Nina Conti and the art of ventriloquism

This is LBC from Global, leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien It is three minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'll just run through that again because no one else has this morning. The police force accused of Anti white racism after officers' response to the murder of Henry Novak is more than five times as likely to subject black people to a stop and search as white people That's not an opinion altogether now That's counting. And it is absolutely essential that you do not mention that if you are in the business of pretending to believe that such a thing as anti white racism exists. I got schooled yesterday by two women One was a guest on the program and one is a presenter on this radio station that comes on after me And they both speak to the story that I just alluded to, but only one really speaks to the conversation that we're going to have in the first hour. You probably want to know what those are. what those two lessons were. Sheila Fogty mentioned at the top of her show yesterday just as I was leaving that we hadn't heard enough voices from people of colour when it comes to reactions to the idea that our police forces in this country routinely found, of course, to be institutionally racist against people of colour. We hadn't heard from many people of colour on On the station, let alone just on my program about their reactions to it. And it was one of those moments where I kind of did a Homer Simpson. I sort of went No Because Sheila was absolutely right and she made some extraordinary radio yesterday by inviting people from ethnic minorities to comment upon this frankly ludicrous narrative that is now dominating discourse across all of the places. Forgive me for repetition that told you to trust Boris Johnson, that Brexit would be brilliant, that Donald Trump was a legend, that austerity was going to solve all of our problems, that Liz Truss was an economic genius, that Benjamin Netanyahu would be good for Israel and good for the world. All the same people making all the same arguments and getting them wrong in all the same ways, now moved on to pretending to believe, or perhaps even believing. mayaybe they're that bent that that why anti white racism is actually a thing, something that would be I presume a combination of Hilarious and horrifying to people who have ever stuck their head out of their own window for more than thirty seconds Um And the other Lesson. Oh no, I don't know. All right. Okaykay. so Sheila schooled me. I don't know if Jessa Sato schooled me or not. She's the MP that we spoke to yesterday with regard to her plans to sue her ongoing case So Sue Elon Musk's AI company, Grock in particular, the element of Twitter or X over fake sexualized images. This is the means by which people using Elon Musk's technology can create images or disseminate or literally just sort of muster up images of child sexual abuse and then make money from spreading them There's some debate over whether or not the claim that they had stopped the technology from delivering this capability has and has worked or not But they the The technology is real. The people that are routinely claiming that we need to protect our women and our girls are exposing women on their own social media platforms to frankly hideous abuse and misogynistic verbal violence. and of course, visual violence as well U And I asked her whether she'd left the platform And she said no. And she made the argument that it would somehow involve concediving ground to the misogynists. And I don't know. And the problem is I've spent this week reflecting on all the things I'm not. You see I'm not a woman I don't know if I can argue with Jessis Sato about whether or not conceding grounds to misogynists would be the consequence of quitting Twitter And I'm of course, I'm not color either. so I don't know what it would be like to hear various blow hardards, liars and bigots claim that the police forces in this country are biased against white These are things that I am not. Of course, in Nigel Farag's universe, I as a privately educated white heterosexual, middle class professional who is in possession for now of all his mental and physical faculties, I am a member of the most discriminated against group of human beings in this country I mean, who here would want to be a white, privately educated, middle class, well paid professional, heterosexual in full possession of all of his physical and mental faculties? I mean, who on earth would want to be running that gauntlet, eh? walking that tightrope on a daily bonestly? I get out of bed every morning wondering where the next attack is going to come from? P. That's a miracle that someone should give me five million pounds to pay for my security in case someone decides to lob a milkshake roughly in my direction later today Unbelievable risks that I take every time I step outside my door because I'm a white middle class, privately educated, heterosexual profession in full possession all my mental and physical faculties. Oh won't somebody think of the white middle class privately educated well paid professionals in full possession of all heterxual well paid professionals in full possession of all whyyon't somebody think of us I wish I was joking, but that seems to be the direction of traffic at the moment Paused So u reflect on whether or not I have the right to suggest to people like Jessisato that they should quit it. And The analogy I use is like imagine if you've got on a bus. And someone started abusing you Bos and You can take them on, you can humiliate them, you can point and laugh. But then the entire bus bus driver literally controls who can get on and off the bus and is packing the top deck with people who are going to join in, not with the anti misogyny, not with the defence against the racists, the bigots, the misogynists, the homophobes, the driver of the bus the owner of the bus company has instructed the driver of the bus literally tie gags around the mouths of the people telling the truth and give enormous amplifiers to all of the people shouting the racist and the misogynistic lies. Not only that But he is making sure that there are about a thousand of them in every conversation on every bus compared to about one of the people who are either repulsed by it or victims Of it And that's why I think that it is time the Government and for all Members of Parliament and actually for all media companies, including this one, come off Twitter entirely I look at what Elon Musk has been doing on there in recent days and his involvement in the Henry Novak trial, his desperate attempts to f foment FOM ENT as a couple of you pointed out to me yesterday at foment civil war in this country. I mean, literally Literally telling people to go out and fight spreading absolute lies about everything from Henry Novak's murder to the safety of the streets of our capital city And that's just the owner. What happens as a consequence of the owner controlling what goes on there to me is absolutely unbelievable. It's a weird one this at eleven minutes after ten because I've got a bunch of problems, I've got loads of problems, but that ain't one. The first is I used to love it And I was quite an early adopter. I wasn't meega early. I remember looking at how many followers Richard Bacon had. When I first got onto Twitter and I remember thinking could grave, I mean, how does that even happen? How can you get a million followers? If you're a radio program presenter That's just extra. but when I left, I had I think one point three or one point four million. And my account is still there because of course if I abandon it, someone will open an account with the same name, pay Elon Musk if you quid for a blue tick and pretend that they're me, whichich would be fine if it was funny, but it wouldn't be funny, and there'd be nothing anyone could do to stop it because the place is now almost entirely unregulated and controlled. Well, except it's not uncontrolled. It is controlled to prioritize hatred. It is controlled to promote people who are making quite significant sums of money from spreading hatred and lies. It is literally not literally, but it is a cesspit and I I'm also a little bit conscious, another of myriad problems is that I don't want to sound holier than th I don't want to sound like, Oh well, I did it, so you can as well. Maybe it's not that easy. I've got a Bloming Great radio show. I don't know if you've noticed. If you haven't, you're listening to it Right now along with one and a half million other people every week So I don't really suffer from the lack of platform or lack of exposure that Twitter provides. And I'm conscious of personalizing this a little, but I think I have to because I don't want to be holier than now. I don't want to sit here and say all of these people should come off Twitter. For some MPs and for some people who are not evil. It is one of the only places you can go to reach the public And of course, LBC still puts up clips of me on Twitter So in a way, I'm having my cake and eating it that I'm still there My face is still there, but I'm not there like McCavity. So I'm conscious of having a very peculiar perspective on this question I look at other people, but of course, by dint of where I look, they are peculiar people as well. So I might see one of my favourite newspaper columnists, Ian Dunt, frequently opining that everybody should get off Twitter. But Ian's got a newspaper column. So don't do you see what I mean? And I'm sure he's a cleverr bloke than me, so I'm sure he's aware of these nuances in these difficulties as well It is obvious that Elon Musk is using our country as some sort of petry dish for a race war. And if you spend all your time on Twitter and you are seeing almost exclusively right wing comment like Kammy Badench is, then you could end up thinking that this is some sort of reality opposed to a carefully created alternative Universe Camy Badenock in the last couple of days has come out and claim that we're close to civil war, which is a position you could only arrive at if you spent, I don't know, ninety eight percent of your time scrolling aimlessly through right wing Twitter accounts But Elon Musk wishes us harm. A labour MP is attempting to sue one of his companies after his technology created fake sexualized image on images of her And it allowed people to create fake, sexualized images of children One of onene of the mothers of one of Elon Musk's own children is suing him for exactly or suing the company for exactly The same thing And when I don't know if this is a curse of KS Stama or a curse of coverage of Kir Stama. But when u Here Starmer comes out and condemns him, it feels like a little too little. Well it doesn't feel like quite enough and it feels as if perhaps it's all happening a little too late A police officer who left the Hampshire pololice force in twenty twenty four, nearly two years before the murder Henry Novak has had to go into hiding I'll say that again nearly two years before Henry's Hideous murder She's had to go into hiding in this country After Elon Musk's technology, Elon Musk's platform spread false claims that she was involved It is, as she said in a statement Alarming to see how quickly a piece of outdated media can be weaponised by algorithms and accepted as fact by AI platforms, despite being factually impmossible Musk claiming that legacy mainstream media somehow is hatefully racist against whites be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous. By legacy mainstream media, he means the Daily mail. which is of course, hatefully racist against whites. He means the Daily Telegraph, which is of course hatefully racist against whites. He means the Daily Express, which is of course hatefully hatefully racist against whites. He means the sun. I'll tell you one thing, donon't go near the sun if you're white. Honestly You'll come away traumatised. Don't go near the daily mail if you're white or the d it'd be like walking into the lion's den Won't somebody think of the white, middle aged, middle class, privately educated heterosexual men who are fully possessed of all their mental and physical faculties because everybody knows we're the real victims in this country. Nigel says so. So whatever you do if you're white, don't go near legacy mainstream media because it's hatefully racist against whites. What is he even talking about I don't think he could tell you except to say either that he believes the builds that is being. artificially disseminated and promoted on his own platform or he's up to something a little bit more sinister than that I don't know. who here wouldn't trust the bloke who gives Nazi salutes in public? Sorry, Roman Roman salutes public. U So what is the argument for staying on there And Is it an argument I can't quite see because I happen to be currently the most listened to Speech radio host in the History of British Cmercial Radio whichich means I don't really have a I only noticed this this morning when I was preparing to talk to you. I sort of getting on my high horse about it. to lay down the law. And it was talking to Jess Sato yesterday that made me think after the show about why my initial response was to tell her that she's wrong You know, whenever I find my initial response to a woman is telling them that they're wrong, I have somehow over the last few years, managed to press pause on my opinions and think maybe it's you that's wrong. The introduction of the word manplaining to my vocabulary has been incredibly helpful inccredibly helpful So the question of maybe I think that because I'm a man And of course the introduction of the phrase white privilege, incredibly helpful. Maybe I don't understand that issue actually properly, because I'm white. Therefore I've never been exposed to all of the things that people of colour are uniquely exposed to in any pluralistic society where the majority is massively white So I don't think it's manplaining, but it might be presenterplaining to say to people who need Twitter to get their messages across. I don't think you can put the goovernment on that list though, can you? And the government could easily arrange for its messages to be widely disseminated without having to step in or even dip a toe into Elon Musk's Cesspit So that's the question That's the question Oho three, four five, six zo sixzero nine seven three Do you think that let's start with the government But let's also talk about you. And in fact, I really mean that. Let's not talk anym more about me. God knows how boring that can be. I've put my cards on the table. I don't think my opinion actually my personal behavior doesn't matter And my opinion on what other people should do is massively compromised by the fact that I've got a massive platform right here right now why didn't the music start when I said that. Anyway, I've got a massive platform right here right now, so my opinion, my behaviour on this, I don't think matters much I think I can say the government has to come off And for people who have still been on there, perhaps a little bit of guidance on how awful it's become for those of us who don't really know anymore So question number one, should the government now come off Twitter because the bloke that owns it is a foreign or wishing ill upon our country and spreading Propaganda and lies about our country. Sould the government now come off Twitter? Hit the numbers now you will get through. zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three. Should you come off Or why won't you? Why do you think you shouldn't and ust how awful is it? Now for the benefit of those of us who've either never been on it or who managed to walk away some time ago Hit the numbers now you will get through. zero three, four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three is the number you need. James O'Brien on LBC call zero three four five sixzero sixzero nine seven three. And here is just one example. Here is Kathy Newman now at Sky News revealing what happened to her on Elon Musk's platform after she interviewed one of Nigel Farag's donors who got rewarded with a job. If you give Nigel Farage's party quite a small sum of money, you get a job in the party. If you give him a huge sum of money, then it would appear he will tailor policy proposals in order to make you much richer. moreore on that a little bit later in the programe. But Zeia Yusf, who I think calls himself Shadow Chancellor Um desespite not even being an MP, it Kathy interviewed him and the army of real people, racists, bots, trolls, whatever they are on Twitter responded as they have been primed, programmed and instructed to do. Ever since interviewing the Reform Party spokesman Zia Yusuf about this on Tuesday, I've been delued with misogynistic abuse and death threats on X, but also Instagram. I just want to read you just a very small fraction of the post. So here's one just watched your interview with Zia, your revile rotten C word The questestion is, Kathy, are white lives more important than black lives? and why do you feel that way You need something between the eyes and then there's a kind of target sign there Then the next one, you're a racist C word that needs to be eliminated in capital letters Well lots of pure cold rage there, Nigel. Should the government come off that platform? And she paded Instagram as well. I'm going to confine the conversation to the platform I used to know best for now at least And should you zero three four five six zo six zero nine seven three, Tim's in Belfast. Tim, What would you like to say Good morning, Jane I think the government and I think you should get back onto Twitter. What happens when everybody leaves Twitter is it leaves it as a single platform that is used by the right. It reinforces all of those that are on it because there's no debate And unless there's no debate there now Well, there is, because I live in Northern Ireland, I have about twenty four thousand