Makerfield by-election and local politics

This is a Global Player original podcast Good morning, it's four minutes after the ten and it's one of those mornings where I changed my mind about what we were going to talk about as I made my way down the stairs to the studio. I won't bore you with the with the details, but it's a slightly more convoluted journey than usual because of the building work that has been unfolding at global towers for what feels like a very, very long time, but I believe they're ahead of schedle. Anyway, you're not interested in that. So Kir Stalmer has warned Andy Burnham against launching an immediate challenge to his leadership if he becomes an MP. And So not so Wet Streeting, not yet. West Streeting has essentially moved in the opposite direction by revealing that he is prepared to trigger a leadership election next week. and I realized something. As I contemplated the possibility of talking about this today, as I sort of changed my mind as I made my way down the stairs, I realized something and I'm a little bit reluctant to tell you Because it's kind of u Kind of my job to have not just positions and opinions, but also the courage of my convictions and because I'm rare for a radiop phoneone host, the evidence and the facts to back up whatever opinion it is that I'm sharing with you. And I have not been backwards and coming forwards over the last few years with my opinions of politicians, most of which have been negative, I suppose. It's a lot easier to arrive at a negative position, then it is at a positive But I don't know whether it's because I've started writing a newspaper column and so you remember what you wrote last week and you really note that now you are in a slightly different position from where you were before. even in the space of a week. listen, stop I'll stop flandling around and I'll just tell you straight, shall I ust I still can't make my mind up about Kistara I feel I should apologize to you for that. And I'm not entirely sure why this is. I think it's partly because he does relatively Regularly, something that I find quite impressive. I think the online safety stuff that he's done this week is really powerful, really important. You know he's getting something right when they're lining up lawyers from places like Fort Chan to start whining about how they don't know what they're talking about and they won't be able to do it. I'd rather they tried lads I'd rather they tried. What's the alternative? Just sit there and watch the country crumble? And of course, when you look at things like the Worers' Rights Bill and national living wage legislation, and there's quite a lot there to get your teeth into. We can all list the U turns, we can all list the reverse ferrets. we can all argue about whether that was evidence of somebody listening and then changing their minds, or whether as is my opinion, it was evidence of people not having really done the working out and the calculations before they announced to the sum or the results I still and I mean, is this a good thing or a bad thing Is it a good thing or a bad thing And then of course, you've got this curious affection, affinity for stability You know, the idea that two years into a premiership is ridiculously early to be calling time on it or concluding that it's a complete failure And then you've got the thing that I think we touched on yesterday with that absolutely insane but incredibly widespread story. about Kpeat the arsonists who set fire to KS arrmour's F a home being unpaid rent boys angry over their outstanding bills. you know, I don't know that I'm ever going to get over that story I've written about it a bit in today's I newewspaper, if you want to have a look at where I am, because I can't believe that that has happened to our country. Try explaining that to somebody who hasn't been paying attention We did it a bit yesterday. Try explaining that line there that I just said that there is a widespread conviction shhared by people whose names you know, people who used to be vaguely respectable, well maybe not respectable, but people who used to have proper jobs shhared by people whose names you know There is a widespread conviction Kia Starerss arson attackers Well Unhappy male prostitutes cross that he hadn't paid for their services Eeta in particular, but other social media as well have become such Insane. places now, that that doesn't just get traction. It's halfway aroundound the world before the truth has got its trousers on. Do you know, occasionally a story comes along that I feel talk about forever. A story comes along that so completely encapsulates craziness that we've been living through now for ten years, almost to the day, the anniversaries next week, the absolute craziness that we have been forced to live through I find myself thinking we're never going to find a better example than this We are never going to find a better example than this It's absolutely incredible that people you know believe because they saw it on Socials, peopleople, you know, believe that they that Kiss Ama was targeted by male prostitutes he hadn't paid. You see what Iant Anway, that's not even what the topic is today. It's just a mark of how mad everything has become. So a story like that comes along And you begin to understand or you begin to appreciate prerecisely what it is that he is going through And then you remember we'll do a misedinformation later in the programe about the ponies on Dartmoor. That is one of the biggest piles of horse manure. You see what I did there. It's one of the biggest piles of horse manure that I've ever seen in the British media and it's almost everywhere that story. spoiler alert, they won't be a major cull of Dartmore ponies In fact, there won't be any callull that is different to anything that's gone on before. You can take that to the bank if you want and sue me if I'm wrong. So You look at the abuse that he puts up with, the effort I've always been baffled by the personal approval ratings because my major criticism of Kirstammer is that he's been a little bit too woolly. he's been a little bit too Vanilla, if you like, he hasn't u he hasn't He bast enough heads together, he hasn't cracked enough eggs, he hasn't set off enough alarms and yet his personal approval ratings are absolutely dire Where does that come from You know? he got a kicking for buying a field let his disabled mother keep donkeys in it. and now he's getting a kicking over a couple of ponies that doesn't even exist. Do you like these creatures Or do you not like these? make a bloody mind up, will you because if you're really upset about the ponies, you should be giving him a knighthood for look he's already got one for looking after the donkeys. And the madness I guess what I'm saying This is why I'm a bit embarrassed I guess what I'm saying is I can't tell where the madness stops anymore and the story starts How much of the disaffection with ked armor has been carefully cultivated. And listen, I even wonder Whether or not the Labour Party itself disaffected with kstama due to a process of political osmosis whether or not they're looking at all the coverage and they're looking at all the social media activity and they are arriving at a conclusion. I really hope this isn't the case because if it is, I think I'm guilty of it too And they're arriving at the conclusion Kir Starmer is a liability and he's got to go, which is of course the conclusion that has driven Andy Burnham's decision to surrender the Meralty of Manchester and try to become an MP again There's this widespread conviction, which I have been part of. twoo weeks ago, I wrote about how by seeking to pander to reform, Kir Stama had brought all of his current troubles upon himself. and I still think that's true I don't remember a politician about whom I found it so hard to arrive at a proper conclusion and stay there Now, there could be some football ifification involved. I absolutely admit to that. You can't invent a condition and then claim to be immune to it There might be some football ifification involved. It might well be the case. And of course nobody can accuse me of blind loyalty or tribalism with regard to the Labour Party because under the previous leader, you don't need me to tell you what would have happened. If Jeremy Corbyn had ever become Prime Minister, he gave you a little sneak preview by the way in which he is conducting his current operation, which I think is called your party U So there is all the evidence you'll ever need of how fit for power he was. U I can clearly not be accused of footballificification because I was barely wearing a scarf at all under the last Labour leadership. But I do think I do think that the there's a possibility that all the noise All of the Um criticism, not all of the criticism obviously, but He is I suppose to paraphrase is it King Lear I think is Kyia Stama a man more sinned against than sinning When I hear him say that he doesn't think there should be a leadership election, He gives me proper pause. He makes me stop and think, why are we having one which we are almost bound to have Why are we having one I mean It doesn't matter whether you are Ed Milliband or Jeremy Corbyn or Gordon Brown, Tony Blairt was an exception to this rule for reasons that the older we get, the less happy we are with It doesn't matter who you are as the leader of the Labour Party, the usual suspects will come after you Pitchful and As we discussed yesterday, if you're an online presence because you can't get a job in traditional media, you have to say things that are much more obnoxious and much more dishonest than what the people with proper jobs say. So you have to sign up to the Rent Boy conspiracy theory or the Great replacement theory or whatever nonsense it is that you're spouting this week Pone masks give you five G phone masks give you COVID. You have to sign up to that stuff And that's part of the anti care, theyre two tier care It bleeds, doesn't it from the insane social media into the supposedly saner Mainstream media, you just have this. I suppose I'm a little bit worried I'm a little bit worried. about the Jony Mitchell paradigm which we have applied on this programm many times. Two singers have given us Oortunities for radio phones. Marvin Gay with the Imortal line what's going on, something to which I often resort when I'm confused by the current affairs Buffet, what's got But Jonie Mitchell, you don't know what you've got till it's gone. Here he is this morning telling Beth Rigby of Sky News, where he currently stands on this subject I dont think there should be a leadership I think That the last goovernment proved that parties that spend their whole time in leadership elections don't go on to win the next general election. I would also say this that Anie Burnham is in this by election. I want him to win. Our activists, our members are up there campaigning for him. That is a good thing. If he does win, we've immediately got a Manchester Meralty to fight That starts straight away. It's very important to us that we win that. just yes or no, no circumstanance. I'm not going to walk away. I'm going to fight. circumstances you would step. I'm not walking away, I'm going to fight. And you know he wins fight. One of the craziest calls we've ever taken about o, forgive me, a full list of candidates for the Makerfield by election is available at lbc dot co dot u slash candidates. and ideally and hopefully and with your help, that willll be the last time we mention the Makerfield Bialection in the course of this morning. One of the strangest calls I've taken about Kir Starmer goes back to a fellow. Do you remember this? if you were listening? Blok who was at school with him who said his abiding memory of Kerirstam was that he was always fighting 's like proper physical fist fights. He was always fighting. It's funny isn't it? becausecause people who went to school with Nigel Farrich, their abiding memory of him is him marching around the place saying that Hitler was right and that the Jews should all be gassed. The abiding memory of Kistama from the contemporary that rang in was that he was always fighting, I think possibly in defence of his brother Nick, about whom he has spoken subsequently very movingly Can you see what I mean about your pendulum Swinging you here him there insisting that the whole world effectively is against him But he's still fighting. We're supposed to admire, are we? I think we're supposed to admire that sort of spirit. And comparing him to Farage a bit because Farage is currently leading in the national polls, he just never stopps whining. He never exposes himself to scrutiny. He's still hiding from questions about the secret billionaire gift that we know about. God knows how many other secret mult million pound gifts he may have received from billionaires keen to influence future policy. We will probably never know. ill not asking questions about his phone supposedly being hacked by Russian spies because spoiler alert, it wasn't. Still hiding, still whining, still whining, still hiding. That's just all that he does when he's not doing the racism. he's doing the whining and he's doing the hiding. Starber is standing there. Taking punch after punch after punch And of course some from in front of him, from the opposition and some from behind him, from people that are supposed to support him. And I have It's so bizarre that the Prime Minister feels like the underdog in the current climate. and I have I have an underdog issue. I have a problem with underdogs. It always kicks in during the World Cup, but if I'm a neutral I kind of find myself leaning towards the underdog. and even if I'm not a neutral at the beginning of the game, I sort of start rooting for the team that is being put upon and there's something about This week, today, this morning's news, this combination of stories Burnham essentially trying to be all things to all people Leadership battle goossip and Bwhaa ramping up a gear or two. where streeting insisting that he's ready to trigger a battle imminently and Kissarma standing there. calmly resolutely and couourageously is that addverb too far and insisting that he is elected to do a job See, the thing is I actually want you to disagree with me. This is the problem sometimes with my monologues is I set the ball rolling in such a speedy direction that it's quite hard sometimes difficult to remind you that I want you necessarily to kick it back towards me to stay with the football analogies I want you to remind me why A leadership election would be a good idea. Or rather why you want one Why you want one Because here it is Today Wednesday, june seventeenth, twenty twenty six I don't think I do and I know that a month ago I did And that's I don't know. do I apologize to you for that Or do I just remind you that Joel Maynard Kyes never said When the facts change, sir, I change my mind. What do you do Have the facts changed at all? Or is it just the feelings that are leading us down this road? That's the question. and I really want you to answer it. and I don't want I really, really I don't want to put anybody off from ringing in But I don't think I'll have much trouble finding supporters of K Stara, past, present, future support. Well, I may do. I mean, I shouldn't really do this, should I but u'm I can't quite S As clearly as I thought I could a month ago Why are leadership battle by a leadership election. I mean he's played a blinder over Iran, an absolute blinder. When you remember That's the probably the best example. I know it's foreign policy, not domestic What does it take when you've got them all lining up against you You've got almost all of the British media. you're being accused of all sorts of hideous things for not going to war with Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu, who are now, of course, at each other's throats, which is going to be a tricky obstacle to negotiate for people like Dick Littlejohn at The Daily Mail. He thought we should have been all in with Donald Trump and has never been more ashamed to be British than he was when Starmer stood firm. Kemy Badenock and Nigel Farrch both insisting. that we should be doing everything we can to support them and then pathetically reverse fertting and claiming, no, I didn't mean we should actually do anything. I just meant we should cheer really loudly And Snarmer got that right. And of course there's people on the left who are upset that He hasn't sort of cut off all contact with Israel and the United States of America forever. but he has in the terms of what is feasibible diplomatically, he's played an absolute blinder When everybody else was attacking him, everybody was attackking I don't know that I want a leadership election, but I really want to know what you think and why? And that's the question You can't answer it without having strong opinions or strongish opinion. Well can I say that now when I've just admitted that my opinion is spinning like a weather vane I want to know whether you want another leadership election Okay, that is question number one. And then of course I want to know why or why not? zero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three Partly because of what happened yesterday and that reminder from the Rent Boy conspiracy theory of the absolute insanity that he's having to deal with and the almost certain knowledge that some of that has seeped into sensible sane people. Not the conspiracy theory itself, but the epic effort that Russian agents and actual Russian agents, according to Panorama the other night Members of Nigel Far's party who were being paid by Kremlin stooges, but the real deal, the sort of sons of Russian diplomats are desperate to destroy this man And that makes me wonder two things. It makes me wonder why are they so desperate to destroy him? And of course instability is part of the answer But there must be more to it than that. And it makes me wonder whether we should actually be sticking up for him a bit more If the Russians are coming for you I would like to think I'd have your back You know And yet they're coming for our Prime Minister That's not an opinion, that's counting And we're saying o let's toss him on the scrap heat. Let's replace him. let's. Let's have another one. What do you think So it's a question about the leadership election and it's also a question about K Starma. And it is, as ever on this program, also, whatever question you want it to be. It's ten twenty four. zero three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three It's ten twenty six. