Climate change denial and misinformation

This is a Global Player original podcast It is three minutes after ten and it is, I suppose a mark of shame, perhaps, or certainly it's a little embarrassing that we turn our attention to a Scottish politician because she finds herself in So much bother in so much trouble. You often tell me off for not paying a little bit more attention to Matters political in Scotland and indeed in Wales and Northern Ireland. I do my best. I do my best. You know, I know sometimes it feels like England gets conflated with the United Kingdom, but it doesn't. We talk about UK issues because they involve everybody. but I do acknowledge that it might sound a little bit Rum, if you're north of the border that we are turning our attention to this story because of the continuing fallout that Nicolas Durgeon finds herself facing. And I'd like if I may to have a completely open and frank conversation about this There's a little bit of me that U I can' kind of tiny little bit uncomfortable having a conversation that hinges basically on the question of whether or not you believe somebody And yet it occurs to me that with some political figures from the recent past, I've got no problem whatsoever casting aspersions on people's honesty or integrity. Peter Mandelson, if you're coming from the left, Boris Johnson, if you're coming from the right, although I don't think they've got a great deal in common, except a slightly strained relationship with the truth. And yet I don't know whether it is a sort of innate Is there such a thing as benign sexism, do you think? So if you are minded to treat a woman differently from a man because you were raised to open doors and have a slightly higher standard of Behavior when dealing with women than you do with men. Would that kick in? Would that explain it I don't want to call a woman a liar, but then again, you know you look at some of the female politicians who've polluted public discourse in this country in recent years, I've never really struggled to be Um God forbid, outspoken Aout them, but u'm But yeah, so I'm guarding against that. I mean, fill your boots. Tell me why you don't believe her. This is a story that the more you look at it, the more extraordinary it becomes It is absolutely breathtaking that you can have a leader of a major political party in this country. who is married to a man who is stealing from that party hundreds of thousands of pounds and spending them on Everything from video games to coffee machines to motor homes. and Volkswagen Golfs and I wonder whether part of the reason we bulk at the story is it's almost unbelievable. And that's why I think the key question The key question about is about believability. But what I'm going to do is really hit you over the head with the why of it, not just the what of it. So I want to know what you think But I really want to know why. So I did a quick straw poll in the office before I came on air, and it immediately broke three ways One was I believe her, onene was from a Scottish colleague, I don't believe her. And one was, I think it's a sort of form of willful ignorance. And I said, what do you mean And she said, Well, if you come down to your breakfast in the morning and there's a brand new coffee machine there, aren't you going to want to know where it? I don't know whether I buy willful ignorance I don't know how much Mrs. O'Brien spends on certain things unless I specifically ask And you know, if it's not a world, you know anything. I reckon I could convincingly tell Mrs. O'Brien that I bought the new James Bond game for the Playsttation this weekend. and I think it costs me sixty quid. If I told her it costs twenty quid, she'd probably believe me twenty five quid If it's a world about which you know absolutely nothing then You could probably tell your partner a porky pie, a little untruth, a white lie, and they would be none the wiser. Did you know that you can spend? Wait for it three thousand two hundred and thirty two pounds on a coffee machine. And did you know that Some friends of mine bought a new house and it came with an equipped kitchen. and we were there shortly after they'd moved in and we started looking up how much all the appliances had cost. They hadn't even done so before they bought the house because they really liked the house. And there was a coffee machine in that house that cost somewhere in the region of three thousand pounds. But I'm not going lie to you. before that happened I'm not sure I was even aware that you could spend that sort of money on a coffee machine. What does it do? Bring it to you in bed I mean, what is the difference in the quality of a coffee from a machine I've got one that costs a few hundred quid? It's a decent machine. It does proper espresos and you know, you can see the pressure gauge on it and it tamps down the coffee and it's got bells and whistles and you have to clean it occasionally and it'll froth up the milk for you if you want I was I got it from Lakeland. Is it about five hundred ququid? Was it four hundred ququid? I think I got an X display model. so it was probably slightly cheaper than it would have been if it had been brand new. What on eararth? This isn't the phone in. This isn't the phone in What what ear does the coffee machine do that costs five times more than the one I've got? What does it even do I can't even begin to think it doesn't sprinkle the coffee on the top. Does it do little pictures like they do in Cafe Nero Does it do a little teddy bear face on the top of the frothed up milk What does it even do Yeah the bun game's great, by the way. so a feel your boots on that one would be my advice. I'm not far into it, but it's absolutely beautiful It really is. And I was with a mate yesterday who has somehow managed to find the hours in the day, despite being a parent off slightly younger children than mine to spend a good few hours on it and that's slightly unnerving. Graham has just named my coffee machine based on the tiny clues that I gave you How is that because there's only one brand that Lakeland sell, probably, is it Anyway The phone in is not about various coffee machine performances They phone in is about whether or not you believe Nicolas Sturgeon It even as I say those words, I'm slight, whyy am I uncomfortable asking that question do you think Be I don't think I'd be uncomfortable asking you a question like that about Boris Johnson. Do you believe that Boris Johnson honestly couldn't remember who gave him the money T refurbish his flat. Do you remember when he claimed he couldn't remember who'd given him the money? So I think hundreds of thousands of pounds or certainly tens of thousands of pounds to buy things that could easily have appeared on Peter Morerell's wish list and Johnson's claim, I think, was that he couldn't remember how he'd got the money. So you walk into your house You see a five million pound hat stand? U And you can't remember who gave you the money to buy the outstand. Maybe it was just too obvious A Maybe it is because M Yeahah, mayaybe it's because there is a strong chance she is telling the truth in which case, asking the question of whether or not she's telling the truth could be cruel If she is, whereas with Johnson, it was never really on the cards that he was. wasas it? I think I think we can all agree about that So maybe I feel a little bit uncomfortable this morning because we are potentially maligning an entirely innocent woman an entirely innocent woman. I felt very sorry for her. yesterday I watched a couple of the clips of her interview on the BBC. I felt sorry for her because the betrayal is on a scale that's almost impossible to get your head around, right if she was entirely ignorant of what her husband was doing then he was I mean crashing potentially in the event of discovery He was trashing her political and personal reputation I mean, your own husband. They've been married for many years, They don't have children. Her political and personal reputation is kind of who she is It was so strange when she walked away and now you realize why she was obviously across the detail of this story via lawyers and police, one imagines, way before we were, and she realized her own position was going to be rendered unsustainable by the behaviour of her husband regardless of whether or not Um She knew. And I don't know that we'll ever know for sure whether she knew or not The scale of the embezzlement and the existence of these spoils in her own house on her mother in law's drive does create a really suspicious miasma, doesn't it I'm going to play a little clip of her. So she wore a necklace that she obviously valued and treasured And he'd nick the money From her party, the party she led in order to buy her the necklace. So I don't know, mayaybe you may have ster stuff than I am How easy is it to abandon footballificification at this point Scottish independence of all the subjects I find very difficult to discuss because I get called rude names by everybody. ust not fair. Honestly, you think the Middle East is tricky or conversations about transrphobia and the appalling treatment of transgender people in this country. You think those conversations are tricky. Wait until you have a conversation about Scottish independence. I think it was the first time I actually got exposed to truly toxic conduct and I'm not putting the blame you'll notice on either side But it was the first time I got exposed to truly toxic, truly toxic. conduct online. So I mean, if you hate her or love her And would it be fair to say that your attitude to Nicholas Durgin is going to be largely defined by your attitude towards independence thenen you're going to decide whether she's telling the truth or lying based entirely on things that have got nothing to do with her or all the evidence that's in front of you. Are you an SMP supporter? Yes. Do you believe Nicolas Sturgeon? Yes. Are you an SMP supporter? No? Do you believe Nicolas Sturgeon? No? How'd you leave that at the door That's why the why It's so important. So I say what do you think about this? Is it I believe her? I don't believe her? or I think she's guilty of willful ignorance, not asking enough questions, even though she must have been suspicious Or wholly innocent. I'm at the moment going with holy innocent You know people who are so wrapped up in their work that they'd struggle to tell you what day it is Perfectly feasible, she's got no idea that three thousand pound coffee machines even exist I often get the day wrong and the time on this programme. L how wrapped up I am in my work. If Keith came in wearing some new pumps, actually that's not a very good example. I'm feigning ignorance there. My trainer game is quite strong. What might you spend a lot of money on that I would not know anything about turntables I mean, what can you spend two grand onselling tables? You get a perfectly decent one for three hundred quid. amm I right or not but it doesn't matter becauseuse the point is I'm proving to you that I don't know anything. So you come home with some turntables, Keith Iddenly got an imfids lying in bed together there like Morcam and Wise writing a play. So Keith comes home with some new turntables. I say, what did you spend? How much did they cost? I've got no idea. Whatever comes out of his mouth is going to be true based on whether I trust him or not or how suspicious I am to start with. How much did you spend on the turntables? Oh six hundred pounds. Oh that's You deserve it, darling. You've been working very hard recent. It turns out they cost six thousand pounds Can you drop six thousand pounds on t? Yes, you can. easasily, he says, easily. haveave you Tve six, we're paying you too much. Six thousand pounds on turntables. you must be having a giraffe you came home with a giraffe, then you'd probably start asking questions, right? Be you'd probably look that up. Youd think how much does a giraffe cost anyway? But if you came home with a coffee machine or some turntables M No way, No way did you know that you could spend two thousand six hundred and eighteen pounds sixteen pence on pepper and salt grinders. You just didn't know that You might be aware of Lalique, because you've seen it on the Antiques Road Show. You might not be aware of Laalque, which is the name of the company that made the salt and pepper grinders. but there's no way if you plump them on the table at Sunday lunch, says, Oh, I' got some new salt and pepper grinders, darling. You said say Oh, they're lovely. How much did they cost? And he says, Oh, they were quite expensive actually. I nearly did an accent there. That would not help in this conversation, would it? if I started doing my vague attempts at Scottish accents? And he said something, o, they were quite expensive actually, darling. They were a hundred pounds they were a hundred pounds each And you go, go, that's a lot of money to spend on a salt and pepper grinder. Turns out they're over a thousand pounds each They're over a thousand pounds each And I currently believe her I think I believe her. Well, I do believe her. Anyway, have a listen to this because it's Possibly the reason why I can feel my sympathy u reaching places I'm not sure it should be reaching As part of the campaign, we went to visit this amazing business, the Shetland Jewelers And I was being shown around the shop and I stopped at this pendant. I mean you've seen pictures of it. It's beautiful. later that night Peter said to me, I've got a surprise for you. and I saw you admiing this pendant and gave me it. Sorry I loved that necklace and I wore it a lot and This is the other thing The idea that I would have gone about wearing things that I had known were anything other than what they were presented to me as a gift from my husband and to then find out that these were gifts given to me that he bought with the party's money causes a level of I don't know, pain, bewilderment I don't know, I just I'm not sure I'm going to try. I'm just not sure I will ever properly come to terms with that. And that's why I belie her because to be party to it would be an act of such egregious idiocy, never mind corruption. And I know some politicians have got the front to trouse a five million quid in secret and pretend that they're somehow the victim. But to be walking around. that was the point, wasn't it? Faris desperately tried to keep it secret. He's not walking around with a five million pound sign on his back saying I belong to a Thai businessman the the effronttery of it There's no way if she knew A she would have gone along with it, but I can't prove that. I don't know the woman, but there's no way if she knew that she would have sort of advertised the fruits of his embezzlement So I'm going to hit you with the why, Wh do you think what you think? And the reason why I believe her is because the scale of the offense The scale of the complicity for a politician who You know, whose reputation relies entirely on transparency and integrity. It's just inconceivable to me that she And indeed almost anyone would know about this kind of activity and and do nothing. You know, I'm not walking around wearing the bloody thing. I'm not going to walk around wearing the necklace That's not necessarily a generosity of spirit that I'd extend to any other politician. So I can't quite pin down the precise why O. Why I believe her. So do you, do you think Nicolas Sturgeon is telling the truth? And if you do or indeed, if you don't, Or if you're going with the willful ignorance, then I want you to tell me why on zero three four five, sixzero six zero nine seven three. The other bit I want to do is to look at how easy it is to be entirely ignorant of what your partner is doing. But I'll move on to that. In the first instance I completely want you to tell me whether or not you think it's possible to live with someone, whether or not you believe that Nicola Sturgeon lived with someone who was stealing four hundred thousand pounds from their joint employer. spending it on stuff that they were sharing and had absolutely no idea at all what was going on. becausecause I do. And I think I know why Fishing tackle is a big one. Quite a few men are possessed of fishing tackle that their partners haven't got the fishing tackle and bicycles I would suggest to you are things that Men in particular with women, I don't want to be casually sexist, but it's more likely to be stuff that you keep in the wardrobe, right like shoes or a frock or something, and your husband or your boyfriend's got absolutely no idea how much money you actually spent on it. You'd need to have separate bank accounts for this to work, but they do. Sturgeon and Murle did have separate bank accounts apparently. So fishing tackle and bicycles, a mate of mine spends money on bicycles that is absolutely, I mean breathtaking He can afford it, but I don't think his wife would approve if she knew. He's knocked a zero off. the price of a bicycle in the past. So that's another reason why I kind of believe that it's possible not to know that your husband is spending serious money on stuff that he can't afford because the minute you think he can't afford it You say, whereere's the money coming from? and you begin to suspect that he is Up to no good. So do you believe Nicolas Sturgeon If so, why? And if not, why not? Neil' in West Lian. Neil the West Lothian question. Do you believe Nicolas Sturgeon I'll try and answer that for you Jams. on Probably not, probablyroably not. I worked for the Scottish Government before I retired and I met Nicola Sturgeon. I came across Nicola Sturgeon