Reflecting on Hockney's artistic legacy

This is a Global Player original podcast It's four minutes after ten. you are listening to James O'Ben on LBC. There's a clip in me somewhere. Not from here from H I Got News for you, describing Elon Musk as a boond villain in waiting Um, Be beginning to feel like Cassandra. I really am. At the time I think everybody thought he was a relatively innocuous character, but maybe not. I must have got the idea from someere that justccurred to me listening to the News bullet in there and looking at his continuing amplification of what is, I think pretty close to stochastic terrorism. I look at the definition of that word a little later or those words a little later in this program. but' not I don't think there's a phone in there because if I said to you, is Nigel Farage indulging in stochastic terrorism? When he chooses his words very carefully and provokes violence, then I don't think there's a debate It's a funny one, but quite why he's not coming in for more rounded condemnation is a question for the ages. I mean, it's easy to answer in some quarters and corners, but not in others But sochastic terrorism is a pretty hefty step upon the path to the really, really bad stuff And it's now happening in plain sight on all our on all our news platforms, but I don't think anyone can debate it. I mean, the debate would be, do you like it or not? I love the stochastic terrorism I love seeing the fires in Belfast. I love seeing the but various weirdos and criminals in Southampton lobbying stuff at the police. But I don't think there's a debate. Of course it's stochastic terrorism But we're not going to talk about that O course we're not going to talk about that first up this morning. We're going to talk about defence But we're going to do it in a way that may be tricky, but I think is probably the only honest way to do it. It' certainly the only patriotic way to do it We're going to detach in the first instance, because look, make no mistake, this is absolutely disastrous for Kir Star Now to lose one that defefence minister may be considered a misfortune, but to lose two is at the very least careless It's disastrous. I mean, there is such a miasma of failure around his premiership at the moment that you just don't know whether Healy and Karnes would have walked the plank if Starmer's position wasn't already close to terminoal I don't know. They are never going to say so. You have to wait for the memoirs. But once you have that feeling in the air And listen, I don't know whether it's u something you like or something you don't like. It doesn't matter. You can't deny that the feeling is in the air. You may think it's horribly unfair, but you can't deny So the feeling is in the air then everything changes. All of the calculus changes, the political calculus changes. You make a decision, shall I resign If you're in a cabinet led by an effective and popular prime minister, the question of whether or not you should resign is very different from the question of whether or not you should resign when the Prime Minister is or is perilously close to being a lame duck a lame duck prime Mister. I don't know actually. that's not by far miles away from being the most interesting element of this entire conversation The point stance. I a point is worth making. wouldould they have got. So people are comparing it to Michael Hesseltyne's resignation as a defence. but I say people, I think it may have been a headline in the telegph so I probably shouldn't have pay too much attention to it, but Hesseltne resigned from Thatcher's cabinet when Thatcher was in her pomp Um, over Westland, wasn't it? and his battle with I think with Leon Britain I've did an A level project on this, but my memory is a little bit patchy. And so I don't know that comparisons are valid, but it is a point of principle. I suspect that when Ben Wallace stepped down as Secretary of State for Defense, it was for reasons similar to John Hillley, but he didn't feel the need to say so because of where we were in the electoral cycle and Possibly the sort of political calculus being different, as I just mentioned The thing I think it is important to do differently is actually in the first instance, having acknowledged that Starmer is in Absolutely hideous trouble and probably toast, almost certainly toast partly on what happens in Makerfield But It's not a partisan conversation this, it's a patriotic conversation. Do you remember sometimes when we come off the back of PMQs and we reflect upon how it used to be relatively normal for the two main party leaders to unite on issues of national interest and national security? We see occasional glimpses of it now, but Kemy Baden Bless her can't really ever bring herself to do anything that would be considered supportive of Kia Starma You know, have Kirst Aarma discovered a cure for the common cold Kammy Baderot would complain that he hadn't found Sargar If Kir Starmer discovered the philosopher's stone that allows us to turn base metal into gold, Kammi Badenot would complain that Lord Lukan was still missing. I mean, it is brilliant. I think she's absolutely wonderful. can't I cannot tell you, you'd have to speak to Eleanor understand just how much I love her I think she's fantastic. Every time she appears on the television or the radio, I turn everything else off, I put my phone away. I just sit there basking in a sort of warm glow of epic admiration. If I had one scintilla of Kemy Badenoch's self belief I'd be poke I'd be pope now if I had one ounce of her self regard and self belief, that confidence, that utterly baseless confidence. I reckon I could be Pope, even though I'm married with children. I reckon I could pull it off. I reckon I could certain that well, maybe' If I had one ounce of Kemy Belonot's self belief, I would have convinced myself that I could be Pope and that I'd be a very good pope and that I should be Pope and that I would be Pope if it wasn't for you pesky kids I think she's magnificent, and it just gets better and better and better. This is this extraordinary detachment from observable reality. How can you not envy that Imagine living a life untrammlled by facts and observable evidence Anyway That's not what we're talking about We're talking about defence and we're talking about the fact that the only patriotic position to adopt is the Sane one, which recognizes defence ministers Mm. agree after ten minutes in the department that we need loads more money spending on defense. They all do. whatever Well, it's only labor or conservative at the moment, but they all agree on that and then prrime ministers don't give them what they want And again, I mean, this goes back. a very long time. I don't think this is one of those problems that you can apportion entirely or blame entirely O. The consonservative inheritance. I really don't. I think Starmer obviously in Hidei's resignation letter as chosen categorically and clearly not to meet the pledge that he'd made to NATO the letter is pretty unequivocal. So yes, they inherited a mess The decision not to take money from Peter to give it to Paul in the Ministry of Defense, that has been taken. I think you'd have to be pretty daft not to think that U that Rachel Reeves has prevailed. Rachel Reeves has triumphed over John Healley I think It' obvious and pretty much Occam's razor, the only really realistic explanation of of what has gone on And And and think For me on a morning like this is We actually don't know. So if you set aside partisanship, I'm quite proud of the fact that if we were having this conversation after a conservative Secretary of State for Defense had resigned We'd be having exactly the same conversation. I think it's pathetic, and I use that word carefully It's absolutely pathetic to try to turn everything into partisan it unless you Camy Badena, who's magnificent. But for anybody else trying to turn everything into partisan politics utterly denies the existence of the national interest Do you see what I mean You should want As I did, Rishi Sounak to do all right as Prime Minister because you care about the country that he's leading. It was harder with Johnson and Truss because that would be a bit like wishing for Father Christmas to visit in June. You kind of know it was never ever going to happen. But they's still somewhere inside you. You kind of wanted David Cameron to do okay Certainly the first term in twenty ten, second term having made the promise about the referendum and then accidentally winning was less easy, of course to follow, but we seem to have forgotten. And I'm guilty of this, Please don't think I'm preaching or lecturing you. But we do seem to have forgotten about the national interest. It's all about the partisan, the party interest. It's all about P getting one over on the other lot The Lies of whom there are none really, in this country in positions of power at the moment, or the fascists of whom there are loads. Where we go as the conversation this morning, I think has to be detached from partisanship and focused entirely on the patriotic or the national interest. Because here's the thing, right I'm going to ask you a question that I don't think anyone can answer What would we spend this money on You could say drones, right or cyber warfare But we don't know what that means. Where would the drones go? So I have a genuine curiosity about who is right My instinct good Lord. I thought it was the other way aroundound. I'm doing a hearthead dichotomy, right? that we often do together. I'm saying my heart goes this way and my head goes that way. and then we'll have a chat together and try to work out whichich one is right, your heart or your head So I thought But my head be in favour of more defence spending, and my heart I don't know which way Rand it is, I have to be completely honest with you The fact that all of the defense ministers insist, regardless of what party they belong to, insists that we need more spending, makes me think that they're right. The fact that they come from both parties persuades me that they must be right because we unite so rarely now in this country But they could have all gone native You know, all they ever hear from members of the military as the Secretary of State for Defense is we need more money, Minister. We need more money, Secretary of State. We need more money. Al Khnans said to Nick Ferrari this morning The government has not done a good enough job of explaining the risks that we face Don't take my word for it Finding the money is an issue for the Prime Minister. What we really need is an honest discussion with a population as to where that money needs to come from and use really innovative ways and every means possible to get the right money for defence. But I also challenge back into the defense system to make sure the Deence invvestment planl is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war, not the last one. You say an honest conversation, Just elaborate a bit on that if you wness. Well, I'd like to be first of all in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face. fifteen billion pounds worth of cyber attacks, thirty percent increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity in the high North, a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's caus more casualties than America took in the entire Second World War The world is an exceptionally dangerous place and sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population I mean, he's absolutely right, isn't he? Because one of the things we repeatedly observe on this probe is that there is no There are currently no votes in increased defense spend If there was then the dichotomy I've described wouldn't exist. If there were votes in it, if there were loads of votes in it, then prerevious conservative prime mininisters and the current Labour Prime Minister would have done it. They would have delivered on not all of the demands, but they would have done enough to keep John Heley and Al Carnes in post. Quick Mayor Culper. I think yesterday's prediction that Al Carnes was likely to be issuing for the next Secretary of State for Defense is not going to go down as one of my wisest predictions of all time. And we probably owe Boris Johnson an apology as well for mocking him after Russia invaded Ukraine and his claim that tank warfare was effectively over. becausecause there were a hell of a lot of tanks deployed in Ukraine, but they now last for an average of one and a half days before they're destroyed by drones. So I think we are in the last gasp, we are in the final Um, chapter of tank warfare, land based tank warfare, drones seem to have changed everything. But Al Kharny's words this morning really haunt me You and I don't know whether he's right or not It feels like There's a massive threat. fifteen billion pounds of cyberwarfare. Can you put your hand up now and tell me what do you spend money on. to stop that from happening. Shall I wait inccrease in Russian activity in the North, Northern Hmisphere. O Why should I be worried about that in Kiddermminster? I mean, I kind of know I should But I couldn't explain to my mum why she should, Mum's currently in kidamen. What else was on there this? Play again, Keith. I should have taken some notes and then we'll get stuck into the questions. Finding the money is an issue for the Prime Minister. What we really need is an honest discussion with the population as to where that money needs to come from and use really innovative ways and every means possible to get the right money for defence. But I also challenge back into the defence system to make sure the Defence invvestment planl is learning all those lessons from Ukraine and fighting the next war, not the last one. You say an honest conversation, J just elaborate a bit on that ifitness Well I'd like to be first of all in national conversation with the population to just demonstrate the threats that we face. fifteen billion pounds worth of cyber attacks, a thirty percent increase in Russian surface and subsurface activity in the high North, a war in the Middle East, a war in Ukraine that's costed more casualties than America took in the entire Second World War The world is an exceptionally dangerous place and sometimes I don't think we as government make that message clear and concise to the population. Can you make it clear and concise I mean, I don't know whether or not this is a bit irresponsible. But how would you frighten the population? into accepting that we need ahead of a lot more military spending. because if you do that, then you make Kirst Starmmer's job easier We are nowhere near sufficiently spooked Ohie, I'm not And I've still got this is what I mean by heart versus Head. Heart says we probably should be. He says I'm not. orr headad says we probably should be Heart says I'm not fifteen billion pounds of cyber attacks on us. Does anyone know what that did? what that meant? Can anyone remember what that looked like? zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. thirty percent increase in Russian activity in the North Why should people in Kiddeminstter care about that Obviously they should, right? But the failure to articulate why is what Al Khnes is talking about.zer three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. War in the Middle East. Why would spending more money on British defense make the blindest bit of difference to a war we're not involved in Oh three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three and war in Ukraine, which we do support. And obviously if we had more stuff to give to Volodymyr Zelensky we would be able to give it to him. But again, it doesn't necessarily make the case for epic increases, massive increases in military spending So I don't think this is an irresponsible question. What are we supposed to be scared of What should we be scared of? Because if the population were scared? Is scared a good word to use Would you prefer a different word I'm going to go with scared until you come up with a better one What are we supposed to be scared of? And details specific. You can't just say, Mike a murderous fascist criminal is invading an advanced European democracy. We stop it or we live it. I think you're right, but that's not going to scare me or my mum U Or Keith. Keith are you scared Keith's not scared. We should all be scared is this is the topic, right? We should all be scared And we know if Putin invaded Guernzy We'd be scared. If Putin invaded Guernsey and K Starmer announced that he was taking money out of the NHS and putting it into defense, we'd all go, okay, yeah, fine. I'll have to wait a bit longer for my operation. If Putin invaded Gernsy and Kir Starmer announced that I mean, obviously the right wing would be up in arms unless we took money away from disabled people and the truly poor. But whatever he announced You know, it's like the church bells, isn't it and the metal fences. We're at war. So everyone's going to have to make sacrifices. Everyone's going to have to pull together. but we don't think we're at war What would it take to persuade the British public that they are H ruled. imperiled with an M or in peril with an end. What would it actually take? I genuinely don't know. zero three, four, five six zero six zero nine seven three I don't know whether we need to be scared or educated or both. or whether if we were educated properly, we'd be scared What are we What should we be scared of? What do we need to be educated about ero three four five, six zero sixzero nine seven three and genuine question. and this is possibly one of those questions that might tempt people onto the program who never thought they'd ring a radio station