Trump's cognitive tests and political controversies

This is a Global Player original podcast Three minutes after ten is the time. A very good morning indeed to you. And what a horrible morning it is. I don't know. to do. I don't often admit that to you. and if I do, it's sometimes a little bit tongue in cheek because I get to decide anyway and you kind of have to go along with it Um It's almost impossible to pick the worst bit of the murder of Henry Novak. I think probably the police officer telling him as he revealed, stated that he'd been stabbed. I don't think so Mate,'s probably the most unbearable element of all of it. and those police officers already under investigation by the by the relevant authorities The problem is that where you see tragedy and horror and where you feel disgust and Other people see opportunity and feel an almost sort of gleeful relish at the prospect of provoking more violent responses, just as the same people did after the murders in Southport, having helped spread profoundly and entirely untrue lies about the murderer in that case. And of course, when people as a consequence of those lies, took to the streets to attack entirely innocent people. took to social media to call for poggroms in profoundly illegal ways, they have been lauded and defended by precisely the sort of people who woke up this morning and saw not tragedy but opportunity And of course, some people lack the conscience to recognise that and will instead offer platforms and amplifications of calls for I mean so Perilously close, so vanishingly close of violence that you may not need have bothered with the euphemisms, respond with cold hard rage? said Nigel Farage. What does that mean? If not, do what you did after the Southport killings when I was responsible for spreading and racist lies and I don't want to talk about that I don't want to talk about that I don't really want to talk about him And yet you look across the media spectrum and you see the A attttention that's being paid to his latest attempts at sowing hatred and division. Listen, feel what you want about the murderer. I feel deep and abiding hatred towards him I hope he is never released, you know, it doesn't matter how How bleeding your liberal heart may be, there are many, many crimes that just sort of almost compel you to leave any form of compassion or sympathy at the door. He sounds like a hideous little man and has committed a truly, truly heinous crime. Again, apart from the father king about the lack of dignity with which his son died and a police officer telling him that he didn't think he had been stabbed when he'd been stabbed multiple times, The sister Hry's sister talking about the hole that has been left in her life was close to was close to unbearable I mean Do we let him and his hatred and his desire for violence on the streets of our country distract us from The horror of what happened to Henry. Do we let him and his vicious lies about two tier policing His deployment of white supremacist slogans like white Les matter? Some people referencing George Floyd this morning, a man who was murdered by white racist policeman. Henry Novak murdered by a British youngster, a young British man. Of course some people want to stick seek in the headlines in ways that they would never stick Christian or Jew or some other religious. I can't remember the last time I read about a Catholic murderer, but given that the weapon he used was something that some people of that faith are permitted to carry in public, then I can sort of see why, Daily mail, been a particularly disgusting stoop, even by their standards, puts the word seeking quotes that are attributed to Henry's father Despite the fact that Henry's father did not use the word seek as far as I can tell in his Heartfelt and heartbreaking Um description of his son's final hours. Police dragged our son across gravel, handcuffed him and left him to die, then treated his sik murderer with decency. That's in quotes in the Daily Mail And yet what he actually said, what Mark Novak actually said, His murderer, however, was afforded decency. he was believed. he was not handcuffed when arrested, he was not handcuffed when Transported to the police station, as far as we understand, he was never handcuffed at all. Actually I just want you to hear his words. for yourself You'll have to ask the editor of the Daily Mail where they've pretended that he used the word seek in these comments Just as you'd have to ask Nigel Farrid yourself how we could have woken up this morning and seen opportunity where everybody half decencies, tragedy and horror. Again, I say it again, feel anything you want about the killer. I've got this weird habit of not wanting to say the killer's name. I'm on the radio, it's pathet I did actually I mean it is genuinely pathetic on my part because it achieves nothing, but it's almost as if you It's almost as if you dirty your own tongue by saying it Um I just want you to listen to what Peter Novak had to say outside court yesterday. And I think it's also important to remember when his son's murderer was sentenced to life in prison after an investigation by police officers who Peter Novak thanked. You could be forgiven for not knowing a lot of things about this story if you're following some. Olets. The nine hundred and ninety nine call was made by the murderer's brother I don't know what the rules are for police turning up, but I would imagine that the first people you turn to were the people that called you And then a criminal lies, a disgusting criminal tells disgusting lies. And the reaction of the police is so awful that it's almost impossible to believe. It may become easier to believe when we have all the facts, but the reply I don't think you have mate Audible on the body cam footage released last night by the police with the family's permission. This would be the police that are somehow engaging in two tier policing or not to be trusted or the police that some people want you to start attacking today They released the bodycam footage. so committed are they to full transparency And you can hear this police officer I don't think you have made. I've been stabbed and I can't breathe I don't think you have me He. And I don't know what to do today because I mean, there is no phoning to have about Henry. What happened to him was disgusting, and heartbreaking And there is a foning to have about a disgusting man seeking to make political capital out of it and being aided and abetted by members of my profession H haaving already seen what happened when I mean the riots in Southport were named after him by many people Myself included, we all know what the fararriage riots are. We all know that people arrested during them have since then, twenty percent of the people arrested during those ris have been arrested for domestic abuse So all the people protecting our women are going home to batter them And those are the people to whom he speaks. Those are the people who he is calling upon today to respond with cold, hard rage What do you think he means? Do I need to spell it out I'll tell you what, there'll be senior police officers up and down this country at the moment, thanking God that it's raining ' there's the one thing that quells vicious Violence directed at entirely innocent people, whether they're asylum seekers living in a hotel, a former hotel, a repurposed hotel or whether they are seek human beings who have no more involvement in this crime than you or Nigel Farage does. He wants you to Um, Look a scans at the very least and look a scans at them don't trust the police and don't trust The Bown people, what has this story got to do with immigration? Do people start talking about the birth rate whenever Somebody who can trace their lineage back to the Doomsday book commits a murder. Oh, we've got too many people being born in this country show me a population of people and there will be some criminals in it. showh me a population of people of colour in this country and they are more likely to die in police custody They are more likely if they're a young woman or girl to be strip searched by police. yeah, but the police are biased against white people police are biased against white people, says Nigel Farr, not long ago was urging hatred against anybody with a Polish surname, L Novak which is, I think the most popular surname in Poland. telling me that he wouldn't want to live next doaor to Eastern European People of Eastern European heritage. but hey Where you see tragedy, he sees opportunity. He sees opportunity. And um O then you get the what would it be the kind of projection? switching it the other way round because people respond differently according to the colour of the victim and the perpetrator. and that way madness lies. Whever way round you see it You can be absolutely heartbroken and furious about a murder, but you shouldn't be more heartbroken and furious because somebody has introduced the ethnicity of the killer into the conversation. How can you make the murder of Henry Novak about immigration How can you make the murder of a young man with a Polish surname in beautiful, diverse Britain about immigration. unless you're sick. And I don't want to talk about it because I don't want to talk about that sickness. I don't particularly want to talk about the killer's sickness Id tell you what though, this man deserves better. This man does not deserve to have his son's murder turned into a political opportunity. Instead of being treated as a dying victim, police formally arrested Henry for assault and read him his rights That was the last thing he heard Henry did not die with dignity. He did not die with the care he deserved. He lost consciousness before anyone believed him. It is fourteen minutes after ten, so. What do we do then together? Iinois How do you deal with the fact that a hideous murder on which we should all be agreed should never have happened and the police officers who didn't believe Henry in his dying moments should be and will be investigated to the nth degree. But what do we do about the fact that we live in a country now where public discourse is such But the people trying to turn it into an opportunity and trying to incite The kind of violence that we saw on our streets after the Southport murders are essentially having a red carpet rolled out for them in some quarters. Not all, I was slightly gratified. to see some broadcasters behaving with dignity and a morality this morning For others, I don't know, it's just good copy is it Let's get him on and let him spew his vile provocations unchallenged and I don't know, go out for a nice long lunch or something. And what do I what do ye, that' what I'm going to ask you. What do I do Seriously, what do I do on a morning like this? zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three because if I call out Farage, which I'm currently doing in the most obvious and straightforward of ways because every single thing I've said is true Um then I'm being distracted from the real story as well But how can you not How can you not? You saw what happened if it goes unchallenged. You saw what happen when the lies on Twitter after The Southport murders went unchallenged.s didn't go unchallenged. They got amplified and disseminated by people like Nigel Ferarage A woman who called for a pogram, literally called for a pogram, got invited onto stage at his party conference and cheered to the rafters shortly after being released from jail And to claim that this is evidence of a sort of anti white feeling in a country where police services are routinely found to be suffering from institutional racism is almost beyond Beyond compreension, isn't it? unless you understand that racism is always part of a triumvirate It goes hand in hand with shame or shamelessness. Dishonesty. You can't be a racist unless you're a liar. come to this story and read about Henry or learn about Henry's murder And think, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to encourage everybody to be even more angry about immigration in Jal. What' you do when the murder is white? Well, I could answer that question. Nothing Unless he's got a name like Novak course, in which case you'd be wanging on about how we have to stop freedom of movement and get all the E eastern European people out of our country The opportunism is so enormous So hideous I'm afraid I can't really cling any longer to the idea that people can't see it. They just must like it. It's when George Floyd was brought into the conversation this morning. So I really found myself reeling. And of course, it is the idea that an outpouring of grief and sorrow for a black man murdered by the police enraged people They don't think that a black man should ever receive that sort of treatment. The idea of people taking the knee because a black man was murdered by a racist policeman. We shouldn't be extending that sort of dignity and compassion to a black man And of course, those of us who want nothing but dignity and compassion for all victims of murder somehow get cast as being the enemy of the racists I'm happy with that badge. I'm happy with that hat But I mean I can't quite see how anybody would bring the racist murder of a black man by a white police officer into a conversation about an opportunistic murder of a white boy by a man with a long history of Fascination with violence and fascination with weapons and a criminal who lied and got briefly believed by the police What do we do Do we have to talk about Nigel Farage today Oh three four five. I mean it again then I'm being I'm not being deliberately disingenuous because if you ring me and tell me that we shouldn't be talking about Nigel Farage, we're talking about Nigel Farrage, aren't we which is of course what he wants. So what do we do? Actually, that's the question. What do we do zero three four five, sixzero six zero nine seven three is the number that you need What do you do? It's a hideous hideous murder. If, as is being suggested by some people, police officers turn up at the scene and are not responding to the fact that the person who made the call is the person that you listen to first and are instead deciding to treat people differently because they're white then you'd have to explain. All of the crime statistics in this country that point in the opposite direction, that point completely and comprehensively in the opposite direction. So if you have some ghoul, some monstrous character trying to turn Henry's murder into an opportunity not only for self promotion and publicity but also for fermenting and inciting more violence Just remember what I told you a few months ago As immigration plummets, these monsters are going to have to start going after people who've been here for years They're going to have to start going after people whose families have been here for generations They're going to have to start going after anybody with a slightly foreign surname or with slightly dark skin. Not enough, is it? immmigration comes down to net zero, who are they going to tell you to get angry with? Well, on a day like today They tell you to get angry with Iain, haveave you ever been on the hook For the crime of somebody about whom you know nothing and with whom you have absolutely nothing in common The judgees has already warned that the Sikh community have been victims of abuse and racism. I don't get that Like a tiny tiny taste of it when I was a kid and some Lads at school presumably copying their fathers or bringing in stuff from home. If the IRA committed an atrocity, then the lads at my pract school who had an apostrophe in their surname would get a little bit of jip. and you'd be utterly baffled by it But of course, it is the idea that if an Irish organization commits an atrocity, then all Irish people are either in favor of it, supportive of it or complicit in it and And that's what you have today A man who is a Sikh That's why the word seek is inserted inaccurately and for my money, indefensibly. into the Daily Mail headline in quotes, as if his father actually said it when as far as I can tell he didn't. You are now supposed to feel hatred towards not just all Sikhs but all brown people and indeed all immigrants, because Nigel Farage is trying to make this conversation about Imigrants And what do you do? How do we respond to that Oh three, four, five, sixzo, sixzo nine seven, three is the number you need. If I don't do what I just did Do I make things worse or better? If you want to go out and set fire to a hotel today, or you want to go out and punch a sek in the face, or you want to go out and articulate the cold hard rage that creepy Uncle Nigel is ordering you to feel today. I want you to know what you're doing I don't want you to be able to hide under a cloak of legitimate concerns or the common man's feelings. You are being encouraged to be a violent racist by a man who, a couple of summers ago, unleashed a torrent of violent racism upon the streets of our country and has never said anything close to sorry for it So if people like me don't point it out, if people like me don't Say anything then can you still pretend