a few times. She She was a very confident individual. She was very much in charge of a brief. I mean she was the The resultim in alpha And I would just find it a little bit of a stretch the space where she's notock in complete control and had a complete grasp of Everton on? So probably not, probably I probably wouldn't believe it. but I would leave a little bit of room be persuaded because I'm not per I' eight hour. I think in some ways, I'd use your argument almost the other way around and say that because she's so entirely focused on her job, she lives for her political career She's not going to be bothered about asking for receipts when her husband comes home with some new pens Okay. so that's maybe the little gap. But look at the story that's running today, James about one hundred eight toilet rolls, right? If if you you're going you're mayayor Copa, you're going to have to fill in on that one Okay, so in the list of things that Peter bought Yes, a couple of days before she was telling everybody not to go out and plan it by, he bought one hundred and eight toilet ropes, right? no James. Is this breaking news? Is this an exclusive? It's on the LDC website If you couldn't get your toilet door open because there was one hundred and eight toilet rolls. Yes in the toilet. wouldould you know what' say? Peta, Peta, what have you been It wouldn't cross my mind. If misses O'Brien came home with one hundred and eight toilet rolls, it would not cross my mind that she'd been robbing. Maybe you weren't well, mayaybe you needed it. you're not to think, oh, he's up to no good. Why you've bought one hundred and eight toilet rolls? He must be a wrongan Nobbody say, Peter, Peter, I'm just about to go on national television to make an announcement telling everybody not to panic by toilet rolls. What have you done Well yeah, I mean, that's a question about the marriage more than the embezzlement, isn't it? That's like, you know, how can you go out and do the polar opposite of what I've told everybody else to do But isn't this? the thing is you cannot just look at this in terms of the marriage alone No, your phone lineess going a bit ph your phone line's gone a bit glitchy. successful. Now, I said your phoneess gone a bit glitchery and then it finally failed. So the toilet roll angle one hundred and eight I don't think that changes my positioning on it or my thinking on it. but the question of Not knowing is one that quite a lot of people have got some sympathy for, notot least because and Amanda didn't know her husband had gone bankrupt until her own car got repossessed It'sot quite the same It's just the list of things that were brought into the house at which point Never did she say whereere is the money coming from for this stuff? Would demand that you knew how much it cost. And one of the first things that struck me was that it's almost all stuff that you wouldn't actually guess price of. you know a wine coaster for three and a half thousand pounds You just wouldn't think that that had cost three and a half thousand pounds. You might think, again, you could probably knock a nut off it. unless you're in that world when they bought the necklace up in the Shetland Islands. Even if it was expensive and I don't off the top of my head know how much that cost, she would think he'd bought it with his own money Yeah they didn't have children. They've been in jobs for a long time. They'd probably paid off their mortgages and he wanted to buy his wife a present. so he bought her a necklace and she loved it so much. She wore it all the time. The idea that she would do that while simultaneously knowing that it was to all intents and purposes nicked I don't know. I can't quite see it Andrew's incumbin old. Andrew, what would you like to say to say that I can believe that she believe it up to a point Be if she's if she's if she's sitting down to breakfast and there's a new coffee machine there and she gets told you might not assume that you could spend four figures on a coffee machine. No And if you ask and you get told, I got it from ourrgos. The minute she gets told I got it from Argos. The idea that stupid money had been spent on it and it was possibly therefore Dodgery goes out the window. Yes, I agree There's a butt coming, isn't there, Andrew? Yeah. But ye, I mean mean things like salt and pepper sets that look like silly money. It was silly money, but it When you look at the actual items, they don't look silly money. No, exactly my point. But that's not the but But is God you can buy a lot of this stuff and not particularly Rie's eyebrows But when a motor home shows up in your mother in law's driveway no matter how decent pay packet that two of you are on I can't use three. Yeah, I mean, this is the point where You can't believe that Her mother in law has never mentioned it to her because that's the point at which you can't say Oh, I got it from Argos parked on his mum's drive and she says I Well, I had no idea. but there' surely at some point his mum is going to say over Sunday lunch or going say at Christmas When you're going to take that bloody gra, Ms home off my front drive, Peter. And that's the yeah, that is quite But you I mean, I don't know what is what her mother in law's income is whether or not it's motor home money. you're going to ask anyway. But even then a mother I mean even then It would involve asking, is that yours? and her mother in law would say, no, it's yours. It's pzer. Yeah. at which point you she turn them to why didn't why am I only finding out about this now? Yes Could he say could you I mean, are you big on motorhomes, Andrew? Do you know a lot about motorhomes? I haven't got a Scooby withotorhomes? I haven't got a scooby with motorhomes either. Funnily enough, of course, Scooby did indeed travel around in a sort of Motor home didn't he? in the mystery machine with with Fred and Wilmmer and Daphne and the rest of them and Shaggie, but we digress. Could you I mean, if I parked a motorhome on your drive And you said how much did that cost? And it was, I knew, a one hundred twenty four thousand five hundred and fifty pound needesman and Bisho off. vehicle I could tell you it costs twenty five grand, right? and you'd be none the wiser I would probably raise an eyebrow and go in check. thirty Yeah, but the thing is I would coffee machine and salt and pepper sets I think, yeah, well, whatever 's affordable to somebody on his sort' got it on HP. I've got it on HP. I'm paying a few credit. H she ever been up No That's the thing. She's not claiming that is she? She's claiming she knew absolutely nothing about it, E when it was parked on her mother in law's drive for two years. And at no point was a conversation held by anybody in the entire family about why Peter had parked a motor. So it's not like she said, I thought it cost thirty grand. at no point Did anybody ask Did anybody even mention that your husband's parked a motor home in my house? or in the bit of land between my house and next door or whatever the exact details were The thing is I don't think she even asked It's not as if she said, how did you manage that deer? and he tells her albeit a lie and then justays, ye, or right whatever she didn't even ask. So you find her defense credible up until the moment the motorh gets parked in front of that? Yes, up to a point ye I canain to believe it. And that makes you think she's lying now I think she was perhaps It was insufficiently curure the suuffici expression lovely phrase, insufficiently curious which is a cousin of willfully ignorance Yeah. so most of it, you can say, yeah, I can kind I can kind of go with that But for some of it, no I'll say, I say. The mot home is going to be very hard to get past, which is ironic because they usually are It's half past ten. thank you. Andrew. phone lines are open on this zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. I do you know, I'm such an amateur I forgot my rule on this, I was going to ask all my Scottish callers where they stood on independence in general before I examineed their skecepticism or otherwise regarding Nicholas Sturgeon's story, but hey, better late than never, I'll do that moving forward It's Thelma not Wilma in Sooby Doo. My apologies. H's Dominic Ellis It's Velma. It's not even Theelma D deffinitely not Wilma for just tuning in all the big stories live on LBC, but the slightly nerdy lady in Scooby Doo is Velma with a V Not Thalmer with a te or indeed Wilmer with a Doly Why are we talking about that? Well, it's a kind of motor home, isn't it? the mystery machine Scottish people like to say I haven't got a scooby when they say it's rhyming slang for clue. I haven't got a scooby dooo That's something I've borrowed actually despite not being Scottish. And is it feasible that Nicholas Durgeent didn't have a sccooby about the money with which a motor home was purchased by her husband and then parked in the very near vicinity of her mother in law's house. And Andrew sort of shook my generosity of spirit there. and that may be the big test, but Just imagine. So part of the defense she offered up on the BBC yesterday was very much I found plausible. The idea they both earn fairly high salaries, someome of the mad stuff she just never saw. firstirst she heard about the ten Grand watches and the likes of it were when he pleaded guilty in court. pererfectly easy to believe that a coffee machine that costs three and a half thousand pounds cost a fraction of that. five or six hundred pounds is a lot of money to spend on a coffee machine. Um, I did not an impossible amount, not an inconceivable amount. Dito the necklace. They were not poor. They didn't have a lot of outgoing. She was obsessed with her career. He ran the household. She would give him money for her share of the household bills. took no interest whatsoever in Matters fiscal, matters financial And her own words were that she couldn't have a she had no conscious memory. What if she doesn't get on with her mother in law doesn't go around to the She goes around as rarely as she can. I don't know the details of that relationship But I just find it impmlausible that she would know and do nothing That's all because reputation is everything. I don't know why I keep thinking of the crucible The Aur Miller play And all you have, all the main protagonist has at the end of it is his good name. It's an allegory for the McCarthyite witch hunts regarding communists, but Arthur Miller, a particular stroke of genius, turned it into a play about the Salem witch hunts in I think the seventeenth century. Everyone's accusing everyone of everything. and one of the main protagonists It talks in a wonderful speech near the end of the play about all he has is his good name. all and you take that away from me, and you take everything I think Shakespeare has had merchant of Venice has a similar theme. He who takes that takes all. and I just think that her I mean, everything that we know about her would just bolt be repulsed by the by the knowledge. and that means that there wasn't any knowledge zero three, four, five, six zero six zero nine seven three. I don't know whether anybody used the motor homeome or not. I am aware, as a couple of you have told me of one story at some point claiming it was used for electioneering, but she now says that the vehicle on theccasions that she visited her mother in law's house, she doesn't remember consciously seeing it. So here's another Here's another little clip which may or may not swing your pendulum Where the motorhome was was round the s of the house, which is not immediately visible in the way that we went into the house. And it's between their house and the next door neighbour's house. Now I genuinely genuinely don't have any conscious memory Oh of seeing that motor home. If I saw it, I probably would have assumed it was a neighbour's. My mother and father in law were in their mid eighties I would have just No It wouldn not have crossed my mind. it was theirs and it would never have why would it have crossed my mind that it was the SNPs that Peter had bought it. Well if you go to somebody's house, a family member And this is a new vehicle ped in the drive it' somewhere regularly. thing was thing to say, Oh, that's it Oh, even to say is your neighbor and new h Y pan never discussed. Never, ever. never. I genuinely Do not recall notice seeing it in a way that I registered and thought, oh, there's a motor homeome B. Yeah, okay. I mean,'m not quite as clear as I was at the outset, but I believe that. I think the you. o three four five six zero six zero nine seven three And maybe draw on some personal experience now as well. So you know, you know that it is possible. you just didn't ask any questions about it. You just didn't it didn't even know it was theres it seems unlikely to me that the mother in law would never have said when they went around for their tea. You're gonna to get rid of that motor homeome as soon, but I don't I mean just again, I just can't quite believe she's got the brass neck that you would need in order to conduct the conversation in the way that she just did. And remember she's stepped back from politics as well, so she could have just hidden for the rest of her life. She didn't have to come forward and givei an interview Um that is her that is her a good name for the record, other politicians I'm not particularly admiring of who I don't think would lie about something like this. I'd put Kemmy Badenoock on that list I think if she had the vaguest suspicions that her husband was nicking money from the Conservative partarty, then she would go absolutely nuclear on him and quite possibly publicly as well. I don't know these people. I just think you need a very particular and peculiar type of personality to pull off something like this and she doesn't strike me as the kind of person That has it Paage puts it better than I just did by saying she is an incredible actress if she is lying. Suzanne is in sittingborn, Suzanne, what would you like to say I would like to say that I too was married to somebody who embeddled money. I know. I had no clue. I mean, it wasn't in the hundreds of thousands that Nicolas Sturgeon's husband did, but O It's a really weird place to be because I came home, we both worked for the same organisation, but he worked for a subsidiary. Right. And I had a really I had a job where I signed off big money all the time. Yeah And I came home one day and his car was not on the drive, but he was there And I said, Oh, what you doing from home from work ear inill? I've got to tell you something. And I was, okay. We had a young family. This is twenty five years ago. we divorce so it's a long time ago. He said I've been suspended. M said Right, Okaykay, what for? and he said I've in spending money that I shouldn't have And what it turned out was that he had like a company credit card and he'd go out and spend it for company stuff, but you were also allowed at that time to spend it on stuff for yourself And you were supposed to settle it up at the end of each month, but he hadn't. And this had rolled on month after month and he'd been duckking and diving, dodging and weaving And what sort of stuff had he been buying? What sort of stuff God. The only thing he could tell me that he had purchased and this is laughable was a pair of trainers honestly, you are filled with such incredulity that you cannot get your head round how somebody is put there our lives, for family life at risk their job at risk sa nothing to show for it. You know, We didn't have a motor home on the drive, but this was a few thousand.. And I honestly boggled my mind how I could live with somebody He was larger than life. Everybody loved him. He was G fun to be around He was an out and out lier And he'd done he'd had patterns of lying through our marriage. and I'd kind of We got over it, we'd sorted it out and we moved on and then the next year there would be something else and the next year there would be something else. And because we had a young family I just you know, you kind of just try to get through it But honestly I think probably Peter Morerell was a very good liar And also probably she was maybe not aware that he was she knew his personality And that's the only thing that I can think is she may not have known and she didn't show enough professional or personal curiosity. However He could have been one of these characters that he just washes over stuff Just incredibly plausible, pllausible Yeah Everything you say, where did that come? Oh, that's fine. donon't worry about that. It cost only cost one hundred quid or I got it on special That's it, She's a VP, isn't she? She's a very busy person.. She's working incredibly long hours, seven days a week She's not paying enough attention to our home life, let alone, you know that's very much very much her defense and that's entirely feasible Yeah, but the only thing I think is the motor homeome isoe, I'm like, seriously, it's massive. It's not like a little camper van. it's huge And I think no, I think She must have asked a question about that. Actually it is it isn't that big is it is it is more campervan size like a big ambulance size than an articulated lorry You just heard her explanation about, you know where it was p and how they approached the house. Is it naive of me to say if she was making, I mean, she'd be mad to try and the our way out of that. I mean it's so implausible that it must be true Eactly, but also maybe she did ask or maybe she went, whatat ram there? and someone went, o, blah, blah, blah. And she went, o right, ye, okay, not my