Farage and the Two Tier Policing Claim

This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien Three minutes after ten is the time. I have been wrestling since yesterday's programme with the question of how two public statements made by two people, one of whom deserves to be at the very center of a story, and one of whom does not but is desperate to be portray such profoundly different perspectives. And it's got worse, not better in the interim. I've just listened to somebody trying to claim that the police officers turned up at the scene of Henry Novak's murder, somehow determined to believe in a racial element to it I've read the sentencing notes that the judge provided. I presume that Martin Novak was in court for every day of that trial and there is absolutely no evidence to base that on. I've listened to quite a lot of gibberish diversity guidelines without anybody mentioning that it is all filed under a document that states It underpins our efforts to police with courage, empathy and respect, delivering a service that is anti discriminatory I've listened to politicians trying to claim that there is an anti white bias in the British police, and I've thought not for the first time that that must be the end of it now Surely everybody's going to wake up and go, no, we can't get any more bonkers than this But we can, and part of the reason that we can is that things that are really easy to understand And people for whatever reasons, and we may work out some of them a little later in the program are determined not to see it They are determined to ignore the evidence of their own eyes and ears So, for example In the aftermath of the release of that hideous and heartbreaking footage of Henry Novak, which I will tell you more about shortly Two men stepped up in public to make separate statements. One of them got what they wanted It was not this one We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism. this is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder You're going to hear that a lot today becausecause Everybody it seems, is determined to defy the wishes of that grieving father who was in court, I imagine, I confess to you, I haven't double checked, but one imagines that he or other members of his family were in court for every single day of this trial. They heard all the testimony, they heard all of the evidence, and they will certainly, as I have tried to do, work their way through some of the sentencing notes released by the judge in the case And he is adamant and clear that this was not about racism. He could be wrong Equally if I was sitting here today dealing with another hideous case of a kid being killed and the parents insisted that it was about racism and I didn't think that it was, I would be. peed to tell you what my truth is, what I think is the case and to do that, I would pour over evidence. I would look for all of the insights, all of the commentary, all of the notes that I could find and explain why regretfully I'm going to argue with that parent. And I'm going to tell them that actually their child wasn't killed because of the color of their skin. As people tried to do not long ago, well than quite a long time ago in the case of Stehen Lawrence Listen to his words And then just reflect for a moment on all of the people queueuing up to essentially Tell him to shut up and sit down We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism. this is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder. Sorry, Mark, you're wrong. I've just heard a bloke on the radio who insists it's all about racism. Those police turned up determined to believe the brown person and not the white person because they've had some sort of diversity training. sorry, mate Not listening to you today. I'm sorry about your sonndying and everything, but it is absolutely about racism. Nigel Farrich said so Some people roll out the red carpet for him to do so and stay silent while he calls for actual riots. And guess what? The riots happen Oh, sorry, what you think I'm exaggerating? Oh But I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure told Rge I wonder what that sounds like. I suggest the rest of us resespond to this with pure told Rge So The British media this morning and to a lesser extent yesterday morning, had a choice They had a very clear and simple choice. the British political establishment had a very clear and simple choice They could either take the side of this man We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism, This is not a case about racism. This is a case about murder O they could side with this man. I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure told Rge And you can tell From the front pages, from the commentary, from the lies, from the ignorance that they have largely, if not almost entirely decided to side with the second man, which is extraordinary. And just while I'm getting things off my chest And this is an entirely futile plea Can we take Henry's name out of the mouths of these people? They're not Henry Novak protesters. They're not there to pursue any sort of cause. They are acting in direct contradiction of his own father's plea I say to you sometimes that I mean, I use it as a bit of a figorous speech. It's a thraway line. I think I'm going mad or I wonder whether I'm the only person who can see what I can see. But that struck me. that juxtap position of clips. Stuck me as so crystalline that anybody not seeing it has chosen not to. Anybody not seeing it has chosen to insult Henry Novak's memory, to defy the expressed wishes of his father, and to side instead with a serial liar and rancid racist. Dperation for riots yesterday was as clear as it was in the immediate aftermath of the Southport murders, when he spread and help to amplify all sorts of lies and nonsense It's not about him today It's actually in large part about the media And I'm not going to apologize to you for repetition because some people really need to hear this stuff. Some people who do what I do for a living need to work out whether they're going to listen to Henry Novak's father We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism This is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder but whether they're going to platform and U indulge possibly even roll out a red carpet for this man. I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure told Rge So People who were in court every day for this trial will be unsurprised what I am about to share. Almost every voice you've heard commenting on the subject will be well they will have their fingers in their ears at this point and they'll be pretending that they can't hear Because the judge was obviously very interested in how the hell those horrible scenes that we have all possibly have unfolded And guess what? He provides answers It doesn't preempt any inquiries, and it certainly doesn't involve inventing motivations for the officers who attended that are based on precisely zero evidence It's about lies It's about liars It's about the likelihood of the police going first to the liars if it was the liars that called the police in the first place No mention of colour, I'm respecting Martin Novak's request Lag. Plaintive cry that we recognize what he knows to be true, that this is not about racism. Another consequence of those lies, wrote the judge Pointlessly in the eyes of many so called commentators. Another consequence of those lies is that the attending police officers honestly believed that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting Henry had committed an offence and arrested him with the consequence that he was handcuffed for about a minute before his condition further deteriorated and the arresting officer began CPR The police were given a convincing but wholly false narrative of the incident It was dark and Henry was wearing a dark top The entry damage caused by the knife through it would not have been obvious Whilst there was visible blood on Henry, it would not have clearly been seen coming from that wound, and the clearly visible facial wound was not life threatening Henry was complaining that he had been stabbed and was struggling to breathe, but that would not have necessarily told the officers how serious the situation had become It is the experience of the criminal courts that sometimes someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury in the hope they may be released. Police officers were faced with having to make quick decisions in pressurized circumstances about the best way to act The genuine shock to the particular police officer when he realized that he had been giving CPR to Henry, when he had a serious chest wound tends to show that he was doing his best in a very difficult situation No mention of race, no mention of seekhism, no mention of ethnicity, no mention of bias against white Bias against white British police services. That is the moment when you realise something very, very dark and very, very ugly is happening in this country becausecause they are ignoring the express wishes of a dead boy's father jumping instead upon a bandwagon assembled by various bigots and criminals and pretending to believe being white in this country somehow marks you out for negative discrimination But you know, the language of these documents that everybody is pretending to either have read or to be cross abouted isn't even particularly provroocative or inflammatory, twenty twenty three Hampsire and Isle of White Contstabulary published a race action plan. Do you want to know why pololice services had to publish race action plans, because police officers have for decades been demonstrably and routinely racist towards suspects and members of the public. That's not an opinion, that's counting I think Hampshire in Idw., is it ninety six percent white? I think Andy Hugh said. How does that even work? A ninety six percent white police force is anti white You're well done Anyway, it published a race action plan, setting out a clear commitment to nurture an ethical and inclusive culture. This is what they're cross about The people inventing utterly bogus motives for the actions of those police officers don't want to live in a country where the police have a clear commitment to nurture an ethical and inclusive culture that would, and I quote, underpin our efforts to police with courage, empathy and respect, delivering a service that is anti discriminatory I want these police to be investigated. I let you watch that footage and don't actually come away from the sentencing notes, convinced that the police officers involved could not have helped what happened. That's what investigations are for. I think it's time somebody pointed out that the suggestion or indeed the insistence that what happened to Henry Noak happened because of the color of his skin or the color of his perpetrator's skin is right now entirely without foundation and to extrapolate from that entirely unevidenced claim that we live in a country where being white somehow renders you more likely to suffer at the hands of a biased police force is actually beyond insane Chris Fhelt stood up in the House of Commons yesterday And because again, you know, not as bad as some of the people even further to the right than him, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the nexts to defect and tried to turn it into a political opportunity He writes in the Times today about the murderer in Nottingham who Aain, I think it's a bit silly of me not to mention names. I don't know why some names stick in my craw and some names don't. But he said the name in the House of Commons yesterday, so I'll repeat it. Apparently, the fact that Valdo Calicane, who murdered three people in Nottingham was not previously sectioned by mental health professionals because they thought there was a quote overreresentation of young black males in mental health detention. That's proof of anti white bias or that's proof of being too concerned about racism How many times do you think that man that murderer was sectioned Listening to Chr Philip in the House of Commons yesterday, or reading his comments in the Times today. We recently learned that Velddo Calicane was not previously sectioned by How many times it none, right? You'd think let's just narrow it down. Let's say in the two years prior to the crimes that he committed, how many times was he not sectioned because he was black He was sectioned four times between and good. and he clearly should have been sectioned another time, but to claim that he' suddenly or somehow Actually, I shouldn't even have said that I wasn't part of the assessment process, but you have senior politicians standing up in the House of Commons, failing to mention that this bloke who apparently didn't get sexioned because he was black got sectioned four times in the previous two years You turn then to the Southport murderers where one teacher at some point in his past, and this is a man who was protected to a, in my view, borderline criminal degree by his own parents One teacher was supposedly told that the depiction of him or the warning that he might be a danger was potentially racist or indulging in racial stereotyping, but it didn't stop him being excluded from school It didn't stop him being essentially confined to his home where he was protected to a borderle criminal degree by his own parents. It had absolutely nothing to do color of his skin I'm looking for other examples of this bias. So inevitably I turn to the Daily Mail, and I read the frankly ridiculous Sarah Vine, citing the horrors of the Manchester arerena terror attack and mentioning one security guard who apparently thought the bomber looked dodgy but didn't say anything because he was worried about being called racist If you want to be believed Having failed utterly at doing your job, then just claim that you were worried about being called racist. If you were too lazy and incompetent to go after rapists in northern towns, then just say that you were worried about being called racist becausecause these people will line up you They will believe you But they won't believe people who are actual victims of racism Ohit Want a little bit of help thisth. I should give you some breaking news actually. eleven officers and one police dog injured last night after violent clashes in South Hampton Do you think that rage was pure enough, Nigel Was that rage cold enough for you, or do you want a little bit more like you got last time Do you want some hotels to be set on fire? Maybe some police barracks? Do we still have police barracks Maybe find a police officer when they're off duty and just attack them. Would that be pure enough for you, Nigel? Would that be cold enough for you Would that be enough rage Listen to Henry Novak's father We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism This is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder M ignnore him James O'Brien on LBC. Listen on your smart speaker, just say Clay LBC. twenty one minutes after ten is the time. And so that's where our attention moves next. In many ways, it's a question about why so many people, whether it is the serial criminal Stephen Yaxley Lennon, the serial liar, Nigel Farrage or their various cheerleaders and supporters in the British media, can move so quickly and so contemptuously to dismiss the words, the dignified words of Henry Novak's father. And that that is The first part of the question, it may be a question that only they can answer that I want your help with is the point of it. of it. What's the point of the claims about anti white bias? What are they trying to achieve It began with two tier policing. Can you remember what two tier policing was about? Was it the idea that the police go go softly. on some people, but not on others because of the color of their skin which is completely at odds with just about every statistical example of statistical evidence that you could find over the course of the last fifty years. Was it the fact that a woman could call for a poggrom on social media literally call for entirely innocent people to be burnt to death in their beds. and get arrested and jailed for it. And yet somebody who, I don't know, did something completely different did not get arrested in jail. Do you even remember how it began? We talked, didn't we about how Donald Trump deploys the tactics of wrestling you you you You spare people the difficulty of thinking. in wrestling You just give them something to cheer and you give them something to boo and you give it to them so neat and so pure and possibly cold that they don't have to stop to think about anything. Just shout to te a Kir at the top of your voice. Do not for goodness' sake, let anybody ask you to explain yourself They're not funny anymore, those vox pops, are they? When people stick a microphone in front of somebody chanting slogans like that and they haven't got the first idea what they're actually talking about or protesting about any more than they could tell you why they cheer on that wrestler and they boo that wrestler But it takes hold of a population and people who I spent almost all of my career thinking would know better and do better Who else is thinking of that Wh gooes Nazi article in Harper's magazine this morning? You spend your entire career thinking people would do better and would know better and it turns out that they don't It turns out that they don't. They listen to Mark Novak's words and they go, Yeahah, sorry, Pal H's Uncle Nigel with this cold pure rage So what's the next bit about? because I don't know. I enjoy enormous privilege. I am white, I am straight, I am middle class, I am privately educated, I am happily married, I am all the things that apparently should be marking me out for abuse from the forces of law and order. but I am not of colour. So I do not understand racism in the ways that other people do I mean, I get a little bit of anti Irish sentiment into the studio, but when I click on those people, they hate the brown people and the black people, a hell of a lot more than they hate me. So what is this bit of the move about? What's this bit of the grift all about You can tell how pathetic it is by the examples that they cite Let's claim a man wasn't sexionred because he was black. Don't mention the fact that he was sexured four times, four times in two years, previous to his hideous offenses