Farage and the Taliban Negotiation

When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred ranger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done This is a Global Player original podcast Good morning. It's three Oh, I'm sorry. We interrupt this program with an urgent public safety appeal A little man called Nigel has gone missing in the Makerfield area of England. His mummy is very worried about him. Apparently he is wearing an outfit It's described here as he's dressed like a city dweller's idea of what a country gentleman looks like And if you do have any information about the whereabouts of Nigel, whose mummy is very worried about him, then the number you need is zero three fourty five sixzero six zero nine seven three. So just to repeat, a little man called Nigel, if you see him wandering around Makerfield, looking lost His mumy is very worried about him and we wonder if you could help reunite him with his very concerned mumy. and that's the end of the public safety Four minutes after ten is the time, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where the result in Makerfield last night is not only a disaster for Kur Stahmer, but also of course, as is often the case these days for most political journalists, not all, but for most political journalists who've spent weeks talking about knife edges and faragess vote being cannibalised by the other fellow who is called Reclaim or restestore or I forget precisely which it's so hard to keep up, but I will get across it. I promise it's unprofessional of me not to U But it's the scale. of I've got some breaking news for you. Kirst Starmer has said he will stand in any leadership contest. should one be triggered after Andy Burnham's return to Westminster, adding he will not walk away I suppose we should all be grateful to the Prime Minister for giving us for giving us our first phoneing topic of the day And a really interesting question actually, because I was going to go with what do you want to see happen next? but now you actually know what is going to happen next. The only bit we don't know, the known, unknown is of course how many other hats get tossed into that ring, including possibly, but I'm told not by any stretch of the imagination certainly, or even particularly likely at the moment, but never say never The steeily eyed messenger of death himself, Dan Jarvis. That was his nickname when he was in the Paratroopers. and you know how dewy eyed I can get. about people who were prepared to risk their life in the service of this country. I mean, people who genuinely were prepared to risk their life in the service of this country, not sort of plumbers from Makerfield, who were glorified cadets. I would love to see Dan Jelvis have a crack at the big job, but it may be a little bit early. Reflux, I think the other parties No, no sorry, regurgitate. It'll come to me a min. I'll get it. I'll get it in a second And we're a bit where we were at the beginning of the week, except the significant Dimension of yesterday's result, last night's result. And I don't know if you were listening tois good all overnight, but goodness, me. I don't know whether he was on the Pro plus, but he did an absolutely fantastic job of steering us through the expected and unexpected dimensions of yesterday's result. and the I think unexpected or unpredict didid you have a feeling I bottled making any meaningful predictions? I mean, I wasn't allowed to make any yesterday If I'd even mentioned the by election, I would have got into huge trouble. And you know what I would have said Do you want to know what I would have said yesterday if I was allowed to say anything I would have said that a party that is opposed to immigration is about to do well in a constituency that doesn't have any. I think that the white ethnic British part, English part of that constituency. It's ninety something percent. I think it might be as much as ninety seven And do you know What happened on the occasion, the only occasion of an offc complaint against me, littleittle old me An offc complaint against me actually being upheld I said live on the radio that an anti immigration party was about to win a by election in a constituency that didn't have any immigrants I was talking about Clactton amazingly enough. when Douglas Carswold, do you remember him? When he was running for UKP, which is one of the parties that Nigel Farris used to Run. work for, I don't know, lead. It's hard to keep track So That's a fascinating dimension, isn't it? The idea that he does best I guess the racists always do best in the areas where there isn't any immigration or where there's next to no immigration because the rest of us know what it's like The rest of us can see what it's like and are amazingly, not terrified or terrorized by it It's why of course, the fascists around the world have such a huge problem with London and our tw thrice elected mayor, Sadk Khan, picking up an award in Singapore just last week, which you probably won't have read about in your morning rag, picking up or heard about from your favourite right wing presenters, picking up an award in Singapore last week for I' just kind of leading a brilliant city really. and It's the size of the risi. I'm getting distracted Getting s at the size of this victory. And and that is a game changer from Kir Stammer's point of view, because It makes the case for change close to irresistible If you think of an opinion poll as an indication of what a constituency is going to do, and then think of a by election as an indication of where a country sits It's a far from exact science And yet the need, the desire for change from both labour supporters and labourrs Critics or labour's doubters is pretty close to irresistible. I'm stealing that from James. James, thank you for that. I'm stealing it from you Apparently Nigel Ferrage is starting a new party now. It's called Recluse It's the size of the result that makes Kir Starmer's position, I think, close to indefensible. It makes his position I think it's untenable. I'm glad that we began this week by reflecting on the fact that the worst thing probably about this whole scenario is that Starmer is a man more sinned against than sinning. It's as if he's found himself in a hole so deep he can't get out of it, but he didn't dig much of it himself. He definitely dug some of it himself. Don't get me wrong many areas He has been profoundly disappointing. and I appreciate how upsetting some people find that And I know how much this is going to upset you as well. A little bit of the defense of Kiss armor reminds me of the defense of Jeremy Corbyn It's as if you're ignoring the evidence of your own eyes and ears and just knotting that scarf ever tighter. around your neck, but only a small bit of that. I don't think you're anywhere near as deluded becausecause I honestly do think that Starmer has fallen so far into that hole because he was so bad at refilling it. Do you know what I mean? It was as if he It was if he was taken someone compared him this morning to a Labrador that is startled by its own flatulence. and they suggested that sometimes Kistama has that air somebody who is constantly being taken by surprise by events that he is are both responsible for and should have been able to completely predict. And I do think for the record, listen, let me tell you, I think it's over for Kistama. and I think it's perfectly possible that a year from now we'll look back and curse ourselves for having accelerated and facilitated The change of personnel. I would say the chances of that happening are forty eight fifty two. Aually no, I can't weld myself to the infernal statistic foreverm. I think the chances of that happening are relatively low Let's say about thirty percent But it's a very real prospect that we will look back in a couple of years or perhaps as the next general election approaches, and we will say to ourselves, whyy on earth didn't we stick with Starmer? Why didn't we leave him on the bridge as he struggled with the wheel and tried to turn that oil tanker around? Because it was beginning to shift. and a large part of the reason why the country didn't think it was beginning to shift was because of the effort put into maligning him And now guess what's going to happen? Soiler alert All of those guns turn on Andy Burnham All of those tanks are parked on Andy Burnham's lawn which is why I've got a sort of sneaking soft spot for Dan Jarvis because I think even even the kind of Moral bankrupt on the right of the British media will struggle to land punches on a paratrooper. in quite the same way that they will on Andy Burnham. So he is now Absolutely public enemy number one. The headlines will probably start tomorrow I give it till Sunday before the political editor of the Mail on Sunday, Glen Owen takes dictation from Nigel Farrage about things that aren't true and sticks it on the front page of the paper. A Daily Express will probably be describing Andy Burnham as the Antichrist by tea timee today He will now be on the receiving end of the kind of abuse and vitriol that only people like Kis, Stahmer, Ed Milliliband and Jeremy Corbyn would be able to explain to him. It is going to be horrible and it is going to be constant and it is going to be effective. It is going to chip away from today onwards at the momentum that Andy Burnham currently enjoys and the sense of Um Optimism that he has somehow managed to engender Which brings us to the phone. Normally on a day like today, we'd confine some of the early contributions to people who were in the constituency. I can see that Chris and Wiggan is already on the board and fits that category completely. So what happened in Makerfield is a question that you can only really answer if you were or are in Makerfield. zero three fourty five sixzero sixzero nine seven three The question I want you to answer And I want you to jump in quite early on this Keiths got a bit bit excited yesterday A suggesting that we take a hydration break at Qarter Past and stop riding roughhot over all the requirements and traditions of this programme by generally ignoring the times at which I'm supposed to shut up for a few minutes I've got four minutes of Kir Stara though Keith. Should we play that now or shouldall we play it when we come back from the hydration break? What is anyone do we I mean, come on you know this is this isn't a one man show. This is colloegia. Eleanor, what do you think? Do we play it now? or do we play Play it now. So Keith, sorry, mate, you're going to have to put the hydration brake back in the fridge for a moment. Here's Kiris Amer talking just a few moments ago After you've heard him speak, I want you to ring me and tell me whether or not you think he should fight on as he's about to tell you he is going to, or whether he should actually now roll over and clear the decks either the coronation of Andy Burnham or a leadership battle involving Andy Burnham. What do you want Kia Starmer to do? and crucially, because you know how this programe works Why? Here he is just a few moments ago Let me start by saying this was a very good victory in the by election and I have said my congratulations to Andy Berham and I repeat them here. And actually my thanks to all of our activists and meembers who fought so hard over the last few weeks in what turned out to be a real battle of values, labour values against divisive reform values and a very divisive candidate. So that is a really, really good outcome. I think it is further evidence actually if you look at it in the context of other by elections, that the tide is turning on reform that they can't now win by elections. They've reached Probably the peak of their support and it' going down. So very good. congratulations to Andy Bernam, but actually Tide is turning on reform as well. So this is really important in that respect My question was about whether you phoned him and whether you still plan to take part in the imminent leadership contest because today we're seeing MPs who were loyal to you now saying, your time is up Well, I haven't spoken to Andy directly yet, but I will. I have said my congratulations to him So we're very clear about that. and it is a really important victory that he's got there. In relation to what happens next, obviously, we had a mandate two years ago to carry out change and we've done incredible things w years ago people said to me it is not possible to stabilise the economy and invest in your public services and bring down weaitingness. You' going to have to choose one or the other. We have done both. Two years ago people said to me, it is not possible to get migration down from the level that the tours lefted at which was nearly a million. We' brought it down to a fifth of that number. two years ago people said it' not possible to get a much closer better relationship with the EU, given what' goingone on. We have achieved all that. So a huge amount has been achieved. There's more to do, and that is what I am focusing on. What I was elected to do which is to serve my country. You seem to be talking about your legacy, Prime Minister. The vast majority of ministers and backbenchers and special advisers I speak to say private they think you're finished, is it time to set out a timetable today? I think it's really important to put the achievements that we already achieved into context, because when I talk about stabilising the economy When I talk about bringing waiting lists down and getting migration done. I'm talking about projects like this. I'm talking about people who need houses, businesses that need to thrive That's what drives me every day. I was elected here to serve my country with a mandate that we secured at a general election two years ago, a very considerable mandate for change. We are ping out that change. A lot of what we have achieved people told me wouldn not be possible. If we had sat here doing this interview at the general election twenty twenty four And you had put to me in two years time, the economy will be stabilised, in two years time waiting list will be coming down, in two years time, migration will be back under control. In two years time, we would have had the EU in the relationship we've got. And in two years time reform would be on the run and the tide would be turning. I would have said that would be a very good place to be, but that is the place we are in. So to be clear, I don't understand going to be involved in a leadership contest or not? Well, there is't a leadership contest there is at the moment,im There is one at the moment, but as I have said on many, many occasions, I dot think that iss a good thing for the country to putun this into chaos. I would also add that now that Andy is won, which is really important, really good, he is a huge asset to us There now will inevitably be a Manchester Mayorty by election starting straight away. It's important that we pull together for that. But if there is a contest, just to be clear with you, then yes I will run, I will stand, and I've said repeatedly, I'm not going to walk away from that I don't believe I'm a mess Can I get And this is up to you and you can tell me that I can't, you're in charge. Can I have one free pass on not being able to make my mind up Because I listen to that, he always sounds at his best when he's got his back against the wall And the things that he listed there, I know that the fall in immigration is going to be a disaster for the country in the long term, but it's what the country wants.'s just Counting, sadly, it's an opinion, the battle has been lost to the racists won that. And lots of people who aren't racist ended up believing what the racists told them, you might not like that analysis, but I'm sticking to it. And then he points out that, you know they' moving ever closer to the European Union. He didn't even mention the workers' rights bill or the renters rights, all the things that he's done will look quite impressive in retrospect And yet five minutes ago, I was adamant that he should probably Um, spare is all the nightmare of a battle and just clear the path for Andy Burnham into Downy Street. So I promise I'm not going to make a habit of this, all right. But I honestly haven't got a clue what to think. I've been saying for about a month that Starmer hanging on even when Burnham wins is underpriced. Th I saw the scale of Burnham's victory in Makerfield where obviously, if the support for him had been confined to people who were supporters of Kir Stara, he would have lost somethingomet very unique. can't have gradations of unique. Something specific and unique has happened in that bylection because of what Burnham represents I think if you don' agree with that, then you're deluded Should Starmer fight on? He won a general election with a massive majority about two years ago Oh I'm really sorry. and I can't keep going on about how