followers. We have a pretty ferile political atmosphere over here which isn't probably heard much about because it still exists, you know, Catholic Protestant Republic in that Unionist And there's debate and argument goes on all the time about whether I try to stand up to the traditional Union of. Butly in an environment, James, where the BBC in Northern Ireland is as biased as it is in the Un Well your experience may justify your position, and that's partly why we're having this conversation today possible purpose is served by Kathy Newman continuing to expose herself to that sort of treatment when there will be barely a single voice either supporting her or challenging it. And the algorithm will be primed not only to deluge herer word with that hideous abuse, borderline criminal in some cases is possibly criminal, in fact in some And Elon Musk has actually engineered the system to be like that. So you might be spared the worst excesses of it. But the worst excesses are the reason why the government shouldn't be there But I do I completely understand that. But the point I would make is if if everybody leaves it, one of the greatest revelations of Twitter and other social media is how many complete lunatics there are out there I mean and that's not to in any way enable them. But if we don't know those people are out there, how do we stand up to them? And if we just let them resfully respectfully, Tim, we know they're out there because They've got their own political party. They're writing columns for the daily Mail. it's just the ones that do it for free that are populating Twitter. And and you can't, I don't know if you have any experience of this. That's not a patronizing thing. You can't touch the sides. Oh there, I mean my departure from there, and I know I'm not supposed to be talking about myself, but as a prominent liberal voice on British liberal voice on Twitter I wouldn't get My messages were being put in front of people very deliberately who would respond to me in a milder way of the way that Kathy Newman was responded to. But my experience on there was pointless by the end. There was literally no point in me being there Well So you weren't debating and you couldn't engage because they actually weren't letting you But at least you're there, James, becausecause if you're not, well let me just of course I will, of course will If you're not there, then it's just another media channel that joins in with the Daily Mail, the Telegraph, the Times. I say I'm going to put you down as raified, Tim. I'm going to put you down as rareified Tim. in Belfast, your experience is rreified. You're moving specifically in the area of Northern Irish politics, particularly, which obviously has hasn't got Elon Musk's goat in a particular way. But if you're on a bus And the bus driver is literally letting on people who only want to get on the bus to abuse you like they were abusing Kathy Newman, to fomerent civil war on that bus despite the fact that the owner of the company lives on the other side of the Atlantic, to deliberately silence and mute all of the people telling the truth and saying decent things, then it's not a surrender to get off the bus, it's madness to stay on it that the surrender position is if if you're not there at all then you're even more invisible Well, if a tree falls in the woods and there's no one there to hear it, did the tree ever fall at all? Timy? ten twenty seven is the time. Emma is in bitterford Emma, what would you like to say Hi, I've kind of got to agree with Tim actually. I came off Twitter a few years back because I world to live with their shenanigans. It was just cruelty and it was vile, it was disgusting and it was vitriolic and it was just It was a very horrible bus to be on. and Unfortunately, I gave up and I got off U Bnce now that I should be back on that bus because somebody's got to be fighting some somewhere. Somebody has to stand up and go This isn't right. Do you think a Nigel Farid fan has ever seen one of your tweets or indeed one of mine and gone, oh my Lord, I've somehow been turned into a racist. I think I'm going to change my mind immediately No So what fight is it that you're having The factight is that there's bound to be somebody who is on. Not if it's engineered So what you're talking about is you're talking about the importance of being on a level playing field, even if you're massively outnumbered I am talking about making sure that there is a playing field to be on. But there isn't, isn't there? If the playing field is vertical Not even close to horizontal. It's not even skewed. The playing field is completely vertical. What's the point of being on there? You're never going to reach anybody who's reachable because it is engineered to stop you from being seen if you're being equable liberal decence. That's valid. You're talking about the algorithm, but the algorithm will also work for us because if you and I were both back on there, friends and then we brought our liberal friends in and Sorry, I got well over a million followers, so I can tell you categorically that's not true Categorically from experience How were you trying to work it? Were you asking people to bring their liberal friends in? I was, I think, according to Reuters, I was in the top five influential people on there But what were you asking people to do? How come you don't know? O look. How I was doing what I'd do on the radio. I was doing exactly what I'd do on the radio. And of course I was also promoting the clips of me talking on the radio. and it used to reach parts that other media can't reach, and then it got shut down completely by the algorithm. W with respect, I'd forgotten that. I literally was certainly in the top ten of the most influential journalists in this country on social media. Even after I left I'm still in the top ten is a massively wonderful for you to be able to stand on. Of course it is This is a massively wonderful platform for me to be able to stand on because people can ring in equally. Everyone's got a fair crack of the whip. someomeone wants to have a swing at me, they can. But if Elliot today was saying you can only come on if you're going to call James a C worord That's the only people we're taking on the show today are the people who are going to shout the C word, Keith, Mate, not until it's your break, all right If all you're going to do is come on and shout the C worord at me, then they're the only people that can come on the show. And that I'm afraid, Emma, is exactly what happened to Kathy Newman yesterday. I'll remind you of her words Ever since interviewing the Reform Party spokesman, Zia Yusf about this on Tuesday, I've been deluged with misogynistic abuse and death threats on X, but also Instagram. I just want to read you just a very small fraction of the post. So here's one just watched your interview with Zia, your revile rotten C word The question is Kathy, are white lives more important than black lives? and why do you feel that way You need something between the eyes and then there's a kind of target sign there Then the next one, you're a racist C word that needs to be eliminated in capital letters thirty one minutes after ten. So I wish it was true that you can somehow fight the good fight on there, but it is absolutely engineered so that you can't and that's not an opinion Counting This is LBC. Message James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three four five six zero six zero nine seven three Daphne writes, Elon wants you to for Elon Musk wants you to feel like your fight makes a difference. That's the trick, but it's just the engagement that pays him. I don't think Elon Musk cares about the money, does he? I mean I presume he's never going to turn a profit on the investment that he made in Twitter, but he cares about the money in the sense that he can pay various racists. Most of the racists posting hideous content about the United Kingdom aren't in the United Kingdom Did you know that You've got some Blokan in in Asia who's worked out that he can make and certainly of course, the income In some countries it's going to go a lot further than it would here. So I think the most recent case involves a Muslim left somewhere on the subcontinent who'd realize that if he posts islamophobic hatred on Twitter, he's going to make quite a decent Quiddage out of it is going to make quite a lot of money out of it Various far right MPs are making proper money out of it in this country. So the money matters in the sense that Elon Musk can give it to racists But it certainly doesn't matter to him And of course they're now paying for the sort of blue tick validation that used to be confined to real people whose identity was clear to see or real organisations with reputational with reputations to protect and uphold. Now a Billy bunch of numbers with a bulldog avatar and sixty seven flags in his biography can pay Elon Musk a few dollars and look like He's a trusted entity. It hasn't just been broken. It's been deliberately and completely destroyed So why is the government still on there? And nudge the conversation now We both call us so far of the view that people and individuals should stay there. Tim certainly arguing that the government should as well cautiously and I hope not condescendingly suggest that you're making the debate of thinking or the mistake of thinking that the debate is on there is in any way real, because of course it isn't and why on earth would the government want to be on there when the owner and the algorithm are dedicated to not only the destruction of our democracy but also U In the case of the owner, civil war on our streets it' just pet It did beyond pathetic. I think the only reason we're having this conversation is it got so big so quickly So it feels like trying to take the eggs out of a bait cake. Whereas in fact, just press that button and it's gone. In fact, why not just regulate it? So all of the people that have made death threats against Kathy Newman If you can't work out who they are, you put the platform on there Um Put the platform in the dog Sorry, you are responsible for these public death threats I maybe give them half an hour or an hour. If you don't take them down after half an hour or an hour, then we're coming after you for incitement to violence or incitement to murder And maybe I don't know, go after the owner even. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. But my goodness me, if I published that, if I said something like that, if I issued a death threat against somebody on this programme, I'd be in trouble. LBC would be in trouble, Global would be in trouble. OfCOom would have an aneurysm,' be I'd be absolutely extraordinary And yet the people on there now, they can reach more people than I can reach on my radio program potentially, theoretically, publishing death threats. No it doesn't matter s just a bit of fun F freedom of speech Don't be so wot So extraordinary. I'm genuinely extraordinary Uh Dom's on the wheel, Dom, what would you like to say? Morning James, Hay Friday to you. Thank you very much, Domom I think you just stole half my funder there. phoned to say I phoned in to say that as far as I'm concerned, all social media, not just X should be treated as publishers. They're making money They're making money from what's being published on their sites, by advert or by reach or by whatever selling data, they should be held responsible in the same way the time as would or the daily sale or the sun or whichever old dead tree media is held accountable supposedly obviously part CV news. Is it Is it just like likeike I just said and I'm sorry, I wouldn't have gone off on that stick if I'd known that was the point you were going to make is it because it rose so far, so fast that we kind of because it began with sort of nice pictures of cats and before Musk came along and before Facebook changed It could still be perceived as a force for good. That of course, is why Musk bought it because it was allowing ordinary people access to opinions that weren't bought and paid for by billionaires. And that's the thing that they're terrified of most But is it because it got It got so big so quickly that the idiocy, the absurdity of them being able to publish everything from death threats to blatant lies to sexualized fake, sexualized images of children has somehow grown up in a vacuum where nobody is ultimately responsible I think there's a craziness for validation from government, ministers, departments, individuals. I mean, there's some very respected journalists that I respect.. I think they're good journalists. I don't understand why they're still on X A couple of them responded to me and said, well I've got hundred fifty thousand followers, clearly not a million James and not James O'Brien. No, that doesn't matter. I mean I'm not being glib. I don't think I matter much in this conversation. But they're saying they're terrified to come off because they're terrified of losing that reach. But they don't do any numbers anyway. don I think the algorithm is shutting them down anyway. Maybe they don't realize that they are not reaching people in anything like the scale that they would be if they were posting you know, AI lies about Henry Novak's murder. It's literally engineered to keep them in the darkness and to put the racist in the light I think every decent government department, journalist, company, whatever goes on X now legitimize them. And as you say, their voice will be minimized and everybody will be f more far right rubbish by the far right owner. I came up about three, four months after Musk bought it because so it started to happen straight away a I've got better things to do with my life than be deliberately provoked into a rage a worry A word if you would on the idea that that involves some sort of capitulation or surrender You made a point better than, good regarding the playing field, it's not a playing field, it's a sewer. You're climbing down into a sewer being forced by the contents of said sewer. Whether you go down a nice ham sandwich or you go down the lovely bit of butattenberg cake orry it's filly. I don't think I on a det or lack of. That' quite all right. You're going to be forced fed the same rubbish that the owners of that sewer want to feed you. It doesn't matter what your intentions are. You have no say in the matter. That's really yeah. And that is the big change. And maybe some people's experience doesn't reflect that, but that is the reality of the bigger picture. Thank you, Dom In talking about things you can and can't say in this country Here's something. Imagine if a left wing journalist had said this in the last couple of days. A feeling that with life having been comparatively kind to me, perhaps there is something I could put back. I have these thoughts about once every month and usually they are idly dismissed because they are either unrealistic or homicidal For example, and this is the imaginary left wing journalist commenting in a public forum. It would be well nowigh impossible to smash every single white middle class, middle aged right winger in the throat until his tracheir exploded in a Kiaroscaro of livid pink foam and vaporised black lung stuff. A left winger immagine if Owen Jones wrote that about right wingers probably would have heard a phoneing about it already this morning. Owen Jones writing in the Guardian about how much he wants to punch every right winger in the throat until their trachea explodes in aoscoro. I don't even know what that means to be honest. I'm probably pronouncing it wrong. Of livid pink foam and black black vaporized black lung stuff. way too many tracheas and not it that's anti white racism, isn't it Isn't it oh, hang on? it's Rod Liddle, the spectator, a bloke that received a police caution for assaulting his own girlfriend and once wrote about how he couldn't be a teacher because he wouldn't be able to stop himself raping all the children that he'd taught That's acceptable in right wing media in this country Elon Musk looked at the media in this country and thought he looks at legacy media like the spectator and thinks it's anti white So those double standards are extraordinary and then along already extraordinary and then along comes Twitter. to say, Ill tell you what, I tell you who we really need to be looking after in this country. Yeah, the victimised white people U Terrence is in Chingford. Terrence, the government, the government, the government. What should they do? Yes, I mean, I think the government should delegitimize Twitter, but my fund has been stolen in that I also think there ought to be some kind of legislation to treat social media as publishing I don't even go further that even. because I think I think we all know that I just need to issue a correction. I just said that Rod Lidl had received the police caution for the assault of his girlfriend. I should have said his pregnant girlfriend. Sorry, Cry on carry on tes. no wor' there. But I think I want to go further than that because there are certain politicians who are exploiting social media and adding to be a arest for want of about description and As you will know, public servants, judges, police, civil servants, they're bound by a code where they're not supposed to promote discrimination. they're supposed to promote fair treatment for everyone But there certain access are just using social media to actually do the exact opposite. I just wonder if MPs and the Lords ought be held by the same code Is anybody else who works for the public and if anybody insights you know racism or sexism or anything else. How do you think this has happen? How do you think this has happened? I mean, I mentioned that article by little because if he named someone specifically I'd presume that there'd be some sort of sanction in place, although newspapers aren't exactly heavily regulated. Broadcasters are, I mean, I can't even talk about question time last night. And I'm not going to say anything else about it