Reflecting on the Fish and Chips Call

This is a Global Player original podcast It's three minutes after ten and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I don't know how it performs. in the sort of relatively frequent roundups of the finest comedy moments of all time P partartly on your age, doesn't it? But I suspect that Dellboy falling through bar while Trigger stood next to him holding a pint is going to come near the top. More recently, I think that Mitell and Webb sketch when they are dressed as Nazis And I think it's David Mitchell who utters the immmortal line, Are we the baddies That's brilliant. That's not slapstick, of course, in the way that the Only fools and horses clip is, but that sort of speaks to an eternal truth Hang on a minute. A we the baddies? And it just occurred to me now literally when I sat down that the two things I'm thinking about talking about today in some ways feature the same baddies I'm looking at the weather. I'm looking at the fact that heated that a summit, an academic summit at my Alma Marta, the London School of Economics is has just been cancellled. It was scheduled to host a kind of academic meeting on extreme heat today and it has been cancellled, Wait for it because of Extreme heat. I don't know what word to use to describe that. The best I came up with was portentus Which is a great word, isn't it? pooor Tentus It feels portentous. It feels like an omen It feels like an application for inclusion in a history book of the future if we make it to the future Even when an event on extreme heat Improving governance and strengthening action around the world was cancellled because of the red weather. What is it again, Keith? the red red weather w. Rre red weather A a rare red a rare red weather a A rare red weather warning Because of the rare red weather warning And still people didn't take notice or still people underreacted to the gravity of the situation, an extxtreme heat academic conference. cancellled the London School of Economics is taking place in the Saw Libbrary actually, a room I know well where I would spend many happy hours not doing anything, really, or reading books that had nothing to do with my course. It was a beautiful building in the Shw Library. Fifth floor, if I remember rightly, you didn't really go up there much. and a lot of students could spend their entire time at the London School of Economics without ever knowing about the Shw Library. It was for swWats and wasters SWats and wasasters, the SWatTs would be there because it was a nice place to work on actual academic things and the wasasters were there because it had sofas in it. You could sort of sprawl on a sofa like a nineteenth century maiden and read an improving novel or in my case probably Martin Amos during that period of my life. But that's been cancelled. you could call it ironic or you could focus on a different word instead, as I tried to do earlier. The other thing that I wanted to talk about today was Brexit because I can't believe that no one's celebrating. St. Yesterday was the tenth anniversary of the vote and today is the tenth anniversary of the glorious victory, the magnificent triumph. The absolutely historic moment of celebration. So where are all the party poppers Where are the street parades? Where's the ticket tape Where's the celebration? There's not even a balloon. I came to work that morning knowing that it was going to be a disaster, but as I explained to you yesterday, really looking forward to talking about it because That's my job and I love it Um but there were other people who were Cckah hoops Over the moon. Absolutely delighted. Where are they now? And why aren't they celebrating? is a probably rhetorical question. But I was minded to put together a little contest for us to play together U sprawling like a Jacob Bce Mg in the House of Commons, says Dan and Trisha and a few other people Yes, you're absolutely right. I I was I'm thinking of playing it not a game necessarily, but just looking at what the single biggest factor was in that vote that turned us into the first population in history to actually elect to impose economic sanctions on ourselves. Was it a person, an institution U as in as in a factor Not a thing like people didn't understand immigration or freedom of movement, Not that, but the things, the actual engines that were either Human beings are driven by human beings Um And occurred to me the answer would probably be the same and it's the media. And that's where the Nazis come in. That's where David Mitchell and Robert Webb Do doing that brilliant sketch where they're sort of surveying the military scenario during the Second World War. and Well, hang on a minute. Are we the baddies Because everywhere I look now, there are columnists and editorials and opeds moaning the state of the country, fromom the left and from the right. I speak as a bloke who wrote how they broke Britain. Um and you know, I stand by that thesis, although obviously the guilty men are easy to identify and trip off the tongue quite winningly. You've got David Cameron and you've got Boris Jonson, you've got Dominic Cummings, you've Rupert Murdoch, you've got Paul Daker, you've got Andrew Neil, you've got Jeremy Corbyn, of course played it. But so I mean who broke Britain is a very easy game to play Unless you're a member of the media In which case you have to pretend there's something else going on. Oh, it's because we're not drilling for oil in the North Sea. or it's because we're teaching children too much about slavery or the empire. In some ways, I wonder whether woke grew up. became a thing. direct consequence of the people responsible for the state of the country tally unable, not just to admit, but even to acknowledge that they are utterly responsible for the state of the country Are we the baddies? It's the answer to the question of what was the single biggest driving force that led the country off a cliff ten years ago. Is it the media? I think it probably is an epic and unforgivable failure of journalism whichich brings us to the heat, which brings us to the extreme heat. And just the thought that occurred to me as I sat down, which is always a worry Isn't it? Because you know, sometimes I find myself hitting ten past ten and thinking maybe I should have thought this through before I started sharing it with you live and completely off the cuff. But it's the same sort of thing, isn't it What would it take for us to be terrorized By extreme heat because The answer put it to you cautiously, tentatively is not extreme heat. I feel we should have had a sound effect there, Keith. A kind of d d dun take for us all. to be suitably terrorized And I think I prefer the word terrorized to the word terrified in this context. byy extreme heat Because it's not extreme heat, is it I mean, you know, don't think less of me, but the temptation this morning to do a phone in on what's your favorite lolly or whether or not a magnum is a lolly. Of course it isn't. It's a chock ice on a stick. It's not a lolly. Lllies are fruity, not creamy. Everybody knows that, but they persist in putting magnums at the top of these particular charts. The best lolly is a fab Everybody knows that as well or possibly a rocket, although they're very hard to get hold of these days. I don't think even Ezo in the in the car park at the at the garden centre in Iselworth has got has got rockets. He's definitely got famps though U It's not extreme heat. So I wasn't going to do it lightly. I mean, having a conversation about why schools are closing and public transport can't cope is a bit like having a conversation about why Greenland is better at coping with extreme cold than we are. I mean we are not a country that was built to deal with this sort of weather We don't for I think the best way to prove that, if you really think it's a conversation worth having is to point out that we generally don't have siests. unless you are a mid morning Radio talk show host, you probably don't have a siestter every day They very I'm very tired when I clock off. Don't look at me like that. It's exhausting this job. I know what you think You should try listening to it, Jamones. It's absolutely exhausting. That's your point, right? Oh, maybe a mini milk is a lolly, actually, Phil. You raise a decent point. It's not creamy, though, it's milky Extreme heat Is not the answer to the question of what it would take for us to recognize that extreme heat is terrorizing, terrifying, hugely important the temptation to talk about Lighthearted stuff is almost irresistible I The temptation yesterday to talk about who's got the worst job. Just a thought for my friend Scott, who is currently working on an industrial pressing machine in a room with absolutely no ventilation or air conditioning. Almost the polar opposite of the environment that I find myself in this morning. And then I had another listener. someone else got in touch this morning to tell me that they were working in a laboratory with I think sewage like like doing samples I'll find you the text actually. I don't want to misrepresent the the reality being described, but that is that is really irresponsible of me. You know what my job is. I tell you every day, my job is to make things interesting for you. Sometimes I don't have to because they're obviously and immediately interesting as well. And sometimes I have to work quite hard to make things interesting for you. But the problem with this particular subject is that it is Absolutely importantant. It is the single most important issue facing our species. facing our planet And we do not take it seriously enough. And I'm just a radio host. If the entire population of the planet is not taking it seriously enough, and don't act me. I know some people are and I know that it depends partly on where in the world you are. But if we as a species are in a plurality in a majority, roportionately not taking it anywhere near seriously enough Then I can't make it interesting to you or at least if I can make it interesting to you, it's not going to touch the sides of where this story would need to be. Otherwise Some moments feel significant. The floods in Valencia felt significant I was just reading Ursula von Delee this morning detailing I think the one billion euros of aid that has been sent in that direction by the European Union This thing today, the London School of Economics canceling a summit and an academic summit on extxtreme heat because of extreme heat Th These are real moments. These are important things doesn't land in the way that it should. And I don't know that it ever will You know what I generally reach for at this point in my pomontifications? I generally reach for that Leonardo Diaprio film from a few years ago called Don't lookook Up, which was a masterpiece of allegory Absolute masterpiece of allegory because We don't look up It's a bit like Brexit. onlyn a little bit, if you were celebrating Brexit ten years ago, you won't be celebrating it today and you'd rather that we never talked about it. You don't like to be reminded of how gullible or how stupid or how ativistic you were. to which I'm afraid that the answer is tough. you are the baddies, but we'll move on to that in the next hour. With this it's as if it's too epic to contemplate, so we won't We'll just have a little bit of a moan about how hot it was on the Piccadilly line this morning and how the people whose suitcases clog up the corridors are even more annoying on a day like today than they are the rest of the year. We'll have a little chat about our favourite lollies. I could tell you now, we would all be up for that. I'm not patronising you. I would rather talk about favourite lollies And what's your favourite Lolly? Does anyone remember Good Glly, Miss Lolly which was a feature on this program. only came along in a very, very hot weather when it would replace Beat the Seet, one of my favorite features on this program. backack when my childishness was allowed to run rampant over the airwaves as opposed to today when it just sort of peeakks out occasionally I donon't know Why We don't care enough I also don't know why I don't care enough And I don't know. I fear. I fear that the answer to the question I'm asking is not an event What would it take for us to be more terrorized by extreme heat take to be more terrorized by extreme heat. because the answer is not extreme heat. It's another little story for you today that I think speaks to my conviction that the media is almost entirely to blame for what's going on because the media, like some politicians, is bought and paid for Of course politicians who are bought and paid for think it's none of your business that they're bought and paid for. But the media is also bought and paid for. So you generally have to turn to the Guardian, which is a deeply flawed organ, but is not in the pocket of a foreign based billionaire, like most of the rest of the media now, or historically the BBC, but they, as we've discussed on many occasions, fell into the trap of false equivalence. So you'd have it was actually a precursor to Brexit When you would have ninety nine percent of academic expertise in one corner But if you were doing an interview on Newsnight, you'd have to invite the late Nigel Lawson onto the show to sit in the other corner insisting that climate change wasn't real and we're still in many ways, caught in that trap drill baby drill is an extraordinary thing to have political popularity at the moment when you consider the state planet Do you remember Olez? Do you remember how hysterical? It's not a word I use very often, how hysterical The people who brought you Brexit and Boris Johnson and told you Trump was going to be brilliant and used phrases like Trump Drangement Center. Do you remember how mad they all went about Ulos and partly because the Mayor of London has brown skin and is a Muslim, of course, that inspires an awful lot of our Political discourse in the capital city sadly, especially online. But it went beyond racism and Islamophobia, that the absolute hysteria that surrounded Olez, up to and including a former leader of the Conservative Party, endorsing criminal damage and subsequently backpedaling furiously I speak of you Duncan Dut Ol. you remember Ola and then boom it went an entire by election was fought on that single issue, Kir Starmer, remember him He joined in With the criticism of Sadk Khan after they lost in Orxbridge, saying, you know maybe we need to rethink it or maybe and Sadi Khan to his credit was resolute. he knew how this was going to pan out, even if nobody else did Oh, and by the way, this is how it'sanned. Deaths linked to air pollution fell by an estimated forty percent in London over five years from twenty nineteen, according to new analysis by Imperial College London It also found that toxic air pollution in London reduced markedly, with nitrogen dioxide levels down forty one percent and fine particulate pollution down twenty eight percent at which point Someone will ring in to say, o yes, but the air on the London underground is very dusty. And you sort of recognize, yeah, we are the baddies Beuse no one's done that for themselves. No one's gone down onto the London underground and measured how dusty the air is. A so called journalist has done that in the hope of poo pooing or undermining an initiative, an environmental initiative that has in just Seven years. Sen air pollution fall by an estimated forty percent. That follows, by the way, news about the number of hospital admissions, with breathing difficulties plummeting as well. That's such a big win, politically Such a big win Um, But we don't care enough. We don't care enough. so What would it take? Is it just that it will take more extreme heat What would that actually look like? Is it that there needs to be some sort of fundamental shift in the way that we think about things? What would that involve? Can you think of a precedent Is there anything that that we have undergone a Because I don't think the smoke everyone always talks about the smoking ban Look what happened. Just walk down your high street and count the vape shops. I know that we've got rid of smoking and that vapes aren't as bad as cigarettes, but it doesn't actually feel like an unb Diluted victory, does it over addiction or poison I don't know that there is a precedent for what needs to be done But I know that it needs to happen. and I know that I'm part of the problem I can turn somethingomet that the rest of the media thinks is dry or the rest of the media is lying to you about. I can turn it into compelling radio. I'm not bigging myself up, I can. I can't I can't do this tried and tried and tried and tried and tried. can't do it I don't know what needs to happen for me to be terrorized because I'm not There's a map of France, a heat map of France. that was published a few years ago as a warning of what things would look like by twenty fifty if action wasn't taken. I was looking at it yesterday. It's already worse. than the projection in France today It's already worse than the projection that was published as a scare tactic. A few years ago for what it would look like in twenty fifty It's already worse today Everything is getting hotter and hotter and hotter We happen to live in a country that can't cope with that, but even countries that were constructed to cope with extreme heat with the levels of extreme heat or the extremity of the heat that they're experiencing and we don't feel it We all want to talk about Calppos and funny feet Fabs and rockets, Cornettes and magnum We don't feel it. Why don't we feel it? Oh three, four five, six zero six zero nine. seven. Why? We feel it Why aren't we? terroriz. and What do you think it would take for us to Look up for us to recognize that the politicians dedicated to, for example, net zero, the politicians dedicated to reducing the temperature of the planet. are really the only ones we should be listening to because Are we the Baddies alert. The front page of the Daily Mail today is warning that the left wing net