sorry I am that I am blowing in the wind like a weather vvee on this guy and on this story and on this question So the more certain you are the more welcome you will be, although don't feel that you're not allowed to join me in blowing in the wind or swing like a pendulum. Should star let's just dedicate the rest of this hour to the clash Should he stay O should he go zero three four, five, six zero sixzero nine seven three. And as always, if your mind has changed as a consequence of what happened. yesterday, your position might be more interesting than positions that have been set in stone since time immemorial. So now we know Massive voter confidence in Andy Burnham, a huge injection of optimism and a huge securing of momentum potentially to carry him all the way to Downing Street. But if Kir Starmer stands in his way Would you cheer Starmer or would you urge him to move It's ten twenty one twenty three minutes after ten is the time. Well, here's a turn up for the books. having spent much of the last few months calling him a coward and reflecting on the fact that he refuses to appear on this programe despite me having accepted a challenge from him twwelve years ago neverever regretting it for a moment. Niigl Farr is called in to share his thoughts on what happened in in Makerfield yesterday. can we actually hear a serious clip of him talking about why he has only released a pre recorded clip of himself and won't actually be exposing himself to any interviews at all, even with people who just ask him what his favourite biscuits are ge Farsay live from his bunker. No one knows where he is and reports, of course, that he is going to rename his party reccluse are yet to be confirmed or denied But it is too kiss armour that we turn our attention this morning and a simple question of whether or not Andy Burnham put the writing on the wall last night. We'll be hearing live from Andy Burnham, I think shortly after half past ten, but until then, Chris is in Wigan, just around the corner from where Andy Burnham is expected to speak. Chris, what would you like to say I think it's inevitable that he's going to become the next prime Minister of this country. I think you put it very eloquently where over the last two years Oama hasn't really made any kind of he's not screamed and shouted things have what Libor has done if not got the message out and they've not actually said all the good that Labor has done over the last two years. It's taken till this morning for him to stand up and say I am the right person to le that It's not the only time he's done it but it only seem he only sounds steeily when his back is against the wall and he's usually And this is why it's hard to sustain sympathy or never mind support. He's usually backed himself against the wall Absolutely. I mean, the man looks like he's caught in headlights ninety percent of the time. No he doesn't project strong leadership whereas I think with Andy It then he's he is doubted and scream about what he's been doing in Manchester for the last onnting years. he is green it from the rooftops and got that message out. So the product want The product may not be massively different. We just need a more effective salesman I don't think I think it's having somebody who's going to be able to have Stones to stand up and say what he believes and and actually get that message out Be Starma does do that, it just doesn't land. That's what I mean by being a more effective salesman or a more effective spokesperson Starmouth throughrew absolutely no fault of his own is' like two cogs that don't mesh because some of the policies are magnificent and the twenty twenty hindsight, legacy chroniclers will will be in no doubt at all about some of the very significant things that he's done. Most people are completely either unaware of it or unmoved by it. I'm haunted by a call we took on Monday, I think, from a lad in Penrith. who was adamant that everyone he ever speaks to hates Starmer because he did what they wanted But originally he didn't. He then changed his mind and delivered exactly what they wanted, so they all hold him in contempt. That's such a mad position to hold And yet there's some truth in it. It's as if he's dg dug's in a hole so deep that he can't get out of it But he hasn't actually dug the hole himself, particularly I don't think he he outed himself by being so hesitant to either make decisions on people who made mistakes in the party I'm not asking them to step down quick enough or but other people say other people say it's me far too hard and far too quick to remove the whip We don't I don't think he has. I don't think he's been quick enough to act on anything. I think he was exactly what we needed after the last the setct of politicians that led this country, someone a little bit calmer, a little bit more relaxed and a little bit The anti chaos candidate, as it were. het he hasn't really proved to be the one thing he needed to be, which was strong on process. You can be as dull as you like, but be clear what it is that you do and deliver it He's strong on process and he hasn't done that. Do you I mean, you'll probably made a stronger stuff, But if he replaces kiss armor And the and it won't happen tomorrow actually, I should I should Review that. It won't happen until the replacement is complete and they start attacking Burnham, we could be sitting here by Christmas looking at personal approval ratings that have gone through the floor because sadly, as we've learned in the last ten years The British public is easily persuaded of things that are not true H on Facebook for the last three, four weeks and watch this election pan out and the attacks on him personally I don't think you could have got any more viteral I don't think there could have been any more hatred put in those attacks And he still came out on top withith a large percent And you're watching local Facebook groups, are you up there? Yeah That's crucial to stress. And I guess the other element of it is see these are the things that make me still and I think I will probably be dragged out of the studio kicking and screaming, describing Kistama as a man more sinned against than sinning Politics is a beauty contest and it is even a question of What sticks, isn't it? So you've got two people there all having similar amounts of oruddure thrown at them Star is quite sticky. Chris. Yeah, unfortunately and he just doesn't seem to have anything in him to be able to bat it offward. That's not me Yeah. that might bes going in front to the wickets with no pads on. I think that's a nice way of putting it. I was at the oval yesterday, although I'm taking no responsibility at all for what happened to England. The cricket analogy works It is It's not his fault, an awful lot of what has happened to him. But it is obviously the case that the country or at least those who don't want to see a fascist government have two priorities at the moment, if they are to resist that prospect. One is that you need a better salesman for the Labour Party and two is that you need a leader who isn't almost a magnet for I mean, the stuff they say about him. I don't know if there's a single person who this time last week believed that the Arson case was about Rnt boys who was now woken up giing their head a wobble and said, how on earth did I end up being such a wombat I don't think that those people Uh, I driving much of the discourse, not just on Elon Musk's platform, but beyond I guess the gamble now is that Andy Bunen, when they start telling lies about him They will be harder for the idiots to believe. and I'm not apologising for using the word idiots. If you thought that Kir Stahmer's home was attacked by people recruited by Russians because they were secretly rent boys that he hadn't paid, then you're an idiot. You're not just an idiot. You're an absolute idiot. You shouldn't be allowed to near scissors alone polling booths. Absolutely breathtaking how widespread that conviction was. You can see it if you dip a toe into all forms of social media. People even put it on comments under my clips on reels and Facebook and things. You just imagine how fundamentally stupid You would have to be to look at a story about an arson attack on a prime Minister's old house and believe a lie that it was to do with just I think if I live to be one hundred and twelve, I pray to every God there is that I never encounter stupidity on that scale from my fellow countrymen and women. But that's what we're talking about. Don't to G us to here with your headlines Granger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, You're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners Light's about to fail, filters ready to clog, Hack on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering, and twenty four seven support. Call one eight hundred Granger, click Ganger d.ot com or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done. thirty four is the time. We're expecting Andy Burnham to give a speech in about ten minutes, give or take, so we'll keep chatting together until then If you're just tuning in, you join us on an old morning. It's a morning where I'm hoping you'll be able to help me form a strong opinion because at the moment I just haven't got one. Do you think I'm just tired I saw the result from last night and I felt a brief burst of hope and joy because I thought, well, that's so resounding Things are going to have to change sooner rather than later. There's no way that that by election was fought within the parameters of Makerfield. It was it was a by election of national significance. Obviously it was because it is a precursor to Andy Burnham launching a leadership bid against Kir Starmer, and it's pretty hard to avoid the conclusion that that is what the people want The people of Makerfield, even labour supporters will have wanted that to happen U And then I heard Kir Thalmer speak this morning and reflected on what he's done and I'm back where I was on Monday, thinking that he is a man more sinned against than sinning. But all I've got at the moment is this analogy. He is in a hole so deep he will never get out of it. and it doesn't matter that he didn't do much of the digging himself. He can still never get out of it. So here's Andy Burn. And then the phoning we were going to have this morning at ten o'clock was whether or not you want a coronation or a leadership battle. But now we know we're getting a leadership battle because Stalmer has said he's definitely going to stand in one, which means that anybody on the sidelines wondering about where to throw their hat, a sort of Wes streeting even perhaps an Angela Rayner, almost certainly an Al Carn, hopefully a Dan Jarvis all of those people be reviewing their options as we speak. I usually mention John Major and toothe at this point in proceedings. and if you're very lucky, I'll explain to you why before eleven o'clock today. So I am a very opinionated radio presenter without an opinion this morning ands not it's a bit like not having any clothes on. It's like anxiety dream. It's a profoundly uncomfortable position for me I've interviewed both of them. In fact, we've got a wonderful archive of interviews now on full disclosure with all of the names I've just mentioned except Al Cares and Dan Jarvis. You want to find out more about Wes Streeting, head over to full disclosure. If you want to find out more about Angela Ryna, head over to full disclosure. If you want to find out more about Ed Milliband, who's still there He over to full disclosure. If you want to find out more about Andy Burnham, and probably you would quite like to find out more about Andy Burnham, then head over to full disisclosure where we sit down for an hour with all of those people and explore their backstory, their life before they became names that you know And here I am. a famously opinionated radio presenter with no real opinion except an effective and Acurate analogy involving a big hole under the Prime Minister I don't fully understand why, but You can tell me why you do or don't want K Stara to clear off. Jean's in broadstairs. Je, what would you like to say? Right, I would like Kirstara to carry on. I am a supporter of him. I think he's a decent honest man What I would like is that him and Andy to make an agreement like a bit of a Bair Brown. And they agree he can be brought in now as deputy lead every re placeace Lany And they then conf fight the greater Manchester Majority at unified because it's important really important that reform don't get that. So we don't need an inighting chaos blooming in the Labour Party. let's and then fite the all the bots and the misinformation and the foreign influence and all the that's going on together And with Stara who's got a real credibility foreign policy, know foreign b He can really focus and be solidly there with Andy Burnham doing the rousing calls and getting po obviously getting his own certain people in, but getting the shouting loud and clear on the home frront of all what's going on, which is so good. so much good stuff has happened and it really, really Yeah anoying But by the time of the next general election, who will be in charge Well I think that would be the agreement would be that Kir would announce that I will be stepping down Bler But he hasn't. It's too late for your analysis. He said I'm going to fight I know you're telling me what you would prefer, but he has said. There is a leadership. Now what I want this agreement over the weeame to happen that there isn't a leadership contest. They come out united and he has been reshuffled here and says I'm pleased to say Andy Bernam. comes in as my deputy. They don't have D deputy Prime Minister. justust people are confused Lamy is deputy Pime Mister. I think Lucy Powerell iss deputy leader. No, not you. you're clear on that. It's justuty Prime Minister, ye. A bit more like then. So it would be the Blair Brown agreement on a handover and it would be the Thatcher Hesseltine arrangement on the deputyhip trying to Well because she wasn't preparing to hand over power, but no she was acknowledging the momentum behind Michael Hesselton, if I remember correctly, which I may not. was it under John Major? I probably shouldn't have brought Michel Hesselton into it. No So I mean, I lived through it, but I can't remember it. Yeah and I don't think that's going to happen. I think yesterday's news was that Burnham had let it be known that he was not interested in a big job in the cabinet, which Starmer was talking about on Wednesday and that as soon as he att the very first opportunity, he would he would set that leadership battle ball rolling. and I think that will probably up. Yeah, that's what I'm here for. Don't worry, Jene. That's probably the point at which the glos starts falling off burnam for some people because it would be why couldn't you just be a bit more patient? Why couldn't you do it on terms that are best for the party. And then when there is a battle, can you see any circumstances in which Andy Burnham doesn't win? I mean I've got to say on a personal level, if I will still vote for Kia you know, I'm a labour member, and also don't forget I don't know. yeah, I suppose you're right, I suppose. but think I think it's a real real shame because I think as a double act, they actually could really reignite the Labour partarty as a real strong double act foreign and home and get across Labour does so much good. It's like Steve Reid came on this morning. He had he was doing a wanted to put forward about gazumping you know policy. What do they talk about? which I get it. We' frilled And also I can I just get this in? I was thrilled that reform and restore votes together. Yes. Labour still won by six thousand. Yeah, that was a bit of a red herring, wasn't it? Yeah, let's go for we've actually really, really beaten the the far right. hang on a minute. I think we can all agree Nigel Farad' vote got cannibalized by two tier policing and anti white racism Oh and family voting, I think. Oh no, hang on, it's a ninety seven percent white constituency. He never accuses white people of that kind of behaviour, does he? No, it's just a blood actually hang on Cryky Gene is a bit of a moment for you.'ve actually I've actually got him I've actually got him on the line. Here he is. Oh' lovely to hear from you,. Have a cracking weekend. Jenane, you take care, you put your point brilliantly and unfortunately and this is not the sole purpose of this morning's conversation, you haven't firmed up my opinion at all. I'm still a mess and I'm going to keep apologising for it because this is not what you tune in for You tun in for, dare I suggest somewhat arrogantly for me to explain stuff and then set out my own stall and invite you to either join it or start lobbing Lobbing balls at my coconuts. Jean did neither. she makes a very powerful case for the kind of