Professional Hockey and Future Outlook

Welcome to the Judge Joh Hodchman podcast. I am Baleiff Jesse Thorne, joined in person in downtown Los Angeles at MaxFun headadquarters by Judge John Hodchman. Hello, Judge Hodchman. Hello, Baailiff Jesse Thorne, Bailiff, my baleiff. Yes, I am very thrilled to be here in person in robes in because I could have worn something a little nicer down below. I forgot that sometimes you see below my knees here when I'm in studio. They're very puffy shoes. Yeah. I was just here for the Max Fun Drive finale and we have a wonderful guest that we're about to introduce. I didn't want to go home without meeting our wonderful guest. and summer is right around the corner, Jessie, and before I disappear into the coastal woods of Maine U I was thinking, what what do we like to do during the summer? I know books a lot of people like to read Romance novels. I thought you were going to say a lot of people like to go outdoors, but not us No, no, no,, no no. No no. Too many tick borne illnesses to go outdoors. stay inside Read a romance novel now I am I am no stranger when it comes to novels But I am a stranger when it comes to romance. Don't know anything about it. So I'm very grateful that we have an expert in both. Fields, the combination of romance novels, a wonderful writer Why don't you introduce our guest, Jessseie? We are so excited to introduce to the court a New York Times bestselling writer known for her hockey romance novels She wrote the game changer series, which has been adapted for the hit TV series, Heated rivalry Rachel Reed, welcome to Judge John Hodman. We're thrilled to have you here. I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you. I'm very excited. Thank you for wearing that elegant business attire as well. Thank you Yes, I'm glad I'm wearing my robes because I have to be wearing the exact same thing underneath. It would have been embarrassing. Yeah Rachel, you've written the game Changers series For those who haven't read your books or watched the show, can you tell our listeners and viewers a little bit about Yeah. So the Game Changer series is a series of at the moment, six books soon to be seven. All hockey romance, all romance between two men And it is a series, though it focuses on different couples, but the second book in the series is Heated rivalry and it was adapted into the first season of the television show, along with the first book, Game Changer U they kind of make up, yeah, the first season and the second season will be filming soon. Super cool. What is the mix of thrilled, overwhelmed and terrified you are that your books went from veryer successful best selling books. to Intense cultural phenomenon where the other day guest on Jordan Jessse Go told me she was doing a heated rivalries themed stand upp show and had sold out a theater Um Yeah, every day feels every day something happens that I can't believe is real and that feeleing has not gone away for even one minute. It's very overwhelming. So I'm going to say it's mostly overwhelming. It's definitely a little bit terrifying, but Overall mostly thrilling for sure. it's really been amazing. Well, rest assured that none of this is real. This is not a real court. And in fact, we don't have any tape in the tape recorder. these cameras are full of moths..'ll be relaxing. Yeah In a normal show, we do record it on tape in a tape recorder. We want to make that clear. It's all analog here. We like the warmth of the sound. Now, you know, I used to work in book publishing in the nineties whereere we represented a lot of what you call commercial fiction, genre fiction. Romance was a big part we published and at that time, it felt a lot more I mean, among snooty literary types, a lot more marginal than it is now, romance is a genre is really flourishing. There are many, many different sub genres and different styles and flavors In fact, Rachel, there is a bookstore in my neighborhood of Brooklyn. called The Ripped Bodice, which is dedicated only to romance novels And it's one of the most popular bookstores in town What's it been like to be working in the genre? and also how much gay hockey romance fiction is there aside from your work There's a lot of hockey romance. That is a massive sub genenre of romance. It really took off during the pandemic. Like's already kind of popular. Romance in general really took off during the pandemic and I think also during like the ebook explosion, which was sort of at the same time. I think because made a lot easier to hide what you're reading. I really do think that that's why we have things like monster romance, like all of these things that were pretty niche before are now pretty mainstream U And so there is there is a decent amount of queer hockey romance, but not nearly as much as like romance between a man and a woman, usually a male hockey player. and a woman, but still I keep waiting for the hockey romance bubble to burst, but it never seems to do that. It just keeps going and I think I got kind of got in near the ground floor. Is hockey the most romantic of sports? No. o. I don't know why like is there is there equivalent is there an equivalent amount of curling romance novels? No, I think I think I've seen at least one though Yeah. every get get in the ground floor of that. I was trying to think of like, what is the special element of hockey? Yeah that makes it And all I could come up with was that a hockey player tends to have a human body, but with a powerful butt Yeah. It's hidden though, by the hockey pants, typically. So it's like it's like a secret reveal. But I do think a big part of it is a lot of people don't know anything about hockey. So it's like basically like science fiction. It's like they don't nitpick the details because they don't know. they don't care. Like it's just like it could be a made up sport for all they care And I think it also just seems it seems like made up because it's on ice because it like has all these weird skills that you need to have on top of playing the game. It's also very violent. Yeah, it's physical and intense and ye And also really wildly graceful. I don't want to brag, but I've been to a hockey game I went okay. They went I want what to the Pittsburgh Penguins face off against the B lightning strikes, lightightning team. Yeah. and As is always the case when I ever go to any sporting event, if I am there, the team that I want to win loses I am a walking Breathing curse So I don't go to sports anymore. But one of the things that struck me was It's a it's a I don't want to it's an intense physical game that is that is also