in their lives would we actually spend this money on Hit those numbers now, you will get through It's twenty four minutes after ten. So here's a little thing, just a little thing. U Stephven Yaxi Lennin this week is is in Moscow trying to ferment violence back in the UK is hanging out with Elon Musk's dad, a man Stepfot, Eon Musk's dad, a man best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice, hashtag protect our women, hashtag save our girls And he has shared a post showing a Russian nationalist group performing a torch lit ceremony for Henry Novak. whose own family pleaded with the public to turn his murder into any sort of racialized or political issue And that, you know, I don't know who's paying his bills That is evidence of a foreign state seeking to interfere in our democracy. You look at the scenes in Belfast overnight You've got everyone from neo Nazis to paramilitaries, to foreign states and white supremacists see to seeking to cause mayhem chaos and possibly death on our streets But the government hasn't left Twitter So Why am I not more concerned about misinformation and foreign states and neo Nazis using social media to pollute and corrupt British democracy answer because the government is still on the worst platform of all. I think that I mean, I know we had that conversation earlier in the week, but I think it's even more pertinent today than it was then So why am I not scared? Our cer is, well, the government has done a rubbish job of telling you that you should be deeply concerned if you don't like scared But what exactly about fifteen billion pounds worth of cyber attack thirty percent Increase in Russian activity. theseese aren't touching the sides of your concern, are they There's a war in the Middle East. Yeahah, I know. to Netanyahu Trump'sa thirty ninth time yesterday, Trump announced he wouldn't invading Iran after all. I'm not even joking. As a war in Ukraine As quite a few people have pointed out, if Vladimir Putin were to invade Garzi, then nooubt Nigel Farage would be on Italy in ten minutes, telling us that we're going to have to just give it up likeike he did to the Ukrainians when Putin invaded Crimea I I don't know what it is that would hardarden our resolves and make the case for increased defense spending irresistible. becausecause the whole point about the current crisis that KS Stm is in is that it's not irresistible It's not irresistible. What should we be concerned about and what would we spend the money on? Dave's in Edinburgh, Dave, what have you got? Hey JM Sedon. I'm all good, mate, what's on your mind So yeah, I work in the financial sector, I work on the IT side of things, but I'm also slightly involved in the security and business on the national level Um So cybersecurity kindind of, ye. kindind of yeah. I don't really want to go into too many details. O. So yeah, the situation is that from a cyber perspective, we can be quite vulnerable. know Israel and the CIA a few years ago unleashed the Stuxnet virus that was deliberately targeted the Iranian nuclear program and was attempting to degrade that by And so spin up elements of the actual physical production a bit too fast and cause a meltdown you know, there's other things can be targeted at infrastructure remotely And then you get things like fraud that's very much attacking individuals and attempting to defraud them and take their finances There's been attacks on the NHS and education systems as well. And some of these cause greater or lesser disruption Some of them cause personal loss, some of them can cause infrastructure damage, but There are very real risks and just because peopleeople aren't aware of them because we don't tend to talk about them doesn't mean that they're not a real How do we the real consequences? How do we make people feel them Ching Because that's the problem here, isn't it? is that I think you spend ten minutes in the Ministry of Defense and you feel them That's why people like John Healley and Al Carnes and Ben Wallace and others all end up entirely Native And the prime ministers who don't spend time in the Ministry of Defence, whether it's Theresa May or Rishi Sunek or David Cameron or Kis Daharmmer will leave out the crazy two They don't feel it. They'll be aware of it. they'll have people explaining in a lot more detail than you can to them exactly what is going on And yet they don't feel the need to spend more money on defence, which means either they don't understand. that spending more money on defense reduces the chances of us being targeted by a highly sophisticated cyber weapon like Stuxnet or they don't believe that spending a lot more money is necessary to protect us from a highly sophisticated cyber weapon like Stutsnet. So you know, I'm asking you to persuade my listeners to be more concerned in a way It's Kirstamma that needs to be Yeah, I mean, I guess Kir Starmer has always got to jugle budget, right? And the minute he pulls finances from one thing to another, then he's going to come under immense pressure. And of course he is good if if not if Gernsey was invaded. we actually Using the vocabulary of analogue war to describe digital war. So I'm talking about Gery being invaded and you're talking about a highly sophisticated cyber weapon that was designed to sabotage Iran's nuclear program And that's the problem, isn't it? Because it operates in the darkness and the shadows and you know, that people are reluctant to talk about it publicly. We We only talk about it when the effects are felt publicly And what is the most public effect so far of either the fifteen billion pounds of cyber attacks, the thirty percent increase in Russian activity, the war in the Middle East or the war in Ukraine. because I mean, apart from cost of living and fuel price increases, which most people won't be looking at when they pull into the forecourt this morning. They won't be going, o flipp in eck, damn that Benjamin Netanyahu and Donald Trump, Petl's gone up again. It's like that connection hasn't been made. It might be partly the fault of the media, it might be the fault of the government, but it's more likely just human nature We see what's right in front of us. We don't see what's thousands and thousands of miles away. So what's the worst thing that's happened so far I don't actually know anything. And there's a problem. That's a problem Eactly. But the problem is, of course, that these things will be happening and they just have an nutritious effect where you know, it's gradual increases on tax and People have to put more effort into ensuring that they're systeming going to get the budget. You're not going to get a budget increase out of me with this kind of rhetoric, th. And that's the problem. I you can look at simple systems like the systems that are used to pump water around the country. But if it happened, if we went for a week without water and everybody knew it was the Russians, then perhaps the case for more spending would be a lot easier to make. But as you've kind of unintentionally demonstrated, it's not easy to make now. whereere there not have there not been attacks on the NHF? Maybe they don't tell us the stuff that they need to tell us because they're worried about frightening us too much. But if we did know what had already happened in the context of Russian interference, I mean you know Boris Johnson's decision not to properly investigate Russian interference in the Brexit referendum is probably one big bloody milestone on the path to this mess. Of course, you're not allowed to say that. eighty five percent of the UK media because he's still canonized. So what is it Best, who can do the best job of frightening us into a position where we'd all go. What would you say to Kir Starmer, let alone my other listeners to make them go, yeah, we need to spend more money on this and I don't care where it comes from. becausecause that's to me the political point here We need to spend more money on this and I don't care where it comes from. seemeems to me to be where John Healley is, Alcarnes is and Ben Wallace was. We need to spend more money on this and I don't care where it comes from. It's so important that we have to do it. to which the public and the Prime Minister respond by going no, D't be ds No, we don't And that is why it is so stupid to have this conversation in a partisan fashion We need to spend more money on this and it doesn't matter where it comes from. Say all of the people close to the issue in defence but nowhere else in government, not not in health, not not in the treasury, not in Downing Street. So how do we know they're right How do we know they're right, even? ten thirty three is a time Dominic Kellyis has your headlin It is ten thirty six and the two questions that I don't know we're going to be able to answer properly today is what would it take to persuade the British public and indeed the British Prime Minister that we need to spend a lot more money on defense wherever the hell it comes from, which is what every minister who ends up in the Ministry of Defense ends up believing And question number two, what would we actually spend that money on Dave's in pool, Dave, what would you like to say Good morning, James Bright. I've been a civil servant for thirty two years in the Ministry of Defence. I retired two years ago and I've now returned because I can see the growing threat to the UK. by other people, they say, I've got to be careful with me words Do you know why Well, I'm a civil servant. Oh right. Have you signed the Screts Act Yeah, exactly. Okay Well is that part of the problem? Sorry to interrupt you before you've even started talking. but is there stuff Kist Armmer could tell us that would spook us more, but he can't tell us I couldn't say, James, I'll be characed with. That's my pay gr It's an interesting question though. Yeah. Yeah very very I have seen the fall of the wall I've seen the resurgence of m of Russia, you know, the aggression like Putin going into Ukraine Iran, I've worked through several wars, you know, and I just think the world is a bloody dangerous place You know, and I don't think we realize that the general public and even I mean the prrime Minister Yeah, well he should listen to what he's being told by Biden's defence minister and especially Al Carnes, who is an amazing guy. You like him, he seems ye like himarn brilliant I think he's an amazing guy. bit of a dark horse for the lead for any coming leadership battle, whichich may again no, I'm not even joking to talk about political calculus, it may have slightly influenced his decision to resign yesterday. We may never know, but what do we do? I mean, how do you do it? How do you put it into words? How do you persuade me? never mind Kir Stara that I should be saying, I'm really sorry That money over there is really necessary, but we're taking it away and we're giving it to defense Look at Ukraine I am' not being I'm not being for. I am looking at Ukraine. I don't think I can't see it being replicated in Worcestershire anytime soon. No. And one thing you did say about if Guny gets invaded, right? Y Well, I'm a going to historian of the occupation. Fpp. And yeah. I've done podcasts and all sorts, right? Yeah. So when you said that I saw Odon James a minute, you're touching Nervia because They were invaded. No, I know that. That's why I chose it. Yes Yeah.'s why occupation and Gersey and Albony. Yes I know. That's why I chose it. If Gergy was invaded, nobody would sit here saying, Oh, I don't know what we're supposed to be worried about wouldould they. But at the moment, most people are sitting here saying I don't know what we're supposed to be worried about. And you can say Ukraine, Dave. You can say the Middle East, you can say thirty percent increase in Russian activity in the North. you can say fifteen billion ound cost of cyber attacks and no one listening to this program, unless I haven't spoken to them yet. and if that's you that I'm talking about, zero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is a number. Nobody's feeling it I don't know what to say, James. I am for once, lots of words, but I feel, I feel as a civable show in the MOD. Yeah. I Pil. It's obvious to you. We should be worried. About what? and you can't just say Ukraine, about what specifically. Tell Doris Inngar what might happen tomorrow. It's like the man on the clap omnibus is a figurous speech that I use to describe you know every man or every woman. Tell Doris in Ongar what she should be scared? I don't know. It's just this fe This is the problem isn't it? Everybody who's convinced that we've got a massive flipping problem on the horizon can't tell us what it is Sorry, mate. Howre you going back to work at the Ministry of Defense now? I'm just about to go back to work. Well have a great dayave. There it is. there it is. There Iss everyone there called Dave Jam's absolute pleasure to talk to you. Savior a star. and good luck with the work that you do. and thank you for being such a good sport, but also for highlighting precisely the problem that we have. So if you do this in a partisan way, it's nice and easy, lazy, lazy T Trebleles all around. Let's all go home. Kirstarm' is awful. Rachel Reeves has bullied him. John Healey has resigned.'s right they They're wrong Yada, yada, yada. Don'tention the last fourteen years of Tory orll just use it as a stick with which to beat Kirst Starmer. That's fine. laazzy, pointless, unpatriotic, unhelpful, but you know, gets you through your shift. If you want to do it from the point of view of the national interest, then you talk about the national conversation and the national concern What up so Novichk for me I can muster it up. I mean, I understand the threat that Russia poses. I was very early at that table thanks to my friend Sir Bill Browder. And the education he has given me, which has come truer and truer and truer with every passing year No matter that the politician in this country currently leading in the polls has been a Kremlin apologist for his entire life One of his proteg is currently languishing in jail for taking bribes from a Kremlin stooge, I understand all of those threats and dangers. Of course I do. and the hideous hideous Lord Hororish calls for that the West to stop poking the Russian bear could have been written straight from the Kremlin. but I can't make the leap from that or even You know, the attacks on the on the ship hes in Shrewsbury and the murder of Dwn Sturgis by Putin's goons on British soil. But that was an attempt to kill Russian dissidents who'd fled the country. It doesn't make me fear for my own safety or my family's safety. What would? That's the missing piece of the jigsaw And I don't think Al Carnes or John Heeley have got it either to be fair to them. I think these are principled resignations But they can't tell you they can't articulate it either. Al Kans can say as he did to Nick Ferrari this morning The government has not done a very good job of making the threat clear, but he didn't make the threat clear Clar out They can't do it C Neil in Rush Cliff Neil, what would you like to say Hi James.. I think one of the issues that's maybe worth reflecting is the point that you've made about, whyy is it that people intelligent people some of the higher level policy go in the MOD, if you like turn native to use your expression? I think it's a good expression though, right? I mean it works. Yes. Well one of the reasons I suspect is that when they get in the MOD for all its failures, it's going to have a pretty sophisticated approach to risk management. So in other words, the detail of what the risk precautions, if you like andls we've got in place and what the gap is between that and what we need. And I think that if they were to Salsbury not Srewsbury. just let me correct Salisbury not Srewsby, my bad. I've got mental block on Salisbury andhrewsby So forgive. carry on, Neil. sorry if for interrupting. If they were to maybe share some of that information Yeah this is more widely It would not so much. I don't think from the point of view I think people would have become scared when they become better educated and have better insights into what the issues actually are. So for instance One of the big things that's been talked about over the last five years is the whole issue I'm going to try and get your phone l. I'm losing one word in five and it's okay if that word is and, but it's not great if that word is, I don't know, apocalypse. So going to try and get back to you. Dom's on the wheel, Don, what would you like to say? M morning, James, hope youre well. I am worried. I'm worried because I can read and write. I've got nothing to do with the military, but I'm a taxpayer that keeps you breath the news or tries to. We've had REF planes being buzzed in international airspace repeatedly and dangerously, laser being shown, a plane from ships. when did that happen when did that happen? And how do we know it was m line foreign state activity To weeks ago, yeah, two weeks ago interational airpace, I think was near the Black Sea two Russian jets buzz within a No I knew that I knew that. I was asking about the laser beams. not it's not a gotcha. I just I lissed it. Last year, an REF C' aircraft had a laser shot at it from a Russian what you call ghost tank, and not ghost tankers Okay No just a Russian vessel, that will do. and I can't double check in real time, so I'll take your word for it. But that how do we know that's not just I mean Like a miscreant, as it were, as opposed to a national policy It's part of a pattern and we've got ruted submarines being monitored surveying our undersea cables. Yeah. We've got constant cyber attacks We've got bot farms, which