Two theaters of war

This is a Global Player original podcast Three minutes after turn and now my brain, instead of focusing on the stuff that we are going to be talking about this morning, now my brain's obsessing about the right words to use So if we eschU, I love that word, by the way, if we esew G nerd. I know that they've kind of been reclaimed by the tech literate community U They're badges that are sometimes worn with pride. If we were to eschew those words, what would we be left with in the search for people who really know what they're talking about Bffin I Bffin sounds a little bit otherworldly, doesn't it? It sort of casts you as somebody who's a little bit removed from reality a little bit. pererhaps an inhabitant of an ivory tower Bffin a geek, a nerd, a Bffin. anyyway, I don't know. You can make suggestions if you want on that. You always seem to enjoy that, you know. Sometimes I worry that you enjoy these well I suppose I do as well, these sort of semantic meanderings more than you actually enjoy the meat and drink of the programe that we put together together every wee day there's quite felicitous use of words there as well. wasn't they together together? We wouldn't have thought together together. sound right in a sentence, but they do. the programe that we put together together every day. I like that, together together. All right, I'll stop now, I promise Have a little listen in a minute to what Kir Stahmer had to say a moment ago. Just a little clip that we played in the news. You've heard it already, but I just want I want to play that to you again shortly because I have thoughts I have thoughts My first thought is we haven't spent enough time. Yeah, if we all decide that expert is the right word, I'm going to feel like a bit of a doofus, aren't I? Expert Ext But an expert means that you work in the sector. You don't necessarily need to work in the sector. Anyway I digress once again. I listen to what Kir Stahmer says this morning. I recognize, I think, more than ever, my recognition of this has grown exponentially, that the threat that technology, that social media, that many of these apps and programs pose to Humanity itself, it cannot be overestimated. We've already done it with tobacco and I mean, if we lived in a vaguely sensible universe, we'd have done it comprehensively and unanimously with fossil fuels as well. But of course we don't live in a sensible or rational universe. We live in a universe where discourse is dominated by people in pursuit of profit. so it took a very, very long time for tobacco to be universally recognized as a force for bad Young people don't believe me when I tell them that there were advertisements, I think as recently as as certainly the fifties, possibly the sixties, even maybe the seventies Wh cigarettes would be cast in adverts, not just as glamorous, but as positively healthy I don't think I ever saw a slogan that said a cigarette a day keeps a doctor away, but I would not be amazed if something similar had not appeared on billboards in the United States of America quite possibly here as well. So we do as a species as societies We do move, you know, even though it sometimes feels that we live in places where nobody ever changes their mind about anything. We do move I think often of the seatbelt band for reasons that I don't fully understand. I think as I was of an age where it seemed to me to be really notable and significant that politicians would come in and ban something that was entirely normal D driving around the place without having a seatbt and having your kids rattling around in the back of the car not strapped in. not even dreaming of having special chairs for little people for children that they would be bolted into doubly. So the chair would be bolted to the car seat and to the car and the child would be bolted So the seat that was bolted to the car, all of these things, if you were born in the nineteen seventies, I was born in nineteen seventy two, all of these things were unthink of. mean that are just absolutely extra drink driving relatively commonplace. I presume it was always illegal, but I wouldn't put my life on it Uh seat belelts in cars smoking. U cigarettes wherever you wanted We change, you know, electric cars. I know some poor souls are still labouring under the illusion that this is not a necessary and desirable transformation of normality. but goodness me. all of these things prove that when When the moment comes or when the pips squeak or when the issue becomes absolutely acute and unignnoreable, politicians can do the right thing And I think I think that Social media is going to be in that category. I think it already is for many people But I think it's clear that we're going to look back and wonder how on earth it took so long to begin to put the fires out You know to begin to put the seatbelts on to begin to ban The smoke to begin to take away the alcohol from the people driving cars, to begin to take away the petrol from the people driving cars. I think we're going to look back and see it in those spaces. And I find this really interesting because there's a social dichotomy here Because on the one hand, you've got moral panics. which always turn out to be bogus videoide didn't kill the radio star. Thank goodness Um video games have not brought our youth to their knees. albeit it might be some crossover between games and the conversation we're going to have this hour. The idea that grand Theft auto or callall of duty was going to raise generations of sociopaths has not come to pass Rap music has not rendered civilization U Reverse You know all of the moral panics over the ages over that short skirts, mini skirts and flappers. you go back far enough into the last century, there'll be all sorts of things that were votes for women Snuff Actually, no, not snough. that's bad. But all of the things that were cited as harbing as of is it hal bingers or hal bingers Keith I never know actually. It's deffinitely one of them. you're quite right. Harbingers of imminent societal collapse turn out not to have brought about societal collapse and not just societal collapse. They turned out not to be anywhere near as awful as we were told they were going to be. and part of that is the business models that we talk about every day. It's a lot easier to sell tickets for the ghost train than it is for the speed your waight machine. But part of it is also the slow journey of discovery that things are not as bad as we' being told But I think with social media there are. I met an amazing woman last week, Beban Kidron. You'll know her as a film director, whether you recognize the name or not. And in twenty twelve, she made a film. called in realal life. and realized while making it the threat that this technology posed to young people and therefore decided to stop making films and to dedicate the rest of her working life. to sounding the alarm and looking for solutions. So she's currently going through a period that I presume is fifty two percent vindication and forty eight percent better late than never lads Where the heck have you been? She now sits Baroness Kidroros. She now sits in the House of Lords, where she concers herself with matters technological almost, almost but not not quite exclusively So now we know We really, really know. We know exactly, or we certainly have little doubt about the scale of the threats that are posed And cometh the hour, Ceth the man Hm This is not an impossible challenge. These are some of the most innovative companies in the world, and I believe they can solve it. But if they choose not to, then we will act and we will change the law. becausecause when it comes to the safety of our children, standing by is not an option. Right I can't believe what I've just heard I'm not fully made up member fully paid up member of the I eight K Starmer Club But I cannot believe the flimsiness of what I have just heard. I am open to persuasion. You are more than welcome to tell me that this is not as meally mouthed and as pathetic as it sounds to me. And I don't really want to do this because you know even if it's a conservative politician, if everybody's having a pop at them, there's a little bit of my character that sort of makes me feel sorry for them wants to offer up some sort of defense. I cannot believe pathetic that sounds and so pathetic it is. I think it probably merits listening to more closely One more time This is not an impossible challenge. These are the some of the most innovative companies in the world. I believe they can solve it. but if they choose not to, then we will act and we will change the law. because when it comes to the safety of our children, standing by is not an option Unless I'm missing something significant here. The man appears to be operating in an experiential vacuum. Guess what, Sir Kia In twenty ten, they chose to do nothing In twenty eleven They chose to do nothing In twenty twelve They chose to do nothing In two thousand I could go on In fact, I might or we could hit the junction on time for the first time in liivving Mmory. they always choose to do nothing, mate. They always choose to do nothing. How many times have we sat here and said They won't do anything unless it costs them more money do it than it does to do it. They won't do anything They won't do anything at all unless they absolutely have to. And it may be that you can affect some sort of societal pressure as we saw with diversity equality and inclusion training, society became a place where companies felt that they had to actually recognize the baked in inequalities and the endemic inequities of our societies. But then people like Donald Trump end up in the White House and companies that were making all the right noises and saying all the right things, about equity and diversity suddenly abandon their plans entirely Even then, when you leave it to choice rather than legislation It's imminently and immediately reversible A change in the weather, a change in the wind, a change in the White House, and all the best laid plans of mice and men can be tossed out of the window Um in in a nanosecond. So it has to be leg. surely it has to be law He's going. to peopleull like Elon Musk and saying, o please Elon Muss. who routinely lies about and maligns and incites peopleople in this country being politely requested to stop allowing people to use his platform to create Child sex abuse images, fake child sex abuse images Oh, yes, all right, then, Prime Minister. of course I will By the way, u down with you. Mark Zucker, I mean I don't know what technologies, what platforms, I don't know the ins and the outs of it. But I do know this Without legislation Nothing's going to happen. And without legislation, even if something happens It happens until The weather changes. orr the government changes. if there's no legislation there, do you think, for example In the not far from impossible prospect of Nigel Farage becoming Prime Minister Do you think he's going to say to the people that have either we either know have given him millions of pounds secretly, except not that secretly, or the people who have given him millions of pounds secretly that we don't actually know about? What do you think' going to turn around to them and sound terribly sorry chaps. Thanks for all the money, but I'm going to make your life a lot harder now I'm going to make your profits smaller. I'm going to insist that you spend money on protecting our children. Of course he isn't So without legislation, this seems to me to be an almost entirely pointless exercise And for some reason Maybe he was told that it was technologically impossible to do what was promised, but they were briefing journalists yesterday A ban was set to be announced today, a ban on social media for under sixens. The Children' Tsar, in fact, has been calling for a ban on social media for under eightens to extend it still further. The Times newspaper reports on its front page this morning that the Prime Minister preparing to announce a ban on harmful social media platforms. They might have spun what they were told. or they might been slightly misled or they might have misunderstood, or they might have been told that that was what was going to happen and then it didn't happen And then it didn't happen. Sventeen minutes after ten is the time Um So There are two elements to this, aren't there? there is the The thing that we can't know until it actually happens, but we're pretty sure we do know i. e, none of these platforms are going to do anything substantive or meaningful or expensive unless they absolutely have to You, by the way, your children, by the way, are the commodity here If you don't know this already, then please don't shoot the messenger, but it is It's their attention that has had the dollar signs attached to it So anything that reduces the amount that they use. this technology is a bad thing from the point of view of the people providing the technology Absolutely anything that reduces the amount of time they spend on there is a bad thing. So if they're spending all their time on there, looking at images, I'm not being light hearted now. I don't know if this merits a trigger warning, but I'm going to say something difficult Looking at images of children self harming and being told that it's some sort of glamorous subculture, looking at images of eating disorders and being told that it's a somehow desirable life goal. lookingoo at pornographic images, potentially even of each other. anythingything that reduces the amount of time that these people, these children spend on these platforms is as kryptonite people that own the platforms is to Superman And I don't think Kir Starmer understands that I honestly do, please. and if you don't, things will happen, such things I know not, but they shall be the terror of the earth He say I'll give you three months to sort it out. But if you don't, then o, something bad's going to happen M So I can do the politics of it and I think I can do the sociology of it and I can do the behavioral science of it, but I can't do the technology of it. I need your help with this I need your help with this. How? I mean, so because that's the bit we can answer, hopefully, or you can, I can't None of us can answer will this work without legislation? although I suspect ninety nine percent of us are shouting no into the Eether How easy is it For these companies to Siously, limit access to the bad stuff And that is my question for you doors this morning, early doors this morning, first things first this morning. And listen, I don't want to I've already stereotyped you enough by suggesting that we shouldn't call you a geek or a nerd and you might not like being called a boffin. so I'm just going to call you an expert Somebody knowledgeable, you might be too modest to think of yourself as an expert. You might not be the sort of person that rings a radio station ever let alone on a regular basis But I just want to know, Snapchat Twitter, Facebook Instagram, all of it. how easy would it be for the human beings that own these companies Oder their stars. order their staff Protect children That's what I want to know. What would it look like? how feasible would it be? how expensive would it be? And as a second course for putting today the question of whether or not they are likely to do that or indeed anything unless they are compelled to how easy would it be to protect our children from the Horrors of social media platforms in particular and technology in general. But we'll start with the social media platforms because it's easier to get into. All right, hit the numbers now. you will get through. , three, four, five sixzo sixzer nine seven three. becausecause I don't do conspiracy theories. until I do And it looks to me like he was minded to announce some sort of ban And someone got to him Tw two minutes after ten is the time. becausecause I don't know I mean, I actually don't know. I presume that harmful social media is easily removed from the diet that our children have being fed on an almost daily basis But I am not an expert in this field, and I listen to the people who have been charged with leading this country. And they seem today to have bottled the notion of delivering that sort of ban of removing this sort of content and it makes me wonder two things. Is it an act of cowardice Or is it an act of technological inevitability? Has Kir Starmer bottled this Or have they decided that it can't be done Ohzero three, four, five, sixzero six zero nine seven three because for the third time I just want you to listen to what he actually said And I want you to tell me that it is not, as I fear Pathetic This is not an impossible challenge. These are the some of the most innovative companies in the world I believe they can solve it. But if they choose not to, then we will act and we will change the law because when it comes to the safety of our children Standing by is not an option What would it involve? What would the companies need to do? What would the There's a problem in this country. I don't obviously it's not going to be true in Silicon Valley, but there's a problem in this country partly linked to the sort of negative relationship with mathematics, that the idea that we don't think it's cool to be into maths and we don't think it's cool to be into tech And part of that, I think, feeds into the idea that we actually don't know whether or not It is possible or whether or not it is easy or whether or not it is feasible for a government to remove the bad stuff. In Australia, I think they went the whole hog and banned kids from the platforms entirely. The message is there are mixed. and