The Architects of Brexit and Success

This is a Global Player original podcast It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC How do you process the fact or the possibility, I think, not the fact that something you really care about doesn't matter anymore Is there anything like that? Just have a little think. something that when you were a younger person or Perhaps relatively recently, you thought it was of paramount importance And now you're just not sure it matters anymore. Or a slightly different version of the same phenomenon you realize that you're beliefs in something or your beliefs about something. Perhaps than mere opinions, but your beliefs about something built upon flimsy foundations are built upon things to be fairer perhaps no longer apply. So you have to actually review your beliefs. You can't believe in something based upon a fact that is no longer true. I don't know whether I've ever really believed in anything more when it comes to things like education and sociology. I don't know that I've ever believed in anything more. benefit of a university education for P peopleople who aren't like me And I'd probably need to qualify that a little bit So growing up, unlike both of my parents It was pretty much a given that I would go to university. And I started university in nineteen ninety one which meant that I came out with a little bit of debt, but a tiny fraction of what I would come out with today The reason I'm using myself briefly as a lens through which to look at this story is because that's about class Such a difficult word to define and yet so easy to use class, isn't it? There's another story in the news today, which we may well move on to in the next hour, telling us that the children of white working class families are the most likely to play Truant from school. We may look at the whyys and the whereforeors and indeed the withers of that a little later, but class and education The reason I sort of spoke quite pompously a moment ago about it being one of the absolute guiding lights of my own personal Iology, if you like, or my own personal politics, is that The thing that breaks you out of the mold that you were born into is education It is the thing that abbssolutely changes your life. One of the weirdest things about growing up having had an education like mine. is when you start spending time with people who are just as clever as you are didn't have an education like yours And you realize the doors that weren't just shut to them, but which They never knew existed. It's not even that they could see the door and rattle the handle and not get through it. They never knew peopleople never knew these doors existed. And I don't mean exclusively career based opportunities. I mean everything else. So the idea of extending a university education to People who came from backgrounds that would never really have considered it to be a possibility struck me in nineteen ninety seven when the Labour government turned it into a major priority as an absolutely beautiful thing And if it didn't involve the epic amounts of debt involves today it it categorically still would And therein lies the problem That's why I talk about wondering whether it's time to change your beliefs. because a university education in twenty twenty six almost incomparable to a university education beginning in nineteen ninety one like minded, the relationship between Cost and expectation, fulfillment and experience is I mean it it's casmic a word, Keith. like C H A SM I C. Casmic casmic. I mean it' Keith says yes, so that's a word. it is now. Whenere iss the dictionary being published mate? In time for Christmas? stick it on the website.ill working on it. Well done. What you up to? Oddvark. Casmic is a new word. I mean, it is it's enormous that Glf and it's odd because Until a few years ago, thanks to you, as always, when it comes to me changing my mind or realizing that my positions may be built on slightly flimsy or very flimsy foundations, it's almost always down to you or therapy, but usually you I would draw I would have approach conversations about university education. from the perspective of my own experience. You know, inevitably. I always like to think I'm not like one of those ludicrous newspaper columnists who's opinions are based entirely upon their experiences in the nineteen seventies, but I obviously am susceptible to the phenomenon in the way that anybody would be, because where did you frame your opinion about X Well, I framed it when I first encountered it. Now, you can't even say X anymore. Can you cons of that ridiculous man? When did you frame your opinion about Zed Or B. When did you frame your opinion about that thing over there? Well, when I first encountered it Or at least in the early days of my knowledge of it. When did you frame your opinion about Keith? Well, when I first met him, or at least in the early days, what if Keith changed What if he's converted? to Um I don't know, Zoroastrianism. what if he's become a vegetarian? What if he's completely changed his view? Would you still have the same opinion about him today that you had when you first met him or you first got to know So when things change, your opinion of them should change as well, right? That's not quite the same as saying M There's no point having a mind if you never change it, but there's not much point paying attention to things if the things that you're paying attention to don't in some way prompt you to have a slightly different approach to things S sounds out it is a word or a plate key Nine minutes after ten is the time Um And I hate this story for a whole bunch of reasons Not least because I can tell you for a fact that none of the people punting it as a reason why your kids shouldn't go to university will be telling their own kids not to go to university That's where class kicks in I remember interviewing Joe Johnson the the younger brother of him And he was announcing some sort of university life and he was a good education minister. But back in the days when being a conservative didn't involve being a complete crackpot He was a good education minister, widely respected in the sector. and it wasn't a bad policy necessarily to sort of introduce a technically degree level qualification that didn't have degree level academia. I think it was tied to practical experience or something like that. So it was you know a training program that was equivalent to a degree but not a degree because it involves more hands on experience than lecture hall or classroom based And I remember saying to him, would you encourage your own children to do this? And he looked at me as if I had food falling out of my mouth. It was of course hadn't actually crossed his mind that children like his or I suppose children like mine would go on That kind of thing. and that's silly as well because you know, if you're middle class, you may hate exams, you may be rubbish it examxams you may benefit enormously from a different kind of training, but the way I was raised, the way this country worked When I was of that age, when I was contemplating what I would do after leaving school Somebody from my background and my class, not just privately educated people, but anybody middle class or thereabouts would automatically presume that they were going to University It was just a given I struggle Apart from the people who went to drama school or art school, I struggled to think of anybody that I knew in my teens from my own background that didn't go to university. I genuinely struggle It's partly a mark of how cosetted my own circles are, but it's also a mark of how the relationship work between tertiary education and class Cass socioeconomic class Another reason why I hate this story today on the front page of the Daily Mail is not just the fact that the people who are being told not to go to university will not be the children of the people asking the question But it's come from one of those lobby groups, strokes, think tanks, stroke education or charities that is secretly funded and dedicated usually to doing the bidding of the donors whose identity they largely won't disclose. in this case Policy exchange founded, I think, by people like Michael Gove and Archie Norman and Nick Bowles and suundry other sort of Tories who also go back to the days when being a conservative didn't necessitate being a crack pot, although I'll leave you to decide whether that description applies to any of the people that I have just mentioned And you know until I've dug in, I doubt there are many people on the payroll at the policy exchange that didn't go to university. These people are normally recruited, I think, as undergraduates. And it is a way in which you can pay people to essentially work for the right wing of British politics without having to have them on payroll of the actual party. That's why they usually founded Dominant Cummings founded one. Back in the day, I Duncan Smith founded one, Back in the day, Keith Joseph founded one. Back in the day Michael Goe founded one. You've got this enormous army of very, very well paid, very well educated people coming up with ways to sell right wing policies to people who won't benefit from right wing policies without having to call them Conservative or even in the case of the Daily Mail this morning without even mentioning that it's an extremely right wing organization. So I don't currently because I'm a trusting soul. Doubt. that the research that they've done They have found that more than one hundred fifty thousand students a year struggled to reach the median the average salary the thirty five thousand pound threshold that represents the national average salary And it gets worse. Some of them aren't even earning over twenty four thousand pounds. This will include the neats that we talk about an awful lot on this program. And they make the point inevitably that young people are being signed up four degrees can leave them with debts of fifty thousand pounds a year to study. That's very much the top end But it remains a Um A reality. it remains a very real thing. And so The problem I've got This morning And to be honest, if you get into media and journalism as a graduate, you're going to be way below that national average for a good few years, if not forever. mean that is just one of the giveivens. I think these national averages are probably hideously skewed by people who earned squillions, you know thoseose of us who were lucky enough to earn very good wages. There aren't that many of us, arere there? because we can't be one anyway I digress. I got an E in my AO level statistics, as you could probably guess when you listen to me discuss matters mathematical So Do I need? and I'm going to make it all about me today, deliberately, not accidentally, which is what usually happens. Do I need to I don't want to ask you this question. shouldhould we not be enncouraging our young people to go to university. And the big change, I think And this is where I really need your help from younger people, as it were. U I I love that Oscar Wild quote about a cynic being someone who knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing. and I don't think that's ever applied to anything in my experience more than it applies to education So a well particularly a university education A university education, in my mind, in my idealistic mind. is about so much more than a university education. It's about so much more than getting a degree. It is, depending on your background, a huge improvement to your existence to meet people from very different backgrounds from your own There is, if you're lucky enough to be able to apply yourself to your studies, and most young people are, something else I've learned as I've got older is that people like me who either won't or can't apply themselves to their studies are not the the measuring stick for conversations like this one Beauty and the benefits of university, to me were about fifty two, forty eight phrase I'd say it was fifty two percent academic qualifications and expectations of enhanced employment prospects. and forty eight percent intangles forty eight percent Being able to let your mind go to places that it wouldn't be able to go anywhere else on a regular basis as an adult, that you wouldd be able to dig into subjects, whether they were technical or artistic in ways that you would simply not be able to spend three years doing. anywhere else in your life. There is a beautiful story in the news today about a boy in Ireland coming out of his exams to tell his mum poem she wrote about him. neearly ten years ago had turned up on his English paper. or isiter literature paper Imagine that. I mean that see that feeling there if you have it You know what I'm talking about? If you don't have it, stick with me. You'll have it one day. I promise if you stay with this program. The idea of that boy coming out of his exam and saying to his mum, The poem you wrote about me when I was seven, it's on the flipping paper mum. There's something that happens inside you when you hear something like that that is a little bit like what can happen at university if you're lucky. quuite what used to happen at university And it can't happen anywhere else. L, I know it can, but generally speaking, it can't happen anywhere else. In the same way that you can end up playing in the Premier League because you' got discovered playing on Sundays on Hackney Marshes. Of course that exists But it's not the normal path to playing in the Premier League. The normal path to the sort of things I'm talking about was a university education And as I talk to you this morning, I worry that I sound of fifty four for the avoidance of doubt I worry that I sound as if I'm speaking to a different era. I'm speaking of a different era. It doesn't mean the things that I'm saying aren't true But it means that if I'm coming out with fifty, a hundred, one hundred twenty thousand pounds worth of debt, then that is a price not worth paying for the thing that I'm describing. And I wonder whether the thing that I'm describing even exists in a world where education has been so completely commoditized I remember being stunned to discover students were complaining about lecturers not turning up And during COVID students wanted refunds. Whereas when I was a kid, if a teacher didn't turn up for a class or a lecturer didn't turn out for a lecture, it was straight to the union bar and travels all r If you are entering into a commercial contract with your place of education Then have all of the things that I'm talking about disappeared And that's the question I'm asking you this morning Because I went to university, but I know nothing about university I went to university, but I know nothing about university. I know nothing about university. One of my daughters is at university at the moment, but in Dublin which makes it a completely different proposition from what it would be like if she was at University in England or in the United Kingdom. So I know nothing about it. It's a much more preferable experience in other countries where the debts are not so huge and where the commitment to learning for learning's sake is still complete I don't know whether or not that's a thing Learning for learning's sake. And that is the hideous question that I'm asking you this morning Is learning for learning's sake Dead. in modern Britain. zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. And if it is thenen do we do our children a grave disservice by subscribing to the schoolchool of thought that says you have to go to university if you want to get ahead if you want to get a job, if you want to dot Is leararning for learearning and you will be an academic, you may be a teacher, you may be a parent who compares your own experiences to your children. you may be a student. you may be a recently graduated student I hate the idea of a young person coming away from a conversation like this, thinking I'm not going to go to university. But the reason why I hate it is because of all the things I think that you'll miss out on by not going But I've never had this thought before. What if they're not there anymore? What if they're not there anymore? I mean, I'm thinking of the societies, I'm thinking of the extracurricular activities, I'm thinking of the groups, I'm thinking of the theaters and the debates, I'm thinking of the newspapers and the radio stations. I'm thinking of all the things that you can do at university that you may never do at any other point in your life. But is that worth Tens if not hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of debt. So what is your answer to the question askked by a nineteen year old standing over there, an eighteen year old sitting over there waiting for their A level results. Should I go? Should I try to go to university? Yes or no Oh three and you can say it depends. I take I'll take your quibbles. Yes, yes if you are dot. no if you are not But there's an eighteen year old sitting next to me in the studient. That's making me eightighteen year old me My philosophy degree has not served me any purpose at all in my professional career. Maybe a little bit of mental training, but I was one of those kids that turned up for exams high on proro plus and managed to regurgitate things. I spent forty eight hours cramming into my mind and barely paying attention for the three or four years of my course Four years because I failed a year That's how much attention I was paying. So eighteen year old me sitting here. In twenty twenty six, not in nineteen nineteen, I was thing, Is it worth me going to university? Is it worth it anymore Not because of What was true, but because of what is true now? Oh man, I told you I was going to hate this question, but I'm looking forward to your answers. And you can provide them by, you know the rest. dialing zero three four