bag. I'm moving on because you know, maybe she as I'd say, she wasn't professionally or personally curious enough. I mean, I used to beat myself up about things that used to happen at my house and I used to think Was I You mean lookingoo back, you say, why wasn't I more suspicious when he turned up with a new whatever it was, new b trainers? But also I didn't notice anything. No. And that's the thing because they do BS their way out of stuff. Do you think other people believed you. Do you think when it all came out other people might have thought I bet. I bet S' and you I tell you who thought that the son shone out of his backside with his m and dad. His m knew They they never they just they didn't believe me. He was arrested. he was put in jail. He was given a caution. They let him off that you lost his jaw but they didn't they didn't kind of They never really acknowledged that he was that sort of person supp You can't go there, can you? I mean I don't know how you ever go back ono. J J just because I'm a bit weird in terms of my own curiosity, the car wasn't there when you got home because it was a company car and he'd been suspended so he'd had to leave it at work Yeah. And was that the end of the marriage? mean O did you try and battle? If you don't mind me asking Well, no, that's fine. because I came under supericition at work as well because it was the same organisation, but He worked slightly in a different sy So he could so he could have blown up your life Well he kind of did blow up your life. Obviously, yeah, yeah, because I was audited because of it.. So I yes, the marriage lasted probably another year because I because I had children and I couldn't work out how I could extract myself from this marriage and because Unny rabbits and rainbows you know when you're in your twenties and thirties, you want you want everything to last forever and you think, o, I can try We can try it, but honestly, we just kept doing the same thing it comes down to a trust issue, whereereas this seems to have been an absolute ambush of Nicolas Starge and I mean, goodness knows what happened to the man A few people commenting on possibilities of illness and things like that, which is feasible, but nothing to do with what Nicolas Sturgeon is currently going through. I'm sorry that you went through similar. I think you were more right than I was about the size of the thing. I'm looking at a photograph and Obviously vehicular Knowledge is not my strong point but Neil suggests it is a big old thing. as you said, you'd need a C one license to drive it. It's more like a small coach than a A kind of minivan as it were. ten forty six is the time. Suzanne has been there And can buy the idea that Nicolas Sturgon knew nothing about this easily until the motor homeome gets parked on the mother in law's drive, which is why I played you the clip Be if that's acting, then, you know, G's about to be I was about to say she should be in the new series of Take the High Road. But or Tager, I just try to think of a baby reindeer, you know, we Scottish based TV drama. because that is extraordinarily good acting. if she is notot telling the truth, but, you know Boris Johnson could stand up in the House of Commons and claim that there were no parties and then claim a month later that, well actually there were parties, but I didn't know anything about them. And then claim a few weeks after that, Well actually there were parties and I did know about them, but I definitely didn't go to any of them. And then stand up a few weeks after that and say, Well actually yeah there were parties and I did know about them. And I was in there filling my face. and guzzling champagne at them as well. Oh and I gave a speech at another one as well. There were parties and I did attend them, but I definitely didn't give a speech and then a few weeks later. o, there were parties. So you see what I mean? Some people are just really good at lying I've never thought that Nicholas Sturgeon was, but who knows? When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred ranger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done. It's ten minutes to eleven. Apologies are fascinating things. I mean I've got this thing I should have worked this out a while ago. Nicolas Sturgeon obviously perceived as a left wing politician as being of the left. And that I think is why when transgressions occur or when suspicions arise that there is a glee in right wing me to go after left wing. And you may not agree with this, but It's almost as if a certain type of right wing ideology accommodates some form of corruption. Of course they're dishonest, Of course they're in it for themselves. Of course they've taken five billion quid and tried to keep it secret At least these people don't pretend to be whiter than white. You know where you are with Boris Johnson? just ask one of his many ex wives or mistresses. They'll tell you exactly how trustworthy he is So there's an ease, it's not just political bias. There's a sort of moral laxity involved When it comes to right wing politicians and their moral transgressions or their depravity and corruption, if you look at Donald Trump, for example, he told you who he is You know, he boasts about sexually assaulting women. But these lefties pretending to be all holier than th and whiter than white when they put a foot wrong, We're going to come after them with all guns blazing, even if the foot that they've put wrong is as nothing compared to what our political heroes have done I think that's just a fact of life But of course, it doesn't mean, as Peter Mandelson is proving has proved and will continue to prove later today when more Details come out about his appointment and some of the conversations he was involved in, the right wing do not have a monopoly on these kind of behaviourors. What interests me is Sturgeon's refusal to apologize And I mean, if she is telling the truth, then of course she should not apologize. Some people suggesting that she should apologize for the damage that's been done to the SMP. But if Keith set fire to the office, why would I apologize? I knew nothing about it You know That's the whole point, isn't it? You can't compromise your own integrity and compound your husband's offense by apologizing for it. I'm sorry for the actions that I knew nothing about But then you sort of think of historical apologies. But that's on a national level. a country can apologise via a prime minister for things that a country did in the past if it's treated another country appallingly And you could apologise now as Prime Minister or even as a monarch You could apologise for the actions of your predecessors even if they had nothing to do with you. becausecause that relationship is on a country, it's an intra country relationship Whereas Nicolasa Sturgeon to apologise for what her husband has done while insisting that she knew nothing about it, I think would be I think would be would be Ridiculous, right But of because it won't stop people demanding it. Dononna is in Glasgow. Dononna, what would you like to say Hi Dan, thanks for having me. very. believer And a reason a believer is because similarly to your last caller, I was in a similar position. My ex husband of twenty years ago now had a drug habit for me so successfully anybody that knows me That will go as You don't know? And I'm like, well, no, because I've never took drugs in my life. I don't know anything about that culture. And he told me he was on vardc Red though and well he wasn't. So And I think as women though, and I think the wider point about it like aurgent is the fact that even though she was running a literal country a lateroral country. you know, probably twenty four seven someom days and you know never switching off. She still expected as a woman to run our own home and lose interest Yeah So as a woman, you're literally expected, no matter what else you're doing, no matter what job you're doing, no matter how hard you're working, no matter, all the nonsense that you need in balance You still needy band the cleaning, the washing, the buying the toilet paper? Do we think Do we think that if the ros had been reversed And the party leader was a man and the embezzeler was the wife coverage would have been notably different then. Absolutely How can you can't expect him to know what's going on with the family accounts? He's busy running a country. Yes, he's running a country. I mean, look at poor Boris, How was he supposed to remember who gave him hundreds of thousand of pounds to decorate his house? He was running a country? Yeah, but you and I wouldn't have been part. Would we have treated the story any differently? I don't mean right wing client journalists who give Boris Johnson a free pass on absolutely everything. I don't know that I would treat this story different. I don't think I'm treating it differently because she's a woman Exactly. And you're not because you're not one of them as bad as that sounds. But simply put She's a woman. if she wasn't a woman, we wouldn't be expecting her to notice and do everything. But because she's her and because it's not custurgon, we expect her to know every single h. As for the you know, the big mor that essentially is outside the m in law's house My ex husband's I never went to his parents house could to tell you what was there. they came to the odds. So he could have liter ashed eighteen giraffes in their spare room O in their driveway. And you wouldn't have known. Well she's not claiming that she never went to the house. She's just claiming that she never consciously saw the motorhome. And she's asking you to believe that her mother in law never mentioned it. She never said, Peter, when you going to get rid of that motor homeome you've got park around the back or partark around the side of the house That would depend on the nature of that relationship and how often they were there. but I mean that's the bit where I think I would struggle. I don't know. the scrutinon his mother? Yeah I bet I'm still believing her, but I don't know how much money I'd put on it anymore because of the motor homeome But again, what about Peter Mell's mother mother? I was scrutinizing her and saying what did she know? becausecause she might have known everything and known a guy clearly had an addiction. a spend of addiction because he was buying some crazy stuff. All sorts, you know what I mean Like honestly, his bomb must have been the cleanest bomb and the holy youy. but you know, and just char and salt and pepper, but think of it this way kid rocks up way are more home and you're lagh, Oh L to get this? Yeah And you don't, you know It's not hard driveving So H mother we don't know what she said, but O b can all s again, it seems unlikely that she knew that it was his and chose not to ask any questions at all about where the money had come from. So it's actually easier to believe that she didn't know that it was his and I mean, it harder perhaps to buy the idea that she didn't consciously see it. but A ye I mean, this is a bit unfair given that I forgot to do it to all my other Scottish callers, but were you you're a fan of Nicolas Sturgeon previous to this Y. Ia likeked her honestly, the way she during COVID She was magic and I'm a staunch independent supporter. I used to think when a few years ago I was need that much I find I'm still not great with the on healthcare, still not great with education but at the same time actually a bit F six years ago beforefore COVID, I saw An asar W would have been a caton first minister and an independent Scotland, but his behavior lately Honestly, it's Well there's no ye, be careful what you wish for. I've only recently worked out why it was a cs when the Chinese used to say to each other, May you live in interesting times. We certainly live in interesting times, Dononna, but I'm not sure that I want to. I think actually's very friendndly as' one of the reasons I think many people feel let down by K Starmer as we thought things were going to be a little bit duller under him and in some ways they are, but in other ways, of course, they're not. Thank you, Dononna. Last call on this to Fiona who's in Turo, Fiona, what would you like to say Hi, James. Some of I'll keep it short this weeek because the last two ladies had a lot of overl that and they had personal experience in living with someone who's a ingrained deceiver.. But I just want to say I wonder if there's a little misogynism. And again, this has just been said two calls ago, but But you know, people live with serial killers and don't know. Why are we looking why we focus so much on Ver true. I mean that was sort of that was almost a nervous chuckle actually because I mean, you're obviously right. People live with serial killers and have no idea They do. and you think who can you deceive most?' someone you know best. you've got most opportunity to do it And as you said, nobody's asking questions about Nicolas Sturgeon's in laws and what they knew and what they didn't. And we're often blind with people we love, with family with children, with spouses. But I think more of the questions that should have been asked are never going to be asked by the Gust the press. And you know I know through that is what about the institutional stupidity of having couples in position? in a good organization, in most civil serertain organizations, you rigorously don't have couples working together where there could be any overlap of Yes, I agree with that I agree with that that's got to be done. And I think I get the impression that all political parties are a bit like the worldild of West. They need more legislation about accepting huge donations basically buying favors from politicians. and they need it internally and everyone of a certain level and especially in the financial side of it should expect to be audited up to their eyebrallows on a regular basis Yeah. I mean, it should be just I mean, I don't know what rules you'd have without being discriminatory, but the idea that a husband and wife can hold the two Key positions in any power structure that is fundamentally or supposed to be democratic and transparent seems suboptimal, doesn't it It should, and maybe it should be for partners and maybe it should be for siblings as well. And I know it sounds ast stringent, but you know how many times does it have to go wrong and two signatures? Tw signatures I mean Steve was a firefighter. anythingthing that the FBU bought, any union operator buying anything on the FBU's ticket would have to get two signatures on it No, I think ye, things like that, you know see that it must have been in that meet. sorry, you spent how much on a salt and pepper grinder?' two thousand pounds. boss twoo thousand pounds on of salt and pepper. Yeah, I mean, there are other questions that need to be answered, but not by them now because they're out of the room. you know, it's a party structure issues And the idea that the A former firstirst minister would march around insisting on her innocence when it wasn't true I mean, it cuts both ways. Of course she's going to deny that she knew, but the more you look at it and the more you listen, the more objective your own position becomes. And you sort of think, Yeahah, actually I believe her. Whereas I wouldn't believe them or I would believe her and I wouldn't believe him. I think looking at my inbox, and I should have checked more on previous loyalties and positions, but I think she's getting But It's not fifty two forty eight I'd say she was getting about sixty percent of the benefit of the down Five minutes after eleven is the time. I'd tempted to do Trump again today or at least the Iran warar. I wish I'd never made that Craig David joke now, because it's haunting me The ceasefire was about to be announced on Friday and they're bombing again on Monday, as I sort of told you they would. One day it will be true, but that day still seems a very long way off. John Ossoff, a Democrat politician, has said something very clever that I'm afraid had eluded me. I'll play you the little clip of his speech this hour, but the reason why he wants to stick his name on everything including now a two hundred and fifty dollars bill is because he knows somewhere inside that no one will honor him when he's gone So he's just trying to get because you're not supposed to honor yourself Are you You're supposed to wait to be honored by others So even if it is someone as ludicrous as the head of FIFA giving him a peace prize It is at least coming from someone else. even if, you know, you surround yourself with sycophants and cronies, you can kid yourself that they're Praise is authentic, but when it comes to public honors, It's why we've always it's why that Shelly poem, Osymandius is so powerful, isn't it? it's why We've always mocked leaders who honor themselves. who build statues to themselves, Saddam Hussein. building statues to himself. You should you' going to put up a stat. If anyone's ever going to put up a statue of me It won't be met. Thankk you, Keith. That's a lovely thing to say It won't be me If you're putting up a statue of yourself, it is a gesture of such epic patheticness probably be demolished the minute it is unveiled. A statue of yourself putting your own name on things, right? So Kennedy didn't put his name on the Kennedy center, did he Trump tried to put his name on the Kennedy Center. It's such a great point by John Ossof. He's building a monument to himself But he's doing these things now because no one will honor him when he's gone because he's a failed president and a national Grace I'll play that