The end of open globalization

This is a Global Player original podcast ten hundred three is the time. Here's a very strange feeling that I have bubbling away inside me No need to call the nurse at this point in proceedings. And I don't know how your brain works I was looking at some coverage in some newspapers and happily it's given us an unhinged headline of the successful capture. of what's called a shadow tanker, a Russian shadow tanker, extraordinary daring d undertaken by by the British military and hopefully a taste of things to come when it stands when it comes to standing up to Russia and their hideous attempts to circumvent sanctions and international law And it occurred to me that God some people work hard to see the negative, don't they In good news. You can't I mean I'll give you some more examples of it shortly, but you can't ever admit that somebody to whom you are politically opposed or about whom you have reservations, you can't ever admit that they've done something good. It's a doozy of an unhinged headline. I'll share that with you a little later in the programme. but Royal Marine commandos and officers from the National Crime Agency literally took control of a vessel in the middle of the sea in the early hours of Sunday morning. I mean with complete success, no casualties and absolute A That's success. but hey, someone will find a negative. and I don't think it would be quite as pathetic to look at what Kistara has announced this morning and think whoo can we find? who says no? Wh doesn't like it? because there will be there will be some What's the word that I want? valid reservations. People may be letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. they may be worried about the logistics, they may be worried about the detail, they may be worried about delivery. whatever you want to call it and they would be wrong This is posossibly going to be Kir Stammer's greatest legacy It is bold. it is comprehensive It may have gone a little further than some people wanted, but I would rather with legislation like this that things go too far than not far enough, and it will potentially impmprove and even save the lives of countless children. We are he is removing a cancer from the body politic. He is detoxifying bloodstream of our young people And it's taken me a while to get to this position, almost as long as it's taken Kir Starma And the reason for that is that like you, I look at social media usage through the lens of my own experiences, which were, until Elon Musk bought Twitter, largely pleasant and benign And albeit that there were occasions where I found myself thinking, gosh, I should probably go out there and do something less boring instead or take up bird watching or commune with nature a little more or stop Um you know, constantly engaging with people who aren't worthy of one's time. This is going back a long, long way. I didn't have negatives. And for reasons that I will never fully understand, but I'm almost certain that the credit lies with Mrs. O'Brien My children who are absolutely of the age where you could have expected the bad stuff to happen. U that were not victims to social media, have not been plagued by or hurt by social media. So you come at the story, you come at this story. I think very, very closely attached to your most personal experience. And the problem, and whenever I say, my children have not been affected by it unduly, I always cross my fingers because I don't know for sure You know, none of us do The massive majority of children having the worst imaginable experiences on social media are doing so in a world that their parents know nothing about. And this, I think is the point And this is why I greet today's announcement with close to undiluted enthusiasm and order line Joy Eight minutes after Ton is the time. And I'll tell you why I can tell you things that will make your hair stand on end, some of which you will be aware of, some of which you won't My wife is a psychotherapist and works entirely with children And that means that she has exposed herself to the technologies and what they are capable of doing in ways that still shock me as someone who talks about them for a living a sort of flaw in the media model there But some of the examples she's mentioned Make me want to cry for young people today that there is, for example, an incredibly popular subculture on there that encourages self harm It doesn't just encourage self harm, it glamorizes, it fetishizes self harm. There is footage of a young person walking down a tree lined avenue with beautiful music playing in the background. And in the middle of that process and there's a trigger warning here And remember, I'm fifty four years old and I'm talking to you. I'm not sure how old you are, but you're older than the people in these videos. They're all at school at the moment And I'm issuing a trigger warning to you. about something I'm about to say on the radio particularly if you have Eience or knowledge of self harm, I'm issuing a trigger warning to you as a fully fledged functioning adult about something I'm about to say on the radio Because there's no trigger warnings on social media And this stuff, if it pops up in your algorithm and you find yourself watching it for a few more seconds than your average engagement then they will pump it into your phone day and night constantly. But let me tell you what I always do that when there's something on the horizon that I don't really want to say out loud, don't I? Distract myself deliberately are good warning So a young woman teeenage girl will be walking down a beautiful bucolic Idl, a tree lined avenue, birds tweeting in the trees music playing in the background and she will be beautiful and she will be dressed in flowing robes and looking ethereal and magical. And as she walks down this idealised image She will cut herself in a way that is designed to look appealing and attractive and I could weep telling you that I could weep like the fathers and mothers we've spoken to on this programe who've spoken to us about what it's like to have a child who's self harmed. I could weep for the fathers and mothers who've spoken to us on this well I could weep for their children first, foremost I could weaep for the peopleople've told us what it's like to deal with eating disorders because people who are my age grew up aware of these practices, self harm eating disorders and other conditions. We grew up in a world where there wasn't really anybody out there telling you to do it Telling you it was cool, telling you it was great. and they do something else as well, these communities, these worlds they pre engineer if that's the word. They reverse engineer objection So you are told that if somebody tries to stop you doing this. and this would apply to eating disorders and to self harm and possibly to other things They'll tell you that if somebody tries to stop you doing this than they are denying you The beauty that is depicted in those images, in those videos, in those films Put your hand up if that's new to you not if you're driving, obviously. I'm talking mostly metaphorically. If you didn't know that that stuff was I mean, literally a single click away Turn on, tune in Freakout a single click away. and once it starts, It's almost impossible to stop it And it does the same with suicide They glamorize, they fetishize suicide. and the platforms The adults, the humans, because I think we use the word platforms a little bit too much, the humans who profit from this stuff done next to nothing to stop it. It would be hard enough for a fully fledged adult to deal with untrammeled and unfiltered access to these kind of horror shows But we have been allowing our children to wallow in it. unchecked, unschaperoneed, unaided and largely unaware. Yeah I'm sorry that it took me a while to come to this position because I think I should have been A little bit ahead of the curve, ont it I should have been calling for this in much more explicit and uncertain term and certain terms. for a little bit longer, but I'm like you. I base my positions on My personal experience, even though I have this job, which means that Every day I have access potentially to one and a half million diverse and different personal opinions. But the more you look into this, the sicker it is and that That's the extremes Then you come to the shallower end that can be just as damaging J as dangerous Just that the obsession with appearance, the obsession with status, the entirely unrealistic comparisons to people who don't actually exist. They just put up false and fallacious depictions of themselves on social media. The pursuit, the ludicrous pursuit, the damaging, dangerous pursuit of some weird form of physical perfection And these children are so young They're so young that sometimes the thirsts that they are sating and the appetites that they' are feeding are not as is the case with most adults, a consequence of trauma Childhood trauma, that is the trauma. the trauma is the interaction with social media The thing about boarding school, I've said this to you a few times. is that you can Never close the door when you get home at the end of the day because home is school and school is home And that is part of the reason why so many of us emerge emotionally detached and what we like to call a thick skin is in fact a form of emotional absence becausecause that's what you have to become in order to survive What social media has done is rob every child in the world or every child in our world of the ability to close the door when they get home at the end of the day and at least not have to deal with this stuff until We go back to school tomorrow Because even if you manage not to look at it, you know it's there You know it's there You know, I mean, most normal people can't walk past a door when they know other people are talking about them on the other side of the door without pausing to put your ear to the keyhole And by normal people, I mean, people who don't do this kind of thing for a living Kids can't do that. Th think what you were like when you were fifteen. if you knew that people were talking about you somewhere else Imagine having the ability at the age of fifteen to genuinely not care about that Massively unrealistic. massively unrealistic Um So that's quite a dull opening, isn't it? because I'm doing something I can't remember doing And I'm suggesting to you that this is I mean, of course, it is vulnerable to letting the perfect be the enemy of the good but the platforms a people that run the platforms have not just failed utterly to do anything about this They have encouraged it, they have exploited our children, and they have profited from it And although you might have woken up this morning and found yourself thinking, well, that's a bit odd. My children use YouTube to revise There are some excellent tutorials on there that have really helped them with their GCSE revision this summer That will find a new home That will, that will migrate to a safer place that teachers and parents are much more aware of, much more okay with And yes, of course children will like water find littleittle gaps to seep through and new platforms that are currently not even Possessedive names we know will spring up and harvest some of these people, but you don't Turn down a saucepan when you're in a boat that's sinking and you decide to help bail it out You don't say no, I'll just wait for a bucket, please, or I'll wait for the lifeguards to arrive. I'll wait for the RNLI You start trying to get as much water out of that boat as you can. I thought of David Hockney, would you believe when I was preparing to talk about this this morning, and the fact that He was, I think, was he almost eighty nine when he died and he smoked like a chimney until the very end. Nobody, sensible, normal Intelligent would cite David Hockney as a reason why smoking is not bad for you Nobody would ever say, Well, hang on a minute. Did David Hkney was nearly ninety when he died and he smoked like a trooper. No one would ever say, therefore, it must all be lies. All this stuff about lung cancer, all this stuff about emphysema, all this stuff about smoking related illness. Look at David Hawockney. He was nearly ninety. And he smoked like a chimney No one does that, right? anymore? No one does that anymore. So you don't look at social media and say to yourself, well I'm allright. My kids seem okay Butd her therefore this must all be a moral panic. this must all be Um This must all be exaggerated And that phrase there, that double worded phrase moral panic is I think at the heart of why our responses to this are so strange Moral panic Video didn't kill the radio star. videoideo games didn't end civilization as we know it. Violent films didn't turn us all into feral murderers. None of the things that certain sort of commentators and People largely of the right are always warning us or the end of civilization but none of it came to pass Social media was and is all of those things. It has positives, it has good sides, it has wonderful opportunities for people who might otherwise be alienated and isolated to engage with the world in ways that they wouldn't ever be able to do so. And I don't want to be the one to tell those people that they just have to suck it up for the benefit of the greater good. That's the way society works. That's the way governments work and that's the way the law works You do something because It's the right thing to do and it prioritizes the needs and the welfare of the most vulnerable members of our society, our population, our children. over. Ebody else up to end including the humans, not the platforms exxploit that hurt and that profit from our children's pain and misery So I can't remember the last time we did a photo like this But join me this morning in applauding the government, applauding Kirirstara and explaining why you welcome and of course Tell me why you don't well commit, but I've set my stall out, I think fairly comprehensively U So do feel free to treat it like a coconut shine and start lobbing your balls in my direction But I can't remember the last time I actually felt in my soul Prime Minister had done something absolutely wonderful Absolutely wonderful. unless you worry about football ifification or bias or anything like that, I think he's dropped more balls Th than the worst goalkeeper in the World Cup. I think Kir Stama has been an almost crushing disappointment as Prime Minister, in a million different ways And that is why I still can't quite Allow myself to relax into this one because they could still fluff it. they could still mess it up quite see a U turn taking place, but it's takaking place on almost everything else that that some of us have greeted warmly when it was originally announced. I can't see them undoing this. They seem to have spent a lot of time putting it together and I am here for your quibbles and your caveats, but I don't think that they will undermine the point about the Perfect being the enemy of the good I just want today you to tell me why you're glad about this. You can draw upon personal experiences you can draw upon broader understandings, you can draw upon knowledge. I just want you to tell me why you're glad about this and whether you agree with me that this will actually be Kir Stahmer's place in the history book This will be the one. This will be the thing that is always remembered and other countries will come in and will fall into place. Eventually, countries where children are allowed access to these hideous platforms will be countries that have you know, incredibly low ages of consent, countries that we look at and think are medieval The number you need iszero three, four, five, six zero sixzero nine seven three. And listen, I don't normally do this, but if you want to tell me why it's not good and why you don't well commit I I the number is the same, but I'm I don't think you're going to be able to change my mind. I normally revel in the fact that you can change my mind between ten and eleven every morning, but I don't think you'll change my mind on this one becausecause I'm not just analyzing it intellectually, I'm feeling it in my bones. And I'm thanking every God there is that this government has finally prioritized the welfare of children over the nonsense that's spouted by oligarchs and tech bros and simply said no You can't be trusted to do this yourself, so we are going to do it for you twentyenty three minutes after ten. It's almost as if you've been in bed for a year and you've forgotten how to use certain muscles. Is the word atrophy, Keith? Do they atrophy those muscles You sort of find yourself preparing to heap praise on Kia Starmer And then you're sort of lizard brain kicks in and goes, No, don't do that. don't do that. he'll mess it up He'll reverse Ferret, he'll do a U turn He I Yeah you feel it, right But I think this is a moment For almost undiluted enthusiasm because who here could not celebrate legislation designed to protect our children from the worst corners of the internet, all of them, all of it. There's no downside to this at all that won't be easily and quickly overcome He says, while reminding you of the phone number. Jane's in Campden, Jane, what would you like to say And James, how are you? Very wealth., very happy actually sururprisingly happy actually. The more I talked about that in the introduction, the happier I got You and me both. Yeah, I mean, we're over the moon about it. We've