five, six zero sixzero, nine seven three twentyenty four minutes after ten is the time. and there's another bit, there's another bit I've told you this before, and it makes me sort of hypocritical, but paying school fees to send my children to private schools for the latter part of their education was for me, a refusal to let other people Most people' children have advantages that I could have given my children and didn't So Part of the reason why I hate the idea of telling young people not to go to university is that most people who are, let us say working for Tuft and street think thanks. or conservative politicians will be still sending their children to university Do you get what I mean I sort of think of little re smogs running around the place with things that their parents have bought for them that I could have bought for my children and chose not to, or things that you can't afford to buy for your children. so they don't have to borrow money to get them. and I'm telling you not to get them But R smoke's children will still have them. That's why I think class is absolutely intrinsic to this conversation Roina is in Boramwood, Rina, what would you like to say Heo, you're right. I'm very well, thank you. How are you? I'm good So I graduated Uni like two years ago, twenty twenty four and I went to like a major London Art schoolchool. I'm not going to name names. Okay. if you won'. U I don't know I'm scared to you for some reason. sorry. But yeah, it was like one of like the major ones in London. Okay And it just like we all had the sense that it was just like majorly oversubscribed And because it was a practical course like I did painting, we didn't actually have physically enough space for everybody to make their own work. So in the second year, they ended up dividing the amount of space students and we ended up with like one meter of wall space And this is partly because they need the bodies to get the money that they need to keep the whole place open. So so it's a bit of a catch twenty two, isn't it? Yeah. and were you signing up there expecting to make a career. M most people on your course would have been expecting to make a career in art Oh no. I mean, I think Yes, to an extent. I mean, with art school, I think there's obviously kind of a stereotype that obviously not everybody that comes through the doors is going to become like a, you know world these days Th these days it's the same with journalism school, to be honest with you. all these degrees that are vocational film or you know It used to just be art school and drama school when I was your age and you'd think, Oh gosh, well, I'm going to get a proper degree because then I'll get a proper job, but it doesn't apply on the proper jobs anymore than it does. to you and then you realize pretty quickly that there's no earthly way you're all going to spend the rest of your lives earning decent living as painters Well, yeah. and I also just think there wasn't really an opportunity to like actually fulfill like the potential of your own work because there just wasn't enough space and like I guess teaching time and facilities, but even just like just the space. I mean it's I hear that. I mean, you know, you could have done miniatures Right, right. I mean, that's what they would say. they'd be like, Well, you know, you just you have to ad that, that's what being asked. So what you're telling me, and I hadn't thought of this dimension is that because of the commoditization and because it has been completely commercialized, even the beauty of learning for learning's sake has been compromised. So your experience over three years You look back on it, feeling squeezed. You don't look back on it, feeling God, I had such an extraordinary freedom that I never would have had anywhere else in my life. And those three years will always be precious to me, even if I start work tomorrow as a bookmaker or an accountant. I' work and you don't feel that you've even got that anymore. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. the people that I met were great but like it's so much to do with luck And like because you have to also buy your own materials. like that's really expensive oil paint canvas. that's always been true, I think. to a point. So you would think that the compensation would be like, oh, you actually have the space and the facilities to be able to utilize that? Yeah, I hear you. So eighteen year old me, let's pretend for a moment that I am very gifted at art When I say to you, do you think I should go where you went, Roina And where I went at least, I would I would definitely recommend going to like a smaller art uni, maybe like in I think I've heard good things about like Fallmouth and things that are like not massive business At London like franchises almost. Yeah. I think I know where you went. It's not very hard to work out, is it? I'm not going to say. And can I ask how much debt you've got at the moment I don't even know. like that's the spirit justust keep sticking him in the drawer. they if they're red under the bed. twenty nine minutes after turn is the time, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And you know there is there are problems surrounding those debts as well because for a long time they were financially quite efficient. Martin Lewis was a great champion of explaining why you shouldn't be intntimidated by those debts, but that's not true anymore Um More on this, after the very latest headlines with Dominic Addis ten thirty two is the time you're listening to, James O'Brien on LBC. J a little more on this story, which I don't know qu I interviewed Cress of the Cow yesterday. You might not recognize a name. you probably do, but you'll be familiar with how to train your dragon. probablyably her most famous series of books, far from the only one. Absolutely lovely womoman. I mean It's a remarkable interview. And it's for full disclosure. And she has dedicated so much of her life, both before and after becoming a worldwide phenomenon to encouraging children to read She told me a lovely story about being in a classroom and asking children what five year olds, what superpower they would like to have And a five year old girl puts her hand straight in the air. and Christopher says, Okaykay, ye what superpower would you like to have? And this five year old girl says, My superpower would be to take everybody else's superpowers and make them better. and then give them back And I just thought, what an absolutely lovely thing that is. an absolutely beautiful thing that is. And I had a similar feeling when I got to work this morning and read about Emily Cullen picking up her son after his English exam, or his junior cycle English exam, which is the Irish equivalent of GCSEs. Emily is a poet from Gorway And a boy comes out of his English exam and says What she says, he had a big broad smile on his face and I thought, o, that's good. He must have remembered some of his Shakespeare quotes. I don't know if anyone else is in the flashcard period of their lives at the moment, but you will, if you are, understand or you ever have been, you'll understand exactly what she means. And then her son Lee says the her You won't believe it, Mum pooem you wrote about me came off in the paper And and that is exactly what happened. She's the masical poet in residence at the University of Limerick. and back in the day He's fifteen years old now, so it's equivalent to GCSC's. But when he was seven, she wrote a poem about him called Envoy in Chalk and it appeared in his junior cycle English exn Does that make him a Nppo baby? I don't know, but it's one of the loveliest things I've heard in ages and it somehow speaks to the spark in the same way that Cresced's story does about the five year old girl, the spark of education that I worry has gone out One text put it very, very bold, here it is from Jordan. Learning for learning's sake is dead unless you have a lot of money. And I have to ask you whether that's true or not. however much I don't want it to be true doesn't matter. I have to ask you given that your experiences will be much more current and recent and relevant than mine And also because I can afford to look after my girls in this kind of space, so I can give them an opportunity to enjoy learning for learning's sake. But is Jordan right dead unless you have a lot of money Dan' in Southfields, Dan. what would you like to say morning, James. Hello. I almost don't want to have this conversation with you because Iose both of us. I mean, there's no getting away from it. I had a very similar pathway to you, you know went to good school, went to uning did a degree, did everything I was sort of, you know that was It was a conveyor bel, really, wasn't it? Well we may not have realised it at the time. Absolutely. And my daughter's about to go to Unich starts in September and I've not had this conversation with her. and that's part of the reason why this is a difficult conversation to have you. Luckily. I think she probably used an inter music or something. but you failed on one parenting front, then, At least we can agree about that. She loves Mter hour. She loves youter hour. The but exact you know, my concern is either as a family, we support her as much as we can. It's you know, we're looking at sixty seventy K over three years. you know, by the time you've got school fees of around school fees, the uni fees of around ten K, which if you've sent a kid to private school actually isn't you know a bit you're kind of thinking, well, that's that's almost a bonus. Yeah I hadn't thought of it like that, but you're right, of course. Yeah. I mean average school kids in the UK, you know, your school was was one of the best, you know, but yeah, but that was forty odd years ago and the numbers go you know, a journalist on the Daily Telegraph, just a normal journalist on the Daily Telegraph could just afford it. That wouldn't be true now. Well, I was, you know, I was one of these parents that because I went to public school got the benefit of. It was always a struggle to pay the ay to pay the money. I'm so glad that the vat came in after wed finished because that might have just pushed us over the edge. We would have fair enough. We would have found it some way, but anyway, it was tough. I wasn't, you know, that's another conversation. But The reality is of her going going to university, someone's going to pick up sixty seventy k worth of debt either either either us or. or we need to find that money or she's going to be encbed with that debt And for what, you know, as you say, she's well, she's going to do a a design degree, same as I did. I did it a year after youes, and if few years between us followed that pathway, G a job in design. it's paid my life, It's paid my my, you know, I was one of the few probably that actually did a degree and ended up you know because even then even then there were no guarantees far from it. But there's fewer guarantees now. Virtually no one on my course went into the industry. I was one of the very few. I got first, which helped And I really was passionate about it. There were people on my course who were like almost there just to do a degree. Yes. I think the world is changed, you know, and I think AI is changedly because I'm still in the industry as well, I have a I can see what's coming. you know, I know how This is really tough. So you're thinking you're not going to get a return on that investment in professional or career based terms What about the really scary elephant in the room? What about the learning for learning's sake or the joy of being at university for three years side of things I think the network thing actually weirdly more is more obvious at public or private school than it is at university because of the democratization of which is a wonderful thing on paper, but the reality of it is, as you say, it's become kind of commoditized. There are a lot of courses now that are literally exist because they can create a market for them. There's a, you know, they can sell that product as it were, which is a horrible way to talk about education. No, but it is just true. It is just true. It is. And you know, like like the caller you had before, you know, which breaks my heart, you know, And that you think for sixty seventy K, I mean, that's minimum. you know, I mean I want to be going in London. so it's got nine I think nine seventy five almost ten K year fees. but then you've got accommodation on top of that plus materials, whatever else. You're not going to get out of it for less thanty sixty K over three years. I If I was her, my daughter I would say, you know what? donon't even do it. Go into if you can get an apprenticeship, get some work experience, make coffees for a year if you have to. You will after three years No Bear in mind, I also have interviewed many graduates over the years as well and school see what the product looks like coming out of universities. I was very, very lucky at Uni. I had a couple of lecturers who were brilliant who were from industry you know, really knew their stuffs I think that's changed a lot as well in education. you're the perfect. study here, aren't you? Because you feel all the things I've described and yet the pull. of that conveyor belll is still strong for people of not just our background and class for want of a better word, but for anybody raised in a country where the university education had a cache that it actually probably doesn't have any which it doesn't have because part of the flip side of the democratization of education is that as every as every as more and more people get degrees, more and more people go to university it becomes less of unless you go to a really top university, then going to any other university doesn't give you, you know or unless and this is the heartbreak for me today because I don't think anyone's going to talk me out of it. You'll certainly not. Or you triple down on the learning for learning's sake. So you're saying, of course children for up, Let me read you a beautiful message that I got, which really is a a corollary to the that the one that the caller that we took, the one that you're talking about, I'm not going to be able to find it now, am I? But it was Here go, I went to gooldsmiths in two thousand. this is from Alex and she says, We had massive space. I came out with little debt I didn't expect to be an artist, but I wanted three years to experiment. I've worked in accounts ever since, but I feel so lucky to have been able to experience university at that time when we were free to experiment. So you could triple down on that. You could say, off course, it's worth going. Listen to Alex. That three years of her life were seminal. they were formative, they were crucial. But you can't say that to your daughter because of the money that's involved That exactly right. It was just a different. I mean, it's also it's painful because it shows our ages, right? Yeah You know, you think the world doesn't change. It really has changed thirty years ago. Yeah. And so much has changed at that time. And as I say, just even learning for learning's sake, the reality is and you know this as well as I do That actually getting experience in the workplace, every hour you spend in the workplace is worth ten in an academic institution in most cases, especially a vocational job. Even if you're making the coffees in a design studio or the coffees in whate wherever it may be Osmosis, isn't it? You're learning things all the time. and that was true when we were kids, but it wasn't either or then, and it feels a good man and a good dad, but would I mean, you're on the horns of a dilemma there and you have to do what she wants to do, you can't really, work so hard at A levels and got onto a decent course and you can't then rein on her parade. but five years from now, ten years from now With a little bit more distance generationally and a little bit more experience more and more dads will probably go the other way and rightly so. But if I was in exactly your position, I'd be doing exactly what you're doing A man, take care. ten forty two is the time. Corpsey takes Jordan's point even further. He says learearning for learening's sake was killed by Tony Blair. it's that relationship between study and cost, it doesn't apply in other countries. In fact, another one of the reasons why I don't like having this conversation inspired by today's policy exchange research on the front page of the Daily Mail is that they are very much part of the political movement that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing and it's never their children. They were Th these educations, it's always somebody else's Jo's in Hslow, Joe, what made you pick up the phone Hi James Hen I'm I finished my second year at university and I must say It is So valuable. I've really enjoyed it and I find it so interesting. And it does slightly break my heart but when I hear people questioning its value For me, when it is so valuable and I've really enjoyed it. I think there is a place for it and I think good good. I mean, there obviously is. It's just I guess the The graph has changed a bit. How much of it depends on where you go and what you're doing I think on what you're doing is a massive U kind of factor. And I think what you get out of university is what you put in, if you're doing a subject that you're incredibly, incredibly passionate for and you're willing to work hard for, then absolute university can be worth it I was very set on what I wanted to do from a fairly young age I have a brother who's about to go to university who's very set on what he wants to do I'd absolutely say university was the right thing for me and university was the right thing for him for others if you're not I think it's not worth it in the same way, but if you absolutely do have a passion for something. That's a huge difference