The legacy of Herbert and Windrush victims

This is a Global Player original podcast Good morning, It's three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC on a morning where we greet and respond to what I'm afraid has to be described as yet another prime ministerial resignation, yet another changing of the guard Downing Street the ten years since the Brexit vote, which of course hits its anniversary tomorrow, have not coincidentally seen an extraordinary disruption to the Dmocratic order, which has I changed everything. We may have a little look later in the program about some of the most Notable elements of that change, whether or not we're seeing a continuing sort of reverberation from a democratic deficit or whether there is something subtler or more sinister going on. But Kir Starmer has gone and many people will now be wondering whether they wanted him to go after all. Many people will be celebrating or at least cautiously greeting the possibility of a new prime minister or not the possibility, the inevitability of Prime Minister and And you don't know D' worry I'm doing John Mitchell y You don't know how you're going to respond to something until it happens, do you? you just don't like whether it's your favourite football teams manager resigning or whether it's a prrime minister announcing that he's going to walk the plank. until it actually happens You cannot completely crystallize your thoughts, which I think is what we will do first this morning. I don't have a particularly Leading question, I just want to know what your I mean I will have questions in the course of the morning, but most obviously, where did it all go wrong? The biggest thing, if you like I think it's important to remember that Kistarmer has gone because his own party, his own colleagues, his own parliamentary party have essentially delivered the death notote. They have told him that he can't go on. So for all the absurdity of our media and for all the viciousness of people in the labor movement to the left of him, he's gone becausecause his own workforce have essentially said they don't want him to be their boss anymore I'll read you two quick texts that sum up what I'm trying to address. The first from Rich. The loononey lefties get their own way, James. Berham will be in the same position this time next year. That's one voter Labour have now lost. Labour backbenchers will always ruin the party. That's from Rich in Doncaster. Danny who's currently in Spain, however, writes this is a win for the right wing bots, I think, James and the pundits and parties alike. The next general election will be fought on emotions, not policies or facts. As with Brexit, I fear we may get the same result. So two people there both Paying attention, both possessed of above average intelligence, I would suggest by the fact that they're listening to this programme and not issuing Application for idiots cororner, but both convinced that it's all the fault of the left and simultaneously that it's all the fault of the right. And they're both right in a way But the central point, the crucial point is It's the parliamentary Labour Party that have pulled It is his colleagues that have pulled a plug. I suspect this weekend was spent marveling at the absence of any rear guard action whatsoever Kistoma does not have and did not have a faction in his own party upon whom you can rely to fight your corner, come hell or high water, come rain or shine The blind loyalists, if you like, the pro Ponents of football ifification, all those things we've talked about in a variety of other contexts over the course of the last few years came into absolutely irresistible focus over the course of the weekend where nobody really stuck up for him. When you've got an Uber looyalist like Peter Carl whose cabinet career is almost certainly over, prevaricating and equivocating and failing to offer the full throated words of support that Kir Stama was, if not expecting then probably hoping for, then you know the game is up. you know the game is over. So please don't make me be that guy who has to remind you every twenty seconds that this is a reaction to behaviour and the views of his own party. And of course those views will have been influenced by outside factors, but when push comes to shove If Labor MPs wanted him to stay, Kir Starmer would be Prime Minister for the foreseeable future. They do not want him to stay. therefore he is going. What they want next It's almost certainly Andy Berham, but we will wait and see So as you prepare to tell me what you', especially if I may If you've been slightly taken by surprise by your reaction this morning, I was quite deflated, and I don't often do this because I think being entirely sincere and authentic on the radio is the very least that I can do for you every day. I'm conscious of not wanting to come on the radio, feeling and sounding entirely deflated. and it's not a deflation born of disappointment by the way, not necessarily, although I may examine my own feelings further as I invite you to do the same. It's a deflation born of fatigue I think just that sense, the greatest hope I had two years ago was that we would just be a little bit calm for a while. Even if things weren't perfect, the bloker got the ming vars across the ice rink perhaps just be able to deliver a semblance of normality I can't believe quite how nostalgic I am for the days of John Major politician who I was ideologically opposed to, but whose dullness somehow represents a Haussian period in British politics when the Prime Minister felt able to prioritize traffic cones on motorways as an area for major public intervention. Th days everything feels crazy One factor that we'll no doubt discuss later in the programe is the role that social media has played in the toxification of our discourse. know he put up a perfectly pleasant and rather charming Father's Day message on Facebook yesterday and the abuse. And remember on Facebook, you kind of have to use your own name So the days of billy bunch of numbers with a bulldog avatar dominating. pooisonous side of discourse in this country are far behind us thanks to Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk. Imagine just putting up a picture of your dead father and stressing how important it is to you to be a good dad. And then British people displaying British values, or Judeo Christian values or whatever lies they tell themselves as they disappear ever deeper into a vat of bile Tack aan for a And and for all corners of politics are about from two corners of politics, from both extremes attack a man who is simply expressing love for his father and love for his children on Father's Day That's why we are now's who we are. or at least it's who they are and the rest of us still in many ways, dance to their tune So What is your reaction? I've got no greater question for you this morning. Not at ten o'clock. I want you to tell me how you respond as a human being to this story becausecause oddly, as a human being, I responded to that vile Vitriol, that bile and vitriol on Facebook yesterday in a surprisingly visceral way. I really did for the first time in a long time, find myself thinking that God, you understand how all the really bad stuff happens, don't you? It happens because of people you know It doesn't happen because of people who somehow turn up when things are bad or who have been in hibernation it happens because of people you know The really ugly human feelings, the really ugly human emotions that rise to the surface in times of crisis, carefully manipulated, ugliness and viciousness and cruelty. it's there. It could be in your own family, could be in your own workplace You could be sitting next to you right now. You could be looking at it at this. You know it's there And that was my first reaction to the Father's Day post yesterday, and I think it still influences my reaction to Kirst Aarmer's resignation. just that idea that here is a man more sinned against than sinning who had to go, not least because he'd lost the support of his own team, his own team, his dressing room, the chairman, all of them I've decided that he has to go, but I worry that we'll look back upon this as evidence of what the country has become rather than as evidence of what K Starmer did or didn't do But it's twelve minutes after ten, and you know how often I've changed my mind about this bloke over the course of the last few years, I will no doubt change it again So let's Let's listen to what he actually had to say just just a few moments ago outside number ten Downing Street at that Leectton About three minutes two minutes and forty five seconds after which we'll probably take a hydration break and I'll start canvassing your immediate reactions to it with no caveats and no particular qualifications, except perhaps If you're a little bit surprised by how you feel Let's explore why. Here is your' soon to be ex prrime Minister, sir Starmer Qestion being asked now. is not who was best placed to change the Labour Party, to take us into power and to begin the vital work of improving lives for millions of people Those questions been answered Qion my party is asking now is whether I am best placed to lead us into the next general election I have heard the answer of my Parliamentary party to that question And I accept that answer with good grace Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country I love first That is why I will resign as leader of the Labour Party I have spoken to His Majesty, the King this morning to inform him of my decision I will ask the National Executive Committee of the Labour Party to set out a timetable with nominations opening on the ninth of July and completed by the summer recess In the case of a contest, this will ensure a new leader is in place before Parliament returns in September. I will remain in post as Prime Minister until the contest is complete, and I will do everything I can to ensure an orderly handover of power I will also give my successor my full and unequivocal support knowing that they will inherit a Britain that is far stronger and fairer than the one I inherited two years ago, better prepared for the challenges ahead and better able to ensure the Labour Party secures a second term in office I want to thank all of those friends and colleagues who have been at my side for these past six years or so for their incredible commitment, service and support I want to thank the brilliant numberum ten staff and our country's extraordinary civil service who dedicate their lives to public service And when I leave the biggest job in the country I shall spend more time on the most important job beinging the best husband I can to my fantastic wife Vick, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad. and being the best dad I can to my beautiful children who are my pride and my joy. Thank you very much That's when I'd go. That's when I'd wobble when I talk about my children, and he wobled there, possibly the most human we've ever seen him. and I'm going to say something else before we head to the hydration break, after which Natasha Clark would join his life from Downing Street I think having a wonderful marriage, having a wonderful wife at a moment like this must be the single greatest thing you can hope for. I really do. and I'm glad that as far as I am aware, I'm really glad that he does. It's ten sixteen Eeen mines When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Granger, click ranger d. com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done after ten is the timee you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Natasha Clark is I think she I be saying, a relatively young political editor And yet, you've probably counted more prime ministers in and out of Downing Street in your time as a political journalist than some people do in thirty years. What do we think of the latest Yes, James, I came into political journalism around the time of the Scottish referendum, which genuinely feels to me when British politics went absolutely mad. And since then yeah, I've covered every prime minister from David Cameron to now. and obviously now today we're seeing the fall of yet another one. for hours talk about why British politics now feels the need to clear so many prime ministers so quickly and there are going to be columns and columns written on exactly why that is. But Yes Kistam the latest victim. To this, you played his resignation speech just a few minutes ago, and I was very struck and I feel very sad to hear the sort of sadness in his voice when he was talking about his wife talking about his children and the job that he now returns to to try to be the best dad and husband that he can, listing all of what he thought were Labour's biggest achievements in his just under two years in office, talking about raising kids out of child poverty, talking about cutting immigration, growing the economy, putting Britain back on a stable footing He does have many of his allies say a really big record to show for that, but he does become one of the Labour Party's shortest serving prime Ministers with his resignation today. and of course he will technically remain as Prime Minister. We don't know how long he will remain as Prime Minister. all depends on this leadership contest that' to come, but yes a very sad day Kirststammer he kept glancing over to all of the staff, all of his cabinet colleagues, who were standing just outside number twelve Downing Street behind me, watching him give that resignation speech this morning. And so many of them look really crestfallen really to be here in this position just two years after that historic landslide. we were on Air James work, we went Kama was in Downing Street coming into Downing Street for the first time as Prime Minister just under two years ago after that historic general election on july fourth. and the cheers, the smiles, the hope, the optimism that was there now today completely replaced by gloom and by sadness and obviously reflection of the Prime Mister's short time in office and how far it has quickly fallen for this Labour Prime Minister. Do you think there will be a contest? It's hard to know at this point, James. So what Kammer said this morning and we should say that it's partly shaped by him, but it's partly out of his hands. He said that he will open nominations on july ninth and he will tell the Labour NEC, the National Executive Committee to do that. Now It iss interesting that because essentially he is not today saying that he is going to hand the reins over straight to Andy Berham. There is going to be no Blair brown style stitcher behind the closed doors at number ten downowningree. So what we can deduce from that is actually I think that Kamber It is potentially hampering Andy Berham's leadership bin today because he knows that Andy Berham will be coming down from Manchester to London today with momentum with a spring in his step, with the message that he delivered on Friday night in Bakerfield, and of course will do sure when he is sworn into the House of Commons later on, that he is the guy that potentially can beat Nigel Farage can beat the Reform Party But the longer that Kir Stammer makes him wait, the more chance I think there is that other people will want to throw their hats into the ring, whether that is West Streeting, Al Khant, John Heeeley or others. I think that essentially waiting a couple of weeks which is what Kir Starmer is urging today is probably going to cost Andy Burnham that vital momentum. Equally, Team Andy Burnham has said that they do not want him to be in place until just before the Labour Party conference. and that does fit a little bit with the timetable that Kiram has set out today. He hopes that a new Labour leader and a new prrime Minister will be in position by September by the time that MPs come back from their summer break, so ready to take them in to the next Labour Party contest. So what might happen next? Essentially we're waiting to hear Who will stand? We know that Andy Burnham has said that he wants to stand and that he wont trigger a leadership race, but now essentially one has been triggered because Kistama has resigned. I imagine that Andy Burnham will stand. We wait to hear whether West Streeting or any other Labour leadership contender, any other MP can get those eighty one MPs needed to be in this race. and like I say that won't happen until u So we are now in a little bit of a waiting game and it's going to be very odd. Kirst Starmer is now a lamed up prime mininister. We've got a couple of weeks where essentially everything could happen. Maybe we see a situation where essentially no other leadership rivals decide to stand. They decide the momentum is with Andy Burnham. Maybe West Street does a deal with Andy Burnham for a top job cabinet and decides not to stand at all, but we now will wait to see what happens there before that Labour leadership race kicks off. and we have been in a shadow leadership race for a long time, James, so I guess this is just a continuation of what we' seen in the last few weeks. Although possibly harder to say anything with confidence than it was a week ago, I think given the size of Andy Bernam's victory in Makerfield and the speed of Kir Starmer's subsequent change of heart about being determined to fight on Natasha, thank you. I think your helicopter has arrived But there's been a lot of background noise in the course this. There we go. So we'll see you back at the studio sooner rather than later. twenty three is the time. Of course, we won't Natasha will be Well not in the room where it happens, to paraphrase Hamilton, paraphrase Hamilton, but just outside. I'm jotting down questions for later in the programme. What does Burnham need to do? what really did for Starmer? but a couple of things I need to remind you of and please don't make me do this throughout the course of the morning It's not a zero sum game, just because some people wanted Starmmer to stay or some MPs wanted Starmmer to stay doesn't mean that the momentum With a small M, thank goodness. haven not overcome him. I mean he this doesn't happen by accident. These moments