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. and the question is relatively straightforward, but of course your answers can be as complex or as complicated as you want West Streeting has said he would be prepared to trigger a Labour leadership contest to replace Serkiia Starmer as Prime Minister as early as Next week Andy Burdham has clearly set his sights upon the top job and Kir Starmer has made it pretty clear that he has absolutely no intention of either stepping aside or allowing a peaceful transfer of power. Partly, I think because he has unfinished business and two years into a premiership is objectively a little bit soon to be Um changing there changing the leader A little bit soon, not too soon, but quite soon And I also I can't help worrying that it means that the Labour Party becomes a sort of similacrum of the Tory nonsense that we've seen. How many Tory prime ministers did we have between twenty sixteen and twenty twenty four. It's easy to forget. you can sort of forget about Liz Tps, Well I wish we could all forget about Liz Ts, but you can So to forget about Teresa May oddly, because I suppose she was relatively innocuous. You forget We can't forget about anyway, I'm talking too much. Rob's in Penrith. Rob, what do you want to say? What are you want Good morning, Jay. How How are you? How are you? Oh good, mate. I'm a little bit disturbed by my lack of certainty on this, but I'm sure you're about to fix that Well everyverybody I speak to has contempt for Koskama unfortunately. But I can't tell you why They well They don't like his record. U whichich big? Well mainly comes up again and again is the attempts to remove the winter fuel allowance And of course, the reverse ferret on allowances for the disabled U So they did what so he did what they wanted Well, they did, but ye the point is it's But they hold him in contempt for doing what they wanted for the uncertainty. I think the main thing is So what would I mean, I amm going to badge you a bit. What do you think they would hold him in if he had carried on with the policies that they hated Because to my mind, that makes them idiots roong What do you think they would hold him in if he had carried on with the policies that they hated instead of doing what they wanted? Well because contempt iss a big word. I'll shut up now. You tell me Well, I think the thing is that he's been subjected to a process of vilification by the press That's the first. Well it's worked on your mate. I mean If you look at the Daily mail D doesn't go by I know all this, but I'm going to push you back to the question of what would your friends hold him in if he has persisted with policies they hate rather than done what they want They're not my friends. people You said everyone I talk to. So that must include your friends. Well I'm talking about people I talk to casually on the on that basis Yeah. My friends I don't know. Probably we think that a change would be necessary at this stage And I can tell you why. Go on He's lost the country He hasn't capacity to impress or to inspire And the problem is that if we persist with him, What's going to happen is Farage is going to be let in. and I'm more concerned about that than anything else. And if you could prove in a sentence that that prospect would diminish in the event of a change of leadership at the top of the Labour Party, I'd be four square behind you. But you can't and the polling oddly, when you dig into it, as opposed to the who would you vote for in a general election. But if you dig into labour led by X versus reform led by Y. St pretty well. He would win according to on that metric, which is a different polling question from The sort of a blind question of which party do you currently prefer or which party do you currently want to lead a general election? I don't know and I'm not going to bully you, but I'm sick of people telling me about the winter fuel allowance or the disability benefits. He did what you wanted He literally did what he wanted. A lot of people wish that he hadn't, wished that he'd stuck to his guns, raaised some money that could now be spent on defence. as Russian ships are opening fire on British citizens in the channel. But he did what he wanted. I mean, it's got a touch of the Brexits to it. or a touch of the Cbins to it. It's like, you know, oh yeah, he's done what I want to, but I still hate him And what do you want from the man? He listened to you, he changed course, he gave you what you wanted, but you still hold him in contempt. That's just stupid. That's right wing. That's what right wingers do to left wingers. It's not what left wingers do to left wingers pursuit of ideological purity, I don't know I'm going to talk myself into being a bloody cheerleader again, a month ago I was calling for him to go. It's ten thirty one. Tom Nickllis has your headline You know the thing that really frustrates me and I mean this I mean this motion shly The thing that really frustrates me is and I think the reason it frustrates me so much is I don't know if I can argue with it It's this Kiss armour has been appallingly treated, not least by the right wing media, but also ca as we really discovered yesterday, by the insane sewer of social media But it has worked so effectively that we have to get rid of him S see, I think I've got a few people making that argument in the in the old inbox. and it breaks my heart because I don't know if I can here you go. This is put brilliantly by Davy. I think we have to, James. Unfortunately, I have to concede that the mad right wing press have assassinated Starmer's character to the point that even reasonable sensible people think less of him. And then in order to keep the left in power at the next election, we need a clean skin in For example, Andy Burnham, And Burnham is much more nimble. to put up a fight against the Dick Little Johns of this world And again, Brendan writes, I think the impetus to remove Kiss armour is too great now to be reversed. However, I don't think it will be long before numerous pundits starts saying he was, in fact, one of the best labour prrime miniss of the last century And James says, you big fan thank you. You rocked me then, but I've given my head a wobubble Your show is a chamber of decency, James, but the rest of the media isn't. Snarmer has been absolutely unfairly shafted, so we have to have a new leader I'm very sorry to say it, but it's too late for Starmer. That's I mean I tend not to lose my temper anymore Oh, mayaybe you missed the days when I did, but that's the thing where my blood starts boiling. I can't argue with any of these messages, messagers and I don't particularly want to but what have we allowed to happen to us? And we're saying that online lies whether it's the relatively or the previously mild seeming nonsense about two tier. and that's not confined to online. There's plenty of people proper jobs who will be using that phrase just like they used to use Trump derangement syndrome. Do you remember when that was a popular phrase? being used by idiots who didn't understand anything and ignored all the people that did. Same with two tierer or two tier this, two tier that. It's bonkers But it has been so successful that we need to get rid of the target And that is the thing That's awful, right? If that's your position and it might end up being my I can't argue with the success of the Hit job. We can't argue with the success of the hit job so we've got to have another guy and then they'll just start attacking him Rinson and repeat Thestara does. And I don't have great confidence in my own opinions at the moment because it's so confusing and so strange. but Stalmer does actually represent and so many things a kind of bloody mindedness that we need. And then on other things he's moved with the wind, he's moved with the people. I mean, imagine old Robin Penrith Everyone he talks to hates Starmer because he's done what they wanted He how have we ended up being those people Why do you hate? Beuse he's done. And then of course from the other side of politics, Oh, I can't believe how much of a shill for Israeli is after you any idea How vile Benjamin Netanyahu has been both personally and politically about our Prime Minister Never mind Donald Trump, but Benjamin Netanyahu has spoken about K Stama in the most outrageous of terms, particularly When referring to a man who is married to a Jew and raising his children, in the faith as far as I'm aware. Netanyahu talking about him in horror. Why would Benjamin Netanyahu have such a problem with Kursed Armor if Kured Armor was doing the bidding of Benjamin Netanyahu's Israel? Did people ever stop and think about this stuff? And maybe the effort put in online to aligning him with vicious lies and ridiculous lies that sorry, I said yesterday, should we be calling these people idiots If you believe that Kirst Aarmer's house was set on fire becausecause he hadn't paid male prostitutes for their services. I don't know that Ididiot is too kind a word for you I need a new word. I need to invent a word to describe what you are I need Malcolm Tucker on the case albeit that Ocom would have a f of the vapors. ain't how stupid do you have to be to believe this stuff So on one side of politics, you've got those absolute Cretts And on the other, you've got the people saying, Oh, I think he's got to go because none of the people I've spoken to can forgive him for doing what they wanted With regards to the so called U turns or the reverse, I don't know. Maybe I'm talking myself into a Talking myself into a tizzy. Charlie's in Wilton on terms, Charlie, administer the salts, will you I need to calm down. Hi yeah. how are you doing? you well? Oh good, Chary, what's going on Yeah, no, look, I think my point of view on'm twenty three and the cost of living crisis and housing and everything is extremely hard, but I think at the moment, we're on a very dangerous level when it comes to the economy and what's going on in the world. And I think to be honest, I think Kia is a very strong minded person and leader. And I think if we switch leaders at this point we could be on the verge of an economic crash and a lot more instability. look what happened last time? the party in power switch leaders. I'm not suggesting they should have hun ono Boris Johnson, but they gave Liz Truss a go. and I don't think anyone's going to compare Andy Burnham to Liz Truss, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. if God forbid, Boris Johnson and Liz Truss were everver to breed. the result would look a lot like Nigel Farage And that should be a prospect that doesn't but should frighten absolutely everybody in this country, particularly people who consider themselves to be patriotic. Here's the thing though, Charlie And I don't know whether you can help me with this We talk about him being strong minded and I agree. I just use the phrase bloody minded, which is a sort of synonym And yet, of course on his List. of governmental actions, there are three or four relatively big tickets upon which he didn't stick to his guns You know, if it happens once or twice, you could probably argue that it's evidence of listening and changing calls accordingly and just quieten the voices that are saying, well, why didn't he work all this stuff out before he flipping announced it and tried to make it into law? So was simultaneously praising his strong mindedness while criticizing his Qerulousness is failure to stick to his own guns. It's hard to hold both positions at the same time, but I sort of think we both do Yeah, I agree with you. It wouldd be lovely if we lived in a dream world where politicians did exactly what they said they were going to do. but we know that that's just not the world we live in And I think the world we live in, we have to be very careful at the moment with all that's going SpaceX are going and the oil markets and everything like that. We need someone in power who is strong who it's just going to be there throughout the term. Stands up we keep We' the most powerful powerful people on the planet when they happen to be deranged idiots, you know this extraordinary tightrope walk of keeping Trump sweet and then refusing to do what Trump wants and then absolutely inviting the vicious, vituperative attacks of Benjamin Netanyahu while then getting attacked at home for being too cozy or too friendly to Israel. The poor man can't win, whatever he does He's getting attacked by somebody and yet Like you, there's a growing sense inside me that I've had it for about a month actually. I think I've had it ever since I wrote that the attempts to pander to reform and that's gone quiet now. I know some of Shabarah Ma Mon's policies go further to the right than Even the Tories did, but the That oververton window shattered and battle over the benefits of immigration has been lost. I think it was lost before he came into government. brereaks my heart to say this. But that doesn't even seem to be informing much criticism of Stara or of this government anymore. And it's highly unlikely that Shabana Mahmouud won't have a role in any future cabinets led by future leaders. So for about a month now, I've just found myself thinking Are we all are we all actually now under the spell of the idiots We're under the spell of the people who've been telling us for two years that K Stareter is absolutely awful without really being able to tell us why. Because when you ask them why What they say It all gets a bit Brexity. Oh, he's far too cozy with his Benjamin Netanyu who hates him. Oh he's reverse ferted. Did you like what happened at the end of the U turn? Yes, I did actually. That's exactly what I wanted all along. How would that So Yeah ye Either I'm going mad or the country is. Martin is in Rousy on the Orkneys. Martin, what would you like to say ood morning, James. The a couple of messages you read out before have pretty much nailed it when they said there's no option for a change now because there is already a momentum built up pretty much by social media memes, TikTok face. Yeah I mean it's partly that. But you've also got I mean, I know they matter a lot less than they used to, but you've got the daily telegraph, you've got the Daily exppress. Absolutely. Someone bought Nigel Farage a television station U That's not the bloke that secretly gave him five million pounds. That's a different billionaire. You've got the you've got the daily mail, you've got the you've got, you know, every I mean, pretty much the entire media accept me Absolutely. But you've also got power and interest and money on every single level investing in an anti stara rhetoric. I communicate with a lot of my former military friends via social media unfortunately So many of them just come out with the same old nonsense. They say Starmer is a traitor, Starmer hates Britain. Some of them even say Starmer is a domestic terrorist. And they're just repeating rubbish that they read online. And when I challenge them about it, they never ever have any quality other than I don't like Starmer. I hate him. he's in absolute and then he has a whole line of explusiveiz isn't it? no content whatsoever. But in Stalmer's case, I want him to stay. I don't think we should have a leadership election because we need stability and he is a stable mature, considerate individual, he's just got to do better at getting his cabinet to communicate the good work that they do. Yeah, I mean I don't think I'd put much money on him getting through the current mess, but I wonder if he did, it would actually strengthen his position and make him a little bit more impregnable, but that's probably fancy. I don't think he'll get through either unfortunately. I think you're absolutely right. The deal is done But that just shows you the state of politics that we've got across the world where power and I mean, he has messed up. It's not it's not like we're talking about a paragon of political virtue. I mean, we might be. I think we are talking about a man more sinned against than sinning, but he's dropped some fairly large clangers. Morgan McSweeney seems to have been a dismal appointment and let's not even mention Peter Mandelson, despite the fact that everybody who with twenty twenty hindsight condemned the appointment was cheering it to the rafters when it actually happened. He's put a lot of feet wrong. But of course, every politician does or would, what you haven't got with Stalmer is a sort of fourth estate dedicated to pretending that he's not a morally bankrupt delinquents. If you think about the kind of coverage, Boris Johnson ceased to be Prime Minister in the most disgraceful of circumstances and immediately got hired by the Daily Mail as a half a million pound a year colnist. mean it's absolutely bonkers when you break it down like that. That's the problem, isn't it? that's the country that we live in and we'll never know how much of