though, Joh. I think as a mass because when I was your age, absolutely no certainty whatsoever. I mean not destination and even course Or you can get into Bristol if you do this. I've never heard of that before. Yeah, but you can get into Bristol if you do it. Allright, yeah, I'll that then dad And you know that is a generational shift that I think you can't see when you're in the middle of it. I certainly couldn't until quite recently. So are you describing the joy of studying something that you love and are fascinated by? The pure and simple joy without any necessary to a future employment, you're just absolutely loving your studies. Well Well the thing is is that what want to do is related to my course. So kind of And yes, with that in mind, but it's the fact that I'm learning about it And yes, I know I can apply it in the future, but I find it S things are so incredibly interesting that I don't mind comp' reading and and and it notot only that, but I think just the experience of university as well So I would I would hazard to guess that you are at a I would people my age And I'll make you snigger now what people my age would call a cool university with a really banging social life and lots and lots of extracurricular activities in society.. Yes, yes. without that was also played into my enjoyment of it. And I would say When I talk to my parents about university, and the big thing that my parents say is not only is it the academic stuff, but you learn to kind of live by yourself for the first time in an environment that is No for hostile. You're kind of all in the same boat and For me, I'm living with my friends all year round and I think that as an experience is so good to have alongside getting so much value out of the academic side. And of course we speak about a million members of your generation being stuck in a sort of educational and professional limbo, the things you describe take on an even greater resonance and an even greater value. What about the debt? How big a shadow does that cast over you I mean, it casts a shadow over me. My parents are really quite for us about the changes and everything I mean, I haven't dared to look at it at the moment. It's two out of two then on. in terms of the way the way I think about it is that You kind of talk about knowing the value of nothing. but the value I feel, although it's really hard to put a numerical monetary value on it, in my head I feel that if you rounded up all those experiences and everything like that and then the linkgs to future career and try to quantify that, that would be worth more than the debt Yeah This is a call that I needed and oddly you and Dan sit in perfect harmony with each other because I'm pretty sure that if he felt daughter feel the passion that you feel and did have the relationship between expectation and application at university, then he wouldn't be having the doubts and the reservation that he's having. So there will always be young people for whom university is obviously the best course, but as you say The variables have changed enormously. I mean, for example, you would look at eighteen year old me And my relationship with application and effort and passion and you'd say, no, don't bother. unless you're going to get stuck in, m then there is not much point going. and that was true in nineteen ninety one to be honest with you, but it didn't have the debt, so it didn't matter And then all the other stuff that I did, I could have done elsewhere because of other elements of my background. So joining the drrama Society, all those things. I was in youth theaters and stuff like that. But for loads of people, that's what Joe's talking about. You have opportunities and Alex talking about being at Goldsmith, but in two twenty six years ago different world. Therefore different answers to the same questions. ten forty eight is the time It's ten fifty one. you're listening to James O'Ben on LBC. This is very powerful from from Emma who is a regular favourite contribute to the programe. It's reminiscent to me They write of feudalistic attitudes. Going to university for a lot of people, regardless of subject is the first chance they get to move off the farm. broaden their horizons past the five barred portal of upper class gatekeeping and see the world Gh that'sautif It shows people who have only ever grown up in one place with one group and one mindset that there are other possibilities tellelling someone they have to stay in their lane and only aspire to the hay fork while constantly off on their own grand tours And it's a point Jonathan makes in a slightly different way when he points out, these people are only attacking university because it's lefty Again, you will see the same happening across the pond And then schools will be lefty. Education is lefty. So we start talking about sending people out to work at thirteen years old, like in the good old days to stiffen out the youth who have been inept in the world of work since time eternal That's that's the thing. That's the absolute nub of what I'm trying to talk about. the value versus the cost But have things become so completely cost oriented that we've lost the value notot for the last lad, not for the in Houseslay, What was his name? loveoly blo? Well,'ve become my memororyies' an absolute mess at the moment. But for the earlier callers, it was and for the parents wondering about whether or not it's worth it. It does seem that the cost has clouded out the value because cost and value are not the same things unless you're a Tory Kate's in Bristol, Kate, what would you like to say? Hello, James. It's lovely to speak to you today.ise. Thank you. Thank you. F first time call out and all that, but I felt quite compelled to phone in. I was the first person in my family to go to university back in ' ninety four And I think I probably did it because I didn't know what I wanted to do. and I loved education And I was incredibly lucky that my dad was able to fund me it I'm trying to remember what the student loan system was back then, but I know that I came out with no debt. Yes. Well your dad probably did a little bit more than you realised, but you wouldn't have come out with anything like the debt that you wouldn't do now No, absolutely. And I I had quite a tough time at Uni, but I'm really glad I got my degree, and I think it's gone on to help me in so many ways other than just academically. I've got twenty five year old twin boys now. One of them went to Uni in Bristol and he's come out with colossal debt. But he was incredibly He knew absolutely what he wanted to do from about the age of dot and so he's He's gone on. he knew what he wanted to do and he's got he's dream job now So that the debt is also But it's really hard because I think until he earns enough to start paying it back, he sometimes pays it back a little bit depending on what his salary is. But his twin brother has No prospects wasn't particularly academic and so you've got a sociological experiment in your own family. Be becausecause they're twins. I mean, it's the perfect control, isn't it Yeah. and it's really interesting because the one that didn't go to Uni now kind of looks at his brother and he' like should have done better at school And they actually live together now and the Uni one, Ill call the Uni one, he actually pays more rent so that his brother can live with him And so it It's a sociological experiment and a microcosm of society. Yeah, because there's no way that unless the other one goes back to education, which just isn't his bag. He's got for him to kind of move forward now and get a good wage is really difficult. Whereas his brother's done the hard work and has got huge debt under his C I'm not sure. I understand what you're saying, but you're just making me recognise I knew there'd be flaws in this research because of where it comes from and who stuck it on their front page this morning. So the median full time workers' salary, that includes people at retirement age. So really, that figure is utterly meaningless because what you really want to see is how the people with degrees compare in their first job people who haven't got degrees. And what the Daily Mail and Policy Echange have done because that's what they do is that they have completely manipulated the figures to fit the political point that they're trying to make which is that people who are not from wealthy backgrounds shouldn't be going to university Yeah. And's just it's frustrating. But this is why when you do conversations like this, I normally drive and listen, but today I was compelled to pull over and talk to you because it just makes you think and it makes you question and it's U Yeah Yeah you're right. and I mean, it's interesting is it? When did can I ask you a slightly personal question Yeah. When did you realize that the boys had different intntellectual capabilities re they are identical tos? Yeah, they're identical twins. That's why I ask because I everyveryone's fascinated by identical twins. I always have been. But when did you realize that one was I think even right back at school, like little school, would you call it infant school, like one of them would question things. he'd want to know more why something was. And I always say if you put them together, you get a whole one because they are literally down in midle Yeah. yeah, but the one that doesn't go to uni has got the most amazing qualities.. they're but they're no They're no good in well not they are good in the workplace. but they they don't account for monetary And it may change as the years pass. He may stumble into something that fits him like a glove and end up rocking the world and looking after his brother because that's the most beautiful thing you've told us is that kind of operate at the age of twenty five as something of a unit with one picking up the slack for the other and one helping out Because he can and because he wants to. You've clearly done something very right there, Kate. Thank you for your call. A sparkling debut, ten fifty seven is the time. Which is the politician who says I love the poorly educated. Any guesses on that? which politicians said recently I love the poorly educated. U I'll try and find you a little clip, shall I? Sam's in Brighton, Sam, what would you like to say Hi there, James. So I work in a southern university. I finished my PhD in twenty sixteen. and honestly, the death noll for education for education's sake was the increase in fees. and then the final kind of nail in the coffin was the increase in interest rates that young people are playing That way it has to be an investment into their employable future rather than a formative experience. So learning for learning's sake is toast really It has, since the introduction of the financial constraint, then absolutely it's gone. So it's nice as you pointed out, kind of class structure. it's nice if you're from a middle class background and you can be supported and you can have that you can have that extra support, shouldould you be trying to get placements in places, that necessary support. But as a first and family working class kid, it's not you don't have that choice And I see many kids who are brought into my university and my course is And they really shouldn't be there. They don't know what they want to do. They're just accumulating debt, they have no idea about how much debt they're accumulating. And And yet on the other side of the argument, there are still professions in particular and jobs in general that you can't get close to without a deree So you're still it's still a golden ticket in any way. degree in connections from that networking So it's more than just the degree. I mean, you know, my sci, but you still need the degree You do absolutely need the degree and you need degree for a good university and then you also need the connection to get you into that into that into that. So you know, to my son who's eighteen who's got offered from Russell Groups at the moment, I'm telling him tooose apprenticeship And is he going to take your advice he I mean, I sold him the university experience prior, but as we've kind of been working out the finances, he's thinking about it and yeah's looking at it in what's the picture with regards to this however You know, it would be a wonderful experience from Sot to University. It's just unaffordable. It's just become edging ever further out of reach for more and more people. What is the score with regards to apprenticeships? Be I don't want to just let that pass as a glib alternative. You've obviously looked into it and decided it's attractive. So it's attractive because they pay for their tuition and they give them the wage and they have the same independence. You don't necessarily have the same campus experience, but you still have your connections, you still you still developed your education. there's some very good apprenticeships out there But they are quite competitive, but it is definitely a way forward. you know, it's just And you know, it's quite because they gutted the learning for learning sake kind of courses from most universities. so it's you know, Yeah. And yeah and still some still persist, but it was Joe I think, it was Joe, wasn't it in Houndslow who was telling us about that. U Some still persist and yet the massive experience, which is what I opened this hour by talking about, the commonality of experience when I was your son's age has just changed beyond all recognition. That wasn't quite as heartbreaking as I thought it was going to be that hour, but it didn't I'm afraid to turn the oil tanker around in any way, shape or form. We did actually ask pololicy exchange, the lobby group stroke, think tank, stroke educational charity that has issued these figures without pointing out that they're comparing people who graduated in the last five years. to the median wage, which will include people who are never going to retire. will include every wage from every age group right across the country in order to make the point that they want to make, which the daily Mail obligingly sticks on its front page and plenty of broadcasters won't do the thinking that's necessary to work out The detail here is university a waste of money. We ask them how many of their senior staff didn't go to university. About an hour ago we haven't heard back yet It is one minute after eleven. one question I can answer for you. Who was the politician who said I love the poorly educated? I love the poorly educated. Oh yeah, of course it was. Five minutes after eleven. I think we're going to knit together quite a few things that are going on at the moment in the course of the next conversation. That horrible story from Belfast that you just heard referred to I left the studio for a moment, so I don't know if the bulletin mentioned the suspected origins of the suspect in that case, but they mean that another political bandwagon will take off now, which will be an extraordinary one to witness because people are going to claim potentially that hideous violence in Northern Ireland is a consequence of immigration. which I mean, if the subject matter wasn't so serious, that would be an irony beyond ironies. But of course the truth or facts or history or knowledge or experience won't affect any of the people who used Henry Novak's murder against the express wishes of his family to score bogus and fallacious political points and no doubt they'll be doing the same. So stand by for reading about how Northern Ireland a particularly hideous bloodbath in the annals of British and Irish history is witnessing acts of hideous violence as a consequence of immigration. I point that out because oh, it's just true And we move from that to Kamy Badeno's insistence that she's going to get rid of equality legislation or change equality legislation. again, as you heard in your bulletin. And then we turn to a story about the white working classes, which I don't know. if it has happened yet But it probably will the white working classes are by far the most likely to skip school, to not go to school The figures are extraordinary. So I don't know if there's any way you can turn that into anti white bias When I started in this job I think the figures were the other way around. O certainly the white working class was always overrepresented in truancy That was achievement, wasn't it? Not truancy. It was young black children, particularly young black boys were doing worst at school and everybody blamed it on the parents but they no longer are as a direct consequence of the sort of policies that Kammy Badenoock is keen to get rid of becausecause they address things like institutional racis of in schools, lo and behold, young black kids now do a lot better than they used to do and even better than some other demographics. So it turns out it wasn't the parents at all, it was actually the institution. So I suspect we're going to hear soon how schools are and they won't be able to claim their bias against white kids because of course, middle class white kids are still doing almost as well as well, better than almost anybody else but the bias somehow against working class white kids So the farargists will be somehow checking your child's credentials at the door of the school, establishing what class they belong to and then treating them well or badly. I wish I was making this up I wish I wish I was making this up, but I'm not And my thanks, of course to Nick Abbott for ensuring that clip of Donald Trump saying that he loves the poorly educated is very near the top of the in queue at LBC Towers, Nick making genius radio in ways that I mean, he's been doing it for longer than I have and he still reaches heights that the rest of us can only dream of as a broadcaster. If you haven't checked out his show, then do My driver, my Uber driver yesterday spent a significant part of our journey singing