had to battle quite hard with our daughter who's thirteen to educate her about the use of social media and I spotted it in the very kind of I mean, maybe when it was about eleven or twelve, you know her friends got a phone, she wanted a phone. we did all that kind of thing of o you know, we need to make sure that you're safe online. so we did everything that we could. And I found that know, even before she got into the Instagrams and stuff like that, Weve noticed that she was just going up to her room, shutting her door and she was in there all day on the phone and I thought just need to stop now. So we did take the phone off of her and I just witnessed her have a complete meltdown kind of in a way that maybe a drug addict would behave if you were to remove their drugs from them. And I just thought, my God, this is awful. We cannot we cannot allow this. and this went on, this battle, this battle And it got to the point where I kind of did a cursy or off and I wasn't proud of it, but I know that I had another phone. I actually smashed the phone in front of her. And I just saw her heart just break And I thoughtt we just can't, but it was actually that pinnacle moment that turned things around and you started to understand you were lucky in a way. I mean, did you ever did you ever doubt? Did you ever think maybe I'm the baddy here. Maybe all the time. Yeah, that's the thing. isn't That's what today changes is that it creates the context in which parents can do what you're doing. and parents that haven't been doing what you're doing will find it a lot easier to do so. And of course, even if they can't then Ideally and hopefully the technological changes being introduced will do the job for them I mean, I wouldn't say that things are perfect. She'll still go on, but we would have a conversation, but now said to her, lookook, there's a bam, And she just kind of shugged her shoulders and went fair enough, OK, that's fine. She said, actually, it will give me more time But actually now she's monitoring me because I'm a hypocrite. Yes No no, you absolutely are. I'm afraid. I wish I could offer you someds of comfort or defence, but you are Jane Camden, a massive hypocrite That's the next chapter in this story. That's the next chapter in this story. That is absolutely right. and I wish they would take it away from me, but actually I've now made a concerted effort to get her to police me because it started off and this is the other point I wanted to make. on these platforms, it starts off really nice. you know the first thing I could see was cake making and stuff to r Hant great. And then literally within maybe a week or so, it was, you, dogs being abused, women being abused, you know, stuff against people of color, it was it was all that kind of stuff that I just sa It' is a sewer. Yeah, and unfiltered. Absolutely unfiltered. And I'm fond of analogies. and one of the most obvious ones with this kind of thing is tobacco, albeit that one has physical consequences and one has mental consequences. But it's not as if we you know bann smoking for under sixteenams and then go, o well that's amazing. So it stops giving me Ccer does it on my sixteenth birthday. W incredible Biological creation we human beings are. So yeah, but we're not in that chapter today. Jane is giving us a little taste of course of what's next because if it is so damaging to people under sixteen And of course, remember that you know on your sixteenth birthday, you suddenly get access to all of these things. The calculation is that's the age which so much changes in your life and the optimism is built upon the idea that you'll be slightly better equipped to cope with all of that. I think that's actually true, by the way The difference between ten or eleven and jumping into this world unprompted and being sixteen and jumping into this s unprompted is immense. and some sixteen year olds will still suffer, will still fall, but most I think, the massive majority will not be hypnotized by it. in quite the same way. And look, it doesn't end with today's announcement. Hopefully it ends where it doesn't end ever. There's a constant recalibration, a constant evolution of this kind of thing to the point where and this is where I can say I've been telling you this for years, they won't do anything unless it costs them more do it than it does to not do it They will never, ever do anything unless it costs them more Not to do it, sorry, than it does to do it That's the only way you ever get them to do anything these people. It's so primive It's so feral and yet it's so simple and so true. I don't know that it used to be like this. I think you know companies that made an awful lot of money used to have some sort of social conscience, used to invest in diversity, equity and inclusion and research and development and the welfare of the workforce and the customer But not really, thinkink of tobacco and think of fossil fuels Because that is the triangle of which social media is point three I don't care how much damage it does to our customers. We're going to try to rinse them for everything they've got. Oh, and their children. And that's why today, albeit that there willll be quibbles and details to argue over, you cannot fault the central thrust of this announcement Half lastast ten, Dominic Ellis has your headlin ten thirty three is the time for my I don't think I'm the only one to do this, but I would say TikTok is toast, YouTube, Snapchat, Instagram, X, Reddit, Reddit, Facebook, Twitch. Kick and threads are all likely to be covered by this ban on social media for under sixteenens. We may and I don't know that we will necessarily, but we may move on to the logistics of it and the implementation of it. But at the moment I'm more interested in the sort of gut reaction to it, which has to be, in my humble opinion, has to be Positive. Let me read you some texts. David and Vishem are up next, but just let me get through a few of these texts as well. and I'm a Mat, there's another trigger warning here, and I'm not going to say anybody's name. I'm a man in my thirties. Towards the end of my twenties, I went through a breakup. Looking back, I realized it was a particularly toxic relationship, but at the time I was heartbroken I found a community online dedicated to self harm. The words they would use to describe the act were haaunting they would try to make it comical. They'd talk openly about it as if it wasn't a big deal. And I fell for it, unfortunately, thankfully not for long. If an adult in his twenties could find those places and fall for their lore, then I fear for children I also wonder how many children were in that community at the time and what might have happened to them since. No one sensible could ever be against this ban I agree with you, Neil, but if people are against it because they haven't been properly informed, then let's not hold it against them. We live, of course, in the age of the insensible Joanne writes, I recall being horribly bullied at school in the last century. Don't say that please Joann makes us feel ancient. And I'm only just realizing how much more terrorized or besieged I would have felt had there been interternet back then The lives of young people today in similar circumstances, but with access to the internet and messaging will literally have no let up ever No breathing space so long as their phone or their tablet is connected to the interternet. and I'd add even when it isn't You're living in fear of what might be going on U And yes, You know, some people will live a million miles away from these experiences and they get punished too But David Hockney smoked every day and lived to be eighty nine. No one says that we should rescind the smoking ban as a consequence of his experxperiences. David is in South End, David, what would you like to say? Hi James. I'm so relieved that this is coming in. I'm thirty four. I've grown up with social media, and all I can describe it as is it's an addiction. and it's like crack cocaine and it's been designed that way Every single time, I mean, imagine being a kid with this, beinging an adult, it's harder to bear with it. But as a kid, every single time you get that little beep, that little notification, Oh someone's trying to talk to me. someomeone wants to give me something. I've got a like, I've got this you can't get them away from it. and it's those dopamine hits again and again and again Just it it's a drug I'm so glad you've runung in because I've gone immediately for the out of limits. I've gone immediately for the hideous stuff, partly because that was the conversation I had with my wife this morning. But absolutely, even when you're doing relatively innocuous things It's addictive. I mean, it is addictive and the addiction is a problem in and of itself. It's not just the thing that you are addicted to. the content, the type of content that you're addicted to, which obviously in the case of self harm or eating disorders or bullying or the rest is troublesome deeply deeply troublesome. It's the very act of addiction itself. Being addicted to sweets is bad. Being addicted to I don't know if you Being addicted to exercise can be bad for you and exercise is good for you. so the act of addiction is absolutely central to this entire conversation n't it? Yeah, absolutely. mean, and it's constantly there. It's in your hands. And I think the difference with the phones and the iPads is that you can take them everywhere. before if someone with a addicted to TV, once you go outside, the TV isn't there any. so it's not available. These things are constantly there. What was that filmed? you remember? There was a documentary about ten years ago I watched it. I can't remember what it was called. and I mean when when we look back, when historians of the future look back on this, this will be one of the things that merits an entire chapter And of course not everybody saw it, but they interviewed loads of Silicon Valley seniors, loads of Silicon Valley players and I'm sure I didn't dream this. They all said I wouldn't let my own children anywhere near. the stuff that we're developing Yeah, I think I remember seeing that. But I mean, I came off social media about five years ago and I was quite a light user. But I could still see myself, I was scrolling and I was going, what am I doing? I'm just scrolling. I'm not looking at anything. This isn't adding anything to my life. So I came off it and within five days I was more aware, I was more attentive, I was more talkative, I was more energetic. I was more creative I canan't even imagine the damage this is doing. to the younger generation this is the point. This is what I'm trying to, this is what you've brought and I forgot is the innocuous stuff. So three hours of your life is gone watching if you're lucky watching videos or watching ping pong great feats of ping pong playing or watching what did I get into a while ago? and I caught myself thinking this is oh people putting fake parcels on their doorsteps. And then thieves come and try and steal them and they blow up and cover them in brightly colored powder. If you want to spend ten minutes a day doing that, that's fine. But if you suddenly notice youve spent three hours a day doing it, that's three hours of your life, you never get back every single day, forever Forever, andver the social dilemma of the film is called, the social dilemma And it did exactly that. You look back and think, our children their own children. They won't let their own children anywhere near it Anywhere near it And yet They have made billions out of getting our children addicted to it. Thank you, David. Vishanne is in grraz, Vishanne, what would you like to say? Hi, James I think I think it's a great step in the right direction, but my biggest concern is going to be the how of it And this is something that I would love for you to look at in detail over the course of the next year I don't feel like theg Are youre giving me homework, Vichanant? Sounds like you're giving me home, al right, fair enough. cararry on. I said to your research earlier that like anything, this is going to come down to the implementation of it now. I think the parallel that I drew with the normal laws and the legislation within the UK The police are overwhelmed, the courts are overwhelmed Now take that to the internet You've got algorithmic policing, which these social media companies get away with. They don't really care about it. And I think the plan that Ocom have laid out through like identity checks and fines and whatnot, you're treating symptoms and you're not dealing with it at the root cause And that's my concern. What fundamentally needs to happen is the legislation hopefully will go further at some point to actually deal with the algorithms that are feeding this content generation Yeah, I mean you're not what needs to happen. You're not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good, are you? You you're just pointing out that this is the beginning of a process, not the end. Yeah. And this is the challenge for me is because do we trust the government to do anything well at the moment? I don't know that I do And I think it's a great step, but I really, really want to understand what they intend to do beyond just legislation and these what I feel like a surface level ban. I think it's more than a surface level ban. fourour point seven million social media accounts were deactivated, removed or restricted in the first days after the ban went live in December last year in Australia A report from the Commissioner, the EastSafety Commissioner found that a substantial proportion of under sixteen is managed to keep their accounts or create new ones bypassing the age gating systems. and no one is pretending that that isn't going to happen here But a significant number of accounts had been removed. So that is progress. That is better than what was there before I agree I don't disagree with you. However, James, look, you're right in saying that it can be circumvented, but with AI and the way things have changed in terms of like search and the improvements in technology, you can go ask AI and it will list you literally within a few point nanoseconds. hundreds and thousands of apps, like you can access YouTube, you can access TikTok without ever having to log into to TikTok or YouTube or Instagram And so the technology is changing and the progression of development in this area is changing in access and content, which is why I want this to be dealt with at root level, by the companies that are putting social media content out there. I don't want it to be policed algorithmically. If you try have you ever tried to get in touch with a member of a support team for one of these social media platforms? It's next to impossible. I tried to complain about deliivery the other day That was hot that was hard enough Right. And could you imagine a child that's marginalized dealing with something and you're trying to help that child That's a really good point. It's a really issue for me. it's the root cause of what this is. And yes, the bands help don't think it's going to go far enough. So it needs to be a stepping stone to a larger discussion that we continue with far more stringent checks on the content and the companies that are actually in. Well t I think you work in the sector, right? Yes, I do. I could tell. But I think that we're back to and it's not lazy, I don't think. sometometimes a simple little phrase can encapsulate quite complicated issues, but until it costs them more, do nothing than it does to do the right thing, then nothing will actually change So this is the thing, it won't actually cost them more. I think the way that things are now it's very easy to say. And you've seen this in addresses where social media CEO's and mobuls have been grilled in the US and inquiries and senates. They just don't care. They have checks that they use as blanketserms, o, we have policing, we have this, we have algorithmic policing. We try and remove the content. ridiculous in the way that they do policing online and support online, especially on social media platforms. It's a massive gap and what needs to happen is these companies need to address algorithms they're using to feed this content to not just young people, adults as well. it's crazy in the way that it all works And what needs to happen is the legislation needs to push further for them to push these social media companies to address these issues at the level that they're putting it out. And that's why today, I mean, although these voices need to be heard, you don't say, well, look here's some flawses, some loopholes,'s some kids that have circumvented it, H's some evidence that it's not perfect. You don't take that as a reason to say let's not bother. You take that as a reason to say go further James, That's the point I'm making. Let's get to start pressing the comp the social media companies further then and hopefully this is the start of that and not the end of the conversation. Well, okay, we've implemented a ban. Let's see how it goes. No, it needs to continue further. Yeah. I mean, I can't argue with a single thing you've said. and that includes your sort of low level pessimism as well. albeit that you greet today's announcements, a little pessimism about the likelihood of the government being able and be minded to go further. We've seen some evidence of it and you know, this is the first thing that Kistarma has done explicitly involving standing