of course we rely so much on social media or social media adjacent commentary now probably going to struggle to get an unbiased analysis of what has g on in Australia. But that's not what Kistama is proposing. He is politely asking the social media companies to look after our children and He doesn't seem to know He's a Why they haven't already whether or not they are likely to Mm. why he wouldn't just introduce the legislation that's necessary to prevent them from doing this or to prevent our children from accessing this stuff Overnight And that is what I really need your help with. And normally on a day like today, I can talk until eleven o'clock from various different angles about various different ramifications, but I've got nothing left. I honestly don't know. I presume that if a gambling application, for example, can introduce proper age verification, then so can social media. And I don't really care about loopholes or swing arounds. I don't care that it won't be perfect because if ever the argument that we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good applies, then it applies in places like this. And then we have the politics of it. Did it sound to you as it did to me, regretfully that Kir Stama just bottled something quite significant twentyenty six minutes after turn is the time. Hi, James. right, Simon. It's so disappointing and half hearted again from Starmer Listen, the problem here now is if you're a fully paid up member of the StAarMmer Defense Front and that's fine. I admire your loyalty You can't just reach for the defenses here that are undetailed. you have to explain why it's a good idea not to just order them to do it. Instead of saying, please, would you mind doing this thing that you could have done ten years ago? you could have done five years ago, you could have done yesterday. You haven't done today, you probably won't do it tomorrow, but if you haven't done it within three months, then we're going to do something Simon goes on what happened to moving away from incremental change and towards bold ion which I think is a really valid point. And Helen says the complaints won't bother. the companies won't bother with filtering the bad stuff, they would either block any internet traffic from the UK because that's easier, or force people to scan ID before logging in or creating accounts The problem with that is anyone can go on Google images and find an ID of someone over eighteen and upload that gain access. this is the question that I need answers to is how feasible is it? How easy is it to sit here and say Um You can't do this anymore for the companies to say, what would be the best examples you can think of where companies have been compelled by law to limit or reduce their own profits, to reduce their own the amounts of money that they make You'd sort of think of I've tried it with pornography. I don't even know whether that's worked or not. And that was for over eighteenens. That's age verification I know it went off a cliff fairly quickly overnight, but I imagine people are finding their kicks and getting their thrills down slightly different avenues Yeah, you think of cigarettes, tobacco companies essentially being ordered to cut off revenue streams overnight and they immediately pop back up with vapes and other alternatives. But the principle of expecting hugely profitable companies to limit or minimize their own profits seems to me to be pie in the sky. They will not do it until they are forced to which is why I'm today leaning towards Bottled it And what he's announced, what he has sought is what some MPs are describing as part of his so called legacy era. is objectively pathetic Angela is in C commth and Angela, what would you like to say? Hello, James. I'd like to say two things. The first thing is I think smartphones need to be banned children under the age of sixteen. So that's easy to do, right? I mean, you won't stop all children from having them, but that would be law. so you wouldn't be able to buy them like you can't bu alcohol or cigaret. Absolutely. They can have a normal phone, but it cannot have any access. Yeah if I go out and buy a phone as a fifty four year old, I can just give it to my daughter tonight That's true. But if somebody was to stop home and find out that She was using who's going to get punished? her or me But it was still with a cigarette When we had cigarettes we weren't allowed to smoke but sixteen year olds still did Yes. and shops get prosecuted for selling them to six deep for fifteen year olds, but not not if somebody no one's ever been prosecuted for giving their child a cigarette, have they This is true, but I still think it was still seented Yeah. And it's a massive kick in the profits, which is of course Yeah, absolutely. and it would go down because it would see because at the moment, you knowce When teenagers get of age, they start to believe that parents don't really know when life has changed and we're all old fashioned Do you see what I mean So it's really hard to you know for parents toerm that our children didn't have any phones So My sixteen year old got his first phone after his BCSE. He got a job and he bought his own phone But up until that point, no phones. And as for the second point I don't know, obviously I haven't got the technological awareness. Well I'm supposed to be speaking exclusively to Bffins today, Angela. So now we've got two non Bffins on the radio, which is you know, it's very pleasant, but we're not delivering O our manifesto promises is Gone, carry on. they must know how they must surely know how to prevention, they will do. It's just lucrative for them not to And will they will not stop know, my daughter, when I gave her an MP three player when she was twelve, and I made sure it had nothing on it found a way to get on some sort of kids chat room Fortunately, I found out, and it was disgusting. some t But but neither of us know how hard it is to actually force the companies to close that door as it were Which is why we need the boffins and the boffins at the moment are thin on the ground. I have to tell you, is that because it's a difficult question to answer? or is it because you're too busy writing code contribute to this humble radio programe. I just want to know very, very simply How easy would it be for the companies to do what Kir Stara has politely asked them to do this morning three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. and this you don't need particular expertise for, you probably just need to have your eyes open and cursory grasp of how business seems to work in this world at the moment How likely are they to do it unless they absolutely have to And then a little side order of politics. Has Kir Stara fluffed something this morning, bottled something this morning that was yet another entirely avoidable H' Dominic Ellis with your headline. Okay, ten thirty four is the time. I'm going to remind you of the date, not because I'm weird, but because I think it's significant to what follows. So it's june eighth, twenty twenty six. Let me take you back if I may to The sixteenth of april twenty twenty six, when Starmart tells social media firms thingsings can't go on like this, is one of the headlines that I just found turnurn outs two months ago. Starmer tells social media firms, things can't go on like this. Spoiler alert ten days later, UK government moved to delay social media ban faces pushback in lords Social media executives, five days previously deny platforms are inherently addictive to children. Of course they do. spoiler alert They're lying Again, twenty eighth of April, mininisters open minded on shape of UK social media limits, Phillipson says There is a distinct sense here and these are headlines under one subject heading, a social media band that have appeared in the space of ten weeks under the same government. Labour, this is the twenty sixth of May set to announce crackdown on social media for children within weeks Well, they haven't They ha't announced crackdown. They've announced a polite request to the social media companies to start protecting our children from the worst excesses on there. And there are two questions. Number one, why aren't they being tougher? and number two, how hard would it be to be tough I don't know the answer to either of those questions, but I've got a horrible feeling the answer to the first one is because they are for some reason Cowardly frightened. Jess Phillips, I think, put it brilliantly when she resigned, saying that she'd been trying to get Kissed Amor to be bold for over a year. and also claimed that she and civil servants had got A decent plan in place. so why is Kirarma not implementing it Danels in Manchester, Daniel what would you like to say Hello there. Yeah, just on the topic of A you were buffing I wouldn't like to call myself a Bffin, but I am a software developer. I do work for a large tech company. so. So I don't think a true Bffin would ever call himself a Bffin. Only non Bffins would describe themselves as Bffin. G on. They well be tr. I mean, in my opinion and I have a fair amount of experience, this is absolutely possible for images like this to be stopped. However when you start thinking about the details, it does get more complicated. For example, we if we were talking about text messages, for example, and I must add that I've only seen the headline of what what Kaseam has said today? don I don't know if it's aimed at a particular technology or whether it's just social media. But for example, if it was He's saying that tech companies like Apple and Google must activate built in features or implement technical solutions to detect and block nude images for children on new and existing smartphones. So that would be Well, I don't know why I'm trying to tell you. I'm just reminding you what he's said. I don't understand. that's great The ramifications, but you do Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So in my mind, one of the complicated factors in that is that this does have to be done at a device level because unless we're happy for tech companies to read all of our text messages, which they obviously claim that they do not and everything is encrypted. U Do they claim that? I mean, WhatsApp does, but do I mean if I send a text message to Keith on my phone to him Theyre no one's reading that are they? mean no' claiming that's inccrypt. No, well again, it depends on the technology. So if you are if you're say on an iPhone and you're messaging iPhone to iPhone, you're probably using Message, which is which is a equent Yeah's That's when it goes blue. Yeah, absolutely. Whereas an SMS is different But yeah, I believe that IMessage should also be encrypted as well as WhatsApp So yeah, you you're going to have to have something on the on the device level. But there's there's a difference between something that would Tgger a trip wire, as it were, a technological trip wire and somebody human reading my secret plans to take over LBC. Do you see what I mean? An alerting I wouldn't be compromised by someone seeing all my text messages, but if I was sending pornographic images and I was registered as being underage, then an alarm would go off metetaphorically speaking That's quite straightforward, surely I guess it, but again, it still depends where that where that is done. So I still because once once the messages go out and they're encrypted, the only way to see what's in them is to decrypt them. Right. So at that point at that point you've sort of lost that level of security How o that's really. So do you think that could be a reason for caution from the Prime Minister And I mean Potentially,es. because I guess it depends. got we've got to think about that in the way that it's in the way that it's imp sry yeah, the way that it's implemented. I mean, ultimately I do believe that it can be done. And you know, fairly often, working in this sort of sector for a long time.es. when the company wants something done It's got to get done But they've got to want it to be done and they're not going to do it,. What do you I mean I'm tempting you off pce a little now, but I mean how likely are they to do anything unless they have to? If it does reduce activity online and therefore profit therefore. I would really like to say that they that they that they would like to. I mean, I've worked for some I work I've worked some great companies And I would like to think that you know these are not all bad people. And by the way, I should add that I also want there to be a ban for social media and smartphones, et cetera. That's where I sit on the matter. But nonetheless, these are not all bad people in these companies and I would would like to think that they would do it. However There is always going to be a lot of work that makes money And that work is always going to be the work that is at the forefront, I think, unless one of these companies wanted to take a stand and say, no, no, we're going to do this, and we're going to do good job. And that takes away camouflage for everybody else as well. And I think I think if one company was to do that then it could be little a little cascade in effect and then we get and then we get others doing it and So it is, it is. I mean, they're talking about built in features or technical solutions to detect and block nude images for children, that's doable I think so, yeah, absolutely, because would that would be at the device level. So you know, there's already so much running on on a smartphone you know, I think that would be I think that would be possible. I'd be I'd surpred my s you couldn't be. It's a relatively small part of the problem as well, isn't it? Because you know, the eating disorders, the self harm the incitements, all the other the race I mean all the other stuff that's on there is not necessarily touched by this, but what they do today could be Expanded tomorrow, Daniel, thank you. And therefore we have to perhaps timidity is a kind of word than cowardice. We have to tick the timidity box when it comes to the question of why the government appears to have is it oscillated or vaccillated? or quite possibly both again. There's going to be a ban, except there isn't. Robin's in Morvn, lovevely part of the world. Robin, what would you like to say? Well good morning, James. It's nice to speak to you. First I've called you in, but I have listened to flight all that's very kind of you. It's not necessary. You can ring in having never heard a single word I've said before, but you're very very welc try. Well it's a problem that's been around for a very, very long time, right from the start of the internet. And it was solved in inverted commerce by America Online, AOL. Yes and they produce something called a garden And within that, they've got total control and It worked because the internet was quite small that stage. I'm talking about nineteen eighties's early nineteen network when all started Trouble is people decided they wanted to go outside the garden. Yes and they went on to the rest of the internet The problem we've got is identification. And so while you've got dad looking over and saying, No, you can't do that, works fine. I slightly off the way for it, but you'll see what it happens. A few years before I was an ICT teacher. I said of ICT at Hanley Castle. and I had a meeting with one of the exam board reps who came around saying, we want to put the exams online Yes. I said, notot going to work. He said, Ohh yes, it will. We'll have all the guards in place to make sure that it is pupiled James online. and we're not going to have Daniel look it over his shoulder saying that That it how? If you're working at home and you're on the computer Who else is looking over your shoulder? H you log on James logs on to his school account. Moves away from the computer, his brother sits down and answers all the questions. But this is letting the perfect be the enemy of the good know It's not going to be watertight and foolproof, but it's feasible for the companies to, for example, recognize certain types of images, know that they're occurring on a device that's registered to someone under sixteen and not let them make their way through through the sort of u Network, not leave one phone and head towards the other, or not arrive at the next phone, even if it leaves the first phone I don't see how that would be possible because I could partially my phone. How would they know this But I mean you could say that about anything. I could get a fake ID and go and buy alcohol, but we still welcome the ban on under eighteenens buying alcohol, don't we? Aly Yes. We don't say there's no point having the ban because fake ID is both very sophisticated these days and be very easy to get That is true, but the problem with the computer system is you're saying how many people do you want to be able to access it? Yeah. If the material is on the internet and it is And as an IC teacher, I know that very well because I've seen it. I had to check it out myself in order to know of course what they were doing That was my job as home head of department So I'm aware of the fact that kids will get rounded. And also I reach somewhat lazily for gambling websites at this point, but of course that's not helpful because the gambling website is pursuing an actual exchange of funds. So they're going to put things in place that allow them to continue making money Banning children from gambling websites might technically deprive them of an income stream from fifteen year old horse racing enthusiasts. But it's very different from stuff that you don't have to pay to see Putting putting things in place to keep children away from that is