Maintaining a professional blank canvas

This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien Four minutes after ten is the timeim and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where the quote from the G canon of British literature that we have referred to most often on this programe over the years is probably this one There was truth and there was untruth. and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world You were not mad And at some wies that feels even more urgent advice, doesn't it than others? Because I'm afraid we find ourselves, as we have several times over the years. I probably don't need to list the examples, but you know Brexit, Boris Johnson, Liz Tusust, Donald Trump, Benamin Net and Yahu Austerity, all of the things that elements of our establishment, particularly in politics in the media, united to tell us were one way turned out not long after the event to be completely the opposite. and all of the critics of all of those things It turned out in every single case to be completely right, so you have to hold on to the truth, even against the whole world U, because that's the way you don't go mad. I had to give my head a bit of a wobble this morning when I saw the date on this statement that I'm about to read to you. I actually struggled to believe that it was six years ago to the day that a woman felt compelled to issue this plea. To the day, that's the bit that prompted me to give my head a wobble, the contents of the statement didn't, because I think I alluded to them yesterday As a foundation and a family, we are aware of a number of posts using images of Lee and his murder in a divisive way to fuel arguments against the Black Lives Matter protests Lee proudly served his country to protect the rights and freedoms of all members of this great melting pot of a nation Seeing his image used to cause hate of any kind Especially for those exercising their freedoms in protest against this issue hurts We find these posts extremely heartbreaking and distressing and in complete opposition to what Lee stood for We ask you all to please stop using his image and memory in such posts, as he was a lover of all humanity Every race, gender, creed, sexuality and colour So seeing such use of his name harms not only his family, but his legacy and memory Our thoughts and support go out to George Floyd's friends and family at this tragic time We wish you all love and peace at this time and that was posted by Lyn Rigby on behalf of the Lee Rigby Foundation, six years ago Please S flipping shs Blue Session Somebody murdered in horrific circumstances sees their own family issue a plea to racists to stop using their death to score political points or to spread further hatred, further division, And what do they do Dance on the grave of the dead and they completely ignore the wishes of the family I don't think this is a morning for getting cross again. There was plenty of that yesterday. I think this is a morning for a slightly cooler reflection on what is happening in our country at the moment and an attempt together to work out why it is happening. because that's the bit that confuses me, that the why of it, not the what of it, that's fairly easy to track, but the absolute why of it Because it is obvious. that people talking about unconscious bias or diversity training. or anti white racism or two tier policing. It is obvious from even a cursory understanding of the fact that that is not true. So we can automatically divide people who are doing those things into two categories There are people who honestly think it is true who we can possibly read And then there are people who know it isn't true who I don't think we can. And that is where the parallels with all of those other recent events that I mentioned at the opening of the programe become absolutely irresistible, isn't it? Some people are persuadable by facts and evidence, and some people are not So if you believe, for example, that police officers are going about their business in this country with inherent or carefully cultivated biases against white people, and you truly believe that without any evidence, but with very carefully cultivated ideas and phrases being poured into your ear, a tragic call yesterday from an eighteen year old lad who was adamant that unconscious bias was the reason why U Henry Novak was dead, but he couldn't tell you what unconscious bias was, what unconscious bias training involved, or why training against unconscious bias was a bad thing a headline just to put in front of you at that point in the conversation about unconscious bias. from today's Daily Telegraph, all NHS staff to have anti Semitism training. That's a good thing Training people to be less racist, pointing out to people that some of the things they don't realize are racist are racist, they are good things Another headline for you from the Times. Stab Victim Arest Force quotes pressured end quotes by racism C. one in five police officers and staff feared saying the wrong thing after mandatory diversity training Should we have a little stop and think what that might have involved? I mean, you could have gone with the other headline, eighty five percent had absolutely no problem with it whatsoever, which I think is probably not true. fififteen percent stries me as very, very low for organizations of human beings that are routinely found to be institutionally racist, misogynistic and homophobic, most recently of courseused by Louise Casey But what that means, of course, is that some people go into diversity training or unconscious bias training, and the Royal College of Police and others have told us that most coppers couldn't tell you what it involved or even remember whether they've done it or not. Some go into it and come out feeling very, very uncomfortable. Do you want to know a secret Do you know who is most uncomfortable with having unconscious bias pointed out. whether it's racism, homophobia or misogyny, do you want to have a guess at who's most uncomfortable and most opposed to attempts to that sort of thing out of our society well done P people who don't like ha it pointed out that they're racist That is you know, not an opinion, that's counting. So again, we see the British media almost unanimously this morning with a few glorious exceptions jumping onto this ludicrous Fage flavored bandwagon pretending that there is either two tier policing in this country or that attempts to make the police force less racist against people of color, which All the statistics show us haven't worked very well have somehow made the police force which is almost unanimously dominated by white people, have somehow made the police force biased against people who are white, who are not of colour. And some of the headlines are frrankly extraordinary. Inevitably, Alista Heath in The Daily Telegraph, the man that told you Liz Truss was an economic genius that Boris Johnson was better than sliced bread, that Brexit was going to solve all of your ills and make you rich. He writes anti white racism is real And there'll be more Henry Novaks until it's crushed Okay U Brendan O'Neill in the spectator. Why can we rage against George Floyd's death, but not Henry Novax? I think it's probably a rhetorical question Be I've seen plenty of raging against Henry Novak's death, although much of it is built on misapprehensions and misunderstandings, which are only sustainable if you ignore the facts of the case, the comments of the judge, the report of the pathologist and the pleas and the explanations of the family. So by all means rage away about it, but just acknowledge, please that you're ignoring the judge, you're ignoring Henry's family, you're ignoring the pathologist's report And you're ignoring the lived reality of police officers who've had quotes, unconscious bias training And then the Times, Henry Novak and the corrosive effect of DEI on policing So I mentioned to you yesterday the judge's comments. I suggested to you that you should read them and I don't think that that was necessarily I mean I'm going to sound a bit paternalistic now. Take it as you will. but I should have warned you, I think, possibly even a trigger warning Um I should have warned you. elements of the judges's report are unbearable. the immediate aftermath of Henrys stabbics icularly sick and gross. It's easy and indeed not something I'm minded to resist con under up bilious hatred of the man responsible But of course the other thing that comes out in the judge's comments is that It was a horrible tragedy a consequence of the fickle finger of fight pointing at an entirely innocent boy on an evening in Southampton And the judge's comments make that absolutely clear. I shared them with you yesterday, but I think it's probably worth sharing some of them with you againg tonight. I beg your pardon today becausecause so many people are deliberately ignoring them H Here's what happened, right? One man stabbed another man and then the The killer's brother phoned the police to report a racial attack That means that the call handler informing the police and the police attending the scene believed that they were attending the scene where the two men who had reported the attack were the victims and the man that they had reported was the perpetrator They arrived at the scene and they did something which I suspect the inquiry will find they shouldn't have done They handcuffed Henry Novak, although, as the judge reported This is a well known trope. It is the experience of the criminal courts. I'm reading the judge's comments now because somebody has to that sometimes someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury in the hope that they may be released. police officers were faced with having to make quick decisions in pressurised circumstances about the best way to act I think it will find the inquiry that He shouldn't have been handcuffed. That was a regrettable mistake made in the heat of the moment. and some people will of course claim that it was because he was white. But to do that, you have to completely ignore the absolutely unavoidable reality of people of colour being handcuffed in similar circumstances on countless occasions Some of whom even ended up dead So the judges told us what happened? He also referenced the pathologist's report, which again I, uh I can't quite believe that the kind of coverage that I just alluded to a moment ago has somehow managed to completely and utterly ignore the pathologist's report because one of the things that I think even people who haven't bought into the propaganda and the hideous decision to completely ignore the wishes, the expressed wishes of Henry Novak's family, even people who haven't bought into that may be surprised to discover that there was no way the poor boy could have lived. Pathologist Amanda Jeffrey found over two pints of blood at the scene She said that no emergency medical treatment would have permitted access to the bleeding vein In simple terms, he would not have survived, however quickly he received first aid, CPR or expert medical treatment So you've decided to ignore the judge. Wh has explained that when the police arrived, it was entirely understandable due to Henry's clothing and the time of night that they wouldn't have noticed all of the blood on him and they were under the impression that they were responding to a crime reported by victims. It took them, I think less than three minutes, possibly less than a minute to establish that the facts were actually the other way around and to arrest the perpetrator who will happily rot in jail Hopefully rot in jail for the rest of his life. his brother and his father still face trial. for