the abuse of starma is built upon lies, whether online or offline and how much of it is built upon genuine unhappiness or genuine? I mean, it breaks my heart to hear about military veterans who are doing the work of our enemies. You learn about the almost well, not completely proven, but the role of a twenty three year old Russian diplomat in the Rent Boy conspiracy theory and in the recruitment the alleged role of a twenty three year old Russian diplomat whose father has got connections at the very highest levels in the Kremlin And his alleged recruitment of the peopleople who set fire to Kir Starmer's house. Y old mates, your old military mates are on their side when it comes to this part of the national conversation. They are doing the bidding of the Kremlin And unlike Nigel Farrag's mate, Nathan Gill Nobody needed to pay them It's ten forty seven ten fifty one is the time. and mean you can't argue with the fact that he gets it from absolutely every angle. He gets attacked for having abandoned Israel, He gets attacked for being in bed with Benjamin Netanyahu, he gets attacked for announcing policies that people don't like and then he gets attacked for unannouncing them, sometimes by the same people people Hold him guy can't get past that call of from Penrith. They hold him in contempt because they did what he did what they wanted After announcing something that they didn't like, he changed course. and now they really hate him I mean what can you do? And that is going to be the takeaway, isn't it? At eleven o'clock today? It's going to be that yeah, it's largely, if not entirely unfair, concocted and confected, It's worked, so now we have to get rid of him What do you think that does for the next time So what you actually want is someone who seems to be relatively untroubled by it and somebody who it refuses to be bent by it or refuses to bow to it and you end up thinking, well, Kiss Am's my man. And then you end up remembering that he does bow a lot and he does blow in the wind and it does change course But is there an argument for the things he changes course on, being measurably different from the things that he doesn't change. I don't even know anymore. And that's why I began the programe this morning with an apology. My old mate Jones the engineer, who is now Jones the pilot, if you want to see him on YouTube flying planes. He said something. You know, like what was it like? you know when u I've told you that story a million times. a lad I was at school with who we all mocked for asking a stupid question, and with every passing year I realised that was the only question to ask, the only question to ask. Jones once said to me So he'd watched one of the leadership debates on the tey And he didn't know whether he was coming or going because the audience wasn't allowed to clap. or cheer. so he never knew whether anyone had made a good point or not. And I laughed at him. I mean, he told me it as a self depreating funny joke and I joined in, but it haunts me that observation I think I'm slightly immune to it myself because the amount of effort I put into getting across the news and getting across the stories. When you say to someone, whyy do you hate Kir Starma so much? They come out with nonsense. about two tier policing and the Fabian society Or they claim that he is an Israel Sil, while Benjamin Netanyahu is the chairman of the anti Kirstara they just you ask why do you hate Kist ararma? The answer is and of course people never admit this, which is why it's all gone a bit Brexit Why do you hate KSnamic? Because I've been told to. It's really worked It Its succeeded. And whether you like him or not, if it really has succeeded, then you've got to get rid of him. But what do you think will happen next Discovered this week that the recruitment of people to set fire to his house and the online lies about them being unhappy unpaid prostitutes can be tracked almost certainly all the way back to the Kremlin And yet you've got military veterans convinced that he's a traitor, starmer. when in fact they are doing the bidding of people that wish our country harm I've written about this morning in the eye because it starts for me with the five G mass, or the great replacement theory. whatever it might be, these online madnesses that then bleed into real life are all designed to undermine our democracy and to destabilise our country And if you want to see the people that the Kremlin want in power Well, just ask them who their favorite politician is And I'll tell you. or ask them who the politician they admire most is, and they will tell you Nigel Farrech,' tell you that Vladimir Putin is the politician he admires the most, well then claiming and being allowed by the mail on Sunday to Fleet absolute Boulderash about the Russians hacking his phone. Couldn't make it up, could you ten fifty five is the time. Max is in Molly Bone, Max, what would you like to say , James, How are you Thankks for having me on I just think Starmer did himself, I think way too much damage probably right at the beginning where he turned out to be more of a disciplinarian than a leader The way he was just continually purging the left and disciplining people and expelling them from the partthy and suspending their whips when they were, you know, sort of on the side of maybe more pensions or whatever. And I just He had this incredible inability to read a room and then just dig his heels in after not having read it. And then I think he's over reliance on Morgan McSweeney for all that time ed him you know whether it's true or not. I think showed him to be something that really couldn't make his own decisions. And I think I'll say his Gaza stan. goes the pendulum again because that inability to make his own decisions, I think is a very hard criticism to resist And you know, you know and you know, you know what is probably fundamentally a decent man in this short amount of time has actually made himself be more hated than Boris Johnson ever was, which is not for the reasons that you cite. They're not reasons to hate someone. No No,'s not it's not like his address was the site of more COVID law breaches than any other address in the country. It's not like he has blood of British people on his hands because he couldn't make his mind up with regards to lockdowns and and responses. It's not like he has lied every single day of his life to everybody from his wives right through to his colleague But I I just think the disappointment that that people felt in him after what they were expecting after the fourteen years of what we had and what was realistic. I'm part of That turned around and I just think disappointed with there were just people suddenly started thinking, well, this isn't really what we voted for. I mean, I think I was one of those people. I think I' probably somewhere inside. I still am, but it makes me wonder whether I'm Incredibly naive. What did we expect him to do? Well, we expected him to do better. I don't think anybody expected him to turn the economy aroundound and rejoin the European Union and excise the legacies of austerity and Liz Truss and Boris Johnson and put Donald Trump in his box. I don't think anybody could realistically have expected him to do all that in a week or even in two years We just hoped for better. Is that a reason to get rid of someone back? Well, I think' I think his initial sort of disciplinarary approach I think he had to do that. I mean I don'tably hate it in the party. I don't think he had any choice. If people are going to defy the whip, they have to be disciplined. You're making me sound like a dominateatrix now, but people If people defy the whip and then you have to get the because otherwise everything falls apart But that would define the whip out of decency more than out of here ago. That was the problem. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe a better backroom operation so that people could have been persuaded to just maybe keep their keep their powder dry until we've been in the power for a little bit longer. Let's not start the infighting and the internissine warfare on day two. But of course they did. and Starmer responded by trying to stamp it out. And as you say, for an awful lot of people That looks a little bit like breaking a butterfly on a wheel. Oh boy and finally, Craig in Oxford, Craig, what would you like to say I'm not really in favor of StarMa hanging on to power. I think that he's quite similar to Joe Biden in the run up to the last U. S. election Biden was claiming that because he'd won the previous one, that he was the only person who could defeat Donald Trump. Yeah. He hang on until he was so unpopular in his own party he had to step down. It was more I think to do with his mental acuity than anything else, wasn't it? And I mean there's elements of your analysis that work as a parallel.en pretty close to to an exceptional example because of his mental decline Oh absolutely. I'm not claiming that Kirara has dementia or anything can a decline like that. I'm claiming that we pick that up don exactly. We could unchick wbox or maybe the Daily mail have that as a byline tomorrow. who knows? O' Brian Cner claims Kara has dementia. I've speak medical records. No Not at all, just to be clear I think the parallel is it's the hubris of the leader who won one election, believing they're the only person that can win the next one. their own party deciding to oust them, them clinging onto power, clinging onto power. And whether it was George Clooney or whoever that convinced me had to step down, the next leader didn't have enough time And I think if you look at Starmer's approval ratings, the idea that I'm the only person that can win the next election is ludicrous So I'm not saying that Andy Burnhw would or Angel Lorainna would, or Wear Streetingwood, but the idea that Starmer is the one. I haven't heard him say that, Graay. Kryptonite. has? Has he said not doubting that I mean, I don't have a quote in front of me, but I'm quite sure that when they first were you know, touting, you know, I think streeting was maybe the first one to break cover He was like, And the other thing that he did, if you remember the Gorton and Denton by election is that his whole electoral calculus appears to be we're the only ones that can beat reform So window is shifted further and further right. They're then lost to the greens. And then his new calculus is, we've got dangerous radicals and extremists to the left and the right and we're the only sort of moderates in the middle. just find I don't know. seems like It's like a game of chess where you're at that position whereby all your moveves are like you're just postponing checkmate. Yeah. And the best case scenario is a very unlikely stalemate And you also, you know, I don't know whether you intended this, but you remind us that the two party system is both over and not fit for purpose exactly. because someone is going to have to reach out someone in Labour is going to have to reach out to the Lib Dams or the greens and The Tories at some point are probably going to have to reach out to reform. The most obvious coalition would be reform and the new L I get so confused Relay. Who was reclaim restore Do it restore, reform and restore, but not reclaim. So you reach out to restore, but there's a personality clash there between two pes and a pod Nigel Farrit and Rupert Lowe, which probably rules out any prospect of a pC despite the fact that privately, I suspect they agree about absolutely everything except how awful the other one is. It's eleven o children, running, And that's it, isn't it? K Sammer was supposed to be a grown up and at the end of that hour I still think he is And it's Joni Mitchell time Six minutes after eleven is the time. You're listening to James O'Ben on LBC. Is what's the word that I'm looking for? I just taken it away from the last hour. I've got a feeling there's a word that's got Max in it, MAX, notot Max in Marley Bone who rang in the last hour. But like the word where everything, you have to be one hundred percent. It's a single word. I'm not looking for zero sum game or anything like that, but you have to be A form it's like purity, political purity. Is there a word for that? like maximalization or something? Because I think that's probably where we are you know, if you've ever said anything negative about so and so, then you can't possibly be tolerated. You must be the enemy, whereas in fact you're on the same side. You might want the same prime Minister or at least the same party to be in power but you once criticized him and you once criticised them. I don't know. is it called maximalist? Maximalist? Is that the word? Maximalism? Yeah, I think that's the word that I'm looking for. I told you it had max in it. That's the problem It's mad, isn't it? when you think that almost all of the countries ill, not almost all, but the countries descent into madness was started by a vote that was fifty two to forty eight And one of the elements of the subsequent madness is maximalism two to forty eight. It's about as close as it can be slightly under fifty two and slightly over forty eight if you really want to dig into it. and And yet one of the consequences of that is that now you've got to be either one hundred percent for something or someone or one hundred percent against it And and here we are. You know H we are Maximalism. The age I might write that down actually. I've got to write a column every week now, so and a book The Age of Maximalism You'll always be my first love though, donon't worry. Seven minutes after eleven and because you are my first love, you will probably be able to guess the subject to which I want to turn your attention next. Well mean But you know what the problem is with the question that I would quite like to ask you is I think I would be overwhelmed by naughty people I think if I said to you, what was the first thing you thought when you learned that Prince George the next king after the next one been well. was going to go to Eton And if I then get bombarded with people saying I thought I couldn't give a stuff, James thenen I don't have a show Do you see what I mean You have to have something interesting to say in order for me to make an interesting program in much the same way that if I have nothing interesting to say, you would be perfectly entitled to go off and do something less boring instead But if I say to you, what was the first thought you had When you learned yesterday, I think it was, that Prince George And you know, I wish I could think of a question one day that would allow us to do a phone in about why we call people prints Prince George is going to Eton should I should I trust you? So I give you the benefit of the doubt? and ask you what the first thought you had and obviously, this program being this program, why There are many, many places where you can just say what? For example, I hate K Stama and not be asked why. but the interesting stuff happens when you are asked why. Why Oh, because u Well he doesn't pay his rent boys. Because he's two tear. Why do you think that? What does that mean I see why I've started saying everything's gone a bit Brexit. I've got a horrible feeling that is in the very real process of becoming a new catchphrase. Everything's gone a bit Brexit. But what was the first thing you thought when you heard that Prince George was going to Atan, and why did you think it Go on then, I'll put that on the board. It's only nine past eleven so it's probably another forty seven minutes of monologue before you actually have to ring in, but if you want to book your place early What was the first thing you thought and why Oh, three, four, five, sixzero six zero nine, seven three. because I thought Oh, that's a shame And you are perfectly entitled to ask me why. And I think I thought, o, that's a shame because It will mean that he is completely detached and deliberately detached from or he will find it much, much harder ever to understand the lives and concerns of ordinary people Going to a school like Eaton doesn't mean you can never understand the lives and concerns of ordinary people. For example, he could do a job like this for twenty years and then he would be absolutely A overcome with the lives and concerns of or whatever we mean by ordinary people We're living in an age where some really unpleasant people use it to mean racist. Oh, it's concerns of ordinary people. No, it's not I don't even know what an ordinary person is, but by ordinary in this context I mean someone who didn't go to Eaton spepecifically in someone who didn't go to public school more generally. I think it's a shame for a future king to have spent his formative years in one of the most rareified and privileged environments on the planet. I just think it's a shame. I don't know that they have much choice. I suspect that Charles is years at Gordonstone were incredibly character forming but not necessarily in a good way. The poor lad had an absolutely miserable time. bullied, beaten up, I think quite regularly, absolutely hated it. you know that I used to be an even bigger idiot than I am now and I was the kind of person who said, Well I think it did him a power of good You know, I think that being utterly brutalized thousands of hundreds of miles away from home between the ages of thirteen and eighteen clearly contributed to the character of the man. and look, what a great character the man. I mean, good God You send your own children if you want Let'sop praising the The the fate of others So I don't know that they had much choice. The thing you can say about Eaton is that oddly to most people He won't actually stand out that much when he's there. I mean, there are probably some people who