extremely graceful. Like there's a lot of backward skating that I never thought I was going to see. Yeah. sometometimes I'll just watch their feet and not focus on anything else and it's like you're watching something else entirely Now, have you, you know, the only sport that I do follow somewhat closely is extinct hockey So the Hartford Walers, the Quebec Nordeeques. Th these are my favorite teams because all of the outcomes are preordained. so I don't have to feel anxious and they're all kind of tragedies in some ways Have you considered writing an extinct hockey romance novel I'd like to commission you personally spepecifically about the whalers Well I don't want tona say yes, but yes. Yeah. The whalers specific. And not like The whalers have moved to Carolina, but we're ignoring that. want I'm gonna want to hear correct. We're ignoring that. Yeah. I'm gonna want to read one about the San Francisco Spiders, the minor leagueockey team that played in the cow palace when I was a teenager. I actually think minor Lague hockey is a great I'll use the word arena for romance. I want to lot the cow palace not a great arena. No Really ratty arena. Well one of the things about hockey that I do know and you mentioned with Minor League two, like why why would you say Minor Leagueockey is a great arena for romance. I think the notot say anything mean about people playing it, but the desperation of trying to hold on to that career Yeah is there. There's no money. It's you're still sacrificing your body It's still violent Still probably are holding on to that dream of making the big leagues I mean, there's a lot there. I mean, that's that's kind of romantic Yeah in a way that being a superstar NBA player It's there's not that sense of yearning, I guess, necessarily. And even in professional hockey, like it's it's Not easy to make a living even in major Lags. No, most most of I mean, they get paid notot that they're paid badly, but they're paid a lot less than the other comp major leagues. Yeah. and then That would be like the superstars. There's a lot of players that aren't making tons of money doing it. And they only get to play for you maybe ten to, fifteen years, most of them You them what and then their bodies are broken. so They got to save that money.'ve got they've got to find something that will carry them through as whole human beings That could be love, perhaps. could be You have a book coming out in twenty twenty seven. Yeah, it'll be book seven in the Game Changer series. It is the third Ilian Shane book, who are the protagonists of the Heat of riivalry S show. And, um Yeah, I guess that's about all I can say about it at this point, but It will be coming out june first June first of next year Yeah Well, I'm sure everyone will be very excited to read it and probably they'll find out where they can get it out. Do you you have a website, I presume? I do have a website. It's being overhauled right now, but Th we will not be there. So right now it's just that animated gift of the guy with jackhammer. It' actually It's Stano cities Yeah. Well, Rachel Reid, thank you so much for being here. Our listeners have a lot of questions and romance hockey disputes, hot takes, controversial opinions run by you, so maybe we should open up the docket and get into it. We've got something here from Instagram user Ga. Gaar A G U A T A R G. I saw somebody with a custom license plate yesterday that said, I am C R Y N G It's only since last year, honestly that you're not allowed to put swear words on maine license plates. Wow. You may have seen that up in the maritime. someome main people coming up into Canada with some bad word license plates? No, I haven't yet. Yeah dirty word. forward to it though. Anytime I pull into the Hannafords, I'm always lucky when I get to park next to the person who's got a license plate says cancer It's like, yeah. Yeah. let's go back to Guard Tug. which is the better trope? friends to lovers or enemies to lovers I think friends to lovers is way better. Well, all right, then that's settled. I know Friends to lovers is a pretty well established sort of romance novel plotline Um And I think in life too. Itt pretty normal romance plot in life. And enemies to lovers is maybe I don't know how often we fall in love with our enemies. I mean, Jesse and I.. Yes, of course. But my wife and I were the bititterest enemies before we got Yeah, That's talk about. He's a rivalry. Yeah I was hired to kill my husband. I do it No, that's cute. That's why I like enemies to lovers because it is more Fantastical. I mean, it's just more fun. Um I don't know, alsoso just yeah, way better payoff. I mean, Friends to Lver is nice, but it is very familiar But enemies you have to like I really come up with a pretty wild reason why their enemies and then resolve it. It's a challenge. What is the most specific lane of romance that as was speaking as someone who became the world's most successful author on the on the back of same sex hockey romance What is the most specific type of romance that you personally have enjoyed? Oh wow Um, that I've enjoyed. I've definitely tried a few things. I say this to somebody who recently read for our show Reading Smut I recently read a book. It was called a reverse Harrem novel Um and and it was, but it was among shifting mermen and mermaids. And also the Mermen were in a biker gang Yeah, was very violent also. extxtreme lots of biker gang violence That is a lot. I've definitely read books like that. I've read I know I've read one that was like a merman who got impregnated by a dragon shifter? Yes. Now we're talking. Lid as eggs And, you know, it wasn't for me, but I'm glad it's for someone I mean its I feel embarrassed that I'm not as familiar with mermaan reproductive biology as I should be, but is it like seahorses? Yeah It's like seaahorses There's egg s. Traditional male presenting merman carry the eggs interest. That's fun I think it speaks to books though. like the more the more I say this without value judgment, absurd edges of fantasy romance speaks to the power of books because in a book, that can feel exciting and tangible and real in a way that if you were looking at a moving picture of it, you might only be able to roll your eyes. whereereas you can engage in the kind of feelings that something like a merman getting impregnated in gender without just being silly because it' it lives in a slightly abstracted imaginary world because it's words on a page. Yeah, I don't think I'd w to watch a Merman lay a dragon's eggs, but We did. Yeah, we just got a hundred letters So you say enemies to lovers. I