other offences. That's your two tier policing for you right there So you've decided to completely ignore the judge and his detailed, careful explanations. You've decided to completely ignore the pathologist and her expert insistence that the poor man could not have survived however quickly he received first aid CPR or medical expert medical treatment, you've decided to completely ignore the fact that so called antique racism policies had absolutely nothing to do with the treatment of Henry Novak, not least because Although politicians may choose to describe the phraseology as clumsy, all it really means is that, as is explained by one journalist today, someone who is Jewish may need reassurance that police are taking a claim of criminal damage seriously and that hate will be considered as a motive If I get attacked in the street, or if for example, somebody were to throw bacon at me in the street, I would expect to be treated differently from a Muslim or a Jew Right? You understand why. Yeah. If I was black and you were stopping and searching me, I would expect these days to to have it proved to me that you weren't stopping me because I was black, which has happened in this country for years, but you were stopping me because you had reasonable grounds to suspect that I had committed a crime. Those are what these guidelines are in place to do. This is not hard to understand. And if you don't currently understand it, it is not hard to find the U the help that you need to establish this Ministers accept the document was not even sent to officers to act on, but regardless it gives the wrong impression. But we return to those headlines, Anti white racism is real and there'll be more Henry Novaxs until it's crushed How is Henry Novak a victim of anti white racism if he would have died regardless of what happened at the scene of the crime It's a question you can put to Alistter Heath if you ever have the misfortune of meeting him or perhaps you can just ask him why he hasn't bothered to read the judge's sentencing or indeed the pathologist's report Henry Novak and the corrosive effect of DEI on policing s the times without telling you what that D. Usually what they get is some retired copper who's still bitter about the circumstances in which they left the force, insisting that these days everybody's woke T'll tell you what is a story the underfunding and the collapseing morale that unfolded in the police service under fourteen years of Tory rule and George Osborne's austerity. But these papers can't tell you about that because of course they were cheering it from the rafters for the entire duration of that decade and a half. And then you have Why can't we rage? I mean, the stupidest headline of all inevitably in the Spectator magazine. Why can we rage against George Floyd's death, but not Henry Novax Well, I suppose because Henry Novak wasn't killed by the police. Um and Henry Novak's perpetrator has been jailed as a consequence of police actions despite police actions which is the biggest difference between George Fud, I mean, what's the point of explaining this? Because of course some people are determined not to see the evidence of their own eyes and is. Some people are determined not to Not to know They are determined to tell their readers, their listeners, their viewers, lies Absolute li. This idea that the police turned up and didn't do the inquiries that they should have done because they were worried about the ethnicities of the perpetror. You know where that takes you logically. the natural culbination of that line of thought. If you ring up to report a burglary later today Yeah The first thing the police should do when they turn up at your house is establish that you're not actually the burglar We're going into to that We're going to twenty four Ocasia Avenue. We've had a report of a burglary.o who handed in the report? Oh, James O'Brien did. Okay. Hello, so what's your name? James O'Brien? A I'm just going to ask you to enter your pockets. Act now I'm just going to ask to prove that you're not the burglar. That's what you're hearing Already, this idea that you turn up and you believe nothing or ask everything If someone reports a crime, the first person you go to and trying to find out what's gone on is the person that reported the crime I think and this is something I say carefully I think what we're seeing here is an outpouring of rage that the police didn't turn up at the scene of this crime and automatically presume that the brown people were the criminals and the liars and the white person was the innocent victim. I think it's that simple I think all of these people, writing all of these headlines, making all of these claims, ignoring all of these facts I think they just hate the fact that the police force no longer turn up at the scene of the crime and treat the ethnic minority member of our population as the wrongin That's the that's my Ocham's Rzor. Because the question I've got for you this morning is that when the evidence is so incontrovertible that this has nothing to do with race. when the family of the murdered boy have pleaded with you to not bring racism into it. justust like Lee Rigby's mother has pleaded with you leave her son out of your racist provocations. Just as Henry Novak's father begged the establishment not to do precisely what Nigel Farrage subsequently did. And all of these journalists choose to ignore Henry's family. They choose to ignore the trial judge. They choose to ignore the actual pathologist. choose to ign all of the available evidence about the efficacy or impact of so called diversity training. And I want you to tell me why Why are they doing it? Not Farid, We know why he does the things that he does U But why are they doing it Why are people who do what I do for a living failing utterly to read the most simple accounts of what actually happened and reaching instead for ludicrous claims about anti white bias in the police One thing I didn't know One thing I didn't know and I'm not going to apologize for this because you've got to look after your own mental health and I don't go on The sewer that is much social media these days, Elon Musk inevitably weighing in on the platform that he owns yesterday One thing I didn't know was how carefully the ground had been seeded for a moment like this, how desperately some elements would have been waiting T a moment like this where they could just push the facts to the sidelines and go in on the carefully cultivated angers and hatred So why M They doing it. Why are people completely ignoring Judge the murdered man's family and the pathologist. when they try and turn this into a conversation about race, about two tier policing or about unconscious bias trait. Why are they doing it three, four, five, six zero, six z. Nine, seven Th. I'm going to say that again because it's a very specific question Why are people ignoring the judge, ignoring the coroner and ignoring Henry the pathologist and ignoring Henry Novak's family in exactly the same way that they ignored Lee Rigby's mother, why are they doing it What do they want question for you this morning. what do they want zero three four five, six zero six zer Nine, seven, three James O'Brian on LBC. Listen on your smart speaker, just say Cay LBC What do they want What do these people want When they choose to ignore Henry Novak's father judge in the trial of Henry Novak's murderer, the events of the evening of Henry Novak's death, the report of the pathologist who attended the scene of Henry Novak's killing, and the easily available evidence of the reality and impact of so called unconscious bias or diversity training, what do they actually want Didn't ask that question soon enough with regard to some of the other things that are going on. I'm just going to play you one more clip. becausecause I just actually again had to give my head a wobble. I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing. When the man who has and credit where it's due, has managed to turn the death of Henry Novak categorically and clearly against the heartfelt wish of his family into a massive political bonfire that we are compelled to take part in because if you don't you leave the stage clear for the arsonists. So I can't think in my head a wobble when I heard The man who is responsible for turning this into a festival of lies, exaggerations and racism credit where it's due, but I couldn't quite believe my ears when I heard him responding to another murder in this country just a few short years ago counterproductive, and there is a danger We in a debate about this abduction and murder and more broadly how safe women are on the streets, all of which is a valid debate There's a danger, we go way too far in our criticism of men and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group So Sarah Everard gets murdered and Nigel Farage urges people not to broaden it out to men getting murdered. Henry Novak gets murdered and Nigel Farage immediately broadens it out to All men that look like the murderer He even, I think, in that clip, discouraged Protest I don't know if it's even worth asking Why his response to the murder of a white woman by a white man would be so different Be the misogyny as we know, is a handmaiden of racism But why would his response to the murder of a white woman by a white policeman Be all Mally moused and Equable When a white man is murdered by a brown man and the police at the scene construed as having, well I think they did behave badly in the context of the handcuffing, but suddenly they're racists What on earth is that man on Listen to this again. this is after Sarah Everard was abducted and murdered by a serving And I'm gonna to have to say white because That's what much of this conversation has been turned into by Nigel Farish by a serving white policeman counterproductive, and there is a danger V in the debate about this abduction and murder and more broadly how safe women are on the streets, all of which is a valid debate. There's a danger, we go way too far in our criticism of men and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group. Is he worried that he might be on the hook for if we're going to go after all white men withith slightly misogynistic leanings, then goodness me I might be getting a knock on my door soon. Or or is there something else going on here So what do ignore that? Well, don't ignore it. Take it on board next time you hear him claiming that there should be pure cold rage about this crime But just have a look for me if you would at what they want. What do these people want when they absolutely ignore The judge the facts pathologist and the family I don't know why they're doing it, except the possibility that they want to live in a world like the nineteen sixties. They want to live in a world where if you turn up at the scene of a crime, you're a black person who's reported it, you're the one that is automatically treated like a criminal. You might accidentally fall downstairs in the police station. You might get murdered on the streets of South London and then the incompetence and baked in racism of the police will mean that the people seen at the scene of your crime go I'mpunished for decades and in four of their cases, I'mpunished forever What do they want? What do they actually want It's a variation of the question of why are they doing this? And part of the answer to that would be to sell papers and to get clicks. But you don't need me to remind you where you need to go to find proof that you can be on the side of the facts and the truth and decency and still draw in massive numbers of massive audiences Why are they doing it Maybe as easy to