I haven't heard any comment on the fact that of all the men arrested during the Farage iots last time round I think twenty percent or more of them have subsequently been arrested for domestic abuse Those are his stormtroopers, if you like. Those are the front line of his fan base If you want to follow them Then fine, but I think you need to know what you're doing. I think you need to know what you're doing ero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. It's with a very, very heavy heart And because we respond to events We very, very rarely find ourselves in the situation of creating events. We respond to events I think we have to address the attempts to turn this tragedy into pooison that Nigel Farge wants to inject into the bloodstream of our population. I think we have to talk about it. Tell me why we shouldn't o three four five, sixz six zero nine seven, three is the number you need, but also what do we do about this What do we do about this It's a hideous murder. Elements of it are unbearable, absolutely unbearable It was horrible enough before Farage turned up trying to make it all about him because that's what he's doing And that's why I've got this weird quite what the word is. It's really weird dissonance inside me. Nigel Farage wants to make the murder of a beautiful eighteen year old boy all about him And I'm kind of helping. because I think to stay silent is to let that poison call through the bloodstream of our population in the way that it did. after Southport and in a way that he wants it to continue to do so until we all go mad And we all turn on each other Nigel Farage wants Henry Novak's murder to be all about him He's been in hiding for months, desperate to avoid questions about the five million quid he accepted from an immigrant. In Thailand? That's worth saying that again, isn't it? The five million quid he's secretly accepted from an immigrant from a beneficiary of migration, from an economic migrant, or probably dual citizenship, but he's based in Thailand. He's even got a Thai name to do business in Thailand, but hey, down with immigration. So it's just bonkers. Nigel Farge wants this murder to be all about him. I think I saw, it may have been faked. I will be addressing the nation Who does he think he is? I will be addressing the nation The King addresses the nation, the prrime Minister addresses the nation, the manager of the England football team hopefully addresses the nation. It's just extraordinary. this combination of moral depravity, pomosity and shamelessness And yet I still listen, come here a minute All right, because I do this for a living, you know I do. and some days I get on my soap boookx And some days I'm a bit mischievous and some days I'm the presenter and you're the punter, the listener. And some days I just thank all my lucky stars that I've got a job where I can articulate what I'm feeling to you and I can invite you to do the same. It helps me And I know you've been kind enough to tell me in the past that it. that it helps you and There comes a moment every now and then, incredibly rare. E now and then. where I don't actually know what to do. I've got genuine and profound cognitive dissonance. I think it is disgusting that Nigel Farge wants to make Henry Novak's murder all about him But I think we have to talk about Nigel Farge and his attempts to turn Henry Novak's murder into both publicity opportunity for him and anotherother exercise, potentially an inciting violence. I mean, it's so obvious. I mean, listen, you might like the violence You might love the violent At least you should be honest about it. So what do we do on a day like today zero three, four, five, six zero sixzero nine seven three is the number that you need. What alternative do you have to addressing directly the second chapter of Nigel Farage's history of Turning tragedies and murders into opportunities and Potentially riots. What do you do about it? G. zero three, four five, sixzero sixzero nine seven three is the number that you need. I got a lot of questions this morning about how anybody can be so shameless or how indeed anybody can facilitate such shamelessness, or how anybody can go along with it. And the answer is simple. The answer is simple. If someone of colour commits a crime, it is an opportunity to portray all people of colour in a negative light. in the same way that if the IRA committed an atrocity in the nineteen seventies or the nineteen eighties, a certain type of human being would attack all Irish people or claim that no Irish people could be trusted. If a Pll committed a murder ten years ago, they'd have been calling for everybody with a Polish surname to have been either deported from the country or prevented from entering in the first place. It just never happens with the majority population. If I committed a crime tomorrow, you wouldn't be held responsible for it I even when radio presenters were being arrested at a rate of knots for all sorts of hideous crimes, largely against children, nobody pretended that white radio presenters were automatically a problem or automatically suspect. White middle aged radio presenters can't be trusted because of that long list of media professionals who turned out to be paophiles, it doesn't ever happen to the majority happens to women a bit but nowhere near. on the scale that other forms of misogyny happen, you just look at crimes like this. and you use them to attack innocent people. That's the difference. That's where the population divides Do we use this murder to attack innocent people? orr do we focus on the guilty? And if the guilty turn out to include the police officers, then then by all means go after them as well when we have the facts in front of us, but to turn it into a conversation about immmigration Turn it into a conversation about Sk turn it into a conversation about Asians. All these words, by the way are in my inbox already this morning and to turn it into a conversation about cold rage. Who are you supposed to direct your cold rage at until you have all the facts until you have all the fs Y You can tell I'm confused because I completely forgot about the quarter past ten break for which I apologize. and as I glance towards the cllock, I see that we're almost at the half past ten headlines, for which I also apologize. And I apologize because good things come in threes for not having a clearer line on this because there's a part of me that thinks this could be a terrible miscalculation on my part. Don't talk about it, James Don't tell the truth. I mean, when you're thinking to yourself, should I be telling the truth today orr should I stay silent What would Henry But do he want his murder to be turned into an opportunity to hate all migrants or to attack immigration I don't know, we very much doubt it. His family have spoken with absolute dignity and decorum at every term, including things that some people won't have told you about, profound and heart thanks for the investigating officers who are responsible for the fact that this character has been locked up, hopefully for the rest of his life. But of course some people want you to forget about the fact that justice has been done and has been seen to be done want you instead to focus on some mythical persecution of white people by police forces that are routinely I don't know. Anyway. I'll take some calls in a minute. zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three is the number that you need. justust to tell me and tell me I've got it horribly wrong if you want But I respond to what the media is doing And the media is allowing Nigel Farrage to turn the murder of Henry Novak into an opportunity an opportunity to ferent hatred And I don't think it could be correct to stay silent, but I am Pose open to persuasion H'somin Kellis with the headlines I think just partly to assuage my own misgivings and potential embarrassment, I'm going to play Mark Movak's words at the beginning of every segment before we have a conversation about the correct way to respond when a politician is attempting to with the help of some members of the media is attempting to turn it into a an exercise in self aggrandisement and quite possibly incitement to the sort of violence that he helped incite after the Southport riot. So just keep this in your mind if you can Instead of being treated as a dying victim, police formally arrested Henry for assault and read him his rights That was the last thing he heard Henry did not die with dignity. He did not die with the care he deserved. He lost consciousness before anyone believed him. And you know, you're a father, I'm a father. I was an eighteen year old boy once who, you know got into bother and sometimes not suggesting Henry did this for a minute, but I would have a temptation sometimes let my mouth run away with it. You just can't process the horror of it. then You wake up and find out that Nigel Farrage is trying to make it all about him. How do you respond? What is the correct way to respond to such such suchuch vampiric shamelessness. Sean's in Birmingham, Sean. what would you like to say? Hello James. Just on that on that first question of what do we do? what do we talk about here? I think the important bit at the first point is to have the conversation to start with because if we don't do this together, No one in mainstream media with a large platform will. so I welcome you opening up the phone lines on this Friday. Yeah, I don't know that's entirely fair. I mean my ego is big enough, so normally I mean, I'm sure other people are going to be equally disturbed by what Nigel Farrid is doing And anyway, time will tell, but thank you, I suppose. I think it's to provide the criticism that is required. So there's a necessary separate conversation about F Ach, but there's also a conversation about Martin Novic and the family of what would they want because I think what I'm seeing here from that emergency broadcast that Farage called it this morning, he is trying to do the Farage rightves me to. There is this conversation of rage, white Lives matter, the conflation with George Lloyd and that he got all of this and he was a criminal and we should be doing more for no that. That's the messaging that I took having watched that emergency broadcast as to what he was trying to put out there. And I think a conversation of have he considered in his response What the family would want, I don't think at all is using a death of a young man as a political football and it is disgusting. There are points to be made about the carrying of blades, some of which inevitably and correctly will encompass The dispensation is given to some Sikhs, although neither the killer's father nor brother carried a blade. So as the judge pointed out in court The dispensation didn't really or shouldn't really have applied to this scum bag And is that is a conversation that can be prompted by this, but to have a conversation about to try to turn it into a conversation about immigration. The problem with what you just said is that one day a family will ' join in. I remember do you remember the murder of Alice Gross in West London in Ealing and the man who murdered her was a Latvian immigrant, I think, and the family begged publicly for people not to turn it into a conversation about immigration or not to let it be conversation about immigrants and they were of course, completely ignored and I agree with you today about Henry's family, but one day there'll be a murder that is committed by somebody of colour. and the family will persuaded to agree with Nigel Farages provocations and incitement. So I don't know that it can be the only guiding like, but sometimes society has to in the same way that the families don't get to go to court and pass sentence or judgment on murderers, neither do they necessarily to determine the parameters of the conversation that follow. Y. And I guess that comes ono what I was thinking of the second question. And perhaps that's more important than with've that considered, which is what went wrong in this case and how do we make sure it doesn't happen again? Because the as you mentioned there, the conversation is being pointed to oh, if we didn't have immigration, this wouldn't have happened. That's the takeaway and it's ridiculous. I did it with Lee Rigby as well, of course. Yeah when Fus L Rigby was murdered. And I think his mother asked for people to stop making it about race or immigration An of those issues and yet here on they went And I think of Southport as well, you know, the desire for the criminal to be you know a asylum seeker, a small boat migrant, as they love to say, to push this narrative further. And I think the conversation needs to be. think I think one of the conversations that I think needs to happen is thinking about the police. Now I think what the police did there was wrong from what we've seen of the footage, what we've seen from the commentary. But I think if I was put in a policeman's shoes and I was being told I've just had a hate crime done to me. And it's been reported by the killer's brother. I think I don't know enough about the police procedures to know or to state how significant that is, but you presume that the The first response when you turn up at a crime scene is to listen to the people that reported the crime But at the same time, you've got to stay curious and I think curioust I haven't been curious enough. No. And I think as well there's, I mean, it comes down to this is not the conversation that we're having, but you know, elements of police brutality and this is the criminal. I am the police officer. We're going to dismiss the criminal and the criminal is Yeah, but it's also this is what Farage has done. The reason why they didn't believe Henry is because Henry's white But this is the thing. it's nothing to do with it. Of course it is that sense, of course Of course but the desperation to believe that. And of course, you know, it's not confined By any stretch of the imaginations of Faragen is close compats. I'd say that eighty percent of high profile media figures, you could see it during the George Floyd story absolutely of the same view that you shouldn't be affording dignity to black people. And if a white person is badly treated by the police, it's because they're white It's extraordinary the dishonesty involved in holding that, maintaining that position. Exactly. And I think what we have to do is just make it crystal clear and to criticize Barj for this because it's Sorry God. Well then you're doing the thing he wants you to do, which is making it about him, all about him But this is why I say we have the two conversations side by side. So what is the conversation that we should be having from the fact that a terrible crime has happened and the actions that shouldn' that should have taken place haven't, but alongside that having the conversation about what is Farage not talking about? What is Farage decided to ignore to pursue his political agenda of making us fight each other instead of having a conversation and coming together and saying, what has went wrong here? and how do we make sure something this terrible never happens again? And that is going to be a conversation about knife crime, about probably about police processes, but I'd need a police officer to tell me a little bit more about that. If I phone in to report a crime, even if I've committed it Surely the police are going to listen to me first when they turn out. I mean let's take Sean's guidance then and ask police officers if they have any insights. because I mean, listen, if this officer turns out to deserve all the approbrium that is being heaped upon him. Th then bring it on. abbsolutely bring it on I would be interested to know whether police officers following this story have a clear idea And I don't mean secret memos produced out of a hat by Nigel Farage. I mean a clear idea of what would have happened in that moment when you turned up. I reported the crime, or my brother reported the crime So I turn up and I talk first to the person that reported the crime and they've accused Henry of being me you take their version of events first. I mean, is that is that comprehensible or defensible And it's unbearable. It's utterly, utterly heartbreaking But of course, what is not happening here and what Sean points us towards is a world where If the ethnicities of these two men were swapped around our response would be exactly the same response would be exactly the same. I mean it probably wouldn't be exactly the same because of the long history of genuine institutional racism demonstrated by police officers as most obviously evidenident if you want to hop across the Atlantic in the case of George Floyd So it's as if they're taking a genuine racism and dismissing it and inventing racism And fermenting it, It's quite extraordinary. I'm not aware of any suggestions that this murder occurred because of the ethnicity of either the victim or the perpetrator. and yet somehow, Nigel Farage is successfully turning it into a conversation about race and immigration It's like all his Christmases came at once Thank you Sean. Roberttss