because I'm frightened of all the reasons why I can't even mention question time last night. How has it happened I'm puzzled to be honest because in any other business, if you make a project it harms people You're held liable. Yes Cany iss held liable and the director is the CEO will be liable if theyre negligent. Is it because it grew up. It sort of grew up around us. One of the first things I clocked by doing this show. we're going back twenty years now was that the law was lagging way behind the technology when it came to the internet. I did a phone in on if I post something libeless and the server is in America And I'm in France and it's about you and you're in Chingford. and the company is owned in China. whose legislation would that libel come under I think we ought to just say we don't care if harmsm a Britain. But the British lawwf, we'll deal with it. If you publish death threats against a British journalist, you will be sued. You will be shut down Exactly, That's how it should be. And they used to do it. You I mean, even though it was largely self policing, you would be able to report this stuff and it would be immediately rem not immediately. I mean, I probably had again, a slightly rareified experience, but generally speaking someome yeah, I do remember a couple of things that they didn't take down that I was slightly surprised by. but a death threat I'm pretty sure. The C word used to be a fairly dark yellow to red card. I mean, it could be done internally, but there's no Elon Musk's going to do it unless he absolutely has to I think we was forced. I think the other thing which crosses my mind as well. Well, there's two things. One, What you doing, Making me sandwich. Yeah It's it seems to be some people seem to be making a living out of it. I don't know if you remember Rayo Rke who got jailed for is part of the Farag's riot? No He was making a fair amount of money on Twitter for he's on benefits, but he's also making about fif thousandteen hundred cit a month Making Twitter you sort a sort of professional keyboard warrior and that's what it meant earlier when I was talking about Elon Musk isn't in it for the money, but he's using his money to fund people like the character you referred to, who was I think, jailed for three years Lincoln Crown courourt for stirring up racial hatred during the Farriage riot. You're absolutely right. and only ninety thousand followers, you see. So he would be getting more promotion and more bs than me with one point four million And that hasn't happened by accident. So it's not even democratic in a vague sense or a sick sense. It's entirely bogus. And I don't know it feels like one of those moments where we're going to look back and go, how on earth was that allowed to go on for so long C course the government should be off that platform and of course publishing death threats Um should be facing the full force of the law in the same way that I would If I now made a death threat against someone specific, I presume I could say what Rod Lidittle wants to say about people he doesn't agree with politically, I just never would. because u Well I suppose just because I'm quite well brought up reallyally, I would never speak like that about anybody, even somebody that I disagreed with Quite passionately, it's just a little bit weird. But then again, I would never assault my pregnant girlfriend or or a pine about the fact that I can't be a teacher. I could never have been a teacher because I wouldn't have been able to stop myself raping the pupils. I guess we're just made of different stuff. James O'Brien on LBC. Listen on your smart speaker. just say Cay LBC. T fifty one is the time. A couple of texts before we go back to the phones, Kate writes the real non bot Twitter Ser dwellers are gone. There's no debate, there's no discussion, there's no exchange of views. It's hatred, pure, vile bigotry All this help, the argument stuff is utter rubbish. They've gone and a statistically significant amount of them will never change. I didn't really realize until yesterday, but it's full on idiots corner time. Bots haven't just spread information but created a hate environment where the keyboard Wrior is now utterly emboldened I think you can only really understand How some columnists and politicians, I'm thinking of sort of Kammy Badenoch and most of the telegraph crew can hold the opinions they hold unless they are permanently in the environment that Kate described becausecause it's an alternative, it's a fake, a false universe, where it feels like we're teethering on the brink of civil war I just go out of the house guys, sereriously. J just get out of the house, go for a nice walk go into your nearest big town or city and a taking a show or go to a an outdoor space. I mean, this is are still an absolutely beautiful country. I did the state of London thing with Sian the other night It's not annually that I check up the statistics on this stuff because I need to be across them on a fairly regular basis, but it's only when we're putting together the state of London debate that we that I am really see the clarity. of the numbers. Here are some facts, right? This is met police data And it could not be more of a contrast with what you will see on Elon Musk's rancid platform So mobile phone thefts in London are obviously a massive problem and rising, aboutbout eighty thousand reported in recent years. There have been one thousand one hundred and fifty fewer knife crime offenses recorded in the year leading up to august twenty twenty five Um, I mean that is improvement. Teenage homicide has dropped to its lowest level since twenty twelve There were ninety seven homicides recorded in twenty twenty five in London The lowest figure since twenty fourteen. that works out at one point one for every one hundred thousand people I think it's lower than any city in the UK. It's certainly less than half of New York. It's less even than Toronto and Milan New York is two point eight, Toronto and Mlanta one point six Violent offenses resulting injury in twenty twenty five are five point one percent lower than in twenty twenty four and hospital admissions since the mayor set up a violence reduction unit in twenty nineteen Hospital admissions for young people for knife assault have fallen by forty three percent. But you'll hear some American voice on your radio being interviewed by people who haven't done their research, claiming that we've got big problems in this country and America is a paragon of peace and harmony I mean, it is just insane I don't know where the regulation should end. I mean, obviously, if someone publishes death threats, then both the person making the death threat and the person publishing the death threat should be on the hook for a crime They just should be at the moment, they're not U Or at least the publisher isn't because some people do get hauled over the coals for it. It depends on whether or not the police have got the energy and the inclination to do it because they're not going to get any help from the platform you call for a pg r. in Britain in twenty twenty four and you may end up in jail But only if your call for a pogron picks up the sort of coverage that Twitter is now engineered to provide So that Lucy Connley woman ends up in jail for calling for a program in this country, but apparently that is an exercise in freedom of speech and some sort of folk heroism, according to Nigel Farage's crew He of course is when it's his safety that's at risk, reporting well telling the media that one of his homes has been firebombed where the police say we haven't informed of anything like that. We were investigating a burglary at one of his houses, but no one said anything to us about a fire bomb. But that of course is a question for him to answer. If he ever finds himself in a studio occupied by somebody who's not dedicated to tickling his tummy Um So Twitter is a place where lives thrive. Why Is the government there Why is the government there? Rory's in Bognore reggious, Rory, what would you like to say Hello, James. Yeah. I would agree with almost all of what you've said so far. Twitter is like an alternative reality and deebate and discourse has gone I made a choice in the end to come off of it. I agonized for years and actually understand most of the things a lot of callorders have said about wanting to remain in the debate and maybe have discourse and provide alternative opinions, but In the end, that really became obvious it wasn't effective And when you got down to the Grock incidents with the seSM images at that point when Musk was clearly uninterested in doing anything about it unless he was forced to and I essentially made the decision that I couldn't kind of credit his platform by using it anymore. So I came off of it The government, when they say we need to reach people, it's one of the only ways in which we can inform people. It's one of the only ways in which we can put stuff out there, what would you say to that? I would say that I think X or Twitter has moved beyond that now. It's really just fodder for people to tear everything down. I don't think it's an effective communication tool for the government Why do you think they think it is? Do you think that they being they're just a little bit behind the curl I think a game I think there's a game at play with Musk personally. I think there is a game of influence and a game of almost political, although I realise Musk isn't a political figure. But he's not a politician, but he's a very political figure. Well, yeah, absolutely. And X is essentially the same as the sun. It provides no profit for any of these genius money makers that own them. But they give It allows them to exercise enormous influence over public discourse, including in this country And we've seen must go from massively pushing reform to now he clearly seems to be bankrolling Tommy Robinson and maybe moving more towards Stephven Yaxley Lennon, if you would. Sorry, his correct name, yeep. So I think all this is is Mus continually showing his fluence now reforms seem to be kind of embedded as a normal part of our political discourse in this country, he's now showing them that he can affect them negatively if you wanted to when they and when they gain any kind of traction in government, Yes. I mean, you know, a nice nice little monopoly on far right dissemination you've got there. be ashame if something happened to it seems to be the message that Nigel Farage is receiving from Elon Musk at the moment, which possibly explains his hideous conduct this week because if that wasn't an appeal. appeal to the very worst of human nature, then I don't know what was. So yeah, there is no real case. I mean if the idea that just the government managed perfectly well before it existed Dn't I'm pretty sure. And also I suppose I don't know if this would be suboppttimal. if the government comes off it and the journalists don't Then anything the government says and does is still going to be reported by the journalists. It's just the validation that is provided by Well, it's state sanctioned, isn't it? It's a state sanctioned propaganda hate platform And it's state sanctioned, not just because the state allow it, but because the state are on it It's state validated. it's state vindicated The platform on which Kathy Newman and she's just one example. that's the most recent in my mind and among the most recently egregious She is she is being abused and threatened with death on a platform that the government use And there cannot be in any universe sustainable. but you know now up pop some weirdo to claim that to stop the death threats would be to infringe freedom of speech This is LBC fromr Global, leading Britain's Cversation with James O'Brien It's four minutes after eleven and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we have a slightly different conversation next, and I like this. U Gary Southgate. He's a force for good, isn't he? I kind of wish we could hear more from Gary Southgate. You can hear a lovely full disclosure episode with him from earlier this year. Today's is a bit of a doozy. Don't take my word for it. Clive the Egineer, formerly of this parish stopped me in the corridor earlier to say that the subject of this week's full disclosure is one of his all time favourite people He doesn't understand why genius is not more widely appreciated and I could not agree more Gary Southgate's genius, I think is fairly widely appreciated and it's funny, isn't it? to think about what he and the dramatization by James Graham of his Extraordinary behaviour as England manager when faced with rampant racism has been on your televisions recently of course Dear England is a beautiful piece of work that he's never seen. and for reasons he explained in the episode of Full Disclosure that we recorded together But know you kind of need voices like his at a time when your media is dominated with lies about the police being somehow biased against white people, lies that are obviously very, very carefully cultivated to grease Nigel Farage's passage into Downing Street. because the client journalist who told you Boris Johnson would be brilliant, and this trust was a financial genius, and Donald Trump was going to be great for the world and Benamin Netanyahu would be good for Israel and good for the whole Middle East and austerity would be wonderful and George Osborne was anyway, all of them all of that lot They want farage next. They want to have another go. They are of the view that if you keep banging your head against a brick wall, then eventually the brick wall will yield and your head will be absolutely fine. So they can't obviously promote him on the grounds of policies or on the grounds of his record or on the grounds of decency. So it will have to be the racism that carries him into to Downing Street, which is why they're all joining in It's why the The newspapers that brought you all of the things that I list on a daily basis are now competing disappear further up Nigel Farrager's hideous fundament And it is voices like Gary Southgates, of course, that briefly looked as though they might be able to break that spell, the spell of bigotry that we saw during Black Lives Matter protests and the hideous abuse of England football players by the kind of people currently being persuaded and currently seeking to persuade you anti white racism exists in our police forces. Shall I just do a quick reminder for people who missed it of what the police force that is racist against white people does to black people. Okay, ye, right if you insist. The police force accused of anti white racism after officers' response to the murder of Henry Novak is more than five times as likely to stop black people stop and search as it is white people. So God knows what it would look like if it wasn't biased against white people. And what would seriously, if Hampshire pololice wasn't biased against white people, how much more likely would a black person be to be stopped and searched. because at the moment if you're black and you're in Hampshire, you're five times more likely to be stopped and searched than if you're white. But they're bias against white people. donon't forget that. So what would that figure be in a parallel universe? orr even if the playing field was level If they weren't horribly biased against white people, how much more likely would you be to be stopped searched in Hampshire? Because at the moment it's five times more likely, but they're biased against white people So I can't help wondering what it would be But the days when Gameth Southgate's letter resonated around the country. letter to England Dear England And when people even possessed of faragist views, paused briefly to pretend that they were moved by it and perhaps they put on their Treakly voices while suggesting that this was what we wanted to see and this was wonderful before Reverting to type, they seem a very long way away at the moment, don't they And he's wed into a slightly different or into slightly different territory. lately. And I would like to know what you think about it Um He's a good man, Gary Southgate, and he's a proper thinker. there's still a great deal of snobbery in this country When it comes to sports people in general and footballers in particular There is a sense that if they play football, they can't be clever I remember when Graham Laau received abuse for reading a broadsheet newspaper instead of toilet walls, which seems to be what some middle class commentators think that footboarders should be confined to perusing. And Garary Southgate, I think they arere good friends actually, Gareth and Graham Laau, they are thinkers, they are intellectual people. Do you know as a mark of that snobbery, I can tell you that Steve Copel has a degree because that was somehow Mambites dog territory when I was growing up Steve Copel, the former Manchester United manag player has a degree And that was so rare at the time that it was nototeworthy. I mean, I must have picked that up forty years ago and it was stuck in my brain. The main reason why footballers don't have degrees is that they have to dedicate themselves to football from an incredibly early age. That doesn't mean they're not bright It doesn't mean they can't think and it doesn't mean they're not worth listening to. particularly footballers who've been through the experiences that someone like Gary Southgate has been through, particularly again in public So when he announces that he's turning his attention to male toxicity, to depression, to low self esteem. I think we should all pay attention These are issues that he addressed Last year in the Richard Dimblebeat lecture that he gave to the BBC, a very rare voice criticizing online misogynists who were, in his words to manipulate and trick young men into believing that success is measured by money or Dominance There's an article in the Times today in which he explains so many boys are now lost worries me and it's a rather splendid interview in