answer, but what do they want the end game to be? What's the aim of these lies, these embellishments, these exaggerations and these hideous, heinous, unforgivable decisions to ignore the judge, to ignore the pathologist and to ignore Henry Novak's family. What do They want It's Dominic Gdis with the headlin. This is LBC. Message, James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. ten thirty three is the time. I mean it is I've talked enough, but it would be comical if it wasn't so tragic that we have somehow woken up in twenty twenty six in a country still riven with racism. in our police forces because all of the inquiries tell us that. and The people that brought you Brexit, Boris Johnon, Liz Trus Austerity, and Donald Trump are claiming that it's all biased against white people It would be funny if it wasn't so horrible. and the upshot of it, of course, would be more violent at least that's what they're hop U Why? what do they want How does it end in their weird fever dreams? How did any of those things end in their weird fever dreams? but how does this one end A liar is an Mfield A liar, What what would you like to say And I don't think this is the host the whole answer to your question. But I think part of the answer is that When I first heard this story, the first thing that stuck out to me was the rac element, the fact that they had lied The pabatrats had lied about being laterly attacked. And I knew straight away that's the element of the story that they're going to jump on the media. And yeah, I did. as soon as I heard it, knew if there was going to be any talk about it, I knew that that was the people who want to make that the element of the story they find most important. They're going to seize that And once you've got that, your story is written like you know what you're going to say It doesn't matter what anybody else says. You've got your answer basically or your Yeah, you put your story And then So that's the business model then, which for good or for ill is as old as the Hills. you know, I mean, things have got measurably worse over the last ten years, but the idea that you do a little bit of victim narrative. you're the real victims here It's awful being white in this country. It just puts bums on seats In a way, yeah, I think some people will genuinely believe that. and it clearly. It proves your point. I don't think we can reach them. I don't think they can be persuade it otherwise really. I E in the media sorry. Even in the media, they believe that, I think some people do anyway I think that maybe I work in the media and I watch some people quite closely when they end up banging these drums and going down their Brexit will be brilliant. Boris Johson is amazing. Liz Truss is a genius, Donald Trump iss a stand up guy Austerity is great fun and the police officers in this case handcuffed Henry Novak and didn't believe him because he was white. And it's all exactly the same people. I don't think anybody in one of those groups isn' in all of the other groups as well, right And I don't I mean the only defense I could offer up is I don't know whether they believe or don't believe it. I just don't think they think about things. I think they know what a front page looks like on the sun. the day after Brexit. they started blaming it all on there being too many Polish shops And then when someone of Polish heritage gets murdered by a brown person then they just flip they flip the table over and come at it from an entirely different angle. The only thing that it has in common is that they're telling their readers, their listeners and their viewers, here's someone for you to hate and get angry about. I can hate that murderer whatever colour he is, I don't need to bring his race into it and I can feel sorry for a victim, whatever color they are, I don't need to bring their race into it unless it's demonstrably Pably the case that he's died because of his colour And in this case, the opposite is true. So I don't know. I mean I don't know whether they believe it or not actually. I think often they just don't think about it It's true because I think I like if I wanted to, I could write an article with that narrative. If it's easy. you see it It's easy to write, doesn't necessarily have to make sense I think the parallels they draw with things like George Floyd, it's almost like it's so opposite that you can make the comparison in some like logical like wk logical way. Why would you want to? So somebody watches the George Floyd Sga unfolds and thenen they hear the details of the Henry Novak murder. and you're talking about a man Murdered by police whose murder would never have been properly reported or justice achieved if it wasn't for the fact that a member of the public there was filming it. And then you're looking at a man murdered by a civilian who was arrested at the scene by the police and the footage of the police's own mistakes was then released by the actual police And people see a parallel So people in the spectator want to know why you can't rage about The Boker was murdered by a civilian criminal in the same way that you raged about, The Bloker was murdered by a police officer. You're right, you can't stop to think about it too much, can you? Because if you did, you'd realize what an absolute idiot you are. It's the same loge or a if based on the same theory that you see something easy to write about and you write it, that's almost it's easy money really. Like You see something easy, you write about it, you don't need to think about it. and then when Jose's comments and things come out, you've got the option of either Reize admitting you've made a mistake which you're not going to do Or just ignoring it. O justust crack ont to the next thing, wait for the next disaster to unfold and then pick somebody to tell your readers and your listeners to hate in that context really, I mean by all means hate the perpetrator in this crime, I do, but to somehow start hating the police and encouraging people to riot outside police stations. You don't have to answer this question because it's only just popped into my head. But what do you think Nigel Farrish would have done if Sarah Everrud had been killed by someone who wasn't a white police officer? Do you think he would have been encouraging people not to generalize about other human beings urging them not to be public in their protests And she was killed by somebody who wasn't right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because she was killed by a white police officer and he told everyone to calm down and don't blame anybody for the crime except the man who did it. And whatever you do, dont don't start protesting or taking out your anger on men or the police It depends up on what he wanted at that moment. I think at the moment He'd obviously got his headset on bsting a reform vote. I think if he was is the way to do it. he thinks this is a way to do it. If he was a newspaper editor, and he was writing, or his job was to write articles, he'd write an article about it. but because right now, you can use it as political capital. It's almost like you have to It's impossible to do if you've got a conscience but to you look at it from a perspective, from their perspective of I guess like completely remove the human element from it and Yeah Yeah. I mean, maybe you may have killed my phone in Stone deead a liar. I do this a lot. I overthink things. I presume that people who do at least what I do for a living will think about things a little bit like read the coronate, read the pathologist's comments, read the judge's sentencing, listen to the family, but maybe I'm just a bit of an idiot myself And have a look at thety the last fifty years of the British media from the moment Rupert Muroock bought the News of the worldld. It's been clear that the best business model is just to feed people absolute hate filled bile and encourage them to to direct it at whichever target you've identified today because don't forget, ten years ago almost to the day, it was people with Polish names. the front page of the sun was saying G good, we voted Brexit, get out of our country too many Polish shops. So it doesn't actually there's a there's not even a veneer of logic to the hatred Except that it will never be directed at middle aged middle class white men Even if they are police officers, even if one of their number, a serving police officer has murdered a white woman. I find those Everard comments of Farages, even by his standards in the context of what he's done this week, breathtaking But none of the people who he agrees to be interviewed by will be asking him about them anytime soon. Of that I can assure you Thank you. Ian in Stafford,, and what would you like to say Yeah, I think it's the answer is in two parts, maybe. but it all links back down to the attention economy really. know first part, why are your colleagues doing it? Well, I think you're modest enough to know that not everybody wants to listen to you, people like you or people like Sheila who have got some rational understanding of things. They want to listen to people who are dramatists who down the microphone who we'll do a bit of shouting. And you put you put me in a very uncomfortable position here Be I've got the biggest audience Eactly much. Oh no. there it goes. You spoiled my moment in the sun there with the quality of your phone line. We may get you back I mean, it's a question, isn't it? What are these people doing, whether they work here or not? Why are they ignoring the judge? Why are they ignoring the family of Henry Novak? Why are they ignoring The pathologist, whyy are they claiming that something that doesn't exist exists? Why are they living in a country where endemic racism in the police service has been identified, evidenced and proven Time and time again from McPerson to Casey And they're pretending that the exact opposite is true. Oh, yes, there is racism, there is two tier poling, but it's directed at white people And maybe I am overthinking it. Maybe there isn't answer to the question of what do they want? They don't care. They just want fires today. and and jam tomorrow I think we' got Ian's phone line up. stay where you are K k. I'll be with you imminently. So Mo on if you would, to the question of what they want Yeah, so I think it was in two parts. Firstly, they're feeding their customer base and you know, attention economy, getting the clicks and making sure they're getting their advertising revenue. Why do the customers want it? Yeah I think it's because certain amount of the population and people like to live or experience life and be part of something that's achieved through an easy argument that doesn't require logical thinking. And they like to feel like victims and they like to feel like victims. It's easier to feel like a victim than it is to actually think, rationalize and understand an argument, something like this which You know, it is very complex, something it's not that complex complex. It's not that complex. I mean, this case isn't that complex. It's all there in the judge's report. It's all there in what the pathologist said. It's all there in what Mark Novak said after sitting in court every day of the trial This isn't complex if you take the time and the effort to go and find that information And I think that's the issue. It's that do you put able to relate to those things. How do you put Henry's dad on mute How does that work Well, it's just ridiculous, isn't it? Yeah It's absolutely ridiculous. When I think the only person who could carry the weight, the credence and have the emotional investment to ask or direct how people should behave in this instance is