Nick Abot's praises, which is exactly what you want as a radio presenter to hop into a car and hear somebody waxing lyrical about the brilliance of one of your colleagues Nine minute as it's N Abot Nine minutes after eleven is the time. And so there's a bit of class, there's a bit of race, there's a bit of ethnicity, there's a bit of political point scoring, there's a bit of fallacious. posturing, there's a lot going on here. And I want to know about the children involved, more than anything else. seven point six million pupils analyzed by University College London White working class children are more than twice as likely as the average pupil to be severely absent from school So Here's an example of some inverted snobbery If you were talking to me about middle class children being absent from school, I would ask you a question about the difference between can't and won't. You may have heard me do that. If I was talking to you about middle class children being absent from school children like my own Then I would be talking to you about what's the difference between won't go to school and can't go to school And then we start talking about things like neurodiversity and we start talking about things like anxiety and depression ADHD and various other inccreasingly successfully diagnoseed conditions that in families where parents have sought out diagnoses, explanations are provided for why their children struggle with something called school refusal, which is an unhelpful term and probably one that needs changing, but one that is very different from truance You move the spotlight to the working classes And the word truant doesn't even get put in in the Times newspaper today. One in twenty working class children in England are missing at least half of their schooling. I don't know if it's the subeditor that stuck the word trruitt in the headline. and I don't know because I haven't read the whole thing whether or not it even appears in the University College London analysis, but a little bit of me doubts it. I suspect they use phrases like persistently absent or missing a percentage of lessons and then they will make comparisons and they find that White working class pupils miss thirteen percent of lessons compared with seven percent nationally And about half of those, forty five percent, are unauthorized. So if you are white working class twice as likely to miss school than anybody else. Why We've had extraordinary phones in the past. We've had one. we may have had two, but we've definitely had one. aboutb what it's like to be the child of parents who don't care about education There's a dimension to that here, and I may move on to that question in the course of the next hour But what I really want you to do is tell me what it was like to be that child So it's a bit of an ask for this because I'm working on the principle that it is possible, well I need three things to be true for you to ring me I need you to be A member of the white wororking class I think I need four things. I need you to have been a frequent truant, so a won't go to school or didn't go to school, not a can't go to school And I need you to have Turned your life around to a sufficient degree that You can tell me why that was. And then of course, the fourth thing I need is for you to be listening to this program at this precise moment in history. So there are four things that I need in place here, but I'm nothing, if not ambitious. Thing number one. What is your explanation for this Sorry, the four things that I need you to do are you need to have been you need to be a white working class person or you need to have been a white working class child You need to have been somebody who was often absent from school without authorization You need to have reached a point where you can offer up an explanation for that. So I think I hope this doesn't sound snobbish. I think that involves part having turned your life around in some way, having made something of yourself despite the fact that your beginnings were so difficult. And then of course the fourth thing that I need is for you two Um be listening to this programe at the moment. There's not a lot I can do about the fourth thing. There's not a lot I can do about any of those things. All I can do is encourage you if you have All four of those things on your CV is encourage you to ring in because what I want you to tell me Um, is why you think it is. So I know what white means, okay. We all know what white means. We can tie ourselves in knots trying to work out exactly what working class means for the benefit of research like this Um I think we're probably looking at a socioeconomic group, a sort of financial distinction, but there's probably some elements of parents education. It's going to be the poorest kids. But there'll be elements of parents education and things like that So that there and of course, working class may be something of an oxymoron because the parents may be more likely to be out of work, but they still qualify as working class for the purposes of parameters like this And I want you just to tell me why you think that is because I mean, it's a much maligned phrase white working class. I'll tell you something for nothing. If we ever find ourselves at war in anything like a conventional sense then you will thank your lucky stars for the existence of the white working class At times like this, they're either used as weapons in race provocations. You have middle class privately educated far right politicians pretending to speak for the white working class by telling them that they're victims of prejudice when of course they're not. As long as you can persuade them that they are, then they won't start wondering why privately educated far right politicians are taking millions of pounds from foreign based business people and refusing to explain either why or or why they kept it secret So you've got to keep people angry. You' got to keep them oppressed, you've got to keep them believing that they're victimized, but they are real words white working class and Truancy is obviously for the reasons that we covered quite effectively in the last hour going to be a great, great obstacle to living your best life The less education you have, the fewer opportunities you have So why would being white working class? and I want to make this well, I don't necessarily want to exclude you from the program. on generational terms, but I am interested in the specifics of the United Kingdom in twenty twenty six Why day. A white working class children twice as likely to skip school? That's won't not can't. White working class children are twight Twice as likely to skip school as almost well as anybody else.zero three four five, six zero sixzero nine seven three. And if you were one of those children, then you can go to the front of the queue today. Speaking of queues, Benjamin has just kicked open the doors of Idiot's Corner. Who's taking bets on James going through the whole show without mentioning Belfast I want to put some money on it. Allright, mate, how much And then you just press rewind on Global Player and find that you sent that message at eleven thirteen And I know counting's difficult for you, but that was approximately four minutes after I talked about it. So perhaps you could make a donation to a refugee charity of your choice. It is eleven eighteen, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. and I've got a few people who tick in all four boxes. Oliver puts himself in that category. I skkyed school from year seven onwards. I didn't go in a tour for any of year eleven. My mother never cared about education. I'm white working class and I'm listening, says Oliver who is now working as a self employed Tyler turned his life around about the age of thirty. So I need you, Oliver and people in your position to tell me why you think I mean, some of the answers may be obvious. But why you think the The prevalence of skipping school is so much higher among white working class children. And listen, I'm fascinated by inverse prejudices. When you think you're on the side of the angels, but actually you're indulging in a prejudice yourself. So If I say white working class kids skipping schools, Do you immediately feel sorry for? Because if I say middle class kids who can't go to school, then will be encouraging you to immediately feel sorry for them. And that's why I am focusing upon the fact that these are unauthorized absences But it is written and the research is conducted very much in a way That is casting these children as takearaways as ruffians as sorry, that's not true. The research is not written like that. The newspaper coverage is. And it speaks to a sort of ancient prejudice of the feral youth, the Great unwashed, whereas in fact If a child's parents are sufficiently disengaged to not care whether the child goes to school or not child needs looking after and sympathizing with But it's hard to do, right It's hard to do Billy's in seven oaks, Billy, what made you pick up the phone But we're listening to your conversation passed about the four boxes are very much tick them Good man Basically. So when I was fourteen years old My life changed and I ended up moving out of my momum's house. I didn't really get on with a stepfather. I moving in with an absent dad who remained absent once I moved in with him. So from the year nine onward till the end of the year eleven, I was skipping school frequently. In that time I also become a persistent young offender getting in trouble with the police multiple times and having to go to juvenile courts, etcera. Right. Did anyone didid anyone go with you to court sort of extended family friends. My was my momum was supportive. It like I said, it was incidents with my stepfather that pushed me out of that environment. So my m did remain supportive, but ultimately I was left to my own devices So by the time I come into young adultthood between the ages of eighteen and twenty five And you know I was quite a distraught and hanging about with the wrong people getting in trouble, not doing the right thing. And then I made a decision. I become self employed within an industry. I work from the bottom up with starting off on eight pounds seventy five an hour minimum wage at the time. worked my way up, was self employed for ten years within that industry And then all of a sudden, I had a lucky break and I got offered a salary which is within the top twenty percent of people's PAA salaries having never had a job before. And you know, Within school, the only qualification I have is a C grade within Mash GCSE. I've done zero further education, I've done zero university. With that being said, I have zero debt and zero obligation to pay anything back. That's true.. And now in my mid thirties I've kind of leapfrogged a lot of people go to university for and become I got myself into a PAY salary job, which makes me feel worthwhile and makes me justified, you know, getting up in the morning and going to work hard. Yeah. And's the steeper the mountain, the more the more fulfillment there is in reaching the peak. Let me just rewind a bit if I can. . I don't want to put words in your mouth, but from the way that you told that story The reason why you didn't go to school or a large part of the reason why you skipped so much school was because no adult was particularly bothered whether you went or not. Yeah, and at the time, the schools didn't have the systems in places. to report trumancy, there was never any threat of any fines or any court action or anything like that. It was before that time And something will stick with me forever. Now my head a year at the time I won't say his name of course, but I head of year at the time, when I turned up to do my master. Please don't. He was shocked to have seen me. right. He was my head of year and he didn't even know if I still attended that school or not. Good Lord You know, who are you cross with anyone when you look back No, no, no, because I made the decisions for my life. I don't have many regrets. I do of course I have some regrets. If I could go back and go back to education, of course I'd stick with education And But you need somebody. So there needs to be a hand on your tiller at that age, doesn't there? There needs to be somebody steering you and there wasn't There certainly does. and like adults don't understand the pressures that children feel. For example, I used to have to travel quite a way to school because I moved location. Yeah. When you moved home ool. And to be fair, James, I lived in I went through five c within the space of two years where I live So I was with Mum then went with grandparent, then I went with dad in temporary accommodation, then more temporary accommodation until we actually got our permanent place. and that was over the space of two years. but within that two years It's a similar period as to when I went off the rails and was left Of course is. And you see someone looking in from the outside is just going to see a kid going off the rails. They're not going to see the fact that you didn't know You know where you were going to put your head at night, you didn't know where a home was, you didn't have that sense of security, you didn't have to care, the concern, the interest, the the simple solidity of an address, you know, the same address all of those things. But if I'm looking at it from the outside, I'm just seeing someone who off the rail his m his travel will give you stick if that makes sense. And another thing that will always stick with me, James, one more thing that I must say Now I must have been about fifteen, sixteen years old and it was when I just first Well're not first, I've been getting into trouble for around one to two years consistently with the police. Do you know what the police done to help me? No? sent me a Christmas cards and we're watching you Yeah. There was no It's not exactly what you'd call rehabilitation, is it? No, no, because you know what that done at the time? No, I don't. It made me angry and it made me say to them. but I't think I don't think that came out enough for usp to dump it angry and it made me basically stick my middle finger up and say you'll catch me now and I probably committed twice as much crime due to the That's fascinating. fifteen, sixteen years old manip feeling marked feeling marked already. That's it. They've got me down. I'm on a list. I can't There's no point in me trying to turn my life around because I'm a wrong and in the eyes of the actual police Being sixteen years old, through what I've been through. And the funny thing was you know what the police should have been doing is they should have been watching the real criminals, the adults who you know were in their twenties and still committing crime. And then somebody like me, they should have been offering support and services to prevent me committing crime because if I was prevent committing crime I'd probably say as of a guess and I'm no expert here, but I'll probably cost the country around half a million pounds to a million pound in court appearances, solicitors, prison space, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. where they could have invested probably five percent of that amount in a community scheme and they probably could have prevented two or three people like myself going down that route. She should be advising the Minister of Justice, mate, not ringing up me on a Tuesday morning. because that is the power of prevention and rehabilitation U let's say in a chuffing nuthell, shall we, Billy there you go, mate.'s fascinating. and quite straightforward when you think about it because when they say white working classes, that they are essentially saying disconnected or absent parents in Billy's case. And I will make a personal point here because there were kids at schools like mine whose families were incredibly dysfunctional But they could pay thirty or forty grand a year to have their children taken off their hands for most of the year not an option for Billy's family. Sean's in Eastley Sean, what would you like to say good morning. Yeah I come from a white U working class family I didn't really get on to school in the early seventies and going into the eight eighties of the school ' eighty five and eighty six hated school was at a bad start in life, I think as in Well one of my parents was dyslexics. E one works a lot come from a really loving family and a very supportive family, especially with grandparents and also my mom and dad. But when I went to school in the early seventies, because I was sort of like D didn't know the colors of the rainbow couldn't count to ten didn't know me ABC, didn't know how to spell my own name basically, but I knew other things. so I could go to a train station, get on a train and go all around the country even at five years old to get to get public transport knew all about that and all about the new forest and wildlife and all these sorts of things. I just didn't have that grounded when work I would have given it to you Bye I just didn't get it. No. Mum being dyslexic, obviously she couldn't read or write or No good figures until the day she excuse me up until the day. So it was a case of really school wasn't for me and then did school didid school mark you out from pretty much day one? So you turned up without that arsenal of knowledge and they therefore thought that there was no point. I mean, because that would be a really unfair thing to happen to you, Sean. It was, I think so. Yeah. there was one teacher in particular when I went into the from the influence into his journey as he sort of took me under his wing and said get these books do this and the other Apart from read and write and add up, you know, basic math add up and take away, I didn't really know when I left school, I didn't really know anything else. and To be fair, university justn