up to the sort of new aristocracy, the techocracy or whatever you want to call it, the oligarchs who have replaced the Els and the dukes and the kings and the emperors as the people who control the universe, and he has said to them can take your technology and stick it where the sun don't shine. Now, loads and loads of children will be very, very keen to stay on there, which is where Vichan's points kick in And I don't have the I don't have the Latin as the late great Peter Cook might have said to comment on what you need to do to the algorithm But I would have thought that mean everyone's going to laugh at me now, but you just turn it off So in the same way with cookies, when you say no to cookies and it means that your online presence won't be bombarded with advertisements for trampolines because you bought a trampoline last month. And in fact, the one period of your life where you don't want to see advertisements of trampolines is a month after buying a trampoline. But of course, if that is on, if that technology is on, then the floodgates open you just probably remove the technology that says if they've shown they've demonstrated and this would apply to adults. they've demonstrated an interest in, for example, online racism thenen the technology that then fills their feed with online racism just gets disabled. No wonder Elon Musk is so worried about freedom of speech, Do me a favour. He's worried about having a few obstacles to his mission to spread Txic racism to every single corner of the planet. never mind the internet. ten forty six is the time ten forty nine is the time. This made me smile from Jake in Sheffield. James, please do buy trampolines. signigned the partner of Briie Page, Olympic trampoline champion. Also social media is awful. You won't know this, Jake, Nor will Branie, I imagine, I went trampolining with an Olympian a few years ago. I nearly broke her arm. I don't know if that bit came out on the actual film. someomewhere in the dim and distant corners of the internet, there will be footage of me Katriskell was her name, A absolute lovely woman and I went training with her for the um for the old trampoline, I obviously was rubbish at it. I think I did a forward roll in the air or something, but she was holding me at the time and didn't let go As I went over on the trampoline, I imagine if I'd broken the arm of an Olympian about a month before the game started A dear. And that's when we all thought the internet was fun, you know, it was all oh it's all just fun and games. Tim Berners Lee when he invented it had extraordinary visions and for a while it looked great, but then it happens everywhere in life. The bad people moved in and did bad things and we didn't notice they were bad at first. YouTube, who had a problem with YouTube when they first stumbled across it Maybe it was my clips or bits of this show that brought you into YouTube. and I let we lose. today, we probably see some of our numbers go down judging by Some of the things my children tell me it's Instagram where their clips are doing well at the moment, according to my own children. and of course we're in a building with lots of music stations as well that have big, big online presences that appeal to younger people than Necessarily we do. so there will be prices. But how can you not Welcome it, even if it is him Perfect Josephine speaks for many when she writes, My daughter is ten. I've got so tired of saying no social media, I feel like the government are finally supporting all parents, the parents who know about the dangers online and keep having to say no to their kids and the parents who don't really have a clue what their kids are doing and need the extra support. To be honest, the parents who also don't give us stuff what their kids are doing are going to be benefiting from this as well. All of our children are going to be better protected. and that means happier adults later Um crossed And of course the other element of that that we sometimes forget about is that the Um parents. who are not fully on top of things are not bad parents to point Joseph M three categories, parents who know. Parents who don't know but would be absolutely outraged and horrified if they did know, and then parents who probably wouldn't be that horrified because they're not very good parents All benefit from this. I always think of adolescents in the middle group. Do you remember the line? I think it was Stehen Graham that said it, was it? They thought we thought he was safe We thought he was safe in his room on his phone. We thought he was safe I wonder if Kemmy Bayenaott got around to watching that y. And I also wonder what fault she'll find in Well, no, Kammy Baenut will do two things with this announcement. She will either attack it without really being fully clear on what the problem is or she'll claim it was her idea all along. It's ten fifty two. I imagine that she would have done one or the other by the time we go home at one o'clock. Shall we take bets, Keith fif thousand two forty eight, willill Kemmy Badder not claim that it was her idea all along, or will she attack it for spurious and vague reasons You can text vote on that What's it going to be? attack or claim? Trish is impressed and Trish, what made you pick up the phone Hi Jen, to speak to you. I am literally celebrating today. I cannot tell you Well you have to. That's how it works. It's a phone intro show. You have to tell me, J. teeen of the eighties, loved it. No, I got my first phone at thirteen and that's because I was pregnant and I needed one.. I'm not really into all the social media all the rest of it, but I've worked as a teacher since nineteen ninety three And I literally I think other teachers will probably say the same. what how lives have changed for children with the introduction of a phone. Tell me. I'm going to do Jonathan Hate to the book that Hate Height My child my children who were adults now, they did have phones but they got black boes And even then my daughter went bonkers on texting and used all the credit up. So that was even on a map of a phone. My children had a play base childhood rather than a phone based one. And I've just witnessed so many things in schools. I've seen how bullyings entered into your home environment us and children addicted to things online that stop coming into school. I se them of falling asleep and exhausted because they don't sleep And it's just been a real shame to witness that you put that down to, you know the use of phones. it's just before that, it was a completely different situation But the one thing that I do want to talk about today, though I just had yourroduce say The adults are still will have their phones. and I've since left teaching, alth I do tutor and I've gone down the mental health route. But I just want the adults to remember your children need you and it doesn't take a lot to really give a child what they need and what they need is to be seen and to be heard to be validated and a small amount of time. and I didn't even really think of this myself as a mom until I started working one to one with children. The shift in a child when you've just listened to them with without any advice, without anything and just validated how they feel. And I really hope parents will take time to come off their own phones the adults well And just remember that now is the time that children will have more time when they're not doing all. It's your opportunity to step up. It's your opportunity please parents because I do have se it Yeah, Chren tell me, they speak to me and they tell me and I just think this is the really the good time now But you know something else even before Social media existed. We craved A parents's attention. notot in a bad way, notot in a look at me, mummy, look at me, mummy, no hands. But my dad was probably a workaholic Yeah. And I was thinking about this the other day, The times when he'd have an afternoon where he could play cricket with me in the garden or kick a ball around in the park. They were some of my and I wish it had happened every weekend, but it didn't because He did shift for the Sunday teelegraph on Saturday. so he he was always working, my dad and he was often away And and those are some of my most amazing memories. It felt like Christmas When Dad said, rightight, come on, let's get the ball. let's go to the park or get the get the get the bat out. let's play cricket and that's it.'s the same thing, even when the temptations of social media weren't there I'm fifty four years old, I can well up thinking about that today. So you know, these impacts and these potential damages They're there forever aren't they And I know people are busy, but I promise you, literally two, three or four minutes just listening to your child, reassuring them You know, just let them Read them a story. read them a story. Don't stick it on the flipping n the audible on the audio people do that now, do the bedtime story on the technology as well. And I mean they are the wisest and most amazing people and it's been a privilege for me to work with children. They's such a good company as well, aren't they? Although as you say, they've been sold, I mean a palamine who's a tennis coach, Trish, not far from your neck of the woods actually up north And he was in a school the other day and he said he doesn't do children that much. He mostly teaches adults, but he started doing some school based stuff and he went into some And he's quite a bouncy character, you know, He's kind of that's part of his appeal as a coach as he gets people going and he gets them all physical. and he's like, right, hi. He I'm John, What what's your name? And he said I'd never seen anything like a completely normal state school actually. And they just looked at him and they sort of and he goes up to one of them and shakes them by the hand and they're just sort of lethargic and barely not making eye contact, not. So he says to the teacher afterwards and the teacher goes, yeah, that's the Instagram generation. I don't think you've ever come across it before And my mate said, Well, I'm on Instagram. I do some tennis coaching stuff on Instagram. And he goes, Oh, well' tell them that They'll be really interested. just I don't have anything to say about that. It just sums something up, doesn't it Yeah they're standing in front of them getting ready to teach them tennis And they're not particularly interested. but if they knew he was on Instagram with quite a big following doing tennis stuff, then they'd be They'd be all over. That's just bizarre When you think about it It is. But I have to say all the ones I've worked with over the years, they're all amazing Yes. Yes. and they need a they need help. I mean, that's what we're supposed to do If you look after the children, then society can look after itself and we haven't been looking after the children It starts next year, which is some people argue not soon enough, but presumably they want to get it right. A block on functions which allow children It strangers to communicate with children under sixteen and restrictions on these functions Also on by default for under seventeen. So it's a sort of staggered entry into this universe rather than a cliff edge Overnight curfews and breraaks infinite scrolling for under eighteenens sound pie in the sky. But it's easily done. I mean is if they can engineer this stuff to fill your feed with the thing that is most likely to keep you on for one hundred fifty minutes rather than one hundred forty five minutes, then they can do almost anythingthing So don't let them argue that they can't or that the loopholes are a reason to avoid it. We wouldn't do that in any other area of life. And listen to Trish in Preston And take this opportunity to spend some more time with your children Three minutes after eleven. this is from Kef, not that one Man, you just made me burst into tears listening to you describe you and your dad. It made me think of me and mine And then my kids who I'm currently deferring activities with until tomorrow as I'm too busy today We've all been But if the reason why you are quotes busy end quotes, and this isn't the case of Keith is because you are three hours down on the day because you were spending it scrolling on social media. And here's a point I think that needs to be stressed and we'll move into this territory in the next hour. even if what you're looking at is not in and of itself harmful. So you're not looking at, you know racist provocations. You're not looking at very, very carefully engineered reel after re after real after real after re of people of colour committing crimes all over the world designed to make you think that only people of colour commit crimes, which is essentially where Nigel Farag's politics seems to be moving now because he's so spooked the threat to his base from a politician who's prepared to say out loud what everybody knows, Farage thinks and believes privately. We may do that as a phone in this week, if you're up for it. What's the difference between Rupert Lowe and Nigel Farrage sppoil alert there isn't any, but I'd be interested to know what you think on that. You can tell things are serious for Farrage because the daily mail has gone after Rupert Low today. They finally found a rich bigot that they're prepared not to like in public. So one big difference, I suppose between Rupert Low and Nigel Farrage is that Rupert Le made his own money. Whereas Nigel Farrage depends on secret donations from foreign based billionaires for his. whichich means you can't listen to what he's saying about this today. He's talking about VPN I I don't know whether he's taken millions of pounds from people that provide VPNs It's a little bit odd that he's responding to legislation designed to protect our children by bigging up the things that they could use to avoid the legislation designed to protect them. Nigel Farris is essentially providing free adverts So the technology tycoons could benefit from providing loopholes to children. a very odd intervention, unless of course he hass taken money secretly from the owners of those platforms of those technologies, which in which case, it wouldn't be orered at all. And we'll never know, will we? because we know he doesn't tell us If he took money a few years ago or just before deciding to return to politics, may have taken money from a VPN co just like he took money from a cryptocurrency tycoon. He may have taken money from Elon Musk. Well I don't know. I'm just asking questions Maybe he's takaking money from Elon Musk, which is why he's now tacking even further to the right because that's what Elon Musk wants I don't know. All we do know is that he takes money from very, very rich people and shortly afterwards announces policies that would benefit those very, very rich people That's what we know. That's just a fact. That's not an opinion, that's counting The rest asks just questions. Why would he be advertising today for free? If it is for free because of course he'll big up the IRA for eighty quid But why would he be advertising? For free the ways in which children can get around these technologies. I don't know. Phaps you could ask him if you ever get the chance for a nice fireside chat. And Tommmy Tickle six minutes after eleven is the time. So the addiction element of it Here's the thing and I make no apology for going in hard on the horrors at ten o'clock this morning because that's what was in the forefront of my mind. Partly because of the conversation that we had at home this morning And I actually said to my wife, I don't know about YouTube. That seems a bit extreme. and she explained to me what you can find things she's encountered in her work as a child psychotherapist that made my air stand on end And what you lose is as nothing compared to what you gain from an announcement So Let's talk about the addiction element of it that a couple of callers brought into play in the last h in the second half of the last hour Because I think this is quite hard to understand. Even as you begin to wonder whether I'm describing you, you sort of think, do you know maybe Maybe that's me. You got you can get addicted to Sdoku, right I mean you can get addicted to tetris, but not in a way, you close your eyes, you see those bloody bricks dropping down the screen. So Doug, I'm mildly addicted for want of a better word to the New York Times word games. and the I newspaper has some brilliant puzzles As well, thank you for all the nice comments about the interview that they published with me in Saturday's paper. although to be fair, most of the comments were about the photograph, which was very flattering, but it's almost as if you previously thought that I was a right old minger It's a brilliant pce, really nicely written I I don't know. I mean is the short answer, whether or not it's a dangerous addiction to be playing word games too much. know, I know it isn't. I'm being silly. That's the point. So I can be found playing cross playay now on the New York Times app. Whenever I've got a down moment, I've even done the thing I never used to do, which is play complete strangers. who you get sort of hooked up with by the technology But I love words. I'm not doing it when I should be working. I know I haven't got a problem. How do you know when you do? How do you know when you do Ohero three four five, sixzero six zero nine seven three And I want to focus Not exclusively, but I definitely want to draw your attention to The Kelsey. stuff