a very different proposition It is. and the problem is and people say we'll just ban pornraphic images. How do you define pornographic unity? Well we jump off that bridge and we come to it, Robin, I think. I mean Well for under sixteenens at least, you just mean know I know what you're doing well, maybe you're not, but I'm thinking of biology textbooks now and how they might tell H and E magazine for the House Journal of Naturists and I think it was filed on the top shelf in W H Smith when I was a child but was not technically pornography. I take your point, but again I'd file that bit of your contribution under Qibble rather than U serious. objection, but the other bits are serious and I don't know. mean I mean maybe we're being unfair on Kistam The probleblem is everybody got very excited about the Australian social media ban, but that was a ban on everything. That was a ban on letting children get on these platforms. and a lot of children are no longer on these platforms and quite a lot of children are still on them or are on a new platform that has somehow circumvented is another great word, isn't it? that has somehow circumvented That's the word I've been searching for since ten o'clock thisning since I first said loopholes I've been trying to get the word circumvent out of the back of my brain. and I don't know. This is the point Robyin makes brilliantly. Just because you can circumvent something doesn't mean you shouldn't have it there. You know, someone might be able to charm a bouncer into a nightclub, but you don't abolish bouncers as a consequence of Somebody circumventing the security But we still don't know really how easy it would be to do the things Kirst Aarmer has talked about today. and I mean love him or lohe them. He hasn't done much He has announced that the government wants tech firms to prevent children from sending and receiving explicit images. and that, as far as I can tell and or recall, That is pretty much it. And he's given them three months too implement the changes. What would the changes look like? zero three four five six zo six zero nine seven three and why doesn't he just make it law It's ten forty seven. It's ten to eleven. KS Amor wants tech firms to prevent children from sending and receiving explicit images. We will do If the technology is that, if it's easy to do it, it could have been done ten years ago Questions about why it wasn't will have to be answered by people who were in charge ten years ago. But if you're asking them politely to do it today, then the fact that they didn't do it yesterday seems to me to be rather important We will become the first country in the world where it is impossible for children to take, share or view naked pictures on their devices which again, I think Robin was touching on this with the definition of pornography. U I don't know. I want it to be a brilliant idea and I want it to work, but it just doesn't feel complete to me this morning and it feels unduly timid as well. What do you think? Carl's an exitor to Carl, What what would you like to say First all, I liked to say, I am a Bffin. I hate to say that. I got my first degree in technology in nineteen eighty seven, I got my master's in nineteen ninety one and I got a PhD in the mid nineties in this and I've worked in this industry all the way through. Perfect. I've also worked for government in multiple different places, helping advise on legislation and everything like this. Fantastic. So, my question is, you dec You're here with the answers, Carl. Okay. my answer is my answer is it's impossible to define what social media is. Yes If you look at anything that we use, so you look at Canva, Acut, Figma, Mirro, scratch, replete, GitHub, Google Docs, Microsoft Fortnite. Radblock. I know that one. I know that. Minecraft Xbox Discord, WhatsApp, teelegram, Messenger Vinted, Depop Gumre you reading Yeah I actually wrote myself a list. Its good because you can start. I get the pictures. Okay. Okay. Every single one of those can be used as a social media application. Every single one of them can be used to share explicit pornography material or material you do not want children to see. So if I'm buying something off you on Vinted, I have a line of communication to you that is open, I can send you a pornraphic picture So I can put a message on Vintage that says I have the following things and then have a chat with you about that thing in any way So there's nothing Okay, so let's actually that.'s mean but that doesn't, I don't think So undermine the whole ambition. Okay, I'm a fifteen year old. Yes. and I've heard from my friends that if I go onto this vinted item, I can have this chat. M maybe leave vinted out of it now because they're not going to be very happy about this and I don't have the knowledge I can go on to eBay and have that don't say any companies. Just just say I can go on an online retailer, an eailer a retailer that has any form of messaging between the purchaser and the supplier can be used in this way.. Any tool like Google Docs or Microsoft, all the big tools can be used in this way I use slack every day in my business. Brilliant tool. notot going to think. but I can use that to talk to my children. and my children are older they're thirty and thirty two But also, I could have used it when there were fifteen which means that anybody else could use it when they were fifteen We've got multiple gaming platforms. They all use Roblox, Fortnite, Minecraft and everything like that. All of that can be used as social media. How do you frame legislation that says All of them must block children's access. Well, he's not. I mean, in his defense, I think he may have preempted that objection, which many lay people would not have understood until you had just explained it so perfectly because he's going after Apple and Google who must activate built in features to detect and block nude images on any device So he's saying that A technology provider must do that now. It's the landlords He's going after the landlords rather than and you've pointed out that there's lots and lots of different retailers, but he's going after the landlords, isn't he? Okay, so let'ss just think about that then. Yes. If I use a Google phone, Yes, I can have many, many, many different versions of the Google application on that phone. I'm not restricted to any one of them And perfect this is perfect as the enemy of the good, is it? You're being loopholes and circumventing? No. No I'm sing here the L sounded like a teacher then when you said no, you went no haven' he I haven't heard that tone of voice in a while. Carry on Sorry I'm not a teacher.'m just are now man who's done this. You are now, Carl, Go on, Car. Okay, so if you take a Google application and the Google phone, there are many, many different versions of that application out there and you can change it as much as you want My fifteen year old, if I had a fifteen year old. go on could go onto a version of the Google phone downownload the Google phone app, I think it's called Android and a version of Android thought has been modified to allow them to do it. How can you make Google an Android responsible for somebody who has modified other features. I can do it on an iPhone as well. you're a buffin. Yeah, but my fifteen year old, when he was fifteen, He certainly now could have done it at that time against anything else. And we had lots of conversations about it. about about what you could do. It's not the fact that I'm a bffing that can do. If one person can do it It can be put somewhere on the internet that anybody else can do it It's not that I know how to do it I could do it. It's the fact that I could publish it so that other people could use it. And then well where does the legislation go then? Well, there isn't any legislation at the moment. And maybe we're working out why is that he's going to ask these companies to to do it themselves and they'll be able to say we have done it and then was them wash their hands of the consequences that you're describing. And here's my quite possibly naive response Um It would simply be that the problem you describe and I have absolutely no reason to think that it's not real. So the problem you describe while real would not be significant in the great scheme of things. It's a bit like you can't ban a fifteen year old from driving a car But it's still against the law. When I say ban you can ban them from driving a car, but you can't stop them from until you've got sort of fingerprint recognition. And then I think, respectfully,ering me and say that oh it's very easy to hack fingerprint recognition and I'd say, well, that's not a reason not to have the My nameace. It's how do you frame the legislation I looked at it and I looked at it. and since she started this thing, I went away and I started to read a whole load of stuff to go, well, how can I frame this legislation? and then I looked at it and said, well, what would be included in this legislation? I came up with a uch a massive list. I thought, well, The legislation will have But it's the device. It's the device not the tenant. It's the landlord, not the tenant. And the loopholes you've described are obviously real. I mean, is this just a difference of opinion on whether or not they would constitute a sort of undermining of the whole project? I just don't think they would I think they would undermine the whole project because The mom the moment you say do it at a hardware level, can't you How? I don't know. You can't someomeone will be able to hardardware is just bits and bobs Just bits and bit nots and zeroos. Jess Phillips said they had remedies in place. Jess Phillips said they had remedies in place. so she either doesn't nonsense. That's a pretty strong word. Okay. I'm quite happy to sit with Jeff Phllz and say, show me the remedies that are in place and I will tell you why that's nonsense. I'm that confident that it's nonsense because age verification works H verification does work at a software level. Yeah but not a hardware level No So hardware, you can't hardware only works on something. I think you're talking I think you may be too much of a Bffin. I don't know. I know that sounds a little bit ungrateful given that you are a bonafide a Bffin. But you you ask you want Bffin. No I do. I just think your objections might be academic.. No I don't, I don't have a view yet. I'm genuinely confused. I just the objections, if I've understood the objections that you're making, I have two thoughts. Number one, they are precisely the objections that Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk would make, which makes me suspicious Glad I got that right. And number two, if these loopholes exist, then it doesn't from where I'm sitting, constitute reasons not to implement it anyway because some people who slip through the net do not do not demolish the efficacy of the net. Why do we not put all our effort into teaching and working with children into why this is a bad idea? what's going on? reason the same reason we don't let them buy alcohol legally or buy cigarettes legally or drive cars legally because you can spend a month of Sundays or a hundred million years trying to explain to them why they shouldn't do things, But it is generally and historically much more effective simply not let them I can understand that. becausecause it's true But I'll say Not buying So that's why. So that's why and I like legislation Not buying alcohol is an easy piece of legislation. If this has any alcohol content isn't. I know a fifteen year old with a beard. He's got an ideD that is absolutely copper bottomed. I mean all of these loopholes do not make the law a bad idea. I didn't say the loophole made the law a bad idea. What I said was the law is easy to frame. don't. I mean I this law in a way that can be actually legislated and I will go absolutely one hundred percent. And that could be why he hasn't announced a law today because he is aware of your reservations. But again, I come back to one of my reservations is the fact that you sound almost as if you were lobbying for Martin Zuckerberg and And Elon Musk and you concede that point. And I don't know that I trust I suppose stopped clocks are wr right twice a day, but I don't trust the positions that would be adopted by the people who are making all of the benefits and making all of the profits and exploiting all of our children and claiming, well, there's nothing we can do about it, Gv Hs in the air? I don't know. and that's why the subject is so interesting, but I suspect that you have raised a very valid point, which quite possibly explains the current continuing absence of legislation whichich leaves us in the entirely unsatisfactory position of joining Kursed Armour and crossing our fingers that this company voluntarily does the impossible thing It's four minutes after eleven. It was a bit slow to start this conversation. so I'm going to continue it for a little bit longer. It's almost certainly the greatest Social issue of our age, I think. And if it wasn't technology, if it was chemical If we discovered, for example, that you know, something that all our children have been eating was poisoning them or hypnotizing them, or robbing them of agency, or doing things to their mental health that are hideous, then we would have no problem whatsoever with calling for legislation. and I don't know. Would a loophole be? a yeah, but you know, you can find the recipe on the internet and you can still make your own. That's not an argument against stopping shops from selling them. I like an analogy a lot. you know I do, but sometimes they fall apart before I get to the end of them and I thought this one might, but so far so good So if they were selling something that we thought was harmpless when they started selling it, I wanted to talk about Percy Piggs, but that wouldn't be fair on Markxs and Spencer's. So they're selling something lovely that we all thought was lovely, and we all gave it to our children And it wasn't around when we were kids, so we weren't, you know completely clear on what it said on the box or what the ingredients were. everyone else was doing it and they all seemed very happy. So we all gave it to all of our children. And then a few years later some people started saying, Ohh, I'm a bit worried about that. It seems to be turning all our children into zombies You know, again, I use the word lightly. Um And everyone goes, Oh, don't be ridiculous. And anyway if you are turning into a zombie, then it's your fault or it's bad parenting. So no, you can't blame the Percy Pigs, but that wouldn't fair on Martz and Speners You can't blame the think of a name. you can't blame the toot sweets Nice little chitt, chitty bang bang knob there for the fans. You can't blame the toot sweets. Everyone likes toot sweets. We've been giving our children toot sweets since Since they were invented, we've not had any problems with toot sueites. and then someone pops up and says, I think the toot sueites are turning all our children into zombies And you go, donon't be ridiculous. And then you begin to notice that something is happening to our children. This sounds like a science fiction novel Something's happening to the children in Salem, Massachusetts. Something's happening to the children. somethinghing's happening to our children. There's a million of them that haven't got jobs or in educ they've just dropped out of Society almost, somethingomething's happening to our children. theirir mental health problems are going through the roof. somethingomething's happening to our children. What's the biggest thing that's changed In the course of our children's lifimes compared to our lifetimes O I don't know. Is it skkyportsough? It's not Is it Toot sweeds But it's a toot sueite is something you can buy and bite. You can see it, you can feel it, you can touch it, it's tangible. It's fungible, if that's a word. It's a toot suite And then they say, well, we've got to stop people selling tooth sweets. And no one would say, o you can no one ever says, o, there's no point banning tobacco because you can grow your own. Thankks to climate change. You can probably grow it in Kiddemminster these days.body banned no one says, Oh the ban on cannabis is pointless because you can grow you're right. There's a million different reasons why the ban on cannabis may not be the right thing to do. You won't be able to get you'll still be able to get it if it's bann. In fact, drugs are the best argument of all against aren't you? Oh, you'd still be able to go, well, let's unban everything then Because drug dealers still exist, we should legalize all drugs Because you can circumvent a technological ban upon something, we should legalise all pornography. We should let children send nude images to each other from the age dots. Do you see what I mean? this analogy is it working for you Working for me I wish I' thought of it at ten o'clock So you say we've got to ban the tooth sueites and then Kir Starmer comes along and says we're going to ask all the shops to stop selling tooth sueites And if they don't then they're going to be for the high jump. I cannot as yet specify how high but it will be three months from now. and okay, talk about Talk about a reverse ferret What if it works Well if all the companies go for heaven's sake, let's just do what we can now before we have' let's get in front of it. It's good PR. And then I've got the problem of of course a change in government. If for example, you had a prime minister who was secretly sponsored by foreign based billionaires, then obviously the interests of foreign based billionaires are going to be prioritized over and