zero zealot Ed Milliband could become Chancellor of the Exchequer. So you're looking at quite possibly the hottest June day in the history of our country And the politician most readily associated with trying to turn the temperature down is getting a coating on the front page Of the same newspaper that told you Brexit would be brilliant. Boris Johnon was a genius. Liz Truss was a financial Um, uh, I've already used the word genius, unfortunately And Donald Trump would be great for Britain And now they're going after Ed Milliliband for wanting to turn the temperature of the country down and lots of people will go along with it. The same people that sold you all those other things who do what I do for a living they will tell you. againain. o no, we don't need that. So you walk outside and your face will melt And you come back inside and start wanging on about how This is all unnecessary or not real or inevitable or cyclical, or I don't know what it needs I don't know what I need because I'm lecturing you today. I'm part of the problem, not the solution. What do you think it would take And why Don't we feel it already Ohero three, four five, six zero six zo, nine seven three. G, I've got a mental block on that word. Everyone teases me. What do I say Olez and what does everyone else say? You les, you les. So it's you les. I'm not doing it to be contontrary, ULS, or I'll say youLes. ULS has been an incredible success An incredible success No one ever talks about it anymore Brexit has been an incredible disaster No one ever talks about it anywhere Why no answer same people question Are they the baddies? Answer, Yes So what do the rest of us do? Why aren't we sufficiently terrorized by extxtreme heat. Tony's inreen, Tony, do you reckon Hi James. A first point is I'll put into the mix of Kalipo for your ice creams. Well played. for your loies. Yeah. I like it, I like the way you pronounce it as well. You make it sound more exotic than just a humble calipo. I've just been abroad so you know I' fun to call them abroad. Fancy. Carry., give me a that plays into something I said to your producer there I'm in Scotland. It's pleasant here at the moment. It's about twenty one degrees. The sun is out, there's some cloud in the sky. It's pleasant. it's nice peopleople are out in the gardens and they're enjoying themselves effXit The extent to which I understand it is down in London. It's unbearable that for me would be unbearable because it was that hot on holiday when I was when I was on holiday. And I couldn't sit out in that. I think what we need for people to pay attention to this is an extended run of this. M has to stop feeling anomalous Yes. It's all very well having it for a week or you know, a period of time where, oh, the schools are off and oh, the trains aren't running because the lines might buckle You give it six weeks of that in the summer or eight weeks of that over the summer. businessusinesses will be crying out for things because the productivity will go down. there'll be staff won' be able to get to work, kids not going to school all sorts of things. and until such times as I think businesses take it seriously, that we need to develop infrastructure across the UK that can cope with the extremes that we're going to get. with climate change then we really are we're not going to do anything about it because you and I can bleat on about it until the cows come home. but until somebody turns around and says, right, well, I'm going to spend some of my hard earned cash developing better railway lines are you don't even need to sell it like that, of course. You can sell it has been good for business. as a whole bunch of economists have just had to write to Sharon Graham The trades unionist saying that net zero plans are not going to lose jobs, that if we do it properly, it will become a huge new industry. So you don't even have to sort of sell it as a bit of pill. But even if that happens, And this is I've got to be careful. Don't tell anyone I told you this, Tony, but between you and me I've got a little bit worried lately that I've turned into one of those people that blames the media for everything. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And I'm in it, so it's unhealthy for a whole bunch of reasons. But even if we now had a three month run of extreme heat. And you know, the sign at my underground station this morning said onlyn travel if absolutely essential. And that's, you know, that's an emergency type poster. On travel if absolutely essential. I walked down the steps Leicester Square yesterday, at Leicester Square tube station. And there was a woman at the bottom who I think had fainted, who was certainly being looked after and being fed water by concerned bystanders and a member of London undernderground staff You know, these and schools have been closed, people have been told to take their children home. appointments have been cancellled in an extreme heat summit The London School of Economics has been cancellled because of extreme heat. If that was normal, But for let uss say, two or three months The newspapers wouldn't suddenly start saying, o, maybe we should a little bit more friendly towards Ulez, even if it is a brrown man that's introduced it. They wouldn't suddenly say maybe we shouldn't be pretending that drilling for oil in the North Sea is a major political priority at the moment. Maybe we shouldn't be maligning Ed Miliband being a communist because he wants to turn the tem. Do you see what I mean? E if we were boiling, even if we were like that frog in that story. I don't know that the voices that are loudest in our country would change. But I think the two things run in parallel. the sustainability and the move to greener energy is something that should be done irrespective of what's happening with the climate, right? Yeah. If we continue with this head in the sand approach that we've got of Oh, there's nothing wrong with the claimate. Well keep doing drill, drill, drill, all that sort of nonsense then temperatures are going to increase so the world is going to get hotter, so we will still need to be able to better adapt to those situations. So irrespective of whether we are We bring in green policies or we're bringing green policies, we need to be able as a country to adapt better to the extremes of weather that we are going to get from now on, both hot and cold. because we can do everything we can to slow down the rate increase of heat, but we're still going to get our hot summers, we're still going to get our red warnings every summer And we're not and we're only talking about ourselves. I mean, the people whose political consciousness seems to consist of immigration and nothing else Um, that they u seem gloriously unaware of the huge shifts in population movement that are going to come about as a consequence of climate change. peopleople near the equator who simply won't be able to live there anymore. Where are they going to go? And what are you going to do when people point out that you were opposed to measures that would have otentially addressed that crisis before it happened. The letter I'm thinking of I'll share with you in a moment. More than forty economists have written to the leadeader of Unite, rejecting her claim that Ed Milliband would destroy jobs if he became the next chancellor. I'll give you the details on that after the headlines with Dominic Kellis It's ten thirty five spare a thought for people on night shifts as well who have to try and sleep during the day, which is going to be even harder than sleeping during the night which is tough enough. And those conversations are really easy to have. and I can't lie to you The temptation to have them is almost irresistible. It's not quite what's your favourite lolly territory, but I could have done that today I could have done that today. What's your favorite Laurie? And I love the question of who's got the hardest job But those are making light of the situation. that's a human response sometimes to crisis. It's a particularly British response, I think, as well And yet there are just these breakthroughs. occasionally the sort of the carap pace of your consciousness is pierced by an event. and you just go, this is absolutely huge And then you go back to thinking about lollies, which I am literally doing. Probably have a fruit pastel one the way, H have you had a fruitastel lolly? They're very good. They've just got the right mix of know you know the inside of a twist. I'm doing it. You see what I mean But you do know the inside of a twister, right? That kind of it's almost like a sort of hard soret That's the best lolly. I don't know that there is a whole lolly that's made of that stuff, but the fruit pestal comes closest. If you get it right, it's not too hard and it kind of just goes granular in your mouth, man al lie three hours on that, absolutely cancel PMQs. We'll just go in on the lollies. I could do who's got the hardest job on a day like today You know, and it would be fun as well as recognizing how hot it is. And the more I talk about it, the more I want to But I don't feel that we can because and our political discourse is still directed at negatively still demonizing the people who want to turn the temperature down which includes people from across the political spectrum, the leader of Unite has claimed that Ed Milliliband would destroy jobs if he becomes the next chancellor. Now some of her members, some of the members of her trade union will be working in the sector, the fossil fuel sector and therefore she has to speak up for them and their jobs will be safer if there is more oil and gas extraction off Scotland in an open letter signed by I think over forty Economists including Danielle Gabor, a professor of economics at the University of London, Danny Daling, the geographer, Kate Picket, the author of the Spirit Level. They point out that Um The climate transition is one of the largest drivers of industrial job creation in the UK economy Zero economy generates output worth over one hundred billion pounds and it employs over a million workers. As the sector expands, these numbers will grow further. The workers driving the green transition need union representation, good wages and champions in government. and here's the real kicker that I don't think An where like enough of us fully appreciate, myself included. They wrote There is no alternative to the green transition The effects of climate change are with us now Miliband is right to oppose further expansion of North Sea oil and gas, of course he is Yet it's also reported in the I newspaper, where my latest column appears today that Ed Miliban may consider actually issuing a license for more drilling in the North Sea for political reasons That's a bit of a red herring it's, you know bit of a red herring in the great scheme of things. And it's the great scheme of things that I want to talk about The reason why the discourse is so skewed and always has been is because people, noody rich is going to get immeasurably richer as a consequence of green energy. This is my theory. I could be wrong with oil and gas you sell it at such an enormous profit. that you will become addicted to the money If we start living and surviving entirely on sustainable energy, whether it's wind or whether it's hydroelectric, then there's no massive payoff tap of money. It's not even a tap, this enormous pipe. You know those pipes you can drive JCB's through This enormous pipe of money that pumps into the Middle East and pumps into the United States of America and pumps into the pockets of the people who got the shares and got the oilfields. It's inconceivable to ordinary people like you and I how big these sums of money are And to tell them that they're going to be turned off is absolute kryptonite And yet if you even think about it for thirty seconds energy that really cost anything. Once you've got the infrastructure in place, it just falls out of the sky. or shines down upon us or blows from the east It's I mean, it shouldn't even be a debate And yet here we are wondering why Extreme heat is not enough to make us worry enough about extreme heat Lisa is in soly hold. Lisa, what would you like to say? Oh hi, good morning. Goodight. I originally turned you on because I wanted to moan about Andy Berhamach and him wanting to get rid of Rachel Reeves. So we've got two people at the top table who weren't elected to lead us. But nonetheless we're talking about heat and I've got plenty of opinions on that too, so'll moveuck me. . Well, my opinions are based much along the lines of People are going to do mostly what's right for them now. so they're going to do what they need to make their life better now. So you people I think generally, people find it very difficult to think ten years ahead, twenty years ahead. and therefore they think actually, well, whether it' I want to fly to Mew York tomorrow. So it doesn't matter if that has an impact I want to have this now. And I said to your researcher, I just said, when the caveman or whoever developed the wheel you know, didep the wheel. I think it was Kemmy Badenu They didn't say that, oh eventually millions of people are going to die on the motorways because of my wheel you know my wheel. And also when people developed things that were fire, you know, whoever found fire they didn't think it was Kelly Baden Yeah, I think we're just going to have for everything So And he also said that when people do develop great things that help people in the future. So Alexander and this is definitely Alexander Flemy with the antibiotics and and other people, they also y, so gene technology, for cancer treatment, they are also dealing with what's going to help people now. It just happens to be, that also helps millions of people in the future So I think we are all very now related. And when it comes to the heat the heat, In this country, so nothing is nothing is going to stop people wanting to sort of cool down. It's how they do it I'm a great believer in green energy, but also having air conditioning in every public building. So you know every public building needs air conditioning. I was once a union rep sitting in a meeting when a new hospital was being built about twenty years ago. And even then I'd worked on wards, I know what it's like be hot in hospital, patients are boiling. and I suggested that they fit air conditioning in this new hospital And they were like, Oh, thanks for your input, but that would be far too expensive. And I said, Oh, I bet all your managers have got air conditioning in your offices, areven't you, blah blah blah becausecauseuse that was the way I was, more for the worker and the patient. And now that hospital, obviously was built withir c. M bree. Y He' a dummy a friend I'm used to have to getting my points across quickly. Anwways that makes one of us. That hospital was built without Aircon and we've now got doctors, nurses, patients much in this heatwave and it makes me so angry. Well I mean I mean the need for it now is inarguable. Keith bought one a few weeks ago and I was trying to buy one at the weekend and they're absolutely sold out. I couldn't get one anywhere, not even from screw fix. But that's not really what I'm asking. I like your answer because it's a human issue, this, and we will never feel it as urgently as we need to in the numbers that we need to because of course people are completely animated by it, but as a population, we will never feel it as much as we need to. What about when it is, you know, when there are trees catching fire in u in the in the Birmingham Botanical Gardens. What about when the evidence of it is absolutely. Inarguable and irrefutable. what happens then Yeah, So then people say, oh well, let's put the football on. Oh well, never mind, these things happen and people are very sort of just' just just we just think we're really clever. and we're not. We're just we're just sort of we're just sort of, you know fairly simple creatures really Yeah don't have a lollipop. Yeah. And I think but you know so the thing about green energy, so you've talking about Ed Milliband. So I personally't, you know, when I hear that people are protesting against wind farms near them, when they're protesting against solar panel farms, when they're that makes me put my head in my hands because these are so easy ways to generate you know energy and to. It's a no brainer, isn't it? And yet you've got people I don't want one near me. what do you want We we should build an o That's what you should do. If you reject a solarind a solar farm near you, you should get an oil refinery. Exactly. That's exactly right. and's. Stick one in Edmoston. Stick one in Edgemoston. They're far far garden. They're far too up themselves over in Edgemston I' have one in my garden. trust me, every. I think you might be onto something thereough Lise. I've loveved talking to you. You've got a beautiful lagh. I could listen to it all day. But I think you're probably onto something. and that's actually why that film Don't Look Up was so powerful because It's a relatively bleak analysis of humanity, isn't it to think that we only really care about what's at the end of our nose Chinese maybe it's not a species thing, Mbe it's a cultural thing because the Chinese mode of government I don't know if it's always been like this. I don't know if it was like this during the Ming dynasty The Chinese mode of government looks decades and even centuries ahead And yet the Western for want of a better word mode of government struggles to look beyond the next electoral cycle. And speaking of western electral cycles, when Lisa mentioned wind farms, who else Remember Donald Trump,' little obsession with wind farms Where was I at the weekend Brighton It's off the coast of Brighton, there's a bloody great wind farm. Did you know that? I spend quite a lot of time in East Angalia. There's wind farms everywhere. I mean it's so obvious when you think about it R rememember that farmer who rang me, L? was it last year? the one who went absolutely Tonto, screaming at me about