in Potter's bar, Robert, do you think Well, I think lots of things, James't we all want that, but specific to this conversation if you can. see what you're saying. I think that the question of should we or shouldn't we be talking about Barrage is so tricky. but I think ultimately, yes, but the problem with talking about him is those that follow him or those that might follow him only hear the stuff they want to hear and don't hear the bad stuff, the truth but people like And there are many around the world, I believe use one medium and prey on one part of hum human beingness which is fear When you can identify a group of people or create a group of people and tell them that they should be afraid of something and then demonstrate in real life why and how they should be afraid of it. they will follow you to the ends of the earth. I mean, I don't want to bring religion into it, but there's the best sales job of all time. But tell people they should be afraid of something and you've got the solution. They'll follow you their own detriment And when you're in an echo chamber and everyones saying the same thing, obviously, it reinforces the point to you. And when when as will happen, you know, a person of color or whether they're Mexicans and they're all rapists and terrible people or whether they're this that or the other taking our jobs or women or men it just reinforces to those people that are thick enough to believe it that it's true. And ten years ago it was people of Polish or Romanian heritage. And in ten years time, it will be Irish people again. Yeah, well, I mean, it will be someone else again U and I think I think You know, we we even see it, you know, every day of every weekend, you know, football teams the supporters of which literally hate or many of the supporters of which literally hate and in some cases will aggressively pursue them because they're told that they're different U I did some work many years ago for an amazing charity, which was a charity against racism. And I went to a rather rough prison in the North of England and spoke to many hardened prisoners who were clearly racist, but literally had no idea that they were because all they had grown up with is if you difference to us in whatever way, you you've got to be wiped out. And they And it works and we sit here wringing our hands and knitting our brows and worrying our beads about it. But it just works. It works really, really well. A terrible murder has occurred. Go out and attack people. It had nothing to do with it. It works in Southport and it might it doesn't seem to be working quite the same way here. I mean, my inbox is not a completely reliable guge of these things, but a number of people obsessed with the ethnicity of the murderer speaks to precisely the flames that Farage is trying to fan But I wonder whether it works as well this time, you know? I don't know Thatusts the image, isn't it? You need the emotional heft, whether it's little girls at a Taylor Swift concert or this poor boy lying there and the police not realizing that he's dying and telling him that he's lying You just feel horror and heartbreak at that. and of course some people feel That sort of burgeoning sense of gleefful anticipation. I can turn this into something to attack entirely innocent people with If the police are guilty, then, you know, The punishment is too harsh for them, but for everybody else that is being put into the firing line as a consequence of this hideous crime, it's just utterly, utterly shameful. So you either welcome it or you're repulsse by it. There's no room for a middle ground anymore A murder has occurred. Who are you cross with? The murderer and possibly the police who responded very badly. Who else are you cross with? Well, nobody, obviously. Or you're in a gang that's crossed with all brown people, all Sikhs all Asians, all immigrants, all foreigners. and if you're in that gang, then You need to be honest about You need to tell the truth. ten forty seven is the time. and of course, he keeps offering you opportunities to pretend that that's not what's going on to pretend that you've got legitimate concerns or that you're just asking questions Extraordinary. Oho three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is a number you need to add to the conversation about how you respond to a politician, any politician who takes a hideous murder, whether it is in Southport, or Southampton and seeks to turn it into both a personal opportunity And an incitement Ito rage or violence or both. It's ten forty eight When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done. inststead of being treated as a dying victim Police formally arrested Henry for assault and read him his writes That was the last thing he heard Henry did not die with dignity He did not die with the care he deserved. He lost consciousness before anyone believed him. I make no apology for playing that to several times this morning. It's by far the most heartbreaking element of Henry Novak's murder. I mean to my unprofessional and untutored eye, the at the very least horribly inadequate response of the police. but I stress I'm not joining any lynch mobs there until I understand the facts and the protocols a little better. To that end, I think we will be joined a little later in the programme by someone who will really know what goes on in these situations. But to listen to that, and think I know what I'll do. I'll make a speech about immigration And I'll tell people to be full of rage Sorry, because the reason why that poor boy was treated in the way that he was was because he's white I didn't see that bit coming. I predicted the movement of the spotlight. Once immigration started plummeting, they would go after people who had foreign surnames like Novak or even O'Brien, but most obviously, of course, in the first instance, Asian surnames. Chris makes a good point. He says I find it interesting that the EDL used to embrace members of the British Sikh community as the acceptable face of brown immigration because of the friction between some Sikhs and Muslims, it highlights how truly vile they are and there' be some some wake up calls this morning for people who facilitated and went along with that behaviour, but the idea that you turn it into a conversation about immigration, but also Once the immigration balloon has burst, O kissed armor has to my mind somewhat shamefully capitulated to the narrative that immigration is bad when it obviously isn't. What do you do next? Well, you go after people who are not immigrants, but who are a little bit foreign And also, you claim that you're discriminated against But I don't know how I didn't see that coming. As all they do, these people is whine or shout And when they're not shouting, they're whining. and some people can do both at the same time, which we heard earlier this morning And you just whine about being a victim Poor me, poor me, always victims There' only one victim in this crime, and it is, to say the very least highly unlikely that what happened to him happened because of the colour of his skin, which of course is not something you can say and all of the cases and subsequent miscarriages of justice that have been found to have been down to institutional racism on the part of the police. So what they want these people is they want two things. They want permission to be racist And they want people alleging racism to be silenced And that means when someone alleges racism wrongly like this this murderer, this scumbag. They want to use that as a way in which to undermine or discredit all allegations and accusations of racism Because if you're a racist, what do you want to happen to accusations and allegations of racism? You want the accuser and the alleger to be maligned and silenced. So what this scumbag does, with his hideous lies about Henry Novak is he gives enormous amounts of ammunition to racists who want allegations and accusations of racism to be excised from the record, even when they're completely accurate So many elements to this when you start thinking about it that are not only hideous but also deeply, deeply reflective of where we are at the moment as a country which I think is why I think it's why we have to talk about it I also should tell you this, the family of the Killer has apologized to the family of murder victim Henry Novak and also for bringing the Sikh community into disrepute The statement comes as the murderer's mother and I'm not saying the names and I don't know why and it probably doesn't matter, but that's just something I do await sentencing for asking assisting an offender by taking the knife used to kill Henry in Southampton back to the nearby family home. She'll be sentenced on the seventeenth of July. In a statement through the Sih Press Association, the rest of the family said The loss of a young life is a grief that no family should ever have to carry deeply sorry for the pain and suffering the Novak family has had to endure. They go on, We love our son. We will continue to love him. That love does not stand in opposition to the sorrow we feel for the Novak family. Both are real and both will remain with us. for the rest of our lives, we would give anything turn back time, so the path of both Henry And our sun never crossed that night. We cannot change what has happened. We just hope that no further pain is caused in its name. Well, some people really want further pain to be caused in its name, of course, which is why we're having the conversation that we're having Sarah is in Tombury, Sarah, what would you like to say? Well, you wondered if you should be discussing this and if it gave more oxygen to you know who. And I'm delighted you are giving space for this becausecause I've just had to turn the radio off most times because you only hear the other side and you hear farage going on about we're second class citizens and the double tier this and that and the other, which is uch a load of bologoney. notothing s second class citizen like trarousering five million quid from a foreign based crypto billionaire. They're the real victims here. I think we can all agree about that Well, I immediately thought back to toral Doreen and Neville Lawrence and their son being murdered. and He was with his friend Dayne Brooks. And he was taken he wasn't actually arrested then, but he was taken into the police station and abused. Anyway, it took twenty basically twenty years before the criminals who are white thug boys U into jail. And I believe only two of them really paay the price And the other one, the most horrendous case I'm thinking of, is, I don't know if you remember an Iranian man. He was head learning difficulties, He's living on an estate in Bristol. and he was murdered in twenty thirteen. He had phone the police eighty five times for the abuse he was getting from the estate he lived on And you know, harassed and his windows broken and you name it and spat in the street all that. They eventually murdered him. The police, by the way did nothing about it. except I remember Bijan Abrahami, I think you're talking about. He was murdered by one of his neighbors who'd falsely accused him of being a pedop file. I'm just conscious of the time because Okay all I'm saying is These cases were like this horrible case. But this isn't part of the same process and no one is suggesting that Henry died because he's white Nigel Farrage is suggesting that the police treated him inadequately because he's white, but even he isn't shameful enough to claim that this was a racist murder or a race based murder. No, no, but what I'm saying let take that back. Of course he's shameful enough to do that. He just hasn't done it yet. Yeah but what I'm saying the police you know, kind of sided with the whites on this on those two cases as well.. I mean, so, you know So for once, somebody believed wrongly in this case dark skin person.. But let's face it, it's not the way it usually works. I'm right I do not feel a second class citizen. I don't feel I've ever been treated in a derogatory way by I'm lucky by anybody. but you know, it's the Okay Farage is a very, very dangerous piece of work, I believe. we saw that after Southport And he's yeah, but I mean, there's burning of the terrified people who've escaped God knows what, living in a hotel. And you know, they're basically some people trying to set fire to them. I mean, that is the state we're in. I mean to me, I am now eight year. I was born exactly one month after the World War ended in Europe So my birthday is next Monday and I'll be eighty one. And all I've heard just so distresses me that we look like we're going back to the thirties. It terrifies me. I am actually frightened I am frightened what's going to happen this election. I'm frightened what's going to happen at the proper election I am actually frightened because the forces that are on the march are not new They're not and that is what's so scary. But if you keep And why particularly I have no idea. You did the most brilliant thing on him, you know over that Brexit thing and he's never da come on your show again. But the BBC keeps having him on question time. Good alone now No, they're horrib biased against him. I don't know if you've seen the latest news because he hasn't been on desert Island diss yet. I know again, I've had to turn the radio off I can't because I can't cope with this kind of quote unbiased discussion about it. I mean It just it I'm horrified at what has gone on. And of it's not happening by accident. I think sometimes and you mentioned the war and your birth shortly, just as it ended, you mentioned that. and I think we look back on The harnessings of hatred and think that they've happened know in the darkness or they've happened secretly and they've suddenly emerged fully formed into the light and decent people sit there going, how the hell did we not notice that that was going on? But of course the opposite is true. It happens in the daylight. It happens on your radio, it happens on your television, it happens right in front of you and you don't notice how horrific it is until it's too late And those of us who do notice, those of us who do realize I suppose what you've wrong in to tell me is that you can never shut up about it, Sarah No, thank you. Shall we end on a slightly happier note? Well no, can I just say? Well I wanted to say happy birthday, but yeah quickly before it stops it's not going to work. I'll tell you what, I'll bring you back after the news because I can. It's just gone eleven o'clock, you are listening to, James O'Brien on LBC and if that's not a hook and tease, if that doesn't keep you tuned in to find out what on earth it is that Sarah still needs to get off her chest and I don't know what will on your radio On the LBC app and play LBC. Leading Britain's conversation. This is LBC. Six minutes after eleven is the time, I've often wondered about the phenomenon that sees people more angered by or more concerned about something awful happening according to the shade of the perpetrator or the victim's skin. I've always found it a really odd thing. I can listen, I'm not completely don know what word I'm looking for. I'm not completely immune to prejudice. If someone you loved was a victim of a crime committed by somebody who was here under false pretences or illegally, then of course you would feel a different form of anger at the fact that they are here at all to commit that crime would if they were hurt or killed by, someomeone they knew or somebody who could trace their family history back to the Doomsday book. But the idea that you'd be more but Rough or more grief stricken is just absurd. it's a lie. I think it's a lie at least, that is is pandered to by the kind of people we've been talking about today. But enough for me, Sarah had one more thing she wanted to say, and given that it's her birthday on Monday, it seemed only fair to let her say it. I know, I'm a very old lady then. Yeah, I'm sure I'm younger than my son at the moment. know But there you go I have had I don't pretend to be wise. I just pretnd to be well my husband, he's now dead, but I used to say. I'm quite logical And people used to come up to me and, well and have over the years and said in horror, obviously, how did Germany happen meaning the third Reich. Yes. And I used to go very easily And that is what's so scary. And what upsets me on top of everything else, I never knew my dad. He died in April as a pilot, nineteen forty five. So he died a month at twenty three years old died a month before the war ended, and I was born a month after And I think I get the impression from letters he was a lovely man and The idea that eighty years later, he died at twenty three, so a man like Farge or Nige Fwright, as I call him can come out with this garbage and that many people in this country are going to vote for him it I have to say my son and I we spend our lives screaming at the radio. I mean, he lives in London and he comes visits me. and I mean he's taking me lunch on Monday. And you know, we just rant When you see it, you can't unsee it, can you? That's the thing. When you see the