don't sort of creep up on people. The calls will have been made, the room will have been read And Starmer's position had become unsustainable. It was probably unsustainable before Makerfield, abbssent Andy Burnham getting beaten and But once Andy Berham won and once he won in such extraordinary style, this moment became close to inevitable. And then over the course of the weekend when the Pime Minister realized he didn't have The support that he needed. I'm not going to say any support, but he didn't have anything like the support that he needed to fight on, then then the game was up. I may make a habit of this in the course of the morning because it is evidence, I think of the world in which Kir Stara sought to govern and in which many people now believe it's impossible to govern. So two texts, both at exactly ten fourteen, both from people listening to exactly the same program responding to exactly the same story. Lisa on the whirel writes, James, I feel sick. Starmer has been pushed out because he wouldn't let Israel use our military bases. Berham will take us into Israel's genocidal war. We are heading into dark days Whereas Terry, listening to the same programme, testing at the same time in response to the same story, writes, You're showing sympathy and sycop fancy for a man complicit in the mass murder of children and genocide, the likes of which has not been seen this century. The only country Starmer worked for is Israel, and decent people see that. just gonna cautiously suggest, Terry, that you don't have a monopoly on decency or the ability to recognize it when it sits in front of you. An old mate of mine who doesn't often comment on politics has been in touch to say, I feel sad about Stara He was a good bloke. but hopeless Most of us are hopeless And only a few of us are decent that's rather brilliant actually I think and hopefully. I mean it won't give Terry pause for thought because people like Terry never pause for thought, but might give the rest of us something to chew on. Let's go to Chester Street in County Durham. David is there. David What would you like to say Well, it was an interesting reaction I had this morning, I was expecting to be relieved. But strangely, I had like a pang of regret So I was kind of reflecting it in your comments. I mean, my position with the Prime Minister has changed up and down.. But he has he's had an unusual effect on me in that like I've had quite the range of responses, you know. And I did find, I mean, I was very frustrated with that speaker. we have to do something about that because that was veryiculous. That makes us all look ridiculous, doesn't it It does, yes, because I thought it was a very dignified speech. And I just it's m me reflect that I think that the situation in British politics is such that you know, I was actually, I was proud and I was proud of for him to be our prime minis this month the way he delivered that speech, how terified it was. It's a bit late. You know it's reflecting on the I know exactly strange it's really peiaked in my opinion just because he left. But Ad know, because you've got theS you've got the US president tweeting overnight and a crass way about it. I think we just it felt like it was necessary, but I must admit, I'm satyly feeling strangely affected by it becausecause I'm not as bigest fan his policies and the dithering, you better to remind yourself of why we got here. No, but I know what's happened here. And I think this is probably going to apply to an awful lot of people who listen to this programme is you recognize the inevitability of it, the political gravity that rendered it necessary. And of course, you remember the things that I for me oddly, the digital ID feels much bigger than it did at the time because it was really popular until he introduced it. And then it became really unpopular. And I know there are a million reasons why that happened, but those are the moments that you can't spin your way out of. Here's a policy, it's really popular. Oh, excellent, let's do it. We did it. It's suddenly become really unpopular because it's got K Stahmer's name on it, I think it's got to be one of the conclusions you arrive at So all of that is there and will be raked over. But I think you're responding to his humanity. I think you can write you could write five thousand words. Yeah. you could write five thousand words about the policies and the politics of it, but you just saw a bloke Wh's gutted And you responded to that like a warm, empathetic human being with I mean, I follow British politics I'm interested. you know, and usually I've got a position on most prime miniss because to a degree is more of the same, you know, one in one al Qa. But there's something about that man that is I don't know. like how does my position on him vary so much? I don't know, but you're not alone You're not alone. I'm the same. I had a big wobble last week when I wondered whether or not we were about to embark upon a course of absolute absurdity. And that's partly because of the echoes of what happened with Johnson and with Truss and the absolute madness, they both needed to be replaced. Johnson N neither of them should have been anywhere near the Downy Street in the first place, Starmer is not by a million miles in anything like that category, but just that revolving door thing feels unstable, feels disruptive, feels suboptimal and unhelpful. And yet I don't think you can make a very strong case for saying that Starmer should have carried on without the support of his own Parliamentary partarty, which is what it would have involved you go. So David kicks things off Liz is next after her it could be you. J Just your response this morning, the whyys and the wherefs of it. For once on this programme, secondary to the what? What are you feeling? What is your immediate response to the resignation of yet another prime Mister? So we're going to have our seventh States won't quite work, but it would be in almost ten years. Seven prrime ministers Almost Is that right? All together now, Cameron May Johnson Trus, Sunak, Starmer and then A An another or A An Burnham at seven in more or less ten years That's insane If were born in nineteen seventy nine How many prime mininiss did you have in ten years between nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty nine? I think just one. Dominy Gallis is here with the headlines It's thirty three minutes after ten. If you're just joining us and in the unlikely event that you haven't heard the news, Prime Ministers resigned Kis Starmer is set to quit downowning street. We're not entirely sure what will happen next, but it is almost certain to involve Andy Burnham, who the last time I checked was on a train to be Eon, wouldn't it if you're coming down from Manchester. and there it is. we find ourselves once again in this sort of deemocratic milestrom. I was right. I sometimes don't have the dates at my fingertips, but nineteen seventy nine to nineteen ninety for Margaret Thatcher. So if you were born in nineteen seventy nine You would only have known one prrime mininister in the first ten years of your life. If you were born in two thousand six you' have known you would have known seven A, dear, I dear. And this is the one that is the hardest to process actually, because I don't think anybody short of Boris Johnson felt that Boris Johnson should have hung on, and I don't think anybody accept Liz trust thought that Liz trust should have hung on U Thesa May was done for internally for a whole variety of reasons, biggest among them Brexit. David Cameron decided he didn't want to stick around to see all his own predictions of what Brexit would involve come true after he was foolish enough to call it. Rashi Sunak is the only one who sort of left in traditional circumstances. and now Kist Aarma joins the list. and he, of course, was never elected. Here's a little quiz for you. Who was the last British Pime mininister to enter Downing Street as a consequence of a general election and leave Downing Street as a consequence of a general election Becauseuse when you're a kid and you study politics, if you do study it or you're just paying cursory attention to the news that your parents watch You sort of think that's how they all come and go? Who was the last UK Prime Minister to enter Downing Street as a consequence of a general election and to leave Downing Street As a consequence of a gender of election. It's quite a good one, isn' it? Its Tony Blair, Gordon Brown replaced him before there was a general election. And that's from someone who produces the biggest show on speech radio in the history of commercial radio in this country. ten thirty five is the time. I've got one phone line am entity if you want to join the quQue of people waiting to tell me how they respond to this. You won't be surprised to learn. I've got a little bit more to say it myself. and I think it's one of those head versus heart moments. I really do. I could be wrong, but I think because you are essentially an empathetic, decent person, you respond to Kiss Ama's obvious pain with sympathy and warmth And yet your head will tell you when it kicks in again that this had to happen, that he had to go for a whole heap of reasons, some of which will be slightly more hysterical than others, but many of which will be simply true not an opinion, but counting. It is ten thirty six. Liz is in Derby. Liz I What would you like to say Hi James, first time caller. It'y to talk to you. Thank you. I think you've just framed it perfectly. It's Tedbvers' Heart because my heart feels sad. I desperately wanted it to work with him. He's a man of integrity. I think asone always says, he's a good man, he's an honest man But I think the problem has been that he doesn't know what his politics are. And so he's kind of been changing in the wind and responding to issues But then people don't know who he is. And so we fall back on the fact that he's a good man, he's an honest man. which actually was very important to me. and I felt that he was someone that could be trusted But the reality that I'm now facing is that You can't succeed as the leader of the country if you are a person with that level of integrity And you know, and after Boris Johnson, I think he was a breath of fresh air But it's yeah, I feel sad. Yeah, I integrity. I mean, I don't I don't I don't want to sort of challenge you too robustly on that because you know, the moment is still very fresh. and it definitely has personal integrity. Some people of course will disagree with that. Some people will disagree with almost everything either of us say. That's the nature of life, isn't it? But it does feel more feebriile at this point in the political cycle than it has in my previous fifty odd years. I mean, personal integrity, but not actually a lot of political integrity in the I mean, the thing I can't quite believe is how none of the big announcements were stress tested before they made them So, you know, the thing that you would say if I were Andy Burnham, I would say we're not going to announce anything unless we are prepared to defend it to the death We're not going to announce anything big unless we are prepared to defend it to the death I think you're right. I think it's suppose intgr.iz the phone line is your debut as well. Y first time on the programme as well, but the phone line has failed. The phone line has defeated us. ten thirty eight is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Just that question about who was the last Prime mininister to enter Parliament as a consequence of a general election and leave. Down Street not Parliament as a consequence of a general election. I'm mentioning that for two reasons. Number one, it's fascinating. I think I know the answer, but I need to double check. Number two, some people will pretend that that's not true The biggest liars in politics will be calling for a general election and completely ignoring the fact that Tony Blair left office without a general election. Margaret Thatcher left office without a general election Theresa May left office without a general election. Boris Johnson left office without a general election. Liz Trus left office without a general election and u And Kir Starmer is set to leave office without a general election. So just you name the biggest liar in British politics and I guarantee that by eleven o'clock today they'll be calling for a general election if they haven't already. I just want to hear what Liz was saying. I think we fixed the line. Liz, whereere were we? Hiry sorry, James. Yeah. I was saying I think you're right about his personal integrity, but his political integrity, I think has been lacking. And I've been so roouting for it to work, but at the same time deeply concerned about the lack of direction the sector that I work in, I work in higher education. And I you know myself and colleagues are terrified about the future of our roles and the future of that And the government don't really seem to have any direction in regards to saving that at all. Whether or not, I don't think that's going to get any better if Andy Berham comes in, I have to say. No. But I think that hopefully what I hear from you know I listen to West Streeting's podcast appearance with the news agents And it seems a fundamental issue is that There was just a lack of leadership within Cabinet, that there was avoidance going on in terms of tackling real issues and hearing the kind of opinions of the cabinet. And I think that's been why he hasn't got that backac in, why he hasn't got those people around him that will defend him no matter what because he's not listened and Yeah. And I mean, another thing that I think the history books will focus on is that he managed to annoy everybody even when he changed course. And you'd think if you changed course that the people who were demanding that you change course would be quite happy that you'd changed course. But I don't know what order do you want to do them in Student loans is your neck of the woods, Department of Education announcing a cap at six percent from September after the Iran War broke out. so of course you can always argue that it is the facts change, you change your mind when the facts change. But of course prior to that they were supposed to be Stuck at nine percent. So that counts as a U turn. It took one hundred and thirty two days from november the twenty sixth, twenty twenty five to april the seventh twenty twenty six, Rachel Rees went from calling it fair and reasonable in late January to announcing that it would be frozen at six percent from September, a couple of months or one hundred and thirty two days later. A dear, and that still leaves everybody annoyed, the people who wanted the Un and the people who didn't. everyveryone's annoyed. And for me at the moment, digital idea is at the top of the list, not because I have particularly strong feelings about it one way or another. policy goes from being popular to being unpopular after it's implemented and almost entirely as a consequence of who implemented it, then Houston, we have a problem. Liz, thank you. I look forward to your second call. Anna is in Camden. Anna, what would you like to say? Hi, James. I feel like I agree with a lot of what everyone's been saying. It's just that human thing. It's like If you see someone getting like knocked over by a car, your instinct is, o my God, I want to help them. Are they going to be okay? You might not even believe in God, but you might not not on Facebook Not on Facebook these days. You're being inundated with people laughing and celebrating and sticking, you know smiley face emojis all over it. Yeahadly. So my experience was just I have also had this thing of feeling very different things and different emotions about K, but In that speech, I So bad for him, but I also just felt like came across as really honorable. and it just came across really putting that thing into practice of I'm going to put the country before personal ambition and party. And I think we haven't experienced that in a long time. And I just I feel like if he had actually leaned more into what he personally thinks and what he personally feels I think everything could have gone a bit better for him. but I know it's easier said than done because I can't imagine how difficult it would be to be the Pime Minister of the United Kingdom. No, nor can I actually, and probably more difficult now than it has been at almost any other point in post war history. Somet that occurs to me, I don't know if you agree with this, but people like Boris Johnson and Liz Truss made it very easy for us to know exactly what our opinions were There was no real conflict even between head and heart because Johnson in particular was so sort of personally amoral that you't didn't need to feel or you didn't have an impulse of empathy when you looked at someone who'd caused so much suffering, suffering. And I suppose the same went with trust, but Stalmer is conflicting us precisely because he seems to be to all intents and purposes a very decent man, but he was I'm afraid bit of a rubbish prime minis I don't like saying that. It feels a little bit unseemly to say it while the Well, the ink is still fresh on the resignation letter, actually we haven't seen An resignation letter yet. I don't know what's going to happen next, but I do know that we're here until one o'clock. so there's plenty of room for conversations about whether we want other hats in the ring or whether we want any a leadership contest at all. I don't know what start what Berham would prefer. He let it be known at the weekend that he'd prefer a contest rather than a coronation. It strengthens the mandate, I suppose. and yet you can see the case for the opposite as well because it would involve less disruption and less interneesine warfare. Just not by way of a prediction because I don' really feel confident enough to make any predictions, not in the style of my Brexit predictions, every single one of which of course has come true. O my Donald Trump predictions, every single one of which Oh my Benjamin Netanyahu predictions, everyvery single of which, my Boris Johnson but