which he ggest one thing that I want to focus on first, and that is that boys and girls should be taught differently in order to get the best out of them I don't fully understand They conversation this week, and the way in which we can talk about how awful it is that people are treated differently by the police and the way in which many people are pretending not to understand what that means. The best way I can illustrate it to you be to say that if somebody were to throw bacon at me in the street The fact that I am neither Jewish nor Muslim nor vegetarian for that matter means that it would be a very different assault than if I were Jewish or Muslim or a vegetarian And whether or not there should be a difference in charges brought or criminality, I do not know But there is a clear difference in intent If you leave a pig's head outside a mosque, you are doing something very different from what you are doing if you leave a pig's head outside. a church, a Catholic church dite a synagogue. If you leave a pigs headad outside a synagogue, you're doing something sick and hateful If you'dave the pigads outside of church, you're doing something weird So that's what it means to treat different people differently Okay you might also extend it into stop and search territory. So if you're in Hampshire, and you're bllack You're five times more likely to be stopped and searched. so when the police stop you in Hampshire, perhaps they need to explain a little more to you about why you're being stopped and searched than they would to a white person because you're black and you're five times more likely to be stopped and so. These things are not hard to understand unless you are determined not to understand them. And then yesterday we learned that the NHS is to introduce further diversity training, further anti unconscious bias training The headline, of course, talked about more. training for NHS stauff on anti Semitism. It didn't mention most of the headlines, the fact that they'd also be training on anti Muslim hatred. So while the national conversation is raging about anti racism training It is quietly being introduced further in the NHS, but everybody remains strangely silent about that because it doesn't fit the current narrative of pretending that the police are biased against white people So The idea that people need to be treated differently based upon their immutable characteristics. is oddly controversial this week And Gareth Southgate has by coincidence, popped up today talking about fundamental differences between boys and girls that mean they should be taught differently The way boys in particular are taught in schools, he said, should be changed. take account of their fundamental differences. and Only in this way, he believes can the crisis facing boys and young men who feel isolated and are struggling with education, employment, identity and mental health be addressed. I think anybody that's worked with either sex at a younger age knows there are some fundamental differences In the spirit of this week's program I haven't got any personal experience of working with younger people or working with either sex at a younger age I haven't got any experience at all Oh working with either sex at a younger age. So somewhat strangely, I mean and I don't even have it in my own home. I only have daughters. So I haven't got any experience of working with both sexes at a younger age as a father He, obviously we've had boys in the house and I've got nephews and godsons, I've got godsons Galore. I love them all But I don't have any particular insights into what the fundamental I tell you what the extent of my knowledge is On this and I'm probably exaggerating slightly, but I'm not sure I am The extent of my knowledge on this is that if boys are playing in the next room and parents are sitting in this room If it goes quiet parents will worry Girls and listen, this may well mark me out as some sort of low level sexist. I don't know. brring it, bring it You know, bring it all But this is my personal experience. If girls are playing in the next room and It gets very loud, something very noisy happens then the parents will worry In my case, it was a boy and a girl. It was me and my sister playing in the next room fairly quietly, but we were treating the wardrobe as a There a spaceship on a Sunday morning, and Mum and dad were in bed next door and we climbed into the spaceship and sat in compartments quite high up on the shelving. and of course the wardrobe detached itself from the wall and crashed. to the floor. So that would be a oh Lord, that's not supposed to happen noise But if it were boys, it would be, oh Lord, what have they done now, noise So Would it be too tite of me to ask What are those fundamental differences? Because we have put some effort, I personally think erroneously into pretending that they don't exist And I'm not talking about stereotyping. Of course, some girls will want to play with guns. Maybe no children should play with guns and some boys will want to play with dolls, and we shouldn't condition them into thinking that they can' But I don't think until you tell me otherwise that it is Um controversial of Garyth Sougate to suggest that There are fundamental differences between boys and girls and that the way they are both taught at the moment, this is where it perhaps gets a little bit more complex is more deleterious to the interest of boys than it is to the interest of girls. He suggests it might require a slightly different approach when we're educating and developing young men compared to educating and developing young women So just when you think I couldn't be even less qualified to have this conversation I have to tell you that I haven't attended that I didn't attend school with a female Between the ages of seven and eighteen I attended them unif I mean, oddly, my experience must be close to unique. When I was six, I was the only boy in my class When I was seven, I began upon an educational career that didn't admit a single girl until I got to university So I couldn I couldn't be more messed up really, could I when it comes to a conversation like this? I have no idea what the fundamental differences are or what the what the system should do differently. But happily I present a radiohoning programe and I can invite you to tell me. Is he right Is he right? should boys and girls? Because if you're going to teach boys and girls differently, I would suggest you probably need to teach them separately Wouldn't you? I don't know if he goes quite that far, but I don't quite get how you teach them differently if you don't teach them separately One of the things that surprised me most during that extraordinary explosion of misogyny in schools and it started in West London Private schools that campaign was that I somewhat naively thought that if you went to school with girls, you'd be less likely to be misogynistic Speaking of someone that never went to school with girls I thought that if you're with girls every day, then you're going to be less susceptible to misogyny Um I suppose somewhat naively I also used to think that, you know, if you've got a mum, you might be a bit less susceptible to misogyny because all you have to do now I sound like Anyway. Um But going to school with girls, a bit like racism, you know. If you're a very mixed school, then you would recognise your commonality and what you have in common. And I think that can be true and perhaps generally is true But it's definitely not guaranteed So listen, there's a lot to get through here I Problem we've got is that most people probably Comment on this because if you went to a single sex school And you're a boy, you probably got taught differently from how you would have been taught if you were a boy in a mixed school And if you went to a single sex school and you're a boy, you probably don't know how you would have been taught differently if you'd been in a mixed school. So who actually has the perspective too comment on this. what Gary Southgate says feels Fields Correct to me I'm not one for trusting my feelings. I much prefer the facts and that's where you could come in. So should boys be taught differently from girls? Should boys be taught separately from girls? and what happened to you zero three, four, five, six zero sixzero nine seven three If you moved from single sex to mixed or from mixed to single sex. And you were old enough to notice because I wasn't. I went from being the only boy in the class at the age of six and three quarters to being in a class containing only boys at the age of seven. So I wasn't old enough to notice what changed. I had fewer crushes, I suppose But what? what differences are there And Is Gareth Southgate right? Hit the numbers now, you will get through zero three, four, five, six zero, sixzero nine, seven three. And if you're a teac, I mean, obviously if you're a teacher,'re going to be particularly well qualified to comment on this. But what differences would you introduce? How would you teach differently from boys? I sometimes worry that I throw too many questions at you. So let me just focus in on the ones that interest me most. What happened to you? What did you notice When you moveved from mixed to single or single to mixed sex schooling, As teacher, of course, what differences do you note when you teach single sex classes opposed to mixed sex classes? And if we are going to teach boys differently to girls to get the best out of them, what would that involve and what would that mean? ero three, four, five, six zero sixzero nine seven three This is LBC. Message James O'Brien on WhatsApp now on zero three four five sixzero six zero nine seven three I don't want to turn this into a competition, but could this be the subject that I am least qualified to offer an opinion on? I am the father of exclusively girls I attended exclusively bys schools from the age of seven to eighteen And when I was six and three quarters, I was the only boy in a class at a convent. run by nuns I mean, that is the most absurd background to a conversation about whether boys and girls should be taught together and or differently. How can I possibly have an opinion You'll be surprised to learn that I do. I think Garis Sthgate's probably right, but I'd struggle to tell you why, which is where you come in. Deborah's in sitcup, Deborah, what would you like to say? Hello, Jane. Hello, Deb. Despite the fact that you're not qualified and I' spokeen to you before, still very nervous. No it's only me. It's only me. Perry on. I'm terrified I worked in early years for ne all nearly thirty years, mainly in nursery reception, which is up to age six. And the last school I worked in before I retired Gig start teaching the boys in slightly different ways. We found different ways to engage them because we did find They needed a different approach. There's always a free flow and an outside area in those years, and you can go in and out and do active or not active. But we found that the boys often found it hard to concentrate or didn't want to spend time sitting at the table writing imaginative things. And some of the girl some boys would, donon't get me wrong, but in the main, they struggled They liked something practical and while they were still active. So one instance that comes to mind, we setat up outside with cars and with the little buildings and we had them saying You need a license to drive these cars. So you have to write a license with your name and you have to write some of the numbers of the car If you get a parking tickets, people giving up parking tickets, They will write you a ticket. And it was a way of getting them to letters, write their name, understand about the written word. We had crossover, as I say, some girls would come out and do it. So it wasn't prescriptive then, it wouldn't I mean, and would the girls coming out to do it would they wouldn't get bullied You'd have to be careful, wouldn't you to make sure that they weren't feeling weird or bullied or No, we weren't prescriptive and as I say, there would be some boys writing beautifully imaginative works quite happy to sit at a table for a reasonable amount of time. and we'd have girls outside joining in. But we did find that those boys that were harder to engage with writing were more willing to be engaged with writing if it was in a scenario like that more practical and and more active So we're talking about plurality or majorities really, aren't we? We're not talking about entire constituencies. So most boys Most boys benefit from being treated differently from girls in school, taught differently from girls in school I think it would be good to look at the boys or the girls because something might need to be slanted there and say As a cohort In the main, some of them are struggling with this. how can we tailor it more in a way that they find more engaging M How do we think The ways in which boys are taught at the moment are contributing to their vulnerability to toxic masculinity and online misogynists. U Do you mean in their attitude rather than their learning? anythingthing at all, really. I mean, they coming because they seem to be particularly ripe for the likes of Andrew Tate and Silar. believe that mixed schools are the way forward. I mean my grandson is ten and we are hoping that he will go to a mix secondcondary school I mean, I don't know. I haven't got any evidence. noody has, but I can't believe that Tate's following is going to be coullld from, you know, majority single se. No, I don'tose I don't suppose it is. I think if you want to avoid them following someone like Andrew Tay, you've just got to bring them up as a decent human being. I mean, it's got nothing really to do I mean, if they are a good person, which you want them to be first and foremost, regardless of whether they're before you look at their gender, they're not likely to follow O I mean I might nod along to that until I sort of remember some of the cases that I've come across and some of the mothers that I've spoken to expressing absolute horror at what has happened to their children. I think it's partly why that drama adolescence was so extraordinarily effective because it was the first time many people realized that really nice well brought up boys could be susceptible to that sort of thing as well. but I mean, you can be right and wrong at the same time, can't you? I don't get Personally how the mixed schools end up Breathing the misogyny, not just the susceptibility to figures like Tape, but also the behavior towards their own female classmates that we learned so much about about two or three years ago. Deborah, thank you from Sid Cup to Cod. if Joanna is there, Joanna, what would you like to say Hi James. Hello. I didn't realise I felt so strongly about this uil until I started thinking about it. No, until I started talking about it Until you start. That's a little bit of man explaining for you. Just for the record. and I apologise. That was an unforgivable intervention. go on. So I have two daughters. they are eight and ten. Yes. and they are very loud, very Iten use the term feral about them They are wild. And I guess I come at this from the perspective of this isn't about gender. No. This is about how children learn. And my kids are both on the pathway for a neurodiversity assessment. O. And I suspect there's definitely ADHD there and possibly some autism as well. Okay And I think I see that in myself as well. I'm also on the wait list for assessment. And I certainly see in my eldest that she just learns differently She's intelligent accademically she struggles in terms of know memorizing dates. understanding learning in the way that other kids seem to learn I don't think that this is about gender. I think this is about neurodiversity and about brain chemistry and how children and adults trans. I suppose gender could be one of the big signifiers of different brain chemistry, couldn't it? in a way, that's what Gary Southgate probably means when he uses the word fundamental differeces Yeah, and I think I would if if this were to happen, I would feel that my girls were missing out because I think they would require that more practical They might they might they might benefit from the more quotes boyish model of education And I think they would. and I guess J the other point that I would say is I think given where we are in society at the moment, with this increasing divide between males and females, I think splitting the genders would be really detrimental And ye, I mean, the campaign was called Everyone's invited. I don't know if you remember it kicked off in twenty twenty two or thereabouts when it was top London private schools. which I had a particular interest in at the time because my girls went to them Although they went to all girls schools. So they were completely immune to this break of misogyny and sexual harassment. it only went on in the mixed schools. So up until that point I would have agreed with you, but actually My daughters went through school and at least when they were at school, they were spared sexism and misogyny. But for girls who are at mixed schools, it's become and certainly if you remember the details of of that everyone's invited campaign. It was like a sort of junior me too It was It was heartbreaking. It was horrifying what was going on. So I'm not one hundred percent sure that Mix schools are the answer to these problems any? No, perhaps, which is out of interest with the All Bys school What were the results were the results similar? Was there increased misogyny amongst those boys? We were most We were mostly frightened of girls Right. I don't know whether you were right to Well, thank you, Joor. I would never have dreamt of saying that out loud on the radio. But we were mostly frightened of gols and for good or for ill And when I speak to, well, since I had therapy and wrote about it, quite a number of Women from my social class have confided in me about what they have described as emotionally absent