patterns. I used to read out the Martin Niemiler poem about first they came for the Communist and I did not do it. And I think I used to do it a bit glibly, Sarah, if I'm honest with you. I knew it was powerful and I felt it's resonance, but I think somewhere until Donald Trump became president of the United States of America, somewhere in the back of my mind, I think I still had a sort of What you might call an inverse bigotry. I still thought, o no, my people are better than that. That could never happen here I thought I've I happened to be living with my family, with my mother remarried in America with the McCarth I was only obviously a little girl, but with the McCarthyis'm going on. And she like me, is very political. I'm afraid on the other side. And I can remember her painting the house and watching the McCarthy trials You know, when he was eventually disowned by everybody, having been idolized and made So many people terrified and lose their jobs and what have you, blacklisting, et cetera and To me, that's what's going on in America now And I'm afraid it's coming here. And it's just it's Well I can't say Gobbs. I would say speechless except I can speak about it. Yes. And because we can, we have to, I think is the. And that's why I'm grateful that you are des me. Because I turned you on. Yes. and I heard you start and I thought, oh I'm not going to hear that. you know, and I turned it over. Right, thanks And sorry about that. And they were talking about. And so I turned you back. And I have to say I thought You're being you. than God you're taking the angle you're taking because I'm not hearing it elsewhere and it just For people like me, there has to be somebody somewhere who's speaking out because we feel so lonely And yet Henry Novak's own father said on the steps of the court that he did not want people to use his boy's murder to create further division and to stoke further hatred, create further division, hatred or tension. So he offers that heartfelt plea we do not want Henry's murder to be used to create further hatred, division or tension and up pops Nigel Farage calling for all of those things. And I always feel Daveavy, that's my son, and I've discussed it many times ' more we'd rather be murdered than be the murderer and have to be the parents of that person. I mean that is can you imagine how devastating it is for every murderers, parents, sisters, brothers? must be in many ways worse for them because They're living not rightly, but I understand what you mean. I do understand what you mean is they have I mean a horrible experience that is not compounded by fatalism. They can't just sort of console themselves with the thought that it is absolutely random and fatalistic. inststead, they'd be thinking they might be responsible for I mean, listening to Henry say that he felt bad about not being there to look after, sorry He felt bad about not being there to look after his boy And and that I mean, is is Almost unbearable, the emotion contained within that thought for a parent. But if your boy was a murderer and you were and you were blaming yourself for that, I just wanted to clarify what you were driving at because I do understand it. No I don't mean obviously you No, I know you don't just I understood it and I just wanted to clarify it But that idea of not being able to protect your boy is just It's just unthinkable and unbearable Well. I know' So you've just got you pick a side. either you're with Henry's family who do not want the murder to be used to create further hatred, division or tension. Or you invite Nigel Farrage onto your television program to in create further hatred, division or tension. I mean, it is, I think that simple. and I wouldn't necessarily have worked that out for myself without the help of you and other callers, Sarah. So once again, once again, happay birthday for Monday. and I hope that David treats you to the to the slap up. A slap up feed with all the trimming Sarah, which is clearlyich richly deserved on your eighty first. and I know an awful lot of people listening to the programme join me in offering you those congratulations. And how timely as well to talk about the end of the war coinciding with your birthday and your fears of political direction in this country Having echoes in the direction that politics took in Germany as a consequence of which your father lost his life in the service of this country. coming up to quarter past eleven. I don't know if I should have hit those marks earlier saying he does not want Henry's murder to be used to create further hatred, division, or tension. It's not hard to. Is that hard for you to understand? Is that hard for anybody to understand? What did you say, Mr. Novak? Please don't use my son's murder to create further hatred, division or tension. What did Alice Gross's family say after she was murdered Please don't use this as an opportunity Talk about immigration or to turn it into a conversation about immigration Please don't use my son's murder or my daughter's murder to score cheap and often Fallacious political points need an investigation into the behavior of the police when they arrived at the scene, you'd be absolutely mad to be objecting to or opposed to that, but the idea that callalling explicitly for the murder not to be used to create further hatred, division or tension And then of course, I can turn to my invbulx,s not that much actually today, to be fair. I can't pretend that it's groaning under the weight of these hideous people who are determined to turn the murder into An opportunity to create further hatred division or tension, and that's why you have to keep calling it out Sventeen minutes after eleven is the time, please get an authoritative voice on like Cop Neil Bassu to ask about practice or similar levels a police officer or similar level police officer, rightit, Rebecca from Stratford. Well, Rebecca from Stratford, yourour wish is my command, Neil Bassu, former asssistant commommissioner at the Metropolitan Police and latterly co host of our podcast here at Global The Crime Agents, joins me now. Do I need to ask you a question or do you just want to speak as my callers have done this morning from the hip as it were Well morning, James, thanks for inviting me your I' turned down probably twenty media interviews for the sake of the family. So I caught the last interview you had. I've heard what the family have said. They're absolutely right. I mean, the fact that such a horrific incidents where they will be grieving Beyond measure, probably for the rest of their lives should be turned into a political moment has been the worst thing I've heard last night and today I couldn't bring myself to come on Andah initially And then I was sent by your producer, Nigel Farage's emergency address and I thought That cannot be allowed to stand. I'm surprised No current serving chief Cstable has come on to address that kind of language because it is inflammatory, it is extremist, it is divisive. It's everything the family didn't want I'm sure the family are reacting to it as well this is not the time for that kind of language. And as you've quite rightly said The officers who were involved in this made what everyone can see on the body worn camera and with hindsight a catastrophic error of judgment What will have happened to them in the first twenty four hours is their professional standards unit will have informed the Independent Office of Police Complaints They will have been reported and they will be being held to account. That will have been paused for the murder investigation and the trial to take place and we willll now be going ahead So they will be held to account for the mistakes they've made in responding to this and know those mistakes will' live with the family forever as well. It's a terrible thing. But it doesn't justify the commentary that we've heard from Every politician Nigel Farage, Chris Phelp I've heard others talking about it. Nick Thomas Simmons probably the only balanced view I've heard from a politician in the last twenty four hours. Let's have the inquiry. let's hold the officers to account. They will be expecting that. They know that's happening. Hampshire released the video Um We know who's responsible for this and the murderer, the monster that he is, is serving the time that he absolutely deserves. And his own family have said, and let's not make this In the way we're making these the actions of these police officers somehow the actions of Policing is a profession We shouldn't be making the actions of one Sikh boy the actions of the Sikh community. and language that has been used by people like Farage. Yet again, he did this up following Southport He's doing it again He's doing it for political It's extreme language. It's really not going to help. And is it I mean, situation the society today? I mean, I follow these things quite closely as you do. and even I've been somewhat taken aback by the new Gift Being white somehow makes you. less likely to receive full and fair policing. this phrase two tier policing, which is simultaneously meaningless and hideous. is gaining traction, which of course partly explains why people start lobbing bricks police officers when they turn up for the latest round of the farriage riots Yeah, I mean, I don't really care whether you're right or left or centrist or liberal. I mean, undermining policing, the criminal justice system in this way is a ridiculous thing for a politician who wants to govern the country, all of the country, presumably, not just the people he likes. It's a ridiculous thing to do And he's returning to an old trope that they've used before in terms of two tier policing I mean, policing gets things wrong every day, but it also gets things right every day And as Nick Tom Sivers said this morning, you know, many thousands of them marching towards danger on our behalf every day and doing the best that they can putting themselves on the line Do not need to be intduced by comments like two tier policing And of course, it's just factually incorrect. I was a detective for most of my career There's absolutely no evidence of two tier policing. If you're a black person or a brown person or any ethnic minority in the country today, you'd be quite surprised to hear that you are currently being favored by the criminal justice system, including law enforcement over whites people. The police force is ninety percent white, seventy five percent male It is very unlikely that in the three years I've been retired Policing for the first time in its two hundred years has become anti white I mean Yes Just saying that out loud sounds ridiculous. Yeah until it doesn't, I suppose, and say it loud enough and say it disingenuously enough. and some people will We'll come along with it. Can I ask? I mean, you may not be able to ask these questions, but do things like who made the nine ninety nine call metatter if the brother of the murderer made the call, claiming that his brother was the victim. Would that influence how the police responded in the first instance Yeah, I mean this is the when I talk about catastrophic errors of judgment. Any police officer going to any call has to get as much information or intelligence as they possibly can before they arrive at the call for their own safety and for their own understanding and to prepare themselves for what they face What you shouldn't let that do is cloud your judgment and give you one fixed understanding of the situation you're about to face. That does seem to be and we can see it on the body onene camera and fair play to Hampshire pololice for releasing that. There was a time when policing just simply would not do that and would not be that transparent. Well we can see it Yeah, questions have got to be asked about professional curiosity, about your ability to investigate, for your ability to take both sides of a story and make dynamic decisions as it unfolds in front of you They clearly made a catastrophic error of judgment. Would you expect the head of the Met to say something about this? I mean, it's possible that there's an interpretation of pure cold rage that doesn't involve civil disobedience or abuse of police officers or pogroms like the ones that we saw last time Farage responded to a crime committed by someomebody with dark skin. Would you expect the head of the Mat the commommissioner to comment on this? Because it may work to his favor. It adds to his ludicrous narrative of victimhood I wouldn't expect the head of the Met to be commenting on a Hampshire police investigation. But no on Farid's words, more so than on the Ampsure activities No, the thing with being a senior police officer, as I well know from my time as a senior police officer is taking on politicians in public, as Samart Rley found out with Zach Polansky. Death con one moment, you know Police officers should not be politicised in the way that Njal Farage's comments are politicising policing. Police officers themselves shouldn't go out and talk about Politicians comments in public. Politicians should be held to account by the public who elect them preferably at the ballot box But police officers could describe exactly what's happening in this case u and say that, you know, and basically, but you know support the familyil's view You know, the family's view is this is not a moment for politics This is a moment for an investigation and an inquiry to hold poor policing to account We've seen that many times before. We are getting I think we're getting better at that. I think policing is getting more transparent I think policing is getting better at apologizing and it's getting better at putting itself forward to be held to account by the public it serves And long may that be the case and long may that continue I don't think it helps for senior police officers to come out and take out politicians. I think unfortunately that's why they're relying on retired police officers like me to do that. And as Ive said, this is the single and only interview I'm doing on this. but this is just to say my thoughts are entirely With the family Ive dealt with a lot of grieving. uh victims family u victims families survivors I know that it is almost impossible to say anything that will help that family at this time. You know it is possible to make their life worse and some of these politicians, I think, are doing precisely that. Good Lord. We're grateful for your time and this is my final question. Be prompted actually by your reflections on how much policing has changed in the years since you joined the force and how things like the service itself releasing body cam footage would once have been unthinkable. Would you be confident that the IOPC investigation gets to the absolute bottom of this Unfortunately, I think the IOPC, like policing itself has got a long way to go to win back trust and confidence and it's competence and it's professionalism, but This is you know probably the latest and most high profile case it we'll have for a very long time. I would I hope that the commommissioners in charge of it are putting all of the resources into it that they possibly can because what it must be more than anything is totally professional, totally diligent and totally swift Neil Bassu, many thanks, forormer assistant commommissioner at the Metropolitan Police and co host of the rather splendid global podcast The Crime Agents, which he does with our Prime editor Andy Hughes, and just clarifying a few points there. The video is an unbearable watch I think it would be very weird to come away from that, not feeling quite anngry towards, at the very least, profoundly confused towards the police officers, particularly the one who responded to Henry's sort of cries about having been stabbed by saying, I don't think so, mate. Of course, that is both a natural and a probably inevitable response. And that is why that investigation, as Henry's family have stressed, is absolutely paramount to them He's also expressed concern that one was allowed to leave the force before she had given an account to the IOPC of what had happened. So as Neil says an awful lot on the plate of the Independent Office for Police Conduct. And you can only hope that they rise to the challenge, but what you have in addition to this horror is what Neil just described, which is the opportunistic attempts to turn it into something that it currently isn't and I guess it's a bit naive to expect or hope for better in the country that we currently inhabit. U I squeeze in one or two more calls. twenty eight minutes after eleven is the time. Margie is on the Margie is on the whirl. Margie, what would you like to say Hello, Yes, goodood morning, James I'd like to Echo. everything you've said this morning and all your callers in regards to Fomage's despicable use of this as a political point scoring an agency What happened was diabolical and that murere has got everything he deserves what I D I'm concerned about is something that Farage said in his speech, which I don't think people most people have picked up on And that's his statement about how we must get rid of DEI And I think his whole program