just totally ignored Yeah. And you know, as we often say on the programe, the lie can be halfway aroundound the world before the truth has got its trousers on I mean another thing that is stressed by both the judge and by Henry Novak's father is that the murder itself had absolutely nothing to do with race It was It was an altercation in the street between two young men at no point in any of and they was filmed. So everybody knows what the the run up to it was. So you know I get a couple of messages. H's one. I think it's important to say that Henry was killed by a racist But it's important to say that that is absolute hkeb Even if it were true, it's utterly unevidenced and unproved and not even claimed by anybody involved in the case, including the actual prosecution Jason, the actual prosecution. And the reason for that is that they were filming each other up until the moment of impact. so you can identify without even a scintilla of doubt. what happened in the in the immmediate run up to the crime, to the hideous crime, committed just for the avoidance of doubt by absolute scum. The more you read that judge's report, the easier it is to understand why some people can be persuaded to supporting the death penalty for certain crimes. Make no mistake You know, we are flesh and blood balk at this, but I don't balk at it more because he's brown That, I think is part of what they want, isn't it? That's why they hated the George Floyd stuff. That's why Stephen Lawrence' murder went unpunished for so long I just hate the fact We are being encouraged as a society to and treat people of color with more dignity than we used to treat them differently from how we used to. treat them differently from how we treat each other F funny that Ive got a horrible story for you next. and it ties in with the increasing case for the government finally doing something about Elon Musk's hideous platform, Twitter. A labour MP has decided to sue his company over fake sexualised images because don't forget that Elon Musk makes money or his platform makes money out of images of child sexual abuse. even as he uses his power and his account to support liars Biggers grifters who claim that they want to protect our women by you know, um, providing a platform for people to publicize events that lead to riots outside repurposed hotels and police stations that it subsequently turns out are attended by serial domestic abusers. Yeah, they're the people that some of these clowns are empowering to protect your women. And actually here's another one, here's another one of those people. that is insisting that we protect our women by suggesting that when one of our women is killed We shouldn't blame men counterproductive and there is a danger We've been a debate about this abduction and murder and more broadly how safe women are on the streets, all of which is a valid debate. There's a danger we go way too far in our criticism of men and broaden this out from bad people to men as a group. He actually wrote We must not allow the tragic murder of a young woman turn into attacks on men and attacks on the police But we absolutely must allow the tragic murder of a young man turn into attacks on anybody the same colour as the killer, and The police I'll never get bored of this. I know how much it annoys a small element of my audience, but I want you to know what you're voting for. I don't want you to be able to pretend that you don't know So I'm always going to show it to you and you're always going to hate me because what you see is a mirror. You see a reflection. I don't care that he responded to Sarah Everard's murder in a completely different way from the way he responded to Henry and I certainly don't want to think about why that might be because he's feeding me He's feeding me and I want more whyy members of the media join in maybe, as a liar has pointed out isn't such a big mystery as I thought it was at ten o'clock this morning. After this break, Jessesarto, who is taking legal action against Elon Musk's company after saying its Grock tool helped a user produce fake, sexualized pictures of her will be telling me why she's doing what she's doing. James O'Brien on LBC. It is ten fifty one and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Now you will be aware if you're kind enough to listen to this program. anythingthing close to a regular basis, that I removed myself from the sewer that is Twitter S time ago, some years ago, in fact, I was quite an early adopter of that decision. and I thought it would be difficult because built up a huge following over the years, but it was surprisingly easy. And it was as a consequence of Elon Musk's ownership and what he was doing to the site So I'm not entirely aware of just how disgusting it has become until either you tell me or some people not always helpfully clip things from there and put it on my other platforms But some stories just stop you in your tracks and the story of an MP, an elected British member of Parliament feeling that she has little choice but to take legal action against Elon Musk's company. Um, because of fake sexualized images of her being both created and disseminated. sounds like something out of a rather poor dystopian novel, but it isn't it's the lived experience of Jess Oato, who joins me now. I suppose Jess, and I don't really want to I have to ask by But what what exactly was done So thank you. This is an issue that's affected many, many thousands of women and disgustingly children which I spoke up as an MP about in January, when it became very clear that millions of images were being uploaded without consent and non consensual sexualised imagery was being created through Grok by users. As a result, I then became the target and Grock created images of me in a bikini. But people ask let's work on the presumption that I'm a complete idiot justess. It should be easy to do. People have to ask Grock to do this 's Right. so GroOck was integrated with the X platform. so you could just at Grock and say at Grock this woman in a bikini and it would just create the image. And what many users did then, of course was share that image back with the person whose picture had been taken without consent and manipulated. and that's what happened to me I then went on the BBC to say that this had been happening to me and somebody created a video of me being surrounded by a group of men I was chloroformed, I fainted and then my skirts were lifted up as if to prepare for a sexual assault Obviously, I'm sorry that you've had to go through this course did you discover that you had when that happened or perhaps even when the first activities happened? What did you discover? Because many people listening would think, well, there's a button you can press or a number you can call, and it would be taken down immediately and apologies and the people responsible would be punished. And Twitter was a bit like that in the old days, but I don't think it's like that now No that is not what happened. I did report as many of these pictures that I could, but X did not take them down. and so a friend suggested that I contact a lawyer to ask whether they might be able to do that for me. and yes, it did turn out A lawyer's letter did work and they did then eventually take these down. But in the process my lawyer said, you know we think that you actually might have a case. wouldould you like to look at it? And because I had been inundated by many, many women getting in touch with me telling me about their experiences, some of which are much, much worse than mine. We're talking about real deep fake pornography I thought, well, maybe we could make this work, maybe we could see if under our current law We do have rights to privacy and data protection and let's see whether we can actually hold these organisations to account because at the moment they act with impunity because of course Elon Musk is the richest man in the world. So who who could take him on legally, particularly where we're at the frontiers, I guess of AI and technology. And it felt to me I wanted to bring voice to those women and indeed families of children whose images has been manipulated into sexual imagery too. And that's why I've taken this case. They said that they dealt with it a few months ago, didn't they? They said it was going to change the system to allow only paying customers to produce such imagery which is quite an extraordinary response to some of the things that you've described. And then later they claimed that they'd entirely stopped from editing pictures of real people to show them in revealing clothes. Do you know whether or not that's true I don't think we do entirely know that's true, but they certainly can still create bikini pictures because they're not considered to be intimate imagery. We know that they can still create things like holes in women bruising you know, you can take anybody's picture and manipulate it in a violent way. in a misogynistic way and I've already received, since I've launched my case, many pictures of me in a bikini. I don't know whether they've been created by Grock. I've not had the time to do that investigation. But I think the other part of this is because it's integrated with social media, unlike some of the other AI platforms This material can spread so quickly and it becomes an almost almost like a game for some men who seem to think that they're entitled to do this to women that they've never met. And I think it's important that as a society we have a conversation about whether this is the sort of world that we want to live in because nobody would be able to walk up to me in a street strip me off and put me in a bikini But somehow it's become normalized That's just fair game online. and we do need some sort of new kind of boundaries to protect women and children because of course the end result of this is that Women will start to leave these platforms. and I absolutely understand why many women have left exX. you said that you did it early on because nobody wants to you know end up finding out that their image, their possibly their professional profile image or just, you know, the just ordinary person who wants to follow what's going on. And suddenly They' their face is part of deep fake pornography. L this is not Right and we need to stop it. Do you think the government should still be on there, using it as a platform to reach the public, even as the owner does is level best to create civil war in this country and does nothing as events like the ones you've been subjected to unfold offten, of course, in the lives of people who don't have recourse to the law and couldn't even afford to send a legal letter neverever mind pursue a case like yours or indeed like the case being pursued by the mother of one of Elon Musk's children in New York State Ashley Stain. Clarair, who also alleges explicit images were generated of her, including one in which she was under aage. I mean It struck me for some time, Jess, that the government should have been off that platform Ages ago That's an issue for the government in relation to my in relation to me. I am still on it. And the reason I'm still on it. is because I do not want to be pushed out. I am an elected representative. And it is important to me that my constituents, wherever they choose to go, can contact me on platforms that are available to them I'd prefer not to be on it. I'll be honest with you, but I think actually there's a principle here of my own freedom of speech. that I shouldn't have to be so fearful that people will manipulate my image into something that is misogynistic. We're not talking about parody here. we're not talking about satire. Of course public