solar farms and solar panels and this that and the other? Oh I' kky Why would anybody be opposed to the idea of running our national grid esssentially on stuff that's free This is like a film hundred years in the future. Do you remember Simon Amsteel's film about vegetarians? It's a brilliant What's the word I want? Conceit. It's a brilliant conceit which hasn't come true. I felt at mind actually when I watched it because it was such a great concept that fifty years from now Everyone will claim or even twenty years Everyone will claim that they never ate meat because it would be accepted. the population suuddenly wake up to the barbarism of eating the flesh of other living things or recently living things if you want to get pedantic about it Imagine just looking back. in a sort of what's the opposite of dystopia? Thank you, Keith, of course, topia. liivving in a sort of utopia in the future and looking back and marveling that a population that is born of the same species, fellow humans who were sitting around for a hundred years objecting to the idea of trying to shift all of our energy production away from stuff that kills us onto stuff that's free away from stuff that kills us and costs us a fortune and onto stuff that's free and has no negative health impacts That's it That's the historian of the future, R B. You may find this hard to believe of a teacher, a lecturer at some dim and distant point if our species survives, saying to a classroom full of students, Well, you may find this hard to believe, chaps But um Well, for about a hundred years, humanity was dedicated to sucking on the teet of fossil fuels and rejecting at every opportunity a transition away from things that were hideously expensive, fatal to humans, and incredibly dirty, and shifting instead towards stuff that was completely free and complepletely clean with that sort of thing Ed Miliban's a commommunist T fifty one is the time. What will it take? Szanne is in Insburg in Austria. Suzanne, what made you pick up the phone Hi, James. I actually live quite close to Winsbroke within a ski resort and the film donon't L up, the film donon't lookook upp kind of springs to mind. I mean we've got two areas on glaciers And we're literally watching the glaciers melt year for year. They're receding at such an incredible rate. There's mountains literally part of mountains falling down. It sounds dramatic, but I mean the rockfalls are horrendous. Buildings are having to be rebuilt because the permafrost isn't holding them anymore Um snow has to be artificially made in winter because there's not enough. I mean, as I said on the glasser there is but lower down And people still you wouldn't believe people still don't accept it. Well that was the question I was going to ask you. Is the conversation pretty much identical to how it is in the UK in America. Pretty much people are saying, oh, this happened before. We had winters without snow going back to the twenty thirties. Well, they did have winters without snow, but not because it was warm and raining but because it was just a dry atmosphere and it didn't know there was no No snowfall, no rainfall, whatever. I mean, the temperatures, it's so obvious. U And I think really the only thing that will make people wake up and see what's happening here is if literally the ski seasons end. There isn't any skiing anymore because people live' completely reliant on tourism. I mean, obviously that doesn't happen. I bed breakfast know It's the only thing I think that will really make people wake up and accept there's something happening. Everything else they find excuses for and it's just it's like any conspiracy theory, really. Even if because I'm fascinated by a blke called Don Plman who was essentially the inventor of climate change skepticism and worked for a law firm in Washington, D.C, and then was stuck on retainers by all manner United Nations members who were desperate to keep the oil flowing for obvious reasons. And I wonder what a world without him would look like, but someone else would have stepped up and filled that role. How I mean I don't know if we can separate the propaganda from the people because the Lady in Soy Hle was brilliant sort of bleak, but brilliant at just blaming it on human nature really. And I blame it on the media because have thisive belief that we would all be alive to the emergency if we weren't constantly being fed propaganda. But I wonder whether we would, I wonder if it is actually The question of looking at a glacier melting and just reassuring yourself that's everything is fine You don't need the liar in your ear telling you that everything's fine I think it's a bit of both. You know there are like I said, there are records that say you know there was warmer temperatures colder, whatever, but people don't want to see the big picture. They are I mean the businesses, the big businesses that run the Lift companies, things like that, they are doing an awful lot I mean literally put up well, they've put on the glassers. They've actually got, solar the photable tyages. they've got solar panels. they're running a lot of the lifts on solar. They do do a tremendous lot. They try they've got a whole environment, can't think of the word in English sry. They've got a whole program to to make things more sustainable. are Be they're facing existential threat, but only on an industrial level. It' like the industry is facing existential threat. Yeah, I mean, that's it, isn't it? This is the great riddle of our age What would it take? An existential threat is clearly the answer, but we are already facing existential threat, whether it's industry by industry or territory by territory. and it's still not enough. Thank you Suzanne a ckey. J, I mean everywhere And of course I'm unlikely to take calls from people who could explain the Chinese approach to these matters to us, albeit that our reach is far and wide, I't know whether or not I would be justified in suggesting that there is a kind of cultural difference in the way that we look at the world the way we look at humanity Because if you're planning hundreds of years ahead, then you are going to be building more wind farms and more sustainable energy plants than anywhere else in the world. And spoiler alert, the Chinese are, even as they continue to use fossil fuels because they know which way We're going and they'll be ready and we won' Karen's in Guineneer in Corwall, Karen, what would you like to say Hi James, it's a pleasure. And just basically to say I think the only time people will take notice is when it literally bites them on the bom. Well notot literally, Karen Well we could have a go. But I think ill people see on their tables, in their homes, in their work life, in their personal life, how climate change will affect them? a start How do we grow our food? Yeah? I mean, we're lucky in this country, we have a good you know, strong agricultural industry, but it's not what it was, but yeah, we do grow some of our food. Yeah. I mean, I think basically if People see that suddenly they're going to the supermarkets and the shops and the shelves are empty again. Just imagine what we went through in COVID to that a very high level of you know weather changes, extreme weather either way. I mean, if you remember the film day after toomorrow, quite literally The sea's salt supply which moves heat around the globe is breaking down And that's happening now as we speak. And the seeds themselves are becoming less filled with fish. We're going to have fish and you know lower numbers of fish in the future. I think it's somewhat like twenty forty eight. We're going to have more extreme storms what we had in the south last year The night before last it last night That's beautiful. Very common You're going to have people But the dots don't join themselves together, do they? You know and we adapt. So it's nice because we can drink English champagne now. we can drink English fizzy wine because they've been growing nicer grapes down in the southeast or down in Sussex, there's some lovely vineyards. and all right, so we're not catching as much cod as we were, but we're going to start eating tilapia or dogfish more. And do you see what I mean? mean there's a wonderful thing about humanity is that we adapt to changing circumstances, but we do so sometimes recognizing the significance of the circumstances that are changing Yeah, I mean, you know, it's a matter of We're not talking aboutiss the actual sea content just missing a few species We're talking about total breakdown of the ecosystem where some of our oceans and seas are going to be filled with algae and nothing will grow there. We're talking about farms that are not going to be able to produce the goods that we normally expect water We're lucky we' surrounded by sea. But imagine the cost of desalination to get drinking water I mean, that's To me, it's. No, I mean you're obviously right about all of this, but I don't know that even when things get worse the response will be to act as if we're in an emergency instead of to do What we've always know I keep thinking of Brexit, but you know you've still got people, a daily telegraph today is full of people pretending that it's all gone well or that they don't regret their vote. And they mean it. you know, if you stuck them on a lie detector, they would pass. I don't regret my vote at all because that's psychology for you. That's human beings. That's you know, denying the evidence of your own eyes and ears and believing The voice inside your head that's saying notothing to see here. Everything's fine. No panic, didn't do anything wrong. We're all perfectly safe. The Thames froze over in the eighteenth century. That's relevant for some reason d. I don't get it. I guess we just have to keep worrying away at this knot until we make some progress in unting it. It's three minutes after eleven and you know almost inevitably these stories just coalesce, don't they sometimes? I told you already that the climate change or the extxtreme Heat summit scheduled to happen at the London School of Economics has been called off because of extreme heat. There is another gathering in London today where various right wingers will turn up to insist that we need more fossil fuels taking out of the sea and the ground and the rest of it. You couldn't make it up. And I don't think that it is tiresome. I hope it isn't tiresome. If it is, I've got a horrible feeling that my message to you is tough. because I ain't changing any timee soon. But to point out how linked all of these things are, that essentially persuading people to vote against their own interests is a huge, huge, u Business That's why Don Pelman is such an interesting character. I really urge you to read up on him to find out more about him. Hopefully they'll resurrect the play Kyoto, which was my introduction to him to my embarrassment, I knew nothing about him before. but he really was The godfather of climate change denial long before it was a properly understood, the godfather of Tufton Street, I suppose you could call him But I do, I'm afraid think that you have to talk about the things in there collectively, all of the things that are evidence of people being persuaded to vote against their own interests. I said to you yesterday that if you like the cut of Nigel Farag's electoral jibs then you're either a billionaire or a mg And it's very easy to find out which one you are. You can just check your current account. him claiming yesterday that you're not interested in him being secretly gifted millions and millions of pounds, five of which we know about. God knows, however much more there is or isn't, because he ain't ever going to tell you. So essentially saying that he doesn't work for you. It's none of your business if he takes five million pounds off a foreign based businessman. He doesn't work for you. It's none of your business. Who does he work for? I don't know, but the bloke in Thailand that gave him five million quid in secret And a few days later, he announced that he wanted to be an MP again He owns the part anyway, I digress pointing out links U becausecause it's the tenth anniversary of Brexit today Keith and I had a pint of champagne each this morning to celebrate before we came on air in those special piint bottles or borises as they've become known, that now you can find everywhere from budgeons right through to Fortham and Mason, those wonderful pint bottles. I wife, I've done it again It sounded like Frank Spencer then I've just had a different idea from the one that I was gonna to do the phone in on We took a few votes yesterday on which call you would most like to hear Again. And there was actually a winner. If you exclude the one that I wasn't involved in, the bloat who was kicked in a head by a horse, which is just one of the finest moments in the history of radio But in terms of things that happened on this programe, the fish and chips lady. which is a long call. it's about thirteen minutes long. And it's been available. It's on YouTube and the rest of it, but that's the one that you voted for. So we may have another listen to that later in the program. And I was just thinking about the moments of madness the things that you look back on as being the maddest moments of Brexit or crucially of the post Brexit period So when everybody pretended that a point bottle of champagne. was important or desirable or a significant way, do you remember? I didn't imagine that, did I It was literally The most compelling evidence They had nothing, that the cupboard was completely bare, but rather than admit that, they find themselves pretending that it well we can have pint bottles of champagne. And you found a couple if you were like me, you found a couple of Vineyards, he phoned a couple of suppliers of fine wines He said, haveave you got any interest? You you got any plans to launch a pint bottle of champagne? I think one of them might have lied to the Daily Telegraph that they were definitely going to do it. But everybody else was like, Why would I want to go to the expense and trouble of changing my production line technology to accommodate a pint bottle of The maddest moment I had one online actually. when I think it was did David Frorosay was going to have a patriotic breakfast And I just found myself thinking, what have what an insane nation we've become So I posted something about you can't have a patriotic breakfast and I googled everything like sausage. When was sausage invented? and when was bacon first cured? When did we first domesticate eggs? And guess what? none of it happened here We didn't invent sausages, we didn't invent bacon, we didn't domesticate chickens And I just stuck it up saying here's all the I became the target of attack. I don't know that I've ever been rinsed more assiduously on social media than I was that day. I think someone even brought it up on first dates with Fred and Merlin on channel four It was just next and you sit here. Knowing that you're right, this is insane, but everybody else is attacking you for pointing out that it's insane Patriotic breakfast I'm going off to sign a document that will render the country measurably poorer in every significant way, but don't worry because I'm having some patriotic sausages. before and people start cheering for the sausages Is it should we do the maddest moment Have you got one that I've forgotten So there's two David Frost's patriotic brereakfast Chriotic breakfast pint bottles of champagne That's what they were celebrating. That's what they were pretending to be proud of or were actually proud of. I don't know I don't know Um That was not the plan. But if you want to join in on that, then so. What was the thing that the most bonkers Brexit moment? zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. I was with Michelle Barnier yesterday And to ask him. aboutb that moment when David Davis turned up with no notes Do you remember that photograph And Michelle Barnier and his team are sitting on one side of the negotiating table, and they look like they've got about forty eight filing cabinets behind them. becausecause guess what? They were aware of the scale of the job before them David Davis turned up with a smile That was itat David Davis sitting on one side of the table, gurnning for the camera, as Michelle Barnier sitting on the other with sort of the air of a man who's about to enter a seven day and night poker tournament Absolutely committed, nailed, stapled to the negotiating table. David Davis still thought it was all going to be very easy and a little bit of fun I what an absolute weapon He's probably still in Parliament if Boris John didn't stick in the house of Lords like he did all the other losers who delivered this nonsense Is that a bonk' Brexit moment? It isn't it? So we've got the champagne, we've got the patriotic breakfast, and we've got David No notes, Davis bonkers Brexit moments. We'll do that, but that's not the main phone in, all right. The bonkers Brexit, the most bonkers moment of Brexit, the thing that sums up the bonkersness of it most completely and most perfectly. zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three. is the number that you need. Maybe there's only those three. Maybe there aren't any others but I've got better I've got more faith in you than that But I want to make a list and in some ways, I also want to make a chart becausecause I want to know listen, I'm a nice person, but I haven't got any energy or patience left to reach out or to issue an olive branch to people who con and still don't see it. That's, you know, all these people go, why is the country so divided? Because you've lied and lied and lied A ten twenty years about everything from immigration to membership of the European Union to bendy bloody bananas and pint bottles of champagne, the country is divided between people who believe lies and people who don't And the people who believe lies really, really hate the people who don't believe lives. and the people who don't believe lies Kind of tried being all amenable and friendly