that they would be best for running the country. And to use another example, you only have to look at America what happened over there. Biden stayed in too long. They finally got rid of him, and then they just did a coronation and it ended in a disaster with Donald Trump in power. You doesn't I mean, everybody would agree that the mistake that they made was not doing it soon enough Exactly. So now they're doing it now they're doing it really quickly No they don't have to do it really quickly. They just need to have a leadership contest to see if he can if he is the best man in the party that's curing Who would you un to see you do? That's a good question. I mean, you mentioned Danjarvis Al Khes. I mean, I honestly think W' streeting Well you know that's not going to happen because has already said so. So I mean, who would you like to see in it I don't think he's not made any signs of wanting to run so far. And it has to be I mean I understand the point that you're making. I think it's pretty weak, but I do understand it It would need to be to work your point. It would need a substantive candidate, wouldn't it? It would need someone who would deliver all of the things that you want And those things would be meaningful differences with Andy Burnham and At least comparable levels of popularity in both the Parliamentary partarty and beyond. and of course that extraordinary result in Makerfield, notot the win but the scale of the win which took absolutely everybody took abolutely everybody by surprise. Let me come back on that first of Well, those were specific set of circumstances. I mean, it's like you' saying that the Tories winning Aberdeen is suddenly going to propel them back into power. No it's nothing like that at all. unless six hundred fifty constituencies suddenly start drilling for oil tomorrow. So that's again, respectfully, that's a ridiculous comparison I don't think so rememind me the name of the Tictory candidate in Aberdeeen I couldn't get you No Well that's one reason why it's a ridiculous comparison, isn't it? Because Andy Burnham is poised to become Prime Minister. So comparing that by election to the one in Aberdeen when you can't even remember the name of the candidate is obviously silly All right, then. well in terms of other things, A, I mean he was up against a reform candidate who, let's be honest begging to lose from all the sexist comments he was making, like there's no, you know. And all the other parties were pretty much non existent. It was almost, I wouldn't say it was tactical voting, but it was close enough I mean, I just I mean personally, it's more the sense of entitlement like this is he should have this. h I just don't like that. I do think I personally just think there should be a contest. Now maybe I'm not giving the most cogent argument why there should be. That's right. We like vibes. I mean it's always fun to establish whether they are vibes or whether they are cogent arguments. But you know, I was forty eight Before this phoning started, two people have rung in saying we should have a coronation and I moved up to about sixty, someomeone was rung in to say we shouldn't. and u And I've moved up to seventy five. So well done on that front, at least Garant. It's ten forty three. Anthony's in Dartford, Anthony. what would you like to say Hello buddy Yeah, thanks for taking my call. Yeah, I think Andy Burnham putut him in straightaway. if there's a leadership contest If Labour want a leadership contest, they can have a leadership contest. I think Labour has spoken. I think the people in Manchester The London and the North has spoken. I think I think the nation needs to see something Just get on with it is kind of what I'm hearing. Exactly. just we've had five what? we had five prime mininisters, didn't we under the and six Five under the Tories. sorry, yeah. Five under the Tories. Yeahah. five under the Tories Okay. and nontp Lership at the I did try and go through it in before I I have to. you Which one do you forget? Which one do you forget? You know what It's really tast, isn't it? Yeah. I think I forget Maay sometimes. I forget iss A Me sometimes. no, but don't worry. She was running through the wheat field. Don't forget that? That of course her bedrooms b. And you don't have any worries about not seeing the stores being set out or not I mean, if you don't know roughly what Andy Burham stands for at this point in proceedings it's your own fa Yeah, I think so. and I mean, I mean I live downstouth. My cousin lives up north, you know, so And he lives in Manchester Ethingingss Matt Andy Burnh has been great in terms of like has Andy Berham got the parliamentary experience of being in the Houses of Parliament? No. but I mean its kind of has really? just it was a wy Yeah Well he was the advisor to Jeremy Corbyn, so he has, which means a lot of the Labour Party have got a lot of knowledge about Andy Okay. alsoso U beinging a may a mayor of especially like the size of Manchester. You know you get all your budget set down to you by Central London and by Parliament. He's well aware of what he can do with what. He's well aware of parliamentary procedure You know, this isn't I think he's got a lovely smile, I think he think I think on a t shirt. Just you know Yeah. I do know listen, I couldn't believe James. I couldn't believe what came out of my mouth off there about three months ago and Eleanor reminded me of it and I said it on there. I think having a Northern accent matters I just think it does at this stage in our politics and I think actually it should I think the North has felt abandoned by Westminster for long enough and Andy Bernam brings that absolutely into focus and if he's got a nice smile as well then um You know, the job is as they say are good and thank you, Anthony. So there we go. I mean, listen, feel free to have a crack at justifying or arguing for a contest. But there are questions, aren't there that have to be answered if you're going to do that. Who would be the candidates And why would you want them to have because I suppose it's not the fault of people in favor of a contest. You probably can't tell me a great deal about cs other than the fact that he was In the Royal Marines, I think, I get a little bit confused. One of them was a paratrooper and one of them was in the Royal Marines. I think our cars might have been in both actually. But it was certainly in the special boat service, wasn't Anyway, military service, shall we say. But other than that, I don't know how much you can tell me about that Aaron Jones either, except he's a very, very good media performer And that matters as well You know, if you find yourself in a studio and somebody wants to know how many rice Krispies there are in a box of rice Krispies, you have to treat them with the just the right mix of contempt and amusement that people wasting their opportunity with a senior politician in such a way deserve. And Darren Jones has been very good at that But it's not time I get this sense of the specifics of the circumstances And and that idea of, come on, this is serious. G on with it. probably winning at the moment But feel free to turn that tide after this It is ten forty nine. you are listening to Jose O'Brien on LBC where the question of whether or not you want a contest or a coronation is close to consensus in that there isn't a particular appetite Garreant and Chester notwithstanding. and also the same pretty much on my inbox. There's quite a lot of sort of continuity starmour and I feel that. I fully get how bruised you feel about the way that Kirstamma has been treated but it doesn't constitute an answer to the question of whether or not you want to see Andy Burnham enter Downing Street unchallenged. by other members of his party. The two names that are in the frame currently are Darren Jones and Al Carnes Neither of whom strike me as a David Cameron figure If you were to go back fourourteen years, was it or something or thereabouts? No longer than that. neearly twenty years perhaps when David Davis was poised to become consonservative leader. He had been sort of anointed by the right wing press, although Michael Howard, who was the incumbent who had announced a relatively long period of transition so that the party could get ready to fight the next election, which it did so successfully of course Michael Howard was very much preparing Cameron and Osborne to take over from him with people like Gove part of the project and Daniel, now Lord Finkelstein very much in the room where it happened, but it was just a conference. It was a party conference where Cameron delivered a decent speech and David Davis was less impressive and the pendulum swung. the momentum shifted from the favorite to the outsider, the relative unknown and the relative unknown came forward and took the prize. But being in opposition two or three years out from a general election is very, very different to being in power two years out from the last general election and two or three years out from the next one. I do find this argument for urgency. right. G on with it. strap strap in and get on with it. And then the only reservation I have is, um is that he's performance last time he was in Westminster was was not inccredible or exciting or certainly exceptional peopleople change and a different skill set is required and there isn't any other choice there. That if Dan Jarvis said, ye, I'll have a go. personally My ears would prick up, but I mean that's just me. I don't know how many other people would even recognize the name. ten fifty two is the time Moe is in Birming, Moe, what do you reckon Hello, Tabes, thanks for taking my call. very well. I think it's really important for the Labor partarty to actually have a formal contest and one that is competitive in ideas and in debate I think look, Andy Burnham, if he is going to be aPM, needs to make a lot of important and potentially controversial policy decisions over the next few years And we don't want a situation where his would be opponents who have been cowed into silence after a non contest this time round start to silently brief to say, you know what? he was foisted upon us. We put our false smiles out and our false platitudes out. but we actually disagree with the man. We don't like this policy. and we get to the situation come twenty twenty eight where you know what T points behind Nigel Farge in the polls and the Labour party is in a mad panic I don't do you really I mean, surely, if Berham was doing really badly, then the briefing would happen anyway, whether he'd won a leadership election or not. I think the would be opponent needs to hear the word I've lost in a leadership contest either from the bank that it doesn't have enough parliamentary support or the members reject them and so on. That's a very powerful mandate. And the fact that you know you've lost because You know, politicians are politicians. You know, we see with Kemi Badmark every week. She's the greatest politician ever who never makes a mistake Okay As a politician, defeat is only certain. That's interesting Okay published. Then I mean, the most obvious contender would be Wes Streeting and he's announced he's not going to do it So who would fit the bill you describe? Who are the people that would need to hear in their own internal dialogue? They would need to hear the words I lost. Well, where my argument slightly f his. I can't bless your honesty. becausecause he's the only one who you could look at ably Yeah, exactly on a different wing of the party. I didn't think he'd sit it out. I'd made an un An informal prediction yesterday, not one of my formal predictions because they're the ones that always come true, but an informal prediction that West Streeting would not sit this out. And then within ten minutes he put out a statement saying that he would be sitting this one out. He would be offering his support to Andy Burnham. And that changed everything for me Yeah, my opinion on that is that I don't think you have the eighty one names Okay Okay. I think he probably my own person that's that's my own personal opinion And I think's look, he's an intelligent guy. He knows that he doesn't want to go into a leadership contest. Let's say even he gets the eighty one names. He doesn't want to go up on that day in September or wh wheneverver else when they announce the results And he finds out he gets fivecent or ten percent of the membership and the trade union vote. Yeah, I mean yeah as you concede, it's not watertight this argument because of the personnel involved, but it's certainly thought provoking Do you want to produce the next bit of the programe No no that's m. I think there's one other thingin here. I think hang on, that's a genuine question. I just shall I take another call or shall I play out one of the Brexit greats, one of the great top top calls from the Brexit ister because it's the celebration today. no one else is celebrating. so we're having to do it ourselves. Unless I've missed it, I think it's good to have one of