or at least the innocuous stuff So you kind of get that sense. It was brilliantly described, wasn't it by I think it was Jane in Camden talking about her daughter having a complete meltdown when the phone was taken away. Now as an adult, that's never going to happen really. You might lose your phone, it might get nicked, you might drop it in the canal, but you'll get it back and you're not a child anymore. So you are ideally, hopefully a little bit better at regulating your emotions So you won't have a full on tantrum in the way that mostly We leave behind when we reach maturity, when we reach adulthood, not everybody. Some people seem to have tam trrumps for a living, but generally speaking, We're never going to be we're never going to have that phone wrenched out of our hand, either literally or metaphorically Deal with what is left behind And that I think is how you know that you're addicted If I took it away from you now, how would you cope? What would you do all day How would you fill all of those empty hours that you currently spend scrolling or I think about on Facebook or L watching films on reels or YouTube, how would you use that time? Because none of it really is nourishing, is it? Do you remember that caller? lastast time we were talking about Nets who just nailed something that we'd managed to miss despite having more phone ines about Nets than almost anything else over the last two years? And she talked about a form of fake fulfillment I found that absolutely revolutionary in my understanding of the issue. becausecause the great mystery for me and possibly for you or for people around my age is what do they do in their heads all day can they not be worrying about their absence of engagement with the world. How can they not be worrying about their lack of progress in the universe How can these kids not be conscious of their detachment from society? There's a million young people, not in education, employment or training. And the big mystery, what the hell do they do all day And the answer, I think, in large part, I'm almost retreating from my original observation that there'll be a million different answers to that question I think the answer is in large part that they are living a fake life. onnline You know, whether they are playing games or whether they are scrolling aimlessly and endlessly or not aimlessly, but scrolling endlessly through things There is a fake sense of engagement, a fake sense of achievement, a fake sense of fulfillment So they are addicts. They're not affected particularly by this legislation, but they're what happens to the next generation of children if this legislation is not enacted The level of addiction is such peopleople think they're living offline lives when they're spending their entire existent. Online That's extraordinary, right? So how do you Describe to a skeptic what addiction looks like, but not addiction to the horrible stuff that's encouraging you to hurt yourself Oh towards an eating disorder or suicidal ideation, the simple The simple commoditization of your attention Imagine a price on your attention Imagine if I was getting fifty p. An hour For everybody, I could keep listening to this programe I mean, I kind of am in a way, I suppose my job really is to try to keep you listening for as long as I possibly can. But imagine if I could actually reach parts of your brain that are beyond me that are a result of dopamine and chemical reactions. And I guess tablelog journism has kind of done it over the last fifty years by encouraging that two minutes of hate they're all well identified long before social media existed. Hate the immigrants, hate the refugees, hate the foreigners, hate the single mothers, hate the unemployed, hate the disabled, hate the unwelled, hate the Jewish people, hate the Muslims, hate the Sikhs Sorry, that's a party political broadcast for Nigel Farrag there I apologize What what would this show sound like if I could engineer it Leave morality, conscience, principle, leave it all at the door What would this show sound like if I could engineer it to just to make you addicted to this because I'm getting paid for every minute that you listen And I don't care what listening to this program is doing to you. And that's where social media has been now pretty much for a decade, at least All it is is you are a you are not the customer You are the commodity They are selling you to their advertisers You are not the customer You are the currency And that's why there is no limit on how much time they want you to spend on there They want you to spend twenty five hours a day on those ples twentyenty five hours a day is what they want And if you dig deep enough and look in the right places, they will tell you that They will tell you that. Why do you think they don't let their own children use the platforms that they profit from. They don't let their own children anywhere near them Because they want you on there for twenty five hours a day Human nature being what it is, sadly, a lot of the stuff that delivers the biggest numbers is not healthy Violence, of course All the ancient hatreds Got got to look in But some of the stuff that delivers twenty five hours a day of usage is Um dangerous or damaging. It's the act of addiction that has been commoditized If you want someone to be doing something for twenty five hours a day You don't care what draws them in or keeps them there. All you care about is that they are drawn in and kept there So How do you know you've got a problem? That's an ad though zero three four five sixzero six zero nine seven three or more pertinently for the conversation we're having today in response to the announcement by the Prime Minister How dod you know your child has got a problem I mean, how do you know I always think of that line and Carl has asked me to stop doing a liver puddly in accent. As a scousser, he wrote, Please stop I'm not sure I can help it. U Can't help it We thought he was safe. Stephven G. We thought he was safe. We thought he was safe We thought he was safe We thought he was safe. We thought he was safe. We thought he was safe. Your child's in the bedroom doing stuff. Was he addicted, that character? In that drama, I don't know wasn't the point of the drama. It's the point of this conversation We thought he was safe. He was actually addicted. How do you know ero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three because parents don't know That's not a criticism, you know, blame the parents You know, tabloid knee jerk reaction, volume three point zero, unless these days, unless the parents are white, in which case of course all the problems that their children have got are a consequence of anti white racism. W I ever be able to say that phrase without giggling, do you think Now we'll find out because we're going to be hearing it a lot more in the coming years got to save us all So But it's not about blaming the parent parents don't know three categories of pareing, the ones that know and are horrified, the ones that don't know, but would be horrified if they did know and the ones that really are not worthy of being parents at all who don't know and wouldn't care if they did because they've got their own problems, issues things going on. Diction. zero three, four, five, sixzero, sixzero nine seven three is the number you need. Jazz has been in touch. He says, if I missed something What's with James twenty five hours a day as opposed to twenty four? Yeah, you've missed something pretty huge and obvious, which I am not going to bother to explain to you So the tech companies, the social media platforms want your children on there ty five hours a day When you look back now, either looking at your own experience or your child's experience How did you know? when did you realize it was working? When did you realize it was working Oho three, four, five, sixzero six zo nine seven three It's twenty minutes after eleven. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. We haven't actually heard anything from the Prime Minister on this programme today. so perhaps a timely moment to reffresh our memories about the announcement part of the announcement made by Kirst Ama earlier Government is always about choices And it's clear to me that a full ban is the right choice I come to it as a parent myself I know exactly the fears that we all feel when we're thinking about this issue you know All I've ever wanted for my own children hand on heart is for them to be happy and for them to be safe. And I think that's what any parent wants But I ask the question now, do we truly believe that social media creates a happy environment for our children Do we truly believe that it's a place where they can feel safe I don't think I even need to answer those questions, do I Every parent can see it with their own eyes Social media is making children unhappy. It's making it easier for bullies to harass and abuse them. And it could even be harming their mental health Um I think you do need to answer those questions, actually Not not necessarily cursed armour, but I wonder whether we should So It's not just about when you realized addiction had kicked inself for your child, but tell me when you realized it wasn't making your child happy and all safe Because that's the line from adolescence, isn't it? And we do need to ask that question. We thought he was safe When did you realize he wasn't ero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. When did you realize she wasn't happy that social media wasn't something that you were being a bad parent by denying them access to Qite like some answers to that if you've got a moment Are those two words happy and safe? When because normally If it was a given that something was making our children unhappy or unsafe, we'd We'd be all over it And yet most parents haven't done it. When did you realize it wasn't making them happy and that they weren't safe? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. Kelvin is in Ipswich. Kelvin, what would you like to say? Morning, James? Hello Kelvin Yes, When did I realise s you didn't ring in to answer that question. O only just asked it, so you could tell me why you picked up the phone. Well, I've picked up the phone originally, obviously hearing the news I'm in Nottingham at the moment.'m on a job in Nottingham, but obviously I live down in East Anglia. I was listening to the news from Kirststaran this morning Yeah. Wp and with joy. Really? Couldn't have come soon enough for me I have a fourteen year old daughter who has been a prisoner of social media for the last few years. not her fault, I would hatily add. because myself and her mum also have been prisoners of social media. We've deactivated our accounts in the past and then slowly just, you know, just wheedled our ways back in and it's just got hold of us again I have a history of addiction, so I k I kick the drugs years and years ago, ten, fifteen years ago, I kicked the alcohol eight years ago this September. the one that is still causing me harm is the social media. and it's all come to a head this weekend funily enough U I'm forty eight years old. I go onto social media. I am the the green supporting leftty that is the subject of hate all over social media at the moment Im I was disgusted by the scenes in Belfast and I put something on social media to say so I was then receiving replies from people who were condoning the actions arrguments started. It ended up myself forty eight years old arranging to meet someone in Costa coffee for a fight on Saturday morning. My wife is beside herselves. Yeahes, she's she's You know So you can't that's you can't you can't help it Well I can help it I couldn't I'm getting drawn in. I'm saying to People I know and people I love I can see the radicalization happening on social media, you know with all this right wing, far right wing But you can't say you can't lecture your daughter on this. Exactly Oh M, what a mess So What I did this morning As soon as I heard that, I' I've arrived in Nottingham deactivated all my social media accounts then sent a message to our family group saying what I've done, and my daughter has come back and said she's done the same. Re For me, this is you know the best news I've had for a while. What do you think? I mean, is it a combination of you doing it and the government doing it that's madebe your daughter look at it because it's going to leave a big hole in her life? It will leave a massive hole in on. Do we know what she spend her time on there doing more than anything else, a bit of Facebook, but mostly TikTok. but just watching rubbish. She's not watching necessarily dangerous stuff or anything. She just can't turn it off. She can't look away. She's not arranging to meet people for a scrapping costa coffee or anything. No, she's not, no, no. thany She She's very, very intelligent, fourteen years old. and she's saying to me, Dad, I'm seeing things on here. the far right. I'm seeing things, you know, Nigel Fage this, Nigel Fage that. And she says she doesn't go looking for it, but the algorithms are, you know, they're pushing it into her feed 's up in front of her. And it's the same for me on Facebook. I block it, but it finds a way back in. Tell me about why? Be I mean because you've mentioned drugs and alcohol and I think even people that have never been addicted to either can actually get their head around the notion of addiction. You're addicted to the way it changes your mood. Just and I know it's going to be something similar with this, but when you know that it is going to do you damage because you've come off it before I mean, I've got two questions really. What's the threshold, Kelvin? the point at which you go, Cryky, I better pull the plug on this one in the past, not today. And then and then if you could, I think we've got time a quick word on on what it feels like when you Sense yourself slipping back in again And well if I could start with the later question. Yes, just st that feeling of slipping back in, so It's a slow culmination. it builds up really, really slowly I go on social media from a place of love, not from a place of hate. and this is what I was trying to say to my wife. I'm trying to defend what I see is right. So I'm going in and I'm putting defensive comments here, there, everywhere And it just it's just overtaken everything again because it feels like it's a losing battle because you're never going to win against the box the time, I feel so I don't know.' doing how to explain I know you're explaining it perfectly. You're despairing at what's going on in the world and not being able to do anything about it is making everything worse. Well, here's a thing start small So start at home Start by making your daughter's life better by doing stuff with I hope I'm not patronising you. No. Let's do stuff together. Ask her what she'd like to do with her dad when you come back to Ipswich from Nottingham. Let's do something this weekend, Darie. Let's let's I don't know, head out to Heatcham or something like that you know, stay in Suffolk Don't go to Norfolk. That'll just open up a whole new bag of.t. But do you see what I mean? because I understand what you're describing. You're describing a sense of powerlessness in the face of really bad stuff happening. But Twitter sounds like your drug ofoice, am I right U no, Facebook moreore so Facebook more Facebook because it's the people I love and care about So you're getting drawn in. Yeah Well you can't, you can't I mean, that is I mean Facebook isn't as hideously engineered as u As Twitter is these days Twitter. I know what I'm going to find under there. You don't go near there You just oready. If I was in a really bad mood and I want to have an argument with someone, I'd go on next. Yeah but on And you would not come away feeling better than you did before. No it feel worse. you get a little brief little kick, a brief high as it were of during. some typing and, you know, yeah So you are in an extraordinary situation where you understand entirely what's happening to your daughter and until now you've been close to powerless to stop it A man, I love. ye it's a very sad situation to be in. Yeah, but I mean there's millions of people in the same situation an odd Celvin, not very few of them are as self aware as you are or as honest as you are.ute you're. If I mean, listen, if you feel yourself slipping back in Would it be helpful to me to give you some advice on what you should do if you can't get offline for a while while you're on there Dt Don't offer your opinions. justust ask questions Just ask questions Ask for proof, ask for evidence, ask what that means. Don't say this that or the other. don't call people names. don't point out the hideousness of what they're doing. Just ask them questions and it may be less addictive. I hope so, but that's only in the, you know, in the bak glass emergency when you find yourself back on there and you don't want to be, but in order to avoid having arrangements to meet in costa cooffee for a scrap. You just ask questions Just ask questions. ask them what they mean by that. Ask for the proof of that. Ask them if they were aware, for example, that I don't know, if you're in the armed Forces, you already get priority on housing lists. Things like that Knowledge is power, not I don't know. I don't know if that I mean, ideally, you won't do that because you won't be on there at all. Well, that's the ideal and that's where it's sitting at the moment. so they're all