think they're posher than him That's what the Queen onece said about Margaret Thatcher. Did you know that? She reportedly the Queen onece said about Margaret that she's far too grand for the likes of us. I hope it's true because it's a lovely line. You know, I find class enduringly fascinating and nothing entrenches class in this country more than not private education in and of itself, but public school educations in particular, in particular. just mean that nothing ever changes You know, the ruling class how many prime M ministers went to that single school? It twenty. twenty prime ministers, including two of the last four. twentyenty t the last t the last six, I told you it was easy to forget Liz Truss and Tason M Johnson and Cameron both went there The u the way that these schools entrench unquestioned privilege and unquestioned entitlement seems to me to be a problem, seems to me to be a danger But it works, you see It works. It creates people I mean, what would you be like as king? What would you do if you were king? Don't answer that question by ringing in. but you probably would spend an awful lot of your time worrying that you shouldn't be king, right This I think might be part of where Charles the thing is, he had so long to get ready for the idea that he'd overcome all of those doubts and reservations. But generally speaking, you want your king. If you're an ordinary person, if you are a subject and we all are, spoiler alert then you would probably spend your entire life unless you were a sociopath worrying that you weren't actually worthy of being king If you go to a school like Eaton, you never have those problems Not only do you think that you are entirely worthy of being king, you also have ten people in your class who think that they should be Prime Minister. one or two of whom probably will be one day So I don't know, it's about entitlement. It's about privilege and it's about whether or not it's I mean, they're great I wish everyone could have an entitlement and privilege But of course you can't because if everybody had entitlement and privilegge, they wouldn't be entitlements and privileges. They'd be the normal ordinary experience And someone else would have to invent new entitlements and privileges in order to feel a little bit better and a little bit superior So ring in on that one. If you ring in now, you'll get on first. zero three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three. What did you think when It was announced that Prince George is going to Eton College. And now comes the divide, the great class divide. So Eleanor and I who work together every day like like hinge and brackets We are all like u Tom and Jerry No, more like Laurel and Hardy, I think I don't know which is which. But Eleanor did not go to private school and like an awful lot of people who didn't go to private school has a kind of fascination with the weirdness of it And I did go to public school. and like some, but not most people who went to public school, I have a kind of fascination with what I got from it that I can't see what I got from it that I don't know. So if this was the Eleanor show, she would be asking about what is going to happen to the boy at Eton for good or for ill U peopleeople who haven't been to schools like that will never understand. Whereas because it's the James O'Brien showow, I would be more minded to ask What is going to happen to him that he won't notice And in some ways, it's the same question And it's part of your answer to the question of what you thought when It was announced that he was going to go to Eats in Coege I Can you have a conversation about a king without talking about privilege and entitlement? I mean it's a system built entirely on privilege and entitlement. If we didn't fetishize privilege and entitlement in this country, we wouldn't have a king I think that goes without saying we wouldn't have an aristocracy. We would have either chopped their heads off or consigned them to oblivion centuries ago, like the French tried to. And yet there's something about this spepeaks to me There's something about this. So my gut reaction to this announcement was, o what a shame, what a missed opportunity But where else could he have gone seend them to a minor public school and that minor public school automatically becomes a major public school It's a pretty grim phrase minor public school, but if you growrew up in my world, it's completely normal. You probably don't even know what it means. Minor public school was very chippy. like Nigel Farrage. They send him to a minor public school It becomes a major public school. The waiting list will be full of Americans by tea timee tomorrow. and Chinese and Chinese people at my old school are all over the year registration because it's an attempt. So I'm not even sure what I'm asking. just that weird sense of disappointment when it was announced And a question about what what you thought zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. But here is, okay, we're going to go with Eleanor on this one and it means that one half of the conversation is going to be confined to people who either went to Eton or went to public school. Do you know what Jilly Cooper said about my school You probably get the quote correct and share it with you completely. But I'll try and find it actually, but I'll paraphrase it first. U Jillny Cooper And good grief has there been a better television program in a decade than rivals, I absolutely love it. But Jilly Cooper said that people who went to my school were the only people in the country who looked down on people who went to Eton. I don't know quite where that came from and I don't think that it's necessarily true But it just gives you an indication of the sort of class structure that you are either in Yeah Not in People from Een look down on people who go to harrow and people from Amplefalls look down on everybody. She wrote in a book called I Kid you N not Class Its brilliant b She was also fascinated by you have to be. If you love this country, And you care about it, you have to be fascinated by class. You can't understand this country if you don't understand class So Well what is going to happen to this boy wouldn't happen if he went to a normal school ero three, four, five, six zo sixzo nine seven three. What is going to happen to this boy? that would not happen if he went to a different school. The first element of that conversation is boarding. inccreasingly unfashionable, increasingly unpopular. What is going to happen to this boy? that would not happen to him Let us work on the presumption that he has a functional and loving family. I have no reason to think that he doesn't The bestest place to be if you have a functional and loving family is in the bosom of your functional and loving family This boy will not be. I know they're only around the corner, especially if they're at Windsor But he won't be sleeping at home every night What is going to happen to this boy that wouldn't happen if he went to a normal school Oho three, four, five, six zero six zero nine seven three and And what did you think when you heard, when you learned that he was going to go to Um to Eton College. I think the most rareified and privileged environment in which a teenage boy can live. Even more oddly than living in a Middle Etern palace or a potentates a palace, because you are surrounded by people who also feel that they were born to rule anyway, I find this fascinating even if you don't, so It's a good job it's my show. Its eleven twenty two. How big is the Gulf? I mean, can you only see it from one side This is what Eleanor and I do talk about quite a lot. Can you only see it from one side? You look at someone who went to a school like this where Prince George is going and you see something they can't see big is the goulf. People talk a lot about confidence, you know, and I often have to stop myself from responding by saying, yeah, of course You pay sixty thousand pounds a year to be taught that you are born to rule, you're probably going to generate some confidence. I don't know that that's much help to a kid growing up in relative poverty in the middle of nowhere tell them they need to be more confident. Anyway, I don't know. I'm just talking about what you felt? Your response to the news that the The future king is going to Eton College in this great egalitarian age And what is going to happen to the lad there that wouldn't happen to him if he went to a normal school? Rob's in Bournemouth, Rob, What have you got James, good morning to you. I think this is a really fascinating topic. your first topic. Well. It was how How do I feel? Andw the answer is disappointed, notot surprised but disappointed. For me, so cards on the table, I am not anti monarchy. I would describe myself as moderately pro royal. You could describe that. The optics So the royal families vulnerable at the moment, and they're vulnerable to the lived experiences of the masses I'm not suggesting that the future king should go to a comprehensive in in a city But I do think that going to a school such as Eaton detaches you slightly. and this is not a binary outcome. It's not that you can't have any empathy with people who perhaps are living in deprived areas, but it does detach you and it's how it looks And perception for the Royal familyam is really important for the next generation because it's going to massively impact popularity and frankly, popularity is important to the institution And that's kind of how I feel and how I see it. So it's a really interesting one. There's two issues here, as you've highlighted rather well. There's the sort of princial one or the moral one and then there's the logistical one becausecause we can't glibly Dismiss the prospect of him going somewhere else. We have to actually genuinely speculate on where else he could have gone. So what would have made you happier about the moral or the principlal dimension in terms of the logistical one? Where else would he have gone? The logistical one is an interesting one, isn't it? Because there's undeniably a security aspect now they will have this reasonably well sewn up by virtue of the fact that Harry I guess and no. I mean they've got knife arches at most quite a lot of inner city London schools. The security there is going to knock Eaton into a cocked hat. So I think they would be safe at some of the roughest schools in the country. I think you might be right. I think you might be right. But I wondered whether they would have chosen to have diluted it because of course, you know, private schools are not one entity that this is a home This is a heterogeneous group, isn' it? You've got, you know, you've got the likes of Marborough College through to Bm of Collegiate schoolchool through to Ethon Yeah. and actually they're not the same. And the optics would have perhaps been slightly more favorable if, for example, they'd had chosen something like Mor for College. If you see what I mean? That' where his mum went actually, maybe. I could have got that wrong. But then they would say they did. Th I think people would say well, they're just, I mean, it's patronizing. They're treating us like mugs, of course. They're trying to protect is it that College really going to give you more empathy for ordinary people than Eton College. Sometimes these schools are chippier It's only never doubt their place in the world. No, but I mean your own lived experiences shape how you see the world And I mean, look, I'm forty years old. I went to a comprehensive in Kent and I was a product of that new labour generation where I got to go to a really good university. And I guess that is social mobility and I guess that would happen went to your school? What would happen if you went to your school That's a really interesting one. The answer is I don't know. I suspect there are pressures from many aspects of the social hierarchy I suspect that they would feel preresscious when I not going to a private school, but the fact that it's Eaton stands out to me. And I think that's probably why I feel the way I feel, which is slightly disappointed but not surprised. Yeah. and maybe they didn't have any choice, which is when we deep into the logistics of it. I don't know. sorry. That's another interesting one, isn't it? Because of course I mean I went to university with lots of people who went to some very expensive schools and actually an awful lot of them are fantastic people. They did not choose where they went to school. And it's not their fault No listen, I don't want to give the impression that I mean, I don't regret even going to the school that I went to. Because of all the things that it gives you, I don't think I'd be doing this job today if I hadn't gone to the school that I went to. My housemaster was one of those idiots who would say things like you'll be in prison or in parliament. You'll be a millionaire. I think he said, you'll be a millionaire or in prison by the time you're twenty one. And of course I was neither, but I don't know that I'd have had the swagger or whatever you want to call it to some of the things that I've done in the course of my career that have led me here. Maybe I would, I don't know. I'll never know. That's, you know a relatively small price to pay, but you can't argue with privilege and entitlement. It's why the worst people in the world are the ones that were born three nel up and think they scored a hat rick. I don't think Prince George is in that category. I think he knows he was born twenty four neil up. It's just that going to a school like Eton is unlikely to make him ever question the the fairness of that or the inevitability of it the inevitability of it. And then could you be king If you spent all your time questioning whether or not we should have kings Dan's in Southfies. Dan. what would you like to say J don't Well, I'd like to say that for this particular boy, He's in the unique position where I don't think he'll get an advantage from going to Eaton so for anyone else I would say that that network that it's going to build, you know, rubbing shoulders ironically with the Royals and with very important people. to lots of people in society gives them the benefits that perhaps you and I had He won't get that benefit. And education wise s What's the best education that he can get as someone in that unique position is to be connected to the people over which he will reign. he's not going to be Not going no, exactly. There's no benefit for him to go to that university like the school sorry. but the the The benefit of education, I mean, the old story of his father and the driver, do you remember sorry, grandfather and the driver saying whyy didn't you go to university? And he said ' I got the I got the same A levels as you sir. Yeah, I loved that joke. It was on the Jasper Carrat show I think in the nineteen eighties. It was one of my old times. It was one of the first jokes I ever laughed at that was political. I remember thinking, o God I got that Yeah, but where else could he go Well, I think there are plenty of really good universities really good schools, other schools that you could go to don't have the stigma of Eaten. they don't have the kind of I mean I't know. I too. Yeah. but then you've got then you've got the patronizing air of that whole thing, which is he's going to be kingmate Send him to a school in a pretense that you are somehow rejecting or seeking to mitigate privilege and entitlement. You just have to forget that he's going to be king one day. Why did you go to that school? Well, because I think you know we really wanted the boy to be aware of a world beyond privilege and entitlement. So we sent him to the fifth best school in the country or the seventeenth most expensive school. Oh, okay. So I mean, this skepticism about privilege and entitlement. that I mean, where does that sit on the fact that he's going to be king one day? What did Nicholas Soames say to me years ago when he rang in to and I think he's a good egg Nicholas Soames for the record. There's a phrase you don't hear. manyany people who didn't go to public school ever use, but I do genuinely think He used to ring me quite a lot. Nick in Westminster would come on the line and youd think, I wonder if that's Sos, and it usually but not always, it was And he was singing the praises of schools in his constituency where he had been given the The prize is out the previous weekend, I think, and stuff like that. And we were having a conversation about what another Tory had called public school swagger and we must try and Tach children are not at public schools, the public school swagger. I think it's better translated as confident And Nicholas rang in to endorse this idea and to sing the praises of the schools in his constituency, the state schools in his constituency where kids were achieving an awful lot. perhaps a little unfairly. I said to him, didid you send to your children to these schools, Sir Nicholas. And And I think what did he say? I think you've just bowled me center stump, James.et I think you've just bowed me midwicki And that's the point, isn't it? So if they didn't send him into Eaton, it would look a little bit A little bit of meh, wouldn't it? Is he going to be king one day? Yes. Oh, are you going to send him to it? No? no, no, no, that would be a bit privilegeed Let me just run that by you. Is he going to be king one day? Yes, he is, off course he is. Yeah. Well all being well. who knows who But he is as far as you know, all being well going to be yes Are you going to send to Eeten? Oh, no, no, no, no. We just want him to be raised in a slightly less privileged milieu It's eleven thirty one n. I've got that line from Julie Cooper and I think I