figures, there's a higher threshold for images that should be created of us. I totally get that What I'm talking about is the dedicated use of this technology, AI technology to demean and humiliate and degrade and thereby silence Wen because we simply cannot put up with it day after day. and I do know that many of my colleagues have come off X and I do not that's absolutely the right thing for them to do. For me personally, I'm staying on it because I'm sort of doing it as a protest almost, which is I shouldn't be pushed off these platforms. No I understand that. Do we have any idea of how this case is going to unfold? Do we know what the next chapter is in the story So you know I don't I don't know the le the legal niceties, I'm afraid. that's in the hands of my lawyers. And we will obviously be up to XAI and the steps that they decide to take. Civil cases can take quite a long time in the court, so I'm prepared for this to be part of the long haul. In the time being, I'm hoping that more victims will come forward who've had their images manipulated by Gak you described an example of what's happening in the US. but we know there are thousands of women and indeed sadly some children whose images were manipulated in that period of December, January. and either I want them to sort of seek help from the legal team to get those images taken down or potentially to join the legal case if they feel they're able to. Is there anywhere people can go to find out more about it Yes. there is a page on AWO which is the solicitors's website where they they can look at the detail and email through. I shall provide a link to that on my social media j, although Obviously not on X or Twitter. But I completely respect your reasons for still being there. Jessic Oto, the Labour MP for Lowerstoft and as she points out, it's not her job to regulate this stuff. it's her bosses Hey Elon Musk is essentially a malign foreign actor trying to interfere in British democracy. On the one hand and then on the other hand he is the owner of technology that allows hideous things like that to happen. And on the other hand, if you will allow three hands in this case The platform last night was publishing details, names, even addresses of people claimed to be police officers responsible for the treatment of Henry Novak on the night that he died, and they got the wrong people which makes it awful. But even if they'd got the right people, it would have been awful And I don't imagine that that leads to any sanction. In fact, I don't know, but I would not be staggered into silence Pish the sord. If the people disseminating that stuff get financially rewarded by the way that that platform now works, even as they endanger all people involved would be completely innocent, including the police officers that were there that night, but police officers who had absolutely nothing to do with it, ex police officers who had absolutely nothing to do with it. There's a few quid to be made from painting targets on their doors and indeed on their backs So whose job is it to stop It's eleven o three This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien Seven minutes after eleven is the time. I don't know what the word is.s not I don't think it's ironic, but it is notable that while the world rages about claims that police receive anti racism training that somehow makes them racist Y me neither. But as the world rages about police receiving anti racism training that somehow makes them racist, it is reported today that all NHS staff will have anti racist training, even more than they have already They will have content on anti Semitism and anti Muslim hostility worked into the mandatory equality, diversity and human rights training that they already receive I'd be interested to watch a needle people's consciousness or conscience The people who are furious about police receiving anti racism training and somehow persuading themselves that it's made them racist against white people And to see where that needle is. What do you feel about the police receiving anti racism training Yeah U And then revealing that NHS staff are to have anti Semitism trains Does the needle go even higher? I mean what? That's outrageous. That's going to make everybody biased against people who aren't Jewish or people who aren't Muslim You see the madness that we're caught up in now when you allow people like Nigel Faris to speak unchallenged and to make their points withithout being reminded of the last time they made the polar opposite point, you end up in an absolute mess An absolute mess All NHS staff to have anti Semitism training. good All police have anti racism training. It's turning them all racist Exaggerating,t? This is insane that these stories would be around on the same day. You can see why most newspapers have elected to ignore that element of Lord Man's report and focus instead upon badges. And I'm going to focus on badges as well because I think it's a really interesting issue But I'm not going to focus on the badges until we have established how insane it is that the world is going mad about the idea of the police receiving anti racism training, which by the way, is inadequate and ineffective, according to almost all of the independent assessments. And the same bits of the world that are going mad, will, I suspect and spirit of the stopped clock, they will rightly welcome news that NHS staff are to receive anti Semitism training and content on anti Muslim hostility Trust chief executives and chairmen will also be required to complete anti racism training specifically including anti Semitistism within the next six months What you think the people that put the daily teelegraph together realise as they're pasting the pages? How mad it is to have anti racism training being the worst thing imaginable in the world on page fourteen and anti racism training being wonderful and overdue in the NHS. Do you think they even notice how mad this is? How insulting it is to their readers to think that they're too stupid correctly They preempt the sensibilities of their readers by presuming that they're too stupid to notice the contradiction. A it's incredible. Anti racism training is a good thing obviously because racism is a bad thing. The onlyn people who've got a problem with anti racism training are people who think racism is a good thing Which is why Nigel Ferris can't keep his grubby little fingers out of stories like this, but has absolutely nothing to say about the murder of Sarah Everrood, except why can't we all just calm down? And please don't blame men? for the actions of that man, but blame all immigrants for the actions of that man over there who's not an immigrant but looks like he might be. But I want to have a slightly different phone in now with your help U I I'd actually like the conversation about badges and I like the suggestion that NHS staff will not be allowed to wear any. So I don't know whether it's helpful for the BBC to open their reporting with Palestinian badges. I suspect it's a reasonable position to adopt because I suspect that at the moment Symbols demonstrating solidarity with Palestinian people are more commonplace and more prevalent in hospitals than any other expressions of support or allegiance. And I don't think unless well listen, the first thing that you may want to try to do persersuade me that the pro Palestinian badge should be treated differently from all badges because this is not a phon in about pro Palestinian symbols This is a phone in about expressions of support M Badges of allegiance. And I would include in that political causes, but also religious causes you know? Very, very early on And I wish I'd clocked at the time how significant it was. Two stories come back and sort of slap me around the back of the head on a regular basis One of them I did spot pretty early that it was pointing a finger to the road ahead That was Winterville in Birmingham I looked into it when I was writing my first book, How to Be Rite and I couldn't quite believe the fact could be so at odds with the coverage with the reports up to and including, I think the Archbishop of Birmingham. So there was this council There was a bloke who worked for the council in Birmingham in I think the early nineteen eighties. I name him in the book in a happy way and say, God blinde me. I bet he didn't have any idea what he was unleashing. when he worked out that Birmingham Council could save a ton of money if they didn't take down the lights in between festivals So I can't remember what they were celebrating, but sleivating, celebrating. It was the other lot that was calleivating. So Christmas was up there. I think Divali was up there. Eid wouldn't have been up there, would it? But there were various festivals that were all coming around the same time And in Birmingham They used to take the u the kind of celebrations down and then put them up again. And this bloat worked out, they could save quite a lot of money by just leaving them up for the duration And obviously, if you're leaving them up for the duration of say a three month period then You can't call it Christmas if they're going up in October. any more than you could But you don't need me to explain how months work. although the right wing media at the time did Because they called it Wintervill. so it would cover the entire period that the lights were on the lampposts Well they were happier at times, weren't they when we had lights on lamp posts instead of tatty nylon flags that have been put up by racists. Anway Everyone went mad. Everyone claimed they were abolishing Christmas and that you can't say happappy Christmas in this country anymore without being arrested. And that was twenty, thirty, forty years or thirty years ago. Anyway early doors and I spotted Quite early on in this job, that that was pointing the way that today leads us all the way to the horrible murder that we've been discussing or wek, well rather the media reaction to it Tell someone that Christmas is being cancellled and you can be fairly confident they won't bother to check before they start shouting. And that that happened and still gets referred to. I still see it every now and again. It's an insane story. The truth is out there, as they used to say on the X files, and I know that because I bloody wrote it. The truth is out there. And yet every now and then, you'll still see a story saying, o, it's just like Winterville, or this madness started in Birmingham in nineteen something something And the other story that I I don't think it was quite as significant a signpost regarding the direction of coming traffic. But the other story was about a woman who worked for British Airways And she wore a cross around her neck. And British Airways had a rule in place that you weren't allowed to wear anything around your neck I think the rule and I could be wrong, but if I remember rightly, I think the rule was that you couldn't wear any jewelry at all. Maybe a wedding ring, I don't know, but there were various issues And that was the rule. You couldn't wear any jewelry at all And this woman With the support, no doubt of of a think tank or a an organisation This woman decided to take British Airways to tribunal because they had told her that she couldn't wear her cross around her neck the imposition of a rule designed to prohibit health workers from wearing jewelry became in the hands of the people that are currently claiming that two tier policing exists in this country but favourors peopleeople of color That case became an attack upon Christianity. I mean, you think that's mad, you should wait and see what happened when they tried to change scales so that they would