those nostalgic moments. Okay, well there you go. Mo's in charge is Robert in Rochester on the seventeenth of december twenty eighteen. and this at the moment is the one that you've I think more people have voted for this than any other and it was already on our list. so maybe I'm going to oe Eleanor an apology B by one o'clock today I actually think in order to negotiate U they u Who's that shouting in the background It's my mum. O. Do apologise. That's all right. It kind of goes with the territory for people who call themselves Brexiters, doesn't it? Yes. So basically in order to negotiate with those people who want second referendum, don't we make it more democratic by introducing a PR election at the same time Right. Yes. So we change our entire electoral system by the end of March Well, you know it's not going to happen, but you know, what do you think you won Robert What I would like is No, what do you think you want What I want is a basically our whole governance or the way that the wealth controls our country. No you think what do you think you want? Well, I'm just about to explain that. I want not want one W O N. What do you think you want one A slap in the government's face to show then that they that government's gone. So what did you win Well, that government is a reform of the continuous politicians that are put forward in instead of actually giving people Let's have oneute. take a little pause and tell me what you think you won But I buton. Yeah. I won to vote to leave the EU. No I know that b, but what did you win? What was the prize to actually undress our politicians if that's a better way to actually put it because it's even worse incredibly. you almost deserve credit for that. So what you won to undress our politicians. And who's going to be in charge of Brexit? Well, the way that they're dealing with Brexit is not something I agree with because quite frankly, I would be we're but now we're back to silly rhetoric, aren't we and ludicrous claims In terms of measurable, tangible benefits, what did you win? What did I win? I won deregulated country. What does that mean? Anderegulate? Well it means that we can strip away from the EU laws that we don't like. For example. Well, for me, one of the ones is the plug system I know it's not very hugely, but we obviously use free plin plugs in this country. TheU don't And so basically it means that our safety aspects are a lot stronger than the generalization of the EU. But we're in the EU rather than going pardon. We're in the EU. So you think we have to leave the EU to get three pin plugs No, it's about going back to some of the things where we are stronger at. Yeah G on. talkalk me through the plugs.. So what can we do now with plugs that we can't do as members As well, we can still do it, but the manufacturers So what did you win R Complancecy to British law. Complancecy to British law Yes,. So when you bring something into this country, it has to comply to the UK. That's what happens already. That's why we've got three pin plugs, you see, and they have because the rather than metal the EU sets the base level above which we are all free to go as the fact that we have gone proves Mate, just p note, pause for a minute and think about what you've just done You've come live on national radio, you've described yourself as a Brexiteer. you're getting told off by your mum in the background. And when I've asked you what you think you've won, you've said the right to have three pin plugs that we already have It's also It's half past ten on Monday morning, mate. Okay, look, that was an old clip from two and a half years after the Brexit vote when Robert in Rochester was somehow, I don't even know anymore convinced that we would not have the three pin plugs that we did have if we hadn't voted to leave the European Union. And I took that call at half past ten on a Monday morning Specifically, the seventeenth of december twenty eighteen I didn't realise when I played you the clip that that would be the end of the call and I would announce that it was half past ten on a Monday morning. Of course, it was eleven o'clock on a Tuesday morning. So I hope that didn't cause any confusion. I can see from my inbox that some people thought that was happening in real time, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, those people don't ring me anymore U and it's very sad Actually, that's not true. They ring me all the time with brilliant arguments to prove that Brexit has gone superbly, but we vet our calls so assiduously. We've got extraordinary software here that we can tell immediately whether someone is much cleverer than me and they're going to knock me into a cocked hat with brilliant Brexit benefits and I'm so frightened of them that we never let those people on air U that is The Gspel according to social media, but of course you are free to believe whatever you want including, of course, the claim that Kir Starmer's house was burnt set on fire by male prostitutes whose bills he hadn't paid. I can't get past that and the evidence it provides of how utterly boiled This country has become five minutes after eleven is the time. Nigel Farrage in our newews bulletin. You know when he took that five minute, I can't believe no one else has pointed this out When he says I wasn't in politics at oough, I fully accept himliib. He literally owned Reform UK. I'm going to say that again because as is often the case with Farage, I find it extraordinary how little people know about stuff that is in the public domain. He literally owned Reform UK until February of twenty twenty five set it up in twenty eighteen as a private limited company. Farage holding the majority of shares. So he owned it when he took five million quid from Christopher Harbournen in secret He owned a political party. He owned a British political party. when he took a secret five million quid Thaie based billionaire set to benefit from policies that Farage announced shortly after taking five million quid from a Thai based billionaire. So Just send a postcard to your favourite interviewers and tell them that the next time he says, I wasn't in politics at the time, they have to come back and say Otherwise they not only sound ridiculous but betray all of their viewers and listeners. You have to come back and say, well, you did actually own the party. Mr. Farage You literally owned the party. You owned a majority of shares in a private limited company called Reform UK. So how can you possibly claim you weren't in frontline polics? You can't you'd say, wouldn't you normally? You can't get further into frontline politics than being the leader of a party and he wasn't the leader of a party. It turns out you can You can get further into politics than being the leader of a party. you can actually O it. You can own the party while secretly taking five million pounds from a Thai based crypto billionaire who subsequently would benefit from policies you announced after taking the five million pounds secretly from a crypto billionaire and pity the news readers who can't keep up Did What's the current story? that he got it for his security? I hate this. all right I actually hate that line that he spouts about being the most attacked politician in the country because I imagine Joe Cox's children listening to that or David Amos' daughter listening to that claim He's had a milkshake thrown at him They got murdered And he has the audacity to claim that he's the most attacked politician in the country. The man is a whining coward. It's extraordinary that he would well, it's not, is it? because this is the man that heard Henry Novak's grieving father Explain that his son's death had nothing to do with racism or race and plead with the proponents of public discourse not to pretend otherwise an up pop farriage to claim and lie Otherwise, claim that poor Henry's ethnicity had anything to do with his death or indeed his treatment by the police And so we shouldn't be surprised that he would I mean, in fact, when Joe Cox was assassinated by a white supremacist terrorist, Farge was out of the block so fast to start attacking the rememain movement that um You couldn't see him for dust That of course, was on the morning that he unveiled that poster, the breaking point poster with all the echoes of Nazi propaganda So listen, I mean, I can do this all day. The point is that when he comes out with one of his blowviations or some of his blood I wasn't a politician when I took that money, it was a personal gift. No it wasn't. It was a gift to the owner. political party in this country. the actual Oa of a political party in this country. So to call it a personal gift is notot only an act of epic dishonesty But it's also an act of craven siccop fancy. becausecause what you're doing is you're allowing a man to lie about something as significant as a five million pound gift from a billionaire who subsequently saw policies being announced that would make him even richer You're allowing him to lie that he wasn't in politics at the time when he literally owned the party that has taken in excess of twenty million pounds from the same bloke without any of us knowing until some journalists did some actual journalism that he'd also taken five million pounds secretly. secretly from Thai based billionaire. And he was the owner of the party. Do I need to write this down for people to point it out to him When he turns up for one of his traditional toe tickling exercises, he was the owner of the party Actually that's not fair. didn't get his toes tickled today. Sally Nugent on the BBC was particularly impressive on this question, which he is obviously desperate. to but you can't you cannot have a politician in this country with five million pounds in his pocket. from a foreign based billionaire set to benefit from policies that have already be announced. and God knows what else he's hoping for and expecting in return. becausecause when a liar tells you that there's no quid pro quo, when a liar tells you that the donor isn't expecting anything in return, when a liar tells you that he's the most attacked politician in British history or in recent British politics, when two British politicians are in their actual graves as a consequence of murder then It's up to you whether or not you believe the liar That's all, it's up to you, whether or not you believe that someone who's given over twenty million pounds to the party that he owned gave five million pounds secretly to the actual owner without expecting anything in return You are perfectly free to conclude. No, I'm sure that's entirely above board. And the bloke that gave over twenty million pounds to the party did not give five million pounds to the owner of that party in expectation of some sort of a reward or benefit owned the party I't even I had to double check that I thought surely other people would have pointed that out if it's true, but somewhere in the back of my head, I'm thinking, I'm sure Beginning last year, february twenty five, it was announced that he'd given up ownership of Reform UK, saying it wanted to give more control to its members said Well, if he only gave up ownership in twenty twenty five and he took the five million quid in twenty twenty four thenen he must have been the actual owner of the party when he took the five million quid and now claims that he wasn't involved in politics at the time How can you not be involved in politics while owning an actual party? Gee, Do you think anyone will put that to him Next time he Pops his head above the parap pet. I hope so was encouraged this morning. Some of the interviews conducted with him were pretty robust Do you think mean, how could you not point out to him that he owned the party? I'll tell you why because it doesn't get reported properly It doesn't get reported with anything like the attention to detail or the excitement that was reserved, for example, for Kir Stahmer's spectacle Five million pounds to the owner of a political party And they expect you to believe that there was absolutely no quid pro quo involved. That's all. While we're on the subject of things that you're expected to believe and indeed foreign based billionaires, there are two reasons. why you might want this man to be Prime Minister. One is that you're a foreign based billionaire. That's not fair. One is that you're a billionaire and the other is that you're a mug And I've got some fantastic news for you You can you can work out which one you are right now just by looking at your own bank account. Are you a billionaire or are you a mug Because if you want this character who took five million quids secretly from a foreign billionaire, while he owned a political party to have anything to do with the running of this country Then you are either a billionaire or a mug. And it's really easy to work out which, Especially with online banking, you can just click on your app Go to your current account or your savings account, go to your online banking. and have a look at whether or not you're a