clip shortly, but I want to start a rather different conversation now. I don't know how long you've been listening to this programe. I don't know how carefully or closely you've listened to it for however long it is that you have listened to it. There are some subjects that I do a lot less It is. Davy says it's like making up your own nickname. It is, isn't it? It is was someone at college who s, Hey call me You know, Gripper or c like no one calls you that. it's you make up your own nickname, it's like putting your uper P off a statue to yourself, I like that I'm fascinated by why things move in and out of our interest zone. Well, I say, it's mostly up to me, isn't it? what we talk about every day. And when I was a younger man, in fact, I became a father for the first time while doing this job. I became a father. Well you don't need to say for the first time in that sentence, do you? I became a father while doing this job. The news was shared with my holiday cover by the miniab driver, because that's how old I am, by the miniab driver who dropped me off at the hospital in Hammersmouith or pick me up the hospital. I can't remember which way aroundound it was. D didnn't let on that he knew who I was because in those days nobody did, but this unless in fact you were a London based miniab driver, in which case there was a fairly good Chance He had LBC on quite a lot clocked who I was without telling me, dropped me off at the hospital or at home, I forget which, and then phoned into LBC to tell the lovely lady who was doing my cover while I was off on paternity leave that we had taken safe delivery of a beautiful baby girl And I was doing this job And she's now She has coming to the end of her second year at university. That's how much time you and I have spent together U And I used to do loads on maternity wards. I used to do loads on those sort of issues because they were so live in my life. And they don't stop being interesting because they stop being relevant, I move away from them because they're not part of my daily contemplations anymore, but it's ages since I've done anything on maternity woods And I've noticed something as I prepare to talk to you about A few stories that are around and more that are incoming regarding the state of maternity care in this country I've noticed a couple of things have changed because I'm no longer very close to the story we had an I probably wasn't entirely honest with you about this at the time, because Um because it felt ungrateful takeake a healthy baby home from the hospital It felt ungrateful to complain about what happened in the hospital. Do you see what I mean? So my wife was very unhappy with the maternity care we received during the first baby's birth, particularly with one midwife who she felt was incredibly rude. and I obviously had to walk that tightrope familiar to all partners. of trying to sort of keep the peace, but while siding with your partner, but also recognizing that this and you know, isn't easy. This is this is a really tricky situation and they're the professionals And therefore probably know what they're doing Maybe she's not actually being rude. Maybe that is the attitude she needs to adopt in order to get you to do the things that she thinks that you need to do. but I'm not going to say that because Obviously And I don't know, is that white coat syndrome? I can never fully remember what white Cat syndrome is you just trust the professionals because they're the professionals Some of us do that in all areas of life, don't we? Some of us do that in all areas of life and You take the car to a mechanics and you just believe whatever it is that they tell you, or you get someone around to give you an estimate for building an extension and you just believe Well it's a foolish way to live. You should at least get second and third opinions, but you can't do that in the Labour warar. You know, if your waters have broken and you're in the midst of giving birth, you can't sort of say, excuse me, is there any other midwives available? Be this one's really getting on my nerves. It's just not something you can do. So I think that um I think that the conversations that we've had historically have been slightly I've been a bit of a gatekeeper. And what's interesting about two or three stories around at the moment is that and particularly a Panorama program that I think goes out tonight, the A lot of the people contributing to the criticism are the healthcare professionals themselves So a lot of the whistlebowers, a lot of midwives reporting other colleagues and some of the stories that are emerging here, particularly in Nottingham are absolutely hideous. There is an acronym that was written on a whiteboard next to the names of heavily pregnant women. And the acronym was F O H I can tell you what the O stands for and I can tell you what the H stands for, but I can't tell you what the F stands for I don't need to because if I say f off home You can work out for yourself what the F meant That was described in a resignation letter from the Nottingham University Hospital's NHS Trust as long ago as twenty eighteen. which BBC Panorama have now seen in the same letter Another midwife was reported to have advised colleagues to get pregnant women who had arrived worried they were going into labour to go home with the advice donon't be too kind. she'll keep coming back This is going to be quite triggering. I realize immediately, I start talking about it, isn't it? if you've been through this, It's ever so slightly triggering for me because that actually happened to us We were fairly certain it was time to go into the hospital And they told us it wasn't to go back. and I did something I'm not actually very good at despite doing this for a living I kind of stood my ground and insisted, and then it turned out that the dilation was such that we should have been taken into the hospital and not sent home. if we'd gone home, you know, things could have been quite Quite messy. One midwife The BBC spoke to recalled a woman calling the hospital to say she was in labour and being told that there was no need for her to be admitted at that time. She was already in labour A determination to keep women at home for as long as possible before giving birth is a constant theme many of the stories reported by Panorama and don't forget, of course, that these stories will involve poor outcomes In some cases the worst immaginable. They've spoken to one couple whose baby was still born Um And then you've got The broader issue, the bigger story is increasing numbers of women. this is today's story. Sky News have been doing a lot on this. More women are dying during pregnancy or in the weeks after giving birth, despite the fact that fewer women are actually giving birth So I mean, that is a terrible combination of statistics And the chief midwife has admitted, and I quote now None of us think care is in the right place We don't think that things are good enough and It is gratitude I realise It absolutely is The reason why I've not felt comfortable in the past with these kind of stories is because of the epic gratitude you feel to the people who you take a healthy baby home from the hospital too, in our case I don't really want to open up the door to criticism and that's a mistake That's foolish of me. That's wrong of me. I mean The reason why we can do it today is because Um It is midwives joining in with these criticisms. It is midwives who are adding to these voices. So I think it's a subject just for stories, this, isn't it And I want it from both sides of the bed. I don't want anybody to think for a minute that I am here to malign every midwife or to demonize every maternity ward. because the one thing you can do if you work in the profession is tell us what's gone wrong. There's a sort of widespread. Well, if the chief midwife is saying that none of us think care is in the right place I would like you if you're in the business to So tell us why, What do you think has happened? Why is Kerot in the right place? I have I mean, I don't have it anymore, but I carried long after our own suboptimal experiences I had an entirely rose tinted view of maternity wards. And we were left on our own for an incredible amount of time to the point where my wife was getting really quite distressed And I go out looking for someone. and in my mind, I'm thinking, well, they must have a hierarchy of need in their own minds. They're the professionals and they've obviously gone somewhere where they feel that they are more needed than they do with us even if My wife is getting distressed now by the absence of seeing anybody, they're obviously going to be dedicating their resources to the people who they think need them more. So and I don't think I was being that person. That't That frightened of confrontation or that person who doesn't like making a fuss, person who's, you know, just been moaning about their dinner when the waitress comes over and says, is everything all right? And you go, Oh yes, it's lovely. Thank you so much Oh, soup cold And it's not Caspatcho Keith. Um, I'm ninety nine percent sure I wasn't that person, but there's always a possibility You just, you just working as a pregnant woman or as a partner of a pregnant woman, you're working on the presumption that A They mean really, really well. be they're doing their absolute best And yet there are so many stories out there now which make it clear that is not true of all of them is not true of all of them So I want the what of it. I want you to tell me what happened to you. unhappy your unhappy interactions with maternity wards, just to get a picture of how bad things can be zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is the number that you need That's the question. What actually happenensed I I I mean it's twenty years for me. so there were a couple of moments in the first labour I'd need to check actually, before I shaare them with you to be one hundred percent sure that I've remembered them correctly, but you share yours because they're yours And then the second question is, if you've been doing this job for a while Why do you think things have not got better and have quite possibly, by contrast got worse. All right and Thank you to all the brilliant midwives and maternity care staff and doctors and nurses for doing what you do. But we're talking today about the other ones Oho three, four, five, six zero six zero nine seven three. We're trying to work out how many of them there are. what actually explains what's going on and in the first instance, what happened to you When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done It's listen, do you want to know something funny? I was about to give Robert a right old kicker because on my screen, right I get half the message and if I don't click on it, I don't see the other half of the message. So I thought, God, show me what male privilege looks like. And here's up Robert Pop James. last week, I had my blood pressure taken at my GP surgery. It was slightly elevated. When I got home it was normal. so I'm getting ready to go. Robert, mate, for heaven's sake This isn't about you. this is about the women. I mean, what kind of a man would listen to a phone and about maternity care and start sharing stories about his blood? Oh Oh, sorry, Robert. My sister who's a nurse told me it was probably White Coat syndrome, meaning that due to the presence of a medical professional and increased anxiety, my blood pressure was slightly raised. and I literally asked for clarification on exactly what White Cat syyndrome was. so the moral of the story, and I accept that it only really applies to me, The moral of the story is always read the whole message before deciding to put someone in idiot's corner. Ruby goes a little further. Whitecoat syndrome is a trauma response to, for example, getting a traumatic diagnosis. It has measurable effects on heart rate and blood pressure in a clinical waiting room, so it's quite important to know about false readings I spent my whole life thinking it was something else I felt I thought wrongly that whitecoat syndrome just meant you're more likely to trust someone in a white coat So if a doctor tells you something think it you know they must know what they're talking about. But that's not what it is. My apologies, especially if You have taken my ignorance and bought into it in your own life twenty two minutes after eleven is the time. Sarah iss in wigon, Sarah, what would you like to? Hi David. I'm a midwife I've been a midwife for twenty years worked in the NHS for a very long time, worked up to a sister of a birth center And I left the NHS because of safety practices, system led care, could see that women and babies were put in dangerous situations to whistle blow, whistle Blue twice, which was received well by the head nurses at the hospital. But when my immediate managers found out about it some month later. they tried to discipline me for inappropriate escalation Reputation protection always in any institution actually, it's prioritized to a really dangerous degree, but in a maternity world, particularly so. What were you most concerned about Things like the one of the key things that was going to happen in was I would run a birth center and my women would be made to walk past the doors of the birth center so that they could go up to the delivery suite tri rooms proved they were in labor the only proof they were allowed to give was an internal examination and how dilated the service is. and any midwife worth assault will tell you that isn't the best and you have to look at high behavior and how the contractions are, et cet So then they would g birth in a triage room at least a few times a month, someone would give birth aone because their partner had gone to get a car or get bags or whatever it might be. And then they're birth in a room that is not designed to give birth in when we could have just walked them straight into a birthom. just be the devil's advocate for a minute and tell me why that happened. What someone defending or justifying that would offer up as their reason for doing it So it's about it was it's always about staffing. So the number of mid were always chronically short staffed. it's something that happens all over and You mentioned earlier about women being told to stay at home as long as possible. And there is good evidence base for that. The rationale being that if you come into hospital in labor early in the labour. we're more likely to get eiatrogenic harm So just being in the hospital were're more likely to fiddle, you're more likely to have interventions that you didn't need where you wake up There is a sort of logic to the policy, as it were. Yeah off having quite a high bar for admission It is imposed bluntly Yeah, yeah. and it's often done on because because it's such a, you know, we're caring for over five hundred thousand births a year. so you can understand how a very short staffed underfunded system has to prioritize systems But this is a biring process is not and It's one of the worst processes biological processes you can then systemize. So to add numbers like you're only in labour if you are four centimeters or more. So you'd get rid of that rule, would you? J simply just say, no, well you need the bodies to do it, but there are so many other metrics you can use to decide on the on the urgency of the situation. You need the training in the midactly, I was just coming to. So that I was going to say what's changed most over the twenty years since you started and it would be that some of the people coming through the system are arriving on the job with much less training than you have. Yeah. We've known for years it was going to be a massive u like retirement like a cohort due for retirement and that happened. So we lost loads of senior staff And then why were they not just replaced by or dead men' shoes if you pardon them p It's not a pun. but you know what I mean? S if someone moves on and the next cohort move up Yeah for who know the we also put off a lot of student midwives by then When I trained it was free. the NHS paid for my training. So we then made them go into de to become midwives and then COVID hit so those students were then only seeing very medicalised care approaches. Got it Got it. Yes, whereas in fact you need a midwife even if your birth goes perfectly well Yeah. close blli at me How would you fix that? As so you don't work in the NHS anymore. You work ri Yeah, I work privately now. So yeah, we can we work more like everyone's image of a caller midwife. That's what we're able to go back to doing because we're not working for a system, We're working for a family And that probably is what the headidwife is the chief midwife is referring to when she says none of us think care is in the right place. Things are not good enough. and so much in life, if you've got the money you'll be in a much happier situation than those who haven't, and not just money, but knowledge as well. to know what the options are and to listen to people. Thank you, Sarah. I'm sorry for what you went through. Bella is in Chiswick. Bella, what made you pick up the phone? Hi James. presresent my situation from someone who's actually in the healthcare profession. I a consultant at a hospital in London and chose to deliver in twenty twenty three at the hospital I work at. Right Thinking, you know, having that background of knowledge, people, you know, the hospital I work at, people that I know trust, you know, knowing the state of intental careout say I'm to go the hospital I work at is a good