calm transition which I think I would quite like to see, but as we've just discussed together, I don't think we will. So We cross it off the list. Alan is in Kimberly, Alan, what would you like to say Hi, good morning, James. goodood to speet to you again. Lwise. So I think he should go and the reason I think he should go is I think it's as good as it's going to get for him. I think I think unfortunately, yes, okay, he has made mistakes, but I think in fairness to him, the barrage he's received over the last couple of years, I think at times has just been horrendous. I mean at the end of the day, you know, he's He's still a human being, he's still a father, he's still a husband, he's still a person. But I think unfortunately now I say to you, your colleague, I think the state of our politics now Sadly, it's more about the personality rather than the policy And I think unfortunately now we are in that battleground where I think if there was a general election next year, the conservatives are so far in the wilderness, they're going to come nowhere near Libems might makeless hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Unless we start drilling for oil in six hundred and fifty constituencies.. in which case she's absolutely golden. Yeah Sismic Sismic We'll all be bathing in fifty pound notes because it' come flooding in. So the conservatives are so far into the wilderness now they're going to come nowhere near LibDMs might make little gains here or there I really do think unfortunately, the battle is going to be between labor and reform. I think I think that is going to be the big battle that will happen in the next general election. And Farage makes my skin crawl. He really, really, really does. But the one thing you can't take away from that man is the five million quid is the five million quid he was given secretly by Christopher Harbor? Yeah. What's the other thing the one thing he seems to be able to do is he seems to be able to engage. And I think unfortunately with Gave Starmer It doesn't matter how well he tries to articulate his argument, how You know, I mean, like this morning, he's, you know, he's not wronging what he's saying, The immigration figures are coming down. the economy is bit by bit starting to stabilize you know there is a little, you know, there's little spirts of growth where things are starting to get better, but I just don't think He's got the personality to really convey that message And I don't know that Andy Burnham has, but I know but we know that Kir Stalmer hasn't. so you roll the dice. Yeah, I think Andy, I mean, from what I've seen of him and read of him and what have you, I think I don't know maybe it's the Northern thing. maybe he's got that Maybe he's got that ability to reach communities up north that me think I said it a while ago. I think it matters. I think a Northern Acent matters. Now I don't think it should, but I think you're talking about optics or metrics or. The two words I've written down are salesmanship and stickiness Salesmanship, I probably need to explain the second one. Salesmanship is about the communication that you have and that's what you're talking about. Plausibility, authenticity. you can fake that, you're golden. And then stickiness, which is this bizarre. ability Kissed Armor has to be the opposite of Teflon everything got to him including this nonsense about Rnt Bys, which I mean the whole story was in you know, if you wound the clock back twenty years ago, if that story ever remotely came close to a headline. People have looked at it straight away and just gone what an absolute load of nonsense, bom, Fortunately, The social media world that we live in now it Exactly. People see those little snippets and they'll take them as gospel and they'll think, oh, well, it must be true. And they don't it's the critical analysis that's missing, I think unfortun with stories like that. But I think I think for Stara this The recovery he's helped to make is as good as it's going to get for him. I think if he holds on He's probably going to run the risk of more infighting, more squabbles, more battles between Streeting and Burnham and himself and Yeah. I mean, I think and I hope that you're right because you would have probably thought that the big majority at a general election would have put to bed a lot of the conversations that have Recently and subsequently emerged K occup Andy Burnham just making his way to a podium in that constituency where we expect him to deliver a speech imminently, so we will cross immediately to that. But you would have thought a general election result like the one K Starmas killed would have silenced all those voices And then you would hope that a victory like the one Andy Burnham seems set to secure in any forthcoming leadership battle would also silence the kind of voices and the kind into Nissine warfare that you describbe, but we've learned that it ain't necessarily so As they say, and here he is, here is Andy Bonam Thank you all so much The first than you I've got to do is to the people of this wonderful area who've lookooked after us so well, stubed across T thisy cllub everybody. And how about Ashton Town SC? I did score two down here the other night thought I bare mention that They've hosted us as well. What are we we're going to miss Galloways, aren't? Some of you are anyway. so thanks to Galloways. I could keep going on. But the thing is people here obviously have put up with a lot of inconvenience over the last five weeks, but they've done it with incredible patience and good humour because that's how people here are th that's the kind of the character of the people and the place. and it really came through in the by election. So just Huge thanks from us all. That to the People of all the proud places of the Makerfield constituency. reallyally, everything that you're about came through And we all owe you age huge debt of thanks I want to thank as well. I think you've just heard from them. You know it's Al the candidate likes to think that they win a campaign, but it's never the case. it's always The people who were really really calling the shots and I've got to kind of say today that this campaign was won by a band of strong Northern power women. I wouldn't mess with them. and I suggest that you don't either. But Lou Anise, honestly, you've been immense. I could go through everybody Grace. I'm going to shout you out as well. You've been absolutely Brilliant. There's too many more to mention, but honestly, what campaign they've led, and I'm so grateful to them You will all know if you go back to May This part of the world, people here. issued quite Clear call for change. In fact, I would say it was more an instruction that things have to change and somebody here behind me understood how serious that call was. and I'm talking about Josh Simon. so it's something that I want to say, Josh to you today Such was the power of what people said in early May You realized that this wasn't and couldn't be business as usual. It needed a response. It needed a profound response And you did something incredibly selfless. in stepping forward working with me to see how we did respond to what people to what people said. It is a significant sacrifice that you Leia who is somewhere, I think Over there wherever wherever you're there, Leia and the family maid But I know you did it for of the right all of the right reasons. And I think it's important this morning for me to put those reasons on the record and to thank you both your family publicly for what you did, because it does now open up the space for the real change that the people of this constituency deserve. Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Mayor. What is that change I did talk about the need to change labour in this campaign and we've got to now takeake this moment to answer the challenges that have been laid down. I did describe it last night as a last chance to change. And I think that's how people here kind of saw it when I was talking to them on the doorsteps and they said, Well, Andy, maybe we can give you our support this time But you know it's not a blank check, it's not ongoing. You have to respond to what people here are saying. You have to do something to make life more affordable put more money in people's pockets to give people more breathing space again so that they can have a better life. That's what people We're saying and we must respond to that We need an economy that works for everybody Not a few in far off places from here, but economy that works for people right here. We do need to bring down water bills, energy bills, rail fares, just as we've brought down bus fares in Greater Munster to make life more affordable for people We do need an end to trickle down economics, which didn't trickle down very much at all to places like this. We want to see a new drive of reindustrialisation across the North of England and indeed the rest of the country. and big change in Whitehall if that is to happen. And I'm talking about public procurement. It's about time we started backing British business and British industry so that we can re industrialise places like this. And yes, let's change the education system so that young people growing up here have clear paths into that new industry. No more an education system dominated by the university route, but an education system that offers a path for everybody. academic and technical equal balance. That's what we need if we are to change this. And when I say change to public procurement As a result of using the power of it, get more work placements for people, a guarantee of a work placement for every sixteen to eighteen year old who wants one. The guarantee of an apprenticeship. These are the kind of changes that we need if we are to give hope to young people growing up in this part of the world. And yet a change too from the Home Office. I heard on so many doorsteps, people's concerns about the unfairness of the immigration system, that cut price approach to procurement that means areas like this end up like HMO Britain. It's not fair that they think that they can just operate like that and not hear the call of people here, the decent people here who always will do the right thing, the compassionate thing, but not when it's unfair in terms of the way places like this are treated. These are the calls that we've got to hear and this is the change that we've got to bring. And I say it again, it is our last chance to change, but we're going to take it, aren't we? We are going to take that opportunity and we are going to lay out a new path for Britain. The one thing, the best thing that we can say about last night is that there was a risk, if you like that we would carry on seeing Britain politics of our country go down a path towards greater darkness. and division and ending up somewhere like the United States of America, where people don't talk to each other in the streets if they vote different ways or in their workplace. We will not let that happen here. We will bring people back together. I said last night I will be a member of Parliament for everybody. they voted. I will work on a place first, not a party first basis, respecting how people voted. I know people who normally vote for the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens perhaps voted reform in May. I know they gave me their votes to give me that last chance to do something. And I respect them for doing that. and I will always then work in the way that shows how much I value what they did. And that's the kind of change we need to, a change in our politics to make it work again for people. You know, I did say it last night and I mean it The word makeaker field in the future must be known as a by worord for the change that came to British politics. This is the moment. We've been on a path for forty years that simply hasn't worked for people and places in this part of the world. And this now is the change moment. We have an opportunity to turn the tide, to make the country feel like it's working again, to make people see that politics can make a positive difference to make people feel hope again That is the main thing I think we need in this country right now for people to feel a sense of hope that there is something better to work towards on the horizon. election result has opened up the possibility that we can now move forward together towards that future. And that's what I'm going to do. I will work relentlessly to make what the people have voted for here happen. and we will do that together, won't we? We will take the energy of this campaign. And we will bring it forward into changing British politics for the better and to make this part of the world, if you like the test, the make or field test at the heart of British politics, when policies come forward, if they don't work for people here, for the places of this constituency, if they don't lift up, then they shouldn't happen at all. We've not had a country run on that basis before. Places like this have often been an afterthought Westminster has looked past the communities of this constituency. Well no more. That changes today I'm going to finish by thanking you all again for thanking our friends in the media who've given incredible coverage to our wonderful part of the world. We've allowed the characters of this part of the world. I'm thinking of the questestion time audience and others who really it all really really shone through. But I'm going to come back to really what this is all about the people. wonderful thing about this by election and obviously it came about in very challenging circumstances, but the wonderful thing about this by election is for the first time In our lifetimes, it put power where it should be in the hands of people here They were the ones who had that power and they have used it and they have told us what they want. Now we will deliver it. Thank you very much everybody Andy Burnham there speaking live from Edge Green Street, the home of Ashton Town Football Club. I think we can all agree that it's wonderful to see the Northwest Countiess League Division one North getting their well deserved moment in the spotlight We will be catching up with our political editor Natasha Clke, if she's awake, she has been up all night and remains in Makerfield, in Ashton in Makerfield and we willll be able to talk us through some of the ramifications of last night and indeed some of the events. and she may have found Nigel Farage, who is currently missing. He has gone AWell just as he did after the Kerfilly election to the Welsh Senate but I'm sure he'll turn up eventually, probably with a pre recorded message and possibly even an interview in which he's quizzed mercilessly about his favourite biscuits and childhood assaults It is coming up to eleven o'clock. You are listening to James O'Ben on LBC. hope Joanna That's sorry. hope Andy, give me hope Andy seems to be the abiding message of that speech, but But you know what I'd like to ask you? M carry on with the question that's on the board already, but let's talk about the difference between him Three minutes after eleven. listen, I know we're having a little bit of fun with sound effects and fake public safety announcements, but we should pause to reflect on just how extraordinary and outrageous it is that a man whose party is still leading the national opinion polls refuses to talk to journalists in the aftermath of an incredibly important by election that his party was when it was called, expected to win. That is cowardice on a scale that you rarely see in frontline politics. and I would cautiously suggest to my colleagues in the broadcast media that until Nigel Farrich exposes himself to interviews that don't involve being asked about his favourite biscuits or which Toey wants tickled first, then we should all refuse to play his pre recorded messages You look what happens in the United States of America, you see what happens when the media doesn't work together to serve the public. And if all the man can do is release pre recorded messages when I've spent most of my adult life not being able to shut him up then it is both pathetic and dangerous. and I would suggest of course this isn't even going to be heed in my own radio station, but it's important to get the truth out there. Don't play the recorded messages while he refuses to speak to the media And I'd say go as far as to suggest that any people who he is prepared to speak to at the moment should wear that Willingness is a badge of immense dishonor But here we are. Maybe I need to eat my words because Natasha Clark is there and he's Nigel Farge. Is Nilel Farge here? I don't believe so, Jam I haven't found him yet. I've seen your call out though for information. I've got no information on the whereabouts of him. He was due, of course, to attend the Makerfield C overnight if indeed his candidate, Robert