billionaire. because if you're not and you like this, dude, you're a mug Simples coming up to the quarter past eleven, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And of course part of his stick this morning was that nobody cares, or it doesn't matter that the owner of a political party took five million pounds secretly from a foreign based billionaire. I'm tempted to do a phone in on whether or not you care and why. Would you like to hear that today as we celebrate? great success of Brexit ten years to the day since that referendum result came in. Would you like to tell me whether or not you care about the owner of a political party, secretly accepting millions and millions of pounds fromr a foreign based billionaire and thinking that it was none of your business. while he owned a party to which the same billionaire has now given in excess of twenty million pounds Be it feels to me like it matters It feels to me like it matters But hey, what am I now? It is seventeen minutes after eleven and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Let's get back to this question of coronation or contest because it is really important and I can feel my what did I call it Keith fllux fatigue to say that very carefully. It's a bit like I' the Pheasant plucker I've got a touch of flux fatigue, except I can feel it dissipating the longer this conversation goes on. and I think that I am of the view Mo in Birmingham and Garrantinchester notwithstanding that actually we just want a new Pime Mister in place as soon as possible It is going to be Andy Burnham, regardless of whether there's a leadership contest or not. So what benefit would there be from a leadership contest o three four five, six zero six zer nine seven three. It's a slightly different phone now. We won't do it for the whole hour Um, I've got business to attend to. But it is now coming from a position where I'm about seventy five percent persuaded that a leadership contest would be close to a waste of time. but can always swing back again. You know that. Anna is in Wandsworth. Anna, what would you like to say This is a great pleasure. I've never succeeded in getting through to you before. the pressureures on now?ope There's no sense of antic cllimax when we move towards the end of this call. I think so No Well, just to say, by the way, the Brexit partarty was also Farid's company. so that's just an aside. Well, I've come right around in my way of thinking over the weekend. And this is really interesting, I think the says. goossh. I do. And this is the reason. Okay. And I'm not a flip flopper, okay? I do my research So I started off as a corbernight and then I turned to Kist Alma because I was pragmatic And I supported him. and I am a member of the Labour Party and campaign, et cetera In the weekend, I was furious on Friday, okay, I was very angry on Friday with the situation, and I didn't want Kissoa to resign But I sort of I took myself away and I basically sat down and I read a lot of information. A lot of articles, a lot of information has come my way and also from the groups that surround Addy Burnham Comass being the main one. U And I have come to the decision as your caller in the second the second caller today very an aist familyly lady. It's in Gossip too, I think in Gossip. That's right. I've come to believe that is the way forward. and the reason for that is We are in that cliche. We are in unprecedented times because the globe is being swamped by this far right insurgency. And We know full well that Farage wants to introduce Pject twenty twenty five into this country if he gets to be installed in the hot seat U We know that he is linked at least with Russia intention was to get Kf Tama out and no doubt will be to get And you Burn them out So we have the battle of our lives on our hands right now, and I think Alie Burnham House of plan Do Be I'm. Well, that's good to know, you've done the homework. I mean, to be fair, traditionally, it should be the host that's done the homework and the caller that hasn't. As Robert in Rochester demonstrated rather brilliantly just before the eleven o'clock news in a blast from the Brexit past. But that's really reassuring in that you put flesh upon the burn and bones by reading up on who he is and what he's done publication called mainstream or rather a group called mainstream, have a look at what they've done and also encompass I was a member of compass before I joined Labour, so I do know what compomass are about. and a lot of things like assemblies and and he's fully signed up for that. I suppose one danger is that he did seem quite wobbly when he was last in Westminster. He did this is what I think is most important post Starmer is that the first few big Announcements, the first few big interventions have to be absolutely solid. They cannot risk and any form of reversal or U turn in I mean, and that means they just have to get everything absolutely right and stress tested before they announce it. And even if it's unpopular initially, they have to back it. They have to defend it to to the hill And that's my worry is that Starmer Burnham hasn't demonstrated in the past that that is that he is possessed of that sort of steeiness. It I think it's matured Yeah But also I think he's got a good team behind him. He's got a good support system behind him. He has got a plan. I think that's the main thing. That's what I was worried about on Friday. Yeah fair enough. Whether he had a plan. because I know Kisamma did have a plan, but it wass going too slowly and people weren't seeing results. And he wasn't selling it well enough, even if it had been, you know, even if if Burnham doesn't go faster, he needs to sell every milestone on that journey a lot more effectively than Starmmer has done. And again, I can be optimistic about that, but not notot and perhaps not fatalistic. I have the u kindind of ye yeah the memories of what he was like last time he was in Westminster and and don't see what you see, but you've done more work on it than I have. So your opinion counts for more than mine does didid that Call live up to your expectations, Anna I'm surprised as well. Yes, it did. No it did brilliantly. Iope it' not hope it's not your last, albeit that it is your first eleven twenty three is the time.ot more clips to play. Have we got any votes coming in? The one that gets the most votes the one that I'm not in But it was by far the best Brexit call ever to this radio station. It just was. I can say that even though the Brexit calls to this radio station in many ways changed every aspect of my professional life. U twenty three after eleven is the time. Lucian is in Amsterdam. Lucian, what would you like to say? Yeah, hello, James Thanks to takeakeaking a call Well, yes, a great friend if you show. and should I offer my condolences to Britain regarding the Brexit vote? Excuse me, we're celebrating. It's our tenth anniversary today. We're having Keith Mcgonney sound effects yet St waiting My most sincere congratulations Thank. But you wish you weren't in that pesky old European Union, Lucian Yes, indeed. Well we're not the nation to to impose economic sanctions on itself. Yeah fool you. I bet you've still got those two pin plugs, haven't you? Carry on, Lucy. What made you pick up the phone today U funny well, ironic analogy Y concerning the An Burnham case. Coronation or contest and you say I I've heard you saying coronation is or a contest is an actual waste of time That's what we of the Dutch Labour Party thought in twenty ten when suddenly while the The very celebrated party leader, he stepped down and There was the Amster mayor who was the most he was he was actually the to be the to be coordinated candidate Yes. So nobody in his right mind in the party there to contest him or at least nobody who had a serious chance. only the let's say only the chances would have would have entered the contest if it were called Right. But it wasn't called because everyone was sure that this Amsterdamor would be the best one for the job So he was in fact within a few weeks time he was he was installed as the leader of of the Labour Party And well also the leader of the The elections that were held a few months after that And then the debate started And there was some sort of change in position because everyone knew him as the well celebrated mayayor of Amsterdam Well respected Everyone thought he was a great listener. He was a great listener and he was great in conference rooms, etcetera But he wasn't so great in the debate. When he was amongst his peers about his peers leaders from other parties who whose only ambition was to ch just well to let him someumone and trip someone and fult Yeah So and in that environment It just sank And you sank' like sensationally. Really? I should know, shouldn I Yeah, it's it's his name, his name is Jf Kohen And he was the party leader between twenty ten and early twenty twelve. when and in twenty twelve, the situation, the labor party was was had become so dire that the Socialist partarty So let's say the old communists They were just running ahead of the Labour Party Gosh So yes Well I don't know Yeah, I mean, there will be a threat of course, to Andy Burnham's Labour Party from the left, although not the communist left. and of course the graver threat at the moment is is coming from the right. Did he have any premal political history because you know, Burnham has been a cabinet minister and he has He knows his way around Westminster. He doesn't sound to me as if he's quite as much of an unknown quantity as the mayor of Amsterdam as in the difference between the national and the urban stage He had he had ample experience as a as a politician actually, because he had been the seecretary of state for. Okay That's what I want in. Okay. and it all went wrong It all went wrong very, very quickly So you're herear like like Banquo's ghost at the feast to remind us of what could all go horribly wrong. Thank you Lucian, and these are important voices of caution. and would a contest That's the point, actually, isn't it? A contest would highlight potential flaws. It would give people an opportunity to rethink their current enthusiasm, a kind of caveat empor Given that there's been a Latin theme to today's programme, and you get a chance to run the rule over what you're buying before you actually make the final decision to hand the money over. Yeah. final call on this, I think we'll move on to something elsequly Jon's in forest, John? what do you reckon? I think a contest would benefit Andy Bernhin and he should state that he would welcome one ly I think it would It would give him legitimacy Um you know, if's being voted in against oppos with opponents by his party he is more legitimate But more importantly, I think a contest gives him time to plan. It's going to give him two or three moments assemble his cabinet to choose the right Chancellor to create a policy from And you just said to one of your callers They have to get everything right from day one. Yes, they do. Time to plan would give him a better chance of getting it right from day one It would give his cabinet. time to formulate their policy platforms and to get on top of their bidge and to hit the ground roing It would give youve use the word stress test. It would give the opportunity to stress test his ideas. and his policies to see how the markets are going to react to his ideas time for the public to get to know him Remember Kamara Harris I don't buy that analogy. It's obviously got some traction, but the The point with Kamala Harris was that they took too long to do it. They should have actually done it much sooner. They should have torn off the plaster with regards to Joe Biden andplaced replaced him much more quickly without a challenge and without any contest. Yes. And Kamala didn't have chance sell herself through the primaries Burnham isn't going to have a chance to soll himselves through a But you're forgetting who the electorate is. The electate The electorate is Labour members The electrity labour remembers are the people he has to win over Is the public? I don't think it works like that And going back but going back to startar you can just gloss over that. It's quite a big point because everything you've said made made it sound as if we all got a vote on who the next Labour leader is or indeed, who the next prime Mister is and we don't. It's only labour members. And if they haven't got a clear idea of who Andy Burnham is yet, then they probably shouldn't be Labour members. Fine. Iressing your point with and with a contest He has to sell himself to his electorate Wh are the Labour MPs? whichich he's already done, as we saw yesterday, when over two hundred of them sort of carried him into parliament on their proverbial shoulders Okay, fine. so West Streeting has come out and said I'm backing him as well. I think West Streeting's probably done his homework Well, I think it's a given. It's a given that is going to be elected. o. So there's not going to be a very robust leadership