hospital. So of course I'm going to have my baby there and people will know me as well. So I may even get a slightly better treatment than I would have done if they didn't. Exact Exactly. There aren many perks as to such a safe working interest, but professional courtesy, we believe, hopefully would be one of them My husband was of the complete opposite opinion, why would you want to deliver somewhere where know lots of people know you? So we had a bit of aip about that, but obviously my birth experience, he was happy to go along with it. Now I unfortunately had my waters broke prior to going into Labour So something that then needs monitoring because if's left for too long before the baby delivers, you can develop infection and then sepsis.. So I thought to come back at twenty four hours after you water were broken. I was in early labor but hadn't progressed enough so needed something called like hormone dripping, etcetera to push things along. Now I came back to hospital I think about twelve or fourteen hours for a labour ward bed overnight on in an an and Aal award with just walking around, pacing around on a bit of paris to more labor pe and finally made it to Labor just before eight KM at the end of a midwife shift. And then I'll cut a long story short because it is a long one. essentially develops Epsus anyway in the afternoon and and ually the baby was getting distressed, things weren't progressing, My pidal was no longer working and I had to have an emergency to their insection but with a general anesthetic, whichich is pretty much unheard of. So I missed the birth of my baby. You know It was all very rush I don't really remember seeing her for the first time And then Tod law developed everyvery complication of that known. So I had hallucinations, delirium, the first night with all the medications and the sepsis. I developed sort of IS with my bowel stop working c I was in hosital for a week. Now after the initial twenty four hours of being on a high dependency ward, I was in the postnatal ward You can imagine after an experience like that being on a ward with five other mums, with five partners, with five crying babies with multiple visitors all day and all night, a shoddy chair for your partner to sit on, and then trying to know breastfeed after having been so unwell. I couldn't actually get out of bed on my own because my hands were so bad. I had tendonitis as well anopotum. So I mean there was a day where I couldn't even get out of bed to use a lu in time and because of my bars I became inconscient of urine, et cetera. So it was a really, really degrading experience And the midwives around me, all they kept saying was We're really short startft. We're really rushed off our feet. We can't manage. we can't manage. You know, warning me at the beginning of the shift, please bear with us Should they have done that differently? If it was true But we've lost the fin line, I'm going to get better back up actually because I mean we are smack in the middle of the news as well. The time is elevent thirty one, a little late actually for the headlines with Dominic His eleven thirty four is the time. I can't really balance these conversations, but obviously most people do not have. difficult or traumatic experiences when they go to hospital to have a baby I hate the idea that you'll be listening to this and thinking, o Lord, I was nervous enough already. but we have to have these conversations and I probably am guilty of not having had them enough because of a sort of rose tinted gratefulness for the fact that, you know, we got home safe and sound, even if things were a little bit suboptimal for us, but nowhere near as suboptimal as they were for Bella, who was in the middle of telling us her story just before the news. Bella, what would you have preferred those midwives to do? Working on the proviso or the presumption that they were massively overworked and understaffed. wouldould you rather not I mean it just sounds like they conveyed that information in an unsatisfactory and unhelpful way. But what would you like them to have done differently? No, I actually really felt for them. It was in an apologetic way to say, look, I know I'm not going to be able to deliver the care that I would like to give. W And they delusion. They're just delusion. And maybe you know most of them actually I don't think realize I was a doctor until later or certain things I'd say because You know, I didn't want them to feel pressured. I had a ban I don't have a badge. I don't wold a badge saying I'm a doctor G on your toes And to be honest, it was simple things like not giving my pain relief on time, I'd have to remind them in the middle of the night about medication I realized I hadn't been given w l in pain And actually I just what made me more upset? I'd like to think I'm reasonably resilient. So soon as I was home, I got g on with things, you know I was fine. I mean, maybe not entirely fine, but I was as fine as I could have been. What about women that can't advocate, that don't know, that don't understand. How would they have felt when I felt so awful And I'd just like to contrast that with I had another best experience. My husband was so upset, he was willing to kind find money from wherever to maybe even go privately for our second birth because he was so traumatized he couldn't even walk into that hospital. by the experience. becausecause as a man, he felt he was almost completely sidelined and ignored as well, which I hadn't quite appreciated at the time. So this time we had an elective sedarian section because of the complications. everythingvery went very smoothly. But again, I was in for three days and not being given medication on time, having to remind them him having to go out and ask for simple pain relief And it's because they are just so I don't know if it's just that they're overstretched, overwork, That's the only explanation I can think of. But I also think postnatal care is really lacking and it's something that many women will tell you. And many healthcare professionals will tell you, the midwives are left floundering. all the effort is in the actual process of labor and the delivery.. what about the care afterwards for peopleople that, you know, for women like me who it doesn't go swimmingly for We've gone back We've gone backwards then. It's so strange. I mean, and of course when you get home, there's even less Postnatal care, I think you still get a visit. Do you still get a visit from a health visitor but? actually I actually think that was pretty good. That was okay, wasas it good? Midwives sc. I've had excellent midwifree care I am with both deliveries absolutely fabulous. Is it misogyny? And I don't mean it's like medical misogyny. If men gave birth, the system would be completely different from what Or is that too lazy? I expect it would, but I feel like this isn't a new problem. No. For a decade or more, or even back to the eighties, I think about where I was born in the hospital, you know the maternity care was found to be no. there And these reports come out all the time. There's always something lacking, there's things going wrong. How have we not been able to change this in forty or fifty years born the eighties, whyy are things not better? Well, you tell me I know I think staffing is an issue, I think motivation, I think morale is an issue. I think resources is an issue. For me to wait when I'm recognised that I could go into sepsis and have this outcome. I can't help but think had I gotten there earlier would my bestir experience with my first born be different. know something that you're so excited. and then obviously because of what happens, you're then at risk of all the complications I've then developed So my whole experience could have been entirely different and I will never know I'm so sorry to hear that. And of course, if mean in the first instance, you just have more people, more trained people in position for both the during and the after. Well, they need more labour ward beds to get women in a timely way. I know other people who' waited for three days on an nineteen eight ward, not in the same situation, but waiting for an induction. Taking up a bed and not being able to actually go into a labour ward bed. So More beds, more people, more training. More beds more people, but then I mean, that's the state of the NHS in general, isn't it? Yeah it feels more acute, it feels Is it the same in your department? I mean, would you benefit from more beds and more bodies We are very lucky where I work, which I won't name, but I think we're very lucky in that we're reasonably well resourced. We have our issues, we have our challenges with sort of nursing staffing, especially at times, especially in the winter But I'd say we're still in a much better position than other hospitals I know of. And then that adds, of course to the patients's confusion and sense of not quite a postcode lottery, but not far off. Bella, thank you. I'm so sorry for what you went through. And yet, I can tell from my switchboard and from just the inbox response to what you've said that it is both a common and a triggering story that you tell, Lucy's in Bright and Lucy, what would you like to say Hello, can you just go a bit gentle with me? becausecause this might be a bit of a distressing story. Okay I'm bound to be gentle on a subject like this. It's not like you' ringing in to sing Nigel Farrag's praises, is it or something like that? I promise I'll be as gentle as possible So I've had two late second trimester losses. So sorry, that's a bit wobbly. So for the actual birth part It was fine. I went in, we were I was induced to obviously have the baby. But after the birth. againg, highlighting that there is no postnatal care Women who have this situation happened, and I know a few women in my local area who this has happened to frequently don't get any aric care, any follow up and are just immediately dischargeed back to the GP So my friend was discharged with a leaflet to say this is what happened, what will happen and all the rest of it. I wasn't even given said leaflet at that stage So you're confused, heartbroken and frightened Absolutely And they were dischargeed back to your GP. With all the other attendance issues that that involves in the difficulties of getting seen and getting appointments and getting through the door in some cases. So for one so shortly after I had my first loss. I developed some allergic reactions to the medication that I was taking. I contacted my GP diligently, obviously. The GP wouldn't touch me because it wast medication they prescribed What did you need just needed some to put their arm aroundound me and say, come on, let's Let's help you. let let you feel this. So it's another example of humanity not being part of the process, isn't it? And you can understand how it happened when I can. It's obviously going to be much harder for you, they're prioritizing people who are in medical need. and completely abandoning people in your situation Absolutely. And so when I had the allergic reactions to the medication, the GP wouldn't touch me and send me back up to the maternity hospital because they were the ones that prescribed the medication I was put on a bed in the area of people giving birth to my babies Oh no and whilst I was waiting for a consultant to come see me That's unbearable Somet this is the situation that we find ourselves in Wh ever lost any? Do I mean, you've come on after a doctor. So there's a little bit of me that's sort of wondering if we have any understanding of why. but it is It's not that hard, I don't think to work out. It's a system that's overburdened and understaffed and geared entirely to medical need and also geared to Getting people out of there as quickly as possible regardless of what their outcome was in the war. That's just, I mean, I can't think of a worse set of circumstances for someone to find themselves in than what you went through So this is a situation and I was discharged back to the GP after our last loss, which was in April this year and to deal with the sick note and all the rest of it because obviously after such true such a traumatising experience again. And I had a five minute appointment with the GP to go through everything that has happened of which I had to relive to back pro fility I mean, could they have I mean, that again is going to be the No, they could just say I'm staying with this woman for a little bit longer. and everyone else We'll have to wait. Or even how could they schedule a five minute slot for something that would be obviously need more, would need longer because that was what was given to me And it's just that postnatal care is lacking It's so It's nonxistent. It's not just lacking. it's non existent in some of these c in your case. It' completely none existent and I'm kind of lucky because I've had a psychological health appointment with the hospital that they've arranged and the rest it, but still there was still no medical care afterwards. My babies were in the second trimester, which meant that they weren't No, I understand, I understand And there wasn't even a six week check afterwards of check that everything the healing and all the rest of it from that experience which Would they say There isnt there aren't enough cases like yours to justify a protocol or personnel Be I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud, I'm sorry I don't know but do I You just want to think there's some method in this apparent madness, but it wouldn't be any comfort to you if there was, would it? I don't It's just heartbreaking because I know that other women are going through it as well.es I mean, thank you for sharing that story. I'm so sorry that you were in a position to do so, but it highlights precisely A what we're talking about and B why we're talking about it, Lucy Okay, but thank you very much for letting me share. donon't thank me. than you for sharing. And I sometimes find myself embarrassed by the inability of saying anything helpful or encouraging positive at the end of conversations like this. But as I said a moment ago, sometimes that is the point, Lucy, take care It's eleven forty five When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred Ranger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done It is eleven forty nine. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It's a lot of love coming in for all the callers, I should stress But you do, I sometimes wonder whether the question even needs asking. You're looking at why things are so bad and underfunding and under resesourcing are going to be top of the list. But that's why the report Panorama has about the NHS trust in Nottingham is so concerning because it's not I mean, it is clearly about people. not about process not about resources or about staffing. If you've decided to write FOH on a whiteboard next to a pregnant woman's name and the F It stands for the F word and the OH stands for off home and you're carrying I don't think I'm overreading this or overthinking it. It means you're carrying an attitude. to the women that you're supposed to care for. And listen if That's not where you were or who you were when you decided to become a midwife or when you decided to work on a maternity ward. You would never have contemplated. It might sometimes only take one or two people in a system in an institution who who step back, or perhaps if we were to be a little bit more generous are suffering from empathy fatigue, but I bet that's contagious If you're running out of empathy because it's all used up and you know that some professions are exposed to horrors that Not encouraged necessarily, but They will They will then talk about things in a way that we would find quite weird and possibly quite upsetting, but they're doing it in order to insulate themselves against trauma. They're doing it, you know, do when I was a kid the junior doctors, the student doctors. You' have all sorts of stories. about what the medical students got up to. and part of it was about almost desensitizing the work that they did so that they could do the work that they did and see a job on the table in front of them as opposed to a human being. So there's all sorts of reasons why medical professionals don't behave in the way that we naively think that they should or would when we've never been near the sharp end of a medical procedure But u'm I just, you know, I just wonder how it takes hold institutionally in a school or in a hospital. how many people need to be Bad for the institution to become bad. Don't be too kind staff would say to each other because if you're too kind then they'll stick around for too long or they'll come back too quickly It's a funny one. Hay is in Boramwood, Haley. what would you like to say Hi there, thank you for having me. I also wanted to say a shout out to all the other women that have contacted you and partners. say really brave to come forward and talk and everybody's hearing your story, and it's really important And I hope for those that haven't had closure that they get the closure they need My story is a bit of sweet one. I have two children. and neither straightforward. I want to say that I am all for the NHS, even though I had negative experiences both times. If I had a third, I would still be going foria NHS. I'd probably still be at the same hospital my first, I was originally meant to be at one hospital, reallyally messed me around. It was the summer of ' twenty two when it was forty degrees. it's a hospital with no Aircon All these pregnant women were sat in a waiting room for their