Kenyan did well, but we saw absolutely hide no hair of Mr Farage yesterday. The word on the street was that he had travelled back from Makerfield, where he was campaigning yesterday back from him since so he's gone into hiding j The phone line there with embarrassing news for Nigel Farage just went down for a moment. probablyrobably it's been hacked by the Russians. How big is this, Natasha? And I think we can safely say that it isn't just the win that matters, it's the size, it's the scale of the win Yeah, of course it is, James. This was a resounding win for Andy Burnham overnight and everybody was saying just a few hours beforehand, this is going to be close. reform are going to do really well. But actually in the end, nowhere near the restore vote plus the reform vote, Andy Burnham way ahead of that. And he's now got a nine thousand majority, which has increased, the majority that Josh Simons had twenty twenty four just a couple of years ago. So a resounding victory for Andy Burnhaman. he can now go to Westminster to Labour MPs and say I can be the man who can defeat Nigel Farage. I think that was really what he wants us to take away from that message that you just heard in the last few minutes. Essentially that he is saying to Labour MPs I can offer you that hope again. I can offer you that opportunity. We don't have to hand Nigel Farraage the keys to Downing Street. If he wants to act, then we've got to act now. This coming weekend is going to be crucial for those Labour MPs, James, because many of those are still sitting on their hands, they're not calling for the Prime Minister to go and you've of course heard from Kir Stama this morning who is essentially saying I'm going to fight if there is a leadership challenge. Team Burnham have repeatedly told me that they do not want to challenge the Prime Minister. They're not going to do so over the weekend. They can't of course until Andy Burnham gets into gets down to Westminster. Fraudian slip there. but many people of course are hoping that he will get into number ten Downing Street without a fight. They want a coronation The question is going to be what Kir Starmer does and says over the next few days. And if not, I think it's going to be cabinet resignations, and that is going to be coming James, I think next week, if indeed nothing moves over the weekend So Cabinet resignations to force the Prime mininisterial resignation. You can envisine circumstances in which he reviews what he said already this morning that he will fight in a leadership battle. You think that that could be a holding position rather than a conclusive one? Yeah, definitely, James. I think that's where we're heading. I think Kistam from what we've heard this morning, it sounds like he's digging in. He has been saying for weeks that he will fight a leadership challenge and has made it known through his allies that he would like to fight. So I do imagine that there's going to be a bit of stalemate, a bit of who's going to fire first. Team Berham are insistent, however, they do not want to be the one to pull the trigger on this. They do not want to be the one to fire the starting gun. Obviously that's because of what happens within the Labour Party. Sometimes the person who ws the knife does not wear the crown and they are very, very well aware of that. So I think Team Burnham are hoping that Kir Stahmer can quote smell the coffee as one source put it to me and wake up and realise that he is not going to be able to win the next election. and actually Andy Berham has just proven that he can beat reform with a resounding win. That will be the argument that he will be making to Labour MPs over the weekend. but we may see a total stalemate where effectively Kistarmer is holding on to power Andy Burnham is calling on for him to go and calling for that next step of change that you just heard from in his speech. but actually nothing happens. So we could be up for a stalemate. What happens to break that stalemate? Well, there's two scenarios I'm seeing or I'm hearing at the moment. One is cabinet resignations. There's been lots and lots and lots of chatter about Ed Milliband over the last few weeks up campaigning here in Makefield, he is close to Andy Berham. I know for a fact that he has been on the phone to people here at this campaign HQ throughout the campaign. He is keen to know what is going on and there are rumours that Andy Berham may offer him a big job in his government if indeed he does get to number ten. Will Ed Milliband humiliate the Prime Minister by walking out of cabinet along with others, potentially obviously you heard from Lisa Andandy last night on our Lewis Goodall oververnight programme. She said she would not be walking away, but there will be others having those conversations over the weekend to see whether they can essentially leave the cabinet in order to try to force Kir Stama to stand down. We saw what happened with Boris Johnson when all of those cabinet ministers resigned and that eventually led to him resing The second scenario, James is a stalking horse candidate. I'm hearing the name Al Carnes be banded around. I'm hearing other names be banded around by Team Burnham as a potential to someone to start and pull the trigger. Once the trigger is pulled, you can't put that Gie back in the bottle. So I think those are the two scenarios that could play out, but I think we're up for a weekend of waiting watching, waiting and seeing. I think the magic number is eighty one. You'd need eighty one supportive MPs to pull that metetaphorical trigger that's right. I don't think we will need you again. today because I'm worried that you haven't had any sleep at all. Am I sounding delirious, Jam? No, you're sounding magical as always. But I'm just thinking I can't foresee any developments that would demand your presence here. So do feel free to get some kips And then Eleanor will wake you up very gently in the event that something happens that we do feel need your input. Is that That's very kind. Thank. Well, thank you. extering work from you and indeed from Livis Goodall overnight on LBC. Nice to know Lisa Andy's still around. I was beginning to worry for her. I thought she might have disappeared down the same well that Nigel Farrer has apparently fallen into, but no, the culture seecretary is alive and well and appeared on LBC overnight. Speaking of appearing on if not LBC, then certainly one of my platforms, then the full disclosure interview that I did with Andy Burnham, I think back in twenty twenty two is now available or I mean, it's always been available on the global player, but it's being bumped up, if you like. It's been brought up from the vault. so it's very, very easy to access. We've dusted it off, given it a fresh coat of paint. And it's interesting because of course what full Disclosure does is try to tell you the story of somebody Before their name became a name you know. And Andy Berham very much in that category. they're all there, as I mentioned earlier. I forgot to mention David Lammy. he's there as well. A few Tories in there as well, but before they all went mad. So you I think Dominic Greve has done it, Amber Rudd has done it. evenven John Burko has done full disclosure, although I'm not sure you can call him a Tory anymore because he was actually up in Makerfield wearing a vote Andy Badge I'll say that again the fans of how mad British politics has become In recent years, John Burko was up in Makerfield wearing a vote andy badge. Time now is twelve minutes after eleven I'm going to squeeze a quick call from Alan I Prestwich if I can. And then I think I'll run you through the four ways in which Starmer could be ousted from Downing Street. And then I think now that we've heard from Andy Baron and I think actually, I think Allen is about to kick this one off. The difference between them. It doesn't matter whether it's fair or not. But the words I've written down repeatedly on my doodle pad. This morning are salesmanship and stickiness, next to a picture of two unmeshed cogs. I may explain the second bit for people who don't listen to this programe as regularly as they should. afterfter we've heard from Alen who's in Prestwitichch and Alan, I should add that you are a labour councllor. so presumably champagne corks popping in Prestwitich last night There were champagne carks popping in Berry because there was another local. and and we battered reform And so yes, they are they are beatable and Andy showed that. The difference I think the difference between Andy and Kir, I think you've said that Andy is a brilliant communicator. Is he brilliant? I mean, he might be better than Kir Starmer, but he's very very good. Is? I mean, yeah, he's very good. I mean If people aren't listening to LBC on Thursday, you does what's called the hot seat and the BBC loal radio station. I'm not quite sure how I feel about you advertising the opposition in the middle of my program, Pal. I'm sorry' not their neck. I mean is there a catch upp option they can use? Can they listen on catch upp? Well they can Yeah. All right, Well let's not be sending people over there to the to the I mean, I say opposition. I've got one and a half million viewers. listeners, they've probably got about fifty thousand. but heyho, every every every every ear counts, Alan, carry on Tell me what it's like on that phone in. without telling me where it is or who conducts it. On the rival phone and he is excellent. He has a way about dealing with people and you know he can do no wronger here. and you know, just this thing is he has this way of communicating people of actually making them feel special. and you know and I didn't see much evidence of that when he was in Westminer. I've got to be honest with you Well, you know, I mean, look, he's up here. you know, I've served on committees with him. He's very good, you know, the bit about British jobs, well, we've actually done it in Greater Manchester. All our bus the buses we buy are either made in Northern Ireland or made in Scotland. you know we're commissioned bridges that are made in Nottingh.' well know, it's part of local procurement And so yeah, but unfortunately, you know If I was K the last you know, I mean, I hope K can walk away with his head out there because I think it sadly, doesn't deserve it Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that It doesn't deserve it. It's a very, very decent man But it has to happen And I think there's been too many mistakes made. And whoever is in charge of Labor's commommunications has been a disaster I mean, we have done a lot of good stuff, James, a really lot of good stuff. and it just doesn't talkch through the people out there. And that's the problem. I mean, that's why I've written down salesmanship and stickiness. So I mean, salesmanship is a little unfair a word to use because it speaks of a certain slickness, doesn't it? You can be a brilliant salesman be selling snake oil or poison and still sadly manage to get a lot of the public on s. But let's work on the presumption that the product is a positive thing Andy Burnham is clearly due to the skills you describe going to do a better job of selling. Is he susceptible to stickiness I can't remember a politician to whom ofen ludicrous Criticism and abuse has stuck. We have sat here and we do this for a living, Eleanor and I have been sitting here now for the best part of a year marveveling at the approval ratings or rather the disapproval ratings of Kir Stara. Got a little glimpse perhaps earlier this week of why. it can't all be down to social media, but if there is enough people out there prepared to believe the nonsense about him aying rent boys, then they're probably going to believe anything up to and including two tier policing, anti white racism. But none of that explains the absolute depth of his disapproval ratings. They've gone lower than Liz Truss. that might be a tragic sort of mark of Cain that is peculiar to Kir Starmer. Are we supremely confident that Andy Burnham in this context is less sticky than Starmer Because when the attacks begin, they will be vicious Well probably began about thirty seconds ago on but they will be unrelightening because that's what the right wing press does you know, and and know it that's what they do And it done it with all labour politicians. It did it with a demonized blair. they did it with Gardens. it did it Andy has to be prepared for that. But the thing is So a lot frustratedly sometimes Kid doesn't come out fighting. Yeah you know, if it was me Every week I would tell Kemmy Badench and M the recluse about the cost of Brexit you know, yes the cost of Brexit and that's the only you know, that's the thing, James that really annoys me about the Labour party. we say we don't want to open old open old ws about Brexit is killing this country financially. That's why people are are really cheized off because there's no money because the economy is down by about three hundred billion a year of which one hundred billion will be taxes. There's your roads done, there's your defence spending, there's your extra money for the NHS. And will labour power to we hire from it instead of coming out and attacking people. Makerfield is a huge leave. area as well. So you know it's a bit of a tight rope to walk, but unfortunately everyone knows what's at the end of the rainbow to mix my metaphors. It has to happen eventually. so why not Get it over and done with from a position of strength. Well, I've got you. what's going on in Bury? Burry? Be You only dropped one seat up there in May. Well the rest of the country was hemorrhaging support left right and center. and this victory that you rightly referred to from last night for Councillor Walmsley. means that reform will not be able to form a majority out there. So something in Berry is bucking national trends. Do we know what it is? Yeah, we c But is that it N there's a lot of experienced campaigners. in the veryer Labour partarty. We've been around a long time. We know where our vote is, we know how to campaign. And a lot of a lot of our councillors like Sandra Wolesly who was elected in twenty ten, peopleople know Sandra. they know the work she does You know, people see it and that accounts And it's the casework, James. It is that when you're helping people with problems. And you know, and that's what we've good at in Bery under the leadership of Aiman O'Brien, who's now head of the LGA, you know, people have said what a good job Aimman O'Brien's doing. And now I think he's leading the LGA. And so yeah, you know, if people want to come up to Bery, which is just north of Manchester, because some Some of us do speak like me with Aman Kaxen. You know you know well the other thing with Aman Caxsen, I think we'll shly see returning is thank Gods that it's Angela Rainna, please come back and Um And but you know what we are we know out a campaign And we campaign all year round, James. It's not just election time. We are campaigning all year round. And that's something that we haven't seen at the national level in two years, really, Is that? Just even that sense? just to ask you this. I know I'm a bit late for the break, but in terms of that calculation that appears to have backfired horribly. You know, because when he says he's brought immigration down A lot, he's right And I don't think we'll argue about whether or not the country has become a place where that is widely perceived as a positive. Does that tally with your experiences on the doorsteps If you say immigration' come down by four hundred thousand people go don't they don't believe it Didittle believe it because again, our comms in the national Labour Py is awful. It really is, isn't it Yeah, it's awful. You know, immigration come down. Waiting lists have come down. The economy, despite Brexit is you know he's going okay. Imagine what it is We were open to a market of three hundred fifty million. And you know, the good stuff that we've done, you know, I mean, no fault evictions, trade union rights. U no to think it All this I mean this is where I get a little bit skeptical because I mean how much of that is the fault of the communications depepartment and how much of that is our bent media? Well, I just think yeah, it's a bit of both, but anle we're in government, James. So they should be able to do something. And they haven't they haven't even come off Twitter where they're making absolutely no impact whatsoever. although one senior government figure one department has decided to stop using that hell hole as giving it a patina of, if you like respectability by using it for government analysis. And and I always enjoy talking to you but more perhaps today than than ever. And congratulations on the result that you secured in Mide, I think it was Up in Berry, twenty one minutes after eleven is the time. I like this conversation. I like elements