above you or your children Let's jump off that bridge when we come to it So you ban the people from selling the tooth sues But because it's technology and you need a buffin to explain it And some Bffins will explain it from the same side of the argument as the people who own the platforms and make all the money. you kind of feel unconfident in your own conviction D don't know can you ban the sale of two sueets? Well why they get two sweets on the black market? They'll still be getting two sweets. I mean, if they really want to get twooth sweets, they're going to get to sweets. Yeahes, so what? What you do with legislation is create an environment, a context of prohibition where something is not allowed. I don't know that you can ever one hundred percent remove something from circulation if human beings are capable of generating it, either technologically, physically or even mentally, it's like thought crimes. But you create a context of prohibition that is not allowed and the hardware The phones, the tablets can be created with that ban in place. And then yeah, you might be able to go online and find a loophole. You might be able to circumvent it using Um, Witchcraft. I mean, sort of, you know, geekery, Bffinness But if the context is one of prohibition, then The whole mood changes The whole mood changes caautiously, ten minutes after eleven, maybe this will work. Ohz three four five six zero six zero nine seven three Marks in Brighton, Mark, what do you reckon Hey, James, how you doing? I'm all good. How are you? I'm good. Did you see the Trump interview with the woman with the lady? whoo's I'll play it for you in a minute. I I'm I'm gonna check it out. I'll play it for you in a minute. I overdosed on Trump. but let me say this to you. G on. If I had to bet betweenween a politician doing something and a fifteen year old kid doing something, my money's on the kid It's as simple as that. Kids will always find a way to circumvvent stuff and it's not just going to be a few of them, it's going to be a lot of them people don't realize is that social media at its root is a way for kids to communicate with each other. That's why you had all those kids going all over those beaches during the last break. because they communicate with each other through social media. Now I will admit it is frighteningly easy to access a foreign site Any you got a you got a laptop in front of you No,' I've got computers in front of me. and I could type something into the search engine now. Maybe not on a business computer, because the fire guards in place But I tell everybody knows that you're telling the truth Yeah. I mean, and the thing is Kids always find a way and you know, somebody just talked about drug dealers. Drug dealers exist because they always stay one step ahead of the law. Yeah, but nobody ever says we should legalize all drugs because drug dealers exist, Mar. This is my point. Don't, no, no, James, don't say that because it's not true. I just did. There are plenty of people who say well liibertarians and what have Well, some fairly prominent people in the states have there have been political candidates who run on that. So we need to come at it from the other end of the telescope and remove the appetite from our children by training them differently and raising them Well, see, the first thing is lead by example If your parents are doing are accessing certain things, through which a kid by looking at their parents' screen can access, then the parent has to start looking at their social media use differently. And I'm not talking about porn here I'm just talking about consumption. And addiction, you're talking about addiction. because it's all very well, us saying, God, look at all our children turning into zombies because they're sucking on these tooth sueetses all the time. says Dad sucking on a tooth sweite. Heyit, wait a minute Jan, James, you gota answer me. What is a tooth sweet? I've never It's something like well, it features in chitty, chitty bang bang It's a sw that's also a whistle start featuring that famous cockney, Dick Van Dyke But it also but it is also my analogy for what we would be saying about these technologies if they were tangible if you could pick them up and hand them to. And you're absolutely right. and it actually still works, this analogy with your contribution because you're talking about addiction and all the adults are going, Oh look at these kids. they're all so addicted while sucking on a toot suite or while accessing their own social media, or while using it to access unpleasant images or to communicate with their friends and their family. So it's a bizarre conversation about addiction being conducted By addicts about younger addicts Exactly. And the thing is, I mean when I was a kid, when I was a very young kid, which was back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth my watchword was, rules are meant for me to break. Yes And I would always try and find a way to circumvent virtually any rule I didn't like. And believe me, there are millions of kids all over this planet that look at things the same way I used to when I was a kid. know And I used to be of that view. and I don't know what's happened to me since But just because old James, got No because I haven't I'm not where you are now. I don't look at things and think because they can be circumvented, they are pointless Oh no, I'm not saying anything's pointless. I'm just saying there are people out here who will find pointless or not a way to get around something. But that's not a reason not to do it. It's a bit like saying there's no point building walls because someone will climb over it But see, here's the thing. G got my analogy you're dropping now. This is fantastic. cararry on. Eventually things end up changing. Give you an example. in America Marijuana was a Cceived as a demon drug in the nineteen thirties. They banned it all over the country and there were a lot of raac Rf for Madness. Rf for Madness. Have you ever seen that movie? I have seen that movie actually Yes Yeah. Balkers Yeah, and part of the reason, although they didn't say it was a guy named Anslinger, but that's a long story. The bottom line was they were afraid what marijuana would do to black people. That's why they banned it And see, the thing about that is eventually that changed to the point that you could walk and my daughter went to school in Colorado You walk into a marijuana store in Colorado, They have it laid out like a supermarket And Colorado hasn't, you know died. As a matter of fact, they make a boatload of money. The law changed. The law changed, the access didn't. I I'm 'm probably more concerned about social media usage than I am about marijuana usage So your parallels work up to a point. But the addiction argument and the negativity, the negative impact on life I think demands you can't just sit and wait for society to recognise and change. It needs to be led by laws Also, just on a philosophical level less level Ms, I always enjoy talking to you When you were a young rebel in the day And and and like I see you as a young James Dean being being asked, what are you what what are you rebelling against? And you'd go, what have you got What if there hadn't been any rules Well then what would you have done with yourself all day? If there hadn't been any rules to rebel against, If there hadn't been any walls to climb, what would you have done all day Enjoy myself. And you thought you were at the times I've got to go. I've got to go to the break. We'll talk soon. and I'll play that clip before the end of this hour. It'sact mean, how many times have I sat here and said to you, It's not hard do understand perceive necessity of maintaining access to public figures. all right? Well let me say that, let me rephrase that. I do understand the perceived necessity of maintaining access to deranged liars in positions of power. whether they're leading political parties or entire countries. Some journalists, most journalists, almost all journalists cannot afford to say, oh well, I don't suppose I'm ever going to get another interview with them again That's not true, actually. Organizations can't afford to say that. Lots of journalists can, because of course it's only a tiny number of journists that will be invited into the White House or a tiny number of journalists that will be invited to tickle Nigel Farrage's tummy if you want to talk about the pound shop version that we have on this side of the Atlantic. And how many times do I say to you, there's only two things you have to do You insist on evidence for their claims and you remind them of their own words It's not some masterclass in how to debag fascists You simply ask them for the evidence of what they're claiming Could you show me one recorded case of a Haishian eating a cat, please, Mr. President You ask them for the evidence of what they C you show me the report you got back from your advisors claiming that your phone had been hacked by Russian spies, Mr. Farid. You ask for evidence And or you remind them of their own words, which will hideously contradict What they say it's saying today That's all you have to do. and an American journalist did it rather splendidly this weekend and got precisely the response you will always get And I'll play that before the end the er. It's eleven eighteen. It's twenty minutes after eleven. I hate it when I can't remember people' names. The journalist I was talking about a moment ago is called Kristen Welker and she works for MBC and she provided anybody who has sat down with Donald Trump to conduct an interview in recent years with a shaming masterclass in how to do it politely effectively Honestly if you haven't seen it or heard it, I will share it with you shortly. But before all of that, we continue our conversation. This's been a weird morning, right? Half past ten, I was thinking you called this one wrong, O'Brien. But of course, if I think you know how my brain works Things aren't going well on a phone in, I blame myself And before I had therapy, I would have blamed Keith Or Martha, who's producing the program today?. I said, whyy you mean I sit here and I think you're doing it wrong. If you find this, are you interested in this? Are you interested in a little insight into how the show works on a daylight today. So I'm thinking This is really interesting Trust me, I think this is really interesting get to a sort of twenty past ten and you're not agreeing And I'm thinking, well, I'm not explaining properly why I find it so interesting. I am failing to explain to you why you should be interested in this So I'll try again. It's a funny one that It doesn't always work, of course, but usually, and here we are now we could carry onntil Sheila gets here with quality contributions to a conversation about whether or not it's feasible for Um tech companies to do what Kirst Starma is asking them to do Question number two, why is he asking them not telling them? And questestion number three, which Mark just raised Are we actually indulging in what the philosopher Freddie Eyer would have called, I think, a category error. Are we having entirely the wrong conversation Imagine if we were having a phone in about cannabis And all of my callers were ringing in to offer their views on protecting children from cannabis while smoking a joint I think that I think that's what we're doing. Isn't it Oh, well, I'd never let my children ex Wh man, that's good stuff. I never let my children anywhere near cannabis, James. I didn't let them buy any until they were sixteen. I protected my children. Oh man, that's good stuff. You've got to try some of this, Keith. This is fantastic. And then I'll take another call and it'll be like, well, I think it's absolutely outrageous. that. Excuse me a second. I'm just gonna do a bong Anyway, where was I? I just o yeah, hang on. Oh no. shhorts of memorory, shorts of Oh yeah. kids, kids should not be allowed anywhere near cannabis. you've got no idea how dangerous it is. It's absolutely. And then I take another call and it would be well, I have been sm do you see we're having a conversation about addicts? And we're all at it How an earth you rigggle your way out of that I have no idea. I'm just pointing it out because I've spotted it, and I don't think I should have to deal with it on my own. Linton's inccardiff. Linton, what would you like to say Oh Hi James. Hang on Linton, I'm just going to do another bong Cry onself out. The original question, the original question you're quite right, ster us back the ster us back to the original question,Q I love it when you go up on these tangs it's not helpful sometimes. The feasibility Yes is is heartbreakingly straightforward, simple. It is so feasible. Did you know in nineteen ninety six Standard consumer equipment made it impossible to scan bank notes. obvious reasons. Yes, you' want some home Photo cont, yes. Yes.es. So the idea of identifying problematic images That's that That's already been solved straightforward. So Solution number one when the device detects a suspicious image, either being sent by another device or being received becausecause it's one thing to say, well, there are workarounds someomebody will always find a away to send them.. If the device using an account that is registered to a child or someone of a young age detects that it may be receiving an image it beans suspicious A check is engaged a biometric a biometric check, a biometric ID check, the sort that you would have If you're buying something using Apple Pay or Android Pay So detection of suspicious images cheick in that box The device detects a suspicious image being sent to one of the apps on the device triggers a biometric ID check. If that app is being used by a user who is of a young age. And of course there are workarounds, of course there are flas of course people will. that's not a reason not to do anything. It's never a reason not to do anything So the detection, and I am simplifying obviously, this is wildly conf. You're talking to a simpleton, so it's just as well But these problems have been solved many times over many more by many clever people Detect the suspicious image, trigger the biometric ID check. The biometric ID check would naturally need to rely on the account having been set up by someone who didn't put a bogus date of birth in And release it and see who figures out how to work around. And then as so many people will, also eager to point out well, kids are fiendish, they will find a way around it. Yeah. Well, great. Boffins are fiendish too. kids My first band was called the Fiendish Bffins. They don't like to be beaten by people who figured out workarounds for their solution. And what you don't have in place here is that I always think of tax lawyers at this point is it's not as if there are going to be greater rewards for the best Bffins to go to work for the kids exposed to working for the tech companies or indeed the government on providing the safeguards that are necessary to protect our children. So it's eminently doable. I think I know the answer to the next question. whyy haven't they already done it then the disincentives, I suppose, the The claims that o it's also so difficult and what about and there are not work arst very clever people explaining to people who are not informed enough or not wise in that same domain can easily convince them. You can blind people with science and But and the companies want to do that. They want to blind people with science because I mean, at the very least it would be a big fAF to do what you're describing, or at least a FAF, maybe not even that big a fAF. But it would reduce the amount of time that children spend online. and that would be like a Turke voting for Christm Yes. And and honestly, James, not that much of a faff. I mean, I I design software for living, I build software for living, but I sketched that sketched that system idea out on the back of an envelope, literally. These people have buildings full of people who can put this together in an afternoon. So children on these devices will not be able to send and receive explicit images. And yes, there was a phrase you used that I should have used earlier, Walkarounds will exist just as they do with pretty much everything but they will not be significant enough to render the entire project futile or pointless And when and when exploits are discovered, When exploits are discovered the Bffins will tighten things up as they always do. It's been the same with music piracy, video piracy. It will be the same with it will be the same with countless other things and governments with any kind of desire to see this work will encourage and when encourage not enforce. because I was going to nudge you to that next and why you think K Staha is asking nicely rather than laying down the law, given that, as Jess Phillips has repeatedly explained The necessity, the need for it has been clear for ages and the means have been in place for a while as well I'd I'd I would suppose really obviously just a guess, but I would suppose he may be approaching them with the idea of We can do this the easy way And I'm I'm going to be nice and ask you and invite you. I'm going to be nice and invite you to arrive at a solution which we would like implemented. We have our ideas because surely there is someone with techn. someone with an idea of how this would work and how feasible it is because there must be, there simply must be somebody within government close to Kfama who's able to say, look, tenolog if the tech companies did it this way implemented this at a combination of the device level just like Apple page just like biometric