say enemies to lovers. ye. What do you say, Judge Hodgman What's the question again? Friends Merman. Friends, de lovers or enemies you'reinking about that reverse harem, you're gonna join I just call it a harem. Why call it reverse? It's a good point Well, I mean, enemies to lovers is very charged, as I know from the heat of you know, the Game Changers series, you know, from Melia and Shane, that's What I love about their relationship is that, you know, like When you have an enemy, such as it were, even if it's a friendly enemy or a friendly rivalry or Whatever, that's charged already. So that's kind of hot So the it's possible like you might just sort of Wanna hug and kiss? just to get it out of your system. But then it develops into a real relationship I think that's really amazing. Whereas if you're just pals not the same Same charge. Lacks the Frissant Lacks the Fisson. That's exactly right. O these French Canadians or whatever. Yeah All right, we're about to get really real Rachel. Prepare yourself Here's something from Cora in San Francisco Are romance novels harmful? Oh come on., O a I actually gotor, let me hear you out. I think I think Cora is on team. they're not harmful. Okay, good. Some people in my book club say that they give readers unrealistic expectations about love and because they sell so well, they take up space that should be reserved for more serious literary fiction I think romance is a legitimate genre. It speaks to our need for connection Readers can differentiate fiction from reality, while I speak for yourself, I can't Dismissing romance as harmful or lesser than is condescending and it ignores the range and quality within the genre Please order my book club to examine their biases against romance They should consider where those ideas come from, Cough, patriarchy, cough and read a thoughtfully chosen romance novel in good faith Rachel, I'm going to guess where you might fall on this particular dispute, but before we get into that I had understood that and you've said in interviews that you wrote The Game Changers's novels was initially kind of privately Would it be fair to say in secret or no. In secret and definitely because I was a little bit Ashamed? Yeah because there's that stigma around romance. Forgive me for not knowing, but, you know, have you written in other genres? Was this your first into romance per se. This is my first novel right that I wrote, right Yeah. So I'd written like other Mostly nonfiction stuff. But um, Yeah, this was my first novel, but yeah, I was where you essentially came out as a romance Yeah and and practitioner. Yeah. I kind of did feel that way. I told my parents the day before it came out, Game Changer came out. Yeah. and I had to really like S down hear the lrew out of the house. Not only do I read romance. Oh wow. I wrote one Be they're big readers, but're they read smart books. But your books are smart. I know. I was just I mean, let's be fair, there are dumb books in every genre. Oh yes Um and certainly, you know, but romance, I think has it's stigmatized as being somehow lesser or less intellectual or less intelligent or less funny or whatever And it was a real eye opener for me coming to work at Writer's House and reading some of the works that we represented because I came from a I received a degree in literary theory from a acc credited four year college in Southern Connecticut fancy pants school And it was like, oh, this is as smart and engaging as funny as anything I've read. you know, So it was a an eye opener for me. So how did it feel when you were able to be celebrated for doing a thing that you love especially since the show came out, it feels very different because I used to people would ask I wouldn't tell many people I wrote books in my life. And then if they found out They would ask what I wrote and I would say romance usually pretty quickly And they usually didn't have follow up questions after that, but if they did, I would just be like, oh, it's hockey romance. Like I just didn't want to I didn't want to get into it I didn't want to explain it because U I knew that they were going to judge it a bit and Now I can just say I wrote heated rivalry and everybody knows what that is. It's very, very different in the last few months. So that has kind of removed that bit of stress, but U yeah, it was always annoying. I mean, people, you know, I would go to like things like local writers group meetups and The assumption of the other writers there was that I was writing to a template that was sent to me from the publisher or Um Or yeah, that it was just something that was very easy to write when it would take me like you know, a year to write each of these books and it would be quite difficult actually. I mean as someone who is dabbled in writing fiction, not for a long time, but like wrriting passassion is Not easy really hard Um It's it requires an openness. I think vulnerability. Yeah,ight I think it's really annoying that people think that that would be It's a trope, so it's easy. It's like not at all. Yeah ye, that does seem to be the assumption though, but yeah, to me romance is like study. You have to create characters that The reader connects you right away because that's all that there is. All you are doing is rooting for this character to fall in love. So if you don't care about the character immediately There's no there's no book, like you've lost the reader. So it's really important to nail the characters in a romance. Which came first your passion for hockey or your passion for passion? Oh, hockey for sure. I've been a hockey fan since I was a very little kid. Canad You're a Canadian citizen? Yes, I am. and yeah. which was which was your team. the Quebec Montreal Montreal sorry sorry Quebec's rivals. Yeahah. Yeah Yeah. Well, I guess I guess we know who won Yes On if you don't count the fact that they went to Colorado and are currently the best team in the league. I know, but that's what But that doesn't count. That's what makes their story so sad. That's even sadder ye. No, I'm a big Montreal Canadians fan Yeah because boring I don't know. It's very basic if you're a hockey fan It's like the Yankees of, you know, hockey. All right. well, I'm from Boston, so have a great conversation I't sayan was Yes. Mbe you said the word, so now I must And I'm from San Francisco and I believe there's a hockey team in San Jose still There is a sharks. a shark They were going to be called the Blades, but people were worried that that was gang related. That's what something I remember from my childhood. Yeah. It sound that Bladees sounds like a