and is to destabilise this country. in general and he's using racism. I did touch on this. I didn that. Yeah, I didn't note that part actually properly, but it does fit in with what I said about the desperation to render all allegations and accusations of racism null and void. So I mean, that would be one of the most obvious consequences of getting rid of diversity, equity and inclusion policies. First and forem mostost would be women losing rights in the workplace or any sort of hope or ambitions for parity. But second, of course would be that accusations of racism wouldn't be properly investigated. and that's what he wants Because of course this man lied, this lied about a racist insult directed at him by Henry Novak. And so what you leap from there, if you are a massive racist, is to claim that all accusations or allegations of racism are somehow bogus as well. And that would be one consequence of getting rid of diversity equity and inclusion policies byy getting rid of the EI, not only is he using that using racism as a platform for that It's People seem to think that DEI is all about And forgive me for saying this. putting the black man in a white man's job. Yes, they do. They've been encouraged to think that by people like Nichael Farreard But it's absolutely So so much more. It's in relation to, for instance, seend kids at the moment who are struggling to find suitable education, which the governments are doing diabolical things on. It is about disabled people such as myself who are facing accusations of claiming pIP, for instance, which you know they're not entitled to. It's women who face maternity leave being removed from them. thousand of one things are included with under the scope of DEI and by using racism as a platform to say it's all about a black man getting a white man's job. let's get rid of it U it's a complete Well you don't know what you've got t it's gone. You don't Yes. Any protections. Any protections from Yeah from the sort of majority rule. And listen, I'm a straight white. non disabled, heterosexual, middle class, privately educated man. I win on every front in this country. I am the least discriminated member of society imaginable But um, I guess who else is a straight white, non disabled, privately educated middle class man. Yeah, Nigel Farge, the voice of the victims. Victims like me. Don Gallis has your headlines It's twenty five to twelve, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. justust sort of quick word of thanks to you actually for holding my hand on days like today, I find some of the conversations that we're pelled have at the moment, almost unbearable a temptation to ask for a transfer and slide over to classic FM At ten o'clock in the morning is sometimes great because the news is not good, is it? It hasn't been for ten years. I used to say with a sort of wry smile and a book deal in my back pocket, It's good for business but bad for the soul Whereas now I'd give almost anything to see my country return to a place where we weren't giving enormous prominence to people who want pogroms people who provoke and incite race riots, to people who take tragedy, ignore the pleas of the grieving families involved in the tragedies and instead use them to stoke up hatred, division and all of the other things that Sarah O soon to be eighty one year old call are identified as being ancient hatred because we know where these roads can lead. and appear that knowledge is not in any way, worrying some people L mean where worries me Liz is in Cicklayade, Liz, what made you pick up the phone? Hello, James. and firstly, I want to express my Palx Condndolences to Henry's Pany. God ye you. IQ have a Henry who was attacked in two thousand seven by a group of Asian kids and young men. And I'm very lucky that my Henry survived you survived ven blows his head with a hammer. Good Lord And we too were at the center of inflammatory, racial tension and media attention. And it went on for some time and it is really what inspired me to get involved in politics after Brexit and people like Nigel Farage tried to callw Petrol on a very, very dangerous situation So it'srific it's horrific and triggering to me to hear this happening. because there's a lot of white people now listening to Nigel and feeling white is right and that they can go and rage against anyone that isn't white. And that cannot be any more dangerous because as we see with Henry When somebody is injured in this type of assault, it doesn't matter what color your skin is. It doesn't matter where you come from. It doesn't matter what your ethnicity is Everybody is at risk. if tribalism and racism is allowed to feel And you don't know who is going to be the victim. And Nigel Farage is the most irresponsible politician in Britain right now and you he had potential to do this, but he absolutely is today. and it's sickening to hear him want to pile up anger. and dangerous reality that will unfold because of his words. And we saw it with a poster ten years ago. there' the breaking point. You've done it again today. Exactly And that's what he wants to achieve. He goes around stoking grievances trying to get people angry. And the last person and the last people he's thinking about are victims. I'm one of those victims. My family have lived through this How dare he Tal exes on that and bring all of this back for me and my family and others, but also put more families at risk of racial tension and violence And our poor police officers who have to go and deal with this We're all humans. we all make mistakes. Let the authorities do what they need to do and assess what went wrong. And hold them to the highest DEI not W EEI. My son's happened because my son's attack happened because the school really didn't have any DEI. It was like going back to the nineteen seventies. And that's what Nigel wants. He wants more of this. He wants more families being pushed to the brink. And it' you know, as you can hear, I'm upset. I know you are. and I understand why. and I've been reading up on what happened to your son, Henry, who who was fifteen when he suffered three skull fractures in an attack by, as you said, a group of Asian youths in the school was found to have failed to recognize a series of racist incidents prior to his assault. And one thing occurred to me, and I hope I'm not speaking inappropriately That was in two thousand seven, Liz And if that was now then someome people would be using your tragedy for hideous political point scoreing But this is what is so awful about it. We as victims, you go through the most horrendous experience in court, notothing makes it better Nothing can make it better. Nothing can undo what was done. And people getting enraged and thinking that because they're white and we need to send everybody back actually makes it work. So don't do it. Don't listen to Nigel Farage. In fact He shouldn't be given a platform to come out and say these things. It's inherently dangerous. It's like striking a match in front of a bomfire coverred in petrol. The people at risk are the minorities now, because as white people, we're the majority, it's about fourth And when he talks about I you should be thinking about the family and what they have been through. You know they're in the early stages of grief and I can't tell you how awful a criminal justice system is. I lived through it three months of being in and listening to you know which is unthinkable for most people. you have no idea what it's like to be a victim It's horrendous My heart goes out to his family. That is what the focus should be. We should be thinking of helping that family and we should be thinking about making sure our communities are safer We really need to guard against and go around our communities, go to seek temples, work with your communities, integrate, help buildu our towns and cities and countryside to be safer don't allow Nigel to use hatred to create war because that's what it does. And I mean, these are incredibly powerful words, particularly given your personal experience. but I just want to clarify on why you talk about diversity, equality and inclusion. It's because the school that your son attended and where he was attacked had not properly dealt with an influx of British Asian pupils and tensions between them and white pupils, which is precisely the sort of programming and educational processes that a decent DEI policy in a school would have had in place. So the school would have would have been able to work better. in addressing at the summary at the time, the racist behaviour of some white pupils as well as the events that led up to the attack upon your son. It is precisely DEI policies that would and gender harmony and peace in schools like Your son Henry' es We don't know Why I mean, D Murerer felt he needed to have knives No What had he gone through? What had gone wrong for that to happen If he it have been a white and white attack Would Nichl Ferarars be standing up now and saying what he say? That'd be ridiculous, Les So I thought about this with the boys that attacked my son They children of other parents, their other families, it cost Wilttshire Twinton Millions of pounds my son's attack. and you know the ripples went through several families as well and the damage is still there today. Those kids that attacked my son are still their parents now. So these things are not sort of like, oh, we'll shove someone in a jail and it'll get better. It doesn't work like that It's just that' just the red meat that's put through the suund. And you know the various who go,, let's get everyone enraged for the day, go Oh yeah, we're right because we're white and we'll send them all homes. It isn't simple and really It needs to be understood and we should be going out today and we should be thinking of the Noak family first But we should also think about the parents of the murderer and the family there. and we should be thinking about The ethic minorities who will be terrified. You know you have violent incidents. We've had it in Swindland where the Sk temple has been set on the fire more than once where my thoughts are Go outside Please support your community. hold hands with people. It doesn't matter what color your skin is, It doesn't matter where you come from If someone sticks a knife in you, you die. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time you are at risk of dying. if these tensions allowed to build up So please today of all days Listen to me and let's love each other, not hate each other. Thank you I mean, thank you, really, is all I can say, except just to inquire after Henry and just to wonder how he's getting on these days James, I feel very guilty to say this because I'm very mindful of the Nerark family. I'm very, very lucky and I feel enormously guilty. My son is happy and living well and he's about to have his second child and we are Every day of my life I wake up and I understand how lucky we are. I send my absolute love and heartfelt thoughts Nk family. and if they want to get in touch with me, I'm here, I'm happy to help Thank you, Liz. and Liss Webster who has obviously been on this programme many times in her guise as a douty defender of farmers and farming in the aftermath of Brexit, but sharing there a personal story that speaks, I mean unbearably directly to the experiences of the Noak family Right now and of course, the decision by one politician to completely ignore this grieving father's plea But justice alone is not enough. We want to use Henry's breat heartbreaking surrey story to make change for the better We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. We want his story to make our streets safer for everyone That is why we are calling on the government to treat knife crime as the national emergency that it is eleven forty six is the time When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call one eight hundred ranger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger for the ones who get it done It's eleven forty nine. you are indeed listening to James O'Brien on LBC where the words of Peter Novak resonate through all of the conversation that we've had this morning and his It turns out somewhat futile plea for people to resist any temptation to turn his son's murder into an opportunity for division or hatred or worse and no prizes for guessing who has ignored him most publicly and most shamefully. ten to twelve is the time. Ravi is in Slow, Ravi, what would you like to say? Oh Hi James. Yeah firstirst of all I'm a seeker myself And deepest deepest condolen such dignified response from the father It makes me proud we are in this country that we have people like this gentleman whoses Tomb was brutally murdered and yet So much so much dignity and dignification in the way he presented himself And Nigel Farj, I mean he's divided a country. he's divided Europe, he's divided communities He sits back but he likes to match his millionaire lifestyle. and my appeal today is to everyone listening to Nigel Farage This is not a leader we want. We want we don't want a leader that divides communities, undermines the country when we are struggling on crime from economic damage everything. You name it, We're struggling for me. and this is not the leadership. And Nigel Farage has all been a vile snake and'm very I'm ashamed of my fellow seiks that will ever join parties like I in Asia because This guy has used this opportunity. who the father of Henry spoken so well, so so much passion and passion for his community, for his country for that he doesn't want to raace to be a related issue. know he wants the police to be brought to book and like we all do. I think we know it's terrible. What happened is horrible to him and people like Farud using at every opportunity. Imagine him being our so called leader in this country who admires Inner Powell, who admires Trump who admires people who are absolute vile creating genocides and wanting genocides This is not an answer. This is not to reivide the whites from the browns and the blacks This is we need unity in a time of time of our need in a country when statemanships you require, not politicians. Politicians like Nigel Farard will use every opportunity because they have no soul, they have no real love for the country which other person, individual, politician would like to imagine and throw at the country to burn and ask and call for violence and call for community to go against each other you know, cause rise and mayhem, no politician, no potential leader would ever do that. Wow. I mean, I'd obviously agree with you. and I'd stress again, feeling absolute fury towards the perpetrator of this crime is Absolutely. Not only justified, but probably healthy, although some people have deeper reserves of compassion and charity than I do. I'd personally throw away the metaphorical key, but it's the conflation, isn't it? It's the leap From the hideous actions of one person, aided and abetted by his mother to the attempts to sort of turn it into a narrative of victimhood for white people and an attack upon all, essentially brown people. That's where the narrative of immigration, his narrative of immigration takes us. Can I what is because I've been meaning to dig into this a bit personally. What is it about Sikhism that why do I see turbans on some of Tommy Robinson's marches and seeks quite well represented sometimes in Nigel Farage's ranks went to an outsider possessed of reserves of white privilege, it's obvious to me that just because they're going mostly after Muslims today, it doesn't mean they won't go after Sikh tomorrow I mean, can I answer that? Yeah, that's why I ask. Okay, can tell you, I can tell you straight away, I wasn't sure if I'm so long sorry. Yeah yeah you. Most of it's a minority of the Siks And those who joined Nigel Farge are Islamophopes Right Isam for exam. My enemy's enemy is my friend. So basically, we as stand with anybody who's struggling. It doesn't matter. We stand with ourother and Muslim brothers and sisters when they've been ted for the last several years especially when they raise the issue for Gaza, they get arrested, they got pushed, they got prosecuted And that is the targeting Muslim communities And those same Sikhs now who are on the far right have very hard time to defend when now we will be targeted. And it's like you said you know, they came for them, then they come for us, but we somehow have a lost few people in our community who joined the far right to express their Islamophobia. That's all it. We as Sikh, majority of the Sikhs, I know I work around the world in refugee camps We work in Britain in disasters We get along with everyone. We do not judge people by their race face, religion I have nothing but respect for any faith and I feel so sad when my Muslim presidenciss are protesting by Gaza And suddenly every right wing press are individual laten and terrorist and now our to be leabelleled. And this year I want people who joined Tommy Robinson Farrage to come out and walk away in solidarity country To make the country great again, we need solidarity. Solidarity needs to come from every quarter, including us So