with the people that do believe the lies, but there comes a point where you just go, what more can I do? Eventually, if you I can't help you. I can't stop you believing lies. You're going have to give your own head a wobble. I can't wobble your head for you So This is a conversation based upon the premise that Brexit was a disaster. is a disaster. It continues to be a disaster. And I don't care how many daily telegraph columnists they've managed to dredge up from the crypt professional irrelevance to pretend that it isn't and everybody knows that it is. Boris Johnson knows that it is. Jacob Rreece Mogg knows that it is. Nadine Dores knows that it is. Nigel Farrich knows that it is, better than anyone They all know that it is. The Daily expxpress front page yesterday about We demand a proper Brexit and then I read it, What are they demanding? or what are they claiming has gone well? What do they think can be done differently? The only thing I could find was an invitation to send the money to sign up for some new subscription service That's what the proper Brexit would be, giving more money to the Daily Epress. I like subscription services, by the way. I think they are the future of the media But I don't think the daily Expresses is one that you should necessarily be contemplating handing over your hard earned for. So who and what So you blame M But you blame most Because I'll tell you who is a front runner And it may surprise you who the front runner is. I just glance at the clock to see if I could drag this one over the hydration brake. I think I probably will. I obviously get buttonhold a lot about Brexit and I can only report anecdotally on who seems today to engender the most anger actually would be an appropriate word, but the most blame. person that is most blamed. for Brexit is not necessarily the first mark name that will pop into your head. all right? zero three four five sixzero six zero nine seven three is the number you need. To tell me and this is a serious question, obviously the most bonkers Brexit moment is not a serious question When you look at that knife edge result from twenty sixteen What do you think made the biggest difference? And I don't mean an issue Okay Obviously freedom of movement was Boris Johnson was promising even during the campaign, even after the result came in that nobody would be prevented from living or working in the European Union It's there, it's on the record. Boris Johnson was either lying when he said that or lying when he said the opposite, or somehow inhabiting a universe of am morality that allows him to hold both positions, both completely conflicting opinions publicly in the same brain space So And he's not the person that tops the list for many. What was Who do you think made the biggest difference zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three And as ever, I'm really interested in why. Who do you think made the biggest difference? Because what's really funny is how no one really wants that prize anymore Farage was dancing around for a while, probably under a year But for quite a long time claiming all the credit. calling himself Mr. Brexit doesn't really do that anymore, never mentions it. Didn't he tell Alistair Campbell off on question time or tried to when Alistair Campbell raised the ridiculousness of what has happened to this country as a consequence. It's just objectively a stupid thing to do But who do you think made the biggest contribution? either deliberately or accidentally. who do you think was the Biggest the most significant contributor to The national madness. all right. And I want to know why you think what you think And you can take me by surprise or you can tell me something that's relatively obvious, but I don't think it's an easy question to answer I think when we start digging into your reasons for nominating whoever it is that you nominate We'll see. I mean, in some ways, you only need to find someone who you reckon delivered three percent of the vote One and a half eer. onene and a half off the winers, one and a half on the losers and the result goes the other way r incredibly That's not what I want. I want the person who you think was the most responsible for the result person who was most responsible for the result And And I want you to tell me why you nominate that person And if you're very good, I may play some of the greatest hits from this show of that era. but I'd rather not to be honest. I might play one before One o'clock after PMQs, but what Who Who do you think is the most responsible person for that result Hit the numbers now, you will get through. eleven eighteen is the time. PMQ iss on the way actually, as I mentioned a moment ago, I've forgotten about that. I don't know quite what it will be like. I'd like to think that Kamy Badenot might be gracious towards S Kirist Stara now that he has issued his resignation, but I think we could probably agree that it's unlikely There's a cruel streak there that Tories love. streets, particularly in women, so it will serve her well, I imagine, but it would be nice to think that there might be an outbreak of civility as a As a man I think more sinned against than sinning prepares to walk the plank. and an awful lot of you have second guessed who I think was was most responsible for it. And remember, it doesn't have to be somebody T campaigned for it The person that you consider most responsible for Brexit doesn't have to be somebody that you that campaigned for, in fact, I'd say some very major contenders. didn't campaign for it, including the person at the top of my hit list. I said hit Keith, donon't panic person at the top of my hit list I think if you're minded to say it's all the fault of you James, it probably best to put your tupps away And I'd take the rest of the day off because well, A, I wasn't a particular player in the British media during the Brexit referendum and I was working for the BBC on the side as well, which meant that I couldn't offer up opinions quite as pungent as I am able to do and I'm not working for the BBC on the side. and also Pgram had About half as many listeners as it has now, so I'm very flattered that you think I am such a big deal and maybe I am. But I wasn't then, so that's a stupid argument made by stupid people almost certainly, currently being made on social media somewhere. twentywenty minutes after eleven is the time. Lila is in Haywoods Heath. Who are you going to go for, Lila Hello, James. Well, I've been m in my brains because obviously I'd like to say arage and Boris Johnson. but actually when you look at the timeline, I probably think that Theresa May had quite a lot to do that because at that point not the result, but what we got N the result, but what we got because she wanted to go for the full Monty, didn't she? Only because she thought she was maybe, you know sticking to the result but it was her interpretation on the results. And at that point she still had a lot of you know, one world touries pro remainers in you know in government before they all started to leave when there was that Parliament Parliament. Do you mind if I argue with you? What do. Thank you very much. Well because I think oddly she's probably the most pathetic figure in this whole period actually. And the reason for that is she's the one that had to bite the bullet and there was no earthly way she was going to be able to secure any of the things that the actual Brexiters had promised, while also getting rid of freedom of movement. And I think she accepted that there was no earthly way that she was going to be allowed to retain freedom of movement in order to retain freedom of movement of people in order to retain freedom of movement of goods or services or money. so she knew her redlines as it were were were imposed upon her. And once those red lines were in place, liars like Boris Johnson could still pretend that there was a better Brexit that he would be able to deliver. But of course he ended up delivering exactly what he'd castigated her and campaigned launched a coup against her for offering. the offer that she put before the House and the offer that Boris Johnson put before the house almost identical. So I don't know that I put Thesa May on the hook for it actually. It was an ugly period, but I don't think that she was I don't think she had any choice once freedom of movement was in play than to do what she did Okay, well, I me wrong. to it because after that it all went dramatically downhill. So what could she have done differently then I think she could have potentially support from a lot of the remainers within the government and put up a good case reinterpreting it. following the referendum. because as when we went into the referendum, no one really understood what they were voting for. How dare How go. No, you're absolutely right. I mean Itate you could reinterpreting at that point at that very. Yeah. But that's where I think freedom of movement just blows you out of the water. I think you're right in theory. I think you could have, because of course people were promising polar opposites. It was such a bizarre coalition the Leave campaign. And there were people who were furiously opposed to each other on what leaving would mean, but of course, they were on the same side on whether or not we should leave. So they were never going to be both happy with whatever we ended up with. It would have been an impossibility. There were plenty of people who said it won't affect the freedom of movement. I think it was the world's wrongest man, Daniel Hannan, who said absolutely nobody is talking about leaving the single market. But once freedom of movement is in play I don't think Theereresa May could ever have taken that off the table. But if she'd said if she hadn't invented the term Brexit means Brexit, which loated the world may but all the Brexiters go, ye, that's a good one. Yeah a simple one. just simple terms. It The second stupidest slogan of the whole miserable period, wasn't it? Brexit means Brexit? And therefore, it's a point in the timeline where you can say we could at that point have done something towards keeping us in the customs union and argued really well for it Yeah, o. I mean Yes, I like it I like your opinion. It's a little less bleak than mine perhaps, but I don't think that you could have and done any of that once that nativistic surge. I mean, the Daily Mail wouldn't have let her. And of course, the day that the Daily Mail published a picture of her on its front page under the headline The Steal of the New Iron Lady Her and Nick Timothy, the bloke that doesn't think Muslims should be allowed to pray in public in this country, her and Nick Timothy, who was her key advisor would have been high fiving each other. Yes, we've got Paul Daker on side we should have on our list, Paul Daker. Why did your mum vote Brexit daily mail? Why did your uncle Bob vote Brexit daily mail? Wh I don't know But not tosa May, not for me, but Lela has done a sterlning job of opening the batting. Chris is in Southampton, Chris, what have you got amleure to speak with you. The person I blame totally is David Cameron, but not because he took us to the referendum. There was a particular incident in one of these televised debates prior to the vote in which a question was asked about when Turkey join the European Union, one hundred fifty million Turks will be coming to Britain And people jumped on that. and some of the people I know were concerned about one hundred fifty million Turkish coming to Britain. It wasect and Cameron in the question didn't answer it. He didn't have an answer. He couldn't say yes or no, but it was very clear even then but one President Sarozi of France would have vetoed Turkey joining to Greece would have vetoed because of the occupation of Nthern cybrus. And the third reason is and I known some Turks, They didn't want to join. They were happy between East and West. But once this story picked up, it rolled and rolled and people were beginning to believe that there would be a one hundred fifty million tur who would be coming to Britain because they were able to by joining the European Union. And Cameron abdicated He didn't know his briefs with regards to that particular question. And he and he didn't bat it away by saying they would not join Yeah, I mean, Cameron is probably my nomination as well, although not in such specific detail as you because what and of course, we don't know how many people it was about eighty million Turks. I don't think it was one hundred fifty just to be pedantic about it,. But we don't know how many people were swayed by that. We know that nativism and or racism were a huge driver for a huge number of Brexit votes. and the idea that everybody currently living in Turkey would at the first opportunity come and live here instead is ridiculous. but then we' alllled. So were all the other reasons. And as with Brexit, as is you know, like night following day, Boris Johnson lied about it He repeatedly raised this prospect, including writing to David Cameron to warn him about the issue and then subsequently claimed that he had never said anything about Turkey during the referendum. I mean breathtaking lies from Boris Johnson, which were reported, I think by the Iependent in January of twenty nineteen. So yeah, Cameron on the hook for the vot. Yeah, I like it for the Turkey thing. I mean, I put Cameron on the hook for the arrogance of promising the referendum in the first place while believing that he'd be in coalition with Nick Cleg again and therefore would be able to say that one of the demands of Nick Clegg in order to go into coalition again would be that the promise to hold a referendum was dropped. He was too clever by half old, David Cameron I think that is what happened. I don't think that's a disputed theory that he presumed that the election that Ed Miliband led the Labour Party into would result in at best for him, something very similar to what happened in twenty ten and therefore he would be forming a coalition again. I think the Lberal Democrats were amenable to that idea. And one of the conditions one of the preconditions of a second coalition would be to abandon the promise to have a second referendum. And he Clever Clogs, Cameron thought that he could sell that to his own Eurosceptic backbenchers by simply saying, Well, look, we have a choice, either we drop the referendum promise or we're not in government And even the most bone headed Brexiter would probably have prioritized being in government over a non existent referendum. So that's probably why Cameron's on my list, but your theory is more intelligent than mine. Y rationale is more sophisticated than mine. It's coming up to half past eleven, getting I mean loads of brilliant text here, which I'm not going to be able to read a fraction of Jackie Walththam Stowe, number one camera, number two Farriage, number three Corbyn Robert throws George Osbourne into the mix because of austerity. Some people who didn't want Brexit voted for it to give The government are kicking. All other topics just entrenched voters on each side, but austerity actually made sensible people do something unfeasibly stupid people who weren't expecting to win a course. And Doug points out that Corbyn made the biggest difference. His band of obsessed, foolish followers would have followed his lead if he had had the courage to speak the truth. Well, it wouldn't have been his truth, Doug He was a lever. Right to his core sort of Tony Ben flavoured eurosceptic, although he may have struggled to mount an intellectual case for doing it, that was very much where his heart lay It's half past eleven. Dominiic Ellis. I nearly said Dominiic Cummings then, which just goes to show we're having a Brexit phone in. Dominic Ellis has your headlines eleven thirty three is the time. How many red weather warnings do we have to have before we have to stop calling them rare red weather warnings Now they become relatively frequent red weather warnings. That's a lot easier to say. But they are still currently red, red, weather red, red, red, red Rare red weather warnings. It's one of the hardest phrases to say in all my years as a radio presenter that. That's why Dominiix changed it. He doesn't call it a rare red weather warning anymore. He's called it something else I can't remember what, but I noted it in the in the eleven o'clock bulletin. But how many more do we have to have? Before we stop calling them rare red weather warnings and just call them red weather warnings. Oh, not another Brenda from Bristol Red weather warnings. Oh, no, not another one I don't know. Anway, we're not talking about that. We're talking about Brexit. It's like the good old days Ecept no one pretends it's gone well anymore, except really really, really stupid or dangerous people whichich unfortunately involves just about the entire opinion desk at the daily telegraph, the daily mail, the Daily Express, and Not so much the T times, although they've got rid of some of the more sensible columnists in recent years, because the editor there is a protege of Paul Dacer, who is on my list You know when you meet people A bit like when Trump first came to power and Americans would share exactly what Fox News had done to their parents' brains. had desiccated them, boiled them, removed them, lobotomized them So the daily mail has to Middle England. It's why Fox News, it's why we never people I always sound quite pompous when I say, people often ask me. But people do often ask me why we've never had a Fox News type success story in this country And the answer is we already had one We already had the Daily mail We already had a hugely influential organ. dedicated to spreading all sorts of xenophobic lies culminating in Brexit, which drove them all mad. That was a crazy thing. Winning drove them all mad After they won that they were publishing headlines like Crush the Saboteurs and Enemies of the People and our Remaining Universities and the steel of the New Iron Lady in the case of Thesa May. I don't know if that's a thing. Iss a thing in