generic tee in a movie. really I meanark other guys well though to be fair. It reminds me of the Toledo Daily newspaper, The Toledo Blade. That's a good point. It's fun when the Jets and the sharks play, though I mean I never thought about that The idea that The idea that it gives someone an unrealistic idea about romance, it's like I don't know, have you ever seen much ado about nothing You know what I mean? W Right. Romance has been around. So Cora and her book group in San Francisco Obviously You know, I I I judge in favor of romantic fiction Are there books that you would recommend to Kora's Group that might a gateway? Well, yeah, that might change their mind or make them feel like garbage for having such a bad opinion That's what I really want for Kora is to humiliate her book group friends who don't like Raming. The one that I usually recommend and have for years is The Hadating Game by Sally Thorne. It has been adapted into a movie as well. It's very popular. It's kind of an enemies to lovers workplace romance and it's just like a good page turner. I mean, It's one of the early ones that I was really into and I think Yeah, if you've never read a romance novel this this might grab you Is there workplace a podcasting network No, That's Linda Holes' novel. Oh, right. I actually, I was about to say, you know, I don't know where the line between a novel about romance and a romance novel is drawn or if that's a meaningful distinction. But I I actually found Linda Holmes' books a friend friend of the court be perfect illustrations of this for like for me, a non romance reader, typically. Right. You know, they live somewhere on the continuum between novel about romance and romance novel. I don't know where the lines are drawn or if they're meaningful, but Evy Drake starts over, which is a baseball romance and that it is about the The romantic interest is a baseball pitcher who has the yips. sureure. And back after this, which is actually set in a podcast office. Oh it is or with a podcast producer. So I can't write my novel that I've No, you still can, maximum. Okay, we're gonna take quick. I already have the license placeate we're going to take a quick break. We'll be back with more with Rachel Reid in just a second Hello, I'm your Judge John Hodgman. The Judge J Chhn Hodman podcast is brought to you every week by You are members, of course Thank you so much for your support This podcast and all of your favorite podcasts at maximumfund. org and they are all your favorites. If you want to join the many member supporters of this podcast and this network Boy, boy, that would be fantastic Just go to maximumfund d. org slash join The Judge John Hodchman podcast is also brought to you this week by Quince Just thorn is hot outside, summer is here and summer calls for pieces that feel lighter and more breathable. 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I don't really like white bread for basically any other purpose but Other stuff, the holes are too big The holes are too big white bread One slice of American cheese and some grated, usually like a sharp cheddar or something, just something with a little more flor. a little bnd I like to butter the outside. You can use mayo as well, but I like the butter because it tastes better And I like to put a little bit of carnneasada seasoning on the outside Well, on the outside I think that's a tremendous grilled cheese hack and I'm going to try it out In fact, I'm going to try make a whole bunch of them when I get up to Maine on my made in carbon steel griddle that I can use not only over couple of burners on my stove, but I can go outside and put it on right on top of my grill or on a campfire For full details, visit madeincookware. com that's mA d E n cookware. com Welcome back to the Judge John Hodgman podcast. I am Bale of Jesse Thorne with me, Judge Joh Hodgman And we're clearing the docket with the legendary writer of the Game Changer series Rachel Reid, Rachel, we're so thrilled to have you here. Okay. hereere is a question not strictly about romance novels, but it is about a dynamic often found in them Jamer giggles on Instagram. Jamer Giggles. J Mur or could J Merr giggles. could be J Murgigles. J Murgigles? J Murgigles. Yeah, Okay. This could they also could be Murgigles That's what happens when a mermaid gets pregnant. The eggseack is inside me. Okay. Is chirping an essential component of a healthy romantic relationship or is it Harmful, chirping, not bird chirping. I think this is like the kind of hockey chirping that Yeah, hockey chirping is like trash talk, right? Yep. Okay But is it but playful Okay. There's some respect there's an underlying respect to it, I think. U, ye, I think it's essential I mean, for me, it's essential for me. Is that a Canadian term chirping? It might be I feel like it's associated with hockey. Yeah. I mean, I don't want to say. I heard it in you hear it in baseball. I think it would more be trash talking in in basketball. Like when Ilia tells Sane, you're boring. chirping. That would be chirping. Yeah Um, and is there chir is there is chirping off the ice Romantic H We all have romantic partners here the three of them.t if I couldn't my husband I don't think it would work out between us. Well, I don't want to blow your spot up, but your husband's in studio down here Could you chirp at him On the spot. No he has to give me a reason. Well, just look at him sing over there. Look at his d. fine He reminded you when he met when he was reintroduced to you today that he met you days after David B we died and I wanted to chirp him in the moment, but I didn't have the heart. What did you want to say? Well, that's just an insane way to expect somebody to remember you. It was very. It was very strange. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just chirping It's my show of affection to you. Do you accept it as such Sorry Mat I was I was quite touched that he remembered meeting me at Sketchfest ten years ago after David Bowie passed away. Yeah. I mean, he was still morening emotion that was an emotionally big night, I recall. Yeah.. so. I'm sorry that I didn't remember The thing is you're boring Yeah' be stping Yeah yeah. But it's affection. I feel d. I'll be honest with you. Why are you're so happy right now We're tearing you lim from l just bully. I just had dinner with our friend and colleague here at Maximum. funun. network I almost said the other thing. Elliot Kalin. And I've told the story many times that Elliot and I used to be colleagues at the Daily S showow and I would chirp him all the time. I would Blly him. And it was like metab bullying, it was bullying and quotation marks because he is a big comic book nerd and I'm a big comic book nerd and I would walk by his desk and takeake a Iron Man mask off his. doesn't go to his mind now, nerd, just walk away with it or like knock his comic books over. and I thought this was really funny and then I Reized that it was going too far Um becausecause I there was a power differential I was an on camera person and Elliot was one of the extremely talented writers without whom on camera people would fail U And he had to like be like, Hha, that's funny And I realized that that was not a fair thing to do. That was bad chirping on my part And I realiz this right after A shoe that I was throwing at him had left my hand U Yeah it was a sneaker to be foreign. It was a soft Sry. And in the apex of it, I'm like, oh, this is b this is bad Uh, and I I since then I've been quite Like, you know, I was just mean to your husband who was only anything but nice to me and now I feel terrible about it. It's almost like the nicer they are, the funner it is though I have to say it is very clear that it is not the same for everyone because occasionally on Judge John Hodgeman, we will have like two best friends or a husband and wife who like to have fun with each other in that way. Yeah. And many, many people will take it as it as those people intended. Right. And I mean, like, look, I grew up with I grew up with, you know a stepmother who's Irish and grew up, you know in a single parent household in Belfast where that's the only mode of communication is mocking oers. right U And so it came very naturally to me. I understood it to be such when that comes up on the show Al get a flood of could they talk to each other this way if they claim to like each other? Right. It's I mean, it's obviously it's contextual And it also has to be consensual to a degree, right? I mean, Obviously, Matt knows that Yeah of him. And our kids also roast him, but they also roast me We have like a whole house of roasting each other lovingly. It's nice. B bunch of Kenny Rogers rooters. Yeah in Canada I know that when I first met Matt the image of him sort of faded away and all I saw was a fully dressed turkey Its built in, I guess to something. It's either because you were roasted it or you had or I was just hungrying Yeah. ye, exactly. U I mean, it's in the context of sports, I get it. Like that's about ritualized confrontation anyway But but I guess I would just say as the as the nominal judge, we have a couple of gavels here so I guess I'll use one I'll just say just be careful when you're chirping off the ice with someone you love. Make sure there's no power differential Make sure that they're into it, Make sure that it's spicy to them in that in the way that it's spicy to you and And I'll just say, Matt, o you owe me one You ow me one chirp So when you think of one, get me, okay can be years I going email you five years from now. V fine. You know what? That'll be great. I would love it. That would be even better. And you can chirp me too, if you would like, Rachel. If something comes up, let me know, I can take it. Okay, we got something here from Sandra. By the way, folks, I can't take it Yeah All right, here is a letter from Anna. I am a romance author with a pen name My books are explicit. But my mother in law insists on reading my books because she wants to support me She has already figured out my pen name. found my author Instagram and told her friends This means there is now a small but determined group of Florida retirees who may already be forming a spicy book club When I learned this, I experienced a full body spiritual evacuation. My mother in law is genuinely the kindest and loveliest human alive but I would like to preserve my ability to make some eye contact with her. What should I do? Now this listener's pen name, full pen name is Anna or Anna, Anna. Sa If you're her mother in law and want to check in on her work Uh, what do you think about that? Do you do you have a person in your life that when you think about their reading your book, you have a full body evacuation? Well, I can definitely relate to this, especially in the early days. you know, after I told my parents that I wrote this very spicy romance novel they read it, which surprised me and not that they're not supportive. I just didn't I thought they wouldn't because, you know, I warned them that it was maybe not for them But they read it and you know, went on to read all of my books. And now my mom is a big fan of the show. I think she watches it basically on repeat We've never watched it together. Um in mind is that sex is not new for your mother in law. It's not new for older women. because there's been a lot of videos on I've seen online of like, I'm showing my grandma heated rivalry and here's her live reaction.s like your gndma knows about this. L this is not going to shock her. Yeah. the assumption that an older woman doesn't know anything about sex. is very wrong. If you have a mother in law, chances are they are a mother. Yes. And so chances are Yeah I think the This you know, romance novels, explicit romance novels have been very popular with older women for a very long time And there's nothing I think you should let it bring you together. I don't think you should make it so you can't look her in the eye. I think you should look her in the eye and and talk about all of your favorite explicit romance books. There you go. Yeah Maybe ask your mother in law for some recommendations. Yeah Yeah look sp see. Mbe maybe theother in law read scruples I feel like looker in the eye give her high five Sruples is based on her . You never know I think that's a great suggestion. Use it as a point of conversation opener. They you're not that different. And I mean, if she liked it, then you have something in common. Trust me at your mother in law's retirement community in Florida Yeah, they're doing it You're talking about doing the deed They're doing the deed Well they are It's happening. full home run Around the horn Wow That's right, Patrick. I don't got a lot of hockey words. I apolog. I'm trying to think' trying to think of icing Is one high sticking? you think they're high sticking at the retirement home? They're high sticking often They're splitting the D Whating everyveryone watching on YouTube is standing up at their desks giving a standing ovation right now. splitting the D Come on, Rachel Reed. Sorry. I love it Let's take a break and then we're gonna get to some romance novel hot takes. Hot and spicy takes We'll be back in just a second on Judge John Hotchman