have kilograms and pounds on them I'm not even exaggerating Same people, same media, same outlets, same individuals So everybody went mad about this attack on Christianity, which was in fact, prohibition of jewelry on heouseworers And unless you can persuade me otherwise I think this story is the same. I don't think that It is a great affront to NHS staff to tell them that they can't wear pro Palestinian symbols any more than it would be an affront to anybody else to tell them that they can't wear I suppose an Israeli flag perhaps would be the most obvious direct parallel, but lots of other badges as well I don't think when you go to the NHS Youre religion or your political opinions be visible to the person that you are treating For the very simple I dont mean obviously, I don't think you should be allowed to wear a swastika either. For the very simple reason that They may upset me Now It doesn't matter We don't get to sit here and say, yeah, but that one shouldn't be upsetting and that one shouldn't and that one should be and that one shouldn't and that one is and that one isn't that a pluralistic society, a properly diverse society Ses people living alongside each other who can furiously disagree on things without actually coming to blows or attacking each other And while I think that solidarity with Palestinian people is pretty much the only moral course to take in the current context in the Middle East. As well as in my case, believing wholeheartedly in not just the necessity but the justification of the existence of the modern state of Israel I I don't think anybody gets a free pass on this Some Jewish people see the Palestinian flag as a support for whichich of course it isn't. But if a Jewish person sees it like that then They're going to be disturbed and they're going to be upset I justust think The rule here should be noobody whereereas any form of Insignnia political or religious in the NHS. So if you really want to dig into it, Some religious beliefs are see, the thing about the rainbow badge is that I don't think that's political I just think that's humanitarian And now you're going to tell me, of course that You're going to tell me of course that A A Palestinian badge is also humanitarian, which is why it's going to be an interesting phon in Because right now I don't think there should be a debate about which cause is just and which cause is not I think it should be a debate about whether or not You get to tell patients who may not like your political beliefs, what your political beliefs are And onene of the saddest discoveries of the last few years is the difficulty that many people have in condemning genocide in Gaza because they are so fearful for the future of Jewish people and Israel is the place where Jewish people go when it all starts happening again and so the difficulty and the failure being able to ride both of those horses, which is easy for someone like me with no personal skin in the game is close to impossible for many people who see Israel as the place of sanctuary for Jewish people next time I political figure decides to scapegoat them for the problems of an entire nation. and because that emotional connection is so strong As with a family member, you can't really concede wrongdoing or you can't really accept that if they're doing it to protect you and yours, then they can't possibly be doing anything wrong I think it's a tragic scenario that that position has been exploited by self serving politicians in Israel and in the United States of America If you want to get an indication of how toxic everything has become, Donald Trump was reportedly on the phone to Benjamin Netanyahu this week, telling him that everybody hates Israel something that would have, of course seen almost anybody else in the world decried as anti Semitic if it got out that they'd been shouting that down the phone. private telephone conversation. So the context of much of this conversation is bonkered. It doesn't seem to me to be bonkers to simply suggest The NHS staff should be barred from wearing political badges on their uniforms And I guess I've already spotted a flaw in this, haven't I? Because If you're homophobic, Tough I mean, it's a bit like the things you can't help wearing Isn't it? Like your skin If you're racist and you're getting treated by a brown nurse tough. And if you are racist to the brown nurse, then Or of course, if you've been on diversity training and you now hate white people and you don't want to be treated by a white doctor Joking, if you're just tuning in presume that's obvious. But that's where we are now in Brexit Britain. You've been on diversity training and now you hate white people Fantastic U Well, there you go. I told you it was a good phone in I'm not one hundred percent clear that it is quite as clear as I thought it as I thought it was when I started talking. Should NHS staff be barred from wearing political badges including symbols expressing solidarity with Palestinian people. My answer to the question is that you should be banned with from wearing anything that is a political insignia or an expression of political opinion Ohero three, four, five, sixzero, sixzero, nine seven three is the number you need. or I suppose the alternative is and it's a valid question is, should we let everybody wear everything? What would the problem be Hit the numbers now you will get through. NHS staff could be barred from wearing political badges on their uniforms such as pro Palestinian symbols part of proposals to help tackle anti Semitism. What do you think? Do you welcome that? Is it a good idea or can you see problems that I have currently missed? It's eleven twenty two James O'Brien on LBC. Call zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. eleven twenty four and I think I may have misjudged this one lookingking at my inbox. There are some examples coming in that rather drive a coach and horses through the idea that it would be both desirable and straightforward to ban all NHS staff from wearing political badges. And do you know what the problem is? you probably saw it before I did Who gets to define what political means? Who gets to define what political is Um Because I can't I've already mentioned rainbow lanyards and rainbow badges expressing solidarity with LGBTQ plus people who have of course been discriminated against in our society up to it including imprisonment in living memory You wantan to ban that as well,? I mean, do we ban them all? Jamil is in Axminster. Jamil, what would you like to say Hi, James. I agree with you. Well hang on, I'm in the middle of changing my mind. Quick, quuick, agree with me before I do So my background is I'm a radiographer, my background. I currently work in the industry side of things I worked in the NHS And I think one way you can go look at this is In infection control perspective. If you go into work, we lost the line. in infection. infection control perspective If It's going to work, you've got to wear nothing below your elbows. You can only wear a wding ring You've got clean scrubs every day if you're wearing scrubs, you've got wear a clean uniform. usinging the same badge again and again and again . So regardless of whether it's for Palestine or or anything. I don't think that there should be anything on you apart from potentially your name badge. And would that apply on the wards as well, not just in operating theatres and the like because you're still dealing with patients and moving from one patient to another And so I think there's an argument from an infection control perspective there, apart from anything else. And I'm someomebody who is very much been involved with humanitarian aid with Ukraine and I'm very anti should he' put this in a different way, anti genocide and take part in weekly in a visual to promote what's going on in Palestine for the Palestian people, but I would be completely against wearing any budges entirely on entirely on infectious grounds. Not entirely, but yes, I think but that's the main thing for me and then it's about, you know you want your patient to be comfortable When you're seeing a patient, you don't want them to be know reading all sorts of things into what your badges Be I think that's more interesting. because I could sterilize all the badges. I could have a rule in place that you have to put them through a steamer or whatever it is before you put. I'm being a little bit pedantic, but it's It's negotiable, I think, that point. What's not negotiable is that nothing political should be permitted Not just nothing metal or nothing born or nothing Bow the elbow. Do you see what I mean I think the other thing is that when you talk about the religious aspect of wearing religious jewelry badges, That becomes quite difficult because if you say, right nobody can wear u crosses or little crease fixes or, you know words in Arabic alo or whatever and So ye, you get rid of all that. And then what do you do when it comes to Muslim and female doctors wearing hijab Yeah or a Sih doctor wearing a turban or a Jewish doctor wearing a Yamunka. Well, I suppose my answer to that would be are other members of staff allowed? I mean, could I go in a bowla hat If a Sik can go in in a turban, then can I go in a bowl of hat? And if the answer to that is no, then you've got a problem and I'm a little bit reluctant to bring turbans into it because I think Sikhs are going to be having an absolutely terrible time. out in Nigel's Britain and I'm sure you are as well, Jumail. But it is a valid point and it is an obvious example of what you're describing But it's not like a cross. There's no, I suppose this is where the debate went last time. So there's no religious requirement to wear a cross No, true. So it doestquire and it's an infection risk I think I'd quite like to see more doctors inbola heads actually. Finally, something on which the whole world can agree. Bring back thebola. Thank you, Jamilla and thank you for the work that you do I'll just crack on with the news actually because there's only a minute left and I don't want to squeeze my next caller into the space available. What tattoos are tricky, aren't they? I mean, what if you just get it tattooed on your forehead You're a support for Palestine. I mean, you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to Rub, why are you all so you' being clerever than me today? I like this topic I suppose I did all the heavy lifting in the first hour. People are mentioning poppies Now Irish footballers sometimes object to the poppy or certainly refuse to decline to wear the poppy because it's a symbol that carries a very different weight in countries that have been oppressed and colonizised by British troops, like the Republic like the island of Ireland There's just a small part of it where arguably it's still going on So you've got poppies, you've got rainbows. I mean if you're doing it entirely on infectious grounds then everything has to be removed from it Um twentyenty nine minutes after eleven is the time. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC M, Dominiic Ellis is hitting out with your headlines. This is LBC. Message, James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three four five six zero sixzero nine seven three eleven thirty two is the time. You're listening to Jose OBron LBC. Mstery are on the way, of course in twenty eight minutes. Just a quick one from Iidiots Cners is from David. I am so sick of you ranting on about Farage and he is not there to answer your personal attacks U I bet you haven't got the or courage to invite him on to your show and have an honest debate. Mate, seriously tell him any time at all In fact, go on YouTube, haveave a look at what happened last time. It was twelve years ago, David, and I still haven't had the return fixture. I accepted his challenge have a debate on my own radio show. I let him in. Do you know what happened? He got dragged out by his own communications officer because it was going so well, David. That's what happens in the media when the grown ups are playing. Things go really, really well and your PL man comes into the studio and insists that the interview end immediately. Look I know I'm wasting my breath because even though he will never have the guts to come into this studio ever and you can see on YouTube exactly what happened when he did, it won't change your and confidence, will it that somehow I'm the coward here And he's the big man telling people not to overreact to the murder of Sarah over Everarde while insisting that they overreact in the worst imaginable ways to the murder of Henry Novak. Have a lovely day, David. Michael's in Greenwich, Michael, Budges in and it's a bit off peace for you. You normally ring me on matters of great international import, but this is nonetheless a fascinating question D, I've lost him after that introduction. I've probably bored him to death Ellen is in Nottingham Ellen, What would you like to say about this Hi, James, thanks for talking about this this morning. I just wanted to it's a couple of things. If I've got time on afraad, but the m thing I wanted to talk about because I don't think anyone else will is that technically union symbols come under political symbols. And they haven't just talked about badges. They're talking about any symbolism at all. So you know lanyyards, embossed chirts, anything that has a symbol will potentially be banned under this And I'm at member of working in NHS and part of a union and And a large part of what we do is obviously organizing at work. So people showing that they're part of a union or supporting their union, that making people feel more confident to join stand up themselves And if the NHS is deciding what's banned It's completely in their interests to pan union symbols because why would they want us to organize? Why would they want us to fight back? Are we looking at a baby bathwater scenario here? So even if I could persuade that person over there that this badge shouldn't be worn by people for this reason and indeed all these badges shouldn't be worn by these people for all of these reasons, that one should be worn and therefore you can't have a ban on badges Well, no, I think it's just If we're talking about the situation, I think there are certain things that yeah, probablyperty should be banned and probably should be considered about. But this is the problem I have as soon as you establish dispensations, the clamour for a dispensation goes up from everybody. With every bad h So where they're going to draw the line? How are they going to decide? If we say, oh yes, we agree with this because it's going to offend some people, well, people are offended by unions acting and strikes, Is that not going to offend people? People are offended, as you've said, by rainbows peopleople are offended by certain charities being supported, how do we decide what's offensive to our patient group And how do we defide what's morally acceptable? Where do we draw that line? I was hoping you'd answer those questions, but obviously neither of us can, and that's a reason not to do it. I suspect, or at least notidual. Yeah, I think you might be right. And also, you know, let's not ignore one of the most troubling elements about all of this, which is that support for Palestinian people or solidarity with Palestinian people or even opposition to the activities of the current Israeli regime in Gaza and Lebanon and beyond is not anti Semitism However hard Benjamin Netanyahu tries to pretend that it is, or however often he claims that he's acting on behalf of all Jewish people, he isn't and it isn't. So why on earth would anybody have to take off a badge demonstrating solidarity Palestinian people, because some poor souls have been persuaded that that's somehow an expressent of hating Jews It seems almost as if you're Citulating to propaganda. and to lives. I don't know and certainly to unhealthy conflations. Michael is in Greenwich, Michael, what would you like to say Well I was well, some of what I was going to say has been said, but my concern is that the countering anti Semitism, I don't think the answer is to teach people to understand more about Judaism, no more than the answer to Islamophobia is to teach people more about Islam or Homophobia is to teach more about people who are LBGBT. It's a question of you have to, I think, teach people, what are the underlying emotional causes that create this The anger the hatred. if you if you would if you If you Conront intolerance. And young people learn to identify where that comes from within themselves. then no matter what dog whistle is used, it won't be very effective because people say, oh, wait a minute They're just trying to get me angry at somebody else. and you could fill in the blank on who this somebody else is.. But I think it's a fundamental mistake that we're making that we think to teach tolerance, you have to have a greater understanding of the target population. Now you need a better understanding of What it is within me that would respond to that call because ultimately All people, you know, people say, well, I should be more tolerant of people or Jewish people. No, we should be more tolerant people. I always think of this woman who walks down the street going I don't see anybody that looks like me just because she can't see people I mean, I walk down the street and there aren't The whole street isn't populated by older white guys who are five, ten and slightly overweight You know, and have I mean, no, nobody looks like me. Nobody looks like me and thank God and nobody looks like anybody else. This could have been a contribution to the last hour of the program, couldouldn't it in some ways I just this is what always, I mean, these are the things that I think about, what is it in us that we keep making these distinctions What does melatonin really have to do with anything? Well I mean you know I agree with you, but in the context of badges is a slightly different equation than there is with melatonin or skin color. So under your analysis, what you would say to someone who was troubled by a pro Palestinian Badge is why are you troubled by someone showing solidarity with a population that is currently being Bomb will enter into quasi oblivion Well, I also would say, what is it about a symbol? I mean, I'll give you a pretty dramatic example of free speech The American Nazi partarty applied for a petition to march through Skokie, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. That was primarily Jewish. This is a good thirty, forty years ago when there were still a number of Holocaust survivors in that neighborhood. Well, they applied for the permit. The permit was denied. the ACLU sued on their behalf. W. And this is free speech And they got the right to march. and they marched and people counter protested and it was peaceful and people talked about it And people condemned the Nazis for it So I think you have we have to be able to accept Someone wearing a Palestinian flag is no threat. no more than if someone wears the star of David or they wear across or they wear a labor badge, you know, a union bad I think you're swinging me. So it is all or nothing, though Because the danger comes in defining what is a political symbol and what isn't and one person says it is and one person says it isn't. Who gets to sit in judgment No, I think the question is what actually actually is dangerous Yes. Is speech dangerous? I don't So You know, and the only thing I would add to this, which is really related to the earlier conversation, there should be no anonymity online Yeah, I mean, you're covering a lot of I'd agree with that as well. although some people no, some people point out that they might be whistleblowers or they might be, you know, drawing attention to egregious activities anonymously and they want to online is a wonderful way to do it and retain their anonymity. But yeah, I've going to correct you on one thing. it's melanin, not melatonin Yeah. Melatonin is I thking of Yeah. No, thanks for the corction. You're very welcome. I'm the radio equivalent of Matonin. that's the that send you to sleep. Melanin is the thing that influences your pigmentation of course. Top man, thank you, Michael. So it is if a Palestinian symbol upsets you You'd have to explain why And or if a star of David upsets you, you'd have to explain why, or even an Israeli flag, of course, which refers to the nation, not the current regime up. Or even if you're a fan of the current regime and you wear an Israeli flag, the other person has to explain why Will it compromise treatment? W it Is it a compromise of freedom? And if it's political Wh who says it's political? Farr is in Southflds Farr, what would you like to say Hi James. Can I just say thank you so much for interviewing Aziz and Ma' last week? I bought the ticket? I bought the ticket and I saw them the next day and met them and listened and it was so uplifting, which is a rarity in today's political landscape. Okay, so I don't think I've called you before, I'm very much on you standing in solidarity with the Palestinians and trying to get this peace through Isra well as well And I actually don't think doctors should be wearing political symbols I'm not sure about the union ones, but the political symbols. because I do think it can make patients feel uncomfortable. I was in hospital a couple of days ago. I was very stressed out. I thought had a stroke it was actually a migraine, it was a big drama. But while I was sitting in the waiting room There was a nurse who was looking at me and she was looking at me in a way that I recognize when people look at me and feel uncomfortable. And I had a Palestinian bracelet. I always had it on on my wrist. and I took it off and I put it in my pocket And the reason I took it off is that I actually was worried that if anybody saw me with this symbol, maybe and this is So so unfair on doctors because I've never experienced it. but if particular political climate with that topic I may not be listened or perhaps I would be treated differently. Because thought is a humans. Why do you think that The person was looking at you asstoned. Sorry She just kept looking at me and then looking actually at my wrist. Oh I see When people, okay, no, I didn't get that. I didn't get that. Yeah She' was looking at the bracelet. And when people sort of look at that, often it's like in solidarity, they'll smile at you or know there'll be some sort of assffirmation time But the opposite can be true as well. the opposite. Exactly. So I don't think they should wear political badges, but I do think they should be allowed to wear religious symbols.. When I see a star of David or a cross I have to say it makes me feel a lot lesser because I feel a connection because I'm a Muslim and the Abrahamic. and I also think it shows diversity in the workplace in the NHS And I think it's quite a welcoming thing. I don't think it's a divisive thing. And I think, you know, if you're the sort of person who's proud to, you so religious that you want to show your beliefs. I don't think there's anything wrong in that. Is it to the point of dispensation though, Faris. if you're not allowed to wear any other jewelry, should you be allowed to wear ckl with a cross on it and if you're not allowed to wear any other badges, should you be allowed to wear a badge with the