it is not it is not one community against the other ideology that people are following's not a sequ or cult ideology. It's a racist ideology. And it's not enough to hope that other people will will fight that other people will resist it. mean, it's not enough to hope that it burns itself out or, no, no. we need toively we need to be actively all involved, all the leadership from all communities. Sometimes we just talk the talk, we don't walk in. know we need to understand challenge Challenge I hate This is why it's not a black, white, yellow thing. This is a country that's always welc on people from or outside immigrants, immigration. We' built on immigration is not the type now. When I was I was shocked when night was by this morning. He talked about the murder in like a black and white way. Then he went turned on immigration. And then he started blaming immigration in the same sentence. I mean, how does that happen? So he's waiting for something to happen? I know how it happens, but of course what it does to some of the people that you've talked about who have allowed their hatred of Islam to blind them to the activities of some people who hate them It's that old line that comes up quite a lot on the pro where I don't mean you So if I'm a seat going along to one of Stephven Yaxley Lennon's hate fests or signing up for one of Nigel Farag's many political parties. And I'm hearing, o, I don't mean you When I talk about immigration, or when I talk about Asian people or when I talk about brown skinned people, I don't mean you, you're all right. And then on a day like today, that that A plaster getsrn off, doesn't it? He may go back tomorrow to put Oh no, I don't mean you, Ravy, you're all right. I mean But actually they always mean you. of course they mean. James James, I worked in a factory as a school kid to earn some money. I remember that raw racism right. And this lady would pick on me so much And there another guy racist guy so mild racist and he would even stop us saying stop. It was so raw. I never thought. We're going back that time. I'm fifty six now and we're going backwards in this country. It is the responsibility of every individual to challenge people like Farad or we will never be great again What's the name of the organization you do your good work with Oh so Clar Aid. You know you Oh they say. You're famous, man. Paul just messaged to say, Ohh my Godd it's Ravvi from Cla Aid. What a privilege We work with refugees from Iran, We working in Lebanon, we work in Syrian refugees. We got aid into Gaza, we work in Efrica for the water, working in Punjab for the floods We work in the UK for the flood Somerset, you Yorkshire in the last years. We believe everyone's a human being. No matter who you are, we judge you by your actions, not by your race, religion And CASAid is an organization that's funded by everyvery sort like Sikh in the community almost and every woman non Sikh as well. we just get on with the work. But I do believe My work fifty percent is talking about how we can all get along together, especially now in Gaza. I talk openly about what's going on. You get canceled the place you don't get canceled But If you don't talk about places like Gaza or oppression, we're not see. we have to also address anyywhere there's oppression, injustice we speak of. O ters are unique for that reason. That's why we're ashamed of people like Vkram who who stabbed this unarmed eighteen year old innocent lad. and watched and lied to the police those three minutes while he's being handcuffed and dying And that is the most cowardly way for any to bring shame on us There's no warriorurism in that. There's no compassion in that. that guy is an individual doesn't represent us He represents a form of ideology or thought process which is far from the Sh And you're too modest to mention that you got a Nobel Peace Prize nomination in twenty twenty one Oh, thank you very much. Don't tell Donald. Don't tell Donald whatever you do,. Oh my God going over Ravi talk more one day. I would really like that. and I will make sure that it happens, Ravi. It is as Paul said, a privilege to listen to you actually, and a message that is Pretty close to urgent at the moment, coming from the very very heart of the ST community, Revinda Singh there, the founder and CEO of CultA Aid international I I just sharing truths on a level that we're quite privileged to have witnessed. In fact, quite a few callers today, Liz Webster talking about her son, Henry being attacked back in two thousand seven, in an atmosphere of racism by Asian students at the school he attended, reminding us that events like that become less likely to happen when you have diversity equality and inclusion policies in place, listening to Sarah who celebrates eight first birthday on Monday talking about losing her father, the father she never met because he died a month before the end of the Second World War as a pilot and she was born a month later and reminding us that the path to the places that were visited in nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, Germany is extremely well troed On your radio On the LBC app and play LBC. Leading Britain's conversation. This is LBC Four minutes after twelve is the time. This is a little bit too good to be true. Would you like a quick missing word round picks up on a theme that is dominating my inbox this morning, but I wonder if you can work out what the missing word actually is. Too much time with blanks Too much time with blank can put your mental health at risk What could that be Too much states are plural, so too much time with blanks. can put your mental health at risk. What might that be? And listening to the news bulletin there and Sadi Khan's change of mind, I think on the social media band for under sixteen. I should tell you that we're having an event tomorrow at the O two, not that one. So Id play the O two regularly But don't not that one. There's a little room around the corner. Is it called the indndigo? the O two Indigo? It's a smaller, much, much, much smaller One day One day I'll play I think I went on stage at the Big O two once with an adoption charity, but for some reason it's lost in the mists of my memory Anyway, we have a sort of annual audit of the mayor of London and his team at the ero two and it is tomorrow night. So if you want to come along to that or get a question asked or submit, then head over to the LBC website where you will be able to find more details. reallyally nice to end that conversation with Ravi, clearly a force for good. I'm just reading up about him. His good works were so widely recognized. He even turned up on surprise, surprise with Sya Black to get a new car and holiday as a mark of gratitude for work that his charity did during the floods in Somerset some years ago. So I've been certainly keen to talk to him more and quite possibly as a lot of you have suggested Gutting him on on full disclosure even. He's got certainly got an incredible story to tell. My guest on full disclosure this week is Russell T. Davis, who has written an extraordinary new drama, that broadcast that premiered on Sunday night. and indeed last night on channel four called Tipto, which I can't recommend highly enough if you want to have a sort of companion piece to the conversations that we've been having all morning in a dramatic sense, turning those tides of hatred that Sarah identified and Liz warned about and Ravi works to fight against, turnurning those tides of hatred into drama as only a writer of the quality of Russell T. Davis can do U I'd heartily recommend that as well Change of pace now and Simon Martz will be with us this hour for an update on all manner of Matters American. The Trump juggernaut has been out of control for years, but we still have to try to keep track of the damage that it does as it careers all over the metaphorical highway. But here's a headline that you won't be seeing. in many newspapers today Speaking of which, should we just take a minute to see what page the Daily Mail put the story about the Rwanda money not being payable to the Rwandan government. seven hundred million quQid, the governments that the Daily Mail helped to install wasted on a scheme that was That saw precisely no but it makes Boris Johnson's bridge over the River Thames look like a bargain, doesn't it? Tens of millions of pounds spent there without a single brick ever being laid. Hundreds of millions of pounds spent by the Daily Mail's favorite politicians, two of whom currently have columns in the newspaper, without a single person ever a single failed asylum seeker ever being removed from the country. and the thing they got very excited about was the idea that a labour government would have to pay a hundred million pounds to get itself out of the deal that the previous Cervative governments had signed. So I told you it wouldn't be on the front page And I was right And it's not on page two either. It would be on page one if it had gone the other way. You can be absolutely certain of that A story about Keiche on page three onn page five we've got that hideous example of Incitement, I suppose, when they have inserted the word seek into the words of of Henry Novak's father who did not use the word seat In fact, I can't I probably should have gone in harder than that, shouldn't we? I can't believe that. G that clip ready again, would you? just play that clip again of Peter Novak talking about what he wants to happen next in this case and focus on the middle bit of these comments because they're the important bit But justice alone is not enough We want to use Henry's breat heartbreaking sury story to make change for the better We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension We want his story to make our streets safer for everyone. That is why we are calling on the government to treat knife crime as the national emergency that it is With those words ringing in their ears, some people at the Daily Mail yesterday decided to insert the word seek into Peter Novak's comments Police dragged our son across gravel, handcuffed him and left him to die, then treated his sk murderer with decency which is not a word that Peter No over used And you wouldn't expect him to, either, would you? Be he has made it clear that he doesn't want his son's murder to be used to spread division hatred Well attention. So that's page five U page six and seven of the Mandelsen files, which are a bit of a wet blanket in the end, unfortunately, I was quite looking forward to getting stuck into those, but we'd seen it all before page ten. There you go. No payout to Rwanda. So it just gets a couple of paragraphs On the left hand facing page on page ten of the Daily Mail, when it would be all over page one if um, the story had gone the other way. to me next about net zero. because here's another story that you won't be seeing in newspapers anytime soon More than a million jobs, higher wages, nearly half a trillion pounds in investment in the pipeline, and the UK's green economy is powering ahead according to research by the country's leading business organization. The net zero economy, which is worth more than one hundred billion pounds a year, benefits all of the UK. what sort of lefty sandal wearing moosely munching armpair here, knitting eco warrior, environmentalist just stop oil, ludicrous rose tinted fool has come out with this stuff It's the CBI It's CBI Economics. It's the country's leading business organization who've undertaken analysis commissioned by the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit thinkink tank I'm going to say that again because listen, I do this for a living. and I didn't know this. I mean, I don't think that's an embarrassing admission because Um Obviously, they didn't know it either but there are more than a million jobs Higher wages and nearly half a trillion pounds in investment in the pipeline as the UK's green economy powers ahead. this I stress according to the CBI Net zero workers enjoy higher wages. I don't know if that's going to help lads. about eleven percent higher than the national average of thirty nine thousand pounds. The chief economist for the CBI said Clean power and decarbonization are already a significant and growing part of the UK's industrial base. Across energy, manufacturing, services and supply chains, the UK has the expertise to build on this strength and capture even greater commercial opportunities. There's about four hundred fifty five billion pounds of potential investment in energy infrastructure in the pipeline, according to the same research. And the government's target of decarbonizing the UK's electricity by twenty thirty has spurred all of these developments. This alongside the determination or at least the ambition to reach net zero to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in the near term to net zero by twenty fifty. There's more, right? Each worker In the net zero economy generates nearly one hundred twenty thousand pounds a year for the wider economy. That's about one and point a half times the national average for adding value at a time when the UK is struggling with low productivity. And there are currently about twenty two thousand small businesses around the UK engaged in activities based on the push to cut greenhouse gas emissions and boost renewable energy, according to the report Listen, net zero is Brexit two point zero. About that you should have absolutely no doubt. People who almost revel in their ignorance, a strength of opinion coupled with an absolute absence of knowledge and understanding but for reasons that are still quite hard to work out, remain perceived in the British media as an equal and opposite force to the people who know exactly what they're talking about and base all of their opinions on evidence and knowledge, evidence and facts. You saw it with Brexit on an almost unbelievable scale. You are seeing it again with Net zero. And listen, this isn't even a right left divide, although I suppose describing Tony Blair as left wing these days even vaguely is going to take a bit of a leap. But Tony Blair also attacking Net Zero and Ed Milliband while bigging up AI and taking hundreds of millions of dollars a year from a bloke whose fortune is in part built upon his investments in AI It's just an extraordinary coincidence. justust like the five million quid turning up secretly in Nigel Farag's current account shortly before he announced that he would introduce policies as Prime Minister that would make crypto billionaires or stable coin billionaires even richer than they are already. Here's what I want you to tell me. I don't know enough about this And that is a recurring theme when we turn our attentions to matters environment I want to know How we stop net zero becoming Brexit two point zero Ohzero three, four, five, sixzero six zero nine seven three What is why why? and actually let's let's dig into the weeds a bit. Let's start a little bit earlier Why is N zero So going to use that dreadful word and I hope that know that it doesn't matter in this context or this conversation. Why is it so divisive? I played you some clips of Richard Tice yesterday, who is one of Nigel Farage's donors rewarded with a job in the party. They all are really. I think that Zia Yusuf is a donor as well. Did you have to give I mean thirty P's probably not got much cash to donate to the party, has he? But anyway, you give money to the party, not to Farrage himselfs secret billionaire. arrangement, but you give some money to the party, you get a job. It seems like a perfectly transparent operation to me. And Tice is one of the great spepeak out against net zero despite advertising on a frankly industrial scale that he understands absolutely nothing about it. So that's my question to you. How do we stop net zero Why would we not celebrate such good news If you know more about this subject than I do, which I'm not going to lie to you, wouldn't be hard. are the most frustrating elements of this conversation, the most frustrating elements of this debate. Why would we not celebrate A growing green economy that's worth more than one hundred billion pounds a year and currently benefits the entire country and accounts for more than a million jobs It's genuinely Boggling. mind boggling, right A hundred billion pounds a year More than a million jobs D driving growth at a greater rate than any other sector and good for the entire country How do we stop them, the usual suspects turning net zero? into another Brexit, that. e. persuading a population to use its political power to vote against its own interests and instead in the interests of wealth. That's the question I've got for you. So it's in three parts. Number one, why is this not being celebrated? More? three four five sixz sixzero nine seven three Why do you think the subject is in danger of becoming another Brexit? Why is Net Zero in danger of becoming another Brexit? I'll take any answer you've got to that question And then crucially, How do we stop it from happening How do we stop Net zero from being turned into another example by the same people of how to persuade