Let's not mention the fact that the judge, never mind the father of the victim, has made it clear that race played no part in this story You can stick a microphone in front of the serial criminal Stephen Yaxle Lennin, if you absolutely must. Maybe mention all the crimes that he's committed. When he battered a white police officer at the beginning of his criminal record, was that because the officer was white I mean, was the officer even white? Do we know?ould it matter if he was? Would it be a racist attack? if the person whose head he stamped on was a white police officer So stick a microphone in front of these people if you absolutely must. But goodness, M ask them questions about what on earth They're talking about What on earth? they're talking about how many people are murdered, how many crimes are committed in this country? If there was any trend here, if there was any example that supported this ludicrous narrative, you'd be able to name all of them You'd been able to name all of them And you can't because there isn't What's it about? That's the bit I want your help with today. What is it about? What is the ludicrous, but unfortunately, I mean, Kemmy Badenoock, so I'm not going to take a call before halfpast againan if We had a break. we have. good. We forgot yesterday. Kemy Badenoock is comparing it to Stephen Lawrence or claiming that it is a Stephen Lawrence moment. Stephen Lawrenis's murderers remained at large for decades. fourour people suspected of killing him remained at large forever I think one of them went to his grave without ever having facace trial Stephen Lawrence was killed by a racist mob and the police failed utterly Henry Novak was killed by one man who was arrested immediately and is already in jail. Where is the parallel here Where is the parallel except in this warped worldview Black people have had it too easy We've gone too easy on them God, lookook at all the fuss that was made when Stephen Lawrence was killed by a racist mob who never got arrested. It's exactly the same as this white man who was not killed by a racist mob whose father was in court every single day and insists it was not about racism. But for Kemy Badenhott it's yeah, yeah. Yeahah, it's the same, but the other way around Yeah He's in jail already? What are' we going to learn from this case Oh, Okay. well, anyway, I'm writing it for the Daily Mail, so no one's going to have ever asked me to explain myself anyore than Chris Pilip is going be ask to explain why he didn't mention the fact that Valdo Calican got sectioned four times. in an article claiming that he didn't get sectioned because he was black What's it about this bit of the story? this bit of the grift? Because I've watched it grow and I've listened to them say, I'm not racist. I just have profound problems with some of the finer detail of the Quran Oh, okay Okay, Mr Kuranic schcholar talkalk me through what your problems are and remind me why we shouldn't bring literal interpretations of any other religion into the I'm not racist. Theikhs are allright. Yeahah, got wrong and now he's a Sikh. Turns out they're all bad too I'm not racist. I've got legitimate concerns about immigration But these people aren't immigrants Yeah, but their grandfathers, their grandparents were, No Vaka sounds to me like a Polish. Well, not all immigration. The Eastern Europeans are okay. Voted Brexit, did you? Oh yes I've watched it grow. It's so easy to identify the fundamental dishonesty that lies at the heart of all of it. How long is it since Farage was telling you that you shouldn't be living next door to people with Eastern European names? Ten years, eleven years, twelve years This is the new bit I don't really care where it's happening. Or rather why it's happening. whether it's because there's now a party that's even more further to the filthy right than the party that Farage runs and therefore he's worried about leaching support to someone who is more supportive or comfortable with object racism than he is because he's still trying to persuade a few people that he's not the man everybody knows he knows him to be. thinks his path to power involves wooing a few moderates who might be able to hold their nose about the history and the lies and the associations with profoundly far right characters. He thinks you're stupid. tragically In the case of much of his support is probably right So I don't really care why it's happening, but want to I want to know pl of it is. ten. that white people in this country are somehow being discriminated against by the police is so pant wettingly ridiculous. it must have deeply sinister M D isn't it? There must be something pretty horrible going on here. I want you to tell me what it is Why are the racists? And sadly, they're not confined to the fringes. They weren't just the ones throwing bricks at the police outside a police station in Southampton Soight lastast night they were writing columns for national newspapers' presenting programmes on television. and radio, they're giving speeches in the House of Commons. Why are the racists moving on to claim somehow You wouldn't want to be white in Britain in twenty twenty six If you're going to come to the attention of the police, you're much better off black. Where is this coming from? There this narrative of bogus victimhood Is it an end in itself? Is it designed to achieve something Why are they doing it Why are they doing it? And crucially, what Is it designed to achieve. And that's why I say in the same sentence, I don't care why they're doing it, and I want you to tell me why they're doing it. I don't want you to tell me he's doing it or they're doing it because they're worried about so and so, who's even more racist than they are I want to know what the end plan of all of them is. All of the people doing it, not in competition with each other, but as a homogeneous force of evil looking at the father of a murdered boy and saying, sorry, Pal, not listening to what you've got to say, We've got some race riots for men And the way to do it is by claiming that white people are victims What is that designed to do? Oher three, four, five, six zero, six zero, nine, seven Th. What is the point? of this latest in the racist grift that has engulfed our country since twenty sixteen H's Did Don with your headlin This is LBC. Message James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three tenen thirty four is the time. Can you tell when I'm capable of just carrying on till Sheila gets here. Is does something happen to my voice or I don't repeat myself as much as I often. Can you tell when we're going to crash through commercial breaks and quite possibly forget the news? Be I'm coming back now at ten thirty four, Bob and Pamela are waiting to talk to me and And and many others And I'm thinking I'm just going to do that again. I'm going to play that clip again of the man pleading with you not to pretend that his son's murder was about race. I'm just going to play that again until it's time to go home. I'm going to play it again and again and again I'm going to go up to the office and just make sure people are listening to the father of a murdered boy pleading with you not to pretend that his murder was racist or caused by racism whether on the part of the perpetrator or the police But it'd a waste of time, wouldn't it? There are none so deaf as them that cannot hear So we do what we always do. We try and work out what's going on. And the latest stage of this country's hideous descent into bigotry and division and pure cold rage is claims that white people are the victims of institutional bias. White people are the victims of institutional racism. Diversity, equality and inclusion are bad things. Empathy is evil And I don't quite know. I've got a horrible theory and I'd like to be wrong, but I want to know why you think that's where they've moved to now Bob's in Brighton Bob, what would you like to say? Hell James I'd like to speet you again. Hello, Bob I think it's depressingly simple. I think that they're doing this in order to delegitimize genuine action against racism U I think it's like if they can push a narrative that The police are introducioningly racist against white people, and we've had the history of the police being proven to be introducioningly racist against other groups then essentially the police are institutionally racist against all groups. and then there's no institutional racism. So And how do they benefit from that? Because it would mean that every allegation and every accusation of racism is automatically at the very least suspect and quite probably bogus becausecause this murdering criminal lied about being a victim of racism, let's just recognize that they're all lying. Yeah, I think it's more about how the police are handling themselves. I think you've got a grievance point being pushed here What's the grievant Well, if you, you know, if you could if you could find someone outside that police station last night who wasn't off their nut and actually ask them to explain themselves and ask them what their grievance was and ask them why they'd chosen to explicitly and violently ignore the polite and dignified request of Henry Novak's father and have the audacity to chant his name outside a police station in direct Direct temptuous. disregard of what he'd actually called for. what would they say their grievance was? I know why Stehven, Y actually Lennon has got a grievance against the police. They keep arresting him for crimes. But what about the rest of them No, I don't know think there's a legitimate grievance. I think there's a grifted grievance. what would they say? What is the grrifted grievance? Or mean these are largely people that are probably experiencing the worst of the crashing living cris this crisis is living or no, but's but he's living off of the grievance that he's able to generate, isn't he? So it is I mean it is look my life is a bit rubbish and it must be all their fault. and also the police are joining in by making my life worse than it would be if I was black because all the big jobs, all the money, all the nice c that's all gone to the black people and the brown people, and those white people have been left behind I think that's partly of why it's got some currency with some political operators at the moment. But I think the moreid insidious point is that is by claiming this thing exists when it doesn't and using the language that we've used to talk about structural racism in the past, is trying to delegitimize the real concerns of genuine racism Yeah and whitewash that. I think that's the main point. And of course, who would be most keen to delegitimize concerns about genuine racism uine racist. Well, played Bob. It's ten thirty eight. you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Anyone think of any Anone think of any genuine racists around at the moment? Can you think of any genuine? I can't think of any genuine racists around at the moment. I suggest the rest of us resespond to this pure cold maybe I can. It's ten thirty nine, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'm going to make a list and I'll probably forget it or doodle all over it, but delegitimizing. I need to get a pen that works first. Dlegitimizing is Obviously part of it, I've got a horrible feeling it is actually much more and much worse than just that, but it's a starting point, isn't it And u, you know, 've got one message here saying you're part of the problem Thanks again in touch and indeed for listening Gimm me ring and tell me why' siding with Henry's father against people who are deliberately ignoring him and indeed, I would say, treating him with hideous contempt. Tell me why siding with the father of the dead boy is somehow making me part of the problem that we're in the business of describing. And while you're on the line, you could tell me why you've decided to side with people who are fomenting violence and essentially metaphorically spitting in the face of the grieving family. and their requests. The number you need and I'll say it slowly, O three Five, six. Oh S. Oh nine. seven ree And remember, we'll start by working out why you've decided tellell Mark Novak to sit down and be quiet because you've got some violence and some rage that you want to articulate under the pretense that it's somehow motivated or prompted by racism Srees in Liverpool, Sree, what's going on Hi, James. I think it's sometimes very hard to keep a straight fade when you're doing all of that, but anyways, thank you for taking. We need light and shade Sree in this life if we don't have, I mean both both ethnically and also I would say in terms of mood music. more light anded shade. carry on. Absolutely. So first of all, just let me first start with explaining the situation, what's happening clelearly grief is getting weaponized. How is it happening? By using genuine grievance of what has happened, amplifying that into a group threat and using that for political profit. You can call it the Gap model if you want. It's a nice tight accent if you prefer The GapP model So so something genuine happens and then the then it's used to stoke a grievance that is not genuine and that is when the gap is crossed I wasm more thinking of G for genuine grievance, A for amification of it into a group threat and B for political profit. Oh wow. Okaykay. Is that an established trope or is it your own world as something that I just came up That's brillant mate, carry on, I'll be quiet now would I say that. I never am, but I'll try. That's absolutely fine. I think so you spoke about bogus victimhood and why. I think there are three clear actors in this regard. So the one are the true believers. the true believers are those who think that there is a simple yes or no black and white, easy villain minorities, the immigrants, the DEI, the bureaucrats, all of those people are to blame. Everything is a simple problem and it can be solved not by a complicated set of solutions, but by externally attributing every problem to one group So you make things easier. So that is one set of people The second are the opportunists, this is where the L Savia Faraz comes in who uses white victimhood as a technique to drive engagement because obviously everybody is engaged. noobody wants to see what happened and everybody's riled up and angry about it. The point is you use that anger and say, this is a grievance because white people are being institutionally abused, if you want to call it that.. And I'm white, therefore I should be angry as long as I don't stop to ask for evidence or proof. And if I do, they're going to talk to me about a bloke who didn't get sectioned because he was black without mentioning that he got sexioned four times in two years Exactly. And finally, I think the right question to be asking is why do you want white people as a persecuted group or want to say that white people are being blamed or victimized? The thing is, if you do that, then diversity policies and discriminations against them can be removed the immigration becomes an existential threat, multiculturalism becomes the enemy, then protecting white culture becomes self defense. it does not become supremacy. So if you want to go from taking a white supremacist argument and making that easily more palatable, if you make it a self defense argument, you are framing legitimate grievance into something that is more easier to frame ethnic nationalist policies against. So that is what is happening. And some of them say the quiet part out loud and they can because they're the richest man in the world. they're not saying defend. They're saying you're going to be under attack. so go out and attack Yeah, the fundamental problem is there are everything associated with this is a wicked problem. It has multiple different avenues and the simple solution is not possible. There's underfunding schools, collapsing high streets, and it'' waiting list, the AI of it all. It is a multifaceted problem for which you need solutions at various different levels but that is a nice And the first thing And the first thing it needs is investments in policies that are designed to calm the waters, not to roil them up further. And the first thing that these monsters call for is to get rid of the policies that are put in place to calm the waters. I don't know if you were listening yesterday when Liz rang in, Liz Webster, whose son Henry was attacked by Asian students at his high school in two thousand And seeven suffered three fractures to his skull. and she said a large part of the reason why it happened was that we were not having Diversity, equality and inclusion training in that school. Things were not recognized. People didn't know what to do in certain circumstances. And that is why the violence happened. You don't achieve less violence by taking away attempts to minimize violence. Do you work in this field or are you just an incredibly gifted amateur? I suppose I can describe myself as an incredibly consid amateur and also somebody who's hoping to teach undergraduate students at a university in a couple of weeks, which is something that I'm going to be starting today. Yeah. they're very lucky to have you S. and so are we today. Can it be stopped I think it is going to be very, very difficult to be stared on especially on social media because it's very easy that there has become a cesspool of right wing hetonist now white nationalism basically. the easiest thing to do is to use the same trobes that they're using against them Wh you spoke about Trump and how eas how easily he uses the WWE analystically to perpetrate everything that he does, you could try and do the same things. If you change how you call a certain person If you want to call Nigel Ferrage, Nigel farar right every single time and you make that the first thing everybody hears, then maybe a collective sense of whether that is true or not, you can get people to be it because that is the same thing these people do. They say white people are being perpetrated againstets stupid zero. Even though all of that is false, that repetition is what drives believe that Somebody's repeating this every single time for years and years and years, sureurely they must not be lying. sureurely, they should know what they're talking about, but they clearly don't. They just keep repeating the same thing over and over again. So if you want to repeat the truth and the actual policies and the real victims in all of this, then maybe you could do the same thing, but I don't know if the current government is capable of doing that And that's another question for another. It is, and of course the current owner of at least one major social media platform is deliberately engineering it so that those voices are either minimized or removed entirely while the voices promoting the untrue poison are amplified to the nth degree, even to the point where he's calling for one of the worst offenders to be prime mininister You're incredible actually, Shri. I mean, you know I actually listen I don't often listen back to calls on this program, but I'll listen back to this one because there's a lot of stuff that I want to reflect on further, not least your self assembled GAP acronym No you're brilliant. Thank you. It's ten forty seven. James O'Brien on LBC. It's ten to eleven. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC Sri isn't the only contributor to today's programe whose words are worth a lot more than mine. I don't think we can play this juxtaposition of comment from two people, one of whom would give almost anything he owns and more, not to be a public figure this week, and one of whom Well, I mean accepts millions of pounds shortly prior to reversing his decision to stop being one. secretly, of course. I don't think we can play this too often. I can tell by some elements of my inbox that this is breaking through in ways that I can't because this makes you feel deep, deep shame You probably hadn't realized that by joining in with this narrative, you were telling Mark Novak to shut up and sit down You probably hadn't realized just as with all of the other things that successful manipulators can do to half decent people, you probably hadn't realized how low you had been brought by your political heroes or your favorite journalists You probably hadn't quite grasped until you heard those clips. played alongside each other, that you had a choice. You still have a choice You either side with the grieving father or you side with the opportunistic Grifter And when you hear those clips, you can't pretend you haven't sided with the opportunistic Gifter. so you get very cross with me. and that's absolutely fine. In fact, that's great because it means you've still got a conscience. It means you haven't been so completely reduced to atavistic urges in ancient hatreds that you can't recognize the awfulness of what has been done to you You have been turned into by Nigel Farrid and others, someone who listens to the words of a grieving father and decides to ignore them So I don't think we can play this too many times. We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism. this is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder. Cammi Badenock disagrees. She says it's a Stehen Lawrence moment, a moment that was entirely racism and I wish we didn't have to play the next bit in partnership with those words, but of course we do because you have to pick as side. I suggest the rest of us respond to this with pure, cold rage. Nigel Farage emerging from hiding yesterday to make statements where he was not questioned, of course, because people would immediately be asking him about the five million pound secret gift that he told nobody about And of course, the subsequent claims that his phone has been hacked by Russian spies, so he didn't take questions at the end of yesterday's bizarre statement, inststead he confined himselfves to sorts of interviews with people he was confident wouldn't ask him any difficult questions at all. But if you're wondering what pure cold rage sounds like, well you know now So what's the next bit about this claim that white people are discriminated against, that there's a race bias against white mean C you imagine a person of color who's had any dealings with the police at all coming away saying God, I'm glad I'm black I'll tell you what, lads, it's a good job on'm Brown, because otherwise I might have had a really tough time from those police officers. O well, I think you'll find that Henry Noobvat's killer was Brown, and I think you'll find' serving life in prison Unlike many of the people suspected of murdering Stephen Lawrence And If we stay with this subject in the next hour, I would ask you why on earth they are bringing Stephen and George Floyd into this conversation? Because I genuinely need a little bit of help understanding that. I know the answers aren't going to be pretty or logical or sane. But they're going to help us understand what this next stage of the racist grift. that all began as a way of getting us out of the European Union, ripping off The The sort of concrete caps that had been put upon the wells of bile and ancient hatred by what we called at the time political correctness, rendering racism terly unacceptable in some public spheres. You couldn't as a politician complain about the colour of an actor's skin in an advert for I don't know mops cars you can now, you don't get fired, don't get disciplined, go on the tail us hill. There's too many brown faces, there's too many black faces. It's all b pololitical correctness or whatever you prefer to call it was doing an incredible job of telling these people that their vile opinions are not welcome in our society. And those Barriers have been Removed, those barricades have been completely and utterly obliterated, and they're still not happy They're not happy they're allowed to be racist again now. They're not happy that they can call for people to be burnt to death in their beds and greeted as folk heroes on social media and reform UK partarty conference platforms. they're not happy that they can publicly say there's too many brown faces on the black. They want more And the first thing they want is an acknowledgement that it's really hard being white in modern Britain Why are they doing that Pamel' in York Pam., would you like to They Well, really to me, it seems like this has been engineered over time. far more than coincidence and The best way to control people to get them to do what you want is to make them fear And we've seen it with the issue of gender We are seeing it with people on benefits being set against those not on benefits and It's pretty it kind of sorry, it kind of makes me feel sick. That' how it doeses. I'm sorry. ye, I know my history James and And I believe that we are being kind of directed away from very relevant information about certain things That means people can work out for themselves what Mr. Farage and his friends are very lightly up to So Suppose what we learn from history is that pivot from abuse to victimhood Is the pivot from being given permission to hate Most obviously, I suppose, in nineteen thirties, Germany, Jews, although of course That hatred was not confined to Jewish people being given didid the Nazis have a narrative of victimhood? Were they? Yeah, that's the stab in the back theory, isn't it? which I mean might be chronologically slightly different, but the idea that we are We are victims. But you know, I nearly asked you a question I can answer. I used to do this during Brexit. if there's a hundred people in a room And someone runs in and shouts, There's a lion coming And fifty two people in the room run out at full speed, trample over each other, injure themselves They're so desperate to get out of the room because someone is convinced that there's a lion coming. Yeah. And forty eight people remain in the room and just sit there going, off course there isn't a lion coming. I mean Doncaster That's the response to fear. and it's not actually the fault of the fifty two people who've legged it out of the room. It's the fault of the bloke who shouted. Lam James, I'm guilty of it that I've seen certain things online And I have bitten back and I have kind of used some very choice language. and I think that what we've got to try and remember is The majority up until very recently of people in the United Kingdom a very decent individuals. A you sure? I am sure I think they have been played, they have been indoctrinated because one of the things that has been pointed out that again seems to have been lost somewhere is that it has been acknowledged by GCHQ that we are currently and experienceus Russian interference.. We have a reform exMP who was reform MP at the time in prison Wels in the Welsh Parliament. but yeah just details, are? Yep, sorry, sorry. And yet we're still not seeing that half of these comments, in fact, it's more than that it's apparently eighty percent That are controlling narratives, feeding information and inflaming anger and resentment and fear are coming from automated books. So what's Chris Philp doing? Why is Cammy Bady not bringing Stephen Lawrence into it? I mean, I can see the people that might benefit from Russian interference, it's quite easy to spot, as you say, they have mentored Russian spies in the past and they've sort of hung out with Russian ambassadors while claiming that they'd never met them And they take five millions and millions of pounds secretly from God knows how many oligarchs and billionaires because of course the point is that they do it secretly. But why would Chris Philip be joining him with this? I have to be very careful with me onser J. Okay. Well, don't like anybody and don't swear. but apart from that I would just say hypothetically speaking fourteen years of Tares Most of which, hypothetically speaking, could now be in reform with a few strragglers concerns me very deeply Okay, so it is, I mean part of the not just the process of radicalization, but also of denial of responsibility for all the things that are bad, being incredibly facilitated by blaming it all on Well foreigners on a Monday and police officers on a Tuesday. And of coursees on. Sorry, James. that's the other thing. The other kind of technique from last century that we all know about is you destabilize, you weaken, you ridicule every system that we have, every bit of infrastructure. and we've heard that word James Infrastructure has been attacked. We have had that stated to us. You have not just not just by foreign actors. Paul Daker was attacking high courourt judges during Brexit enemies of the people. I mean, the only word of caution I offer up to your analysis is that I'm not quite sure how significant a role some of these Oline and agents and St. Petersburg factactories actually play in the I mean it's chicken and egg for me. because you got the editor of the Daily Mail attacking high court judges in a way that meembers of Adolf Hitler's inner circle would have been proud of Why do you need all these Russans funded organizations or individuals doing doing their work for them And I'm not saying one exists and the other doesn't. They definitely both exist, but I think as my age, I'm more interested still in the in the people who I would once have sat next to in an office or broken bread with at an event, who are now writing articles based on absolute White supremacist mythology And I don't fully understand why. And two of the questions that are contingent upon that confusion are why are they bringing Stephen Lawrence and George Floyd into a murder that the im's father states has nothing to do with racism another moment to reflect, isn't it? Why are they doing that? This is a genuine question, which I might attempt to answer. after the news, but I would and I know I often say this and you probably don't believe me because the evidence doesn't really support my insistence I'd rather hear your explanation This is LBC fromr Global, leading Britain's Cversation with James O'Brien Five minutes after eleven is the time, you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where I want to just establish something for you that is again somethingomet that you probably haven't noticed yourself, and that's fine because I get paid to do this and you don't So Chris Philip, Shadow Home Secretary, although one of the people that have given Nigel Farag's party a lot of money and being rewarded with a job also calls himself Shadow Home Secretary, I think. So it's hard to tell theseays, honestly you wait ages for one Shadow Home Scretary to come along and then two to come along at once. And former policing minister, of course, and so somebody who was literally in charge, well the police officers who Alleged incompetence is the one area that we can all agree we should be upset about with regard to the killing or the death of Henry Novak. He was in charge while the service was both recruiting and training those people, or at least his party was. But he's written for the Times today, under the headline, two tier policing is putting many innocent lives at risk So I turn to this because I'm a sweet summer child and my naivety knows no bounds, thinking, ah, well he'll have some examples of two tip policing He'll be able to point out where Being white has made your life harder than being black or being black has made your life easier than being white. By the police because we're talking about two tier policing. Chris Philipps, shhadow homeome Secretary, writing in the Times newspaper, a paper of record once. about two tier policing Now I'll read it so that you don't have to int one, example number one of two tier policing. We recently learnnt that Valdo Calicaine, who murdered three people in Nottingham was not previously sectioned by mental health professionals because they thought there was an overrepresentation of young black males in mental health detention Okay Well, there is an over reppresentation of young black males in mental health detention, but coming away from that claim that statement Could you, Chris Philip, explain to me what that has to do with the police How is that an example of tutor policing? A decision taken by mental health services not to section somebody How is that anything to do with the police Oh, and why didn't you mention that he was sectioned four times in the two years prior to his crimes. Four times, two years, Chris Phils. So number one, your example of two tier policing has absolutely nothing to do with the police, and your claim that he wasn't sectioned is demonstrably untrue, not once, not twice, not thice, but four times in two years. I mean, is Lyar a big enough word to describe this man I've written an artle about two tier policing. How many examples of two tier policing do you provide? Well, so far none, let's go on Uh I don't want to say his name. The Southport Killer' head teacher. was accused of racial stereotyping by pointing out the risk he posed. Okay, where are the police involved in that process? And this is the head teacher Of a school from which he was subsequently expelled, right? So obviously the risk that he posed was both acknowledged and dealt with. but hey, well I've got you, Chris Where's the police's involvement in this process? How is this evidence of two tier policing, Chris Phil You've given me an example of a man who wasn't sectioned? but was f times And the decision on the fifth occasion not to do so was absolutely nothing to do with the police. And you've got a claim from a former head teacher that she was accused of racial stereotyping before the bloke that she was talking about was actually disciplined and expelled from the school that she ran. So where are the police involved in this? And how is an example of two tier anything And that's it Those are the examples That's it. That's the shadow H homeome Secretary claiming that two tier policing is putting many innocent lives at risk informing some of the fury that wasn't drug induced that we saw outside that police station in Southampton last night, they are being told that two tier policing is putting innocent lives at risk. So they're going to go and throw some bricks at the police So what are the examples, Chris Philip And why doesn't anybody ever ask you these questions when you're in their studio What are the examples And the article concludes, Some police have been so scared of accusations of racism they have allowed activists to hijack their policy making. and this is where it has led. Well, that must be the introduction to an article with example after example after proof after proof, after evidence after evidence after example, after proof after evidence Except you have provided precisely none. You ludicrous, ludicrous human And it would be funny It would be very, very funny If you weren't Initing and provoking and facilitating and sympathizing with this. No examples at all. And now we turn to his boss, Kemy Badenoch, who is on the front page of a newspaper that is considerably more toxic than the Times and even more detached from reality. Writing in the mail, Torory leader says police handcuffing dying white teenager falsely accused of racism must be a turning point urn to the judge. And what he actually had to say because if you want to say anything with absolute certainty about Cami Badenoch, it is that she won't have done the reading And here are the sentencing guidelines. It is the experience of the criminal courts that sometimes someone arrested and handcuffed will feign injury in the hope they may be released. These police officers were faced with having to make quick decisions in pressurized circumstances about the best way to act The genuine shock to the particular police officer went, o why am I bothering? Why bother with the facts? Why bother with the people that were actually in court all day? Why bother listening Kammy Badenock to the plea of Henry's father We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism This is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder The murder of Henry Novak is a seminal moment in the fight against racism, Kenny Babernoock said today, completely and contemptuously ignoring the observations and the requests of his father. Who was in court every single day? unlike you, or indeed the editor of the Daily Mail She compared the stabbing of the eighteen year old university student to the murder of Stephen Lawrence thirty three years ago S of the people suspected of Stephen Lawis's killing have never been brought to justice The killer of Henry Novak was arrested on the night of the crime and has already been and hasn't been released from custody since Hopefully he will spend the rest of his life there The corruption. And the racism endemic in the metetropolitan Pice Svice allowed