contest, then, is it I think no, I think the important The important things here are not what happens within his electureate, it's what happens in the back office ning It's the round of me me But it's going to be listen, if there's a battle, it's over by july the sixteenth. If there is't a battle it's over by july the ninth as far as I can tell Well no, there's if there's a battle, then he's got to spend the next month or so, you know, basically se selling his policies pub With a lame Duck Prime M minister in power So what? Well So a lot, I think, if you're worried about the state of the nation. You make some interesting points, but I do think you perhaps forgot who the electorate was and that everything you said would carry a lot more weight if we were talking about a plebis side, if we were talking about a national vote on who's next, but we're not. We're talking about the Labour membership who have made their feelings pretty clear on this Clearer than I can remember actually, probablyb the clearest I can remember since Tony Blair resigned and nobody wanted to stand in Gordon Brown's way. And you could of course also cite that as a reason not to repeat history. It's eleven thirty two. Dominic Gallis has your headlines It is eleven thirty six and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we will I think shake the oldld Etcher sketch and move on Um I hereere's a thing, right When you have a deeply dishonest politician on the march in a strong position And we learned this from watching Donald Trump, didn't we? It's very difficult to keep up. What you have to do is trust your convictions, the courage of your convictions. So to be fair, my inbox today isn't full of people saying, would you please stop going on about Nigel Farager's secret five million pound donation and the fact that he's told three or four conflicting stories about it and also claims he wasn't in politics when he accepted it despite the fact that he owned the actual party that he is now the leader of. I'm just an extraordinary pry Oh misinformation and blowviation, isn't it? Truly extraordinary But I am, of course, as I said to you at ten o'clock this morning, I am fascinated by events and I love talking about events, even as I find them repellent And And I think the way it works is that if you say it often enough then it becomes true. If you achieve power, then you force people to agree with you. If you I don't know how much attention you're paying to what Donald Trump appointments say about the twenty twenty election But it is horrible to watch It's the kind of thing that you probably thought was confined either to less developed countries or the history books where Donald Trump wantce or his regime wants an appointment made to a key role, and they get occasionally exposed to proper scrutiny and questioning in Congress. and they are asked, who won election and they say things like Joe Biden was ratified as the winner of the twenty twenty election. and then they say who won the twenty twenty was it twenty five the next one? Who won the next election? And they say Donald Trump did. So they can say Donald Trump won the election. But they can't say Joe Biden did because they know it will get them into trouble with the liar in chief And that's how it works That's how it works. You just keep lying And You start off taking with you the people who Love your lives because you excuse their racism or their misogyny or their climate change The climate change denial used to be confined, of course to the funders, but they're more likely to have their money in crypto now than they are in fossil fuels. so we may need to slightly rejig that part of the triangle But you keep lying until even people who know that you're lying sort of lose sight of the fact that you're lying So the disputed election result is a bit like saying the disputed phenomenon called gravity or the disputed spherical nature of the moon or this disputed non flatness of the earth, you find an absolute weapon Who will argue the up is down and you can talk about if you're a certain type of journalist and we've seen this in the states tragically, horribly You can talk about the disputed twenty twenty election when it's not disputed at all Even Fox News, whose relationship with the truth is tenuous at best, had to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars after amplifying some of the lies that were made about that election, although you wouldn't know it from their current coverage of the liar in Chie So You have to call this stuff out And of course, not just the dishonesty, but also the attendant horror show, like the claim. there's a real snobbery to what they say about their candidates' comments about Carol Vorderman the comments that he responded to and endorsed about I mean, I don't even want to say it on the radio. I interviewed Carool about it at the time. But there's a real snobber. It's as if Nigel Farage thinks peoplee who didn't go to schools like his. men who didn't go to schools like his publicly, repeatedly express a desire to Forgive me for this, al right, if the kids are in the car, you might just want to turn me down for a second. Nigel Farris seems to think that people with Northern accents or working class backgrounds spend their lives telling each other how much they would like to sniff famous women's bottoms But the snobbery attached to that is extraordinary, right because I'm pretty sure that Richard Tice doesn't come into meetings at Reform HQ and start talking about how much he wants to do that. I'm pretty sure he doesn't. thirty P L, I'm less sure, to be honest with you but not because of his class or his background, just because of his general demeanor Do you think that Zia Yosf comes into reform UK meetings with a list of all the women's bottoms that he'd like to spend the weekend sniffing? becausecause that's what Nigel Farage thinks is normal if you're talking about plumber in Makerfield The snobbery attached to that is off the chart Of course, rich people E allegedly educated people will be misogynistic and hideous. They might, for example, confess to sex offending on a conversation they didn't realise was being recorded. and Farage will pass that off as locker room banter. and the rest of us will sit here and say I would never boast to a friend about grabbing women by there Private park I would never, either privately or publicly express a desire to to sniff a famous woman's bottom I would never nor would any of the men that I know. not even not as banter Not as U humor, not as locker room talk, not as any of those things. And yet Either Nigel Farrage does it all the time or he believes that's how other men behave Or he's lying again To be honest with you, the third theory is probably the most persuasive. He's lying again because he has to stick up for the misogynist The alternative would be to call out the misogyny and because the three things always go hand in hand, the racism, the misogyny and the climate change denial, or the cryptocurrency friendly policies. Because they always go hand in hand, you can't tug one thread without pulling apart the rest of it You can't say that's misogynistic and disgusting. This bloke has no place in our party So he has been u He's been asked about that I think, today, but he's also been asked about this money that he keeps taking. The five million Qiddy took while owner of Reform UK. and it's extraordinary to reflect upon How much his story has changed For example, when the story first emerged He claimed that it was a gift to fund his security It wasn't political in any sense at all, but it was for one purpose I've been the most attacked P physically politician of modern times. And yet despite repeated requests to the home office, the police for protection and help, I've been denied at every twist and turn. This money is the only way I can look after myself and protect myself for the rest of my life. I almost think I should issue a trigger warning to the families of Joe Cox and David Amos when we play a clip like that of him claiming that he's the most physically attacked politician of modern times When he's talking about milkshakes and they have buried a loved one. It's extraordinary it's almost evil the mentality behind that sort of lie, that sort of exaggeration. And then I don't remember but precisely, yes, I do, of course I do. It's my job too. just a couple of weeks later, he changed his story again This found unusual for someone to give up twenty seven years of their life to campaign for something, and this was given to me on an unconditional basis, completely unconditional basis. But frankly, it was given as a reward for campaigning over a Brexit for twenty seven years. That's a political donation then, isn't it? That's a quid pro quo Why did Christopher Harbourne, who's based in Thailand want Brexit Hsw' on pcard, please, but he's given twenty odd million dollars to the party that Nigel Farage owned when he gave him five million could secretly l and in private. So that's two completely conflicting stories Either it was to fund his security whichich will be very carefully assessed, the threat level will be very, very carefully assessed as it is with all sitting parliamentarians, and some of course are much more vulnerable than others. But as a general rule, the kind of people who find Nigel Farage repellent are not the kind of people that you'll find setting fire to hotels or throwing bricks at the police So the assessment of what kind of threat, I'll tell you how pathetic he is. He claims he once claimed on the record that I incited violence against him Whereas of course all I ever do is play you cllip of him speaking his own words. How desperate and pathetic would you have to be to claim that I was capable of inciting violence against somebody who calls for pure cold rage in the aftermath of her of a horrible crime, whereas all I ever call for is peace and love and friendliness. Oh no, and honesty, which is of course where we where we depart. So he changed his story then and claimed that it was a reward for Brexit This morning, he did an interview round and Sally Nugent on the BBC took the question a little bit further and he's so thin skinned like all bullies and cowards He's so thin skinned. It's why he's been hiding for the last several weeks and why Bareiley ever turns up in Parliament anymore because he knows he'll get asked for it and he's hoping that it will just go away Or that if he lies about it often enough, and you can't say that he hasn't lied because both things can't be true If it was to fund his security, then it wasn't a reward for Brexit. And if it was a reward for Brexit, then it wasn't to fund his security So what exactly was it for? Sally Nugent this morning on the BBC wondered. And it literally None of your business. If I've given it to charity, but the truth is, I haven't, I know what it's. You haven't spent any of it. It's none of your business. It's literally none of your How much of your salary do you spend on beer on petrol? It's none of your business I think it is the public's business to know it's not public's business. Well, it's being investigated by the Parliamentary Standards Committee. so it's somebody's security, a legitimate point. How much of that money have you spent on security so far I'm sorry, well I know, I'm not going to answer that deliberately W forull me not It is not your at the time. It is not your business at the BBC to put me in danger, therefore I will not answer that. I would just like to clarify, do not make any mistake. We are not putting you in any danger at all. I you if I answer that question, you ask, I won't It is eleven forty seven and even Nick Ferrari this morning on LBC was reluctant to let him off the hook too quickly. gotot quite heated this conversation. It was a bit like when Ricky and Bianca broke up Nigel Farraage, please what haves happened to this five million pound gift U with all due respect, what hass it got to do with you Well, because it speaks to the position of you hold in office. initially, we were told that it was because of your personal security and it would pay for that for the rest of your life. thenen apparently it was some kind of reward for campaigning for Brexit. I am told we have two different stories, which is the truth. I think you're contradting yourself there, aren't you? Well, if you tell me what happened with the five million pounds, then we're solved It's an unconditional gift. I can spend it on Ferraris if I want, that' been entirely up to me. Why did you say it was a personal security then because the it was given as an unconditional gift, right Y understanding is and you know very well You know very well I've been physically more attacked over many years that any I've been with you when you've been abused. I've seen that. but I just my listeners want to know, Mr. Fre. How much yound with it? I can do with it as I want I can do what I want with it put the horses. You. Yes, you are under review, though, by the Parliamentary