checks just like many things for banking, for instance If this was implemented at the advice level and the social media companies just helped get it the last few yards over the line by doing their bit then we can implement a much safer social media technology with minimal, what' the word with a minimally invasive set of set of with a minimally invasive scheme easasy for the tech companies, easy for the manufacturers, easy all around Let's propose the easy option because the harder option the hard way is oly then Timidity would have been the wrong word perhaps to describe K Starmer and what he's doing is He's negotiating like a lawyer does. is in the judges's chambers saying, well, we don't need to do this and we don't need to do that. But if you don't comply, then we'll see you back in court in three months time It's almost like you've had training in this sort of thing. now you've done it. So what's that? half past eleven and not quite a one hundred and eighty degree U turn, but beginning to think that the speech this morning was nowhere near as ineffective or as timid as I genuinely believed at ten o'clock. Thank you, Lintn. that's absolutely brilliant In fact, you bang on the news as well, so you get spared the question about whether or not we are all addicts. sitting here stroking our beards and contemplating ways of stopping children being addicts without acknowledging for a moment the fact that we all are. It might be my favourite theme to emerge from the conversation this morning. What the hell're going to do with it? G goodness only knows, but my My goodness, you can't deny it, can you H's Dominic Ellis with your headlin. It is twenty six minutes to twelve and it is It's a fascinating I nearly said fing because I like alliteration so much. It's a fascinating thing But it's not, I don't think of phone in. And I know sometimes I think I've stumbled across something fascinating and you're sitting there going, Oh well done, Sherlock I've been talking about this for years, but we are bonkers when it comes to these social media conversations, I think this might even be Why they haven't landed quite as heavily as I expect them to when we dedicate an hour of our time to them together. O a morning Having a conversation about addiction. Aiction is the word that we should be looking at That's not what Kirama has addressed today. Kirama has addressed the inarguably unpleasant practice of young people either sending or receiving pornographic images or nude images The law is an ass in this space. It's almost impossible to Um track the attempts of legislation to keep up with changing behaviour because you will be a criminal If you send a picture of yourself to somebody who is your age, if you're both under sixteen Yeah you are sharing images of child sexual abuse, technically. and that law could not be different. I don't think it could be better. It has to be like that it would be a more It would be a more serious matter. If somebody above that age and of course, the more above that age they were was to engage in the same behavior. But you can't give a dispensation to the underage When it comes to the simple technicality of the crime So he's addressing that, but he's not really at this point talking about addiction, which is why when it was announced at the weekend and you know, a month ago and a year ago, as Jess Phillips repeatedly reminds us that Kirstst Amer was going to ban social media for children. it's the addictive element It's the addictive element that we should be most concerned about And yet that's not where he's gone today. That I think is why the story didn't quite do what we expected it to do He's not made an announcement today about social media. quite the opposite, in fact, he's made an announcement about hardware and the companies that provide it Companies like Apple and Google must activate built in features to detect and block new images. There's nothing about the algorithm There's nothing about the way in which we, not just our children, but we are all games to spend as much time on there as humanly possible. I don't know if you started watching. The new Russell T. Davies program on channel four, Tiptoe with David Morrisy and Allen coming, but my goodness, me, it's right on the money as you'd expect from Russell, but it is so So zeitgeisty, so completely the on the nose for this stuff and it's it's what David Morrisy spends his time online looking at that is perhaps most interesting and the nature of his addiction to the stuff that he spends on time online looking at And so the bit that I can't quite turn into a phone in yet is this fascinating bit about social media addiction, not about what Kistama is talking about today that we all sit here We all sit here Having a conversation about young addicts. without ever acknowledging that we are all addicts ourselves. I don't think I'm an addict, but very few addicts think they are addicts. I can take it or leave it. I did cut Twitter off completely almost overnight. so I mean I suppose that would be called going cold turkey. donon't get much FOMo, but I like my blue sky. I'll have a look at that And I'm not big on YouTube or other things, but I have my phone in mind F more than would be healthy if it was a book for even sometimes I kid myself I'm doing word games, I'm playing crosswords, but I'm hopping around on there, checking this, checking that, checking emails, the original social media, I suppose And we're all addicts, and I'm not Bad You mind me How much time you spend doom scrolling? How much time once you go to look at something on YouTube and it makes suggestions about something else you might like to watch. How many hours have your day have gone and nothing We're having a conversation about how tooth sweitets are turning our children into zombies while we are living on tooth sweetses We're getting through ten twenty a day know what the question would be there. How do you shift the conversation away from children onto the rest of us But that's not what we're having today eleven thirty eight is a time. The conversation we're having today is about really what Kir Starmer has done and much to my own surprise I think he might actually have been a lot more impressive than he sounded, whichich is a curse, isn't it for a politician? be to sound pathetic and upon closer examination to be doing something actually quite sensible and impressive. Is that where we are now? zero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. Matt's in Waltham Forest. This is your manor, Matt Hello. Yeah G morning. I guess you will remember from previous conversations that I worked on the online Sfety Act for a number of years.. And I have a theory that kind of aligns with your previous callter actually think he Kiz Dar is trying to control kind of the narrative a little bit. He doesn't want to should Every time there's anything to do with this stuff, right It's always an attack on free speech, isn't it? So you know, you get We want to move in this direction and then everyone sort of piles in and says, A, you're trying to restrict our freedoms, A you trying to remove this and remove that and all the rest of. Not everyone, but very, very prominent idiots Preciselyfortunately, we live in an era of very, very prominent idiots. qu. So I think what he's doing here is he's going look, you've got three months. Yeah. Okay. We know that you can do this stuff yourself. you know, every anyone that's got any kind of knowledge of this, knows that they can put safeguards in place, but that they don't When I worked on the online safety bill, we went after digital paid for advertising user generated content and aboutout two months after we sort of pushed that part of the campaign Facebook, Google, all of the rest of them came out and said, we're going to do it voluntarily,? So we've got to create Yeah, we're going to create a little group amongst ourselves and we will monitor this stuff voluntarily. And we said, Nan no, not good enough. you've had years and we've pursued it through until it actually made it into the app because No one believed them, right And essentially, I think this is kind of a softer way of doing that. It's I'm giving you the time to do it. and if you don't do it, then we will do something ourselves. And I think that's exactly the point that you're previous caller made I think it's more about making that clear in the public domain, if you like. News management hundred percent whichich is a good I mean, if it works, it was the right decision and if it doesn't work, it was not Yeah. he gets well, he just gets to show them as the bad guys. He gets to position then as look, we've tried to work with you in sensible collegiate almost manner You haven't worked with us So now we're going to enforce a law on you that makes you do it Because that's how important this is. And yet there was nothing in today's speech technically about social media. I know that would be the meanans by which a lot of these images are shared, but that was not what he was addressing. mean, it couldn't have been further away from a social media ban, despite all the headlines and presumably the briefing telling us that that is what was going to happen No, and again, I think you had a you had a previous caller who's rattled off that list of, you know, various different platforms and stuff. I he's right, all of that social media. what app is social media An sort of any app that you can communicate on is essentially social media. So how it's almost an unhelpful phrase then in the conversations we have about social media. We shouldn't be using the phrase social media. Well onene of the reasons why I'm still so keen on the idea of actually a social media ban up to the age of sixteen because you know, I haveve a thirteen year old son he' disgusted using WhatsApp. I'm not wild about it. No a sensible kid But you know, I'm not that keen on him having WhatsApp But then at the same time, I don't know, he can message his friends on his phone anyway and send pictures on that anyway. By the way, you mentioned about kids sending each other pictures themselves I actually think I'm prepared to be wrong about this, but I think it's actually eighteen age the age under which you can Yeah, maybe you're right, but the yes, I should have I'll double check that But the point stands, doesn't it? You will be criminalizing somehow yourself by sending a picture of yourself to someone who is the same age as you and there's no real better way of doing it because of course The law is generally the least bad option that's open to people. So yeah, so a cautious welcome from Matt who worked on the Online Safety Act and perhaps a deeper understanding of why Kirarammer has chosen the course that he's chosen. And again, some typical traits, if you like, of his premiership pooor communication. Everybody was expecting something completely different from what they got. I don't know why that happened or how that happened And some of the fault may lie with a journalist who put two and two together and came up with four and a half, but it's not good Everybody turns up expecting an announcement that there's going to be a ban on social media and ministers areouring the studio in the morning saying No no, no, no, no, no, there's not going to be a ban on social media at all. And then there wasn't a ban on social media. There was something completely different And something that takes a big bite out of one of the problems of children's activity online, but doesn't address the fundamental problem, which is the addictive nature of Perhaps And that's what I mean by the typical traits. He sounded very underwhelming, but perhaps he was saying something that we should have been a little bit more generous towards. And that's where actually Matt, before you go, that's where we come to. and I know you've addresses it partly But the naivety and awe the wisdom of expecting these companies to do the right thing voluntarily. that I mean that I don't think he expects them to do it voluntarily. I think it is just about positioning. I really do. I think it's You're giving them the opportunity. They'll say most of them will probably say some nice words around it. And again, it goes back to what your previous caller said about, oh yeah, but it's quite technically difficult. three months really isn't long enough for us to put those safeguards in place and they'll come out with a whole load of excuses around that. Well we know, like you said, they could do it in an afternoon Yeah Well, that's yeah, exactly that. Thank you. Great stuff. Thank you, Matt. You room me on another subject one day. You're allowed. It's eleven forty five. It is eleven forty eight and it is a theme to which I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be returning for the rest of my life. But how do you interview deranged or not deranged liars? particularly when they sit in positions of power. And the answers are myriad, but one of the crucial things you have to do For example, when Nick Robinson was interviewing Nigel Farris recently and Nigel Farris said, the reason my immigration figures have come down is because so many people are leaving the country. He was lying And the journalist, the interviewer failed to pick him up on it. That is disastrous because whatever you think about individuals or issues, you can't have a worthwhile or an informed opinion if you're misinformed So how do you deal with liars? How do you deal with politicians whose entire platform is fake. in Donald Trump's case, it would involve lies about the election that he lost under exactly the same system, conducted under exactly the same system as the two presidential elections that he won. It's an obvious lie But he's quite hard to pin down apparently. and I only say that because I've seen many, many people fail toin pin him down which is why it was so gratifying to see Kristen Welker of And I mean, it's simultaneously gratifying and uniquely depressing this clip because Like all decent interviewers, I think she shows how easy it is. I hope she wouldn't mind me saying that I hope she wouldn't mind me saying that because she's brilliant. and it takes real courage in America to do what you're about to hear now because Donald Trump's billionaire backers are buying up and castrating almost all of the media. You will be fired even from a late night comedy show. president doesn't like you. That's the great champions of free speech. there're shutting down comedy, let alone journalism. There's a resignation as we learned last week from sixty minutes that has seen allegations that journalists were being ordered to insert bias into their reports because CBS has been bought by Trump supporters and is being run by a Trump supporter. it's insane and they're the people that are constantly whining about their freedom of speech being compromised. while they are literally shutting people down, getting people cancellled and metaphorically burning books in the town square. So it takes proper guts to do this But as Claire Berin Island has shown English journalists with Varage, it's not that hard You just need, I think, to focus on two things Dmands for evidence. He said, whyy are you interrupting me? Let me speak. And you say, Listen, speak all you want When you answer the question that I'm asking you, I want the evidence of what you're claiming. I want the proof of what you're alleging I want to see the receipts And the other thing you do which I don't think pops up in this clip is you remind them of their own words because a if you're a liar in politics, you're a hypocrite Deition you would have said yesterday the polar opposite of what you're saying today, because you blow in the wind So when Sarah Everard is murdered, Nigel Farris says, Oh, don't blame it on anyone except the Don't blame men for it and don't take it out on the police. When Henry Novak is murdered, every immigrant in history is somehow on the hook crime, despite the fact that the person who committed the murder was not and is not an immigrant Elon Musk is And yeah, he goes on social media to blame it all on immigrants or immigration. It's bonkers. so you just need to calmly. and sometimes it's quite fun to do it uncalmly point it out, but you begin with the evidence, just say show me The money. or rather the proof or the receipts. And Donald Trump, who I think is falling apart at the seams even even more than previously at the moment C' cope And this is shameful for other journists who've interviewed him. a demonstration of how I don't want to keep saying easy because if it was well, I don't know why others do what Kristen Welker does here, but it's worth two minutes of your time The election was rigged. It was a dirty election. And it's happening again right now in California. presresented evidence happening right now in California. R Right now, it's look L look at what's happening in California. that? It's They're doing well again. In California, it's no, they're not they're dropping fast because it's a rigged election. Let me tell you It's four days And they aren't even close coming up That's how they. You know why they're doing that? Because they're cheating on the election. There's what do you have evidence? They to? All they have to do is look All I have to do is it's not ev. I listen. And I listen to people and let's see what happens. But sir, that's not evidident. You think it's appropriate. That's how they they the votes. You think it's appropriate that they have an election. and five days later, they're nowhere close to picking. local officials acknowledge they are slow. They're urging they're coked. They'reurging the votes to be counted quickly. That's