wasn't for me and definitely not going tocrage all university. So I went down the line of an apprenticeship that's what I wanted to do. I struggled to get into that because I had very little qualification. But I did get come out of that with distinctions I went I did go on to do an advanced craft as well within the within the apprenticeship industry and then I join the railway industry as a brick layer. And then I'll just work my way up into supervisory roles and then into management roles and now senior project manager. And you enjoy your work enormously, I think I think I've been there thirty five, thirty six years now and yeah, I still like it. still You know, there's not a day that I don't get out and think I don't want to go in the day. That's a gift. I'm the same actually. We're both very lucky in different ways. Did you skip a lot of school when you were a Yeah, Yeah all the time. Yeahah. yeah I would go get my school uniform on and go and then I'd end up down fishing or go if something completely And did Mum know that was happening Did my d know? They did eventually because there was letters going home and then there was Yeah there was all sorts of people got involved from the school and that to come around and you know speak to parents, they had to go into the school and that It's like you you know, do you remember those things we used to play with when we were kids when you'd have a star shape and a circle and a square shape and you'd had to slot them through the holes into the It's like they were trying to it's like the education system. It's like you were a star shape and they were trying to shove you through a circle Exactly. Yeah And the system I mean and your mum and dad were not negligent, but they just didn't have the tools or the vocabulary to help you and the school apart from that one teacher just just sort of let you slide away you always put in the in the B groups if you like. there was another couple of words I'd use, but I might't use them on better not. Billy nearly went there but just I think we got away with it, rightate. But we were in could do better gps. Yeah of course. the time and you were branded but next year when you went up a year, you were automatically putting in groups you didn't You didn't really get the opportunity to It still works, doesn't it A little bit, it still does, but that's forty years later. Exactly. Yeahah, yeah That's why it's important to transformips in that because I knew a lot more than most people did, you know I could survive in the real world. It was just academically. I struggle. And even today to this very day If I get put under pressure, it all comes back from being at school because it like if I have to take an exam or something like that the heart rate goes up, the sweats come on and everything. and it all stems from not being I think it was being included when we were at school because we were in the in the lower one percent, I suppose of the class Yeah. And I suppose, I mean, I don't know what a teacher would say about this, but the resesources and the personnel probably tighter now than it was even when you were a kid. So the temptation for members of the system to let people slip through the system because it spares them the The job or the responsibility of looking after them is going to be hard to resist in some cases, but you tell a great story, an inspiring story. You don't mind me saying that.'ve just sticking into your enthusiasms and finding a job that met them and riseing to a supervisory role despite not having reached the educational thresholds that you may may you know may have be required these days. That's the point. That's why I said a minute ago What do you think of? Because you didn't think of Sean and Billy when I said a little boy, a child, a white working class kid who skips school a lot didn't think of Billy and Sean. You thought of someone bad that you'd read about in the papers and albeit that Billy did He committ a lot of crimes as a kid, he clearly turned it around and had the capability to be somebody different all the time. And that's why I think the words white working class are important for ones in a new story as opposed to being used as a sort of by word or shorthand for middle class people pretending to believe that everybody poorer than them is racist. H's Dominic Kellis with the headlin It is eleven thirty six. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC where a conversation it's gone in a really powerful direction, hasn't it? A conversation about why white working class children are twice as likely to skip school than almost anybody else. And the answer is not really as interesting as the stories. The answer in short is because they can largely because there aren't any adults in their lives who are ot laying down the law or reaching for, you know for the punishment book, but who are just not sufficiently Either they're either not able or not minded to make sure that children go to school class and Privilege are such mean almost every subject we talk about could come down to class and privilege And I wasn't exaggerating when I said there'd be kids at my school who if they were not wealthy from wealthy families, they'd have been trruans You know, they would have had very dysfunctional homelves. Look at some of the aristocracy. Over the course of the last few hundred years, Incredibly dysfunctional, but if you've got several million pounds in the bank, you can get away with it in ways that you simply can't wear mum and dad' skin you can pay tens of thousands of pounds to farm out to outsource childcare And they did, you know But the white working class experience is going to be completely different. And this is why having these conversations matters because if you don't have these conversations Then that phrase white working class gets copted. by upper class and middle class racists who want to pretend that it is all because of immigration or it's all because of foreigners that people aren't getting the opportunities and the breaks they deserve. Whereas in these cases simimultaneously, much simpler and much more complicated than that. a lot lot a lot of love coming in for Billy and for Sean. and I add mine to it as well. eleven thirty eight is the time. Michael's in Brentford, Brentwood Almost, Michael, what would you like to say? Good morning, James. Thank you for having me on. It's a pleasure to speak to you. I've spoken to you before about similar subjects. So I'm I guess definably white working class. I like to use the word painfully white, you know human bothate. I grew up in across Wolfam Forest initially and then when I started being a little bit of a toe rag, my mum had the good sense to move us out to Bilericki, which was the furthest from London she thought she could get E Just how going to pause you already if you don't mind. because that word toe rag, that's self defining as Bad, isn't it? I know it was a throwway line, but yeah I was years old and I started engaging with low level criminality. so I think my mother in a very very rare example of clear thought decided she didn't want her son to become a fully fledged criminal and moveved to South Essex, which didn't really help But I suppose in my sort of my ideologies tell me that you wouldn't have been like that if you'd been if you were been brought up in different circumstances or a different place, or is your mum prois?, probablyrobably not. No. I mean, I grew up on a crummy estate in Walam Sty, you know. I guess everyone is kind of pretty self deprecated. to a point most lads I grew up with are pretty self deprecating. U when I was in secondary school U I was a pretty high achiever I didn't really need to work much to kind of pass, you know, pass the test to get into the top sets But school just wasn't challenging for me. I got to you know the GCSE years, and there were three or four of my options that I took that I just weren't interested in. so I resolved to go and self educate and I'd bunk off school and I'd go to the library Well that's not quite what we're talking about, is it? To be fair? I mean self educating because you kind of felt that the school system was not meeting your intellectual capacity isn't quite the same as the white working class being scarred for life by truancy Michael W respect. I mean, so the thing the basis of conversation was and the way I took it Yes, apologies. No' I'm many teasing on you. I'm just saying it doesn't sound to me like you were scarred by truancy when it came to the school, when it came to the school's response to this, I mean The feeling I had when I was a kid was that they simply didn't care. They would obv they obviously had an obligation to report it to my parents or my parent at the time, but she was you know, a junkie. She was an addict to various things. So there was there was just nothing. there was no there was no one at either end that was able to or willing to kind of put any Any measures in place to stop the recurring theme whether you end up in a library or whether you end up in youth custody. The recurring theme is the answer to this. Don't get me wrong. I ended up in custody a couple of times as well. It was simply that you know, on days when it's piddling down with rain, I don't necessarily want to be out on a street touring everything. I'd much rather be nice and cozy in the library reading no one cared No one That's the theme ca. No you. No one cared No one cares No one cared for you enough. The thing is no one cared about you enough And the part that's really frustrating is and I've spoken to you previously about ADHD. I found out quite late in life. So I think I was aged thirty six, diagnosed ADHD. And since then, you I've just improved in productivity in lots of ways Um It's one my favorite subjects at the moment, that, you know, on the show, late late life diagnoses of ADHD because it's as if It's as if you're having your arm behind your back untied, isn't it? I think in? Yeah, for real. Yeah, I mean, I've spoke with you previously about it and used the term that it was like being gifted a missing cog to the of the brain, right? I love that. But the frustrating thing is I don't have any expectation that my parents, you know would have picked up on it because who would have? This was back in you the ninetour parents let you down in other ways. I hope you don't hear me saying that Of course yeah. I want to say it's water under the bridge in many ways, but in other ways it's not The body keeps the schoolore mate Do you ever I mean, it may not be a healthy thing to do. Do you ever wonder about the path not taken? Do you ever wonder about what your life would have been like had you been in a functional household not yeah pulated by drug addicts And I think I think you well honest Well I thinko when I've spoken about ADHD before, I've spoken about going through a kind of mourning phase for the person I could have been, for the person I'm not, but I could have been U And you know, in everyone's experience of that is obviously going to be unique it's just mine wasn't wasn't only like, oh I've gone through life being being challenged by things that you know, most other people wouldn't find challenging but also and it didn't help that both parents were really present with kind of doing that Well that And you know it's interesting that all three of you so far have talked about that absent or detached parent in quite loving ways or in very forgiving ways. So there's not abuse here. there's just inadequacy, and that's a horrible word to use, but it's the best one I can think of in the circumstances. I guess Billy's stepfather wouldn't fit into that category, but his mum would just not able to be the parent that a child needs and a child who has a parent who is not able or not willing perhaps to be the child to be the parent that a child needs, that child is going to be the one that is I mean, it's not exactly rocket science. That child is going to be the one most likely to skip school. I wonder what the percentages are There' something that Seaan said about waking up in the morning and never thinking, o I don't want to go to work today I wonder what the percentages are of children who wake up in the morning and think I really don't want to go to school today And then thinking, do you know what? I don't have to. Whereas most of us, if we were to wake up in the morning and think, I really don't want to have to go to school today and then to realize, well, you ha't got any choice son? You're going to school today I managed to play truin a couple of times at a boarding school, which is an extraordinary achievement for which I think I deserve some sort of award, pererhaps a Fif for Peace Prize Because I mean you're at school, but you're playing tru and while you're at school. hiding under a bed in your own room whatever it may have been But I don't know what the number is. I mean, did you wake up often? Did you wake up often, thinking I don't want to go to school today? When I was very young, I once made a bowl full of fake vomit In the kitchen out of bits of bread, ka, orange juice, and milk and mixed it all up in a bowl and threw it all over the bedroom floor and pretended to my mum that I'd been sick because I found the idea of going to school awful Awful. everyvery morning, you'd wake up, Oh God, I've got to go to school. That's not normal. Most people don't wake up every morning think, Oh God, I've got to go to school But if you haven't got an adult in your life is going sorry mate you do Then you won't. There's's the easy bit of this conversation. Michael, thank you. eleven forty six is the time It's eleven forty nine. I mean I don't know that we've nailed the white working class element of it. as in why white working class children are more twice as likely to skip school Because, you know, having absent or incapable parents is not unique to the white working class. Of course it isn't. It's not unique to any ethnicity or any socioeconomic class, but we certainly know what it's like to be one of them as a consequence of the extraordinary courses that we've taken so far. And I think the answer sort of comes into focus, doesn't it? the more stories you listened to? Allison is in Tenerf, Allison, what would you like to say Hi J, you right? I'm very well. Are you on holiday or are you an experat I'm the next pat. I'm the next pat Sry. Yes OK, Well obviously your topic applies to me one hundred percent, but very similar to your previous callers. But I'm taking you back to nineteen seventy five actually. betweenetween nineteen seventy five and ' seventy eight, myself and two of my brothers We never went to school. We were well, I say never was gone on od occasions, so they knew us. but in between, we'd be playaying cards at home. Mum and dad were both at work Did they know? D didid m and dad know that you weren't No, we had a wag woman used to come round now and again. That's the tr an offic A Wag woman. I haven't heard that phrase.or yeah, we called them the wag woman.. she'd come round now and again, Mam would tell us off. And we would promise to get us to goot really. And that really was it yet. notot enough to double check on everything and things like that.. Yeah, makeake sure you go to school. And in fairness again to your previous call, a similar theme. There was no interest in our education. They just wanted us to go to school. They weren't bad parents. Well they were both at work. So it's not like they were opting out of their responsibilities or anything like that. Absolutely. And they worked their whole their whole lives, you know, obviously to keep the house But at the time Bul didn't push it either I don't know whether they do now. And if they had, maybe we would have gone. None of us three had an older brother. He did go to school. We went to a different school actually he did very well his exams We never took any And I think even my mum didn't know about that. We would When I got a report, ch I changed the seas to Aays. Really? Ease to bees. Well you like living you like three little Bino characters, weren't you? Well, you know, but they didn't scrutinise it so Yeah I mean, was that because they didn't I mean, it wasn't a big deal to them education. it was just wasn't it wasn't that they didn't they were being negligent or neglectful in any way. They just didn't have it wr large in their list of things that they cared about for you So getting food on the table, looking after you, making sure you had clothes to wear. Th those things were important, but not actually getting educated That's right. Yet also at the same time, the three of us that were stiving, we also had Saturday jobs from about the age of thirteen. Yeah. So it's just a strange one. And we all did okay once we started working life we got I believe good work ethics. But you also mentioned like White working class becausecause I also do remember I had many Asian friends and none of them took time off school. theirir parents would have Well that's the crucial difference, isn't it? That is a big difference. The immigrant experience often involves making even more of the opportunities that you've got in the new country than the people who were born here That's right, absolutely. And in fact, I probably should have called you an immigrant a minute ago. A few people across with me for calling you an experat. so I'm happy to clarify. It depends doesn't it? which way you're looking through the telescope? That's right. And I'm still working. Are you? So ye yes. And do you ever think over the head. Do you ever think about the path not taken? Be I mean, I don't know if you heard the first hour and we were sort of talking about the fundamental value of education as opposed to the cost and the idea of it opening up horizons and showing you opppportunities that you wouldn't have found otherwise. Do you ever think about that? Do you ever