his killers to go free Two of them subsequently prosecuted and jailed four other suspects remained and remain at large Why is she bringing Stephen Lawrence into this story against the express wishes of his father That's I'm afraid, not an opinion. that's counting And why Are some of the fellow travelers on this particular bandwagon also talking about George Floyd who was murdered by a white police officer and would never have had his death. result injustice, if it wasn't for the fact that a member of the public pointed a camera at the crime while it occurred The footage that you've seen of Henry Novak's murder was released by the police the exact opposite, not just a little bit different from what happened with George Floyd, but the exact opposite. the police putting their hands up and saying We know this doesn't look good, but it's important that you know exactly what happened. In George Floyd's case, the police would have denied it as they've denied similar crimes in the past again and again and again if the footage hadn't been filmed by a member of the public. So why are these people? and we're adding this to the question of what the real purpose is of this ludicrous ludicrous, dangerous narrative Sarah Vines proof that there's two tiered policing, a security guard at the Manchester Arena who claims without any proof, evidence or supporting testimony that the reason why he didn't report on the blokey thought looked a bit dodgy who turned out to be an evil terrorist was because he was worried about being called racist. Oh yeah, absolutely,opper bottom, G gott to be true So the evidence of two ter policing, so far from some of the loudest exponents of the idea involves someone who wasn't sectioned, but was four times Somebody who was expelled from school, but whose head teacher was told not to racially stereotype him previously and a security guard who claims that the reason why he didn't with absolutely no scrutiny or examination evidence or supporting testimony, But why would you need any of that if he's helping you shore up a completely bogus claim about white people being victims? Those are your examples. those are your examples right there of two tier policing as presided by the Shadow homeome Secretary Chris Philp and the Daily Mail columnist Sarah Vine and indeed the leader of the Tory partarty. Kemmy Badenw. So why are they bringing George Floyd? And I don't know, do you need to be black to answer this question Why are they bringing George Floyd? and Stephen Lawrence into Henry Novax. Murder. Why? Oh three, four, five, six zero, six zo nine, seven. Three Why are they doing that? Because right now it completely beats me The bit about why they are ignoring the requests of his father It's not about racism. Yes, it jolly well is, Mr. Novak. Could you please sit down and be quiet? The adults are in the room now Why did they bring Stephven Lawrence and George Floyd into this conversation. Why are they so now Allow me to rephrase briefly Why aret they so desperate? bring Steh Lwrence and George Floyd into this conversation. And for the record, because there's an incredible amount of misrepresentation that goes on surrounding the Daily Mail's role in the pursuit of Stephen Lawrence's killers, they were behaving exactly as they always behave when a black boy is murdered by white people. Until the editor of the Daily Mail, Paul Daker discovered that Stehen's father, Neville was his plasterer And it is one of the finest examples in history you will ever find of, oh, I don't mean you So Stephen was immediately humanized by the fact that the editor of the Daily Mail who would historically and ordinarily have treated the murder of a young black boy by white racists very differently from how he subsequently treated Stehvens discovered that Stephen was actually a real human being related to someone that he actually knew who had been in his house. So, Ohh, I don't mean you I just mean all the other black boys, Not yours. Oviously we're going to have to get involved in this one. And the Daily Mail is currently being sued by a number of people, including Stephen Lawrence's mother, Doreen. But anyone giving a quick round of applause to Paul Daker this morning probably wouldn't tell you that bit of the story. This is LBC Message James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three hundred four five six zero sixzero nine sevven three eightighteen minutes after eleven is the time. So you ignore the wishes of Henry Novak's father, you ignore the carefully collated comments of the judge in his sentencing notes. you ignore the reality of the situation and you conclude not only that racism was an element in Henry's murder, Henry's death, but also that white people are routinely discriminated against in this country by the police, and when you are asked to provide examples, you've got absolutely none So instead You start talking about Stephen Lawrence and George Floyd to very different men who died in very different circumstances, in very different countries at the hands of very different people. racist police officer won a racist mob. Why Genuinely, have you stopped ask that yet Why? Why were some people so furious about the response George Floyd's murder. Still are clearly. What was it? wasas it? I mean, is every question that we've asked this morning underpinned by cold pure rage that black people are edging ever closer to being treated equally countries where they didn't used to be. Is that what they're really cross about Is that what underpins all of this Be it's not about protecting our women, is it? Because last time Farriage prompted riots in this country, twenty percent of the people arrested subsequently got arrested for domestic abuse those are the people that Sark the loudest when he blows his racist dog whistle So it's not about protecting our women. it's about making sure that the only peopleeople that can abuse them of white, I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. I'm just asking questions So why bring George Floyd and Stephen Lawrence into a conversation about somebody who was not The victim of a police killing or the victim of a racist mob What are they playing at here ero three, four five, six zero six zero nine, seven, three. Roshani is in Southfields, Roshani., What would you like to say? Hello, James. It's difficult. This is really difficult. I've got a young son, you know, who's twenty three now.. And poor Henry Novak, I think it's Nigel Sarag' ability to ruffle up a you know violent violence drop of a hat on any single issue that suits him. And he just wants you know, he just wants to be in the papers and basically with core With Paor, you know, can I'm so emotional Take your time. I know andre you're doing a there but for the grace of God, I think, in your mind at the moment. But why are they talking about Stephen Lawrence, for exam? Well, because that was the most shocking murder of a young man that I think in recent history, he was set upon as prey ab by hideous racist criminals And only two of them, I think two or three of them were actually arrested. what's actually lot to do with this case Well, they're trying to sort of equate it to what happened to Henry Novak. And this man, I don't know why he was mentally ill Why? Because becausecause it suits their agenda It's a bit of a cop out answer. What is there, Rena? I don't want to badge of the witness here R.. they want to make it look as if white people are equally you know are equally the victims of racism as black and covered people and brown people That's what they want to make it out. I'm Brown. You I was born in Sri Lanka and I I' just f up with this. Absolutely, Britain's a fabulous country. It's one of the best countries in the world and they're just turning it into into this, you know, nothing but violence on the front front pages of newspapers. I'm fed up with him and you know, really fed up with him. It's not just him I mean, admittedly people like Chris Philip and Kmy Baderoock are less so Kammy Badenoock. She didn't conduct herself with characteristic idiocy yesterday. She was a little bit better than usual, but up pops Chris Philip. to tick all the idiot boxes that she had for once left unted. Just jumping on the bandwagon James, you know And then we've got Sarah Vine in the Daily Mail, you've got the editor of the Daily Mail, the editor of the Daily Express, the editor of the Sun, you've got the editor. you know who've got it? actually I think No, not quite, but the sun haven't got anywhere near as bad as anybody else. And then you have the eye paper Speaking for everybody honest, Fam's plea for calm ignored. That's the big takeaway from this, but I still don't fully get. Why? They bring George Floyd into it. I can't either. I can't explain that at all, James, but I'm really grateful to you for bringing you know this topic can' You can't be that grateful until I start providing some answers to the questions that I'm asking Rashani, and my quest continues Why are they bringing George Floyd and Stephen Lawrence into Henry Novak's murder? A murder that was committed with no racial Motive. by one person deeath that precipitated, I think, perhaps, but not caused by any stretch of the imagination by police bias. If it turns out there was police incompetence involved, then they must face the full force of the law and no one would dispute that for eight nanosecond But read the judge's sentencing reports about what their motivation might have been. There might be some unconscious bias. One of the cleverest comments I saw online yesterday on Blue Sky was that if there is unconscious bias, it's probably got more to do with age It's probably got more to do with the police turning up at the scene than an eighteen year old boy. is somebody they automatically think must be a wrongan, must be a bad guy. well the oers wrangers So he must be the baddy But of course, you can't really exercise. contemplations or nuances like that when the race Bandwagon, the racist bandwagon is already revved up to a hundred miles an hour. But genuine question. Why? Why bring George Floyd and Stephen Lawrence into this case when they have Absolutely nothing in common I mean, absolutely nothing in common to the point where there are polar opposites in play Alexander is in Northampton Alexander, what would you like to say H. So look, what I'd like to say is that I believe that they're doing this because it justifies whatever they want to do next. Yeah byy placing themselves, by making this narrative, it changes them from aggressive bigigs to freedom fiers. And in a world where say they want to get rid of the ECHR Cam down of religious freedoms, this sets up a really nice precursor, actually I need a little bit more than that I mean, I think you're sounding intelligent, but I'm not quite keeping up. Why would Kammy Bader not get involved in it? Why would she bring Stehen Lawrence into the conversation Oh o Kimmy because well listen I am listening.ay, Kemy Kemmy is out here. I'm going be really real. I'm bllack. I'll say it bluntly. so don't use don't use words that are racally offensive. I'm sure you're not going wor. I'm going to say Kemmy Badenock is literally head of the Tory partarty Because she gets to say all the crazy things that she knows her some of not saying the whole Torory is a racist, but she says what the racists can't and get away with. The white racists can't say unless they join reform Yeah that's trueable. I'm saying she So Kemy will just say anything to continue pedaling that line. Kemy is a bit ridiculous So Kemmy will say anything to antagonize. But there's I mean Joy racist. That might be true, but what is the rationale behind I mean, anybody deploying Stephen Lawrence's murder in the conversation about Henry Novak becausecause then what it does is that it then reframes it says look, we are actually the ones under attack We are we are the ones who need sympathy and we must defend ourselves. It changes them from being just aggressive bigots painting roundabouts to defenders of our own people. Weready think we already think they are, but by pointing the police, painting the police as their enemies And the protectors of ethnic minorities are ninety six percent white police force apparently hideously biased against white people. I mean, do me a favor. And I'm still not quite there. It's not your fault But Stephen Lawrence's murder and the outrage that it engendered offended them so much because how dare you make such a fuss about a black boy being murdered that now they're trying to co oppt or claim that there's hypocrisy in play because people aren't responding in the same way to this. Do you see what I mean about having some bits that I haven't quite some docs I haven't joined yet I do get it, but it do look. I think ultimately this gives them something to shout back at the left. Yes. the left say this so then we're going to say I don't want to be rude, but people who vote that acting like it's generally low information v they vote at all. We're back to the wrestling analogies, justust shout lock her up or down with that or two ter policing Of course it works. I'm just I mean, you're going to laugh at me now but I'm a little bit surprised that Kemy Badenock is joining you. Why? I told well, you didn't laugh, you just did a sort of spluttering inc compprehension, which is almost as embarrassing from my end of the phone. Well, why? Because H I think I can answer that question, rightate? She's Kemy. need to l. Well, I can't lower my expectations anym. I'd really Well why am I surprised that she's doing Could she tell me why she was bringing Stehen Lawce into it? I've read the article. The answer is no Not inrint. Daily Mail don't mind whether it makes any sense anymore than the Times may care about Chris Philipes. t raade against two tier policing that provides precisely zero examples of two tier policing. So you play the role. if I said now Why have you brought Steven Lawrence into it? What would she actually say Ch you probably say up because the wokest left agenda has taken rampage across our country and'm just I'm just saying the truth, the majority of people will Right aren't? if she wouldn't answer the question at allil she'd hit a few slogans and catchphrases. Yeah yeah, a buzzs, buzzword bing go a. Yeah, I think you're probably right. Shall we have a look at the article and see if it has got any Buzzord But toxic tribal politics divides our country, says Kamy Badenoock. Changing this requires brave politics. This is simply the language of the Black Lives Matter movevement in reverse talking about Farage. That's why, you I'm giving her a little bit more credit than Chris Fil. Why are they not kneeling now for Henry Novak? What does that mean Do you do we know the whole point of kneeling in the aftermath of George Floyd's murder was to say that we can no longer as societies treat black people as measurably and obviously inferior too white people. So is she saying that Henry Novak was killed by institutional racism engendered by centuries of discrimination and exploitation Is she And also the Chris Kaepernick thing, it was the whole context, right? Yeah. Look, these kind of things while on mainstream media, right bas I spent some time online. Online, in those weird corners of Twitter, et cetera, or exxel I say, Kemy's statements are going to go down really well you know Pama andew York mentioned the online Universe, but not from that specific angle. and I think that's probably a big part of the answer to all the questions that we ask. If you spend your life on there This is what you think the people want and of course, none of them whether they are feeding these hideous monsters or whether they are the hideous monsters themselves could answer the question of why they're bringing George Floyd or Stephen Lawrence into a conversation about Henry Novak. But Alexander's right, isn't? if you actually pin them down and asked them They would just talk about woken stuff withithout any really substantive or meaningful explanations at all. Does it make you look forward to PMQs later today or does it make you dread it Either way, it's coming up at twelve. Here's David Don with the headlines. James O'Brien on LBC Call zero three four five six zero sixzero nine seven three. It is eleven thirty three and it was probably the Casey review most recently in twenty twenty three. wasn't it commissioned in the wake of Sarah Everrood's murder You know, I nearly said by a white police officer then, but I don't know, is that helpful? I don't think it is, but could you imagine if I was somehow on the hook for Sarah Everard's murder. Have we heard many people this morning being asked to condemn the violence in Southampton last night? Do I have to ask every white caller to condemn the violence in Southampton last night, do you think Because that's how it works, right? I'm not imagining this. If there's an atrocity committed by Muslims or some civil disorder undertaken by people of color, then you have to condemn it first You have to condemn it Do you condemn the actions in Southampton last night? Ask all the callers, all the commentators, all the politicians, all the journists, Do you condemn the actions in Southampton last night? Is a little bit too much pure cold rage for you But Why would I say that the killer was white? O Sarah Everroard except to make the point that it doesn't matter unless you're racist, I suppose. and you think that the ethnicity of a criminal renders the crime better or worse And that's where we are. That's what's so absolutely terrifying. Well terrifying.'s fifty two percent pam wettingly ridiculous and forty eight percent sinister. How do you feel about a murder? Could you just let me know what colour the murderer is, please? and then I'll be able to answer your question. That's where we are, isn't it? I'm not exaggerating Could you just let me know what color the murderer is and the victim and then I'll be able to tell you where it sits on my outrage scale? There's been some child sexual abuse. Could you just let me know the ethnicity of the perpetrators, please and the ethnicity of the victims and then I'll decide how angry and upset, then I'll decide how much I care Two boys have been spared jail after raping teenage girls. Are you going to call for pure cold rage? Could you just let me know what colour they are first, please No, I'm not going