Standards Commissioner. Well, maybe we shouldn't be discussing it in that case. but what I will say to you is I know I know that I will need Protection until I die It is eleven forty eight. So there it is. He claims that he is particularly vulnerable. while simultaneously celebrating a woman who called for people to be set on fire and in asylum hotels, literally inviting her onto the state. I mean, it's incredible how disingenuous he is. He claims to be more attacked than any other politician when two have been assassinated in recent living memory. And when you push him as a journalist, He claims that you somehow by asking him questions to which he often replies dishonestly, he claims You are inciting violence. How does it incite violence against Nigel Farage asking him why a billionaire gave him five million quid? And of course even before we found out that a billionaire gave him five million quid, the journalists and there aren't many others. who do a decent job of holding him to an account and explaining what a charlatan he is. He'll claim that they incite violence against him as well. So imagine if I came on the radio and called for pure cold rage he been directed at Nigel Farrey Pure cold rage to be directed at that man. That would make me dangerous and irresponsible All I do is either laugh at him or point out to you what a massive liar he is. How does he respond to that For me you're reaching out into your t critics. how would you convince Euro LBC Trump James O'Brien. I mean I think he he says he stokke division, you know all this. I think he's I think he's somebody I think he's some that incites violence I do. I don't think you You would deny that. He has been called so much hatred towards me. It's just not true. And you know I might have been criticized in the past You know, for attacking people of the European Parliament. dis All I ever did was tease them. You know some of these people, some of what's being said in media and being repeated out there in the streets, particularly since the riot is really un The riots that he's never condemned, of course, and which many people consider he incited. and the riots that were the backdrop to that woman claiming that she wanted to see all of the hotels containing asylum seekers set on fire. a woman who was subsequently provided with a hero's welcome on stage at the party conference for the party that Nigel Farage leads and used to own. In fact, the party that he owned when he accepted the five millionQid from a from Christopher Harbourne And some of the stuff he said about those hideous comments directed at Carol Vorderman probably merit repetition as well. So we'll have a listen to them shortly, and we may even catch up with Carol herself about her latest thoughts on this horrible saga that has been inflicted upon her by Farag and his misogynistic mates eleven fifty five is the time of So to ITV after the BBC, where Nigel Farrage this morning responded to Ramir Singh's question about what he learned about female voters from the Maker Field by election, where Farrage's candidate was of course a self described sexist who had expressed frankly extraordinary views regarding Carol Volderman, who will join us After this Traditionally, new political movements attract more male female voters to begin with. men take risks, I think much more easily, maybe much less responsibly in some cases. I think it Makeer feelld we had a problem. Which was What some of the historic things Our candidate, great bloke, plumber, rugby player, ex army guy, sexist, drrinker, one of the lads, and you know, if you go into pubs tonight when you were playing football, you would hear all sorts of banter that in the cold light of day would not look good. That did us harm And you didn't ask him to apologizeise to say, for example, Carol Volderman, W was that a mistake on your? Well, I think Carol Volderman, know writing letters to every constituent and directly involving herself women, directly involving herself in a political campaign. I think there was some serious questions. she was brought into it. She was brought into it because your candidate didn't apologize to her and I'm wondering say on Breakfast very saidad because it's so bad And it will be in every pub tonight. That's the point I'm making. Oh no. I'm afraid. Most men do not say that kind of thing about women. What was said by him was Lad's banter. I don't approve of it. I don't approve of it At all, all right? notot at all in any way I mean, speaking of pubs, during England's last game against Croatia, he posted a picture of himself in a pub that was two years old Wearing an England shirt. That's a measure of the man for you. So quite what he's basing his experience of pub based banter on is at the very best, two years out of date and at the very worst, completely invented. Carol Vorderman, people probably don't fully appreciate that you, despite being one of the most recognizable faces on our television screens for years, your childhood and your early years were far from luxurious or privileged. You come effectively from a working class background. Did all the men you knew Gring up, speak like that No. and I haste to ask you to go, o yeah, here are building sites. So I grew up in abject poverty in North Wales and the strip of North Wales that's kind of Very much attached to Liverpool Chester Mank. And then I lived in Leeds for many years rec ca a countdown at Berwich, which was television And you know, I would regard my sort essence as really a northerner, but certainly not one from the southeast. and it's like, You know, My stepfather was a builder I spent so many years on building sites. I worked as I studied civil engineering. I worked on a construction site in Nodonia, undernderground me, the only woman with two thousand men. Nobody. ever said those things to me noody. And Nigel Farid is an absolute disgrace. And there when he said, Oh yes, well, you know, it's just Lads Banter. but of course I don't approve. You time he' sort of It just fails and when he was up in Makerfield last week, You know, when he was asked a question again about this online abuse by Kenyan, he went So what Form is an anti women What company, let's be honest, it's a company owned by Farrage he doesn't own it anymore. although he did own it when he accepted five million quid from Christopher Harbourne despite not being involved in politics at the time So I am pleased that the result in Megafield was a dramatic one for the tactical vote and also because we know the letter and keeping on talking about Rob Kenyon's sexism, including on question time, as you would have seen. led a lot of women to change their vote and I'm very happy about that You know Far is saying o she shouldn't be covered and she shouldn't be involved in political campaigning Well, I have news for you, love, if you're listening I'll carry on doing what I want to do. And just to clarify, Carol Alderman, you do that with your own money, do you, as opposed to with secret donations from Thai based billionaires James as she meant I get sacked from jobs for speaking my mind. I lose money. I Not from LBC for the record. I was not sacked by LBC. quite the opposite. that was for health reasons. That was an exhaustion. No by the BBC. And no, I've never had a donation from anybody. Do do you think well we could posly we rectify that I'm sure we could start a crowdfund. What Do you think that he talks like that himself or that the men he knows talk like that? Or do you think because he obviously when Donald Trump talked about grabbing women by their private parts, he seem to be under the impression that that's how all men talk? I mean Is he just covering up for the misogyny of his candidates and friends in the case of Kenyan and Trumble? orr does he just knock about with a particularly unsavory bunch of men. What do we think is going on here? I think that fundamentally is who he is. It's a combination of all those things that you say. He thinks he's on a roll, he isn't. Reform is on their way out now. As we know, even over the last year, it went down from Almost thirty five percent in the polles to now about twenty three and they're just going down down down And I predict he will leave the party probably by the end of next year when they get down to sort sixteen percent in the polls and they're an also ram party just like. twenty nineteen, you know, he just gifted it to Boris Johnson, didn't he? He could retire to spend more time with other people's money. You also predicted that Kirirstala wouldn't lead labour into the next general election when we spoke a couple of years ago. I had to be reminded of that by somebody. So perhaps Mstic Carol is the name that we could apply to you. A whisperer Yeah. Wh were whyy were you so confident of that I was in the Labour Party conference last September I had the chance to do it. there are about four or five hundred people in the audience, all obviously Labour Party members and many of them were councllors. I was with Carol Kadwallader on the stage and said, look, You know, Kir Obama, my prediction, will never be voted in again as Prime Minister. And if you want to win another election, you're going to have to change the leader. And then I did some half joking stuff about Andy Bernnavat, you know And And interestingly then, so it's almost a year ago the Labour Party conference, having said all of that more or less got a standing ovation from the whole audience. And that's when you know was going on at the time Well, we're grateful for your insights, both both the clairvoyant ones and the slightly more personal ones. and I know that you can talk about being thick skinned and having dealt with This kind of conduct, not specifically this kind of conduct, but various degrees of misogyny throughout your life. But I've said it to you before and I'll say it again, I don't think you should have to. I don't care how thick your skin is. I think it's disgusting that you have been personally exposed to these kind of comments and the defense of them by Nigel Farage and that your children have to see it. and even if it is water off a duck's back for you Um I'm really sorry that you have to endure it Well, that's kind of. I'm sorry for Wen who haven't had my kind of background who have to endure it. And this whole daily grind that women have to put up with online and also obviously offline. I think it's time to say enough now And but in many ways It's like oxygen to me because I love to fight with a rongen I love it Long may it continue, Carol Volderman. and remind me never to get on the wrong side of you. Carol Volderman, live responding to comments from Nigel Farris this morning about the deeply misogynistic online comments made by his self described sexist candidate, defeated candidate in Makerfield And just to clarify, Farage insists that the five million pound gift is not a donation, it's a gift, although it was both a reward for Brexit and indeed for his security, but also unconditional for him to spend on whatever he wanted. And this morning, on interviews he was comparing it with salaries He was asking presenters what they did with their salary and suggesting that he had as much right to know what they spent their salary on as in the money they receive for services rendered. as what he spent the money he received from Christopher Harbourne on. So it was Nigel Faris this morning who was drawing parallels between what he calls a gift and other people's salary as in the wages they receive for doing what their employer wants them to do U I'm not sure he realized that. It's twelve o four. And it's eight minutes after twelve. Welcome to the partarty. We are celebrating on this programme the tenth anniversary of the Brexit referendum because none of the people that won seem to be keen to celebrate it. Some of them keep saying we should stop talking about it despite the fact that this week alone it was reported to have sustained a six percent hit to our GDP later in the hour. I'll play you a conversation I had earlier this morning with Michelle Barnier, who of course was the chief negotiator for the European Commission over that epic saga dealing with possible to keep track of how many Prime ministers he was dealing with, albeit that he didn't conduct the negotiations in the first instance with the actual prime ministers. and not long after that he became Prime Minister himself of France for about six months. are fascinating. politician, a fascinating man, very dignified man, a kind of reminder of what odd politicians used to look like when it was peopleeople like Michael Hesseltine stalking the corridors of power or Neil Kinck. But I don't know, we seem to have come a very long way from those days. Hopefully, I thought, personally, K Stara might signal a return to them, but that hope has proved to be forlorn. What I want you to tell me Is And this is a slightly odd question for me to ask you because I obviously have a very resounding answer to it, which I've written almost I've written an entire book that is