did actually get it more or less right. I'll share it with you after the very latest headlines with Dominic Heris It is eleven thirty four. I'm still waiting for people Well I suppose I'll have to have a go at it if you don't. who went to a public school and canan explain to people who didn't what is going to happen to Prince George that would not happen to him at a normal school I have two quotes. The one I usually use is the Cyril Connolly quote from Enemies of Promise. Conolly, I think was a contemporary of all Wells at Eton. And he absolutely nails some of the problems, albeit I generally disagree with the final line of his theory of permanent adolescence. So I'll share that with you shortly. And the other quote from somewhere elsewhere on the canon is the u The Jilly Cooper one and here it is. So traditionally the public schools look down on the grammar schools and equally the boarders at public schools look down on the dayboys because they pay less for their education. Etonians look down on everyone and the smartest Catholic school, Ampleforce, looks down on Eton Which was not my experience, but who am I to argue with Stt Gilli of Cooper? The big London public schools tended to be superior academically, but it wasn't smart to be academic and most of the St. Paul's and Westminster intake lived in and around London and no gentlemen lived in London. And so it goes on, perhaps explains one of the chips on George Osbne's shoulders. The great public schools, Eent Harrow, Winester, rugby and Moreborough look down on the minor public schools and the boarding prep looks down on the day prep who looks down on state school boys who in return for such contontumilei, didid I pronounce that correctly? It's a wonderful word. That could be our word for the day, couldn't it? Did you know that word before? Contumi insolent, haughty, or contemptuous language and insulting treatment. I may have announced it imprecisely, but I don't think I have in return for such consumerly would duff them up prep school boys they would duff prep school boys up on the way home. Finally, the good compomprehenses despise the snink schools, where the brighter children despise the dumber ones and the dumber ones actually refer according to one school mistress to the bright ones as snobs. Plu S Chons Plu L Mems I don't know if you heard me play that clip from Stephen, Yaxle Lennon's last Grift But it involved people demanding that a woman be removed from the crowd because she looked like she'd read a book once So there you have the least educated people condemning the brighter people as snobs in Jilly Cooper's book, which I think was written in the early eighties, possibly even longer ago, and nothing has changed at all. And that is why perhaps some people felt ppointment when it announced that Prince George was going to go to Eton because it's like Nothing's changing Is it? Nothing's changed. There anything nothings changed since the days of the Empire When these schools would train the boys that were going off to far flung lands to rule Imagine turning up in India, convinced that you had a right to rule the place This is one of the reasons why the far right don't want you to be taught about British history because it's quite embarrassing Nothing for you to feel guilty about,ness me weren't even born. but when you look at the historical patte, The idea that we would turn up in far flung countries and tell the natives we're in charge now and then start shipping all the raw materials home or flogging them for enormous profits I mean's indefensible and a little bit, I suppose, embarrassing if you can connect to previous generations. But I suppose the existence of these schools and the sending to one of them of the future king involves an admission or an acknowledgement that nothing has actually changed at all For all the professed egalitarianism You're still going to a school that costs sixty thousand pounds a year, which means you have to earn about one hundred twenty thousand pounds before you pay tax in order and have it spare. in order simply to send your ren, your son in this case, because Eatan is still one of the few single sex gls left to send them there I don't know if see this is the thing that I mean about the gulf between people who went to these schools and people who didn't You can see the golf, right? Can you see the golf But have you any idea what the other people see when they look at you I don't. mean When do you think, when you're listening to me, when do you think, Oh, typical public school but? I mean I'd like to think you never do. But I bet you do. If you do, I hope it's just low level stuff like calling Nicholas Somes a good egg It's not a phrase I use a lot. But would I use it if I'd gone to A normal school, a comprehensive school. I don't know. What do you see that we don't see. And vice versa. Well I mean, can you see the person on the other side of this enormous I don't think we can, you know don't I can point to little differences. So if you went to public school, you will ask people when you meet them, having used various codes, most obviously accent You would ask them where they went to school You will say and I do this. so there you go. that's typical public school. Imagine if I did it callers Imagine if a posh caller came on and I said, Where did you go to school, old Pip? That'd be absolutely incredible, wouldn't it? I wonder if we should have an experiment, find someone, find a full on to, get them to present a phone and show in the way that they would conduct their life outside a studio. So someone rings in and goes, Hello, first time caller, long time listener and you recognise an accent, so you say, Oh hello, old boy, where did you go to school? And no one else says that. If you didn't go to public school, you never say where did you go to school to someone Unless you come from the same town. So if I met you on holiday and you said you came from Kileminster, you might say to me, what school did you go to? And I'd thent have to say, oh actually I went to boarding school two hundred miles away. Buty, I went to prep school in Chadatteresley Corbt But the reason you do it is because you will have connections, right? So I say to you, what school did you go to? And you say Baxter College, which is the big school in Kiddaminsta And then you say, Oh, you must know John or you must know so and so Public schools kid you not, you say to someone what school did you go to? They say Harrow, you say, Oh, well you must know old Percy You must know old Gussy Fink Notle You say went to Eaton, I thought, well, you must know my mate Jamie, or you must know Sil and So and So. So So it's this extraordinary self perpetuating constituency of privilege that either you're in or you don't really understand. And that is where he's going. And that's why I think simultaneously, I've got a bit of cognitive dissonance going on here. It's a shame he's going there, but I don't see that they had any choice at all. He has to go there, right He has to go there. doesn't he o three, four, five, six zero six zo nine seven three Chris is in Tuting, Chris. Wh would you like to say Hello, James, firstirst on call a longong T timee list. Hello, old Pip, whereere did you go to school I went to Arnold's school in Blackpool which it was a private school. It's now been amalgamated into another local school U And it was a you know, best school in Blackpool, but nonetheless I there's a little bit of me there resisting get a bit of snobbery when you say the best school in Blackpool, which is terrible, right? But I'm going to be completely honest with you.'s you know, it's I mean is there a lot of competition Well I could have gone to bombs, mate that's an absolute hellhole. No, it was a private school. It was a good school. Not a massively expensive school. I reckon it was a thousand pounds a term But nonetheless, for Blackpool That's what it costs. Yeah And it was a good school And I hated it Boy I think it's a problem that I've got with authority because that would apply at any school. All schools have authority, There's plenty of. Absolutely. but mine was relatively straight. I think they let me get away with a lot But Taught me so much. Go on, listen one by one biggest one was a teacher. Tom Linson He was incredible. Thank goodness for that. I thought you might be about to libel him. No, no, no, no, nood. He was amazing. This is a guy who confirmed bachelor used to turn up every day wearing a bow tie. I start peculiar to private school because I think mister Bronsson in Grangill wore a bow tie. So just give me something that's peculiar to private school. something that people who didn't go to a school like yours will not really know about or understand He was a drama and an English teacher and he the he ran the deebating Society.. And I was in the debating society. Of course I was.. Yes there's a thing to read Latin. But he He just Blled me The I don't know what it was. He saw something in me. that nobody else seem to see. And he gave me a love of language and of But you could have got that you could have got that at a non fee paying school. You'd have been luckyer, but it still could have happened. So I'm trying to pin down what Prince George is going to get that he wouldn't get anywhere else. U I think he's going to be amongst his peers. Yeah I think that's it I think whether it goes to Eastern or not I don't know. I was mildly disappointed when it was announced because I have this sort of naive hope that the country I live in the society will become more egalitarian. But how can it be The bloat's going to be. I think some of the Scandinavian royals go to normal schools, you know, So it's not beyond the wit of But with their protection I don't know. I mean I mean you never know how that works either you know until you actually find out for yourself. But it may prrotection is like a self perpetuating phenomenon. Of course once you have it, you could never suggest taking it away because they unless you're Prince Harry, they took his away So they obviously don't think it is one hundred percent necessary for them all to have protection unless they were playing fast and loose with Prince Harry and his family's safety. But it it's also a status. I mean, Andrew was the one that really loved having. security. I don't know. I think that adds to the sense of mystique actually having all of the security around. It's why Nigel Farage hires them so many people to protect him from largely mythical milkshakes. It's eleven forty five. It's a status announcement. I don't know. we're not going there. I mean this idea, I think is going to be the conclusion It's a shame he's going there because of general unspecified belief in egalitarianism, but what the hell else could they have done? And PMQ's is just around the corner, which means I must tell you who the politician that I don't like Nazi comparisons. you you have to Be careful You have to back them up I think it's very important to remember that the Holocaust did not begin with the gas chambers, for example The Holocaust began with demands for millions of people to be deported. without anybody cheering that idea on being particularly concerned about where they would be deported to. So you have in UK politics at the moment, you have an echo of that moment in nineteen thirties German politics But of course, it doesn't mean that the people currently calling for the deportation of countless residents of this country, legal legal residents of this country. that's something else of course that is a parallel with Nazi Germany it works. You've got to be able to back it up. If Elon Musk gives salutes that look identical to Nazi salutes, you're allowed to use the word He's allowed to claim it was a Roman salute. You're allowed to call Raise an eyebrow at the prospect, but don't throw the word around Johnson did it When he described European Union officials as concentration campgards. I just think it's disgusting, actually. Who do you think is suggested that Bridget Phillipson has acted like a gestapo officer by ending a tax break for private schools I'm going to give you a clue She's fantastic. Oh she's just brilliant. Oh, if I could get one drop of her utterly deilluded self belief, I'd be popeed by the end PM kit haveave you worked it out yet? I'll tell you after this I just thought excuse me. I just thought of something that also probably singles out public school boys in particular from people who didn't go to boarding public schools. And I just said to Eleand, do you think I could share on the radio that an awful lot of Nicknames are derived from dot dot dot and she said, Well, give me some examples. So I' said a few examples. She went, yeah, I don't see why not, but I can't do it. It's too rude I can't I can't do what it. She said, give me some examples. So I said, All right, potato pencil. And I'm not going to tell you, but anyway, if you went to that kind of school, then some nicknames will be derived from a An area that you wouldn'tally initially or immediately think of. eleven fifty one is the time Samtha is in Salisbury, Sana, what made you pick up the phone G morning Jane. Hello Sas I think they have to send him to a public school. If they want him to be king. I don't think they have a choice I think they need him to have that built in entitlement and confidence that only a public school will give you, you're not going to get that from a comprehensive school at the bottom of your road. And if you think that you need to be king and you have an entitlement to be king, you need to be brought up in that kind of environment Yeah, I mean, it's neither good nor bad when you put it like that. It just is. Yeah, it just is What would happen if he went to I mean, I keep sort of I'd like to name a specific school But I don't know it's fair. I mean, what would happen if we went to the local comprehensive in Salisbury I think he would start questioning things. He'd start thinking he shouldn't be king. Exactly. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that's it, isn't it? that The the world is unfair and actually he might start questioning the monarchy, the rule system, the class system we have in this country. And they can't have him questioning that. They need him to have this entitlement and this belief that this is what he was born to do And he won't believe that if he's surrounded by other normal folks No, I think you're probably right. And of course it doesn't just applied to the king it applies to pretty much everybody who goes to these schools who would start doubting the fairness of a system which has anointed them from birth with epic privilege and entitlement, evenven you know with the parents like mine who could barely afford it, you still come away with the trappings of self belief Absolutely. And they're not going to give that up because if they if they start questioning it And where does that lead They're not going to question a world that gives them everything, are they I No. I mean what's your perspective on this personally rather than just intellectually Oh I think it's really hard. So I from the Northeast of England, grew up in a councilhouse in New Middlesgorth, a very hard upbringing. And I'm married to an old Aonian So our worlds are complete of class of What's the biggest cl What's the biggest difference? What's the biggest thing that you perhaps didn't expect until you got married or you had been together for a while. the thing that felt most impenetrable I think the thing that was hardest is these people just and most of them are lovely people, like they're not bad humans. No of course. But they just have this confidence I'd say money can't buy, but money can buy it. Money literally buys it. Money literally buys it. They have this confidence and this self belief and part of that is what drew me to my husband because he is an amazing orator and he can hold a room and he is lovely Ry It is the thing you were saying about when people ask you what school you go to I'm nearly forty five. I still get asked what school I went to and it is becausecause you sound quite posish. I don't know if you've always sounded. I think I am very good at linguistics and I just naturally. It's easier to sound like this, where I live now and the company I keep than it is to sound like where I come from. Do you lapse when you go back to Middlesborough? Oh absolutely. Did you ever go? I tryed to think of your age whether or not, wasas Rhea's creamy Iis still a thing when you were living in the Middlesborough area where Brian Clough met his wife? No. That's a shame. It's the family business of a very good friend of mine. It hasn't been around for years, but I always think that if you wanted to get your head around the Middlesbacks and saying Rhea's creamy ices, It'am It's one of the best ways to do it. sadly, I can't do it on demand, I have to be up there. But you nearly did, then you said demand. I did I think. And you're right. I mean, you know, some of these conversations can be unkind because you're talking about things over which young boys have absolutely no say. but that political question What would happen if he didn't go there? He'd start recognizing how ridiculous the whole thing is, whichich is why the quQeen always said, donon't let the light in. Don't let the light out? lovevely. Thank you, Samantha. As soon as you mentioned your age, I started going through that mental roller deecks of people if your husband is the same age as you, of people who I would be able to I remember who were probably there, the younger brothers of kids that I knew who would have been there when he was there and that's just weird Yeah, O of course it's arrogance, Laurece says, it's not confidence. but you tell me