to be calling for pure cold rage about this When are you going to call for well had they been immigrants or asylum seekers or just, you know brown British people, then I probably would be calling for pure cultrure. So the crime isn't what really concerns you. Well, of course it isn't My core support is men that are routinely arrested for domestic abuse. twentyenty percent of the men arrested at Nigel Farrage's last riots went on to be arrested for domestic abuse after they got arrested for rioting What was he doing yesterday? Aided and abetted Dot dot dot sessentially calling for more riots, and he got them. He got eleven thirty six of the time. So why the shift now to Stephen Lawrence and George Floyd? And I mean, you can join me in sputter spluttering confusion, but I would absolutely love some proper flesh upon the bones of my question. It may be that Alexander's right, and it is just about you know posturing, sloganeering and appealing to the sort of wrestling fan mentality on social media. You don't need reasons and evidence and explanations, James, you just need to give them something to shout You know lock her up Or let's go WTO. Do not ask me what any of this means. whatever you do. Let's go WTO to ter K T T, what do you mean by that? Well, Don't ask me I ask Chrishil. Okay, what you mean by that, Chris Phil? Well, I haven't got any examples of it, but the Times commissioned me to write an article under that headline anyway, so hey, troubleles all round. Just give him a slogan. Don't ask him to understand what it means And I've got a horrible feeling that Steh Lawrence and George Floyd are being inserted into that space just shout their names really loudly when you're talking about Henry Novak because Because Phil's in Bislan Phil, what would you like to say Hey, good morning, Jameson, thank you for having me on. You're very. Yes. I mean, first of all, what happened Last night, appalling. You don't have to coemn, Phil. I'm not one of those presenters. I know that everybody decent finds it disgusting regardless of what their ethnicity or background is. I just some people pretend that if you're a Muslim, you have to apologize for everything that any Muslim criminal has ever done in his life. But you're right. and thoughts and you know concerns to the people who would have been terrorized by those events on their doorstep, and of course to the human beings and the dog who were attacked Absolutely Yeah, I mean from Kemmy Biden oxside, she's just trying to score political points now She doesn't have much to say anyway, in my view. if you told that woman that night was dark, she'd say it was light. If Labour said if Labour said night was dark, she'd say it was daylight. She'd say it was light. There's a sort of really weird tribalism there. But I still give her the benefit of the doubt there must be some sort of rational reason for bringing Stephen Lawrence into this conversation I think I think she's just trying to take an opposite view to what's Iard you say U, you know, I mean I mean that man when when he spoke yesterday m talalking about cold rage My heart sank. Of ked. And I thought thought, I know what you're doing. I know exactly what you're doing.re you're trying to whip up further to get power. And that's basically what I'm thinking, get power I mean, I served my country for twenty two years and I wept Mormmost wept when he was saying this because it's aborrent. And then I look back at what happened in America after Trump lost the election And then I look back to the early nineteen thirties when Adol Hitler was coming to power, demonizing parts of the parts of society furdy or political aim, and that's all he wants to do He wants to get power. He wants to turn this country into something like Trump's America or Putin's Russia He doesn't care. He doesn't care about people. He doesn't care about anything apart from himself. It's hideous. I can't argue with that. and I don't want to badger you Do we have any idea why they're bringing George Floyd and Stehen Lawrence into these conversations? I mean, I mean, I appreciate your answer if she needs to do something different from him. I think they've both done it. Well she's done Stephen Lawrence and George Floyd. He did George Floyd. Do we know? mean What would be the academic if we were in a university lecture hall perish the thought Pil. and the lecturer said, whyy do you think Kammy Badenock cited the case of Stephen Lawrence when discussing the completely different murder of Henry Novak. What would we say I think because She just hasn't got anything else to say. She, you know, we don't you listen to Henry Novak's father. I mean I' not I don't know how he did it. I really don't know how he did it I mean, one thing that did occur to me yesterday is that he's been dealing with this for a lot longer than the country has because of course the trial has been ongoing. so he's been through different stages of grief and anger, I'm sure, which should make his words all the more resonant and all the more respected, but not. if you knowigel, exactly. And It's just why don't I just can't understand why people like that and you always get them throughout history. Why don't they care? Why don't they care about people? Why don't they care about everybody We're all people. We're all If you cs us, we all bleed the same color Y be honest. Do you have an answer to that question Wh he doesn't care? why some people don't, not just him, but why some people are absolutely uncaring or blind to what is both historically and materially obvious. becausecause the only thing they care about is themselves. They just don't care about anyone else. They really don't. They just want everything for themselves and nothing for anyone else. and it's It's importanting. And and that be. And if the path to that is demonization and other ring and that's the path they'll go now. I think you'll be surprised to hear me say this. I think you've been too kind to him. I I think everything we know about the man from his school days right through to now, he believes this stuff in his bones Yes, absolutely.'s not opportunism. That's why I find Camy Badenock a more interesting case study in the context of the Stephen Lawrence George Floyd sightings, because I mean, she can't believe this stuff in her bones, I don't think. Andt she doesn't seem to think very deeply about many things. Ditoe Chris Philip, but why bring these two men into it? Phil, thank you for that. I think you may have been taken a little bit by surprise by how emotional that conversation made you. Well, I really appreciate it. and I also really appreciate your service. And it is important to mention things like that because some of the people who are currently deciding to side with Nigel Farrage and completely ignore the express wishes of Henry Novak's father might be a little bit more susceptible to a veteran offering up those thoughts and they would be to a goob on a stick like me. and I say that with gratitude. It is eleven forty three. Gabriel is in leads. Gabriel, what's going on Bye James're right? Well, first of all, I do want to say that I'm eighteen and Henry Novak's age or would have been. And I also appreciate your previous call of service. But you ask James about the relevance of George Floyd and Stephen Lawrence, I think they are deeply relevant to what's going on. They are all examples of institutional wrongdoing and at the very least, institutional misguidedness that's been baked in. and in this moment. How has it been baked in? It's been baked in there unconscious by train, the police officers. What does that mean Whatre with that involved? it means getting rid of your unconscious biases that people may be predisposed to treating people differently Yeahes, so what would that involve What would that training? No, no, no, no, no, no. A preferential treatment is the opposite of unconscious bias We' remove those unconscious bias at every three. So what would that training involve Well I don't know, Have you been come to police James? And you're teaching me about it. I'm not trying to teach I tell me what it invol I' listening to your radio station. But does it involve unconscious bias training Well, I presume that it would be about recognizing the things in life that we're more inclined to sideide with, the more biases that we have and getting rid of them Butight. And in the case just let me fin I think in the case of Hampshire Police, what's going on Henry Novak? We're actually swapping these dices for others. This is this is the narrative. this is the narrative that's out there is it's completely at odds It's completely at odds with what the judge said Is it at odd to that bodycamf footage? Yes, it is at odds with that bodycam footage. I will. The police were given a convincing but wholly false narrative of the incident. It was dark and Henry was wearing a dark top The entry damage caused by the knife through it would not have been obvious. whilst there was visible blood on me, it would not have been this is what the judge said, Gabriel This is this is what the actual judge you've read it, have you? Where did he mention unconscious bias He doesn't mention unccious bias because Wh Because he's assessing if Vitcrim was guilty of murder, which he which he was No he's also looking at the consequence of those lies is that the att Well you tell me what he said because you've read it I' read bit of it. tellell me what this bit says. Another consequence of those lies is that the attending police officers honestly believed that there were reasonable grounds for suspecting Henry had committed an offence and arrested him with the consequences This is fantastic. You haven't read it. And you don't care what he said James, I care about what people say. The people that don't be seen to be caring people like you actually in this moment. You haven't read what the judge said and you don't care what he said. What about what Henry's father said about not? Henry's father was made real remind ourselves what he said, okay We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism This is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder Unconscious bias addresses racism, right? I'd say so in this instance, ye. So you think he's wrong? It is about racism Well, it can be I think in this moment it's both Well you think he's wrong because he categorically said it isn't Gabriel, Gabriel, we can keep saying each other's names, but eventually you'll have to answer my question. L Listen to it again because I think you're confused We do not want his death to be used to create further division, hatred or tension. This is not a case about Sikhism. this is not a case about racism. this is a case about murder. So it is about racism according to you. It's about unconscious bias training, but you don't know what it involves, and you categorically don't want to hear what the judge had to say about any of that.ave I got that I think that dissection of what my colleagues Well happily we'll be able to clip it up, stick it on the internet and you'll be able to listen back to it yourself Leading Britain's Conversation LBC with James O'Brien It is ten to twelve. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC PMQs just around the corner. Let me make something a a little I'm sure I don't need to, but just for the avoidance of doubt If you claim that you've read the sentencing comments that a judge has given in a case and you clearly haven't, you insult my listeners If you cite phrases like unconscious bias training when trying to defend the ludicrous conflation of a racist murder with a non racist murder but can't explain what unconscious bias training is or what it involves, then you insult my listeners. If you make claims that you are entirely incapable of backing up with any evidence or insight, then you insult my listeners And sometimes my listeners might enjoy listening to you insult them and me deal with it, but you don't deserve. an uninterrupted or an untrammlled platform, if you come on the radio to lie too lie about having read sentencing reports, to lie about your understanding of unconscious bias trining and to lie about some understanding of Henry Novak's murder that has been completely denied by his own father who was in court for every single day of evidence Just in case there's any confusion at all about that I suppose I could have just said that in a slightly shorter version This isn't Twitter lads Y lies and ignorance don't get. a free pass here Andrew's in Manchester, Andrew, what would you like to say Well, I'd like to say that I think that the reason behind this with the likes of Chris Philip and Cammy Badenoock is just pure cynical desperation, really. They're trying to draw a parallel between racist murders because they know that the people they need in order to keep their party from extinction won't look very carefully at those arguments, really. I not No Yeah, I see it's but it's the other way around Yeah, I'm going'm you shout you shout Stephen Lawce or George Foyd, or you shout unconscious bias or you shout trailing. you shout you imply heavily, it's the white version of George Floyd. It's the white version of Stephen Lawrence. And those people that you saw in South Aampton last night, they're not going to look too carefully at the argument. They're going to say, yeah, that's right. I agree. And the Tories need those people if they're going to survive otherwise come the next election are going to be extinct and you ignore his dad And you totally ignore his dad, who's been through the most and as you say has been in court every single day. So he knows all the manuty of this court case. He knows exactly what happened. know, but that kind of information is too much for them. they don't want to know the real facts. They just want to know there's a parallel here between Steve and Lawrence, but this time, it's black on white, not white on black That's the way they want to see it. And I suppose if that is the thing that you're desperate to subscribe to, then the last thing you're going to do is be able to answer questions properly about why you're doing it. Yeah, you're not going to have the examples and the proof like you were talking about earlier with Crystal because there isn't really any. But those people who you're trying to attract to vote for you as the toories. It care about that anyway. they're not going to ask for the proof, areer? They're just're right. would tweet it? Politically there was a missed opportunity. I could be completely wrong about this. It happened but um I wonder what would have happened if James cleleverly had won the leadership I know he's kind of joined in half heartedly with the narrivative that the Tories are punting. They're trying to do a sort of diet. So what we've got now is that other fellow who fell out with Farage, his name I can never remember He used to be the chairman of South Rupert Low put. So he's trying to offer the full fat version which portrays Farrag as offering the diet version And the full fat vers she is going down quite well from what I can tell kind of near here in Makerfield because they're on like withful no, that's fine. I think you can ment polling, but don't say anything else about an imminent by election because I'm not professional enough to know exactly what all the rules are But if he's suffering if he's saying that Fage isn't full fat, he's diet, I'm full fat I guess that makes the Ties zero, doesn't it? That makes them cooke zero It makes them zero. so they're pushing hard not to be zero. The only way they can not be zero is to push themselves further and further towards that. Whaty if they gone the other way? What if they' gone the other way? Be labour they' gone the other way. in my view, there's a massive void there now in politics. I agree with you You know, the liib Dems aren't filling it, are they? They look a bit ineffectual at the moment. You know their leadership looks hired all of that, you know So I think, you know, I know it's not a very fashionable view, but I think there's a big gulf there in politics of a kind of I do too of the old do type Yeah. know I don't know what would happen if it were if if they were around, but I was fascinated theoretically by the idea of a Tory being first to break ranks on Brexit. If the Tories had offered up an electoral path to rejoining the European Union before Labour did, it would have been a moment of Extraordinary beauty, but I don't think that's going to happen anytime soon. Opportunism, cynical desperation. I mean, whatever else it is It is an attempt to pretend that the reasons behind the murder of Henry Novak are the same as the reasons behind the racist killings Oh George Floyd is and Steh Lwrence, And that is it. And of course, if someone wants to make that point that they won't be able to justify it They just want to believe it. Why do they want to believe it Why do they want to believe it And why do they want to believe that there's a sort of narrative of anti white feeling in this country eleven fifty five is the time. twowo Andrews, one in Manchester, one in Leeds. What does the one in Leeds want to say Hi, good morning. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome U I mean, I think I have the answer to a question of the comparison between this one and the George Floyd and the Stephen Lawrence killing. I think it's more that the far right just want this this narrative of Well, that people get to have these things and we don't. So in terms of the George Cloyde situation, for example you know, that we have solidarity we' taken them near football matches. we had, you know players had of matter on the back of their kitss We had protests and around London and up and down the country Standing inside the there to be what happened to George Flodes, sameame with Stephen Lwrence And I think with this, what happened to Henry, I feel as the far right want to have their moment of well well, the black people can have all this things wears out. So So the facts of the murder don't matter No, no, I don't fit the f I care. This murder took place in December last year. Yes. And it's on now it's called. that's because of the footage. That's not because of the passage of time. But the facts of the case don't matter. and of course the facts of the case are what Mart Novak is drawing on when he says to us that it was not about racism, it was not about Sikhism. It was not about immigration. It was not about any of the things that the far right desperately want it to be about. and if you want it to be about that, then you can draw a parallel with with Stephen Lawrence and the point because how dare black people get this kind of response when one of their own is killed and white people don't, Which of course isn't true. I mean if I mean I suppose we'd have to live in a completely different country for a white person to be the victim of a ninety six percent police force discriminating against and killing them. Why is Kemby Bader not joining it I mean, to be honest, I don't really pay much attention to her. Her voice annoys me, She annoys me. I don't know what I'm ted with, but I find it really interesting I just think she's one of those people that like a previous caller said, I just think she's the face of the people who can't say what they want to say and need someone to say what they want to say, whereereas she can come back and say those You know, those things where you can't cross the line You know, I'm going to defend her ever so slightly and I have a feeling But when she saw the Daily Mail this morning, she would have been stunned. see on the front page that she was calling it a Stehen Lawrence moment. I could be wrong, I'm perhaps being far too generous to her. This needs to be a Stehen Lawrence moment. It lookooks to me like something that was either suuggested to her by sub editors U or written as a relatively small part of the overall story. The big question she's asking is why are they not kneeling now for poor Henry Novak, to which the answer is that Henry Novak was not a victim of baked in centuries old systemic and institutional racism and exploitation. and that's just that's not an opinion, that's counting but she already knows that and doesn't need me to explain it to her. A visual like the Sarah Everard visual would have been quite nice, perhaps. I'm not suggesting that tell other people how they should respond to something horrible. but if you wanted to respond peaceably and peacefully Vidils are always nice and can be very, very powerful. Sarah Everrad, of course was white, but then so it was her killer. So there's no political opportunity there for Nigel Farrge Pam Cs is on the wave. We didn't have one last week, did we Hello Hello. You know we didn't. I was talking to you then did I not look at you? No just I thought you might say Natasha is here. And Natasha is here you know I was queuing you up for an organic introduction. Hell What's going There wasn't one last week because we had recess. So obviously there was the story of the day which you've been discussing all day on your show, which I imagine that Kenny Baynockonite wants to talk about today, but obviously the other big story of the week, the Mandleson files, which were released on Monday, and Kenny Baynock's done quite a lot ush the priminester on this And actually we haven't really talked about this much, but in the last twenty four hours, Downing Street has admitted that the Prime Minister himself puts disappearing messages on his WhatsApps. And I do think there is a wider question there that she might want to press on why that is and whether that is a good way of doing government. Is it right that we are able to have our prrime Ministerate messages that if they are about government policy and decis making at the heart of white They shouldn't be on WhatsApp anyway, should If they're about government policy and decision making, it was a bit of a wet blanket that ance of papers, wasn't it? mean it was't of gosip and embarrassing. Exactly but no smoking gun. No smoking gun at all. totally agree with you there. lots of embarrassing text messages that show really that Peter Mandelon was just at the heart of the Labour Gverment and clearly a lot of deep Unhappiness within lots of different parts of the Labour Party. But yes, you're right, it didn't really take us on very much further in terms of the big question, which was the Mandelon files were all about was about this vetting process of Peter Mandelson and why it had happened in this way. We didn't really get any further It hasn't moved on. No, we didn't really get anything on that. and why. And like I say, there was no messages really, only a few inister Peterandelons we didn't really learn very much in terms of that relationship, just more about, I guess the way that Whitehall, the way that Westminster works, and Peter Mandelsen's position at the heart of it really. Are we likely to get any questions that are linked to the sort of overall welfare of the country and the plurality of the population, thingsings like the economy or health or military matters? Yeah I'd love there to be. I'd love there to be I feel like this is the week to do that, at least at least for Kemmy Badeno' syes But yes, I think to be fair, the government have, in the last couple of weeks, had some good news on the economy, which we discussed sort of quite a lot last week about and on immigration And on immigration If you're opposed to immigration. Yes, But Kemmy Bayidennock, I feel like she's probably not going to mention that. And let's say that. So probably not on that case. I bet K Stama does. I bet you' probablyably in quick succession. Yeah, exactly. Immigration. down inflation economy. He's got to give them something to cheer about, hasn't he? And obviously we're in this Objectively. is actually quite a lot to do about. Yeah, for sure. But gl that you'd know it. But it's such an odd position that we're in this bit of a limbo where the government are kind of trying to get on with the job of governing, but still waiting to hear what's happening with Andy Burnham and his potential return to Parliament. They're paying five GS with what might happen with the future of the country. And at the same time the governments saying, we're getting on with it. We're doing lots of work, it's all going on in the background. but nobody really wants to listen to that. Top B Absolute deadir this will definitely come up Novac. I think she I mean, surely surely How does she make political capital out of it? Well, she's already been trying to be fair. isn't she? And to be fair, I think you was quite good on this stuff. Yeah, he was. and to be fair, you know It's subject to an investigation about what's going on with those police officers right now, but what we have heard from many politicians in the last twenty four hours is them trying to make a political point of it. Despite as what you've been saying earlier on the show, the father of Henry deliberately trying to make sure that it's not a pol' all right. must I mean, talk about compounding horror You say Presumably somewhat idealistically thinking Well I'm Henry's dad. They'll listen to what I have to say. Yeah, but clearly not. and I say it just, yeah, I think I think Politicians of all colors have tried tried to make this about politics, and they've not respected that wish. Many political parties haven't done so. And yeah, I think Kistam has been quite strong on this and I don't quite see the whole of the mainstream media and everybody's not been talking about this. The sentencing was only a couple of days ago. We've only just found out the extent of what's happened, the judg's sentencing remarks as you've been discussing others we have only just found out what's been going on with this case and we still don't know what's happening with those police officers because the IPC is still looking at it. So it's still very much a live case and the Prime Minister is probably just going to point to the fact that we don't know what happened yet. We've obviously seen that body cam footage, but we don't know the extent of what really happened that night. We do know exactly what happened in court and what evidence was offered, but whatever you do, if you want to sustain the idea that this has anything to do with unconscious bias or racism, then do not. I repeat, do not rade The judge's sentencing comments This is the moment where I remind you that we could cross live at any moment to the House of Commons where Kir Starmmer is about to currently making a statement, of course, and providing some further detail on that helicopter crash and indeed paying his respect to Henry Novak. I hope I imagine because he's a man than I am resisting the temptation to say that one of the only and best ways in which you could properly pay your respects to Henry Novak would be by respecting the wishes of his family at this time. but I guess that ship has sailed for an awful lot of people. Four minutes after twel is the time. I don't know, to be honest with you, you kind of have to bring something up, but you've got two things that haunt Kemy Baden on whatever it is that she does, although to her credit She doesn't seem to notice them most of the time. You've got the fourteen years in power. I Chris Pil writing comments about the police today, which are utterly uneter policing melyes. And Baden Oock similarly will be describing problems that if they are systemic, were in place long before Kis Aamma became Pime Minister. And on the WhatsApp stuff You've got the other big spectre at feast, which is the ghost of Boris Johnson. Exactly there's a reason why we all government went onto WhatsApp, right? It all happened during Partygate. And we all vowed never to let Partygate lessons be repeated after that happened. And many many people said at the time, you know, is it really right that politicians are making all these decisions on WhatsApp? And know when everyone went into lockdown That was what was done. Everybody put government business on phones instead. And yes, there's now questions about whether that's the right way to conduct it and whether government phones should be used in that way to make policy and to make these really crucial decisions. And then these messages just disappear into Eher and we never see them again. What were that? mean is a genuine question of curiosity, were the conversations? because I only had a bit of a kind of scratch at the surface. Were they about serious matters of government? Yeah, absolutely. They were. Yeah, they were. lot of a lot of in whichama would have been involved Yeah, so it's you know conversations Pat McFadden serious questions of the government. The stuff with Mandlesom was mostly o, I don't like him and he's rubbish, and I'm great, and he's rubbish. and by the way, would you vote for me to be Chancellor? There was a lot of that was definitely the most dominating part of that. But yeah, there were serious questions about policy. Yes, they're talking about sort of the optics of you know with a welfare debate, it doesn't look good. but there are discussions about How How do we talk about reform? What's our messaging going to be after the local elections? How do we actually show people the narrative of this government? It quite important, I think, central to what this Labour government are trying to do, and just sort of go to the heart of this. But yes, were they making, are we going to sign off this policy? yes or no on WhatsApp? I don't think that was happening at least. No, that's what I was confused about. That would be, I mean, serious, mean constitutional., we don't know because quite a of it's blanked out. couldnt say it anyway. And the stuff that's blanked out would be national security issues. And I also think the policy decisions themselves, let's do this, let's talk to this, let's hire this person. They are all taken out. That's. And I think there is probably a bit of that in there. from reading between the lines You don't know if she'll She's coming She's probably one of the hardest politicians to predict, isn't she? She won't do what's logical necessarily or even advantageous in She forced the government to do this Pcisely Right. So I think' her to take that win. I do a lap of honour forcing them to release it and not mention the fact that there's nothing much in it. Yeah But equally, yeah, this is probably her chance to do so and chance to say Let's do this, let's go, let's talk about the revelations in these. You know, Peammy Bidnock in the past has repeatedly liked to list things like the Pat McFadden was talking about, you know, messages to cabinet mininisters.ous minister one anonymous mininister said this in the time Pat McFadden saying all the meetings I go to are about taking money off taxpayers to give it. She might go in of this. I bet if fifty p she goes in on that and now we will find out rpeak, can I echo the Prime Minister's words on Lance Corporal James Freeman and also about the Royal Navy helicopter crash in Devon I also want to share my deepest condolences to the family and friends of Henry Novak. The circumstances around Henry's wrongful arrest and tragic murder must be a wake up call to the entire country and our institutions that every life matters and it is the responsibility of everyone in this House to bring people together not divide them.rak, with your permission, I would also like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Sir Allan Hazelhurst, Lord Hazlehurst, who died on Monday Sir Allalan served Parliament for over fifty years eight of them in the Lords Fty years as my predecessor as MP for Saffon Worden And from nineteen seventy to nineteen seventy four, he was also the member of Parliament for Middleton and Prestwich He was respected on all sides of this House, elected multiple times as your predecessor, Dutypeaker. before he concluded in the other place Apart from serving his constituents, his greatest passion in Parliament and perhaps in life was as you said, cricket. He was chairman of the All party Parliamentary Group for Cricket, a role which he encouraged me to take up, and which I graciously declined, telling him I knew absolutely nothing about cricket But I think colleagues should know that the reason skkyports can be found on the Parliamentary TV network is because of Sir Allen's intense There is so much to say, but I think just letting everyone know But he was a good and kind man and he will be very much missed. My thoughts are with his wife Angela and his children, Mark, David and Emma and his grandchildren. So, Mr Speaker Can I ask the Prime Minister? By how much has the welfare bill risen since he came to office Mrak, can I just first thank her for her approach and her tone in relation to the Henry Novak tragic case. In relation to welfare,, as she knows, we inherited a broken system from the party opposite, and we are now We are now improving that system. We are now improving that system, delivering a youth guarantee, rolling out three hundred work experience placements and commissioned Alan Milburn's review into youth unemployment. They're the steps that we were taken. As she will know, the number on welfare went up hugely on their watch as did the cost under the Shadow Chancellor B r, the Prime Minister doesn't seem to know the answer, so let me tell him. Benefits alone have risen by twenty billion pounds since he came to office The Prime Minister has promised welfare reforms. We heard him say it just now. So can he tell the House why was there No bill in the King's speech to reform welfare ak, welfare reform is balancing universal credit so it no longer pushes people away from work. That is what we are doing. They voted against it. Welfare reform is introducing a right to try to incentivise people to take up opportunities. That is what we are doing They voted against it. Welfare reform is providing record funding on apprenticeships. That is what we are doing Apprenticeship starts fell by forty percent on their watch. And she talks about the welfare bill. It soared to eighty eight billion pounds by eighty eight billion pounds on their watch Nearly three million people were written off face to face assessments collapsed because of the contracts they agreed. And the person who signed off those contracts was the Sadow Chancellor. not Mr. Speaker We need to bring down the benefits bill If he complains about the shadow Chancellor, the bill went up because of the pandemic. And even then even They were asking us to spend more. It's not the shadow Chancellor who's the problem, It's the actual Chancellor. She's not even here in her place. It is the actual Chancellor., the reason why there is no welfare bill is because the Prime Minister has given up. and he's given up because they have given up on him. On Sunday, the welfare secretary was asked twelve times on national radio if he would make cuts to the benefits bill. and twelve times he could not answer. So I will ask the Prime Minister, Is he going to cut the benefits bill? Mr, all the measures we arere doing to reform welfare, all the measures we are taking to get young people into work are measures to reduce the cost and the numbers of people who are unemployed.r that is why we have introduced the youth Guarantee so that young people can have help into work that they can then after eighteen months, if they have not got a job, be given a job for six months supported, which we know is the best way to ensure that they succeed as we go forward That is the change that we are making. but they introduce the system that is broken, We are reforming it. Did they vote to reform it with us? No, they voted to keep the broken system, the Prime Minister keeps saying he is bringing in welfare reforms. None of those things are going to cut the bill. Even his own TimS review explicitly says this is their review, this is the terms of reference, explicitly says this is not about generating proposals for further savings. He had a chance to cut benefits. Last year, I remember they were planning to cut benefits and on the floor of this House, they U turned. What did he do when he had a chance? he cavved He c to all these MPs behind him who don't want benefits brought down. That's why they're sitting silently behind him. So does the Prime Minister agree with his welfare secretary that that was the moment he lost his authority Mr. Speaker, I'm proud of what we're delivering on this side of the House est growing economy in the G seven. They said that couldn' not be done Despite the war in the Middle East, the OECD forecast UK growth is up And inflation is down. Net migration,, Net migration which reached nearly a million under them, the leaderary opposition was the cheerleader down by a staggering eighty two percent. The