Greek tragedy when winning drives you mad You'd have thought that losing would drive you mad. And then they did all the projecting. So the people that actually went mad after winning started talking about Brexit derrangement syndrome for the people who were sane before and sane afterwards and just kept doing that really annoying thing of pointing out the facts pointing out reality Is there a thing in tragedy? Is there a thing in the classics? of people driven mad by victory Pam Was Priam driven mad by victory? I don't know Graam's sitting B, Gram, who' you blame Hi, James. Sskin. Welcome. Listen to your so religiously, much annoyance to my wife who wants to listen to music, but's very tot fact I love the fact I'm learning so much. I don't know much about it, but I do enjoy it. My biggest or my family and also friends of mine, our biggest reason for not wanting to go into Brexit was basically it was J Boris Johnson J ising around. Joring how much you could actually save by not paying into the EU Why do we want to pay that money into that when we could don't keep our national health going blah blah blah. As in the lie on the side of the bus was a big factor in persuading people to vote for it. It wases. Okay was it I thought it was against it because the money so it was against going into the Europe shly because that's the money're paying that's one of me to vote for Brexit All right, okay, I got that wrong. This' wrong for start. I't You've absolutely bambooled me, Graham. I've got no idea what you're talking about. P Are you saying that people voted to leave the European Union because it When he first went round trying to challenge people to join it, the bus said you will save this amount of money Yeah by not paying into the EU And that's what persuades us to say, let' don't go into the U. We're paying all this money into. But we're already in it. Oh what was F' Cus going around for? I didnn't quite understand that then I'm sorry, I obviously confused myself here That's all right. That's okay. Did you watch the football last night, C? Yes, I did. It's a terrible match. So. What do you think the score was It was stretressful no score. Oh than goodness for that. It was you're absolutely right. It was Nil Nil. I I have no idea quite what that conversation was about but I've enjoyed meeting you Graham and I hope you have a wonderful day. I think I mean, is it possible you've got a heat stroke I I've embarrassed myself. But you're ha to embarrassed yourself because you're among friends, but we were in it. We were already in the European Union and then the bus was giving us reasons to leave, but they were lies. So I don't know, somewhere in there there was an important point and you made it very well eleven thirty eight is the time. They're going to have a lie down in a darkenedom Jenny's in woods, Jenny, what would you like to say Hi For me, on the night next morning The minute. was a disaster to me was David Dimbleby saying the people have spoken, we're out. You're blaming David Dimbleby ot Fantastic. This is I'm going to turn up the volume. This is magnificent. Dimbleby's a saint. You can't blame David Dimbley. That's like blaming David Attinborgh. No no, it's not believing me. I've been on question time. the Because he said we're out, it wasn't like this is a referendum blah blah blah. No nuance. It was the people have spoken we'arre out. That's like saying that we think it's all over, it is now Yeah, I mean, well done for bringing a World Cup reference into it, but I what else could he have said? I mean, we voted to leave and he said, that's it. we're out Yeah, but we weren't. That wasn't what the vote was meant to be about. What was it meant that you voted for it didn't you Of course I didn't. Yes, you did more remainer than you. That's impossible. I'm James O Brexit. I'm the King of the Centrist Dads All right, I'm only teasing. I'm only teasing. So what could have gone different? I mean, I don't know that I mean, I'm enjoying this conversation and it makes more sense than Graham did, but I don't know that David Dim will be you much. You're very welcome. I don't know that David Dimbble be saying, that's the result somehow made everything go bad afterwards. The people have spoken we' out. Yeah. an unexpected result. This is the result. Where do we go from here You know, he said definitively, we are out. Yeah, but to continue with the football analogy, Jenet, he just told us the score. That's a win for leave. It was called vote Lave. But he's Saint Dimbleby. he's Staint David of Dimbleby Staint David Oin will be. The minute he says we're out, that's it. But we were out. It was vote leave. It wasn't vote sort of fuff about for a bit and then go home. It was vote leave that was It was that wisy No no no it wasn't No it wasn't. I mean, I know it was, but that's know it wasn't, but it was, but it wasn't, I sound like Graham now It wasn't mean, it was advisory, but no one thought that it was advisory and it would have been absolute carnage for them to turn around and say, Well it was only advisory. We're not actually going to let No I take back what I said about you making more sense than Graham. Allan's in Swimford in County Mayo, my land of my ancestors. Alan, what would you like to say Good morning, a's a great show. Yeah I'm not going to be saying grand to you, am I? That's You sound about as Irish as Dick Van Dyke. I'm from Nottingham, but I've lived in Germany for ten years and then retired in Ireland. love that. Gone. who do you blame, oldle? Just inter terms of the question, who's to blame? Yes Two people, Arleen Foster and on a lesser degree, Jeremy Corbn Yeah go on. You will upset an awful lot of people by mentioning Jeremy Corbyn. but'olutely sure But he should have been. I mean he refused to share a platform, didn't he with David Cameron and others when they were arguing for the same thing. That idea I was talking about Kammy Badenoock a minute ago and her probably being a bit graceless later when PMQs kicks off, whereas previous leaders of the opposition and prime mininisters could at least be called deal with each other and Corbyn refused to go on a platform with people who were ostensibly on the same side. during the referendum campaign. But tell me a bit more about Arlen Foster first Well, Arlen Foster and the DUP, despite the vast majority in Northern Ireland voting to remain in the European Union, they sided up with the touries took a ball effectively. A billion pounds of memory, sirve. Exactly. So it's homeet, which is farar just ten isn't it Well's still We don't know, actually, Farage might have got a billion pounds. Every cryptocurrency billionaire on the planet might have thrown him five million quid. We don't know. We only know about the one that the Guardian of reported just asking questions about whet it seems unlikely to me that Christopher Harbourn would be the only billionaire to bun the feeder a ton of money, but he's the only one that we currently know about. And you're right, because that democratic dimension to what you describe is despicable, isn't it? The idea that you would be representing Northern Irish interests by going completely against their expressed wishes and desires. I mean, without the service agreement, I think they called it Without a Soviet agreement, the Tories couldn't have stayed in power No, you're right. after the genius that is nick Timothy persuaded her to call an election and she came out of it with fewer se with a smaller majority than she went into it, which brings us back to the other fellow you mentioned, which is which is Jeremy Corbyn. Is it simply for his failure to be effective or is there more to it than that? No stupidity basically is ego got in the way and he gave Boris Johnson an election when all he had to do was wait. Boris had promised to get Brexit done by a certain date. I't remember the date now it escapes me but he was boxed in timeim was running out And Johnson stood at the ballot box in the sorry at the dispatch boxon in the Westminster and effectively taunted Corbyn that it would be the first opposition in history that doesn't want an election. and Corbyn took the bait. he gave him an election. And of course, we know what happened. Johnson lied his way through got a thumping majority. Pro Rogue Parliament unlawfully sent Jacob Brce Mul to Balmoral to lie to the quQueen, got rid of all the MPs that were still determined to tell the truth, even if it caused them short term professional damage and we went in the space of ten minutes from seeing Philip Hamonby Chancellor of the E cheecker to seeing him being deselected by his own constituency partarty because The lies had taken hold on such an extraordinary skcat. I think you may be I mean, I would put Corbyn on the list. I don't know that that bit of his conduct as leader is as crucial or as significant as you describe, but that's just a difference of opinion. For me, it was the failure to offer up any support at all for remaining in the European Union in any meaning and refusing to share a platform with the rest of the campaign, which just looks Chillland It does. I think the other thing is, I mean, you asked the question what could may have done differently? Yes. The referendum itself was an advisory referendum. It wasn't a binding one. Yeah, but it was Alan Well, if it wasn't, it was back to the people the deal itself, you know, that fantastic deal that they did. You knowm I'm just looking across the fie right now for those sun they put them see the sun they're going prly them f So if they've said, right this is the best available deal, we'll have another vote on that. Yeah know that works that works as a counterfactual. We can still do it. So it's measured twice cut once, isn't it really? Yeah ye. We've looked at it. This is the best we can get. still want to do it? And then you'd have Johnson you'd have Johnson saying that That's not the best that we can get And you'd have had Farriid saying that's not the best that we can get. And I suppose that 's logic for not doing that would have involved avoiding an eternal circling of metaphysical plug holes in that the debate has to stop now It's ruined the Conservative partarty. It's polluted British politics, It's poisoned discourse. It's turned family member against family member, friend against friend And here we are now saying, well let's have another big heated debate. So I can see why she didn't do it. But if that had been, and that brings us back to Cameron. They're all linked, aren't they? So Cameron should have had a much more sophisticated metric in place. I like that, Alan. And it ties into this text perfectly. I blamed David Cameron entirely because he called the referendum purely to solve internal Tory party politics. He failed to include basic safety nets like a minimum voter turnout threshold or a supermajority requirement, which are standard for massive constitutional changes because of his reckless miscalculation The slim margin Of seventeen and a half million voters representing thirty seven point four percent of the British electorate was able to permanently change the future of the entire country. And I'd add Allan's point to that actually camera and it could have been his gift. It could have been on his watch that the parameters of the referendum were set in a much more intelligent way Um But it's too late now So this is embarrassing This is from Mark. Hi, James. sureurely the one and only Matthew Tufton Street Elliot should be on your list. Love to the Fam. Thank you, Mark, Lo to the familyam. He is. So I wrote a book called How They Broke Britain, which essentially looks at how we became a country that would be persuaded or persuadable bu to vote to become the first population in human history to impose economic sanctions on itself And there are ten chapters in it. And Matthew Ellliiott was one of them But I've got one missing. so I just did a quick list. One, two, three, four, five, six. I've only got nine. and I wrote the book. Wh's the tenth? So I've got Rupert Murdoch, Paul Dacer, David Cameron Boris Johnson Domin Cumings Jeremy Corbin, Andrew Neil Matthew Elliott, Nigel Faragege Who's missing Wh's missing off the list L I said, Cummings someone will know. Anyway, Mark, you obviously haven't read it. Shame on you. Simon's in Lemou in France. Simon, what would you like to say? Hi James. Hello. For me, it's Cameron Yes.. He called the referendum and after calling it, there was no real outline as to what it was going to be. it was sort of cut and dried, once in a lifetime vote e in vote out and that was it. And he did it in a fairly half asked fashion as well. I mean you know he talked a lot about his own Euroskecepticism. He made that ludicrous trip to Brussels to renegotiate a deal that was already the envy of other governments dealing with Eururoskecepticism. The opt outs that Margaret Thatcher had negotiated were I think unique and he thought he could turn up and demand more concessions and more sort of favours because they'd be so terrified about the prospect of us leaving as. he comes back empty handed and He's almost hobbled his own campaign. And then coupled with the thing that I think was really missing from analysis at the time was the need for you know thresholds on turnout and a super majority for a constitutional change so significant to be delivered on a knife edge was hideous. Absolutely h. I think even Farage said, Oh, if it's really close, we should probably have another one because he was expecting to lose Yeah, absolutely. And then after it, what did he do? Just sailed off into the sunset and left the mess to someone else to clear up. Yes, you did. know you're absolutely right. and there it is. So Cameron is at the moment he's a head by by a neck. he's not sort of vying for the top spot with other people here is he is winning. I'm beginning to think nobody's read my book whichich can't be true because we've done about a quarter of a million copies, almost unique for a political book in the in this country, but Liz Choss is the epilogue, I think. I haven't opened it for about two years No one on my team has read it Keith, I can't tell you what Keith did with it Liz Chos was the epilogue, I think, for the paperback version, wasn't she Or did Liz Tust was she chapter ten? Was Liz Trust No, I think she was the epilogue. So I'm missing a chapter. Michael Gove didn't get one. Maybe Liz Tust was chapter ten and Rishy Sunk was the epilogue can't Well anyway, if I can't remember, I can't really expect you to. David Cameron and you know who nailed it. In fact, the person I quote so every chapter has quite a clever quote at the beginning of it from sort of, you know, significant political figures and the like and great authors of the past. The David Cameron Chapter guess who's quoted at the top of that Ananny Dyer It's such a great quote. He's in nice with his trotters up as's just brilliant. and I mean so to the heart of the problem as well that that Simon just described, the idea that he just sort of swaned away and took no responsibility whatsoever for what he'd unleashed. And the reason why he did it of course was because the lunatic wing of the Conservative Party was defecting to Nigel Farrad's outfit I can't even remember what it was called back then, was it UKip I don't know. Was it a proper political party or was it just another thing that he actually owned Pe like what was that bloke called Douglas Carswell a mark reckless were're defecting And and he thought he would be able to stem the flow by promising a referendum. and here we are Michael Gove didn't get a chapter and he hasn't had a mention yet. and it definitely what who sent in David Hasselhoff? No, thank you, Matt It wasn't it definitely wasn't David Hasselhoff. Jerry's in Nor, in Northern Ireland. Jerry, what have you got Hi James, first time caller. I'm not an expert on UK politics, so please forgive me if this is a little bit left field. Okay I would suggest that Ed Milliband has got a big hand on Brexit. Sorryd Ed Milliband Ed Meliband. Yeah. I know Yeah yeah. basically hang on a minute. this has gone in an odd direction this phone and I've enjoyed it enormously. I have to say, but I mean I thought Graham had probably sort of set the bar pretty high when it came to a bonker's contribution to the programme by not knowing whether we were in the European Union or out of it when the referendum actually took place But here you are, blaming Edmy Liband for Brexit. tellell me more, Jerry. Yeah, next up is are you blaming the cleaner down at the local shop? No I believe his brother David was going for labour the of the Labour Party, if I remember rightly. You do. I think he would have been a fantastic labour leader do believe he would have challenged David Cameron and potentially beaten David Cameron to the keys of number ten.. But his younger brother or I don't re is his younger brother or not, he jumped in with his with his other associates and challenged David and basically led the Labour Party to a defeat against Cameron, I believe, as well which then opened the door to allowing Jeremy Corbn and to they give him the keys to the Labor partarty And then basically Jeremy Corbn was so wishy she would have came to the whole Brexit vote that obviously he just lay it over. Well you I mean this works actually. It's a proper sliding doors moment, isn't it? I mean, Milib Band Sr. was expected to succeed Gordon Brown as leader. he didn't. hisis brother beat him to it and failed to beat David Cameron from a fairly strong position in twenty fifteen as a consequence of which David Cameron had to deliver. I mean, even if They've done well enough to force the Conservatives into a coalition withith the liiberal Democrats again, there would have been no referendum as we've already discussed. So it's all Ed Milliban's fault Beating his brother in a Labour leadership election. Well Well no, well, that means it's the fault of the Labour partarty membership, then, Jerered. Yeah potentially. Not even potentially Even if David had David Miliban hadn't beaten David Cameron, he