gone. Let's keep it that way. but if you have a brief relapse, just stick to the questions, not the opinions. Good advice as always. I do my best, Kelvin. and good luck, mate. Stay safe. and good luck to all of you actually. eleven thirty one is the time. And if you are arranging to expecting to turn up and cost the coffee on Saturday for a fight, then I think you'll be on your own by the s, which has got to be a good thing. Here's Dominic Gallis with your headles It's eleven thirty four and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I notice from the LBC website. that a story I've never really found a way to talk about program has has developed in the in the last what is it? don't want I don't want to misrepresent. Yeahah, just this morning it has developed. Do you know who the putut me pusher is, the Pney pusher This is a jogger who pushed a woman into the path of a double decker bus on Partney Bridge. and then I mean, genuinely, amazingly We never heard another word about him since. They released some footage albeit quite grainy But I've had conversations about this off there on a slightly unhealthy number of occasions because A, I'm from West London and B, my theory has always been that he must have been somebody who Um I would not be an obvious suspect in this kind of case, someone who was possibly quite well to do because that's mean partly weird. Anyway, there's been a development. a multi millionaire banker I read on the LBC website with royal connections has been arrested in the hunt for the notorious Putney Pusher. It's a bit like the woman who put a cat in a bin except with a human being, utterly unprovoked and bizarre, impenetrable behaviour. Speaking of which, Natasha Clarkke and Will Guet are both here. Natasha are resident political expert and Will are resident tech experts. So no prizes for guessing why Are you going to reign on our parade? W, Guyot? It's tricky because yes. Yeah. throughroughout the morning, I've seen way more questions than answers.es. and I'm in a position where I'm seeing loads of Really key things that I think are quite simple as the tech nerd They're not being answered by the government and some certain assessments being made that don't tally with my understanding of reality. So Okay, we'll get to that. Before we do, Natasha, you've been in a technical briefing. And that's a bit of a statetch. Yeah. because I mean, this is what happens when politicians try to discuss algorithms and complex code and issues that Will Guot understands, but you and I probably don't. Yeah, definitely. so yes, I wasn't just in a briefing where they attempted to answer some of these questions. but I think what's happening today, James is that the Prime Minister is trying to announce something that he's not really quite ready to announce because If his legacy, because of the political issues around his future, now he knows that this policy, a ban on social media for under sixteenens, is on the surface popular. It's popular amongst parents, it's popular amongst teachers. And even children some children do want to see restrictions on social media. But they haven't ironed out exactly the details on what it will look like. Now. The people that were in that briefing that I was just on have a bit of a template, they do have a model. We've obviously put in place the online safety A. So things like age, verification, technology is and will can probably go into this more than I can, starting to emerge as something that is able to be used, that is being rolled out across tech platforms. But basically the government today is saying it's up to social media companies You've got to do this, you've got to sort out the technology for this. And it's for OCOM the regulators who we know are already having problems with enforcing the Oline Safety Act in terms of the fines, in terms of the rules that are already in place. It's going to be up to them to decide whether they feel that these social media companies are doing enough to keep kids off the platform. And even Kir Stama today at that press conference did openly admit Some kids will be able to get around this and he is not saying that all children will be able to be kept off social media, but he equated it to like alcohol. He said, look, just because some kids, some teenagers have beer and manage to getold their hands on a drink, does that mean that we should say, well actually what's the point in legislating against this at all? whichich is I think an argument that most people do agree with that he said, and he said to me in answer to my question, he said this is about cultural change. I want people in society to be able to say that social media should not be for children. And you know the number of parents I've heard from this morning who were simply saying, than goodness, because now I'm not the baddie I mean that so this is you're actually speaking to two very different constituencies in or at least KS Starmer is Well, your purview is the detail, is the tech, is the feasibility and plausibility. it's the facts, if you like. Whereas Kirirst Ama is in the business at least as much as the fact of engendering feelings, a feeling that our society now rejects Our society is now a place where we will approach children on social media in the same way that we would approach a fourteen year old drinking cider in the park. You're never going to stop it from happening, but we have a view on whether it should be happening or not. and that view I mean pretty close. I heard Nick saying similar as well from contributions this morning. prettyt closely unanimous So u giveive us some of the negatives. Let's begin with the age verification technology. and my s very predictable and lazy observation that they did it with pornography so for over eighteenens. whyy can't they do it with social media for over sixteen? Age verification doesn't really exist yet. That's the challenge. It's age prediction It's getting better on a monthly basis. But it's on a good day of' say Oh well. That's seventy percent accurate So That exists and I think we're going to see more of that rolled out But one of the perhaps the biggest things here when I've been looking at what's been said today I think as adults, we're going to have to spend more time proving we're adults on the internet. That's going to be one of the big things that comes from this announcement. You're going to have to prove you're an adult to use a chatbot you're gonna have to prove you're an adult to use Xbox live. You're going to have to prove you're an adult to use Discord or Twitch. There's loads of places now where this appears to be the answer and You're better at this, You two are both better at this than me because I'm just the tech guy. But surely, if we're trying to prove our age everywhere, wouldn't the national ID system make a lot of sense? But we don't rule that out. as Vanashi Rang in earlier was pointing out we need to see this as the beginning of a process, not an end. and there's quite a lot of dangers to seeing it as an end. Unfortunately, we live in A world where a twenty four hour new cycle is God and politics is supposed to deliver perfection yesterday. But this is the beginning of a process, not the end. Yeah, and you were talking earlier on about the park and the cider. I don't think the park has been fully defined yet as to what. this situation is because Um on the outside looking in I'm sort of seeing all sorts of other things now being bandied into this, the suggestion that Everybody would say it's admirable that you shouldn't be able to speak to a stranger online. But isn't a chatbot by definition a stranger? There's all sorts of bits that need to be As in not person. Yeah, as in not somebody you know, not somebody that you've typically engaged with. someome of them can go horrendously off pieced Wh's' terrible for OCD rumination, for example. when you're supposed to not indulge it if someone has got if a child has got OCD and they obsess they're looking for certainty of the time. And the worst thing you can do is is reassure them. They have to find a way to get through their ruminations, whereas AI or a chatbot will be constantly telling them all the things that their own doctor would tell them. they shouldn't be told. But I think we both know that Starmer's aim there is to stop predation. Oh yeah. And youll have I'm completely in agreement that something needs to be done. I work a lot with child safety organisations and I know I know that that's something that's quite important to a lot of people, but This is firsthand for me. It's the first real sort bit of government policy I pay huge attention to because it's the thing I totally understand and I totally grip. And as somebody that understands it and grips it, I'm still not gripping it. Yeah, I hear you. Do we know where they're taking their advice from No. Okay. Do we Natasha did you in this in this briefing and indeed, in the speech earlier today, the I don't know the sense that it has been motivated as much by politics as principle, I've heard you say a few times today. I think it is. and I think Kistama knows that he might not be in power for as long as he wants to. and we heard him allude to that in an interview that he gave last week where he admitted that he might not fight the next election. And we know this is something that actually when we first asked him about it, he was not one hundred percent ke to implement a full ban on social media so much so that actually there were reports a couple of weeks ago saying he's not going to do it. a full ban. No, he did not. as it was reported that he had reservations about it, which I think he did. And he has two teenage children, so he does understand some of the sort the worries of parents But he said at the press conference today that it's because he's listened to those parents and the campaigners, but I don't think we can also rule out the fact that it is a very popular policy. and that is exactly what I think he wants to try to cement his legacy for. And also the fact that we've got Australia who have already done it. and he says today that he is trying to learn some of the lessons, so we will be able to learn what they have have found out from their six months of the band. What would you have done differently from day one, well if I'd put you in charge of this? If I'd been put in charge of this, I'd be actually educating society about how to use smartphones. They're hugely powerful devices. None of us understand how to use them adults or kids. How would you do that? Because you can't do it on YouTube anymore There's a good point. But the compomputer for schoolchools Initiative, public broadcast I remember that the eighties, got lots of people into computers and helped parents understand something that at the time was absolutely revolutionary. So maybe there is something to be done about the responsible use of technology. That's where I'd start this conversation. Everybody's looking for guidance. They keep getting different bits of information from the government at the moment, not getting clear understanding of what they need to do. There's no precedent for what you describe is? I can't think of a country that does do it Dalai Lama ks about Where is this going? Eg, you know what show you're listening to. K Tks about mental hygiene Yeah being as important as physical hygiene. And you know, obviously we all know what physical hygiene is, but mental hygiene means taking moments to make sure that you've given your brain a bit of a war and you've given your soul a bit of a cleanse. and that is the danger is that people don't really realize how damaged their mental hygiene can be, even if they're not obviously addicted or they're not obviously accessing some of the worst stuff on there. It's the unrelenting chatter in the background, the knowledge that things are going on, the desperate sense that you need to be part of it. Celvin and Iips which put it better than I've heard almost anybody put it before, and that's the kind of thing that would once perhaps have fallen under the purview of public health broadcast. Yeah L those adverts from the seventies Yeah power and don't swim on a full stomach. Yeah those things. I mean, I don't know whether they worked, I was too young to remember them sort of a full stomach. My mum always said that though it work I never knew I never knew if I agree with it or not. Where For yesterdayayss, I went to a smartphone free school earlier this year and I was really interested to talk to the kids about sort of you know, that you talk about sort of mental health and a lot of them felt because they were all in it together and they all didn't have their smartphones at school. and it was a place where they were learning, they were not looking at what was going on with their friends or their peers or the online world. And Starmer today, I think for the first time, at least the first time I remember him mentioning it, that he does think that there is a correlation between mental health and smartphone use and that's something that academics have been talking about for the last decade and we've talked about before on your show and he is saying for the first time he thinks that we need to look more into that, which is interesting. I would bet my life I would bet mine too. Correlation between adult mental health and smartphone use social media access as well. Busy day for you, Wil Guite. Are you writing something for the website? Just finish something for the website. Fantastic. And then off to do something for YouTube. later this afternoon on the LBC You kids still see it until next spring. Yeah still available kids. I'll be answering a few questions and answers from listeners about the social media ban and what it means from half to also speaking to an expert from Australia as well, getting a few other guests on. branching out James going after to this of YouTube. About time, Jonathan will be pleased he's just been in touch to say give your tech guy more money How did you text that with that? Well, you have both your hands on the desk in this? My aentic chat boot took care of that. Exactly. just set a timer. Thank you. willill Gy LBC's tech. Guru and Natasha Clark LBC's political editor. The time now is eleven forty seven It's ten to twelve. you're listening to Jam OBrun on LBC where the announcement of the social media ban for under sixens has been very warmly greeted in most quarters, with caveats and reservations, not least worries about full on implementation. will' Gy, I think covering an awful lot of that territory I don't remember the last time something that I believed to be controversial received such almost unanimous approval E I am a victim of UK media. I don't know why. presumably because Kir Stalmer has done it, they have to look for a negative. but I was under the impression that this was a much more contested idea than appears to be the case. And I'd be a little bit reluctant to say that based entirely upon this programme but I heard Nick Ferrari say similar eararlier this morning, it seems that any parent with even a cursory understanding of what is going on is going to welcome it. And the parents who don't have the cursory understanding are probably not feeling very strongly one way or the other which leaves only people who aren't parents who can make relatively spurious. I don't want to be rude, but slight simplistic and predictable arguments about freedoms and liibertarianism and what have you, when they don't really recognise that the whole point about being a child is that you have fewer freedoms than an adult. That's the point And I think something else upon which we could almost all agree would be that adults probably need some help in this universe as well now, because the dangers not just of what you are accessing, but the addictive nature of that access are becoming impossible to ignore, too which I have two responses Oil and tobacco doesn't matter. that there is a worldwide consensus on something being bad. If the profits being made from it are big enough, they will fight tooth and nails. to continue pumping it into the body politic to continue pumping it into the air. continue pumping it into your lungs and in the case of social media to continue pumping it into your children's brains. It't I'm going to say this again because so many people miss the point O rather, so many people have been persuaded by epic multi billion dollar lobbying industries, often masquerading as think tanks. doesn't matter if everybody, if every scientist on the planet agrees that it is absolutely rancid, they won't stop. people to pretend that it isn't by politicians to insist that there's no such thing as man made climate change. They will move heaven and earth. They will fight tooth and nail. to continue harvesting the profits of Your grand's lung cancer O of Y' Child's asthma of in this case Your child's mental turmoil arrived at as a consequence of social media. George is in Nicasa in Cyprus, George. I think we've spoken before looking at the no on the screen. then I know why you're here. What do What do you want to share? We have James. You know what? first of all I love speaking to you U you're amazing. And look, I mean yes. I am just so, so overwhelmed. with this come I am now going to start spepeaking to children, a lot more about how they're going to now help others because You know what it is is that theseese dangers of social media that you know of course, our son Christopher suffered with, who