of it, but I also like these two things that have dropped out of our contemplations this morning, namely salesmanship and stickiness. And whether or not, as the dust settles and as you begin to your own position begins to crystallize, Whether Andy Burnham is giving you hope o three, four, five, six zo six zero nine seven three because Well you know what I always say about hope? I can't bear it spare I can deal with to paraphrase cock clockwise It's the hope that gets you. but I got a horrible feeling that that thing either it's wind H. There is an early burgoning of hope deep in my belly as a consequence of the conversation that we've had so far What about you? Is it wind or is it a bubbling, a buurbling an early indication of hope engendered by the new MP for Makerfield Andy Burnam. It's eleven twenty two. What does he have to do?hould we do that as well? So I mean, hope is not a strategy, is it, as Annie points out in a text, But it is, however, whether you like it or not It is a message, It is a seductive message. We all like hope, don't we, Joanna. Do I need to explain that or No, I'm not going to. I'm going to leave it hanging to create an air of mystery that hangs around the programme. Give me hope, Joanna. Cool with the K. What does he need to do It's really funny becausecause if I'd asked you this question about Ksed armor two years ago, you would have said to me, either with a heavy heart or with a racist twang. You would have said to me, he needs to get immigration down or he needs to stop the boats Starmer has brought immigration down, and the number of people crossing the channel in those vessels is massively reduced year on year The question of what does Burnham need to do? A actually, that's really interesting, isn't it Stm has done what he thought he needed to do. I'm going to read you something. Adam in Walgrave' up first, but I've got some phone lines free now. So zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is the number you need. I think the first question I asked you was a bit vague, but by all means feel free to answer it. Does Andy Burnham give you hope J Anna. But the second question, more substantive, what does he need to do What does he actually need to do? either in terms of policies or in terms of performance in terms of product or in terms of salesmanship What does Andy Burnham need to do in the event of becoming leader. So we're going to talk as if that's a given, which it isn't, but this is my show And I think that's an interesting question. He is talking as if he's on the march, isn't he? The King of the North is heading south Look up your daughters What is the that's just a figor of speech that you use when People are marching on your city. It's not a reference to anything else whatsoever What is the At top of the to do list, if Andy Bernam were to replace Kirstarmer sooner rather than later, What does he need to do zero three, four five six zero six zero nine seven three. But first let's just run through this because a few of you are a little unhappy with the idea that K Starmer is more sinned against than sinning. a phrase I may be slightly over using because I love King Lar so much where it comes from. But as No Hostages points out, one of my most reliably insightful correspondents, Labour's problems are not primarily the result of hostile media or impossible expectations. They are largely the result of Starmer's own strategy, messaging and management We would start He suggests with the Island of Strangers comment This was hero voter politics in action, tailoring Labour's message to socially conservative swing voters. And instead of winning over the right, he alienated many anti racists, many liberals, and many ethnic minority voters Then there was Gaza Many on the left watched as Starmer defended collective punishment resisted calls for a ceasefire and then oversaw the arrest of more than three thousand Palestine action protesters That was not damage done by misinformation. It was damage done by his own choices. My commentary now, you have to set against that. The fact that his position has been sufficiently robust to earn the absolute hatred public probation of Benjamin Netanyahu, but no hostages point stands, of course. Then you've got the two child benefit caps One of the most effective anti poverty measures available was ending it and Starmer chose not to For many labour supporters, that signaled fiscal caution mattering more than reducing child poverty And then there's Peter Mandelsen again. My commentary would remind you that everybody thought that was a great idea And then suddenly didn't. When voters wanted change, Starmer repeatedly turned to figures associated with the new labour establishment. whichich I have to say, mate, what do you think Andy Burnham is But anyway, the message was not renewal, it was restoration And then the pensioners. they could have framed difficult decisions around wealth, fairness and taxation. Instead, the message many people heard was that pensioners were being asked to take a hit. The politics of that was disastrous. And then the way he treated people like Diane Abbott and other left wing candidates, the centralization of power left many members to conclude that some factions were welcome in labour while others weren't. That's quite niche Also relevant. And here is the problem. Starmer's goal was to lose some support on the left while gaining more support on the right That was the theory But Labour has mainly lost support to the greens, the Liberal Democrats and independents, not to mention Plyde Cumy and the Scottish National lists while reform as well at the same time has Are you're wrong to say it's kept growing, but it certainly remains ahead That's why many critics don't see labour's decline as bad luck. They see it as a failure of strategy, a failure of messaging and a failure of management. And those are the things that star us remains responsible for He and his ideology have failed utterly powerful of a powerful position at power and indeed well argued with some caveats that I interjected and that I didn't interject because most obviously a couple of the big things there he did reverse on, but somehow that made a bad situation worse, not better If I'm making a mistake and I change course, that should be better than what would have happened if I'd stayed on course Again the curse of Kirirststama seems to be that he's doing something unpopular and he changes course and it doesn't affect his popularity in any way at all, except perhaps negatively Is that human nature or is that again peculiar to him? Is that the stickiness paradigm bad salesmanship and stickiness. Everybody gets a lot of rubbish thrown at them, very few people seem to stick to it quite as much as Kir Starmer does Anyway, back to the phones after the headlo, I'll give you the number in case you want to be joining in zero three four five six zero six zeroine seven three. here's Dominic Edis with your headline thirty three minutes after eleven. You sound pretty confident about Starmer going, James. I think he'll stay and I will donate an extra fiver to the dogs trust if he doesn't. Will you put your money where your mouth is or is it too risky for you? Asks Jonathan ineal. I'm not allowed to take bats live on the radio, I don't think. and I can't I'm a little bit scared of even sort of doing a little nudge in a wink here in case O C get cross. but if I ever meet you in the wild, Jonathan thenen yeah, I'd shake on that. I think he's toast I said at the outset there's a thirty percent to forty percent chance that he isn't, but I think he is. and I've probably been generous there. Stalmer is not a bad PM, says Thall I don't know if it's that one or not. Starmer is not a bad PM, however, he is mortally wounded. and if anyone knows about mortally wounded, it's Thor. He needs to get out of the way. I love you, James, says Bob and Durham. But the big winner yesterday were obviously the Tories, a seismic victory for them. I heard Kemi say so. You're not going to take me seriously now But I think that that actually is a significant result. I think the conservatives are actually in a strong position and not just because I think Kammi Badenok is magnificent and I dream of having a single cintilla of her self belief because if I did, I'd be poked But I'll tell you why shortly. I think we need to take a couple of calls. Let's go back to Berry All good things come from there. Nick, what would you like to say All right, James. All right Celebrating well just about this. Go on then, tell me why And what he needs, I'll tell you what he needs today. Yes So he alluded to it a little bit in his speech there's a way of saying bringing more English jobs, bringing more facilitating British industry being better for schools and thingss. There's a way of saying that without sounding like a far right idiot. There's a way of saying that brings a nation together that makes you go, yes, we're not going to depend on people that are living abroad to build our industries and have their say. We're going to br we're going to build and we're going to deliver for the British people. And there's a way of saying that that brings every single person together And he simply needs to capitalize on this. You're describing style rather than substance, but at least in the first instance, style matters more than substance Certainly, it gets people's attention. It gives people that believe, I don't believe that everyone recently has just become you know completely devoted on immigration or become you know far right I believe that a lot of people that are voting for reform or remask, whatever they're called reccl Yeah recl have decided to they're saying that the politics aren't working for us. We need someone that's going to deliver for us as people. We're not our wages aren't going as far. We're not going on as many holidays. Our shoppings bills have become ridiculously expensive. It's not working for us and we need change and I believe that he is the hope that people need without without. So what you've got What the calculation is or what the big hope is is that he's perceived as a clean skin becausecause they all say they're going to improve your life All of them say that. The Tories have been saying that for fourteen years. Recluse say that, Reclaim, say that, restore say that, I don't know, reflux, say that, regurgitate, say that. revulse, they all say that And of course labor say that, but I think quite unfairly, Kistama has somehow been paddled with the idea that he's part of what has gone before. Well it hasn't worked. It's time we gave someone else a go, which is how they justify putting an absolute idiot in charge of the country. and yet Andy Burnham, who is clearly not an absolute idiot or indeed a racist or a sexist as the candidate he beat in Maker feelield boasted about being a proud sexist Burnham could be perceived nationally Despite having served in Labour cabinet, despite having run for the Labour leadership twice before, he's put enough distance between himself and Westminster to be perceived as a fresh pair of shoes or someone well, we'll give him a go because all the others have failed. He's somehow managed has he? Do we honestly believe too remold himself, to rebrand himself as an outsider here I think it maybe has actually Yes, Yes, I did realise I was still on. Yeah I know how long my interruptions take? I That's true. Yes, I think he has. I really think he has.'s amazing. He's I think he's got the huspar to to give it to the other parties as well, to bring a lot of the things that they have done that have brought this country into to disrepute. you know, to the surface. And I think Kistama's very much like, no, no, no, I'm going to rise above it. I'm not going to say if I'm just going sometimes you want some to fight just say these things. Brexit has destroyed the country. You know There are lies being spouted by reform every single day. No one's talking about it. Let someone bring this to light, let people know facts, That's of being a hope. You can tell I'm very passionate about that. Yeah, and I like that. I mean, not in a patronising way. I think we need more passion and we need more positivity actually, rather than a political discourse that's been dominated for a long time now by constant whining and bogus victimhood and victimization and othering and attacks and racism. And Bernam won't do any of that. I don't know what he'll be like on Gaza, do you Be I don't know that there's much wiggle room for a British Prime Minister, Labour or consonservative. I don't think there's much wiggle room there despite Netanyahu having absolutely hemorrhaged goodwill and support for Israel in its current Incarnation. hopefully that's something that a future Prime Minister of Israel will be able to rebuild and indeed restore. But I don't know that Berham is going to come out with what the left of the party wants to hear. I don't think he can come out with what the left of the party wants to hear, which would essentially be a complete cessation of all diplomatic ties with Benjamin Netanyahu's government He needs to be careful very careful with G. If he's smart, if he's smart because obviously what's happening with Netanyahu and Trump at the moment, he just stand back and watch the fireworks because you know I think spark's being lit and we're going to see something explode. And we'll follow America instead in condemning Netanyahu's government, not Israel, but Netanyahu's goverment when the time comes because I think that feuse has being met. Yeah, maybe. And as I predicted yesterday, have I got my Mystic Jym production yet C they haveven'. February twenty seven, I reckon. As I predicted yesterday, Netanyahu would probably torch the peace agreement that everybody was celebrating yesterday before the day was out And speaking of an extraordinary image that I should have told you about for actually, I need to just double check it's completely for real. I double checked something yesterday was completely for real Because someone sent me a picture of Nja Faris drinking a pint in a pub And that was him Um celebrating England or supporting the England football team. And I'm such a sweet summer child when somebody suggested to me that it was exactly the same pub on exactly the same evening, wearing exactly the same shirt and drinking exactly the same pint that he was photographed enjoying two years previously at the last Euros. I thought now, someone's used AI Someone's someone's done a manipulation, someone's used Photoshop. There's no way Nigel Farrage holds his own supporters in such absolute contempt that he thinks he can post a two year old picture to pretend he cares about the football Despite so many of the players being black, which was really upset that Sarah poaching woman tell you something about it as well. He holds his supporters in such complete contement that he can post a two year old picture pretending he supports the England football team. and they won't notice But that is indeed how much he hates his own supporters because he posted a two year old picture. If you didn't know this, it's completely true He posted a two year old picture of himself drinking a pint in a pub wearing a football shirt in order to pretend that he was supporting England again against Croatia And there's a little bit of you that goes, oh, is this some sort of three D chess Is he doing this because there's only one thing worse than being talked about and that's not being talked about? and it will upset all the right people and he's try to he's trying to own the libs or he's trying to own the lefties. And I thought, I mean, I don't really care if it is because if you're so stupid and I'm sorry, but I am going to be using that word a bit more in the future If you're so stupid that you're now lying to yourself about not caring that he's a liar Oh he's great. Yeah, really likes the football. He's drinking a pitepe and the pictureures two years old. That's how stupid he thinks you are. that you either won't notice or when someone who cares about you tells you You won't care His calculation is always that you won't notice or you won't care about how awful he is. So there he is, even the football. But compared to what that woman did yesterday, Sarah Poacin, Nigel Farage is in the shadow end of outrageous behaviour Who do you think Sarah Poaching, the woman who hates seeing brown and black faces on her television? Who do you think she blames for Potential upticks in domestic violence when sporting events are on the television So there are measurable upticks in domestic violence when big sporting events are on the television. It's important to remember that they are almost always existing cases of abuse worsening during sporting tournaments. So these are ers, scumbags, domestic abusers or indeed Faral rioters because twenty percent of the people that