anyway enough about me can't quite see Wes streeting sitting this one out. justust me at the moment, one perspective. I pay slightly more attention perhaps than the average bear, but I can't quite see W Streeting sitting this one out. Not least because he started the ball rolling In many ways m but also because he u I think he has his eye on the prize and that's not a bad thing. Almost all politicians do have in the back of their mind somewhere the thought of what would happen. You don't go into politics without dreaming on some level of being Prime Minister in ninety percent of cases. But I'd be very surprised if West Streeting sits it out Of course it may be up to Andy Burnham, He may be able to make W teting an offer that he feels he currently can't refuse, but I don't know. We'll get ont to that kind of pontification perhaps a little later in the programme. It's ten forty five Turn forty eight is the time. You've got what you want, or somebody's got what they want. The Parliamentary Labour Party have got what they want, but it's not a zero sum game this. You don't have to be feeling one hundred percent joy or one hundred percent dismay. I like to think that if we have any shared characteristics, you and I, then it would be an ability to hold two thoughts in your head at the same time. Here's mine, that's sad. He seems like a decent bloke. I thought he'd do a lot better Um, y also simultaneously acknowledge the fact that whether you're talking about student loans or digital ID or winter fuel allowances or I mean, the list does go on, doesn't it? O pub business rates or the farmers' inheritance tax or welfare reform or the Island of Strangers comments or the two child benefit cap or rights for workers or waspie women compensation or income tax thresholds or grooming gang inquiries, the perception that Him saying something would happen or wouldn't happen was no guarantee that his government would ensure that something would happen or wouldn't happen. And that's fatal, I think. That's a fatal flaw objectively You know, unless you've got a mad ist in power unless you've got a Donald Trump in power who can say on Monday that X is going to happen and on Tuesday that it definitely isn't and death to anyone who says it is. I mean that level of insanity is now baked in to the White House, as we'll see perhaps later in the programe. But for those of us who still sort of cling to a belief that stuff matters. If you are a prime Minister whose word has become worthless Whether you like it or not, you can't argue with me about this. The number of times on which he said something would or wouldn't happen, and then it The opposite occurred, it did happen or it didn't happen. The opposite of what he said would happen happened That becomes untenable You can argue on a few occasions when the facts change so I changed my mind. What do you do? but you can't argue it on ten occasions. I mean, you'd struggle really to argue it on two in your first two years. You know, it's a bit like I'm The Oscar Wildline, isn't it? aboutb one is a misfortune two is careless And here we are. So you can simultaneously feel poignancy Chathos, empathy. but acknowledge and and know that the situation had become untenable. Michael's in Farmworth in Andy Burnham Country, Michael, what would you like to say So I feel massive relief, to be honest that this has happened that K Starmer has resigned. Obviously, I feel really bad for Starmer that he has had to resign at the moment, it felt like we're getting to twenty twenty nine and Nigel Farage would likely be the next prime mininister. Now at least there's a chance that won't happen because honestly, I was I'm planning to, you know, I was planning to leave the country by twenty twenty nine. I don't want to be here when Nigel Farge is prrime Minister because I'm gay, I'm left wing. It's not going to be a great place for me in twenty twenty nine if that's the case And so at least, You do not derive any pleasure at all from seeing people of colour brutalized and possibly deported. I absolutely hate it. I don't want to be in the country if that happens. I'm just out I'm pointing out, what you'd need to be in order to find the prospect appealing or attractive in any waym because I don't think we need to pretend anymore. It's become crystal clear in the last couple of weeks exactly where these people stand despite spending years pretending that they didn't And I mean, this is assuming that you know Andy Burnham, he's done great things for Greater Manchester. He's very much about putting power where the people are as well. He's about devolution, which I'm very, very pro, you know, I think that's a fantastic idea. If it's West streeting, maybe A little bit less, you know F fact, a little claim to fame West Streeting tried flirting with me in a club about fifteen years ago when we were both at a student conference. I didn't buy it then, I'm not buying it now. So it did ye. I think W switing. It could have been a look alike? It could have been a look alike, Michael. We you're hundred percent sure it was the real deal Well he was the head of the NUS LGBT most of thatn I mean, you know, we were all a little bit enthusiastic with our favours during our student days, perhaps. So I'm not going to read too much into that. but you I love the idea you didn't bite then and you're not biting now. You wouldn't leave the country if West Streeting became Prime Minister, I don't think Well, I mean he's a lot like Kiss Aaret when I think Burnham might be. you've gone early on this. You've got so I'll move with you on this one. It's your show as much as mine. I was going to wait tillil the second hour for this. but are you sure that Andy Burnham isn't equally prone to blowing in the wind and changing his mind? I mean, I could give you examples Well, I'm sure you could and this is the thing. when he was an MP, he wasn't massively up to much. However, he seems to have massively changed.'s, you know, what he's saying like certainly in great of Manchester, he's been making a lot of moves that are a lot more localism, you know, in that does that work on a national stage? say I guess we'll have to see like this because the thing it's kind of we'veve we've got to take a risk here. It's kind of if we stayed with the same then we you know, Kir Stama would not have resigned And West Streeting, I think is more of the same because he's you know, Star's lovely, but he's got the He's not got the right skills to be on the national stage. He's kind of he's very impartial, which is great if you're a news reader or a lawyer terrible if you're a prrime mininister. And I think West Street' the same except he seems a little bit more malicious and a bit more kind of I don't know how to put it, he seems a bit more kind of lookingking forward for his career, really I mean Itam was. Yeah, I mean, I don't think that Kestammer ever really stood accused of that. Did he? the idea that he was one of those eagotists who just wanted to have a go at being Prime Minister because In the words of David Cameron, he thought he would be good at it or a kind of Boris Johnson figure who just wanted to be King of the worldld and would make do with being Prime Minister in the event of a vacancy for King of the W worldld not coming up. I honestly think that Starmer wanted the job because He thought he would be able to make a significant change and do significant good, but then he fluffed it. I don't think we can argue with the fact that he fluffed it. We can make a very long list of all the things that he did and I may remind you of that list at the top of the next hour because it's important and he deserves legacy But he fluffed it Why do you think He was so sticky Michael, this is my theory. I'm hoping no one else puts pen of paper on the subject because it's what I'm planning on writing my column about tomorrow. but Whatever the opposite of Teflon is for a politician. we often talk about Teflon as if it's a bad thing, but it's not a bad thing if it's your guy who's Teflon Starmer was the opposite of Teflon, wasn't it? Everything that was thrown at him stuck and he could not get it off. Do we know why that was? Be that seems to me to be something to do with personality and manner I mean, I think that you know he acted as if he had a rais if in majvity even though he didn't. And I just think maybe he didn't have the confidence to do it because you know social media being what it is. and this is part of the reason I think Starmer may have worked twenty thirty years ago. He doesn't work now is because if you if you don't stand for anything, then people will just kind of go, well, he doesn't stand for me, he doesn't stand for me. And indeed, I'm seeing this about Andy Bernon because they're saying, well Already people are saying, well, they, you know, much as you've said earlier with one of your commentsers said, Ohh, well, he doesn't, you know, he's pro Israel And it's kind of well, okay, if you're going to just dismiss somebody and these people acting as if, well, because he doesn't support pro Palestine then oh, well we should just let Nigel Farag in anyway.'s just Well it letting people letting pererfect be the enemy of the good and you know, that the fairst thing you can say about Andy Burnnam when it comes to UK Israel relations is that his position is still unclear. He told He called Netanyah whose re election back in twenty fifteen depressing. He backed to Gaza ceasefire just weeks after october seventh and of course led Manchester through an attack on a synagogue last Jon Kur. So Nuanced would probably be the fairest word to use and of course, on that issue more perhaps than any other, nuanceces As we often discover on this program, nuance is not allowed. You've got to be a hundred percent on one side or a hundred percent on the other for some people, but not. te for everyone. Thank you, Michael. Great stuff, ten fifty Are you in a happy relationship now or do you look back upon that moment with West Streeting and wonder what could have been Interestingly, my partner has said that I should have probably got with West streeting because I could have prevented all of this. but I kind of just rebuffed that quite quickly. ten fifty seven is the time. Jackson West Mailing West Moring. Jack, what would you like to say? Yeah. So hi, James. and I am sad about this So my wife only this morning, she was on the way to work to tellld me that he'd resigned and we both heard the news from Trump when Trump tweeted out that he was going to resign. and we thought we'd saying a lotad of nonsense as he often does. But we were quite disappointed. know I didn't think he was a great prime minister or too big a fan of his, but I didn't think he was by any stretch of the imagination a terrible prrime minister worthy of resigning I look at the changes that have come in the Rentlers' Rights Act, the know emmployerss rightights A. I mean, is this not why we elect labour governments? Workers' rights? I I wonder, you know, you've again, as with Michael, you've touched on something I was thinking of moving to a little later in the programe, but this idea that It it's an option now. whereas prereviously Certainly prior to twenty sixteen, arguably even a little later than that Before Theereresa May got her feet under the table, resesignation because you've lost the support of your party used to be as rare as hens' teeth. and it's as if the party wouldn't go there unless the chips weren't just down. they were subterraneed. you know what I mean? But because we've got so everybody's got used to it, including MPs, It's almost as if perhaps they reach for that lever now a lot more readily and a lot more quickly than they would have done teen or twenty years ago Yeah. Well, maybe people think being Prime Minister is an easy job Yeah I mean that's probably what they think. I think a lot of it, as one person commented this morning at the beginning of your show is to do with social media and a lot of bots on social media that go unchecked or unverified And then as soon as recorded the way Yeah, I mean it's a symbiotic relationship, isn't it? And you see it in politics as well, the terminally online people People living in a universe that the rest of us don't recognize where you know, London isn't safe compared to American cities, for example, or where Saria law has been introduced or where o I could go on and it doesn't exist that place. but if you believe it exists, then your politics are going to be informed accordingly. I don't know about that. I like that idea that this is actually evidence of game change in I mean what would be a good analogy to use here? It's like a lever that hasn't When it was pulled for Margaret Thatcher, it was huge Absolutely huge I remember it, I think I was working in River Island at the time in Worcester and it was absolutely immense when it felt like Thatcher's number was up N not least because she'd been Prime Mister for eleven years Whereas now, oh, we've had enough of this guy, let's try another one It's contagious. So the Conservative Party had a terminal case of let's try another one And now the Labour Party, you might argue, has caught the virus. I don't know Four minutes after eleven. So I asked you and I told you that Farage would be calling for a general election. Well, that's not true is it? I said the biggest liyar in British politics would be calling for a general election by eleven o'clock today and they're in theleven o'clock Blletin in the iss calling for a general election completely ignoring the fact that, because of course he believes that his supporters are stupid, I'll leave you to decide whether that's a fair judgment or not. But I wasn't born. The last time a British prime Mister entered and left Downing Street as the consequence, I was born when he left, but I wasn't born when he entered Isn't that insane? because we still have a What's the word for it? A kind of sense general elections both install and remove Prime ministers and that it is out of the ordinary if it happens in other circumstances. The opposite is true The last prrime mininister to enter and leave Downing Street as a consequence of a general election was Ted Heath Ted Heath From nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy four And while I'm in full geek mode currently believe that he will, but I really hope his Starmer doesn't become a sort of Ted Heathteraujour and spend the rest of his political life displaying great bitterness at his own defenestration and trying to make life difficult for his successors, which is what Ted Heath did after he was essentially replaced by Margaret Thatcher. in circumstances not dissimilar to what we're seeing here, except that it happened in opposition rather than rather than Rather than power. I have Andy Burnham's response. so first first bat black markark for Andy Burnham is put it on Twitter I think one of the first things that they should do is get off there. get off that hell site Get off the get off the Nazi friendly platform, G to get off the absolutely hideous cauldron of lies and racism and just find another way of getting him. Lave them to it it's no point. Yeah. So first black mark for Andy Burnham is put his announcement on Twitter Ker has given huge service to our country and I want to thank him for his leadership and dedication during such a challenging period See, that's already sounding And I want to thank him for is usually the language that you'd expect in a prrime ministerial missive greeting a resignation from a minister. His decision marks the beginning of a transition, and it is important that this process is conducted in an orderly and responsible way. I will put myself forward as part of this process. The country expects stability, seriousness and a continued focus on the issues that matter most and that is what it will get. posossibly second black markark for Andy Burnham Do you think country expects stability, seriousness and a continued focus on the issues that matter most. you've just delivered the polar opposite, mate by running for The Makerfield seat, in the absence of which none of this would currently be happening. A stay of execution, a postponement or a cancellation. I don't know, but a little bit rich, perhaps. As we move forward, our priority must be to work together to get the country back to where we all want it to be People want to see progress on economic growth, cost of living, public services, housing, and opportunities for the next generation. Political change should never distract from the responsibility to improve people's lives a tick for that. That's nice The Labour moveoment has always been at its strongest when it looks forward with confidence and purpose Also true. This is what we will do from here and we will make sure this transition is a positive process of renewal for our party and our country I have a question for you And it is going to be about what really did for Kir Stara. And you can use head or heart on this one U Before that I think we'll listen to the soon to be former prrime Minister, listing what he considers to be his government's greatest achievements outside number ten this morning. I presume it was Steve Bray, who was quite good value during the Brexit shenanigans because his background noise acted as a siren for all of the nonsense that was being spoken by various Brexit supporters, but now that we know that was all nonsense, I really don't see any purpose served at all by disrupting this particular moment in this particular way. Do you want me to have a little read of what West Streeting has to say because I think it's a good job. I didn't make a prediction When I said a few moments ago that we're streeting, I'd find it unlikely that he would sit this one out. I don't know whether he was listening, but he has subsequently issued the following statement and he's done it on House of Commons noteepaper, which admittedly is not an option currently Yeah Andy Burnham could have done that as well Has he taken his seat yet? Either way. I wish he hadn't done it on Twitter, but he did also post it on. That hellsite. Kirara letters I'm not going to read all of this. I'll read you