are thing that wouldn't look looking up properly. bot farms on X and other social media platforms. They're poised to install a Kremlin apologist in Downing Street at the moment. We can say that with some confidence, but a significant portion of the country is going to be entirely unmoved by that. We've got to start fighting bot farms because otherwise Nigel Farrage will be prime Minister It's not going to play very well with people who have somehow been persuaded that they want Nigel Farris to be prrime Minister, you see That brings back to another debate regarding social mediaated publishers, which we've spoken about in the past. Yes. But I'm also scared as a taxpayer because I've got a list in front of me, a very short list. of billions and billions of pounds wasted in defence procurement or lack thereof. Yeah And this is Starmer's defense, which is we don't need to give you more money because you can save some of the money that we've currently got, which oddly, earlier today, Dom madeade me think of HS too actually. A just. look at look at the Queen Eizabeth C carrier. That was sixty percent over five years that the Ajax carryat is now eight years late and it's not fit for purpose. If you're on the MOD's own website or the public accccounts commommittee billions upon billions of pounds. So before we start throwing more money in, let's fix the leaky bucket fair, which I think is Kirst Ama's position. Yeah. well, I back up one hundred percent on that, but I don't know if our civil service, who do leave Dave out of it You leaveave out you leave my mate Dave out of this, all right. Dave you're in charge. Dave's doing his best. ten forty six is the time. Oh dear. some breaking news for you. The British artist David Hockney has died at the age of eighty eight. his publicist has just revealed incredible influence and reach For a man born in I can't remember where he was born somewhere in Yorkshire, but we reflect a little bit upon the passing of one of the most celebrated British artists of the last century, actually, David Hockney, who has died it's just been announced at the age of eighty eight. It's ten forty seven It is ten minutes to eleven and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I say this cautiously and kindly Two or three people who fell that they had both the knowledge and the confidence to answer the question of why we need to spend more money on defence discovered once in the spotlight of the of the S But they they couldn't not like Brexit, they weren't idiots and they certainly haven't been completely misled by grifters and liars and racists But they are convinced of their position and yet they can't articulate it. And that was what I was trying to pinpoint at the top of this hour. That to me is the very distillation of defence in this country at the moment Some people feel an urgent threat. and are adamant that we need to spend a lot more money. And some people don't. John Heley is in the former category. as was Ben Wallace, when he was Secretary of State for Defense Kiss Starmer and Rachel Reeves are currently in the second category. And neither of us know who's right and who's wrong If you were to base your opinion or your answer to that question entirely upon the colour of the scarf that you have tied around your neck politically then your opinion is pointless and worthless becausecause it couldn't be true under Ben Wallace and not true under John Heley and it couldn't true under John Healey and not true under Ben Wallace So this is not a partisan moment except in the context of Kara's perilous position. But in terms of the national defence and the national interest, this is not a partisan moment It's a divide in our country between people who adamant that we need to spend a lot more money on defence, but can't currently articulate why. and people who believe that we don't need to with Dom on the Whirrel representing the third constituency, which is The threat is real, the peril is urgent but Before we start moving money away from other areas where it's desperately needed, we need to make sure that the money that we're spending already in the Ministry of Defense is spent much more wisely and much more efficiently, which is why I mentioned HS two. Do you remember the call are telling us they were in procurement on HS two and they lost a shipment likeike a lorry load of something. just got delivered to the wrong place or never turned up So they just ordered another one Do you see what I mean? I imagine the Ministry of Defense is a bit like that I'm simplifying hugely But it is not going to be run like Amazon, is it? where they've now started turning off drivers' air conditioning units in the United States of America to save a few dollars for Jeff Bezos. because let's all be honest. onene thing we can all agree on is that Jeff Bezos is is in need of more money, just like Elon Musk is So you see what I mean? These sclerotic public behemoths squander money on an industrial scale, and the Prime Minister, I think is defending his current position by saying, well we need to make sure it's a lot more efficient and we spend the money that we're already giving them a lot more wisely And then the people in the department are saying, we need more money and we need it yesterday and the public's left Like an observer at Queen's Turning to the left and turning to the right and turning to the left and turning to tennis, Wimbledon Not knowing And we still don't. Matthew's in Bradmore, A are you going to change it, Matthew? What would you like to say Okay, I'm going to try and right, go easy with me. Of course this is going to be difficult. Wver Hampton. We're practically neighbours. Cry on. Yeah, I even said it to your person beforehand, I bet you know is where Brad Moore is because he's from kiddy. Exact. I know kiddy well. Yeah, Okay. So all right, let's let's try history, okay? nineteen is R Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia. He's given a bit of it to, to appeasement. He takes the rest of it. And at that time, everyone probably thought, yeah, well, it's still it's Eastern Europe, it was a mile away or something else like that.. A few years later, bombs were dropping on London No. If if we had intervened in Czechoslovakia at that point and not just us, but say France, which was a superpower at the time and other countries, if we could have stopped the Second World War Cueosovakia if we'd have got involved then Putin invades Ukraine and this is our chance a bigger war from spreading across the rest of Europe Right Because as long as he's bogged down in Ukraine, he can't spread anywhere else. Yeah So that's going to mean that we're going to have to help Ukraine because if he takes Ukraine, he will get Ukraine's resources, Ukrains men, Ukraines equipment, Ukraaims everything, and then he'll just move on to another It'so emmpires build. right So this is why we need to spend more money to give to Ukraine And because it will stop the war there. But it's not just that. We've also got Middle East, we've also got China and Taiwan.'ve got and we can't rely on America either, right? All the sort of stuff that we with America. Yeah, a few months ago, America was even looking at whether they could take Greenland. I mean yeah, I mean we've still got a lot of defense contracts with America and we can't trust themmerica it If you moveved into Latvia tomorow American might just go like, you're not, I'm not my problem. you're your problem. We can't rely on them. I mean Yeah, and that's what America first was in the nineteen thirties and it's what America first would be in the twenty twenties. And JD Vance more than Donald Trump would be the face of that betetrayal. And I think this And at least Well done to the Defence Minister walking out. In fact, I was even trying to get on your show and that's what stopped it. So the question of answer I'm going to be on that. and instead of you rung in on this instead. So So the Ukraine thing is contingent upon believing that if Putin had prevailed there and let's not forget he thought he'd have it nailed in a weekend. If Putin had prevailed there, he would have moved on. He wouldn't have stopped and been satisfied. And yeah in the area and you've got other places could have then moved That's the absolute crux of it because either you get that or you don't A you ex military? Are you ex military? Are you military yourself I serve seven years. That would do I did two years in the RAF cadets, all right, so we're practically comrades. Either you get it or you don't. You either look at Putin and think he is like Hitler. Or you look at or you look at people who look at Putin and thinkking he is like Hitler and think they're mad That's the problem the politicians have got Putin doesn't care. he's already lost about a million people and he' still fighting. He does not care about his people, or he still thinks that he can get his glory that he can expand his empire and everything. So why are we failing on that? I mean, but again it's like I'm sorry to bring Guersy back into it. We only realized Hitler's intent when he invaded Poland. We didn't realize it when he invaded an annex Sudayitenland, as you've pointed out, so it would involve Putin next over from Ukraine is Poland Again oddly So that would be the point at which everybody in the UK said, whoa Give all the money to defence. and by then of course it might be too late. that Do you think that's what's going on in the minds of people like John Healey Latvia is more likely to be honest because Latvia are okay, but you take my point. You the smaller countries that they haven't got a big defense budget. Poland at least has spent masses on its armed forces U But how you do? How does the media do what it needs to do for the British public if your analysis is correct? Wh they are absolutely allergic to any investigation of Russian interference in our democracy because they liked the results that the Russians helped to deliver. And their darling, they're all queuing up to tickle his tummy at the moment, is a massive lifelong Kremlin apologist who's made no secret of the fact that the politician he admires most in the world is spoiler, Vladimir Bloody Putin Well, to be fair to himan I really hate what I'm going to say next, but he has actually said that more money should be spent on defense. Doesn't matter No not because Putin is a threat. Putin is his hero It's easy to say more money should be spent on defence when you're in opposition. Making the case to the public as to why is the thing that nobody is currently managing to do. And he's certainly not going to be doing it by explaining that Vladimir Putin, who is his hero Is actually a major threat to the UK? Yeah. I mean, one good thing that has happened from the Defence Minister resigning is on the front page of every newspaper today. So was Ben Wallace when he resigned. Yeah. And also I think a few people woke up when we could only send one ship to the Mediterranean. I think people started to realize that our Navy wasn't Do you think they did or do you think they just saw it as an opportunity to attack labour without reflecting upon the fourteen year old reasons why our defences were in such a parlous state? I mean, it is Osborourne's razor again, isn't it? All roads lead to George Osborne and his fillitting of all public spending. I don't know. I mean, I you know, thank God we didn't join Donald Trp luducicrou mission in Iran. but there were plenty of people in our chatter ining classes who wanted to. Dick Little John at the Daily Mails never been more ashamed in his life to be British than when we didn't join The campaign that has just seen Donald Trump step back from invading Iran for the thirty ninth time People don't feel it, Matthew, they don't feel sorry, I'm going off on one. they don't feel what you feel I thought Starmer was getting it because he kept going on about coalition of the Willing threeree and a half percent. Yeah, yeah, And he actually looked like, you know, and he was, you know he kept telling the rest of Europe, we need to spend more money, we need to do this, we need to do that. And then I kept thinking, ye, it's got to start with you because there's a G seven conference coming up. There's a NATO conference coming up And then everyone is going to look at him and then think I couldn't even believe how much the money was. When I heard it last night, it said zero zero eight percent. I thought oh, that must be wrong. It must be er point eight percent. It wasn'tntil had another look this morning I went, Oh no, that's nothing. That is really nothing It's nothing. it's huge, but it's nothing in percentage terms. It's still au fix the military at the moment, right? and It will just get you know a couple of big exercises of a few other things in Here's a question then, what would we spend your money on t the moment like if you're going to build ships tanks and things like that planes, it's going to take It's going to take years before you'll see the benefits If you start building things like we need we need an air defense system. right? We've got nothing against drones, we've got nothing against ballistic missiles, we've got no proper air defense system for the UK But all of this off the shelf. now we can b your tank weapons. they' pretty much off the shelf. We can start doing that. But you have to feel threatened to do that. To make the political case to do that, you have to have people in Bradmooore and Kiddemminster who think that there are Russians on the horizon. I mean, just do you just do Pitically, you just do. Okay. okay, at the end of the day, is there a threat? If Stara is honestly saying yes, there is a threat. It doesn't really matter what the people think. I'm sorry to say this, but you're the person who's responsible. if people are going to say, yeah, but is so and so she's going to not get her benefits or whatever you're the person who's in charge, the book stops with you. you're the one who's got to make that decision and say, look is it? That's not how it works because they' saying you've got the health seecretary, you've got the Worome Pension seecretary. you've got the trade secretary. They're saying we need money, we need money, we need money. And he's like Daddy saying, we can't actually afford to spend more money on defense children I'm sure this happened in the nineteen thirties when when people were saying like do we really need all these spitfires? And then your answer is yes, right. So you're going to have You're brilliant. I mean and that's it? No, you just are because if you're right, we're doomed. Yeahes. I mean, I kind of military is like bllack in so many years with the red arrows are no down to seven aircraft.? Well, that doesn't matter so much. That's just for air shows. They're not going to protect us from Russians No, but it's a. Don't attack me. God, I've just upset the red arrows lot. No, I love the red arrows. The red arrows are amazing. They're incredible. I saw them I think whereere would I have seen them, Matthew, You name a famous Air show There's one up the road on the M fifty four sometimes. Yeah that one there I went there once it was Shobden's near you, isn't it? I once went up in an aircraft at Shobden Airfield. that's just around the corner from you, isn't it? Yeah. Mmy, not REF but yeah I'm aware of few places possib The Rd arrows have, as far as I'm aware, never flown out of Shobden. It's troop in the colour tomorrow. I love all that business, but I don't think it's going to protect us from Vladimir There it is. L, either you think Putin is a modern day Hitler, in which case you spend every penny you've got on defense, or you don't, in which case you don't John Heley needs to tell us. doesnes't he? really? Al Carnes it's all very well saying the government haven't made. You are the bloody government. I've got toop using that word My mypologies, especially if you' got children in the car. You are the flipping government You are the flipping government, outc. How can you say we haven't done the government hasn't done a very good job of it. You're a minister of defence. Ah man, I kind of want to stay with this. I think it's really important and really interesting. There's room on the switchboard, which by no means full up It's up to you really, whether you've got anything to add to the conversation. How I mean, should we be? So all of the people that know what they're talking about are adamant that we should be On high alert Not all of them have done a very good job of explaining why, Matthew probably the best exception on that. and what should we spend the money on? How do you persuade the British public to be more alerted, to be more alarmed, to be more quote scared end quote? It's eleven o three. I have a confession to make. I missed the appointment of the new Secretary of State for Defense because I was playingzo zero seven first lightight for hours L night before and after the football, which will give you an indication of just how many shifts I put in on what is an absolutely brilliant game if you care about such things. But do you know what Dan Jarvis's nickname was when he was in the parachute regiment And youve got to remember that If you're in the parachute regiment, you're already nails, right? You're as hard as nails already if you're in the parachute regiment. an Jarvis's nickname when he was in the parachute regiment was Simod. Does anyone want tona have a go at guessing what CMod stands for? Do you know what CMod stands for This is your new Secretary of State for Defense, ladies and gentlemen Steely eyed, Messenger of D deeath I And of course that is a reflection on his ability to stay calm when or to keep your head when