got arrested at the last one subsequently turned out to have been arrested for domestic abuse U Who do you think she blames? So if God forbid, some poor woman was to be battered by her partner during the World Cup. Who do you think Sarah Poachin would blame for that that the person doing the battering or somebody else Have a listen to this and Tell me that I'm not going mad. England won the football last night and thank goodness they did, because on the occasions that England lose their football matches, the incidences of domestic violence go through the roof, so boys, keep winning So it's the footballer's fault If u If you stepad step dad beats up your mum nextext time England lose It's the footballer's fault If someone does so. What was the name of that guy who got elected to Parliament on Nigel Farer's ticket at the last genereral election. Turned out he was someone that beats up women. James McMurdot was it? That's the fella. It's the footballer's fudge. Did Eingman lose thatight when James McBurdock battered his girlfriend and then went on to be elected to Parliament as part of Nigel Farrat's partarty. Was there a sporting event that night? Because if there was, I think we've misjudged the guy Haven't we? it's not his fault, he battered his ex. was it was the football team that lost that night that were the reason why sometometimes you look at these people And you think, I mean, are they evil or are they stupid or are they both And I think in her case, it's very hard to resist the conclusion that it's a big fat both, right So she doesn't like seeing brown and black for o donon't think So if a person of color Batter somebody All right, let's say a woman, let's say a white woman. The person of color batters a white woman thenen it's about immigration for these people, somehow every person of colour in the country is on the hook for what happened to that woman, just as every person of colour in the country was on the hook for the scumbag that murdered Henry Novak Remember it was fresh in your memory. They tried to make it about immigration, despite the fact they tried to make it about racism. Nigel Farris started lying about anti white racism. Henry Novak's family pleaded with the public not to tell lies or to make it racist or to use it for grounds for division or to riot. and Nigel Farris encouraged people to completely ignore them. called for pure cold raate So a white person dies at the hands of a brown person in a crime that had absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity or race, and this lot starts screaming about ethnicity and race But in the event of a white woman being battered by a white man It's all the fault of a football team that is One of my colleagues suggested this morning It's because the England football team has so many black players in it If it was a liily white football team, she wouldn't be suggesting that it's the football team's fault when someone gets battered by their own partner Now that's bonkers, right? There's no earthly way that her brain is that war But what other explanation would you come up with for how somebody could be so obviously Is it stupid or sinister It's as if because it's not just that you' sat there and you've had a thought, like sort of accidentally soiling yourself and then regretting it and thinking God, I hope nobody's noticed. It's as if you've accidentally soiled yourself and then decided to get someone to film it and post it on social media the logic is so warped. and so here is a story about domestic violence Rising in households where domestic violence already takes place when England lose It goes up by about thirty eight percent. It goes up by twenty six percent when they win or draw, by the way Pumably because alcohol has been taken and tempers are high and scumbags batter their partners. So even if they win, it goes up by twenty six percent. She's too thick to either do the research on that or understand what the figures truly mean But it's not the thickness of the position that I marvel at this morning It's the decision to film it and then post it publicly Here is me being gross and stupid I'll tell you what, grab that phone will you, Keith and film me doing it And then we can stick it on social media. Listen to it again, all right? and tell me whether this is one of even by the standards of this shower. This is one of the most disgusting things any serving politician has said in recent memory. England won the football last night and thank goodness they did, because on the occasions that England lose their football matches, the incidences of domestic violence go through the roof, so boys, keep winning So when a person of color commits a crime, it's all down to immigration and all people of colour are responsible for it But when a domestic abuser commits a crime, presumably she's imagining it happening to people that she cares about, which means it must be white people because we know how she feels about black and brown people. she can't stand seeing them on the television, let alone worrying about their circumstances or plight, then it's all the fault of the football team, which happens to have a lot of black football players in it. How bizarre And of course, the point, if you're minded to defend her or to pretend to believe that what she has said isn't as disgusting as it sounds, the point is that The incidences and the University of Lancaster did a study on this. Lancaster did a study on this not long ago The risk of domestic abuse in homes where it already happens. inccreases by twenty six percent when England win or draw I mean, it it's thirty eight percent when they lose, twenty six percent when they win or draw. So even when they win the domestic abuse goes up. So what you should be doing as a member of Parliament is condemning abusers and offering perhaps words of support or advice to victims of it, how to get out of those kind of scenarios. But she's not even doing that She's saying, let's hope they win. carry on winning lads because then the chance of that woman over there getting battered only goes up by twenty six percent instead of thirty eight percent. I'm Sarah Poaching. I'm so thick, I can't count We We are clip tastic today. We've also got an unhinged headline eleven fifty two. Should we do the unhinged headline? Let's do the unhinged headline Keith, T timee for the unhinged headline Unhinged headline. That was the unhinged headline sting. How'd you like this one The establishment is terrified of Englishness. it will get stronger Who do you think? If I said it's the second Uh what's the word I can use? I've overused stupid today. It's the second most ridiculous man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson. would who would you go? Let's actually wait and see on this. I see you send in some an The second most ridiculous man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson And I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, how can someone in the House of Lords be railing against the establishment, James? To which I would answer Brexit. Brexit, Brexit, Brexit Here is someone put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson because of their brilliant contribution to the glorious success of Brexit. They're the second worst man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson because of their brilliant contribution to the brilliance of Brexit I'm going to pause to give you an opportunity to submit You'll suggest ye, well done. No, that's the worst person put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson for their brilliant contribution to the absolute brilliance that was Brexit. You're all getting it wrong. You're all going for the worst person. Th about it. It's not if it's not Daniel Hannan. the world's wrongest man, then who is it? The second worst man put in the House of Lords by Boris Johnson in recognition of their brilliant contribution to the brilliant Brexit that we can all agree is brilliant Who is it But did you say No, he's not in the House of Lords mate It's frosty. Trusty the no man Frosty the Omark, David Frost, railing against the establishment because it is terrified of Englishness. Am I part of the establishment for these clowns? do you think? Who is part of If you're in the House of Lords And you sort of buddies with Boris Johnson, and you negotiated Brexit And you used to run the Scotch Whiskey Association. What is the establishment that you're opposed to? Is it me and Carol again? Is it me and Carol Vorderman? Is that who it is, David? Who is the establishment that is terrified of Englishness? I'm just going to have a little think about Englishness and see whether or not I get terrified Nothing. How can you be terrified of Englishness, you ridiculous man Absolutely incredible. I don't even know if that's an unhinged headline. Do we need a new category? Do we need an entirely new category? beyond unhinged headline? What would we call it Obviously, we'd call it beyond unhinged headline, but until then we'll have to make do with this. Unhinged headline. Well done. About I'd say sixtycent to seventy percent of people got that right. and I accept all the apologies from people who suggest that it was Daniel Hannan, who is obviously the most ridiculous person that Boris Johnson put in the House of Lords. And he is often to be found writing in the Daily Mail, presumably on the days when Dick Little John has taken time off to watch more episodes of Camber Wit Green in pursuit of insights into why Britain is going to Hell in a handcard. Adam is in Walgrave, if he is still there because that was an uscripted little tangent. Adam, what would you like to say? about Andy Burnne Well, just briefly following on from Sarah Potchin, I think the reason why there's a uptick in domestic violence is because they've not got racist riots to go to. But I'll put that to one side.. I mean I know you're being a little bit not glib, but mean the Venn diagram is terrifying. that the number of people on those farage riots who have been done both before and after their arrest at those riots for domestic abuses is staggering actually, so it is very much it is very much their people that she's talking about. Anyway, where were we? Well, come back for whether there's hope with Andy Burnham. Yes there is because he won and yes there is because Nigel Farage is now in hiding, which is a great great aspect. You' you seen him, he? He's not in Barkkshire. No he's no. We know he won't be in Clactton and we know he's not in Makerfield. He could be anywhere else. couldould he be in Thailand with the bloke that gave him a secret five million quid, you think he could have flown out to Thailand I don't know what he dress is like he might live in Berkshire. This is true. This is not true. Yeah ye. you have tried tri to join him, because he's a man of the people have to remember that. You know. Thank you. I sometimes forget But going back to what I think that Andw Berden really needs to do, and perhapsaps squres a circle a little bit with your your difference of opinion about Kirst Starma it's just got to communicate with conviction because the problem with Karstamer is that the times when you noted that he comes across as being convincing when his backs against the wall or if he's referring to Henry Novak and calling out Nigel Farage is when he's got the conviction and then it comes across But the rest of the time, he communicates by triangulation and you always get the feeling that it's always thinking about what it might say that might affect one portion of the electrate as opposed to the other And as a result, nobody knows what he believes in And I think in the end of it, people would much rather have someone stand up and say what they believe in, even if you disagree with him. you can say, well, he's got some principles and you know what he says. And this I think is the real shame as far as Kir Starm is concerned, because I do believe he was that person He only came into politics, I do believe, genuinely, because he thought it was the public service. I think he's lost that and that's the problem. There's a strange thing there, isn't there? this idea that you Arive for your first day at work in your dream job And you realize by lunchtime that you're not very good at it I mean, it's quite poignant when you think of it like that. A life of preparation and an extraordinary victory. I mean, you went through the job selection process and you left You left corpses in your wake. You were magnificent at every interview. I mean, I don't think he was necessarily that magnificent, but the result that he got was historic Yeah And then he got there and just wasn't very good at it. and he surrounded himself with people who were worse, perhaps, or were the absolute opposite of what he needed I think the real shame is here from what his current position is the morning this morning because it can really, you know, upset his legacy by insisting on fighting on and causing the chaos. The best thing I think that he could do is set out a timetable while' leaving when he's leaving, giveive Andy Byron the time to set out during the summer what his prospectus is, what his difference who would make, and then know do a smooth transition and by and large keep As far as the policies are concerned, most of them are good and have been working. They've just not had an effective salesman to actually sell them with any conviction. Yeah I mean I don't think I'm going to be chucking away this note. Am I salesmanship and stickiness? Do we know why the stickiness? Why was Starma so sticky? For people tuning in, I should probably just clarify that All politicians get a lot of well all left wing politicians get an extraordinary all labour politicians get an extraordinary amount of abuse thrown at them and lies told about them But rarely does it stick quite as effectively to one as it did and it does to Kirara? Do we know why that is? Is it partly because of what you've been describing? is not It's not very effective at picking off the barnacles as it were Yeah I think he's too passive. Yeah. So to give you an example, I think here, all of the stories that we've had about someone firebombing his house and the car and all been linkeds to Russian disinformation.. if he had been I would have thought there was a perfect opportunity for him to go up and address the nation to say about what the risks are that are coming from Russia on a personal basis and say it with conviction Why wouldn't he do that? Why wouldn't he do that? Because I think he doesn't think that's really part of his job description or appropriate to bring my personal life into it or to keep his family out of it. I don't know what the reason would be, but my goodness me, if there was ever a moment to say look, this is what we're up against. And it's time that some of those people over there stopped doing the bidding of Russians. And I don't just mean Nigel Faragage's mate who's literally in jail for it. I mean all of the people who are amplifying this nonsense and constantly essentially shilling for the Kremlin. we need to move as a country against this. even if we disagree about what's best for the country economically or socially, can we all agree that we need to be standing firm against Russian interference in our democracy and it ties in with every's other agenda. As far as the social media under sixteen, they could have communicated it all together,ull pulling out Nigel Farage as far as cryptocurrencies, all of his previous positions as far as Russia and ev' concerned, and demonstrate what is the reality of it is. It iss for foreign stakes. He didn't understand that bit of the job almost And it's not just good enough. And of course he hasn't been great at process, which is for me the cardinal' sin You can't just concentrate on process, even if you're brilliant at it, you also have to fight the propaganda war. You have to fight the dirty war And he doesn't seem capable of doing that. Nick puts it very well. and he just puts it's like he's still carrying the Ming vars. And it's time to throw it at someone Isn't it Yeah That's the point that Adams just made very well. It's twelve o one. I'd like to continue with this, but in many ways, it's up to you because if you don't, then I can't. So what is the difference between Kir Starmer and Andy Burnham? And if Andy Burnham is leader sooner rather than later, what does he need to do zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three. And actually we haven't done much on this since the beginning of the hour beginning of the show If you're in Makerfield, if you're in that neck of the woods, if you're in Ashton in Makerfield, if you voted yesterday What can you tell us What does that by election mean? What happened on the ground? Why do you think Andy Burnham secured such a massive victory? And what repercussions does it have for the entire