ordinary people to vote against their own interests in the protection of wealth. In this case, wealth that is derived almost exclusively from I Fossil fuels. there's something very project fear. about the desire for oil and gas So I want your answers to all or any of those questions on zero three four five, six zero six zer nine seven three It is nineteen minutes after twelve and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where it is I mean to me at least as someone who Still marvels at the idiocy of Brexit. It's extraordinary to me that it's almost exactly the same people deploying almost exactly the same arguments to attack that zero. And listen, forgive the pun, but it's not a zero sum game. There might be some things being done in the name of environmentalism that are less than perfect or shouldn't be done at all, just as the European Union is not a perfect institution and some of the things that it did or some of the things done in its name would have been better had they not been done at all Pk Park the um letting the perfect be the enemy of the good or the idea that there is nothing to criticize about Net Zero or indeed about the European Union and focus instead upon the obvious benefits of a policy that would reduce our dependency on fossil fuels and replace it with a dependency on stuff that's really, really cheap. Once you've done the spending and the investing in the infrastructure, the waves, the wind, the sun, they don't have to get dug out of the ground and you don't have to pay a massive premium to whoever's digging them out of the ground every time you want to use them. In fact, Chris put it rather brilliantly in a message that I've already Um I've already lost. here it is. Now Charlie, not Chris, Net zero keeps money in my pocket rather than transferring it to billionaires. So there will be some simplistic answers to these questions, but I also want the informed ones, the slightly more complicated ones, the ones that Elude me because I can't add a fourth question to the list, which would be something along the lines of whyy does a relatively well informed and engaged individual like me not feel the net zero story in the way that I feel other stories. Were we the same with Brexit? Were we exactly the same with Brexit? Did we notot realized what a disaster that we were storing up until it was too late. orr we were powerless in the face of people telling lies or people misrepresenting the fact. and it was only when the tide went out that you got to see who had their chunks on. All of the claims about laws that we have to obey or money that we would somehow save or profit from And it was only after we had allowed ourselves to be persuaded that leaving would be a good idea that we began to see in full technicolor and crystal clarity What a ludicrous idea it was. So we call off net zero or we allow politicians who are going to cancel net zero, ignore the fact that it currently funds a million jobs with higher than average wages and is expecting nearly half a trillion pounds in investment in a country that's desperate for growth Every job in the sector creates about fifty percent more growth than a job in any other sector, we allow the same vandals and arsonists to torch net zero and only fifty years down the line did we realize what a terrible mistake that we've made? Why Why is it being turned into another football? How do we stop it from becoming another Brexit? And if you follow this stuff more closely than I do, What am I missing what is actually going on that explains why a story of unalloyed good news is not on every front page and being celebrated from here to Kingdom come. Ross is in Batsey, Ross, what would you like to say Afternoon, James at EML I'm very well, mate. What's on your m I think the biggest thing with Net Zero is that people in places like where I'm from Doncaster and Sheffield and Rothotherham don't feel like it's going to benefit them They feel like it's going to be something that you know, give someone living in Si a nice soar solar planet ' be all love. The people in Sury I interrupt you before you've even drawn breath, The people in Surrey never stopp complaining about the possibility of solar farms being planted on their doorsteps. But that's a detail. Tell me more about how something that is designed to make energy much, much cheaper wouldn't resonate in areas that you describe How can it not? thisis perception. and I think it's say it was the biggest mistake in my life because I b was upset Oh boy, the phone linees gone fun. We're just going to try and sort your phone line out. We'll get back to you shortly, I promise, but He's right, actually it's all very well made picking holves in his theory, but obviously people who are going to benefit from Net zero are persuaded that it's not is it a class thing that it's not for them? It's all sort of middle class mussely munchers who get exercised and excited about this sort of thing. and therefore, when populist politicians come along with their snake oil and their lies, they're going to be able to persuade people to act against their own interests just as they did in the run up to the Brexit referendum. I mean, it maybe it's a really easy question to answer and the tactics are absolutely identical. but these jobs are not going to be confined to the southeast. These jobs are not going to be confined to and far from it, in fact,' going to be confined to The people that Ross is talking about, why are the benefits not more widely understood and widely advertised Gunham's in Manchester, Gunnam, what would you like to say But to I'm no expert. No am I. You're in good company.. So I was thinking that there's some fantastic stuff British universities are doing now around research around net zero and green technology. And there's so much work for example, the adoption of existing housing to make them more energy efficient. So there must be some work there if we can convert that issue problem to an industrial strategy. There's some fantastic work that Rolls Royce, a British company has done around modular nuclear reactors And I always thought about, you know, if you can make a nuclear sub, you know, put a nuclear reactor on a submarine, why can't you do? it's a small town or a medium sized town? And things like that being done, but there's not enough talk about it and there's not enough translation from that to actually having the first or the second or the third nuclear reactor. 've got if I've got a complaint and I'll come on to why we don't celebrate. If I've got a complaint with labor, I'd say they're not linking all of that. y well thought out policy driven industrial strategy that ties it with college training I think they are, you see. I mean, maybe not the second bit, but I mean this is a massive success story, Gunnam, and you and I are both talking about it as if it's a missed opportunity But more than a million jobs go and count them More than a million jobs, higher wages, nearly half a trillion pounds in investment in the pipeline. And your average British punter is going to think either that it's all a bit of signifying nothing or that it's not something that they should be interested in or celebrate I'm not arguing it's a missed opportunity. I'm worried it bec become more of a missed opportunity. I absolutely accept what you say. Now here's my problem with If you like the British public. How long have you go? Right? No Well, it's going to be quick. We love fact that we revel in the fact that we don't know anything sometimes. Do you think so? Yeah, and we just buy any old so you get a drill baby drill type line, which could be a slogan from wrestling and it excuses people from the business of thinking But yes, and you can get snake oil from the great snake oil charmer himself or you will buy that rubbish all day long with Brexit and very quickly linking it to that. There was so much rubbish that was given out. And then afterwards people went, Oh, we were lied to. Nobody took you these guysu that voted I was a, you know, hands, you know, hands up remainer. And that's the other thing. I mean, I think again, one of the reasons I was remain comp de bos because If we were going to start building electric or if we were going to start importing lots of electric cars, why not have something that we could bring to places like Thunderleen and other places where we would assemble. At least that would still mean work. know, So it's just got to drive the process harder and make sure that Britain gets something out of it rather than know trash it all are I mean, this is you're speaking at slightly cross purposes because the message that the people should be getting is that three hundred eight thousand people are employed directly in businesses such as solar panel installation, home installation, wind turbine manufacturing and electric vehicles. Your average consumer of British media is not going to believe that one point one million jobs depend upon The net zero policies that Ed Millibandon and others have introduced or not introduced. They've been around a while. Even Boris Johson was pro net zero. So what are the biggest obstacles? I The obvious answer is that money is going to be transferred from the pockets of the super rich into the rest of us. But what are the biggest obstacles to spreading the word?? Yeah, W Johnson, didn't he say a wind turbine couldn't blow there was something off a rice pudding or the skin off a rice pudding or something. he was always a flip flopper I know I agree noobody's looking at the fact that the people that are shouting this net zero, net stupid rubbish are funded and have a vested interest you know, I mean but maybe it's to do with communication. I don't have an answer. I apologize. I don't have don't have don't have you don't have to apologize. Why we can't get that message across But' what we're doing. That's what we're having a conversation about. So I can sit here and shout the odds. A guardian can report it. Is it worth having a look to see where else this has even been reported? I suspect the BBC will have done it, But what is the Daily Telegraph going to do with a story? The German owned Daily Telegraph going to do with a story that is not only reporting fantastic results, net zero policies, but also pointing the way towards the desirability of having lots more. We' got Ross's line fixed in Batter Ses. we willll go back to him after the news headlines. I won't squeeze you in to the minute or so that remains. After that, of course, there's plenty of room for you. We've got Simon Marks on standby. you'll be popping in before the end of the program. and I have, of course the answer to the missing world round for you as well, which is a little bit close to the bone this morning. I cannot lie. Too much time with blanks put your mental health at risk So shall I give you a little clue? Okay It is relevant the answer to this missing word round. It's relevant to a lot of the comments in my inbox this morning A lot of the more measured still critical comments in my inbox this morning T much time with blanks and put your mental health at risk. Don't let me forget to give you the answer to that. Um Immediately after the very latest headlines with Matt Hewitt When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant You keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Granger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place, so nothing gets in the way of getting the job done Call one eight hundred Ganger, click ranger. com or just stop by Ranger. for the ones who get it done twelve thirty two is the time. It does appeal to some of the same impulses, but I want to pin down precisely what they are. Why does net zero look like becoming Brexit two point zero Ordinary people, dreadful phrase, but we are mostly ordinary people are being persuaded to act against their own interests by malevolent or greedy or just opportunistic players becausecause guess what? The green economy is worth more than a hundred billion pounds a year, funds more than a million jobs, produces higher wages and is powering growth on a scale that no other sector and So much so that about half a trillion pounds in investment is in the pipeline. So why is it even a political hot twelve thirty three is the time Before that, I can answer the missing Wd round. Are you ready for this? It's quite a good one I don't think anybody's got it right, although some of you came close T it's definitely not O'Brien's Miko in Finland on the Toku Achipelago. toooo much time with O'Briens's can spend can put your mental health at risk The correct answer like for it Coeagues T much time with colleagues can put your mental health at risk I'm saying nothing. Back to Ross, who's inbatassey to steer us back to the net zero question and the fact that for people, I mean I don't think you necessarily need a geographical depiction, but that's where you went that people in Doncaster And should we say post industrial areas don't see net zero as being of benefit to them. Many of whom of course we will still be looking at somewhat wistfully at the era of industrialization when their communities felt and largely were better off. Afternoon, James sorry about the signal.'s not your phault Yeah, so geographic location doesn't really matter, but the places like Doncas, like you said, post industrial places feel like a lot of government projects are essentially aimed at the already affluent areas. HS two is a prime example. We were told there's going to this great train system connecting the North and London. and then it turned out the North wasn't even going to get a look in. People like that look at it and just think, you know, it we're going to get promised everything and then we'll get nothing in the end So how do you change that? I mean, first thing I'd say to them is your energy bills will come down And that's actually what I was going to go on to. The second part of it is, yes, we need to decouple energy bills from the price of gas. That has to be the priority for the government that you need to directly show people that clean energy, green energy, whatever you want to call it, is cheaper. So if people switch to a clean energy provider, it will be directly cheaper rather than the same price and they've just got told, Hey, you've saved a few trees. Y and I think We need a total political transition. We need to ban corporate donations to political parties tomorrow It it doesn't matter if they're the Green Party, the Lberal Democrats, Labor, whoever, they shouldn't be taking any corporate money and it should be publicly funded because you wouldn't get this level of light for art corporate oil companies donating to somebody who's just going to go out there and say It's not just him on this one. I think he's the only one that takes millions and pounds in secret from foreign based billionaires, but all the actual political parties take money from business. It might be a little bit naive. It's a A healthy ambition, some form of level playing field, but it might be a little bit naive to sort of cut off that funding immediately. I mean, and what if the funding was coming from net zero businesses who are keen to persuade governments to do more net zero. even then you'd have to you'd have to take the rough with smooth, wouldn't you? You' have to take it both ways You have to take the roough with the sned. So cl whether they're net zero companies, oil companies, military defense contractors, nobody should be donating to political ties because it swways them. It's just bribery. So you've got people like you Richard Tice going around saying, I don't know anything about net zero, but I don't like it. That's not fair. He was asked the other day to provide a list of scientists that had advised him that there was no such thing as climate change. and he provided this brilliant answer your view on climate science, which is that thousands of scientists disagree that net zero is not the way to tackle climate change. Who are the scientists who are advising you on that ar Can you name any the thousands of scientists? I've got lots of people who adviseed me. I don't list all my private advisers with regard to anything, whether it's net zero, whether it's housing policy, whether it's industrial policy, you know, people who advise me from all different sides who are coming at me from all different angles, very often opposing and that's great because that's how you listen and learn. Um That's who we are. There you go. You take that back, Ross. He knows exactly what he's talking about and provided a long list of experts there who support his position No I totally take it backformed individual on the subject.es't I think we need to move towards, I don't think a Chinese style political system, but a an expert led system like they do. China has just built the biggest solar plant in the world. And right now they're seeing six I think the average was about six point nine gigawatts per day was the estimation about six billion a year, I think they said But they're seeing all these benefits on top of the power generation. They're seeing soil underneath the solar plants