partners and exes, men that went to school men that went to schools like mine, single sex public schools, particularly who not only have they're well meaning men and they want to be better partners quite often, but they lack aort something. in their emotional paalte that comes from having been raised in an exclusively male environment. So there are downsides But I'd be fascinated to see some research on where misogyny sat on that spectrum Yeah. t and I wouldn't even like to speculate. But I think you're obviously right. This is about differences that will not be defined exclusively probably are defined largely by gender. and that of course means the new scheme would have to be perforated, which I think is the point Deborah was making is that if this is like a guillotine as opposed to a perforated line then It would be awful for a small number, but a significant number of children. So I wonder what the differences would look like. How do boys benefit from being taught differently from girls? Let's bring some teachers into the conversation. Oh three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three is the number you need. If you're teaching them at the moment and you've got a little earpieceing because it's so boring, then just pretend you're going out for a wheel or something Step into the corridor and give me a ring. Here's Dominic Ellis with your headlines. James O'Brien on LBC. Listen on your smart speaker. justust say playay LBC It's eleven thirty five and we're having a conversation for which I may be the least qualified contributor in the country. Do boys benefit from being taught differently? to girls. Don't ask me. I was the only boy in my class at the age of six and three quarters and from the age of seven to the age of eighteen There were no girls in my class. so I literally couldn't be less qualified to conduct this conversation, which means it's a jolly good job that the swwitchboard is working. What do you think? and teachers as well? I'd quite like to get a teaching perspective on this and the differences between the three different classrooms. A classroom full of girls A classroom full of boys And a classroom with a healthy mix of both. Are there different challenges? Or do we want to get a little bit Victorian and say that you teach everybody in exactly the same fashion? and anyone who can't cope h That is that's that's natural selection. That's survival of the fittest Do you know, Theeresa, you're my second caller from SIigCup in the space of five minutes. What's going on? What's going on? all the television's broken We're all and think up, roll al,' all and thinkink up. Well listen, I'm a secondary school teacher and I taught mixed and girls. I haven't taught all boys, I have to say But and also I think this is still true that the research has always said that boys do better academically in mixed schools.ys do better in single sex schools. And Bys I'm not entirely sure, but it's academically if you ask all the people professors at universities and then ty of cle other people, that's what they'll say. They'll say that boys do better in mixed schools And I think it's partly because it takes out an element of macho competition. And you behave yourself because you don't want the girls think you're stupid. I don't know, that's my only anecdotal inirmation at the moment. But that is said to be the case. as regards teaching them When I was teaching M, yes you do teach them differently. you do appach them differently. And also their response to you is different. for stters that the girls would love to make I'm a a history teacher. They would love to make loads of notes and go away and read stuff and bring it back to you write your anessay. and the boys would go,, that's interesting but have you probably from m this perspective? but may write a think And then we case the exam the boys would steam in and do really well and the girls would not do as well and it wass weird I mean am I am grossly you know what's the word? genereneralizing. That's the word. Thank you. generaling we will do that, but that really that interests me. So I mean, I hate to do this to you . You've raised the specter of Michael Gove I know. Where's my, Wh's my gun? I know. Dt well caref. But but Michael Go of course constructed education in this country to suit people like Michael Gove. and I got a little bit sidelined by that because I I also benefit from the sort of education that suited Michael Gof. So I found myself going along with the idea of having more exams and more assessments and tests because I did well in them. But I wouldn't have known that it was something you could generalize into a boy girl thing becausecause girls generally get better exam results, don't they? when they do public exams? Yeah, ye. ye Yeah yeah, yeah I mean the Rote learning team don't get me on it. I mean, go just sort of cut off a whole generation of lowerab kids that out of exams.. That was the time I left education, quite frankly, I had two to do my eding But yeah, I mean,ote learning thes girls on generally are just more methodical But the boys are were inspirational. And sure we sure that's not we sure that's not entitlement. Are we sure that because you know when I take calls from females and they say things like, Oh I're probably not going to be very good. And I say, why does no man ever say that to me? Yeah And then they usually go on these women callers to be the best callers of the hour that Is that not just a grown up equivalent of what you're describing? There's some evidence of that. The boys are coffee, the boys are girls at M confference. But then again, having said that, I've known some very loud girls as well. So this is really entirely generalised. But maybe what was used to get me is that I'm a girl and I could never work out how these lads did their exams, especially for something like history, without matters of notes been stored away in their bedroom back home. But they did. My andon did it as well So there's something about it. They don't need that level of didaptic learning. They need something which is much more There might be a bit of osmosis. There might be a bit of osmosis involved. I mean, by doing the arguing, we are absorbing ideas and information And then the confidence issue comes back and you sit down in an exam and you read a question, you think I haven't got a scooby do. And I think if some girls would panic at that point and some boys would think, right, here we go. Here we go. I'm' something in that definitely. We're going to wade in. And would most papers be marked by men who are going to be more em I don't by women I should think there' be my experience Yeah That theory doesn't work. then so don I'm not a one hundred percent sure and I appreciate you never talk you never talk exclusively boys boys. I'm not one hundred percent sure what you think the best way forward is. it is for you' mixed with some reservation Definitely.. And I don't know if you can teach boys and girls differently if they're all in the same classroom, we move on to that question as well. twenty to twelve is the time. The way boys are taught in schools should be changed to take account of their fundamental differences to girls It's a week in which we are being told that people don't have fundamental differences, or at least if they do, they're not built upon ethnicity or beliefs If you focus exclusively on immutable characteristics, fundamental differences I find it a heck of a lot easier to believe. I don't think that human beings have fundamental differences particularly, but I do think that if you were to break it down along male female distinctions, then there are some But they're generalities. they're not exclusivities I love the caller who described her own daughters as feral and in a slightly unhelpful way, was used as a way of defining or describing more masculine. So really we should all be accusing everyone of missenery now. And that's very timely as well because remember we live in a country where if you're white, middle class, middle aged, privately educated, heterosexual, and in full possession of all your mental and physical faculties, then you are a victim You are the person that is most likely to be exploited, discriminated against or or expose to racism James is in Bing slope, James, what would you like to say Hi, James at first time Caller because I'm passionate about this subject. One day I'm going to do a show and you're only allowed to ring in if you're called James I like that rule. I think it'd be a good rule. I'll save you your place. What' do you want to say I've got a degree in coaching and management and teaching.. And I coach and teach within schools and we often find ourselves covering other subjects, not just sport. So I've work across N Latin, I bet No, no, no I'm not so good at that. No, but I've worked in schools with all boys, all girls are mixed And I agree with South Ka. I do believe there are fundamental differences. Whether they're nature or nurture or a combination, I think is is something we can't really know. I agree. But I do think that there is value in teaching people differently. and that's something I learned on my degree is that you, in terms of looking at pedagogy, which is, you know, the science of teaching, It's not just boys and girs that should be taught differently. It's every individual. There are so many different styles of learning And I do think that we should teach different people different things because I find that girls often want to know why they're doing something when we're teaching, whereas boys will just generally go on an experiment and often are happier with failure and accepting failure. So those are two fundamentallyes That's fascinating Yeah, particularly within sport So we had a go And it didn't work out, but I'm glad I did it. Whereas with a girl there'd be much more self flagellation involved and much more self doubt Exactly. And I think there this thing m like social media that have to play a part in that too, honestly, even at the younger aggees Can you in a mixed classroom? address Mixed Sensibilities Yes. think you can diffic. You sound great, by the way. You sound like a really good teacher. I'm finding this really interesting. I appreciate it. Thank thank you. It's doable, but it's difficult and no one's denying that. and this is why we have problem with class sizes being too big, we just split people know randomly and actually we don't consider different learning styles that are needed. And so I think that you can do it and I do do it and you often do it through things like you'll talk through something, you'll put something on the board, you'll have physical things they can do and you just mix the different types of methodologies you can use. to actually get through to people Yeah. So you' to be you need to be fully engaged as a teacher, which sadly, but perfectly understandably isn't going to be everybody. That's true in all jobs. there are some radio presenters who F from fully engaged U And you also need to have the resources and the space to provide a little bit more bespoke Education. And that would involve I think I think it's important to bring Bys and girls together. I agree with your notion that it's much harder to breed certainly misogyny when boys and girls are together But I think that it's really important that there are times when we teach separate things to people because different things impact boys and girls And there's no deny in that. And know at various different stages, there are different things that impact on each of them. And so in those life skills classes or PSHC or whatever they call it, are the times those are the times that we have to teach people different things. And those are the times when you need to separate between boys and girls. And that's you, the same thing you do with sexual education. you separate classrooms. And I think those are the times when it's necessaryly need very different lessons, don't you? I mean, there'll be somewhere you want them to convene and come back together again. but when it comes to the biology of it, you're going to have V different needs, personal social health and economic education is what you refer to P H. I just don't want anyone to think me giggling was a mark of disrespect. It was just a mark of sympathy. struggling sometimes to keep up with the nemenfature. Yeah, I think you put it really well. and of courses partly Osborne's raor. And partly, it's the ghost of Gov because Osborne's raisor means you' less likely to have the resources that you need And the Ghost to Gove means that the system became engineered to exclude difference to literally kind of cookie cutter. classrooms and turn them into places where Kids do well. I' tell you what I worry about. I worry about those schools where the head teachers boast about how strict they are. And then they get good exam results. And then no one ever keeps track of what happens next entirely entirely personal and subjective worry this. I've got no basis for it except entirely anecdotal and subjective experiences, but doing I think some people peak in the sixth fm And the rest of their life then somehow never quite lives up to it Its briiant Bru Springstein song about that, isn't there? Do you remember? It's a really Bruce Springstein, It's a genius. I love that guy. I've discovered him quite late in life But there's a brilliant Bruce Springsteen song about people who kind of peeked in the sixth or. in his case, it's high school And I worry sometimes when you see the schools that go full cookie cutter. And then you see the head teachers appearing on television describing themselves as the toughest headmistress in the world or the toughest headmaster in Christendom And they're obviously going to get a significant number of kids through the cookie cutter And the ones that don't fit the cookie cutter, they can fall by the wayside and get removed from the school or never into the school because they're going to damage the overall grades But then then they leave. And they're no longer living in a hot house environment. They're no longer living in fear punishment. they're no longer living in fear of humiliation in class or whatever. and everything just sort of spirals a bit. But I've got no basis for that except a sort of instinctive worry for the children who briefly benefit from the ministrations of a very Victorian education. us a spoiler alert Vorians didn't Leading Britain's Conversation LBC with James O'Brien. Glory days Glory Days by Springsteen, that was the song I was thinking of I mentioned to you a moment ago, I've discovered the boss quite late. I mean, I had born in the USA when I was a kid And I obviously loved that, but I didn't really appreciate his sort of status as a chronicler of American life, working class life in many ways. and I have discovered it subsequently. It absolutely beautiful. But one artist I needed or I thought I knew everything about and needed very little help appreciating is George Michael, as you will know, if you've listened to this program on a regular basis, I bow a few in my love of and knowledge of George Michael's life and music. But I suspect that a chap who's going to be dropping by at half past twelve today, it may be even more Um of a fan and he's written an entire book about it. so he's certainly in the lead at the moment. That is Satnam Sanera. Author of Tonight The Music seemems So Loud, who will be with us at half past twelve Back to teaching, the differences between boys and girls and the question of whether or not those differences, whatever they may be should and could. Constitute grounds for different modes and methods of teaching. Priscilla is an healing. Priscilla, what would you like to say Hi, Yes, I'm fascinated in the subject, and I've got two short anecdotes. One is that there is an idea in studies that boys are much happier to have a go and make mistakes and take that risk than girls are. And that's why boys are so much better at computer games because they't really mind. No, there goes my inbox. There goes my inbox. Now God, your trouble you've just got me into That is very much Priscilla. I will give you Priscilla's address At the end of this conversation, you can take your complaints to her if you think that it is outrageous to suggest that boys are better at computing. They generally do play them more. generally. But I think it's because they're happy to make mistakes. and there's a really interesting thing is that I'm giving up on the new James Bond film. I can't get a flippp in. Heck it's tough at the outset. I don't quite anyway, that's not necessarily what you rang in for Professor Sir Robert Winston went to A West London Glchool and he spoke to the whole school and assembly and asked him a couple of questions, and hardly any hands went up or no hands went up And he said, wow, this is really fascinating because this is science being played out in your school. If I was asking these questions in a boys' school, all the hands had got and they wouldn't really mind if they got the answer wrong, they would just have a go So I think that's really, really interesting. And therefore, what do you do in a classroom where this girls on boys and the boys are happy to Have a go and don't mind just to get it wrong and the girls don't. You know, does that mean that the girls get less chance to experiment because of the fact that the girls And the other thing that I I think was really fascinating. I remember accompanying a class of children on a pond dipping outing to one of the parents' houses And for the first like twelve minutes, we had all the children with their nuts in their buckets and they were utterly fascinated, all looking and really engaged and really focused and literally after twelve minutes All the girls stayed there and they were completely fascinated. not all the boys rampaged around the garden. It was so noticeable. and I think there's something about the need to move, there's something about cursed, et