Judge Hodman, we are taking a break from clearing the docket. We just had such a great time at the Dynasty Typewriter in Los Angeles. That's right. Judge John Hodgman, Night Court is our brand new. show it's it's fun. It's woolly, it's wild. It's a little bit different than anything you might have seen at a Judge John Hodgman show before. If you want to come see Judge John Hodgman and Bailiff Jesse Thorne after dark Why don't you come out to the Coolidge corner That's the neighborhood where I grew up in Brookline, Massachusetts. We'll be returning to one of my favorite stages in the world, the Coolidge Corner Theater Just outside of Boston, Massachusetts on Thursday, june eleventh, and we sure do hope that you will join us there, Jesse Thorne. How might they get tickets . lY slash night court brookline, all capapital letters bit. lY slash night court brookline. Or of course you can always just go to maximumfund. org slash events. That's right. And you know what? We got this Night courourt show If you're like a rich guy planning a terrible bot Mitzvah or you need some entertainment on your yacht or something, drop us the line. We're available for bookings. We're available for bookings. Yeah. You know when you think about night court, you think about night life When you think about nightlife, nothing's more synonymous with nightlife than Coolidge Corner Brookline. I believe I believe the bookstore stays open until ten PM now So they got a nice noodle shop. They've got a terrific noodle shop and a great theater. We'll see you there ot le slash night court Brookline, Go get your tickets right now or go to maximumfund. org slash events for everything we have coming up Let's get back to the docket. Hey, Max fun listeners. It's me Jackie Kishation. I have a podcast with Laurie Kil Martin. sayay Hi Laurie. Hi, Jacqueline. Hi Max fun listeners veryy formal. We have a podcast and it's about stand of comedy and how much we love it. And how much we dislike some of it. So listen to that podcast. It's called the Jackie Laurie Show. We drop new episodes every Wednesday that gives us plenty of time to decompress from our comedy weekends and discuss things with sane level heads. No, it doesn't. But if you are a woman our age or a man our age Or you know what? any person of any age, I think you'll enjoy your past. Mackie and Laurie Sh showow on maximumfun. org bye Are you a celebrity Are you searching for meaning, connection, and a little levity these days I'm Camella Nanciiani, actor, writer, and guest celebrity too And I've got four words for you Bullseye with Jesse Thorne. Are you tired of junkets it's sick of the endless spicy snacks you have to eat If you want to connect with someone who gets your work laugh with you a little Join me, Andre three thousand, Tom Higs, Tina Feay, and many more and become a guest on Bullseye with Jesse Thorne from NPR and maximum fun. Welcome back to the Judge John Hodsman podcast. We're joined by Rachel Reed and okay We got some hot takes. Are you ready for some hot takes? I'm ready. Okay. This one is from Enchanted Gate nineteen ninety six on R slash romance books. Oh hot t probablyably a popular subred about romance. I have no problem starting a series midway through. My friends think this is psychotic, but there are usually summaries of previous books to keep the reader on track I don't think there should be pressure to read the other books in a series if it's not for me Hmm. Well, that's interesting because more so than in what we call literary fiction. genre fiction, and again, I'm using these terms because they're terms of art, not that I feel that things should be separated in this way.. you know, romance novels like Rabbit series by John Updpe Well, that's one of the rare ones where literary fiction, is a series that follows a character over Sveral books. It's much more common in Prime fiction, detective fiction romance fiction, sububmarine books, sububmarine fiction. Yeah, shadow submarine. Yeah, space hockey That's got to be something, right And so how do you feel about people picking up something in the middle of the middle of a series. And do you as an author anticipate that to some degree? I do. I write each of the books in the Game Changer series as something that could be read as a standalone. I would say except for the long game, the sixth book, that really is a sequel heat rivalry People have told me they read it first. I don't know how they did that. Um That's the only one I'd say don't read that one first You're gonna get a better reading experience if you read them one through six perfectly fine to read any one of them at any time. And then you can read them all out of order if you want, whatever you feel A lot of people read Heat Rrivalry first, then the long game, then go back. So That's fine. You can do that. I do think reading them in order is better. But I certainly, you know grew up and continue to sometimes just go to the library and grab a romance novel off the shelf. It could be you know, the fourth one in a series. Yeah, but it's the only one that they have at the library that day and especially with A lot of historical romance, that's totally fine. Each one is meant to be a standalone. It's probably about a different you know, sister in the family or something like that. And there's their stories intertwined a little bit. but not enough that that you're missing anything. And I think You know, that's kind of part of the craft of romance writing. If you're writing a series, you have to kind of think like somebody could just pick up this book on its own with no like completely out of context and you have to give them enough context that if things make sense. But not so much that it gets boring. They don't want to hear about the characters from the other books a lot, but Just enough. I think the real question that Enchanted Gate nineteen ninety six doesn't answer here. and you've given us one possible answer is not Can you, but why would you Like why would you look at a series of books and be like, I'm gonna read the fourth one. Right? Well, maybe it's the only one available in the library. because that's what This one m make sense. You got yourby You got your liby holds in and one of them came in by surprise before the other before the first one did Or you want to stir stuff up in your book group. right and be seen as a contrarian oddball. respect. Sometimes you just read the descriptions of all of them and one of them just sounds more fun to you than the other ones. so start with that one That's often the case. L Did you have any favorite series books when you were Coming