the difference between arrogance and confidence. Often the difference between arrogance and confidence is that a confident person has grounds for their confidence, whereas an arrogant person doesn't. But Samantha is describing someone who has grounds for his confidence. Because he can hold a room and he is a great orator, therefore, he's not arrogant. But you need to be arrogant to stand up in front of a room full of people and think that you're interesting enough to be listened to too which my traditional response is to say, well, how does that translate to someone presenting a radio show with one and a half million listeners Michelle's in Windsor, just down the road from Eon College. Michelle, what would you like to say Well, just in response to your question, the local school would be Windsor Voice School. Right. What would happen if he went there Well, my point was actually about misogyny and I don't know whether that would make it a huge amount of difference, but it's an awful lot rougher than Eaton College. My daughter went to Windsor Girls schoolchool where they do actually still have split education but my point was what would he gain by going to Eton? And what about Princess Charlotte? He would gain misogyny and an advantage educationally that his sister will not get We have a perfectly good school that's not been mentioned in AsCA, licensed victures which is a private school that's been running for years and years and years. And like Mulbor, it's co educational By sending George to Eton, You have automatically cut Princess Charlotte off. And given that we've changed the rules of succession, so that in future a female can succeed. I think the There is a big misogyny argument about that. misogyny is a big word. I mean not literally, but it I mean it might be sexist. It's not misogynist, is it? Ncessarily I don't know. I mean, I know't know. It's not deliberately maligning women because they're women. It's sexist because it's providing an advantage to a boy that's not available to a girl. So if they'd sent into an incredibly privileged or if Eaton had gone co educational five years ago, like my school did, I think, ten years ago or something, then it wouldn't point wouldn't really apply, would it? No, but also there is the girls school used to go over and do a lot of stuff with a science club with Eaton College. And one of the things about the boys at Eaton College is when it came to girls compared to the Windsor Bys school, they were very socially So socially awkward. I mean locally How long ago was Th are referred to as the penguin. That's because of what they wear, not because of how they walk. How long ago was your daughter visited you? Well, she's in her thirties now, so There's an interesting quote in the telegraph today from someone saying there were two Eatons. If you're in your fifties, if you wentn' there in the seventies, the eighties or the nineties, then you would be all the things that you describe In recent years it's sort of softened at the edges and is not necessarily quite the sort of hot bed. that you describe. I don't know. I mean Well, my daughter's a bit younger than Prince Harry. So she'd have been there ye. It would have been while she would have been dancing at the girl schoolchool while Harry was in the upper years at Eton. So it's relatively recently Where could they send Charlotte that would D diffuse your criticism Well, The argument would probably be for sending George to a local school so he could still come home at weekends then Samantha says he'd start wondering how on earth he can be king one day because it's so ridiculous and unfair and unjustified. the idea that you're king But I mean, the alternative for Charla is Licensed Lictureerss which is co or Mulborough, which is a long way away. where her mum went. I think I' I keep saying quite a lot It's still quite an hour hour and a half's drive or somewhere like Chelman Ladies C. Rhodie used to be the school that everybody mentioned as the sort of female equivalent of Eton, but I'm a bit out of the loop to be honest with you. I have no idea whether that whether or not that is Still true. Thank you, Michelle And then a quick one. I think James in Westminster might be the it's not going to get a raayay oota, but I think we should squeeze you in, James for reasons that will become clear. What will he get from there that he wouldn't get anywhere else? Hi James, thanks. I think if you take a step back, probably the number one reason why An parent would send their child to Eaton is opportunity And in this case that probably doesn't really. I'm glad I didn't jump in then. I'm glad you qualified that yourself. Lell. opportunities for what being King? His life is mapped out for him. so I think from the viewpoint of his parents They probably just want him to have as best a time as possible for the five years aside from everything else. And I think given, I think someone previously mentioned that their husband can hold court, I think there' something ridiculous like five societyies thrown every night across the school, across a range of topics. So from a sort of diplomatic perspective, that can only be a good thing for him. And secondecondly At the end of the day, it's a tried and tested model with William and Harry with security. And privacy that the school work Were you there with either of them or are you younger than? younger than them? You're younger than. What about Samantha's suggestion that if he went to a quotes normal school end quotes, he might start questioning the existence of monarchy itself Well, I think a That implies that people who go to somewhere like Eton just have absolutely zero understanding of George Orwell went there. So you're absolutely right. There's plenty of people who have come away profoundly repepublican in their outlook and beta And B, just after what you said, I can't remember my. That's a public school thing you just did. I do that as well. I say A, to give myself time to think of it there are three reasons why James from Westminster is a brilliant caller A, he went to Eton Oh dear. Aggie Sean Bay is here because it's time for PMQs. Aggie, welcome. Thank you. What do we expect? Oh, hang on, I need to reveal something Which politician said Bridget Phillipson is not fit to be I beg your pardon. Bridget Phillipson has acted like a gestapo officer because she ended A tax break for schools like Eaton College Was that Kemy Badenoock? It was the brilliant, the magnificent, the incredible Kemy Badeno, a woman whose self belief in the face of so much evidence to the contrary is a lesson to us all. So drawing Nazi comparisons with Bridget Phipson, who was understandably cross about this, pointing out that the gestapo marched hundreds of thousands of innocent people to their deaths. I've ended private schools tax breaks to invest in state schools No responsible leader makes well Claire Casino today? Are we going now? Okay, so we go now it's the day of the deputies Here it is.oday as well. I also pay tribute to those who lost their lives in the Grerenfell Tower Fire, and I'd also like to congratulate Scotland on their stunning win and wish England the very best of luck for tonight. Nowr, it is a great privilege to be standing here with one of the few survivors of Labour's original cabinet. Wh hasn't resigned on principle or been sacked in disgrace I feel honoured. So can he start by telling me this? Why is the Labour Government happy for Britain to get its oil and gas from Russia or Qatar, but not from Aberdeen?ut Prime Minister Well, can I welcome the Shadow Energy Secretary to the dispatch box? It's always good to hear from someone who was the heart of the treasury during the biggest fall in living standards. Chren's minister in government that plunged hundreds of thousands of children into poverty, and the energy Secretary who showed an unraavering commitment to the cause of net zero even though she has now forgotten that. It believe everything you read in the papers. The Prime Minister and the Energy Secretary have been discussing cutting bills by over one hundred pounds. We have got our warm homes plan lifting millions of families out of fuel poverty and securing enough energy projects to power twenty three million homes. She was the energy seecretary who left our country exposed to global fossil fuel markets, where deliing clean energy security? Mr. Speaker Bills came down five hundred pounds under me. They've gone up three hundred pounds under these guys This is nonsense. His party are banning new oil and gas licenses in the North Sea. and these guys over here they're no better because this is the same policy that the SMP championed for years. It is pointless virtue signaling and it's destroying well paid jobs. So can he tell the House how jobs have been lost in Aberdeen since Labour came to power. Dy Prime Minister I remember when the Energy Secretary championed Net Zero, She said in twenty twenty three, we cannot prosper, nor can our children flourish if we dot decarbonise energy The Tories used to believe this three years ago, now she's forgotten because they're desperately chasing reform and we know it Over seven hundred jobs were lost during the last ten years when they were in power. Production fell seventy five percent over the last twenty five years. We have secured over nine hundred billions worth of investment to support more jobs by taking control with renewables, and there are over one hundred thousand jobs in Scotland supported by clean power. We are building on that led by the Great British Energy, headquartered in Aberdeen. Murk. Mrak, let me help them out. A thousand people are losing their jobs every month in places like Aberdeen South because of Labour's policies. They say those oil and gas workers can get new green jobs, but what they don't say is those salaries pay half as much So can he tell the House how he would feel if the government forced him to take a fifty percent pay cut? Everyime Mister The honourable Lady used to be an investment banker and she's got her facts wrong. Oil and gas is coming out of the North Sea twenty for seven. In the first three months of this year, fifty two million barrels of oil came out, forty four million barrels equivalent ofas came out. We're not turning off the taps. It's part of a mixed economy that will support existing oil and gas fields throughout their lifespan, making changes to exploit neighbouring fields. But we do want to create more jobs and that's why we're going to continue to invest renewables. She knew this three years ago, She' changed her mind Because she's chasing them thirteen Mr Speaker, I asked him about pay cuts and they should care, they should care because if the mayor of Manchester gets his way, I'm pretty sure half the front bench are going to be getting a pay cut pretty soon.pe This is serious. The world is getting, the world is getting more dangerous. Yet last week The Prime Minister asked the Energy Secretary to help fund the defence of our country. And he ghosted him Let me repeat that. The Energy Secretary refused to meet the Prime Minister on a matter of national security. Why hasnt he been sacked?ister Stop reading the papers, I'd say to the honourable Lady.r, when the Defence investment P, when the Defence investment Plan is published, it will set out this is important, it will set out how every government department is contributing to defence including the Enerergy deepartment. We will always put national security first. The party oppositite still don't get it, Families worried about their bills going up because of a war in the Middle East, a war in the Middle East that her leader said she'd jump into feet. continue. If everything's so hunky dory, why did Half his defence team quit last weekpeak, they won't find the money to keep our country safe. So let's go through some of the things they can find the money for. Millions of pounds to build solar farms in the Congo, tens of millions of pounds on an experiment to dim the sun. and they are turning down twenty five billion pounds in tax revenue from the North Sea too please their out of control energy seecretary Do he really think that any of that is more important than defending our country Prime Minister, we have said that more spending on defence is our number one priority in this spending reiew and the next spending reiew She wants to talk about resignations. Let' us just remind ourselves. The Tory defence secretary that resigned in the last Government, remember for Stone, who was sacked for breaching national security. The Tory defence seecretary Michael Fallon, who resigned over sexual harassment, the Tory defence secretary who admitted hollllowing out the Armed Force serervice for fourteen years That was Ben Wallace. We've got a Prime Minister securing jobs and investment in the G seven. We've got a Chancellor raising the minimum wage, we've got an education secretary cutting costs for childcare and we've got an energy secretary cutting energy bills by over one hundred pounds. We're proud of that record.ill If everything is fine, why is he here Let's face it. is he wasn't here last week, was he? Let's face it. This is a government on life support. And what's their grand plan now? They want to, let me get this straight. They want to make the job destroying Energy Secretary Chancellor They want to bring back the former Trport seecretary who resigned for nicking phones. They want to replace him with the former Dputy Prime Minister who resigned for dodging taxes. These are all pointless distractions. So here's a better idea they cut welfare, fund defence, make energy cheap and back the North Sea Prime Minister, It' thin grule. It's very thin grule. I'm here like she is because I'm standing in Prime Minister and the leader of my party. I'm proud to serve this Prime Minister, I' proud of what this Labour Government is delivering. M rights for working people, the biggest upgrade to workers' rights in a generation, the biggest boost to defence spending since the Cold War and lifting more children out of poverty in a single term than any British Gvernment in history. the party opposite can make all the noise they want. They don't want to talk about the economy because it' growing. They don't want to talk about the NHS because waiting lists are falling and they don't want to talk about immigration because they lost control of our borders and net migration is down under us eighty twocent. They had their chance, they blew it, We're building a stronger, fairer Britain. I also want to pay tribute to Jo Cox and her family and the commitment in her name that we tackle division and extremism because we saw extremism play out on the streets of Belfast last week, a pooggrom. families burnnt out based on the colour of their skin. Health workers stopped for ID by mask su, small businesses ordered to close, and many minorities are still living in fear after a list of their addresses was circulated widely online. They deserve more than sympathy and warm words. They deserve to know that governments are serious about confronting hatred on and offline The UK government and the Norther Ireland Executivees spend millions each year on programs intended to tackle paramilitarism. But decades after the troubles, individuals linked to loyalist paramilitaries had a role in directing and fueling the disorder last week, including menacing a senior journalist on tape Will the UK Government commit to reviewing how the Northern Ireland exxecutive is gripping or failing to grip paramilitarism? and will they ensure that public money never reaches individuals or groups who fuel, orchestrate or benefit from intimidation and hate? Well,rpeaker, can I join her in utterly condemning the violence? People are right to feel sickened by the sight of people being burnt out of their homes because of the colour of their skin That is racism, and, those responsible will face the full force of the law. We must never go back to nineteen fifties Britain, where my father arrived to sign, saying no blacks No dogs, no Irish. We are focused on bringing people together and that includes providing a further EUR twenty four million to help tackle paramilitarism, acting to tackle those inciting hatred online, and our social cohesion plan is about bringing our communities together. I'm happy to work with all parties. In that endeavour. Daisi Cooper, deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats. Can I associate myself and my party with the Deputy Prime Minister's tribute to Joe Cox? We extend our condolences to her friends and family and to all those of Roy Hathesley as well. C can I join the Deputy Pre Minister in remembering the horrific tragedy of Grenfell and that those families still are awaiting justice Mr Speak, can I congratulate all those named in the King's birthday Honours list? Conggratulate Scotland and wish good luck to England for this evening.rpe The right honourable Mmber for Raarmarsh and Conisborough is respected across this House. When he says that he was forced to make decisions that could make the country less safe, we should all take heed. It is now becoming clear that the Treasury's refusal to consider new ways of funding defence is undermining our national security. So will the Deputy Prime Minister join with us to make the case in goovernment for new defence bombs which could raiseUR twenty billion p over two years to defend country D the blnt. Well can I say to the honourable Lady that we do believe that we should work with our allies to join up defence procurement and funding. That's why we're exploring the most effective mechanisms for multililateral cooperation, and of course it's a topic of discussion for the Prime Minister at the G seven D, We are pleased to