is getting healthier. There's moisture trapped there so that they're seeing a regeneration of that area in China are a wonderful wonderfulple because they are having their cake and eating it at little. They're leading the world in net zero pursuits, but they're also burning fossil fuels at a scale no other country can really compete with. still. But they know what the future looks like. so they're kind of filling their boots in the current climate, but preparing for the next chapter of humanity with more efficiency and more investment than any other country on the planet They see what like said, they see what the future is. They're recognizing that in the present they have to do X, andZ to improve the conditions of their people, which they've done in the past thirty years. I've spent two months in China. They're living in twenty seventy compared to us. But if we are to you know unless they want to complain about the government or something like that, I mean let's not get too roast tinted about it Oh no, no, my partner's Chinese. she's not roast into the bat all. H Her family aren't one hundred percent prod of the government. But their government is willing to make these long term decisions that when you're bought out by corporate interests, you're never going to make. You're going to think how do I boost? I unfortunately equally, you're never going to be able to make them when you've got an electoral cycle that puts you up for renewal every four or five years. So that's why the brief moment when it looked like there was consensus on this across the political divide probably should have got a little bit more fanfare and a little bit more celebration than it did receive. Speaking of which, why does the news today not get more celebration and more fanfare Imagine if it was the other way around, if it turned out that the green economy on Net Zero had lost us a million jobs, brought down wages, and seen half a trillion pounds in investment move out of this country and end up somewhere else. In fact, it's the opposite. It's created more than a million jobs, It's producing higher wages, and there's nearly half a trillion pounds of investment currently in the pipeline H due to a sector that is currently worth more than one hundred billion pounds a year But of course, there are lots of people who would explain why none of this is true. It's just that Richard Ty can't tell you he can't tell you. He can't expect him to tell you who his advisors are or indeed what the advice is. You just can't let me stop it. Stop me so mean. Just becausecause he claimed something doesn't mean he should have to back it up or prove it or explain it. That's just not the way things work. Thank you Ros. Simon's in Tness. Simon, what would you like to say? Hello James. I'm to speak with you It's bit early to say that. It might turn out to be one of the worst decisions of your life, Simon. Carry on. I'm an optimist. I first started listening to you just before Brexit and I'm glad you drew the parallel with Brexit because we've got a similar situation here We're allowing corporate interest to shape the public conversation. And the government is shying away from briefing the public on the very real threats and severe threats to British society in the near term, not in the distant future People are very unaware of it. So I'm the co founder of the National Emergency Briefing and we did a big event in London last year where we had actual experts briefing policians and influential people and we've now made a film featuring Chris Packham called The People's Emergency Briefing being screened by community groups and churches and workplaces and all sorts all over the country. And it's about briefing people. And what we're finding is that people just don't realize the effects that are coming, the threats to food supply, the threats to health and national security. we had a general speaking there And yeah, I mean so and these are people even people who are sort of quite familiar with this subject reported that they, wow, I've never heard this all in one place the whole connected story, but also the great opportunity if we take genuine emergency action. And that's what we're not doing at the moment. Now We've allowed the media narrative to manage to sort of create this idea that we're doing lots of stuff on net zero and it's costing lots of money. But when you actually look at the emissions by sector, it's pretty much only electricity emissions that are coming down and some industrial emissions Housing, transport, agriculture and waste are all pretty much flatlining. with' nothing much going on L you walk into your local town, look around. There's no sign that there's an emergency. There's no You'd expect to see roads of scaffolding down whole streets with houses being retrofit all at once super efficient, you know, he is's' happening anywhere. There are a few test cases as far as I'm aware with forward thinking councils who are trying I meant internationally. I meant internationally more than domestically actually. I mean I mean what country would be the absolute Paragon of net zero pursuit Well, I don't well, I may be wrong, but I don't think there is one Be none of them are immune to the forces that oppose you, are they? None No country is going to be immune to the dark money behind the fossil fuel industry. Absolutely. But why shouldn't it be us that does it? wouldouldn't there be a beautiful symmety in the country that sort of sparked the industrial revolution to be the one that showed that it is possible for a major nation to sort of reach these the sort of higher ground of a post fossil fuel future where people have clean air sort of insulated homes with massively reduced bills, expanded is it simple? it I mean, Germany is aiming for twenty forty five. So other countries, but again, I mean, if somebody like you turned up and went over the books, it may turn out that some of stuff they celebrate shouldn't be celebrated at all I suppose as a I'm not a neutrual. I know you're right But I'm sitting here this morning, essentially wondering why the good news that the CBI has produced today is not being more widely celebrated. And you're kind of saying Well, it shouldn't be because they're not going anywhere near far enough, and there's a little bit of me that sort of throws his arms up in the air at this point and disengages entirely from the conversation. Have you got I mean, you know you understand what I mean? I almost ask you thenough, haveave you got anything nice to say about what is currently happening? but that doesn't seem like an entirely fair question? No, no, abbsolutely. I mean, it's great what the government is doing some really good stuff, but it's just not doing it fast enough or in a widespread enough way. and there are certain people in the government who are really pushing it There are other forces holding it back. And there's a treasury wants everything cl within business as usual. They don't want too much spending to be going on. They don't want to bother people with it. Now what we're calling for is for the government to do a televised emergency briefing, like with COVID. The independent experts setting out like the threats, but also these big opportunities. because if we really go for it, we can make life better for so many people and fast. and that's the best way to insulate ourselves from from right wing populism, because then people will understand that these Politicians who are taking large percentages of their donations from the fossil fuel industry are not their friends. They're actually threatening our very society. and that the benefits that we could have if we confronted this and switched into like wartime scale mode and move really fast. know, twenty forty five is way way too late we could have those and people could start to become better off before the next election Gh. So I mean this is tying in with what Ross was saying about people need to feel for good or for ill. we're We're a simple species. peopleople need to feel a personal benefit to the policies. Yes, totally. We've got to move fastter on it. And what I would say is that please do go and watch that you can go to our website anybriefing. org And look at our interactive map you can find a screening near you. there are one thousand three hundred already on the map. And James, we'd love you to come along to one because I'd like you know Thank you. I'll drop you some details. Nice one. I look forward to, and I'll meet you there. twelve forty six is the time. Thankk you. Simon Aldridge the co founder of National Emergency Briefing. And you have that sense. I've said it before that some people are seeing what is on the horizon and some people are denying that it's there. and the rest of us because I'm in the middle category here are sort of We're like spectators at Wimbledon sometimes. My instincts tell me not to trust the people that brought us Brexit, and it is almost to a man and woman, the same people who are now opposing that zero. but I didn't have Pone. of why Brexit was a stupid idea until after it had happened. And I don't know whether that was my fault or just somehow the nature of a debate when it is conducted between two conflicting sides, one of which uses exclusively rhetoric emotions and lies, and the other one that is left using evidence Knowledge and science. twelve forty six is the time He, It's Tom for nine, you're listen to James O'Bri on LBC. This from Tom spepeaks for many today. I've had to pause your show. so I'm about forty minutes behind James, but holy mooly, cans of cannoli The callerts you've had today have been insanely brilliant. What an amazing treatment of such an awful subject. and I couldn't agree more, actually. I was very blessed. We were very blessed with some extraordinary contributions as well Discussing the murder of Henry Novak and the hideous attempts to make political capital out of it, sadly they will almost so well, they will most definitely continue ten to one is the time Simon Marks is here. his first visit of the week. It's hard to know where to start. Shall we start with the good news his house Donald Trump's health reports are in and it turns out he's practically an avenger He's a lion of a man, James. I everybody. An absolute lion of a man. I mean that is the view of none other than the White House physician. And President Trump has spent now, what are we? four days consistently celebrating it. I see late last night before he went to bed at eleven o'clock in the evening He retweeted on his social media platform, an article from a very pro Trump website, Just The News headlined, Trump scores thirty out of thirty on cognitive assessment looks fourteen years younger than he is, according to the outcome of that physical examination that was conducted last week at Walter Reid military medical center just outside Washington, and the president over the weekend in It was even by local standards, a what they refer to here as a high volume posting weekend on the president's social media account, was obsessed with it. I mean, at one point he took to his social media platform to say, unlike other US presidents, none of whom have ever taken an approved high difficulty cognitive test I scored a perfect thirty out of thirty, considered extreme intelligence. And just in case everybody had missed the point, he also went on to observe, This is my fourth such test, all perfect. one hundred twenty correct answers out of one hundred twenty questions asked. It is rare that anyone gets a perfect score especially when achieved four times in a row. So he was once again claiming, as he said before, that he is an incredibly stable genius. Unfortunately, everything else that was this sort of stream of Detritus on his social media feed raised questions about his mental stability in the minds of many people that were looking at it. But on that cognitive score ty out of Well, congratulations, Mr. President. So some of the things that have exercised him to the point where as you say, questions about his mental stability persist include the Kennedy Center named, of course, for Kennedy, not by Kennedy, which is I think a crucial distinction when it comes to honouring people. and the rally that is there or was scheduled to mark the two hundred fiftieth anniversary and the fund of money for all of the people that sort of committed crimes in his name on the day of the january the six insurrection. They've all got him exercised. Tell us why, but make sure you leave enough time to tell us also about this phone call with Benjamin Netanyahu. Well, let me deal with the Kennedy Center and the anti weaponization Fund together because they're kind of linked in the sense that the American media's framing of what's taking place is not entirely consistent with what is actually taking place. You're going to see headlines out there about Donald Trump is thinking of walking back his idea of setting up this one point seven seven six billion dollar weaponization fund to pay off his mates who ransacked Congress on january sixth, twenty twenty one, that Donald Trump is handing control of the Kennedy center back to Congress. I mean, neither of that is exactly what's taking place. On the anti weaponization Fund, the spepeaker of the House of Representatives Mike Johnson went to him and said This idea is dead on arrival. Forget it. There's no support in the country among Republicans for this. We're not backing it. So he was basically blocked from pursuing this. The idea that he is a man stepping back from this is sort of ludicrous. And similarly on the Kennedy center, I mean, Trump is framing the story that in his fury with the judge who has said he can't name the center after himself, even though he's already done it and it's got his name outside it. He's walking away. He's handing control of the Kennedy Center back to Congress Well, as the judge observed, control of the Kennedy Center had never been taken away from Congress. It's not as though Donald Trump legally has control of the Kennedy Center. So those are huge reverses for him. And this America two hundred fifty, this Freedom two hundred fifty set of concerts that's due to be taking place here on the National Mall later this month Part of America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday commemorations falling apart because you've got top musical acts, including Brett Michaels, the Front Man of Poison, Martina McBride, the Commodore, various others, top acts that they had booked, all saying, We thought we were coming to take part in a national celebration. We now discover it's going to be highly politiced by the White House we're dropping out. And that raises a bigger question here about the july fourth celebrations of America's two hundred and fiftieth birthday that are on the horizon. Can the country come together any kind of united way when the president of the United States is now determined to turn those celebrations into a politically infused celebration of his own administration. I think we're beginning to see a lot of public disquiet and uncertainty about the extent to which people want to participate in these events. And that seven hour rampage of social media postings, more than fifty in total also saw him compare himself to George Washington publish an image depicting his own fizzog chiseled into Mount Rushmore and more threats to seize Greenland, as well as promoting an hour long interview. conducted for Fox News by his own daughter inw, which presumably makes GBB's attempts to interview look like Waltergate. Well Frost Nixon, actually would have been a better joke if I thought of it quickly enough. And so to this phone call, this extraordinary phone call between Donald Trump and the man who reportedly persuaded him to go to war against Iran. Yeah, I mean, I do want to make the point, James, as you and I have made before, that the first reports of this were funneled by the White House to one particular reporter at the website, Axios, who is continually on the receiving end of reports from the White House that don't always turn out to be accurate turn out not to be an yeah, precisely. However, there are multiple media outlets saying that this call yesterday with Benjamin Netanyahu was definitely very testy. in the telling of the original report to the website, Axos at one point President Trump said to Benjamin Netanyah, who words to this effect, you're blank crazy. You'd be in prison if it weren't for me. I'm saving your ass. Ebody hates you now, everybody hates Israel because of this. I mean, what this underscores is two things. First of all, that Benjamin Netanyahu, you know, whatever the actual words President Trump used Benjamin Netanyahuu is acting independently of the United States, and that's partly the United States fault. I mean, they supercharged his capacity to take the lead in Iran by agreeing to launch assaults on Iran on Benjamin Netanyahu's timetable on february twenty eighth But it also underscores that President Trump is under fire from the right of his own right wing. I mean, he's under fire from leading prominent figures within his own make America G again.