wonder what might have been different if you'd gone to school at more Well, one of the things that comes to mind is I perhaps didn't realize I was capable applying myself and getting results until I went to work, I was sent on a couple of courses and I thought, o if it's so bad, I can do this. I'm quite good at this. So you got a sense of fulfillment and achievement that you wouldn't have got from school. but also my path was I did very well through promotion. an application rather than qualifications. But one thing that I would so so advise any I don't know what it's like now, but coming through the ranks of schooling and early work, to those people that find they can't take jobs. I hear from friends that many youngsters don't want to go into a factory, not that there's that many left or the stores and that. please, they should do it just to get the social experience of teamwork they'll get nowhere else. That's so well put. Even if you're not you know, even if it's not the job of your dreams and even if there's bits of it that you hate, just do it for a while because you'll be absorbing skills and lessons that you can't actually get anywhere else. It's one of the big takeaways from our neat conversations when we talk about young people not in education, employment or training. There was a dad a couple of weeks ago who said something that I think some expert came out with the next day in the papers just about to get in there and get some experience and it will grow Not for everybody, but it can't. it can't possibly do any harm. It's brilliantly put And of course, as we've discovered, I like that analogy about the I mean, you say historically, don't you square peg in a round hole, but I prefer conjuring up the image of those toys that we all had as kids when you're trying to fit the star through the star hole. The star won't fit through the circle hole or the square hole, and yet our education system can still feelit a bit cookie cutter at times, Alison. What a lovely call, thank you eleven fifty five is the time from Tenerif to Medway in Kent. Bronie is there, Bronie. what would you like to say? Hi, Dane,ll, Brian Yeah Im first time call it, I'm a bit nervous. It's only me. It's only me G, what's only mine? Right, so basically I had quite a turbulent upbringing I really loved primary school. Primary school was brilliant for me. I went to really good primary school. Shout out to Michel cops. Well. I then went as soon as I start out of secondary school, it was like It completely turn my world upside down. My dad also moved to Wales, so that was pretty hard But I just started not going to school. because we'd walk through the park to school with me and my sister, and I'd just meet a crowd of people we'd go in the woods and we'd stay there all day and then we'd go back home A mum didn't know She did know, She did know, but it wasn't until kind of probably my second year at secondary school and it started to become more of a problem. Right But the school they't they didn't do very much. I mean, we're talking in two thousand four So not that long ago, but that, you know, kids were just kind of left they, you know, They're more focused on the kids that wanted to kind of learn. And of course, if you're in the classroom, potentially you're disrupting it and you're causing trouble for those kids that want to learn and therefore for the teacher That's the thing with me. I never really I was never really naughty at school. I was quite I was quite a good kid but I I really struggled kind of Wh' do you think that was Wh'd you think that was So I wasm one of six and I was the youngest. I was used to a lot of older siblings. So when I then went to my school, we had one of the worst year groups I'd seen in twenty years apparently. And it was so disruptive. I mean some of the kids were, you know, they were really, really naughty. and I just couldn't settle there and I couldnt Oh this is so this is the opposite. this is the opposite of what people would presume. in a way you were skipping school for a more peaceful life. Yeah So So then I so when I finished kindind of so I in the end I got kicked out of school when I was thiring I then my mum then didn't know what to with me so she moved me to Wales to live with my dads pretty much. And then I was kind of home educated for about two years kind of doing my own thing. Nothing really, not like sitting down doing maths every day or English, notothing like that. It was kind of interest led whichich really really suited me and I loved it and I learnted so much U and then I got offered a place at one of the top sports academies in Wales. Are you very good at sport I was very good at sport as a kid. and that was always my focus when I was at secondary school I'd always go in on PE because that was that my thing. You know, and I' still a lot of sports to this day, yeah, so I went to one of the top sports academies and I was there for a year and I got into drug Again, the kids were a lot older than me. I was only fifteen at the time, but these kids were like eighteen, nineteen. and I fell into drugs and got kicked out. And I would still look back to that day and I just think, oh If only I'd, you know, done so much better there, I could have on to do better things, but actually I then move back to Kent, and I started working as a cleaner in Tesco And then I really like what the last lady said about, you know, just getting experience from kind of work that'sounded to you. because when I started working as a cleaner, there was a manager in Tesco And she kind of saw me, she kind of saw, you know that I wasn't I needed something more. So she actually gave me a job at Tesco and I worked for Tesco for ten years and you know, the people that I met and the stuff that I did, it kind of gave me a lot of experience. And And then from there I then started doing care in the community. Oh wow and that was just I should have done that from they. That was just everything. I suited you Yeah, absolutely. And I still do it to this day. So Do you have children of your own? I do. So I had children at twenty seven And it was kind of when I had them that I decided that I really wanted to go back to education. So actually at the moment, I am studying at Rochester Adult Midway Education Centre And I'm doing my GCT math. Fantastic And I suspect that if you were to suspect that your children were skipping school, you'd have something to say about it yeah, but you know, I'd ask them a kind of square bag round whole quest Yeah as well. Isn't there It's good. with a reason. usually, yeah. Well they, they of course there's always a reason. You're absolutely right. That's something everyone's learnnt this hour. but of course you know, the Victorian idea that everyone has to be exactly. always think of people getting into trouble for being left handed when I think of That square peg round hole thing or what you just said, there's always a reason. Children are not going to school. Help them go to school or help them find a way to get an education that doesn't necessarily involve doing the thing that they can't or won't do. Some echoes of the first hour albeit that that was about university education. But themMe of course is education. The Latin and I know this because my parents spent a fortune on my education The Latin educate, it means to lead out to lead out So you're sort of leading out things you didn't know you had inside you, or you're being led towards by it's a wonderful way of thinking about it. And if you don't have it, then There's all these undiscovered destinations that you're never going to visit. and all of our callers today happily have ended up visiting places that they could have been prevented from getting to by dint of there U Absence, if you like from education. What an amazing bunch of calls? That's an incredible hour. I'm just sort honoured really to just sit here and listen. It's four minutes after twelve and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC I've got a new feature for you. It's called Unhinged Event s bit like unhinged headline, but it's an event not a headline, which means that we won't have the production. Ready. So what we'll do, we'll play the unhinged headline bit and then Keith will turn the volume down on headline and I'll go Event. Should we practice that Keith at some point, do you think before we actually do it? or should we just wade straight in there and do it? And I've finally found On a similar theme I have finally found the biggest victim Brexit And it's taken a while. There were a lot of contenders. But we can now say with some confidence that we have now found the person who has suffered the most direct consequence of Brexit. And I wonder if you can guess who it is And I wonder whether I will remember to tell you before the end of the programme. But we turn our attention next to a much, much, much lighter conversation of that you can't be sure. And it's one that we almost had last week and I can't really remember why we didn't. I think we were rather overtaken by events I wasn't I didn't do favourite bus route, even though Eleanor was on holiday. I just quite I think she's robbed the joy from my life when it comes to doing a phone in on favourite bus routes before I retire favorite bus routes. Just give me a ring and tell me your favorite bus route. Well What's not to like about that, but just I tell you the see inccomprehensive uncomprehending disapproval That we didn't do it. we kind of did it, but we didn't do it. You made me combine it with something else about days out And one day we'll just do the best because then everyone rings in to say, I really liked Dlyoo. No one rings in to say, Ah, the number thirty six our Bridge to Whitley Court. That's a beautiful bus, right? So you have to do it. The phone in about the best days out was rather nice because there was a heat wave at the time and stuff if you weren't listening. and there was lots of stuff that you wouldn't necessarily know about things to do, but it was a way of robbing me. of the opportunity to actually do your favorite bus route. You can't do anything else They took one of the best calls of the year, actually from the bloke whose dad used to tell them they were going to France and he'd take them to the Isle of Sheepppy, I think, on a bus and then a little ferry and they'd get there and think that they were in France years before they found out that they weren't in France at all. But I digress. We didn't do favourite bus routes. And nor did we do a conversation inspired by the actress Rosamond Pike, who from the stage called out an audience member for using their phone I found it remarkable when I read the story that they were actually texting U during an emotional moment in the performance, not not a Um A curtain call. It wasn't d It was during the curtain call that she called out the member of the audience and to her credit, she said, I'm not going to identify you directly because you know who you are and maybe you were a doctor who was being asked for really important advice about a crucial operation. But it was a really emotional part of the play Now I mean, there are things that spring to mind. I'm this'll sound weird to you. I haven't told you this for ages. I remember onece seeing a bloke in the middle of road rage Oddly, I was in the car with Mrs. O'Brien at the time and the road rage was directed at the car in front of us And it could have been us, you know, if it had happened thirty seconds later, he'd have been effing and jffing at us and jumping up and down. you know when someone just loses the plot entirely Bur blood vessel kind of territory And I hope it wasn't in it a hoer of the male kind of way. We were talking about him and about it and expressing a degree of concern about whether the traffic was ever going to get going again And I said to my wife, I said, You don't know what has happened to him this morning. I've never had that thought before And I can't get rid of it now. So if I see someone doing something that I think is reallyally bad, particularly when it comes to temper and anger There was a bloke yesterday. I was in Brentford. There was a bloke in the There's a blke in the phone box. It still got a phone box in Brentford outside Greg's. and he appeared to be on the phone, actually using a phone in a phone box, but he was going tonto and he was hitting the receiver on top of it and shouting down the phone. And again, I just found myself my initial reaction is visceral,' fight or flight So it's disapproval. it's a kind of danger, danger. U Danger bad, danger bad. but then this thing kicks in now where I find myself thinking What happened this morning? Be I don't know when the last time you lost your temper was But I bet when you last lost your temper It happened in circumstances. The thing that triggered you could have happened in other circumstances and you wouldn't have lost your temper. So if you were really stressed already or you were really tired, or possibly were really hung over, which is kind of sometimes a combination of being stressed and tired. Or your husband had left you that morning. This is what I was thinking about the bloke having road rage. I was thinking maybe his wife left him this morning. You don't know what's happened. So there's a little bit of me that thinks that this parent this person in the audience at Rosamund Pkess play may have been a parent with a very anxious child who was at home having a panic attack and so they're desperately texting and it's easier to text from your seat than it is to get out of this. So there is a danger when you're a radio phone in host of introducing too much nuanance compassion and concern into every conversation that you end up with nothing to talk about. Ply, there's a story in the newspaper today that contains details that I think insulate us against any fears of being insensitive or unkind It happened at the Royal Shakespeare Company And it happened in a there that I know quite well in the big theatre, the Memorial theatre at the Royal Shakespeare Comany And Itcns a mother who took her baby to see the tempest Baby. I feel like continue theatrical theme, I feel like Lady Bracknell in the importance of being earnest, but instead of a handbag, it's a baby that a baby. Baby a handbag. Um, And I go to the theatre a lot. And I ain't never seen no baby in no theatre. That literally never It gets worse as you possibly would expect One audience member told the Daily Mail, I've been going to theatre monthly I don't know why I'm doing an accident, that goes against all of my. I've been going to the theatre monthly for over thirty years and I've never seen anything like it There was a young woman with a baby in the audience and it mithered, which suggests this woman was Northern, so I was quite right not to do a rude stereotype middle class accent. It mithered all the way through the first act Thank goodness there was never any actual screaming or crying, but it was gurgling and cooing and chirping very loudly throughout. It never let up They were sitting in the highest tier. So that I know that theatre. that is that it's the gods we used to call it. Do we still call it the gods? Keith used to call it the gods right up in the sky and it's steep as well I remember going there as quite a young Boy, and u Not only was I worried about nosebleleeds, I was worried about falling. It's a really steep bank. I don't know if it's still like that because it's a long time. I don't sit up there anymore, old boy. I sit down in the stalls or the rooyal circle. But back in the day when I'd go on my own to the theatre in Stratford as a school boy It was a nice little deal. fiveive quQid, I think. there was one seat that was all on its own and it had a sort of weird little box in front of it that you could put your program on and halfway through the play you could put your feet on it as well. But anyway, so I know exactly where they were sitting. But the acoustics in the theatre are great. as she says, it's a very compact theatre so everyone in the room could hear it, no doubt including Sir Kenneth and the rest of the cast So this is a reference to Sir Kenneth Branner, who is playing Prospero in the Royal Shakespeare Company's new production of The Tempest Be not afared, the aisle is full of noises. Literally. exxcept that would be Ile spell AI S LE, wouldn't it? if you've got a baby gurgling in the theatre as opposed to Ile, which is what Shakespeare wrote, I SLE. Sounds and sweet airs that give delight and hurt not and What I love about this story there's two dimensions to it. This is the first cues of people lining up to complain at the ticket desks. during the interimmission, even the ushers were being barracked about it because what that paints is a picture of a scenario wherein everybody knew that it was wrong except the mum because there's another bit coming to this story. Everybody knew that this was out of order except the mum And now we come to the mum because as Sean Morgan told The Daily Mail, but then amazingly, I saw the woman herself and she was completely unapologetic Right, C close your eyes Not if you're driving Picture now. Is this bad? Am I being bad, Eleanor? Is this bad G close eyes picture the picture of the mum So the entire there, I exaggerate, but only a bit, the entire there is complaining about the fact that she took a noisy baby into a there, into a play Close your eyes and picture her now, who' do you see actually text me if you see a real person Text me Who do you see Because the witness goes on, she was a Bhemian middle class type accompanied by an older woman who I think must have been her mother, and she seemed to think that everyone else was being unreasonable in asking her not to come back in. It's even got a celebrity angle. David Bunkeet was there Lord Blunket was in the auditorium and Lord Blunket being blind would