hear that the Government is looking at this, but they need to act far quicker.pe, it is now more than five years since the Prime Minister originally set his famous redlines on Europe when he was in opposition. No customs union, no single market But since then, the world has changed. Putin has launched a war on our continent, an unreliable Donald Trump has returned to the White House, and here at home the cost of living has got worse and worse. So does the Deputy Prime Minister agree that the government should rip up those redlines now or is that just another job to be left to the Pime Minister Prime Minister. Well I was proud to be the Labour Foreign Secretary that returned to the meeting of European Foreign Secretary and work alongside my colleague in the Cabinet Office to ensure that we were at that summit and it was successful last year And I've just confirmed the next summit will take place on the twenty second of July. Our redlines remain, but we're focused on an SPS deal to cut prices on the shelves, a youth experience scheme and cutting red tape for exporters. N. Thank you very muchr. I am sure the whole House will It is eighteen minutes after twelve and that brings to a conclusion this week's P or at least the main thrusts of this week's PMQs. I'll give Agie Chambre a moment or two to Compose yourself because I think that Kemy Badenoch stand in asked Kir Stahmer standing why Kir Starmer standing was standing in for Kir Starmer, but I may have got that wrong twentyenty minutes after twelve is the time. It is indeed a day of the deputies. Natasha Clark is in Makerfield because I think something's happening there tomorrow. We'll catch up with her before the end of the programe. I've also got a rather splendid juxtaposition. I love that word. Juxtaposition of an unhinged headline with a misedinformation, which means that Tom, who's in the chair for Keith today is going to have to press two buttons shortly after half past twelve today. I hope you've checked your contract Tom, but that is absolutely what we expect of you. But before all of that Agie Chambre, our deputy political editor is here. Now if I wanted to channel the spirit of Claire Catino at this point, I'd say, why are you here It would be a great question. I mean, I'm here because Why are you here? You weren't here last week? No, I know So that was strange, wasn't it? Because we all know why David Lamy is standing in. David Lammey is the deputy Prime Minister. He is standing in for Kirstahmer at Deputy Prime Minister' Questions because Kirst Starmer is at the G seven And whenever Kir Stamm is there, it means that David Lamy's there. And then it means that there's some sort of deputy for the Conservatives, although they all love keeping us on our toes and they just put up whoever they want to talk about whatever top. Badenock doesn't want a deputy. She doesn't want anybody to have a power base around which anybody may gather or is it sorry, what a silly question. It's because she's a political genius I think it is genuinely because on days On days like today, they don't want David Lany to have too much time to prep and work out exactly what's going to be asked. So they keep everyone on their toes and then they political genius She's a political genius That is one way of putting it. No E exactly. That' how she puts it. That's how she puts. Asolute political genius. O he's getting there to political genius, getting better every day. But he seemed know exactly what was coming because he had her CV in front of him and indeed her track record of being in favour of all the things that she is now professing to be opposed to from net zero down Indeed, so Claire Catino is, of course the shadow ennergy seecretary, the shhadow Net Zero secretary. And she wanted to talk about, although she didn't actually mention it. that crucial crucial by election that we spent so much time covering, of course, the one in Aberdeen South, not actually the one in Makerfield. And that is because some people, some conservatives locally are basically saying that represents a referendum on oil and gas. And she effectively I think wanted to punch the bruise that there is among the Parliamentary Labour Party and the disagreements on where they stand on new licenses in the North Sea. We also have had one of the Labour Sorting Unions, GMB talking about this too and being very critical of where labour and indeed Ed Miliband, the Eergy seecretary stand on this. So she began by asking how many why Labour was happy to get its oil and gas from Russia or Qatar, but not Aberdeen And Lamy then talked about the fact that she was a treasury minister during the biggest fall in living standards for decades and then said, and he said this a few times, James. Don't believe everything you read in the papers. She went on to ask how many jobs have been lost in Aberdeen and Lammy talked about, as he mentioned, the fact that she used to champion Net Zero when she was energy secretary And she then talks about the facts whichich is just true.ich is actually true. Yep And she then said that one thousand jobs are being lost in the oil industry a month, which is also what industry sources do say as well. He then said she'd got her facts wrong. And then perhaps unsurprisingly, she turned on to these reports reported by Patrick McGuire in the Times that Ed Milliband has been basically ghosting The Prime Minister, he was trying to Kistm was trying to cool Ed Miliband and Ed Milliband just wasn't really getting back to him, which is pretty extraordinary. Of course, this comes after there were reports as well that Ed Milliband, which haven't really been denied that Ed Miliband basically called for Kist Ama to go and said that he should set out a timeline in the days before the local elections. And obviously things are pretty frosty between the pair of them. The fact that Ed Milliband's ghost in Kistarama has been denied by a source close to Ed Milliband, but still pretty awkward and then that gave David Lamy the opportunity to say once again, don't believe everything you read in the papers or stop reading the papers. and Ceratino then made a little joke about the cabinet getting a pay cut soon and also managed to get on to the sort of Domestic politics of talking about potentially Ed Mill Obam becoming Chancellor, Louise Hagig, the former transansport secretary, Angela Ryna, potentially coming back into the cabinet too. So she had a bit of a jibe there. and of course, couldn't get through a whole depy Prime Minister's questions without mentioning defence. Indeed Dudy, I think speaking of defence, Tony tells me that Claud Kina may have been pointing at Dan Jarvis And she said, Why is he A I' not talking because I mean, certainly if you were listening exclusively to the audio It sounded like was talking to David Lamy but that makes a lot more sense That would actually make some sort of sense albeit drawing attention, of course, to the resignation of John Healley, which of course, it was also reported this morning blindsided Kirstalmer because he was so worried that Ed Milibad might have been about to resign. We should probably add that the account of this so called ghosting was rejected by a source close to Miliban according to the people that reported the ghosting, who said that the pair eventually spoke and denied that Miliban declined to take the Prime Minister's calls. It's a funny one, isn't it? Be you know I forget the exact details, but the CBI published data last week or the week before about about one point one million UK workers in the net zero economy. And I think one hundred five billion pounds in gross value added for the UK economy, but it's not either all. If they were to issue new oil licenses, it would compromise net zero commitments, but it wouldn't mean that any of the people in the Net zero economy were to lose their jobs. Their earnings currently eleven percent higher than the current national average. but as Claire Catino pointed out, possibly as much as fifty percent less than what they might expect to earn in the oil sector. Do Does it work? Does it have traction this? Do it I mean, it does in Aberdeen. beyond Well, it does in Aberdeen, and the by election for Aberdeen South is tomorrow. So if the Conservatives are able to win that and speaking to people in the party, they feel reasonably confident and reasonably hopeful Kemmy Badenock has gone a few times to the constituency. she's called it. I lucky there. She's serious. What would I do you think she'd ever come and see me If we were having a byilight Pl played your cards right 's full list of candidates as ever is available at lbc. com . Uk This is due to Stephen Flynn moving into the Scottish Parliament So it is SMP versus SMP versus Tories exactly that. With a full list of candidates as ever available at lbc. co. U. My inbox is mostly Pro Lammy, I think, let me find a few examples for you. Almost entirely pro Lammy, except Charles wants to know, whyy know if they never answer the question about drilling in the pretty sound thrashing from LAamy, their pathetic performance. Even Kemmy would have done better. That's Lauren and Allan. Why does she insist that North Sea Gas would somehow make our energy cheap. That's one of those things that's got halfway around the world before the truth has got its trousers on and we'd still be paying it on the open market wherever it came from, but the bit about jobs is there for a more salient point go in on Lamy is in football terms a seasoned pro U It is very weak Gruel. Emmy is right trying to find something a bit warmer for Claire Catino. Why is Lammy here? Oh no, that's Steh. I think falling into the trap I fell into thinking that Claire Catino was talking about David Lammy When she said, whyy is he here this week? And if you were watching it closely on a screen, you'd have known that she was pointing at Dan Jarvis. This is weak stuff from Catino. She really and Kate saidays she really can't land the punchline, Bring back Kemy couldn't agree more whatever the context, whatever the story, we want more Kemy Kemy Kemy Kemy. this is cringe wororthy. Why is he here? Because the Prime Minister is at the G seven. O OMG Tories have abandoned any concern about net zero. God she's even worse than me at telling jokes. says Karen and finally, Lauren says, Oh Lamy brought receipts. So Cemy will be delighted Kemy will be delighted I didn't Catino that bad actually. I don't think I did either. And it was her first time ever doing Deputy Prime Minister's questions. This last makes Kemy look like Aristotle. Wow, said James Of course we dont know what Aristotle would have sounded like, because we rely, I think upon, don't we rely upon? Oh no, we do know, I'm getting him mixed up with Socrates. An easy mistake to make No, she was. she was fine She I think she was fine. And also I thought David Lamy, he had a few things that he sort of kept saying, which was stop reading the papers. don't believe everything you say in the papers and talking about her record, which is of course, a labour favourite. but he didn't properly engage with that many of the questions. I actually don't think it was his best performance and I don't think she was terrible I would probably agree with you, notot quite a score draw, but a a hard one narrow victory, probably. That's it. We may not see you again. You're heading off on maternity leave on Friday for which we wish you all the very, very, very best. Thank you. Try and get as much sleep as you can before the moment arrives, you won't be getting any after. That's what I've heard And confirm. comoming up, Agie, it's a pleasure and we look forward to seeing you back here safe and sound. It is half past twelve. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. timee now for the very latest news headlines with Emelia C. It's thirty two minutes after twelve and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Great excitement now. we're mashing stuff together. That's what the kids would call it a mash up. We've got a bit of Hopefully we've got a bit of unhinged headline. We've definitely got a missedinformation on the way. We may even have a clip of honest Bob Genick Truly, I am spoiling you. Shall we begin with the unhinged headline? Yes we shall Unhinged headline. Dartmor's ponies don't deserve to die supports the Daily Telegph Uned headline But that leads us o no, time for honest Bob Genereick. Tom's earning his money now. Is he going to get all three clips in the right order with me no doubt making weird gestures to indicate the fact that I want the last one repeating, but I don't want the last one repeating now. I want the next one playing next. Can anyone bear listening to honest Bob Genrick's weasel words They're going to kill Hes The government had come up with a mad plan to slaughter ninety percent of the wild ponies that graze on Dark Beautiful ponies that have been there for centuries. Why Because apparently there's too much grass on Dartmor So they want to turn it into some kind of rainforest This is an evil plan And it needs to be stopped Hon it's Bob Jenk there auditioning to do the bedtime story on CBBs. I don't think that's going to go well Um I' seriously, you thought they'd had chosen different material. But also, I think we can confidently state, talking undiluted baler dash, utter, utter bilge. And everyone's at it. It's probably not fair to single out any individual organizations because I think the BBC and the Guardian have joined in as well. But if you took even the vaguest interest in this story, or even if you came at it from the point of view of thinking, that sounds highly unlikely You would have discovered relatively quickly that there is absolutely no plan Whatsoever on the horizon. One of the places you could go to find out would be Dartmore Nature's own website You could also go to the organization that stands accused of having introduced This so called policy, this so called cull, you would completely ignore the fact that well, why am I giving you all the information? We've got a flipping expert in the wings because this is not only an unhinged headline the clip deeadline. But it's also Hey Misformation Thank you, Emmily. And thank you, Tom. you could easily have got that wrong fllipping out. I was dancing around like I don't know I can't think of any dancers at the moment. Fred Astair. Fred Astair I was dancing around like and Guy Shrubsol is here, the environmental campaigner and author of most recently, the lie of the land and who really cares the lie of the land, who really cares For the countryside. I smell manure Well, hellon you guys. Nothing personal. You miles away on a screen in front that. Metaphorical manure swilling through the studio guy. What's going on here? Well, it's a great shame that it's before the watershare changed because otherwise I could have given you my one word summary of this story when I was asked for my opinion on it by Scott News yesterday, which is horse Mir you or something to that effect. It's categorically untrue. As you said, there is absolutely No one calling for a pony carl Natural England, the government's poor imperiled watchdog on nature that has to deal with this cononstant assault from the right wing press. Uh They have absolutely no proposals for any sort of pony curl They have no powers to mandate a pony Cl. They have no desire. to have any sort of pony car I'm glad you quoted Honest Bob B Genrick foratory leadership, wantan be now reformed defector.ir And You know, that last line of his because apparently there's too much grass on Dartmore And they want to turn it into some kind of rainforest You know, I kind of wish I could explain to Bob Genereick. that Dartmore is suffering from all sorts of environmental damage like overgrazing, like peak drainage you know, that has led to an explosion in this one invasive species of Native grass called purple moore grass. and that there are tiny fragments of rainforeorest, temperate rainforest on Dartmoor, and myself and many other campaigners have been calling to restore it for for many, many years But I don't think you care really because he doesn't actually care about environmental issues. He just wants to jump on a conspiratorial bandwagon Yeah You say purple Morgrass. I with my classical education, I say Molinia Cerulia And is Thank. whichich I believe is something that the very specific mandible conditions of a Dartmoore pony means that they're one of the few herbivores that can actually eat the grass that's causing the problems Well, they can.tle cattle can also do this. Okay. Cattle can also do this. A lot of the problem we've got to be clear about this. and underneath this the great Dartmore Pony Cull conspiracy of twenty twenty six, there is actually a serious set of issues that are being obscured by all the right wing bandwagging jumping politicians who spend their entire lives on ex. on you know, Elon Musk's Hill site and one I just spread conspiracies about ponycols. There is a serious issue here.. And that is that nature on Dartmore He's dy Nature on Dartmoore is in a terrible, terrible state in one of our greatest national parks. It should be a source of national shame that we have allowed the habitats on Darwal to get to such a terrible state And there's one very important reason why they are in such a state, and that is overgrazing both historic and currently And what of that's actually led to is the spread of this purple mgrass, Millennia Carula as you so wonderfully put it. and into areas where there would previous have been things like heather and other forms of other more richer habitats Now some people say, o, we need to have ponies and cattle to be able to graze out this more grass There's actually a very simple way of getting