nation So tell me why this result matters to the UK and not just to Makerfield. becausecause of something that happened there. I know the numbers, I can read the room and I can count, unlike Sarah Poachin But um What happened up there of national significance to explain, justify or possibly refute the optimism that people are feeling that? Andy Bernerman might be the man that can deffang the fascists. It's twelve o three It is twelve seventeen and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The difference between Starmer and Burnham and then the others I mean it's Royal Ask at this week, isn't it? So the slightly longer odds The runners and riders who we aren't talking about yet because the leadership battle hasn't been triggered, but who may well toss their hats into the ring when it is And come come at me, you know, from unexpected angles. Is there a politician I haven't mentioned? If you fancy a politician I have mentioned, then tell me why But is there one that I haven't mentioned? because you know Cameron is an interesting character. David Davis had been anointed as the next conservative leader when Michael Howard was preparing to to depart, although Michael Howard had already anointed David Cameron. it's a fascinating little bit of Tory history that One of the only occasions in British political history where the outgoing leader prepared the ground for the successor, as opposed to the successor being someone who's played a role in the defenestration of the predecessor So Howard knew he was going? And he had a peaceful departure from office and he'd got kind of people like Danny Finkelstein and David Cameron and George Osborne. He had them preparing for power even as The national narrative was that David Davis was going to take over And then there was a party conference and Cameron delivered a decent speech and Davis didn't, and suddenly the pendulum swung. And the next thing you know, David Cameron is leader of the Conservative Party and then blinking you miss it, he's prrime Minister, albeit in a coalition Anything can happen is the point that I'm making. so we probably should avoid staying in the trap that says it's storm up, Burnham Bus is most obviously and most immediately rather unfair on West Streeting, so What do you reckon? Wh who might be the outside Daniels in leads, Daniel, would you like to Oh, hi, James, the first time we've ever spoken. you say that? We could have spoken before and just not noticed. Yeah, o. For me, it's Al Carnes. Is it? Yeah I think for two reasons, two main reasons why I think both Andy Burnham and Kestama aren't suitable Why not? So So The first one is polarization in Britain. I think you want a character, a leader who could potentially unite the country And I don't believe that Andy or Kia have the necessary gravitas. or personality to bring people together. I just don't think they really appeal to those. Well a minute. We hadn't heard about our card six months ago, had we? How can you suddenly had a masterclass in what a winning personality he has? What have you seen now, I haven't seen. I wouldn't know him if he walked into the room now No, and that's in some ways excuse hang on a minute.' s I' terrially sorry you're not alhanes, are you No, no, no no not you. I'm just talking to the person who just came into the room its not it's not, it's not our cs. It's just here to refresh my teammug. Carry on, carry on Okay, so he spent most of his career in the military and he held a senior position within the SAS. So I don't think he's S'BS, wasn't it S Oh yeah. S I'm going I don't know actually. it may have been the SAS. G on what my point being is But two things. So first of all, I think he takes defense very seriously You were son with Dan Jaris Jarvis, Jarvis. Darvis. Give me a J. J, giveive me an A Hey, sorry, carry on All right. And I do think for those who I think you would be able to appeal to people who may be I in and are in between, let's say labor and reform. I think his personality comes across Maybe as a bit of a strong man, but I think the fact that he is a military background, he's very capable physically and he's got a commanding presence. He's as hard as nails. So we can agree that what they need next. they need someone who's as hard as nails. and sounds bizarre. It really doesn't. I don't think it does It's a political leader It is crazy that you would think, okay, what does this goal prowess have to do with leading a country. But it's not just that when you listen to him, he sounds like somebody who has U a lot of integrity And really wants the best of the country. And he doesn't sound in any which way slimy or political because he's only been in politics for a few years. And a great backstory as well. raised by a single mother in Aberdeen, went to a local comprehensive school, the Hazelhead Academy. and then as you say, joined well originally he was a Royal Marine commommando. He enlisted commissioned in september two thousand two rose to capaptain, got promoted to major in twenty ten, joined the spepecial boat service. served in Afghanistan five operational tours in Afghanistan, mentioned in dispatches in recognition of gallant and distinguished services in Afghanistan during the period first of october two thousand six to the thirty first of march two thousand seven, he received the military cross again in recognition of gallant and distinguished services And what we're looking at now in this country is fake patriots sticking tatty flags on lamp posts and pretending that there's anti white racism out there. And one of the best antidotes to that you're suggesting. and I guess with my High regard for Dan Jarvis I am too is just stick the real deal up against them. Exactly a hundred percent And that's it. And in terms of labor values, yes, I think he stands for All the best things I associate with the Labour partarty. I'll vote for any party. and I have voted for Tatories, liib Dems and Labour. Basically, whoever I think is the best place to lead the country at any given point in time And I think as well, when it comes to international relations, I think about the war in Ukraine, I think about Britain being undermined by America, and you think, okay, who do you want to be in the room negotiating on behalf of Britain's interests on the international stage And I just think given his background, obviously I don't know the guy Again, it comes under gravitask. I don't think you'll be intimidated by Trump How can he be intimidated by Trump? He's climbed Mount Everest Exactly know That's true. That's not a figure of speech. Aording to Andy Berham. No, but he's never climed Mayo Everest. does he? No He's never been in a firefight. He's bare barely been up Scarfld Pike. Exactly. Sue's being in touch. She says canan you please let people finish the sentence and stop interrupting them with your childish interventions? Can I just clarify, Daniel, you enjoy my childish interventions? Yeah yeah, it's good b. Exactly that. Thankk you. Yeah, get lost, Suue. It's twelve twenty four. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It's true that I didn't know that. God, everyvery day's an edation isn't it? This is why I like this topic. tell me about tell me about one tellell me something I don't know about one of the other candidates. So if Daniel would run in and say, Hey, James Al Kant climbed Everest. I'd gone shut up. I'd know about that you know, look at what. He climbed Everest. It was only last year. He climbed Everest last. Did you know that, Keith You didn't even know who Al Carz was last year, did you I'm still not entirely sure I'd recognize him if he walked into the room now, but I know that he climbed Mount Everest with four other ex spepecial Forces members And they used Zenon gas to speed up their altitude of climatisation, which some people think is cheating, to which he responded by saying, Look, the reality is if I had six to eight weeks to climb Everest, I would. But I'm a government minister and I don't have time. So I use magic gas to climb Everest Oh man alive. I can see the argument here. Who else are we going to put on the list And of course you can include Bernam and Starmer as well, but you get extra points for bringing in somebody new conversation. Daniel, thank you. David is in seven oaks, David, what would you like to say Hello, I think Ella Jones, how are you? Very well, David.er well. I'm feeling quite inadequate the more I read of Al Cultter's Wikipedia entry, the more pathetic I feel about what I've done with my life. He climbed Everest last year. What did I do last year, Keith Nothing really Carry on baby. I didn't even write a book mate not last year, No, Carry on, David Okay. I think the most important thing about last night this morning was that we got someone with a political background running a running the seat that Andy Burnnham went for. I'm really scared this country is going in a place of Trump where a Fox newews presenter is in charge of defense?. And you know, if you get a plumber, nobody h plumbers with no political background, running major field Gad that didn't happen. You know, I'm scared to death for this country. My son came down the stairs this morning, he steen, said, Ohh, Kistan has resigned. I said, No, he hasn't. I't know that I said, why, he said, Oh on TikTok. He's resigned U I'm notuck So it's got to the point where I'm trying to explain to my son, he says I love reform. I said, lookook It's getting bad. it's getting bad. Let's just try and stay with the grownups in the room, shall we Let's just try and get politics to do politics to do politics And move on from there. I don't I don't like this analysis. I mean, I mean, I know exactly what you're saying in as in a sort of professional doing the job. But there's been a successful attempt in recent years to sort of demonize the notion of the career politician. Burnham's not a career politician. He has worked outside of politics, but he was a spAad. and I don't know that that is quite it might appeal to you and that is obviously all that I've asked you to provide by ringing in. but I don't know actually that it is as powerful as having, for example, a proud record of military service. I think that's a much more impressive thing to bring to the table at this point in our political cycle for precisely the reasons that you that you cite because obviously I also worry about the direction of traffic that you've described Yeah, I mean, I've just taken up a counlling course as well because I run an architecture practice and we're falling flat on our feet at the moment. something need a bit of a boost. Can I ask you a personal question? You canand do. I mean, you seem like a decent blke. How on earth has your fifteen year old son ended up falling for Farage's nonsense Oh, TikTok, He just sees all these quick things on TikTok all the time and Nick his phone Nick his phone and reprogram his alor it so that he gets more of me. I'm all over TikTok apparently. I know you' James. You need to repro recalibrate your son's phone seriously, before it's too late. Telve twenty eight is the time. spepeaking of dangerous politicians. Would you like I've finally worked out somethingomet about Donald Trump and I've been put in mind of it actually, by I've received quite a poignant message from someone I know about Domestic violence and the appalling intervention of Sarah Poacin, essentially blaming the football team in the event of the uptick in domestic violence that always accompanies big sporting tournaments, whether we win or lose. And I've received a message from someone who describes the Refuge and women's aide who run the twenty forty seven National Domestic Abuse Helpline as having saved her life and the number for that iszero eight oh eight two thousand two for seven. So I hesitate to reach for a metaphor of the abusive husband or the abusive father, but if you want to understand How Donald Trump's inner circle treat Donald Trump I think it's very helpful to have in your mind the idea of a completely unstable parent or teacher Maybe not teacher uness you went to a school like mine, a completely unstable teacher. There is nothing worse for a child than inconsistency You do something on Monday and you get given a biscuit by an adult because they love it and you do exactly the same thing on Tuesday and get and you get clip around the a because they are dysfunctional and unstable and quite often abusive. I think we can describe Donald Trump as abusive, verbally abusive, certainly in his approach to other human beings. So I'm going to play you a clip after the news of JD Vance, which was the moment Coud cleared for me in what you do if you're in Donald Trump' inner circle but it is an intervention of such extraordinarily pathetic osturing from Vance that you almost won't believe that the man can be vice presresident of the United States. But it's a crucial key to understanding how Trump manages to carry on Trumping. But before that, Amelia Coch has your headlines When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there's no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done It's twelve thirty two. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Is this real or is this an AI mock up designed to humiliate JD Vans And it's interesting that so many people like If you give Donald Trump an IQ test with the other forty five, forty six presidents that the United States has had I guarantee he'd be either near the top or at the top. Gone. AI or real And it's interesting that so many people like You know, If you give Donald Trump an IQ test with the other forty five forty six presidents that the United States has had, I guarantee he'd be either near the top or at the top he wouldn't even beat the ones that are dead Seriously. JD As there, that's what they have to do, isn't it? It's like they'reiving him a peace prize. They can't really give him a prize because he's the vice president But you're dealing with an unhinged bully You have to keep bringing him biscuits, you have to keep patting him on the head. The man's eighty years old And they still have to keep giving treating him as if he's a recalcitant Toddl And that's just pathetic. J Vance is a grown man And he has to publicly pretend Donald Trump is clerer than Barack Obama I think was a professor, wasn't he before he went into politics. Donald Trump was was a well, man can't even turn a profit running a casino It's just amazing to sometimes note these moments that have become so commonplace that we don't register them anymore, but talk about a national decline So I'm putting together a list of what the next leader, the next Prime mininister needs to be, working on the slightly unfair provviso. presumption that it won't be Ker Starmer. And I think I mean, sadly perhaps depending where you sit It is highly unlikely that he's going to hang on, even if he currently insists that he's going to try. And who else should be in the mix? So we've had a fairly powerful account of why Al Carnes should be, although almost every single thing that was said about Al Carnes could also be said about Dan Jarvis Northern Do Alct have a Scottish accent? I can't hear his voice in my head. He does, does he? I think he does. Can we hear their voices? Can we get some voices on? Be I think voices are important. and a backstory is important. don't know if you're ever going to beat for backstory. I don't know if you're ever going to be bloke, the bloke who grew up in a drool There has been a challenge in politics, in labour more broadly where you've got people from a certain background, a certain social class, a certain perspective u who U exercise power And I think it's one of the reasons we've got a big divide in our country actually. sa I saw a survey today, a bit of research that had the general public when they asked about the social back class background of different politicians I think there were more people there were way more people who thought I was middle class than working class And there was a sizable group of people who even thought I was upper class And it made me laugh because I As I said in my speech this morning I spent the first few days of my life living in a drawer In Man's cououncil house in East London My mum was a single mum And I lived on a counil estate we experienced not just hardship, but proper poverty growing up It has shaped my politics, my outlook, and my determination to make sure that kids from working class backgrounds like mine have the same choices and chances and opportunities as those in the most privileged backgrounds. What worries me about the state of Britain today, especially think about the next generation? is that it's not just the working class kids like me that are suffering is Middle class kids of well educated, well off parents who are also feeding the pinch and that is the big mission for the country now as an element make