all around were losing theirs. A couple of other little anecdotes that the former Dputy Labour leadeer Tom Watson has shared He's known Dan Jarvis for fifteen years. He would say while making conversation about hobbies, he would say, I like the odd run And it would later emerge that he was in the habit of running seven marathons in seven days in a desert At none of this particularly equips you to be politician necessarily But I don't know, it sort of fills you with a vague sense of comfort, doesn't it? and confidence that the Secretary of State for Defense Obviously, made of much, much tougher stuff than the rest of his life. He was my tip for labour leader a few years ago, but he had personal tragedy to deal with and committed himself to doing the job as an MP while raising young children. But he's a profoundly and permanently impmpressive man. Sandhurst at twenty three, comprehensive school education in Nottingham fifteen years in the Parachute reggiment Tours in Northern Ireland, Kosovo, Sierra Leone, Iraq, Afghanistan, picked up a an MBE along the way He was at Pristina Airport. When General Sir Mike Jackson told Wesley Carark that he was not going to start World War three for you, a moment of epic courage that should really stir even the least patriotic heart, Jarvis later calling it a very surreal moment in my life. But he impressed Mike Jackson in that moment and was made his personal staff officer By the time they got to Helmond, he was commanding a company against the Taliban in night fighting of the kind that most of his paramilitary colleagues have only read about That's your new Secretary of State for Defense. and because it's very thin on the ground at the moment and in extremely short supply, I'm taking that as good news His job now, presumably, is to persuade Kostamma to go back to the drawing board and have another think about the money that is or is not available for the Defence budget And the problem is, as my callers have managed to articulate rather well so far this morning You can feel the threat Listen to what Tom Tugenhat just said. Did you hear that in the bulletin So Tom Tukenhat saying it's obvious The enemy is at the gate. and then he talked about Iran, Latvia, and Estonia That's not the gate, Tom That's the problem You someone who has spent time in the Ministry of Defense, like John Healey, like Al Carnes, like Ben Wallace, you might think it's obvious because you I don't know, have you seen stuff that we haven't seen Latvia, Estonia, Ukraine, Iran, they're not the gate You're trying to persuade someone in Kidermminster that we should cut their pension and spend it on defence, Ax the triple lock or take away from their grandchildren's school. and spend it on defence, then they need to be at the gate. We're getting there, aren't we? We're getting there, right? Togher we're getting there. We're getting closer to it. seeee what happens when you don't make it a really lazy partisan point scoring exercise? Clarity, understanding comprehension They're not at the gate. Tom Tugenhat thinks they're at the gate He's ex military He's ex Ministry of defeence. He thinks they're at the gate because their brains work differently from ours and their information is better. We don't think they're at the gate The only thing that's at the gate is the cyber threat. and we don't really feel that. Which one would you pick? Marks and Spencers? That was supposed to be kids trying to get a ransom out of them. Cambridge research systems probably underreported in the great scheme of things. The British Libbrary, do we know who that was? They can bring massive institutions to their knees in moments And our side do it too or at least our allies do it too The United States, the CII CIA and Israel were supposed to have rendered Iran's nuclear capabilities is obsolete using a virus back in twenty ten. Has any nuclear capability ever been obliterated and rendered obsolete more often than Iran's? Extraordinary But it's not at the gate, is it Is the gate the problem? Is that the crux of this entire issue is that we don't know where the gate is. The gate in the nineteen thirties when Hitler was roundly sorry, when Churchill was roundly derided for describing Hitler as a warmonger for accurately predicting exactly what Hitler was going to do. Winston Churchill was a laughing stop in London He was considered to be crackers And he was right Because we know what the gate looked, Sudetenland wasn't the gate. Poland was the gate You can go into Poland, you can go into Finland it can go into Lithuania, can go into Estonia So here's the thing, a gate is a mental concept, not a physical one, not a national one. So on the one hand, right Tom Tugan had saying, It's obvious that we need to spend more money on defense. The enemy is at the gate And you've got me saying, that's not the gate. You've got Mario texting me in the same moment who was born and educated in Poland Soay, whenever you mention War James, I start listening a bit more closely The UK doesn't need to do anything involving Europe, especially now after Brexit. But again, I'm Polish, so I'm going to say I'm going to tell you what it's like to be in a country or from a country that has land borders with Russia And then ask your politicians if they want to support Poland, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Finland and Sweden, or do they want to sit back again and watch Central Europe burn That's the gate It's Mario's gate, It's not your gate. How do you make the British people feel? The urgency and necessity that labor and conservative politicians who've spent time in both the military and the Ministry of Defense feel so keenly that they think it'sself Evidence I don't know the answer to that, but I think they're all failing They're all failing and they're possibly even flailing Al Khnes did it This morning When he said the government is not articulating the urgency of the situation Tom Tougan had did it in that news bulletin there when he said The enemy are at the gate, it's obvious because they're not even persuading their own colleagues in cabinets, Conservative and Labour cabinets. We need to spend more money on defefense Prime Minister do we Well, we can't afford it Where am I going to get the money from Where am I going to get the money from? If they were at the gate, it wouldn't matter. We'd be melting down church bells and taking fence railings off houses If the enemy was at the gate, it wouldn't matter, would it where the money was coming from. We get it from anywhere. Let's work on the provviso that they are. gate that Putin does have ambitions. And rememember, Putin thought he would take Ukraine in a weekend Barack Obama had rolled over when he went into Crimea, not responded in a way that anybody genuinely concerned about wider imperial ambitions would have responded So So a few years later, he had to pop up the entirety of Ukraine You'd have to be mad, wouldn't you to think you would' have stopped there, just as you would have had to be mad to think that Hitler would have stopped in Sudayenland, but guess what He didn't And loads and loads of people at the time thought that he would. This is a great point, an earlier call I made. Everybody thought that he would. stop. Oh he's happy now. that's what Chamberlain thought when he came back with his famous piece of paper It'd stop there. It's only Do you know why Probably this is going to sound weird One of the major reasons why people in the United Kingdom don't realize the threat that they face is because Volodymy M Zelensky has done such an incredible job of fighting it. If Ukraine had fallen And Putin had set his sights on whatever would be next Mario suggests Lithuania Estonia Latvia Finland, Sweden, Poland Pick a favorite Probably Estonia and Latvia geographically and militarily. If Putin had taken Ukraine and moved on to the next one Probably it would be a lot, o, wow tell me I'm wrong If Ukraine had fallen in a weekend and Putin had set his sights on the next target, then it would be a lot easier to persuade the British public that we'd need to spend a lot more money on to fact there would be votes in it. Because Stalmer would be doing it now if he thought it was a vote winner You find the money, if the public feel the threat. You feel the heat of the threat on your. onn your neck, on your back, you spend the money you find the money and you spend the money. You don't really have conversations about whether it's being spent wisely or efficiently or effectively You find the money and you spend the money Zelensky and Ukraine have resisted so successfully and so incredibly. There's another statistic from Kans this morning that made me. lose my helpin. was was that they they've already there's already been more Stacks for Russia than the United States suffered in the entire Second World War. I think I heard that correctly So if Zelensky and Ukraine hadn't done such an incredible job of resisting Vladimir Putin He'd moved on to somewhere else and we probably would have thought that he was near the gate or at the gate and therefore the necessity of spending more money on Defense would be absolutely irresistible. So is that it? Is that the answer? You just wait for things to get worse and then everyone will finally agree that we should be spending the money say better late than never or it might be too late to make a difference. We'll never know. and hopefully we'll never find out. But that seems to me to be where we are now. So how do you do it in the absence of Enemies at the gate Oh. presence of enemies at the cyber gate, the invisible gate How do you persuade Prime Ministers Pundits and public that we need to spend this money on defense. How do you do it? How do you persuade them of the threat? eleven eighteen, You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC and it's your turn to contribute next by dining zero three four five six zo six zero nine, seven, three. And what would I mean, what would we spend the money on? G've got some answers to that questions. A shed looad kind of nearly swore them a shedload of Drones. annti drone weaponry, all sorts of things. But you need to really feel that you're under physical imminent physical threat for that Hit the numers now you will get through. It's eleven, nineteen It's twenty minutes after eleven. It's a question of where the gate is, how big the threat is and crucially, how you persuade not just the British public, but also successive British prime ministers that the situation is urgent enough to demand that money be found from other places to spend on Defense And that leads us into the second question. What exactly would we spend it on Paul's in witness, Paul, what would you like to? Yeah, hi, James. The point I point I wanted to make was my job pri to S and was working for the Ministry of Defense My job is to go to various bases around the world that actually checked up the equipment that we're supposed to have we do actually have. right. And the point I want to make which I was explaining to a colleague is that The British public have no need to fear. We have a lot more equipment than what the general public are led to believe The only people who doubt what we've got are the likes of Fleet street newspapers When I go along to these bases or rather when I used to go along to these bases where you start listening stations in countries that you've never heard of When Iran blow and throw missiles at various countries d the week the majority of those countries have been and my friends and family who know where I used to used to say to me, You've been there, haven't there and I used to say yeah and used to say, Well, why are they throwing a missile up that particular country? I said I just said, well you don't know I'm not allowed to tell I'm not allowed to say what's there? Well can I can tell you that the reason to throw missililees there is because They know what. we know. It's Well this this is good and bad, isn't it? Because this is going to be information to which Secretaries of State to Defense are even more party than you were. So when they say but when they say we're under serious threat, they're drawing on things that they can't tell us. Well, I would disagree. I don' thing the thing I think is that while they're playing political games because at the end of the day, I mean, as much as I like Tom Tuan ask about wherever hiss name is as much as much as they look care and and de Benam, et cetera. The point I'm making is that We are the British public are about one hundred down the list of people who nurally know what's going on The real people who know what's going on. Well you live in offices in London, which nobody even knows which offices they exist in And the point of turned to me is that The British institution is sound as a pound in regard to the amount of military that we've got I've se mit't I can't let them Yeah, I understand what you're saying. butil all of the military leaders and anyone who's ever been close to the offffice of Secretary interrupting me when I'm interrupting you So successive seecretaries of State for Defense and every military leader ever are adamant that the threat is much, much bigger than we realise, and they need a lot more money to counter it Yeah, that's what I don't disagree. That's what I's going to say. But the blame politics That's the end of the day. They're not playing politics. dont I don't I mean I don't I mean, respectfully, it doesn't really matter what you've seen. And how much at odds it might be with what the public perception is, Wh would these men and women misrepresent the facts? Why would they Why would John Heley resign over something that's not true Well you know you're going to hit you with that question. It's a good one. I'm going to hit you with it again. so don't try and dodge it No I'm going to say I've read a couple of your books and the reason is that when people when people have got budgets, as if you remember in Yes Prime Minister and Yes Minister all those years ago Everybody defends their own budgets. And if you start turning around and saying, oh, we've got plenty of arm moments, we don't need any money. you've just got your budget there Yeah. But that doesn't explain why he resigned. No, it doesn't I think whyy would he resign over something that's not true? Well, people design lots and lots of things Yeah one would be one would be unfortunate. There's been two in twenty four hours. Why would they both resign over something that's not true There's been six of the last one. have to care to be honest with you, Yeah I did talk about that at ten o'clock, the political calculus of it. And listen, you've got the experience and I haven't. so it's a little bit rich for me to tell you. But then everybody else that's run in today who comes at it from a different angle from you has has also been of the view that the situation is almost certainly a lot more serious than the British public allows. I'll take some reassurance from what you've told us though Paul Obviously, I don't know when you first came on, I thought you were going to tell us about Myow Minder Binder, the character in catch twenty two who's flogging off all the military equipment to the highest bidder while serving in In the Second World War in Joseph Heller's catch twenty two Roger' in Cambridge, Roger, what would you like to say? I'd like to say that we talk about Estonia and Latvia as they're not at the gate. but NATO is the gate. Yes. And they've been in NATO since two thousand seven or so and Now talking to the lady who your research, or ass I'm not sure producers something like that Guru, Guru. Guru Cry The lady who runs the show for you. That's to our boss. Yes. The Cellny Badenok of the James O'Brien showow, the person who's really in charge, the real wom I mean, one thing I said if you if you walk down the street and ask a hundred people which Which Baltic states are in NATO? Yeah I think even if you gave them multiple choice, the answer that youve got would be more or less random People might remember that the recent arrive, you know, Sweden is probably the newest. They might remember that because it was only a couple of years ago, but not necessarily it's not bolted. The troops have been stationed in U you know,' visited Latvia and Estonia. and which aircft squadrons and things even though it's been publicly available information, almost nobody would know. and Job you know, NATO is a c cohesive hole. If it isn't a cohesive hole then it doesn't work and we're all in trouble. And much as there is a very is Tum point out that. Yeah to say, o, Latvia and Estonia. That's not the gate. It doesn't matter. Well Is it's a neutal defence pact? Of course it's the gate. That's brilliantly explained. and actually you've done a better job of explaining that than Tom Tugunhat did. So I mean my bad on that But it doesn't feel like the gate for I mean, you've made both points brilliantly, Roger. It doesn't feel like the gate because as you said, you'd ask a hundred people on the streets of this country which Baltic states are in NATO probably wouldn't have a clue Or they'd be part right, part wrong, or it'd be a lucky guess Is NATO our gate? Again, most people might not feel that it is. againgain, the man leading the opinion polls in this country is a swn critic of NATO and a sworn crony of the Kremlin. You can understand why the British public don't feel it as keenly as they should, but that is the problem in a nutshell, isn't it? that they are at our gate if our gate is defined by NATO membership And it must be, it should be Yes sound mean it must be, but I think we used to have a keener idea of what was going on when there were You know, the Brish Army