appointments without even being allowed to have the window door open because it wass like end of COVID.ight. That's no's fault is it? It's just just it was awful. I was known as the lady that came in with the fan I used to bring my own fan with But we there was one occasion, my husband and I went in to find out about our birthing options and things like epidural and a space that we would be having the baby in And we were literally waited two and a half hours. We both took the day off of work to go And when we walked into Rom, we were literally handed a two inch strip of paper with a PDF web link and talk to go home and look after ourselves And I was like, sorry, what? I was fuming And I actually had an ad. G on. No I'm just splotering, you carry on It's all right. That evening I had an antinatal class and my antinatal teacher is actually a midwife at my other local hospital. And she said, Are you happy there? And I said, no. Because you know you can transfer. like I'm thirty seven weeks pregnant. How do I transfer this late you just fill in this form and that night I was transferred problem was they couldn't give me an outpatient appointment. until after my due date to do the onboarding as a new pregnant woman. So they put me on the ward private room because it was COV end of COVID theyn't do COVID test quick enough put me in a private room on the ward for the best part of nine days. I think I went home for a day in the middle so they could do the full onboarding during the morning rounds. I was taking up a bed on the maternity wall. How much of this was COVID related, do you think? How much of this was caused C? I have no idea. Right. In was september twenty two, I mean we were at the tail end of still CVD. Potocols in place, weren't they? Yeah, it was a bit bizarre. I was still expected to wear a mask and things like that, but my husband was allowed in hospital It was a bit of a mix but I went home Yeah had my baby. but I had something called precipitant labor, which means it happens exceptionally fast. And from the moment they burst my waters to the baby being born with something like twenty seven minutes or something like that? That is corct. And I had an out of body experience and I don't remember any of it. Right Following that, we were kept in hospital for another day because I had Strap B which if a baby contracts it, they could get meningitis. Now the StreT B test is not offered on NNHS and it's one of the biggest causes of infant meningitis you have to pay privately to have that test. So you did. The reason like yeah, and the only reason I knew about it is because my community midwife was a strong advocate to get the task My community midwife had the same ones for both children. She is a goddess and again, NHS stuff, but what they do in the community in comparison to what's going on in hospitals is just worlds apart. U The weirdly, my antinatal teacher who worked in a hospital I transfer who happened to be on shift and helped deliver the baby which is really special But at the same time, she did le it'sure luck, isn't it? Yeah, Yeah, but she also had to leave her birthing lady, who was not in active labour at the time, left her ladies to come see me. And she actually was the one that called the buzzer during my birth that meant fifteen people rushed in. Be the person that was dealing with me didn't ? I mean, if we had to pinpoint prerecisely what the key problems were that made your experience. So So that they sent me home, my baby was floppy and unresponsive and we went back and v AE because they sent me home too early.ight. She had really, really bad jaundice. Thankfully with food and blood light there, she was fine But that left me very traumatized. And when it came to baby number two I didn't realize I had such severe PTSD I genuinely wasn't sure what was going to happen when I went into hospital And it sparked a whole new world of how to deal with the pregnancy. Now we were taught you can advocate for yourself If you don't like your midwife, you ask for a different midwife. Yeah That makes easier said than done Yeah. Well Theory it could have happened, but the situation I was in again was quite extreme.ened as well. I mean it's a sort of drawing attention to yourself. these kind of scenarios are I mean, I actually think we had a very good rapport, my husband and I with the staff on the on the AenA awards. the award on pre and post giving bath. Yeah They all knew my situation, they all knew I had fast labourors, they all knew what was going on and that I was adamant on getting epidural because of what happened the first time, etcetera. And when it came to it, I was an active labor by six PM And they didn't get me over to the labour ward tntill nine PM because the labor award were A on break and B then doing staff handover. In that time, I't I had' aessential abruption And my labor was so crazy at that point. They had to do a spinal because I didn't have enough time to be epidural What should have been done differently? I mean, there's so much to process here We were't they shouldn't have delayed taking me over to Labour ward and that was no part on Anyone other than the Labour Ward. The warard I was on was pushing me. They were calling every five minutes just push me over. And eventually my midwife put me in a wheelchair and took me over to Labour board and said, Deal with her She needs to give bir. And I was then because it was such a rush thing. My midwife for the labour wasn't ready for me and with quite rude And my husband and I actually said, we're not happy with her, find us someone else. but time was Yeah, time was not on our side and in the end we had a doctor She still did the birth but a doctor supervised because she was not pleasant to deal with. She also had an argument with the anesthetus in front of me. It was very unprofessional but the doctor ended up supervising. So I felt at ease. And then after that it was a very streamlined us. I mean It had its own complications, but because we were able to advocate for ourselves. and then again back we felt at ease. Yeah and we're back to worrying about people who'd be less able or less comfortable doing that. And I mean the path not taken is I'm so sorry. I mean, I don't even know what to say. There's so much to pick through there, so much to process. but U I It simple case of advocating for yourself being something that is crucial to all of these experiences. and it's not something that everybody can do. And of course some women are there on their own as well, which makes them even less likely to be able to muster up a sort of response to the suboptimal treatment that you're receiving. And I stress again, you know there are obviously countless happy stories The whole point about the news is that it brings you the stuff that shouldn't be happening or the stuff that is surprising and it is obviously hugely important that our maternity care, as the chief midwife concedives is far from her O your radio On the LBC app and play LBC. Leading Britain's conversation. This is LBC It is four minutes after twelve and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I did mention at ten o'clock that I was It's not a motoring topic. It's actually a pedestrian topic and I quite like pedestrian topics. It's the motoring topics I can't bear I can't think of a way in to That news that you just heard Natasha talking about in the bulletin. I except to point out that if it was the other way round, if the current government had somehow been left with a one hundred million pound bill for the absolute nonsense of a policy that the last goovernment tried to introduce with regards to processing applications in Rwanda then it would be front pages galore tomorrow, as it is, I suspect the fact that the UK government has succeeded in court resisting that call for a hundred million pounds. It won't get anything like the coverage that we're currently giving. I'd love to be proven wrong. I may well be. Id somehow doubt it. But the UK has won a court case that over that collapsed. deal I think and it was a three day hearing in the Netherlands, which is why international courts are sometimes rather obviously necessary. The Hague's permanent court of arbitration has concluded that Rwanda is not entitled to any of the forms of relief it seeks. So a big one hundred million pound victory for the British goovernment as it sought to clean up the Can any remember how much was spent on the Rwanda plan that didn't involve the forced deportation of a single person? to that country, but it was hundreds of millions more And so the idea that the current government would be left with a one hundred million pound bill cleaning up the mess of the last government is I don't know, it feels quite timely, doesn't it? It's very much of a pace with the state of political discourse and politics in general in this country at the moment. So I've got a thing, right really bugs me That really bugs me And Historically, Things that really bug me. are not necessarily things that really bug you You remember Sheila gets very, very airrated about people listening to things loudly on public transport I hate that as well. But some things get under your skin even more than they get under other people's skins. And some things get under your skin even more than other things do that are equally obnoxious. I was talking to a colleague this morning about people being noisy in quiet carriages Something about people being noisy in quiet carriages boils my blood in a way that people being noisy noisy . In non quiite carriages don't There's a sort of level of obnoxiousness attached to people knownowing that they're in an area where they're supposed to be quiet and then watching a football game on their phone or just having a loud conversation. It's like you can see the sign on the window Bose to be quiet And I don't know what it is. It's a psychological because that's in a quiet carriage. So that's But anyway, so I will no longer sit in quiet carriages in case there's someone because I won't be more annoyed by noise in a quiet car digress I'm also weir Obviously And some things, what would be the best example of something that should never have been allowed to happen? but was so widespread, I think I'm thinking of the internet, I suppose. It was all so widespread by the time anybody tried to do anything about it that it was pretty much too late to do anything about it. It's where the phrase getting the genie back in the bottle comes from But I It just gets worse and worse and worse and I mean, there is nothing more boring than a radiophone in that involves people ringing in to say, Wh aren't cyclists insured, right? That's just one of life's great abiding eternal truths Well don't than. There's nothing and also almost every cyclist is also a motorist. So this ludicrous nineteen seventies style attempt to distinguish between cyclists and motorists is not only stupid It's also profoundly dishonest But I can feel All of the things that I find iculess and repellent in other people Bubbling to the surface of my consciousness when I am either exposed to or thinking about The vehicles on our roads that Howard but which are not in any way, shape or form regulated. I don't even know what the law is with regards to these things, but the idea that you can get onto the road on a bicycle or a scooter that has an engine in it or a motor In it Bom around at extraordinary speeds seems to me to be something that we have been, if you pardon the pun, that we have been profoundly asleep at the wheelabout. that they are so obviously dangerous I don't want to say stupid. So as soon as I start talking about this, I don't even know what the correct terminology is. Am I talking about e bikes? I am on si e bikes and e scooters. So round my way, there's a lot of food deliveries going on all the time and Ewhere you go Every time you try and cross the road, every time you leave your own hat there's someone bombing past much faster than you could go on a pedal bicycle. and I just think that we are probably I think we are probably going to reach a point in the not too distant future where we have to undo an awful lot of the stuff that has now been done. An awful lot of the stuff that has been allowed to go unnoticed. But you see, as soon as I say this I got I think of someone I know who has one of these scooters is one of the hardest working people I know. He bombs from job to job on it puts in shifts the like of which you and I have never seen, have never done. And it saves him an absolute fortune in public transport. He just plugs it in when he gets home. takes him where otherwise he would be going by by bus and by Tube I need to make it clear what I'm talking about, don't? It's not a motoring phone in It It's about these bikes and scooters. There's a story in the news today about the victim of a crash being in despair at the fact that there's no recourse under the law There's also no sort of third party insurance policies. That even includes the bike share operators, let alone the one off users of these machines who don't have any Um real responsibility or liability when, as one poor woman has experienced you can badly injured. woman has had a being thrown face first into a brick wall in Carast Salton after being hit by one of these bikes going at full speed on the pavement, but they're not the ones I'm talking about I'm not talking about the ones that are like brand name I' I mean, is it just me Or are they everywhere abbsolutely everywhere. I'm talking about not the line bikes or the forest bikes, which have got a whole heap of problems of their own, where you kind of have to pedal and then the engine kicks in a little bit. I'm talking about the people who are bombing around London where I live, and I imagine it's happening where you live as well. on vehicles that are Absolutely powered, engine powered in and entirely The word I want is impunity So here's my problem, right? If you don't know this about me, that's perfectly reasonable. I'm kind of allergic to motoring as a conversational topic It's up there with parking tickets. It's up there with smart motorways. I know it's anathema to the radio phy because so many people listen to programs like this in cars I I get that. This is to me not a motoring topic because I'm on foot Almost all the time. I do all of my traveling pretty much on foot and via public transport or on a bicycle, on an actual pushbike, a bicycle. I used to like the line bikes until I came off one and smashed my head open and I found it a little bit hard to get. I also realized that they weren't helping me get fit at all Do you know that? I mean I was riding them to and from work last summer or the summer before and it didn't make the blindest bit of difference to my overall health because the engine kicks in or the motor kicks in at precisely the point that you would be I think it is like legal highs, Anthony says. Do you remember when we suddenly all started getting upset about What was it? I can't remember what it was called, the thing that you found in a plant fertilizer and the kids were getting off their faces on it all the time. and it turned out that it's ephidrine. it should never have been allowed to take hold. But by the time it took hold, it was almost too late to do somethingomething about it U This is what I want to know. because the problem I've got is not having this vocabulary or this language of road use Am I going mad Or is this Absolutely appalling. Ohero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three That's what I'm asking you. Am I missing something huge here because I don't use the roads. I'm not a big motorist. or is it objectively insane. that we have people of all ages. It's not a kid problem. We've got people of all ages bombing around our streets on vehicles that are powerful to my untutd eye, without any helmets, without any regulation, without I mean just L metod drone method drone it was. notot after there we go. We got there in the end Or or am I missing something? So I don't fully understand what the law is. That's the first thing that you can help me with onzero three four five sixzero six zero nine seven three. I don't understand who is breaking the law and who isn't I presume they all are. E even the people doing the deliveries if they're on Electure I don't know But it seems to me incredible that you've got all of these. they don't have registration plates on them They are driving around at speed. They're working for companies that are making huge sums of money, but the company if it hits you one of these bikes isn't going to be responsible for paying There's no You see what I mean, right? So Perfectly possible this will be the shortest phon in history and we'll move on to something else entirely because I am missing the point and it is not what I think it is. But what interests me most about this zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is the thing that I always love talking with you about The stuff that's grown up around us. is By the time we realize how bad it is, by the time we realize how How serious stroke stupid this is s It's halfway around the world It's grown up so much and so quickly. that the moment at which we should all have just shouted stop. This can't go on probably behind us So Am I I'm not alone. I can't possibly be alone in thinking that this is both hideous and dangerous. zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three ? Is it too late to do anything about it Is it too late to do anything about it? because so many people now rely upon them. If you tri to order if they