asylum backlog down by forty six percent We're delivering the fastest reduction in waiting times in the NHS in the history of the NHS. That's on top of free school meals, free breakfast clubs and free childcare. And of course, we're lifting half a million children out of poverty. I'm very proud of the work of this Labour Government. , he says he iss proud of what they are delivering. I'm glad to see the Prime Minister still has a sense of humour, given we all know he's losing his job soon. He has no authority, and we know why. His MPs will not let him do anything. The welfare secretary said in private what they won't dare say in public He said Every meeting I have with Labour MPs is about who can we tax in order to pay more benefits Last week Tony Blair said If the Conservative Party repeats its offer of working together on welfare, Labour should accept. So today I am repeating that offer to the Prime Minister Is he ready yet Pakident, they introduced a system that is broken and they put the bill through the roof. and now they want to give us advice on welfare. No thanks. No thanks. The question should always be not what benefits people are entitled to, but what help we can give people to change their lives. That is what the work and Pension Secretary was arguing, and he is right about that And it's a labour government that's helping people into work. And she asked what we' done. She asked what we' done. More rights for renters, stopping unfair rents. That is eleven million people giving greater security and a place to call home. More rights for workers, including bereavement leave on day one. Ask anyone who has lost someone and they'll tell you just how important it is to have bereavement leave and lifting half a million children out of poverty. We often say in this House that every child should go as far as their talent or ability will take them. It does not happen if they' growing up in poverty. And the party opposite have fought us every turn. I'm proud of what we're delivering. There's much more to do. r P, the truth is unemployment has risen every single month since they came into office. You can listen to their cheers get weaker and thinner with every passing moment. The fact is, despite his huge majority, the Prime Minister doesn't have the votes to reform welfare There is a solution, a conservative solution. Benefits bill down They're all jeering now. I don't know why they're supporting him. He is more than happy to release all their text messages while all of his has disappeared.pp Disappearing messages from a disappearing PM. There is a conservative solution, benefits build down, taxes down, growth up. Everyone in this House Everyone in this House knows that he is just a caretaker keeping the seat warm for the mayor of Manchester. But it doesn't matter who is in charge, Labour MPs will keep asking who can they tax to pay benefits? It is in their DNA. Isn't it the truthak that the problem isn't this passive prime Minister, the problem is the Labour Party Forive me if I not take too much notice of to lead of the opposition. For fourteen years they broke our welfare system, lost control of our borders presided over the biggest fall in living standards on record broke the economy. Prisons, the NHS, I could go on and on. No wonder she and they are totally irrelevant change delivered by this Labour Gverment, the biggest upgrad in workers' rights in a generation. delivered. Rnter's rightights act delivered. Reord funding around NHS, deliver. the fastest growing economy in the G seven, deeliver. Lifting half a million children out of poverty, deliver. We' going to fight even harder for working people, a stronger and a fairer Britain rak, ninetiney seven homes in Col Snorten have been evacuated due to ground movement. That' hundreds. people enduring severe emotional and financial distress. This is absolutely life changing The MRA are now conducting an eight week investigation into who will ultimately be held responsible. In the meantime, my constituents are looking to the UK Government for help Will the Prime Minister commit to working with the Scottish Government and Clack Manager Council to ensure that affected residents receive whatever support they need for a speedy and fair resolution? Can I thank my honrable Friend, I do know how difficult it is for residents who are not in their homes and can I reassure him and them that the MRA are carrying out daily investigations to get answers as swiftly as possible. We're also working with the Council to provide support for residents I can confirm the Energy Mister is in touch with MSPs. I will ensure that both my honouble friendriend and his constituents are kept updated on the next steps leader the Lberal Democrats. Thank your Speak, and can I associate myself with your remarks? about Lord Allan Hazelhurst and confirmed to the Lgal opposition that he will be missed on all sides Can I associate myself with the Prime Minister's remarks about Lance cororporal James Freeman who was killed in Iraq. Our thoughts are with the family and the Unit. And can I also offer thoughts and prayers to the family and friends of the seventeen people who tragically drowned during the recent heat wave, many of them children peak, the murder of Henry Novak was an evil crime. made much worse by the lies of the killer the police respse. The investigation must uncover all things that went wrong and all police forces must act on its conclusions. Outside court, Henry's father made a powerful plea that his son's murder should not be used to create further division, but should be used to treat knife crimes a national emergency. Does the Prime Minister agree that the victims of knife crime and their families deserve a politics where we come together to solve these problems and not use them as a political football? Can I first join him in paying tribute to the seventeen people who lost their lives in the heat wave, many of them as he says young and each of them tragic and send our condolences to their families. In relation to the case of Henry Novak, can I thank him for the approach that he has taken in this as well? It is important in a case like this, which is so tragic and anybody who has seen the footage will have been deeply moved by it. It is important that we reflect on our own leadership roles here as political leaders. And it is our duty to bring people together at a time like this, not seek to divide people. It is particularly our duty to listen to what the devastated family are asking of us as political leaders. And can I thank all of those that have acted in that way because I think that is the right way to respond. Ed Davy, can I thank the Prime Minister for replying and completely agree with him and say that we stand ready to work with the Government on serious policies to tackle knife crime?, with our armed forces overstretched Labour now seems to be investing in a new weapon of war, the long form essay. It gives another meaning to the phrase drone warfare Tony Blair says the UK should suck up to Donald Trump, cowtow to US tech barons and go slow on Europe. The Prime Minister must be grateful for this rare endorsement of his agenda. Blare also claims that the sensible people aren't radical and the radical people aren't sensible. Is the Prime Minister concerned that unless he changes course, he will be remembered for being neither radical nor sensible? Well he rather spoilt what was part of a gag I am surprised he hasn' not done more to welcome the savings we're delivering for familyily Fund days out this summer. I really thought that he would been delighted the cheaper tickets for soft play. this country is united in its horror at the tragic death of Henry Novak.e Mis It is twenty four minutes after twelve. We've skipped the break actually, because quite understandably and correctly, a lengthy tribute at the beginning and a slightly longer version of PMQs, perhaps than we're used to.Quite a lot of people get in touch with castro so congratulate me on my presresscience. Well done. Thank you. Your biscuits on the way. that was Bruce, who said give yourself a biscuit. Liam, H, well done, James, you called it. It's a bit fifty fifty, but I think we both realized as Kos Starma had delivered a heartfelt commemoration of Henry Nov that for canemy Badench to then try to score points off his death. I think would have been And I'm not saying she hasn't done deeply inappropriate things in the past. Some similar, but she didn't do it work today. fair play to her. I think she realized the reaction to Nigel Farange and his attempts to do so and attempts to make this into a political issue. I don't think she's gone anywhere near far as he has done in that. And actually, you know for a first, we never hear Kir Stahmer saying, actually I thank the leader of the opposition for her tone and approach to this, which he did, which didn we didn't play you earlier. We've often said that, haven't we that the days of a sort of a civilised consensus at the top of two parties have felt quite far away recently, but they were in place today for a while and then things got a bit schoollyard again. And one of the things things got schooloolyard about was welfare. Yeah, and I'm glad that she didn't go in on NoVak. I think that was the right decision. She's got an opportunity where she can say pay tribute and say that we do need to have a conversation about this and about this case and of course it's important to have that discussion. But as Kir Stam is saying, we need to come together and there's no justification for violence he's talking about Henry Novak's family having extraordinary dignity after their son's life, there are serious questions to answer like how accusations of racism impacted policing, but there's no justification for violence. and a bit of a knockout as well at Farage's comments saying this isn't the time for rage as well. So a nice sort of start to it. M Fage there I can't see him in in the stout. Is that that him standing up there? Yeah, he's speaking up now, so we might be able to bring you a little bit of what he's saying O of the last seventy seven votes in the House of Commons, how many do you think he missed? O, out of the last seventy seven votes. Yeah is that this year? is that? Just a the last seventy seven? The last seventy seven votes up until june the first So' I'm guessing he's been around for a lot of them. How many guess venty Okaykay, seventy seven se. correct Oh, seventy seven. Yes. Iave. I was about to do some work now. It was about to like the two Ronnie's version of Mastermind. There's about to be some very quick fun maths with your.rect, anwer. he is on his feet, wanging on no doubt about two ter policing, while providing zero examples, On we go. And then Davy conducting himself quite well at. I mean, he usually does, doesn't he? But covering two bases, a little bit of a one two over Trump and Blair and the rest. I'm surprised Baddenor didn't in on Blair I forgot we weren't here last. It bit last, bit last week, maybe dec maybe it was missedessay week and decided to skip it. Yes Yes. that was quite a fun joke from Kir Stama about. I thought he'd welcome my family fun day out and cuts to soft play cuts to the price of that, which went down quite well. But yeah, Davey talking about knife crime, talking about politicians coming together not use a political football again, just talking about the Henry Novak case And yeah, talking about you know the criticism of the Prime Minister from Tony Blair that he's not sensible he won't look back and they won't think his him as sensible or radical. I think that's not true. I think people will look back at Kir Armer and say he was a sensible chap. He might not be seen as a radical chap. I don't know if we should be writing his epitaph just, you know No, it's maybe a little early for that. But you can't really criticise people for doing so Yes. And, you know, Kemmy Kimy's one one good joke today was, you know, that Andy Berhams he, you know, He's keeping the seat warm for Andy Berham, which again, is this feeling in Westminster right now of an odd sort of stasis where people are waiting to see what happens with Andy Burnnam. The business of government is sort of going on, lots of talk in the tea rooms and among MPs about what happens next and nobody really seems to know. But as you say, obviously, the main topic of conversation on welfare Tick for you for that on those And then the list, he did the list of ups and downs and delivered delivered. He had a new one today which was delivered delivered delivered, which delivered delivered.es doesn'tite have the same sort of Starmer the postman. Doesn't quite have the same sort of way of engaging the back benches when they all shout deellivered, but maybe maybe they'll get better at that. But yes, talking about welfare, talking about the fact that I might go back we might listen to this actually because he's trying to make political capital out of it, isn't he? And Starmer is responding. So do we do that before or after the news N not condemning the violence in Southampton, I think is going to be part of it, which again, this is not not Just me being observant, not being particularly flipping prescient, but I did wonder when people were going to start asking for condemnations of the violence in Southampton from the people who helped to cause it. We'll head to the news on time for once, shall we and then just catch up with this? becausecause actually Daniel Trilling is joining me after the news talk about his new book, which by just happy well, unhappy coincidence It chronicles how the very, very far right has taken a stranglehold on public discourse and indeed much of this country, which seems strangely Azite today. so we'll head to the news on time today and then catch up quickly with this exchange in the House of Commons where even the Tories were eckling Farid for not condemning the violence in Southampton. he kind of can't, in his u warped brain. he will have to acknowledge that he essentially called for it And then we'll meet Daniel and discuss his new book Here's Matt Hewittt with your headlines This is LBC With Vaux old Proud partner of Team GB. twelve thirty three is the time. seventy seven votes missed, but he turned up today Following the horrendous circumstances of Henry Novak's death Can I urge the Prime Minister to consider this It is now clear to growing millions in this country, that we' living under two tier policeing. The instructions that are given to police officers from police bosses are clear and written down in ink. It says you must treat different ethnic groups in different ways A thatp apart from the upset and the anger at the circumstances of his death, the anger that you saw spilling out in South Aampton last night is in der violence which is in danger of getting considerably worse If the public lose trust in being treated fairly by the police, can he take some action, E this divisive practice of two tier policing and make sure that all British citizens are treated the same Mr Speaker, I don't believe there's two tier of policing in this country I'm really shocked that he pretends to have respect for Henry's family and then acts in this way. They are a grieving family. Mis Brush, please, it's a very important question. I want to hear the Prime Minister you want to carry on Go outside, please, Prime Minister The gving family have asked us not to respond in the way that the leadeer of Reform has responded. They've asked us not to. They have lost their son in the most appalling circumstance. They make a simple plea of us as human beings to please not exploit that. That is their plea to us We all need to reflect on those words of Henry's father. My response and the response of others to be fair, has been focused on the lessons to be learned so we can deliver justice. His response has been to appeal For rage. Rge. That's his response to a father who's lost his son and asked for that not to happen. Exploiting this tragedy to create grievance and division would be wrong in any circumstances, but to do it when the family are expressly saying, Please don't is unforgivable It shows exactly who he is. Telve thirty six is the time. Daniel Trilling is the author of a new book. If we tolerate this, how the British establishment made the far right respectable, and he joins me now We should begin, I suppose, by reflecting upon what we just heard because it's very much a symptom of making the far right respectable that Fart is able to stand up in Parliament, having missed seventy seven votes and appear to both celebrate and then threaten more violence like the viners that we saw in Southampton last night. He sounded a bit shaky there. Is he on slightly new territory? being outflanked to the far, far, far? What's further right than the far right being outflanked to the further right and quite possibly losing the half hearted support of people who are holding their nose well being drawn towards him Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you it's appalling opportunism on Farage's part, obviously, but you've got to see it as coming from a position of relative weakness. you know, this hasn't been a great year for Farage so far, you know, he's had this loads of revelations from allegations from former classmates about his school dayss racism, which he denies, of course You know, he spent the best part of a decade trying to climb as high up Trump's golden tower as he possibly can. and that's backfired on him with Trump starting a war in Iran and putting people's petrol prices up was in favor of that to start with. No exactly. they're not favor of it a couple days later. I haven't check recently on whether he is in favor of it yet, It's a mark of his integrity, of course. He's had to do like that. He's had to do what Journalists called a reverse ferret there. Reform didn't do quite as well as they were. saying they were going to do in the elections and now he's under pressure from A more extreme party to his right, restore who eating into his vote. And Farage has always been really good at sort of treading that line between respectability and radicalism. You know, afterfter the Southport riots, he intervened them, but it was all with a nudge and a weeink, you know, what are the police not telling us? Whereas circumstances now have forced him to come out and say something, I think that's actually