of the Rhinee was big and we had What'sour perspective is not entirely civilian, I don't think, is it I've been a civilian civil servant in the Ministry of Defense and the Cabinet Office in UKSV. Right. So you speak then from the same perspective that people like Tuun Hat and Heel and Carn and Wallace speak in that you know stuff. no not even know because the information is freely available You put two and two together. People in those positions are required to have I to have certain levels of clearance. Well, they're required to have certain levels of clearance, but they're also required to to have certain amounts of briefing. Yes. And in the same way that people who work in an office block have to do a fire alarm once a year or something? Yes. They have to do something to make sure that they are up to date on Th things like threats. I can tell you're choosing your words very carefully probably because of what you used to do for a living. So I'll ask this question then. We forget, don't we that politicians and civil servants are just human beings. Could it be that if I'm Secretary of State for Defense, I am made aware of things that I Prime Minister could know and should know somehow doesn't know in quite the same way that a Secretary of State for Defense knows Well, there's a there's a funnel every government department' sort of upside down and information flows from the bottom to the top. and we hope that them stuff go to the. You'd think John Hillley would sit in that office before resigning and say, lookook, Mate Kia. You don't understand. Bing bang bong But I think I think nine times out of ten Minister resignations of this nature are because the last recourse of our government minisry is to say I can't be having this change it or I resign. And if somebody says, Well, we're not changing it, then you're stuck. We're going. But he's failed to communicate the necessity for changing it. And I find that hard to believe if I think I think there's an assumption But when we talk, other people know what we're talking about, I mean, they not just about this, but about everything my wor you say that there are certain political viewpoints that you disagree with. And much as you do it every day and say, L you're still, you know, somebody turned on the radio, they'd have to listen for a very long time to hear all of the reasons that you Yes. Now, you're right. And so there there's a necessity for shorthand, which is probably unrealistic. And yet I still, I think out of everything that I've learnted today, that's the bit I can't quite Cnect It's like the spark that leaps from one node to another. How can successive defend Politicians, ministers, secretaries of state, how can they all fail so signally to persuade prrime ministers of what they have been persuaded of Actually don't go yet. I'm a bit late for the news. Do You you see what I mean? have you' got an answer to that question? Why the successive secies M of them a lot of them were of the running down of defense budgets have been during the peace reion. Yeah bought into the into the whole idea that we needed less and We need a certain amount and We do things like we had to rely on the French, Well, that's not that bad a thing. We work together with allies. The difficulty we've got is that our biggest ally is not standing up and with every breath they say saying we're there for you, which has always been the case before. opposite. And that's And that's potentially problematic because it means that we'll have to And that's something else they can't say That So John Heilly couldn't put in his letter yesterday. And also, you know, Donald Trump's delinquent. so we really need we really need to do this I think he would have felt that was an inappropriate thing to write. so do I, even though it's true Yeah You're good. I really enjoyed listening to you. Thank you for that, Roger Okay Mind, how you go Eleven thirty three is the time Don't to get us as your headlon. eleven thirty six is the time and I suppose if you're not worried enough about our defence, then think about what would have happened if we had a different prrime Minister when Donald Trump decided to dance to Benjamin Netanyahu's tune and launch attacks upon Iran Kemy Badenoch and Nigel Farage, both adamant that we should have been in full support of them, but various flavourors of reverse Ferret subsequently. I think Badenoch tried to argue that when she said we should be in full support, she didn't mean that we should actually do anything We should just cheer very loudly Seriously, that's just genius When I said that we should do everything we could to support them, I didn't mean we should do anything. I just meant we should cheer very loudly, whatever it was that they did. And Nigel Farage, of course, is likely at twelve o'clock to completely contradict whatever it was that he said at eleven o'clock, that it's not even worth reminding ourselves of what it was that it said. But we must always bear in mind that he is a Kremlin apologist And that one of his closest political allies, friends and proteges, is currently in jail. serving a sentence for accepting bribes from a Kremlin stooge in return for polluting public discourse in the European Parliament and beyond with lines that were fed to him by a Kremlin stooge That is Nigel Farag's close friend and former protege Nathan Gill So conversations about Russian influence on British politics that don't reach back to Brexit and the promotion in this country and the dominance on some social media platforms of politician who is supremely sympathetic to Russia up to and including the claim that Ukraine should just sort of roll over. and give them Crimea or Ukraine should just sort of roll over and surrender its own defenses and that in defending sovereignty in Ukraine or Baltic states would somehow involve poking the Russian bear or that NATO. Where does a bloke who went to Dullich College end up thinking that NATO is a bad idea 's a genuine question And schools like Dulwich College would teach both the importance of the post war settlement, NATO and its role in preventing Europe from slipping back into land warfare, preventing World War II. How on earth would a bloke who went? I know he never went to university, but how would a bloke who went to Dullwich College end up thinking that NATO was the enemy Putin was our friend. There's a question you could ask him if you were sitting down with him for a few hours After you've asked him about the Russian spies that supposedly hacked his phone, hashtag alerts. after you've asked him about is it just the one billionaire that's given you five million quid? I was thinking about that this morning Be you don't know now Everything Nigel Farris does could be because Christopher Harbourne wants him to. I was also thinking about the nonsense about his phone being hacked by Russian spies, which I'm sure anybody who's had the pleasure of sitting down with him recently would have quizzed him about mercilessly. Just show us the proof. showhow us the proof that your phone was hacked by Russian Spies Mail on Sunday printed it unquestioningly, but they also printed your lies about an assassination attempt that a French mechanic had told you about Unfortunately, someone tracked down the French French mechanic and he called Um It called BS on the clay How do we know now what's going on? How did the news come out? What if Farage has been given loads of money by loads of billionaires I'm not saying he has, I'm just asking questions Let's say he's been gi loads of money by loads of billionaires secretly. and we've only found out about one of them because the billionaires were trying to remind him of the deal Just thinking out loud, just asking questions. But let's say ten billionaires, ten people who've made a fortune out of crypto and would make more fortunes out of the kind of policies that he announced shortly after accepting five million pounds secretly from Christopher Harbourne. I forget what his tie name is, the one he uses to do business in Thailand, where he lives Hashack Patriot. What if there were ten of them that gave him five million quid? What if he's got fifty million quid squirreled away secretly And they just decided to remind him what his job was You're not being you're not doing enough stochastic terrorism, Nigel So you better make a speech that encourages people to start lobbing bricks at the pillag. Otherwise, you know, We might start releasing details of the other forty five million quid that you've taken from a Kabal of cryptocurrency billionaire. I'm just thinking out, I'm just asking questions But what I mean, how do we know If you kept the first five million pounds secret, how that's the kind of question I'd ask him If you kept the first five million pounds secret, how the hell do we know there's not another ten million or forty five million And that every time you do something now it's because they're pulling the string And the embarrassment that you feel, because you're still hiding from all proper inquiries and all proper interviews, still hiding. From all proper inquiries and all proper interviews Because you know this is big and you know this is a massive problem that's the leverage they've got Imagine if it came out tomorrow, there's another ten million or another fifteen million or another thirty five million. Then where would he be? So the phone call rings, We need you to do this now, please Otherwise, it may mysteriously reached the Guardian newspaper that the five million pounds you took secretly from one cryptocurrency billionaire was actually just the tip of the iceberg You're not so much the count of Dodgy crypto, you're the flipping king. Just thinking out loud, just asking questions. We all like questions, don't we But how do you know how much money he's taken secretly from cryptocurrency? That's certainly a question you'd want to ask him, wouldn't it? I mean, ask him what his favorite song is first. Of course Spoiler alert it is the chicken song from sppitting Image And then ask him, how do we know So every single time Nigel Farrage speaks now, you should be asking yourself, is this him speaking? Or is this the people that secretly give him millions and millions and millions of pounds Probably not somebody. Tommy you should be tickling point in the political cycle, but he What do I know? eleven forty two is the time. spepeaking of Trump and the Dlinquency I alluded to with Roger, who was clearly a man who really knew what he was talking about. If you're new to this programe, we're blessed callers like that, notot every day, not on every subject, but as you would have discovered over the course of the last hour of forty minutes, we kind of get callers that you wouldn't normally find on a radio phoneage show here And I don't want to overalyze it or try to work out why, but we're very, very grateful and would always be so But here's a little flavor of the man that Nigel Farage and Kemmy Baderot felt that we should be offering full throated and let's not pretend military support to when he decided to launch a ludicrous war against Iran. This is At the current count, CNN, the American News Organization reckon that He has now announced a deal with Iran or and or called off an imminent invasion of Iran, no fewer than thirty nine times This is why you can't analyze it anymore. This is why Ashy Northampton, who's brilliant at analyzing stuff som days just throws his arms up in the air and goes, what am I supposed to do? It's like nailing jelly to a wall or Jello if you're American. It's like herding cats. How can you possibly use the tools of intelligence and analysis to L out what this bloke is doing We have. major points of agreement. They want to make a deal. And we are very willing to make a deal. Well, I think we're going to end it I can't tell you for sure or they want to make a deal so badly. You have no idea how badly they want to make a deal? They want to make a deal so badly. I do see a deal in Iraq. We were very close to a deal. I think it's close to over. I mean, I view it as very close to over. It's looking very good that we're going make a deal with Iran and it's going to be a good deal. This process should go very quickly. We're going to end that war very quickly. They want to make a deal so badly. We think we're close to a deal And that's okay. We're in the final throws of what will be a very, very good deal thirty nine times now. It was funny when I first did it. It's Monday, so it must be a ceasefire. It's Tuesday, so it must be a glorious victory and a complete obliteration of Irania's military capabilities. It's Wednesday, so it must be a vicious threat that if you don't do what we want, despite the fact that we've already obliterated you, then we'll invade you tomorrow. It's Thursday, so it must be that a deal is imminent. Any minute now they're going to sign a deal, the best deal, the greatest deal you've ever seen. It's Friday We're back to trumpeting a potential ceasefire again. It's Saturday, Ohh, no we're not. No, we're not we're going to k them. It's Sunday, no, we're not going to kill them. We're going to do a deal with them. It was funny when I first did that I even enjoyed the Craig David references It's not funny now eleven forty eight is the Times headline across the bottom of the sky news sccreen. Donald Trump cancels plans to launch strikes against Iran Hands up if you were surprised Hands up if you think anybody anywhere in the world was surprised. Can I just check that we have all got our hands That's. no, it's not happening Unbelievable and on we go. On we go eleven, forty eight is the time. backack to the question of defence. Mike's South Chels, Mike, what made you pick up the phone Okayy, James. Yeah. I think the point I want to make and I don't think if it's been made already, but 's about deterrences and spend the money to deter So clearly what we don't want to do is find ourselves in a kinetic war against Russia U So the three and a half percent of GDP would be used to develop our forces give NATO a credible force that we can use to deter the Russions. I think the lessons from history if you look at World War I, World War I is once we become engaged in a fight you know, A, we lose lots of our best people. I've got kids you know coming of age now I'm still serving myself. I don't want that to happen But also the outcome of that age, you then increase your spending up to fifty percent, sometimes more which you then spend generations paying off. So in order to spend a little bit of money now, if that stops us in the future having to spend the next sixty, seventy eighty years of having to spend of our resources on paying off debts regarding wars and then should That a message we send to the population. It's a bit like thinking that you can save a few quid by not paying your fire insurance. And then your house burns down. Well. I mean, the problem is and no one has made this point before, so thank you for that. The problem is it doesn't undo the central coundrum this morning, which is that people don't really feel or believe or buy this that the the scale and the urgency of the threat. So it's contingent, I think you'd agree, upon Putin will do after Ukraine which is contingent upon him winning and prevailing, which of course he thought he would do. So we may have got the letter. we may have got the memo about what he was going to do next a few years ago if elensky hadn't defied everybody's expectations and all the odds putting up such an incredible fight. But it is the it's either you believe Putin has a shopping list or you don't. And if you believe Putin has a shopping list, then your argument becomes absolutely irresistible Yeah, I agree. And you know, I think the messages haven't been put across there. think I think we get it in the military all We it every day, but I don't understand and my family gets it. I don't understand why the messaging from this government hasn't been that clear you know clearly John Healey and the last government and the last government they've only been in for two years. But John Heeley and now Kant have also failed to make the messaging clear. I mean, it's a little bit rich, only a little bit rich because these are clearly principled resignations to leave saying we haven the government haven't made a clear enough case for the thing that I'm calling for. when I mean a large part of your job surely, is to make a clear case for the thing that you're calling for I mean, to a certain degree, I mean, I tryed to get the message out as much as possiblely to my family, but like I said, I don't mean you, Mike, I meanant John Healy now C'es. I'm saying that they should be making this more clearly M Yeah, absolutely And Yeah, I mean, that's point isn't it? if people do understand it if they understand that it's a little bit of money to that might cost a few sectors You know, a couple of percent, whatever it is, but ultimately it keeps their kids out of war, K keeps themselves out of war and stops to spending the rest of our lives paying off deb And everything hinges upon whether or not people feel that the enemy is at the gate and the gate is a notional concept because of course under NATO membership, the gate is Estonia and Latvia. It's the borders of Estonia and Latriia. It's the border with Russia. That's the gate. So of course the enemy is at the gate. And yet your average punter, whether they're in South Sields or South Port probably not going to feel that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's the key teritory, isn't it? Yeah I mean I'm going to go home today actually with a better grasp of this than I had before I started talking, which doesn't always happen, but