up growing up. I was a big babysitter's club fan as a little kid. That was my first big thing Yeah. I was really think that was represented by Witer's House in New York City? The answer is yes Well, it was it was a huge influence on me. I was u It's so funny because that series is really for like a particular type of kid who's really into responsibility and work and having a job. It reallyally funny, I never thought about that. I mean, yes, that was my introded introduction to that series was that it was represented by where I was working and That the it opened my eyes to the whole world of young young adult series books. We also did Sweet Valley High, so Babysitters Club. I knew people who were my colleagues at at at Writer's house would Gost write those books. There was a way that that They were not all in, Martin did not they were not all right one of them well. No, I don't maybe I don't want to malign Aunt Martin because maybe she did write every single one. I don't. But it's notc But I mean, it certainly was not uncommon or young people working and publishing to write Ghost write series. for for kids, whether it was Seet Valley High Maybe so just club Tom Swift in his flying lab. That's right There are a lot of horsey books, but that's interesting because I never thought about that that was a series of books for particularly responsible kids. Yeah, it's responsibility porn. It's like, I love this. It's like someday I'll have a job and responsibilities and I'll have to be in charge of someone's kids. I can't wait did I admit growing up as a only child rule follower who wanted to be older than his age. Yeah, that was Oh. You were so busy thinking about that flying lab you wanted to true. I wanted to have that lab in that Zeelin like Tom Swift, I should have been thinking about What snacks do I make for these kids? It was a series for kids that were researching colleges when they were like in grade seven, you know like which is exactly me, but yeah, know And those books always had usually the second chapter, I think would just be like basically the exact same chapter in every book that would just get you up to speed on all of the character. It would introduce you to each and every character. It' be like their first meeting of the book, like their babysitters club meeting. That was ag great. You go through each character Yeah, every series book should begin with a roll call. like know what I mean? It was exactly like you could skip that chapter if you were if you'd read a bunch of them. And yeah, I guess that was probably what introduced me just reading a series out of order because definitely with those, there were a lot of them and youd just grab whichever ones were at the library at the time I definitely wasn't read them in order John Your mention of Horsey Books reminded me something that I don't think about that much Red many Misty of chinkatigue books when I was a kid. Oh, including one That was not represented by wrriter's House so dead to me. But go on. I feel like these are probably came out in like the middle of the twentieth century. They were already a little long in the tooth by the time I read them in mid nineteen mid to late nineteen eighties But like there was a period in elementary school where like the school that I went to didn't have any like, let's say gifted and talented programs per se. Yeah. So they would just send me to the library for hours at a time. Yeah. Like they'd be like Jesse's Bardd and send him to the library and I just read I read like an entire shelf of Misty of Jinkatigue novels, these novels about orses horses on an island off the coast of Virginia. But one of them was just about a donkey Well, you love donks. I do love That's probably why I love miniature donkeys or donks to this day That's right. Yeah. As a Canadian person, you ever mess around with Anna Green Gables? Yes or no. Oh, yes. yeah I've never read any of them, I confess, but I have been to Prince Edward Island. And I have alive in there to aboutout reading. U yeah, it's it's a great book, the like the original Andree and Gables book is worth reading, you know, if you just read that one, that's that's good enough. but I mean They're all really good I read as an adult with my daughter, Gracie a few of the Little House on the Prairie books, which I did not read as a kid. Yeah, I did. And like the characters in that book as, you know White settlers in the West have some problematic positions. They fit with the characters, their character positions. but, you know U, but I have to say like I think I never read them as a kid because I assumed they were not for me or whatever. They're great. I was like really into them as an adult, one hundred percent. It was probably the number one book series about getting a single piece of peppermint candy for Christmas. Oh It's true. It madeade me really grateful for socks. When my wife who is a whole human being would read our daughter, who's a whole human being. And I've listened, and I'm like, yeah, socks are good I'm glad we have more than one room. I think that I'm still marveling at this eye opening insight about Babysitters Club. I need to revisit those You know, people talk a lot about, u TV show the Pit as being competency porn. And for me, that was a series of books about a burglar called Parker written by Richard Stark, who was the pen name for an A crime novelist who's written a million other things I can't remember his real name now, but That's just a series of books about a guy Uh burgling good burgling burgling real good And he and he never he never b you said goodood Burglar by the way. Good Burglar two came out recently. It's just and it's and you know, you think about like, u You know, there are certain books that are there to challenge how you see the world. and there are certain books that you read that are sort of like U give you insight into another time. And there's some books that are just there as Company as consolation, as a feeling of like, I get to be with these people again W them do a good job. which is I think, very valuable Yeah, I think that's how I felt about the Baby Sitters Club, that I was like friends with these characters and it was nice to revisit them. and I feel like people feel that way about the Game Changer series too. They're looking forward to the next book because they just want to spend more time with those characters and it's a nice feeling to be able to have characters that people feel that way about I would hope you enjoy spending time with those characters. Are they they must be quite real to you at this? They are. Yeah, no I have