banned them entirely tomorrow and you tried to order a curry tonight, it probably wouldn't arrive for two hours But do you see what I mean? Is it now so baked into our system that we're never going to get it out again? So that's the main question. I don't want phones about people driving badly ever All right, but what I do want is a social question. of whether or not this thing is Absolutely insane as I have increasingly convinced myself it is. I'm turning into one of those people Wh is sort of Yeah, I go with the victim Meljw for listeners of a certain age, I'm turning into one of those people who can't even see these things without feeling a sort of little rising bile in my bin. get off And yet, my food was delivered by them last night at a burger last night And Well anyway, I've articulated enough for you to get your teeth into. Can we do anything about it? And am I alone in thinking that we've allowed something obviously? we've got any statistics? Have we seen any statistics on this stuff We've allowed something that is obviously and ridiculously wrong to become completely normal So either tell me to give my head a wobble or Um, Tell me how on earth we've allowed this to happen. zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. There it is. we got there in the end It's something that is so obviously and ridiculously wrong I can't quite believe how normal it's become I want your opinions and I want your explanations And u And also suggestions if you're feeling like it similar things. So legal highs I'd put on the list when we suddenly started discovering the damage that they were doing and it felt like you know, the world and his wife were taking them already But what is it? What would be the thing I don't know, but anyway there you go. There's plenty to get your teeth into. It's twelve seventh Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, HVC on its last leg, If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Ganger, click Granger d. com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done I know what it is. I know why I'm uncomfortable with this subject. The first There's three reasons. Reason number one, I could be just wrong, and it's the fact that I'm a little bit allergic to motoring related issues that makes me wonder whether Everyone's listening to this thinking, what a one backat, James. You've really got to get over yourself. But number two is I don't want to turn into A something must be done, merchant. You know, something must be done while sort of quietly knowing that nothing can be d. were all the things I'm kind of allergic to as a radio presenter. The truth of the matter is that I become Victor Mldrew when I encounter these things And what I want to pin down is A whether or not I am right to respond in this way B What on earth are we're going to do about it Because it well I've done more than enough introducing. You can do some talking now. Melvin's elaborate Grove Melvin. what's going on Hi James. Apologies for myical voice. I was at the arsenal break. You and eight how many was it eight hundred thousand people? Yeah, near enough. That's absolutely extraordinary, isn't it? Fantastic. It. Well done. I mean shame about the other night but still. we move, we mo, we do. Okay talking about cycling. I do think the problem is the fact that the legislation came in after these bikes were in the marketplace and allowed them to just become everywhere kind of the issue. is what is the legislation Okay, so there's two parts sorry the first is you are veryry you are so croacous. Yeah yeah. cararry on. Sorry there's two parts. The first one is the bike has to be ped an assisted powered, which means any point the bike is pro propelled without the use of pedal power, it's illegal. Well that's all of them No, it's not all of them. it'M Like I said, if it's pedal assisted in some way. No, but that's all of them aren't line bikes and forest bikes Correct, actually yeah. Ready Mas.'s All of them and you can spot that and mine off. Of course you can. So they're all illegal. All of them without question. Unless you're riding it on private land unless you're riding on private land. The second part of it is is they're not allowed to have a motor over two hundred and fifty watts They do, that's illegal Now you can only check that by stopping the bike But the police and I see this all the time. I've seen these bikes cruise past police cars and the police do nothing. So the police just generally don't have an appetite to check these vehicles unless they set up a checkpoint station. And that's the only time I've ever seen police checking for And what were they doing? what were they doing at that station? Were they just telling people sorry, you better get a bus home. We're keeping this. Do you know what? I'm not stuck around to see, but I' You know, in the same way that they do random insurance checksbook. I've seen that. Yeah, yeahes What's your interest in it? Why do you know so much about it? We've spoken before we have. In my previous life, I was a semi professional cyclist, so I cycle a not. I also have an electric bike, which is completely legal But also I'm an avid road user. I like using roads, I like cycling, I like driving. and it's a very carefully balanced ecosystem. And I think one of the big problems it about the roads are if you've got a vast number of people on these electric bikes that are illegal. Yes operating like motor vehicles but aren't actually licensed They're creating problems for everybody. So at that point Either you've got to do more to take e illgal vehicles off the road Or you go the otherA and say, fine you have to have a license in order to use them It's funny, isn't? Be? I think I mean, certainly in my part of town, so many of the delivery drivers, who must be some of the hardest working people in the city partarticularly the weather that we've had a backkender last week. I mean, I wouldn't want to do that job in a month of Sundays. but they're not They're not your tippy. So you see some kid go past at a million miles an hour and you sort of have absolutely no problem in disapproving of that. But you see someone an adult who is incredibly hard working breaking the law in this way You sort of you get a bit torn because you're sort of thinking, well, would they be able to do their job if they didn't have this vehicle even though the vehicle is illegal Well, as I say, that's when you go the other way and you say fine, you have to have a license for it, You have to tax the vehicle, you have to make sure it's completely roadwy This is a stupid question today. This is a stupid question. Where do they come from? Are they all bought online and then they're delivered to your house? or are there shops that just know they're breaking the law and they're selling them Originally they were all online. and certainly when I gotline during lockdown, even though it's legal, it was only online. but now there are a number of shots all over London where you can get them very easily. And they are all breaking the law are you know what? No This is the funny thing. You can sell one. It's not illegal to sell one because I could be using it on private land. Absolutely and that's another part of the legislation, which is a massive le pol. We need a c of v. We need some police to come on and tell us what their relations. I mean it can either be the forces policy or it could just be your personal view of them. Is there a danger that I mean And I don't want to include you in this, but do I just sound a bit old and stupid? And it's, you know, you've got to move with the Times and this is the new thing and you might as well be opposed to the motor car replacing the horse or Do you know that's why there's three reasons I worry about you're saying? I hear what you're saying and I think it's six of one and half a dozen of the other Yes, you kind of do sound a little bit old Yeah. but I do think we have think you have an absolutely valid point I don't think they're going anywhere, but as a result of them not going anywhere, we need to do more to make sure that they're integrated properly into the ecosystem that we have on our roads I am Yeah, I mean, I think the reason I've got this weird lump of gristle in my brain on this subject is because it is so widespread, you almost can't quite believe that it is so obviously wrong and so illegal and And the less comfortable you are with motoring subjects or road based subjects, the more you start thinking it might be a you problem rather than a they problem. But Melvin It puts my mind at rest on one front. But it's an extraordinary reality that I'm describing. I presume it's true everywhere. It's not just a London thing, You're talking about armies of road users who are all breaking the law, with absolute impunity on a daily basis and putting us all at risk And yet I mean, I don't know why it makes me feel like Victor Mldry to really complain about it. Emma's been in touch. She says, James, this is really boring and not attack. I mean, I take your point and that's what worries me because I think all road based conversations are boring, but this is actually I'm failing in communicating to you why this isn't boring. Is it's boring until you get hit by one, right Is that it? Is it is boring until you get hit by one And the more it happens and the more it proliferates, the more likely you are to get hit by one. It's an illegally I don't know. whyy? Why has it been allowed to take over in such an enormous way unless authorities have decided it's not, it might actually be technically illegal, but it's not that big a problem anyway. Ohero three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is the number you need John's in Nun Eton John What would you like to say? Hello James. Hello Iy down, my friend. It's very boring. It can't be both. It can't be exciting and boring at the same time, John. That's physically impossible G on Oh, well, yes. Well let's start from this. I think the electric vehicles, cars, scooters, bikes, motorbikes, mopez, they're absolutely brilliant. They're quiet, they're clean, you know, they're absolutely. They'reegal are they They are mostly illegal as well. You can't be in favor of illegal things. Well, the point is, well let's make them make them legal. The trouble is always and there's a number of other examples which you're asking for where were just way, way behind with the legality and the enforcement of any law to do with these things.. We have to wait until it's all been thrown out into the public. the technology is so mounted to the public And we love it, we use it, and then there's no regulation. Yeah This is the thing that interests me most actually. this idea that my reaction to it is just completely out of filter with the reality of it. I'm kind of conjuring up a mythical threat. that is simply born of the fact that it's both new and unregulated, but actually the threat is close to non existent Yeah. the trouble is in the end that there will be people who will exploit that and use it for criminal purposes or whatever But you see, I mean we had in our main road here two lads on electric bikes, mopeds really, with throttles. That's the point. They have throttles. They're not pedal assisted, they're throttle driven. But are you defending those as well No Well, if they were properly used, they're like me pedes or motorbikes are the same sort of thing But these two lads were just doing wheelies down the m. No, I don't care about that. As I said, I don't want conversations about antisocial behaviour. I'm interested I'm interested in the technology and whether or not we should be sitting on it stamping down on it or whether or not and I mean, look, I'll be honest with you, John. I' this is an entirely vanity based Inquiry this phone in. I just want to know whether or not I'm actually right. to feel the way that I do or silly And so far in this conversation, I'm not sure what your answer to that question is Well, I think you're dead right. We've just got to regulate them better so that we can make them safer and purposeful. have we gotten to a place How on earth have we got to a place where I can't I mean, I'm not exaggerating. I don't know what it's like in Nun Eaton, but if I walk to Morrison's, which is I don't know, four hundred yards from my front door, I'll see twenty Re ye. Well well, maybe not every day. I'll see ten There'll be five parked outside loading up with groceries to take somewhere else. There'll be a couple going past They are absolutely everywhere. I don't understand how something that everybody knows is illegal has taken such a stranglehold on our streets Because the trouble is as well, the police can't catch them. How do they you see one whizzing by, What do you do? What do the police do? They can't run after them. They can't change me all over. I mean o, so so it is just a new reality that's never going to change and is Well it's the sort of reality which' facing our tails trying to keep up with it.. You asked for other examples. Yes One is social media. You know, the internet now att this. I said that Social media. Yeah. It is It's exactly like that. I mean, the threats feel much more acute now with social media than they do with these bkes. And I don't have any statistics for accidents because who would keep the records? of course if there's no insurance companies involved, where would the records be of how often it happens? Thank you. I mean, that's helpful. The problem I've got is this weird sense of articulating something that is simultaneously obvious and ignored There there it is We got there in the end. It's like this thing that's absolutely enormous and it's smack in front of us and it shouldn't be, but it is so nobody's cross aboutat. just is, isn't it? It just is. It's twelve thirty one. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. What have I got for you in the final half hour of the programm? I haveve got an unhinged headline. One of the most extraordinary unhinged headlines that I have ever come across. It's an absolute huminger. I've got that little clip of the American politician nailing. Donald Trump's obsession with sticking his name on everything and held over. I've had complaints. compomplaints I've had Um for holding over from Friday an extraordinary attempt by Richard Tice to challenge who is one of Nigel Farrag's donors who got a job. partarty. attempting to justify his opposition to climate change. So there's quite a lot to get through and more on this after the very latest headlines with Matt Hewitt It's about seven hundred million pounds I think, Evette Cooper revealed when she got into. government that the last lot had spent on that so called Duwanda scheme, which was I mean the ridiculousness of it was visible from space. I remember when Ian Duncan Donuts was doing the rounds of the studios And and made it absolutely clear that he didn't know what the scheme was. He thought they were going to be deporting failed asylum seekers to Rwanda Whereas in fact the plan was to process the applications in Ruen before anybody had even failed or succeeded as an asylum seekerant, somethinghing really hideous about politicians defending something that they completely don't understand And then when it's been explained to them that they are defending something completely different from what's actually happening, they don't change their position. Oh, no, that's fine too. That's completely different from what you said was fine a minute ago. So the one hundred million pound penalty that the Labour government faced for undoing it and pulling out of it having seen precisely zero successful applications of the legislation has now failed in an international court. We'll have to wait until tomorrow to see what kind of coverage that gets. But I just speaking of coverage, I just wanted to share somethingomething with you from Private Iy Magazine this week, which is I just I wouldn't have mean, because it's in private eye, it gives me a different relationship to almost all other media They have they're doing a thing we do actually, and pointing out that the mail, the telegraph and the expxpress are now pretty much interchangeable And it is an unhinged headline. Worst nightmare becomes reality And then listen to this. this is in private eye Broken Britain faces its most terrifying crisis yet, as things under Kir Starmer's Stalinist government are beginning to go slightly right The horrible news that inflation had unexpectedly fallen was followed by net migration plummeting and the economy growing at the fastest pace in the G seven meaneaning that our prediction about Starrmageddon destroying the country forever was beginning to make us look a little hysterical The only option now and remember, the private eye is furiously impartial You can love private eye and still get really, really annoyed with it when it goes after someone or something that you like because it is the very definition of impartial in a proper sense. Not in a we'll let the liars lie in order to balance out the people telling the truth. The only option now is to admit that we've been exaggerating wildly about everything or We could insist that this relatively good news is the clearest sign yet that the stAM apocalypse is coming very shortly just after this temporary blip of positive economic indicators gives way to mutant zombies infected with Ebola and Hana virus roaming the country, eating our babies and forcing us to rejoin the EU. So yes, let's go with that Sometimes you need to see someone else doing something to recognize that you're not going mad, don't you private