ccetera. So I know those are just general ideas, but I really don't do that. look what you just did I see Isn't that funny? Isn't funny? Isn't that funny? Yeah? I wouldn't get a mail caller. A mail caller wouldn't get to the end and go, well, I know it's just this and that. A mail caller would get to the end of it and going, and you should stick down on a t shirt Exactly.' Gad Saskates are talking about this. Yeah' have these discussions. Let's have these discussions indeed. and well because what you say is I think going to resonate with people who haven't been in a classroom for fifty years. they're going to go, ye, of course that's what the boys would do, Eespecially if there was a football in the garden or something like that or a tree to climb. the girls will remain fascinated by the little creepy crawlies that are coming out of the the pond. Pnd dipping just for the record involves dipping things into ponds like jam jars and examining the results, not dipping the children into the pond. set up Yes. good. It is eleven fifty five. You aret listening to James O'Brien on LBC just for Russell's benefit because we're discussing the effectiveness of bespoke education. What do you mean by cookie cutter? I mean everything is exactly the same. So if you've got a cookie cutter, Russell Then you cut your cookies and all the cookies are identical like gingerbread men whereas It thinkink of it as a one size fits all philosophy. I everybody knew that, but you live and learn. Natasha Clark, I live and learn has been with the Prime Minister this morning. Why? And what happened Good afternoon, James.orrylynoon afternoon of four minutes. I've been with the Prime Minister today in Swinden, he's been visiting a drones manufacturer all ahead of the defence investment plan, which we do expect to be coming very shortly. So essentially this is how much money the Government are going to spend on our defence going into the future. There's been a long running rout about this has been long basically trying to tell defence contractors in the Ministry of Defence we are going to find this money for you, but we need to figure out exactly how we're going to pay for it. Now LBC spoke with Lord George Robertson. He was one of the architects of the Government's Deence review earlier this week. He did warn us that this is going to come with a price. He said that There is going to be likely cuts to departmental budgets in order to pay for this new defence investment plan. So I wanted to put those comments to the Prime Minister today to ask him, is it true that we're going to have to pay for this with some cuts to departments Well, obviously, I've always said we're going to have to spend more on defence. and so we will set out the funding in relation to the Deence invvestment plan. It is about a question of priorities. this is the top priority. I think everybody watching or listening to this will know in their heart of hearts that that has to be the top priority defending our country, particularly at the moment. It does come with huge opportunities because I am absolutely determined that every penny that we spend extra on defence and we will It has to be seen in jobs and opportunities across the country, in every community, because we are saying to the country this has to be the priority, but we also have to say it has to be the opportunity actually for good, well paid skilled jobs right across the country. and I'm determined that's going to be in every community, not just the big defence communities, but in many other communities as well But he also said this has got to be the quote top priority for the country. We know that many Labour MPs were really upset when the government decided they wanted to cut the welfare budget last year. I think Hammer is now going to be gearing up with yet another fight with his back benches who are going to say actually we want to be spending money on education on the health service. And he's going to have to turn around and say, this is now my top priority. I want to spend this extra money on defence He also told me that the government and the UK has to be ready for war. He repeated intelligence that Russia could attack NATO as early as twenty thirty. He did tell me that this plan will be fully funded, but I was speaking to people across Government James that say that those discussions with the Treasury, the MOD and numberum ten are still ongoing and they haven't signed them off yet So Richard Nighten, of course the Chief of the defefense staff saying only this morning that this is the most dangerous period he has ever known and that the UK is facing greater threats than at any time he can remember. So hopefully or probably that will help his Stam will win whatever arguments he has to have. What are you doing now? I've been on the train Im ppping on the train back I'll see soon Jam. I was trying to think I'll be long gone. I was just trying to think if I've got any recommendations for things to do in Swinden Could you let me know? There's a very lovely looking hotel just across the road. I probably don't want to stop at that. No Well, if you want to wait for a while, get the next train. I'll see if any of my listeners have got any top tips, but on the other hand, sounds brill On the other, it could be a very arid hour. That's outa Clarkke saafe Journey home live there from Swinden where Kir Starmer has been visiting a drone factory, which feels like a joke waiting for a punchline. I mean, how how Would they let him out Does that work? You you see what I make these U I bet he fits right in M No, it's twelve notode This is LBC fromr Global, leading Britain's Cversation with James O'Brien It's three minutes after twelve, you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where we turn our attention next to I can sometimes make the mistake of thinking that you have got almost as good a memory of the last twenty two years of this programe as I do. and as you know, mine could be better, but I generally find myself most interested in the things that I used to get horribly wrong, whereas you're probably most interested in the things that I still get horribly wrong Doimo? I think one of the greatest lies we tell ourselves is that it didn't do me any harm What do you say that about in your life When you look back on something and possibly if you tell somebody something, a new partner is often somebody who you find yourself confiding in. and they raise their eyebrows and you say, no, it didn't do me any harm. or you may not actually say it out loud explicitly, but you know that you're subscribing to the It didn't do me any harm, schoolchool of s. It's very much on the same page or in the same chapter as the stiff upper lip, isn't it? The idea that when faced with trauma, you should pretend you haven't been and keep your upper lips stiff, but it didn't do me any harm I was it didn't do me any harm merchant for most of my life, probably until about my mid forties And my main, it didn't do me any harm thing was corporal punishment, would you believe been beaten as a small boy from about the age of ten. by teachers, not by my parents by one teacher in particular, by the headmaster at my prep school. We would queue up outside his study. Remember, not everybody's heard this before We would queue up outside his study. we would listen to the sound of our friend being beaten which in some ways was even more disturbing them being beaten ourselves. and then they would come out And you try youd try and make a little bit of eye contact and give a reassuring nod. And then you would go in and put your hand out, not knowing how many you were going to get. You'd count how many your mate had got. fact this didn't happen that often and it was always the same boys that got beaten, which rather undermines the argument that it worked as any sort of deterrent. And then you'd just hope that it was going to be I think just two on one hand was the minimum you'd get and the maximum I think would be six on each. There was one mythical occasion when a lad was rumored to have got twelve on each hand, but don' I think that was just a sort of urban myth And for years afterwards I would insist that it hadn't done me any harm. too the point where I would argue publicly that it was not necessarily a bad thing to beat children. I'd argue that publicly. I'm very, very lucky in my career that the earliest days of it We're not recorded When I first started appearing on television with Matthew who will be with you tomorrow on LBC, when we first started appearing on television together about a hundred years ago Matthew had his name above the door, on the right stuff the show was called. And And I was on it every day. I just didn't have a very good agent, so I didn't get my name in the title. So And we would have arguments about stuff and have daily debates and suchuch was the nature of the programm that Some days you had to argue things you didn't really believe in And because I was, as you'd imagine, a very cocky young man. I would relish the opportunity to argue the opposite of what I believed in. So I'm very glad that none of that was recorded because of course in the days of Twitter you would be able to pretend very easily that I was arguing what I believed in I when I literally and categorically wasn't and sometimes we would even point it out on air, I think, and say it's your turn to have the tough debate today. And it was usually my turn Um But when it came to corporal punishment, I wasn't I was not indulging in an intellectual exercise in debate. I was arguing from a place of pain that my pain hadn't hurt me And I only discovered that in my mid forties when I started going to therapy It was an incredible moment when my therapist just said, Well, that must have really hurt. That must have been horrible. And I sort of started on the no not at all. It didn't do me any and it got summed for the first time in my life in that context. In that context, it felt ridiculous. and it had never felt ridiculous before, Even in a television studio with it was channel five, So at least eleven people watching Even in a television studio going down the no, of course it didn't do me any harm. as long as it's properly regulated and only one teacher is allowed to do it and everyone's clear about what you'll get beaten for and you won't, it's the only language that some people understand and I know because I was one of those children. And I meant it. I thought I meant it and I did mean it at the time. Didn't do me any harm And u And obviously it did It's a horrible thing to d to a child And now we're going to talk about something else that I pererilously close to thinking that it didn't do me any harm. do me any h And yet it probably did I've just not done it in therapy yet I'm not sure I'm going to need to because it's so long since I had what you might describe as A really terrible boss, like a mean boss And even when I look back upon having bad bosses I don't know that they were bad people. I think we just had a few bad experiences together. So it's Michelle Obama of all people who has brought this question to my attention. Have a little listen Um, to what she has had to say on the subject. This is about resilience in general and generation Z or Z in particular U This is something that she said recently We have a generation of young people in their twenties who think that the goal is their personal happiness, period Like and that is just notot life You know,, you know, I mean Service is a better goal than happiness Because, you know, life is full of bumps and bruises part of her thesis, part of her thinking As she said during a live podcast recording in East London is that Having really bad experiences with bosses is actually good for you Two elements to this. Number one is having a really boring job can be character forming in the long run And number two is having a really bad boss can be character forming in the long run I haven't got a clip at this because I don't think it's been released yet, but it was recorded live and people in attendance have reported that she said E experience Bad boss Boring assistant job job you thought that you weren't appreciated in, the one that didn't give you the assignment you wanted when you wanted it All of that is learning to be Resilient One thing that's important is to learn how to do something you don't like do and be good at it And this This takes me back to experiences and I'm very lucky that I didn't have many and the ones that I did have were confined mostly to My time on newspapers and my time in retail in a clothes shop. when I had bad bosses, or at least I had when I was in retail, I had a really bad boss And you know, the kind of boss. And in fact, this could almost have been the boss that Michelle Obama is talking about you'd be in the shop and it would be quiet So he'd make you unfold and refold a table full of sweaters You have a template, haveave you ever done this? You have like a plastic template and tissue paper and there's a very specific company policy on how you fold each. So you'd have a table. you've seen them all, these tables of sweaters 'use I was working at River Island at the time, but this is very much about the individual boss that I had, not about company policy or anything like that. So you've got an entire table of sweaters And if someone comes in and tries a couple on, you kind of roll your eyes internally and think, I'll flippp ack and have to fold them up again when he's gone But this boss was an absolute git and if it was all a little bit quiet or even if it seemed like we were having a bit too much fun together Me and my colleagues having a bit of a chat ot that many customers in the building. We worked on commission, so you would be delighted to see a customer if one wandered in. But there were quiet days and he'd say, canan you refold that table And you'd say but it's Is it did it yester. I mean, no one's touched it since we last folded it. And he'd just say no, just refold that table. And so we'd refold that table. I don't think that was character forming, was it I think that was just Por, that was close, Keith. Have you got your finger on the btom That was just st Well that wasn't good. reallyally character I want to? I thought this conversation was just going to be about nasty bosses, but it is in a way BeCcause that he was a nasty boss making me do something really boring that I didn't need to do. Was that character forming? Oho three four five six zero six zero nine seven three But it didn't do me any harm bit of the conversation. That is about being monstered Now this doesn't happen anymore in my profession But it used to happen on an almost industrial scale. Some of the younger people that I work with now have the great pleasure and privilege of working almost exclusively with much younger people. Sorry, Keith. They would I mean their eyes water at some of the stories we could share and do occasionally share and being bald at, being screamed at in front of all your colleagues That's awful, right? I mean, Is that character forming? do you think Is that character forming? I remember one occasion and you know, this is funny, I told this story when I was promoting the book in which I talk about a lot of these issues, which is called How Not too Be Wong, the Art of Changing Your Mind. And I told this story on radio four And I got a message off an old news editor I hadn't heard from for about ten years. and someone I remembered quite fondly and he goes, I hesitate to ask you this question, but that wasn't me, was it And it wasn't him. But the bloke who it was I actually like as well. I have fond memories of him as well, but there was something about that environment, there was something about the precedent, there was something about that What would you call it? That context that created these moments ofutter what would now be utterly unacceptable I remember And I didn't I mean, you know, I would once have said I brought it on myself, but I don't know that anybody should have to endure what I endjured onn this occasion, there several occasions, but let me give you an example. I hadn't got any stories I think. And you know, every now and then, the news editor comes around with their notebook, asking what stories you have for the next day's paper. And as show business editor, I haven't got any stories. What have you got? And Id give a couple of suggestions and you'd say, no, that's rubbish and that's rubbish. And he said, you haven't had anything for ages, have you? And you haven't had anything in the paper for a week And I'd say, Well, I gave you four stories on Thursday and you didn't run any of them and other papers did. And that was actually true. So I'd say I gave you that story and the evening standard ran it. I gave you that story and the mail ran it, I gave you that story and so I started fighting back and he was embarrassed And he was obviously biding his time. and I can't remember exactly what the contxt was, but his opportunity came about two days later. I think I'd made a mistake or something like that and he just went nuclear at In front of about one hundred and fifty people, it wass just in the dog days, the final days of newspapers being well populated and well funded and widely read. And he went absolutely tonto Screaming, shouting, you're this, you're that or the other. you're a disgrace. you swun around the place. Some of his criticisms' probably valid, but no excuse for delivering them at the volume he delivered them at And I have a very specific memory of watching almost in slow motion lack of spitittle making its way from his mouth to my lip I felt it land a little bit of spittle making its way from his mouth to my landing on my lip and I'm thinking what do I do And then I remember thinking, I can't cope with this I can't do this anymore. This is unbearable I found the job incredibly stressful. The hours were extraordinary. I mean, bits of it were brilliant And I remember thinking to myself I'm going to faint I'm