the relevant bits Kstammer led us to a general election victory that no one thought possible, He kept us out of the war in Iran and has delivered real progress as Prime Minister at home. He has made the right decision to stand down as the leader of the Labour Party that he saved and And here we go. I left the government because we were losing the fight to nationalists in every corner of the country I have spent the weeks since speaking to our former counllors, activists and voters in places that we lost to listen and to learn from them. A typo there, whereere That's unforgivable, given the context of this message. Having spoken at length with Andy in recent days, I'm convinced that there is a place for those ideas, as his after he is listed priorities under his leadership, that he is committed to building an inclusive party that draws on the best of our political traditions and that he can win the fight of our lives against the forces of nationalism We could spend the summer exaggerating small differences, or we can roll up our sleeves and help him to deliver the change our party and our country needs. That is the choice that I am making And I hope that everyone else will back Andy too We were elected change our country another typeo. We were elected to change our country. I'll edit it for you, to show that politics can be a force for good and to spread opportunity for everyone. With Andy, we still can. So streeting declares to Burnham who I don't think technically becomes an MP until half past two today. So it doesn't matter anyway because Streeting has tweeted it as well as sticking it on House of Commons u stationary So there it is. It doesn't mean there won't be a contest, but it means that the perceived biggest hitter in any contest will not be in it. West Streeting declaring for Andy Burnham Here is the Prime Mister, soon to be ex Prime Minister, listing what he considers to be his government's achievements outside number ten at Downing Street earlier this morning, with that caveat that I shared a moment ago that I think that the The people with the loudspeakers and the amplifiers have now perhaps delighted us for long enough Walking up this street two years ago was the proudest moment of my life A new Labour government The first in fourteen years page in our country's history turned after years of disappointment and despair The chance to change the lives of millions of people for the better That's what I came into politics for The journey to that point was not easy Six years ago, I inherited a Labour party that was politically, financially and morally bankrupt. I was told time and time again My party was finished that we were consigned to history, that a majority at the general election, let alone a landslide majority, was impossible But we prove those people wrong because we changed our party, ripping out the poison of anti Semitism, restoring trust on the economy, defence and national security, and becoming a party that once again stood proudly with, not against our national flag. The hard work of change was with a singular purpose, not power for power's sake, but to change Britain for the better, to build a fairer country with dignity and respect where everyone is seen Everyone is valued. wealth and opportunity for all Not just the privileged crew And look at what we've achieved in just two years An economy that is stronger, going faster than our peers, wages rising faster than inflation in every single month since we came to power Investments secured, infrastructure being built End to austerity with the fastest fall in NHS waiting lists for seventeen years biggest improvement in rights for workers and renters in a generation The biggest uplift in defense spending since the Cold War smallmall boat crossings falling. Asylum hotels closing prrotecting young people from social media. and half a million children being lifted out of poverty because of the choices that I made Our reputation in the world restored Britain once again standing up Deency, respect and the rule of law securing trade deals, standing with Ukraine, standing up for our values and rebuilding our relationship with our allies in Europe Change promised by a labour government Change fought for by a Labour government Change delivered by a labour government. But none of it ultimately enough to save Kia Starers bacon. Fair or unfair, them's the facts. And the question of why? What made his premiership so brittle, so vulnerable? What made him So vulnerable, so brittle. What really did for him is the question to which I will turn your attention shortly First though, a hydration break followed by our political editor Natasha Clark all being well live from Downy Street on some of the earlier reactions to Kir Starmer's announcement up to, of course, and including the breaking news that West Streeting has declared for Andy Burnham, the former health seecretary whose resignation, in many ways, put a lot of this set a lot of this in motion, has declared for Andy Burnham. I think West Streeting for Chancellor of the Exchquer is probably quite a good bet right now. Sixteen minutes after eleven is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. some other facts to add to Kara's self described list of achievements. You've seen taxes go up About sixty six billion pounds, especially on business and the wealthy. Public spending has gone up by about three hundred billion pounds.isc rules for investment were loosened. Workers' rights and renters rights were radically expanded Academy schools now enjoy more freedom than they did under conservative governments. The country has doubled down on net zero, signed a new EU agreement and recognised a Palestinian state So somewhere in the mix is another riddle, isn't there of how come None of this stuff mattered. or how come you perhaps didn't know about some of it Also significant that in that speech, he didn't mention immigration per se. He mentioned small boats and asylum hotels repurposed hotels both of which have diminished measurably, but the decimation of the overall immigration figure is not something he was minded to boast about, which perhaps speaks to that sense of moral querilousness and the idea that some of the things he did, he did despite his own best or better instincts. I don't know, but we'll get ono that shortly First though, Natasha Clock is still outside Downing Street where every political journalist in the country is currently trying to think of new things to tell presenters back in the studio, Natasha. Any thoughts? James, I've got loads of thoughts for you today and actually things are moving quite quickly here in Westminster. We haveve had two statements in the last few minutes, one from Andy Burnham and one from West Streeting. Those of course are the two people that most people expected to run for the Labour leadeership. Now Skir Stammer has announced that he will resign. Andy Berham has put out a message this morning thanking Sakkir Stammer for his leadership and dedication during such a challenging period, and he says that it is important this process is now conducted in an orderly and responsible way and confirmed I will put myself forward as part of that process. So Andy Burnham at first confirming the news that basically everybody in Westminster already knew and that he said essentially in a bit of a hint in his speech on Friday after he won make afield by election that he will put himself forward to be the next leader of the Labour Party and to be the next Prime Minister. The other question that we were all asking today was what was going to happen with West Streeting, of course the former Health Secretary has said that he has in the past wanted to run to be Labour leader as well, but just in the last few minutes we have got a statement from him he has written letter he talks about Kir Starmer has made the right decision to stand down as leader of the Labour Party. He said after a devastating set of election results, it is a victory for hope and unity over division and hatred in Makerfield. He says he has been in touch with Andy Burnham at length in recent days and he s he is now convinced that there is a place for ideas under his So he is now saying that he is not going to fight to be Labour leader. James is quite a significant moment because it means that we could now be on for a coronation of Andy Burnham in the days to come. He says we could choose to spend the summer exaggerating small differences or we can roll up our sleeves and help him to deliver the change our party and country needs That is the choice I am making, and I hope that everyone else will back Andy too. So he is rolling in behind West Streeting. and I think we probably can read into that letter, James that behind closed doors a deal has been done for a top job for West Streeting in Andy Berham's future cabinets. Now of course, we all wait to see whether anybody else throws their hat in the roing, whether Al Carnes will decide to run for Labour leader as well. But those are the two main challenges that we all saw for Prime Minister potentially for leader of the Labour Party. So it does look now more and more likely that we are going to get a coronation of Andy Burnham at some point. Now as K Stam said earlier, the nominations w't begin to open until july ninth, but if things continue to move this quickly, James, we could be seeing things happen a little bit more swiftly than thought. and we may not see a leadership election at all if all of the Labour Party We can coalce behind Andy Berham to be the next Prime Mister. We will not see a summer of chaos, a summer leadership election, and it will just be a waiting game for Andy Burnham when Kir Stahmer will hand over the reanks to him. What' the threshold? What' the deadline? Remind me. You can't say for certain that there isn't going to be a leadership election until the deadline for nominations has passed. You could have someone You know, who fancies their fifteen minutes in the spotlight turning up at the last possible minute who none of us have ever heard of and announcing that they're going to run against Bur Of course, that could happen. So july ninth is the Vagical D Star has decided that he wants that to happen. So we've got a few weeks of waiting and seeing to see whether anybody else decides to throw their hat into the ring. It's now down to Labour's national Eecutive Committee, down to the Deputy Party leader Lucy Powell and all of those on Labour's top team to decide exactly how this will happen and what it will mean But yes, we could be in a situation where in a couple of weeks, nobody apart from Andy Berham has decided that they will run, apart from him may have the magical number of eighty one MPs needed in order to stand. So we could see a correonation happen a lot quicker than we think. But obviously in Westminster, lots of conversations happening beside closed doors. I know from speaking to Labour MPs that many of them are not keen to see an Andy Berham coronation. Many of them do think that they want to see a formal contest. They want to see his ideas tested and are worried that actually just handing over the reins to somebody, we don't know what their policies are on certain things. We have a small idea of some of the things that Andy Berham would do if he were to become Prime Minister, but we don't know the extent of them. So some people in the Labour Party do want to see a contest. But if people like West Streeting are now already rowing in behind Andy Berham that for me suggests that most Labour MPs are probably unlikely. so what of those ATMPs that said they were ready to back where streeting? Are they all going to now r in behind Andy Burnham or are some of them going to be looking for a stop Andy Burnham candidate? That is what I have been hearing over the past few days. But as of yet, we've not seen that objects And no real likelihood of someone emerging from what's left of the left of the party in the way that we saw Back in twenty nineteen, because I was reminded Natasha and people could be forgiven for not knowing this or at least for having forgotten But one of the reasons Jeremy Corbin He ran in the first place and one of the reasons that many Labour MPs voted for him not expecting him to become leader, well that reason was called Andy Bowman Yeah, That's right. And yes, we may see somebody of the very, very left of the Labour Party decide to step up to to say, well, Andy Berham's not left wing enough. We have had a statement in from Angela Reyner. sayt doesn't mention It doesn't Does that Exactly So it doesn't mean that she won't stand herself. Well, I think you can read into it that she's not explicitly today endorsing Andy Berham. There have of course been discussions that she may be able to way want to throw her hat at the ring herself. and I'm sure there are people today which are urging her to think about that. But equally, some people have said that Andy Berham will want a position for Angela Rayner in his top teams That could also happen. Angela Ryna and and Annie Berham have been pictured together. I think in the last few months they were pictured together at an event. they are considered to be close allies. so potentially she will then ro behind him as well. But again, no mention of that in her statement this morning. She talks just about how she was sad to see Kistam ago. She talks about how he spoke with dignity and Guty this mning, My thoughts are with him and his family, I was proud to serve as deputy as he led the party into government. She says Labour was elected to change Britain and as a new chapter begins, we must now redouble our efforts to deliver for working people. So she is not coming out today and saying Andy Berham should be the next Prime Minister and she is going to support him. So I imagine she will be taking her time and she does have a bit of time until july the ninth to decide whether she wants to stand herself And that may be a question to which we turn our attention after twelve o'clock today, whether or not we want to see somebody else run for The Prime Minister effectively, of course, not just leader of the Labour Party, besides Andy Burnham, Natasha Clark Lve from Downing Street, many thanks indeed. That's my favourite statement of the three, actually. Listen, I'm a pedant and I'm a bit of a wally as well, as you've almost certainly gathered over the years that we've spent together Or possibly just the minutes or hours. I don't know how long you've been listening to this rubbish. But Andy Burnham I think went a little bit early on trying to sound prrime mininisterial. I want to thank him for his leadership and dedication. I don't like that. callall me petty, am I being petty? I just don't think that it was Burnham's place yet to write. Kir has given huge service to our country and I want to thank him for his leadership and dedication. I don't like that. It's a little thing. I'm being petty, petty alert. haveave we got a petty? No, of course we haven't. but we've got a Kir Starmer resigned within about ten minutes of it happening, Keith Any sign of mystic gy jingle yet And I If you're wondering what's going on, I ask for production to accompany some of the brilliant ideas I come up with on a regular basis on this program as a creative genius of radio generally takes about a year for the production to arrive. If Emily Maitless asks for something, meanwhile, on her news agent's podcast, it arrives before she's finished speaking. get a new Prime Mister faster than I can get a bit of production for my brilliant creative genius. not even probably. it's a given. So we've managed to get a jingle for Kirirstama resigning despite the fact that it happened about two hours ago. And Mystic Jimm, my brilliant new feature The latest evidence of my creative genius remains absolutely unaddressed, jingle free, stingless Whatever you want to call it So yeah, that's my beef with Burnham I want to thank him for his leadership. I think it's a little bit previous My beef with West Streeting, because I'm a Bedon is that this statement is riddled with typos I don't know whether that it doesn't matter in the great scheme of things, but It's riddled with typos. One of my west streeting predictions might still come true. I said I thought it was unlikely he'd sit this one out But he'sitting this one out. so it's a good job. I didn't stick that one on the actual prediction list rather than the mere observation But also an observation was that he's probably got his eye on the next round. He's still young, and he definitely wants to be Prime Minister of that there can be no doubt. He probably feels that the time isn't quite right for him. And then Angela Rayna. is entirely dignified in her statement, recognizing the role that history will play in remembering Kir Stahmer and paying tribute to his record of dedicated public service, and failing to mention, and one can't help thinking that this is not accidental, coincidental or irrelevant failing to mention Andy Burnham at all in her statement that cites the creation of Great British energy and Great British railways, the action to tackle child poverty and so much more. That list keeps getting longer, but not long enough to save his bacon, which is what we will turn our attention to next Why Ultimately why? did K Stama survive for such a short amount of time. Two years give or take. It's an extraordinary Judgment Your answer to this question could be Stalmer or drama So it could be something about Kestama that rendered his position so untenable so quickly, or it could be something about the country that he governs I'm not a big fan of these opeds about how the country has become ungovernable because that's know measurably untrue, very difficult to govern, liars on the march, all sorts of elements of it, but the thing I've been most struck by during our burlinkings this morning Proably that idea of the lever that says Change Prime Minister being one that you used to have to break like ten panes of glass to get to Do you see what I mean So there is that lever over that we don't really ever go near that cupboard There's a lever in that cupboard over there. It's got ten locks on