still would have been a stronger leader compared to Jerery Mc Corbyn, and therefore he would have been more of a united front for anti Brexit Ion I take it all back No I take it all back. Gham has still set the bar for the most bonkers contribution of the day. You're absolutely golden. That's a proper sliding doorsmat. so it's all the fault of the Labour Party membership. Forgiving us Ed Milliband who failed to beat David Cameron and then subsequently Jeremy Corbyn, who failed to campaign effectively to remain in the European Union, which just goes to show that even James O Brexit can have a conversation about Brexit ten years after Brexit and still find untapped Genius and ideas and thoughts and theories that have not yet been shared. or explored or examined. And thank you, it does turn out happily that quite a lot of you have actually read Britain and I misreembered Liz Truss is chapter ten of how they broke Britain. That's why I didn't call it the guilty men. I wanted to call it the guilty men But by the time we got to because it's not just about Brexit, you see, it was about why the country was on its knees, why the NHS was in such dire straits, why the treasury had been immolated by asi uartang and his boss. So that was it's not how Brexit happened, it's how they broke Britain. So Liz Truss is chapter ten, than you to everybody including none of my colleagues that were sufficiently familiar with my book to remind me what Chapter ten was actually about Natasha Clarark is here to tee up When do they break up for the summer, not for a while? Not for a little while, but it does coincide essentially with this leadership race It's sort of underway now. So this won't be Kirst Ammer's final prime Minister's questions. We've got one next week, then he's due to be at the NATO summit and then potentially one more after that. But is that all? Yes, it's not long Before Kirst Amer, yeah, we'll bow out. he's mopping his brrait there. There must be quite hot in the chamber as he is Is it air chamber? Is it an air conditioned building? Well the last time I remember going there, it was air conditioned so' they look they do look quite I was thinking of going to a backbench debate tomorrow, but it's actually been postponed. so probably for the b Yeah, I think quite happily because of the weather We will cross live to the House of Commons as soon as Kemby Badeno gets to her feet with her first question for the soon to be ex Prime Minister I' It would be nice if she was graceful today and it's not impossible that she will be It's not impossible and we have seen a bit more grace from her over Kirama's resignation than we have in previous weeks with other topics. So I think she probably will probably start with a moderately nice message about the Prime Minister. you know Will she the credit for him going? exxactly gnore the internyed warfare that has done for him. Does she want to make political points about this Labour government? Proably? Will she do a who's who of Kir Stammer's record over the last two years? I imagine she might save that one for another week closer to his departure? Will she do the defefence investment plan again, which she did quite successfully a couple of weeks ago and that went on to become a really big row in government that's still due to be published next week and there's a bit of a row about whether Andy Berham stickses or into that one or Kir Starmer decides to publish that with what he's got. Equally does she just want to probe what does a Berham government mean? Because that is the question that we're all asking ourselves in Westminster. There's a lot of political instability and uncertainty about that. Even Kemy Badenot won't ask Kir Starmer It'd be really embarrassing account for Andy Burnham's non existent future government?ope I kind of hope she does because I think it'd be very amusing. and you know understandably he might be pretty miffed off if that did happen because it's not on his shoulders in order to do so. But it is an open question that everybody in the Labour Party is asking. and it's interesting that we've just got Rachel Reevesitt beside the Prime Minister. course was not with him when he made his resignation speech in number ten Downing Street on Monday morning, which everybody felt was a bit a bigger mission. She then was posing up with Andy Bernam for that big selfie that they had in Westminster Hall later that day. That's notone unnoticed.. And there are questions might be on maneuvvers. I think she's probably trying to keep her job. That what I mean Yeah absolutely Unlikely from the people I've been speaking to in Tam Burnham, they want a fresh start, They want to show change and I don't think they can do that with Rachel Reeves. On the other hand, you know what Andy Burnham said about the bond markets, They're desperate to keep that economic stability. and that's why they're talking about bringing in credit Exactly. Rachel the reason Rachel Rooves is there because she is, part in part, however, stabilised the market, stabilize the economy. and the government do have a much better record to say on the economy than they did arguably even a year ago. So when Kis Thomas s, you know he's leaving the country in a better state that he found it, I think there is a lot of credit for that argument, James Sasha's been in touch, they say it's one of those names that could be the male or female, isn't it? Sasha? they say, James, can you tell Natasha I'm a big fan No, don't be ridiculous. Get your own radio show So tell Sash she can text me himself. What else might Camy B did not do today Yeah, like I say, I think defense investment might be a good one. We would just discuss Yeah, potentially potentially, that's obviously been something which should they like today? That would be be your chemy b. We need more fossil fuels. speppet pass me a magnum. I did speak to someone earlier today from the Conservatives that mentioned the what they called a London aircon ban, which I was like, that doesn't exist. They said in the London plan there's some policies which would restrict the use of air conditioning on a sort of net zero basis. mayaybe she'll decide to go on that. It is the question that everybody's talking about, isn't it? It's the heat And what happens and how we decide to deal with that as a society. And Kemy Badennock has repeatedly ripped dead mdband, hasn't she over those net zero policies? She doesn't believe that anymore. She did when she was in government and now she's changed her mind on it So potentially we might see her talking about what the government wants to do about basically adapting our country, rail networks, oil and gas, all of these things to get ready for what's probably going to be a hotter climate going forward. Probably Probably. Yeah. I think that's a slightly redundant word is feels a bit maybe forty eight one way or the other. My things might get colder They might Yeah. And as I say repeatedly at this point on Wednesdays, we will cross live to the House of Commons as soon as Kenbe Baby not get herfy? Well for what could be ar Starmer's pen uultimate outing at PMQs. Listen, we have to point out that over the course of their clashes across the dispatch bolts, he stayed more or less the same and she has got better. That's definitely true. and we had some exclusive polling shared with us at LBC today, showing that more people actually think that she'd be a better prime Mister Nigel Farage, according to one poll that we've seen thats stump by. I this was going to happen You know I told you this She's getting better, She's getting better. Level of self belief it's both hypnotic and contagious. Okay, we can talk about that in relation to in relation to which school you go to later on. Yeah Well, here we go, here she is Thank you, Mr Ppeakident. and can I associate this side of the House with the Prime Minister's remarks on the horrific train crash, the attacks in Edinburgh and of course, Armed Forces Weak I want to start by congratulating the Prime Minister. He's the other party leader who won a by election last week. Although I think I'm much happier with my new MP than is Two weeks ago,, two weeks ago, the Prime Minister told the House that the government was funding defence and everything was under control. The very next day, the Deence secretary resigned, saying the Prime Minister was unable and the treasury unwilling to fund the defence of our country What changed?rpeak, she references the bialection. I am very pleased with our new Mber of Parliament. Can I also say to in Gorton and Denton, the Touries got one point nine percent of the vote? Can I congratulate her? because in Makerfield they got two point two percent of the vote just edging past c inin face She says they are winning everywhere at that rate it will take them five hundred years to get back into power., meanwhile, back on these benches, we have delivered the biggest sustained boost to defence spending since the nineteen eighties. That isUR two hundred seventy billion over this Parliament. That is a record. The defefence investment plan will take that even higher. that is about facing the future, We will finalise the plan with the defefence Secretary and we will have it published before the NATO summit. I think the Prime Minister forgot to mention that in Aberdeen South, we got fifty percent He says that he is funding defence. The truth is he would' not be in this mess if his Chancellor had found money for the defefence investment plan. The Prime Minister gave her the second most important job in Britain. She was the first female chancellor She lives next door to him, but wouldn't even come out to stand by him during his resignation speech. She was too bus, she was too busy getting ready for a selfie with the new leader. Does the Prime Minister feel let down by his Chancellor This is the Chancellor who ended austerity inflicted on our country for fourteen long years This is the chance we have got the economy growing,peer. she doesn't normally want to talk about the economy. that's because in the first quarter of this year, the UK had the fastest growing economy in the G seven. Our growth was upgraded by the IMF and the OECD. Last week unemployment was down. Inflation was better than better. That is because with this chance we have the right economic plan and we can weather the global storms in the war that she wanted to jump into. we are cheering so loudly if it's all going so fine, why is he resigning? She did let him down. She is the one who snatched the winter fuel payments, she is the one who announced a disastrous budget that killed economic growth. And because of her, once again, a Labour prime Minister is leaving office with unemployment higher than when he came in But the Chancellor isn't the only person who let him down The energy seecretary is putting up bills and killing jobs he's not here, is he? He was a failed labour leader, rejected by the electorate, brought back from the wilderness by this man, and when the going got tough, he jumped into bed with the mayor of Manchester. It's not the first time he's betrayed someone close to him, is it But does the Prime Minister think? does the Prime Minister think does the Prime Minister be that this treachery should be rewarded by being appointed Chancellor r, the Chancellor and I picked up our party six years ago from the worst defeat since nineteen thirty five. We turned it around But we made it face the country, and we won a landslide general election, giving them the biggest dubbing in their history. Thanks to this Chancellor, we have delivered the fastest falling NHS waiting list for seventeen years, with the money for new rights for renters and working people, and we are lifting half a million children out of poverty. the test for every Prime Minister is handing over the country in better shape than you found it. I know I can do that Which is more than to be said for her predecessor, her predecessor's predecessor and her predecessor's predecessor's predecessor., once again I have to ask if it's also fantastic, why is he resigning? And I think it is very generous of the Prime Minister to stick by his ministers because they didn't stick by him. He can say what he likes, but the people of Aberdeen gave their verdict, they gave their verdict on his energy secret by voting conservative. But to be fairrak, to be fair, to be fair, they're not all traitors and deserters. Some of his cabinet have been loyal. loyal and incompetent. Hands up if you think the education secretary is doing a good job. Even she doesn't think she is doing a good jobr. Even she doesn't think she is doing a good job. oers someone did, someone did. just for those For those who raised their hands, the two people who raised their hands, yesterday, a poll found that zero percent of teachers think the education secretary is doing a good job. zero percent. She taxed private schools to pay for more teachers but the number of teachers has gone down It turns out appointing a spiteful class warrior as education sectary was a disaster. Does theime Mister agree Do the Prime Minister agree that he has been let down by her incompetence The education Secretary grew up in poverty. She knows exactly what it means to grow up in poverty She was once reluctant to tell her story, I know her story. it is an incredible story of social mobility and success. I am so proud that she is sitting there and so should everybody in this country who cares about social mobility. She knows that for poor children education is absolutely vital. and that is why it drives every single priority and value that she has. I would have thought the party opposite would recognise and understand some of that, but they have fallen so low they do not No. , the fact is that if she knew so much about poor children, she wouldnt have given them fewer teachers. Teacher numbers have gone down. Teacher numbers have gone down. It's amazing I've never seen this much excitement on the Labour benches. cheering so loudly while there are four hundred knives stuck in his back. Shame on them, shhame on them They don't like it up, but they know that what I'm saying is true. there were times when the Prime Minister tried to do the right thing. He tried. He did try to cut welfare and who stopped him? those MPs behind him. In the words of the welfare secretary, his MPs only want to know who they can tax to fund more benefits. They are not labour MPs, they are wealthfare MPs. Does the Prime Minister feel betrayed by the people he got into Parliament just sorry, Prime Minister Can I just say, let us think about the language we're using I think that'll be the first of ls, please. Can I just say, think about the language using? Because when we leave this Chamber, don't be surprised when constituents feel they can use the same language against each other. Let us show a little bit more decorum and respect to each other P . I have tried to do all of this with as much good grace as I could, but I shall certainly miss these exchanges. I am very proud of every one of our MPs who with a landslide labour victory coming from all different backgrounds, from all different places across the country. We inflicted the biggest loss on the Tory partarty opposite in the history of their party. We picked up our party, we turned it around We had to address what went wrong, we turned it around, we won a landslide victory. She won't even address or even talk about their failure after fourteen long years Mr, he is the one who is resigning because of his MPs. There's no point trying to distract from it. and let's be honest,, the Prime Minister has made many mistakes otherwise he would' not be going But he has also been let down. I'm only saying what his staff have been briefing. He has been let down by an energy secretary who is killing industry, let down by a Chancellor who is killing jobs, let down by backbenchers who don't understand that government is about tough choices. He you turned again and again to appease them and now they've abandoned him. And what for? a pair of eyelashes and a black t shirt? Is it the truth that whoever is in charge? is it the truth that whoever is in charge, the real problem is the Labour Party , two years ago I walked into number ten and found a broken economy, broken public services and broken trust in politics. Because of our decisions, my decision, the country is moving in the right direction, a stronger and a fairer Britain, ending austerity, investing in our public services, the fastest fall in NHSs waiting list for seventeen years, more rights for workers, more rights for renters, standing with Ukraine Britain's reputation restored and half a million children being lifted out of poverty. Change promised by a Labour government, fought for by a Labour government, change delivered by a Labour government . My Hondon constituency is proud to sit at the heart of the UK's largest Jewish community in the London Borough of Barnet But today, many of my constituents, many of that community, are living in fear In Northwest London in recent months, we have seen Jewish charities firebombed, synagogues attacked, Jewish people stabbed in the street and all that against the backdrop of a daily drumbeat of abuse and in intimidation. I know everyone on these benches is determined to defeat this despicable hatred and I welcome the action the government has taking taking to root out the poison of anti Semitism.M Can the Pime Minister tell this House what the Government is doing, not only to protect the Jewish community in Handon and Barnet, but to make sure they We can live full and proud Jewish lives free from fear. thank him for his question. Anti Semitism is a poison and that is why I drive it out of the Labour Party In government, we're acting to drive it out of society new powers to ban repeated protests, new plans to root anti Semitism out of our schools, universities and the health serervice. a new prescription like powers to clamp down on malign state activity, which incites hatred and violence. And We will take further steps I am proud to lead this