ey there reflecting what I think has been going on over the last couple of weeks. You've found us particularly on the immigration numbers, which are good news for the racists. It's not necessarily good news for the country, but it's good news for not even just the racists, the immigrant obsessives sretty much all of our media And I asked you on the day those numbers wereublished, why aren't they celebrating They started telling lies about a brain drain and telling lies about young people are moving to Dubai When in fact, I think the three countries to which more people are remigrating is or emigrating, as opposed to immigrating, were Poland, Romania and Bangladesh But that's extraordinary when the satirists are getting it quite so right. And it hints with the unhinged headline that I've got for you in a minute I don't know what they're so scared of at the moment and I want to try to work out why. But we are breaking with tradition by having a conversation that is about road users. But it's also about everybody else. and I have failed utterly. I don't necessarily agree with Emma's analysis, but I' failed utterly to communicate what I'm feeling about this story because it I can't quite put it into words. It's We're talking about the powered machines that are bombing around our streets. and the sense I have They are absolutely ridiculous and profoundly dangerous, but there are now so many of them everywhere. I can't help thinking Maybe there's something wrong with me rather than something wrong with them. Because if there was something wrong with that, if the situation was as bad as it feels to me to be, then they, by which I mean the grown ups, the people in authority, would surely have done something about it Rod's in Barnet, Rod, what would you like to say? Yeah, good afternoon, John, H I't spoken before Yes, I'm a retired metet police traffic officer. I've served twenty years as a career constable in the traffic department. and I since retirement in ' ninety eight, I haven't really driven up town until a few weeks ago. Right And I took my wife up to Bart's Hospital. a spell in there. I was fine, everythingthing's good now I' glad. But I could not believe my eyes. I went past the police station closed. Barnett closed because I live in Barnet, Whetstone gone. The traffic patrol garage eventually gone. Fitley pololice station, gone. Hgate, gone aren't addressing the issue. I mean, you know No. But not yet, but the issue is that there's nobody out there policing the streets. That's what the issue is. There's no traffic patrols anymore Is that the issue? It is the issue. Ist that the issue? I believe it is. Yeahah. So certainly. I mean again, I mean, I just file this on And when I was traffic Patrol, We'd have been stat there stopping these people, dealing with it and get them into court. them off the road. Well, here's the problem, right? I mean I mean you're almost certainly right on one front at least, but it's going to take Well it's going to take four years to get someone to court for burglary or sex assault at the moment. So The likelihood of anyone having an appetite for pudding and I could find you probably one hundred by the end of it's only twenty to one. I could find you two hundred by one o'clock today. The idea that we're going to add all of them to the queue of people waiting for their day in court is I mean, regardless of what we might think about funding and resources and personnel numbers, that's never going to happen and you don't want it to happen either No,. what did strike me? Did you notice how many there were, Rooy? How many? Oh, go yeah. notot even talking about the cyclists. Beuse I'm surprised you noticed that. You're too busy counting empty police stations. Did you I mean, were you struck by the proliferation of these actual vehicles? Oh yeah. ye, I came there's one guy overtook me in the Hollowway Rad right down the middle of the road. He wasn't on motorized stuff, He was on line boots But he was doing about twenty miles an hour on these line boots going down the hill down the bos like well, it's a roller skate, but like But it's got wheels in a straight line along the boat. Oh okay. So he wasn't it was just roller skating. He can't ban roller skating. This is going the way of all motoring riding on that. And then a little further on a little further on, Caledonian road coming towards me overtaking a bus was a man riding a wheel Yeah, I know, that's what I thought too, a wheel. But this was a motorized wheel with stirrups either side of the axle, which the thing I quite like those. No they like you they like they're powered unicycles. I quite like those. They look quite cool, but they are part of the problem we're describing. How do you know, Rod that you and I I'm not going to lie,ap We might be the ones that are out of touch here Well What is the an age thing? What is the danger? It's not an age thing becauses because I'm much younger than you. How do we know that it's immensely dangerous? Well you only you've only got to see, you've only got to watch them the positions that they put themselves in around high vehicles and tall vehicles. It's not fair to bus drivers and lorry drivers for a start, let al own the pedestrians that they come into contact with. Well that you mean you say that, you're putting me off the topic to be honest with you, Rod Oh well, never mind. No, I don't mean that in a rude way. just I just mean it is sounding like a motoring topic now, isn't it?, it's awful and something must be done. But we don't know what? and the Chinies out of the bottle The Chinies is out of the bottle, and there aren'tough police on, isn't it? And we've got are all those I mean, listen, if every police station from here to Barnet was open, it wouldn't be stopping these bikes from bombing up and down the road, would it notot until you' got officers on the street actually dealing with it, No I don't know. And the other thing I didn't know about Brexit instead Yeah The other thing I did notice was on my journeys up to Barts andbeck, not once did I see a uniform? Now Now in my day, when I joined, there were twenty thousand uniforms I mean nowadays there's over thirty three thousand. I don't know where they all are, but I know where they're not They're hiding from you. They heard you were in town Well, they're certainly not out on the street they heard you were in tos, so they all went, I don't know, they went to Greg's listen, obviously some of the points you make are valid. I just, I don't know. it's just this sense that we're looking at something absolutely enormous That's new and with the greatest of love and respect, you made it sound like something that's not new at all, by going back to those well trodden themes about not enough bobbies on the beat and shutting down the police station counters and if it is just part of that process, then it isn't something that I should be talking about. I just think it feels a little bit different from that. It feels a little bit and quite what the word is that I'm looking for. It's How long can I get away with that? doing an entire topic while admitting every ten minutes or so that I haven't successfully articulated the reason why I'm talking about this subject. I wouldn't put up with this if I was a listener. Seriously. Who can I write? Who should you write to? Keith will give you the address. It's twelve forty four It is twelve forty seven. If you've got Simon Marks withdraal symptoms he'll hopefully be with us tomorrow. but he also writes regularly for the I newewspaper, which I think I'm going to start doing that as well because I really like the I newewspaper He's got a great piece in today about Trump's sort of social media diarrhea over the course of the weekend. and it's not funny. I mean, it hasn't been funny for a long time, but he's boasting again about having passed tests that no other president he actually wrote this. Unlike other U. S. presidents, none of whom have ever taken an approved high difficulty cognitive test, I scored a perfect thirty out of thirty, considered quotes extreme intelligence end quotes. This is my fourth such test, all perfect in capital letters, or one hundred and twenty correct answers out of one hundred and twenty questions asked exclamation Mark It is rare that anyone gets a perfect score, especially when achieved four times in a row One of the things that's impenetrable about this sort of behavior is that it's so obviously pathetic. And the question of why people go along with it or why people cheer it is one for the ages. Anannah Aron wrote books about this Be any of us even knew Donald Trump's name. Desperation to prove his own P? It's not power, is it? It's desperation to be something other than what he is. this desperation to achieve. I don't know, do you think he despises the people who revere him Is he desperate to be revered by people who are clever and who do understand why is Because I've never heard a better analysis of one of his sort of one element of his vanity than that given by the Democrat politician as a senator called John Ossof, who this little clip of this speech popped up on my blue sky feed at the weekend and I just thought, yeah, there it is. off course that's what it is. He's trying to put his face on the money. Did you see that He's building a monument to himself. But see, Atlanta, he's doing these things now because no one will honor him when he's gone cause he's a failed president and a national disgrace Now keep an eye on that guy he's got something going on, but Suddenly, of course, all of this stuff is about trying to convince himself that he's special. If he wasn't such a hideous human being, there'd be a tragedy to this process. He's trying to convince himself that he's special If I put my face on a two hundred and fifty dollars note, will I actually feel special If I build a statue of myself and stick it on the mall, will I actually feel special Will I feel what can I do to feel special I'm going to boast about how well I've done in these weird tests that no one else has ever heard of. If get a hundred If I tell everyone I've got one hundred and twenty out of one hundred twenty will I feel special? And he never feels special The more people tell you how special they are The more aching the chasm inside them must be about how inadequate they constantly feel or how un I mean, listen, boasting about real achievements. is One thing Basting about invented achievements is Absolutely tragic What is an invented achievement, if not sticking your name on the Kennedy center or sticking your face on a dollar bill or sticking social media claims about desperately trying to convince himself that he's special. I love these moments of clarity. Understand that and you understand everything The courts ruled that his name's got to come off the Kennedy Center. and as I'm reading that story, I'm thinking Kennedy didn't put his name on the Kennedy Center. Kennedy wasn't trying to convince anybody that he was special. People decided he was special, so they stuck his name on the Kennedy center. Understand this. Trump is trying to convince himself against all the evidence that he is special. Understand that and you'll understand fifty percent of his more impenetrable behaviour. There it is, that was my gift to you at the beginning of this week ty What Iventaged to give you so far is a deep understanding of my relationship with, I don't even know what to call them. Bob's in Carlisle. Are you going to help Bob or are you going to make a bad situation worse Well, first time callerss' a bit nervous. it's only me. donon't worry. OK, fair enough. I think the answer really is looking again at the legislation and classification of all the bikes and getting them all registered. But are we convinced that they are the problem I mean you don't have many of them in Carlisle, do? U N not many, no So you do see them around. a lot of them are delivery bikes. How do we know? How do we know that they're a problem? Why am I so convinced that they're a problem when I know nothing about roads and motoring and broader issues involved You probably see it as a problem because you see so many of them. You're down in London. up in the provinces. I mean London is quite flat as well mostly. So it's easy to go around It's a bit heillier up here. But the answer is really to stop you from being worried is to get these bikes registered and plated. I mean, there is a method to get them all tested, to get them tested and to get them approved and licensed. How long would that take Well, I've done it. I've converted a couple of regular bikes and put thousands and Wt motors on them and Wh? Why haven't done that Why? because I'm a big fat bloke and I'm quite heavy and I've got a heart condition, I need a little bit of extra effort A thousand wts Yeah, how fast does that go But I've limited them to twenty eight miles an hour. according to what the rules and regulations allow you to do it. to do Th thing is in Europe, you have the standard e bikes two hundred and fifty. watts and fifteen and a half miles an hour, maximum speed. But you also have another category called an S pedalec or a speed pedalc which is limited to forty five kilometers an hour, twenty miles an hour. You know yourself U to four kilowWatts of power. Right. Now without this category Most of the bikes that you're concerned about fall into this category, which are over two hundred and fifty watts. none and you can buy kits and you can buy them off Amazon already overpowered The thing is if they were registered and tested the user would be accountable for their use. So no, you're a genius. AMPR could pick up the number the numbers. Right. So also the other big issue is that a lot of them are used in crime. And of course, if you can't see the number people get away with it It's the bike simply it force from is quite simple. if you don't if you have an e bike, it doesn' have a number playate on it Yeah I'm not so fussed about that. I tell you what you've done. You've actually nailed it for me and I probably shouldn't have done a whole hour on it. I should have just got you on at the beginning. So in and of themselves, they're not a problem. And most of the people I see are working very, very hard as delivery drivers. They just happen to be doing it on it vehicles that are currently illegal. Your solution is just to make them not illegal and to make them properly regulated and properly registered and then any potential problems So I got I have gone off a bit of a deep end on this one because the people that I see are not the problem It's a system that hang on because I want to squeeze something else in before the end of the show. How fast do you go on one that's got a one thousand watt motor? I know you've limited it, but if you hadn't limited it, how fast could you go Not much faster but a very heavy fat bloke. don't stop saying that. You might be a heavy bloke, but you know, you're making efforts to Yeah impve It doesn't go much faster because a lot of it depends on the size of your wheels as well. I've got fairly small wheels on my bike so it doesn't go. That's the other thing I get a bit upset about is those absolutely enormous widths. So that makes the speed I'm talking in diameter not width. I'm talking about the width of the tyres. What's the point of those? those really fat tyres that they have I don't see a lot of point in them either, to be honest. I mean a lot of them puncture quite easily. Well, Jo want the good news or the bad news Gone The good news is that that was a brilliant contribution to this conversation. Thank you very much. The bad news is that is absolutely the last time I'm ever going to be having this conversation That's a pretty because I've got a lot more ononest. will never say never. Bob, we'd never say never. twelve, fifty six is the time. Should we squeeze in these climate change comments that I've been teasing now for about three days? So Richard Thes, who is, even by the standards of Nigel Farris's Cony is a ridiculous human being asked on the question of climate change. This is I mean again, it all began with climate change People think I exaggerate. All of the sort of populist or far right or whatever they're calling themselves this week misogyny, racism, and climate change denial. And the climate change denial is absolutely crucial to it for two reasons. Number one, the people that sponsor it are desperate to carry on making money out of climate change denial, as in fossil fuels, so they need to give the ordinary people other things to get angry about. Step in racism and misogyny But number two is that climate change and now was the mothership of misinformation, the mothership of fake news. Here is the assembled body of scientific evidence. On one hand, all the scientists agree about something, but let's treat some Herbert over there who doesn't know what day it is as if he is an equal and opposite force to the massked ranks all of the world scientists and that's what happens. when you put all of the world scientists Well this is what happens. When you put science in one corner and A blow hard. with no knowledge in the other You can't present me with a whole load of graphs that I can't read. that may well be bo Okay, okay and put this out there. So this terminates now. It's end of podcast. This is ridiculous. Okay. Okay.morry. cannot, you cannot seriously think this is a sensible way to conduct a podcast. We're not doing it. We're ending now. All I'm saying is this is the summary for policymakers. And I don't agree with any of it. And you can't you can't present something to me