it. Its it's like something like when Bugs Bunny was trying to protect something It's got a million padlocks on it We never go near that changeed Prime Minister Lvver And then since twenty nineteen. We've gone near it a lot Since twenty nineteen, we probably haven't put the locks back since the last time someone pulled that lever and put Rishi Sunak in downowning Street. So the last Prime Minister went into Downy Street as a consequence of someone pulling the lever The Prime Minister before that went into Downing Street as a consequence of someone pulling the lever. The Prime Minister before that went into Downing Street as a consequence of someone pulling the lever So I don't know because of course that doesn't quite fit with the fact that the last prime minister to enter Downing Street at a general election and leave Downing Street at a general election was Ted Heath. The last one to win one and go at the next one was John Major, but he was already in Downing Street before he called the general election. So you have to go all the way back to nineteen seventy to seventy four for the prime ministerial term that both began and ended, installed and removed the prime Minister. with general elections. The time now is half past eleven. Dominic Ellis has your headline. thirty three minutes after eleven is the time. So I mean, I used to play a game. I will do again, but I don't think today's the day. If someone had been in a coma for the last two years They literally fell asleep shortly after Kirst Starmer arrived in Downing Street and they've woken up this morning to see him leaving after a little more than two years withith an enormous majority, you know, a massive parliamentary majority, albeit a very shallow majority by which I mean those seats were won by relatively small margins and they're doing badly in the opinion polls at the moment. but still, What would be the single biggest reason that you gave Well what really did for Starmer zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three and remember can be easither him H something done to him. Do you see what I mean? It can be the him or context. It can be him or country. It can be starma or drama. Whichever you prefer. But what's the biggest thing you'd put on that list? Oh three four you know the Cirsty's in. Albans, K Custy, what would you like to say Hi James. think I think the for me anyway, I'm speaking as a former head of corporate affairs of a large tech corporate company of a ull up BC I would researcher. I won't go as far as saying senior journalist, but I had a long career in corporate affairs in years, running press offices, com campaigns, hundredundreds of organisations and I think the reason why KF Starma has resigned is because His communication as a person was very dry and very poor. he came in off the back. Okay, we had Liz Trust, we had Rishie But he came off the back of Boris Johnson, who sat there with personality politics basically wanging on about stuff he hadn't even achieved, but pretending he had. know And so Kirstara being a very straight down the line legal Very exactly. We needed that. We needed that antidote because we were tired of the country. But the problem is with that comes restrictions, he probably hampered the press office and said, I don't want you to say that. I don't want you to talk about that. We can't say that and that absolutely the ink is absolutely dry. whereas on that deal. So the press office probably had great ideas and was trying to put out press releases every single day about the achievements that K Stammer achieved. all the ones you've talked about, we didn't hear about those. I think it's more likely not mean just not challenge your thesis, but to just adapt it. I think it's more likely that they were rubbish. in the C' office and he left them to it. he left them to it. what Jane I said to the researchers that I thought the press office had mrter Trick I didn't want to be cruel for my profession. But y I was trying to be kind, I know you can, but I agree with you. I think the whoever I don't even know because I'm out of the industry now I have a different business. I resign because through ill health. I'm sorry That's okay. but I think the press Office has missed a major trick during his time in office, and that's a real shame Well, I find this really interesting. They had a crack with Tim Allen, who was very much I think from the Tony Blair years as director of Cs. Cs. I don't know. and I think Matthew Doyle had a go if he's not still there, but there was no Alisa Campbell figure. That much is clear. No. hang on My resesponse to this. has usually been over the course of the last two years is that you could have had the finest spin doctor in the world in the job. But they're never going to convince the Daily Mail to stop writing Bilge or the Daily teelegraph or the Daily Express or any of the historically Tony Gallagher, the Paul Daker protege over at the times, when he's not dancing to Rupert Murdoch's tune, he's dancing to what he can remember of Paul Dacers. You could have the finest communications team in the history of humanity, eighty to ninety percent of the media before you've even got to the social media sewers I' going to be describing him as being awful even if he cured the common cold This is never going to stop as well. You're quite right. the scum, the saail, the extreme, all of those, I absolutely abore them. are just So what would you do then? There's a directory of Coms. How are you going to get them to do? Well, because this is what people still rely on for their information. What are you going to do to get them to print? the problem is it's not just a press issue. We're up against multim millionaires funding the likes of these newspapers in offshore tax havens. they have got money to waste and bung in pockets They have got money coming out of their ears. And the problem is the likes of the Guardian, for example, always just desperate for money. Every time I try and read something, they're desperate for a donation or a payw. know I just want to read the story. Yeah, well, you've got to pay the journalist, D We got up on a bit of a tangent. And I do, and I do. I do donate regularly But I will not put any penny on How do you get the right wing client media to give a labour prime minister or even a labour leader because it happens in opposition as well, a fair crack of the whip. Remember, Nigel Faris took five million pounds in No And kissed armour accepted some spectacles and a couple of suits and you'd have thought from reading the two stories that one had happened and the other one didn't ' quite right. And I don't see any of the right wing press saying anything about that being a bad thing to you? Not really, No. Although it is why he's gone silent, I think, because he's very frightened of actually being asked questions by people who are normally very Should we say amenable? Of course, one or two will still be able to conduct interviews with them without asking you about the five million quidies secretly accepted from a stable coin billionaire. And of course, I'm just asking questions, we don't know how much money he accepted from other billionaires in return for unspecified responses. we will probably never know because he ain't going to tell us. It may not be any, may just be the one, may just be five million quQid, but it may be loads more. This is a bloke that of course would offer public support for the IRA if you sent him eighty quQid on cameo. So God knows what you get for five million, but he's unlikely ever to tell us. So I take Cirsty's point. I don't know though, and I should know, but I don't know. You'd read that list, stronger economy, wages outstripping inflation, investment in infrastructure, NHS waiting lists down, workers and renters' rights bills. They're big deals, thoseough. That's why the right wing hate them Deense spending up, not by enough, according to John Heley, his own defense secretary, but still up Small boats down, asylum hotels, the use of asylum hotels down Immigration, which he didn't mention, has absolutely plummeted to the point where some very clever people think it might even be moving into zero territory. Net migration might be moving into zero territory sooner rather than later. Led the line on Ukraine, recognize the state of Palestine, refused to get involved in Donald Trump's ludicrous war against Iran, which literally nobody in retrospect can think was the wrong idea, except possibly Donald Trump And he's mad. So Let's not count him. So there's all sorts of stuff there. and yet Kirsty's dead, right You wouldn't know it, would you from a cursory glance at much of the British media, and that's before you even get to the sewer of social media. But I don't know. The only guest I was thinking of booking today was Alistair Campbell, actually. Just because I don't know, and I haven't spoken to Alista Campbell for a while, but I don't know whether or not A different Cs department could have done a much, much better job because Campbell and Blair they wooed some of the organs that would be historically diametrically opposed to any form of a labour government. You also had a lot of fatigue kicking in in ninety seven. The Tories had been in power for eighteen years. So it was a little bit like Starmer taking over because everyone had actually had enough of what went before But they you know, Tony Blair iss godfather to Rupert Murdock, one of Rupert Burdoock's children I think that's an often overlooked element. There was very little prospect of Kir Stamma being invited to take up that kind of role. The relations were not anywhere like as as cordial, but I just don't know whether a genius of communications would have been able to do immeasurably A much, much, much better job of getting some of the achievements over the wire than The team that he had And ultimately, it's his job, isn't it? Ultimately, it's his job talk a good game and he didn't Afal is in High Wickham, Afal, what would you like to say? Hi, James. Hello J I'd say, I think it's a lack of political instinct. I think the policy is in the wrong direction and I think that delivery hasn't been quick enough And I think on that final point, the most potent example would be the social media band I mean, this is what people were talking about six months ago And even before that, it was already being suggested by Paris being suggested by teachers units and the It takes so long for them to move the levers of government I they did in a day. I don't I mean Australia I think were're the first in the world to do it. and they did it in December And it's Jun Right, it's not it's not like a year even They trialed it in one of their state governments before. So they trialed it across an entire state and then it went nationwide, but it went nationwide very quickly after that But over here, I mean, the announcing a consultation And then you do a consultation. All it looks like from the outside from a citizen perspective, because giving the opportunity to big companies to say, hey, look, oh yah, you know, This is evidence presented that social media isn't bad for children. When in reality everyone knows it is So why even take time on that? And that's what I mean by political instinct is you have to say fair enough This is going to be our thing Yeah, And I think that extends to the media as well. I mean, I saw on the telegraph, I think the second or third day after he got elected was saying he should reside. because the only one with thirty three percent of the vote nationally. I've never seen this telegraph care about electoral the electoral system before that day and it blew my mind But at that point, I knew the media is going to give this guy a tough ride the whole time and he needs to take them on in some This is ye, okay, I can coalesce around this with you and with Kirsty. So when they were kicking his head in for accepting some spectacles from a colleague from you know a labour peer, Wahid Ali who let Starmer's son stay in his flat and it's a friend. It's not like a complete stranger who lives in Thailand and uses a foreign name to do business there. It's a close friend Coli. who was in Downing Street and part of the Labour Party team, part of Kir Starmer' team. So Starmer should have just come out and said, Yeahah, I took some suits and some spectacles off him because he wanted to give them to me and I didn't want to be rude and say no. let's just list all the things Boris Johnson took off various donors and then forgot about. Boris Johnson moved into a house in the JCB owner's garden afterfter he stopped being Prime Minister. mostost rich people have got peacocks to show to their guests and illustrate how rich they are. JCB boss has an actual former prime minister. That's what I would have liked to have seen. a touch of what Angela Rayna might have done when her back was against the wall and just come out swinging. He never swang, did he? He never swung. He didn't, and that's what people want from a Labour Prime Minister. We haven't put you there to take on, you know the forces of you know monopolies and the corporate elite just to be like, oh yeah, we'll roll over at the first instance of it That's not what we want. I mean, if you look at Zach and this is why people like him. When the Daily Mill started you know, talking to his former family members or whatever He went straight after them. He said, Look, this is what you're trying to do to dig up gurtles. Don't do it And you refuseed to speak to the telegraph. which is it's tricky to do that if you want to be prrime mininister or if you are Prime Minister. But I don't and he probably is quite a good example of this of someone just absolutely refusing to play the game. and someone's going to have to at some point They went after Ed Miliban's dead dad. Dad and Milibaband said, C I possibly have a right of reply to that? And they said yes, and they published it. And on the same double page spread They published a doubling down on their attacks on his dead dad. That's how evil these people are. and that's what you're up against if you are not dedicated to the interests of wealth as a politician in this country. So you've covered two angles Number one is the public good, which would be the social media ban. Even if it doesn't work, at least we tried and we think it will And number two is the personal as opposed to the political, which is just just show me that you fight for something What's that line from Hamilton, Eell You the wrong person. Are you serious? You've never seen Hamilton? I haven't. Well that's my gift to you. G and see it now. or listen to the listen to the sound. If you don't stand for anything, Burr, if you don't stand for something, Burr, you'll fall for anything or words to that effect. And that's the point, isn't it? is that You saw a little bit of that human side when he was talking about his children earlier, and it has emerged a few times when he talks about family actually, when he talks about his parents He talks about his late brother Nick that humanity, you kind of wanted to see it in a political context as well or in a personal context as well. You wouldn't want him to fake it. but No one swg he didn't swing and as Daphne points out, no one else really swung for him I don't know whether it's pie in the sky, whether it's fanciful to suggest that our right wing media now, which is almost all of it. is so utterly bent. If they weren't bent before Brexit and Boris Johnson, imagine how bent they must be now. I remember hearing someone say, Oh, we shouldn't talk about Brexit anymore. the same kind of person that might use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome. peopleeople who have been historically and epically wrong about everything Everything Go after people like Kir Stammer as if he were public enemy number one. and We or they never fight back They never really fight back. BBC never does a job on the Daily Mail like the Daily Mail does on the BBC So it has to be impartial quite get it. It's almost as if I don't know, either either you come down to their level and fight fire with fire or you leave the pitch clear to the people. with the flamethrowers and just sit there sort of Waving your fire extinguishers It is needs a bit of work that analogy, but you know, you get the picture eleven fifty one in a break with tradition, Kistama resigned when I wasn't on holiday. Normally the big stuff happens when I am Sunning myself. I think I'll be away when the deadline for nominations is reached so july ninth for that. I should be back by the sixteenth, I think when Ballots will close in the event of there being any sort of leadership contest, We may nudge along next into the question of whether you want to see one, but I'm far from done with the question of what did for Stmer? what made his Premiership or indeed him so brittle. Is he a victim of circumstance or is he his own worst enemy, if you like, two people that I often turn to when I want to be I want to have a little help thinking about things. are both writers, one called Joh Ellge, one called Dorian Linsky, they've both had very interesting contributions to make on this question. I'll go with John Ellge first. Starmer is not only incapable of making difficult decisions, he seems not to understand it's his job I've had it from multiple sources that he gets angry when officials decline to say which course of action is better, even though sometimes it's not clear which is better. It's a trade off, or all options have risks. That is why there's no coherence to our immigration or tax policies. Starmer refuses to meet MPs unless it's absolutely unavoidable. He doesn't like ministers who promote their own ideas, but doesn't seem to have any of his own. He has utterly failed to articulate how he wants to change the country or what he thinks this government is for. hisis government is for He presided over policies that have taken rights from protesters, from migrants, from refugees and from trans people. He's made speeches and pursued immigration reforms intended to impress the far right, who are never going to vote for him while alienating his own voters. He has seemed entirely