was attacked by prators fififty day challenges And you know, he lost his life because of it And the same like us and all the other beree parents who were now thirty two of us in our group We all were chasing the same thing And you know, if we can't, we can't obviously help our children because they're up in the kingdom of heaven. but we could help We could help all the other children in this world. And we're just so pleased that the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago heard us speak and is now going to deliver. And that's what we're so pleased with. It' keeping children away from the exploitation of the dangerous social media because it's getting worse and worse by the day You must have been in a very strange place in recent years. I know you lost Christopher in twenty twenty two in March of twenty twenty two and to be introduced in such hideous circumstances to the reality of what was going on and then to sit there for four years George. Wing nothing. No change, no activity. I mean, I understand that you're welcome todayod's announcement, but it must have been a really weird experience to know how dangerous it is and to see no action and little appetite for the kind of meaningful change that has finally come around Yeah, absolutely. And the thing is it's been killing us every single day because you know, every single day that you sunrises, we know unfortunately, a lot more children are losing their lives. and not trying to attempt to try and get ends meet and we can't. that makes it really frustrating. But you know what, it's a good start. Look, this is not the ordder and end off becausecause you know we know that positively of children may not be able to follow that rule, but I'm going to make this mjor threat to all the parents who listen to us right now. is to say basically, look You know Follow the rules, follow the law and your child is saved. And that's That's one thing that I preach every day when I go to schools and presentations and you know just it's just keeping children away from these horrific dangers. And the thing is you're talking to strangers. don't even know who you're talking to. It's not someone tangible. It's someone that you just don't know, but who plays they're your friends. The chances are They're out there to do harm. And that's what's really scary about the whole thing I know that you and Ereti have set up the Christopfheros Charity Foundation as a legacy for your son and that is the work that you're describing now, going to schools and doing it. and I hesitate to take you back. So answer this question in whatever way you prefer P People listening to this because with Christopher Ross, he sort of went almost overnight. You've described the last fifty days of his life as being evidence of epic personality change. what would you say Given your horrible experience to parents of children of a similar age, he was fifteen when you lost him What should they be most concerned about? What should they be looking for? That kind of relationship with the closed door of the bedroom and the parent who thinks everything's okay Yeah. well, that's exactly it James. The thing is that parents don't actually realize changes in characteristics You know, when a child is starting to pull back to themselves, not being talkative, not eating a lot, closing themselves up in their bedrooms, putting those earphones in their ears and either on their phone or playing online games, horrific games like Robblox and Fortnite These games are horrific because they allow these predators to enter very easily Now The message to the answer to your question is parents need to a very close encounter with their child. They need to be able to talk with them, ask them questions, when they hear them talking upstairs on their headphones, ask them who they're talking to, when they say it's just a friend, or is it someone tangible? Is it someone you know? Is it someone that you you've seen? Is it a school friend And if the answer to all of that is a no, then they have to come off that They've got to get them away from their platforms And it's just so important. It's really well put. And this legislation will help with that. Do you think that the intervention and the testimony of parents like you has influenced KSar? No child is going to be very happy with what's going on now. Okay? Of course. No child. I mean, I saw a video earlier on as a lady in school who said, you, put your hands up to any child who is for this ban. But you know school no hands went up because no child's going to be happy for something like that to go forward because going it's going to change their entire livelihoods that they think they have However It's It's I think it's going to have a massive impact. I mean, it's brought tears to my minarity's life, our wives and it's made the soilver onm. I've just called up Ellen and Mariano and Lisa and I've just told them that you know what? we are so ed right now because the thing is that and We have now scored, shall I call it a goal in the next step. And our next step is to try and implement this this law to the best possible. And one idea that I've been saying that I have is to do face recognition and ID recognition. In that way, children will not be able to come around the system. And any parent who is listening to this would say, you know what, I shall do that for my child.es You get the children who are extremely anxious Oh, please mom, just do it for me. But no,ve got to they've got to stand by their guns because it's a safety for our children. And that's number one. Beautifully put George stay saf Thank you, James.ess. And you It's twelve no. And you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC more coverage of this issue, this legislation. and for take anything away from it myself, having listened to George as well, of course, who went through the worst imaginable experience a Parent can have when he lost his boy Christopher in twenty twenty two after He was contacted. Oline by every to use George' word predators. anythingy to take away from this think of it as the beginning of a process, not the end, which sort of flies in the face with a lot of political coverage and political analysis, doesn't it? We expect it to arrive o and ready as it were in front of us But it can't, not with stuff that is literally designed to move with the times. Up next it's Monday. It's Monday, so it must be a ceasefire. twelve o five is the time. The fat lady may not be singing, but she's certainly clearing her throat. It would appear that another ceasefire is on the way or an extension to the current one, and that this one may signal an end to hostilities in Iran, hopefully also in Lebanon, although as has become common Benjamin Netanyahu who responded to positive noises emerging from negotiations between Iran and the United States of America by bombing U byy attacking civilians in Beirut, launching a new round of attacks there. That's what happened last week, isn't it? when Trump was also criticising Netanyahu with conversations in conversations with reporters listen, it's the biggest story in the world and it's also the weirdest because I don't know how to talk about it anymore I I know, for example, that Donald Trump will claim a victory when he has not won anything I know, for example, that Benjamin Netanyahu will probably not be bound by anything that Donald Trump tells him to do and will probably continue with his attacks upon Lebanon there being not a great deal left in Gaza for him to continue to attack there I know that the deal, whatever it may be, will involve billions of dollars being released to Iran and promises to cease any attempts to develop a nuclear weapon, which is exactly what Barack Obama secured and Donald Trump set fire to. I know that the Strait of Hormuz is going to continue to impact upon the global economy, most obviously, but by no means exclusively through oil prices for months A They passage is reopened. I know that it was only closed because of Trump and Netanyahu's attack. So they will be celebrating a return to roughly where we were three and a half months ago before he started a war that was supposed to take merely a couple of weeks. It's almost four months, let's say four months ago. How do you Acknowledge or recognize all of those moving parts. It will be At the very very best It will be what was in place four months ago with obviously thousands of deaths having been Um, having occurred in the interim. Thousands of people having been killed. Israeli strikes in Lebanon believed to have killed more than three thousand seven hundred people including two hundred forty children, about a million people have been displaced. We know that in Iran, a hundred school girls were killed by the US strike on the very first day of the war, All of these poor souls have perished. All of these people have died, American troops Israeli troops and The best case scenario is that things will return, will revert to exactly where they were four months ago which was a status quo, not as good, not as safe, not as beneficial to the world as the one that was secured by Barack Obama during during his administration. And that is why it defies Analysis, the people in this country that cheer lead for Donald Trump We'll just go quiet for a while. Dick littleittle John in the Daily Mail probably start writing about old episodes of The Bill No sorry, he's already done that. He'll probably start writing about old episodes of Cracker Jack in this week's column. It would be great. those were the days Krackerjacks, Friday, pencil and pen or something, A crracker jack pencil. because they can't ever as with Bxit, which we'll also be talking about this week. These people are absolutely incapable of putting theirs up and saying, I'm an idiot. I got absolutely everything wrong I was probably in the case of Trump and Brexit, so completely seduced by the racism that I absolutely lost sight of the ball So you're not going to have anything to push against when it comes to analysis. You're not even going to be able to do what I like doing on a daily basis and saying, let me show you why they're wrong And then I run through it, not an opinion, just counting. and at the end of that process, you can say Oh God, yeah, they are wrong, orr you can say I don't care that they're wrong. I still really love the racism And you can't really rely upon the experts because although the experts and you know you can rely upon them for some elements of what is going on. like what happens if the Strait of Ormz is shut? Well, this happens and that happens. What happens if And But that's pretty much it actually. What happens if what happens when the straight of homeor is reopens? Well, this happens and that happens, but it will not return to normal, things won't improve or at least the choke effect to the impact will continue for months afterwards U Iranian state media currently claiming that the deal will force Israel to withdraw from Lebanon. Does Donald Trump have the capability, the wherewithal to tell Benjamin Netanyaho to withdraw completely from Lebanon. if he doesn't What happens next? You don't know any of these things and it's about twenty five billion dollars the expected release of Iranian assets as well as sanctions relief. So Iran arguably comes out of it better than it went into it. while Donald Trump, well, not even arguably, Iran Despite the loss of human life, which the regime in Iran doesn't seem to care about particularly, I'm talking about the loss of Iranian life U they're going to be coming out of it better than they went into it. So how do you have a phone in about this kind of thing I don't think anymore, I don't even think you listen anymore. But people who think Donald Trump is anything other than a deranged lying idiot are worth talking to. That was one of the ideas I had. Have a conversation about what's changed But people who have not yet realized that Donald Trump is a deranged lying idiot are never going to realize that Donald Trump is a deranged lying idiot. I don't know how that works. I don't know why that is true, but I don't think that this ridiculous war which has done none of the things he claimed it would do. It hasn't toppled the Iranian regime It didn't last a few weeks. It's left Iran enjoying more leverage over the international economy than they ever had before, and he's bottled it again, effectively, presumably because he doesn't want to go into the midterms with the war still raging. So anybody which is why people like Dick Little John in The Daily Mail won't be able to talk about it or won't be able to mention it and will instead be writing about twenty five year old episodes of Kracker Jack for a few weeks How do how do you have a conversation about something that is so completely bonkers? So completely and utterly bonkers And that's presuming it sticks, which there's no guarantee it will How many times has he announced a ceasefire? Roughly the same amount of times that he's announced the obliteration of Iran's military capability, which is roughly the same amount of times that he's announced that he will do terrible things to them if they don't fall into line immediately. Which is about the same amount of times that he's announced well he's not actually going to do terrible things to them despite the fact that they haven't fallen into line immediately He's changed his mind because they're terrible people It's a win, I think Iran in many ways with that constant caveat that they've lost many people not as many as killed in Lebanon, of course, but again, it doesn't seem to be something that troubles either the White House or Benjamin Netanyahu or the Iranian regime unduly. In fact, the only thing upon which they could all seem to agree is that the civilian deaths don't matter don't matter I So what do you think has changed What do you think has changed A senior U. S. official telling the news organization Zetio that the plan is the same as it was months ago when the White House kept leaking. that the president was going to declare victory J just say that we won. It doesn't matter whether you did win or not. you will just keep saying, Donald Trump won. America won. Donald Trump won. If we said enough times, it will come true, won't it? And that was I told you that weeks ago. I said that was what was going to happen. It'll end up worse than it was before. It will end up obviously and measurably worse than what was in place after Barack Obama negotiated the JCPOA. But he will march around like a pigeon playing chess, insisting Barack Obama has made it pretty clear that the likelihood of this deal being better than the one he negotiated is almost non existent and of course also acknowledged that chaos had been unleashed on the global economy. Characteristically diplomatic, Obama said, It is doubtful that any agreement that arises is going to be significantly different or a significant improvement from the deal that we had in the first place and worked for for a long stretch of time before we the United States pulled out of it a reference to Trump tearing up Obama's deal in his first term, which in case you don't No this, left Iran free to enrich uranium. They started again to about sixty percent, which is close to Weapons gr I What have you learned Does that work How much damage has this war done? And now we can make a list of It how much damage as this will done to Benjamin Netanyahu I don't think it's done any damage to Donald Trump. I would love you to tell me that I'm wrong I would love you to tell me, James, I've listened to you for years. I thought you were talking absolute gibberish about Donald Trump, but this engagement has made me realise that you were completely right all along and I never should have listened to the other people I just don't think you exist Do you think that person exists I could deal with the abuse of the disabled journalist. I was comfortable with the boasting about being a sex offender. The felonies didn't really trouble me at all, inciting the insurrection and then pardoning the people responsible for it who were baying for the blood of his own vice president, lying absolutely endlessly and egregiously about the result of the twenty twenty election. I just all of that, I was fine with it, all, James But the war in Iran, all that's really turned my head I've got to admit now that he was a wrongan all along and I can't believe I didn't see it sooner. That person doesn't exist, right? This is why it's such a weird thing to pick over or analyze. The person who would think, Oh Trump's alriving, and what was Dick Little John saying? I wish he was running Britain I've never been more ashamed to be British than when we didn't join in with this ludicrous war. So you're fine with the abuse of the disabled people, you're fine with the self confessed sex offending. You're fine with the court case where he sued a woman who accused him of rape and lost. Make of that what you will. You're fine with the lies about the election. you're fine with the pardoning of the people that committed the election. you're fine with all the felonies You're fine with the hideous bullying of the Gold star dead military veterans' family. You can't even begin to make a list of, but I fine with all of that. Yep, still fine with that. Well I' never be more ashamed to be British that we didn't go to war with this clown. And now today you wake up and you go, do you know what? I probably should have been a little bit slower to offer him