almost an answer to this question. There is some other stuff in it as well But how much of our current mess is attributable, not not in full But at least in part, to Brexit I mean, it is extraordinary, isn't it that the massed ranks of the media almost all of the media. Even the bits of the media that weren't in favor of it hedged their bets by getting their Sunday title to be in favor of it at the timimes, for example, where their daily title ostensibly wasn't. Um But Rupert Murdoch, of course was I think you just felt that the Times newspaper in that era, in that ten year ago pereriod, the readers wouldn't really stomach a position as stupid. are supporting leaving the European Union But leave the European Union, we did. Speaking of newspapers, the Daily Express today, which has sort of become a Bible for the hard of thinking goes with a front page claiming that there is a brilliant Brexit goes to a different school That isn't quite what it says on their front page, but it may of well have done because that is the point that they make With a front page on the morning after a British Prime Minister resigned, the Daily Express goes for Give us a proper Brexit Indeed, they've sort of mocked up a picture of the white cliffs of Dover upon which to stick that claim give us a proper Brexit. and of course none of them can tell you what a proper Brexit would be. Or rather they can tell you what a proper Brexit would be because a proper Brexit is what they got But they can't admit that because what they got was a load of rock And it certainly didn't bear any resemblance to what they were promised they would get by various liars in Charlatans, some of whom continue to dominate public discourse in this country And don't please think for a minute that that's accidental or coincidental or a mark of any particular skills on the part of the Lars and chararlatans. You know, Johnson gets rewarded with a column in the Daily Mail. Johnson gets rewarded with a free house in the garden of the Bloke that owned JCB after he got slung out by his own partarty These people get rewarded by the establishment evenven as they claim to be anti establishment. David Frost writing in the teelegraph last week about the establishment having it in who is the establishment If it's not the daily telegraph Who is the establishment If it's not Rupert Murder, who is the establishment If it's not Boris Johnson, who on earth is this establishment that Nigel Farrage is supposed to be opposed to They got the only Brexit that was available Anything other than what they got would have been immeasurably worse and anything better than what they got would have involved retaining freedom of movement because you can't have freedom of movement of goods or freedom of movement of money or freedom of movement of services without having freedom of movement of people. Those four things were inalienable and inseparable alwaysways were and almost certainly always will be, although some of what Michelle Barnier said to me about the circumstances in which we could rejoin the European Union Well not necessarily newsworthy because he's made similar noises before are of great interest to me, and I suspect we'll be to you So It's mad to me, but utterly and dispiritingly unsurprising that ten years after the event, you have my old newspaper actually, the Daily Express, although it was a very different organ then can still be selling this bilge to its readers can still be Gaslighting them, grooming them into believing that they weren't conned in twenty sixteen. Oh don't worry, you weren't conned. It's just that Boris Johnson didn't deliver what you wanted What the same Boris Johnson that you treated like a cross between champion the Wonder Horse and Mother Thesa his entire premise. Yeah, that bloke. Yeah, T turns out he was a wrongan Shouldn't you have told us at the time Souldn't Farriage have told you that Johnson was a wrongghom and he stood down his own MP candidates in order to Greece, Boris Johnson's passage into Downing Street shouldould? So who are you blaming for the fact that Brexit has failed Carol Alderman and you. James O'Brien and Carolvill and Gary Linaker I'm only half joking because they do and they will. But if Brexit was not delivered, if what was delivered was not a proper Brexit, whose fault was it? It was Boris Johnson that delivered the Brexit you got It was Boris Johnson that got cheered to the rafters for delivering the Brexit that you got. It was Boris Johnson greeted, delivering a Brexit very, very similar to the one that Theresa May had organised, but which of course he managed to mastermind the removal of Theresa May from Downing Street for organizing. There was never anything better on the table if you didn't accept freedom of movement of people And the racists couldn't do that. So everything they got is all they were ever going to get There was that horrible window where they were so stupid that they flirted with the idea of taking something even worse than what they got And they would go on about WTO. go WTO Well we can come out on World Trade organ. And if you ask any of them what that meant They would fall apart like a cheap suit. The strangest Perhaps the most significant political experience of my professional life. and I've told you this a million times, but it's the tenth anniversary of Brexit. and no one else is celebrating. So I'll tell you again was when I sat in a television studio, with a man called Pascal Lamy a former director Geral of the World Trade Organization And sitting opposite him in that television studio was a woman called Andrea Leedsom And I'm not being unkind, but I can't think of anything to add. Now where I said about Pascal Lemi, a former director General of the World Trade Organization All I can think of to say about Andrea Ledsam is that she has never and had never and will never have anything whatsoever to do with the World Trade Organization And this was when Johnson thought that threatening the European Union with a no deal would somehow frighten them into acquiescence. It would be a bit like me turning up at your house and saying, if you don't give me all your money, I'm going to chop my own leg off. And you'd probably not give me all your money at that point But that was the tactic that was being deployed by Boris Johnson and the boy genius Dominic coming And part of that threat involved saying, well, if we go WTO, we'll be better off.'ll be we'll be fine, we'll be laughing And people turned up with banners going let's go WTO peopleople who believed in things like bendy bananas were convinced. They persuaded by then the damage had already been done. their poor tiny little brains had been boiled into oblivion and they actually thought Wor trade Organization rules were preferable or desirable or even feasible They didn't know what it even meant. But by then their brains were so boiled that they just grabbed onto it and pretended not only that they understood what it meant, but that they wanted it And the BBC being what it was and sadly still is insisted that I interviewed Andrea Leedsome alongside the man who used to run the World Trade Organization. So I can turn to the man that used to run the World Trade Organization And I could say U What would it mean if we were to come out on WTO rules? And he could tell me politely. It didn't really mean anything because it was more or less impossible and that if it did mean anything it would be awful No trade deals with anybody ever So we sort of either become an ash tray for all the stuff in the world that nobody else wants to buy because it breaks all the rules, all the regulations, all the health of safety provisions or I mean, there wasn't even an answer to the question because it was such a stupid question. but Pascal Lami was an honorable man. is an honouorable man and he was able to explain what a stup, what a ludicrous prospect. WTO rules was then I have to turn to Andrea Leedsom and invite her to tell him why he's wrong On Newsnight on the BBC, not on GBB's on actual newews night Could you please tell the former Director General of the World Trade Hello lady who has never worked for the World Trade Organization, never will work for the World Trade Organization, has absolutely no understanding of the World Trade Organization and has never had anything to do with the World Trade Organization and quite possibly struggles to spell WTO. Could you please explain to the former Director genereneral of the World Trade Organization Why you know more about it than he does That was the moment. Two things happened. Number one, I thought I can't do this anymore I can't pretend to be impartial. It's like being impartial about gravity or being impartial about rain. It's either happening or it's not And the second thing I thought was that this doesn't get undone When it's over This is so deep now. This runs so deep into our country into our discourse. It's going to take generations to undo it. We are treating fools and liars as if they are the intellectual equivalent of experts and people who have actually done the job We are treating we are elevating fools and liars. to the same status. as the people who know what they're talking about and we're calling it balance So when I look at the state of the country and I wonder why we're in such a mess why we've had or will soon have had seven prrime mininisters in under eleven years I look at Rriots on our streets, I look at incredible levels of civil disobedience. The civil disobedience itself isn't new, but the levels of it are Certainly inviting a woman who calls for pogroms to be fated on the stage of a British political party These are new developments And I want you to tell me how much of it goes back to Brexit and why and how U, because it does But I want to know how much of it does and I want to know why it does. And I want to know how it does. zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. I've also got a bunch of clips. We barely scratch the surface of these. We've got the brown faces behind the tills at Tesco Boke. Do you remember him We've got all the classics here. We've even got one I feel a little sorry for Ashley and Pinna because this was a call that I conducted with countless people at the time omeone persuaded that the best reason to leave the European Union is because we won't have to obey their pesky laws anymore In which case you'll definitely be able to name lots of laws you're looking forward to not having to obey anymore, won't you? Yeah, I think we all know how that one ends So Explain to someone who's been asleep for ten years Why much of the mess we find ourselves in today as a country up to and including perhaps the swiftness and the ease with which we Change Prime Minister now can be traced back. to that referendum result came in ten years ago today, but which none of the people who caused it currently see fit to celebrate. Make of that what you will. And then of course you have the Daily Express popping up to remind us of the greatest lie of all ten years in There is a brilliant Brexit, there is a proper Brexit, there is a different Brexit. It just goes to a different school So just just link the febriile nature of British politics to whatever was unleashed ten years ago today Okay. zero three four five, sixzero sixzero nine seven three and I'll take symptoms or causes. anything you've got by way of assembling a tapestry of understanding so that if you'd fallen asleep on the twenty second of June twenty sixteen and you woke up yesterday and you looked at the state of your country and you said, What, another prime minister has gone Poggrums on our streets, what? Senior politicians responding to the murder by responding to a horrible murder by completely ignoring the family. of the victim and telling lies about the Okay, what's happened Throw me a map S me you're working. It's twelve twenty two Because it's not all of it I mean, you can look at Germany's economic performances twenty sixteen and correctly and persuasively describe it as worse than ours. And sometimes I hear Brexiters trying to pretend that that proves Brexit was a good idea. You won't find anybody in Germany except whatever the German equivalent of Andrea Ledsom is You won't find anybody in Germany who thinks things would have been better for them if they hadn't been in the Europeion. So it doesn't matter how bad it is, and it is a worse performance than ours for a whole heap of reasons. It would have been even worse if they weren't in the biggest single market on the planet. That's not even an opinion, that's counting. But unfortunately, it was counting in twenty sixteen. And many people decided that two plus two equals seven And they're still on the march. they've still got the columns, they're still presenting the programs that they use to tell you to vote for it and why it was a great idea when every single thing that they bed that ludicrous opinion on has been shown to be false So how much of the current madness how much of the current horror How much of