disinterested in the fact that the higher education system, which is a competitive advantage a major export industry and a huge platform for regional economies all at once is collapsing. And on multiple occasions, when cooked up racist thugs have been committing acts of violence and mass civil disorder on our streets, he has been at best reluctant to get in front of a camera and say these people are racist thugs who will be punished by the full force of the law Pensioners who support the Palestinians by contrast, he is happy to throw away the key So there is quite a lot to get your teeth into there. And Dorian Linsky, who's written a brilliant book about George Orwell and does an excellent podcast what call the origin story with Ian Dunt It takes a slightly different position, or r crystallizes and briefer. You may disagree or rightly point out that that consequences matter far more than motives But my take is that the driver of the most morally repugnant decision Starmer took was cowardice rather than malice Maybe that's actually worse damage weak men do. If I think about the worst things Starmer did, I don't think he truly believed in any of them I think I'd agree with the last line. When I think of the worst things Starmer did, I don't think he truly agreed with any of them. And it's of pace with the idea of standing up to critics, standing up to noise, standing up to liars I think maybe if the Rnt Boy thing had happened. I don't know if it lands with him though So if you don't know what I'm talking about, it was absolutely everywhere on social media, particularly Elon Musk's platform some Russian sponsored arsonists who set fire to the Prime Minister's property. were actually male prostitutes, angry over unpaid bills. Every time I say that out loud I feel a little bit of my hope for this country died becausecause so many people believed that. some continue to. actuallyually Lenin was still selling the grift after the arsonists had been convicted. I don't know whether he was in Moscow at the time or whether he hadd just gone back from a trip that he enjoyed with Elon Musk's father, a man best known for impregnating his own stepdaughter twice hashtag save our women, hashtag protect our girls that When I say that out loud And I know that loads of people, probably more people even that believe that COVID could be caused by five G phone masts. that is a mad mark of how mad everything has become how ugly and wrong everything. How do you how do you govern in a country where people believe builds like that Nigel Farris takes five million pounds from a foreign based billionaire who uses a foreign name to do business despite being British. Oh, that's fine. Yeah no I did it in secret and you've got no idea whether he took millions more from millions of others Does't matter. he's great Kast Stama Oh yeah, he's the bloke who who got his got his they set his old house on fire when his sister in law was in it. But it's his own fault because he doesn't pay male prostitutes after using their services That's the same country and the same people supremely comfortable with one of them, which is true. Absolutely outraged by the other, which is a lie So what did for him? Stara or The surrounding drama L' in York Lou. what do you reckon How can I just say it's pretty rude to gzump a guest with exactly what they were going to say with an incredibly long quote before they come on. What are you talking about? I have no idea what you're about to say. So that first quote you gave there, the commentator was basically saying Farmer compromised on everything. That was Joh Ellge. Yeah. John Ellge. Yeah, Everything Starmer did was to appease an imaginary person in his head who didn't exist He comes in and immediately goes that's better. That's pthia. they're professionals. So you take a lap of honour. Well the thing is, I think the thing with Starmer is he was constantly trying to play both sides in a way that neither side believed him or liked him He was constantly coming forward going, l, I will cut benefits. You know who benefits I'm going to cut? Pensioners benefits. Oh no, the one group of people whose benefits you can't cut without facing enormous backlash. Oh, I'm going to come out and say that I'm in favor of trans and gay rights in this country. I'm going to have very thoughtful talks. I'm going to come on LBC and not define what a woman is. I won't say a thing when the Supreme Court comes around and says that actually trans women and trans men shouldn't be treated the same as their Sith counterparts Oh, I'm going to come out and say that I'm going to be hard and tough on immigration and show the whole country that I'm really tough on immigration. Oh, the one party that has that issue capitalised and their supporters still don't love me. and now the left wing of the party is looking at me going, who are you? We didn't vote for a labour leader to be a right wing government some did. I mean I mean there are there are people leaning towards labour who wanted to see action on immigration, but that doesn't mean that the action they've seen was the right action or even that they're applauding it. It's not quite all I'm saying is It's not quite as binary as you describe it. There are people minded to vote labor who feel as if things are out of control. but of course, feeleing something is not and he failed on both fronts. He hasn't assuaged those feelings and the facts are that the numbers have come down, but the economy will be we can further as a consequence But it was a total lie that bringing down immigration was ever going to improve the economy. Bringing down immigration is basically a feel good for right wing people who want to see the numbers of Yeah, but also for left wing people.sequ the only quibble I've got with you is that it's also true of left wing people I mean, I mean, this is what the Red Wall was about. There' what peopleople who were labour through and through who voted for Brexit. They're not a mythical constituency, peopleople who identify as left wing, who feel that their lives have been diminished by immigration. Now their lives have not been diminished by immigration and the effort put in by the people who have diminished their lives, i. e, the people with all the money who own the newspapers of the social media platforms, they have successfully ceded the idea that your life has been made worth by immigration. and Starmer fought from a position of defeat. He thought he would be able to win those people back by reducing the numbers enormously. But the problem is, of course, that when the numbers are reduced enormously, Nobody's life is going to improve Exactly. Fighting the feeling is not to do with actually fighting immigration, it is fighting the feeling. And the lives of people like Farrenin So the lies so this is actually something just to loop around on something when you're saying about the Rent Boy conspiracy that Kir Am hadving. You're in such despair at the idea that people could believe this story.. There is not a single person who believes in that story who didn't already hate K Stamm. Of course. Don't lose your mind over this idea that oh my God, how can people possibly believe this? The whole point of conspiracy theory is confirmation bias to the believer. It tells them something they already think. No, listen two things. Number one, it's far too late for me to resist the loss of my mind That ship sail That ship sailed years ago. And number two, I can despair at that as a patriot actually, as a patriotic person, I can despair at what has been done to the population of the country that I love to people who were not born like this. And listen, hating Kir Starmer is one thing, but believing something so obviously ridiculous It like believing that, you know, the emperor is wearing robes or whatever fairy tale we prefer. That's a tragic moment in our public discourse, mate. It just is I would push back and say, and I know this is going to sound a little bit disingenuous. I don't think they really believe it they like to believe it. I think they tell themselves they believe it because it makes a better story. In the same way that we all on the other side of the Trump debate like to laugh at all the stupid things Trump does and say, o, isn't that ridiculous and terrible and all that? And okay those things are actually happening because There's evidence of it. They want their own little chuckle stories. They want their own little reflecting call that goes wrong. And so, hey, Kit Dar is really boring. But if we say that he's got these rent boys that hate him, we can all have a chuckle down the pub. Isn't he awful that he has these rent boys he hasn't paid? They don't really believe it. It's not actually changing their minds. Well I hope you're right in a way because it means that they're easier to rescue than they would be if they did, but I'm not sure. I'll go fifty two forty eight. In fact, that's probably the split. Some people will be absolutely passionate about it because what I discovered during COVID was the intoxicating nature of a conspiracy theory and you end up needing to believe it. It's the only group you've ever really felt that you belong to. They're the only people that you fail a kinship with are the people who are party to the same secret information that you're party to. and the worst thing you can do to these people is point out to them that the information they're party to isn't information at all. It's lies. It's blatant lies. So I don't know, but I don't know what you were worried about. You knocked the previous commentators out of the park and as I said, they were professionals. It's twelve o one. Five minutes after twelve is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It is obviously politics, politics, politics today, some of the stuff we haven't had time to turn our attention to is that the first line I think of the memo of understanding signed between Iran and the United States of America contained a pledge that neither side would threaten the other. So Donald Trump celebrated that signing by threatening Iran appears to have brought about either a cessation or a pause of the negotiations that would move the ceasefire onto the next level. So my Craig David paradigm still stands Sign a ceasefire on a Friday, threaten threaten your enemy on a Saturday, call the whole thing off on a Sunday I'm not quite sure where we are on a Monday. I've got three missedinformations for you today. One of which I think doubles up as a woke watch. We haven't had a woke watch for a while, and one of which possibly doubles up as an unhinged headline. So three missed informations, one goes doubles on a woke watch and one goes doubles on a misedinformation. If you've no idea what I'm talking about, stay tuned to find out. and it is Windrush Day someomewhat overshadowed of course, by political events, inevitably, but I will mark it today by hearing an extraordinary story that explains why it is so important that the government acts to provide proper legal support to some of the families still waiting for justice in that area I suppose you have to point out that the political narrative at the moment is telling lies about anti white racism while the Windrush victims remain largely uncompensated and often forgotten. Make of that what you will. Seven minutes after twelve is the time. So back to Starmer's resignation still got a question about what you think was the biggest U floor in the whole project. So it could be, as we've discovered actually, that for me, I think the biggest thing in terms of what I want, what I'd like to see I just wish someone would stand up to these bullies, you know It's not always an easy thing to do. too properly stand up to bullies, you have to become a bit of a bully yourself But I think you should be comfortable bullying bullies as long as you don't bully anybody else. And it's not that difficult to work out who the bullies are So it would be nice to see a labour figure really standing up to the bullies. And I'm not sure Burnham is the man that's going to do that. But that's probably my starter for ten. I really like Dorianinsky's observation about cowardice. I think I'd be a little kinder. I'd probably call it querulousessness. or something like that. But this almost an analogy. I don't know if it's a lawyer thing, if it's a legal thing, or if it's more personal than that, but almost an allergy to taking a strong decision and then sticking to it. becausecause a consequence of that querulessness, if that is indeed the right word, is the The impermanence of decisions You know, that the the regime the administration is typified by what critics will call U turns and which I suppose admirers could call changes of mind. But if it looks like a U turn and it screeches like a U turn, the chances are it's a U turn And the reason why you get U turns is because there is an absence of certainty Now an absence of certainty can be a good thing, right An absence of certainty can be a good thing because some people are certain that something is true that is not true. and the more certain you are that something that isn't true is true, the more danger you are in and the more danger you pose to others. Back to the male prostitutes in the Kir Stahmer story If you're never certain about anything That's it, isn't it That's it. We got there. nine minutes after twelve on the Do Kist Arma's resignation. Tell me something he's certain about Tell me something you're certain, Kir Stara is certain about C somethingomething you're certain that he's certain about except oddly love of his family and love of his country, which are the moments where his voice cracks, which are the moments where he seems most human. What is what are you certain that Kir Stara is certain about? So I suppose we'd have to call it the absence of certainty And you know what another word for certainty is conviction It's an absence of convict. What is the biggest thing? I've not said this before. It's only just occurred to me now. in that moment you heard it happen live on your radio The absence of conviction And again, I don't know that Andy Burnham, from what I remember of him in Westminster is necessarily someone possessed of Ooodles of conviction. So's that's mine. Of course yours doesn't have to be the same. What would you what would you put on the list? Is it something outside that happened to him? Is it drama O is it something inextricably part of him in and of him? Is it Starama ero three, four, five, six, zero six zero nine, seven three. And then I'd like to move on if I may. this hour To the question, and anyone can answer this. I'll tell you what, if you're enjoying this and you might be a bit new to it and you've been thinking, o, I'd like to get involved, but I don't know how or I don't know if it's really for me. Here's a nice easy one for you Um Do you want a battle Do you want a contest? You're not going to get one involving Wes Streeting I would say that Angela Ryna's statement at the very least suggests that she is keeping her powder dry She has not and could easily have pledged loyalty to. a Andy Burnham premiership. She could easily have thrown her not inconsiderable political weight behind Andy Berham. West Streeting has chosen to do so. He broke early and he broke fast. and he has nailed his cols to Andy Burnham's mask. in expectation, I would say, of holding one of the great offers of state by the time Parliament comes back. and that would P be Chancellor. The other two, of course, alongside Prime Minister which he hass decided is not for him at this juncture, would be foreign Secretary or homeome seecretary. So I I can't say I don't know. I've been saying that far too much. I'd quite like to see some sort of contest. He says at twelve minutes past twelve. for the very simple reason that I want to see Burnham set his stallout proper Th thenen I've got something to judge him by Then I can say a year from now or two years from now, well, he didn't do this and he didn't do that. And when you're coming in as prrime Minister, your quotes manifesto end quotes is unique. because you can be held to it You campaign in opposition, you discover the reality when you achieve power and you have to abandon some of the things that you claimed in opposition. Or of course, you can be more cynical about it and say, well, I'll make promises in opposition that I know I'm not going to be able to keep when I'm in power. But if you're campaigning to become leader and prrime Minister at the same time and It's a very different U Metric isn't it? It's a very different equation. So do you want I mean who So there's two questions, isn't there? You can't tell me that you want to see some sort of leadership contest without telling me who you want to see in it and why? So I still want more on the brittittleleness of Kirara, the vulnerabilities of K Starma, how much of the wounds that ultimately did for him, how many of them were self inflicted and how many of them were the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. And then alongside that question of whether or not you actually want to see some sort of Um leadership contest because I'd say it's less likely now than it was on Friday which I think might have been the last time I asked you, Do you want Andy Burnham to progress to Downing Street unchallenged? Or do you as a neutral or as a labour die hard or as a sworn enemy of everything Dcent and honorable and left wing. do you want Andy Burnham to actually face obstacles to actually face challenges or of course it's your show as much as mine Do you want someone else to be Prime Minister? Not Andy Burnham, And if so, who and why? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. Phil's in hole, I think Phil question or answer?ve got a bit previous. It's not Thursday. Phil, what would you like to say DCPM, it's our time Jo.' going It's been a while. so you have been a while. It has. So where are you this morning? and don't say hull I'm in hope. So yeah, it's made a whole of other time as well, right? the moment So I'm looking at this from two perspectives in terms of our initial questions. So there's the external and there the internal. So the external, obviously labor won a loveless landslide victory. but it was under the, you know, under the underpinned by broken Britain, despair, anguish, you know, we need to get past E that's going on and we need something different So throwing everything out into saying, right, we need you in power. But obviously when Kirst Starma came into power and Labour Party came into power, we saw a riot We saw the prisons which were which were ull to overflow in. And obviously we had the as we've mentioned before, the press attacks as well. So externally, you know, Labor was essentially handed a hospital pass. It was sort of like we're in a no win situation in that in that in that position Lberally as well because it was What was his name? Alec Chalk? Alex Chalk. Is that a name? Is that a person? Alex Chk? One of the senior Tories in the last administration had pointed out that Rish she soon act tirelessly that the prison situation was untenable. and they'd already, of course started releasing people early so that they could put new people in to begin their sentences, but they did absolutely nothing to alleviate it because they knew that it was a problem imminently to be inherited by Kir Starmer. And of course, that wasn't reported honestly across much of the media and it made Starmmer look awful. And then you've got the Farriage riots, which again saw an extraordinary swelling of incoherent hatred being directed at the Prime Mister by people who wanted to set fire to foreigners Yeah, it was terrible. So obviously you know they were left in a rock and a hard place in that situation. Now, obviously this was compounded internally. So this is where the internal factors came in, was compounded by the decision making around the winter fuel payments, the farmers, obviously, you know, obviously that was explored, not to say that that was wrong, but I think the timing was wrong because it looked like He was attacking them. it looked like he was attacking the pensioners. So all this really, I think compounded to really put K St and Labour Party in a position which basically they dug themselves into a bigger hole than they had been created. Was it timing or was it appetite? So the thing I would say to Andy Berner way to ask me, which is obviously not going to happen I would say don't announce anything that you're not prepared to defend to the death Just in the first year or two, certainly in the first don't don't announce so you've gone with two, you've gone with winter fuel And you've gone with the most favorable inheritance tax circumstances for anyone in the country, still being afforded to farmers but less favorable than they were before. Announce those things by all means, but defend them to the death Don't you t. Yes, I think it is timing only because I think as I say, just just remember, we've being underpinned by this anguish, this despair, broken Bitain, nothing worse. People want to feel something. It's that perception. and we want to feel like something's changing. There's a move. even if it's even if it's small or little, what can be announced that's going to bring a bit of light of positivity And I think some, you know, I think Yes, look at the important issues, but just say look, these are the feel good policies, whver whatever that looks like. Obviously they announce these presch meals, which is great. But anything that's just going to just create that idea and perception. This is where obviously you have to be clever around where labor weren't that streetwise around what's the public sentiment? And how can we really galvanize people to see, okay, we are There is some change, there is some light at the end of the tunnel, even though you know we know there's some dark bits underneath that. And you took my word away from me because because conviction politics was going to be really, really key to that. Obviously for communication as we've said as well. But it's perception. as we know, perception is such a powerful thing. So if it was perceived by the public and the movement that things were moving in that bright way even though Things like the winter fuel whatever potentially in principle were right is a wrong time because the public were thinking, well you're attacking us still. This is this is still going down the same route as what we've had over the last fourteen years. Nothing's changed X, Y, Z. This the three ses the three C is conviction communicators and the Characters on social media Yeah Yeah. and we've let and you know and something that we've both spoke about for a long time, obviously the whole Brexit thing, that's been allowed to fester, you know, and it's not been it's not been called out as it should have been called out. And it can it can be called out without saying we're going back into the EU, but just say this has been as a result because lets because you know certain certainty. So I know that K Starmer believes that Brexit was the stupidest thing any country's ever done to itself. And yet if you watched him exclusively as Prime Minister, you would not be certain of that That's it, isn't it? What are you certain that he's certain of Yeah, and you don't know because because the thing is his character doesn't allow us to see that, you know, he's a plain balanced sort of individual. but in today's climate, that's not that's not going to cut that's not going to cut it anymore. You know when it's coupled with coupled with the querulousness, the kind of real reluctance, almost a psychop pathological reluctance to make decisions, which everybody in the room where it happens has Well not everybody. I haven't spoken to everybody, but lots of people who are party to what happens in the room where it happens are are united in the in the shock at how un deceisive, how indecisive he is. and of course if you are indecisive, then you end up you turning because you're never certain enough about anything to see it through. Phil, take it as a compliment. I'm five minutes late for this. twenty two minutes after twelve, well, I think we can safely say that the word I was looking for is not queruless That does not mean what I thought it meant, which is kind of indecisive. Andrew points out that querulus actually is an adjective that describes someone who habitually complains or expresses dissatisfaction in a peevish, whining or fretful manner. I think the French word is Fage. It often applies to a person who chronically grumbles about minor grievances. Actually, that's fair to Nigel Farraage. He constantly grumbles about non existent grieances grievances. Andrew suggests that the word I was looking for is actually querouslessness Clistlessness No, I'm going to go with either circumspect orr wish he was that's not right. vacillating. He vacillates. He doesn't seem to be certain aboutb anything in terms of policy pronouncements mayaybe he's certain about vague ambitions, but not specific policy announcements. and that has to be part of the reason why premiership has come to a juddering halt after just two years. I don't have any calls at the moment on the question of whether or not you want a leadership election So take that as an invitation, a call to arms. Do you want to see Andy Burnham progress to Downing Street unchallenged or do you want to see someone challenge it in which case, who And why? zero three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three. And before we go to Julie and Plymouth, which we will do, I promise Judi, stay where you are. I have some fun to deal with. Shall we start with the misinformation that is neither A woke Oh no, this one is the one that is both a misedinformation and a woke watchatch I've stopped sulking over the fact that the Kirst armour has resigned sting got made within about ten minutes of it happening, Wh as I usually wait six months for mine, I'm just going to celebrate the ones that I did eventually get. So we'll begin with A misinformation Missed information. Thank you, Emily, but also a woke watch Whatatch? Ant he woke cop Calls for new rules amid storm over two tier policing. So if God forbid you were reading the Daily Mail this morning, what would you take away from that headline You take away the idea, I think, that an antioke cop agreed with The idea of two tier policing was going to do something about it, wouldn't you? Anti woke cop calls for new rules amid storm over two tier policing, which to be fair they've put in quotes, two tier policing What you would actually find, if you bothered to read into the story, was that he doesn't actually accept the idea and two tier policing at. He in fact said, I'm not naive. This is the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester, s Stephen Watson. I'm not naive to the fact that in the light of the murder of Henry Novak, this idea of two tier policing is widespread. I don't think it's justified, but I can understand where it's coming from. So can I make racist liars? So the headline gives you the impression that this antioke who's going to fix two tier policing, whereas if you read to the about the twelfth, thirteenth, fourteenth paragraph of the story, you'll actually learn that he doesn't think it even exists, which is a classic example of misinformation Misedinformation As is Well actually, I'll speak to Julie first. I've got two more One of them doubles up as an unhinged headline and one of them is a pure misedinformation. But first, Julie is in Plymouth, Julie. Which of the many, many questions I've asked today would you like to answer Oh hello James. first time speaking to you Long time listen now. Very welcome. Love your work. I'd just like to say first of all, that I'm the type of person that follows politics and But doesn't you social media very much? So I didn't even hear about the Rnt boy L nor did I? it I got it in my inbox for months from and I can tell because I can click on these messages and see what messages they've sent to the station before. So the people saying, whyy aren't you talking about the RM boys? and I'd click on it and it would be, you know Massive racists, big Nigel Farage fans, let's deport millions of people. go back far enough. they'd be wanging on about vaccines and five G phone masks calling COVID. that's how I knew it was real. I didn't realize how widespread it was. I'm not that sort of person, so I feel bad to that I had no idea until I heard you mention it. OkayK, down to business. I'm sad to see Kigo, but obviously we live in a democratic country, hopefully still. So I wish Mr. Burnham all the best and I will support Labour on the basis of do not want Th characters have want to ruin our country to be allowed in O Oammer was definitely certain that he wanted to turn the tank around That was stuck after fourteen years of the Tory government all up public. But that's a vague ambition. It's not a specific principle or policy I think it was for him because I think it was about stabilising, trying to bring the nation together, trying to bring international aairs together. trying to find our place on the stage trying to be more inclusive, cover as many sections of our society is possible, mayaybe that's the vagueness. But I don't feel he's done anything personally for me But I see these's done things So lots of the different groups set needed some support and help and acknowledgement Now that makes a better country for me. That's the way I view it. It wasn't obviously enough for the people that L division, don't want compromise. There was much of a vision, Judul Not reallybe I mean because he kept changing his mind. every time he announced something big, he unannounced it a few weeks or even days later It's an extraordinary list of things I'm going to run through it for you, but I hope you don't feel that I'm badgering you. stududent loans Local elections Digital ID, pub business rates, fararmers inheritance tax, winter fuel payments, welfare reform, the Grooming Gang's Innquiry, the Island of Stranger Comments, the two childild benefit capap, the Wpie Women Compensation, rights for workers and income tax threshold I can't get I can't get it out but there's a longer list of the things that he has done that are going to benefit many, many people. None of them are even vaguely controversial, really As soon as there's a bit of a controversy surrounding something or as soon as some peopleople question it he kind of does it again. Isn't it the loudest voices there, James? And it's like the right wing press and the Farages and journalists that you know, bow to that Well none of those things. Well then he has to hold his course. I mean, you can point at stuff that was ridiculous, like the fuss they made about his curry when they were trying to pretend that Boris Johnson wasn't a delinquent or the fuss they made about his spectacles and suits. You know, Nigel Farris stood on a stage and said, I bought my spectacles myself. I think at that point he'd alreadyrou I think he'd already trousered five million quid from a foreign based billionaire who uses a foreign name to do foreign business in a foreign country, hasasht to protect our borders. So there is always going to be evidence of how bonkers it is to be left wing in this country and pursuing or in power You can't just ignnore that long list of things that should have been principles, they should have been points of battle. They should have been things that he was certain about. He wasn't certain about any of them because he undid them all Well, I wasn't happy with some of them, but that he endnded them, and I wasn't happy with some of them he raised. but At the same time, I think sometimes the left wing of the Parliamentary Labour Party are disingenuous in the sense that you know, they want to make trouble and they won't compromise either. And you know, it's a difficult time works well. You're a generous person. you're clearly a generous person. And at the same time I recognize that, you know, he's not what the nation wants and I and because that's because of his paltte his personality palette there's something missing on top of the politics of it and quite what that was, I don't know, but probably the vacillation probably the indecision and the fact that albeit that he is possessed of personal integrity. he didn't actually in the final analysis demonstrate much political I don't want to say integrity, although it's probably the best word I could use, let's just say certainty I've got this statement from Volodyy M elensky, the leader of Ukraine marking Kist Stamma's resignation. It's quite moving actually. I'll share that with you. After the very latest headlines with Emelia Cots when we will also be catching up with a very powerful and moving story to mark the well, two things really, the fact that today is Windrush Day and the that Windrush cause is far from over. So back to our coverage of Kirst Stama's resignation imminently, but first, I feel it's right to mark Windrush Day and the ongoing struggle faced by that general generation of people as well as their families I'm still pursuing the justice that they so obviously deserve H's Amelia twelve thirty four is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Just taking a step back for a moment, although I very much doubt we'll be doing much else on LBC today, but covering The resignation of Kir Starmer and the myriad questions about how we ended up here as a country and be where we are likely to go next. But today is Windrush day You could perhaps be forgiven for thinking that the Windrush scandal had been satisfactorily resolved, spoiler alert categorically hasn't. and few people know more about that than Pauline Campbell, who is the lawyer at justustice for Windrush. does all of that work pro bono to support victims. I'm going to talk to Pauline first, but then I'm going to introduce you to Louise Huy, who's whose late father, Herbert is is a I mean a very poignant and powerful example of just how un resolved and unfinished much of the windrush business is. So Pauline, to begin with you Did you think The perhaps have been closed by now I would have liked it to have been, but it's not. It definitely isn't. If anything, things are exacerbating and getting worse. and that's the problem. So when we come to days like this, we want to celebrate, but we can't really do that because we know there's so much more work to do And what are the major areas that you want in which that work needs to be done. The biggest one is the lack of legal funding. That's been the ongoing problem that every single organisation and legal representative has been arguing for for so long. And it's like a broken record. We've been saying it over and over again that we need to be in line with the other schemes that are out there. We want compensation to be legally funded for those victims, for those people who caught up in this. So you're either pursuing conversation or you're not entirely happy with the sort of one size fits all settlement that the government has suggested. but unless you've got private money to fund A legal fight, you either have to suck it up or just be quiet and sit down. Yeah, or you wait for the ombudsman who can help, but the parliamentary and health ombudsman who can assist, but the problem is that they're snowed under everybody is and you can't get to the ombudsman until you go through your MP and that requires the MP filter, which also in itself takes months sometimes because MPs are so busy. they break for the summer. so it's very difficult to get through that process after you've already gone through the long appeal process within the scheme itself. U Louise, I know you're 're not really here today to pursue compensation. It's more that you want the story of your father Herbert to be more widely known. in some ways, it occurred to me when I was reading about him that he was a kind of early warning in some ways of what it would be like to live without documentation in this country because he was never really secure. He never owned his own house never had a bank account or consistent work. and partly as a consequence of that, his relationship with your mum broke down and you didn't get back in touch until you yourself became a Literally I was twenty three when