how they. croked Just like you're croked. Y press is crooked. and meet the press is crooked. To be fair, I'm not croked, but let'sally when you play right into their hands. Let's continue. You're either crooked or you're stupid. Let You play right into their hands with this rep You know that these elections are rigged. Y network knows that they're rigged. You know that I won an election in a landslide And I got ninety four percent bad press. mister President, You know why I got present Because you have no credibility. But you've never presented evidence that it was rigged. Let's keep talking about I want to talk about top. You have more evidence. There's more evidence than ever presented. Let's talk your elections in this country. We're like a third world country.. Y your elections are crooked And you're crooked. at least the press is crooked. so is ABC and CBS and CNN. one sided crooked network.. Let's call all it quits because I've had enough Thank you, Darlic. H have a good day. mister President, let's please I traveled all the way to Wisconsin. Ive traveled I know. I travel in h On and off in the rain and I've given you enough time. You ought to straighten out your press because you know what? m A country can never be great. travel with a dishonest. Listen. you traveled all the way to Wisconsin And that's it. off he goes. off he runs, off he trots and he touches her on the way out. I think that's significant. He calls her darling and he touches her because You've got the racism, you've got the climate change denial, you're always going to have the misogyny. They go hand in hand And that's it. So I've got lots of evidence Could we see some, please Could we maybe see some tweds? Maybe just one tiny, just one little waffer thin Piece of evidence Nothing. He's got nothing. He just talks louder, he talks more quickly, he talks over her. They start slagging off all other journalistic outlets, including CBS, which is owned by Davidllison though, isn't it after the deal went through? strong political and business alliances with Donald Trump and the Republican Party filleting sixty minutes It still employs people who aren't sycchophantic or craven towards the regime And that's what happens. That's all you have to do. And she didn't raise her voice and she didn't behave anything other than professionally and calmly. Kristen Welker is her name Write it down because there'll be a target on her back now from some quarters of the regime and beyond a metaphorical target, I hope Um, But that's how you do it That's how you do it. I mean, lying about the election, there's so many pivotal points. where something very precious got lost, but lying about the election and subsequently, of course, pardoning the people who violently upon his lies about the election, the january of the sixth people, extraordinary numbers of whom have gone on to be convicted of other crimes since they got pardoned for the crimes they committed that day You're either for it or against it that kind of behaviour. There shouldn't really be any get out or any compromise or any middle ground. You're either for it or you're against it. And if you're for it because it upsets all the right people, that's fine. At least you're for it. You like the lies. you like the liar You like the abuser in that case, he abused that woman Vverbally And he had to touch her on the way out and call her darling eleven fifty six is the time. Back to the question we've been concerning ourselves with for the last couple of hours somewhat surprisingly. And it is Kirst Stahmer's determination to force or at least to persuade companies like Apple and Google to activate built in features that will detect and block nude images for children on both new and existing smartphones and tablets. Alex is in Seon. Son in Switzland. Alex, what would you like to say sorry to keep Hello, Jing. Hello Aice Doan you hear me? Loud and clear Perfect. Well, thank you for putting me after the orange tangerine. I apologize. But we will handle that. All right. So I wanted to talk a little bit about age verification. Yes. and the way it's done in France, because I think it's or an interesting example So what Frms did is they built the whole system saying basically, if you want to serve up, for example, pornographic sites You must implement an H verification, but they don't just say do it. They say, you will do it like this. Okay And what they had is a kind of a government server portal where people have to inscribe themselves so the government know who they are and their age. and it's a double secret system. So You go to our website, they will give our code. You type in the code in your verification portal they give you another code and you piece it in where you came from Sway J a cyle to know who you are and the government don't know what you're trying to access So it's anonymous. You don't have the problem with upload your ID. You don't have to give your identity to these companies. becausecause I'm going to say the social media companies, I see them as malignant actors ichich means they have to be treated as if they're always going to do the wrong thing until they're somehow forced to do the right thing If you let them do it, if you say just do this, they will figure out the worst possible way to do it for us and the best way for them the cheapest And the cheapest and the one that doesn't really work. And is it widely regarded to be working in France? Inub porn hub left the country entirely, didn't it after that age verification was brought in. I mean, I would say good rids, don't let the door hit you on the back. somethingomet like. Well other people you know, I mean but I take your point. It's a test not of our attitudes to pornography. it's a test of the age verification processes.ight exactly. Are you serious about this? Do you want to protect minors if you don't wantect? It' a bit nuts really, that we sit here say, I wonder if they're capable of doing it. When you think of all the things that humans are capable of doing in the last hundred years, We could do almost anythingw we put a man on the moon, but we can't stop a fifteen year old sending a naked picture of himself to somebody Do or doesn't want to see it or a naked picture, of course we can do it. off course they can do it Of course they can It seems we're all a bit gaslit here, aren't we when you think about it They have to be forced. They absolutely have to be forced. They're not going to do it. They're going to fiddle around. They're going to do the worst thing. They're going to do the thing that doesn't really work because they want the teenagers on there. I mean, I think France is working on maybe putting VPNs behind the same restrictions so that you have to be eighteen to get a VPN And that way I mean if you get a VPN then you're eighteen, fine You might get rogue VPN suppliers or providers, but you don't again, you don't ban walls because people can climb over them. Thank you, Alex. and thank you for your patience as well. It's just gone twelve noon. I think I've got a caller waiting who works for Wired, which given that we've just been singing the praises of quality journalism, I may try and squeeze in to the next hour, but we are otherwise moving on from that subject and into somewhat trickier territory, extxtraordinary footage on the BBC at the moment of an enormous bomb P presume that's the correct word. It almost looks like Second World War ordinance just sitting in the sand poking a massive great thing about I'd say fifteen foot high and a bloat just sitting next to it. It obviously hasn't gone off, but it's landed nose first in the Sam, but Israel, Iran and the United States of America. It's not what next, it's what now On your radio On the LBC app and play LBC. Leading Britain's conversation. This is LBC It is four minutes after twelve and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. That clip should sort of echo through your memory banks, shouldn't it? The clip of U Donald Trump sort of storming out of an interview with Kristine Welker because she had the audacity to ask him for some tiny amounts or just the slightest scintilla of evidence regarding his claims about election rigging, his completely false claims, his lies, his blatant lies. I Fox News ended up on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars. for repeating some of the lies with regards to voting machines, it's extraordinary how the world turns But by sheer sort of force of depravity, Donald Trump can rewrite history. in his own head. And what you heard in that clip was an example of what happens when reality manages to break through the answer is meltdown Absolute meltdown. I think that's helpful when we turn our attention to the Middle East, because you cannot leave Donald Trump out of the conversation, obviously the absence of reference to or recognition of reality It's an extraordinary psychological process, isn't it, by which you can somehow persuade yourself Black is white, that up is down that North is south. You can persuade yourself of almost anything, but the Persuasion is so fragile So fragile that when someone pulls a thread calmly and politely As that NBC journalist just did, the whole thing comes down in a in an avalanche of fury and retribution and shame That was the act of a man feeling shame briefly. and blaming everybody around him for the shame. So I'm fascinated by the by the confection of it all, by the assembly, the construction, the erection of absolute nonsense, absolute lies but his own relationship with his own lives is what came to light in that clip and the fact that it is so fragile. grasp upon the liveses, his dedication, his necessity His need for the lies is so complete but he's grasp upon them is so fragile he knows that the most cursory scrutiny can make the whole thing come tumbling down and you saw it come tumbling down. So now he turns his attention This morning to The ceasefire. what is it Keith Monday. So Monday well, I used to joke about a month ago. I started joking that it's Monday, so it's a ceasefire It's Tuesday, so it's a threat of what's going to happen if there isn't a ceasefire. It's Wednesday, so it's a declaration of glorious victory and the complete obliteration of Iran's military capabilities. It's Friday, I missed out Thursday. It's Thursday and Iran has done something which has prompted Donald Trump to threaten the things that he's already obliterated with imminent obliteration It's Friday, we're back to the ceasefire again. It's Saturday, they're firing at each other Well it's Monday and they're firing at each other. And this is what the President of the United States of America is reduced to writing this morning. Both sides, Israel and Iran, are looking to do an immediate ceasefire, Capital Letters exclamation fininal negotiations on quQote Mark's peeace end quotes are proceeding. subject to ignorance or stupidity getting in its way I don't know if those are his new nicknames for JD Vance and Pete Hagsetith, but if they are, they work for me. Subject to ignorance or stupidity getting in its way. The blockade with an utterly pointless capital B, will remain in place That's his blockade, not Iran's blockade because Iran blockaded the straight of F mos and he responded by blockading the strait of F mos And in full force and effect until a quotes final deal end quotes, also in well caps for the F and the D is reached Things should move quickly. than you for your attention to this matter I mean, you can't stop reporting it, but it's increasingly difficult to analyse it. And And then you come to recent events, Benjamin Netanyahu, Bombber Route. Israel launched strikes in the Beirut area for the first time since the truce was announced for Lebanon last week. So You can count how long that lasted in In hours, in retaliation, Iran launches a sal of missiles of missiles at Israeli targets. puts the peace talks that are currently ongoing between the U.S. and Iran at risk And of course, any solution to this, any resolution to this ends up being a wattered down, less satisfactory, less effective version of what Barack Obama's administration negotiated. ten or so more than ten years ago and which Donald Trump set fire to on pretty much his first day in the White House H is the latest contribution to U.S. Israeli relations under Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu It's not going to have any impact on the deal. I call the shots. I call all the shots. he doesn't call the shots U he's also U um been reported recently to have described Netanyahu or a conversation between the two of them describing him as shouting. shhouting at Benjamin Netanyahu and telling him that everyone hates Israel as a consequence of what he's been doing and what the hell are you doing and using bad language. I'll refresh your memory as to exactly what words were reportedly used in that conversation shhortly. but Every single time we return our attention to this When does the World Cup start? Is it on Thursday? It's imminent, isn't it? So he's probably going to want something to announce in time for the World Cup to start, othertherwise he might have to give back his fee for peace prize Every time we turn our attention to this, I don't know what happens to your minds or your conscience. Is it your heart or your head? But it's so torn I really like Tking about important things It's why I do what I do for a living I even like talking about important things when the important things are terrible. I enjoy the intellectual process of our exchanges every day, even when the subject matter is unbearable. Enjoy seems like the wrong word. Perhaps value would be a better word Last week was tough. Last week was really tough, but I still valued our conversations, your contributions to our conversation when we were talking about the attempts to turn Henry Novak, well, the decision by various people to completely ignore the wishes of Henry Novak's family, the judge, the prosecution lawyer and the pathologist and to pretend instead that that hideous crime was evidence of some sort of anti white bias or a consequence of immigration point taken up by So Dvced this weekend in a characteristically hideous Intervention. So that was tough, but I still valued it. It still was worthwhile And yet when it is as awful as this, when you're looking at the The absolute destruction of diplomacy in the Middle East and I don't even know what we're looking at now. You're looking at the death of anything that is analyzable You know, you know how it ends It ends with a settlement that's worse than what was there before. That's how it ends. That is the only case scenario Either it goes on forever or it ends with a settlement that is worse than the one that Barack Obama put That's it. I don't think anybody really disputes that You can't even anymore, subscribe to the idea that it's very important that they remove Iran's nuclear capability because they've told us several times that they have And then they've said that they haven't and then they've said that they're about to. And then they've said that they have, and then they've said that they will. and then they've said that they haven't, but they will and they won't and they will, but they do. Thankk you for your attention to this matter. President Donald J. Trump. it's insane It's objectively insane, but he's the presresident of the United States of America, so we have to all behave as if it isn't Beause what other choices theyough? Just sit here every day for three hours going bonkers bunkers, bunkers, bunkers, bunkers bunkers, bunkers. And of course, he's in charge. He is in charge. He, according to himself, calls all the shots, Netanyahu who doesn't call any shot. So he tells Netanyahu not to retaliate and Netanyahu retaliates. Um So the interesting thing, if you enjoy talking about interesting things is the schism that has now grown up between Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump between whom I would say Little love is lost which is a remarkable turnaround from that ludicrous visit to Israel that Donald Trump undertook when he was greeted almost as the second coming in the Kaneset hideous spectacle, which was a sort of glorious thank you for either endorsing or looking the other way while Israel embarked upon its hideous campaigns in Gaza road appears to have expired. Of course when you're talking about Trump, the biggest problem is that what's true today will not be true tomorrow because he neither believes in nor subscribes to anything except self advancement self enrichment and self aggrandisement. So it may well be that today He holds Benjamin Netanyahu in the very lowest regard. But Benjamin Netanyahu will give him I don't know, a blanket blank checkbook and pen and suddenly he'll like him again I'm not exag Well, obviously it wouldn't be a blankety blank checkbook and pen, but it would be similarly pointless like ae for peace prize, and his ego is such that it will be preened and stroked. and Pick to such a degree that he will change his opinion again. and he doesn't care how many Iranians die, he doesn't care how many Israelis die as long as he feels good briefly, and nobody dares as him for evidence of all the things that he's claiming Kitting together all of the elements of Donald Trump's regime that we've discussed so far this morning But what if D Well, it's been clear for a while, hasn't it that Netanyahu is going to do what's best for Netanyahu And he reckons that a form of perpetual war. is best for Netany Yahu Attacks upon Beirut. I wish you'd look at pictures of Beirut I mean, there's no point looking at pictures of Gaza. You might as well look at some sort