tolerant, decent country, and will always fight for the security, safety and freedom of British Jews Ed D, the leader of the Liberal Dovernatment. can I associate myself and my party with the Prime Minister's remarks about the horrifying train crash in Bedford and the appalling attacks near a M mosque in Edinburgh Our thoughts on prayers are with the victims and their families. And can I mention, today's review of Nottingham's Maternity serervices, which is truly shocking? I hope the Government will rise to this moment and implement Dononna Okodon's recommendations in full without delay r can I also recognise how difficult it was for the Prime Minister to make the statement he did on Monday? It is an important reminder as we debate issues robustly in this House that we are all human, and it is something that everyone should remember What is when relationships break down with close friends and allies. When even our next door neighbour barely speaks to us some of the time, H the Prime Minister's experiences opened his eyes to the need to rebuild Britain's relationship with our European friends and allies? Will he advise the right h gentleman the Mber for Makerfield to put his EU redlines in the past and adopt our plan for a new growth and defence partnership. Mr Speaker, I amm very proud of the fact that we have reset our relationship with the EU, and we're bringing it closer together. That is in the best interests of our country. and I know he understands that. And I know that like me, he has been reflecting on his own career. Given that he had revelations, he turned down a job with MI six I think the whole house would be wondering what might have been D O Davy. , it is very tempting to respond to that if I' signed the official Secrets Act. But I have to say on Europe, when history looks back at the Primeters time in office, I fear that clinging to those old red lines will be juded a mistake. moving on as weelter through this dangerous heat wave. We see the damage caused by extreme weather and climate change schools closed. Travel chaos, lives at risk massive costs to our economy and society And with our M office already warning that future summers will regularly break forty degrees at even greater human and financial cost, is he alarmed that some parties in this House still follow Donald Trump with policies to send temperatures soaring even higher? So will the Prime Minister warn his successor not to listen to conservative and reform voices and instead back our plans to cut bills and tackle climate change Can I thank him for raising climate change? because it one of the most significant challenges of our time, and the weather today reminds us just how important it is. It used to be common ground across this House, actually that climate change was the generational challenge and common ground that the UK should be a leader globally on it. and I remember not so long ago, the party opposite leading in the COP summit, something we were able to support. It is a shame that in order to chase reform votes, they have changed their mind and we have not got that consensus across the House. But I will always maintain that we must be global leaders on climate change and we always will be Mr Sakident Tty minutes after twelve Ed David they are very much channellling where we've been all morning on those two subjects of Brexit and climate change I don't make any particular point just just. case you'd missed it. There we are. We'll pick over the bones of that. I think my hopes of a gracious Exchange were probably dashed quite early on, but we'll pick over what did happen with Natasha after this fifty three minutes after twelve is the time. PMQ's is essentially over. the main bits, Natasha Clark is here. Well, it certainly wasn't gracious. No it really wasn't, James. Every hope that we had that it might be a little bit more of a coming together moment where she would might pay tribute to the Prime Minister was completely dashed. really trying to trash the Prime Minister's record And he obviously coming back with, I've got a lot of stuff I've done. I'm proud of my record. I feel like I've left the country in a better place than I inherited it. But yes, she went on the economy, she went on education, she went on the defence investment plan basically a sort of who's who of all of the policies that she feels that he's most failed on during his time as Prime Minister. But like could say, I think he had a bit of fire in his belly when he came back to her with all of those retorts basically saying no, I'm really happy with my record. And the problem is that she can always come back, James with the Well, why are you resigning? then why is this happening? If you've got such a great record, then why is it all tumbling down? Yeah It's tough It's foolproof. Absolutely watertight and it makes a mockery of PMQs really until He has been replaced because the backbenches can't really argue that they are responsible for his departure. Well, some of them definitely are because they're the ones that called for him to go. And arguably, some of those people sitting on his front bench today, his cabinet colleagues, the ones that we understand, some of them told him to go, are partly responsible for that, I'm afraid. And some of those labour backbenches more than a hundred have called for him to go. Some of those people who are cheering the Prime Minister on today are the same people that have called for him to quit. So you know is it whose fault is it that Kirst Stramer is resigning? I think part of them is their. Yeah. Well, it's certainly not hers, albeit that she would no doubt like to claim some of the credit. I mentioned earlier and I wondered as I said it whether or not I was being unfair that a certain type of Tory enjoys cruelty. There's a cruelty st probably true of other parties as well. But it's interesting that my inbox today is, I mean really unimpressed by the unpleasantness, but her backbenchers would probably be slightly delighted Yeah, and can I just say the speaker also was unimpressed by her language. He said, you know, can we just watch what we're saying? And you know, as MPs and politicians face threats repeatedly and we've seen some of them killed. It is you know difficult to argue that you should be using words like betrayal, traitors and spiteful are three words that I noted from Kemy Beader today. And it felt like maybe that wasn't For me, the week for that. I think you can trash someone's record and say that you don't think they've been a good prrime Mister without U words like that. And look some people will say freedom of speech, we should be able to use these words, but we are able to use them. We just choose not to out of a sense of decency and decorum. She's not chosen to use words that may have been slightly softer. she's chosen to go in incredibly hard on the Prime Minister and what is already a tough week. Some will say, Well, that's her job. She's leader of the opposition, she's making political capital out of what is obviously a difficult situation for the Labour Party this week. And interesteresting that obviously Andy Berham staying away. I've not seen and I don't think I've talked to a few people I've texted a few people in the Chamber. It doesn't look like he's there at all I think that's probably for the best. He would have absolutely distracted from Primeis's questions had he been sat in the back chuckling along at the PM's jokes or whatever. Yeah,'s probably a good thing for today that he's holold up, presumably in that office in Westminster. We understand he is sorting out his top team, his priorities, his policies and having those access talks with the civil service Indeed. Yeah. And what is the timetable now? justust reminders. I know that we've done this before, but in the absence of any other challenges, what happens next Yes, so in the absence of any challenges, James, formally nominations will open for the Labour leadership on the ninth of july. This timetable seems to be entirely around the Prime Minister going to NATO, which is happening sort of fifth six, seventh And it doesn't seem like they they want to do anything before then. The PM, we understand, is quite keen to get this defence plan. ground and launched so it can be like his final act in office. There is obviously a lot of discussion going on about whether that should be allowed. Yesterday, number ten told us, you know the Pinis is not going to be announcing a new policy, any new major funding. They consider this as something that's already in the can because it's already been sort of signed off and agreed, but it hasn't been signed off and agreed. That's the whole point of this big row And yes, by the seventeenth, I imagine we will get a new prrime mininister if indeed no one challenges Andy Burnham today. Darren Jones said he wouldn't be doing so. We were only really waiting to hear from one man. That's Al Karnes, the former defeense minister who has suggested he might run. I don't think he's going to get the eighty one MP's needed so's probably got his head turned a little bit by attention he receivedes he hasn't received a great deal of attention since coming into Parliament. and or he's angling for Defense Sectary and And Andy Berham Govern, which is possible. a bit like maybe Daron Jones is angling for a job Andy Burnham's government too, a bit like Rachel Reeves probably is angling for a job in Andy Burnham's government. They are all thinking about what comes next and whether they can be a part of it. Paul in Somerset speaks for about ninety nine point nine percent of my inbox when he says Baden absolutely disgraceful and disgusting shame on her And a couple of people, Annie included pointing out that her time will come as well. And as you've already pointed out, Natasha, Islama was pretty punchy himself, although the tone had already been set by the leader of the opposition. I'm just just trying to find something positive to say about warmer words about Kemmy Ber. H we go. This is Nick James may bemoan Kemmy's sometime misinformed pronouncements. What I think she's absolutely magnificent. She' getting better every. I do say that every week. I told say that every wee. I told you that she was about to other people are about to start believing that she's brilliant notot just her and it is now happening, but anyway. You're manifesting Kemmy Badenock's popularitity? I am, which like she used to do in the mirror. Yeah. You are a serious person then you are going places and she is now, it's working. It's like Noel Edmunds. James may beman Kemy sometimes misinformed pronouncements and refer to her as an end An NPC, what's that people Well I don't know. I hope that's not rude. but she has more personality in one of her high heels than Starmer's entire soul That doesn't sound pervy at all, mate in touch. twenty nine minutes after twelve is the time. There's a good story here by Natasha Clark on the LBC website,y Vaderoock. has demanded a stop to the noisy downowning street protests, branding them a national embarrassment. And this is a clever move by her because she's doing it after I Kia Starmer's resignation speech was disrupted, whereereas if she was doing it after one of her own speeches had been disrupted or one of her own people's speeches had been disrupted, it would sound less authentic and less persuasive. But I agree. I think Steve Bray is his name, isn't it? I think he has delighted us for long enough. I personally agree. We haven't had a response yet from mister Bray at this, but actually you know when we talk about whether Kemy Bend it was going to be sort of in this now, then I read that letter that she wrote to Mark Rowley about Kir Stama's resignation and I thought actually maybe she will go go in on PMQs and be quite a bit more kind to him because that letter struck a very good tone. You know, she basically said, why is it that the Prime Minister is not able to resign with grace and with you know with the public being able to hear what said essentially. She makes a good point, I think she speaks for a lot of us, especially those of us in Westminster who have had to I just wanted to hear the Prime Minister resign frankly. I mean sometimes it's quite fun to have peopleeople sort of you know betrolled almost in real life, but not at a moment of significant constitutional import. He tried to blame me. Steve Brade I'm told. Will Gy's been in touch and I did know that. Dominic Cummingss uses this phrase all the time, a non player character ' like in a video game. It's one of the one of the characters in a video game who you're not controlling But I don't think I've ever used that phrase to describe Kemy Bader not, but then again, neither do I fantasize about her high heels. So there's clearly quite a lot that we don't have in common with that textter Yes, he tried to blame me, He said that I'd revealed that His Starmer's favorite music was owed to Joy, but in your pieces, you point out that's what he told Maura Stewart on C classic FM, isn't it that it was one of his favoriteieces music. Yes, that's right. Happy to correct the record that it was not in fact. I for everything. I can't believe it. So Eleinor said to me the other morning, he said, Steve Bra' blamed you. playing the ode to Joy. I said, donon't be ridiculous. I said, No, seriously, she' played me a clip of it And he was blaming me. was it blame or was it a li? I had a call earlier, tried to blame me for Brexit So blame for Brexit, blame for Steve Bray ruining Kirst Aarmmer's resignation. I'm getting blamed for Kirst Starmer's resignation by some people. as I get blamed, it's just not fair, Keith. honestly How is it too late for me to retrain as a music DJ It's Amelia Cox with the headlin It's top thirty five, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC I'm going to play fish and chips, lady. before close of play today, not least because my next guest has made me feel a rare frison of embarrassment for not knowing as much about Brexit as I thought I did. I'm James I Brexit. For goodness sake Um Lathed and beloved at equal measure, depending on whether or not you were in favor of becoming the first population in human history to vote to impose economic sanctions on itself or outraged, disgusted and discombobulated by the prospect. So we will play fish and chips lady, one of the all time greatest Brexit calls to mark the celebrations of the tenth anniversary, which have been strangely muted among the actual people that actually wanted the actual thing No celebrations at all, no champagne corks popping out of pint sized bottles, no street parties, no maypoles, no dancing. And I can think of two hundred fifty six reasons, Johny Bloom, why that might be because that is what you have assembled. under the auspes of the excellent New World newewspaper a book which is essentially a history of Brexit in two hundred and fifty six disasters. that mean Where did that number come from? Is that just what you were left with after you'd assembled them all? orr does it have a deep and meaningful significance It has a slight significance in that it just shows how honest we are because if we wanted to, we could have tried to get a round number, like three hundred and one or something or two hundred and one. But I just got to two hundred fifty six and I ran out of meaningful paragraphs I could write. so I stopped there in an act of great honesty, I must say. And what criteria did you deploy Um I reckon I could do quite well off the top of my head I'm not going to get anywhere near to triple figures. So what did you do? How did you rememind yourself and refresh your memory, unearth new disasters. What was the modus operandy, Johnty? Well it was relatively easy because I've been writing for the New World magazine for quite a few years since I left the BBC and nearly every article was another story about how disastrous Brexit was. So I just had to go back through my previous writings to a certain extent and just put them in again. But also there was other stuff. I mean, I got sent stuff by my editor to include and I did it by section. So the first section is, you know, the big picture likeike you say, declaring a trade war on yourself, you know, the whichich an American economist told me many years ago was the first one in history. And then what lo and behold, Donald Trump did it again. So you know, it's becoming more fashionable. So we started off with the big things And then, you know, there there's a lot of kind of analysis of different sectors like manufacturing and tourism and academia and services in the city and so on and most of those it's, you know, I knew about already It was just writing them up really. Well you took me by surprise with a few of them and possibly it's fair to say the sort of less headlineed stuff. I didn't know that Jude Bellingham, for example, had applied for his Irish passport because La Liga, the Italian leeague limits all teams to five non EU players from their squads. so he' swerve that requirement by dint of an Irish passport. and I liked the comments from the lead singer of Wolf Alice about music becoming an increasingly middle or upper middle class pursuit because the money that you would ordinarily make from touring Europe has essentially been cut off. and so you're going to need a little bit of private funding to stay in the game for long enough to make a name for yourself and push forward. Do you have any sort of favorites from that less obvious side of of the scandals and the shocks I think one of my favorite is the fishing industry, which was used throughout the campaign as this kind of the idea that it's a massive industry and, you know, we're going to massively expand one pro Brexite or fisherman said that he thought fishing could become three percent of the British economy whichich when you think that it's n point nght three percent of the British economy, it was absolutely farcical And the fishing industry is less important to the British economy than Hard's. Yes. and and then the real killer was that it turns out that all the fish we catch like shellfish