presumably be even more sensitive to the auditory interference than everybody else would. I think that's true, but who knows? he says himself. I said to the person sitting next to me, I'm very tolerant, but I'm not sure the baby is getting anything out of this, which is a beautifully put little aperch soup Lord bllanket. Apparently the guidance is that babies can be admitted to all performances, but if the child is disturbing others, an adult may need to watch the show from the screen outside of the auditorium with the baby. So there are three elements to this story that I love Neil saw Jacob Buce Mog in a wig. That's not fair on Jacob Bruce Mog. I think that he's politically fairly hideous, but he's extraordinarily well mannered, you know, in the way that the Victorians often use to describe disguise moral turpitude, his P's and Qs and his table manners would be absolutely impeccable. There's no way that Jacob Bree's Mg would cause a disturbance in a theatre albeit that he's possessed of epic senses of entitlement, they can sometimes go hand in hand with etiquette Badeno's getting a lot of votes hous is in N Dine Dor's but anyway, I don't know whether that's fair or not and it's probably not even a game we should have played, but it's too late now, so I'll keep reading out your answers It's that's the bit there I saw the woman herself and she was completely unapologetic two elements to this that I think are really interesting, I only think of two occasions in my life when I have tried Well one of them, she wasn't even misbehaving She was just ruining my enjoyment of a show I've told you about that before, I think, but not for a while. And then we went to see Hamilton a couple of years ago. for the second or third time, it's a real family favourite for us, as you can tell because I sometimes drop Hamilton quotes into our conversation on So we were in the room where it happened and we were watching the play and the family that were both behind us and next to us were behaving, I mean, I'd like to say they were behaving as if they were at the cinema I mean, it would have been annoying in the cinema. They were behaving as if they were at a soft play facility A about eight people probablyably two branches of the same family. The younger children were climbing on things. They were climbing over their other family members, they were climbing over chairs, they were swapping places, they were eating noisily, but that's the risk you take these days. if it's like, you know, things that you can buy in the theater And there was a teenager there, the slightly older child who was on her phone for the entire duration, and after they'd all swapped seats for the fourteenth time, I ended up sitting next to her And I thought I'm never going tell it I'm never going to tell a teenager off Um especially not a teenage girl U So I'll have a word with the parents and I said like, could you think you could keep the noise down finding it very hard to concentrate on the play. and they sort of light whispers and starts up again after ten minutes and I just think Ill forget it. I had to sell a kidney to buy those tickets, but what can you do I'm not one of those people. I can't does it ever even work If you were to shame someone into into say I mean they got eight people and they're all even the parents are joining in Well, what can you do in those sort of scenarios? I don't think there's anything you can do Um And then you have the question of What else you've witnessed? So my daughters went together to a theatre to see an Agatha Christie production And they came home and they've been to the theatre quite a lot over the years, my girls. So they kind of had an idea that this was a little bit out of the ordinary. But they just wanted to double check with dad. So the people in the row in front of them had brought in what I believe is known as a family bucket from Kentucky fried chicken. Now a burger would be bad, right? in a there, but not unheard of. I'm thinking of parallels with the cinema Burger you could just about understand, but not nothing that involves bones If you're in a there and a cinema to a certain extent Bones So the people in the row in front were eating chicken, but eating like drumsticks. In a theater And they were like we didn't know what to do. I mean, you can't I'm amazed they got it past the ushers but I presume if you're listening and you are an usher or an userette, I presume that you wouldouldn't have noticed. You wouldn't let someone into the auditorium with a bucket of chicken, would you wings which are particularly fiddly drumsticks Maybe the odd little fillet a bit of popcorn chick. I mean, it's delicious, Don't get me wrong, but in a theatre it's the finger licking bit as well. It's even in the advertising slogan. you do not want to be sitting in a there within hearing distance of somebody licking their fingers. to suckle the chicken juices off them What would I have done if I'd been there? I don't know. probablyroably nothing. You're either built that way or you're not built that way And then I started talking to younger colleagues This morning and they're all antiaby. All of my younger colleagues who don't have children yet are quite antiaby. So I'm saying obviously you can't take a baby into the theatre and they're saying, Well I don't think you should take them to restaurants either. I say, what? Well where are you going to eat? If you can't take your baby into it, Well, it's al right if they're quiet, but if they start making some noise, if they start screaming, you should pick the baby up and take it outside I think that's probably true, but the thing about being a parent is that you think you're going to be able to stop them from screaming any minute now So you don't want to get. Well your food's going to go ca. So I don't know. The baby's in a theater. I don't think anyone's going to defend that, right? Ohero three four five six zero six zo nine seven three I don't I don't want to sound too bossy But I want like bucket of chicken type stories I don't want or they were really noisy or they were looking at their phone type stories. I want I mean, like youre you're in a there, an auditorium A theater or a cinema, maybe a concert, somewhere where it's a live audience And you can't quite believe what somebody else thinks is acceptable So first of all, How do you complain? Have you done it? Are you one of the people that canan you do it nicely? I've always worked upon the presumption that somebody who is behaving in that way has already made a sort of social contract that they don't care Or if I'd said to that person, maybe they'd never been to the theatre before. And I said to that person, you know, it's really not on to be eating chicken wings in a there and they'd be mortified. So to you have to do So I come on the presumption that they know they're being obnoxious. Therefore there's no point complaining because they will respond obnoxiously to my complaint. This woman in the there with her baby sounds as if if the eyewitness is to be believed, sounds as if she did kind of U behave in a way that was slightly obnoxious. If you've got massive queues of people complaining about the fact you've taken your baby into the theater then it takes something quite special to think that they're all wrong and you're right So how do you do the complaining about other people's behavior. and what is the behavior that you have witnessed that is chicken bucket of chicken territory? Rosamund Ppe put your phone away territory. That's bad enough ual bucket of chicken territory All right in a live audience. I think cinema is slightly different from there because spoiler alert, you can't actually distract the actors that you're watching in the cinema in the way that you go when you're in a theater. And as this eyewitness points out, Sir Kenneth himself could probably hear the baby gurgling and the baby burbling So How do you do the complaining? zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. How do you do the complaining And what is the maddest thing that you have witnessed and possibly wanted to complain about. All right. I told you it was a bit lighterhearted than the other topics that we're discussing at the moment. zero three four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is the number that you need. Also, you're quite right, Kate, there was a redundant yet in that comment when I said my colleagues haven't got children yet, there's a presumption of what you might call a breed up mentality. They may never want to have children And then I found myself wondering, how old do your kids have to get before you become them again. So when your children are young and they make noise in a restaurant and you think, Oh I'll just give them a little bit of a cuddle and then they'll stop crying. So I'm not going to take them outside because my staff has just arrived and it might go cold. So you're one of those bad parents who is disturbing everybody else's dinner by having your child with you. But then your child grows up, your children grow up and they leave home and you're in a restaurant and someone else's baby starts crying and you think, Get out of here now. So you go full circle I't know what age they have to be before that starts to kick back in again, but that's not necessarily the question that that I'm asking today. twenty three minutes after twelve. That's the longest introduction of the day, right on by far the least important topic. It's almost as if this stuff is All right, I'll just stop then. It's twenty five minutes after twelve. I don't know what it is. This is entitlement Bohemian mother causes storm by taking baby to the tempest. goodood work on the headlines. A bucket of chicken in a theatre in London, I think may have been just evidence that those people had never been to the theatre before. because I don't know, but I do know that sometimes people do things and you cannot believe your eyes But what I don't know is how you complain about it effectively or efficiently. So live audiences, unbelievable behavior, the art of complaining Julia is in Sheffield, Julie, what have you got Oh hello J. it was just a couple of years ago we were at the Pictures in Sheaffield and there was a mom in front of us with three young children. It was a youth. they were entitled to be there.. We We didn't know them. And then partway through, she turned round and asked me if I'd take her little boy to the low home Oh to the toilet Yeah, it was about four or five and I just said, Okaykay. And I took I took him he came with me, but I kept saying to people like I'm Rue and in the Low. I don't know him, but his mum has asked me if I'd bring him because she's got two other children. And I didn't complain obviously, well I didn't complain, but I felt, well, actually afterwards, I really wanted to see that film as well That was it you know it would be something like me and husband quite like kidys. It would be a toy story. Oh, lovely. Yeah of course. Yeah, something like that. Maybe a pixar. Are you? Yeah But I felt Yeah I didn't say no. Afterwards, it put me under a bit of pressure. taking a child that didn't know to the toilet. Well of course it does, and maybe there's safguarding issues as well. alough sort of I mean part of me thinks, well, that's nice in a way that It's a reminder of when the world was a much more trusting and less suspicious place, but another part of me is thinking, I wonder if you missed a good bit you pause can never remember part of that film. Do you pause and process it? Did you pause and go well this is extremely strange, but I can't say no, or did you just sort of go o yeah, all right? No, I saw that he really wanted to go because he was in front of me. You know our little boys do they clutch the pants, don't know when they want to go. And I was looking, I think you know had all that but I didn't expect her to turn around and ask me to take him. And I just said, okay. And off we went. didid you talk to him I just kept saying really loud, I think more so the other people here. We're going back to your mummy going back to your mummy when we've been to the w. We may have an early winner here. I mean that is I mean, I don't even know if that's not obnoxious or anything really. It's just completely out of the ordinary, isn't it?ot bad behaviour and I wouldn't complain. I can tell because she's got no choice. can't leave the She can't leave the other two children on their own it Well, I never. Well. She didn't ask me to take all threeay. No. She' a boys and girl. If you got back and she'd said right it'd be like a relay All right it's time for the next one now. off your chop. Yeah madej your b, I love that, Julie. Thankk you. twenty eight minutes after twelve is the time and it gives you you know, how many times have you been at the theatre? or actually the cinema more likely with a mum or a dad who's got multiple young children with them Never once have I thought I don't remember ever having to do that myself, and if I took two children, just two, not even three, and one of them needs to do and you don't want to leave the other one on their own, I suppose it depends how old they are But that's extraordinary zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is a number you need if you want to join in the conversation. If you are wondering is inspired by something which we could have had a Mrs. Mertton style heated debate about it, but I just can't imagine anybody defending somebody taking a baby to the theatre and continuing to insist that they haven't done anything wrong or out of the ordinary when ceues were forming of people trying to complain gurgling and cooing and chirping very loudly throughout the entire performance, which I suppose if you were watching chitty titty bang bang wouldn't matter so much, but if you're watching the tempest It's subopptimal, isn't it? The time now is half past twelve and Matt Hewittt has your headlines twelve thirty two is the time. and that little quote there in Matt's N newsbook it's nailing the point I was trying to make an hour and a half ago about these Hideous scenes reaching us from Belfast. Northern Ireland knows better than anywhere the dangers of trying to blame an entire community or an entire group of people for the actions of an individual But as I predicted would happen, it's happening anyway, attempts to turn the hideous actions of one individual into some wider, broader point about everybody with the same skin colour or everybody with the same country of origin are well underway and gathering pace. I would just briefly remind you that when Sarah Everrard was murdered by a white serving police officer, Nigel Farrid insisted that you shouldn't blame men or police officers I think I'll say that again. When Sarah Everard was murdered by a white serving police officer, Nigel Farage insisted that he shouldn't blame all men or indeed all police shouldn't make any conclusions about anybody except the person that did it, and he was right On that occasion, albeit it subsequently emerged that her killer's misogyny was fairly well documented and recognised by colleagues who perhaps could have done something about it. But just try to think of humanity as a homogeneous force. and when a human is killed in any circumstances, it's a tragedy, and the person responsible is the killer It's an increasingly unfashionable position to adopt, but for the millionth time in the last few years, no pleasure whatsoever in seeing one's predictions entirely come true. twelve thirty four is the time. a couple of things to play to you, including the reception that Donald Trump received when he turned up for a basketball game at the Overnight and indeed a brilliant brilliant powerful, I don't know what you want to call it intervention from the journalist that I was telling you about Scott Pelly who has been fired from sixty minutes and subsequently claimed that he wasn't or that he was being told to inject bias into news reports. What's mad about that is CBS is owned by one of the Ellisons. And when Donald Trump was abusing that female journalist a couple of days ago He included CBS in the list of things that are fake news. So even when you're sacking journalists, essentially for refusing to be biased. You're still going to get it in the neck from Donald Trump because until it is a bit like nineteen forties, Germany, not nineteen thirties until every media outlet, until it's like North Korea and you're just simply not allowed to question him, neverever mind criticizing him then you're going to have problems. So I'll play it to you in this order. Here is Donald Trump talking about Scott Pelly. I think Scott Pelly's got his own problems. He's terrible. Look Scott Pelley's a stiff, and he's afraid And he's part of this, you know, gang of crooked stupid people that Don't care about our country And here is Scott Pelly talking among other things about Donald Trump I've never worn the uniform ' been in combat for this country. in Afghanistan Rock Kawait ve been shot at spent nights in fox holes filling up with water in the desert I'm not aware President of the United States has ever done any of those things for his country? Please correct me if I'm wr. You become a journalist Because you love the First Amendment You become a journalist because you love the country. And while all the other descriptions that the presresident used about me might be applicable, Oh that one There is no Democracy without journalism. It can't be done And that is why I am a journalist That I think will Stand the test of time, that testimony from Scott Perlely talking there to Lulu Garcia Navarro of the New York Times about not the end of his own career, which is well his career isn't over, but his time at sixty Minutes is for the foreseeable future, but talking about the death of democracy It's a favourite subject of mine. You can't