of star Wars landscape of a completely obliterated Hbitations But Beirut is a sophisticated civilized city and Netanyahu has started bombing it, started attacking it. and I don't think Trump wanted him to I don't think that's controversial, I don't even think that's questionable So Netanyahu is going to do whatever he wants to do in this space I don't know I don't know what Trump can do to stop Netanyignanyard if he actually wanted How can he announce a lasting pee? So I think and listen, this is just me and you are hundred percent welcome to challenge the very parameters of the question that I'm about to ask you But where I think we are now is that Benjamin Netanyahu has since Not long after the terror attack that Hamas visited upon Israel on october the seventh since's not long after that, because for a while at least, it felt to almost everybody the response would be both justified and proportionate. but it didn't take long anybody honest and unbiased to realize that the response was both entirely disproportionate and wholly unjustified Ever since that moment, Benjamin Netanyahu has been doing whatever he wanted and attacking whoever he wanted and paying barely even lip service to peace agreements or ceasefires whether they've been announced byonald Trump or otherwise. He's been doing whatever he wanted and he's been doing whatever he thinks is best for his own political ambitions including turning the attack onto Lebanon, going into Lebanon, attacking Lebanon, pushing back the boundaries into Lebon Even as Donald Trump was announcing that they weren't going go into Lebanon, he was going into Lebanon and I think we've reached a point now where you have two possibly Psychopathic egos that have been in lockstep with each other since october the seventh that are now pulling in completely different directions. ceasefire. He wants peace. he probably regrets getting involved in this in the first place. We can rely upon Marco Rubio's testimony that he only did so because Benjamin Netanyahu told him it would be easy and he'd be able to spend the rest of the year doing laps of honour claiming that he'd brought peace to the Middle East where all previous presidents had failed. except of course they hadn't. becausecause the deal that was in place with Iran when Trump became president was imperfect but working An people who didn't like it with Benjamin Netanyahu and his closest allies because they kind of need some form of perpetual war in order to keep the population and Cliant, I suppose, or supportive or whatever word you prefer So you've got two possible psychopaths, certainly two narcissists. Dedicated solely to self protection, self aggrandisement seelf enrichment because of course Netanyo still hasn't faced his corruption trial Self dedicated to self That's why I use the word narcissist. I don't have the diagnostic qualifications. you know I think we can use that word fairly. Two narcissists that have been in Kahoots until this point What happens when they want different things. Ohero three, four, five, six zero sixzero nine, seven three. I genuinely have no clue what happens now Can, for example, Netanyahu carry on Atack doeses Trump just bottle it and claim that this is what he wanted all along Your answers aren't going to be proable, so we'll take theories and ideas and thoughtfulness on this question It seems to me that the rift between Netanyahu and Trump is now both significant and serious And I don't know what that means Netanyahu starts attacking Beirut. Trump tells him not to ignores Trump Trump finds him up, calls him names, shouts at him, claims that everybody hates Israad as a consequence. Anybody else said that, they'd be called anti Semitic by tea time Wouldn't they Anybody else said that what Benjamin Netanyahu is doing is making everybody hate Israel. You hear the conflation accusation, you'd hear the anti Semitism accusation. For some reason Trump gets a free pass on that. Why? Because usually People who use anti Semitism dishonestly to describe critics of Israel U quite comfortable with anything Donald Trump says as long as he keeps endorsing the attacks upon Gaza and Latterally Lbanon So what happens What happens when Netanyahu no longer has Trump's support Answers on a postc car, pase Well, ideally. answers on the phone. o three, four, five six zero six zero nine seven three. in a way. I'm asking what happens next. But I think unless you're following it differently or you're reading it differently from me and Netanyahu are now pulling in different directions Trump's dream of a ceasefire or a peace, even though we know he's going to pretend that it is something better than what Obama delivered, even though it will be measurably and objectively worse He can tell those lies, but he can't tell those lies if Netanyahu is still bombing Beirut. So what happens? when Trump and Netanyahu are no longer on the same side I haven't got a scooby dooo. of you ero three four five sixzo six zero nine, seven three I wonder whether Netanyahu is sitting there laughing at Trump. He puts the phone down having been called all the names under the sun and just goes, I've played you, Pal You're in out your ears You can't back out of this now. You joined us in Iran. You werere too busy talking about Iran that you didn't really pay enough attention to when we started attacking Lebanon. We started occupying even more territories. I've played you like an old mandolin, Mr. Trp. I don't know. I want to know what you think about this, but what happens when Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu are no longer on the same side or on the same team Hit the numbers now you will get through. zero three, four five, sixzo sixzo, nine, seven. Three It is twenty two minutes after twelve. The details of that phone call were fruity to say the least. Of the problem with trying to analysee Donald Trump is that you might as well try and nail jelly to a wall or herd cats. If you say something at two o'clock, you could say the opposite at half past two And if something appears to be the case at three o'clock, the opposite would appear to be the case at four o'clock, But we don't really have any choice Either you try to make sense of what is going on or you completely ignore it And you can't completely ignore it So what is going on now It would appear that relations between Trump and Netanyahu have hit close to rock bottom I don't know whether you agree with Donald Trump that Benjamin Netanyahu's actions have made everybody hate Israel. But they are certainly seeing an extraordinary reversal of fortunes when it comes to popular support in constituencies that were previously very supportive and defensive of the modern state of Israel. The only, in my view, honest position to adopt with regards to these matters has always been a recognition of the necessity for a Jewish homeland in Israel and also a recognition of rights for Palestinian people the so called two state solution, which is a little bit mealy mthed, a little bit airy fairy, but it is the only thing that can happen without some form of perpetual war or perpetual tension. But you're not really allowed to say that. Both sides sometimes get cross with you if you suggest that you feel just as sad. At the death of an Israeli child or a Jewish child, as you do at the death of a Palestinian or an Arab child Some people have got deep problems with that simple notion of human equivalence You have to try to make sense of what is going on. And Trump appears to have realized that Netanyahu has played him like an old piano. You're going to say two things with certainty. Number one, he will never admit that. And number two He will react irrationally. But what does that mean? How significant is it that relations appear to have reached rock bottom and What on earth happens next? Let's go to Ash, who's in Northampton. Ash, as you will know, is a maritime expert who has pretty accurately predicted every What's the correct what's the unit of measurement for C? I can't remember. Gallon, everyvery gallon of what has gone on in the Strait of Hormuz. But you venture into slightly different territory now, Ash. What does it mean? if, as seems possible, if not probable, Trump and Netanyahu have reached the end of their particular rainbow Yeah, goodood afternoon, James. different but the same And that's a weird thing for me to say. I normally wouldn't ring if it's a land based conflict. No But this This is much a continuation of the same thing quite a while ago that the U.S. has no clean third option, it only has two options T to preserve the status quo defend its gof partners, try to keep shipping moving Al just golf partners, ye Yeah, I thought he said golf for a minute, which would equally viable, wouldn't it when you're talking about Donald Trump? But you did say golf for. my brain went to a strange place. My apologies F is what was looking for ry That's right. Yeah. Or it can align itself more closely with Israel and go down that route I think we're in ait this situation is merely you now have two paths in the woods and they both end up at the same destination And I think Trump and Netanyahu, all they're going to do is walk down different parts to the same place. Youve got to remembers not just it's not just I disagree with you here and I do that very cautiously because I don't think Netanyahu who wants peace really know, but neither really this Trump, but your Why'd you say that? Because I think he does. I think you thought it was going to be over and done with very, very quickly. I think you told me that And then he will be able to claim that he's be able to essentially steal Barack Obama's lunch and claim that it was his all along, evenven though we all know he's only got half a moldy old roll and a mothy and penguin in his lunchbox, whereas Obama's was at least a proper meal. But we know he's going to do that. He needs a ceasefire in order to make that claim, doesn't he Yeah, but that was a couple of months ago I think good point. G point significantly since then. Of course And I think what we're at now is you have to bring in the proxies now back into it. You have to bring in the hooties, you have to bring in ull and you have to bring in to some extent, Hamas, but we can probably leave Hamas as a side note at the moment. Okay The reason I bring in the hooties is because again, this is one of the reasons I called in. This is maritime. What they Maritime. Yeah, o. backack in your comfort zone because the sensible well the rational thing that's going to happen now is Iran is going to step up the Hoti war and it's going to to try and force two different fronts on Israel and Houis. The Houthis have said all along that if they do need to step up, the first thing they're going to hit the Babelmandb stright. which means that's going to start affecting more Western trade because that's where that's the entrance to the Red Sea that There's another choke on trade goes through So and this is why Trump can't just now claim victory and walk away because you're going to end up that's going to disrupt even more Saudi Arabian you way to Qatari Bahraanian and Amenian because they're currently using a lot of the red Seaaports to do their stuff. They can't do that once that begins And that's why I'm saying you've got two different paths now starting to diverge And it's kind of irrelevant whether or not Netanyahu and Trump are on the sameink same page, but it could even be actively like shouting at each other. It doesn't matter Nettingaru who needs to keep his war going to remain out of prison and to remain on the on the right side of people like Imar Ben Gavir who want the expansionism, who want who want the war. I mean, they're even talking about Syria now as an expansion. That came up last week Trump is locked in a position where other allies And you know, we'llave we'll leave the Abraham accords to the side for a minute as to what we're supposed to do about them. But Saudi Arabia Qatar, Bahrain, Oman the UAE to a similar extent Now that all this has happened, look at what Iran is saying. We're going to start striking these other countries because They are part of this system So It kind of doesn't matter. L they can argue they can all they want They're not the only players in the room at the moment. understand I understand most of what you're saying, but not if I'm completely honest, all of it Yeah because Because in in a sense, if I say what happens if Netanyahu and Trump become detached from each other, then I think your answer is, well There will then be two things unfolding, two separate things unfolding Tr Trump will be independent of what is going on with Netanyahu, but all of the other players in the region won't. They will respond to it accordingly, whether it's, you know, the hooties or whether it's Saudi Arabia and Trump is essentially reduced to Bystander status now In the Israel conflict, yes, but then in the wider conflict, No, you will have to protects his allies because it's part of that ally situation that Saudi Arabia barrowing Kuwait will be defended by the United States So and you know, if the Hootis start up in the Babal Mandad that is ive attack on more maritime trade in the area, which again affects more of the Western countries, It affects more of the trade going through Y you will just have multiple going on rather than seeing it as one wider conflict. So in the context of Israel and Iran Is Trump now irrelevant? Israel and Iran? Yeah because he's telling them both to stop shooting, but they're going to do they what they're going to do what they're going to do regardless of what Trump says or does. Well, for a start, they haven't stopped shooting Yeah, sort of. I mean, much in as much as Lebanon is the point of conflict there at the moment, as well as you know, I fully appreciate Basically, the cononstitution of Iran is anti Israel. I'm fully aware of that. It's more it's more of a thing to fight over rather than a an ideological standpoint, but Yes, the USA, in as much as it is decision making within that conflict, kind of irrelevant and kind of has been for the last three, four weeks Yeah because he posts on truth social and because he's the president of the United States of America, we may not hang upon his every word, but we can't quite process the idea that this thing that he didn't quite start, but which You know, he's been absolutely associated with and front and center in. We can't quite believe that it really doesn't matter what he says or does next. Neither Iran nor Israel, particularly with regard to Lebanon and retaliation about Lebanon, are going to be particularly bothered about what he says or does Precisely. And that's also a factor of how long this is dragged on with the diplomacy. Iran made it very clear they don't trust the U.S now in diplomacy because every time they get to a certain situation, it either falls apart or they get bombed And I don't think Israel have ever really cared in that sense because They are the ones who are on the side of the people doing the negotiating, which is the USA I mean, could There's two questions here. I don't know if you can answer either of them. One is could Trump stop Natanyah? if he wanted to. And the other is, could the United States? Netanyaho if they want. I think the question is would they want? No, the question is could they if they did want to? Yeah that's the sort of question that I would love know a seniorx diplomat to come on and answer because I I have taken it to believe that Trump doesn't really want to stop them upp until now I think that phone call. I mean and you know, there'll be a couple of people in my inbox here, Ollie that it's performative nonsense to cover up the fact that they're in deep cahoots as well as throwing a bunone. So there'll always be somebody who thinks and he's even mentioned Epstein. But he does seem to me to have had enough of this. He wishes it would go away. You can tell because he keeps pretending it's not a big deal. He keeps saying, o, it's not a big deal, it's not a big deal. And then of course, reality just breaks through his brain and he starts tweeting endlessly about it and how important it is and how amazing he is. and thank you for your attention to this matter, President, Donald J. Trump. So I think the fact that he's pretending it doesn't matter and isn't important is probably the most compelling proof that he wishes It had never started and is desperate to get out of it Netanyahu has seemed likely for long before this conflict started, will do whatever he wants And neither you nor I know becausecause they've been so joined at the hip But for decades, neither you nor I know whether in America, whoever the leader is, whether the United States could actually order Israel to stop attacking for example, Beirut and Lebanon. I don't know. unless they went through the UN Security Council. they rejected But there's no they don't. I mean, Israel in particular has treated UN Security Council resolutions with contempt now for years because America wasn't Yeah So America would suddenly discover an appetite for the United Nations to have someome sort of primacy in the region Yeah, I'm not It's an odd thing, but I am very much on the side of that now being two paths to conflict and war. Amazing And it's kind of irrelevant whether Iran and the US. are on the same path because the U.S involvement in Iran versus Israel is one thing and then Israel No, then Iran versus everybody else becomes a different thing entirely Yes, because the wider regional conflict with the other countries in the Gulf something that the U.S. will have to ake consider. Israel aren't going to worry about that