not with any big answer to the question because there was a good answer to it and an obvious answer to it John Healley and Al Cars would have made it. In fact, Ben Wallis and Tom Tuenhat would have made it. And I think I owe Tom Tukenhat an apology because I think when he talks about being at the gate, He was highlighting a problem. He wasn't missing the point. He was highlighting the problem. of the fact that people don't know where the gate is and of course the gate is where NATO membership ends. Unfortunately, we're living in a Discourse at the moment, dominated by Trump and Farage, who are sworn enemies of NATO as is Vladimir Putin. Make of that what you will Anyway Here's his favorite breakfast cereal Gary's in Cala Gary, what would you like to say Hello, C Bri U They're not at the the breach they're not at the gate actually, they're in the breach. Okay and they're getting ready to cross over. That's further than the gate for people who are not familiar with the vocabulary of warfare Okay, it's the Zulans crosshing the meey bags at Rok' Drift. Okay I was I was at I had to take a tour out of the British Army earlier this year And my brief was to advise them on a battle of Bulch, nineteen forty four. They were looking at what you learned from that lessons learned for current and future warfare current and future warfare. Right. that was what the tour was doing So I get on the coach, various people there, British Army officers from somewhere in the West countountry. they are influencers Do Cyber warfare specialists in both defense and attack sitting down and talking to them about what they were looking at It's already happening. already looking and they said, when you look at what we would have done, sixty years ago, you would have bombed aotor a motor factory in Germany, a car warehouse in Germany. That's an ax ofvir. We're already looking on the internet b lot of money and we all know where it goes to where factories have being shut down via cyber, you've had issues with banks, you've had issues with the NHS, you've had issues with power, distribution centres, etcet. And when they look at that back, it all goes back to one place and it's going back to Russia. So it a really Where are we at the moment? And everyone on the coach knows this They were all from the British Army. And they all know this. they understand this because the average punter doesn't That's the problem. is No pushed It is it not first That's the sixty four thousand dollars question. Is it because of fear? Be I was talking to one of your radio presenters earlier this year, Trump Stawbridge, when it was to do with cyber warfare, and the Labour Party or the government have brought in cyberare. I believe you're seeing other presenters, Gary. I thought we had something special I apologize for that Jat needs your hobby O on And thearre, when I explain to him about you where the people that are even doing some of this stuff within the UK don't even know they're actually sort of they think they're talking to a teenage kid in France and they're talking to a fifty year old Russian advisor somewhere in St. Petersburg Gu I turned around and said, Well, we don't want to put panic into the country, do we? And that is a position, isn't it? I mean, it's a real It's a position When Carool Cadwallard was arguing these points quite a long time ago and she was not only misogynistically abused by people like Andrew Neil, She was kind of dismissed by people in Boris Johnson's government as well So where you looked at where should the money go? The money's already being spent, we know that Things like sexy looking tanks, aircraft and ships are way down the line. It's a now situation They look at what the British Army are looking at all well and good. One of the things that came out was the drone warfare explosion that we've seen They've now got to a point in the Ukraine And it is that Ukraine is now leading the world in drone warfare on the battlefie They're looking at drones being three D printed twenty miles from the battlefield put together with a range of around about forty miles. And we should be going all in on that. That that's such a point. That's the kind of thing that we could be doing and now Yes O the sh increase we've got influencers that we're employing that they tended to be behind some when I was speaking to them. I said, what do you do? And I said, We go and we confront pro pro Russian propaganda. We put our own emphasis on it as well. So we need more of that as well. We need a lot more of that. peopleople, I'm not going to say like yourself, but we need to push it more and more and more to highlight what's happen. You say people like me. I've got you. I've got two hours today of callers who've done done an awful lot of what you're describing The bigger problem is Brexit do you think? How big a problem is the It shouldn't really be a problem for this government. It's pretty clear whether it affected the result or not, I suppose it depends how close the result was that Putin wanted Brexit, just like he wanted Trump in the White House and that he would have deployed all the tools and all the weapons that you described to make those two things happen. He also wants Nigel Farris to be in Downing Street. of that we can be certain. But if you're a member of the media and you've gone all in on supporting Trump and supporting Brexit and now you're ticling Nigel Farris's toes, you're not going to be very interested in making these points clear, are you? No, and the Russians you haveve always got to remember Russia is always meddled in European affairs. haven back two hundred years. This scale's huge. And the trouble is now is it's a bit like the thirties, the Nazis had a radio in every house Now, Putin's got the internet Genghis Khan's got the internet. He's everywhere And that's what you've got to confront. I think you're right, actually, but I've not heard it put in quite such comprehensible and digestible terms in a long time, Gary. Yeah you're Great.rere such a star. I really love it when you call me. even though you apparently also call other presenters, I'm going to let that pass on this occasion Because you're such good quality. Thank you very much. But it is frightening. It' proper frightening, but you've done it. We've got to the end of the hour probably move on to something else next. and I think you've and the call it before and then the mess combined contributions previously, I think probably if everybody in the country was listening to this programe, God, what a better place Britain would be. But if everyone in the country and in Parliament and in government was listening to this programme, we probably managed to have achieved something that John Healley has apparently failed to Achieve which is persuading, making the case for immediate and urgent Action greater than what is currently scheduled. My day youo, Gary, seriously, it's coming up to twelve noon. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC I mean quite a few of you are telling me that the passing of David Hockney deserves a lot more attention. We are canvassing for a good quality guest to talk to us about his legacy and his importance, but I'm wondering whether we should just do what we always do on this programe and throw open the phone lines. too the question of why he was such a significant artist, how big a hole he will leave in the pantheon of British art and what it was about him and crucially his work that managed to touch so many people ree minutes after twelve is the time, Do you think it's possible? asks Eileen that Putin played a part in the violent riots in Belfast? Yes I do. tell you that Steven Yaxle Lenin is in Moscow as we speak, sharing a post showing a Russian nationalist group which will be Hardcore Putin Easters forming a torch lit ceremony for Henry Novak because they mourn his passing, but because they have chosen to completely ignore his morning father's plea that nobody either turns it into a conversation about race, which it isn't, a crime about race, which it wasn't or indeed an opportunity for political point scoring that they've chosen, like Nigel Farrage, these Russian nationalists have chosen to completely ignore Henry's father and turn it into precisely the things that they've asked. that it not be turned into as indeed has the family of the The man that was attacked Stephven Ogley, who was attacked in Belfast, his family have also asked for people not to turn it into an opportunity for race riots or political point scoring, as indeed if Fuseer Lee Rigby's family afterfter he was murdered. They asked people not to turn it into a conversation about racism, as indeed did Alice Gross's family after she was murdered by somebody who wasn't born here, all of those families, all of those grieving mourning families asking people not to tell racist lies in response to their loved oness loss and all of them being roundly ignored by people like Steven, Yaxy Lennon and Nigel Farridge, makeake of that what you will, but I think it's a fairly comprehensive answer to your question, Iileen I want to move on Eleanor and I have had a minor disagreement Do you mind, Eleanor if I share this? I meanmand would you demand the right of reply You would. No one's ever heard your voice before, ha't it Okay. so I think that we could B do an hour on the death of David Hockne Probably Bradford's most famous son. And one of the most significant artists of the twentieth century, never mind one of the most significant British artists, which is obviously a much smaller constituency just one month short of his eighty ninth birthday. he's passed away peacefully at home or did pass away peacefully at home on the eleventh of june. so he died yesterday I think we probably could I think if I get the questions right, then people like Alice who's been in touch to say, after decades of listening to LBC, today is the day I pray you step up, James David Hockney was the greatest British living artist until today or yesterday actually to be Pedantic Alice, and now is one of Britain's greatest ever artists I'm heartbroken. I hope to hear loads about it. Who hasn't he painted? So many stories. The teacher who said he would amount to nothing if he followed a career in art. and a portrait that takes two days for him to paint can now be worth well over a million pounds Goodness knows how much it would be worth today I feel bereft. I am an artist and he is my icon prraying LBC gets it Soays Alice in Netherad. Well, it's up to you, Alice And it's up to everybody else listening to this programm to step up now and properly mark the passing of One of Britain's greatest ever artist who until yesterday was Britain's greatest ever Living artist probably be challenged that position by the likes of Lucian Freud and Francis Bacon, but they pred deeceased him. They passed away before he did. I love art. I can be transported by art I'm not a proper Eastthet, I'm not a proper connoisseur when it comes to our, I can talk a little bit more confidently about other art forms. I think I'm probably at my best on drama plays and literature where can I can bow for England and music, I have sat in concert halls and felt tears spring unprompted from my eyes as a direct visceral primal response of music I enjoy art galleries. I have visited art galleries and I have felt something shift inside me, but I'm not going to pretend that I can stand in front of a David Hockney painting and feel all of the things that I feel when I'm listening to a Beethoven symphony or reading Shakespeare But I know that you do. I know that people do. I know that they're is veryer much a response to art Some art has got me over years, Anthony Gormley's work, if you ever witnessed that, but that's massively in its scale. We way, way. The Chinese artist I went to see his stuff at the Tate mododern and I think the best way of describing it is almost losing time Losing track of time when you are engaged in a cultural pursuit. So you come out of the there and you think, Wh the hell you come out of the cinema And you think that was two hours. That feels like it was two minutes You can be listening to a piece of music and just lose yourself. Forget whereere you are, what you're doing, close your eyes and you just go somewhere special. It's almost transcendental. I think that's the correct use of the word And and, you know, I've seen the Mona Lisa And it's mad. that something happens when you looks tiny, It's a tiny, tiny little thing very misrepresented through the ages, the Ma Lis side, turned up at the Louvre, expecting it to be enormous I guess its own room. So again you think it must be enormous. Tiny little thing, but it's something in the eyes. I don't know what it is about that. It's magical hypnotic, mesmeric I love someome artists, you know, I love I love David Hotney's work. I can look at it for hours. I've got on my walls that I could only afford to buy before I had children. I look forward to having enough money again to buy quite moderately expensive art again. So I'm not a complete philistine But I want you to tell me why David Hockney was so special as an artist and as a man Why was David Hockney so special as both an artist and as a man And I have no requirements, really of knowledge or expertise. You can be responding as someomeone who drives a milk float in Basing Stoke as a very good friend of mine does, or you can be responding as someone who's got several degrees in fine art from the finest institutions on the planet. What was it about Hockney? So explain either to the converted or to the unconverted what it was about David Hockney that rendered him Britain's greatest living artist Until yesterday when he passed away just shy of his eighty ninth birthday. The number you need, as always on this program is zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven and I want to do this properly Not just because he's a Yorkshireman, which means he sort of speaks to my family background, but also because when we turn our attention to art on this programe We're normally doing it in a slightly met way. We're normally doing it in a slightly post modern way. We might ask a question about why anyone would pay any money for a banana that's been sellot taped to a wall. And they're interesting conversations, but they're not really conversations about ar The' conversations about humans and I want to do I want to talk about David Hockney in a way that actually just unapologetically recognizes the power and the impact both art, and of the man himself because I know quite a lot about him. I know that he was a chain smoker who was quite passionately opposed to the smoking ban, which would normally put him on my list of people to be condemned and avoided, but there's a charm attached to the man that allows him to hold these ridiculous opinions and not to be thought less of because of them. He smoked until the end of his life. so he's going to become, do you remember when we were kids There'd always be someone who said, I don't think smoking is bad for you because my grandsmoked fifty wouldood byine a day and she was one hundred and six when she died. And you go, Yeah, that doesn't actually prove that none of the people who died of smoking related diseases didn't die of smoking. It just proves that your grand was very lucky. So David Hockney probably gets filed into that category It talked about smoking quite a lot. When I was young, of course you think you're immortal. That is why the young smoke. They think they're immortal. They always will. peopleeople who don't know I much about him and indeed for people who do I'd invite you to Tell us why And I guess the rayota goes to someone who was painted by him There must be someone listening at the moment. We've got so many listeners now. it's ridiculous. We've got listeners coming out of our ears There must be somebody listening I wonder if you have ever painted Gary in Calis. Unfortunately, you're not allowed on twice in one day on this programe. There must be someone listening. If you've never phone a radio station before and you didn't think you ever will I wonder whether you'd join me in marking the passing of the master by telling us a little bit about what it was like to actually be painted by him Be there will be by all the laws of all the averages, there must be somebody listening to this programme at the moment who was painted by David Hockney I'll take him Obviously I'll take five degrees of separation as well, but the rayotor will be reserved for the caller who was actually painted by David Hockney. I'd love to know what it was like in his studio. I think Harry Styles was painted by him quite recently. If you're listening, Harry zero three four five six zo six zero nine seven three I think we deserve to know what it was like. The massacre now of course nobody else ever will be Painted by David Hockney. so only you could tell us what it is actually like to be in that studio. But the more common the easier perspective to adopt is the perspective of the Appreciator, the East, the art lover What it was about David Hockney in particular that earned him his place in the Pantheon. What was it he did that made him Britain's greatest living artist and makes him now one of great one of Britain's Greatest ever artists. The numbers you need are as always o three, four, five sixixz sixz Nine, seven, three. What made him so special As an artist And if you're lucky enough to have an insight on this as a man sixixteen minutes after twelve. The disagreement with Eleanor was about whether or not we would have enough people listening to this to merit an entire hour on David Hockney. And there's only really one way to find out. I'm not going to