make informed opinions without information. You can't make informed opinions without proper journalism Look at the way lies took hold last week about Henry Novak's hideous murder and this ludicrous notion of anti white prejudice in the police. And the people who enforce that aren't journalists. I don't know what they are. stenographers, propagandists The journalist will tell you what the judge said The journalist will tell you what the family said. The journalist will tell you what the prosecuting lawyer said in court. The journalist will tell you pathologist said I don't know what words to use to describe the people that will tell you things other than that who will amplify the words of Nigel Farrge instead of the words of the trial judge, but they're not journalists They're not journalists. Scott Pelly is a journalist and I'm going to play that again actually because I really think You need to be we all need to be reminded sometimes of what the job of a journalist actually is. harder to forget in this country in recent years than in the United States of America, I think, because How many times have I used the word client journalist? I'm afraid that I realize now, listening to Scott Pelly, one of those words is redundant That's why my father became a journalist, my late father I'd like to say that it's why I became one, but I think that would be both pompous and self serving. I don't think I did. I think I became a journalist because I thought it would be a really cool life A really cool job But I listen to people like Scott Pelly today and I'm very, very glad that I did I've never worn the uniform. But I've been in combat for this country In Afghanistan, Rock. Wait been shot at spent nights in fox holes filling up with water in the desert I'm not aware presresident of the United States has ever done any of those things for his country Please correct me if I'm wrong You become a journalist because you love the First Amendment. You become a journalist because you love the country. And while all the other descriptions that the presresident used about me might be applicable There is no Democracy without journalism. It can't be done That is why I am a journalist It's twenty to one, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Let me give you an example of what Scott Pelly is talking about. Okaykay. H here is a Brief clip of events at Madison Square Gardens for a very important basketball game. And here is a clip of the crowd greeting The Pident Here's how it gets described by the Pident in a world where The journalists have been silenced, have been removed, have gone to the place that Scott Pelly was alluding to. You just heard R rattling booing in Madison Square Gardens. And this is the official version of events that without journalists would go unchallenged. I thought great. I mean I thought it was amazing actually. You me where they had the camera on me. I thought it was very good. Yeah. It was certainly amazing. It It was I think mostly cheers was It was loud and it was very enthusiastic So that's what he's talking about. I I had those clips prepared for you. I hadn't realized they were related actually. Because you talk about North Korea or you talk about nineteen forties, Germany, nineteen thirties, Germany That's what happens when you don't have journalism. and that Donald Trump can be booed to the rafters, and the next day's papers will say that he was cheered I think that think I can't remember which paper it was, but when he stormed out of an interview the other day and inappropriately touched the female journalist on the way out It gets written up somewhere as the events that happened in the interview rather than he stormed out when he was asked to provide evidence of election fraud. He stormed out when he was asked to provide evidence of election fraud Because there isn't any. I played you that clip yesterday. But that's what Scott Pelly is talking about An entire stadium of people can boo a man to the rafters, but the official version of events in the absence of Journitism is that he was cheered. to the high heavens, an election can unfold in entirely ordinary and normal ways. but in the absence of decent journalism, the man who lost can lie about it being rigged and stolen and it will become the official narrative. it will become the official version of event A mob of violent people with blood on their minds and the name of a vice president on their lips can march upon the Capitol at the behest of that man who lost that election And they can strike terror into the guardians of democracy who both work there as politicians and work there as Protectors politiciian. And they can leave people dead in their wake. without proper journalists That gets described as an act of patriotism and the criminals responsible for it get pardoned because the liar is in charge, which means the lies have become the official version of event. So here is that crowd once again cheering and showing their love and their admiration for the winner of the FIFA Peace Prize twelve forty seven is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, just a little bit of housework, if you will. I said last week when I interviewed the Labour MP, Jessesarto that I would Share details both of the petition you could sign to show your support for her attempts to hold companies accountable for AI generated sexual abuse images. She's taking legal action against Elon Musk's company after People used its technology to create fake sexualized images of her. and I didn't So I am now sharing the link that you need to sign that petition and indeed the email address that you would need if you wanted to find out more or join in the legal action that Jess is taking on my Blue sky account. So that it would be mis. James OB on bllue sky. So apologies for not doing that sooner. If I told you the reason you'd just laugh at me, did I shared the link. really long on my blue sky and I don't know why And then I did it again the next day and it wasn't really long. I just must have either pressed the wrong button or used the functionality incorrectly, because I'm an idiot. so know I'm glad that we don't press the round of applause when I say that, Kith. So I'm happy that we can clarify that It is twelve forty nine, a little bit lighthearted, I think, needed after that moment there with Scott Paddy. Let's get back to the craziest things the most inappropriate things you've witnessed in a live audience. Connor is in Glasgow. Connor, what would you like to say Good afternoon, James. I just wanted to tell you about a time about two or three years ago when I lived in London, and I was a university student and of an evening, I thought I'll take myself to see the Lion King in the West End And I sit myself down next to a family and the lady I was sittit next to and probably the strangest behavior I've ever seen, whenever there was a character who appeared on stage that she didn't like, she would take handfuls of popcorn that they've been selling in the foyer and threow it at the stage Of course, we were sitting in the circle so none of the popcorn could reach the stage. So lots of people sitting in the stalls were getting a shower of popcorn. so absolutely meanper handful proper handfuls proper handfuls of popcorn, which is not cheap, by the way. I don't want to sound too Scottish And they sell it in the theatre They sell it in the theater of where the Lion King show I love the Lion King. It's a great show. I had an aisle seat last time I went to see the Lion King. and my drink almost got knocked over by a giraffe, but it was my fault for not moving it when the usshers told us to. Well I mean there's part of me. I mean the fact that the popcorn wouldn't reach the stage and would shower just down on the people below is obnoxious But there's part of me that just thinks she was so caught up in it that she didn't realize what she was doing. Possibly I mean the thing which I found crazy about that is that she appears to be a mother there with children. Right. So I remember her being there with two children. this is maybe three years ago. she didn't takeg any of the toilet So you should be counting your lucky stars. So yeah, what you mean is she should have been in control of the situation or what have you? Yeah O or setting an example of how you behave in public to them. but that's why I think she may not have known. It's like a boo hiss moment, isn't it? And it can be a real I like I mean, I like it and I don't like it., listen, if I was sitting below her Boved Yeah But was if I was in the show and someone told me afterwards, I'd go everyvery time you came on stage, there was this woman throwing popcorn at the stage. I don't actually know what she was doing. You'd probably be quietly quite proud Maybe she was just sharing. Maybe she was just sharing. Yeah, participation is exactly that. And of course you didn't say anything I was much too British exactly. I I did my kind of tutting and side eye doing? What you Exactly? That's the point, isn't it? I don't know whether or not we actually approve of the people who do the complaining, even as we berate ourselves for not being the kind of people that can do the complaining thank you for that U Paul's in Selby, Paul, what would you like to say Hi Jams. First of all, can I just say thank you for being a sane voice in what seems like an increasingly insane world? You can actually. Normally. Well, you're very kind. Normally I'd make jokes here about how do I know you are actually sane? We might be the mad ones, but on this occasion, I think I will actually take that to the bank and just say thank you very much. That's very kind of you, Pul, But it is a two way street And I get just as much from you as you are kind enough to suggest that you get from Well, thank you.. So I'm on the other side of the footlights. I'm an actor So I'm on stage and I've seen it all fromom I worked at the National Theatre, I did South Pacific at the National Theatre and with the most wonderful actor, Philip Qost. T A tririple Livier Award winner. And a very very quiet scene between him and the character that played Kables. he comes sneaking on stage and some kid was eating crisps in the audience But he walks up the steps took the crisps of the kid putut them in the kids bag. walked back down and carried on with the scene. Fantastic which was amazing. We all just it was almost like it was part of a scene. and so much so that no one clapped or anything like that. They just qu just carried on So he didn't break the moment. He didn't even break the fourth wall there. Not scene. Stayed in character. It was amazing. Crisps are a kid. Crisps are a thing, right? Chris? Beuse I mean, sometimes I don't understand why they sell anything that's in a wrapper. But crisps, popcorn, you can eat quite quietly. You can't really eat crisps quiet. And the packet is as noisy as the crisp itself. It's an extraordinary thing to pull out in a theatre. But the worst thing that I've seen was last year I was doing railway children in Howour Yes. lovely. Oh lovely. that That was a nice production. Oh, it's fantastic. I did it in London as well, but I went and did it again in Howower King's Cross was it when you did it here? I did it at King's. I finished it off at King's Cross I may have seen you inland. I may have actually se Perfect King's Cross. Oh fantastic. Anyway, if you've seen the show, there's a railway track down the middle of the theater Yeah And and the f you use the side bits and you use the middle bits that come floating up And when we did in How' last year, that people used to literally bring in picnics and they'd sit virtually on the stage having picnics with their children, full on picnics. And poor Graham who played Mr. Pts had to with a trolley going going down this. used had to navigate all these people and these picnics and kids, it was astounding. But you know as well as I do what the groundlings would have got up to at theaters in Shakespeare's day. and you know, they would have been probably shocking oysters. and eating all sorts of things and jostling so that's what I meant about the popcorn at the Lion King. There's a part of me that quite likes the idea of demystifying theatre There is that. I mean, so when I did again, I feel like I'm going through a CV. I feel free. I could listen to you all day. When I did the Scottish playay at York, there a big outdoor theatater so we had ground Right. And I came on as MacDuff. Oh love. And I've got a massive broads sword. I'm huge. No one likes to show off. And I was walking through and the schools tended to be where the groundlings were. Yes. And you know, you're trying to get out of the way through because the entrance is through that way. and I've got an army behind me And and I'd literally have fifteen year old kids standing in front of me like they want me to have a fight with me Oh Yeah And But the worst one was I was at York doing Ctain Hook in Pantamine. and A Heckler shout with something from the audience. So is Captain Hookash shout with something back all that sort of stuff And this guy shouted something else back and I shouted something else back and eventually he offered me out onto the car park. What genuinely? genuinely offer me out with a car pack and I'm still there going Well, I'm disabled for a staff because I've got the suook on. Yes. And I basically turned around and said, lookook, it's a kid's show. What are you doing? It It' kidr the stage. Madness. Pantomes probably you're more likely at a children's show or a pantomon to have adults in the audience that haven't been to the theater before So that that chat probably, I mean, Kry you, I've not witnessed that. So for you, that none of this is out of the ordinary. For me as an audience member, if I witnessed any of this, it would be It would be man bites dog territory, but if you're on stage every night, it becomes Dg Bes man after a while. Well I mean, sometimes it's actually helpful. I've just finished doing smallall Island on tour. Oh yeah. which is fantastic when you get an audience Oh it's fabulous. And in Birmingham, we had an ethnic heavy audience because of the subject matter O course course. And they would shout things out like you tell him, sister which is fantastic. And when you get things like that happening In a show like that, it really, really helps it and it, you know That's interact That's interaction, isn't it? That's not that's not distraction. Yeah, even if it's not. I think American audiences are more like that as well. I think on Broadway things can be quite rambunctious. Can't they? You'll find out one day. No I don't think I'd be allowed into Americ. Well that was nearly a phone in today. We nearly did after this Somali referee has been banned from the World Cup, we nearly did a phone in about why people aren't going the World Cup for fear of precisely the possibility that you described. Thank you, Paul. T fifty seven is the time. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. As promised, we found the biggest victim Brexit, the person for whom you would need a heart of stone not to shed hot tears What did he say, Sidward now Salt tears When Alexander of Macedonia twentyenty seven years old, he shed salt tears because there were no more worlds to conquer Eric Bristop. No thirty two. I got it wrong, she When Alexander of Macedonia was thirty two years old, he shed sal tears because there were no more worlds to conquer Eric Bristore is twenty seven The finest bit of sports commentary ever by humans. It hasn't got much to do with it I'm about to tell you, but this is a person for whom you should be shedding salt tears over Brexit listen to this, there were occasions when we were basically invited along to little dinner parties to be pilloried by everybody else and to be figures of fun. All sorts of weird weird things happened, but it was a very difficult few years This is Matthew Elliott, the founder of Vote Leave complaining about the reception he received after helping to turn us into the first population in human history that actually voted to cast or to impose economic sanctions on himself. He also goes on to say that Brexit has been a success, yes, one hundred percent whichich makes it a bit odd that today's new feature, which is called unhinged event. We've got some special production for it Unhinged event. is one inevitably promoted by the Daily Telegraph called How to Make Brexit a success. So you've got the founder of Vote Leave saying Brexit is already a success. and then you've got Alista Heath inevitably, James Fran Allison Pearson and then David Frost and Daniel Hanan all attending a panel called How to Make Brexit a success. So we've now reached the bit where one of the architects is saying it's all been a great success, and five of the other architects are saying, well it hasn't actually been a great success, but there is a successful Brexit. it just goes to a different school. All of which begs the question of why Lord Hannan and Lord Frost accepted their peerages for services to Brexit if Brexit still hasn't been a success But I am a bear of very little brain, and I have neither the energy nor the inclination to try to answer that question That was pretty slick that one, Keith, and we didn't even rehearse. It'll never catch on. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Gobal Player app or the LBC app where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions. You can listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Day, the best bits from my LBC show every day. So do download the official LBC app for free from your app store now Coming up before an LBC, Simon Marks is in for Tom Swarbrick, What a treat. The only downside is, of course it means he can't pop up on my show while he's sitting in for Tom. But now it's time for Sheila Fus This has been a Gobal Player original production.