the current malise can be traced back And is in liivable. Andy, what would you like to say Hi, James. Listen, thank you very much for the show. I absolutely adore the show. than you lovely.. trrust me. Thank you. It's the one show that I listen to Don't scream at the screen, you know what I mean? It's just it really is, it really is. That's love. just like to say, I just I am Okay I'm an older person now. I am appallred by what this country has become because of Brexit and it really has It could be traced back to that. I mean, I'm not being funny, right? Yes, there was the national Fund. It was all those things going on years gone by. It happened. Yes, we knew it happened we didn't have England flags Theyicking on lampposts or Welsh flags or Scottish flags or whatever you might want to call, you Well except during sporting tournaments. Exactly Eactly. I mean, it's happening now because people say it's a sports tournament. But these fluags have been up for six months. Exactly. But sports tournament lasts for six months. Right? Why are we doing this? Why are we allowing this to happen It's illegal support on the lamp posts but the local authorities have not takaking them down, right? Because therere I challenge me, look Yeah I've challenged my local authority and said, Listen, they need to come down, rightight I mean, if somebody's able to go up with like a ladder and push them up then I'm able to go up a lot of takeen down Right Why'd you link this to Brexit? Why did you link this to Brexit Right. Brexit basically caused the votes Right? Yes, there was true immmigration beforehand, but people didn't jump in a boat come across the channel. It never happened, right? The reason why it didn't happen was because people could come over here on screens, whatever it may be. We had safe routes. It safe and legal Exactly Exactly, right. Now it wasn't Brexit that closed that. It was Johnson. We didn't have to close those safe and legal routes. They just chose to in order to appease the people who voted for Brexit in order to get rid of all the foreigners The problem you've got is we're putting people through, right? We're putting people like men, women, children. one of the most dangerous waterways in the world, right? We're letting them go across a twenty odd mile stretch of water, which is so busy you can get not you know, you can get The fararagist would respond by saying that nobody is forcing them to. but just just just Draw me a slightly stronger link between Brexit and all the things that you're describing. because I feel it I just want to hear it in your words. What was unleashed It makes it acceptable for people to be anti Europe anti And it's not even anti Europe. it's anti people who don't look like It's anti people Actually you don't even need that. It's anti people 's anti. It's not It doesn't matter whether they look like us or not because the people that he got cross about at the time that they all got cross about at the time did look like us. It was Polish people and Romanian people and French people and Spanish people and European people. That's who they voted to get rid of. And then of course All of the vacancies that were left had to be filled by people who it turned out didn't look like ours. And because it was a much bigger journey to make and a much bigger lifestyle upheaval, they wanted to bring their families with them and we had to quite rightly let them because otherwise they wouldn't have come and that's all on Boris Johnson. and Boris Johnson was a consequence of Brexit. So all of what you describe is a consequence of Brexit? O course in a nicer country, then that wouldn't have mattered because we wouldn't be raging at the fact that there are too many brown and black faces on our television or in our supermarkets, which reminds me actually of Stehen Harrow and that seminal clip from the Brexit years of him complaining or explaining why he voted to leave the European Union because of all the brown people working at his local supermarket. I may play that to you shortly, but I want to leave enough time play my conversation with Michelle Barnier. A the very latest news headlines that are coming up next, I will leave a little bit of time because it's quite a long conversation and then we're going to run out on we so I've got plenty of people waiting to talk about this, but alsoso kind of focusing on the fact that we've got four clips to get through. That's not going to happen. We've got a fifteen minute interview of Michigelle Barnio to get through. That's not going to happen. And we've got Murray and Bob and Leah and Andy and othersaing. Oh no, we've spoken to Andy and others waiting to talk about how much of the current mess can be traced back to Brexit. And of course we've got Amelia Cox with your headles It is very difficult to believe that ten years ago today people were insisting that this would be a day of national celebration, that every year the anniversary of our Brexit referendum would be celebrated with dancing in the streets festivals and enormous parties Michelle Barnier Obviously you were the Commission's chief Brexit negotiator for that sometimes interminable five year period. and you are in London for the anniversary, have you seen any celebrations Have you witnessed any parties? No, because I think there is nothing to celebrate, frankly speaking, nothing, except perhaps a mutual respect, friendship and also There there is respect between us, but there is nothing to celebrate because Brexit remains ten years after and even five years after, a loseose game. Can you remember your reaction upon hearing the news of what the United Kingdom had done is very surprised as so many people. It was unbelievable, but it was a choice of the UK people. So we have never tried to ot respect this sovereign decision. We have regretted this decision clearly everybody in Europe, but we have decided to deliver. And have you come subsequently to a greater understanding of how it happened when you have perhaps become more familiar with some of the characters that drove the leave campaign Does it become clearer to you how the country is? Be first of all, during the first sequences of the negotiation twenty sixteen and seventeen during beef W waiting for the Snap elections in june seventeeenh, I tried to understand why fifty two percent of the British people wanted to leave Europe, why Farage and some others succeeded to use the scapegoat of Brussel to explain all the British difficulties, which was not true which is not true? Brussel is not responsible for everythinging. And the fact is that there is many problems in the UK, in France too, and the reason and the solution are not in Brussels for everything. And Mr. Farage now, of course, is riding high in the polls despite the think undeniable failure of the Brexit project. Is that a significant factor in how the Commission may view rapprochemment? The prospect of Farages becoming Prime Mister means that any resettlement or renegotiation that the current government undertakes is is kind of written in sand. Let me say just a word about Kir Stammer because I have a lot of respect for Kir Stammer. We met several times during the negotiation and after when I was French Prime Mister two years ago, and to be clear, I have no comment to do, but in any case whatever will happen in the future, I wish the best for the UK people and for the UK I don't want to make any speculation what could happen in the next four or five years in the UKu In any case to create this reset to build a new spirit between you and UK will depend on the UK choice. We are open. We are there and I think it is a common interest apart or in addition to the Brexit which is done. and for us the Brexit is under booker. The point is to know what we can do What we need to do together for our defense, stability of the continent, exxactly what we' done together to support Ukraine, for the fighting against terrorism, even for cooperation between intelligence services and so on. We have lots to do for our own security and for the stability of the continent. I think and we are going to work with the UK Has euroscepticism in France diminished substantially as a consequence of looking over the channel I don't think so, I don't think so because in France the same people, nationalists and populists use exactly the same argument against Brussel. It is not true. The proof is made in UK that it is not true, it is a lie. Part of the solution are in Brussels And we need to confirm, to consolidate, to support Europe and to change Europe at the same time, but to remain together because it is clearly our national interest, it is our national interest to be European in addition to be patriot. You've said to the surprise of some observers that you could not personally see any obstacle to the UK keeping the pound, staying out of the euro and also staying out of Schengen. in the event of rejoining. I think the Polish Foreign Minister, Radek Sikorsky has has disagreed with you on that. you stand by your observation Yes, yes. And it is my personal view, I think if the UK in the future I don't know far from now to rejoin, the door is open. and in that case, we will open a new negotiation, but I think we have to take into account the fact that it will be a very exceptional a very particular case. the reason why I mentioned these two points. What are your abiding memories of that five year negotiation period? What were you most perhaps surprised by F it was longer And in a certain sense Brexit has been for me and for many people a school of passiions. I always been very respectful It was sometimes very difficult to understand the domestic politics and how, for instance, Tres Aaya and her team failed to reach an agreement under the negotiation at three times Was it it was doable but she couldn't sell it to her own Party. Yes did that surprise you? the gulf between the achievable and the political was huge? Another surprise was the attitude of Johnson and some others fighting against their own prrime minister But I don't want to make any comment on domestic policy here. We have in France, we have no lessons to give. your own tenure as Prime Minister was short enough, I think, to stand comparison with the British model too be frank D differentere reons. It is one of the lessons of my term as Prime Minister of France to have lot of compassion and comprehension towards the Prime Minister who lost his majority. Will you run for president of France? Do you think you may? the point is not the question is not this one. The question is how we will be able to have one single candidate for the cent of R? It is My main goal today, have no f, personal fabrility to be clear. I just think that to avoid a disaster of a duel at the second round of the present election between the far right and the far left, need we must be able to have one single candidate. I don't tell you who will be this candidate, but I'm working for one single program between the centre and the right, peoplean write, this is my party. and I'm working for one candidate. Every element of this conversation, which goes back ten years, is underpinned by instability and disruption in both of our countries. How big a role do you think that Russia has played in that process? Everybody knows that we face in the daily political life in each of our countries and it was the case for the referendum in Brexit. It would be the case for many elections everywhere in Europe We face foreign indifferences from from Russia, obviously, but also from the United States and from China also. So it's a reason why we need to be strong and to be independent. Have you been surprised by Donald Trump's conduct in his second term? Yes, because it is the very, very first time since six years that the US president President of the United States of Met do not support the European project the very first time. So we have to accept this new situation and to draw the lesson which is in any case, to be independent, to be able to do for ourselves what nobody will do at our place. So it could be a blessing in disguise in the long term because the dependency is over and Europe becomes more self sufficient. First of all, Do not confound and confuse the current president of the United States with the Americans and the United St in any case,r Mr. Trump will leave in two or three years or four years and the United States will still there as ally and friends. So but in any case we need to be less dependent for our energy, for our security, for our food. This is the right lesson to draw from the aggressive aggression against Ukraine and also what happened in the Middle East for the moment. How worried are you for the future and security of Europe I'm worried if we are not able to join our efforts to cooperate and to make the financial and technical and military fors which are necessary to be independent. My goal is to be able to build a strong European pillar inside the framework of NATO, but we need to be more stronger and more independent. I think that