going to pretend to faint Because that is the only way I can escape from this moment I'm going to pretend to ft. And then my internal dialogue kicks in and says you can't pretend to ft because if you don't go down like a tree They're going to know that you're pretending It's going to be embarrassing enough to faint, but to be believed to be faking a faint would be absolutely fatal. It's an agreeable collection of F's And I don't know, this was before Jillian McKeith went on, I'm a celebrity, Get me out of here. And before Larry David perfected the art of a fake faint because you sort of go down onto one If you faint, you go down like a broomstick, right? You go down like that. If you're faking a faint, you sort of go you go down onto one knee and then you keel over or you perhaps go down and I thought I can't faint. So you know I think I even at that point may have put my hands behind my back like a soldier and just sort of Stood there. just right, I'm going to take this until it's over. I'm not going to reply. I'm not going to answer back. I'm not going to argue. I'm just going to stand here and I'm going to take my medicine What's that character forming? Oh, three, four five, six zero six zero nine seven three. when you look back on two things, right? Tw things I can't say the word. B word bosses, all right B word bosses and really boring jobs or really boring bits of jobs Can you look me in the eye and tell them tell me that Michelle Obama is right and those individuals and those experiences are actually good for you. Now hit the numbers now you will get through. All I mean, listen, it's going to involve you sharing your story as well, a bit like A bit like I've just shared mine, but I am really interested in the psychology of it because Michelle Obama is closer to my age then most of my colleagues and I don't think that they would recognize this. I don't think they would believe that they had to put up with it and B, I don't think that they would think it was character forming. And they might be wrong. and this is where I'm still a little bit. like the boy defending corporal punishment. There's still a little bit of me that thinks, well, because it happened to me, it can't be that bad. And I think perhaps that's what Michelle Obama is doing It didn't do me any harm, Well, it probably did. but not necessarily. So the B word boss And the really boring bit of your job. and you Look me in the eye and tell me that that has actually made you more resilient and therefore a better person, a better professional, a better parent, a better partner then you are now zero three four five six zero sixzer nine seven three is the number you need. It's Friday It's a slightly softer topic than the rest of the week. It's your best chance since ten o'clock on Monday morning of getting through to the program. So whatever you do, don't waste it. And or is Michelle Obama actually doing something quite dangerous? and something quiet unhelpful and something quite ignorant when it comes to the social change that has removed bullying from the workplace and equipped young people with standards and expectations that their parents were not lucky enough to have This is LBC With Vauxall Proud partner of TeamGB I love you when this happens. Satnam Sangira, who's joining us shortly to talk about his new book about George Michael has written about these comments that Michelle Obama made recently the idea that every experience, the bad boss, the job you thought you weren't appreciated, the one that did theyre all character forming. they all help you to be resilient. u And Satam's story, I'll let him tell you himself actually when he gets here. But is she right or is she possibly horribly wrong Danel's Mill, Daniel What do youckomm I worked for a company for twelve years and after twelve years various reasons, I was called over to France to be screamed at in French Speaking some French but not a lot. Most of my meetings were conducted in English. It was a French company was? It wasn't just an eccentric boss. No French company, headad office in France but I ran the the UK offically. O. Yes. And I was told, you have some French. I' now going to scream at you excuse me in French and the experience was not dissimilar to your spitle story inded up quitting six weeks later and solely as a result of that relatively terrifying experience in that was twelve years ago to then set up my own company, and which I've been doing the same thing for the last twelve years working for myself and it was the best thing that ever happened to me. Okay. And I do look back saying, if that hadn't happened to me, I probably would be running my own business But that's not character for I mean, that's like that's like forcing you out of the door But it gave me the strength to That's not what she means. It didn't give you the strength I look back at it as a character forming experience. I look at it and I know it's your life and I'm arguing with you about what happened in it, which is a little bit rich, but I look at it as a resolve forming experience, not a character forming experience I think I don't think I know the difference between charac forming and resolve forming because I think resol resilience resolution But it wasn't resilient. you ran away Yeah, I haven't considered it. But without it, I wouldn't be better off Yeah. I mean, measurably better off. It's a tr' a's b to you. Have you ever shouted and I'll be able to tell if you're lying, I've got technology in the studio. Have you ever shouted at any of your employees At the time I had fourteen people reporting to me. and if you want to talk about character for me, I've worked for myself for twelve years and decided you'd never hire anybody else. Oh o. yeah that's one. I mean that could have been part of my decision, just this whole not wanting to be responsible for you know I feel that when fourteen people reported to me, everyone makes mistakes, but I' never screamed to anybody Yeah, it can be like And there's no need to. It doesn't. mean I just the thing I can't remember, Daniel, is whether or not I ended that monstering in the newspaper office by doubling my efforts to get some stories for the next day because if I did There's a case for arguing that his tactics work And I don't know how long after that you ended up on the path to where you are today But there is going going back to the topic that you're addressing, there is no excuse to scream at somebody. There is no ex to motivate them to lift them up, to really make them feel bad to make them feel embarrassed, but screaming in front of anyone in a large group of people is traumatic. trauma and trauma is no good for You'd alost rather be hunched I mean, I don't want to turn it into a top Trumps of trauma, but I mean At least then halft no because I've never been punched. but I think trauma doesn't do anyone any good at any time, whether it's a parent, screaming at a child, whether it's a bs screaming at agree with I mean, to be fair to Missade Obama, she isn't saying that being screamed at is good. but when she talks about an awful boss, the first thing most of us will think of is the thing you thought of and the thing that I thought of. Yes. I mean, it immediately came to my mind. and I still look back at it with a moderate degree of horror But there is a psychology in life or whatever the word I'm looking for is which is try and be grateful for something negative. You could almost be grateful for. life gives you lemons, makeake lemoncello, that kind of. Yeah, be grateful for the I think the terrible thing There's one thing we're missing actually and that would be and I have got a horrible feeling that I suffered a little bit from this That would be that you then think that's how you treat people I think I think you'd have to be completely emotionally un self underaware to go through a traumatic orr you just went to revisit, because that's what book Well, you just went to public school Well bit both Which might be the same thing that you think, well that happened to me, therefore it should happen to them. So it's why bullying is hereditary in public schools. It's why lots of things in the ruling classes are appallingly toxic for everybody involved, but they hand them down from generation to generation to generation, arguably including sending your children away to boarding school when they're seven or ten years old and not long ago knowing that they'll be beaten didn't do me any harm. So you get screamed out a lot And I think I was like this probably until my very early thirties That's how you run an office. if that when you have a team, that's how you That's I can't remember whether I went from being screamed at to go and scream at my juniors, but I cannot hand on her. I've never screamed at you, have I Keith Be honest now, no banter. No no, I've never screamed at Keith But if that's all you know, I can't say with my hand on my heart that I didn't then go and scream at the people that were on my team who hadn't given me any stories because I was getting screamed at by the black What? That wasn't character forming. that was just like a cycle of trauma. Jane's in Camden. Jane, what would you like to say ains yeah So I've worked for plenty of horrible bosses. and I think when I first came out of Uni, that was probably my most harrowing experience So I certainly wouldn't emulate any of their behavior at all Was it character foring for you though Oh God no. No. Are you sure you're not more resilient today because of their awfulness I think it taught me what I will and will not put up with, but I think that that's something that you acquire with age. So I think it sets those boundaries and certainly has my opinions when I'm applying for jobs now you, it's really hard because when you do apply for a job It's not like you can Well you have a six month probation, but you can't really try out the boss and think, is this somebody that I really want to take that leada safe and go and work for us. So But anyway, I'm getting off topic That's can I do it all the time can just I I can just say as a boss now myself There was one boss that I did work for, which I L you think you know, they are a terrible boss But looking back now and being in my position, I do think to myself, a lot of people do look at their bosses and go, well, I could do that job so much better than them. And actuallys When you get it, you really can, you really can. good look back and you go, actually I kind of see now how difficult it is. becausecause the bug stops with you. You know, if anything goes wrong, the buke stops for you. Won't somebody think of the bosses is what you're saying, Jay. But I know that you're saying it from a position of sincerity and you're right, of course, it is a lot harder than it looks and you're under more stress and pressure. So the bloke that shouted at me was under more stress and pressure From a butatch, I'm not sure he was under that particular editor, but he could have been under more stress and pressure theight than he was putting me under. And it's easy to forget that Very easy to forget that. What about boring bits? Do you think doing really, really boring things is good for you? Ellot who's producing the show today just nodded enthusiastically. I don't know what we're supposed to make of that Y This is good for you, Is Elliot? this shift. Okaykay. When's that and all back, Keith? Carry on, Jon. I think that elements that are boring, you know they're just part of the job. And actually that does relate to another point I was going to make that again, in my position as both I am seeing, you know the gem that are coming through and actually that resilience, Michellea Bonnet is right. There is something missing And also you don't get from screaming No, that's true. and a belielly I'm just talking over you even more than I would normally because the phone line went a bit glitchy and I hate that. But But the other thing as Satnam writes about this in the Times today is that I do find young people want to start off at the top. You know, there is a slight danger of thinking you turn up somewhere and you'll be doing the really cool stuff on day one, whereas Most people have to spend some time in the shallow end and the foothills of careers before getting to the juicy bits. but that I don't know, mayaybe we would like that as well. We just it it was harder to challenge becausecause you couldn't look at social media then and think, well why aren't I massive already? There's an eleven year old here who's got a million followers. Here's Matgh he's not the eleven year old with a million followers. He's got your headlines. It's a K Star This is LBC with Voxall Energizing a Bter Britain Telve thirty four is the time. It' one of those quirks of schedules that Satam Sangera joins us to talk about his frankly sensational new book on the Day that Or the day after, an article he wrote was published in the Times reflecting on the topic that we're actually in the middle of discussing. So we'll begin with that. Did dressing up as the newews bunny at live TV help form the character that we see before us today Yeah, well, it showed that I was willing to do anything. for munnoney. controlled by my enemies on social media for having been the news bunny. But it's like it was my only way into the media. Why are they trolling you? Because you know, it's pathetic. Oh, I see. You know and humiliating. you could have contributed to the first hour of the programme when we were asking whether or not the government and members public figures should now start coming off Twitter entirely because the place has become so toxic, but I won't badge you with questions about the thing you haven't come here to. We shouldn't come over here Do you think so? We all should. you. I've reduced my social media by ninety percent. And what impact has it had on your mental health? You know the answer to this? Of course I do. I don't to hear I'm ninety percent happier. Yes. There you go. I I want to hear you say in your broad black country accent, which was too broad I read to contemplate a career as a broadcaster. Okay, so tonight the music seems so loud, The meaning of George Michael Um It's beautiful. It's almost impossible for me to describe What it is Is that fair? Because it's very nice of you. I know you're a Wam fan. Apparently there's photographic evidence of you with a buffant And highlights. I never imagined this? I never had highlights, but I may have had a white denim jacket and white Benim Chrousers with the elasticated And cool And Gay leather pixie boots. Look, there were different times. It was much old mel face.ood. Anyway, you put it into your words. What is it? I mean, it did go Well I had a go actually. I remind myself, fromom the back of the book, I had a go at describing it. It's part biography, part social commentary and part love letter. It somehow does full justice to the magnificent man it examines. So where did the idea come from oy Yeah I mean, George Mark is still one of the most popular artists of our age Ped art is still on a load of and British radio stations highest set rate in the history of the Billboard hit one hundred But there's been no real commemoration, no tribute concert You can't leave flowers at his grave. And this are like thousands of books about Dylan Printince, the Beatles. And nothing serious about This amazing man And you know, it's the tenth anniversary of his death this year And I just thought, you know what Take a break from colonialism and celebrate this brilliant man who did lots of good for the world. Why did he mean so much to you Well, initially, I got into him around nineteen ninety around Listen withithout prerejudice and I think it was just that Johnny come lately. My sisters were into one. Right I think it was just that He had feelings and he could sing very sensitively about his feelings. And the men around me the match open joby men. I didn't really have any feelings. And I think that's what drew me towards him and a vulnerability as well, which goes hand in hand with what you've just described Why do you think there weren' Well there hasn't been a canon of work about someone so huge yet? Barely any new music. think party because Some of these music seems disposable Pop mic isn't it? And you can't reanalyze it, some people think But also his state, I think is run by family and friends, and I think they're traumatized by the way he died.. and it's takes them a long time to really Agin the process But it's beginning Yes, and I mean, to be brutal, no one's cashing in on that legacy or I mean, there's a difference, I don't mean cashing in. There's plenty of stuff that's done posthumously that is s wonderful and good, but as you say, too traumatized to even think about what they might do to maintain the legacy. So up pop you Yeah with tonight, the music seems so loud Just run through those three things that I just described because it's a bit about you, it's a bit about our society. It's mostly about George Michael, and it is a love letter as well. Yeah Beyond his amazing music I mean he was just incredible secret philanthropist came out in a way that still inspires people today. and I think punctured the purance of the tablrooids when it came to outing people But also just the music man. Yeah I really survived. like no Friday night disco, no wedding disco is complete without wham And you know last Christmas becomes more and more successful by the year. Careless whispers a meme on social media. You can't deny the brilliance of the music. twentyenty five million copies of faith. I mean these are unthinkable numbers for Yeah young people today. I mean Spotify streams don't hit those sort of numbers and you don't have to pay individually for those. It just epic, immense, mammoth and international. a kind of British superstar on the scale of Taylor Swift In nineteen eighty nine, I think he was as big as Michael Jackson friends Madonna, but also very unusual in that he walked away from it Yeah he hated