tell you which way round it was, but let's just say that Eleanor normally wins these arguments and we arere now dedicating an entire hour to the passing of David Hawke U Emily's in Harringate, Emily, what would you like to say Hi. So David Oney is one of my favourite artists. I love his work. colourors, the composition. Well, the first thing is is my uncle featured a lot in his paintings So even though I've never met David and these paintings were somewhere even before I was born or when I was very little, it's always been like a thing in our family. That's your uncle?. Swimming in the swimming pools in LA in the seventies. Not John Stain. Clair Don't think that. Sut up No, absolutely. Yeah Yeah. Yeah ye ye. So just a really lovely thing in our family. And obviously when my kids King and Ace came home from school and they said We're studying David Hockney, I was like, Oh, that's your great uncle that you're studying. That was really nice But his work speaks to kids as well because I think the colours are so beautiful love colour. There's like a simplicity in his work which in some ways makes it more complicated I don't know if that makes sense. Of course it makes sense. If you like art and you understand art, you understand how simplicity is actually very beautiful You have to be able to do the complicated stuff before you can start unpacking it and doing the simple stuff. Yeah yeah yeah yeah, yeah, exactly So yeah, I'm really sad today because one I would have loved to have met Hot means if I had that kind I had that fantasy in my head that we'd meet and I don't know why I just thought Monday we might meet and I could tell him, but of course, you know. How did they know each other think just sort of on the the young art scene in London in the seventies, I don't really know because I wasn't really born, but yeah of course they kind of just knew each other. My uncle went to art college, so I guess that's how yeah, I don't know. So don't you don't have any I don't I bought one once like a copy of of eBay. for like five thousand and got it framed. so I pretend it's my real hockney. you've spoilt it now. If you ever go an Antiques Roadshow, they're going to dig this clip out. They're gonna to bust you big a fraud ster. My fraud yourour uncle's not with us anymore either think My uncle is alive. Oh sorry. But very very old. Yeah very old. ye. He'll be raising a glass today, metaphorically or actually. Imagine he will be. He used to live in a flat in Brixon. I think he had quite a few hckneys and my dad before he passed my dad died quite recently. my dad said, if ever John needed money, he would get a hockney out and that was a little line that my dad would So you would, wouldn't you Yeah, just a hckney sketch, not even like a big painting. Are you an art person yourself or are you just love this guy because you have a personal connection? havet. You do. So can you just have a cracker? Have a cracker talking to me briefly about colour because so I might say, well, surely anyone can do that if they've got the right paints I think I think it's Maybe it's having the confidence to put the two colours together or the three colours together, but I think some people don't have that don't have that eye. Some people have an eye for interior design and know where things go and some people have a yeah, so I think Hockney had the eye. I think he was a nice person. I remember there was a story years ago about a young art student who she messaged him through maybe even before the internet and he faxed her like loads of his work when all the faxes came through, she had to arrange him in set when it made a big picture. He did stuff with iPads as well later in his career, didn't he Yeah, used a lot of different m what is it called like yeah media? Just stick media. He didn't just stick to one thing F his work is very different. If you look at early pictures to modern, they're very you know, they're not all the same No I mean he was constantly changing and evolving. Het He didn't become his own tribute act as some artists could do, but I can't think of any that did, and it would be rude of me to say so if I could, I'm just looking at a bigger splash now while you were speaking at sixty seven nineteen sixty seven, which is perhaps an example of what Emily meant when she talks about some of the compositions being quite simple. Albeit that I don't know how you'd paint the splash unless you were possessed of a particular talent, but these incredibly symmetrical sort of Californian swwimming pool skcapes for want of a better word. actuallyually maybe there isn't a better word with you know, a couple of long thin palm trees in the background and then a very straight line pool house, glass, very Californian and then a diving board and then the splash. I think he described it as the split second moment of the splash itself frozen on canvas, probably best known when I was young for the swimming pool stuff, not not the one featuring Emily's unc, uncle John, but the ones featuring nothing except a splash, the moment of the splash. But I can't tell you why that's brilliant. and Maybe you can tell me. Stuart's in deal. Stewart, what would you like to say G morning, How are you doing? I'm good. As soon as I heard what had happened, it kind of made me want to call in for the first time because I actually had the very good fortune of I spending a day with mister Hockney in two thousand two, and he drew me So I have a couple of copies of the drawing he did of me and he signed one of them, which says. So it says in the bottom corner twenty ninth of june two thousand two, David Huckney And it was just a total blast, you know, it was a total shock for this to happen. And still to this day, twenty odd years later, I still kind of shiver. As I go through the day. I bet you do every time you sit, tellell me what happened? How did you end up in his orbit So at that time, I was working as a photographer's assistant all over London And I work with various photographers. And on this particular week, I was invited to work with a gentleman from Los Angeles called Jim McHugh, who did a lot of work for a lovely magazine out there called Architectural Digest.. And Jim and David were all mates from David's time in LA. Yeah And then he called me and he said, I've just got your number from someone, come and do a job with me. and day one was Michael Flatley of Riverdampain, whichich is another story. It was a very strange day going in my bko. This is from the ridiculous to the subublime. You' no idea. Michael Flatley had little silver bowls all around the house with his initials en grap and photographs of himself with various people in frame and things. it was totally different But the next day in Holland Park was he told me that we're going to go and do David Hockney. and I still get gooebumps to this day because I've followed Hockney since I was a child. I went to Slair Mills. to see his work up there and learn about type of salt, the industrialist And then to find myself in his house was incredible because we spent the day photographing him, him and Jim are old friends, like I said, so they got on like old friends and we asked David to do various things around his studio where we took these lovely photographs on big old large format cameras. And then in between things, I think he heard my accent. I think he just caughted my Northern accent and he was like, where are you from, Stuart I said, I'm from Lancashire, not too far away from you guys in Bradford. He goes, Oh, you know about this So I had had a chat with him about the type of salt mills, the saltare mills and everything. Yeah. And he decided he just kind of like put his arm around me and started taking me around his studio and he took me into a room. Mate where All right, easy. Now he took me into this like antique chamber, like small room in his gallery where he showed me his latest piece that had not yet been finished. And it was called Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden And it was like this diorama that spread from left to right in this long oblong shape And it was all made up from small pieces of A four printer paper which is like bue sacks over the wall And then he painted on top of it. and I was like, what are you doing And say, well, basically, it means I can fax it to the gallery in Los Angeles And that's what they put up on the wall. So he wasn't even se in pictures. And he said it came about because years before, in a fit of peak against a gallery that were doing him over and we' like he thought they were ripping him off they kept saying you all was a painting, you was a painting. And he had this big canvas painting in his studio that he was now getting a bit piss stuff that he had to excuse me. had to send it to this gallery who we no longer enjoyed working with. So in a fitish peak he got some scissors And he cut the painting up into like dozens of A four pieces of canvas. which he then faxed to the gallery and said there you go, there's your painting. So that gave him the idea of This is a better way of sending things around the world.. So you showed me this amazing painting. I was very juffed. We carried on with the day. And then right at the end of the day, as I'm clearing up all the equipment, which is my job as the assistant, pack down the lights, look after the camera gear the lenses, the film, whatever as I was doing doing that. He said to me, Stewart, Do you have to go anywhere or do you want to stay for some supp? And I said, I would I looked at Jim and Jim just nodded with a smile. So his assistant went and got a few cans of guuinness. David himself put a pan of pasta on. And I ended up sitting around the table with David Hockney. Hving a guuinness and a bowl of pasta while we talked about various things and then out of the blue, he said, Stent you mind if I draw you And he always wears these like fisherman's jacket. Yeah. these waistcoats. and in each one he has little pens and pencils and sketch pads And I said, No, of course not So I sat at the table while he carried on talking to Jim and he got his brown felt tips out and he just did this really nice little sketch of me ook in five minutes and then he said Lovely. Thank you. And then I carried on having my little gineits and my pastor just kind of shaking and just wondering what the hell going on? I'm going wake up in a minute. I'm gonna wake up in aute Yeah. I was like, yeah, I want to wake up when I I'm in a high a balloon. And I finally realized that it was getting a bit later, It was like eight o'clock whatever I'm like Jim I' got to get all this got to get all this kit back. I mean, I'm in Holland Park and I've got to do this and And he said, right, no problem, great. away then called the cab whatever, put all the kit in, said goodbye, and on my way out, David's assistant came to me with this mananila envelope and inside it, he done two color copies on this big printer. And one was just the image and on the other one, David ass signigned it and dated it in the corner. So boy. So I kept this and it gets worse, right? it gets worse. Guess what I did with it? I don't know I lost it. Are you joking No, I found it again. No' worry. I took it all home, I got the kit backag, blah, blah, blah. I saw my mom And my I said to my Mum, something really weird just happened. A you al right? Yes. M, I've just been drawn by David Hop. And she said, Oh really? Who's he? Oh Fata I love ms. Mums are.es. In the background, his mum's step dad' liver puddly as scouts And and his little bice in the background shout Bloku draws boys So I said, Mom, no, it's David Hockney. He's one of Britain's greatest living ares. M, never mind. So what I did was I framed the one he drew me and I gave it to my mom as a present. And I said, They go. That's my present to you M. a scient picture of me by David Hockney And she gave it me back. She s I don't like it. So I then put it somewhere. Talk about the eye of the beholder. I've moved the house two or three times because I was young and I couldn't find it anywhere. and I started looking for it and then Literally about a year ago, I found it like wrapped up in something in amongst lots of magazines and books and things and I'm very happy to have found it because Now of course, I've got this lovely memory of an incredible guy and one of the greatest artists this country's ever produced and I had that day. you've been torwn by him? I mean do you know what happened to the original? We have a kind of Well it was in his notebooks. he's got his. o. so it'll probably turn up somewhere in a retrospect. So the original drawing is in a sketchbook and Rember I remember seeing a couple of years late he had Times magazine about a new exhibition he was having And as well as the watercolors and the true paintings, there was a number of sketches of people. and they were like the people that he knew.. So So I'm assuming that that's what he, you know, he's like this hisis output is quite incredible. It's not just large pieces and commission pieces. He just draws all the time. and he was like, you know, it was like a fx. just Every minute he pick something up and draw something and Yeah, of course like that impulse. That's absolutely incredible. It feels a little bit I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to pollute the magic of the moment, but I said there'd be a rayota for anyone who rang in who'd actually been drawn by David Hockney. so you definitely get one of these. I'm Rayota and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC you build it We've built it, mate, but you came. And the Salz Mill is still got a big collection of hognes, hasn't it? The Saltz Mill Center You know what I haven't been up there since because I haven't been there since about twenty twelve. I think or something. So we probably need to double check before we start sending coach looads of people down up to Shipley to I'd love to go again because I mean, you know the whole story of Tit of Salt, the industrialist and the way that he used his money to build schools and build hospitals and build houses It's a wonderful story though. Built a whole town, Solire, as you said, I mean kind of early philanthrop, not early but classic philanthropist Stuart. you're an absolute star. What a story, mate. Thankk you Thank you very much, and you know it's a shame on the day that this is the reason why I'm sharing this story. But it's appropriate as well. What are you going to ring me about next time? This is going to take some beating Probably Michael Flaty. I've got a story about him as well. It'is twelve thirty one back here is here with the headline twelve thirty four is the time. and the art gallery is still there at Salt' Mill. I know that because Ben was there yesterday eating. had his dinner there last night. The mill still has Hockney's artwork. Even the restaurant and the menu were designed by Hockney, and the staff wear uniforms featuring one of his drawings You know, I'm pushing my luck a bit at the moment, eh At the end of the conversation about defense I' patting well patting all of us on the back for the quality of calls that we took and the extraordinary array of people that that that we get to hang out with every day on the programme. And then up pop those first two callers, the niece of John Stinc Clair, who features in one of Hartney's most iconic pictures and Stuart who literally got dw drawn, dw, drawn by by the artist who, if you're just joining us, I' sorry to tell you has passed away at the age of eighty eight I think his place in the Pantheon of art and of British art in particular is Assured. Why? What is it about him that created what was so phenomenal as in literally what made him a phenomenon. And if you had personal encounters with him as Stuart did, although the bar has been set quite high, then what was it about his character that rendered him so iconic That's not a word you've heard me use very often, by the way, iconic and that's not a coincidence Gary is in Chipley, appropriately enough. Gary, what would you like to say Hi James, how you doing? I'm good, Gary. Good. So James, at first time call I wanted to call in and literally as I'm talking to you, I'm sating in my car looking at Salz Mill on Victoria Road. So I nipped out to grab a sandwich from the sandwich shop on Victoria Road, opposite Salzmill and heard the story. So my story won't be Stewart's, but I think it's quite a good anyway. I'm sure it So a few years ago, I was asked to go and survey a house to carry out jobs in there the work that I do and I was given the name of a French chap to go and meet as I get to this house on the east coast of Yorkshire French guy answered a life I can't remember his name it says, you're com comeing next expect him me I walks into the house There's a big post on the wall of It was Jean Pierre It was Jean Pierre G Salvest de Lima that you m I think That same Jean Pierre, absolutely. So there's a big post on the wall of David Hogner So they walk past this poster following Jean Per and that's David Hopkin. And he sort of looked to me a bit strange. and I went into the lounge and sat down And who walked in David Hognener. I thought you're going to say Michael Flatley then? Yeah, no. But So absolutely, as you can imagine absolutely gobssmacked.. So I'm from Sipplay Yeah. so David' very well known around these parts. and so I then get on to do what I need to do in the house and go to the studio and in the studio, very similar to maybe what the chat was mentioned earlier, is halfway through some works. And one of the works I think is the right one is there's a big painting that he did of He set some trees out, and then he cut the pin into three pieces