and all that kind of stuff is loved in Europe and not eaten in Britain. so The fisheries industry exports like eighty percent of everything it catches and we import sixty percent of everything we eat and therefore putting border controls on fishing. has been absolutely disastrous for the fishing industry. And yet it was held up as this You know, the great future for our coastal communities is everyone will be sending their sons and daughters out on the trarawlers again. And that the rough calculation. that would involve the fishing industry growing by a factor of one hundred percent, I think or one hundred times hundred times. So more than one hundred percent. That would just be a doubling. It would have to be a hundred times bigger than it was before, bless them We never hear from that lovely woman in Loweroft anymore, do we who used to ring in to talk to us about fishing. La Liga, of course is not Italian. I don't know what I'm talking about is Spanish. But Jude Bellingham is from Stourbridge I I mean we can laugh, I'm sure it was similar for you and the illustrations that Martin Rilson has done to accompany your text are as you would expect, quite brilliant There is that underpinning and we've been talking about it a bit this morning That underpinning sense or wonder why was this not more widely known at the time? And rarely is that as appropriate as is in the context of fishing. Did you find your spirits dipping as you reflected and recalled the massive, because you mentioned your time at the BBC, Johy, it was an epic failure of journalism, Brexit Yes, it was. It was a total failure. I'm afraid I was part of that So I Shortly before I left the BBC, I took part in a kind of discussion, one of the lunchtime seminars they have aboutb Brexit And I was there with another correspondent who had covered Brussels a great deal. and we were asked a question by another member of staff about our reporting of the Brexit referendum. And I said, well, I'm leaving soon, so I'll handle that. And I said We were utterly outraged that we had to pretend to find people companies that thought it was a good idea And then and then find a company that thought it was a bad idea and go, well, look, it's a fifty fifty choice When in fact, it was ninety nine percent of companies thought it was a stupid idea and one percent thought it was a good idea Well, to tell you something about the BBC After that seminar My boss took me aside and said, Well, if the Red topops find out about this Johnsy, there's nothing we can do to protect you All right. so u I'm supremely unsurprised by that, mate, but I'm still shocked Be I course it was that fear of being monstered by Paul Dacer or being monstered in the sun that led management into such a cowardly position It was It was patently obvious what was happening And funnily enough, during the referendum campaign, we had a meeting of my of the business unit where I worked And They had a kind of hands up everyone who thinks we're going to leave the EU, who thinks a referendum is going to vote to leave And I put my hand up and everyone said Oh come on John, We know you're pro EU. You know you've worked in Brussels Why do you think we should leave? And I said, I don't think we should leave. I think we're going to leave because I get out of the office more often than you do. and I've been to all these places that absolutely hate the government and have been left behind and hate immigrants and blame everything on them and on the EU and they are being riled up they're being stirred up by this campaign deliberately to blame everything on Europe and they're going to vote to leave And that's what happened. And we and the BBC and many other organizations too, We're just complacent They thought you know, Leave can't possibly win. Why do we have to try so hard, including to be Honest, a lot of the business organizations, a lot of the companies wouldn't come up and put their heads over the parapet and say what they really thought. They relied on the CBI and the Employers Federation and the Chemical Industries Association and a thousand others to do it for them And then those organizations were just slagged off by leavers part of the establishment Yeah project for There was so much cowardice. And fear. I mean, well, cowardice and fear, I suppose are cousins, aren't they? And some people were genuinely fearful of getting the kind of treatment from Paul Dacre that even high court judges were not immune from. As you talked about fish, Id turn because the book is punctuated with A word I can't really say on the radio. Brexit BSs, we we will call them And Jacob B Smog saying the key thing is we've got our fish back They're now British fish and they're happyer fish for it. How did people get hold of of the toe You can find it on the New World website You can also find it on Amazon Although on Amazon, I'd suggest you don't search Johny Bloom because There is a quite I would say no more people are going to find out That's saying donon't touch the plate. it's hot. Johny Bloom, the newew world I refer to it as a newspaper. You refer to it as a magazine. Either way, it's absolutely required reading. drops through my letter boox every week and it is now as welcome as private Iye. History of Brexit in two hundred fifty six Disasters by Johny Bloom, illustrated by Martin Rausson Forward by Alistair Campbell, all it needs is an endorsement from me to become Brexit Nirvana and there it is. It's twelve forty four Okay, here it is, the most voted for Brexit callall from the Glory Days of this programme, Christine in Southampton on the eighteenth of july twenty nineteen I'm patriotic. I'm a Bit exoter. If we've got to get out with no deal, we do. R am Because I'm seventy years old, I work for Mullards, which was a Dutch based firm. and they said if I don't vote for Europe, I lose my job. But I'll tell you what, I voted for Europe, not for them to control us But you just said we need to leave with no doub. I'm just wondering why. I l j I've lost my job anyway because it closed down in the end. Yeah. It went from one company to another. So I'm sorry. why does that mean every Why does that mean the whole country has to leave with no dout? I'm very sorry that you lost your job, but why would that make you vote for a policy that will mean lots of other people lose their job Oh We have had bad times in this country and we've had good times and I've gone through the lot. We've come out on top because of character. He's right. We can source stuff from the rest of the world. first. Well, I'll give you an example. do. The guy who owns Werspoons, when we got the vote that we wanted to come out He started sourcing from other places in the world for a lot of his goods. And he wrote it in his magazine. That's where I read it from. And he said he sourced goods, I think it was brandies all sorts of. Was it cheaper than what he was getting from the European Union? Just as good. So why wasn't doing? You realize he was doing that before we left Because we were part of Europe. But we still are. so why couldn't he have done that?rist just pause for a little moment, if you would. I'm going to take what you said on trust. I'm sure that he did manage to secure bring him on. Absolutely, I will. I don't need to. I've got you here to represent him, but he's more than welcome to ring in just as everybody else is yourour evidence that it's a good idea to leave is that he found cheaper drinks before we before we left And he pass he passed it on. Well, they were all preparing if we got if we But Christy just again, I'm sorry, but you have to just reflect for a moment on what you've just said. We have to leave so that Tim Martin of Weerspoons can do something he's already done Yeah, because he did it to prepare for if we had he could do it Christina, I'm going to labour this point and I do apologise because it's not going to be pretty. But we're still in the European Union. We are at the moment. And he did this thing you're telling me, we have to leave the European Union to do No, what he sayays is an example of all the remoners who keep No, no, no, no, Christine. stop stop using insulting language. Okay. You that. He has done something I'm very sorry to hear that. But here's the thing, Christine. If this is the example you want to if this is the bridge that you want to build You've just told me that he's already done it Yes, preparing for it. Yes, but he's already done it and we're in. So we're in the European Union Right Yeah, and he's moment and he's already done it Yes, because he foresaw the future. Yeah So here's the question, Christine. whyy do we have to leave to do something we could do while we were in it? Because they're still controlling us. They've got no respect for this country. I've seen some of the things that have been going on. Go on, tellell me. I love Britain. I love what it represents. I love what it gives to the rest of the world. You've hated it since nineteen seventy five though Pardon You've hated it since nineteen seventy five No, because we weren't so controlled there. So what are the controls coming So talk me through Aually no, I'm not going to let that go Christine. I think you need to take on board what you've said on national radio. Y I am taking on board. Youve said curious when I was listening to it. We have to leave the European Union because Tim Martin has done something while we were still in the European Union He did it because he prepared for us leaving like a lot of us But how could he do it if we weren't allowed to do it Be of all those controls. You will have to get him on I'm only going by what his magazine said. But you must understand what you read. How could he do it if we're not allowed to do it Well, I don't know, I'm not a big businessman. No, well, I was impressed with what he said. But if you find a hundred big businessmen between ninety and ninety five of them will tell you that we're making a terrible mistake. Why have you chosen to believe this businessman? That Mark Carney? Wh not understanding what he's done Mark Carney is man someone who said if we leave Europe, we're going to go down the ban. but he's changed now. He hasn't changed.ife been reported on. Kristine Ai hasn't changed. And Mark Carney was the person the morning after the result who enacted economic policies specifically designed to minimise the impact of what he wanders against Well, I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. I really Which bit don't you agree with, Christine? Which bit don't you agree with? I don't agree with the fact that we are not going to be able to trade with the rest of the world. You just heard this morning from the Secretary General of the International Chamber of Commerce for the UK. Of course we'll still be able to trade, but it will cost us a lot more to do so. and we won't be able to trade freely come november first with anybody That's not an opinion, Christine. That's a matter of fact. But haven't we heard a lot of things like this from a lot of these top people? No. And then they've turned round and said This isn't going to happen and that's not going to happen. Well again, Christine, could you give me an example? We were told, Yes. Tablets, pharmacy. We weren't going to get this. We haven't left But Kristine, we haven't left. No, but they are able to source from other places. Yes, but not under free trade agreements. Well, I think I'm sorry. Why do you keep saying sorry? Well, no, All right, I don't apologise for want to be a Brexiter. What do you think that means? I'm going to ask you again back to the original question Do you understand now why what you said about Tim Martin was a bit silly? No. Okay, let me try again. The thing is you will not get me to say that. You will not get me to say that. Okay, well not silly then, but do you understand that he did the things you described when He went and he sourced other places while we were still in the European Union Well so he could have done that he could a vote to come out. Yes, but we're still in. So anything he has Well at the moment we are Yes and he's done this thing that you describe in such in such impressive terms, this thing he's done that convinces you it's right that we should leave. he did it while we were in Right. Okaykay How come we source all our metal to China? If we're not allowed trade agreements? Pardon? If we're not allowed trade agreements for the rest of the world. No Who said we're not allowed trade agreements?? That's what you said it's going to happen? No, I said on november the first we won't have any. And I'm not an expert on metal trading, but I'm pretty sure we don't trade freely with China So there are tariffs in place. Yes, but it hasn't harmed us, is it? Pardon? It hasn't harmed us having trade agreements with China. We dont We don't have any trade agreements with China. Well, I'm sorry. Why'd you keep saying sorry, Christine?? Because you're getting annoyed at what aren't you? I'm not remotely annoyed,. I'morry if I'm upset yet. I'm not even upset, Christine. I'm just I think the word I would use is frustr No, I feel incredibly sorry for you. Well, you don't have to. No I know I don't have to. a strong person. I'm sure you are. but you don't have to feel sorry for me and you don't have to feel sorry for a lot. I know I don't have to. I choose to feel sorry for you because you have believed a fgo of lies and you've come on the radio to explain that you voted You' voted for lots of people to lose their jobs because you lost yours No. Yes. No. I don't want people to lose their jobs. but But that's what's going to happen. Fward I'm sure that a lot of people would be proved wrong Right. But you realize these aren't opinions. You are' these aren't november the first. We have no trade agreements. At the moment, we have agreements with one hundred and twenty different countries. We're all in Europe But obviously not, the European Union has all sorts of trading agreements with countries outside the European Union, which is what we will be On november first. Well, I't What do you think is going people? What do you think' going to get better? What do't have control of our country back? Control of what, Christine? What's the thing we can't currently control that most frustrates you? They Theyve said a lot of different laws have had to change. I can't remember them now. You must be able to name one Okay. All right. Now this is this is a crazy one. But we all used to have our fish and chips and newspaper. and then it was deemed it was wrong. Right. Now when we had the fish and Chips and newspaper, there wasn't loads of people went down with Cing up sets and things like that. It had a beautiful smell to it and I can remember that smell now and how lovely it was. But they decided. and this is a. And that was the EU, was it? Yes, the EU. That was something they did. And I'm sorry and I listen I listened to the European Parliament And I listen to some of the things they say should be done, shouldn't be done. I'll tell you what, we put billions into the Europe. Do you see the schools and the health service any better? Better than nineteen seventy five.ries in the poral country. Better than nineteen seventy five. Yes. You think things I would like to them have decent schools and decent health. Right.'ve gone into that. So taking away the money we pay in to the European Union is going to make Less money available for the poorer member countries, Christy, not more. Well they have made it available up till now I'm afraid they have. I mean it's so easy to establish where this money is spent. The European Development Fund in particular because they love what we've got over here and I don't blame them for coming Wh have you voted to get rid of it all then because I just feel as a patriotic this country and I'm talking about all the different But Patriotism involves wanting what's best for your country Yeah. you voted to make it worse? No I. Well tell me what's going to be better then. Apart from possibly we'll be allowed to wrap our fish and chips in newspaper again. Apart from that, what are you most looking forward to? I'm looking forward to maybe not having so much immigration into the country. O And I'm looking forward to having it How did you feel when you found out that successive governments had chosen not to impose much stricter immigration regulations that they would be free to do as members of the European Union, as for example, Belgium does Well, I'm sorry why are you sorry again Well, o, I'm not sorry. No sorry. There's a sense that you know you should be because you keep saying it but just the things' just But patriotism doesn't involveilty for things No, no, no at all. I'm giving you Well why I mean you think, well then you're not patriotic, are you? Because you' voted to make everything worse? No So what's going to get better Well, for a stA., apart from fish and chip paper. No, for a stA. we won't have such big lifts on the National Health Service. that' willll probably st. What about all the doctors and nurses from the European Union who are already leaving? Who do you think is going to replace them? You've got in place plans for that. You have? Yes. You've got plans in place. The old wayd of nursing that I learned. Okay Try and you take care, All right? OkayK, We will be to disagree. No, we haven't disagreed. I've told you some stuff that's true, and you've told me about fish and chips. Well there's no disagreement. I'y years old, I'm not. I can't go back into. the different things that have upset me J one would have done. I like fish and chips as well. I remember when it was wrapped in newspaper. I can't pretend I've ever felt it was a grave absence in the heart of British public life, but I would remind you because Iessentially use the word quite a lot. Patriotism involves wanting your country to be the best it can be not to impose economic sanctions on itself. Oh boy, july eighteenth, twenty nineteen. Ben Kentish in for Tomswg at four o'clock today but now it's time for Shehila F. This has been a global player original production