we came back into contact And what sort of state was his life in then U He was in survival mode. The best way to explain my dad is survival mode. He's got no house No no income. No like He wasn't It didn't look great. He came here in sixty five born in Jamaica, so very much part of that movement and that generation worked out earlier than some of the victims of Windrush, that he didn't have the status that he presumed he had. and so he couldn't get on waiting lists, he couldn't get access to things that most of us take for granted. Literally, he couldn't get access to absolutely anything because all he has prove his status here is a stamp in his expired Jamaican passport. and that's never ever been sufficient evidence for anything to apply for benefits. Housing, employment anythingthing that you need to live Basically, he just didn't have it. So what would you do? sort of cash in hand? Cash job. We supported him. My brother and I have supported him over the years where we could do and He's been homeless He's lived in garages. But he was, I think seventy two when you real been living in your shed. So he was living in my garden shed We're seventy two. U Qite long short, I managed to get him a property with the local authority. U and he was so happy It was his first property, first house, first home, whatever you would like to call it, at age of seventy two Um But you couldn't get him apart. He still bank acc. No bank account, still no bank account, still no contracts, no phone contracts, no line of credit, no private pensions, no investments, nothing. abbsolutely nothing. My dad left this world with one suitcase and a suitcase of clothes and a briefcase full of documentations which I found Yeah and which I realised that was part of wind Rush generation. Do you look back and obviously you've been on a crash course since you realised your dad was part of that movement of people, movement of humans Do you look back and think that this was just all a terrible accident a sort of institutional or governmental accident or do you think that your father was a victim of something more sinister? Absolutely, he's a victim of something more sinister. It's not an accident. This is not an accident. done this on purpose to these people you've bought them here. They've helped rebuild your country And then you just treat them so disgracefully Literally and my dad is not the only one in this situation. There's hundreds, if not thousands of people even living like this in this day and age There was a fateful family trip to Jamaica, wasn't there? Yeah What happened then? So twenty fifteen, we went back to Jamaica or my dad. First time dad had been back First time dad's been back to Jamica since he was here U we had We had gone with my son who has shared a different surname to me as well We The way that we got to travel there was I couldn't get a UK passport. There was absolutely no records of Dad. I ran home office and got passed from pillar to post, literally so many times, no records of dad So I had to go to the Jamaican High Commission getet an emergency certificate to travel with him which I had to prove where we were staying, had to give all the details of what we was doing. When we arrived back in Heathrow, we both got detained. Dad's got detained because he hasn't got correct documentation and I got detained because my surname's different to my sonss I think we was there for over six to seven hours trying to k it out, like we had no documentation. I don't know how we even got out of there if I' all honesty with you. I have no idea how did he cope with that My dad, as husband' pooling. He's so resilient. He had to be. He was so strong He was amazing. He was very cold though. He was very cold hearted, was very emotionless. he'd had to build walls around him. He Literally protect himself from the world. But of course that would impact on his relationships with others. Literally It affected us as a family, my older brother as well. It affected a relationship with him It it's affected everything And if I'm honest with you, if dad was still alive, I wouldn't even be here today because the embarrassment that my dad must have felt living like that is horrendous. And. And it's not okay, it's not okay. It was something done to him, not something he had any responsse. Exactly that whatsoever I How many How many Herberts are there still waiting for justice Pauling? There's hundreds and the difficulty that we have is that now I am representing Louise and her late father. I have a journey as all my legal colleagues have proving that something happened to Herbert that entitles him to justice, not money, compensation, but justice And I know the hurdle that we've got in front of us because the scheme is so rigid, it's going to want me to produce documentary evidence that Herbert lost out because of his lack of UK status. And the paper trail I know is going to be virtually impossible to find. putting in freedom of information. I'm going to do everything I can to see if we can get some form of justice for him. But because of the way the scheme is done, the rigidity of it We have to see what we get back. And if there is no paperwork to link into Herbert's lack and his treatment It's unlikely that we will overcome the threshold. Well, I mean, that's the terrifying thing, isn't it? in that you know we wouldn't even know about hera if he hadn't passed away in February of last year because as Louis said, his pride wouldn't have allowed him to come forward and describe his own plight. so we will never know. very proud may be in exactly the same place. And now that we're in the political regime that we are in in this country It's taken people even more into their shellves because they're frightened that if they do come forward, they will be threatened with deportation and they're terrified of what will happen to them if they're going to put themselves out there to be seen. They're very frightened of what to do. So this is another thing we have to deal with with the political regime that we're in right now And we know sixty six people died while awaiting conversation. What we'll never know is how many people either didn't know they were entitled to it or who passed away having not actually got around to coming forward But the key is that it doesn't matter how bad it is or how difficult it will be. The key is that we just keep fighting and we never give up to find justice for the herbits of this world So legal funding for claimants, the lowering of the burden of proof for compensation, simplification of that process, the compensation process and a streamlining of it. You can find out more about the work that justice for Windrush, which the number four are doing and continuue to do. But for you, Louise, I mean, A, you have very little expectation of receiving any financial compensation and neither are you I don't think particularly bothered by it. Tell me what it is that you do want. I just want acknowledgement that they've done wrong by my dad and all the other people that they've done wrong by her Just hold your hands up, own up you've done wrong. actually done and I don't know if it's intention need it you've done this, but Yeah, you've done it. it's done. the damage is done. So that his legacy is more than that su. It's more than that M more than that Did he have a good relationship with your son? Fantastic relationship with my son. Absolutely fantastic relationship. That's the only time you saw my dad's smile. when he was with my son Really Yeah, absolutely the same time you sort of emotion Well, then he left much more than just that suitcase, didn't he Louise, thank you. Thank you Cine. You know we're always here to help on that. Thank you James Even on days like today slightly overtaken by the news, but this stuff's important. God bless you both. Thank you very much. It's twelve hundred forty five Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building. you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog, H back on its last leg, If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support Call one eight hundred Granger, click Granger d. com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done It's twelve forty eight and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. As I said, find out more about the work that Pauline does on behalf of people like Louise at J as Google Justice four Windrush with the number for, the figure for in the middle of it. As promised, here is what Volodyy M elensky had to say this morning, following the resignation of Kir Stara Kia, thank you for all our cooperation, your support and the joint decisions that have helped make our Europe and our protection of life stronger The United Kingdom has been is and will remain among the world's leaders. Here in Ukraine, we deeply value Britain and every meeting and every conversation we have had has always been filled with real substance Thank you for always being in touch, always engaged and always striving to do what is needed and what will truly help. I wish the United Kingdom and all British people every success as well as realisation of your national goals. We have confidence in Britain. K You were always a welcome guest in Ukraine. It was a rare moment of what felt like national unity, admittedly. It was before we found out that one of Nigel Farage's closest friends and proteges was secretly taking money from a Kremlin stooge in return for polluting our political discourse. And you'd have to sort of, I suppose just forget for a moment that the politician Nigel Farage admires most in the world is Vladimir Putin Because the response to Ukraine and the illegal invasion thereof felt like a real moment, didn't it of national unity. Even Boris Johnson managed to get it right. Ag, as long as you can forget that he put the son of a KGB spy in the House of Lords and disappeared on his way back from a NATO summit to attend a party being thrown by both the father and the son But heho, these are small details, perhaps we should just cling to the Smemblance of unity that emerged in the wake of that hideous invasion and forget all the people who sometimes seem to be closer to Russian interests than British ones who now Operate within British politics. It is ten minutes to one. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I've got a missed information for you, but it's a good one as well because it tallies directly with something we actually did last week. So both for misinformation Missedinformation. Thank you, Emily, and an unhinged headline Unhinged headline! The woke Kango that wants to cull almost every wild pony on Dartmoore and won't even speak to the people fighting to save their lives is a headline in the Daily Mail today, which makes you wonder why they didn't do what I suggested you do last week and just go to natural England's website at gov dot UK and read about what they have to say on the subject of this absolute non story Guy Schrubsld the Environmental campaigner and best selling author explained to us in glorious teechnicolor why this is a load of old nonsense. But unfortunately the memo didn't get to the editorial floor of the Daily Mail, so I'll do it for them This is from Natural England. on the sixteenth of June, as in six days ago Recent media coverage has suggested that Natural England has recommended a couple of ponies on Darmor. This is categorically not true, nor is it true to suggest any scheme has been designed with the aim of achieving this. I don't know. is that is that clear enough for you? Is that equivocal unequivocal enough for you Not apparently for the Daily Mail, who have managed to turn it into a classic example of a misedinformation Medformation I've got another one for you, but it might have to wait until tomorrow, because Jane is in Camden. Jane, which of the many brilliant questions I've asked today would you most like to answer? Anoon, James, it's a pleasure to speak to you again. M. Can I just start I thanking Louise and her father, her late father Herbert for his contribution to this country. and I think, you know, All of us living in the UK would not be or would not have the infrastructure and the facilities that we have. W it not for the Windrush community coming over here. So I really do want to extend my thanks and I hope that they' that they are recognised Yeah, I don't want put that out there I'm hoping not to be too greedy, but I'm guessing in response to your questions, I would like to have a go at both of them really. But quickly. So I think the issues with Sama, what has gone wrong? I mean personally I am disappointed that he has resigned and it does sit need with me the way that we now have a politics where you can just shove one person out and you just bring another person in. And I do like Andy Burnham, but I do think here the optics just isn't great. This looks at Labour Party wanting to set the very mess And I just he wants to Well, okay, so why are they bringing Burnham in? Well, they're bringing Burnem in because they know if Kars stays in or they feel that if Kiars stays in, potentially they're going to get slaughtered at the next general election. Yeah. So I think that's where I'm coming from. You know, are they doing this for the good of the country or are they doing this for the good of the party? It can be both can dont I don't want to quibble unduly, but it can be both. I mean, if you know, keeping The far right out of power is a top priority. That's for the good of the country, and it can only really be achieved by having a change of leader would be the argument, wouldn't it And Burnham demonstrated demonstrated in Makerfield that he has at this point in the political cycle. He has a he has a bit of a gift for delivering the undeliverable. I think that's a fair counter, but I still think optically, people will look at this and they will they won't look at it like that. They will probably look at this is a Burnham campaign and this is for the Labour Party. But that isn't the sole reason why I guess I've just thrown that point in. I think for Kia, where it's gone wrong with the flip flopping about And it's very difficult for him be across that detail all of the time, but I think that he has struggled with that. And in a sense, when you are Prime Minister the buck stops with you and that then comes down to how you kind of control the things around you. And I suppose to some respect, he has to manage know he can't control everything all of the time, but I think that's where some of the slip flopping has happened where perhaps he hasn't been across the detail as much as he should have been. That was the thing I thought we could rely on him for personally. I thought you he's not going to be able to do the star dust and the tap dancing and what have you, but he will be absolutely in a way that you expect a lawyer to be He will be absolutely across the detail and then because he has such a good grasp of detail, when he moves, he will move decisively and he will move permanently. And sadly, I mean, I think you're being too kind. None of those things turned out to be true I think I think some of it, you do have to be superhuman. And I think that lack of detail and that lack of micromanaging to an extent has led to the poor decision making. I mean, look at Mandolen for heaven's skake. I mean, what all of the rest of us could see that a mile off, don't do it, but yet he still did it Well actually again I didn to be that guy. I mean, all of the people who were the loudest retrospective critics of that appointment thought it was a strokeer flipping diplomatic genius at the time. Didn't they? I mean, you may have seen through it. I don't think I can give myself that particular accolade. I mean everyone from Michael Gove to Nigel Farage were talking about what a brilliant appointment it was to put Mandelson in the embassy in Washington, but hey ho How that world turns. So I mean, that is as negative as you are minded to be this morning, which is perfectly reasonable, but just that he didn't really have a great grasp of the detail Yes, I think so.s not a great grasp for the detail, which has led to poor decision making. But in terms of Burnham coming in, I think he has a very, very short time and stuff around. And if he doesn't, they will have him out So I think that the weight is going to be on his shoulders and all of these issues Stara was trying to deal with are still going to be there for Burnham. So I have no idea immigration oddly exxcept immigration, which isations around that. Yeah, I know. I mean how many people are aware of the fact that we could by the time of the next general election actually have more people. Leaving the country then coming in. You will actually have reduced immigration so completely that net migration moves into the negative. I've got time to squeeze in one more call, the last of the day and it's going to be Stew in Southampton. Stew, what's it going to be Good afternoon, James. It's going to be no particular fan of Starmer, labour supporter, wanted him to stay Did you? Dan Jarvis is the man. The steely eyed messenger of death. D Hees my go, I've got to stop saying that because it could actually become a bit of a millstone around his neck, couldn't it? I don't know if they sort of average Average voter wants a stee eyed messenger of death. I do. Let's talk about the average voter. We are in the fight of our lives here. Let's not you know mince our words We are in such dangerous times and I just feel a figurehead, ex military, ticks all the boxes, familyily guy, really good local MP Um has had hardships, but he's done tours of duty, you know, he's that, you know, he's the real's the real deal. don't I mean, that' all year round. Yeah, I mean, well, we'll see, won't we? I mean it's probably not I imagine it willll be clear by the end of the week whether or not anybody else is going to have a tilt at it. but they've got until july the ninth to make their minds out. I think I'd like to see some sort of battle, but as you remind us only against a really meaningful opposition. I think in some ways the worst thing that could happen would be for a complete non entity to come forward