rid of this. It's to rewet the peat on Dartmoor. We have to actually restore the other habitats that Dartmoore has lost through all these other reasons why we have got such a degraded state of nature on Dartmoor. We've ended up centuries of drainage of the peat bogs, which has led also to this spread of this small grass And so actually that's one of the reons that's one of the ways in which we need to fix the problem. But theres another there's another serious issue here. so James, I can see you're wanting to come in and say No, I'm not at all. That's just the way my face works Well, If I can if I can just also say there's a very serious issue here as well which is that All farming on Dartmore is essentially unprofitable unless it is propped up. by public taxpayer subsidies And this is where we really get to the heart of the issue because all farms on Dartmoor getet millions of pounds in public money in order to keep farming, and that's money from you and I and from all your listeners. that we pay that in taxes And I don't have a problem with money being paid to farmers to do this. But I do have a problem when farming The farming that's done continues to damage the nature of Dartmoor And I would much rather that farmers were paid taxpayers money to restore nature on places like Dartmor. And that is essentially what natural England is trying to ask them to do. They don't have any powers to mandate any sort of colull of ponies or any other livestock. All the only tool that Natural England have at their disposal is to offer voluntary incentive payments to farmers D me. but under a new set of schemes that require a reduction in livestock raising on the m And actually, they're now offering farmers newew grants which specifically reward keeping ponies and cattle on the mor rather than sheep So it's not It's not just a misinformation. it's the polar opposite of what is being reported. becausecause the problems I mean the re wetting of the peat notwithstanding, that the overgrazing is not a consequence of the ponies being there. It's a consequence of there being too many sheep there Exactly right. It's a consequence of there being far, far too many sheep on the mor. Now, look Ponies we all love ponies. Ponies are also grazing animals. You can't get away from that fact. So it is kind of perfectly reasonable for Natural England to say when they're coming up with calculations for how many livestock you could have on them for it to be grazed in a more sustainable way, that they do factor in the thousand or so ponies that are on Dartmoore But they obviously also are very concerned, much more concerned about the tens of thousands of sheep that have beenrazing on dum for decades And this is where we get to the heart of the problem is because some farmers unfortunately, don't really want to see that change. They don't want to remove the sheep that graze, including on winter. Dartmore and they don't want to remove them. They want to carry on getting paid the same money for oldld Rpe. And this is where we get to the heart of the problem is the intransistence, unfortunately, of some interests when it comes to actually reducing unsustainable grazing on places like Dartmoore. And it was only relatively recently that the ponies got lumped in with the sheep in the sort of total calculation of how many animals are grazing on I check this. I'm not even asking you. You probably know, but I'll tell you, and that was done under the last government when I think Greg Clark was environment seecretary. So when Kemy Badenoch takes to Twitter to write, this is total madness from another sorry, when the magnificent Kemmy Badeno takes to Twitter to write, This is total madness from another unaccountable kango. The government must overrule natural England and stop it immediately. Kir Starmer is on his way to making his last act in office the shameful underfunding of our military and the mass slaughter of Dartmore ponies She has done so, while ignorant of the fact that the weird little glitch that makes it look as if ponies might be caught up in a cull that they're not going to be caught up in was a consequence of a conservative environment seecretary's decision. And she hasn't even bothered to Google Natural England Dartmoore, because if she did, she would read, reccent media coverage has suggested that Natural England has recommended a couull of ponies on Dartmoore This is categorically not true, nor is it true to suggest any scheme has been designed with the aim of achieving this. But Gy Srubsl, the lie is often halfway aroundound the world before the truth has even got its trousers Exactly right. And I think my concern with all of this is that you know, as conspiracy theories swirl on social media, as you know, politicians Iirresponsible politicians ramp it up, ramp up the temperature that you do get bad decisions made, that the government may get cold feet, that natural England might get its knuckles wrapped, that scientific advice might get ignored, that actually farmers won't get these payments that are being offered to them. to actually specifically keep ponies and cattle on the moor. And instead, you'll continue to have overgrazing on Dartmoor and Nature will continue to die and we'll all actually end up losing out. And the thing is that I wish that people like Kemmy Badenoak and Robert Genrick actually gave a toss about this stuff But I fear that they actually don't and they are just jumping on a bandwagon And then when all of this is kicking off in the background, they'll have moved on next time Madam? You know, it's the tenth anniversary of Brexit next week so I can't help reflecting upon the fact that this is what happens Gyshubs when you listen to experts Here we are guys book. The lie of the land who really cares for the countryside is out now and his next one, I think will be looking at ch Chalkland. Is that right Ghost of Chalk Country. The Ghost of Chalk Country, a lovely title. sounds like a country and Western album. It's twelve forty five. you're listening to J O'Byan. Oh, can we listen to it once more? Should we listen once more to Honest Bob Genereick's audition for Jacanori if you're of a certain age or for the CBB's bedtime story. So here's on it here's Robert Genereick, honest Bob to his mates if he had any Auditioning for Bedtime story slot on seBBs They're going to kill the ponies The government had come up with a mad plan to slaughter ninety percent of the wild ponies that graze on Darkmore, the beautiful ponies that have been there for centuries. Why Because apparently there's too much grass on Dartmoore and they want to turn it into some kind of rainforest This is an evil plan, and it needs to be stopped It'sunny, isn't? I mean, it's absolute gibberish from honest Bob, but I'll tell you what is an evil plan Painting over the murals of cartoons at a centre where unaccompanied child refugees would be housed upon their arrival in this country. That's a genuinely evil plan So not only Is he lying He is also and Forgetting that the most evil plan we've heard in UK politics in the last few years was H It is twelve forty nine c and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'd like to apologize. I feel I let you down, I let myself down, and most of all, I think I let the ponies down I should have concluded that missedinformation regarding the absolute nonsense being spouted by almost everybody, none of whom have bothered to do the most cursory of research into a so called Cull of ponies on Dartmore I should have ended it by saying, What a load of old pony shouldn't I Sorry And off we go to Makerfield where there will be a by election tomorrow. I'm probably going to say keep count Tom, willill you? I'm probably going to say, what do reckon Eleanor I'm going to say four times between now and one o'clock a full list of candidates. It's available at wbc. co d. uk Just to be on the safe side Natasha Clark is there. Tom Swarbick is there. I think Emily Mateliss is there. everyverybody's there except me I never get invited anyway. What's going on, Natasha Jose, I wish you were here. I'm outside Buz Bingo and Wiggan, which looks like it's pumping. Have you got your dollber? Have you got your dober I don't know what a dobber is. I've never been into a buzz bingo. What's a dobber? A dobber is a special felt tip thing with a big old n on it that you use to doob out the numbers on your bingo card. I got taught that at Ampleforth Well, exactly, as indeed you should, as indeed you should But yes, just about to head over into the constituency of Makerfield, which is just a stone' throw away from Wigan, It's not actually in Wigan itself. But James, we do know this could be a really consequential violge and that's why everyone's up here and we'd obviously love for you to join us if you could. Indeed, if Andy Burnham returns to Westminster and decides to challenge the Prime Minister, we of course ar Starmer has said repeatedly that he's going to fight any challenge. But yesterday I was with West Streeting giving his speech setting out his stall ahead of this crucial by election. He says If Berham wins, Stahmer must set out his timetable to resign. But again, West Streetin refusing to say that if he is going to be the one to trigger a leadership election or not. But he did tell us The eighty one MPs needed to do that. So the constituents here in Makerfields, ner point one percent of the electorate could have the power to decide the fate of the Prime Minister. And locals, I think that I spoke to when I was here last week, James are very aware of that. Some of them want to get out Kir Starmer, some of them want to get Burnham in, some of them want to keep reform out. some of them want to vote reform to give the Prime Minister a kicking. So so many different sort of aspects to take in here. hereere was a bit of a flavor of some of the thoughts of locals here in Makerfield Reform. Yeah. Okay, deffinitely. Yeah, why' do you think that? Why do I think that? Because they care about British people. They want to do well for this country, especially look after the borders. Why do you want to be vaiting for Andy Burnham He's done a lot forull Ly. He did the marina, He did the Last Sparks Village, He's done a lot in Manchester I want somebody could representashation who's got a pedigree and what we can trust store Britain. Oh yeah, why do you think that We want to our country back. Yeah. where it was because we've had nothing done no matter who we vought for Yeah. They promise you the earth and we get nothing And Joes I also spoke with the Labour MP Jon Trucket, who was out campaigning for Andy Burnnam I find people in the area saying nally We're quite pleased that we're going to be the center of attention And hopefully if we get him into Parliament and maybe even to be prrime Minister one day, you know it brings a lot of attention and pride to our area. So we're having to it's street by street, house by house, area by area. It's one of those fights that you have to fight hard, you have to convince people that there's a reason for all this. And I tell you what It most important thing for me being a northerneres is the North is going speak for Britain And James after a little bit of investigating, I did track down the reform candidate Robert Kenyon, who describes some of his previous comments being dredged up a smear campaign I think I'm ready to draw l. I've answered questions numerous times now. Is it coming up on the doorstep for your tour ever? Not really I' just put it behind you. Well the only time it's ever come up on the doorstep is when people have said, don't take any notice. know it's just a smear campign And lots of issues, different issues James coming up amongst the people I spoke to, pensions, immigration, the economy, local jobs, all of them featured. a lot of them didn't like Kstama, but a lot of them were keen on the idea of a Northern prrime Mister. Now the polling so far, obviously it's very limited because it's a constituency polling, so it usually only includes around five hundred people or so. Polling for opinion, which we've done with them for LBC has seen Labour getting around forty six percent of the vote. reform currently on around forty one percent rest Brit around seven percent. So there is the prospect and lots of people I'm speaking to say that know they think Andy Berham is doing very, very well here, reform potentially trying to keep up with them. but maybe just maybe they might be squeezed out by the Rore partarty who I think are taking a bit of those votes on the right, James What do we know about the demographics of the constituency? If the labour were to win, it doesn't lend itself to Farag's claims about Familye whatever the nonsense was, he came out after Gilton and Denton that turned out to be complete hogwash. Is it a traditional lefte leaning constituency, is it diverse? Does it have areas of multiculturalism or is it a predominantly white area Predominantly white area. It's around sort ninety to five percent white according to the census reports that I was looking at. So it's pretty ethically non diverse here. It's a slightly in between area. So between Wig and Manchester, Liverpool and there's no like sort of one main area. I think most of the time I spent was in Ashton. It's one of the places with a main high street around sort of seventy to one hundred thousand people voting in there. And yes, it is predinant Un Labour area,'s been labour since around nineteen eighty three when it was first created and Labour previously had a majority of around six thousand. Josh Simmons was the MP that gave up his seat for Andy Berham. He's pretty well liked amongst the people I spoke to, but obviously James reform we know doing really well in these sort of previously Brexit areas, lots of people feeling that labour aren't doing enough for them, feeling left behind reform got more than fifty percent of the vote in the local elections just a couple of weeks ago. So this very much is like prime Nigel Farage reform territory, but it does seem, at least according to the people I've spoken to that Brand Andy Berham is really holding up the Labour vote here. Is Farage around is he there I haven't seen him. He has been to the constituency two or three times. so he's been aroundounded about. He did a press conference, Liam Gotting, a reporter in the Northwest managed to put a question to him. I haven't seen him yet Natasha Clark, stay safe and a safe journey home live there for our Makerfield where a full list of the candidates is available at lbc. co. uk. justust to clarify one of the things you heard in one of those clips, a smear campaign Traditionally involves misinformation or lies or misrepresentations designed to malign somebody's reputation. It doesn't involve. repeating back to people things that they have previously said or posted on social media. That's called journalism also, I should share with you the full list of candidates that are standing in the other by election tomorrow in Aberdeen South. And they are. As follows, Nural Hook Ali from the Scottish Labour Party, David Ballentine from the Alliance for Democracy and Freedom or the ADF. Yorg Shelton Ekstein from the Scottish Greens, Joe Hart from Reform UK, Douglas Lumsden from the Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Mel Sullivan, from the Scottish Liberal Democrats, and Richard Gordon Thompson from the Scottish National partarty. So two by elections unfolding in the United Kingdom tomorrow. And do you know what that means Can you remember Are you familiar with the most ludicrous anomaly in British electoral law Yes, you are It means we can't talk about politics tomorrow at all in any way, shape or form until midnight which we generally manageed to do without too much difficulty. although there was that one year where I got an offc complaint uphouses, but we never ever mentioned that. We pretend that never happened and gloss over it seamlessly. It also means mystery O. It's actually what mystery O was invented for. But rarely is it more welcome than on a day when we're not actually allowed to talk about politics, both nationally and obviously locally. I would remind you that Tom Sarrick will be broadcasting live from the constituency from four o'clock today and therefore walking an even tutter tightrope than the one the rest of us walk when we talk about things by election related. We will not, however, be talking about any of it A tomorrow Do you know why that rule is in play? I don't think it's ludicrous. Do you not? No, I don't. I have heated debate. Let's have a heated debate. I think I can see why it came in when it came in. Y. Our sources of news were fairly homogeneous, weren't they?? As in the numbers of them wereinerous rather than being homogenous In broadcast terms I wonder whether in the splintered broadcast audio. But newspapers can literally put voteX on their front page And we can't even say So and so looked like winning Tow That's the bit I find ludrous is the comparison with what the newspapers say. Is it the amplification? I guess so. But newspapers depends on their circulation, doesn't it? How amplified the message is? I'm told that not everyone is listening to us. I can't leave it. Fake news. C't Lave it fake news. This isn't an Andy Murray Wins Wimbledon moment I don't know what it is couldn't agree If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global pl or the LBC app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bitits from My LBC show every day, and of course full disclosure. Downoad the official LBC app for free from your apppp store now. Tom Swwbrick with you live from Makerfield at four o'clock today, but now it's time For Sheilafol This has been a Global Player original production.