And I'm pretty certain he was actually doing that in the time that I was in his house in his studio. Whilst I was there in the studio that Stuart mentioned, if he's listening to the Stewart, it's probably nodding his head because he'llt know what I'm talking about. But then I bumped into David as I'm walking around and he said and very the same as well he picked up on the accor and he says, Where are you from man? I said I'm from Shipay and it went amazing. He says, Do you mind having a cup of tea before you leave? Ohes Yeah. So again, what Stewart said where he was having a cup of tea with a little table, he'd se in his teaching and he had a little table and they made a cup of tea and we sat down And he must have smoked about a hundred cigarettes James whilst we were there because he was a heavy smoker, we all all know. And he kept saying, I can't go back. It's not as easy for me to go back nowadays. He says, but is this still there? Is that still there? And we're talking about places around Chipley and salt air that he remembers. And I' going, yeah, that's, I know that went years ago that David. So I must have spent two hours in his kitchen drinking tea talking about shippling salt air with and this is right. Thank you very much for your time How incredible. How absolutely incredible. How did you know about him? Was wasas it because he was a local lad and you'd been to Saltter or. So the salt' mills out on my doorstep. and I tcked my dorghter around there when we were kids as a young kid, you know being around there myself and if you're familiar with this ineck of the woods, it's by a park called Roberts Park, which is in the village of Titus, which is Titus Soul. It's the Titus Soul. Yeah. So this is my hometown So it's always been there. But to actually sit in that guy's room and I've never been stred, I've never starred it Sorry, Jents. But When that guy walked in, I was absolutely gosmacked, amazed. But we're a nice guy. so that's my story. Do you know what I'm thinking now? I'm wondering whether my dad had any encounters with him because my dad's first ever job was on the Sipley Times and Express Oh yeah, well, yees, remember that which isnt of course which isn't around anymore. likeike an awful lot of local papers, but I' never I don't think I've had a conversation with them about a potential David Hockney connection, but it's not it's not beyond possibility, is it Well a lovely story. And what were you surveying it for? wereere they putting it on the market No, no, some a system to fit inside that. It was a fire alarm. Oh, okie dokeie. Okay. well yeah. Cky. very important. me enough. sorry.. That shhip with Times and Express, I used to deliver that as a paperboy as a teenager. Did you really? What year would that be nineteen eighty two, nineteen eighty one? My dad was long gone by then. I think he'd been there in the I mean he'd have been there in the late fifties or something. He used to call it the shiply timimes and distress Well sh the Cen Express office is now a little bar. Is it?? Oh God. I've got a gigg in leads in October. I shall try and pop in and raise a glass to both of you, Gary. Lovely stuff care whoa. twelve forty is the time. Absolutely beautiful stuff and interesting that the two personal encounters with him that we've heard bothoth involve a real interest in the people he was meeting, even as one of the most instantly recognizable artists on the planet whether it was a photograph' assistant in Holland Park or a fire alarm engineer in West Yorkshire, he wanted to know more about both of them, wanted to find out more about both of them. this lovely sounding man. Anne is in Wilsdon Green, Anne what would you like to say? Well, I was fortunate in that in nineteen seventy six, when his first book David Hogney by David Hockney had a civic reception in the Card Tright hall in Bradford. I was the Bradford reporter for BBC Radio Leads. And I loved his work. And so I got permission to spend a day with him both at the civic reception, meet his parents and whatever and made a program forty five minute programe about him. And basically, can I just say one thing to start with?ake all the time in the world, you've all the time in the world. When a very dear friend whose name I can't remember. I'm in my mid eighties now, A very dear friend of his died. I've always collected quotes and I've got this one, I got my quotes out and he said David Hockney said after something that really hit him hard and we've all had deaths like that. Life is a celebration. However bad life gets put some joy there Oh Well he did that, didn't he? To me, he was a wonderful person. I loved his art. It was very versatile and as some most of your previous callers have said, of course, it's his colour, his versatility. But he was a lovely person. and of course, the other thing I would say is that in ' seventy six, the whole homoseosexual thing I used to cover Bradford Council as well. because I was a Bradford reporter, I did Bradford City football. I was there well he went up in the division. I covered it. I was one of the first women to anyway. David Hockney, the point is that the council had a big debate, I covered the debate on whether the gay liberation could actually use one of their premises for a conference. And one of the councillors, and obviously I can't remember the names now. I wrote a poem that was the year ' seventy six. They made a decision in Bradford Council. None of these lepers, that was the word you in our city, they pollute the children And so that well known homosexual organization was refused. but that was the year that David Hockney, famous son, was awarded a civic reception. When asked about it, I mean in fact, at the time, the chairwoman of the relevant committee said, Ah, but he's a famous painter So they don't mean him. And the thing is his parents who were wonderful. and I mean he did lots of beautiful paintings of his mum and whatever. He's very close to his sister as well, Kate, I think That's right. And his brother, of course, Paul, I don't know he was mayor of Bradford. so of course That's how I got very much access.es. because of course Paul was anyhow. but the point is his parents, you know, were ordinary people And I remember asking his mother, you how she felt about avid being gay because at the time, you know people nineteen seventy six were still in the dark ages, right Absolutely.as it No, no, no notite. We bec came in England sixty eight because I chaired Sir John Wolf and anyway, there's so many stories. You' led a life, haven't you? have The point is his mum still see her now, especially with all his paintings of her. And she said, oh, well, yes, but he's our son, He's our son. We love him he's our son because they were quite religious. So I mean He I think his work appeals you know, think of his outp stuff and he did Bring joy to people. Joy is the right word. It's exactly the right word. Tell us again that quote Life is a celebration however bad life gets, put some joy there. You wantonorise memory and thank you. Oh And can I justes of course Before I go. I've been listening to you for a while. I used to do years of phon ins. and basically, I really, really enjoy and I've been tempted so many times to ring in particularly about what's going on in Gaza. But when I got in from doing mundane thing, my shop and heard that David had died. And I've got as I say, about ten twelve books I thought actually. todayoday's the day Yeahes but thank you for the joy and interest and Thank. Youive I was ashamed to be a journalist because of what is going on in the mainstream media in this country, and you have reignited my belief in journalism Bimy. Well, you've just brought some joy into my life, An, so thank you Thank And I'll continue listening wonderfully you've got someomebody who was drawn by him I And I was a day, e? And he was so we had lunch and I mean, he was so approachable. It had no side to him. He was a wonderful man and I'm very sorry he' died but I have of his all Wellell I've got you. So what did you say your involvement in the Wolfenden Committee was I wasn't in the committee. It was ancoing time the time. No, was a student and there was funny enough, I'm now a secularist totally, but I was a student, Christian Mo, used to have meetings in the University of London Union to discuss the topic. Got it. And basically I was chairing a meeting with him which you won't believe this I was called to the side to a phone And it's fun of like your researcher actually did, know you have to ask a question to check the validity of what the person is saying. And they said so the meeting was about making homosexuality legal. It was since sixty four. was it you'll be able to give me the date, I think it's sixty four. And basically, because we felt very strongly that it should be, and I was called to the side The person said Basically it's on wruters, but President Kennedy's just been shocked.. And I said, Oh, look, I've got several hundred people here Sir John Wolfin. and how can I believe you? And again, she said, Oh, know I'm ringing from the BBC. Anyway So you get in a hurry, That's burning in your memory. November sixty three, it would have been I think. Y. I was going to say sixty four. And the point is Obviously, we were halfway through it the meeting but we Everybody stopped it because Yes, of course. It was.f. Have you published a memoir? hurry off. Thank you. James I love the way that from your skills, you go from laughing It's very serious nok. Thank you so much. Lave, I'm sure the phones are buzzing with other people who have hocy stores. Don't worry about them. I've got to do the break though. You know how it worked. Well, you don't actually work for the BBC. you never had to. You've never had to do commercial breaks, but we do. Thank you so much for everything you said. especially the bits about me. Thank you twelve fifty two is the time. I got some other stuff I have to get through, but what an hour. an extraordinary privilege it is sometimes to do this job. I just want to give a shout out to my mate Michael Holt, the hitman Holt. thirty years he's been a professional snooker player yesterday. He got his first ever maximum, one hundred forty seven if you didn't know Well qualifying for the China openp. It's a bit unfair of one of the sports websites to describe him and Jimmy White as fellow veterans. He might have been doing it for thirty years, but he's still quite a lot younger than Jimmy. But there you go. well done, Michael. That is an extraordinary result. six one victory in that round as well, but thirty year career before It's an inspiration to us all, right? Just keep on Keep on keeping on and it will happen. And I also wanted to mention Kevin Sinfield who I had the pleasure of sort of encountering when I was doing something for Rob Burrow and his extraordinary charity work. and Kevin, of course famous for honouring the memory of his late friend Rob and he at his reported day is set to get a knighthood. Full disclosure this week is with Fat Tony, who becomes the third or fourth superstar DJ. to appear on full disclosure. off the top of my head, we've done Graham Park and Dave Haslam and now we've done Fat Tony We haven't done Keith yet but you know, maybe one day, Keith. I mean, this is a story. I don't know how familiar you are with his backstory, but it goes into the very depths of hideous addiction and he tells it unstintingly in his first book, his second book is out is out now. but I as ever as a former raver unreformed raaver, I was just as interested in the DJing side of things as I was in the personal life, but we cover it all in the space of full disclosure. This little clip looks more at the alchemy Oh of DJ People be like, oh my Godd, Tony's playing this, Tony's playing that. becausecause I play music that no one else had heard in those in the club at that point. Cabet de Paris Yeah onn a Wednesday night Albert from Paris used to play like Chari music and Latin music. And then I would go on at one o'clock at one AM and play one till three. and I would play early house electrodes. And where were you hearing that I was hittding that at a great gar markarket. Got it. okay. I was in the center you know, I was working behind the record store where everyone got their records from. So I literally would hear all of that stuff constantly. Also, at that point in time, I was going out clubbing every day of the week. So I knew exactly what And finding out what you were listening to Exactly that talking to the deers ask what's this Well we didn't have Shazam then. No, of course not. So and then you're buying records. Yeah, tootally. And also, you know, I very quickly became Because of who and what I hang around with, people gave me their records. People wanted me to play their tracks. So local Bld used to be an A and R man. Yeah. And he used to bring me the tracks every Friday and Saturday in brown envelopes. and he used to give me like ten tracks, and I'd be like, thanks. and of course I'd be like, Oh God he's really annoying.cuse me And there were certain times where I just couldn't be bothered to carry them and I'd throw them in the bin. And it was like you know that was how facitious and my little brata was You knew a banger when you heard of. Oh, one hundred percent Dould you put it into words or could you just feel it in your bone? Well as soon as I would play them in the club and I'd be like,, this is incredible. Look at that I love that, as you can probably tell, but there is a heck of a lot more to that interview than just the music. That's a facton on full disclosure this week. back to David Hockney, what an incredible selection of stories. Michael is in Kensington, Michael, what made you pick up the phone So I have a cool story. I'll be the judge of that, Micha.. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Back in the early nineties, I was friends with an artist who had one of these really cool art Gall he wast in his workshop in one of these old warehouse buildings in Jersey City, opposite Manhattan.. In the nineties, it was totally abandoned. It was a terrible area. and he would create art by making sculptures from debris. So he's going through the debris behind his warehouse where all these artists people lived And he found a harkneing and he the Harkney and he sold the Harkney and he funded a clinic in India in one of the poorest districts in India To this day, that clinic is one of the few clinics, if not the only one that serves that district of villages So David Hockney, unbeknownst to him funded a health clinic in India, which I thought was really cool. That's incredible and it's still there now. go there Your friend was a remarkable person, then for not sort of, you know buying himself a Rolls Royce or something? Absolutely. and he has devoted his life to that kind of philanthropy. So I thought it was very cool. That's a beautiful story. And you're absolutely right. it is cool It's extremely cool. Thank you, Michael. I think we could squeeze in one more caller today. Niicola is in West Hamstad. Niicola, what would you like to say? Oh, thanks for having me on. I want to pay tribute to this great man. I told your researcher that he was very important to me when I was at art school in the sixties.es because I was at St. Martin's a bit later than him, he'd been at the Royal College of Art. But what he did that was so significant was summed up by the guy in the background of your amazing caller talking about being drawa, the guy saying the blke who paints boys He did. he painted his own life as a gay man. He painted his boyfriends, he drew them He made his life his lifelong subject That was a wonderful revelation for me as a young arts student because I was able then to think, yeah, can I can make my own life my subject. And that was very important. And you did. And he showed the way. He showed the way he gave validation to that, which was then, you know, it was all about academic and abstract expressionism and you know, Making your own life the subject of your art was a little bit, you know considered. No I'm so glad you were listening today. I never would have got that insight without you. And of course it speaks to the absolute heart of him and his work and his appeal And it makes him a pioneer as well, of course. Yes. And the other thing was he was totally himself And that was his success. He became very successful from a very early age He went off to America. He was already being represented by galleries, having shows. you know, and you thought, wow And he was an art star. was he was a society figure. He was photographed. he was st.. loveovely syatout his life right And I mean I don't use the word iconic very often for a reason because then I can use it to the N's degree on a day like today, N truly iconic, both but professionally and personally. thank you so much. Well an extxtraordinary hour. I'm going to end it given that there's such lovely feelings in the room with a little message to Janet Davis, who's currently recovering from a stroke in Winchester Hospital And her friend Wendy tells me that you are my biggest fan Janet, Although there is an awful lot of competition for that title. you can have it for today. and I wish you a full and speedy recovery, Janet. Stay safe If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global player or the LBC app where you can stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions A range of podcasts, including Factony on full disclosure. So do download the official LBCF for free from your app store. Now Simon Mark' still in the chair for Tom Swarbrick today, but now it's time for Sheila Fe. This has been a Gobal Player original production.