my full throated support. Nigel Farris should do everything we can to support him Kamy Bay not, we do everything we can to support him All gone quiet or rever or change. So you can't what do you do? How do you have a conversation about this? Can I do that as a phone in How'd you have a conversation about this three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven is that asking me Is that me asking you to do my job How do we have a conversation about this? It's by far the most important story in the world If your mortgage has gone up, if you've signed a new mortgage deal that's at a higher rate than you were expecting six months ago, it's Donald Trump's fault It's Benjamin Netanyahu's fault. It's fault That's why. gone out of your food bill If youuel bill The cost of living, all of that has gone up more than you were expecting. It's their fault. They did it. They did this Benjamin Nettingu because he was desperate to cling onto power desesperate to stay out of court and therefore jail. Donald Trump because reasons Someone told him it'd be great. Someone sold it to him If you listen to Marco Rubio, Benjamin Netanyahu, who persuaded him it' be over by tea time, and you can do a lap of honor claiming that you've done a better job bringing peace to the Middle East than any other previous American president Every single one of whom, Benjamin Netanyahu, who had tried to persuade to attack Iran, but they all had the brains to tell him where to go. and to Donald Trum who didn't tell him where to go I mean What can you say with any certainty? The same thing you could say at the very beginning, Donald Trump will lose and he will claim victory Or Donald Trump will end up in a situation that is worse or at the very best, no better than the situation that the USA was in before with regard to Iran, and he'll claim a glorious victory claim a glorious, glorious victory Israel has been hemorrhaging goodwill and public support right across the world since Pretty much the moment it became clear that the response to the October the seventh atrocity was going to involve incalculably more deaths than the October the seventh atrocity involved That's not an opinion, I'm afraid. That's counting, albeit that some people are still incapable of understanding how the human mind works when it watches death tolls rise I Has this damaged Israel any further than it had been damaged before? H it seen a further hemorrhaging of goodwill and support to the entire country while the current regime remains in place I do' not know And Iran, I mean, the revolutionary guard, a theocratic dictatorship, the worst kind of government that anybody who believes in freedom or decency can want to live under. They come out of it emboldened. They might have lastost they lost the last ayatotoola, but have you met the new one It's his son What has changed? What have you learned Where has the most damage been inflicted And I don't mean tolls because that would be Lebanon, which didn't really have anything to do with this war in the first place. It's just that Benjin Netanyahu who saw an opportunity while attention was directed to Iran to wade in there and try to do another Gaza So what is the question? What is the conversation What does it mean What does it mean The number you need is zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three. And what I want you to do is this, okay I want you to tell me what happened Don't hold back on the grounds that what you have to say might be obvious mayaybe do hold back on the grounds that what you have to say is an absolutely crazy conspiracy theory. I think there's enough of that in the world without necessarily polluting this program, but what has happened and pick any element you want. You don't have to do the whole thing You could pick the straighter Hall moves and just tell us what has happened. Well, they did this and that means that, which means this, which means that And that will be something that we feel the consequences of until the middle of twenty twenty eight Because you know what you're talking about which is something else that distinguishes you from Donald Trump What has happened You could come at it from the Israeli angle. You could talk about Benjamin Netanyahu's imminent corruption trial and the appalling deal he has done with the most hideous of people in order to stay in power you can keep Smotrich and Ben Gveir in your cabinet, then there is no depth to which you will not stoop in order to save your own political hide. And they are the ones, many people argue that have driven the attacks upon Lebanon never mind the genocide in Gaza has All right. Pick angle or have a crack at the whole thing. All I've got is Donald Trump will claim victory even as everybody with a brain knows that he's lost What have you ca What has happened? This is the most significant Yeah Internationally speaking, it is the most significant element of Donald Trump's second administration by a country mile Much more important than Venezuela Much more important than threats to Greenland, much more important than the abuses of NATO or the appalling libelling of the entire United Kingdom What has happened? zo three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is a number you need It is, I think more likely to be over by the end of this week than it has been at any other point when they've announced that it's about to be over. This one looks like it will stick with the constant Craig David caveat Of course, it's a ceasefire on Monday, you know the rest. Have a go at explaining what has happened and the lenses through which you might want to look at that question are What has changed in the world or indeed in the way you look at the world. And who or what has sustained the most damage? What has changed What has been most damaged zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. but Overarching all of that What actually just happened Just four months What happened Hit the numbers now, you will get through And twelve twenty four, I hope this isn't a sort of mark of imperial hegemony, but I don't know that we've heard enough Iranian voices. over the last few I heard a lot at the very beginning But there was such disagreement, wasn't there between different members of the diaspora, thoseose who dreamt of a sort of shl returning and thought that what Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu were doing was brilliant I think we politely suggested to them maybe sit tight for a while because I look at who you're talking about, look at who you're cheering. They're unlikely to end up delivering anything you want. But people wouldn't listen because passions run deep. I presume you've all realized now that you were sold something of a pup, but I don't know. And then of course people who hoped that the engagement would signal a different kind of revolution in Iran, that it would actually create the circumstances needed for an internal revolution they have Also had their hopes dashed. I don't know how much of an expert you need to be on the country or the region to have either seen or not seen that coming, but as soon as Donald Trump was in charge. Or as soon asonald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu who got into bed together, it seemed pretty clear to me. that the only people who were likely to benefit from it were Donald Trump and Benjin Netanyahu. And Benjamin Netanyahu, who has personally, albeit that his country has hemorrhaged even more goodwill and support in the process, Donald Trump hasn't, but that doesn't matter because he'll claim that he has That's my takeaway What's yours? Sam's in Efield, Sam, what would you like to say Hi, Jane.. So I think the first thing I would say is that Iran have learned a valuable lesson, which is that they don't need to enrich uranium to hold the world to ransom something that they probably knew But now they hundred percent knew They hadn't proved it. They might have thought it, but they couldn't prove it. And now they've proven it. now they've proved it. God, I hadn't thought of that yet. So that's the first thing. They don't need the uranium. They've got something far more powerful than uranium. They can hurt us economically I think the next thing that we've learnnt in this situation is that superpower is struggling to defeat a modest power and at a thirty five thousand dollars drone. to be shot down by a million dollar missile And and that's something that Ukraine is kind of teaching the Russians, right?. So we don't have to spend billions and billions on defense like everyone says we do. I ye I mean, well I I don't know. I mean been last week's conversation about the necessity of more defense spending was driven by people who have a much deeper knowledge of the defense Well than either you or I do. and they are adamant. I mean, I'd tell you what I'd accept is if you said we need to spend it on very different things from what we've spent it on before. I don't know that I can join you in going all the way to saying we can cut our defense budgets massively as a consequence of what's happened in Iran But and then the other thing I think people have really learned is that there is a, you know There is a special relationship. It's one between It's the one between the U. S and Israel. That's the only real special relationship. That's what the UK A ambassador said And I think the Americans are realizing, actually, I'm not sure there's much in it for us to have this relationship And Trump is learning that it's actually the tail that's wagging the dog and that Netanyah, who is not going to say how high when Trump says Jump And that's a realization that I think he's having right now U I think that this sixty day ceasefire it's not a peace deal. It's just a ceasefire for a framework I think the Israelis will do whatever they can to scpper it. I think they'll carry on bombing Lebanon, I think they're all They will do things that will enrage know Iran And we will be back to square one sixty days from now Obviously, I hope not, but history is on your side, isn't Reent history is on your side. And if we had to distill down to why, it would be because if Benjamin Netanyahu's self interest is so completely overarching, then his self interest would accommodate even a massive diminishment or even a severance of what you describe and you're right, well, I think the former or the current UK A ambassador to the USA described as the only special relationship. In other words Israel's interests are enormously and eternally served by this relationship with the United States of America, but in the very short term Benjamin Netanyahu's interest may not be, in which case it's good bye. it's good night Vienna Y. And I think also I think Trump is going to get a bloody nose at the midterm elections I think that I think Netanyahu is going to lose the election in October in in Israel. I think he might even get find himself in court. Because he's tried to get himself pardoned by the president and that's not happened. S something Donald Trump joined in with, didn't he? when he mean, which didn't look at all scripted or as if he was reading out a note that he'd been given in advanance Pet And Yeahes. And I think also I think where this all started, if people can remember that far back These people took to the streets in Iran because the value of their currency had collapsed And it had collapsed because of sanctions put on them by the West And now what will happen to them? They'll probably get sanctions released They'll probably get their assets think repeports suggest that sanctions releaseed them twenty five billion dollars worth of unfrozen assets. So an absolute disaster from Trump's point of view, a disaster from Israel's point of view. And if we accept that the revolutionary guard in the Iranian regime is not particularly trou troubled by the death toll. in Lebanon. That may not be true actually. Well it's more about the politics of their support for Hezbollah, isn't it than the actual death toll in Lebanon. But Iran will be the ones who could most objectively credibly claim some sort of victory or triumph You know, there are no winners when there's a exactly. That's the problem. And the thing is there was absolutely no need for this Right at the very beginning becausecause it was a perfectly good deal in place, that the imecile that is Donald Trump ripped up is now thinking actually that was a pretty good deal that he can't think that. He's incapable because it was negotiated by a black man Yeah, whose middle name happens to be Hussein, as he always points out That's the fella for reasons that you don't really need to speculate on. It's obviously an attempt to other and to demonise. Cryk I don't think Sam's killed the phone in Stone dead because I said there are many, many angles at which he and of course, as ever on this program, you can challenge anything that he's just said, but that initial opening I hadn't thought of that for a minute A G Iran have discovered or at least have had it confirmed. they don't need to enrich uranium to hold the world to ransom anymore They've shown what they can do. This is what Ashy Northampton, who of course used to be in the Merchant Navy and now trains Merchant seamen, this is what he was explaining to us from the very beginning. And one of the main reasons why Benjamin Netanyahu who had been unable to persuade any previous U. S president to attack Iran was because of the strait of Hormuz Only Donald Trump was stupid enough to believe whatever it was that Benjamin Netanyahu told him, which would be either, Oh, that's not true. you don't need to worry about the Strait of Hormz, or don't worry about that. It'll be over so quickly that we'll be in charge of it by tea timee tomorrow whether Netanyahu knew or cared what was likely to happen in Iran or indeed to the world economy is a question for future biographers because all he really cares about at any moment in any cycle, whether it's political electoral or news is Benjamin Netanyahu And of course all of the people who have gone a little quiet now, but have spent much of the last few years accusing anybody criticizing Benjamin Netanyahu's regime of antiemitism. I'm afraid only in many ways have themselves to blame for the hemorrhaging of goodwill and public support that Israel is now suffering Although, for the record, not from me or from indeed this programme, because to separate the country from the regime is as important in Israel as it is in the United States of America. Here's Matt Hewittt with the headlines Yeah It's twelve thirty six and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC where The conversation is a very strange one. We have you got a minute? can I indulge little in a bit of background, just in terms of what I do with you every day When this kicked off, it was I mean, it was an extraordinary experience to be presenting this program on this radio station because The amount of traction we were getting in the United States of America via YouTube mostly was the greatest we've ever seen. I mean, I worried at some point that the kind of sense we were getting with regards to listener numbers was being skewed slightly by the number of peopleeople tuning in on the other side of the Atlantic, which of course doesn't hit my radiar. It doesn't affect my radiar, but then the radiars came in and it turned that We were going great guns everywhere. So that was a worry that was quickly dealt with. And the reason for that was because we could be completely honest here We're not owned by Donald Trump donors, you know. We don't have to bend the knee to the ludicrous inhabitant of the White House. We don't have to pretend that his comments about the twenty twenty election are anything other than egregious lies. We don't have to dress up His attempts to incite an insurrection on june six, january the sixth are anything other than attempts to incite an insurction on january the sixth, We're not cowed or frightened, or more importantly, in the context of American media, we are not own by Members of the Trump project And I think that was why we reached parts that we hadn't previously reached. and it should have continued for longer. You always get a bit of war fatigue. Or foreign policy fatigue, foreign affairs fatigue, we should probably call it So it might be the most important thing happening in the world, but you can't really talk about anything every day The only things that we've ever talked about every day, I think, are COVID and Brexit U and they were obviously both happening right here right now This is not So there was a weird tail off, but it wasn't just a tail off. It was if we went overnight from wanting to talk about it endlessly with everybody to not having anything to say about it at all. And I have wrestled with this, puzzled over this Endlessly actually, because why is it not like it was when it started? And the answer, I think we have worked out together, which is you can't there comes a point where you can't analyze madness You've got a ceasefire announced on a Monday You've got the complete obliteration of the Iranian regime announced on a Tuesday. You've got threats to completely obliterate the Iranian regime brackets, which you said you've already obliterated closed brackets if they don't do what you want immediately You've got a retreat from the threat to obliterate the Iranian regime brackets, which you said you've already obliterated closed brackets if they don't do what you've done immediate to another claim