quite a lot more extreme It couldn't be criminal, could it? It would mean an acturual incitement to violence. It's still walking that tighter.ust I'm asking quite a few of my questions Quite a few of my textters have asked that question this morning So I mean, it's a terrible thing to say, Daniel, and deeply cynical, but you couldn't really be publishing a book like this at a better time. I'm sure it was a very timely moment when it was commissioned and an even more timely moment when you finished it, but when it hits the bookshelves, A book with a subtitle How the British Establishment madeade the Far Right respectable couldn't be more timely. Give us the short version. O well I've been covering right wing nationalism for over fifteen years now, I started off writing about the BNP, the British National Party in the late two thousands. know when that kind of politics was really seen as extreme and marginal. And I remember some revers at the time sort of said, what's the point of writing a book about that? know it's never going to have any effect fifteen or so years later, you see many of similar themes, ideas right in the mainstream of politics. So this is a short book aim to help readers who just want to understand what's happened and why understand those things and also start to think about what we can do to challenge it I was struck, you mentioned the BMP. I was remembering Chris Donald actually earlier today, the teenager in Scotland who was murdered by a gang of five men who were of Pakistani origin and the way in which the BMP tried to turn that into what we would now call some sort of culture war or race war. I spoke yesterday to a woman called Liz Webster, whose son was brutally assaulted in school by Asian pupils And she was at great pains to explain why that was a consequence of there not being enough diversity, equality and inclusion training. And she was very emotional because she kind of recognized her son also called Henry that if that happened now It would be seized on by people like Farage to ferment whatever it is he is fermenting. and you describe what you saw in Southampton tonight.s That's what he's fermenting And I followed some of these events quite closely. I remember going accompanying my father on national front marches. Let me qualify that, where he was covering them for the Daily teelegraph and being very confused about what I was watching Is it the worst it's ever been at the moment I think it's It's the most dangerous it's ever been because these ideas are no longer the preserve of people who are so obviously extreme and openly violent like the National Front, for example, or the BNP. know The people who founded the BNP were neo Nazis. know there were people who thought Hitler's Germany sounded like a great thing, and wouldn't it be a good idea to try and resurrect a version of that in post Wld Britain? The worrying thing about today is that although the people espousing similar views have got less of a connection to that profoundly extreme kind of politics. So Nigel Farage, for example, has always made a big thing about how he doesn't allow fascists or former fascists in his political movement. That's what he claims. That's what he claims. The trade off is that sanitizes a whole load of stuff that if it's followed through to its ultimate conclusion is violent and divisive and potentially very, very destructive say I think for that reason, you know the fact that this stuff is going mainstream and there's a chance of far more people supporting it, that might have happened in the days of the National Front is really very dangerous And I mean, as you say, you don't just provide a diagnosis, you prescribe a prescription as well. That's of particular interest at the moment, notot least to people who are feeling deeply, deeply dismayed by events of the last couple of days. Yeah, well, I mean, I've had to fight against my naturally sunny disposition. And my journalist's tendency to just describe the bad stuff in detail But I think for me What the last few years have really reinforced, and I started to think this after the riots that followed the Southport murders in twenty twenty four is We can be too dismissive of sort of symbolism and just challenging things, you know, actually coming out and saying, this is wrong, you know, racism is wrong, encouraging violence in response to some shocking murders is wrong. And it was the absence of politicians and people in prominent positions saying that in twenty twenty four that made me think, actually, we really need to do that. It's also on all of us to do it So that's part of the prescription. I suppose the other bit that is trickier, but we have to talk about this is fixing the failures in mainstream politics that brought us to this point You know, the failure to create a Britain feel secure, safe, like they've got a chance of improving their prospects in the future, and that there are resources around to support us in you know, leading flourishing lives, getting on with one another, negotiating cultural difference and all of these things are really, really important. but where the political establishment, I think, has been absent or has actively let us down What'd you put that down to? Complacency, sort of detachment? I think there's a degree of complacency. I mean, in a way, it might sound counterintuitive to say at this moment, but in terms of ideas about race and immigration and identity Britain has actually got very strong tradition of you know, acceptance of u I just didn't realize quite how many people's blood boiled at that when I was Yeah. Well, I mean you know, there's a minjority of people who find that infuriating and are opposedive. but I think the real problem is if the majority kind of get complacent about it and think, well just because we made progress in the past thingsings can't go backwards. they can and there are people actively working. to turn things backwards. So it's a bit of that and I think it's also You know, we're subject to all the same pressureures the rest of the world is Since the two thousand eight financial crisis, it's been much harder for governments to manage the economy and institute social policies successfully the old ways of doing things politically They've run their course, but the political centre seems unable to come up with something new Well, I have you, just a quick word on this recurring theme of sex, birth, and death Elon Musk has been weighing in again on this and he is essentially telling people to fight first and rather than this mythical siege or being under attack But when you write about that, you point out this theme, this recurring theme of sex birth and death. Yeah. so when I talk about the far right or when I write about them rather, I'm talking about a whole range of groups ranging from fascists and extremists to right wing populists and so on. And the reason why I group them all together is because Primarily what they're trying to do is rile people up. They're making these very strong emotional appeals You know it's always around nationalism, the idea of a threat to the nation in one way or another, but those threats always link back to stories about sex birth and death. So a murder with a kind of racially charged context it Manufactured or inflated mananufactured or not get it if you if you can stick a racally charged context on it then you you're winning. a murder for example, immmigration, birth rates, demographics, you know that's all about the ability of the nation to renew itself and its identity and future and so on. And then sex comes into it both in terms of sort of gender roles. But again, the far right particularly likes to exploit crimes where several of these elements come together And that runs across that whole wing of politics from the very extremes to the more mainstream bits Do you understand why Badenoock and others have cited the murders of Stephen Lawrence and George Floyd when discussing Henry Novver You can say no because I don't. I mean, explaining what goes on in Kemy Bedoot's head is above my pay grad. That's what everybody said today, but it's a bit of a cop out. But think I think so basically this is an argument I'm make in my book as well is the rise of the far right is often seen as a failure of the left and it is But it is also a failure of the center right. You know, traditionally in Britain, the center right was actually very strong at kind of drawing a line and saying this far but no further.. And ostracizing people who not power was very swiftly removed. Well that's parted by Ted Heath. Yeah. so that's the kind of change long time ago. And it is a long time ago. and you know, things have changed a lot since then, but the biggest change has been that particular under Boris Johson, C conservatives brought far right populism on board. they started adopting the rhetoric and the policies of that wing of politics and under Badenock as reform have eaten her lunch She's seemingly been unable to see that the way out of that is not to chase after them to reestablish that line between The center right and the stuff further to the right of it and she's starting to do it a bit. I mean, I think her her response to the outcome of the Novat murder trial this week I was surprised that she took the line that she did, let's say. A Cordon Sanur Yes, that's what it was traditionally called. And you know, that came out of The Second World War and the understanding after that that right wing nationalist politics would lead us to disaster again, and we needed to keep that out of the mainstream. And that Kordon is at best veryfraid now indeed. Daniel Chilling's new book, if we tolerate this and regular listeners of this programme will be amused to know it has an image on the cover of a boiling frog How the British establishment made the far right respectable is out now and it comes highly recommended Daniel, good to see you, good luck with the book. Thank you. Stay safe it's twve forty seven. This is LBC with Voxall. Energizing a Better Britain It's ten to one. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Simon Marks is here or rather there, but here at the same time. and J just a quick word on why this matters. CBS is the official US partner of the BBC. and that is why it is particular interest that they are going through Um A little local difficulty, Simon. Yes, I mean, that is now becoming a national story here in the United States and a story with tentacles that are going to reach into the heart of new broadcasting House, I think. This is over the firing of Scott Pelly, the former anchor manan of the CBS Eing News, a thirty seven year veteran of the network where Edward R. Murrow, Walter Kronkkeite and Dan Rather once read people the news and told people what was going on around the world. But CBS of course, has now fallen under the ownership of the Ellisons. Larry and David Ellison, father and son team who have themselves pledged fealty to President Donald Trump and are turning CBS into an ever increasingly craven media outlet as far as the White House is concerned. And so Scott Pelly was fired last night from his position at the News magazine sixty mininutes After standing up and objecting to the appointment of the program's new executive producer a few days ago, a man by the name of Nick Bilton with a pretty thin curriculum Viti in terms of broadcast experience and certainly thin experience relevance to helelming the most watched news magazine program in America for decades Pominent correspondents have been fired from CBS, most notably a woman called Sharon Alfoncy, who of course saw a report that she had produced about the Trump administration's decision to fly undocumented illegal aliens out of the country to a terrorist detention center in El Salvador. She did a big investigative piece about that that was delayed from being transmitted for weeks after Barry Weiss, the woman who is now editor in chief of CBS News weighed in and said that the peace needed to have a voice from the Trump administration. It was pointed out to her that the Trump administration had been approached for comment and had refused to put anybody up for interview, and the peace was still delayed from being transmitted for weeks. Scott Pelly confronted all of this in a staff meeting last week at CBS sixty Minutes confronted the new executive producer of the program, said that under Barry Weiss's leadership of CBS, Sixty Minutes is being in his words, murdered He was peremptorily fired last night essentially for insubordination towards the new leader of the program, but he has responded with a devastating statement that says, lastast month, sixty Minutes lost its DNA when our entire senior leadership and two of our best on air correspondents were cruelly fired without cause. They stood for fairness against the forces of political bias They stood for professionalism against chaos He says that for his part, the new management has instructed me to inject falsehoods and bias into a politically sensitive story. I've been told to include assertions that are untrue. He also says that in one case, a story that he was involved in The entire program came within nineteen minutes of not getting on air at all due to what he describes as the incompetence and unprofessionalism of the new management. But these claims of political bias, which are being repeated by multiple figures still at the network and several who have left creates a real issue for the BBC, which continues to use CBS as its official a U. S. news partner doesn't disclose to the public when it cites CBS that these issues are now bedeviling the network and of course is in a very difficult position because it's being sued by Donald Trump for ten billion dollars And any attempt to kind of move away from CBS might only inflame the president of the United States and have some implications for that legal case. But CBS in pieces this morning and a situation that I think is becoming increasingly untenable for our public broadcaster I mean, the implication, if that's a strong enough word, clearly being that CBS is being turned into an outlet that will not brok or allow criticism of Donald Trump. and worse that all coverage has to reflect whatever it is that Donald Trump wants to hear. A situation that's unlikely to be criticized by Tony Blair anytime soon, Simon, given that he has gifted the time of talking about two hundred fifty seven million pounds to the Tony Blair Institute. but I digress. At least there's good news over intelligence This guy Bill Polt, he looks like a very experienced spy I mean he's practically James Bond crossed with Um Think of a very famous American spy quickly. Who's like the American James Bond Sielder? This joke's not working at all. There's no American James Bond. Matt Damon, whoo does Matt Damon play? Anyway, he's basically the American James Bond Simon Yeah, there is no American James Bond, and he certainly isn't. You're talking about Bill Palty, who's just been named the new director of National Intelligence by President Trump acting to replace Tulsi Gabbard, who of course has quit the government over her as a result of her husband's cancer diagnosis, She says that she needs to be with him and can't remain in post. I mean, Bill Pulty has come across from the country's housing regulator where he has been accused of producing evidence that investigators can use to bring possible criminal cases against figures that have wronged Donald Trump, particularly accusations, for example, of mortgage fraud that have been brought against a couple of figures here, and all of this just underscores the nature of government has no interest in qualifications for a position like director of National intelligence. The real qualification you've got to have is complete loyalty to the boss. A position Bill Pulty demonstrates that in Sade. Indeed in a background in real estate development, perhaps even inevitably you could say now. and it's a position that was created, of course, in the aftermath of the september eleventh terrorist attack On the one hand reward loyalty, on the other, excuse criminality if loyalty is part of the play. That side of the Trump project, not going so well today No, the weaponization fund that we were talking about last week, this one J Jackill J Jack Jack Rites carry on Simon. Sorry, Simon. Pase no, James Bond. no That one point seven seven six billion dollars weaponization fund is now going away, according to the acting attttorney General Todd Blanche no payout coming for the january sixth insurrectionists. But important to underscore that the elements of the deal that Donald Trump struck Immunity from any further investigation into his past tax affairs, or the past tax affairs of his businesses, or the past tax affairs of his immediate family members, that absolutely stays in play and that may be far more valuable to him than that weaponization fund was ever going to be. Great star and Jason Bourne, of course, but you're right to repeat that. It's one of those things you can't repeat too much, isn't it? An immunity from investigation for the tax affairs of your entire family It's like the borges And we haven't had time to mention this extraordinary new Aliens website, but we may have time to do that tomorrow, Simon Marks live from Washington, DC where I can see in the background that hideous wrestling ring. haveave you got tickets Have I got a ticket? No, I won't be here sadly, James. I'm going to be on your side of the Atlantic. I'll be in the studio with you when they are celebrating Donald Trump's eightieth birthday. It does rather look as though transformers have arrived in Washington, DC and set up immediately behind the White House. and there might be some that would welcome that move if it had really happened. The transform is indeed, Optimus. Where's Optimus Prime when you need? Thankk you, Simon Marks. That's it for me todayod. You can listen back on our free global Per app or indeed on the LBC app, where you can also stay up to date with all the latest news, videos and opinions that there as well including mine and the best bits from this show every day. downownload the official LBC out for free from your upstore now comoming up at four on LBC. it' Tom Stwarber, but now it's time for Sheila Foggy. Thank you very much, James. If you can't see Nigel Farage's game in his response to the appalling murder of Henry Novak