the summit between the Commission and the UK will be postponed because of Andy Burnham's arrival in Downing Street. Two questions. Do you have any personal knowledge of Andy Burnham? And how optimistic can I be as a British Europhile that this resettlement will be substantive and significant I don't know personally E Barden, but I was told I am told that he friendly with Europe and I think it will be on the same line K timeamer to increase our volation. The point is we have something need to do together. If it's clear that there will be no cherry picking in the single market. If this clear line is understood by everybody, I think we have lot to do to of cooperation for defense security and external policy. One of our front pages today, one of our newspapers, one of the more excitable newspapers has a front page which says now give us a proper Brexit So after ten years, a significant part of our media and our political establishment still believes in a Brexit that I think was always mythical. I know the argument of the populist and nationalist about the Brexit, but the Brexit had been delivered properly and it was clear it was clearly the decision of the UK people and Mr Fers and his friends to obtain the Brexit and we have delivered the Brexit defending in our side the single market. Miche Barni, thank you very much. twelve forty eight is the time. It was a slightly poignant conversation in many ways, wasasn't it? That old line in Rabby Burns about to see ourselves as others see us quuite a gift, isn't it? it ain't pretty. I just in the interest of Brexit myths that are still around, I've heard some people claim today that we wouldn't have been able to conduct our COVID nineteen vaccine rollout if we hadn't left the European Union. That's a lie. Just so you know, it's a complete lie. There was absolutely nothing about European Union Well, we were still, I think, technically members at the time, weren't we? But either way There was absolutely nothing about European Union membership that legally obliged any members to join the joint procurement scheme? Anyway, back to the Glory days, Ashley and Pinner speaks for so many when he insisted in October of twenty sixteen that the main reason to leave the European Union was because of all those pesky laws Well, I believe the argument is there's multiple arguments immigration, they' got controlled immigration. But again, it' not it's not about, you know, I'm not xenophobic. you know, I'm not totally multicultural. I've got a family live in America in Bermuda, in Spain. and all immigrants. Yeah, well, immigrants are fine. You know there's nothing wrong. You know, they're the same as me and you looking for the best future for their family. But it's not about that. It's about the control. It's about our prime Minister having not having to succumb to the EU saying that he can or she can't do anything. I mean, it's The fact that we, you know and that's fine. I've got no beef with you. If immigration's all you've got, then you're the cliche. you're the walking cliche. But what's interesting, Ashley, I hope you won't take this the wrong way. What's interesting is that you spend five minutes pretending that you've got proper political arguments or economic understanding. and then as all of those claims fall away, you're just left with foreigners. No, no, definitely not. How has immigration damaged your life, would you say in its current for. Well, well, obviously being a trade, immigration is has pull prices No not for electricians. There's scant evidence that for completely unskilled labour it might have subjected some wage compression in the care home industry and maybe unskilled labour on working sites, but there's actually a shortage of qualified electricians in this company country, which is probably why you've gone self employed So it's not that, is it?? Well past is part of those electricians you're an electrician. I'm asking all skilled labour is actually at a shortage at moment. That's one of the reasons we can't build as many houses as we need to. So just inerms of Ashley and Pinner and the damage that uncontrolled mass immigration has done to your life. Just give me the headlines alking walking through the city center and seeing and seeing mobs of of immigrants not willing to integrate We' Walking through the center of Pinna and seeing mobs of immigrants not willing to immigrate, not willing to integrate Pimas stand by call Pimas. not fin up yeah, I mean how do you think leaving the European Union is going to disperse those mobs, actuallyhle? I think we can will have more control over how But they're already here, Mate. Yes, we'll have more control They're here. So those mobs that upset you so much as you walk through town and see these mobs of immigrants refusing to integrate. now that we're going to leave the European Union, what's going to happen to the mobs? And I believe that We can integrate them because we can we have the choice and we have the authority to do what we like without. So when we pass So you've cast your vote because you don't want these people hear in the numbers that they're hearing, but you think that by doing that, you're going to make them more amenable to integration and friendliness. So you deliver a message to someone saying we don't like you and you think that makes them more likely to be your friend It's not about liking anyone. Well you don't like the mobs in the middle of town, do you No, and that goes that goes with mobs of Englishmen as well. You know it doesn't matter on race. O. So it's got nothing to do with immigration then It's just mobs you don't like Yeah, just don't like mobs. And bananas Yeah ye and all those laws that you can't name. banan. Yeah. Yeah. Let's just finish with a quick question. when you said it's going to be a short term economic hit. How long is short term I think it's going to be under five years It every single one of your customers is going to be worse off than they needed to be for half a decade and you're happy with that I'm happy yeah, I'm happy with that. All right, mate, Let's not fall out. And I hope the business goes, I really do. I hope it booms, even though you've voted to have fewer customers and less money in the pockets of the ones you've already got. twelve fifty two is the time, off course Plymouth was indeed the scenes of violence. during the Fage riot back in twenty twenty four, but I'm not quite sure that was the kind of mob he was complaining about the ones that were throwing bricks at the police and setting fire to things. And of course all the faces of the mobs he would have been talking about would have been white, which brings us to Stehen Harrow and a call on the eighth of december twenty eighteen I live in Harrow. Yeah. When I go down to Harrow And this is not being racist, James, because that term is so easily used and very loosely used. When I go down to Harrow and I've lived here for thirty years, I walk into Harrow shopper Center and I swear to God, I don't know where I am. I've got Polish, Romanians, Bulgarians sitting outside coffee houses doing sodle all day, I've got Every nationality under the sun. and it's lost its identity. When I go into Norfolk Park Hospital and I went in there three Sundays ago because I had to go in an emergency, I walked into the accident of emergency. as I said you're a researcher. one hundred twenty people in there. I was lucky if I saw three or four white places. It's okay if you live that is racist No That last bit is realistic. No no it isn't because you're forming an opinion of people or their value based on their colour. There are people who don't have white faces who are just as British as you and me, Steve. Perhaps there are James, No they all are. And' namely the European Union. Steve, Mate, let's not do this. let's do it nicely. Just tell me the European Union country that is populated by non white people I couldn't tell you Wh have a guy, have a little think. a question. the European Union countries because we're talking about your reasons for leaving the European Union. And then you mentioned the fact that there weren't any white people in Northwolk Past Hospitals. So which European Union countries are essentially non white Probably none So why are you talking about those people then? Oh let's backtrack. Yeah, let's me. I'm happy to let you do that. No, let's backtack, but it is still a valid point, Jane. Not in the context of a conversation about the European Union, Steve. And I'm afraid that if you are judging people according to their skin colour, then you are. and I say this with love and reluctance, then you are indulging in racial prejudice But James I don't care what colour you are.' say I'm never going to say to Beth at the end of the programme, we had too many black people on today or we had too many white people on today. But it's not about it's not all about White people white English people We're going off tangent? No, you did, mate. I'm just raining you back in again. so crack on about It's not all about the racist issue. It's just about the fact that the country has lost its identity. What does that mean? And Well, what does it mean? It means that what I've just said that you've just said that you don't like seeing brown faces at the hospital. Okay No Is it right then, James? Let's give another example, right? I might be digging myself a big hole, but I'll pull you out, mate, I promise. R The point I'm trying to make, if you went down to my local and I'll give you an absolute point here, if you went down to my local supermarket, I won't name which one it is, okay. And one of my sons tried to get a job down or two of my sons tried to get a job down there in a few years when they were in between university and going into going from college to university At one point, James, there was twenty three tills open and twenty two of them, okay, ma'am Indians or Pakistani people. We're talking about the European Union, state. No, but what I'm trying to say, James is this is where it's all coming from. And when I mentioned this to the manager, o, manager said to me wed have to reflect local community. And the point I'm trying to make change and you're trying to to some degree defend me but to attack me is is that right, James? Mate That is why people have voted out of Europe Because we've got too many brown people on the tills in Harrow. about no, it's not about having too many, but when I was What is it then, Steve? Just can't make slow down a little bit Be because if you're not complaining about there being too many brown people, why do you keep talking about the number of brown people in the hospital and the number of brown people in the supermarket? re The reason I'm saying that is change is because that is why people voted to leave Europe because of Great Britain. I don't disagree with you No, it's not because of Great Britain losing its identity, it's because people are frightened to brown people No it's not about it no chang. What difference does it make to me? Just help me out here because I can kind of get my because I work on the phones every day, so I have no idea what color anybody is. could Steve, stop talking, stop talking just for a moment, my friend. All right Why does it matter to you what color the person that you buy your milk off is? Well it doesn't matter the color that I the person I buy my milk off James. But what the point I'm trying to make is why people voted out of Europe. I'm not arguing with you. They voted out of Europe because they think there's too many brown people in their hometowns. Is it unfair then, James to say that when I mentioned what I said about the local supermarket and the hospital I' told and the hospital, but let's go to the supermarket. When I am told that we have to reflect the local community, is that not racist, James? No, Steve. Ah dear. Um And there it is. O course now of course we've got political parties in which you don't even get disciplined for saying that there were too many brown and black faces on your televisions in your adverse. That has now become normal. So there's a poignancy to Steve's contribution. Anyway, that's it from me for another day. All that remains is for me to remind you because we've been celebrating the ten year anniversary of Brexit U Just one moment, please Lovely. I'm going to have a pint of champagne now. pint bottle of champagne. that was did that that never happened either? didid it? Do you remember when that was all they had? Well, we're going to have pipe bottles of champagne That never happened. The ultimate Brexit emblem in many ways. If you miss any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global player or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news. Jones O'Brien Daily, of course, podcasts and others available Now on that app, download it now for free from your app store. Ben Kentish, you' lovely to see Ben in the office yesterday. is in for Tom Swbrick at four, but now it's time for Sheila Fogertty This has been a Gobal playlayer original production