that you've just completely obliterated them. So we've obliterated them, we will obliterate them. We haven't obliterated them, but if they don't do what we want, we will obliterate them. We've announced a ceasefire because we're geniuses. We're going to attack them again tomorrow. Those are five points. whichever way you dress it up, which have just come round again and again and again and again and again Calvin Haris tri That's why you can't analyze it Isn't it retreat, rinse, repeat R retreat, rinse repeat Rreat, defeat. Attack, ceasefire, threat, leverage And it's bonkers. So we lost the ability with the exception of Ash in Northampton. who was coming at everything from a maritime perspective and therefore was dealing constantly with facts regardless of noise We haven't really been able to do anything. And in some ways, we still can't So all we can do now is say what's changed And I think Sabin Efield provided an absolute masterclass in how to answer that question And if you don't like what's changed, have a crack at what happened? What's happened zero three, four, five, six zero six zero nine, seven three is the number you need Jamie points out the other thing we don't have to worry about is maintaining or retaining access to the White House. That's very true too Although there are plenty of journalists, well, there are still some journalists in America managing to do incredibly good work in the face of incredible pososition up to and including being demonized and targeted by the government itself for the crime of telling the truth the crime of simply repeating or reflecting what has been said by the President or done by the President. Mello, what a lovely name is in Chlotte, North Carolina. Mello, what would you like to say Hey, how you doing sir? goodood morning. Good morning to you. How's going'? Well, I just wanted to answer the question about what's changed and personally, I feel like The only thing that's really changed is Trump and his family have gotten richer and people have gotten poooor. You know what I mean? Yes Yes. And of course, you can't, you know, gloss over the fact that thousands of people have died because of what he wanted to do here, which was enrich himself and his family. I don't know about that. I don't think we'll argue about it because neither of us can prove the other one wrong. I think that has been a happy side effect of what was originally undertaken for different reasons. I don't think he went into it to make money. I think he went into it because he'd bought the idea that he'd somehow be able to secure a glorious victory and get one over on Barack Obama. But as the longer it's gone on, obviously people around him have made enormous sums of money by essentially betting upon whatever announcement he was due to make next with we can only presume some some foreknowledge of what he was likely to say next. How's it playing in North Carolina? I mean, is it a topic of constant conversation? Is it something that Has salience or you just heard me wanging on before you came on the radio mow, is it got? That sense of fatigue is that even if people thought it was a great idea to start with and there weren't many of them They've gone quiet now and everybody else is just sort of waiting for it to peter out Yes, I think there is a large sense of fatigue. And we don't really talk about it much. There are a couple of people that I work with who Okayar? Yeah, loud and clear Okay, Yeah there are a couple of people who I worked with who you know, may have voted for Donald Trump and I don't you know, hold these kind of things against people, politics or politics. But they definitely don't talk too much about what's going on currently. You know what I mean? Yeah.' out ofight mind. And it's not going to change anyone's mind. No one's going to wake up having put up with all the stuff that's gone before and said, you know what? Maybe this guy a bit is a bit of a bad guy I should have spotted it sooner, but Iran has really made me realise it now. I can't see that happening. Oh, no, absolutely not. Nobody likes to be wrong and they would have to admit that they were wrong. You know what I'm saying And the I think in regards to his plan to, you know self aggrandize himself I think that's part of it, but there are a lot of military contracts that went to people related to Trump and people around his family Like Jerred Kushner's younger brother got a twenty billion dollars defense contract. That's not something that you just like, you know, come up with on the spur of the moment. You kind of have to have that thing in the works, you know what I mean? Well, ye, I guess. I wasn't aware of that, but I'll take your word for it until someone corrects me or corrects you. but that I think the company is Ardu real indndustries or something similar to that if you wanted to, you know, fact check. But there are other companies that his son is on the board of that have had defense contracts precisely because of this war, like drone contracts and things like that. And I mean, you know, they This isn't something new to America, you know what I mean? I mean Well yes I do, but it's new for it to be so so out in the open, for it to be so bad faced. People always make' so blatant. People always make money out of wars, but they don't really do it in daylight It yeah. I still, I mean, maybe I'm a sweet summer child mellow, and you can laugh at my naivety, but I actually don't believe that's why they undertook. I don't think that's why it started I think that you give me doubt perhaps when you say that it's unlikely this deal could have been put in place on the hoof on the fly, but I just I just think he undertook it for reasons of ego and then the opportunities for self enrichment kicked in You get them both, you know what I mean? It's a bas bo world for people who think like that. And a two trillion dollars hit to the world economy or there or thereabouts, including, as you began by reminding us, ordinary Americans who have been hit in the purse by this. they've been hit in the wallet. and yet I don't know how much of your media will be telling him the truth, actually, how much of the media will be saying the reason why the cost of gas is going up at a rate of nots is because of Donald Trump's war in Iran. Is it going to affect the midterms? I think it will have a slight effect, but there are things happening now that are going to affect how and when people can vote. You know what I mean? So even if he was going to take a big hit in the midterms, he's already got the infrastructure in place to say, Oh, these people can't vote, don't send these mail in ballots It's going to be a very interesting and maybe very consequential midterm election. G Lord, indeed it is. And of course, even even if the results do go against him, he'll simply claim that they can't be trusted. In fact, I think we can all agree. the only elections that Donald Trump thinks have been conducted in a fair transparent fashion are the ones that he wins If he loses, then something bad has happened If he wins, then everything is hunky Dory. Just don't mention the fact that the electoral system, the methods of counting, the practices, the people, all of those are exactly the same in the elections that he loses as they are in the election that he wins. J just let him continue with his ludicrous lies. Which is why of course, the Trump cheerleaders in this country, led by Dick Little John, of the Daily Mail, have had absolutely nothing to say about him or Iran Part of four months But he's written some cracking stuff about twenty five year old episodes of the bill It's twelve forty six. twelve forty nine, I just asked the top team behind the most successful speech radio program in the history of UK commercial radio. pronounce hegemony, and I got three different answers I don't know how I c how do I put up with this every day? honestly. What is it then anyyway. Rob's been in touch. He says the USA have lost their military hegemony Hegemony It' defitely hegeimononey, Keith. I don't know what you're talking about. The USA have lost their military hegemony in the Middle East and trust from the countries and old allies there. The petro dollar global clutch seems shakier than ever before. A Julio rightes. Good morning, James. My twelve year old child saidod, Dad, did you notice that since the war in Iran started, not much has been said about the Epstein files. And now the World Cup is on, so Trump's decided to end it because people will be focusing on the World Cup for a while What a bright lad And More on that end, I think you know what have you learned as opposed to what's changed is that Trump and Netanyahu are peas in a pod and they will be motivated at every single turn Myself. protection and self interest. So impunity plus the kind of self advancement, self protection, self interest that you probably need sociopathic tendencies to execute probably, but I don't have the diagnostic tools to say that with any certainty peak of the devil, Ash. This could be it, mate. this could be the Swan song. It could all be over. peace rains, we all get wet Ash has been steering us effortlessly. through the complexities of events in the You can steer a boat. He's been manning the tiller while steering us effortlessly through events in the Strait of Hormuz and he's won a lot of fans and admirers and a lot of gratitude from me in the process. So I'll go straight in with the big question of the day, what's changed? I mean, working on the presumption that it is over But as I said at the outset, I think the fat lady is clearing her throat rather than singing. But anyway, whether it is or not, what's changed? what has actually changed as a consequence of this name James Okay I'm currently working on the provviso that the era of open globalization is over.. That's my that my sort of ist at the moment thatm that I'm currently sort of writing and working working towards We've had an era since the end of the Cold War, essentially. where we have had unrestricted access to trade routes with no need to secure them via military means whichich is basically what globalization is, it's securing trade routes without using the Navy. I think we're now in a position where that's coming to an end And we're going to have to start looking at the way that we are conducting world maritime trade in a very different way that I think where we are in terms of I think this has been coming for a while. So this has been true for hundreds of years. Yes, I mean, you can go all the way back to Byzantine era trade routes and being secured by maritime. I wasn't going to go about that far despite actually having an A level in bicane history as you may know, but I was thinking more of kind of between eighteenth and nineteenth century and our Navy being the reason why we enjoyed such extraordinary prosperity in many ways Yes, but then it wasn't our Navy as such, was it? It was it was in sort of in entities such as the East India compomany. called a private company, you know, which had its own navy. So you know, you That's been the slow progression away from the Navy and naval power into private hands which then shifted even further into private hands when we moved into globalization I think we're going to have to start seeing a shift back. And it's been coming for a while. know the whole issue with the Babel Mande, which has been going on for two, three years now hoouties and bombs. even mean, there is an argument that I'm currently working on that even the age of piracy from Somalia has led inexorably towards this. Back in the day They would have wiped out these problems the commercial entities where they're backed by state ary or private military, they would have wiped out things like the Houis. probably struggle to wipe out Iran, but they could have taken off the board the roogue players interfering and disrupting trade. And the calculation would always be that any price is worth paying to keep the money flowing Well, that's literally what private here is exxactly that. The stock definition of a private here is you're basically taking out the the enemies of the crown that you happen to be working for under a license to basically legalize piracy. and wh whatever money you can make out of that is yours. So why isn't that happening becausecause who has a private army that can do that And why couldn't a public army do it? Why couldn't the states do it? Why couldn't the United States do it And'm thinking more about the Houthis than the Iranians. No, I know. it's because if you look at where they are Yeah you know, your again, this comes back toZoom. if you attack the Hooutis Who were you really attacking? Yeah, of course you're attacking I'rong in a different country, which is Yemen And so what we're not it's weird, isn't it? becausecause it's atomized. So I mean, the era of sea battles is definitely blhind as the era of tank battles is probably close to extinct as well. And this is what the new reality looks like Yeah, and you can tie that back to the defense arguments. L I'm not in the rooms with the defense people obviously when they're going through this, but you've had an era for the last thirty years of being able to downscale things like the Royal Navy and allow it to atrophy. I mean, my branch is the worldset auxilelary Yes. When I joined, we had sixteen, seventeen ships loads of people We're now down to maybe four or five that can actually physically go and sale. Yeah You know, and that loss of capability was they were kind of okay with it. Well because we all thought history was over. Francis Fuillama told us history was over Yes. And now we're in a position where everything's shifting, and I think we're going to start seeing more of a It's an interesting way you put the money though. that That's the question. You know, does it go into digital? And this is this is all of last week that I was I was fascinated to sit and listen to because Do you put it into the digital to try and get it at the source or do you put it into three D printers on ships with drones that just suicide mission one way and take out anything that's threatening the shipping I don't know. that'll be an interesting side note to see what happens, but I look forward to reading your conclusions. But what we've done is what has happened is a recognition that the universe or the world is now a place where commercial interests will probably have to be defended by commercial interests which would be a very bleak place to be. if we go back to a time when we have essentially privateers or legalized private armies. I mean, think of everything that's happened in the last ten years with the Russian private armies that have been roaming around Africa Yes. You know I don't think anybody would see that as a posit good in the So Ben comes at it from a similar angle actually, although he says Trump has shown the world that the United States is a paper tiger. He can't control Putin, he can't control Netanyahu, he can't defeat the IRGC. He can't open international waters and China will be watching probably thinking that Taiwan is undefended. Trump has shown the world how weak he actually is, but he's done more than that, hasn't the world how much the world has changed Yeah. and you can't put your face in you know, everythingvery remaining open and God, there's the one takeaway this is the death of complacency death of complacency and the rise of impunity A the same time. So you and Sam bookend this conversation, you're both brilliant. and he suggested that this means that traditional defence spending is no longer necessary. J just quick response to that idea while you're still going to need es you're still going to need people The question is what are those people doing are they go are they sending the holes to sea? to then trying to defend conventionally or are they sending the holes to se to I don't know Like I say,s three print stuff. No I get it. I get it. It's a complete game changer. And if Ukraine hadn't already demonstrated elements of that to us, then this business would have done ash. It's been an absolute pleasure. I know we'll talk again. I'm only teasing But if this is the beginning of the end of Donald Trump's adventures in Iran, then Thank you for all the help. you've provided us with understanding them up to and including the last few minutes. It's coming up to twelve fifty nine. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'm not the only one. I just glanced at my. inbox and I was not the only one who suddenly had a little shiver the thought of Elon Musk having his own private army If you missed any of today's show, and I mean of soldiers, not just of online racists If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the LBCA where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news videos and opinion. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily, the best bits from this show every day. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. coming up at four on LBC Simon Mulks has surrendered the seat back to its original inhabitant Tom Sorbk, who's back from his holidays and Sheila Fogty is here That was worthy of the N' win that pivot that you did. She deleted it while I was reading it. Really? Literally while I was reading it, they pay millions for that. the telly? they would. People on the telly are terrible at that, but anyway, that's the end of my TV radio rant. Thank you, Jes. Have a great afternoon This has been a Global Player original production