anyway, despite the Obama accords because it's not really their problem. No, of course it isn't. And I mean there lies the reason why I suggested at the outset that this would be it's important to try to unpick it, but there is no guarantee of success. Ash always a pleasure. You can follow Ash on Blue sky, should you wish? Ash O O o sorry. OR o. So Ash, newew word O o his handle and as he says, he is a lot more Comfortable in maritime territory. that's not a Oxymoron. But but pretty helpful there as well. And I don't know if anyone can answer this question. And what does it mean Apart from that logistical answer, it means there's essentially now two wars where not long ago there weren't any What does it mean If Trump and Netanyahu who are no longer on the same team are no longer on the. What does it mean for Israel O three, four five six zero zero nine seven three it twelve thirty six. goodood Lord. Mattugh iss So twelve thirty nine is the time. The times of Israel picked up On a lot of the stuff we've been talking about this morning or rather it picks up this morning on a lot of stuff we've been talking about this afternoon and describes The alliance, if you like, the partnership between Trump and Netanyahu is collapsing Trump seeks to tie Netanyahu's hands as the partnership that went to war one hundred days ago collapses. tellelling Israel it had better not respond to an Iranian missile attack, the U.S president, desperate for a deal The devilish Tehran regime presented the PM with a stark dilemma they go on to suggest that that relationship has reached its Nadir. It's, as I said a moment ago, it's Bottom And then you have the growing rift between the two of them, with Trump telling Barack Ravid, his favorite Israeli journalist, I am going to call BB right now and tell him not to retaliate Each of them had their fun, Israel had its strike, and Iran had its strike. we don't need another one And now you have that development that just popped up during the bulletin News that Iran has said yes Donald Trump demands that Israel and Iran stop firing at each other. Iran says yes And there was no immediate response from Israel So we can say two things with some confidence. This is quite a big change And it was very much the right question to ask at twelve o'clock this afternoon becausecause now you've got Iran, arguably, playing a cle diplomatic game withonald Trump. Look me in the eye and tell me that Donald Trump couldn't completely transfer his allegiances from Israel to Iran if he thought it would serve his own purposes. rightightly or wrongly, he thought it would serve his own purposes better whichich is why I asked you just before the news, what on eararth What does this do to Israel? Where does this leave Israel But I'm over compplicating the question. The question is pretty simple. What does it mean for everything and everybody Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu are no longer on the same team. If that one hundred day old partnership is over. What does it mean? So Ash has already given us a meaningful military answer. It means that there are now two theaters Of war But what about the rest of it? What does it mean for Israeli security? What does it mean for The future, what does it mean for Israel and indeed any and everybody else if Netanyahu and Trump are no longer allies Bob's in Brighton, Bob, what would you like to say Anoon, James U You know how the Magalot and people affilated with that wing hate giving foreign aid Yes Well, one of the things that Trump could do is stop giving foreign aid to Israel. I don't think he could though. couldould he because of the role that organizations like APAC play in funding Republican politicians Well, I don't know about that because there there have been several things that Trumps had gone to Congress in order to do, which he's refused to do and just carried on with without them So they would punish What would the retaliation be from U. S supporters, American based supporters of And this is still a very real constituency, sadly. There doesn't appear to be much reflection upon whether Netanyahu is acting in the best interests of Israel among many of his supporters in America, even as Donald Trump, previously one of his biggest supporters, describes him as having made everybody hate Israel. I don't know what the retaliation would be. I don't know what would be brought into play if They stopped providing, I mean, support, whether it's aid or business based support, military support to Israel They just said that's it now. we're turning off the tap both for good, you know military and foreign aid. I mean, I think it's easier for Trump we have to remember that Trump is protecting himself his own political like and he's got his vanity at the center of that Well this is the beauty of it, isn't it? historically, is that Netanyahu and Trump, the only things you can say with any confidence about either of them is that they will always prioritize their own fortunes above every and anything else and their fortunes were alled until they weren't. and now they're no longer relied. I don't know that anybody's got a really clear bead on what that means or what will happen next No. I just think that they're both going to be into their own self interest. And for Netanyahu, he's got to tack to the right and stay tacked to the right because of the alliances he's got with be ethnoationalists that he've formed a relation with And with Trump, he's already got a groundswell of support for no foreign wars and cutting foreign aid And They can't and never the twin shall meet. He can't get what he wants if Netignu who gets what he wants. and for a hundred days, its looked like they both wanted the same thing Yes. But it's mad, right? I mean, it's a serious of really because it's Trump And to a lesser extent Netanyahu, we've taken the easy route of thinking, oh, there's no point trying to analyze it because it's like trying to nail Jelly to a wall or hard cats, but actually we're looking at a moment of really, really serious significance, which the times of Israel picks up on by pointing out that it's the end of the partnership, but even they don't really speculate on what that means or what happens next As I can say, Jamid, I think know Trump is so self interested and we have seen that he has absolutely zero regards for past alliances or international order. So Iran can't trust him. Iran knows it can't trust him Yeah because he torched the last deal that they sign But they now might have a sad outcome with Trump, which is that he wants the end of the war. Which means he has to put the pressure on Israel to end it. And that's what we're wondering what that looks like. And you suggest I would you know, I'm too polite to say pie in the sky But I think it's unlikely that he would have the political confidence, let alone the manoeuvre, the room for manoeure. to punish Israel in terms of aid or arms sales. But in the absence of that, I don't know what else fits It's a feasible answer but not I don't think practically Extraordinary. thank you, Bob. I really recomm recommend even this u This piece in The Tes of Israel by David Horovitz, under the headline, Trump seeks to tie Netanyahu's hands as the partnership that went to war one hundred days ago collapses because as Bob is just Brought to the table, the question I've been asking in my characteristically long winded fashion is really canany Can Donald Trump tie Benjamin Nettingany who's hand Benjamin Nettinganyu, Can Donald Trump tie Benamin Nettinganyu whose hands And that's actually not only where this editorial takes us, but where the call so far t us Can he They're now pursuing different objectives. They are increasingly at odds with each other. Donald Trump, in the eyes of many people correctly pointing out that Benjamin Netanyahu's actions have absolutely filleted sympathy and support for Israel I I think that's measurable by opinion polls No justification of an increase in anti Semitism. a massive decrease in support for Israel in its current guysise under its current regime. Donald Trump can say that. a lot of people still in an atmosphere of public discourse Very carefully cultivated, a lot of people still aren't allowed to really say that Benjamin Netanyahu has done immeasurable damage to Israel's reputation on the world stage without being accused of either anti Semitism or conflating Jewish people with The modern state of Israel, but Netanyahu does it all the time And Trump is now accusing him of having made the whole world hate Israel So they appear to have reached the end of their rainbow What does it mean? Can Trump stop Netanyahu from Whatever it is he wants to do next Ohero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven twelve fifty is the time. It's a question that might merit a return actually, just noting the time, but it's one of those mornings where I'm not quite sure where it's all gone. A little quiz you which British politician has accepted eighty three thousand pounds in fees from U. S anti abortion groups and events. Remember? I'll give you a little clue Racism and misogyny always go hand in hand O Link So which British politician is reported today to have received eighty three thousand pounds in earnings, accommodation and flights from groups or events that support the US anti abortion movement. No prizes, but it' be interesting to see if you guess that correctly can't be Farriage, can it? becausecause he's got five million quuid squirled away secretly in his current account. Why on earth would he be dancing for coins for anti abortion lobbies in a foreign country. So I wonder who's left fit into that particular category. But that's not what we're talking about now. We're talking about whether or not Trump can tieet in Yahoo's hands as the Times of Israel posits this mning Grahams in the Hague Gam, what do you reck Hey James. How are you doing? good. goodood show today. Thanks. You make it sound like it's not a good show every day, but we'll let that pass It's more often good than not, how that?' take. So yeah, real quick. Yeah, there is a very easy way to stop this, veryy easy way to tie Netanyagu's hands and that's to stop supplying arms and money to Isra overnight Yeah, It te because within a week or two It's utterly unfasable. Isn't it utterly unfasable? No, absolutely not. Why would it be unfeasasonable Because of the relationship between Israel supporters And American politics in general in the Republican Party in particular? No That's very true. and I'd ask you to go look at Thomas Massey from that point of view. with out of Texas. Yes Yeah thirvty seven million dropped on his campaign by Israeli lobys, et cetera, et cetera.es. He's actually advocating for what I'm talking about too. Turn it over, stop it. But under Trump stop stopping the weapon. The question is under Trump Could it happen The answer to the quest, The answer to the question is yes, it could It won't because Trump doesn't wr it. No, that's what I meant So So that's why I said to Ash half an hour ago, there are two questions here. Can Donald Trump stop Benjamin Nettingu or can an American president stop Benjamin Netanyio. And with Trump is it can't or won't Do you sink of both really. He's painted himself into a corner. He can't back down. Iran holds all the cards right now And on top of that, about an h hour ago, Iran just played a blinder by being the moral adult in the room again and stopping its attack based on Donald Trump's claim. I mean it Israel. It is continuing. I see what I mean here? I know exactly what you mean here. and I see it very clearly. In fact, I'd level with you. donon't tell anyone else I told you this. But when I first said on the radio, hand on heart, And I can't believe I'm saying this going back a couple of months now, who would you trust more? Who would you consider to be more objectively reliable the, you know, hideous Iranian regime or the hideous U.S. regime. And I can give you two Iaed I paused, Graham before asking that question because it was quite provocative and inflammatory, But now we've gone even further where the President of the United States of America has asked two combatants to cease fire, and Iran, the historical enemy has come back and said, yes, okay, whereereas Israel, the historic ally has said Well so far, ase, notothing Yeah. I mean, to give you to speak directly to that point, I mean, There used to be a very famous and old mosque in Tehran and there is a small Jewish population in Tehran and they're protected and they have representation in Parliament That mosque is no longer there because the Arian in the USA bombed it So I mean that's one way of looking at it. And does Tump also ask ask us out, askk us out who's more trustworthy Iran or America under Trump, I don't know, does Trump's petulence extend too burning bridges with Benjamin Netanyahu and therefore Israel, regardless of what his supporters back in the United States At least we can all agree, he's done a brilliant job Donald Trump, of negotiating the ceasefire and winning the war. Thank you for your attention to this matter, Donald J. Trump And that phone call, that was, I mean genuinely Breathtaking when you think about how it started a hundred Days ago, Trump called Netanyahu Fing crazy It was leaked the call. It's caused great political damage to Netanyahu ahead of the elections that he's got coming up because I imagine average Israelis, if you can speak of such a thing and by that, I just mean multiplicity and complexities of opinions and positions, but average isra public opinion, if you like will'll be deeply worried about where that country, where their country is left in the absence of U. S. support, but calling Obviously calling Netanyayo Fing crazy and claiming that he's making everybody hate Oh. Israel is going to give almost everybody cause for pause except Well, maybe accept some people, Dannes Anenesia Dyne, what would you like to say Thank you, Graam Dye, what's on your mind Yeah. the last callarter was really good and so were you in Well, it's very equable of. You sound like Donald Trump. Thank you for your attention to this m. The American movement to support Israel would be incredibly difficult to stop because of the PC situation but buried deep in the bill last week for DHS and home security was the fact that the U.S military and the Israeli military will merge into one next year That will enable the U. S. to continue to supply. Israel with weapons and tools and everything else. This is the United States Israel Defense Technology Cooperation Initiative, as it appears in section two hundred twenty four of the House Armed Services Committee's version of the fiscal year twenty twenty seven National Defense Authorization Act. I think, off the top of my head Yes. The last call I mentioned Thomas Masy and a number of other Republicans and obviously all the Democrats. who have said enough is enough, stop supplying the bombs stop supply and the money, blah, blah blah That becomes relevant next year If this gets passed Correct. three point eight billion a year under Barack Obama. I think it's important to point that out. That's the current aid deal signed during the administration of Obama. That ends in twenty twenty eight when the ten year agreement runs out and this would be part of It's replacement but it also gets over the fact that they don't need iPAC money anymore because they'll be providing what they're providing as part of this And remember, Republicans have got Congress right now It Right now they have, but they won't necessarily when it comes to the time of the vote, will it?'s Well the vote the vote should be within the next month. Oh really? Yes. I thought it was next year. but I believe' only just next month. So and that mean that would mean that all the arguments about old bit Israel. Yeah, they're all a bit mute. But Trump does seem to be genuinely running out of patience with Netanyahu who, The bigger picture renders that irrelevant because of what this proposal, were it to be enacted would actually deliver essentially bringing the U.S and the Israeli militaries closer together than Ever before, than ever before. Anyway, quick answer to the question of which British politician has taken eighty three thousand pounds from US anti abortion groups and events I mean, it couldn't possibly be a politician who insists A, that foreigners have no business interfering in British politics and B, who's just trousered five million quids secretly from a businessman because why on earth would he be dancing for coins? Oh Oh it is. Yeah Nigel Farge, eighty three thousand pounds. And we've had a response. lot We' had a text last week suggesting I was frightened of Tking to him. so I issue as I do, regularly on the programme, my open invitation to him to join me in the studio and prove what a tough guy he is. And on this occasion, we have actually had a response and here it is And that's it for me for another day. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBs. Was that sound effect, Keith or did you do it yourself top work either way. You can stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinions, a range of podcasts including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from my LBC show every day. So download the official app for free from your app store now. comoming up at four on LBC. Simon Markx, which is why he hasn't been on this show is standing in for Tom Strawberak this week. so expect A return not only with him to the territory we've just been exploring, but also with Sheilafolk Thank you. Is it my turn now? Yeah. Well I brou her back This has been a Global Payer original production