sure the next generation are better off than the last. Living in a drawer I have to be careful because obviously I had a relatively privileged upbringing and I that don't want to Mck where streeting because I think that his story, his journey is incredible as you can hear on full disclosure when he sat down for a chat with me. But I wonder how important it is. I mean, I'm making a list. I think now a Northern accent matters actually. That's something that West Streeting hasn't got But I also think a backstory that resonates beyond the middle classes might be important as well What else are we going to put on the list and which candidate most fulfills it? So that's Ed Miliband finished He's got a northern constituency, but he has a very much a a southern way of speaking and does not have a backstory that involves either particular poverty or bravery So a backstory and an accent So not exactly It'sall heavy duty or sophisticated stuff, is it But Angela Rayner, of course, was a single mum, also raised on a council of state. I think this stuff matters. so Northern and backstory You've got Rayer and you've got Burnham not Burnham. you've got Ryer and you've got u Well, let me leave it with you. Tell me what you think. Mike's in Stain. Albas, Mike, what do you want to say? Hello. Hello So I think a potential candidate for leadership or very high office would be Lisa Nandy U She, for me, is a rare breed of politician who when asked a question just answers it you may not like the answer or you may have some disagreement with some of the things she says, but the fact that she doesn't avoid avoid the question to me deserves a fair bit of respect these days I mean, I can't argue with much of what you've said, and I like Lisa Andandy. She's someone else who's appeared on full disclosure. It's as if I've done the entire cabinet without noticing actually, Mike. It's been shocking as culture secretary, hasn't she She struggled with the BBC on what to do with it. I' think anybody would. you've got GBB's running rampant, you've got OcOM essentially pulling its own teeth out. You've got all sorts of questions regarding online safety and Asolute failure to do anything or put anything in the space where Leverson two should have been? I think she's widely regarded as one of the most disappointing members of Stara's government, albeit that she remains one of the most loyal, and I do think is possessed of all the qualities you've described on the rare occasions when she finds herself being interviewed U Well, I mean, the thing is, I suppose as a leader or even as a deputy leader in a Burnham government, perhaps she She will surround herselves with better advisers. I don't think necessarily it's always the the minister that is the problem. It's the second tier of Yeah, that's true. P peopleeople informing her U But I think if Andy Berham was was to become Prime Minister, he in order to be successful, he needs to have a clear out. So a lot of the people that are too tightly tied to Kir Starmer would have to That's a really interesting question. Aually I hadn't thought of that because it's all very well talking about Andy Berham being a clean skin. but of course you've got a huge pool of people to choose from. and the more closely allied you are with Starma, the more trouble you've got so probably off the top of my head, the most vulnerable members of the cabinet would be Rachel Reeves and David Lammy Yes. And and for me Ed Milliband, he to be a successful politician in a high office you have to carry the people with you you don't have to make them agree with you one hundred percent of the time, but you have to take them on the journey. And I don't think he's capable of doing that. Maybe not, but he's certainly someone who I think Kistan is probably more worried about Ed Milliband resigning at the moment than any other member of his cabinet. I don't think she fits into the category of being a too closely allied with Starmer to survive into a Burnham government. I think he is actually quite likely to be in a Burnham government. I know and that's the one thing. I mean, I as a somebody who's never really been a core labour voter, I'm kind of moving towards them as time goes on because think I think a strong labour government now is the only way we're going to not have a reform government U And the and The millibands just just don't do it for me. Yeah No, o. that's fair enough. I mean, Net zero is much, much, much more popular with the public than you'd ever imagine from looking at British media, but madeiband a kind of sense of him having had his go and therefore having having had you know, having blown it again, we tend not to give second and third bites of the cherry in British politics to people who won leadership elections. If you lost one, you can come back again as Andy Burnham is about to remind us and about to prove to us. J just on that I think and everyone's going to laugh at me for saying this, but I have actually been saying it for a long time and my tongue has been sort of slowly coming out of my cheek. Kemy Badenor is going to turn things around for the Tories, Ply because they cannot conceivably get any worse, and partly because voters like you would Gravitate more naturally towards her, wouldn't you than towards a labour leader, if they begin to look even vaguely competent again Yes, I think you're right. And think I think she is She is a rather better leader than she is sometimes given credit for. I think the problem is that she arrived in the job about years too late. Interesting. mean, I disagree with you. I think she's absolutely awful, but I think her self belief is hypnotic and contagious And that begins to translate into electoral fortunes. It's as if, you know It's as if people really did believe that the emperor's new clothes were visible to clever people. You know Kemi Bayor just marches around saying, look at my magnificent robes and she says it so persuasively and so convincingly So even I sit there sometimes thinking, God, where does she get her robes from She's incredible She's my favourite politician at the moment, Cami Bader not. I just think she's such extraordinary value And every single time you think that her delusion can't go any further, it does All the way up to Aberdeen where she seems to think that promising people will carry on drilling for oil in a place where they drill for oil is a mark of electoral genius. It's a bit like going to a place where there's an enormous bread factory and campaigning on a promise to eat more bread And that's it and then going, We've won because I'm a genius. Now give me some bread. So she's gone to Aberdeen and won an election because she is constantly going on about how we need to be dragging more fossil fuels into the environment and polluting our atmosphere even more. And arrguably the only place in the United Kingdom where that is an absolute vote winner is where they do all the drilling Well where the people who do all the drilling genuinely lives? Guinely live. Mike, thank you. Chris is in Beaxxhill, Chris. What would you like to say So for me, I don't want to reject the idea that there is a favorite or there should be a favorite My point is that I think the British public are more interested in what this new labor leader will do rather than who they are I'm And say that really phrases from Makefield here basically people have like powerest behind Burner because He represents kicking out Stara and you know, changing the direction of a labour party. And I think that it needs to be a fundamental message here, whether it' burner or streeting or whoever takes over, they need to basically have a complete change of direction What direction do you want them to go in I think that actually fundamentally, we've got real constitutional problems with the UK I think we need to you talking about electoral reform has a massive priority We also got you think they mind? Do you think either of them mightind I think I think if they're smart, they will ines No, I don't know. I don't know if they are. But like yeah, if you're smart, you would do that because it's actually in the interest of the Labour Party because you could called an election tomorrow. stand on electoral reform and I'm pretty sure you'd win it just basically on that one issue or nothing else at all. I mean, you could not change your position on anything and just hold a added to reform And you'd win the election on that. I don't know that that's true. I think you are very plugged in and clearly quite political and therefore your understanding of issues not to insult anybody else is probably a little deeper than the average. And electoral reform, the more attention you pay to our current, as you would describe it, a constitutional crisis or the splintering of itional politics, the more attention you pay to it, the more irresistible the case for electoral reform becomes. But most people aren't paying that much attention, Chris. posossibly. Yeah. I mean, the reason I say that is I think you know, I think people need that change. They want to see that things' changing. They want know some sort of concrete plan for that change you know, do you're going to them with that, you know, you separate other things like, you know You know, splits in the public around things like immigration or the EU or other things like that, it's a concrete change. Yeah I mean, here's the thing. We need to move as far back towards the EU as we can up to and including rejoining. and immigration, the battle of progressives has been lost the country is a place where So many people are persuaded that it needs to be lower that arguing that it doesn't need to be lower is a fool's errand, whichever party you belong to, albeit that I respect the parties that are still trying to do that. They're never going to form a government in Westminster. the weirdest bit about that, of course, is that it hasn't translated into any positivity for Kir Stahmer. He has literally decimated immigration. He's brought it down at a rate of knots that Boris Johnson could only dream of despite promising it at every turn and and yet here we are. He is historically unpopular prime minister and he's about to be toppled from within and yet he has done that thing that everybody two years ago, when I was doing phone in about what does Kist Aara have to do? everybody was shouting from the rooftops, he needs to bring immigration down. So sometimes The thing that we think we want, the plan that you talk about can be delivered on in the public being a fickle old bunch tend not to u either notice or care about the thing that they swore blind they cared about two years ago So I think the biggest problem here is that you he shouldn't have gone down that rooute. I think if you're a reform voter and you try as the labour leader to try to capture that vote and say, o, I'm going to adopt reforms positioning on immigration, all you're doing is legitimizing that position and you're alienating your base and the people that are genuinely, you know, you know who are basically Yeah they're just going to go to reform anyway because you were just say a diversion. Yeah. I wrote about this the other week. Are you familiar with the WW Jacob short story, The mononkey's Paw No, I'm not so. Mate, it's a brilliant story. and essentially it's something that you wish on But the catch is that your wish will be delivered But in a way that is terrible, in a way that will make you wish you'd never wished for it And in a way, I feel that Kirst Aarmer wished on a monkey's paw for lower immigration and then he got it. But Farage has gone full cold pure rage and let's have some more riots kind of stuff. So It's come true. immigration has come down, but it's meant that the racists who were constantly wanging on about immigration have had to stop. attacking the police and making claims about anti white racism. So it's as if it's come. Can I ask you a question What time is it Well time is it. Yeah U Tend to Ten to one because I've been I look at the clock occasionally when I'm talking to someone and I've looked at the clock a few times while I was talking to you and I've thought Either you are the most boring caller I've ever spoken to or something quite odd is going on Because you're not the most boring caller I've ever spoken to, not by a long distance, you're a fascinating bloke. but my watch, my clock in the studio has been stuck on twelve thirty nine for the last ten minutes And nobody's noticed That's great, isn't it? Top team. They're all too busy getting the production ready for my new feature Mystick Jim. So the time is not twelve thirty nine. Here I am staring at my thing thinking this is extraordinary. I've been talking to Chris for ages, but it's still only twelve thirty nine. When Chris came on, I thought I'll just take him up to the twelve forty five break And then we'll go to the break and we'll come back and we'll do something else. So I keep glancing at the clock and it took me a while to realise we're nowhere near. So what time actually is it It's ten to one When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done. G afternon, this is awful, Jimmy, absolutely awful. I'm just going to run it by Eleinor before I read it out. but when I said a few hours ago, feels like hours, certainly felt like hours during that last gu. I kept looking at the clock it's twelve thirty nine still How long is Chris going to keep talking I know that's a little bit pot kettle. It's still broken that clock, so I need to keep an eye on that clock over there. twelve fifty three. I better shut up. Here's a clip of full disclosure from this week featuring the author of How to Train Your Dragon Cres of a cow, who was an absolutely delightful Delightful interviewee I truly delightful. as you'd expect from someone who creates extraordinary sort of fantasy universes not just the one that's inhabited by Hiccup, of course But where that came from, now Hollywood have come calling, of course, there' the animated and the live action versions of the story. But where it all began was fascinating to me, and I suspect will be to you. didn't do this consciously at all. And again, I think I mean, it's going to sound It' so pretentious when I say it, but who cares? I'm just gonna go for it. I think you partly know what you're doing, but it's quite good to partly not know what you're doing when you're a writer. So I can't say I absolutely knew that Hiccup was me and Stoick was a version of my dad, but after I'd done it, my goodness you know, I drew that picture of Hiccup, a small lonely Viking in a feiars and frosty land. is frosty land. That is Hiccup. and then I drew Hiccup's dad. And the island is a version of my childhood. Yeahah, my childhood on that island. I sense you can't have one without the other. You couldn't have the picture without personality the way you talk about it, I can't draw I probably can't write either to be honest. but the way you speak is as if the two are beyond interchangeable, they're kind of utterly Yeah inextricable. Yeah. I certainly if I come to a difficult bit in the books or I will always go back to the pencil or to the pen, or if I'm you know struggling to define a character, I would draw the character or a location I would draw a map the place and as soon as you've drawn the map of the place, you know it's treating an imaginary place like it's a real place and you know how long it takes to get from one place to another. So for me, the unconscious comes out when you put pen to paper. you know a pencil it's the first instrument that you use as a child twelve thirty nine is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Christa Cal there the Creator of how to trarain your Dragon and the guest on this week's full disisclosure. We've also resurrected an old interview with Andy Burnham from the archive. They're all there. All my full disclosure interviews are permanently available on Global Play or the LBC App or wherever you get your podcast. but I thought it would be a moment to direct you quite deliberately towards the Andy Burnham one because people are going to be looking for a crash course in who he is and what he stands for in the coming days and your wish is my command. Speaking of who people are and what they stand for, and I played you the A little clip earlier of Sarah Poachin, essentially the reform UKMP, essentially arguing the domestic abuse that we see a huge rise in During sporting tournaments, regardless of whether England win or lose, but she hadn't bothered to do that bit of the research, such as her genuine concern for victims of domestic abuse. She didn't even care or know that it goes up when England win by about twenty six percent and by thirty eight percent when they lose. But a few of you have reminded me of her leader's attitude to women's rights as well, which I still don't think enough people have registered