star of David on it I think if it's a badge, And Oh gosh you've got me on that one. That's the thing that gets me as well. And then we bring in Jamil's point earlier about infection control, which is, you know, not a red herring. might it might be a navigable objection, but if the reason why you're not allowed to wear British airways to be honest,s not the NHS the first time I dip my toe into this conversation, but the rule was no one can wear jewelry, particularly necklaces in case you're leaning over the baggage round and it gets caught up and you get dragged around like Mr. Bean. But the point stands, whether it's a crucifix or a cross on the end of that chain or not, you're not allowed to wear chain. so no one's allowed to wear chains I don't think you should wear well, then in that case, don't wear anything. Well then you can't wear the religious. you can't if you're not alled to wear anything, take it off. Yeah. You know, take it off. you know, if it's you know, something like infection control or you're going to drop your wedding ring inside some your own. Yes perish the thought You wouldn't be able to go throughort airport security barriers, would you without setting the whole thing off Exactly. Are we confident that we can easily navigate the difference between a religion and a political position I think if you're wearing an Israeli flag, for example, sorry, my dogs bark, you I'll let you go. And I'll just because I was going to be completely nineteen eightyies phone in host at that point and go, o, what about a Satanist Should a Satanist be allowed to wear the mark of the beast while working in the NHS. If you've just tuned in probably should rewind a bit to get a little bit of context there Um I'm not quite that guy. It's eleven forty six. James O'Brian on LBC. Listen on your smart speaker, justust say Clay LBC It is eleven fifty and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. justust reference to the conversation In the first hour of the programme there's a really beautiful piece on the OBC website at the moment by Claudia Vint who was a survivor of the Fishmonger's haall attack as it has become known. and she witnessed her Merit who died that day. She witnessed attempts to turn that murder into a political moment also witnessed Jack's father's refusal to let it become one, pointing out that Jack himself would have become livid his death being used to advance political agendas. and she's written incredibly powerfully and very helpfully about exactly where the lines and the parameters should be at a time when of course just as in the past Lee Rigby's family have been ignored and this week, Henry Novak's family have been completely ignored and Alice Gross's family were completely ignored When she was murdered in my neck of the woods not long ago, that horrible practice that many, many members of the media and many politicians engage in, Aaudiiaos has written the best account I've read of essentially why in this case, Henry Novak's family deserve better. so I do heartily, heartily and heavily recommend that eleven fifty one is the time Back to the question of Whether Satanists should be able to wear badges in NHS, That's a joke. whether or not all badges displaying political affiliations, but not necessarily religious ones should be banned or NHS staff should be banned from wearing Holly's in Camden, Holly, what would you like to say Hi Jay. Hello N I was going to come at it from a point of view of badges and for mental health. Could I just quickly comment on the Trade union. Yeah, of course you'a thing. Yeah. Most of the larger unions like and unite Uniston will have legal recognition agreements with employers So by that way, the employer is basically sort of recognising agreeing with the union. So that may be something that factor in if you've got a a union badge. That was all.'s a good point. In terms of mental health. And Obviously, we still have some of the same infection prevention risks, but we also need to work on that degree of risk assessment as well. you know was inpatient community might be slightly different. You talk about cou couple point earlier, I would not wear a popy with a pin on an inpatient Of course you wouldn't if I is getting to be a community patient, I may wear a poppy on my height and you know, and as well, that would come down to knowing your patient, knowing your patient's history. and you know, if somebody obs served, then it might be very appropriate Yeah, I mean, but equally if all political symbols are banned then the poppy would be on the list, wouldn't it? Well, exactly. And this is it gets really difficult. I would say So Certainly for in patient mental health, I would agree because one of your basic partart of obviously for medication and one of your basic treatment is forming that trusting relationship And that could be hard to do if you're advertising the fact that you hold an opinion that your patient might be diametrically or passionately opposed. evenven if they're not normally, people's belief systems can change when they're unwell, they can be quite extreme when they're unwell. I would always say I personally would want to be on the surface blank canvas to my patient. Until I get to know them, they get to know me. we have that relationship. It's nicely put have that conversation about. Beautifully put and absolutely I can't find a single hing to dispute in what you've said accept Thank you very much because Well I said accept thenen. you jumped in. And I've run. You jumped in just as I was saying, accept that. I I'm going to ruin it now, but no I'm not going to ruin it now because I just wondered whether it would be particularular to your branch of medicine. I these arguments are obviously applicable in the context of mental health, not necessarily if I'm going to have my bunions done I don't know, but you don't know, do you? I don't know you're not You have a time toasted on your head saying o by the way, I have mental health difficulties. I No, you're right, though, I think it should you know. I take it back when I was waiting. and I think you know, we We just can't make assumptions about everybody. and you know I'm a human with a personality But I also think I should be a blank canvas as a professional. Yeah. And of course, in some ways, I suppose Fara's point was that she as a patient should be a blank canvas as well because she was worried that Perhaps what she was wearing might have engendered a slightly negative response in one of the people she encountered last time she was in hospital. A lovely cool. Thankk you, Holly. I've got idiots callner U Good lord. whoo'd have thought in this one? Interesting how you cut off Fara just as she was about to share her thoughts on the Israeli flag Yes U Farret announced that her dog was barking and therefore she had sort of lost her thread in the point that she was making at the moment. Well clearly for anybody with four brain cells, she was pointing out that the star of David is a religious symbol which she would be comfortable with, while the Israeli flag is a political symbol which she would not. I'm happy to explain that to you because obviously your point comes from the comes from the position of believing that I am some sort of shill for the Israeli government. and it's nice to be reminded that you're still out there Are you irredeemable flump Allison is in Crawley, Alison, what would you like to say Oh, hi, Jason. I totally agree with you all last Pul. I trained as a nurse in nineteen seventy seven and retired now. And back then, we were absolutely not allowed to wear anything whatsoever on our uniforms other than our name badge and our hospital, our qualification, if you like, is a sort of And that was absolutely it. and you weren't allowed to wear your uniform. And my goodness, you'd have been sat for wearing your uniform to a march. And the point about it, it isn't about making judgments and why it should be absolute like this is because patients come into hospital You know, they're in all sorts of states. They're incredibly vulnerable, they can be anxious, they can be terrified, you know and so and so forth. They really don't need to be having any kind of even thought process around the conversations that you have had with various people this morning. Nobody needs that on top of dealing with their diagnosis and their health. You don't even need to have to think, gosh, what does that budge mean? I I wonder if she'll be allright. And you've got enough worries. It is inappropriate and unprofessional And it has grown over the years. And I think you're absolutely right for any number of reasons, but I actually think just a blanket ban, you have nothing on your uniform. And what that previous lady who very rudely I can't remember her name, but you know what she's talking about a blank canvas, That's exactly what I I thought you were calling her rude then, Alison. But you mean you were being rude might not be able to remember Holly in Camden's name. Holly Camden That's all right And My ears picked up then, I thought I someone been rude, I I didn't notice it. I clipp it neck. Sorry, C. She's entire great phrase a blank canas. and it is about mental health and everybody has mental health, not just patients who are being treated for their mental health And we need to respect that. And it is not appropriate to have your union badge or your political allegiance or your gay pride badge. And you know I'm someone who has I would describe myself as extremely liberal and supportive. It'll never catch on these causes, but that is not the appropriate place to do it. And also just to add a little bit of stuff that As nurses and doctors and health professionals generally We treat people without fear or favour. So we will treat people who are racist. And in extreme in war, you will get nurses treating casualties from the other side. So casualties who have inflicted wounds on your own soldiers, because that's what you do professionally you know, just as Stop C this, noobbody has a right to We weren't allowed to wear crosses No. No or No And of course just because certain members of the community could portray that as an attack upon Christianity as long as their audience didn't do any thinking or reading of their own. O of course on this occasion, you could claim that this is evidence of Israeli powers controlling discourse and banning nurses from wearing pro Palestinian symbols It doesn't matter how loudly they shout this stuff, it won't make it true. It's done for the reasons that you and almost all of my callers have rather Rather brilliantly articulated But It's just not the appropriate place. What about Blue Peter bad What You monster. You absoluteute monster But I take you a point, loveovely stuff. Thankk you Alison. The time now is approaching twelve noon. You are listening to James O,, were doing the thing. I thought we might just hit the twelve noon and I'd go to the news on time. but we all like the thing because the thing gives me an opportunity. the thing gives me an opportunity to remind you what is coming up next and sometimes I have to check the date. Or at least the day Thursday, this is the day, which means it is God willing, time for Mystery yourour weekly opportunity to achieve the sort of satisfaction not ordinarily available anywhere else on your radio. You notice what I do differently now, Keith, have you noticed? I don't say dial anymore. It was pointed out to me. It made me sound old and somewhat anachronistic because people don't really have radio well done boomer, says Keith I don't say D, it's anywhere on your radio. It is an opportunity to solve mysteries, to unravel riddles and to undo enigmas