it And and he had They had a really tough final eriod, didn't it? I means one of the most extraary I mean, it's a very sad book, obviously as well, because you're talking about someone we love that died, but the failure to notice how much trouble he was in Yeah, I think that was partly because he was always so articulate Yeah in front of a camera And also he was funny You always had a funny remark and it got over so many other crises. I think we just assumed He'd get over these final crisis. Yeah. And so we thought he'll be fine, but being found off his box at the wheel of his car, not once or twice, but on about half a dozen different occasions. It's weird that we felt it was surprising because, you know, he went to prison. Yes, of course. You know, he got caught with crack and GHB I mean, if someone in your life had gone through that, you wouldn't be that surprised. Do you forget that he's dead Do you have those moments? I do, where you sort of just, o my days, how could that have happened? Yeah B of her glad he hasn't seen What's happened to the world? Because they were so engaged in politics. And he was one of the first to speak out about the Iraq warar. People forget but he broke up wham around because of apartheid.es because his management got involved with the South African business And so he would have had per a minor strike benefit a strike, member the Communist Partyizarly? Yes, briefly. I mean it would, of course So yeah, like Which modern pop star is that bold in their political opinions? I can't think of anyone right. What did you discover about him that you didn't know already that was most notable I think it was the secret philanthropy The extent of it, like we're still finding out stories, like giving away All of the British royalists his best off and then insisting that no one knew, giving away the entire first year's royalties to last Christmas He was already just starting out. I think there was about a three million quid. And He was routinely generous And yeah, incredible, but also lots of pop facts like he almost did a duet with Mara Jackson No role does Andrew Richally play in the book? Andrew has got a kicking over the years. You often hear people say, Oh do you know that you know George was so generous to Andrew that he gave him a writing credit on carelessness. but it's not true. Andrew did actually write The guitar line, on Kis Whisperat and co wrote Club Tropicon and a couple of other wham tracks And you watched that video, the Netflix film that came out a couple of years ago, you realizeed that I mean, without Wam, there would have been no George Michael and without Andrew Ridgeley, there would have been no Wam. I think that began to set the record I'm such an anoraxat. began to set the record a little bit straighter, but go down the road of trying to sort of squeeze his role or No, no, I wouldn't have happened with Andrew. And also he did a remarkable thing as a young, ambitious young man He saw that George had this talent And he more or less stepped aside. Yeah. He now regrets that he wishes he hadn't retired at the age of twenty one that he'd said to George let's carry on co writing songs. But almost every band splits up at that point But he did and he just what an incredible thing to do for your friend. It is. Tell me why someone who is not a massive George Michael fan would enjoy this book But it says a lot about the times we through, I guess you know, I am a historian So The social history, the cruelty of the eighties and ninetiesies. I mean when he came out, the headlines alone were just beyond brutal. Again, I've been talking a lot today about the differences between my generation and some of my younger colleagues. They would struggle to believe the way he was written about and talked about at the time And people go, o, it was obvious he was gay. and why didn't he come out? Well Almost everyone we now know was gay wasn't really out in the eighties. so Alton John wasarried. Kenny Everet was married. Fredy Murcury had a girlfriend Boy George until the mid eighties were saying his bye. Mark Almond was in an out initially Yes. That was because the press made it impossible to be gay and in the entertainment industry. What was it and you may not know the answer to this, but it's a gap in my aneractness. Was it fear of his father or his mother knowing he was gay that kept him in the closet for? I think primarily it was his mother because there' such an association then Yeah between gay being gay and AIDS. Right. And he knew she would worry But his father, when he was a child was homophobic. Yes, that's yes,. I know he was a Greek Cypriot machu bloke. Resturateur Yeah. And work, George worked in the restaurant, but not very successfully. No, got fired by his own dad. And Yog, I see, another thing that I shouldn't tell you is that I had the word yog picked out on my white denim jacket in little metal studs. Oh dide. I thought you' say you had a tattoo. No, I wouldn't I mean I don't think my parents would have let me have a tattoo, but that was the name that Andrew knew him by, orr atast Andrew's version of what he thought his parents call. parents And Andrew thought that they were calling him Yoga when he went round to visit. So that's what he started calling. I'm going to cry Yeah. And another thing about Andrew is that, you know, he was quite dark skinned Yeah And he was called the P worord Y school. Yes. And George's experience was Egyptian heritage, I think. Yeah, Jewish Egyptian Yeah And their experience was quite similar to that of being brown in the se as the natives. As I said, it's impossible. I mean, I've done a decent job on the back cover actually, but it's almost impossible to encapsulate. What this book is because I't can you think anything like it? Where would you whereere would you put it next to on the shel I don't know. I really liked Craig Brand's one two, three, four about the Beatles. Yes, o. And that's kind of social history, but also about the Beatles. Yeah, very much so. There is stuff you will learn, even if you thought you knew everything about them, there's stuff that will make you laugh, there's stuff that will make you cry. And most of all, there is stuff that will make you fully if and even more fully appreciate. What an extraordinary talent George Michael, I hate saying was, but he was Yeah. Do know? It's a shame you don't play music on this show. If we got didid you get anything ready earlier Too busy being bored, probably, were you? No could have put in a little bit of what would you play now? What would be I mean Cless whispering If you've got something to give earlier this week I got six music to play Cowboys and Angel. all seven minutes of it. And you know what the audience loved it I bet they did. Of course you couldd play anything. I mean, I'd go earlier L I think there's signs on Everything she wants of where he would go later. I think that was more of a George Michael track than a wham track actually. And you know he played everything on that Yeah. play all the instruments, all the vocals. I do now. I know that. Yeah. And I know thanks to you that he had twelve saxophonists before he was happy with the solo on Kless with and couldn't play the saxophone himself.ay Because he would have done. I'm surprised he didn't learn. I mean, to be end, one worries about whether or not the line between perfectionism and smoking too much weed was hard to plot at times. Yeah. because that's like the Stone Rosose' second album. Reportedly, the amount of drugs that were being taken made it pretty hard for them to agree about anything or be finally happy with something. Yeah. I think it sted him down's why it took him six months to record Fast Lve. Yeah. He was a stoned We will not see his like again. Satam, thank you. Do you know what you're doing next notot a book about the British Empire Definitely not. Definitely not. But I mean, it must be really embarrassing for you how little resonance those last books that you wrote. I know. it's almost like no one in politics listens. Yeah. and it doesn't impact on anything or I'm not going to ask you about the recent news because that's not why you're here Thatsamenara. Tonight the music seems so loud the meaning of George Michael is out now. and it is, as I say, a thing of absolute beauty. It's twelve forty seven This is LBC With Vauxall Proud partner of TeamGB Tenter one is the time. bad bosses and boring jobs more in a moment. But first I just want to share something with you I failed to find this anywhere in the national media. I found it on the regional parts of some national media, but it was I mean breathtaking to me that this story appeared this week. It's the story of a student. beinging murdered in Britain by a twenty two year old man being stabbed to death and the culprit was jailed for life this week and the culprit's father has also been jailed for two years pleading guilty to assisting an offender. to concealing high visibility clothing that his son had been wearing at the time of the attack. and I saw this because One of the Daily Mails columnists writes this morning about how hiding her son's bloodied murder weapon in the family home isn't what any mother would do, and that appears on the front page And the murder of this foror U Chat Mohammed Allgusim did not involve any perceived or actual police mistakes But he's brown and his killer was white. and his killer's father, as I say, has already been jailed for helping an offender after the attack and I'm fairly confident. that the and the attacker was carrying a kitchen knife for protection because he said he had been attacked in the past He approached them randomly in the street, apparently to ask for a lighter and then having been taking cocaine all night, had a sort of paranoid delusion that he'd abused and turned back to stab this entirely innocent young man. I'm fairly confident that you didn't know anything at all about that story And I'm not necessarily suggesting that you should, and I'm not drawing any parallels beyond age with Henry Novak's murder because what is so hideous about that is the footage of the police officers briefly disbelieving him and handcuffing him when he was the one in agony, but but it just struck me as 's almost uncanny that another story this time about a brown man being murdered by a white man and aided the white man being aided by his parent in the hopes of evading justice would have arrived and been sentenced in the same week and and almost and go almost entirely unnoticed It is twelve fifty two. AQuick call from Ashley on the question of bosses and boringness. What do you want to say, Ashley How you, James First on C is a little bit nervous me. But just wanted to say I think You know, we've bad bosses and kind of boring jobs. I don't think there's any such thing as like a bad job or a boring job. Oh one of those Yeah, I think you, people don't leave jobs, they leave people. You know, if yourre manager is always micromanager and kind of sucking the life out of your ability to enjoy your job, then you know, you're not going to get the best out your people And, you know, some people we with all people, we all have issues at home when kind of financial issues or family issues or it might be You know, the old like saying like leaveold out of the door. It doesn't work. like people still come to work. It's still in the back of their mind. They're still not going to be, you know, given one hundred percent And if you' a manager then calls you into the office and underrates you for not giving a hundred percent because you've got stuff going on at home That's not going to inspire any loyalty to stay or the willingness to do better tomorrow. What about terror? What about being frightened into being better That doesn't work. It might in the short term, you know. I mean because I probably would have argued once that it works on me. I work better when I'm frightened. I don't, by the way, but I used to believe that I did I don't think it works in the long term. I think you know, short term, you might get like, you know, a short sort shock into kind of getting a couple of things doing or meeting whatever targets, but actually if it's long term , you know, if if you' kind of management style is terror and kind of scaring people into getting stuff done what happened? if you're a business who kind of You know, you need a new product, for example, or you need know a new service available for people and you want manag to shutch it in because it's a bad idea and makes you feel scared of comeing with new ideas you're not going to come up with new ideas And it's not character forming to be on the receiving end of that in any way, shape or form believeure resilience. I mean, you become tougher. maybe it's not something you should want to be tougher in that way. Now I mean there's kind of an idea that resilience, you can't really train resilience and all that sort of thing. I mean The US Army spent billions trying to train resilience into their troops and it didn't work. Really? It failed What actually helps resilience is knowing that you've got people around you who support you and you can lean on social connections and all those sorts of things that builds resilience If you're in an environment where all that is kind of shut down and there's just fear and all sorts of things You know the first time you get a problem, you're not going to want to talk to your boss and say there's an issue here and they need to get it solved. You're going to think, oh Godd You know I' grow have I'll grow have that chat and it's going to be this setting of it And there's lots of research that shows actually bad managers have a really negative impact on people's wellbeing So you know, if you think of about like workplace stress and anxiety issues and all sorts of things, a lot of that comes from managers And they're actually making things worse. So I suppose the only person who's made an even vaguely plausible case for this being a good thing is the Bloku was so unhappy with the way he was being treated by his boss that he went off and started his own business. And I don't know if that's quite what Michelle Obama was talking about. Funny. I think it's hugely generational this. and I think that If you were raised in that environment, it's quite hard to let go of the idea that it was awful because That would somehow involve You know, I know it's very popular to pretend you're a victim these days, but you actually were a victim, and that's a different proposition entirely. Thank you, Ashley. Time for full disclosure, which is with for my money, she is one of the most brilliant and original talents in the country But because this is a country where the word ventriloquist conjures up images of Nookie Bear and Ovil the Duck, She doesn't get anything like in my view, I hope she doesn't mind me saying this, the credit or the recognition that she deserves. Up to and including for her film, which we talk about in full disclosure as well. I'm talking if you haven't worked it out already about Nina Conti, who is a genius And if you don't know that, then you'll spend five minutes on YouTube having listened to this and then an hour listening to full disisclosure. and you'll appreciate fully and completely that she is a genius. But I wondered when I met how it started how a young actor not particularly making inroads or enjoying herself fell under the influence of Ken Campbell, an incredibly visionary Uh, um, theatre maker who became her partner and how she ended up on the path towards ventriloquism of all things. So what happened? He came back from Kentucky with a puppet or when did you first insert your hand into a puppet? How did that come about Well, I did a few times in groups with him. He was holding sort of workshops And I had a troubled relationship with him because I couldn't do everything he wanted because it was too extreme And I to pray a bit and that made him angry and it was a bit tough But I didn't want to ever have an enemy in him. you know, so I kept in touch a bit and I went to these ventrilicous workshops. I thought they were really stupid. and I didn't like it. And then so but then I went to the Royal Shakespeare Company and I was doing a very normal job and I didn't have big parts, I had small parts and I really kind of missed him and I thought, however weird it is, I would rather that. So I sort of opened the door to him again. And then he asked me, whilst you're doing this and cutting your teeth in the acting world or I would like to write a book about acting. I always have And if you could send me questions about acting that will inspire chapters and he provided me with postcards with his address on them And I had an unsuccessful voice coaching lesson with Cis Berry, who's very louded voice coach who said, you know there are voices some I can listen to and the others I just shut off. and you've got to make yours one I can listen to Okay quite tough. So I quoted that on this postcard and said what do I do? And this book suddenly didn't exist anymore He had the invitation to make me a ventriloquist. and he went at it wholeheartedly And at the stage door at the Swan Theatre, there' suddenly the big fluffy dog and a teach yourself ventriloquism kit which is bought in Kentucky, which was thirty booklets of how to learn ventriloquism. and it came with a sort of a lolly stick to hold your tongue down and a little mirror and I mean And he said, this is the answer to your question You will become a vocal acrobat. There will be nothing that you can do. you'll be doing all the things she can't teach you and you will know everything about the voys and this is what you have to do. The film is called Sunlight. The interview series is called Full Dclosure. The guest is called Nina Coni. He will enjoy all three of them. Also a quick shout to Kaate and James who were on Mysteria A week and a half ago celebrating their marriage. and I said I'd give their company a mention. I think I forgot, someome like it hot