been enjoying writing them again But all of the characters the in the game changers universe, they must be companions to you to some degree. Oh yeah, they live in my head. They don't leave me alone. It's I remember, I think Fredrick Bachman said wrriting is the best way to make a living when you're insane by being insane because you just have people talking in your head all the time and that that's how I feel when I'm writing one of these books. That's amazing chattering away in there We got another one from our slash Romance books. You ready for this? This is from Hot takeake. Joy girl zer zero seven All right This is not even sometimes when it's a crazy Reddit name, you can tell that it's because the Reddit name generator. You know, like remember when AOL, when people just ran out of things and AOL just had to introduce a thing that put random words together and then you really knew someone was new to the internet if they had a random words AOL account R Uh Joy Girl zer zero seven. says she chose chosen. Yeah. she chosen identity and I respect it. Yeah. Okay Happily E afterfter is for my grandma Give me savage satisfying breakups in the last ten pages. Whoa. Interesting. D don't get resolved Apparently so. I mean, look Your beef is not with me. It's with Joy Girl zer zero seven herer name's right on this piece of paper Well, I don't disagree. It's just not for romance novels. I don't I'm not against that as a book, but It can't be a romance. Are there breakup romance novels Only if they get resolved, there has to be a happy ending in a romance novel. It's like a hard rule. And when you say resolved, do you mean that they like that they get back together? Yeah, I mean, it pretty it's pretty common in romance novels to have what's called the third act breakup which is kind of your your moment close to the end that feels like, oh no, how will they how will they resolve this? How will they get back together So something tears them apart then and then you resolve it. And that's very common in romance. People feel very strongly one way or the other about whether that needs to be in a romance novel whether they want it to be there Um, But yeah, I think you definitely have to resolve it. If it's a romance novel, it has to have a happy ending. That's like a promise you're making reader if you call your book a romance novel. I could see a world maybe in which you have a satisfying reading experience where two people who are together and shouldn't be finally break upp. an anti romance novel or like breakup porn Stories often are effective when they both satisfy expectation and then also change or survive expectation. Yeah. And when they do a little of both, it can be quite a great charge. But even if it's just satisfying an expectation You do have an obligation to do that to some Yeah I can think of I don't want to you know, I'm not going to say the title because I don't want to spoil anything, but I have read something where you believe the couple is the couple you're following for most of the book.. Then near the end, it's like, oh, that guy's actually terrible This is actually the love interest in the happaily everver for this person. so um I do like that. I thought that was very cool and different and pretty brave of the author But And I'll say the name of the book, Moby Dick or Whale by Herman Melville. I'll tell you probably my favorite Poirot novels are the ones where you get to the end and he's like Mel, I do not know. There's a lot of clues, but I canot put them together.ossortible to say and there's no way to find out. Goodbye. Well, off I go Tata. I think that is a good comparison though. Like a mystery novel can't be a mystery novel if you don't solve the mystery Even if you solve it in a way that's twisty or surprising or unexpected, in fact, that's often the most fun. But like if it's not So Yeah, it's like an open wound on the page. Yeah you pick up a mystery or a detective novel expecting the satisfaction of Yeah. We have to tolerate enough ambiguity in real life. Yeah. We want there to be A landing must be stuck to use a hockey term. I believe they stick the landing in hockey Yeah, when they do a ye snow cow. Yeah, right. exxactly. How many triple Lutzes are in professional hockey Not as many as there should be. What if someone pulled a triple letut in the middle of a hockey? That would be incredible. That'd be a book. You can you can do that if you want. I'm not going to write it Rachel, what's the highest level hockey professional I'm including players and others who has communicated to you, they enjoy the game changers. Well, I think I have to say like publicly, the commissioner of the NHL, Gary Betman, has said He watched the whole series and really liked it and so I would have to say him because he's in charge of the whole 's in charge hocke I'm talking about the boys Oh, okay Um, no hockey play like no professional hockey players that are men. have reached, but many female professional hockey players that reached out. and some yeah, including the biggest legends in the game. So that's been very thrilling for me our daughter, who's a whole human being in her own right, unnamed person, Hodjman, we'll call her is a huge fan of women's soccer and women's basketball, but I don't know that she follows women's Hockey, what are some of the teams and stars she should follow Well, Boston has a team and it's the Boston fleet and they are great And uh, Yeah, I mean, I really like are they like the are they are they like the Canadians or the Yankees on the nose No No, I wouldn't say so. I'm a fan of the Montreal Victoire, which I think the league is so new there isn't really that team hasn't emerged yet. There's no Uh, yeah, there's no, you know, kind of easy one to like because they they're legendary or anything like that. And I actually it's I mean, I kind of root for all of them at this point. It's not a huge. I'm just happy it exist. Maybe I should just say fun Forget about my daughter. What do you recommend? Wh team do you recommend I follow as a New Englander, I guess the Boston Boston fleet. I mean, New York's also got a team that could use more people, but it's because they play in New Jersey Um at the same arena theyre geters playout. Yeah not going see really problem. He's not going to New Jersey. That's the problem Um ye, I would go to a lot of G League basketball games if they weren't in a city of industry or something like that So yeah, that's the New York Sirens is the New York team Um, But yeah, they' There's eight teams at the moment. so it's still a very small. How long has the league been around?